Welcome. Since there seem to be so many of you right now, thought I would start a thread. Have you all read mortarman's posts?

An interesting idea so here I am. I have not seen the posts that I can remember. Could you provide a link? I am a BS but have been faithful to my wife since we started dating.

MM's posts rock...he's a smart cookie for sure.

I'm in how do I find mortarmans posts?

MM's can be found by clicking on his name and when his profile shows up click on show all posts by MM.

MM and many, many others have given good, detailed advice to many folks on here. He is also a poster child for how to gain custody of your children when your wife is in an affair. He and many others who have had the same painful experiences, will help you along in the process of healing your marriage and if that doesn't heal then yourself.

What is all of this.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (eyes rolling as Mortarman looks around)

Well Mort, it looks like a little tribute to your wisdom. It's kind of funny, last night my fiance (FHL04) and I where discussing the preacher's wife post. In our discussion, we made the exact points you related so well to her. But I must also say that your delivery was wonderful.

There are a few here on these boards whom I admire for their communication styles and wisdom, you sir, are one of them....

For all that you give and share, thank you.....(((( MM ))))

Thanks Bill. Really.

In His arms.

I have been married for eleven years and I have never approached another woman inappropriately either verbally or physically even when the WW and I were dating. I did not think it was very hard or that I was sacrificing anything. It seems like I am in the minority. I might become the biggest serial adulterer in the history of the country at a later date but I do not think so. How some people think and feel really escapes me.

So now we have a village elder on board and can reap the benefits of his wisdom. Hiya MM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What shall we talk about? I, for one, am sickened by the traffic this site sees. I had NO idea that cheating was so prevalent. What the HELL is going on? Are WE the crazy ones?

Hi guys. I was trying to get you all in one place. It is hard to watch you all over the board.

Here is a post I liked by a recovering WW, and Mortarman.

Quote:
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Gramn...(Thanks for your returned support...my H and I are working on our EN Questionaires right now...say a prayer that we are guided in the right direction)

Please don't get discouraged, stick with the plan, so far it has produced the exact results that the "vets" told you it would, you can't give up, keep forging ahead...if it were me, I would print out or just read and re-read MortarMan's posts...use the advice of others as inspiration, but it seems to me that MortarMan has "the other team's playbook" and is so adept at breaking it down for you play-by-play...glad to know that we had/and hopefully still have people like him in our military...God Bless the U.S.A.!

NOW, ARE ALL OF YOU "VETS" LISTENING?...I'm still so very new in my/our recovery that I'm afraid of giving the wrong advice...so please, if I do, let Gramn(and me)know...I really want to help, but I don't want to do more harm than good...

This is something that my husband did that worked on me...think it might work for Gramn too??? As the WS, you really are embarrassed/ashamed of your behavior once it is revealed(otherwise you wouldn't be hiding it, right?), but pride and all the other bad feelings that you are going through act as "blockers" for your "opening up" to your spouse(at least for me). My husband kinda of opened things up for me by saying, that he understood how our marriage was "ripe" for an affair to happen...he said that he knew that he had not been a "good" husband (he never mentioned that I had not been a "good" wife-though VERY true...he knew how fragile my state was).

Anyway, it was this environment that made me feel that I could begin to talk to him about what I had done(WSes are very self-centered, and love to talk about themselves and their super "unique" situations)...he opened the door a crack for me, held out his hand and slowly I began to reach for it little by little.

He also just left "Surviving an Affair" sitting around in the open without ever even suggesting that I read it...one night when I felt soooo...low, and was racking my brain for any way that I could ease my own pain, I began to read it of my own avail and my fog began to lift bit-by-bit...Baby steps in the right direction...Do you guys see something like that working for Gramn?

Gramn, I hope that God sees fit to use even a tiny tidbit of "my story" to help you in some way...I would be so very honored if He would use me in this way...if you have ANY questions about what the WW wife is "thinking" I'd be glad to shed any light that I can...but always check with the "pros" before taking any of my novice/possible fog filled advice. They are so right about this stuff...Affairs REALLY DON"T survive the light of day, no kidding!!!

One day I hope that your wife comes here to read as I have and is just as amazed as I have been about how very predictable the behavior that, trust me on this, she thought was so "unique" to her and her situation actually is...it's almost comical how identical that we all(WSes) are.

God is with you on this, and will move mountains for you if you let Him...take good care of you Gramn!

WWWondering


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Gramn, WWW is right on. While you wait (and do the things I listed before), you begin to seed the environment, just as she said. How? Well, first...no accusations. Everything is matter-of-fact. Pretend like you know "everything." Second, listen. Dont lash at her...let her speak. It is now that she will begin to talk, begin to spill out all of the things in her head. As she does that, you just say things like "Honey, I didnt know that...I'm sorry that hurt you." Or "So how do you feel about that?" Answer her accusations and denouncements of you with questions. She says "You were never there for me." You say: "Honey, I am so sorry you ever felt that way. I am so sorry that you have ever felt that way." Then...say nothing!! Let the silence be deafening. Let her become uncomfortable. It is i nthis moment that she will hear herself...and she will move to the next stage in her communications with you.

That stage is awareness. She begins to become aware of just how silly she sounds. She begins to have that embarassment that WWW talked about start to hit home. She begins to see herself as she really is...dirt and all.

But guess what else she begins to see? She begins to see a guy she doesnt quite recognize. She expected her accusations abd bile to be met with defensive words, and even with throwing the affair back in her face. She never expected the guy she is hurting so much to sit there and listen and to actually find sympathy for her. For the first time since this whole sordid thing started, she actually has one person she can discuss everything with. She has someone that understands her, and understands her life leading up to this (tell me if this doesnt ring true, WWW). Oh, she is mad as hell at you...no doubt. But she is also confused because the guy she is most mad at she begins to realize that she doesnt want to do without.

Ever see the movie "The Story of Us" with Bruce Willis and Michelle Pfeiffer. It is brilliant in playing out the mid-life issues of marriages. But what I wanted to hone in on was the end of the movie. Where Michelle, who has been pressing the separation and divorce...has that "lightbulb" moment. Where she can see clearly what she has...and what she is about to lose. So she begins a diatribe about how they have history, a family. About all of the little things she forgot about while she was lost in the negatives. She talked about how she knew Bruce had negatives...but dont we all. And that no matter who we are with, this will always be the case. As I have always said...if you find the perfect man or woman to be your spouse...dont marry them. you will only screw up their lives!! That's a joke...as you know.

Anyway, what I am trying to tell you (and WWW is telling you from one who is just coming out of this as a WW) is that your wife needs you. My wife even said a few days ago something interesting. I asked "Do you love me?" She said "Yes...but sometimes I hate you!" And said it with a slight smile on her face. And you know what? I can accept that. I can now accept that sometimes, I do not like my wife...and that is okay. And the marriage and family are okay if my wife is completely POed at me today.

Your wife will, as most WSs do...have that "lightbulb" moment. And who will have been there for her, to help guide her to that moment...even when she didnt want him to? That would be you!! Who will be there when the moment happens, and she breaks down in sobs that you never ever want to hear out of your wife? That will be you. Who will drop the hurt and anger atyour wife in a second to hold her and help her heal first, even though it was you that was betrayed? Well, it aint fair...but that guy is YOU!!

I talked about what God expects outta you. He expects you to die for your wife. To put her interests and wellbeing ahead of your own. Sometimes that means tough love. Sometimes that means just listening, when you want to unload on her. Sometimes that means forgiveness, even when forgiveness wasnt asked for.

I hope you are beginning to see this. Your wife is beginning to change. The person she becomes at the end of this will not be the same person that came into it. Neither will it be for you.

But guess who has the major influence in what she becomes? You do! From TopRope: "Sometimes the last person you WANT to help you is the ONLY One who CAN!" That is you, Gramn.

You know, during the affair, when my wife left me and the kids...I looked at my daughter (who is a spittign image of her mom) and just wanted to cry that her role model was such a mess. That my daughter would not have the woman my wife used to be in order to help her grow to be a Godly woman.

