Hello, this is my first actual post but I am a long time lurker. About 4 years ago I was involved in a EA/PA with a coworker. The PA lasted about 4 months and then the OM broke it off. I was devastated but I decided to come clean and confess to my H. After I confessed we really tried to work on our M and do date nights, etc. We attended a Retrouvaille and it helped me in that it made my H open up and tell me his feelings. He's not usually the type to go into detail about his emotions. Anyway, our M seemed to be doing Ok and we seemed to be getting closer for the first 6 months after d-day. Then it seemed as though our M went back to how it was prior to the A. The problem is that my H never initiates anything in our relationship. What I mean is, when we were doing date night and stuff, I was always the one to do the "research" to find a nice, new place to eat and places to go afterwards. I sat down and told him that it was important to me that he show interest so I didn't feel like I was the only one attempting to work on this M. He can sit and play his video games for hours on end and spend hours researching the newest video game on the internet but when it comes to doing things for us, he never seems to have the time or interest. So, anyway, our M slipped back into the place it was prior to the A.

Then, stupidly, a few months later I found myself involved in my second PA. I remember reminding myself how painful it was the first time around with withdrawal and stuff but I justified to myself that I wouldn't fall in "love" with the new OM and that it wouldn't be painful to end it this time. Well, that was 3 years ago. The OM is married also and he is actually in the process of a divorce. I have tried to break this relationship off many times over the last 3 years but it never happens. My H doesn't know about this new A and I'm not sure that he'll stick around if he does find out. I am not opposed to telling him about it, but I just want to understand a few things first before I tell him so that I will be better prepared to deal with the withdrawal and stuff.

I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what it is about me that is feeling the need to be involved in these A. The things that I can come up with are a lack of self esteem (although outwardly you wouldn't guess that) and a need to have "drama" in my life. I don't know if this makes sense or not. I am now a stay at home mom and my real life seems so boring and so uneventful. The A brings about a fantasy life that seems to be so much more fulfilling than my real life. I know this fantasy life isn't real but I am so scared to end the A and then go back to my boring, real life. I know I probably sound like a whiny baby saying that, but I'm just trying to be honest. I tried counseling awhile ago but it never seemed to work. My H isn't interested in going to counseling with me and he just doesn't seem like he realizes the severity of the problems in our M. He is too laid back when it comes to fighting for our M and I have tried, many times, to tell him that I need this from him.

Currently, I am in the process of trying to end it with OM once again. I feel that this time is a little bit different in that I really feel exhausted by the whole thing and ready to move on with my H and see if we can make this M work. Like I said, I'm a stay at home mom and the hardest thing for me is that I get bored during the day and have WAY too much time on my hands and this is when I break down and tend to contact the OM. My H works in a job where I'm not able to call him during the day when these urges strike. I really want to get out of this A and figure out what the heck's wrong with me. Is it possible that someone can be addicted to drama? One of the counselors also told me once that because my H and I have been together for such a long time (since I was 16) that I never had a chance to date and get that out of my system and so now I'm trying to do what I missed out on. I don't know, I guess that makes sense. I am 29 and my H is 33 and we have been M for 7 years. I love my H but I feel more like he is a friend, then a lover. I don't believe this is the fog talking because I felt this way when we got married as well. I remember on our wedding day feeling scared that I was making the right decision because I wasn't sure if he was the "one" for me but I didn't want to hurt his feelings because I did care about him and I thought that eventually the "love" would come. I know I sound so greedy and I am. That's why I'm here, because I feel bad about my actions and I want to turn my life around.

I know this is a long post and it's probably jumbled and all over the place but I really hope that someone can help me figure out what's going on with me.

Thank you so much!

kmt,

Rather than focusing on what's wrong (finding excuse/blame) for your behavior ... could you tell me what do you really want ?.

-rh-

RH-
First I want to say Thank you for taking the time to post to me.

That's a difficult question because I have asked myself it a million times and I don't know if I ever really came up with an answer. I guess the thing I want is to feel towards my H the way I did the OMen. I don't understand why I could so easily feel these "in love" emotions for them when I don't really ever remember feeling them for my H. I know that "love" is a choice and I have tried to get those feelings for my H but maybe I'm not trying the right things? I know that the R with the OM were based on fantasy and lies and not real life and I know that's what gave them their appeal but I wish that my real life had more spontaneity and excitement than it does. I have tried to get my H to help me find these things and he will initially but then it just goes back to the way it was. I love my H but I would love to feel those "in love" feelings for him. I know this is a typical WS line, but I feel that it was there before my A's. The thing I want is to have a happy life with my H and to feel that he cares as much about making it work as I do. I just want to feel love/lust/passion towards my H and I'm not sure how to go about getting it when I question if it was really ever there.

Editted to add: I don't know if this makes sense or not but I find it easier to feel "in love" with my H when he's not here. What I mean is, when I'm away or he's away I find that I feel more in love with him and confident that he's who I want to be with. But, when we are together again, it seems like these feelings disappear.

