Dear Lord.... I never thought I'd be here again. I'm a MB alumni. I posted on MB from '97-'99 after my WH's EA/PA. We finally moved 600 miles away in 1999 to get away from OW and to try to make a "go" of our marriage. This affair was after I know I neglected the SF area of our marriage. (although totally my WH's bad choice--I just take responsibility for setting up a situation that made WH more vulnerable)

We had a good recovery- It seemed like a second honeymoon for a year or two. Then we went back to a more normal existence, although with much more attention to meeting each other's EAs, including SF. Our lives became very peaceful and good, I thought.

For the last two months or so, DH started acting weird. My gut told me something was up, but I really had no concrete signs, none of the things I remember before. He rides to work with his brother every day, he was home at all the right times, no weird phone calls, no secretive behavior etc. I just sensed a distance. Shortly after I got the "gut" feeling, I did start seeing some of the classic signs. He started showing renewed interest in his appearance, working out, etc. Again, not totally unheard of, he had kinda let himself go physically, and had always been physically fit, so I thought it was a reasonable change. He had interest in shopping for clothes, but I couldn't figure out when he could be having an affair. He has (Since the first affair) been accountable for his time, and it all matched up. He did occassionally travel for business, but his personality was not (I thought) the type to have a one-night stand, so I wasn't concerned about that. His first affair was VERY emotional and involved, long before it became physical.

I asked him several times in the last few months, based on my feelings (without evidence), if anything was going on. He denied it. Several times. Well this week, he is gone on a business trip. He was going to call last night, and didn't. At 11 PM, I called him. Got his voice mail on his cell phone. I was not overly alarmed because I thought he might already be asleep because he is not a night person. I left him a sweet good night message, and went to bed.

At midnight, the phone rang. He had been out walking the streets, praying and wrestling with telling me the truth. I could tell immediately something was up. He said "Do you want to know?" And I knew. It was the same tone in his voice, almost a flash back to 1997 when he confessed the first affair. It turns out he had been praying for the strength to tell me the truth, and he ended up sitting next to a guy from our church when flying our for his trip who has great experience counseling. WS didn't even know him well, (they were not traveling together) but he took that as a answer to his prayer. He confessed everything to this guy, and he gave WS some tough love and perspective.

He proceeds to tell me that 2 or 3 years ago, he met someone in a bar on a business trip, they had oral sex, and exchanged phone numbers. A few months later, he went to the same town again, called her and it happened a second time. He went to the same town 2 more times, and he didn't call her. He ran into her on the third trip, and she said "Hey, I didn't know you were going to be here," yada, yada, and he told her he was trying to do the right thing, and that was the end of that. I never knew.

Nothing eventful for a few years. Then a few months ago, a woman he knows through work via telephone came to the area, and he had a group lunch with her. He was attracted to her when he saw her and they continued to talk. As we all unfortunately are familar with, talking and emailing continued. He swears there was nothing physical, not even kissing, and they only saw each other in person twice. Once in the group setting, and once for an individual lunch. He realized this familiar path he was going on and sent her an email saying he cannot talk to her anymore, except in a purely professional manner. He still has to call her to place orders occasionally. I don't know that they were "in-love" yet. He fessed up and told me everything he could think of last night.

He also admitted to some pornography viewing in the last year while I was out of town visiting family. I know for some couples that is not a big deal, but it was something we had discussed as being unacceptable in our marriage, especially hiding it.

I do think he came clean on everything last night because he has nothing to lose at this point by telling me everything, and everything to gain by being honest. He knows that is imperative, based on our first experience to recovery. He is contrite, he was broken, and said all the right things. He wants to work on things by giving me radical honesty about everything he thinks, is tempted by, and any situations he is in. He thinks that will keep him pure because secrets give birth to more secrets.

I am crushed, shocked, and don't know what to do. I slept hardly any last night and I feel physically ill today. We are Christians, and I know biblically I had grounds for divorce last time, but I always wanted to work on things. I know I could go the divorce route now, but I want our son to grow up with both parents. But I just don't know if I can trust him. I know I've not been perfect, but he would be the first to say, he has feelings of being "in-love" with me, he thinks I'm the best wife, and he doesn't deserve me. He thought the first affair was a result of our relationship issues, and these last actions were pure selfishness. He said he really has issues when an attractive female makes it clear she is attracted to him (hence the physical relationship 2 years ago) and he has the need to be Prince Charming with women who has issues. (The first affair and this last EA)

If you have read this far, thank you so much. I need the collective wisdom of this board. I am in such pain, I can barely cry because I feel sucker-punched. What to do? How many chances does a person deserve? How do you ensure this never happens again? He doesn't trust himself. I know we can set up parameters to help, but ultimately, as we know, there are always ways to get around things if you really want to.

Please help me. Am I a fool for staying? Can he be saved? and how???

oh jenni i am so sorry. this is all of ours worst nightmare.

he needs counseling right now---he has to work thru the why of his need for attention and kisa syndrome. is he willing to do that.....if he isnt i would be very leary....

Of course you are not a fool for wanting your M to work. Do you have new boundaries in place? Are you planning on MC? So sorry to for your circumstances but the fact that he confessed to me is such a good sign.

JenniJ,

Did he come clean on his own in the past?
Has he blatently lied to cover up things?

I wonder too how many chances one deserves. Some of the people here have been through several d-days.
I just went through number 2 myself.

Just from reading your brief story, it does sound to me like he truly wants to change. My H lied after he promised NC and apparently never intended to have NC. He just covered his tracks so I'd believe his A was over. That's why to me, lying is a big issue. The trust is dead.