Guess what I think now? First, I think that my daughter has slowly watched a woman dealing with many "demons" in her life that were there from childhood. My daughter has watched over the last three years a woman come to grips with her sin, and begin to try to become who she should have been all along.

But added to that...if you ask my daughter who has had the greatest impact on her life, on her family and on her mom becoming who she is becoming...she will tell you that it is me. She has seen me a mess and ready to give up...only to step back up the next day and try again. She has seen her mom go off about me, only to end back up in my bedroom. She has seen a tremendous amount of pain caused by her mom on everyone in the family...and watched her dad defend her and keep her on that pedestal.

Your daughter is too young to understand. And years from now, she will forget the whole thing. But I can bet, when she is my daughter's age (11), she will wonder what could have been if your marriage fails. What will your daughter understand about what happened? What did her father do to save her family and protect her? How far did he go for her mother, to save and protect her?

Of course, should your marriage make it, your daughter will almost assuredly never know about this. But your wife will. And your daughter will grow up looking at your wife look at you. Guess what your daughter will see out of her mom? Guess what your daughter will hear as her mom talks about her dad. It is my guess that you will take on almost mythical proportions.

Gramn, since you are in the middle of the battle, it is hard to see the end. And in some ways, there will never be an "end." Satan will always try to tear down your family. You will always have to be on guard, be watchful for "wolves." You will always have to look out for your wife, and see to it that she never again feels so alone and in need of someone to rescue her. God gave you the headship of the family. Not yoru wife. With that power, also comes responsibility. If the wolves get in due to your negligence, God will not hold your wife responsible. He will hold you responsible.

Forget a lot of this equality stuff out there. Sure, men and women are equal in so many ways. But we are different. She isnt a man with different plumbing. She NEEDS you. She has no way to protect herself from this...apart from Christ and you. And Christ will use the chain-of-command to get thru to her.

The question now is...do you trust Him? As I said before, this battle is about you, Gramn. It isnt about your wife. Your wife is being torn apart by the Enemy, and so is your family. As I was...you should be pissed off about that.

As Mimi said...it is all about "man up." There is no one on this planet that can save your family. No one. Not Dr. Harley. Not your wife. Not your daughter. Not me. No one...but you.

And now that we have put all of that weight on your shoulders...how do you feel? If I am guessing right...you actually feel good. Because men are made and built for times such as these.

In His arms.

believer - what's the "purpose" of the thread?

In answer to your question about what I assume is MM's thread on "roles," I have read some of it, but not all of it.

But I'm unsure as to the purpose of this thread or the connection to Christian based posts (as in MM's thread) when the thread seems to be directed to ALL Faithful husbands, regardless of any faith status. So I'm looking for clarification before I inadvertantly put my foot in my mouth. I've had enough of that potential in another thread with another husband who decidedly did not like any mention of faith.

Foreverhers -

I just noticed that right now there are a lot of men going through the same thing. I will assume that any men that don't believe in Christian based help will pass that post over.

In our society I think it is much more difficult for men to reach out for help with their marriage. So I guess the purpose is to help them, and let them see they are not alone.

So if you can help, please jump in.

And by the way, I think many, many wives would like their husband to be more of a leader, even if they are not believers.

I'm all choked up writing this and not from sorrow. I realize that I have seen the hand of God here and I know He hears my prayers. It's absolutely incredible. That thread was exactly what I needed just now. I am having SUCH a hard time dealing with all the issues stemming from my wife's affair. I'm plan A'ing my [censored] off but I'm also filled with doubt and fearful of what lies in my future. I have searched and searched for stuff like that and prayed for something to pin my hopes on and BAM! There it is.

I was raised a Catholic and I doubt if I'm even a Christian any more but my belief in God is unshakeable and I see him here. Any 'Christian' stuff in that thread went right over my head. Belief in God and His ways is not Christian or Jewish or any other group you care to name who claim to have a lock on the 'Truth". God IS no matter what name you call Him by and he moved you to put that post there because He knew I needed Him to.

Man oh man oh man. Thank you Lord. Thank you Believer.

Campdog - You will have to thank Mortarman. He is truly a blessing. He talks from the heart about what men (and women) need.

As a retired warfighter, he is into battle plans too. I will look for some of them.

Just checking in -

I have never been unfaithful to my W, nor have I ever even thought of such a thing; how people can do such a thing is beyond me...

God bless you guys.

Well, I tried to search for MM's battle plan. Couldn't find it. Anyone here have a battle plan?

Just a very firm second to Believer's mentioning that more wives want their H's to be Leaders of the home and family. My H is not a Christian -- he was raised very strict Catholic and turned away from anything spiritual when he lost his sister -- but I, as one wife, crave that Leadership.

It's extremely difficult to try to lead my three girls own my own, without benefit of their father's input.

Faithful Husbands and Fathers, continue being there for your wives and families, supporting them, loving them, leading them. They need it now more than ever.


slh

Well, here I am faithful to the end, and my situation seems helpless. It's only moments untill I lose all I have including my children, and my baby girl who I adore so much. All because my WS has her own objectives to complete. I wasn't strong and couldn't stick to the plan. I couldn't control my outburst. I just couldn't understand why, that a man like me, that has never done anything but love and support his family was being betrayed by the woman of my dreams.

And here I sit, moment before the lights go out, the house gets sold and I no longer have access to this site and no longer have a respectable place for my children to even visit. In my wife selfishness I will lose all that I have worked for and all that I love, just so she can pursue what ever it is that "she" wants.

So if anybody can learn anything from me. I guess it would be to stick to the plan, avoid your outbursts, and I guess pretty much just suck it up. Other wise you will lose your family just like I am. I now have to get rid of my two dogs that I love because I have no place for the to stay. Beautiful fish tanks that brought me joy will have to be drained and sold. I will still have my friends that have stuck by me through this whole thing and my family, but it's just not what I need, I need my family, the one I created the ones the were born to love me, the ones that look up to me. But, my WS seems to think that she deserves them more than me.

I just can't understand where I went wrong... I guess I do, but it could have been fixed without somebody else in the picture <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

SLH - I am like you, and I think many women are the same. By leadership, I don't mean someone lording over the family in a selfish way. I am very active in my church, and there are many women that feel the same way. They are waiting for their husbands to step up to the plate.

Navyredman - I hope you won't give up just yet. You are still very new in this. Have you exposed your wife at work, and exposed the OM to his wife?

Count me in. I have been married for 23 years to a beautiful woman whom I adore. I have been as faithful as a person could be. The thought of straying has never crossed my mind. Maybe because I did in a previous marriage at a young and careless age. I betrayed my wife and we got a D. The affair ended before the D was final, but it was all in shambles. Maybe that is why I knew that I would never let myself be that weak again. I shattered my first wife's life and have felt the guilt to this day, a quarter of a century later.

My second W is now involved in an A and nothing seems to tear them apart. I have tried every trick in the book (Surviving an A). She is so lost in the fog that I don't see any hope. Some days are so depressing that it is hard to get by. Other days I can almost forget, but betrayal after such a long time is the worst experience of my life.
This forum has been an inspiration. I too am amazed that so many people can be involved in something this terrible. I too was raised a Catholic and am not very close to any church now. But boy do I pray. I think He is the only one who can fix this awful mess. Thanks for letting me vent.

yea, it's all been exposed, but it didn't seem to make any difference. I'm very down on everything today, I don't have much hope of anything at the moment. My wife has torn everything out of me, and I feel that she is having help though advice of friends. Whether or not it's paranoia it's still effecting the way I think. I have become something I have never been in my life. Short fused and out of control. I don't like it, I'm talking to my counselor about it and he says its a perfectly normal reaction and completely understandable under the circumstances. I'm not violent and I would naver lay a fingure on my wife, but I'm certainly not doing anything but love busting. It seems that every other word out of my WS mouth is a lie or some type of deception and it hurt to know that she can't talk to me or tell me the truth any more. I still love the women she was, but that no where to be found anymore, and I'm not the husband she loved anymore either.

