Here is the scenario. My husband is:

- a caring and involved father to our 2 children, 9 and 4.
-A good provider. He makes good money and contributes to the needs of the house and family
- Doesn’t drink alcohol, smoke, do drugs, or gamble
- Isn’t physically abusive
- Doesn't stay out extremely late or "hang out with the boys" frequently.


However he has a problem:

- He has been involved in at least 7 "inappropriate" relationships during the 12 years of marriage.
- I define inappropriate as doing or saying anything with someone of the opposite sex that you wouldn't do or say if your spouse were there.
- Some are women that he meets through work (he's in sales), he builds friendships and talks to them on his cell phone frequently. These "friends" never call our house and he never talks to me about them, until of course I find out about them.
- He has picked up women in clubs and contacts them afterwards. There is one that I know of that he kissed the night he met her. He said that was the extent of the "relationship".
- He has had 1 specific "other" woman in his life on and off for 8 years of our marriage. She started as a friend it progressed into a physical relationship which included oral sex and he has admitted to intercourse with her at least once
- He recently had oral sex with a co-worker at a team meeting in October

Given that we have been through various incidents over the years and I have repeatedly asked him to stop, I went to a divorce lawyer this time.
- Has apologized profusely and said that he doesn't want a divorce and wants to work it out
- He says he realized that he has made bad choices and he doesn't want to keep lying to me and negatively affecting his family
- He is in therapy and has gone to 4 or 5 sessions because he realizes that something is wrong and wants to save the marriage
- He has done therapy before when he got busted but has never followed through as much as this time
- His therapist and I believe that there are some childhood issues that effect his need for attention. Which is not an excuse just an explanation
- Claims that his behavior is a combination of a lack of happiness/satisfaction in the marraige and the fact that he is normal and most men have these inappropriate relationships (cheat) in some way at some time in a marriage
- Has expressed anger towards me for snooping and busting him

1) So is it worth attempting to rebuild and recover with a person like this.

2)Can a repeat offender be "reformed" and is it worth giving him yet ANOTHER chance???

Sounds like he is a sex addict. If he is, it really has little to do with sex, but more with his childhood.

HOWEVER, he is taking the chance of exposing you to STD's. Unless he gets help, things won't get better.

Yes, anyone can change......However, you should re-read what you yourself posted and put it on an imaginary scale. Which way does the scale tip?

"Another chance"...??? He's had at least 7 affairs and probably countless more.

I'd honestly have to ask you what you think giving him another chance will accomplish here? What makes you think that giving him another chance will make things different this time?

These are things you should be asking yourself. Anyone of us can tell you that your Husband will repent and that giving him another chance is the right thing to do for you and your children...is that what you are looking for?

If your daughter were writing this post and asked the same questions, what would you advise?

Would you tell her to give him another chance?

Lem

OMG i am living in your nightmare as well. basically the same scenerio been together for 15 years total, he too has had multiple inappropriate friendships which progressed into other stuff and he has a OC with one of his OW's. i too want to know if a repeat offender can be changed. oh yea, we have had exposure to an STD but for some reason (grace of god) i have not gotten it.

i am glad to hear that yours is actually seeking help, mine continues to not want to be "controlled" -- held accountable to anything so i think i am ready to move on. i do think there is someone out there that would value me for who i am and treat me like i deserve to be treated.

i always say to myself -- today will be a better day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anewmojo:

OK, so tell me when you say "today will be a better day" what are you hoping for by saying "better day"?.

Your living a nightmare no doubt, but this is a nightmare that you can wake up from and terminate any time you want.

There are no impossibles in life, you always have a choice.

Lem

It CAN happen with the proper motivation; we are friends with a couple that went thru similar sitches and came out the other side with God's help and SA. It is a long and arduous path, and not everyone makes it by a long shot. But there is hope.

Hey, at least you know what to expect with him so you can't complain when he just does what you expect! This sounds like a way of life with him and if he can have several women, and get away with it, who can blame him?

Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

It doesn't say so in my signature (run out of room!) but my H had PA during our engagement, ONS after our wedding, EA with co-worker 4 yrs into our M, other ONS during drinking/alcoholism bouts, all before the grand EA/PA of 2004.