I guess I didn't give any advice did I? What does your heart tell you to do?

Suzy

Thanks for your replies. I just feel so alone. I'm not ready to talk to even my friends face to face yet, so this is really helpful.
We briefly discussed marriage counseling and individual counseling. He said he would be willing, but he also said he knows what he needs to do and really feels that radical honesty will be the key to success for him to break the cycle of lies. I agree, but I also want to see him in counseling and taking "fixing things" seriously. The same for boundaries. I just don't know how much faith I have in boundaries. Ultimately, if he chooses to be deceptive, it's easy to do.
I just can't believe this is happening again after the HELL we went through the first time to heal our marriage. I feel angry that he abused my forgiveness. I feel sad because I don't know who this man is. The first affair I could blame on him getting caught up in his emotions and ignorance in what causes affairs and how they can sneak up on you. The one time PA is just beyond my understanding as a woman. And the recent EA had red flags all over it and he ignored them. Why? If this man I admired and loved since I was 14 can't be trusted, is there any hope? I don't even believe in the goodness of people anymore. All 3 OW knew he was married. I tried so hard to be a good wife to him, and ultimately it did not prevent this pain again. What hope is there??
I just don't know. I deserve to be loved the way that I love. This hurts so bad. I think the shock is wearing off and I'm finally crying for the first time.

Bump.. Anyone else have thoughts??

Pep, Orchid, WAT, where are you and the other old timers?

I wrote you a long response, but the system keeps logging me out.

This is one of my greatest fears. I will always look over my shoulder. It would be no different if I were in a new relationship. Once you have been betrayed, you always imagine this as a risk. It could always happen again. I believe your H is happily married to you. I believe that he is addicted to the thrill of the affair. The little extra he gets on the side is exciting and addicting. If he does like porn too, my guess is that he could have a sexual addiction. He needs IC. You both should return to MC.

I am happy that he told you. I would not do anything right now but think. RE your child. That is reason enough to stay if you can handle it. It is a fact that kids do better with both a mom and dad at home. Sometimes that is not possible, but if it were me I'd give it another shot. But hey, I'm catholic, I can't divorce anyway.

Let me just add that my Dad was a cake man serial cheater. He never left, is happily married, always was. He just liked the excitment and variety. Terrible. In the end, he's been married for over 50 yrs, they made their piece after the cheating mid life years and have shared many years of a happy monogomous marriage. It stopped when they finally got MC and got to the root of dad's issues. You could be the most perfect wife on earth, but some men have issues that have nothing to do with the marriage. That is hard for OW to face, they think they must be unhappy at home, but for the majority, that is not the case. They just want a little extra and we have to teach them that that is just not OK.

Alone? Heck no, look at the numbers, they had to up grade the server because there are so many of us. It is a cheating culture with a society that has broken down. Just look at TV.

OK-got to go. It will be ok once you get over the shock. He's just not finished with the IC. He has issues to deal with.

Hi JenniJ. You were here before me so you may not know me or my story, but then it's basically the same as most of us here.

I'm both sorry to hear you are revisiting that "pit" again and I'm ecstatic that your husband loved you enough to confess while knowing that you might not have it in you to forgive and give it yet another try. (This is similar to how we throw ourselves on Christ's mercy as we recognize just how totally unworthy and undeserving of forgiveness we are.....very humbling.....and very grateful for His great gift to lost sinners)

Only, in my humble opinion, through Christ and with His help is this possible. Alone, we don't have the strength, yet Philippians 4:13 gives us Christ's strength to face any challenge.




For Christians, the answer to your question was given by Christ to Peter. "Seventy times seven times," or as often as a brother in Christ repents and seeks your forgiveness.

Yet that's not exactly the same thing as "chances" when it comes to marriage, is it? A person can be forgiven for sinning against us, but we don't have to live with that person, do we? Adultery is sin that Christ is intimately familiar with as our God. It is particularly difficult to deal with because it IS a sin against our own body, our spouse's body, and the covenant relationship we have with God in our marriage. Christ KNOWS how hard it is for us to deal with this sort of betrayal. That is a primary reason why Jesus told the Pharisees that divorce was not permitted except for "marital unfaithfulness."

Having said that, God also hates divorce. While He may allow divorce for marital unfaithfulness, God would prefer that we forgive and rebuild as we center our marriage and lives on walking in humble obedience with him.




JenniJ, from what you have written, I think your husband's fundamental problem is a weak walk with God. Did he think God was not with him on those trips? Did he think that he could run and hide from God, ala Jonah? No, adultery is first and foremost a sin against God and if your husband has truly accepted Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit indwells him and goes with him everywhere.

So what to do? Without question joint Christian Marital Counseling is in order. I would strongly recommend that you consider a counselor who is trained in Nouthetic Counseling. If you'd like a link to find counselors in your area let me know and I'll post a link.

Beyond that, your husband needs an accountability partner, like the man on the plane. Someone who he can talk to, but someone who will not compromise on being obedient to God's commands. He needs a spiritual mentor. Obviously your husband has a marked weakness for women and is very vulnerable.

Therefore, extraordinary measures are going to be needed to minimize or prevent that area of temptation. Think of it along the lines of "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out....." I'm not saying literally "pluck it out," but I am saying that precautions need to be made a part of his life regardless of whether or not they make him "uncomfortable." To do less invites more sin against God and no Christian should WANT to open that door. If they do, they had better examine themselves to make sure that their salvation belief is real.




No, if you love him and trust God, you are not a fool for staying. Remember, I did NOT say that it would be easy, just that you are not a fool for trying.