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: kmt ]</small>

the real question is do you want to be a cruel person...because that is what your affair is..

it is cruel to your husband...
of the most disrespect one can visit on human being....

and you do it....

and that's who you choose to be....
inspite of his video games
inspite of all his failings...the route you choose will never ever fix it...
and you choose cruelness...each and every day for years now....

cruel to your husband
cruel to the OP and his spouse
creul to all children involved...

our actions define us..
it makes us who we are no matter what we say in empty words what we believe in..

no one can help you fix the marriage till you end contact with the OM....
a house divided can not stand...

so all this stuff about feelings is meaningless..it's all empty words...without any actions that serve the marriage....
as long as OP is in the picture....nothing no one here can do....cause you can't work on any of it till you are committed to doing so..
and no one here can make you commit to that..
and no one here can give you any garuntees...


ARK

kmt - I'm curious. Does your H know what you are looking for (deep inside) and is he investing significantly in you? Or maybe worse, could he be involved in his own E or P A's?

Has there been abuse in your past?

Ark, I know that I'm being cruel to my H. I know that what I'm doing is selfish. I know these things in my heart but how do I convince my mind? I am not an unfeeling person. What I mean is, I DO feel guilt for the A's and how I've disrespect my M vows. I want to change and I want to end my A with the OM. I know that noone else can do it for me, I have to do it. But, how do I get to that point? I'm so scared to "give up the OM" only to go back to my old life. I really have tried to talk to my H about what our M needs. I have tried to meet his needs but when do you get to the point that you're tired of doing all the work and getting nothing in return? I want to end my A. I want to be a better person. Tell me how to get to that point. Tell me how to stop being scared to go back to my old life.

Rocked-
Yes, my H and I have in depth talks about what we both need. We did alot of in depth communicating at the Retrouvaille. But, after a few days it just goes back to how it was. I am almost 100% sure that my H isn't involved in any EA or PA. He is accountable for all his time, he never does anything questionable and to tell you the truth, I think that an A would be too much "work" for him, if that makes sense.

Still here-
No, there hasn't been abuse in my past. However, both OM were older than me (20 years) and I have tried to think why I would choose OM that were that much older than me. I had a good relationship with my Father, however there were alot of times in my younger childhood when my father wasn't home. He used to drink alot and go to the bars and stuff but he wasn't an alcoholic. Him and My mom never really seemed close- I'm sure because there was alot of resentment on my mom's part due to his absense. My father flirted alot and my mom questions if he ever had an A during those days when he was absent, but he denies that he did. My family is pretty religious and like I said, I have always felt close to my parents but I do think that some of my father's behavior when I was younger may be contributing to this? I don't know, maybe I'm somehow subconsiously trying to re-live my childhood through these older OM? I don't know, it's all so complex.

After you talk about what both your needs are what happens? Do each of you try to meet those needs? I do agree that before you can move past where you are you have to end the contact with whomever other than your H. Otherwise, your needs are getting met elsewhere and you are forced to look to your H to meet those needs himself.

Rocked-
It gets better for awhile, my H shows interest in wanting to be proactive in saving our M but then he sees it as too much work and he has every excuse in the world as to why he doesn't want to do it any longer. I know my H loves me but he thinks that M shouldn't be any work. He thinks that all is fine, even though I've told him it isn't. He just seems to think that it'll get better on its own.

I agree that I need to have NC and I'm working on that. I know that I have to not have my needs met by anyone other than my H and then "force" him to be the one. But, I did this after my first affair and nothing changed. What can I do differently this time to make it stick?

Have you tried a swift kick in your H's groin?

sorry. you set me up for that one!!

kmt,

You have come to the right website. Please read the basic concept then read the general welcome. Understand well MB, this is the key to your happiness.

If you wants to feel lust/in-love with your H ... you have to end A with OM, put NC and call his wife to apologize. Your H never have a chance as long as OM is around. You have to fess up to your BH. No real realtionship could be develop under a shadow of a secrect.

Get counseling from MB or cerri to help both of you out.

-rh-

Hi, kmt.

Let me ask a simple question if I may.

What made you think that you had a right to an affair(s)?

Thanks,
Gimble

So you've been married for 7 years and having affairs off and on for 4 out of the 7.

Why did you get married in the first place? And why did you bring children into this awful mess?

Flabergasted,

Miker

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Lisa V. ]</small>

KMT
I can totally relate to what you are saying. I have felt the same way.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Lisa V. ]</small>

Sorry I was away from the computer for awhile so I didn't get a chance to respond until now.

Rocked- Yeah, I would like to try a swift kick to my H's groin sometimes to get him to listen to me, but I know he doesn't deserve that either.

Redhat-Thank you for your words. I know that I have to end this with the OM and I AM working on it. I am scared, which sounds stupid, but I am trying to get to that place and I know that I will be there very soon because I'm tired of living this double life. I am ready to be done with this A. Please know that I am trying to take baby steps here to end this A. I am scared to go back to my real life and I am trying to take baby steps to show myself that it'll be ok.

Gimble- That's a good question and I have to say that it's never that I thought I had a "right" to have an A. It's more like it just sort of happened. I know it was the easy way out- rather than trying to continue dealing with my M, but it just sort of happened. I think the 2nd A happened to try to numb the withdrawal I was having from the 1st A. I know that sounds ludicrous (?sp) and it's much like an alcoholic trying to numb a hangover by drinking vodka. I never thought that I had a right, I was just stupid and weak and I fell for temptation.