I wish I had the strength to pull it together. I wish I hadn't pushed so hard and so far. It's just too hard for me to comprehend and I felt I needed answers.

I wish I could see a glimps of my wife again, I wish she would believe that I would give her the life she needs. However, being faithful and loving(not loving enough) was not enough for her. She needed more before her A and I know that now, and now, unfortunately is too late for our family. I still hold on to a hope that she would give me a chance, but that hope fades by the minute in this house.

Hurtsalot - Welcome. Keep hanging in there. I know how heart-wrenching it is at first. And it seems like there is no way to get through to a WS. However, many, many here have gone on to have better marriages than ever.

Navyredman - Paranoia is very normal. I was that way too. No one gave me support or hope. My WH's family sided with him, even though before they told me I was the best thing that ever happened to him.

But I have moved on. My life is very happy now. My husband is still living with his OW. But life is good again.

So you never got back together? I would have guessed by your posts that you had recovered.

Just checking in.

Married 12 plus years, together 22 years (high school sweethearts).
Adopted our daughter may 2002. She is now 3 1/2 years old.
Moved into new home September 2003
affair started december 2003/January 2004
I discovered it and went into denial around june 2nd 2004.
d-day january 28th, 2005.
wife claimed EA, but most likely was PA too
wife went through unsuccessful withdraw and contact with OM again on June 3rd, 2004 (just to get closure!!!)
Pretty much back to ground zero and most likely heading to a divorce.

Navyredman -

No, sadly, we did not get back together. I found this site too late. I had already thrown WH out. Never did Plan A or a good Plan B.

WH met OW walking our dog. Her husband had just been sent to Iraq. She was crying on the porch, and my WH tried to comfort her. It went on from there.

OW's husband came back from the war to find out that his wife was "in love" with my WH. She moved in with my WH, leaving her husband and 12 year old daughter. They have been living together all of this time, and things seem to be going well for them.

OW's husband is still taking care of his daughter. OW drops in to see her every couple of weeks. It is hard for me to understand. But that is the way it is.

Believer - I consider myself a faithful husband. But the occasional use of porn has been pointed out to be an EA, and I see that it can definately be construed as so. NC this year, except a couple of weeks in may. I now see that my "backsliding" may have been linked to feelings I was reading from WW as she slipped into this latest A.

Mortarman has been my rock. He posted to me about dying to self. I can not find it now, but when I do I will add it to this thread. We should collect all of his advice, and make a book from it. It is good stuff.

Yea, I like MM.

far

believer - I understand your objective. I also have the experience of 3+ years on the system and that "evenly yoked" versus "unevenly yoked" versus "married to each but not to God" is very real and plays a major part in recovery.

I believe that little that a committed Christian could say would be have much of an impact on a nonbeliever, and may often be met with negative, sometimes venomous response. Sort a "what's faith got to do with it?" type of response.

So, while I'm willing, and have done so many times, to offer "MB" based advice, I think the fundamental "starting point," or differentiation point if you will, is an individual's personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Without FIRST surrendering one's own life to Christ and putting Him on the throne as Lord of one's own life, "obeying God" has little meaning and no impact on any situation. People are left with attempting to use strictly secular means of help and in virtually every instance, to focus on what they, the individual, wants instead of what God wants.

So when I hear folks like Campdog, Navyredman, Hurtsalot99, FoxOr, Grovetuckyohio, etc., hurting and seeking help, I feel compassion for what they are feeling and going through as only a fellow Betrayed Husband can. But as a Christian, I KNOW that there is only one answer to all that we face, including the troubles of our marriages, and that answer is Jesus Christ. So, my "advice" is heavily dependent on "doing God's will" and "humble obedience to God's commands," and has been for all the time that I have been posting on the system.

The thread I began over 2 years ago was along that line of trying to "give back" to others some of the help that I had received as a lost and shattered Betrayed Spouse. But it, too, is decidely oriented to God as it deals with issues of forgiveness and trust that a BS MUST struggle with. They "must" struggle with it because an affair, whether the BS is a Christian or not, DESTROYS a person's ability to Trust and hits at so deep and devastating a PERSONAL level, that Forgiveness becomes a major difficulty. Even for Wayward Spouses who have committed to recovery, forgiving themselves is one of their toughest challenges....because love means forgiveness and opening ourselves to vulernability again...AFTER we have learned the reality that we CAN be betrayed by someone we love "totally."

If you'd like the URL to some of my past threads, I can give you them or post them. Here's the one on Forgiveness and Trust. You can read it if you'd like and tell me if you want anything else.

Forgive? Trust? Really? What has been learned in the past year?


I also "hear" what you are saying about women (or at least many women) wanting their husbands to be the "leader" in the home. But how is "leader" defined? What "leadership role" does a woman want her husband to assume? For me that "role" is commanded by God, as Christ's "stand-in" in my marrriage. It's not even that I perform that role "flawlessly," but that I try, that I learn from mistakes, and that I confess shortcomings, seek forgiveness, and CHANGE to improve myself (and thereby improve the marriage also).

Here’s a little snippet from my 2nd thread, shortly after we began recovery and marriage counseling:

“He also asked her about what she felt were my major failings as the leader (biblical commanded headship of the family) and then what she felt I had done right in the area of headship of the family.
She was a little reluctant at first, especially to answer what she thought my failings were, but I told her it was alright and to answer honestly. We need to know the areas that we see as "failings" of each other so we can learn to improve on areas that are important to each other. Honesty and openness happens to be my number 1 EN, and it is really refreshing to be able to talk honestly without feelings of anger or defensiveness.”

If you, or others, would like to read the entire thread, here is the URL to that one from what seems like " a long, long time ago in a Galaxy far, far away...."

Miracles happen when you are obedient to God.

God bless you as you seek to help others in their time of need.

I am reading here, too....

I haven't been posting near as much as I used to....

At this point, I am actually looking forward to my D...I have so much more to experience in my life...I am starting to see this as an opportunity instead of a crisis...I am glad to still have time on my side...somewhat.

I was completely faithful to my W during our M.


TM

Foreverhers -

Thanks for the links. Personally I don't see a problem with posting from a Christian viewpoint. Folks can learn from it or not. It always amazes me the time they spend giving their viewpoint. And that is okay with me too.

I'm still looking for mortarman's battle plan. I have a hard time with the search here.

The thing I find so sad it that the chances of an affair turning into a happy marriage later are less than 2 to 3%. So many, many people are hurt, or changed forever, and for what?

Speaking of battle plans - have all of you men exposed the affair?

believer - I know what you mean about the dismal "success" rate of marriages that begin as adulterous affairs.

But they are in denial. I see denial all the time in my line of work, but reality has a way of intruding. In my business people tend to take the attitude that problems with their health will always happen to the "other guy," and not to themselves. Most of us here (as Betrayed Spouses) have felt that an affair could happen in someone else's marriage, but not in our own.

Many WS's have thought that they could never get involved in an affair, until it "snuck up on them" and their "friendship" with a member of the opposite sex got too involved and personal.

Now, as to the "battle plan." For Christians it is very simple humble surrender to God and obedience to His commands no matter what we might be feeling. God is sovereign and has the right to command. We have the duty and obligation to obey.

I know that sounds a bit simplistic, but in the final analysis, that IS what it is all about. Until we surrender "control" of our lives to God, we will continue to be at risk for poor choices and the "lusts of the flesh."

God bless.

Foreverhers -

Our pastor gave a sermon on adultery about 4 years ago. It stuck with me all of this time. He said that very few people choose adultery. It happens more often that men and women don't maintain their boundaries and safeguards.

He advised us to never get in the position where we could be attracted to the opposite sex. We need to take great precautions. Never tell a member of the opposite sex your problems, don't be alone with them. If you feel attraction to someone, immediately run the other way.

