BH...do you want to know sex details or not?

I am curious if you BH want to know about the sex or not. My W and I have had a good week. We had a decent MC session. Last night, we talked and she told me she will tell me anything except about the sexual part. But even the 1 question I asked, I did not get a direct answer. Some of the questions I have is about the sex part. Not so much the details, as thoughts and feelings. Is it wrong to wonder if there is something that I could do that she can bring from her A. If It is something that made her feel good, shouldn't I be privvy to filling that need? What do you think?

[ February 27, 2005, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: hurtnheart ]

If you really need to know, then she should tell you. It may be too early for her though and it may be too early for you. At some point, you may not want to know the details.

For now, I think I would concentrate on the recovery.

Yes, she should tell you. But you should make her feel safe doing it. Of course I'm not talking to much detail. But things like frequency, type, location ... planning.

Otherwise you are starting out your new M with more buried secrets. And worst of all they are secrets that your WW and the OM share. It is thier little secret. In your own mind maybe you even imagine that it is thier special secret, something that they share with each other. It would be hard to feel safe if you can't know everything you want to know.

It is also very disrespectful for her to think that you don't have a right to know, or for her to substitute her wants for your needs.

.

[ February 27, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]

I wanted to know details too (he never told me, moreover, he never even admitted A itself!!)

Now, from this time distance... Why??
We know what is sex, we know all those 'sex positions', we must know how much excitement someone can have with a new person, hidding, passion, 'grass is greener'...

Don't we already know details without BS telling us about...?

BTN, I have read (both here and in other text)that men and women are different in respects to what they need during recovery and in respect to what they want to know.

HurtNHeart specifically asked for the BH perspective. I think she is looking to find what BH's think and need.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We know what is sex, we know all those 'sex positions', we must know how much excitement someone can have with a new person, hidding, passion, 'grass is greener'...

Don't we already know details without BS telling us about...?
<hr /></blockquote>I have to say that the answer is NO. This close to the issue of another person telling us what is important to ourselves. Don't we have the right to decide what our ownselves want or need. Whether you need it or not, or whether you deem it important or not isn't really the issue. And is disresptful.

This is how I feel. This may not be how everyone feels. However anyone else feels, then they're needs are totally valid to me. But it does not make my feelings invalid.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tom Joad:
[QB] BTN, I have read (both here and in other text)that men and women are different in respects to what they need during recovery and in respect to what they want to know.<hr /></blockquote>Isn't the essence the same?

Yes, all cases are individual, yet each of them is so typical...

Don't want to threadjack HurtnHeart's thread.

This will be my last post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BTN says:
Isn't the essence the same?
<hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure what you are talking about in relation to the quote you posted of mine. The essence of what?

However, I get the impression that you are somehow trying to convince me that I my feelings are invalid. That what you need or feel is how everyone else should feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BTN:
Don't we already know details without BS telling us about...?
<hr /></blockquote>Well ... No. Unless you are a mind reading psychic. How could you know? You can assume .. but perhaps you are assuming something wrong. Then your feelings, are based on lies and misconceptions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BTN:
I wanted to know details too (he never told me, moreover, he never even admitted A itself!!)
<hr /></blockquote>Something is wrong here. Your WH never admitted A, never admitted to PA contact? But according to your previous quote you "know" without any verification from him or any other source. What do you know that is not based on what you "imagine" is the truth?

Anyway.

HH your feelings and needs are completely valid. Your reasoning is sound in relation to meeting her needs. As well as meeting your own.

Good luck.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tom Joad:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />BTN says:
Isn't the essence the same?
<hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure what you are talking about in relation to the quote you posted of mine. The essence of what?<hr /></blockquote>You wrote:
"BTN, I have read (both here and in other text)that men and women are different in respects to what they need during recovery and in respect to what they want to know."

Yes, men and women are different in.... but, in the essence, they need the same...
What's so unclear here?
If you think different, it is fine with me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />However, I get the impression that you are somehow trying to convince me that I my feelings are invalid. That what you need or feel is how everyone else should feel.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, no! Your feelings are not invalid!! (Where did you get that from my posts??)

What you need or feel is NOT how anyone need or feel.
But, in the essence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , don't you feel and need like all of us feel/need - love, respect, loyalty, to be convincted by our WSs that our WS made a big mistake and they are aware of it, that they do love us and want to make M work, that they never felt so ggod with OP as they did with us, and they would never cheat on us againetc, etc.??