Miker- Yes, I have been M 7 (almost 8) years. However, I have been with my H for 13 years. I understand your disgust, believe me I understand. I am just as disgusted with myself for getting in this situation and now I'm desperately trying to find a way out. I know the first step is NC and like I said, I'm trying to build courage to finally be able to let go of the OM. It's a scary thing for me to go back to my real life after hiding behind a fantasy life for 4 years. I know what I need to do and I'm trying desperately to find a path to do it. You asked me why I brought children into the M when all this was going on. I know, it was a stupid and greedy thing of me to do. But, in all honesty, I guess I was in denial and I never thought that my M wouldn't work. I guess I just took for granted that my M would always be here and that I would just enjoy my fantasy life and then, eventually, I'd figure out how to make my M work. Stupid thinking, I know. But, I guess I was just in denial. I certainly don't regret my children. I love them with all my heart and that's a huge reason why I want my M to work. I see what my H and I created and it makes me love my H in a way that I didn't before.

LisaV- I'm sorry that you can relate to me, although it makes me feel good that someone can understand what I'm going through. I hope that we can find a way to connect with our H's again and get them to open up and help us to be pro-active in rebuilding our M's.

Thanks again to everyone for your help. It may sound like I'm in denial, but I am very aware of what I need to do to attempt to get my M on track. I came here because I do want my M to work. I love my H and I know he deserves ALOT more than I'm offering him right now.

If you feel that by being a stay-at-home mum, you get bored and have too much time on your hands, why not get a job. Your children will be better off with a busier, more fulfilled mother as currently, you are doing a great deal of harm to your family. Try it.

TT- I would love to get an outside job, but for one thing we can't afford daycare for 3 kids and the other thing is that these A's happened when I was employed outside the home (before I had kids). This is why I think that it's more about what's wrong with me then just about an over abundance of time. I don't know that I'd be any more able to occupy my mind if I was working as opposed to being at home. I guess I'm just to the point where I don't find pleasure in anything anymore. No matter where I am or what I'm doing or who I'm with, I just don't feel happy and thoughts of the A are always there. I need to find a way to escape my own mind, it's just driving me crazy.

Thank you for your post.

KMT

kmt,

I really hope that your BH would understand and work it out with you. Please send him to this web site so that he could have support here.

You have asked the right questions and your worry is legit. When you end this A ... what would gurantee that you won't do it again. I think this was missed by many here who had replied and sent 2x4 on your way. I know you want to do the right thing.

You definitly can't do it on your own. You need to end A and change your addiction to your BH instead of OM. You need to be held accountable w/ your time, money and emotions. That is when you have to be honest w/ your BH and let him help you out.

I could not stress the important of having coaching. There is MB weekend seminar coming up at my town, you could start from there.

-rh-

"It is not about the mistake define who you are but what you do afterward."

It sounds like you are a sensitive woman who is really confused. I think I can relate a little. My WW is emotionally confused too. She was not as fortunate with you since she had a lot of abuse in her past (emotional)

The answer to your happiness is within you, not with those other men. I think the best explanation is that the EA/PA is like a narcotic. There are better ways to find happiness in life.

I'm sure the people here can help you find what you need.

SIS

So from what I gather from your posts...the most important thing and person in all of this chaos is you....

it's just all about you...

you know what you are doing to your husband is wrong..BUT
you know what you are doing to ALL the children is wrong BUT....

but what if...
but what if..
that's what you use to keep yourself repeating such hurtful behaviors....

because you want garuntees..

well there aren't any...
you are chasing the elusive butterfly...all in the name of someone out there garunteeing that you will be fullfilled by your marriage....

but what we do know...
is that NOTHING
and
NONE OF THIS will change till you break contact with the om...
but your response...
classic..

I want to change and I want to end my A with the OM. I'm so scared to "give up the OM" only to go back to my old life. I really have tried to talk to my H about what our M needs. I have tried to meet his needs but when do you get to the point that you're tired of doing all the work and getting nothing in return? I want to end my A. I want to be a better person. Tell me how to get to that point. Tell me how to stop being scared to go back to my old life.

so you just let your feelings keep dragging you down the same road...

all this is of YOUR exact creation...

YOU hold sole responsibility for what you have created through your actions...NOT through your feelings...
yet to turn things around you are perfectly content in waiting for the FEELING to change to move you...

There's some irony in your frequent laments that your husband doesn't change...yet you yourself don't change either...any time you feel neglected bored stagnated by marriage...you pick the affair route.....

I will not coddle...
I will not tell you that you can have some wondeful story book marriage.