He travels extensively. He gave an example of being in a hotel back east and running into a woman that sat by him on the flight. She sat with him at dinner, and they continued their conversation.

Red flags went up for him, and after dinner, he immediately excused himself and went to his room to call his wife.

I hear you Forever loud and clear and I thank you for the links you posted. You're right, I am hurting and seeking guidance and God is giving it to me, in His own way, in His own time.

Does it really matter if you call Him Jesus Christ or I call him Lord? Isn't the belief more important than the doctrine? I was raised Christian and I remember being taught God is all things. I'm uncomfortable arguing matters of faith since they are ultimately unarguable. In my mind it only comes down to do you believe in Him or do you not. My own personal belief is that to doubt the existence of God is to deny all evidence to the contrary. That doesn't mean that I would ever think that I have an inside line on the truth or that anyone who disagreed with me was 'wrong'. I would be dead right now without my belief in a higher power. I call that power God. I have no confidence that I can ever know his true nature, I only knows that he loves me and watches over me. If someone is in disagreement with that belief I feel no need to convince them otherwise, we are each responsible for our own destinies and we all find our own paths.

I hope that this thread doesn't boil down to a theological discussion because if it does I will lose interest. I have already felt His awesome hand on my shoulder here and I would be sad to leave. Christian, Jewish, Animist or Atheist we are all PEOPLE here with a common bond. The fundamentals don't change no matter how you interperet them. Being a good person and holding a hand out to each other is what it's all about, no?

Campdog - Thanks for keeping up with this. Have you exposed your wife's affair?

Anyone still here?

I'm still here. More actually returning. I've seen most of your posts before. I used to be bobby milk shake. No spaces in between. Had to go incognito because the ww found my info and gave it to the OM. Really pissed me off but I decided to come back under a different name. Hopefully they leave me alone now. This site is sort of my support group since I'm usually alone right now. It's been a lonely road travelled lately. So, what's going on here? A post for BH's. That good to know that there are others giving the good fight.

Hey TreborRose - Good to see you again. Sorry to hear you are usually alone. There are a bunch of guys here right now fighting the good fight.

Believer

Glad to hear it.

I'm borderline right now on whether to continue to fight for my marriage because I'm not sure if I can even win with the best effort. I've been beat up pretty bad lately. At least emotionally and mentally. But I can say things are a lot better since d-day six months ago.

I know it's only been six months and others have held on longer but when you aren't given much hope it's hard to hold out. I guess by coming here I actaully am given inspiration by others not to give up just yet. i think its time for me to start another thread about what's going on with me. I'm back because i need more advice because I'm at a cross roads.

By the way, are your numbers correct that only 2-3% of affairs last to become happy marriages?

Also, where are you at in your journey?

Yep, the numbers are correct. They don't go on to have a happy relationship.

In my case, my WH is long gone, and I don't care anymore. After almost 3 years of this, I'm divorcing him.

Sorry to hear that. I know it's a long process and it seems that the pain doesn't go away all that quick either. You are further along than I am and I wonder if the pain will ever go away. I know it gets better every day but sometimes I have relapses. Is your WH still with the OW?

I know in this case I find it hard to believe that they could be happy in the long run because both my WW and the OM are sort of messed up in the head outside of the A itself.

Were there any kids involved? I have a 7 year old myself.

Right now I'm trying to figure out if I want to keep holdng out hope. And if she even comes back do I want to try and repair the damage caused by someone who may not even want to try that hard. Her mother's side of the family has a long history of infidelity and she fell into it. She actually told me how horrible of a childhood she had because of her mothers A and she went and had one herself. It is now my responsibility to protect my son from her traits and her mothers traits as well. By the way, her mom babysat my son so my WW could go off and be with the other man.

My WH is still with the OW. Our kids are grown. OW has a 12 year old who she has abandoned, and left with her husband.

But I am very happy. Whichever way it goes for you, you will be happy one day again.

I dont really know if there's been a PA, but the EA has been exposed...sorta.

In my case I have not exposed the affair but it's something I think about daily. If my wife is to be believed her partner in adultery's family now knows the truth about them but no one on my side of the fence does. I have revealed her affair and my son's paternity to only two people who's judgement i trust and whose advice I sought out. I do have a list of phone numbers prepared for if I decide on the scorched earth approach.
According to my wife the OM is single and has asked her repeatedly to leave me and marry him. She has also told me that his mother is willing to support him financially in any legal effort to prove his paternity and gain visitation privileges.

In a few days I will be able to see see whether or not she is still lying to me about phone contact. If I discover (as I suspect I will) that they are still talking I am pretty well convinced that I will blow the whistle to her family and friends. She could care less about mine but I am a darling in her families eyes.

I haven't done so up until now because of the possibilty that she is telling the truth about ending the affair. If she is then exposure at this time would seem to me to be more vindictive than anything else. We both know that the affair will eventually be public knowlege anyway. Even though he is only eight months old we are already getting questions about who my son looks like. While my first son is my spitting image my second son looks nothing like me and very little my wife. We have discussed the matter and we both agree that we would rather deal with exposure issues from within the framework of a secure relationship than to load even more weight on a shaky marriage. If we separate or I go to plan B then there is no question that I will let everyone know why.

Faithful husbands ? I guess thats me.

Yes, Bob Pure, it definitely includes you brother.

Campdog - I understand your reticence to "turn this into a theological discussion." That is partly why I asked Believer what she envisioned as the "intent" of this thread. Since I "AM" a Christian, God is number one on my list of important priorities. My marriage is number 2, my family is number 3, everything else is a distant 4th. So let me quote the "relevant" parts of your post in order to respond to the questions you posed.

Campdog: "Does it really matter if you call Him Jesus Christ or I call him Lord? Isn't the belief more important than the doctrine? I was raised Christian and I remember being taught God is all things. I'm uncomfortable arguing matters of faith since they are ultimately unarguable. In my mind it only comes down to do you believe in Him or do you not."

Yes, it matters enormously. It IS the person of Jesus Christ who IS what matters. IF Jesus Christ IS NOT who He said He was, and IF Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, then by all means, "believe" whatever anyone chooses to believe or not believe because it won't matter anyway.

However, IF Jesus Christ IS who He says He is...ALL other "beliefs" and/or religions are worthless human "constructs" that are NOT based in truth.

Even Satan KNOWS who God and Jesus Christ are. KNOWLEDGE alone is insufficient. It takes acceptance and surrender to the one true LORD, Jesus Christ. That is what Satan is "unwilling" to do and that is what most humans are "unwilling" to do.

Campdog: "My own personal belief is that to doubt the existence of God is to deny all evidence to the contrary. That doesn't mean that I would ever think that I have an inside line on the truth or that anyone who disagreed with me was 'wrong'."

Neither would I have an "inside line on the truth" had God Himself not revealed the truth in the Scripture that He inspired to be written for our edification. It is NOT my "opinion" that I base my faith upon, but upon the revealed truth of God and the FACT that Jesus Christ existed, died, and rose from the dead.

Campdog: "I would be dead right now without my belief in a higher power. I call that power God. I have no confidence that I can ever know his true nature, I only knows that he loves me and watches over me. If someone is in disagreement with that belief I feel no need to convince them otherwise, we are each responsible for our own destinies and we all find our own paths."

That a faith in a "higher power" can make some humans feel like they have an anchor to help them through tough times is true. That "lifeline" to sanity is not the issue with respect to the "correct" theological belief however.

I have no compulsion to "convince" anyone to accept Jesus Christ. I DO have a responsibility to "stand for God" and to explain WHY I believe what I believe should someone ask. I also have the responsibility to not "accept" someone's statement that "ANY" faith is as "good as the next" and to state WHY Christianity is the ONLY path to reconciliation and salvation with God.