It IS possible to recover, but you are right - probably major childhood issues (sexual abuse is a common root) and he would need the proper motivation to change. Is he a reflective type of man who TRIES to work on himself (hard!) or does he "go with the flow"?

iluvmy2, Yes, anyone can change IF they want to. It sounds like he is trying to work on it right now. I would set a very strong boundry of continuing IC as manditory because he will NOT change unless he digs into himself. if he all of a sudden wants to quit IC, then i think you have a very big problem on your hands.

aneqmojo, as you can guess, my answer to you is... you have a very serious problem on your hands. you cannot force him to face his addiction, you can only choose if you are willing to live with it or not.

i am a person that had multiple affairs, i have changed, it is possible. it was not easy.

FinallyLearning-T2M,

I'm curious & maybe it would be helpful to know what happened that made you change?

you are absolutally right... i have had more deal breakers than i can count, i guess i was hoping that god could change him into doing the right thing but my faith in that is wavering because even when he was in church he was doing the same nonsense. i have cut off communication with him, my dd's have a bb game tonight so i sent an email "the girls have a bb game @ 7." nothing else. just tired of the nonsense... need to file and be done with this...

someone said that they can change if they really want to... what does that really look like? if this is an addiction do i keep dealing with the "relapses" or draw a line in the sand and if he crosses it erase the board? i have a problem with his inapproprate female friendships and him talking to other women PERIOD... and he doesn't seem to want to make that change, refuses to give me access to his cell phone account (because i am controling him) and thinks it's ok to talk to his OW without me involved in the conversation... as a matter of fact he had OW/OC at his apartment last weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Obtain a copy of the book OUT OF THE SHADOWS by Patrick Carnes and let your husband read it and see if he can identify with what the book describes. The book is about sexual addiction and it goes into detail about the symptoms and what causes a person to become a sexual addict.

If your husband has childhood issues those issues could be the cause of his addiction. Usually the roots of sexual addiction go back to childhood.

And to your question of "can a repeat offender be reformed?" Only if the offender themselves makes the change. But it takes a lot of work. It took me a year of weekly individual counseling, plus group counseling, along with weekly accountability groups and a psychiatrist to make my changes. It's not an easy task, but it's possible. The offender just has to want it bad enough.

I have made changes that I had thought would never have been possible to do. So it can be done.

i luv my 2:

As others have stated,
Of course anyone "can" change (meaning has the Ability too do so).

However,
your question should be WILL your H change??

As NO ONE has the complete answer,
best you can do is ask the Odds.

Unfortunately,
as of Right Now .......they don't look good.

Cause,
for your H to Really Change "he" has to want to.
That's the Only way to get lifelong lasting change.
[And even then it can be a real challenge].

So,
At this moment in time Why would your H choose to change his behavior??

I've read of NO reason for him to do so. (Sadly, your Pain doesn't seem to be effecting him in the way you'd wish ....long term).

Most people ONLY change a pleasurable behavior, habit or pattern ONCE it becomes more Painful (to them personally) then it is enjoyable.

So,
what Real Consequences has your H had to endure as a result of his actions?

Seems that "whatever" they've been .....he's OK to live and deal with them.

Bottom line is that if he doesn't "get it" for himself .........no amount of spying, bitching or even crying will make a difference to him.
He may stop Short Term to placate you ........but as you've seen This "is" his lifestyle and he will go back.

Then in that case its all a matter of what you can live, deal and put up with.

As too whether its "worth it" or not .........sadly, only YOU can answer that.
We are NOT as invested as you, so our perspective will most likely be a lot more cut and dry.
However, you can't Fully take out the shared history, emotions, kids, finances, ect.
Yes, Logic has its place as well in the equation ......but its up to YOU to place a value on each factor and then Come up with a determination for yourself.

Is my initial reaction to tell you to cut your losses? Actually Yes.

But then again,
my stance (until coming here) has always been if someone even cheats once, get rid of them and move on.
However, I'm STILL with my Wife ......so Just like myself and others ......you have to weigh the pro's and con's for yourself, and make the Best Decision for your situation.

Unfortunately, there are NO Guarantees either Way!