I will not skirt the issue that until you go no contact nothing in your marraige WILL change...

and I will not skirt the issue that YOUR own actions of the affair that can lead to the divorce of your marraige in which your children beocome those forced to visit YOU on weekends and split their holidays...
parents becoming visitor in their own home...
and have step mommies and step daddies thrust upon them...total strangers...etc etc etc...
should scare you way way way more than a husband who you turn away from each time the going gets rough....
you bring such potential chaos close to your children's homes to the very place they lay their heads down.... that they stand to risk each time you contact he OM..that their world of security will never ever be the same again....

that should scare you more than anything kmt..
you can lose your children over this...


this is all of your creation
we humans make life harder and more complicated than it ever needs to be...

your husband
your OM
none of these people are responsible for your happiness..
you are
you always have been....

yet you continue to seek others to fill places in you they can not fill...

you find the strength to go no contact because you let go of the feelings
and the fears that you use to justify and rationalize...
and you get in control of those things you can control and you move from there...

you don't use baby steps you do it..
and KMT..you are addicted to the feelings..because you feed in to making them so much more grander than they are...

take the same energy you steal from your husband and family and put it there....
and you might just see the changes you seek...

you are NOT a victim
you are NOT a martyr...

you create this...and ONLY YOU have the power to end it...

ARK

Redhat- I just wanted to say thank you for not 2 x 4ing me, even though I know I deserve it. I want to go to a MC, but my H isn't interested in doing that. I have tried to get him to come here and read but again, he's not interested. I'm not trying to put all the blame on my H because that's not the case, and he is a good person and a good H. But, I just wish that he would help me to help us. I don't know how to motivate him. Whenever I bring things up, his standard reply is: Well then go find your studly man who will make you happy. I don't know why he says this, maybe I'm just being stupid and he can sense my distance. I'm sure he can, I just don't know how to proceed in terms of him. I know that NC is the next step and I am doing this. I have actually been 2 days NC and I don't think it's really hit me yet that I'm in NC but at least it's 2 days further than I was 2 days ago.

I'll post more to Ark and SIS later.

kmt,

I fully understand where you are coming from. However I suggest you to get counseling anyway b/c most of the people here dealing w/ un-willing spouses. With 4 gifts of love you could bring intimacy back to your M life.

Do you know what his top 5 ENs and how he likes it fill ?.

-rh-

I'm sorry I had to leave my last message like that, but we had company over today and they arrived just as I was typing my post.

SleeplessNSeattle- I'm sorry that you have to deal with a WS and I am so eternally grateful that you are still willing to respond to my post and try to help. I know that I can't find happiness in anything material and that only I can make myself happy. I guess that's what I was doing with these OM, I was trying to find my happiness through them. The question I have is how do I find happiness? I mean, true internal happiness? Is it possible? I read somewhere that the only way that you can be truly happy is by finding your path in life, your purpose. So, if that's true, how do I go about finding my purpose? I want, so very much, to get rid of this empty feeling inside and to feel happiness and contentment. I know the OM has to go before I can even begin to start this journey, and I have been 2 days NC. But, after that, where do I go to try to find my life's purpose? Does it come through a close, personal relationship with God or is it found some other way? I am close to God, at least I used to be-it's hard to be close now when I see how I've pushed him aside for the past 4 years for my own pleasure and how that makes me feel so guilty. But, if it is through God, do you get it through prayer or is there some other way to find it? This is what I would love to figure out. I hope that I can fill this hole within me with happiness and then I can bring that happiness to my outer world and be content in this life.

Ark- Ouch, that post hurt but I needed to read those things. I know that I'm a selfish, greedy person and it hurts really bad to see it in black and white. I guess it's easier to deny when you don't confront it but when you see it in black and white it's pretty hard to ignore. You're right, I'm focusing too much on me and as long as I do this, I'll never be happy. Ark, you say that I'm putting too much importance on the feelings from this A. I know that. I know that I'm addicted to the feelings that I feel while I'm with OM. I know that it's not about the OM, but it's about the feelings. You said something that really stood out to me: "YOU hold sole responsibility for what you have created through your actions...NOT through your feelings...yet to turn things around you are perfectly content in waiting for the FEELING to change to move you..." This makes me see this whole A in a way that I haven't seen it before. You're right in that I am waiting to feel something BEFORE I act, but those feelings will never come UNTIL I act. I guess I never really realized that what I'm waiting for to end this A (happiness, reassurance, etc) will never come until I do end it. So, maybe I'm really stupid here or maybe it's just the fog but where do I get the courage to do it cold turkey? I know I need to do this before I can even begin to get the things I want in my M, but how do I change my thought process so that I'm not focusing on finding reassurance before ending my A? Does this make sense?

You said: "you find the strength to go no contact because you let go of the feelings
and the fears that you use to justify and rationalize...
and you get in control of those things you can control and you move from there..." This stands out to me too, again I'm seeing it in a different way. My question again, though, is where do I find this strength to go NC and let go of the feelings and fears? I did it once, when I ended the 1st A and I failed miserably and was focusing too much on MY feelings and how I wasn't feeling fulfilled and that ended me in another A. So, how do I change my thinking this time after I end the A and not focus on how I'm feeling? How do I ignore the loneliness that I feel in my M? I felt it before the A's but I chose to ignore it and seek it from someone else. So, this time, rather than ignoring it how do I look at it straight on and fix it when my H doesn't seem willing or interested in helping me? I know that I sound like I'm all about me right now but is it so much to ask to want to feel fulfilled with your S?

Anyway, I'm probably just rambling right now but it's so difficult to put all these feelings down when they're rushing around in your brain so irradically. Thank you, Ark, for the swift kick in the butt. I needed to read those things, even though they were painful. I needed it.