"Can he be saved" is a loaded question. The answer is twofold if I understand your question correctly. First, he IS saved, IF he had a true saving acceptance of Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. If he only "said" he was a Christian, then he can be saved by confessing his sins, repenting of them, and asking Christ to come into his life as his personal Lord and Savior.

Second, "he," as in your husband and partner in your marriage, can be "saved" if YOU are willing to forgive him and try again. But only if he is willing to do whatever it takes and to once and for all make his "feelings" subservient to humble obedience to God's commands. If he is NOT willing to submit to the LORD, why would you think that he would be willing to be submit or be faithful to you?

Upholding you in prayer. May God grant you His peace and wisdom.

God bless.

Hi, JenniJ.

I am not an old timer, so take my suggestion for what it is worth.

Have you considered upping the ante?

How about a 6 month separation while he goes through intensive counseling to address his character issues.

Then you set a real boundary that you can enforce - if he does it again, the marriage is over. No more chances.

I believe that you are going to have to give your stipulations some teeth before you see real change.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi,
Just wanted to thank you all so much for your thoughts earlier. WH come home Friday morning from his business trip, and rather than go into work, he came home and spend the day with me. I don't know how to explain it.... We talked, cried, and reconnected. He told me everything about everything. I sense complete honesty from him for the first time in a long time. He said little secrets (lustful thoughts,feelings, etc.) led to bigger secrets and then he just went deeper. He bought me a new platinum band from Tiffany's (he went to NY for work) and wanted to offer it to me if I would have it. (Not wearing it yet..I'm trying to be cautious) He wants to work on things. He wants a daily accountability with me with him telling me everything and staying honest, keeping us intimate with each other. So I am aware of his struggles which will hopefully lead to keeping him honest. Besides the guy on the plane, he has also told another elder in our church everything so he can pray for us and keep him accountable. I can not tell you how sweet. remorseful, and caring he was all weekend...Although I thought we had a successful recovery before after the first EA/PA, he told me details of the affair and things, mostly with a sense of duty because he knew that honesty was an important key to rebuilding for us. Now, he feels it is important for HIM that he is honest. It is part of HIS recovery, and turning away from this sinful behavior. His thoughts are just spilling out of his mouth.. At times, I had to say, "Whoa, I need to hear some of this in pieces, it's painful."

As to earlier, when I asked "can he be saved?" I did mean that figuratively... I know he is saved (as in accepted Jesus as his Savior) I mean that figuratively if he could be saved from this behavior.

I also let him read the posts that were here, (something I never shared with him the first time) and your thoughts really gave me things to consider. He was pleasantly surprised as well. They were very perceptive...I just wish I had time to respond to each of you individually. Unfortunately, I must leave in a little while to go to the airport to pick up family that is coming to visit from out of town. (Yes, that was planned long before I knew what we'd be going through this week) So, I won't be able to post as much this week either. yikes... But the point of that was to say, one of the issues he was struggling with was feeling alone and crazy to be making these kind of decisions to ruin his family...still loving his wife. I let him read here to show him he's not alone. And even more amazing, he even said he was thinking of joining and maybe posting. Something I'm not sure he would've considered the first time.

Emotionally, I'm drained, tired, still somewhat numb. I could not ask for him to be handling it better. He already sent the latest EA OW a NC letter. He ended it before he got as deep as he did the first one 6 years ago. It was mostly flirtation emails mixed in with some discussion of thier lives, but it was definitely in the infatuation stage of early love. The PA/ oral sex from 3 years ago was not emotional at all. He has offered to let me read any emails if I want to from this EA(I know from the first time, not a wise idea, it's hard to get rid of those images) and so far I have not done so. He showed me a picture of the last OW...and I watched him delete it from the hard drive of his computer. He has opened his life to me like a book.

I'm rambling now trying to process this....I just wanted to update everyone and thank you for your responses and let you know I want to continue to seek your wisdom, please keep posting. I may be here off and on this week because of the guests we're having, but I will be back. We are planning on counseling as well... I'm pushing for Steve. This weekend we spend talking and healing. Didn't leave too much time for seeking out a counselor yet.

Still not sure about what to do. I mean, I love this man. I have been with him since we were 14. He was my first kiss. We have a baby together. I just don't want to go through this whirlwind to be back here in another 3 years because of his issues. Our counslor would've thought we were ready to leave counseling the first time, so it is no guarantee. Repeated adultry is something that I'm not sure you can ignore, even if you love someone and want to forgive. I just wonder if we can truly have a fresh start from here, not to have this threaten things again.

Thanks all of you. Please share what you're thinking. If DH shows up here, make him welcome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JJ

bump for my WH.... he tried to register yesterday is having some trouble... no reply from MB registration yet... He read here all day yesterday for the first time, including my posts from 1998 and the first affair. I think it gave him some insight into my pain and others' pain.

He has agreed to counseling with Steve. He thinks he may be "addicted" to the high of an affair, the mystery, etc. Anyone have experience with that?

If you're reading this, hon, thank you for meeting this head-on. I love you.

Wow, I can’t believe Im actually on here…and first, I want to thank all of you for your encouragement and support of my wife over these many many years, (yes I know, I put her in this position). And without a doubt, your words and this site are a main reason why we are still married and working on it. I am truly blessed to have her as my wife, but as many of you know, us WS’s tend to loose sight of the truth. Anyway, I will do my best to be honest an open in my posts. And most of all, I want to thank Jenn for inviting me into this “safe” place in her life. TTYL.

So H - what do you think is the problem?

What are you expecting from counseling?

What do you want to add/correct from what Jenni has said?

