Hey gang,

I've been reading needtotalk's thread about her husband's porn use, and want some advice from those of you who've been helping her, particularly you men who've kicked -- or are working on kicking -- the porn habit.

My story for those of you not farmiliar with it: My H and I have been married 13 years, both work/opposite schedules/weekends off together, two young children. Over the summer, I had an affair. After D-Day, Oct. 31 of this year, my H told me he had been heavily using porn for years. As he put it, it had been an on-and-off again thing throughout our marriage, and had become a nightly thing over the last several years -- an addiction. He says he now knows how destructive it was, and will never use it again, and will get help "if he needs to".

So my question is -- is there any chance he can really give it up forever without help?

On one hand, I believe he's sincere. He has shown evidence of a major paradigm shift. He doesn't even act like the same person -- with me or the kids -- and all of his changes are for the better.

On the other hand, a few things concern me:

1) I had discovered his use of porn 3 or 4 times prior to "the big crisis" (My affair). The first couple of times, there was an angry confrontation followed by a begrudging promise to stop. The last time was different. I was pregnant with our first child and was "in the mood" most of the time. I came downstairs one night to find him -- you know. The next day, I wrote him a letter explaining how it made me feel, especially when I was right upstairs more than willing to provide SF. The tone of the letter was as calm and matter-of-fact as I could make it. He came to me and said he finally understood, and would stop once and for all. But right after our first child was born, I wasn't "in the mood" again for quite awhile, and that's when his really heavy use started. The point being: I believe he was sincere then. I believe he's sincere now. This time, there's more at stake (I was talking "divorce" when we first started marriage counseling, 3 weeks before D-Day). But is that really enough to make him stop cold-turkey without help?

2) He recently told me that, after it got to be a nightly thing (I go to bed early because I go to work at 3:00 am), he sometimes did it "even when he didn't want to". If it was that much of a compulsion, can here really stop without help?

3) He swears he doesn't even have the urge now, and I believe him. On the other hand, after we got over the initial shock and hurt of our revelations -- my affair and his porn use -- it's like we've been getting to know each other all over again. Like we're newlyweds or something. I can't imagine that will last forever, and when it starts to wear off, what happens? What are the chances he'll slip back into his old behaviors and be too ashamed to tell me?

4) How do I talk to him about this? He has been soooo amazing, the way he has reacted to my affair. He asked me some questions on D-day, and a few questions a couple of days later. He was a little suspicious about a package that came in the mail, and about a couple of calls on a recent phone bill (all innocent) but other than that, hasn't brow-beaten me or snooped on me (that I know of) at all. I feel bad suggesting that I don't trust him about the porn when he's been so willing to forgive and move on from the affair.

5) Our marriage counselor suggested a book about sex addictions for him to read. ("Out of the Shadows" I believe). As far as I know, he hasn't gotten it and doesn't intend to.

6) Can I trust that if he does slip-up, he will either tell me or seek help on his own?

I really want to trust this man. If you know my story from my other threads, you know that he has been incredible about everything from the beginning. Some of the other posters who've followed our story from the beginning have refered to him as "a hero in the making". I agree. Again, I believe he's sincere. But is he fooling himself?

Look forward to insight from those of you who've "been there".

--SC

Been there SC!! Still fighting this battle.

Okay, sounds like your husband is a lot like me. I want SF a lot. Twice a day would suit me fine. And I'm not kidding.

On the otherhand, I havent heard of many women that can or want to keep up that pace.

Do I have a sex addiction? Maybe. I have talked with counselors about it. The thing is...I did go cold turkey from sex with my wife and turned away from porno during much of my wife's affair. And the desire to substitute the porno for my wife has not returned. So I doubt that I am truly "addicted."

You see, I was much like your husband because the first few years, even with having babies, my wife kept up pretty well with what I wanted. Shoot, I'd say half the time, she was the one initiating it. But money problems and other issues began to creep in. Both of us became more tired. And I really didnt want to hurt her or cause problems.

So, the though goes that if I just go and take care of things, she doesnt have to feel pressured. And everyone is happy, right? How wrong I was. There were times she was waiting upstairs and I was downstairs. I had no idea what that was doing to her...or to me. I na weird way, I thought I was doing the right thing. Now dont get me wrong, we were still having a pretty good sex life. But the times between, when I would do that, made her feel inadequate.

Now, where does that leave me...leave us? Not sure. We are still workign that thru. I do know and have expressed to my wife that I dont want someone else, and dont want porno. I dont even want to be without her when any type of SF is going on. But I have also expressed that when we were married, I had a very high sex drive, as did she. And my sex drive has not abated.

So, our problem is how do I get my need met adequately without my wife wanting it that much? It is a huge question.

Now, for someone to come along and say "Well, you just have a sex addiction. You need to get help." I see that as someone saying "you shouldnt want sex so much." And my response is "Huh?!?!" What is the problem with wanting sex from my wife? And if I desire her twice a day, what is wrong with that? Someone might say "Well, that is too much!" Says who? Who makes the rules on what is too much?

Obviously, it is the husband and wife that should make those rules. The issue is that in a marriage like mine (and it appears yours too), the rules changed for my wife...but not for me. I still want SF as much, or more, at age 41 as I did at age 29 when we married.

So, where does a guy turn to when he cant get the need met? Porno? Well, that isnt the right answer. An affair? Nope, not the right answer either. Divorce? That might solve the problem, but still not the right answer. So, short of porno, adultery or divorce...what is that guy supposed to do? Go see someone that can help him want sex less? As if wanting it more makes it somethign wrong with him? Again, another wrong answer.

So, what is the right answer? I dont know...I still havent heard a compelling answer for this question. And while porno is no longer an issue in our marriage, the underlying problem still remains and is still as source of resentment and a barrier to getting even closer together.

If we are to meet each others needs, we have to meet them in a way that they need. If my wife's number one need is financial security, then that need must be met in a way that makes her financially secure, not me. If her number two is affection, then meeting that need would mean being affectionate in a way that meets that need for her.

Same goes for me. If my number one need is SF, that wouldnt it reason that my wife should meet that need somehow in the way I need it met? And if that is true, then does that mean she has to do things when she doesnt feel like it, or do things she doesnt want to do...all to meet my needs?

It is a paradox! Of course, there has to be compromise. But for a guy that would like SF twice a day, then twice a week isnt much of a compromise.

I hope I am making some sort of sense here, because I am still searching for the answer to this question. SC, I believe that your husband desires you more than anything. But, he may have a problem being satiated, especially when you went thru that period of disinterest.

I look forward to everyone's ideas here.

In His arms.

Sorry, I didn't kick the habit- the wife and I embraced it... Read my post in NNT's thread to maybe get a glipmse into why the compulsion is there to begin with, and why it continues.

I personally don't feel I dishonour my wife by viewing pornography. There's simply times I'm just a horny toad, and I feel like doing "it". It doesn't however stop me from getting crazy with the wife later in the day as well!! In fact, telling her of the experience really turns her on!

In short, if it's replacing the sex with you, it's not a good thing, but I feel it can serve it's purpose in a healthy relationship.

Hi SmartCookie,

I'm still struggling (as you know by reading Need's thread) with the trust issue. This one sentence jumps out at me:

"As far as I know, he hasn't gotten it (Out of the Shadows) and doesn't intend to."

This is the biggest red flag I've seen in all the work I'm doing trying to recover from the shock of his lies. If he isn't interested in getting outside help to stop an activity that he can't stop even when he doesn't want to do it, then he isn't taking his problem seriously enough. He can't do this on his own. He has to talk to others who've been there, who have learned the tools needed to shortcurcuit his need for pornography. That need is not going to go away on its own - unfortunately.

Visit www.sexaddict.com and www.sexhelp.com. They are run by Douglas Weiss and Patrick Carnes. Patrick Carnes is the pioneer of sexual addiction help. My husband's SAA group uses Carnes' stuff.

I found a great resource in Douglas Weiss's books. I believe Dr. Weiss is a recovering addict. I know he offers phone counselling sessions and intensive workshops.


Good luck.

I have kicked the porn habit for 2.5 years, along with compulsive masturbation, strip joints, affairs, etc. so it can be done. But, it takes work and accountability. I started with the book Out of the Shadows. Another excellent book is Breaking Free by Russell Willingham.

There is an intense workship in Nashville, Tennessee for a week dealing with sex addiction. You can see their information at www.bethesdaworkshops.org They also have workshops to help the spouses of those struggling with sex addiction.

Oh, and the best part about my kicking away the bad parts, I got to keep my wife of 26 years. She gave me a chance to deal with my problems when I didn't deserve her grace. But then, I didn't deserve the Lord's grace either and He forgave me too.

To Mortarman:

HOW DARE YOU. How dare you want SF from your wife so much. How dare you put her in an uncomfortable position and expect her to place importance on what is clearly YOUR need. How dare you, sir !!!

Oh wait, I was just playing the devil's advocate.

Women often don't realize that they put men in uncomfortable situations and expect us to sail through with ease, but when they are put in an uncomfortable position: LOOK OUT !!

Is it unfair of a wife to expect her husband to talk about something that he doesn't want to talk about?

Is it unfair of a husband to expect his wife to help him with his sexual desires?

Just a couple of questions.

Relationships can be such a catch-22.

There are some really good discussions going on right now on the issue of porn in a marriage. I am glad for it.
Many times, in the past, I wanted to start a thread about porn use, but I was afraid of getting the standard responses of: it is normal for men, it is no big deal, men are visual...

My Ex was way into porn. the magazines, the movies on the TV, occasional strip clubs. He didn't look at it on the internet at home, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did at work.