Redhat- I tried to get my H to fill out the EN questionnaire but he never got around to it so I really don't know what his top 5 needs are. I have asked him before and he says that he doesn't really "need" anything and that he's happy with how things are. He says that he wouldn't change anything about me, that he's happy with me just the way I am. I appreciate him saying that but it doesn't really help me to figure out what I can do to change so that I can help get his needs met. He's just so laid back about everything, he really doesn't want to change anything in our M and that makes it hard. I think that if he were a little bit more "critical" at least it would give me some idea of where I needed to start to make sure that his needs were getting met.

KMT

kmt,

Guess it. Fill in the ENQ as if he does it for you. The order is not important since you need to do all top 5.

After you figure it out, you could verify his his reaction when you do 'em right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kmt:
<strong>Gimble- That's a good question and I have to say that it's never that I thought I had a "right" to have an A. It's more like it just sort of happened. I know it was the easy way out- rather than trying to continue dealing with my M, but it just sort of happened. I think the 2nd A happened to try to numb the withdrawal I was having from the 1st A. I know that sounds ludicrous (?sp) and it's much like an alcoholic trying to numb a hangover by drinking vodka. I never thought that I had a right, I was just stupid and weak and I fell for temptation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What 'just happened' is you allowed yourself to seek out inappropriate attention from outside your marriage. Your marriage was not meeting your expectations, and you began to feel entitled to get those needs met.

Nothing 'just happens' kmt. There is always a choice involved. You chose to get involved with someone, that relationship became inappropriate. You could have chosen to stop before it went further. Not only did you not choose to stop the original behavior before it was too late, you eventually chose to make the same choice again. A mistake, yes, but a choice. There was no accident. Nothing 'just happened'. You chose - twice.

Facing what you really chose to do in the beginning of the affairs, is a good first step in facing the choices that you now must make.

You now must choose to never contact the other persons again. Not for any reason, ever. Period. That is how you define closure.

As for rights and expectations, your husband has a right to the truth - all of it. His expectation is that he will get that from you. It is an expectation that you must meet, otherwise, you may find that he some day comes to the conclusion that you can't ever be trusted. He is unlikely to want to continue in a relationship with no ongoing trust.

I wish you all the best,
Gimble

So, maybe I'm really stupid here or maybe it's just the fog but where do I get the courage to do it cold turkey? I know I need to do this before I can even begin to get the things I want in my M, but how do I change my thought process so that I'm not focusing on finding reassurance before ending my A? Does this make sense?

this is elementary to me my friend....
I got three young children that I brought in to this world..

I am responsible for them being HERE...and I'll be dammed if I myself am gong to do one thing that jeopardizes their right to a safe secure loving home....

This earth holds enough chaos and trajedy on its own that I see it as my job to do ALL that I can NOT to bring it to their door....

Picture the tables turned...
picture tonight while your children sleep in their safe warm beds in their home...that their FATHER the man they see as daddy...who protects them and makes things right in this world....
picture HIM your husband....bringing in to this home another woman..

picture him leading them down a path that destroys their home and leads them to a place where holidays are not a time of celebration at home but a time of chaos in which they have to choose and split their time to accomadate the happy feelings of their parents....

that they now are forced in to visiting dad
with his new girlfriend...

can you see it..
does it sound like fun for them...

children don't give a rats behind if their parents are happy with someone eles...it's not their job...

yet your actions place them square dead on looking down the barrel of that loaded weapon...

feel the chaos if your husband was investing his time and energy on another woman...
feel his heart beat as he stands to lose on your whim...............

that's how you do it..
you put yourself in other peoples shoes and feel their panic and pain....

This OM stands to destroy the very fabric of those children's stable life...
and you as the gate keeper let him in....

your own chidren give you all the courage ever needed in the world to face that...

your posts are way way to full of all the ills and failings of your spouse...
which none of it can be taken at face value...because all the complaining and concerns of what he doesn't do...is you taking time and energy to fix anything..is given to your OM...

how can we here even begin to address the reality of fixing YOUR marriage...when you have a third person in the marriage....

when rebuilding the marriage..both parties need boundaries...
you deserve boundaries and plans that when your husband shifts back in to complacency that addresses these issues......

you also have to really look hard at the realistic feelings of a fantasy relationship that do not exist in a REAL WORKING relationship...
that some "perceived needs" met in an affair are not tangible and real...they exist in a self created vacuum of secrecy....

you can't put the cart before the horse...
each of own our marriage...
they exist in direct relationship to our actions..
and your actions of taking emotion and energy create in your head a husband who justifies your actions..

our brains are powerful rationalizes and conflict avoiders...

it is not your marriage that is the unhappy part..it is your actions of dishonesty of your affair that block you from God felt happiness...

you do not value in action noble things in this world because you do act nobley....

none of this is meant to be creul..
are far as I am concerned it is fact...

it is the nature of the affair beast...

end contact no matter what you feel...and even INSPITE of your feelings
what other option do you have?