No, dear, I think this didn't really hurt you... but kind of painful truth in my words...

BS's Denial...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tom Joad:
Something is wrong here. Your WH never admitted A, never admitted to PA contact? But according to your previous quote you "know" without any verification from him or any other source. What do you know that is not based on what you "imagine" is the truth?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, most of it, for he never told me. (Yes, some things I learnt from others later on, but yes, most of what I "know" (still) is what I imagine...)

I don't need to be 'a mind reading psychic' in order to know he wanted sex with her badly, and in those moments nothing else mattered to him, neither our son, nor myself...
Details? I said and it's truth - I needed them too, but - the picture is the same...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hurtnheart:
Is it wrong to wonder if there is something that I could do that she can bring from her A. If It is something that made her feel good, shouldn't I be privvy to filling that need? What do you think? [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Nothing wrong with that. You should both fill HNHN.

Go back in the time you met, and she fall in love with you.
What did you do that and have not been doing it in your M?
Of course, this should be modified by changes all of us have over a longer period of time (we liked someting 10 years ago, but now we like it a bit differently...)

TJ, feel free to continue, although my questions were primarly for BH, I always look for both sides, you can learn from both. That is what these threads are for, "HEALTHY" discussions, and perspectives. I don't think it is a thread jack if it pertains to something in the discussion.

BTN, I agree the essence is the same, but how we preceive this is different,Men see things differently then Women. Although in the end it might end up the same, we rationalize it different. This is not a bad thing, it is just the way we are wired. The reasons I want to know certain details may differ from yours, but if they come to the same conclusions, isn't that kindof the same essence?

I would like to hear different perspectives from BH thoughts, simply because that is what I am. But, I do respect the perspective of anyone involved in this A crap. Everyone's right to their own feelings and thoughts cannot be judged by any one person as valid or invalid. Just different perspectives.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hurtnheart:
BTN, I agree the essence is the same, but how we preceive this is different,Men see things differently then Women. Although in the end it might end up the same, we rationalize it different. This is not a bad thing, it is just the way we are wired. The reasons I want to know certain details may differ from yours, but if they come to the same conclusions, isn't that kindof the same essence?<hr /></blockquote>Thanks.
Yes, definatelly.
E.g I think that men are hurt more by just that physical part (is OM better lover than me? can he have intercourse longer than me? is he more potent than I?), and women are more concerned about emotional part...
IN GENERAL.

Well, I said just my opinion (and it shouldn't be considered invalid, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
Hope you'll get more valid opinions from BHs, moreover hope your M will be rebuilt and better than ever.
All the best.

I was one of those BS that needed to know everything, I mean every little detail from, Did she scream with delight to Did she kiss his neck...

I made it clear that if we were to work this out I wanted to know everything and no detail was to be hidden.

Now 11 months later, and 8 weeks of living apart she has come clean with every detail and every lie and every secret..

So yes...I think we should know everything...

MSchluter, I don't know that I want all the little details, to me, those are just incidentals due to the scope of things. I know how she is sexually. I am curious about how long, if he was better, more comparison issues than any, and if I can do something different for her. As for the kisses and things, well, that is just part of sex. The passion I imagine her having eats me.
I am just curious what other BH's think on this.if it is a requirement towards recovery. thanks for your 2 cents! Maybe someday I will know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ... don't you feel and need like all of us feel/need - love, respect, loyalty, to be convincted by our WSs that our WS made a big mistake and they are aware of it, that they do love us and want to make M work, that they never felt so ggod with OP as they did with us, and they would never cheat on us againetc, etc.??
<hr /></blockquote>Yes that is what we all want. However, how we get there may be different. I truely enjoyed your above quote, and it really is what I would long for from my STBX. But she is not on the same page as me, she still resides in the old life, one a can not go back too.

Like I said though, I enjoyed the quote and all it implied. However this was not a thread on what we were seeking, it was about how much information a BH should expect about the affair. Withholding anything is disrespectful to the BH, and if the BH used that information to hurt his FWW then he has violated the rule of protection.

[ February 27, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]

hurtnheart

<blockquote>quote:<hr />MSchluter, I don't know that I want all the little details, to me, those are just incidentals due to the scope of things. I know how she is sexually. I am curious about how long, if he was better, more comparison issues than any, and if I can do something different for her. As for the kisses and things, well, that is just part of sex. The passion I imagine her having eats me. <hr /></blockquote>Well IMHO thats exactly what I was referring to. I also needed to know if the OM was Bigger and Better then me and if maybe there was something He did for her that I could do..

