In April, Top Rope made a thread that I can't forget.

It's not enough to say "I'm Sorry". The WS must make amends to the BS for recovery.

I have not seen any "amends being made" by Geeze, except her being herself and us going about our lives like nothing ever happened.

I think when the BS feels like the WS "GOT AWAY WITH THE A" the WS making amends would help.

So, BSs, what amends did your WS make for you after Dday or WSs what amends did you make to show your BS how sorry and remorseful you were.

And was there a discussion concerning making the amends as to what and when to make them?

I think this is what I need.

k

Hey Krusht

I just rearead a book by Rona Subotnik "surviving infidelity". She argues in their that while real amends is impossible after such an enormous insult GRAND gestures should be attempted.

Squid asked me what she could do ANYTHING to help make up for what she did. I told her there was nothing that ever could, but apologising showing she loved me as often as possible would be a good start.

Well, she shows she loves me a lot and I got my first real working 'sorry' a coupla weeks ago.

She does lots of small thoughtful things for me now.

I got back from working in Edinburgh tonight ( early flight - long day - home late and tired) and Squid had made me a Moussaka followed by rhubarb crumble for dinner. She served it up excitedly.

She hates mousaka and rhubarb crumble. But she spent the afrenoon making it for me.

In truth I was too tired to eat , but I managed anyway ! She does bake her love for me a lot now.

What would you want GeeZe to do Krusht?

I can;t think of anything that would even scratch the surface of amends other than handing me OMs scrotum on an axe head.

Krusht,

I think I will have to agree with Bob here. I'm not certain there could have been any 'ammends' made for what I did. I spent the first year of recovery wondering what I could do to 'help' or to 'make it up' to him. But nothing really worked.

It took us a long time (a separation, his EA with OW, and filing for D) before we really understood what helped. What truly helped was us both taking responsibility for our mistakes in the M, and our mistakes with the A. I think it also helped my exH that I had spent a lot of time introspectively as to why I did have an A. And we finally got to a point where we could discuss it without the 'raw' emotion attached.

That was truthfully what helped us to heal. He started to realize that I was truly sorry, and that I had indeed taken great measures to prevent against another A (even though we were pretty sure D was the only option for us). Just last Friday, I received a very defensive e-mail from exH....and after I indicated to him that he 'assumed' incorrectly - well, let's say I got (what I felt was the first) a truly honest apology for how he treated me in the M.

Oddly enough, even though we are D'ed, we are now able to trust each other more.

I think more important than the 'ammends' are the changes the WS and BS make in themselves. That's the real measure of progress, IMVHO.

bOb,

""I just rearead a book by Rona Subotnik "surviving infidelity".""

Honest to God, I was reading that last night and came upon the part you speak of. She called it making reparations.

I don't know what I want from Geeze. I guess it's that empty hole resulting from the PA that is not getting filled. Maybe it never will be filled.

k

hmmmmmmmmmm

making amends can (sometimes) come under the heading 'careful what you wish for'

LOL

One of Mr. Pep's amends is to speak up when he is bothered by something ... and he does!

This was a part of our recovery ... him finding his voice, and me finding my ears ...

and in that way ... my amends to him were just as important

I had (have) much to be sorry for .... as does he ... and his affair, as terrible as it was ... it's over ... and there is no going back and fixing it ... just amending the marital problems so we never go there again

I'm with K here, I really would like some kind of gesture from my wife that she understands what she has done and that she is truly sorry. All I get is, I'm not divorcing you and I won't do it again. Therefore I shouldn't have to find a new job, or inform you of when I talk about the affair or our relationshiop to other people.

I don't think a WS should be punished, but they do need to make every effort to make the BS feel like they are truly sorry and regret what they have done to the BS.

It would have helped me if my WH upon discovery would have been the one to immediately find us an MC, begged me to stay with him, jumped on this website, read books related to improving marriages, surviving affairs, etc. Well, he didn't.

Now that we are 2 months into this, I would really like it if he would take the assignments given us by the MC seriously (instead of spending 5 minutes on them), read the books I hand him or look for others on his own, and stop acting like what he did was a minor traffic violation instead of a hit-and-run.

If this is so, then why do you think you are "in recovery"?

IMHO, recovery consists of (1) ending the A, (2) helping BS recover from the trauma of the A, and (3) fixing the problems in the M that led to the A.

You and she aren't really doing (2) and (3), so you aren't in recovery. You are just hanging out with each other waiting for the next lightning bolt from above to come.

To answer you question about amends, what I did was:

I attend counselling; I've worked to make our M better; I've apologized about 1,000,000 times; and I also suffered.

As y'all probably know, my WH and I are far from recovery. I have been alot calmer since talking to SH. Audio tapes are due in tomorrow.

Anyway, all last summer when I KNOW WH was hot into his A, there are fields of brown eyed susans all around here and I was always asking him to pick me some on his way by. Of course, him deep into his A and fog and me deep into LB and hurt - never happened.