I wish I could describe how it feels, as a woman, to walk into your bedroom and see your H in bed looking at naked women. I felt dumb, fat, and ugly.
(by the way I don't want to hear about how some men and women enjoy it together. I tried that too. it just seemed to increase his use both with me and seperate from me. If I watched a movie with him, it some how made it ok for him to watch it whenever he felt like it)

I have told my story several times lately, so I won't dwell on it, other than to say I feel like porn use is a progresive issue - it starts small and gets bigger.

In my case, as time went by, I felt uglier all the time. I would walk by a mirror and think to myself "I am plain, I am heavy, I just don't look pretty anymore" My WxH and I were still having SF 2 - 3 times a week, and I was still enjoying it, but it wasn't great. I was not feeling loved, or cherished, or respected. His constant request for us to be naked in public, on top of the roof of our house, in the front yard during the day when the neighbors could watch, etc, made me feel inadequate. I wanted to be held. To have him look at me and say "Wow, you are a beautiful woman!" but I was faced with his porn every day.
When he left, he said several things that still hurt me today. One of them was "You never dressed sexy enough for me"
Huh? You left your wife and two boys becuase I never dressed sexy enough for you? (mind you all of my underwear and lingerie is from Victorias Secret, and I do not dress like a prude)
I feared that I would never find a man who was not "into" porn, but decided that I would rather be single forever before I would marry another porn addict.

But I met a man who is not into porn. And I am married to him today. And Our SF is better than I could ever imagine. because I feel loved, and cherished, and respected! I never wlak into ur bedroom and see him with a magizine. He doesn't watch porn movies, instead we are able to watch movies togther, snuggled up on the couch.

I never told my new H about the crappy "you don't dress sexy enough for me" line. But he has commented to me before "I want my wife to dress conservatively. I don't want other men to see how beautiful her body is!" Let me tell you, that a statment like that makes me want to tear his clothes off and have my way with him right then and there! When my husband tells me how beautiful I am, outside of the bedroom, in the middle of the day, when he clearly is not trying to "get anything" from me, it stores up another type of deposit in my love bank. It stores up deposits that make me want to rip his clothes off, and have wild passionate SF with him. When he treats me with respect, when he says "have I told you today that you are the best wife in the world" it stores up love deposits in my SF bank, until it overflows. certainly we are still in the honeymoon stage of our M - but it has almost been a year now, and we still have SF almost every single day - and yes sometimes twice a day. when he compliments me like this, outside of the bedroom, during the middle of the day, it is an awesome thing.
I know this may sound confusing to many men - but when you compliment a woman, in the dark, in bed, it just doesn't feel sincere. It feels like a comment that is made in the hopes of getting lucky.

In my first marriage, when I would see my husband looking at porn it would deduct a lot of points from my love bank. I can remember many times, feeling a little sexy, looking for my H to kiss him on the neck, only to find him looking at a magazine, or surfing the Cinemax channels for an X rated film. Instantly, I would lose all desire for SF with him. Instantly. He will never know how many times he could have had the real thing, but he chose the movies instead.

I know that men will say "we aren't comparing you to the magazines" but it feels that way, anyway. Also, I think that the time he spent watching X rated movies was time he could have spent with me. Watching something we both could enjoy. Or talking, or taking a walk, finding someway just to hang out and spend time together. Instead, he turned on cinemax, knowing that I would leave the room to read a book, alone. that doesn't feel loving. and it doesn't make deposits in the SF Love bank. heck, I love to watch sports. we could have spent the time watching football, baseball, basketball, you name it. I was not looking to watch "chick flicks" even. I just wanted a shared activity.


one last thing, that works for me. when my new H and I are in church, and he is totally into worshiping God, he is the sexiest man I know. When he is paying attention to the sermon, singing the worship songs, laughing at the pastors dumb jokes, and actively participating, he is sexy to me. When we go to Bible study, and he gets involved in a discussion, he is sexy to me. I guess it is because he is actively sharing in something that is very important to me. It is an activity we share together, and when he gets invloved, without complaining or acting like he would rather not be there, it makes me feel good. It makes me happy to be with him. and in return I want to do anything I can to make him feel good, to make him feel like he is happy to be with me. Get my point?

Miss cookie,

You know I admire ya - from your other post.

My question to you is you are trying to help your husband so much and that is fantastic as I think it's essential to your maritial recovery for your husband to get this under control.

BUT (I am the party pooper I know)

I am worried that you may be using this to escape having to look at yourself (if I am wrong sorry - boards are so limited to insight you have into someones life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I just want to make sure that even though you are guys are a team and you are helping him, that you let him work with a councellor and work on it and that you keep focusing on YOU - because you ahve some big problems to solve too - they why's of why you had an affair, the ability to protect yourelf again in the future - caue what if 5 years down the road your H has a slip...are you going to cheat again? You can say never again right now easily - but what will you have done to really make changes to prevent that...how deep have you looked into your soul.

I read that your H is seeing a councellor and admits his problem and wants to change - now support him, but leave it with him.

Keep YOUR focus on you...keep diggin in YOU and fix in you what YOU need to change as well K?

SC,

Perhaps I can offer a slightly different look at the porn issue. Let's go back to Harley's definition of emotional needs and what do we find? We find that sexual satisfaction is an emotional need.

SC, there are two components of sex, the physical and the emotional, which one does porn fill? I would say neither. I would say Porn is a way of escaping from reality for men. It is a fantasy but it can have real consequences. I think that they are distance both physical and emotional.

I am sure some are truely addicted, just as one can be addicted to exercise and ignore ones family in search for the endorphin high. But, what I am driving at here is that you need to look at this differently in my view.

Your H has chosen porn in the past to escape. I think it represents a lack of emotional connection with you and perhaps a need to escape from the pressures of his life. I would strongly recommend that you talk about this, but from the standpoint that YOU want to provide for this "emotional" need. Yes, this means the physcial aspect of SF, but if you recognize that he needs the emotional part you will begin to see this much more deeply.

As an example perhaps I should point out what a climax does for men. Obviously it feels good, but it does something very subtle. One of the reasons men rarely die of a heart attack while having sex although the heart rate does often skyrocket is that once climax occurs, a hormone is released to slow the heart down. This hormone is a sedative, which is why men often fall asleep at night afterwards, especially at night if they are tired. Now it turns out that this hormone is released no matter how this climax is reached, thus a male that is tense or has trouble sleeping can "self medicate" themselves this way.

Just a sleeping pills can become addictive or indespensible for someone to go to sleep so can this. That is why I mentioned stress in his life.

What I am driving at is that his porn use may represent more than you realize and yet something you two can address with talking, some changes in how you two interact, and openness on his part about what he is feeling both sexually and emotionally. I suspect that he has chosen to "protect" himself via the porn and I think that if he comes to believe that YOU can protect him, his need for it will diminish while his need for you will increase.

So be very careful about complaining about this because I believe that if there is to be a solution YOU have to be willing to step up and do what you have never done, protect him emotionally as well as provide the physical interaction. You see I think he has known for a long time that YOU did not care and he has taken matters into his "own hands" so to speak.

I realize you say that he had this habit before he married you, but you see unless he was out chasing women all of the time, this is actually pretty normal rather than sleeping with whoever or whatever. What should have changed is how you superceeded this need and... it is an emotional need.

Being a guy I can tell you that for most men, they are fantasizing not so much about the physical appearance of the women you see but their attitude toward sex and toward them. It is a fantasy that can be replaced in my opinion.

I am NOT blaming you, what I am saying is that you CAN be part of the solution. It is claimed that we often don't break addictions but replace them with another one. I would like to suggest that he can and may well replace this addiction with being addicted to you. Can you handle that?

Think about it.

Hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

Hummmmm......

I think JL is on to something here. My coach keeps telling me it's an intimacy problem with my husband.

It is hard to admit, but I don't think my husband has felt protected by me. I did the best I could, but unfortunately, until he can feel it himself, nothing I do will help. And I've got to learn that just 'cuz he can't accept it doesn't mean I get to run wild.....

This is where I think Dorry is right too. He has to work on himself. For far too long my H expected me to fix him, and when I can't even fix myself, we just spiral down together.

Can you handle your H being addicted to you? I'm not sure that I could handle mine being addicted to me - at least not yet. But I'm working on me, so maybe I'll be able to face my intimacy fears too.

Figure out what you expect from your husband in his journey away from porn. POJA with him about that. Then let him go at it. Work on yourself.

LOL. I'm preaching to the choir. I got to learn me that same song!

Post deleted by Suzet*

Dorry, JL, Solost,

Thanks for cutting through the BS and getting to the heart of the matter. Once again -- you all have hit the bull's eye!!! In my particular case, this really isn't about differences in men's and women's sex drives or whether or not it's okay for men to watch porn. And it certainly isn't about whether my H and I want to start watching it together! GOOD GRIEF!

It's about the fact that I was not meeting my husband's emotional needs, so he turned to porn (and sports, and drinking, and gambling) to numb himself. As a result, he became so wrapped up in that stuff that it bacame a vicious cycle -- more of that stuff, less of us, more of that stuff, less of us. I contributed to it by shutting him out. Got it.

Yes Dorry, you're right. I need to keep focusing on myself -- both how I contributed to the deterioration of my marriage and why I had an affair (which are intertwined). I have just begun, with the help of or MC, to dig into my own insecurities and destructive habits that make me so quick to shut out people who hurt me and so needy of attention and admiration, especially from men (the superficial kind of a&a, of course, not the scarey intimate kind) Workin' on it.

The only reason I started this thread was to ask the question: Is it possible for someone who had become so compulsive about his porn use that he sometimes did it "even when he didn't want to" to totally give it up without some specialized counseling?

Our MC has suggested that the best way to affair-proof and porn-proof our marriage in the future is for us to build a truely intimate relationship with each other -- sounds to me like the same thing you said in much greater detail in your post, JL. So, I think I have my answer: My husband's porn use was not so much an addiction, as a way to cope. A destructive way to cope. Replace it with a constructive way to cope, and it can be overcome.