ARK

RH- I just want to say thank you for your encouragement. It's not always fun to read bad things about yourself (even though I know I need to read them) so it's always nice to read your posts because you seem very supportive. So, thank you for that. In regards to the EN questionnaire, I honestly don't know what his top 5 are. I guess one would be openness and honesty (and I"ve really botched that one up so I WILL work on that one, beginning with ending this A and then taking the steps to tell him about it). But, other than that, I don't know. He's not very aggressive about wanting SF, He's not really into doing anything recreationally (except play video games, which I've done with him but it gets old after awhile), He says that he would love me no matter what I looked like, He isn't worried about financial things, I keep the house clean but honestly he wouldn't care if it wasn't. I just don't know which one's he'd rank more important, since none of them (except the first one I listed) really seem that important to him.

Gimble- I know that I chose to get involved in these A's. I accept full responsibility for that. I know that I did the wrong thing and looked elsewhere (outside my M) to get my needs met. That was stupid to do and I didn't give my H a chance before getting involved in the 1st A. However, after ending the first A, I did go to my H and tell him what I needed from him and I asked him what I could do for him so that neither of us felt tempted to get involved in an A again. Things were going good initially but then it just went back to the way they were before. I told my H that I felt we were going down the same slippery slope and he just didn't hear me. I know that doesn't justify my A's, I'm not trying to do that. However, I did try- and I mean REALLY try- to help make our M better. I was the one who was doing all the work and he just didn't seem motivated to help me. So, I stupidly got involved in the 2nd A. And I know that wasn't the answer to my problems- in fact they only made my problems 1000 times worse- but I was so desperate to find whatever it was that I felt I needed, so I selfishly allowed myself to fall into the 2nd A. I know I chose my actions and I know that I have to be the one to choose to end the A. I am 3 days NC now, so that's good for me. It's just so lonely and I don't know how to get my H to really hear me and help me to help us.

ARK- I have tried to put myself in my H shoes and that is when I feel the overwhelming guilt of what I've done. So, why is it so hard to not put those thoughts above the addiction? I have thought about those scenarios regarding my children and, again, I feel overwhelming guilt. I see my children as innocent little beings and they DON'T deserve what I'm doing to their lives. They DON'T deserve to have such a selfish mother. I DON'T deserve them. I know these things but I can't overcome this addiction. I am having a really hard time tonight, I am having withdrawals big time and I just feel so incredibly sad and lonely. I love my children with all my heart, so why is this addiction over taking me when I should be more concerned about my children? Gosh, when did I become such a selfish person? I'm not trying to throw a pity party here, I'm just really realizing what I have done and how screwed up my priorities have become. I would never intentionally hurt my children, but that is exactly what I'm doing. Why then isn't that enough for me to snap out of this fog?

I feel trapped inside my body tonight. I feel such a strong pull to call the OM, in spite of how it's risking my children's welfare. I want to overcome this A and I'm trying really hard to. It's been 3 days but I'm crashing really hard tonight. I know this sounds like a pity party, but it's really not. I am just really really really sad and all I feel is emptiness inside right now.

I'm sorry for rambling........

If you call the otherman..\

what actions can he take to fix any of this...

what possible good comes out of talking to him..

does he promise to make everything right.
can he make anything right...

what would you say to him...
what

what you shoud do is go tell your husband all about the OM...
that would HELP the no contact

ARK

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

kmt..

I am not being flippant with my questions about what you would gain from contacting the OM..

I am being serious...
that you role play in your head what the contact would be...
AND
what the outcome would be...
and since you are so emotionally driven...and again that is not an attack or flippant..
but the reality is I have no emotions attached to your actions...
while you have all your emotions attached to your actions...to the point they have stagnated you...even while you engage in some internal battle of right and wrong...

role play it out..
and whats the real deal with this OM..
you say how bad you believe your marriage can be..yet for four years the route you have chosen is an affair...

is the pressure on you since he is divorcing..
is the plan to leave your husband..
is the OM clinging to you in the throws of his divorce..expecting you to carry that load as well....

start being truthful..

ARK

kmt,

This is the reason you need to get professional help and you should get it from MB or cerri. Not evey one could DoItYourSelfMBer. Specially when you are lost like this. You need to figure out his top 5 ENs.

Also you need prefessional evaluation of your H. He might be a dysthymic depress person.

Try to print ENQ and fill it to see what you could guess about your H' ENs.

-rh-

Hi, kmt.

Thanks for the response.

You said:
====================
It's just so lonely and I don't know how to get my H to really hear me and help me to help us.
====================

Step one is telling him the truth.

Don't you think that he deserves to know the truth? How can he really hear you, if you don't speak to him truthfully? Don't you think that he already suspects that you are lying to him, right now?

kmt, you know what you must do. There are a lot of people here, just waiting to jump in and help you, but you must start the process for that to happen.

I want to tell you something that you have already been through once, at least partly. The easiest way through the pain you have brought into your marriage, is to face it head on. You can't run from it. It is here to stay until it is dealt with. The sooner you face that fact, the sooner you start recovery.

The only hold up, is you. So, when are you going to tell your husband?