He is due home soon and I asked him if he would please pick some of those flowers for me. He said he would and as small a thing as this may or may not be, it is very important to me. Either way. Everyday I drive by those flowers and remember the pain of last summer. How I wished and prayed that he would pick me some. I am really hoping for joy if and when he brings me some. If not - I really can not say how I will feel. Does that make any sense to anyone ? I do not even think I will bring it up again and see if he remembers or not. Perhaps I am looking for a reason not to go - who knows.

Bob -- I know what I do want -- I would love some rhubarb crumble !!! sounds yummy

Carnation

JimmyMac,

OUCH!!

""If this is so, then why do you think you are "in recovery"?""

WHEN DID I SAY I WAS EVER "IN RECOVERY"!! Just kidding, kind of... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

""IMHO, recovery consists of (1) ending the A, (2) helping BS recover from the trauma of the A, and (3) fixing the problems in the M that led to the A.""

1) is done (on Dday) 3) is done and being done..we read the His Needs/Her Needs and have concentrated on the problems that led to the A, went to MC etc. communication and validation.

2) I believe is the thing I am missing. The making amends and/or reparations was my feeble way of searching for #2.

So how does one let their spouse know that this needs to be done?

Thank you JimmyMac, you hit the nail right on the head!!

k

No.

I don't think she knows how.

I don't think it's even possible.

She did say she was sorry she hurt me. Saying sorry is not amends, though.

BTW, JimmyMAc, that you suffered is not amends, just a consequence.

Stopping the A is not making amends either.

krusht: Your experience is pretty common. It seems that when the A ends, depending upon the circumstances, the WS and BS tend to focus exclusively either on (2) or (3), but not both.

If you are working on ENs and communication, then you have a doorway to approach this. Just like you helped her define what she needed out of the M, she needs to help you define what *you* need out of the M--and that includes what you need to "move on" after the A.

Read Carnation's post--she really only wants her FWS to listen to her and understand her.

IMHO, and assuming you're a 'good guy' and not one who wants to torture WS, you probably want her to simply listen to you and understand the pain you felt. In the end, all she can do is listen and understand.

I think what you will find is that you have to tell her about this several times--not because you are vindicative and not because WS doesn't understand, but simply because that is what you need.

Aphelion: No "thing" is ever going to heal a BS's pain. A WS can't go back in time. All a WS can do is to listen and understand. A WS should be someone to share your pain--and if a WS does that, then the WS will suffer too.

If a BS uses the A as a means to control the WS, then the M isn't worth a pile of warm dog sh*t anyway.

If a BS uses the A as a means to control the WS, then the M isn't worth a pile of warm dog sh*t anyway.

Which is exactly how the WS must value their marriage in order to have an affair.

Bob,

My wife claims I am using the affair to control her. Isn't this kind of in the eye of the beholder?

I said, I can't stay married to you if you keep working with the OM and keep going out until 2 am.

She says, "I'm a social person and need to go out" and that you (BS)are insecure and that you are using the affair to control her." She claims that getting a new job would make her miserable and that if I cared for her I wouldn't give her an ultimatum that she has to find a new job. "If she wants to see or talk to the OM, a job change wouldn't stop her."

Am I using the affair to control her behavior. Maybe, but honestly I wasjust trying to set some boundaries and help rebuild trust in our marriage.

GTO,

""I can't stay married to you if you keep working with the OM and keep going out until 2 am.

She says, "I'm a social person and need to go out" ""

Any man, make that spouse, any spouse should and would object to the other spouse going out till 2 am!!! Affair or no affair!! There is only one reason a spouse will go out on the town alone, and it is not a good reason.

Sounds very FOGGY to me.

k

G
NC is not control, it is a cornerstone of recovery.

Your W obviously doesn't understand this.

Ask her
" Do you understand the need to keep NC?"
whatever answer
" Do you see that your working with OM and partying till late hurts me; twists thr knife of your affair?"
whatever answer
" So you know it hurts me but you value working with OM and yoru partying more highly than you value keeping me free from more hurt?"

Follow this chain of thought with her and you will see how to police this boundary.

Any man, make that spouse, any spouse should and would object to the other spouse going out till 2 am!!! Affair or no affair!! There is only one reason a spouse will go out on the town alone, and it is not a good reason.

Not me, K. Squid went out last friday for her friend's birthday until 4 am !

I knew who she was with, she had a great time. She LOVES to par-tay.

Squid knows if she has another A she will be served before the end of the month it occurs in.

I stay out until late sometimes too ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No,my WH didn't make ammends but he did say Sorry.

Sorry,though,was empty without the actions to back it up so I feel like my WH was never truly sorry and we are in a messy D process.

The most important thing/ammend he could have done however,was the NO CONTACT with homewrecker.He couldn't do it so I know how sorry he really was.

O

OK bOb, I'll give you that one about the birthday girl.

I meant the W who goes out with the girls to go dancing!! (unfortunately they don't dance with each other!)

Or the H who goes out with the guys to get sh!#faced on a regular basis.

It's much better if they go out with their spouses to get sh!#faced!!

k