I am more fortunate than many of the women now struggling with this issue around here. I know my husband has stopped and wants to make it permanent. He has already demonstrated that he's willing and able to make personal changes for the better. I now have to trust that he will work on any underlying issues that made him want to "take the easy way out". My role will be to protect him and provide for him. Love as a verb. Work on me. Wow -- you wouldn't beleive how good I feel right now. Not that I think it will be easy (just simple, right JL and MM?) But it feels good to GET IT!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

MY HEARTFELT THANKS

I would like to add some caution to your thoughts. I am a recovering sex addict working with recoving sex addicts and the vicious cycle is correct, addiction is a cycle. And addiction applies to sex, porn, drinking, gambling, food, shopping, etc.... anything that is out of control, done to mask emotions and typically hidden from others.

The caution I want to throw in is that there is usually more of a problem than just meeting ENs. As one person said about, sex addiction is an intimacy problem. It may even be that the person is not able to express their emotional needs due to the intimacy problem and therefore ends up back in the addictive cycle.

Thanks AM,

I will keep your insight in mind. Right now, my husband and I are in MC, but not IC. Our counselor seems to be skilled at handling all of the issues that have come up so far. We just started talking about the porn during our last session two weeks ago. I'm sure we'll be working on the underlying issues as we move forward. (next session is tomorrow)

My husband and I have said from the beginning that we don't just want to "salvage" our marraige. We are on a quest for true intimacy. Neither of us seems to have an internal road map for that in place yet. But we seem to have some good guides -- our MC and the people here.

Thanks.

Simple.

In His arms.

Well... here we go again....

Things have been going pretty well. Not perfect. But pretty well.

We've both been working hard to meet each other's EN's.

Two weeks ago, I fessed up about some credit card debt my H didn't know about and he helped me put together and impliment a plan to consolidate the debt and get it paid off. Good for me for being honest about something embarassing, and that I knew he might be angry about. And good for him for not freaking out on me.

Last weekend, our daughter turned six and we held a little birthday party for her at our home. H helped out enthusiastically -- videotaping stuff, serving up pizza, etc. I was so delighted with his participation (he would have done it in the past, but sort of begrudgingly) that I spontaneously grabbed him and planted one on him and thanked him. He liked that alot -- I could tell.

I've been in IC for about a month now... and although it's hard... I've been tackling my issues head-on. H says that he's proud of me for being so brave.

We've been having better sex than... I can ever remember, actually. And more of it. In fact, if you'll excuse the detail here, 3X over the weekend. Saturday morning, Saturday night, and Sunday morning. Then, Sunday night (last night) I awoke out of a dead sleep around 11:00 with a gut feeling that I should go downstairs. Sure enough... there he was... watching porn on the internet.

I stood there for what seemed like a long time, trying to decide what to say/how to handle it. Finally I made my presence known and just said, calmly, "You need to get help. You said you would get help if you couldn't stop on your own. You need to get help."

I felt sorry for him. He was obviously humiliated.

He said that he was sorry... that it was stupid... that he didn't need it... that he knew he had disrespected me... that he was ashamed... that the whole idea was to be honest with each other and he had lied to me.

He said he had gone "a long time" without it and had just done it a little bit over the last month or so. So, if he's telling the truth about that, "a long time" means 6-8 weeks without it.

I asked him "why" and he said, "Well, things had been going better between us lately..." which I don't get at all. What's that supposed to mean? That I can trust him as long as there's a danger that I'll leave him, but when things are going well, he'll let himself slip back into his old habits? That's exactly what I've been telling him is my biggest fear.

He didn't seem to want to finish the sentence... so I ventured, "...So, you figured you could safely dabble in it again?" And he said, "Yeah, something like that." To which I said, "Well, I think we've seen how easily it can get out of hand, so I don't think that was a very good choice on your part." I also told him I think he needed to dig a little deeper to figure out why.

He called me at work this morning and told me again how sorry he was "on many different levels" and said he wanted to talk more tonight. Also thanked me for the way I'm handling it. I told him that was fine, and that we'd figure it out.

Thing is... I don't even feel angry or hurt. I haven't cried about it at all -- and I'm a big-time crier. But I don't think my lack of emotion here is necessarily a good thing. It's almost like I don't care. The ol' wall is back up. I guess I sort of expected it, but still.

Anyway, I'm not really sure where we go from here. I mean, I think this is evidence that it really is an addiction. I would say our intimacy and SF levels are at or near an all-time high in our marriage... so the stuff MM wrote about needing more sex, and the stuff JL wrote about needing more of an emotional connection and using the porn as an escape may have been applicable in the past. But things are different now. I just don't know what to think or do.


Anyone have any insight?

--SC

Post deleted by kyellow4

Smartestcookie,

You two our working on changing a habit your husband has practiced since he 13 or 14 years old. Old habits are difficult to break.

A couple things stand out above which give me great hope for your husband tackling this problem:

1. He is slowly opening up and including you in discussions about this formerly secretive part of himself (intimacy)

2. He has obviously changed his perspective on porn use...he sees the harm and wants to change.

3. You have changed your perspective as well...your husband's problem no longer results in anger and hurt but concern for how WE can fix this problem in OUR marriage.

Looks very promising to me.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

bump ^

{{{SC}}} i read this shortly after you posted but just did not know what to say. life can be so difficult!!!

do you think it is possible that you lack of feelings is partially because you now understand deep down that his actions do NOT reflect on you?? did you feel that way in the past?

i also think you handled it very well. staying calm is always good!!

but don't close down on him. try to keep that wall down.

(((((SC))))))
What just happened to you is exaclty what I'm afraid my H will do. The difference is that he doesn't seem sorry, so I'm having a terrible time trying to let go. i fear that he will simply do things to pacify the sit. and go on doing whatever he wants.

You handled it very well. pat on the back.

SC,

You said
I think you lack of emotions is found on something other than your wall. I think it is because you aren't surprised that he failed, or had a relapse. Further, you KNOW he loves you and finds you attractive, so you aren't as threatened by the porn.

Having said that, I also want to say that you have handled this perfectly in my estimation. I think you should talk to him. First, he needs to agree to see a counselor and address this. But, I also think you need to demystify this whole porn thing abit. Talk to him about it, ask him what he finds attractive, is there something he wants to act on?

Next ask him if this is about relaxation and escape or fantasy. As you get him to talk about this, I think some interesting things will happen. One you two have talked about some very very hard subjects in the past and probably will again. So the door is NOW open to talking. Second, you did catch him and I would bet good money he is humiliated that you did, but he is shocked at your response. You were NOT mad.

This means he may feel safe to talk with you. I will offer you some advice when you ask him a question about this. ASK ONE QUESTION, and then sit there until he answers it. It may take minutes before he can formulate the answer. There are two reasons for this. First, men don't normally talk about feelings, so they have not created the phrasing and descriptions necessary to adequately convey their feelings. Second reason is that I am betting your H does NOT really know what he gets out of porn. So it will take him some considerable thought to try and get out what it is he is getting from it.

It may be fantasy that he NEVER really wants to see come to be real. It may be him remembering his youth, it may be just plain escape, not from you, or the kids, but just from life. One thing studies have found that men seem to have more of a need to dream than women. I am not sure that is right given how many women love romance novels, and TV soaps. IN some ways these things are the female equivalent of porn, with regard to the escapism aspects.

My main point is open a dialogue, not so much to solve this problem (the counselor should be able to do that with your H), but so that you understand him better, so that HE understands himself better, and so that it becomes something he can be more honest about. I am betting he is really really embarrassed about this weakness of his.

SC, this may sound strange to you, but oddly this may be a good thing for your marriage. Your H is still dealing with your A, but has been very good about not accusing you AND HE has changed alot even by your own admission. What now needs to take place is more open and deeper conversations about his need for porn AND about YOUR thoughts and feelings toward him and your A.

I don't think it is a threat to your marriage or his love for you directly. It may be a threat to how you see yourself in his life. I think you handling like you have so far and hopefully when you talk tonight will help shine more light into some dark places and further open your heart and his heart.

SC, this is an OPPORTUNITY as far as I can tell. Use it and I think you will be more deeply rewarded. You are going to learn more and more about your H and some of it may not be pretty, and yet despite his failings he has accomplished more than many. Just remember that as well.

None of us are perfect save "thee and me and I wonder about thee". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Right??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are doing well and all in all so is your H. Have that talk and don't be discouraged.

God Bless,

JL

kyellow -- Why did you delete your post? I thought the stuff you wrote was right on target -- about changing behaviors not being enough, and needing to dig a little deeper. And not feeling safe until he does. Like you said, when you have an affair, it's not enough to just stop it. You have to do your homework to figure out why you did it in the first place, and then put safeguards in place to make sure it doesn't happen again. Why should a porn habbit/addiction/whatever you want to call it be any different?

Mr W -- Thanks for your optimism. It probably has some merit. But it's not like he opened-up willingly. Just a couple of weeks ago, I asked him if he was having any trouble with urges that he might need some help with. He told me no, absolutely not, he didn't even crave it, and he knew that if he did indulge, it would reduce his desire for me, which he didn't want to happen.

FL & ntt -- thanks for the hugs. <sigh> I just don't know. I am closing down. Can't seem to help it.

I guess I'll just wait to see what he has to say tonight. All that stuff about using it as a diversion, to dull his own pain... blah, blah, blah... seems more like a convenient excuse than a real reason now. That may be a big part of the reason why it escalated, but it's obviously not the root of the problem. Why didn't I see it before? Actually, I think I did but it was just easier to look the other way and take him at his word.