All the best,
Gimble

Ark- I have asked myself these questions a million times, yet I have always finding myself picking up the phone to get my fix. I know that I feel worse afterwards and I know that I'm only more lost then I was before, but I still compromise all that for my fix. There is nothing he can say to me to make it better. There is nothing he can do to make it better, and I know this. But, I still choose my weakness- my drug. I guess a crack addict knows that crack is bad for them and it's destroying their lives, yet they chooose to do it anyway. I am the same way, stupidly. I wish there was a "rehab" for WS's. I didn't know that I was this weak, in fact I always thought I was a strong person. But I have learned a much different reality. I am weak and I am ashamed of that. I guess what I'm looking for (due to the fog) is for my H to be able to provide me with the same "fix" that OM is, because then it'd be easy to say goodbye to OM. I know it's not about OM, it's about the euphoria associated with him. I have to find an inner strength to fight this. And it is now day 4, but it seems like it's been 4 months. This sucks, but I have noone to blame but myself.

RH- I printed out the EN questionnaire and I'm going to ask my H to fill it out the next night he's on call. I don't know if he will or not, but all I can do is ask. If he doesn't, then I'll do my best to guess like you said.

Gimble- The thing is, if I was going into this "blindly" (meaning, if I hadn't already been here and done this before) I would be more willing to confront my H and end the A. The problem is that I was honest with my H last time, I did confront the problems head on. The thing that happened was that I was the only one seeing that there were problems in our M and I was the only one willing to try to get to the bottom of these problems. How do I know that this time will be different? And, I'm not using that as an excuse not to end the A- because I'm already going down that path and I'm day 4 NC. But, how do I take the blind step towards my H (again) and not know if he'll help me this time or not? I'm just scared that it'll be the same as last time and if it is, I don't know where to go from there.

KMT

kmt,

I has helped addicts of hard drug and I have saw what A could do to any decent person. It is very similiar. You should read 12 steps of sex addict.

You have taken the step to admit what you have on your hand, that is a very huge step. Second you have admited you have no power/real control over this, that is a mile stone in you road toward recovery. You can't do it alone ... you have tried for 3 years. Now this is the time to bring MC, your H and MB community to help you out.

You have to put NC w/ OM, fess up to your H, ask forgivenes and ask his help to rebuild the M. You have the tools now to ensure that you and your H would have a fullfillin M. M fills w/ in-love and love feeling. As you see when you start focusing on fillin your H's ENs you will see his behavior would change too. At that time you start to train him to fillin yours.

God Bless you. -rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kmt:
<strong> Gimble- The thing is, if I was going into this "blindly" (meaning, if I hadn't already been here and done this before) I would be more willing to confront my H and end the A. The problem is that I was honest with my H last time, I did confront the problems head on. The thing that happened was that I was the only one seeing that there were problems in our M and I was the only one willing to try to get to the bottom of these problems. How do I know that this time will be different? And, I'm not using that as an excuse not to end the A- because I'm already going down that path and I'm day 4 NC. But, how do I take the blind step towards my H (again) and not know if he'll help me this time or not? I'm just scared that it'll be the same as last time and if it is, I don't know where to go from there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are no guarantees in life, kmt, none.

You can't know what your husband will do or not. Those are HIS choices.

What you have to do, is make YOUR choices. I am hoping that you will make the right one.

You can face what you have done now, and deal with the fallout. Or you can face it later and deal with much worse fallout. No one can force you.

You know what the right thing to do is. If you are wanting me to pat you on the back and tell you that everything will be alright, then you are wanting me to lie to you. I am not going to do that.

I will tell you that the quickest way through the pain, is straight through. If you want to prolong the pain, just continue to avoid facing the consequences of your actions.

Time to make a choice.

All the best,
Gimble

KMT,

So, in your recovery your H did not perform to your satisfaction in one or more EN categories.

Guess which MB principle you failed to carry out consistently?

Radical Honesty.

So, go on and tell me all about how you...and you alone carried this marriage..full weight..while your H sat idly by fully aware that you were miserable and desperate to the point of having yet another dalliance.

In fact, he knew that you had someone in mind..right?

In fact, he knew when, how, and where you and your current sex partner began to cross the lines..right?

I can only assume..'cause after all, you were all systems go on this marriage and recovery thing..all pistons firing..it's only because your H does not love or care for you at all that you are forced..FORCED to continue to degrade yourself in this way.

Do you see the disconnect here KMT?

Right now, you are an active liar. Lies are a way of life for you, and most of all you lie to yourself.

You tell yourself lies to break NC.
You tell yourself lies to rationalize beginning another affair.

You are telling US a few whoppers as you go. As you can see..your claims do not add up. It is impossible for you to have been marriage building..yet have your H completely unaware of what is going on in his marriage.

If you want a way out. Begin by telling the truth.

Noodle

so three pages of feelings..

but what is your plan..

when do plan to tell OM
NO CONTACT PERIOD
and
DISCLOSURE TO HUSBAND.

what's your plan...
cause no one here can garuntee anything..
or change or feelings
or give you some magic powder...

you gotta do this..
when are going to start?

are you now four days no contact with OM or did you contact/allow contact

ark

Hi KMT,

I just read your entire thread. I can relate, I understand that internal battle that seems to always be going on. i have been in IC now for a while, it has helped a lot. I have read here a lot. I have read books. I particularly good one is Breaking Free. (And looking that up has resulted in me finding Praying God's Word which i think i will go get now)

For me it has been about 5 months since i confessed all to my H. Almost 1 yr ago, i confessed the more recent and longest A. It took me 7 months to get the rest out, which included a very short A while we were engaged, another very short A about 5yrs into the marriage and then the fact that while the person I told him about 1 year ago was the main OM, i had slept with many others during that same time period including a good friend of the family or better said, a person we thought to be a good friend of the family.