All good advice.. I think that everyone will agree that with any addiction, there are serious problems from childhood. Whether it's drug, alcohol, sex, lying, overspending, food, on and on, it's all an addiction and people with abusive childhoods try to numb the pain with their drug of choice. This has to be dealt with in order to have ANY strong, healthy relationships as adults. I believe that this is outside the realm of MB's per sey but if you care about this person enough, if you have the emotional reserves necessary and IF they want to change enough, your support would mean the world to them, as they go through this incredibly painful process. I know because I've been through this. I have addictive tendancies towards alcohol, sex, and lying, along with strong suicidal tendancies. It's taken many years of therapy, AD's, and the neverending support of a very dear friend, to finally make some progress. This friend is now my husband. Yes, we're probably co-dependant (working on that now) and yes it was an EA on our parts, all those years of our first marriages. But in our case, we were there for each other while growing up and were witnesses to each of our various abusive family environments. Now it's his turn to work on his addictions, which are very similiar to mine. His childhood abuses were also very similiar to mine, ie.. sexual, physical, emotional, verbal, well, pretty much every way. Anyways, it's not easy working on yourself, and it's not easy being married to someone working on their issues, but in my case, there is no one else in my life who could or even would have been there for me, and I feel like how can I turn my back on him now that he's going through this ******? But that's just me, and I am seeing real progress and true motivation on his part. So maybe just something to think about.

In all honesty, I should add that I also had 2 PA during my first marriage besides the EA I just described. Just wanted to be upfront..

wow, it would take more time and energy than i have to be able to answer that question throughly. i guess the best i can say is that i hit rock bottom. and i wanted help. i remember the specific day, the true start of me really wanting help. to try to tell you all the reasons as to why that day finally happened, i just don't think it is possible. my H's love certainly played a large role in it though. but i do remember how God touched me on that day.

i'm sorry i cannot answer your question better than that.

There have been no STD's and no other children. As you will see in my original post he is going to IC and has been to at least 6 sessions.

iluvmy2,

i fear responses on this thread are possibly being mixed between you and anewmojo. your stories are similiar in nature but are quite different in how your S is currently acting.

so how are you? do you feel up to trying to support him thru this?

and since you are here... are there things YOU can learn about being in a relationship from this website? see any areas of improvement for yourself?

also... all of this must be taking a toll on you. this site can also help support you as you try to personally recover.

iluvmy2 my wife would have described me much the same way as you did your husband. To her I was perfect, except when she found out about my affairs. She still says, I'm perfect, but she now throws in "expect for the one imperfect part and it's a big imperfect part".

If your husband wants to change, change will come about.

Near the Sheep Gate in Jerusalem there was a pool, in Hebrew called Bethesda, with five alcoves. Hundreds of sick people--blind, crippled, paralyzed--were in these alcoves. One man had been an invalid there for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him stretched out by the pool and knew how long he had been there, he said, "Do you want to get well?" The sick man said, "Sir, when the water is stirred, I don't have anybody to put me in the pool. By the time I get there, somebody else is already in." Jesus said, "Get up, take your bedroll, start walking." The man was healed on the spot. He picked up his bedroll and walked off.

Notice that the sick man was laying by the pool in hopes of being healed, yet Jesus still asked the man "DO YOU WANT TO GET WELL?". The man may have just enjoyed the attention of his friends bringing him everyday to the pool and did not want to get healed, so the question was relevant. 38 years was a long time for the person to have been coming every day and missed his opportunity to be healed. If a person does not want healing, healing will not take place.

As far as what motivated me to finally get help for my problems, so that I would also stop hurting others? My children. I saw them hurting as a result of my PA's, and EA. Yes, I hurt my then husband too, but I truly felt that a lot of blame rested also on him (guilty of his own PA, and very cold, unloving, unattentive behavior towards me) but the children were innocent and they love their father. So I started going to IC, and it was a VERY painful, long drawn out process. Through much of it, my "friend" was supportive of me, a shoulder to cry on. (husband made fun of me, called me "physcho") Through therapy I found that my desperate need for "love" and "approval" by everyone, in any way they would show it, was a result of the complete lack of appropriate love and care taken of me during childhood. But eventually in my therapy I realized that this EA was also making it impossible to improve my marraige, so we agreed to end it, with him actually moving to another country, it was so hard. For 5 years I continued therapy, talking to my husband about coming to counseling with me. I actually found MB at that point, and eventually lowered myself to begging him to just fill out the EN questionaire, or just come to 1 session of MC with me, or a retreat weekend or ANYTHING. He refused, only crazy people needed counseling. Finally such anger and resentment grew between us and we divorced. That's when my old "friend" and I got together. I feel as if I'm fairly "cured" at this point, except the residual low self esteem, sorrow, depression, on and on. But I don't have the urge any more to seek love and approval from everyone I run across. I know there are only certain places where it is right to receive love from, your mate, your parents (in a more healthy family) your children, and to a certain extent, friends. I'm NOT saying you should hang around and be abused in hopes of helping someone you love, just because they had a difficult childhood. BUT if they are extremely motivated to change, then I do believe it's possible!