It is admirable that you are here and potentially ready to bare all. But facing us faceless strangers should pale in comparison to facing yourself and owning up to faults and weaknesses. Are you able to do this?

Well, sadly, I strongly suspect you will be back where you are now in a few years from now. I think your WH is definitely a serial cheater, and ofcourse he is sad....sad that he got caught. You will forgive him and all will be great for a while, but men like your WH usually have a very tought ime truly "changing". The "high" of an affair is real, but some men can only live without that high for so long. He has now cheated on you two times (that you know of) and you stayed with him with essentially ZERO consequences. Hopefully this time is different. SOrry that I can't cone on here with "support" and "prasie" for him now that he wants to get "counseling". It would be extremely disingenous for me to do so.

I am happy that you are in recovery "yet again". Best wishes with all of this. YOu certainly have my "good luck".

LM

LM- You may well be right. That is what I'm wrestling with now. I had a long response written back to you, but I'd rather give my H time to respond. He just IMed me... he is reading and wants to seek input as well and I think my purposes would be better served if I allow that to happen. I did want to clarify that he was not caught... what he just recently fessed up to, I never would have known without him telling me. Not that it makes it Ok, but he did come forward on his own. Also, I do feel there were consequences the first time, but I digress... Again, I want him to get a chance to tell his story and I'm not here to defend him. I appreciate your thoughts and input, I truly do.

WAT!!!!!!!!!!!! You may not remember me, but you were here when I was the first time. I have such respect for you, I remember your story well. I did more lurking than posting then. You were always good for a laugh during those dark days. I'm sorry to be here again, but hope you are well. Again, as I told LM, I plan to step back a little and let H tell his side of things.
Thank you all.

Hi, JenniJsH.

A couple of questions for you.

1) What is your plan for recovering your marriage?

2) What is your plan for restoring your wife's trust in you?

All the best,
Gimble

Hi guys, thanks for your perspectives and questions...I havn't tucked tail yet, by any means, and will answer your ?'s later..

Fair enough.

Note the responses so far are from guys. You can assume we are "regular" guys. As such, we have faults.

In addition to bellying up to the bar and confessing your faults, take the opportunity to describe your strengths and/or admirable qualities.

WAT

JenniJ's H,

i am not a guy, and i'm probably not going to participate much in this discussion, however, as you are a newbie and because i am someone who cheated multiple times, i did want to welcome you. you have quite an opportunity before you, to really make changes inside of yourself.

i also want to say, if there are posts out there that do not help you work towards your goal (which i assume is to be a healthier person so you can have a healthy and intimate relationship with your wife), do not dwelll on them. dwell on the ones that challange you to think and grow but not the ones that are not so helpful.

be aware, everyone here has their own story, their own struggles and that impacts what they post here.

people CAN change. i know this cuz i am one of those people. and MB helped me emensly, so did confessing and individual counsoling. miracles do happen here, don't let anyone or any post steer you off track, always keep in mind your goal.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ok, i'm done with my little pep talk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> take it away guys.

(WAT)So H - what do you think is the problem?

Well, Ive been asking myself that for 8 yrs now, and while I think the psycho analyzation is helpful, particularly for modifying behavior, it, for me anyway, only deals with the symptoms of this issue. I believe that we all have our vices, mine happens to be the flesh, and the self gratification that comes from winning the affections from another woman, and that, because emotional dependencies are formed, can be addictive. But the real issue here is that its just Sin, plan ole fashion selfishness, that separates us from God, compels us to break vows, hurt the ones we love, and self perpetuates this downward spiral that we’re all familiar with. A casual smile turns into a friendship (you want more) turns into flirting (you want more) turns into an admittance of attraction (you want more) sparks an outpouring of feelings (you want to trust those but isn’t that the biggest lie) endears the other person and in full bloom, your meeting each others needs……misplaced attention and affection, and it feels so good, but its still sin, with probably the highest stakes and most devastating consequences, but all that gets lost in the cloud, and then as all sin produces, in its full maturity, Death. Jenn hasn’t mentioned it yet but my first OW had an abortion, albeit without my knowledge at the time, I still share responsibility for that. So the problem is this, I make a choice, everyday, whether to live according to my desires, or to live a life honoring Christ in my marriage.


(WAT)What are you expecting from counseling?

I dislike the saying “been there done that” but I have sought the guidance from both secular and “Christian” counselors, and the advice that got me here today didn’t come from either…however, I have a friend whose wife is in my shoes, and they are experiencing sound damage control, and true healing from the instruction of a marriage counselor. But I also feel that Gods word holds all the answers for how to correct my waywardness. My problem, I don’t seem to have the self discipline to practice these things, and how to transfer this knowledge into action…….I hope to receive some accurate assessment and practical tools that will save this marriage. So, Im open minded enough to give it another shot. You know, Im a bit skeptical that im gonna hear anything new, but, we’re gonna give it a chance. The best tool that we’ve employed thus far, is me being totally honest with Jenn, about all of my temptations and shortcomings. I didn’t do this for the last 8 years, thought that I could “manage” my secrets, and obviously that’s erroneous thinking. So, Im still learning, but the tools were always there, Im just now finding the motivation to use them.

(WAT)What do you want to add/correct from what Jenni has said?

Nothing. She is the most rational person I know, now many of you are saying that’s not much of a compliment, but in a situation like this, her perspectives have been fair and accurate and although understandably emotional at times, concise. She is also extremely loving and beyond her own capability, forgiving, which comes from her walk with Christ. I may clarify details from time to time, but otherwise, shes the legitimate half of this marriage.

(WAT)It is admirable that you are here and potentially ready to bare all. But facing us faceless strangers should pale in comparison to facing yourself and owning up to faults and weaknesses. Are you able to do this?