We ARE all responsible for the choices we make. But your reasoning is skewed "against" religion and "against" logic. To put it "bluntly," or to put it "logically," let's look at your premise and just ONE logical extension of what you seem to be saying when you make the argument that "individual destiny" being the SUPREME consideration:

"If someone is in disagreement with that belief I feel no need to convince them otherwise, we are each responsible for our own destinies and we all find our own paths."

WHAT or WHY, if this argument is "true," would be the legitimate reason for attempting to convince ANY Wayward Spouse that the "destiny" they have chosen is "wrong?" Why should anyone "fight" to save and recover their marriage if another individual (the WS or the OP) has decided that THEIR "destiny" (or choices) supercede what YOU want or need? Is there NO "right and wrong?" Are we not allowed to "judge" any behavior, or belief, as being wrong based upon truth and a "higher power" defining what is "right and wrong" rather than what ANY individual might feel is "right for themselves" regardless of anyone else?

At the very least it makes the Marriage vows totally meaningless and eliminates any reason for "Marriage" as we know it. It changes "until death do we part" into "[/u]until I know longer feel 'in love' or no longer feel my 'emotional needs' are being met by YOU[/u]."

Campdog: "I hope that this thread doesn't boil down to a theological discussion because if it does I will lose interest. I have already felt His awesome hand on my shoulder here and I would be sad to leave."

Indeed it would be sad if you made the choice to leave. But as you said previously, that would be YOUR destiny and not ours to "interfere" with. Seriously though, none of us has any control over whether or not another member of MB decides to stay or decides to go. But this IS a public forum, and "group therapy" to boot, so differing opinions and positions are BOUND to happen. IF disagreement with our own position or thoughts is a "trigger" that gives someone an "excuse" to leave, there is little anyone here can do about that. The "implied" statement that accompanies such statements is that anyone who might say anything (though it is usually targeted just at Christians and Christian arguments) should keep their mouths shut and not say anything related to faith at all.

So I guess what I'm saying is that we are talking about a "free speech" issue. Anyone can say just about anything they want to on the system. But no one else has to listen to them. We each retain the right to CHOOSE what we will say, what we will respond to, what we will take in as "advice" that is applicable to us, what we will reject, and whether or not we will remain on the system (to get or give help).

Campdog: "Christian, Jewish, Animist or Atheist we are all PEOPLE here with a common bond. The fundamentals don't change no matter how you interperet them. Being a good person and holding a hand out to each other is what it's all about, no?"

If you are referring to our "common bond" of infidelity, then "yes" would be what "it's all about" with respect to MB and our attempts to get and give help to hurting BS's and WS's who are seeking to "do what is right."

Being a "good person" is part of the motivation. So is following in the footsteps of the "Good Samaritan." So is helping other professing Christians to evaluate their "walk with Christ" and their own level of "humble obedience to God's commands REGARDLESS of what they are feeling or doing.

For Christians, the "game" has already been decided. There IS only one way to "go," and that is humble obedience to the one we have surrendered our lives to as our LORD and Savior. HE is on the throne and HE has the "right and authority" to command us and we have the obligation to obey our Sovereign LORD.

The rest are mere humanistic "arguments" and "reasonings." God says it quite simply this way; "Come, let us reason together." But when we reject Him and when we reject the Scripture, we CHOOSE to "go it alone without God" and WE, not God, are responsible for the outcomes and the "destiny" (or consequences of our choices and actions).

God bless.

Forever, I meant leaving this thread, not MB. MB saved my life. I respect your obviously deeply held convictions and you have every right in the world to express them anywhere you see fit. I thought that the topic of this thread was interesting and I can see a lot of worth in comparing notes with men who share my plight. But I am not interested in logging onto MB for a theological discussion. I come here for hope and guidance in getting me through the worst time of my life. I don't need any help with my relationship with God, He and I are very close friends.

Peace brother. We don't really disagree, we simply see things through a different filter. Please don't ever 'keep your mouth shut'. You are doing His work.

Having said that I am day 67 past d-day and having a really hard time with inward rage at my spouse. I'm not expressing it to her but I know she can see something is wrong when I get quiet. I don't want my anger to become my focus or distract me from the joyous task of loving my wife. Any suggestions or ideas?

I think anger is very normal, and especially for a man. That is one reason I encourage the men here to expose and stand up for their family. It is very difficult if you betray yourself, while trying to get your wife back.

B, I agree with Melody Lane that Anger is a very underestimated emotion if it is channelled properly. It can break down walls of apathy and fear.

You're right too about betraying yourself. It is of great worth to me that I chose the brave route and did not settle for crumbs when I fought to get Squid back.

Yep Bob -

Even though female, I starting hating myself for how little I expected from WH. Looking back, it makes me sick. Luckily I am in recovery ALONE. I don't think I could ever get over it - not so much what he did, but how I was willing to put up with anything to get him back.

I was more in the fog than he was.

I know it's normal to feel anger in my situation. How could you NOT feel anger? I have seen it expressed often in this very forum. My question was for the people like bOb and believer who have been in this horror longer than I. How did you keep from letting the anger consume you and become counter productive? I'm having a tough time with this one. I see my wife making genuine efforts at rebuilding our marriage yet too many times I feel only my anger. So far I am able to repress it and not allow it to mess up my efforts but it builds. Any suggestions on dealing with anger other than repressing it? So far talking about it with my spouse is not an option.

Very well said and I agree with this 100%. Anger can be a huge motivator for positive change but you have to be careful because it also can cause much destruction if not managed properly.

I no longer have much anger towards WW. Its mostly just disgust now. My main concern now is helping my children salvage whatever relationship they can with their mother as we move forward with the divorce. But they too are remarkably strong for being little people... in fact they have given me much of my strength...

Miker

Well, that is the key, Miker. Anger is not bad if properly channeled, but can be bad it isn't. A LACK OF anger is just as destructive when the situation calls for it. Moral cowardice [or neutrality] is just as destructive as unchecked anger, IMO. I think anger gets a very undeserved bad rap, for some odd reason. Decent people should be angered by injustice. When they don't, evil is allowed to thrive.

Campdog -

First, the anger is a natural part of this. I used to be very angry at my WH and OW. But anger is part of caring, and it the situation goes on and on, you will no longer care. That is why I think men need to expose, and do their best to end the affair. If the affair doesn't end, then they must move forward for themselves and their family.

Wow, this thread has really taken off. Thanks Believer for getting this started.

A lot being said on here. The interesting thing I was thinking about as I read this thread is how many wives are involved in affairs. When you usually think of affairs, you think of some guy going to work and picking up his secretary. Something like that.

But what you dont think of is some mother of three, who volunteers at the church and crisis pregnancy center, who teaches kids on Wednesday night at the church...you just dont think of a woman like that starting up a relationship while her husband is away at war, with some guy at the local gym. You dont think its possible that same woman would leave her husand and kids so she could be in an apartment and see this OM. This is something I never really thought happened.

So, to sit on here with other BHs is quite a shock actually. And as I have studied and read over the last few years, as I have inquired on here...I have realized that there is a sameness when a WW is involved.

Sure, we could go on and on about what our WWs have done, or what kind of person does what they have done. But what I have tried to portray to many BHs on here is what The Lord has shown me. And that is that I am the leader of my home, I am responisble for my home, responsible for my wife, responsible for my kids. No one else on this planet, including my wife, has that responsibility.

So, how am I going to be able to meet my responsibilities, protect and lead my wife and my family? Well I had to learn the hard way that my ability to be the leader revolves around three basic rules, the central tenets of what I have called my "battle plan."

Whether or not a person is a Christian, God still wants their marriage to succeed. Why? Mainly for the the subsequent enerations. The Bible speaks to this as it talks about things we do (good and bad) will go down 4 generations. So, when it comes to marriage, God wants marriages to succeed because it is thru that a child is able to grow up and have a chance of seeing Him and accepting Jesus.