I'm curious as to what you define as "get away with it". We have been in counseling before and close to divorce.

How long were they married? Did they have children? Who was the offender and the offense?

ask me...

I have been posting on various forums for a few weeks, just to get additional perspective. I don't expect people to make a decision for me, but there are people all over the world who have had similar experiences, who have an unbiased view.

Some have been helpful, but I must say yours wins the Grand Prize.

My husband has told me that these forums are worthless because the people who are here are generally female and will be against him.

Then I posted on a men's forum and he said that "normal" men don't go to web forums. Also, because they weren't supporting him.

He wouldn't be saying those things if the people in these forums supported his position instead of critisizing him.

I sent him your post, I can't wait to see what he has to say about that!

Thanks and keep it coming.

Last night I stood before 100 men and spoke to them about my struggle with sex addiction. 3 years ago if someone had told me I would have been doing that I would not have believed them because I was in the midst of my acting out. Now I encourage others who struggle that they can overcome the addiction, but they have to want to overcome it.

What are the "symptoms" of a sexual addiction. What things should I look for or questions should be asked?

Sexual addiction is defined as a condition in which some form of sexual behavior is employed in a pattern that is characterized by two key features, 1) recurrent failure to control the sexual behavior, 2) continuation of the sexual behavior despite significant harmful consequences.

The reason I had suggested letting your husband read Patrick Carnes book earlier is that Patrick Carnes developed the model for sexual addiction and did a lot of the initial research on the subject. His book Out of the Shadows goes through a discussion of sexual addiction and talks about some case studies. I think by reading the book your husband might be able to see if he can relate to some of the information. But he has to be honest about how he feels as he reads the book and not hide what he is feeling.

I pulled those two statements from the 1st post. Your husband knows he has a problem, but the problem is confusing to him because he does not understand how he could be doing it, so what does he do? He tries to justify it somehow.

In my marriage I did not understand my problem. I knew there was a problem so I blamed my wife for not having the same sexual desires I had. What I didn't understand is that two people can have problems and one person can have a very serious problem. And mine was the serious problem. It didn't mean my wife didn't have problem. We both came from dysfunctional families and that is what makes our life complicated.

Our counselor asked my wife why she decided to marry a sex addict, which of course offended her. But he said, you obviously picked him, do you know why? Then she had to think about it. So here is a summary of why from both of us.

My mother was divorced twice by the time I was 5. She supported me and my half brother. My mother depended upon me for her emotional support. In essence I became her surrogate husband taking care of the house, taking care of the yard, taking care of the cars, taking care of my brother, taking care of her emotional needs. I bought her gifts for her birthday, mother's day, christmas and some other special occasions and I made sure I had cards that were signed with I love you mom. Everything was done to keep her happy and make her feel special.

My wife grew up in a very unloving home. Her grandmother rejected her and basically treated the other grandchildren special while ignoring her. Her parents were always fighting, debating over divorce, never once saying I love you, holding hands or kissing goodbye or hugging. It was a cold unaffectionate home.

Along came me who was use to feeding my mom with all the special attention and I didn't mind doing the same for my new girl friend. My new girl friend didn't mind receiving the attention because she was starved for it so she gave me the appreciation I was seeking. Eventually we married. Dysfunction married dysfunction.

It's hard for my wife to admit at times that she has her own set of problems to deal with. There are things she needs to work on in our marriage that can help me. But independent of that I have to work alone and take my own responsibility to correct my own problems. My problems are mine to deal with and her problems are hers to deal with.

Ask Me

Thanks for sharing. I have found this site to be the most balanced. Every other that I post on says "DIVORCE HIM REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING" It's amazing that people lack perspective.

I truly appreciate you sharing your story. It says alot. However, I think your steps to admit and work on your problem is quite rare and commendable.

I'm concerned that my husband's ego is way too large for him to attain your level of humility.