Own up to my faults? Sure, Im a weak, selfish [censored], and Im willing to suffer the consequences of my actions…
The question is, can I change? I want to, that’s why Im here, I just need help.
FinallyLearning-T2M’s comments were very encouraging and Im sure you realize that we WS’s need support, may not deserve it, but need it just as the BS’s do.

(GIMBLE)1) What is your plan for recovering your marriage?

This is the summation I sent to the guy initially came clean with on the airplane…
We’re staying under the same roof, Jenn is willing to forgiven me, she loves me like no other, we are in one accord
I will commit to this because it is the righteous thing to do and because I do love my wife and son
My concern is that, despite all I stood/stand to loose, I willfully went down this road, repeatedly
I believe this may be an addiction to the high of temporary pleasure via adultery – this scares Jenn and I both
So this is our strategy:
Repentance – Done, and each time I stumble
Renew my mind, cleanse my heart – In progress
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Colossians 3:1-3 1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Colossians 3:15,16 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly
Will take 3 months to “recycle” my memory from non-marital sexual images and prayer that the Holy Spirit will erase the memories of my indulgences – In progress
Employ “Bounce” technique to avoid visual enticements – takes practice.(involves bouncing eyes off of attractive women or sexual images and not dwelling on them, giving way to lust….)
Total honesty to Jenn at all times - Rest of my life, unvetted access to email, activities, schedules, etc
Dedication to meeting each others physical, emotional, and spiritual needs – renewed fervor
Counseling with Steve Harley (marriagebuilders.com) – To be scheduled
We still have a decision to make, and Jenn is both a participant and referee. And the result depends on my sincerity in doing the above.

(GIMBLE)2) How do you plan to rebuild your wife's trust?

Total honesty, Ive always thought that I could bear my worst secrets in the archives of my mind and as long as she didn’t find out, it wouldn’t hurt her. Old adage says lies begat lies, little secrets give way to bigger secrets, its true and I can’t let that continue. I have to have the faith that she can handle the truth. So, I’ve offered her passwords to my email accounts and full access to the details of my life. I deal with the temptations daily, to IM or call the OW(s), to flirt w/ the cute girl in the elevator, to slip out to a strip club, to pick up a girl at a bar on a business trip, but I confess these things to her at the first opportunity. I can only hope that over time, and consistency, that this will renew her trust in me. But the fact is, right now, and probably for the rest of my life, I can never fully trust myself in this area so, I have a lot of communication ahead of me…

WAT, I appreciate your offering me a seat at the bar, and giving me the space to share in my strengths as well, but for now, I think it best that those become apparent over time. Im strong because Im weak and contrite right now. Hopefully strength will return to my character, I just wont claim to possess that right now. Thanks again guys and ladies…Ill always welcome you criticisms, thoughts, experiences, and encouragement.

"But the fact is, right now, and probably for the rest of my life, I can never fully trust myself in this area so, I have a lot of communication ahead of me…"

[color:"blue"]See, this is the part that scares the hell outta me, and many other BS's!!

First Jenn, God bless you girl! {{{{Jenn}}}}

This is such a rough place to be and your initial posts moved me to tears <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> See, I am a BW of a repeat offender, too! I was a MB alumni, had been in (I thought!) a strong recovery for almost 2 yrs just to have my H confess to a full blown EA/PA in Jan 05!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I was just like you... question why? what did I miss? how did this happen again? I felt like my soul had been ripped apart, unbelievable pain and anguish!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
I questioned so much... It was totally out of the blue, like some ripped a rug out frm under my life...AGAIN!

*BUT* there was also some strange comfort having been down this road before, too! When FWH started in w/ the ILher garbage, I immediatley recognized the fog. When he started talking about D and moving on, etc... I nearly rolled my eyes in exasperation!! So typical and I have heard it all before!

FWH & I are currently working on our M with a Christian MC/IC and trying to rebuild. H has not lived in our home for 2 months now, things got so volatile that our C suggested a "therapeutic separation"... I have invited H home but he has yet to do so, choosing to wait until it feels "right".

I do not know if I can trust him again, I want to think so, but am not sure. I commend your H for coming here, but I am also scared for us all who are in this "repeat offender" arena... what if?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You may relate to this feeling of I have of utter frustration within yourself for allowing yourself to be hurt by this man yet again...for knowing you are a strong and beautiful person who willingly put yourself into the position to be harmed emotionally and spiritually by someone that has failed before...all in the name of love!

I told him before "never again" and yet here I am!! The stakes are higher, the doubts deeper and the fears, at times, paralyzing! What a mess! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I know my H is scared that he cannot be faithful, that he will fail me again... these seem to be the leading conerns in his mind right now. He hurt me beyond belief, and hurt himself in the process... I think this is one reason he has not come home for good... I also know that I am unable and unwilling to stick around "forever" for him to figure it out.

At this point I pray that the Lord will lead me to be a better, healthier person. I also pray for H everyday... we have 3 beautiful children who deserve the best that we can give them.

I wish you the best, and JennJsH... if you are certain that you will fail her again, you owe it to her to let her know or let her go, IMHO. [/color]

Hi, JenniJsH.

Thanks for the thoughtful answers. I agree that Steve Harley can help your situation.

Please be careful that your "total honesty" is not brutal.

Quote:
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But the fact is, right now, and probably for the rest of my life, I can never fully trust myself in this area so, I have a lot of communication ahead of me…
===============================

I understand why this statement would scare TNT or any other betrayed spouse. At some point in their lives, preferably in the near future, they want to be able to relax just a bit, and let down their guard on occasion, and actually be able to survive the experience unscathed.