It makes me realize that I really have no control over the situation. I mean, I can maybe take away some of the temptation by meeting his needs. But I've been busting my tail to do that lately and it didn't stop him. In fact, it appears the better job I did, the less vigilant he became about holding-up his end of the bargain. He's the one who has to figure out 'why', and 'how' to stop it. The only thing I know for sure is that another proclamation that "I get it now" is not going to be enough this time. Been there. Done that.

You know what ntt -- I don't necessarily think this will be comforting, but it doesn't seem to matter whether they act sorry or not when it comes to this issue. My H was soooo sorry... real tears... a life-changing moment... a wake-up call... an understanding about how destructive it was... blah, blah, blah. So what?

--SC

Has IC helped you much. I've been thinking about it. Also starting to wonder if it has become an OCD thing for me. Little things trigger such deep feelings. H was talking to his friend about how much he missed his younger years and all I could think of was that he missed the freedom of doing/going were ever he wanted (going out, going to strip clubs while I was away at college-being faithful to a tee, I only went to one party in my two years there!), although it seems that that actually never changed.

Hi SC -

I agree with the others. You handled the situation very well.

From everything you've written that I've read, I believe your husband does want to change. A person can't make the scope of changes - and maintain those changes - without being genuine.

On the other hand, as JL (I think) pointed out, old habits die hard. Without knowing your husband, I'm willing to bet that he feels somewhat trapped. He wants to stop, but just doesn't have the internal strength to kick it, no matter how badly he wants to.

The fact that he's willing to talk to you, and that you approached it in such a loving yet firm way, probably goes a long way to strengthening his resolve.

Sex addiction and porn use is, unfortunately, very prevalent among men, especially with the rise of the internet. I work as a web application developer, and the running joke in the industry is that almost all of the technologies we take for granted now (streaming video, credit card verification, etc) were pioneered by the porn industry. There's more truth than fiction in that.

I can tell you from personal experience that it's insidious, and can creep in when you least expect it. As I mentioned on my old thread, I had a voyeuristic streak. Despite MP wanting a monogamous relationship with only me, I persisted in this not so little fantasy of mine, and she eventually started using it to get me going. In the process, I stripped her of almost all (if not all) of her intimate feelings for me. In counseling, when it was brought up to our counselor, he labeled it a sex addiction.

I would humbly suggest a couple of things, based on my own experience. First, try and get Mr Cookie to open up about it with you, and see if he can understand what it does to him. I realized, once my eyes were opened in the midst of our crisis, that not only had I robbed my wife of intimate feelings for me, but I had also robbed myself of intimate feelings for her. I relegated her in many ways to the role of a sex object, all the while telling myself that it was a harmless little fantasy and no one would get hurt. I was, for the longest time, even fine with the idea of her actually acting out this fantasy of mine, as long as she came back to me. (One aside for clarification - I did not want her to do anything with the OM, and I told her that. But the damage was already done...if I valued her so little, or gave the appearance of valuing her so little, and was not meeting her needs and making her feel unloved, why should she hold herself to my wishes).

Second, ask him if he's willing to be totally accountable to you (and/or someone else - perhaps a strong male friend)? I have told my wife that I no longer have that desire, that I do not want to share her, and I do not allow those thoughts to take hold in my mind. I have told her that she is free to check the history of my browser and or the files on my computer anytime she wants. I have nothing to hide, and as part of my own personal housecleaning I have dumped everything that I ever had on my system that even remotely related to that, and have not gone to any of those websites in over 2 months. I also realize that I have to be on guard against this, probably for the rest of my life. As I shared with MP and our counselor, the whole thing scares me now, because I can feel it lurking in the back of my mind, just waiting for me to let down my guard and pounce on me.

Porn is a terrible thing, and it's not innocent. I think a lot of people (not necessarily you) tend to overlook the effect it has on the users. It's like any other drug - you need more and more to get the same high you got the day before, and the day before that.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the issue. I think you and Mr. Cookie have something very important in your corner - a desire to make your marriage all it should be, and the ability to honestly communicate. Hang in there.

SC,

Ask him to back up his new promises tonight with some actions. For example, he must install a keylogger program on his computer which is password protected and running at all times. They can be set up to activate automatically at upon start up. Only you would know the password. Viewing porn is a violation and turning off the keylogger is an equal transgression. You become his accountability partner. His problem becomes your (him and you) problem and you will help him.

This will also allow you to sleep soundly and not fret everytime he gets out of bed to go teetee.

Just an idea.

Mr. Wondering

JL,

You always have so many little golden nuggets in your post that I have to read them about 20 times to make sure I get them all. As ususal, I think you're pretty much on target.

Part of the reason that I'm not all bent out of shape IS, as you say, that I'm not surprised and not as threatened as I used to be. But there's also some apathy which is what I've been trying to so hard to overcome these last several weeks and months. And I'm not so sure this isn't a direct threat. I mean, I've already seen in the past how easily he can replace me with this stuff.

And remember, it had become a nightly thing. "Sometimes I'd do it even when I didn't really want to." I'm no expert. But that would indicate to me that it goes beyond escape or fantasy. I believe that's what they call a "compulsion."

But the bottom line is, we do need to talk about it. And I need to be curious not furious, and really LISTEN. I can do that. And yes, I am keeping it in perspective.

Thanks,
--SC

ntt -- I think IC is helping. It's not easy. In fact, I usually come out of the sessons feeling emotionally, mentally, and physically drained. But I also realize that's part of the process.

Bird -- Thank you so much for your insights. I know how prevalent this stuff is on the internet. I was doing a search for something once when I was pregnant and ended up on this porn site featuring pregnant women (nice, huh?) and COULDN'T GET OUT OF IT. The more I clicked on the X's, the more junk popped up. Freaked me right out! lol. Unfortunately, he knows a lot more about computers than I do, and he knows a way to delete sites out of the history. Maybe the key logger thing Mr Wondering mentioned would work. I've seen that mentioned before. I hate the idea of being "his mom". But I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. I also think you're right about how hard it is to break a habit like this. Bottom line, I don't think it's possible unless you really dig into the underlying issues/reasons. I guess I'll find out tonight if he's ready to take that step.

--SC

Change of perspective.

You are not to be his mom....he must voluntarily ask you to be his accountiblity PARTNER. In the interests of being (not becoming) "ONE" with him, his problems are necessarily yours as well. Help him ONLY if he truly wants your help.

If he is good with computers you may need to be diligent to discover if he finds a way to bypass your keylogger program. There may be signs to look for in the logs to discover this. Get a good program and have him teach you how to use it and even discuss anyway he can think of today to get around it...if he wants help he should be forthright with you to you both can close the doors to opportunity completely.

Much like any addicition, no contact needs to be observed and maintained to insure any independent and/or marital counseling on the subject is actually fruitful.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

Thanks Mr. Wondering. I think I get it... though I reserve the right to ask more questions later!

SC -
xxxchurch.com is a progressive anti-porn org. They have accountability software that can be downloaded that allows him to be accountable to another person automatically should he so desire. Challenge him to check them out. On the surface they seem a bit over the edge but then again, so was Paul when he went out into the world with his ministry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It may prove to be a helpful resource for him.

Hi SM,

I dont know if you want my input (even though you asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) ... after all the talk and agreements, catching him that last time, I would have had him pack a bag and got to a motel for the night. I'm very serious. You've gone the 'nice' route, gloves come off, now. He's obviously OK with lying to you about it, he obviously isnt afraid he's going to loose his marriage over it. I think a night in a lonely hotel room would have done him some good.

As others have said, accountability is crucial - I'd have a key logger on the computer tonight. Of course he can get it anywhere, but keeping it out of the house is important (like keeping alcohol out of the house with a newly sober alcoholic).

I think you BOTH need to read the SA books. Patrick Carnes has a few, AM suggested another. After this last incident, he should be agreeable to these readings.

See what he has to say and go from there. Again, I'm now super hard-nosed about all of this. Either it's a problem and he needs to get help, or it wasnt, in which case he would have stopped by now. I'd insist on him getting professional help since he's proved over and over that he cannot deal with this on his own. Then I'd let him deal with it.

I tell you, after so many dozens of these conversations with my H I finally said 'We have different ideas on what marriage should be... I made a mistake, we need to D'. And that was it. Everything changed. But it wasnt going to change as long as I put up with it.

(for those who dont know my story, I thought porn was neat and fun... H took it to a whole other level. I'm not a prude, but H ruined porn for us both).

Good luck tonight - Dru

SC:

Sorry I missed this post until now. I will add my little tidbits of info from my own sitch for whatever they are worth. I am a recovering pornaholic. Although I had urges and instances of misuse of porn prior to the advent of the internet, things got out of control when it became all too readily available on the internet about ten years ago...remember what was going on in my life ten years ago??

I have not viewed any porn in more than a year, I kicked this habit prior to D-day and without professional help (except as noted from the real professional.) However, since D-Day, I have discussed this use and abuse in my history in depth with both my FWW and my IC as well as numerous conversations with our priest over the last three years. My IC says that the ability of anyone to basically kick the habit cold turkey without professional help is extremely rare especially if it is cojoined with a SA tendency.

I would like to say that my initial abuse of porn was an individual decision that I took on my own and was not related to what was going on in my M at the time. Although I own my porn abuse 100% just as my FWW owns her A, it would be nonsensical to think that the environment that allowed the affair didn't also allow the porn use.

As to how that I stopped, it was in my belief a devine intervention...but an intervention that I started because my porn use although more progressive over time was less fulfilling over time. I may have thought that I was filling a need at first that my wife wasn't meeting. I wish that was the case, but if I am honest with myself, the use of porn for me was probably very similar in many ways to my FWW's A...the secrecy, the rush of adreniline, etc. Problem was that as this abuse ran it's course, I needed more (both time and graphic) but it was never quite enough. At one point, when I was at my office late, by myself and had wasted an entire evening when I could have been at home with my wife and kids or at least getting some work done that needed to be done. I hit a low point in my life and something had to change. Although I have had occassional relapses and for sure the urge when I am bored, I have been able to beat this addiction.