He describes his behavior merely as "poor choices" and doesn't yet see that it was a reflection of his morals and values and his willingness to repeatedly bring pain and discontent to our marriage. He valued himself and his relationships more than he did me, our marriage and our children. Despite his constant attempts to get me to believe that he is FINALLY willing to work on change (only because I went to see a lawyer), I truly don't think he has the ability to be monogomous.

iluvmy2 it sometimes takes a while for humility to come about. In my case it took the prayers of a wife. Sometimes I wonder if I have the ability to remain monogomous, but then I look at my progress and there have been such great changes. I wouldn't give up all hope.

Melody

How would you define Recovery? Is is just the fact that I found out about his friendship(s), we argued about it and saw a counselor once or twice and eventually "made up" with his promise to do better but no real change in our relationship or is it Dr. Harley's definition of taking a close look at what caused the affair, the role that we both played and an honest attempt to repair what we each percieved as broken.

We didn't take the latter route and that is one of the main things that causes me to sit on the fence.

I'm curious about what their "motivation" was. Him repeatedly hurting me and causing problems in our marriage has not been enough motivation for him in the past.

Finding out that I went to see a divorce lawyer seemed to set a fire in his pants.

Mrs. Stowawy,

I guess he would fall into the category of working on himself hard. He keeps himself in shape physically and maintains his personal appearance. He also works on the inside, to some degree.

That may be part of the problem. Because of the conditions he grew up in, he is constantly trying to prove himself and do better and better. He also has a very large ego which constantly needs to be fed. He requires regular validation despite his shell of being self confidence. The fact that he is attractive and is in a profession where he runs into a lot of women helps to feed his ego and provides easy sources of "opportunity".

Welcome, though sorry you are here.

Two comments on your situation:

1. Don't forget, in a M, YOU can set the standard as to what is acceptable to you. You don't need to prove to your husband that his behavior is unacceptable by finding evidence in websites and other peoples comments. It is enough for YOU not to find his behavoir acceptable. End of story. Also, no amount of external evidence is going to convince him, he has to discover that on his own.

2. May I be so bold as to guess why your WH is doing this? An A is a means of escape, like a drug. Attention from women feeds his own personal insecurities. Also, when someone doesn't know you well, which is the case with these women, it is easy to be Perfect in their eyes....he is seeking to overcome his feelings of personal inadequacy through the attraction of women. Is this accurate? If so, does he recognize his motive for the As--and his personal insecurities. This realization (the cause for his behavior and what he gets out of it) is ESSENTIAL to his own personal recovery, which must occur before any M recovery can begin (in my VHO, that is.)

Have you considering working with Steve Harley?

Ahuman

You hit the nail on the head.

He has not yet reached the point where he has either recognized or is willing to admit that this behavior is connected to his personal insecurities. He currently states that the A's happened because he wasn't completely happy in the M and wasn't getting what he needed from me and that A's are just something that many men do, so he is "normal".

I am looking to see if through his IC he recognizes his significant need for attention and constant validation. This is what his therapist and I feel comes from the childhood issues, that he didn't get enough attention as a child and a teen and he is trying to make up for it. I don't think that we will be able to rebuild if he fails to recognize this issue.

I sent him quote that said "Nothing is enough for a man where enough is too little".

So I've asked him to make a list of what he "needs" in order to be happy and I have to decide if I am willing and able to meet those needs. I will make the same list and he will have to decide if he is willing and able.

Ahuman

One other thing. How do you "work with Steve Harley". I've seen sections on this site where people sent him letters, but couldn't find a place to send one.

houston we have a problem.

big one.

as the xw of a repeat offender, I can say my views on things. my xh was married once briefly before me. he is also in sales although now head of an investment firm...

his hunting ground has been females he comes into contact with via financial business...or in the case of his present affair wife, probably met her at a strip club.

you have mentioned you've already let many deal breakers thru. he has no boundaries.

and I may make a few here angry when I say this...but this is truthful.

His pattern is what it is.
*he has to want to complete therapy..want to participate...want and take ACTIVE steps to stop his behavior
*he has not faced any real consequences for his actions. he knows he will get his wrist slapped by you for the little "oral" incident...hey, even our xprez said "it isn't sex"..