The way to fix that issue is to figure out WHY you are doing what you are doing/what you have done and fix it. You have to understand why it isn't good enough to you to simply notice the pretty lady at the end of the bar, as opposed to feeling like you need to do more with the pretty lady at the end of the bar than simply notice her.

With that in mind, I have another question for you, it will seem odd, and the answer may be really tough on you, and hard for Jenni to hear, so proceed with caution.

When you were involved with the other women, did you engage in banter with them that was disrespectful of your wife?

All the best,
Gimble

Jenn's H - I wish you strength in finding your self control. "Self control" is what I believe your issue is. Sure, there may be psychoANALysis available to determine the root cause, but whatever the cause is, it likely cannot be reversed. So you have to overcome it with discipline. You have to find the extra motivation to do the right things - the existing motivation wasn't enough.

Here's my recommended extra motivation: You fail and Jenn moves on. Three strikes and you're out. Period.

Jenn - this is imperitive for you, IMHO. For YOUR part, you have to adopt this stance and make it crystal clear that there will be NO MORE CHANCES. If you find that you cannot take the stress of always worrying and always holding a hammer over his head, you reserve the right to end it all at any moment.

This is where you both are. Not an enviable place. But I believe it can be successful. Honesty, self control, and the really good feeling that comes with being continuously trustworthy and always free of guilt will set you both free.

Good luck.

WAT

(TNT RN) See, this is the part that scares the hell outta me, and many other BS's!!

[color:"blue"]I know, believe me, it scares me too, it is the major hang up for me right now. Not having the guts to sadle up and make the "forever faithful" proclaimation. All I can do is commit to slaying this dragon one day at a time, first thing in the morning, and only looking at the day in front of me. and that may not be enough for BS but God, and I say his name as a prayer, not an exclaimation, God I hope that this is enough for now.[/color]

(Gimble)When you were involved with the other women, did you engage in banter with them that was disrespectful of your wife?

[color:"blue"]Yes and no, Yes I disclosed things, in the two EA's, private and sensetive details about my "un met needs", because OW (plural) bring those questions into the conversations, I think they're as curious as anybody as to why WSs are out there prowling around. And then the serial OW, I know all WS harbor evil in their actions, but that there are some women and men out there, that are totally given in to sinful sexual desires, that let themselves be used, and use this info, to destroy families and other people, out of anger and spite probably generated from abuse and neglect in their own lives..and there is every degree of WS in between the H/W that gets snared in an affair and those that go out laying traps....and im deviating from the subject... But No, I was never disrespectful of her in an intentionally mean way, I never bad mouthed BS to OW, In fact, in this last scenario, while trying to supress the inappropriatness of our relationship and cultivate a friendship (as Im starting to figure out, this is nearly impossible)w/ OW, I would often speak of my Love for my wife and family, and even praise Jenn for her patience and perservierance with me, with no alterior motives, go figure. But I can see, from reading some of the other posts, that many of these affairs have progressed to the point that WS, so mired in the foulness and blinded by the fog, become intentionally angry and hateful to their BS...and that breaks even my heart.

But to the both of you, I realy appreciate your correspondance w/ me. I think your thoughts and concerns w/ this situation are sincere and absolutely valid. In fact, I almost hesitate to even post, from fear of compounding my hypocracy, but I must believe that scum cant grow in the light of the truth, the exposure in this forum, and that some good will come of this. And lastly, I just saw, WAT's post, thanks again guys..I know your advice to Jenn is based on a first hand experience of the pain she endures, agony I won't pretend to comprehend, and heres the but, I would encourage BSs to continue to push beyond mortal limits and continue to forgive in the hope that reconciliation is still out there, in Gods grace. And I don't utter these words carelessly..I speak them from my own desperation[/color]

Whew! Well I'm back to give my 2 cents.

(((TNT))) Back at you girl. It does stink to be here. You work through this the first time, think you’ve got a good recovery going, you’ve slayed the giant, and boom…. The bottom drops out again. The first time you can just chalk up to a mistake he made, now I know it is a deeper character issue. Those seem a lot harder to know what to do… You don’t have a specific OW or relationship issue to fix. I have not been perfect, but I don’t think these last relationships were about me meeting his needs. I believe so much in MB, but I’ve struggling with that concept now. Granted, I can up the ante in meeting his needs, plan to do so, realize that I haven’t been perfect, but it still leads me asking the question, “Why?” Tnt, I will pray for your relationship as well. We are both struggling with what if again….I do NOT plan on being here again in another 3 years to deal with this again. All that said…God’s grace is sufficient, His love is everlasting and always faithful, and He knows our pain.

To answer WAT’s question re: H’s strength’s… thank you for asking. I do want to say, even though it sounds bizarre…. He is a good husband in all other areas. PLEASE NOTE: The A’s are huge, inexcusable, and more than enough to end a marriage. Terrible, terrible, terrible. And I am very hurt and angry about it. But I want to present a fuller picture of our relationship and life. None of us want to be judged by our worst mistake. He is kind to me in our day to day life, he is a friend who will drop anything to help someone in need, he is hilarious, and has the ability to walk into a room and talk to anyone and make them comfortable. He is an awesome devoted dad, spends time with our family, he is supportive of my hopes and dreams to try anything I want, and has a love for people. His baby boy just quivers all over with excitement when he sees his dad come home in the evenings. He is handsome, a generous and awesome lover. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He and I have worked with children in Africa who are orphaned due to the AIDs crisis, and he has wept with love and empathy for them…. And the best thing is, he would HATE me telling you this and he would never tell you this himself. He is a good man, very misguided in this thing he has allowed to have a real foothold in his life. I am not excusing his affairs, his lack of discipline, and his choices, but as with all people, he is multi-faceted. Yes, I still love him.