That is not to say that my urge is any less strong than an alcoholic who will most likely struggle the rest of their life with the thought of what would just one drink hurt, I know that the reality is all or none...there is no in between.

Since D-day and our openess in our marriage, the urge has been less for several reasons. First, without question my needs are being met better and so this is less of an alternative. Secondly, with radical honesty, I would feel obliged to tell my wife if I had slipped even if she didn't find out, therefore, RH has imposed a kind of accountability that is important in beating any type of addiction. Lastly, I just don't have time. To keep the committment to spending 15 hrs/week of UA with my FWW, being a better and more active husband and father and focusing on running my business without trying to have the procrastionation escape of the porn, I just had to make time management choices and that was one that was easy to leave behind. However, I still have to pray for strength to keep my on track at least several times a week if not daily. I crossed the line and I cannot go back there, no matter how tempting. To me this boundary is no less than an alcoholic being totally sober or a FWS having no opposite sex friends without others present.

I cannot tell you if Mr. Cookie Monster can beat this without professional help or not, but I can tell you that even with a cold turkey approach, it is likely that relapses will occur. They did for me, but the relapses became more distant and spread out over time until at some point, the urge was just less prevalent than the consequences.

Encourage Mr. Cookie Monster to share those urges with you. When he has a relapse (very often followed closely after very good SF for some reason) don't be too quick to assume that this is indicative of how he feels about you or that you did not fulfill him. It is almost the opposite, when SF is really good or better than ever, for some reason the urge comes back looking to add icing on the cake.

If Mr. Cookie Monster is truly committed to your relationship and to kicking this habit, with your help and God's guidance, over time it can be controlled...maybe not cured but controlled.

However, I do have to agree with Dorry reminding you that his actions in this regard to not justify or equate to what you did by having the A. Often, when the recovery rollercoaster is on a downhill swing for us, my FWW wants to equate my emotional detachment after her A and my betrayal by use of porn with her betrayal with another man. Kind of a tit for tat rationalization. This is dangerous and unhealthy for the marriage building process. His use of porn no more justifies your actions, than your action justify his use of porn. Two different issues with shared blame to go around for the environment that allowed it but still a personal choice that personal responsibility must be taken.

NT

NT - that was such a great post...

Dorry, I have been inspired by you and other so much that I can hardly take any credit for anything I say other than to say that those of you who have perservered are an example for all on this board.

NT

Believe it or not he is quite normal. MOST MEN MASTURBATE.
98% of men do and the other 2% lie about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />... Many other women on here who think that their man is not doing it have just not caught him in the act yet.

It is a proven fact again and again...

Most men ON THIS SITE do also and if they don't they probably struggle with trying not to do it or have struggled with it in the past.


So, please don't feel like this is your fault or that your man is some weirdo sexual animal. He just happens to have been caught. I have talked to quite a few men (Christians and otherwise) who have this very struggle.


It is NOT easily overcome and easy to change. He will most likely get smarter about gettting caught. He can do it in the shower, his car, at the computer, out in the woods, when you leave for 10 minutes to go to the store.. yada, yada, yada......

I don't know your answer in getting him to change WITH OR WITHOUT help. It has to come from him and it has to be a one day at a time one moment at a time commitment. It only takes a brief moment in time to fall down once again.

Hang in there.

most women masturbate too.
you are really missing the point.
good luck to you.

I didn't think this was about masterbation.

I thought this was about porn use....

SC,

I think it is the compulsion thing you need to talk to him about. You are NOT his mom, but you are his W and his partner. Like any addiction it takes often months of no contact before the compulsions die down, and like alcohol they never completely go away.

Men do like to see the female form. It is part of our chemistry and psychology, but that does not justify porn use to the detriment of the marriage. I think also you might find if you question him deeply, that he is depressed.

Most depressed people can and often do self-medicate with something. It can be porn because it is "not self-destructive" like drug or alcohol. But, the reality is as has been pointed out, that it is destructive to the sure and love ones. It is just hard to see it, especially if one is depressed.

So my recommendation is that he does consider counseling, that he have someone (perhaps you to be accountable to), and that he consider addressing IF he is depressed or anxious. Anxiety can also lead to self-medication and is NOT depression, although a few of the new drugs can address both anxiety and depression.

I think you will need more than one night of talking to your H to get this worked out. Finally, there is one last thing to consider. SEX for men is a sedative. The male body secretes a hormone to drop the heart rate after climax and that hormone is a sedative. If your H is up late after going to bed with you, it is clear he is NOT sleeping properly and perhaps subliminally he is using the porn to drive the need to get his "sedative fix."

Many things to consider. Talk to him. One thing is certain the man loves you or he would NOT be around. I just think he has a few issues that he is self-medicating with porn. It could be drugs or alcohol, but porn seemed safer and it does satisfy our male interests as well.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks gang,

Mr. Cookie and I talked last night.

Bottom line(s):
--He won't go to counseling because it's "too humiliating".
--He seems to think it's a matter of willpower, not of uncovering the underlying motivations/problems.
--He has agreed to "research" it on his own and share with me what he finds/discovers.
--He has agreed to install a key logger on the computer.

The conversation started out with me telling him that I understand he's embarrassed, and that he doesn't need to be, at least not around me. That we should try to put aside the stigma of porn use, because I really don't see it any differently than I see any of my destructive behaviors -- over spending, affair, etc.

He then proceeded to give me the speech I feared he would. Basically, that he's disgusted with himself... that he finally, truly understands how damaging this is... that his entire day was a living he11 which he never wants to repeat (thinking about all this while trying to get through the workday)... and that he now has the motivation to stop. Basically, the same exact thing he said two months ago.

My heart aches for him. It really does. I can see that he's in pain, and it's hard to see someone in such deep distress. I believe that he's speaking from the heart. But I also believe that he JUST DOESN'T GET IT!

I asked him why he did it, and his answer was: "Because it's pleasurable. Things had been better between us and I figured I could have both." When coaxed to dig a little deeper, his answer became: "I've been under a tremendous amount of pressure lately. The relapse coincided with finding out about your credit card debt." So I asked him how that explained Sunday night -- after a relatively relaxing weekend full of SF. No answer for that one.

That's okay. I don't expect him to have all the answers right now. But I did want some indication that he realizes he needs to *DIG FOR* AND *FIND* the answers in order to tackle this.

So... I asked him if he would get counseling. And he said he's not willing to do that because it's too humiliating for him, and he just can't handle that right now "with everything else that's going on."

He said he just wants another chance to prove that he can do this on his own. He asked me to forgive him, and trust him, and support him. I told him I would have to think about it and that I didn't know if I could be 100% on board unless he agreed to counseling.

He was stunned. He literally sat there with his mouth open, blinking his eyes in disbelief. Though he didn't use these words, his reaction was basically, "after all I've done for you?" He said he was trusting me and giving me a second chance with the credit cards. I told him that I'm not him, and don't necessarily react to things the same way he does. I pointed out that my credit card trouble doesn't date back more than 25 years, with at least 5 major confrontations about it between us.

He wanted to know how I got the number five. This is a man with a memory like an elephant. He can remember what each of us ordered at a restaurant we went to 10 years ago, and whether or not we liked it. But he didn't remember that we'd ever had serious issues with this before (???????). So I ran down the list. That just made him come full circle, and he repeated that "Now, he really gets it. This time will be different."

I asked him what he's going to do if he starts to get urges again. He said come talk to me. I asked him if he really thinks he can do that, and he said 'yes'. Okay, so what if he slips-up again? He says he'll tell me. I know he is being sincere -- at this moment. But in my heart of hearts, I just don't know. I asked him how he would feel about putting some sort of safeguard on the computer and he said he thought it would be a good idea.

I was also honest with him about the effect this is having on me. As we sat there talking, the part of me that's just a regular human being felt empathy for him -- as I would any other person who was so obviously suffering. But I could feel the "wife" part of me detatching. That darn 'wall' again. At least now I recognize that reaction. Just a couple of months ago, I didn't even know I had walls. But I still feel powerless to overcome it.

One other thing he mentioned is that he'd had quite a bit to drink on Sunday afternoon, and that he'd been thinking about the possible connection. But he didn't say what, if anything, he concluded or plans to do about it. I told him that I had noticed he was drinking a fair amount... and that he had planted himself in front of the TV to watch sports for much of the afternoon, ignoring the kids. (For those of you more familiar with my story, sound familiar?) He asked if I thought then that he might use porn later that night. And I said 'no', which is true, just that my "don't wanna slip back into the same old patterns" sensor had blinked. But I didn't want to nitpick at him. The man is entitled to relax now and then, afterall.

Thing is, it's not the relapse that bothers me. It's the refusal to do the pschological/emotional digging needed to tackle this. Knowing his family, it doesn't really surprise me. Their mantra could be "Don't question anything. Just go with the flow". he says things like, "It's fine to spread this chemical all over the lawn and then let the kids play on it. If it weren't safe, they couldn't sell it." I'm serious.

So where does that leave us? I think what I'm going to tell him is that I understand how hard this habit must be to break and that I expect him to be tempted again, and won't think any less of him if he tells me. But I will be very suspicious if he tries to act as though he never has another urge. Also... another relapse won't be a "deal breaker" for me -- IF he's honest with me about it. But if he lies again, I will ask him to leave. (I wanted to say, he'll have to get counseling. But that would be an ultimatum not a boundary (thanks BB and all who responded to that post!)).

Just one more thing. I've read the one caveat Dr. Harley gives about MB and alcohol addiction.... and how MB principles can actually make the problem worse, not better. And I think that applies to our situation, too. This is an addiction. If I had any doubts before, I don't anymore. And I need to start looking into ways to protect myself and my kids, and support him in a way that will be helpful IF he decides to REALLY deal with the addiction.