My problems I see with men and women like this is that they make choices. real choices. and we FIND LABELS AND SICKNESSES TO ENABLE THEIR BAD BEHAVIORS. THEY HAVE DONE BAD THINGS AND WE WANT TO GIVE EVERYBODY AN ILLNESS OR SYNDROME TO COVER UP SIMPLY WHAT MAY BE JUST STUPIDITY, SELFISHNESS, NARCISSISM, OR BECAUSE THEY JUST WANT TO DO IT.

my xh is not mentally ill. h e has made serious horrible choices. well he may also have narcissism...but that is not something that MAKES you do anything. unless you're completely schizoid and hear the voices and see the hallucinations, you're not gonna go out and do crazy crazy things ok?

I was treated badly by my mom growing up. bordered on abuse. I do not abuse my ds. Or any child. and many people said that I could have done that...nah. not in me. I was married to a man who at the end of my marriage treated me horrendously. suffered mental abuse from him and a few incidents (isolated) of physical abuse. did it make me run out and do horrid things to others? nah. why?

I refuse TO LET MY PAST DICTATE MY PRESENT OR MY FUTURE...IT IS MINE. MY LIFE...AND I CHOOSE WHAT TO DO OR WHAT NOT TO DO...THE ACTIONS ARE MY OWN. STUPID, IMMORAL, GOOD, OR WISE..THEY ARE MY ACTIONS.

I see alot of bs' here who explain away their ws actions. why? I simply feel it is easier to assign a label like "mentally ill" or "he's out of it" or "he has something wrong with him" rather than simply say...the man/woman has had a breach with morality and is doing horrible things because IT IS THEIR CONSCIOUS CHOICE AND THEY WANT TO DO WHAT MAKES THEM FEEL GOOD AND COULD GIVE A RATS' BUTT ABOUT THE BS AND FAMILY AT HOME.

it's not as politically correct to say this...

it's not to make you feel ok about the situation.

it is not to make you feel warm and fuzzy.

and my words are not intended for giving false hopes either.

some people change.

they have to WANT TO CHANGE.

they have to do more than TALK ABOUT IT...THEY HAVE TO BE 100 PERCENT COMMITTED TO DOING IT.

unless they are, they will fail.

that's it.

and YOU ARE UNABLE TO CHANGE ANY OTHER PERSON IN THIS WORLD...nobody has that kind of power. You can show a light, a beacon to them...but the other person has to want to follow the beacon of light.

get it?

Oh...and everybody reaches a crossroad. a point whether you make a right or left turn.

in my xh's choice it was to cheat or not. and he took the wrong path.

I remember being at my crossroad also. it was during the divorce trials. I felt like breaking down. I went to work, struggled financially although having a good job, and had no support circle here in the flesh here in this state...no family. just a few friends.

I almost gave in. My counselor I was seeing showed me her beacon. she had been there where I was. during that time she sought her phd. she decided she could give in...eat bonbons all day, live on welfare (buying bon bons with the money), dig a hole into the ground and fling herself inside as she didn't know if she could make it or not. she said "I choose NOT to do that."


and she went out and got phd.

and then a few years later she met me and shined some light on me...

and i said "I choose NOT to do that."

two months later I was elected president elect of my state medical society.

Just like your ws has choices to make...so do you. what do you choose now?

what you choose is what you allow to enter your life. If you choose to better yourself, and choose success, and choose your family does that include a ws? an unrepentant ws? Or do you choose to let that person in if they do what is needed and take the actions needed to first change their life?

your wh is at the crossroad. He's been barrelling down the wrong road for sometime. He is working with a therapist and not really working at all. does he want to "work the program?" or does he want to say he tried and that it just can't help him?

he chooses to do what he wants and feels that he wants to do. so do you though.

Just Peachy

Thanks for taking the time to give me your perspective. I really appreciate it.

===========================================================
"*he has to want to complete therapy..want to participate...want and take ACTIVE steps to stop his behavior
============================================================

He went to therapy "voluntarily" and has been to about 5 IC sessions and one MC session. He "says that he will go as long as he needs to.

============================================================
he has not faced any real consequences for his actions. he knows he will get his wrist slapped by you for the little "oral" incident...hey, even our xprez said "it isn't sex".."
===========================================================

The past consequences was extreme damage to our relationship and some "temporary" counseling. He claims to be more committed this time because he claims that he is tired of lying and living that lifestyle and doesn't want to loose his wife and family. I went to see a divorce lawyer and was prepared to file.
Since you have had a similar experience, I'm curious as to whether your xh went to therapy at any point. Also, you mentioned that this was he second marriage and he is on to his 3rd. Did the 1st end because of infidelity?

