did I think I would be in this position.

Contact has been broken. I am almost back to square one.

If I ever needed you all it is now.

Are you back to square one or is H back there or both? Sorry I am not your best bet but I am awake.

(((((Jen)))))

I think you need to tell us a bit more. You know we'll be here for you. A BBQ sounds like a nice idea don't you think.

I am back to almost square one. Not H. Not quite.

BigK why oh why didn't I listen to you. I know I should have.

A BBQ sounds like a fine idea.

Oh shoot, I've lost my link to the BBQ. The computer crashed today and we had to do a complete recovery.

email me Jen - williams at smartchat dot net dot au

LOL, Traic, not my best bet but awake.

What an offer. LMAO

Done, BigK

'a complete recovery'....is that what is needed?

L.

Sorry. Wasn't my intention to offend. I was just considering the time zones we are all in and I simply meant that I wanted to try and support you in any way I could even though someone with my limited experience and in my particular situation might not be best positioned to help. Apparently we are of the same opinion.

You didn't offend. It was a joke.

Going to bed now. Talked to some very good friends.

I don't understand, Kiwi. Contact has been broken?

or is it No Contact has been broken?

I hope you feel better today...

Jen - who contacted whom?

WAT

i feel sick....:(

Kiwi: We're here for you. Step back. Please, you and H have worked so hard.

Let's talk

will be praying for you Kiwi. Will be here for you too.

Awwww kiwi

I was there the first day you talked to BigK...I am sorry that things seemed to have spiraled. Love ya chickie and you will get through this. (HUGS)

candice.louise@gmail.com - email anytime or see you in bbq.

Jen

Obviously I know nothing of your situation. If I can help ping me thru minidiotville.

Praying for you anyway.

{{{{my friend Jen}}}}

What is BBQ?

Hugs Kiwi.

An E-group unrelated to MB we are both members of res.

Thanks bunches, bob. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok, Jen,

Stop with the mystery and spill the beans. What is up and what has happened?

JL

I know

NOTHING

but I have intuition

and it says to me

this may be about another MB poster

.... Pep

No, Pep, the OM has been showing up at the places she frequents. He thought it would appear accidental, but Jen knew it wasn't.

She and her husband need to be in everyone's prayers.

No it's not about another MB poster. Tee hee (geez, I can laugh) I know everyone thinks Robby and I have a thing going but I CAN ASSURE EVERYONE it is friendship.

This is about the real live OM.

Anyway, here's the deal. I posted quite a bit of this on Traic's post so bear with me if you've already heard this.

OM bumped into me completely and utterly by accident at the grocery store about 3 weeks ago. I was very pleased that I felt totally indifferent, no heart pitter patters, no head rush etc. So.....I didn't think it would hurt to talk with him. So I did. Same thing, just as though I was speaking with any old friend I may have bumped into.

I didn't tell Rob when I got home. Nothing had happened, I felt nothing, I didn't want to worry him for nothing. FIRST BIG MISTAKE. I told the others on BBQ and they implored me to tell Rob but I thought I could handle it.

Over the next couple of weeks, I kept seeing OM's car. For 2 years it hasn't been seen, suddenly I was seeing it everywhere. Part of me was a bit flattered. He obviously hadn't got over me like I'd got over him.

Finally, he managed to be in the same place as me at the same time and asked if I'd like coffee. SECOND BIG MISTAKE. Despite what everyone thinks about these meetings, with me anyway, they are general chit chat meetings, not anything about missing each other or even anything slightly romantic. We talked about his son's wedding, my daughter's trip. I thought, wow, I can do this and it's not going to lead to anything.

After coffee he said, how about a drink on Friday night. Now, the warning bells were going off big time but I was getting sucked in again and I have no excuses at all. I said I would.

At the drink he started laying on the charm again. How he'd always needed to see me and wanted to keep seeing me but "just as friends." I could feel the slippery slope opening up before me.

He said, I'll be in touch.

All weekend I've stewed about telling Rob and coming clean and putting all this behind me once and for all. Last night I talked for a long time with BigK and another MBer (female) about all this. I haven't been sleeping again.