Bottom line is: My FWW told me that He had never made her orgasm and that it was all about him as is for most Om's.. She told me that He was not better then me just newer and I did not understand that at first but I do Now.

You see for a WS it's not that the sex is better it's just that the person they are with and have strong feelings for makes it seem better.

Every detail helped me in this way and with a few LB's and a few trips to the bathroom to get sick..I felt better. I am still a long way from recovery and so is my FWW but we will plug along and one day find we are now on the same track.

[ February 27, 2005, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]

TJ, sorry it took so long, I was gone this afternoon.

Mschluter, At first the size thing crossed my mind, but really, it doesn't matter, because That is something I cannot do anything about, I know me, and,well, I don't need surgery or anything! so I quess more power to him if he is. (I don't hate the guy, I don't know him from Jack Sh*t. but as a man, I have no respect or tolerance for that weak of a Man!! Not to say I have alot of respect for the wife, but I have a vested interest in her. He was just a pawn in my wifes state of mind that evening. He obviosly had issues in his marriage, I told his wife about A so He can worry about his M, not ours.

I understand the new thing also, I suppose if I ever got that weak and pathetic,(never happen! never.)I would have to many things on my mind to be into a OW.

love to hear more thoughts!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hurtnheart:
 MSchluter, I don't know that I want all the little details, to me, those are just incidentals due to the scope of things. I know how she is sexually. I am curious about how long, if he was better, more comparison issues than any, and if I can do something different for her. As for the kisses and things, well, that is just part of sex. The passion I imagine her having eats me.
I am just curious what other BH's think on this.if it is a requirement towards recovery. thanks for your 2 cents! Maybe someday I will know. <hr /></blockquote>Her willingness to tell you everything will go a long way in restoring trust. She can't restore the trust she broke if there are secrets between her and the OM to which you are not privy. She does not have the right to a secret life that excludes you. You are her husband so you should know MORE about her affair than does the OM.

You need to know all this in order to recover and rebuild trust.

I had to know all of the details. I still do not believe she has given them to me completely...but that may just be my mistrust talking.

Was for three main reasons.

One) For her to begin earning my trust again. Knowing how humiliating that sharing those sorts of intimate details with a third party(me) gave me the initial thought that there was something to be saved between us.

Two) To know exactly what I was forgiving

Three) To begin to desensitize myself to the reality of what went on between them. I had the mental movies, the "wondering how I measured up"...all of the things that we betrayed fellas seem to have. I knew the only way I would get past that was to accept it ALL, and incorporate that knowledge into my thoughts. Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt for the acts is preferable to the shock and pain that was so prevalent before(and still hits from time to time, though less often and less intensely the more time passes).

I do not regret being so adamant about knowing EVERYTHING. I only regret that there was anything to know.

-OAK

Oak - your comments are spot on! Spot on. Plus I think BSs want to feel the hurt (god knows why?) but they want to take the hurt to the very edge of their sanity and wallow in it until they're sick to death of it. And boy do we have a high tolerance for hurting ourselves with those details. Two yrs on average of beating ourselves up.

The details belong to the marriage. If a WS wants privacy they should exit the M. If the WS is willing to share the details with the BS they allow all of what happened to be part of the couples shared history. No secret corners for either partner.

I think every details needs to be shared (if the BS wants every detail) - because it demystifies what happened and it opens the way to insight and understanding of what happened to the WS - and it eventually helps the BS. Though it takes a long time for the BS to see it that way. The BS needs to know the bottom line - to decide whether to stay or go and decide how much to invest in that person in the future. And as for making it safe for the WS to fess up? I think the WS should show courage in facing the aftermath of their cruel and selfish behavior. It's the least they can do. They were a coward in their infidelity - let them show some strength of character in their quest of forgiveness and trust. I guess they have to stop thinking about themselves and start putting their BS at the head of their priority list.

an

I have made love with Squid thousands of times. I knwo what she looks like during sex. Ihave seen short-arsed old blonde men in teh gym. I know what they look like naked.

Its not the sexual details I crave but the WILLINGNESS for Squid to tell me. Her willingness to overcome her embarassment( or whatever it is that inhibits her) and tell me what I ask.

I HATE That OM will have ANYTHING of Squids that I do not know about.

Ironically OM has given his GF every detail and she in turn has passed it to me.

I probably know a lot.

It more important to ME that Squid tells me the times and dates of their liasons so that she can face the fact that she manipulated me in to babysitting, paying for her and OMs meal and the motel they screwed in.