============================================================
He is working with a therapist and not really working at all. does he want to "work the program?" or does he want to say he tried and that it just can't help him?
===========================================================

I'm a little confused by this comment. He's been going to the therapist every other week since this incident occured. He says that it is helping him, but I think it will take a few more months before we know for sure. That will show if he sticks with it and If I see, hear and feel a change.

Ah, another man in need of spiritual brokenness before God. Humility. Developing a heart for serving, instead of self... sounds familiar.

It's amazing you said that. We were having a "discussion" this morning and I said to him that he doesn't have an ounce of humility.

So he says to me, "what do you expect me to do, get on my knees and fall to the ground in tears like I'm broken down?"

He definately didn't mean it in the biblical context but that opened the door for me to know explain how God sometimes has to break you for you to understand.

Is he Christian?

We ALL need to get on our knees and fall to the ground in tears broken down before God. Your WH isn't unique in that! Why does he feel he's exempt from grace and mercy? There is the heart of the matter.

MSA

iluvmy2 - the perfect verses popped out this morning for your WH... and again, forgiveness and mercy isn't something he alone needs to seek. It is required for us all. He just seems particularly unaware of that at the moment...

The context of the verses is the Second Coming.

[color:"blue"] Isaiah 2: 11-12

The day is coming when your pride will be brought low and the LORD alone will be exalted. In that day the LORD Almighty will punish the proud, bringing them down to the dust. [/color]

I am a person who loves quotes because I think they have the ability to sum up a thought in a few powerful words.

There are two that I have come across recently that apply to this situation.

"He who exalts himself will be humbled and he who is humbled will be exalted" - My husband needs to be humbled.

"Nothing is enough for a man where enough it too little" - For my husband, a loving wife and two beautiful children wasn't enough. For my husband, one affair wasn't enough.

bump

?bump

That's a new one for me.

What I mean by "get away with" is that there is nothing to stop him from having affairs. There are no consequences so he has no motivation to end his affairs.

I would also add that much of what your H says sounds very much like what a person, who is insincere, and only doing what he has to in order to get his someone off his back and then go back to business as usual.


The biggest problem I see here is not his infidelity, but your lack of acceptance and the feeling that you can change him. It is all for naught to psychoanalyze him. All the psychoanalysis will not overcome an unwillingness to change. The bottom line is that he doesn't want to change and no one in the world can change him. Not even God will come down and change this man against his will. He gives us the freedom to choose good or evil.

But you will drive yourself crazy if you think you can change him. You can't change this man, only he can change himself if he chooses. And he doesn't choose. He is perfectly happy with himself as he is, and only wants to get you off his back. That means that you must ACCEPT him how he is and decide for yourself if you can live in a polygamous marriage.

iluvmy2 asked: what does "working with" SH mean?

Steve Harley does phone counseling. He comes highly recommended by the people on this site who have used him and ALL he does is situations of infidelity from what I understand--so he would be the expert. If you have the money, I would guess that you couldn't spend it more wisely as far as your M is concerned.

Also, I question whether IC is going to get your WH to see himself from the outside and acknowledge the source of his As.....from what you are saying about him....he sounds to me like he needs an SEE (significant emotional event). A shock to the system. It sounds like you have protected him from his own actions and carried the blow. Why have you done this? (Please don't be offended, I am not questioning your motive--only asking what the motive was).

Courage to you. This sounds like a very painful and tough situation!

Melody,

Your are right. I thought that the crying, arguments, lack of sex and threats of divorce were enough of a consequence, because it would have been for me.

Obviously the pain he was causing me wasn't not a sufficient deterrent for him.

His motivating factor this time was that I was moving forward with divorce.

I'd love any other suggestions on other consequences that you have heard are effective.

iluvmy2, I added onto my message so as not to mess up your thread, will you please read it? I don't think there is a darn thing you can do to change him. I think the answer is acceptance, I am sad to say.

Ahuman,

You are right about the SEE. What I considered an SEE in the past, obviously wasn't.

I think that his knowledge of my desire for a divorce was his first SEE of the relationship. However, I'm not sure how effective that will be if I don't follow through.