Well, there's even more. I just couldn't tell Rob, sorry BigK, I promised. This morning I was walking up the hill to work (it's Monday) and who should stop but the freaking OM. He put down his window and said with a big smug smile "everything ok, no issues?" I said are you kidding me? I also said "No way am I going this way again. I think you're a ****** and I don't think you even have a conscience." He said "I probably am and I probably don't".

OMG, do you know HOW CLOSE I CAME TO BEING INVOLVED WITH THIS MAN AGAIN.

That was 15 minutes ago.

Hey, they edited my word. I particularly wanted it to be there.

{{{{{{Jen}}}}}}}

Thank goodness you see this and he admits it, although I'm sure his response was him trying to be flip.

Jen, you did good. You do know where you said it was only "chit chat" was how this all probably started in the beginning, no?

When are you going to tell Rob?

Jo

Jen,

Got the 2x4 right here. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? You have hurt your marriage again, because you have been lying to your H by omission, AND you have placed your marriage in danger.

It is time to get honest with your H. He is going to feel incredibly insecure because you have carried all of this out under his nose again and did NOT tell him until it was over (I presume you have finally come to your senses and will NOT see or speak with OM again).

Now you understand why Harleys says NO CONTACT ever again. Although you may feel you have done nothing wrong, the very fact that you won't tell you H is proof that you know you have. You have hurt your marriage, your H should know and will know if you tell him that you cannot be trusted.

NC, is NOT just about the wayward person and the other person, it is about the spouse and the marriage.

KiwiJ, you need to tell your H, and you need to get a grip on this NOW.

Putting the 2x4 down now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Please KiwiJ think about what you have done and realize that your OM is probably not above contacting your H or saying something if he ever bumps into him.

God Bless,

JL

Jen - I think you need to move away from the area. If I were Rob, I would be furious. Even though nothing happened, you took chances with your husband's feelings.

Confess to your husband and offer to move away.

I know all that JL.

I have work to do now (I mean work at work).

Thank you everyone for your support. I feel I don't deserve it. I hope you realise it's the trust I have in you and the respect I have for you that meant I could come here and tell you something that was very hard to admit to.

Kiwi,

Do you suppose you didn't tell your H about the breach of NC - not because you thought you could handle it, but because you didn't WANT to be accountable?

It sounds like all along you hoped OM would contact you again after the initial time he did - even found it flattering that he would pursue you in such a manner.

One minute you enjoy the attention and the next you call him names.

Who would want the attention of a *******???

Why would YOU want attention from a *******?

These are needs that your H should only have access to!

Why are you calling OM a *******? These are choices YOU made and these circumstances have been created by you.

This a a massive 2X4, perhaps even offensive or cruel. I apologize, but this needs to be said.




Kiwi--------if you were my wife you would not be married to me anymore. I know all of us said that we would get a divorce if there was infidelity and we didn’t. However, that was the 1st time around. Many of us would certainly pull the plug after something like this. (the 2nd around).

Before the A------ the threshold for me to get a divorce was a wide as the Pacific Ocean. After the affair the threshold is paper thin for the obvious reason.



I don’t know your H, but I have to assume he thinks like I do. I will be brutally honest with you. I have discussed the issue of a chance meeting between OM and Myrta and I trust Myrta will immediately notify me. In fact this happened and OM wanted to have coffee with Myrta. IMHO, having coffee with OM implies that the WW is basically a heartless person--------perhaps a monster that is willingly hurting the BH when there is no fog around to use as an excuse.

Meeting for a drink-------particularly when it was planned in advance is the kiss of death. If you were my wife you would be a goner. There is absolutely no excuse for what you have done.

Jen

I wrote this to you a long time ago :



Jen

OM is RIGHT NOW smiling a smug smile, with a semi-erection on thinking "I click my fingers and she comes running ! Yep ! the boy's still got it !"
He KNOWS he's a better man than Rob right now because you can't leave him alone. he KNOWS all the 'i'm over you' stuff was rubbish because he plays you like a drum.

And Jen ,Rob thinks he won back his baby with love and gentleness and forgiveness.

I worry at Rob's reaction if you tell him Jen, but I think he MUST know. If you are to have any chance of recovery you need to recognise your continuing vulnerability to OM contact. You have to take EXTRAORDINARY precautions against further contact if you are to have a chance of full recovery.