THAT is as bad as the sexual betrayal to me. THAT neds a lot of workfor me to recover from.

It sounds like you're after a male perspective but, what the hell! I don't crave sexual details - I don't feel threatened by the OW sexually. We are sooo different - and there lies the crux of a huge part of the attraction. In the words of Monty Python "And now for Something Completely Different". Unless they've had orgies, S&M, or a 3-some, I've done it with him. When we were at our best, we had great sexual compatibility but we had cooled off and the rot set in. He may well have experimented with her but I know my own boundaries and if that's what he wants, he's welcome to it. I completely understand if someone does want to know but to me, that creates a competition. Maybe I'm a bad loser! TT

It is important that your WW be open to answering any aspect of the affair you wish to question and hear. If it is complete details then so be it. If it is only time, and place, then thats alright to. Each man is different in his need to know.
I do know myself that if I do not ask a question I feel I need to know my imagination will fill in the blanks and God only knows what that may end up looking like.
To sight a real example....
I was and still am curious about their sexual forays at the motel room. I have not asked since it is only a curiosity not a need at this point. Because I have not asked I assumed when my wife sat down next to me on our bed and pulled me backward to initiate love I stood up and said "not now". My actual thinking which I told her later that she must of done the same thing too the OM! Come to find out she never did but my imagination told me they did.

So bottom line, if you feel it is important to know the details then ask. If she is unwilling to provide them then she is being selfish or extremely embarrassed and does not realize you will never really get beyond it if she holds the answer back.

SM

[ February 28, 2005, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: SilentMisery ]

I am one of those who is going to have to know every last detail. Why? Well, there is this great thread by Noodle (aren't they all?) where she talks about the need to kill the itimacy that still exists between the WS and OP. When the BS is informed, the intimacy ceases to exist. It will hurt, but that is the quickest way to true healing - cauterize that wound with a hot poker.

I would do a search and post the link, but I am tired and off to bed....

TM

Personally it's all about hearing the truth. I don't really have a need to see how I size up, or if he (they) were better - I've always given my wife all I have to give driven by my love for her. If somebody else is better there's nothing I can do about it, and if that's more important than all the other aspects of our life together I guess I'm just s*** out of luck.

When I ask her for details; as strange as this may sound I'm basically asking for intimacy... for her to share her secrets with me no matter how painful. I'm asking her to show me that she trusts me in a way that will help me learn to trust her again.

I'm asking her to place her heart in my hands just as I've placed mine in hers.

I'm asking her to come back to me completely - without reservation.

I know that no matter what happens I will never have 100% trust in her again, but I'm working for 99.999, and the faith she can place in me by openning her soul and baring all - for me - is an important step down that road.

From a BH's perspective, I don't know about this and it's one of the issues I'm struggling with. My W had at least a 10 mo EA/PA going on, I think I know most of the times/locations (incl while I was away on my ship (military duties)) but not the intimate details. I've probed in asking but she says she doesn't want to say to protect me from that. She does say that it was great b/c it wasn't reality and b/c he was better than me (ouch!). I've imagined their times together and it really bothers me, I think the truth would bother me too, b/c I know what it takes for her to give herself to someone and how fulfilling it is!
The flip side to not pressing the issue and asking for the gory details is: a) She's in NC now and I don't want her to think fondly of those times, and b)The A was the work of the devil and so too are these jealous feelings in me. They are only self-destructive and I think they won't help recovery, can only hurt the relationshhip that we're trying hard to restore. When my imagination starts wondering, I try to put it on the shelf but it's probably something I'll address in MC.

Me BS (40) (mil officer)
WW (37)
M 14 yrs
D-Day 1/19/05, working on recovery
2 great kids B(11) & G(8)

I'd rather stick a dozen sharpened pencils in my mind's eye than to hear that part of it....or any part of it anymore.

Really.

- Kimmy

Thanks for all the responses. It is nice to hear different views. Every one is different in thier resoning, but all are primarily looking for the same thing. I guess I really just want the openness of her willing to try to share. I do not force the issue, I just ask questions that I need answered not the ones out of curiosity.
We had a breakthrough the other day, and she answered 1 question for me, now I am trying to digest it before moveing on. She has said from the start, she will not answer any sex questions, so this was a big step. I also look more at the physical/facial expressions to her answers than the answer itself. It is sometimes easier to tell how she is feeling, by action more than verbal.
again thanks.