Maybe he CAN do it without formal counseling. Since he has indicated that he's willing to look into this on his own, I'm going to give him a list of books and websites that you all have recommended. It's not for me to decide how he goes about this. But it is for me to decide how much more I will tolerate. And I've made that decision.

I have not lost sight of the wrongs I have committed. And I will not stop working to understand myself and become a better person. But I will not do all that work to become healthy, only to stay in a relationship with someone who's not willing to do the same. Some of you may think that's wrong. But that's where I stand. That's my boundary.

--SC

Hello, Im sorry you are going through this. I just wanted to let you know that my H overcame his addiction and quit internet porn use cold turkey without any professional help. It has been 5 1/2 years and as far as I know there has been no relapses. I think one important part of his success was quitting masturbation. Now quitting masturabation was not a request of mine, that in itself does not bother me. Its the porn that offends me. So I had asked him why he doesn't masturbate anymore and he said that it was half the problem. He felt that the only way he could overcome the porn use was to overcome the impulse to masturbate and become the master of own domaine. I guess it worked.

From my own experience and from what I've learned porn addiction really is a way to escape. So it seems if these men could find an alternative escape and more appropriate ways of dealing with stress, they could replace the porn with those.

I still have trust issues and I still wonder if its really over for good. But he knows my boundary when it comes to secret porn use and knows I will uphold it. I commend you for setting your boundaries and upholding them.

So good luck, there is hope.

HI SC,


H said the same thing about 'group' so he agreed to do a 1:1 counseling with a male Dr., specializing in SA. He said it was the BEST thing he'd done, he felt SO MUCH better afterwards and had HOPE that he could deal with this. Best $150/hr we spent.


He's wrong and he knows it! If it were just willpower we would not be having this discussion in the first place. He's proven over and over that he cannot control it with willpower. Dr.Phil's weight loss books speak to willpower in great detail. It does not work, or everyone would be skinny! You have to set up a 'Supportive Environment' meaning removing all the junk food from the home and avoiding triggers to bad eating. You have to provide substitutions to the porn/eating... replace one bad habit with another Good habit. Willpower is never enough.


No, you have to do it. If he's the one with the password he can just turn it off when he likes. It's not a deterrent if he has the password.


He's starting to get it.


One of the first things my H's IC said in a session with me is "IT'S VERY HARD TO GIVE UP SOMETHING PLEASURABLE" That's why willpower does not work.


He's already admitted to doing it when he really didn’t want to. It's a compulsion at this point. That hasn’t sunk in with him, yet.


Get him to agree to go if he cannot deal with this himself. He'll mess up, then he'll agree to go.


I’d be straight forward: why is this time any different? You’ve promised over and over, nothing has worked. WHY am I supposed to believe you now. He should be able to answer you.


Fine, let him be stunned.


Need to be more specific, here. He’ll tell you within 6 hours, for example. SHMI’s H didn’t ‘tell her’ because he knew she’d get the cable bill with the porn so he figured it was the same. One month afterwards and being busted by a cable bill does not count. He’ll come talk to you (when? immediately? w/I one hr?). And just talking to you isn’t enough, he needs a hobby, something else to do in the middle of the night when he gets the urge.


But the walls aren’t all bad. He’s not giving you much reason to trust or respect him, feeling withdrawn is a perfectly natural reaction that is telling YOU something It’s telling you that your marriage is in serious trouble. You are hearing this message and it bothers you. That’s good


Again, especially since he’s fighting the counseling, please go buy the SA books and ask him to read them. They will do you good, too, I promise. They speak to the co-dependence and the W’s need to ‘fix’ and ‘be his supply’… and all sorts of issues you’ve probably not considered yet.

Last night was a start. YOU do the key logger, both of you read the books. He may not need counseling, my H only went a few times, but they had a tremendous affect on him. (We mainly used the SA books and then MC). Hang in there, it’s a tough road. Please take care - Dru

Dru,
Thanks for taking the time to check back and comment on my conversation wtih Mr. Cookie. We talked again last night and I'm pretty discouraged.

He said he did a little reading on the internet the previous night (not sure which sites). I suppose that's a good sign, but ya' know what he zeroed in on? Two "articles" if you will. One -- the debate over whether habitual porn use is a true addiction. Two -- Using Zen techniques to overcome the urge when it hits (variation on willpower, IMO). With regard to the addiction debate, he said, "They had examples of guys who've used porn heavily for many, many years and still lead perfectly normal, productive lives." Also something about it being different than a chemical addiction.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So you see, he still doesn't get it.



Yeah, well, he won't even go back to our MC WHO ALREADY KNOWS ABOUT HIS PORN PROBLEM. We were in MC for about two months. Male counselor. We both like him. We got to a point where Mr. Cookie thought he had everything all figured out and the MC couldn't tell him anything more... so I have continued IC with the same guy.



I agree that he's wrong. But I really DON'T think he knows it. However, I may have made a tiny bit of headway on this issue last night.. reminding him that the last three times we've confronted his porn use, he believed -- in the moment -- that he had hit rock bottom and never, ever wanted to go through all this again. And each and every time, willpower failed him, and failed him rather quickly --BECAUSE HE NEVER ADDRESSED THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

Okay -- I will install the keylogger. Guess I should probably start checking the cable bill too, huh?


Yup.



Yup.





Agreed. In fact, the reason I specifically asked for your input is that I read the stuff you posted on EN's about a woman trying to 'be her husband's supply', and it dawned on me that I might have been doing that on some level without even knowing it. And that I really need to educate myself.

Thanks again, Dru. I must tell you that I admire your spunk. I read what you wrote awhile back about getting frustrated with people who create big messes and wallow in them... something like... "I just want to tell them to sit down and shut up, and let me fix this." It made me laugh. I thought, "If I ever win the lottery, I'm going to recruit that woman to be my 'life manager'". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Smartcookie,
check out recoverynation.com-online lesson plans for both the SA and his partner-pretty good stuff, if he wants to work on it he will have no excuses. Its free, and he can hide his real identity.

I'm sorry that your VDay was spent discussing an old, sore subject. We spent ours not discussing much at all. I kind of avoided him, he acts as if nothing is wrong and I couldn't handle that.

(((((((SC))))))))

He's grasping for straws with the 'no harm' article. Nix those arguments in the bud, immediately. The issue isnt that some men may live normal lives immerserd in porn, the issues is SmartCookie is disgusted with it, and Mr. SmartCookie said he could stop because he doesnt want to hurt SmartCookie any longer. You're not debating the validity of porn, your debating whether the conditions in you marriage are acceptable for your continued participation.

And since he SAID he could stop with no problem, none of his articles supporting porn are relevent. Articles condoning porn use have no connection with your marriage. Ask him to stick with the articles on stopping the porn, since that is the matter at hand... Ask him why he'd look for supporting literature when the issue of him stopping had already been agreed upon. Ask him if he's saying that now he WONT stop. You want him firm in his position.


Well, you cant force him, but I'd make that conditional, too. Agree to him not going AS LONG AS ____________ and you come up with a few important things to you. Be sure to stress that since the marriage has already experienced so much troulble that you worry that if things get worse it could deteriorate very quickly w/o MC. That your just worried for the marriage, etc.

For anything he does not want to agree to, make a deal about what conditions upon which he'll agree to change his mind. This keeps the door open for you. 'I wont go to MC'. 'Will you go if you dont stop this on your own?' 'ok'...



You know, it's not either. IC said we could guess for years at theories as to why this particular bad habit stuck with H as opposed to anything else. It's extremely pleasurable and easy to access - you really dont need to super-shrink to get that. It's more a matter of behaviorial modification and stress management. Why's not the issue... the issue is making a plan and a commitment to change a lifestyle habit.



Forget the root... alot of alcoholics know why they drink. Knowing isnt half the battle, here.


I hated doing this but it does provide peace of mind for awhile. It's also a sure way to break up his normal routine... he'll have to work harder to get it if he wants it, which hopefully will make him realize how much time and efforts he's putting into this. Either he wont miss it or he will, both are good. The more he misses he, the more he'll start thinking about it as a problem.


The books were really helpful. Like a crash course in SA... the knowledge is powerful. One questionaire finally got through to my H. One of those checklist on 'do you really have a problem' - he said he answered many more than the expected.

And forget the word 'addiction' for awhile. It freaks them out... now it's a 'problem in our marriage'... My H will now swear up an down that there was no other way to describe it other than an addiction... (even your H admitted to doing it when he really didnt want to). But early on, the word addiction just made him dig in his heals. I didnt care what you called it, I just knew it was effed-up and unacceptable.


You make me blush <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Good luck on the lotto <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - Dru

SA -- Thanks for the info on the web site. I'll check it out.

NTT -- I know what you mean. Mr. Cookie has been all cheerful the last couple of days. Not that I want to see him in pain and struggling all the time. Not at all. But I just get the impression he wants to sweep the tough stuff under the rug.

Another helpful post Dru....

On some level, he may be using that "porn isn't a REAL addiction" article to justify continued use. But I think the main point he's trying to make right now is that, if it's not an addiction, he doesn't need counseling. Whatever. You're right. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics. "Addiction"... "Habit"... "Problem"... doesn't matter, as long as we're dealing with it.


We have an agreement now that the next slip-up means counseling. That's the exact same agreement we had last time. I'm letting him off the hook now, but I won't next time.



Well, I don't know. Hmmmm. While it's true that I have a habit of over-analyzing things, I think Mr. Cookie has a habit of trying to gloss over things. Even my affair. Would it change your opinion at all to know that he also drinks every day and gambles?