If you go back to my original threads, you will see that I talk about what happened in Bosnia a few years ago. Things were bad, and my wife had started the affair. I did not know that at the time, but I knew we were in trouble. While I was in Bosnia one day, I was at my desk and was just kind of leafing thru the Bible as I prayed, wondering what I was going to do. And then the Lord spoke. He spoke through Scripture, thru our chaplain, through other people. He spoke. Over the next several weeks, He showed me the three central tenets to being a husband:

1. Stop worrying about my wife. What He meant by that was that I was to stop controlling the situation, stop trying to make things happen my way.

2. Get back to my First Love. That is Jesus. He was trying to used this crisis to show me that in everything in my life, and every part of it, that it should be surrendered to Jesus. Only then could I possibly have a chance to get what He had for me, to get the blessings that were waiting.

3. Die for my wife. No way you follow Jesus without becoming like Him. And that means dying. It means dying to self, putting my wife and my children before myself. it means that to follow Jesus will mean that I must lead but give up the power to decide the outcome. This was and still is the hardest part of all of this.

I have learned thru all of this mess that while I MUST lead, I must give up the right to dictate the outcome. What that means is while I know that my wife's adultery was wrong, I must give up the right to punish her for it. Shoot, I give up the right to even educate her on it.

As a leader, as the leader of my family, I must first set the example. Then I must provide Gdly counsel to my wife and kids (I am their pastor). And then, I must turn them over to God and let Jesus take my leadership and my counsel, and help form and better them.

Men and women are different. There are unique things built into men by God that women dont have. While any believer can go straight to the throne of God boldly, in the context of the family, God cnducts this thru a heirarchy. I have the ability to lead my family because of my place in that heirarchy. My wife does not have that ability.

That is why it sickens me about the men that walk away from their families and wives. They have left their home without a leader, without that representative to god which Jesus works through to build a healthy family.

In a discussion the other night, my wife said that she still did not understand why I thought divorce was so bad. Why I didnt walk away when she was cheating. I told her that I could not. That to do so would have been the worst sort of abuse I could have ever laid on her and my kids. I get angry when I see men go "Well, our marriage isnt working out. I am not going to fight for custody...they should be with their mother."

What??? I dont get that. They should be with both parents. But a house without a leader is like a boat without a rudder...it has no direction and can easily be capsized.

So, all I can really say is that in order to have a truly blessed marriage and life really, we men had better realize the truthes of life. That first and foremost, without the leadership and relationship with Jesus, then we will never have what we should have...which means our wives and kids will never get what they should get. The second thing is that those three tenets must outline our every move, our every decision.

When we do that, then questions like "how could my wife cheat" become "How can I help my wife be the person she should be."

It has been an eye opening experience, one I dont think I would have had without my wife's affair. I see everything in my life so differently now. And my wife, my ids, my friends, etc have noticed.

Which may be the single biggest reason my marriage is doing so well now.

In His arms.

Campdog - "be angry (righteous anger), but in your anger do not also sin." Words of advice and command from God.

So WHAT is it that you are most angry about? Sin against God and/or sin against you?

Part of being able to deal with anger is to have established Boundaries with established consequences for when those Boundaries are violated by someone. The consequences can vary in "intensity" and "finality" depending upon what YOU choose. They are, after all, YOUR Boundaries.

"Anger" by itself is not "bad" or "good." It is an emotion that God gave us and is supposed to be how we react to sin against God. But we've too often forgotten about God and reserved the anger to what we perceive as "offenses" against us, even if they were not malicious offenses. In the case of adultery, most of us recognize it as a "sin" even if it's just a "sin" against generally accepted societal norms. It strikes at the "possessive" nature of most of us, nevermind that it is also expressly forbidden in by God in the 10 Commandments that He gave us.

So, in partial answer to your "what to do question," let me say that you clearly state your boundaries and the consequences if someone chooses to violate them regardless of how you might feel. Do NOT allow it to degrade into poisonous bitterness.

Here's something that might help put it into perspective a little:



campdog – you may also find the following link to be helpful on days when the “dog seems to have you.”

Timely story for days when things seem bleak

MM says:
As a leader, as the leader of my family, I must first set the example. Then I must provide Godly counsel to my wife and kids (I am their pastor). And then, I must turn them over to God and let Jesus take my leadership and my counsel, and help form and better them.

Again, underlining the need for the Husband to the Leader in the Home. I'm afraid this portion of the Bible is one of the most gleefully misunderstood by abusive husbands and ardent feminists, to whatever end most suits their needs. But it shouldn't be; it is quite simple in fact.

MM,
What to do when the "Head of Household" is not a Christian? Is it as simple as the W taking up the slack? Because, biblically speaking, I've been taught that it can never be good enough in comparison. Something will always be lacking in the our lives. How does one combat that?

Sorry about the TJ here, just very curious about how to handle this issue.

slh

MM, are we faithful husbands ever supposed to have any fun ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You make it sound like a punishment to be a husband doing the best he can ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SLH, no problem. No threadjack here. Just keeping the discussion going. If I can ever get three minutes to myself, I will be able to finish the women's roles in marriage thread. but a quick note on it here in order to answer your question.

Okay, first off...God warned us not to marry an unbeliever. He warned us explicitly to not do that, because usually the believer is pulled away by the unbeliever, instead of the unbeliever being pulled toward Jesus.

Now sometimes, maybe two unbelievers marry and then the wife gets saved. What then??? Well there are whole passages for wives on how to make their husband all they should be. It is thru their chaste and respectful behavior. And like I said, I will finish the women's thread this week so you can see the details of what that means.

Whether or not a husband is a believer, he is still the head of the family as ordained by God. And there are certain blessings that come to that family by the wife being the kind of wife that God expects. The Bible even says that a woman's behavior and rightness with God will actually win over her husband. God will use that Godly woman to get thru to her husband. But that requires that wife to do some superhuman things. To endure an unbelieving husband and to not have a household that is all that it should be. But, if she hangs in there, God promises to come through. One thing to remember though...God does not require you to follow a leader that is telling you to do something that is against what his leader is telling him. That is your "out" in following your husband.

Of course, God does not force a woman to stay in a marriage with an unbelieving husband that is trying to leave. God says to let them go.

Basically, this all means first...dont marry an unbeliever...and second, if you are married to an unbleiving husband, then you do your part as outlined by God...and He will take care of the rest.

There actually is a passage that God has for that woman that is a Godly wife, when translated into today's language, literally means "I have your back." God has your back, as long as you do what you need to do.

Kinda what I was saying about us husbands above.

In His arms.

Well Mortarman -

Not to threadjack my own thread, but here goes. I married a believer. Tried to be a godly woman. But he never stepped up to be the leader. As I mentioned before, I have been in many, many women's groups through my church. The most common desire of these women is for the husband to lead. And yes, I did follow. But try following someone who is more lost than you are.

Even in the Christian world, men have a terrible time with this. They work to take care of their families, go to church, but have a hard time with the leadership role.

For the non-believers - Guys - women crave a man who is the leader in his family. For me this means making an effort to honor your wife, and family. It means coming home from a hard day at work and not just turning on the TV. It means planning for a future, and holding onto a higher standard.

And for you Bob, yep - sometimes being the leader is not a lot of fun.

Well, of course it is fun!! Look, why do soldiers continue to sign up for low pay, bad living conditions, possible death, long eployments away from their families? Why?

It is because of the sacrifice. It is extremely powerful, one of the most powerful feelings you can ever have, to lay yourself out there for another...for 300 million others.

Jesus did that. And while a lot of what He went thru certainly was not fun (as was evidenced just a little bit in the Passion of Christ), the results were absolutely fun for Him! He was able to save many of those people that He loves. He made a way for all of us to have a relationship with Him forever. For those that accept His payment, we will forever be "married" to Him, forever in His presence. Not bad. And I know if you ask Jesus today if it was all worth it, you know He would say yes.

Three years ago, in the middle of the affair, in the middle of the betrayal...God called on me to either give up (which I could have) or trust Him and die. Jesus did the same. He decided that He would do the dying, and He would trust God to get Him up out of that grave. So, I decided to do the same. That if I followed Him, no matter how bad it got...that He would have my back, He would make sure I came up out of that grave after dying for my wife.