Gimble: thank you for concern regarding the honesty. It does hurt at times, but God is giving me strength to bear much more than I could on my own. H hears about it when it hurts….I don’t just say “yes dear” And I’ve made it clear that he must deal with that consequence as well. I just try not to take his head off about it…. Ultimately, painful or not, I’d rather have the honesty than the lies. Healing can take place when there is honesty… I think before I ask to know something…Don’t hesitate to bring up something with him here if you think it is important because of me. Let’s get it all on the table. I can learn from it too. One thing I’ve learned: I am a pretty tough lady. (With God as my armor)

All that said, WAT, it is interesting that you would bring up the three strikes concept. I came to that conclusion last night too. I expressed that to H. I’m still struggling a bit, but right now I feel that I have to give this thing “teeth”. I hate this but I can not be “here” again and he obviously needs a stronger incentive to really figure this thing out. We both strongly do not want our darling son to have parents who are divorced…. But I can not do this again. And you know what…. it’s not even because I can’t take it emotionally (although I don’t know if I could). It’s more of a conscious decision… I won’t live my life this way, looking over my shoulder, wandering if my H is being unfaithful again because I feel that “distance” again. I sense him not being forthright etc. I won’t have my son seeing that as his role model for how to be a man and how to have a marriage. That is not living as “one flesh” and it is not a marriage. It is not about me (yes, I deserve better, I think I’m a good catch, he would be abusing my love etc.) but it is NOT about me. Our marriage is about glorifying God, and that kind of marriage would not be glorifying God anymore. It is an abuse of forgiveness. He has to maintain honesty with me… Attraction that is brought to light is not likely to survive…. It eliminates the fantasy etc.

So… I’m rambling now….

My main concern at this point:
(Sorry dear, I gotta rat you out…Honesty is our new mantra, right?)
He has not contacted Steve or anyone else for counseling… I think he “knows” he should and it is right, but it deeply concerns me that he is not jumping on this more quickly… Again it is a matter of he thinks he has the “head knowledge” that needs to be transferred to actual doing. I think that he thinks counseling will just provide more “head” knowledge…. I think Steve can help…. Can you help me explain to him how?

Thanks so much for your support of me, and of H. It is a big step for him to be here and he was afraid (I think) he would not be welcome here as a WS, and I had told him he would be welcomed and you all would try to help, not blast him, and you have lived up to that. So thank you. Especially thank you for reading our LONG posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Old timer....

You may not be aware of this ... I am VERY harsh about multiple affair behavior.

Do you really want my opinion?

Pep

What was your screen name in 1998? Can you give us that link?

Susan

I went back and read some of your old posts. This is what you said on 5/14/01.



Not a good feeling to be back in this place again also knowing that he did it again right after he told you he never would.

Susan

Pep- yes, with a little fear, I say yes, I want to know what you think. I want different perspectives, both encouraging ones and more challenging too... Be nice.. I know you will. Feeling a little sad this afternoon..

Susan- Yes, I know. Sad, isn't it? I think he meant it at the time too. That's why I think he has no faith in himself this time as he stated in his post. I thought we really had healed (and I think he thought so too) and we were in a good place. We were getting along well, we were close, spending time together, the whole nine yards. I don't know what to say.

Something else H and I have discussed that hasn't been mentioned... This is not relevant to the one-night stand, but the 2nd EA. We did move 600 miles away to end the first intense EA/PA. We still have family there, and once he was there visiting and he saw first OW in Wal-Mart from a distance. This was in Dec. ('04) The first time in the approx 5 years since we left there that he has seen her. He did not talk to her, but he called me afterwards very shaken. He said he thought he was over her, but seeing her (Just that once, not even talking) stirred up a lot of emotion. It scared him enough that he called me shaken, and he also called one of his good guy friends who is like a mentor to him. Just a few weeks later, he met the girl he had the recent EA with.. their only face-to-face meeting. (Correction to my earlier post.. he only saw her once,in a group setting) All their relationship was via email and IM. It obviously can't be overlooked that there might be a connection there?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

There is nothing "nice" about multiple affairs. I have been trying to think of somthing "nice" to say, and I can't.

I can only be honest.

You say that you are feeling "sad" ... and that's as you should feel. (angry too) Nothing I say is going to change that.

Here's the deal.

In your mind, imagine that instead of your husband betraying you over and over and over again .... try to imagine that this is a girlfriend we are discussing. This is a girl friend who has lied to you, and has put your well-being at risk knowing how devestated you would be, put your very health at risk as well. She has betrayed your trust over and over and over ..... and she wants you to trust her "one more time" ..... and as your girlfriend begs you for another chance ... you start to wonder ....you start to ask yourself this question ..."Aren't I better than this relationship? Isn't my friendship, my time, my very life more valuable than this?"

If a girlfriend treated you with this much repeated disrespect and disregard for your wellbeing ... how much would you put up with before you made the decision that YOU are putting up with something that you should not put up with?

Just where is your bottom line? Where is the intollerable betrayal?

What is the point of repeated so-called-recoveries?

Is this girlfriend convinced that you have no bottom line of tolerable abuse ? ... Is she aware that you will continue to be her friend no matter how many times she pushes your face into the dirt knowing how painful it is for you .... but doing it anyway .... because it serves her needs to mistreat you.

How much crap would you put up with if this were a girlfriend?