I wholly agree with Melody--you CANNOT change him. And in trying to change him you are actually doing the work that he needs to do--further shielding him and delaying any growth.

Call Steve if you can afford it.

Also, you did not answer my question about the reason you have stayed this long? (again, not questioning your motive just wondering what it was?)

Ahuman

The counselor asked the same question. The only answer that I could come up with was that I never has "solid" proof of what I then considered an affair, which was a sexual affair.

However, as others have highlighted to me, he didn't respect my requests to end contact with his female "friends" or recognize how he was hurting me with his female "friends" and that should have been enough.

Now I have real proof of all of it.

One of the AHAAAA's that I have gotten from these forums is the role that I played in allowing him to get away with it and what did I do differently each time.

So, I decided to do something today that I never did in the past.

I asked him for the home, work and cell phone number of the woman who he had the 8 year affair with. I wanted to check his cell phone bills to see if he had been in touch with her.

He refused and said that he didn't want to get anyone involved. INVOLVED, ****** SHE'S BEEN INVOLVED FOR 8 YEARS. I asked him again two more times and he has refused.

This was the sign that I had prayed for, to help me get off the fence.

I'll be calling my attorney tomorrow.

Thanks all for you help. I guess I'll head over to the Divorce/Divorcing board now.

You can still post here too of course in GQ...
Good luck with your attorney, I hope you have a level-headed, experienced attorney who helps you to take things slow and calm. I really appreciated that about mine.

And you're right, your H not giving the #'s is not a good sign about where his head is at right now...

MSA

Please read on willing2waits thread, the advice she is receiving could be very helpful to you.

Such as not apprising him of your actions.

Getting all of you ducks in a row--and moving forward with a clear plan.

Start taking out and saving cash.

I am not a BS and others could advise you much better, but those that I have seen on the board that are successful (meaning no longer entangled in this mess either in a healtheir M or D)--are those that stick to their RESOLVE by identifying clearly with what they want and fighting for it! It appears to be a fierce battle--so be prepared to STAND FIRM....and it seems that you have been an enabler (you said: "the role that I played in allowing him to get away with it") so being aware of your own weaknesses in this respect will help you a lot to stay firm and be strong.

Good luck to you and keep posting, you should get some great help here.

Ahuman,

Do you have a link for waitings...... thread?

I actually went to see the lawyer back in November and we started getting things together then i.e. W's, financial statments, etc. I've even hidden all of my valuable jewelry including my wedding ring in case I need to sell anything.

I am hoping to be able to use divorce mediation and my lawyer and I discussed the pros and cons of that. I will be calling some of the mediators that she recommended this morning.

I get my bonus next month, so that is what I will use to pay my retainer and then put the rest away.

What a surprise. He has now volunteered to let me call whoever I want!

A whole lot too late, buddy.

I'm not sure what transpired between the point where he said he would not give up the numbers and the point where he said you could talk to anyone. But if he is ready to allow you to talk to anyone, he is a step closer than many men who hold multiple affairs. Even if under threat, many won't turn over phone numbers or names. It provides too much access to the truth, which is what they are guarding against.

If you would like to see if he really wants to hold himself accountable, ask him to take a lie detector test with the counselor. Some sex addiction counselors will use lie detectors to get to the general area of the truth.

I don't want people giving up easily, but I don't want them wasting their lives on wasted effort. There was an excellent movie once on The LifeTime Channel, Sex Lies and Obsessions with Harry Hamlin and Lisa Rinna in which a doctor had a sex addiction. His wife found out and once she knew it was an addiction gave him a chance using the lie detector as a tool. Great movie if no one has ever seen it before. It was a true story and at last count the doctor and wife were still together and the doctor was staying clean.

AskMe

Because I have been sitting on the fence and it has been emotionally draining, I asked God to give me a sign so that I could know my direction and do what was necessary to go in that direction. I was tired of being stuck.

Deciding to ask that question was the item that I needed. I had never done that before. I told him that words don't mean anything without the actions to back them up. This was his opportunity to demonstrate that he was willing to do WHATEVER it took to prove to me that he hasn't had any contact with this person. He chose to protect her. He chose her over me, our marraige and our children.

I actually never planned to call her, I just wanted to check his cell phone bills to see if he had called her.

He changed his mind because I told him that he failed and that I finally got the answer from God that I needed and now my direction is clear.