The drinking varies in amount. Anywhere from 2-4 beers/glasses of wine a night during the week to 3-7 on the weekends. That's a rough estimate. I really don't count. But it's rare for him to go a day without some. Awhile back, he decided he wasn't going to drink during the week anymore. That didn't last long. Before you knew it, the Fri-Sun definition of 'weekend' started including Thurs. Then it was just one glass of wine with dinner Mon-Wed... and eventually he was right back where he started.

The gambling is also one of those things that seems to fluxuate up and down. It has never caused any financial problems. Not even close as far as I can tell. It's mostly very small bets on horse racing and sports on the internet. His parents used to take him to the track when he was a kid, so this goes way back. In and of itself, I REALLY don't think it's a big deal at all. But viewed in context with everything else.... ???

It all suggests to me that one way or another, he'll find a way to escape/numb himself rather than deal, feel, or be emotionally intimate with me.

And just to add more stew to the pot -- I'm an addict to. My addiction is a little harder to define. And one could also argue that it's "not a 'real' addiction". It's an addiction to.... adrenaline? activites that are forbidden or have an element of danger? I'm still not 100% clear, but that's the jist of it. And the most common way for me to get my fix thus far in my life is through flirting, lust, male attention... all leading up to the ultimate rush... my affair. That's what I'm working on in couseling right now -- finding healthier outlets for my need for excitement.

Which leads me to...


To be honest, I'm feeling pretty apathetic about the marriage right now. It could be just a temporary 'cooling off' period after this latest setback. I don't know.

Today, my counselor told me that the survival rate for marriages in which both spouses have an addiction is only one in four. Not very encouraging news.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Hey SC,

Hang in there. All is not lost. It is just the ebb and flow. Both of you are finding out about things that you need to know and ultimately need to know how to take care of each other.

Still praying for you both.

I'm no expert on recovery (we're 3-1/2 months past D-Day - and that was only a partial admission at that - and maybe finally on the verge of NC), but from everything I've read here and elsewhere the first 6 months to 1 year of recovery are very bumpy.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have periods of apathy or dealing with negative emotions. I think it's more important what you do with - do you acknowledge them and work through them, or get stuck in them? Yes, it can be hard to work through them, but I think the end result is worth the effort.

I don't know whether Mr. Cookie can kick his porn habit or not without help. It certainly sounds like he is having problems, and maybe using porn and other things to escape some of the current situation. I think your boundary is a good one, especially if it has consequences.

You said something earlier about asking him to leave if he doesn't seek help if he can't kick it. Be prepared to back that up if you need to. It may be the only thing that finally sinks in. For me, when we started MC after MP told me of the affair, the effect my voyeurism had on her quickly came out (like the first session). Within a week I realized what that did to her, and the consequent effect it had on her feelings for me and her self, and I was devestated. That was impetus enough for me to drop the fascination. Am I cured? I'd like to think so. Do I trust myself to not fall back into it? Not at all. But I do have motivation not to.

Hang in there SC. I think most people on these forums will agree that problems in marriages have usually been around for a long time, and they are not easily fixed, especially when the marriage is poised to either recover, or not. Focus on what you can do, and do it. Remember, you and Mr. Cookie have gone through a lot, and have been doing a wonderful job. Keep chipping away.


Look at it as a challenge. You and Mr. Cookie can show the world how good and committed you are by beating the odds and proving the skeptics wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the pep-talk Bird.

Unfortuanately, I'm not dealing with this very well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think part of the problem is that we had an especially busy week last week, so after discovering his slip-up on Sunday night, we didn't have much time alone together for several days.

By the time the weekend rolled around, I was feeling like we were back at square one. After spending the last several weeks warming up to him, I felt cold an empty again.

We had our ususal Friday night dinner together after putting the kids to bed, but it was more akward than it has been in the last few weeks. When we went to bed, he initiated SF. I complied, but it was awful for me, and I cried afterward. And then he felt terrible. I didn't sleep very well and he probably didn't either.

On Saturday, we were cooped up in the house with the kids most of the day. We were both a little moody... kids had cabin fever... etc. I was also very tired and by late evening, I was frazzled. I went upstairs to lie down for a bit and collect myself, and ended up falling asleep. So, we didn't get any alone time on Saturday night either.

I know all is not lost WOL, and that setbacks are to be expected. But it sure does "stink" doesn't it? I feel like I did all that work and followed the program to the best of my ability -- even though I didn't want to -- and now I have no motivation to start all over again. Very discouraging.I don't WANT to feel this way. It was a lot more fun to enjoy being around my H again. I also know I probably sound like a brat (especially to all you BS's who've been fighting the fog for weeks and months). But I'm being honest.

On the positive side, I noticed he's been checking out more web sites on the topic of porn addiction... and even copied one of the articles supporting the idea that it IS an addiction to his new file. I suppose that's progress.

--SC

SC,

You said
Actually, I think you do want to feel this way. You can hide behind what your H did and not face things. Sounds harsh doesn't it? But, let me ask you when you withdrew from him this week, you did not mind at all did you? SC, if your H was just a friend and he messed up something, would you forgive him? If he was remorseful would you forgive him? If he was on a diet would you encourage him?

If you did enjoy being around your H again, and it was fun, why are you not having fun now? These are YOUR choices not his. You control this not him.

Your H is struggling with an addiction and he will fall off from time to time. But, if he is making progress and he is being encouraged and YES watched, he can make this. You want to know how I know this? He loved you enough to fight for this marriage when you had hurt him in the worst way, and told him you had NEVER loved him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The good news for you is that you have never had someone you loved tell you that or do that. The bad news is you are not realizing what it took to do what he has done.

If you did or do finally realize this, I think you would KNOW that this man has it in him to break this addiction especially with your help and encouragement. He is apparently looking at sites for help even now, and yet all week and this weekend what encouragement did he get from you? Not much from the sound of it.

You have some decisions to make and one of them is: are you his W and friend or not? If you are you have work to do and you will quit finding excuses to not do the work. If you are not, then the man is on his own completely and totally...how sad.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Interesting perspective JL,


Yeah, this is a blast. A real barrel of laughs. I'm enjoying it a lot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


Yes. But by the fifth time around, I'd be looking for a little more effort than "I'm sorry... again." While I was shutting down all week, that's all I had to go on. That -- and an article he found on the internet arguing that there's no such thing as a porn addiction. The additional effort/research didn't happen until this morning. I'm not a robot, JL. Can't just turn the emotions on and off again. "Oh look, he did a little more reading. Guess I can open myself back up again. All better." Doesn't work that way.


Because I'm scared!!!!! (Dang it! I'm so sick of crying over this crap and here I go again!)


I wonder... if he were here asking for advice about my addiction (OM) would you give him the same advice?



How do you know?


Well, then that's my fault for leaving out parts of the story in which I have tried to encourage him -- no yelling, no demands, no tears, no judgements, no shame. Statements like: "We WILL get through this." "We'll work this out, together." "You don't need to be embarrassed about this around me... I don't see it as shameful or dirty or different from any other addiction." Hugs. Finally gave him the valentines gift I just didn't have the... whatever... will, I guess, to give him on the actual day.


I don't think I'm making excuses. I'm still here, still doing the work, but it's overwhelming.

--SC

SC,

I think it is overwhelming because you feel you are in this alone. Have you asked him for help? Have you talked to him about how you need some good times with him, and his support?

I'm not indicting you, SC. You really don't understand how proud I am of you and all you have done. You truely don't understand how much of an impact you have made here and with me. And I guess that is the problem isn't it? You don't realize the impact you have, do, and can have on your H.

You may not realize this but rebuilding a marriage does not require that you change who you are because clearly your H thinks you are very good. He could have voted with his feet, and he did not. All rebuilding a marriage requires is changing perspective, you are very likely making an impact.

Oh, and by the way, if your H tries to feed you that nonsense that porn is not an addiction, then ask him why he cannot give it up. Why it is so challenging for him? Human's can become addicted to pretty much anything. Heck, some of those poor fools out there become addicted to running. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Can you imagine that? Addicted to endorphins, who would have thought? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, a running addiction and ruin a marriage as well, even if it is done under the guise of good health.

SC, have faith in yourself, we know you are strong and we ALL know you are a very good person. We are working on the focus and the perspective, hence my comments to you earlier.

You can do this, and I think he can beat this, but he does have to admit it is a problem. Further, he needs to understand why it is a problem to you. Think about this last statement and come back and try out on us various ways of expressing it to him. You know us guys, we are sometimes pretty thick and defensive. You need to paint a clear picture and then slip in under his defenses.

You asked
If I understand your question correctly, the answer is yes. Here it is referred to as the roller coaster, but yes WS do relapse and the BS is encouraged to "hang in there" and keep plan A'ing or B'ing. And yes to do now LB's even if acts of physical violence are dancing in their heads at the moment.

SD, you also said What are you scared of SC? You need to address that and we can help you there.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Just wanted you to know that I've read (and re-read several times) what you wrote in those last two posts. I don't even know what to say anymore. But you made some good points, and now that I'm past the initial defensiveness (so often my first reaction) I'm giving it all some deeper thought. Thanks.
--SC

SC, did you see this ?? <<<+++++ CLICK THERE

{{SC}} i know this is very hard stuff!! but it really can work. love ya

SC,

Please understand one thing, I have no intention of hurting you, and if something I have has hurt you, you need to let me know. I may or may not withdraw it, but I sure will apologize and try to better explain myself.

SC, you are doing better than you realize, have faith in yourself and your H. I think you will be rewarded far more than you can imagine right now.

FL??? you rascal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You are still hanging around. Good for you, keep your own counsel for awhile, but do drop in and say Hi! every now and then. You will be missed you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

JL, i have no idea what you are talking about, i am not still here!!! i'm a figment of your imagination, that's all.

SC, come to think of it, for all the times i have said such nice things about JL, there have been these times that he .... not sure how exactly to word it....

but i remember this one time... something about how my story was the worst example of ?? something, i forget the exact details now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> remember JL??