Pep

PS

I believe your husband is sincerely "sorry" .... and I believe he is capable of future betrayals irregardless of how sorry he feels.

It's part of who he is.... as defined by how he lives. His choices define him, especially repeated choices in full awareness of the wrong he is doing.

Pep

Hi, JenniJsH.

Quote:
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... but that there are some women and men out there, that are totally given in to sinful sexual desires, that let themselves be used, and use this info, to destroy families and other people, out of anger and spite probably generated from abuse and neglect in their own lives..and there is every degree of WS in between the H/W that gets snared in an affair and those that go out laying traps ...
=================================

You are correct, Those people are out there, I used to know a few of them. I used to be one of them. They do love people like you.

Let me tell you something that you won't like, but I sincerely hope that you are going to think hard about it.

Stepping back into my old dead self for a moment.

If you were a woman, you would be an easy target. You would have the roaming eyes. Your type is easily identifiable. You are a 'grass is greener' type. Always looking for the better grass, across the fence, at the end of the road, over in the next pasture, in another person's back yard, you look everywhere for better grass.

Add to that a modest sense of adventure; that's where the thrill at a new conquest comes from. You won over another heart. Hang that one on the trophy wall.

You have obviously come across my type, the only difference in your quote is that I didn't set out to intentionally harm, I was even worse, I didn't care.

So, I am going to tell you what I learned while I was still a young man. The grass in your field, is the best damn grass you are EVER going to find on this planet. I don't care how much other grass you sample, the best grass is at home, in a place you are cared for.

I sampled grass in hundreds of pastures. How many do you have to try before you are satisfied with the grass at home? I almost lost the only person I have ever loved, and more importantly, the only person that ever really LOVED ME. Are you going to go down that path?

The way you stop doing what you have done, and what you will do again, is by understanding that the draw of the grass in the other field, is nothing more and has never been more, than an illusion, fueled by your own lusts. It was never real to begin with.

Do you really think that lovers on television love better than the rest of us? Do you really think that sex with the girl at the end of the bar is better than other sex you have had? Do you think that the other girl gives better conversation than your wife? Do you really believe that a porn actress gives better sex than your wife? Do you believe that if your wife did everything that a porn star does, that you would somehow be better or less tempted?

Illusions. All illusions. What you are chasing can never be found. It is time to face that fact head on. It is time for you to change your focus. That woman that still, even after all of this, calls herself your wife, has waited years for you to make a simple singular decision to look at your own pasture and actually notice just how good it really is. She is waiting on you to have a second look and take stock of all the ways you have been blessed, even though you have been too blind to see it.

So, how long will you chase the unobtainable and ignore the reality of what you have?

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble... I don't want to write too much because I want H to read your post and evaluate it for himself and I don't want anything I say to detract from it.... I just had to respond though. I am sobbing... possibly for one of the few times since he came clean. I've been very numb, but truth is powerful. It's scary, it's almost as if you know him. Wow. Your assessment is so right on as to his personality...Powerfully and respectfully written. Thank you so much for your input and time. I pray it will be as powerful to him as it was to me. I'm interested in your story.

Pep- I haven't forgotten you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I read what you wrote and I am digesting it. I don't know if I have it in me to respond tonight cause Gimble's got me all torn up (in a good way) but I do appreciate your thoughts... More later.

I'ld like to add more to Gimble's post by suggesting you read "Wild at Heart" Eldridge, a book which I found to be among the most practical I have ever read (thank you Pep).

I would also suggest you do something about replacing your addiction with positive activities which increase self-worth, ones that are challenging, rewarding to a healthy individual and which really do offer atonement to society and to your wife.

Such as building something (manual labor) for someone else that they need, repairing someone's roof, going fishing with your family, going mountain climbing (or hiking) to reconnect with nature and the true beauty of life, volenteering at the old-folks home, etc.

Praying and scripture reading is all fine and dandy but God loves everyone, even the sinners and even just as they are.

You need practical, eartly measures to fill that void. And any addiction needs to be replaced with healthy activity/goals.

My ex-fiance took that book to heart and also has been making what seems to be amazing strides in his journey to wholeness by following the examples above and in that book.

He has been physically and emotionally separated from me at my insistance since last summer. He no longer tries to get back with me in is old half-assed way. He doesn't try to get back with me at all anymore in fact, he is no longer sure of our relationship. And that is okay with me, because I see his growth. He is becomming a changed man.

He comes into town now, pays for a motel and does work on my rentals, yard anything he sees that needs to be done with no request for SF or anything else. He tells me it makes him feel good that he can repay what he took from my DD and I in this way.

He also volenteers to help others in fixing their cars, their roofs, building sheds anything he can do, and this gives him his much needed admiration. It also is his way of making amends for the incredible pain he has caused others, including his children and last three wives.

If he keeps it up for another three months (one year since I ended it), I might consider him a truly changed man and open my heart again.

BTW, I have it on very good authority (his kids) who are keeping tabs on him like a hawk and who he spends most weekends with now, helping them out that he has not been with a woman since last summer.

Pretty good for a man who couldnt' stand to be alone for even a night before. And one who needed the "high" of the chase to make him feel alive when his relationship/marriage became to dull and predictable.

Give this some thought in your plans for recovery because there is more than the recovery of your marriage which is needed here.

Good luck in all this, to you both.

Gimble and Weaver, (and ALL contributers on this thread...I didn't mean to leave anyone out)

Jenn and I are heading out for a weekend away, befor that I have to get some work done round the office. Thanks for your continued challanges and for being earnest...I will follow up Sunday evening.

JenniJsH

Hi, JenniJ.

I was wondering how things are going with you two.

All the best,
Gimble

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