Rob's a gentler and more sensible sort than I, I am sure his reaction will be kinder than mine would be.

I think you need to tell him Jen. You CANNOT police contact with OM alone. You have proved that twice now.

Thank you to everyone who has helped me and who I hope I have helped over the past 2 years but I can't stay. Not because of the 2x4s but because I can never hold my head up again with people I've grown to love.

I guess I've confirmed that we really are pond scum.

Oh Jen, knock it off. All you have confirmed is what the Harleys say - that there can never again be contact.

You have helped hundreds here.

Now talk to your husband.

Don't be so silly.

Talk it out. Fix it. Infidelity has symptoms and indicated treatments. Extraordinary NC is one of them. You have clearly shown that such is needed.

If you leave here I suspect you will internalise this, resolve never to be so silly again, meet OM again, slip and it will all be horrible. Stay here, talk, talk to Rob and SECURE both your happiness' for the rest of your lives.

Tell Rob, expose to OM W too. Extraordinary precautions Jen. Praying for you mate.

JEN! This is not true!!!

You CAN hold your head up. You can choose to take positive actions any time you want to. There are many here who will support YOU and love YOU, even if we don't like your actions.

You are not despicable!!!

Please do not immerse yourself in guilt to the point of inaction!

You can do this.

Hi Jen,

I know telling your husband is scary. But whats your alternative? Leave MB so no one holds you accountable? That won't work because you'll know and it will eat at you.

When you met with OM didn't you think of the consequences? This is one of them. Being accountable.

Jo

Jennifer Anne - you promised before God too remember. Don't make me spank you!

Why not learn from this and help others? Why not use your experiences to give back to MB and be the loudest proponent of "NC for life, no exceptions, no excuses" on the board? Those words may have a bigger impact coming from a FWS than a BS and may prevent a lot of pain and heartache for many, many people in this world.

I won't say much about the facts, except that I see a world of difference between a chance encounter that you are nervous about mentioning to your FBS, and allowing chit chat yet alone planning to spend time with the OP for coffee or whatever.

The whole A, R, NC stuff boils down to this for me: how would you want to be treated if you were the BS? Not like this, I'm guessing.

Jen,

Knock it off. You aren't pond scum. Your contribution here is way too valuable and you know it. How many peple do you think you have reached over the years anyway?

BK

OK guys, you win. In the face of your support (I'm blubbering at work) I know I need to stay here.

But, right now, I do need to work (real work at work, work).

No one is judging you. Like the last poster wrote, stay and help others to know how addictive this is. Help us understand why you broke NC.

This won't be easy, Jen. telling your husband will be very painful for both of you. I know folks here will support you in doing it. But it has to be done. He deserves the truth. He deserves to decide for himself if he wants to stay married based on the truth. And you are withholding it.

One of the things that hurt the most during my husband's affairs was he kept the truth from me, which kept me from making decisions for myself based on the truth. I felt I was being manipulated.

Tell him.

Hi Jen,

I haven't really chatted with you before, but something you're doing right now really got my attention.

When you said this:


You're speaking from a place of shame and humiliation, from a place of feeling horrifically inadequate and powerless. In other words, you feel like complete crap about yourself.

And you're doing things that feed the cycle of feeling like crap.

What are they?

Hurting your own integrity with contact with the OM.
Hurting your integrity some more by not telling your husband.
Hurting your integrity some more by entering the cycle of shame/humiliation/despair/secrecy. It cycles on itself, you know.

So can I suggest to you that you take a moment to really look how you feel in the face? Just for a moment. Ten seconds. Really truly feel how utterly cruddy and awful you feel about yourself right now. Care to name that feeling? Do you have any words strong enough to express it? How does it make you feel, physically? Can you hear the self-talk (those are the ranting-at-yourself words you hear in your head when you're doing something that part of you doesn't like one bit).

Okay, now, don't panic. We're all here sitting with you while you feel that stuff. (Everyone else, no 2x4s for the moment. No matter what you say, the feelings Jen gets to experience are worse. Trust me on this one.)

So Jen. Now, I need your help remembering a few things about yourself.

First off, consider a small child. Maybe not even two years old. A little tiny one. And that little child, you come across in a completely desolate place -- a desert, maybe. You're lost in that place. Scared, alone, afraid you're going to die. You're feeling, in fact, very much like you do now, only worse. And yet, there is this tiny child. A tiny child who is maybe going to die, too, lost and alone and terrified.