Bob, the fun aint the dying...the fun is the other side!!

In His arms.

It means planning for a future, and holding onto a higher standard.

B, this really strikes me. This is what I strive to do. I decided early on after d-day that I WOULD NOT fight lies with lies. I adopted PORH almost before everything else.

OM is such a foul weasel in almost every part of his life, I was determined to behave in a way that I would be proud of. That my Mom and Dad would have approved of if they were here.

How could I ask for transparency from Squid If I obfuscated? How could I ask her and my kids for truth if I lied?

How could I ask for faithfulnes if I were unfaithful ?

I really do deliberately strive to conform to a higher standard. Its hard sometimes, but I'm at peace with my reflection which is great gain.

Believer, I know what you mean. And that is why I posted my other thread...and why I continue to harp on this for the men. Because our society is turning our wimps, turning out men that are afraid to lead. Afraid that they will appear overbearing, or somehow trying to "enslave" their wife.

But the women, in their quiet time, in their groups, to their friends, are SCREAMING for a leader. It has to be hard in that position, to KNOW you need a leader, and the person that is supposed to be that leader, wont. But again, to follow God's program, to follow what He says a wife should, means He will deal with that man. He will take care of you, even if that means that you will have a new leader in the future.

A husband that professes to follow Jesus, professes to be saved, who calls himself a Christian...and does not follow God's calling for him as a husband and leader...I would actually question whether they were actually saved in the first place.

You will know them by their fruits. a husband that does not follow Christ and does not lead his family...cannot have the fruits of the Spirit. And is fooling himself that he is saved.

In His arms.

MM -

I do believe that these men are saved, but in our society it is extremely difficult to be a man that steps up.

I work in the engineering field with more than 20 men, and I can go toe to toe with them. But I don't want that with my husband. I'm sure there are many, many women here that feel the same.

MM says:
If I can ever get three minutes to myself, I will be able to finish the women's roles in marriage thread. but a quick note on it here in order to answer your question.

MM, Thanks so much for taking the time to address my question. I apologize for asking it here -- I had no idea that there was a thread devoted to the Wives' role in Marriage. If you or anyone else gets a moment, will you please direct me to it? I have a lot to learn.

Thanks,

slh

But the women, in their quiet time, in their groups, to their friends, are SCREAMING for a leader. It has to be hard in that position, to KNOW you need a leader, and the person that is supposed to be that leader, wont.

Yes, yes, YES!

And guys, these aren't women from some religious extremist faction here. They're not made up of some innocuous cult who won't allow their women to cut their hair or wear shorts or make-up. These are your neighbors, your coworkers, your wives.

[/i]Everyone[/i] needs someone to look up to, to admire, to cherish and honor. To lead. As a wife, I ask, why not your husband?

It's what our vows said.


slh

You know I just wanted to stop in and say that although I’ve never been anything else… other then a faithful husband…I don’t really see this as being anything extraordinary. It’s just something that has always seemed right…a balanced part of my life…she and I…me and her…just a right combination…

So how could I ever cheat on her…my best friend and partner?…The one person in the world I always couldn’t wait to speak with, be with, share with? I measured everything in life with her response to it in mind.

And I’ll make no bones about that fact that I’m a lover of the female of the species in general…I truly enjoy woman…I love being in their company…looking at them…enjoying their beauty…yes…even day dreaming about their beauty…but to want one other then my wife just never really was an issue for me…I wonder why?
Coach

Coach, practically brilliant what you said here. I believe this with all my heart. You know, God made women this way. Remember, as God created everything, He kept right on working. One day He created man, the supposed crowning glory of His creation. Man, who was created in His image. Man, who was put in charge of God's creation, who got to name it and to have dominion over it.

But what does it say in Genesis about man, after God created him and set him about his day? It said "this isnt good." He looked at man and knew that He was not done yet. That there was something missing from Adam, some part of God that was not represented in Adam.

And so He created Eve. And what does Genesis say about the creation of Eve? Well, God said "it is VERY good." Eve was the last thing God made in creation. Eve was the crown of His creation. You can look into the stars and see the most incredible things...and still He wasnt done until He got to Eve. All of the systems and subsystems that make this planet work...and still He wasnt done yet...not until Eve.

All of the great men and the things they have done throughout history...but it wasnt until God created the woman that He was done...that He had made his ultimate creation.

If we sit back and think about it, why wouldnt we look at women (and our wives in particular, because that particular woman was created or us) in absolute awe. You know, if you go back to the original language of the Old Testament, you will realize something of this when Adam first saw Eve.

Adam was given the job of naming everything in creation. He had even named himself. He called himself "Ish" (promounced 'eesh'), wich is in another way..."man."

When he saw Eve he was awestruck. Here was someone that sort of looked like him, sort of acted like him...but was oh so different. Incredibly different! So, when it came time to name her, he named her Ishaw (May not be right spelling, but it is promounced "eesh-awe." Woman. A man, but not a man. Incredibly different.

She was created from him, but different. God had created Adam from dust. Eve was created from Adam. But when she was created, God had improved in so many ways on the original.

Let me ask you a question. Name 5 great men in history and name their wives. Name 10, name 15. Of course, we all can begin to chime in (Nancy Reagan, Mary Todd Lincoln, Martha Washington). Now, name 5 of society's great women (by society's standard). And name the name of their husbands. Bet you cannot do it.

I always was a good soldier in the Army. But, I didnt start excelling, I didnt become one of the best in the Army at what I did, until I met my wife. You can divide my career in two parts...pre-Mrs. Mortarman and after I married her. And it is night and day.

I was one of the youngest first sergeants in the division I was in. And I still get calls to come back to be a sergeant major and I would even be the youngest division command sergeant major if I had stayed.

Why is this? Why am more than I ever could have been, just with this woman in my life? God says that when we were married, we were bonded together...we became one. No longer could God look at Mortarman and say "this isnt good." but now He ssaw Mortarman and said this is very good.

Wit my wife bonded to me, I no longer was the person I used to be. it is like the old wine flasks. made out of animal skins or bladders. Once those skins were filled with wine, the wine fermented and the skins expanded. And they never could have gone back to the way they used to be.

I know I went on a tangent here, but we men had better wake up to see that our wives are not just a part of our lives, not someone to placate or be nice to when we want to "get some." They arent one of our buddies, or a partner (as so many people SAY they want out of marriage).

No, that lady is the crowning achievement of God. His most glorious creation. And guess what guys? Just as Adam got Eve...God created a woman, one of His greatest creaions...just for YOU!

Sure, thanks to Adam and Eve's failures, that woman isnt perfect. She has sin, just as we do. But look deeper. Look deep down. Inside that woman that says she wants independence and to live like a man, lives this creature that wants nothing more than to be the end-all-be-all to one person on this planet. The key is for you, with your dependence on Jesus, to help find your way to that inner woman.

My problem throughout the affair was that I thought my wife was going to react as a guy would. What I realize now is that MB principles work for a reason. Because we humans are wired to be this way, and to react to these principles. But I also realized that there are differences also. I cannot expect my wife to react to these things the same way as I do. Shoot, we were talking today about the differences between men and women in how they orgasm (okay, guys...dont get too excited there...it wasnt that "sexy"). But my wife, who is a nurse, talked about where I had read recently that women, when they orgasm...their brain almost completely shut down in that moment. I cannot even imagine what that must be like. Anyway, my wife went on to tell me that yes, physically, women start from a state of anxiwty and move toward a stae of calmness...that the orgasm is the crowning achievement of reaching total relaxation and comfortness. Men, on the otherhand, start of calm and relaxed and reach orgasm at their most hightened state...they are the complete opposite of calm and relaxed. Oh, how different we are...it is a wonder that we ever get it together in the bedroom.

The key to this is to find the balance...to find a way to get the guy worked up, while calming the woman down. No way her brain can get comfortable enough to shut down (orgasm) in an environment where she does not feel safe or is not comfotable.