I am glad I did, I have finally learned honesty in my life and no matter what happens from here, i want to keep that. I have also learned the meaning of commitment, something i never really fully grasped before. out of fear, i always held a little back and always made sure there was an escape path available. and i know realize, my M has been impacted all along because of this.

I also have a H that seems to not need anything from me, not need much from a spouse, he can be content on his own all the time. So I too had so many fears of having our marriage go back to how it was before. I don't know yet if it will or not because he has not yet decided if he can forgive my past and if we will have a long-term relationship still. i do feel confident at this point that our M can never be what it used to be. i have changed too much for that to happen. i feel better equiped to communicate my needs in a way that is non-attacking. And i have all the confidence in the world that if/when my H does decide to put himself back into the marriage, he will listen to me. I also have every intention in the world to keep his needs in the forefront of my daily thinking.

i must admit, i have been struggling this morning. posting to you is helping me now. I hope something I have written here can help you.

Karen

KMT,

Well, I read your post, and I understand you a lot, I feel the same. I had two post (Avoiding an internet affair, and Plan A, stop contact with OM, or something like that).

Sorry, my native language is spanish.

I was embarrassed of reply again in my post, because even all suggestions I was doing the same stupids things. In my cause I looked OM. Even I know this is bad. As your H my H doesnt put me attention, he loves watch TV instead of talk with me. And this A started as a frienship. This OM is like a drug for me. Im trying for last 3 months to stop contact. But I couldnt do it for more than some days.

If you could do it for your first A, then you know how to do it again.

Right now Im in the process of NC (its has been just 3 days, but for me is like a century) I admire you because you could do it.

And you are not bad, you are vulnerable, and confussed I think.

We are humans, and not perfect. So you need to DECIDE and ACT.

You deserve to be HAPPY, and stay in this stage is not healthy.

In my case, this time I erased all things that can make me remember OM. I erased my MSN (because my A was by internet). Today I was planning to look for him AGAIN!!!! but Thanks GOd that last friday I erased my MSN, and now instead of looking him Im replying this post.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think that our selfsteem is low. And guilty is a bad feeling. So lets do it. Lets convince ourselves that we are strong enought to leave all this mess away.

We deserve be happy, and our H too.

We need professional support. (someone suggest me that, some months ago, but I havent visit anyone conselour.

KMT keep in touch here, posting here is good, and can help you to find yourself you action plan.

Be persistent.

curly17 & KMT,

If you are a church goer, your church might have some support. In my church, my pastor is using MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... and I am one of lay conselors helping out.

The whole idea is ... you can't do it alone, you can't do the samething over and over again and you have to have support to hold you accountable for your actions.

curly17, you are taking the right step in throwing away any possible mean of contact w/ OM. You change your environment such that when you are weak ... you have no way of getting your fix. I hope you are open and honest with your H such that your H could help you out.

-rh-

Hi kmt -

FLT2M pointed your thread out to me. I've just skimmed through it, but if the theme is how to stop thinking about A and OM, I thought I would copy one of my replies to someone else this morning. (Sorry, I can't remember how to make a link).

"Just some food for thought - Immediately after d-day, my pastor (also our MC) suggested that I not even pray for FOM, because that kept my thoughts on FOM. Our feelings follow where our thoughts go. So, the theory is that if we change our thoughts, our feelings will change.

I vehemently disagreed with the pastor during those first few weeks, didn’t believe him, and I thought he was terribly mean. As time went by, though, (it’s 2 ½ years later now), I discovered that the theory really works.

Change your thoughts, and your feelings will change. We can’t change our feelings, but we can change our thoughts. It takes determination and time, but it is possible. You can’t help it if you have a trigger (see a car like his, whatever), but you can stop yourself from dwelling on it and letting your thoughts go further on the subject. Tell yourself, “Don’t go there!”

After I would have a trigger, and felt awful, I would ask myself, “How much of this am I doing on purpose?” When I was honest with myself, I discovered I could save myself a lot of heartache by changing where I let my thoughts go.

“Still hard to think of NEVER talking again to a person who meant so much and had so much impact.”

When enough time goes by with NC (including not dwelling on thoughts of OM), you will be surprised that even the above feeling changes. As the “fog lifts,” reality sets in and you will be able to see the A and OM more clearly for what they really were. It’s easier to recognize and admit the OM’s flaws, and believe it or not, he can actually lose his appeal.

I know what it’s like to want to stop thinking about OM and feeling like I wasn’t able to, but the good news is, I learned I really was able to. I would ask myself “Do you control your thoughts, or do your thoughts control you?” I wanted to be in control of my thoughts, not vice versa."

Anyway, hope this helps.

God bless,

Rose