Nope I don't recall. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is cool channeling with the ghost of FL. Never thought I would have that experience. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good night Ghost.

JL

"I was walking with a ghost
And I said please, please don't insist..."
(White Stripes, Dec. 2005)

You guys know it? Probably not, huh? You really need to expand your repertoire of contemporary music. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

sorry don't know it. but then again, lately my music has either been 100% christian music or the music from Seussical The Musical, oh yeah and a bit of Wicked thrown in there too.

I know this, JL. But thank you for saying it anyway. Bottom line is, the truth hurts sometimes. Especially this....


This ruffled my feathers, not because I was being falsely accused, but because it's true. In many ways, it is more comfortable for me to withdraw. It feels "safer". And right or wrong, it's what I need to do right now to protect myself. I'm not saying I will stay in this place. But I'm not going to push myself to open up as far and as fast as I did before. It basically backfired. And I think it made this setback worse than it otherwise would have been.

This comment did bug me...



The first part of it is fine, and something I probably needed to hear. But that last sentence is manipulative. A blatant attempt to send me on a guilt trip, IMO. Sorry, but I'm not getting on that bus. He is NOT alone. He has his parents, six brothers and sisters, and friends. And if I died tomorrow, he would find support elsewhere (or not, his choice) and his life would go on. I can offer him support, but I am not responsible for pulling him out of this mess. I've got just about all I can handle cleaning up my own mess right now.


Well... the good times are coming. We have some fun plans this weekend. But as for any productive discussions about the problem at hand, I don't think they're going to happen.
I have already explained very clearly how it affects me. He says he understands, and I believe he does. So there's no point in beating that dead horse. And as for his efforts to kick the habit, he says he doesn't want to talk about it with me, just wants to handle it on his own. He's humiliated -- was physically cringing during our very brief talk last night.

A bit of a catch-22 isn't it? Talking about it makes him throw up his defenses because it's too uncomfortable for him. But not knowing what kind of progress, if any, he's making in understanding and dealing with it prompts me to keep my defenses up.

--SC

(Ghost, thanks for making sure I saw that. I'm thinking about the email thing.)

no comment about my music??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC, you can choose to "protect" yourself and sit behind the safety of whatever wall you want.

more familiar, i get.

but is it more peaceful?

does it leave you feeling good about yourself?

this question of JL's is a good one: "are you his W and friend or not?"

it does take time. just keep mulling it all over.

I am really glad to hear about your upcoming weekend plans!!

Seussical The Musical??
Wicked??
Christian. Hmmmm. Christian Rock?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I don't care for country music. Not to denegrate anyone who does. Oh, and for those of you who do: to denegrate means to put down."
Bob Newhart <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SC - if you're looking for Christian Rock, I'd recommend Air1. They stream on their website (http://www.air1.com/), and have a good selection of contemporary Christian Rock that is (to me) more rock than soft elevator music. They're the sister station of KLOVE, which tends to play more of what I term "elevator music".


Apologies for the thread-jack, since this has pretty much nothing to do with the topic at hand.

klove is the station i listen to, it has stations in many cities and you can listen to them via internet too. i guess some of it could be considered christian rock... who knows, what's in a name.

Wicked is an AWESOME Broadway Musical. please tell me you have heard of that??? about the witches from the wizzard of oz?? how they were friends prior to dorthy's arrival... the whole... how did the wicked witch of the west become wicked and stuff?? am i speaking english.

ok, now Seussical , i could see you not knowing that one!!! lol. it was the play our community theatre put on as the christmas production this year. but it looks like it was on broadway at some point, i just read "But the show has its fans--Rosie O'Donnell, for one, likes it so much that she jumped in to play the Cat in the Hat for a month while Roger Bart was on vacation." soundtrack came out in 2001, so i think it is gone now.

anyway.... i have now fullfilled my URLing for the month!!

hi bird!! i'll have to check out air1, although i have not had a problem with the "elevator" music on klove!!

Oh my! Okay. It's now very clear that my musical taste is far afield of most everyone here. I should have known. The only other time I posted some lyrics, it was from the Goo Goo Dolls. No response. Somebody please tell me you have at least heard of these guys?.....

Goo Goo Dolls
"Better Days"
(Jan. 2006)

And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this good and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And designer love and tempty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days

So take these words
And sing out loud
Cuz everyone is forgiven now
Cuz tonight's the night the world begins again

And it's someplace simple where we could live
And something only you can give
And that's faith and trust and peace while we're alive
And the one poor child that saved this world
And there's 10 million more who probably could
If we all just stopped and said a prayer for them

So take these words
And sing out loud
Cuz everyone is forgiven now
Cuz tonight's the night the world begins again

I wish everyone was loved tonight
And somehow we could stop this fight
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days

So take these words
And sing out loud
Cuz everyone is forgiven now
Cuz tonight's the night the world begins again
Cuz tonight's the night the world begins again...

oh, of course i have heard of Goo Goo Dolls!!!

and my current musical taste is a FAR CRY from what it was 2 years ago.

prior to that i have been to many concerts for Bruce Springstein, Dave Matthews Band, a more local favorite is BoDeans to name a few. I've seen Alanis Morrestte, Indio Girls, what other names do you want me to drop....

OMG, OMG.... I LOVE the BoDeans!!! I've seen them live 3 or 4 times. But don't assume they only have fans close to home! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay, whew! Thanks FL, Now I don't feel like such an outcast anymore (at least in terms of music, lol)

I've been going to BoDeans concerts since about 1985.

the first song my kids sang is the "No No No" song!!!!

how far away do BoDean's fans exist??

i'm going to remove the references to the location as soon as you read this....

so get your butt in here and read it!!!

Far, far away....

I gotta get off the computer.
Have a good night.

--SC

bummer.

you have a good night too.

Musical tastes? For me that varies, though I tend to avoid country when I can <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Currently at work I'm listening to Steve Taylor (Christian, 80's/early 90's, new wave/punk), and in the car it's been Petra the last couple of days (Judas Kiss is a particular favorite of mine right now).

Don't listen to much secular stuff anymore. Not even sure who's popular. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC,

You said
SC, I don't do guilt trips nor do I buy tickets for anyone else to go on them either. Trust me, on this if nothing else, whatever I post to you it is NOT to insight guilt ( a paralyzing emotion). I just don't think that way.

I also found the rest of that quote bother some, because you are missing something very important if he could do as you say:

he would never have fought for this marriage. You have no clue how important you are to this man, but I think you don't realize that while his life may go on, NONE of the people mention mean to him what YOU do. You have enormous power in this marriage SC. That is why I made the comment I did. I am NOT interested in your guilt or guilty feelings. I am interested in how you see things and the things you don't seem to see. Hence my comment.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Since I last posted, things have gone from bad to worse.

The porn issue is still a mess. We've had a couple of talks about it, and some of it has been good. But if you think WS's babble, you otta hear a man trying to kick a porn habit. I've heard everything from "Sometimes I was using MORE THAN ONCE a night... but I'm not really an addict." to "Maybe I started watching again to get some new ideas about how to please you."

On the other hand, my empathy for him is growing. All that stuff about kicking him out if there's one more slip-up -- I never told him that, and I don't intend to. He IS trying -- in his own way. And I know this is very hard for him. And that he's struggling and suffering. He was also hurt and angry about the way I withdrew from him after finding him using again. And while I don't want to hurt him any more than I already have, I won't apologize for protecting myself.

Meantime, I broke NC. I went out with a girlfriend on Friday night and we went to a club where the OM's band was playing. I didn't talk to him. Just watched him play. But I know it was wrong to go there. And my H was crushed. Odd thing is though, it's not sending me spiraling back into the fog and withdrawl. Just the opposite. It's actually helping me to finally detatch from OM.

When I first came here, I thought my H and I were two relatively normal, average people who had grown apart and gone astray. I really hoped the MB program could help us. I did not know about my husband's porn addiction. And I grossly underestimated the impact of my childhood sexual abuse on the way I view myself and the way I interact with the rest of the world.

I now believe our individual problems run too deep for a little behavior modification/change in perspective to fix. I believe we are both emotionally wounded.. from way back... and that two sick people cannot create a healthy marriage. I'm not ready to give up on the marriage yet -- not by a long shot. And neither is my husband. I hope the things we have learned here will help us hang onto our marriage long enough to get through our personal recoveries. Then maybe we can take an honest look at whether we have a relationship worth saving. But I don't believe we can truely see our marraige for what it is... much less heal it.... until we get OURSELVES into a reasonably healthy state. And who knows how long that will take. Or whether it will even happen. I seem to have the will for personal recovery, but I'm not sure I have the strength. I'm pretty sure my husband would have the strength needed, but he doesn't seem to have the will right now.

So I'm off to seek counsel elswhere for awhile -- to concentrate for the time being on the only thing I have any real control over anyway -- myself. My personal recovery. I also need to focus more fully on my children, who haven't had enough of my time and attention over the last few months.

Thank you all for all you have done for me and my H. I may very well be back someday. But for now, I need a break.

Sincerely,
--SC

(WOL, if you're reading, I haven't forgotten about that book. I'll get the title from my IC tomorrow and jump on your thread one more time with the info.)

Hi SC,

I've been thinking of you and wondering how your weekend went. seems to me there was some fun planned for you both...


i'm not going to flat out disagree with you here, but i do think you should consider this... exactly who ISN"T somewhat sick.

i know, i know, the degree of "sickness" or baggage varies.

i certainly will not argue with you about focusing on personal recovery. that is absolutely the best thing for you to do. between you and me, this place has helped me probably a lot more than it has helped my marriage. although helping me has helped my marriage too.

i'll keep an eye out for you still and i'll certainly keep you and your entire family in my prayers. God bless!!