I'll stop now with that. I have learned to look on my wife in a whole different way now. And even with all of her flaws, all I really see is something incredible.

In His arms.

Believer - Going "toe to toe" with men is the "mantra" of the feminist movement. Women DON'T need men. "The Message" has been heard loud and clear by men and women are "getting what they wanted."

I know, that sounds harsh and unfeeling. But after decades of propaganda from all sides, just WHY should a man be a "leader," rather than a "ruler or master or a 'Casper Milktoast'" in his own home?

Beginning in the 60's, women "bought into the sexual revolution and the equality of the sexes" garbage. Women no longer "required" being treated as something special, to be sought after for more than sexual fulfilment. So why, now, are some women lamenting having achieved what Gloria Steinam and the NOW crowd have labored for? Since NO man has any right to his child if the woman wants, for whatever reason, to have an abortion, who IS the "leader" in the home?

The "mixed messages" abound. Unless someone is a committed CHRISTIAN male, why would God's roles be important, much less something to be obeyed, to the husband? Why would a husband WANT to be a leader when the wife acts like all other "feminist women" in most respects?

Why, when Hollywood, among many other sources, preaches that women are "objects" who are to look and act seductive, should the men of the world NOT take that as "gospel?"

Personally, I think what women are reaping today is just what they wanted....to "have their cake and eat it too."

Men ARE fairly simple creatures. Men tend to take "direct paths" and are not into "Feminine guile" to get what they want. So the "lesson" men have learned is that women are "equal" and should be treated just as you would treat another "man." Ever ask yourself WHY men generally have so few "friends?" It has a lot to with "vulnerability" and seeming "less than a macho male."

StillLovingHim made the following response to your post:

"Yes, yes, YES!

And guys, these aren't women from some religious extremist faction here. They're not made up of some innocuous cult who won't allow their women to cut their hair or wear shorts or make-up. These are your neighbors, your coworkers, your wives.

Everyone needs someone to look up to, to admire, to cherish and honor. To lead. As a wife, I ask, why not your husband?

It's what our vows said."

So I ask the question, ala Tina Turner,...."What's a vow go to do with it?"

Hollywood, "no fault divorce," etc. have taught us that vows are meaningless in our society. So WHAT is it that would engender a desire in the HUSBAND to fulfill a role that God has COMMANDED, whether he likes it or not and whether or not he "wants" to to it? Think about it, even God has commanded the MAN to love his wife, but has NOT commanded the wife to love her husband. So given the "self-interest" propaganda of society, why should a man be interested in a marriage where the wife doesn't have to love HIM? She can love his money, his status in life, etc., but doesn't have to love him. Seems like a recipe for "arm candy" to me....IF the man is NOT surrendered to Christ and walking in humble submission to God's will, whether he "understands" it or not.

After all, to most of society "God" is "just another" woman (just ask any feminist who delights in ascribing a female gender to God) TELLING and DEMANDING that man to "stuff his needs and feelings and just do what he's told."

Where does the woman's role in all of this come into play?

In God's plan for marriage, there ARE roles that the man and woman are to fulfill. But that presupposes a willingness on both their parts to submit to God FIRST.

Women are supposed to be "completers" of their husbands, not their "equal" or "toe to toe" person. StillLovingHim put it this way; "these aren't women from some religious extremist faction here." No, they are not, but they are part of a gender that has done it's level best to "demasculinize" men and to get them "in touch with their feminine side." So now they are surprised that they got what they wanted?

So, what's to be done about it? Talking about God's roles for husbands and wives is a very good starting point, but only in so far as a couple is willing to be obedient to God no matter what. Several years ago I said that I found it hard to understand how anyone who is NOT a Christian could recover from adultery. The reason for that is multifaceted, but the "base" idea is that it entails surrendering our "wants and desires" to God and then "obeying His commands." Most of us don't want to surrender "control" and view everything from a "pleasing ME" viewpoint, instead of a "pleasing God" viewpoint.

So when StillLovingHim wrote her list of "wants" for a husband, "someone to look up to, to admire, to cherish and honor. To lead. As a wife, I ask, why not your husband?
", I would respond by asking why should a husband "go against all that society and feminism have demanded of him? Women don't want a man to "look up to, to admire, to cherish," they want a man to "go toe to toe with," if they need a man at all. So is it "earning power, status in life, sexual prowess, etc." that is supposed to "garner the admiration, honor, and cherishing" of "manhood?"

The "problem," as I see it, is in our disobedience (both men and women) to God's commands. We put God on a shelf (at best) for most of the time and only "drag it off the shelf and dust it off" when it's "convenient" for us. We are "reaping what we have sown" as a society. Toss into that mix the very real differences that God created in men and women (much to the chagrin of feminists) and there is a "disconnect" in "how men are supposed to behave."

Today we have society trying it's level best to do away with "biblical based marriage." There IS nothing "special" about marriage, just as their is nothing "wrong" with having homosexual ministers. The SCRIPTURE is "meaningless," or at best simply a collection of "nice stories."

So what's the answer? Surrender to Christ, walk with Christ, and obey God's commands regardless of how we might be feeling. But tell that to a non-believer and get ready for a firestorm of resentment, anger, and abusive response. That is NOT the "human thing to do." WE, after all, are in control of our television set. WE control the horizontal and the vertical. We are NOT created to honor God, but to do and get whatever WE want, regardless of the impact on anyone else. WE are human. OR to put it in the feminist vernacular...."I am WOMAN...hear me ROAR!"

"What's love got to do with it?!?!"

Foreverhers - Your points are well taken.

My WH's OW's husband is a good man. He is not a Christian, though. He has sacrifised for his country - 2 tours in Irag (during the last one, the affair started). He came home to no wife and no job. But he stepped up and took care of his daughter. He takes her to school, sports events, cooks and cleans, and now works two jobs.

He has proven to be an honorable man. It just makes me so sad to see the raw deal he got. But you know what? He doesn't complain at all, just keeps plodding along.

It has really changed the way I look at men.

Believer - I grieve with you about the OW's husband. That man sounds like a the sort of "Unequally yoked" spouse that Scripture talks about who is trying to to the "right thing" even though they have not personally met and accepted Christ.

We all have the innate ability to know what is "right" and what is "wrong," as a consequence of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Some of us "hear" that voice and respond...

It is a voice, most often, of service. We choose to be the servant of our spouse, putting their needs ahead of what we might perceive as "our needs." In the case of this gentleman, he seems to have embraced the military posture of "service to his fellow Americans," Duty, Honor, Country, Service.

It IS a shame that so many in this country do NOT respect the sacrifice that so many others make on our behalf, and sometimes, as seems to be the case here, they come home from protecting our freedom to find that someone else excercise that "freedom" to take what was theirs simply because they "felt like it."

We have had several in the military who have been "members" of our "club" on MB...and it really hurts. In most cases, they are overseas and can't even begin to "fight" the "MB way" or even any way.

To those who serve and who have served in the Armed Forces, we owe our "freedom" to "do as we wish." I just wish more of us had personal Standards that would not take advantage of "when the cat's away, the mice will play."

Obviously, I don't know his situation like you do, but I am sure that his wife was even more to "blame" than your husband because she KNEW that being married to a serviceman would be some periods of extended separation when he was deployed.

I think I'll stop for now because this whole idea reeks of using, abusing, and backstabbing someone who is defending our freedom so that WE, ourselves, don't have to go fight for our freedom (we just get to abuse that freedom) and it's getting me "worked up."

God bless.

Foreverhers -

The odd thing is that I almost felt worse for her husband than I did for myself. I did ask my husband how he could do that, and he made some feeble joke. But I know it will one day bother him. We have always had a heart for veterans and soldiers and have been very active in trying to help them.

So I wonder how the faithful husbands here are doing? Seems like Gramn's situation is getting to the turnaround point. I think he was one of the first to expose lately.