And that child starts to cry because she is so completely terrified by the experience of this desolate place, by being completely alone in it, by being ready to die, in not very long, of thirst.

What do you do, Jen? I'm guessing, here. I'm guessing that you take the time to pick up that tiny child, that you take the time to comfort the child, and to share the bit of water you have with you. And I'm guessing you'd do that even if you were almost out of water and didn't know whether you'd ever get more.

I'm guessing that when that child started to whimper and then sob uncontrollably in fear and desolation, that you would comfort that child.

Imagine that.

You'd comfort that child.

Know how it feels when a terrified child finds comfort with you, Jen? Know how it feels when that child's sobs become tears, and then the tears become sniffles and hiccups, and then the hiccups become those big gasping breaths that are the last sign of the passing storm? Know how it feels when that child lays her head on your shoulder, puts an arm around you, rests her entire limp, exhausted weight against you -- and trusts, utterly, that you will protect her?

I bet you know what that feels like, Jen. I bet you -would- protect that child to the very best of your ability.

This is not an analogy Jen. I'm not comparing. I'm working you through a very important exercise. Come along with me, okay?

Hold that child, asleep and quiet and trusting, next to your chest as you walk through the desolation with me a little further.

You love people. I know that you do. Can you see their images? Remember who they are, the details of what they're like?

You are a member of a community. This one, others in real life. You've done fun, useful, productive things with your communities. Remember what they are, remember that you're a member of them.

You have done kind things for people -- you've acted compassionately. Remember the last time you did something like that? A time when on this very board you took the time to answer some newbie's question, responded to someone's pain, offered comfort when someone was desolate and losing hope? Take the timde to think of at least three of them.

You love, I bet, some aspects of nature. Remember some glorious scenes that you've seen in your life? You live in one of the most beautiful countries in the world. You've looked up from your computer at various times in your life -- remember the glory that you've seen?

You have also, I suspect, seen or heard or read or felt manmade things that have moved you to tears. Music or art work or a finely crafted machine or a beautifully decorated home or a wonderfully done garden -- remember what those look like?

You know that there is something larger than you are out there. You might call it God or the Universe or something else, but you know it and have felt complete wonder and awe at experiencing it.

At your core, Jen, these are things that you are. Can you feel that feeling that comes when you think of these things? Can you sense the peace, the wonder, the awe, the love that flows through you when you know them? It's a very important thing, experiencing these emotions.

THESE are the core of who you are. Not the rest of that stuff. THESE are the things that make up who you are.

Sure, you have feelings of inadequacy and shame and powerlessness and unlovableness. Everyone does. Can you have a little compassion for yourself? That's not the same as free rein to continue the things that are hurting you. It -is- giving yourself a little understanding, a little acceptance that you're imperfect.

Don't cycle back to the awful place, now, just because I reminded you about that stuff. Keep focusing on the peace and compassion that you felt when you were thinking about the good stuff.

This is the place where you can find solutions to the problem you face. This is the place where you can, with a clear head and a compassionate heart, understand the actions you need to take.

So, Jen -- tell me. What small things can you do to change the situation, to make it just 5% better? You don't have to solve the whole thing right now. It's taken you a few weeks to get into it, it'll take a while to get out as well.

Just go do that small, tiny thing that can begin to make it better. Something that will change your experience of the situation, something that will make you feel a little more whole and honest and clear, something that repairs your integrity just a little tiny bit.

When you're done, would you come back and tell us about what it was?

[The exercise above is taken from Steven Stosny's work. I've found it to be very, very useful.]

actually... you and Rob win. And that is what should happen. the married couple should win. And the OP should take a long walk off a short pier.

I won't ride you for what has happened, though I had a fairly surprised, WTF response to it. ****** of a way to learn again that open and honest from the first second is really the only way.

Face your fear and reassure all you can. I hope it goes well for you.

love and hugs jen......

JustJ -

Wonderful post.

KiwiJ


JL once told Myrta that NC is for life. JL also said Myrta will always have a soft spot for OM. Therefore NC FOREVER was the basis of a sound recovery.

Myrta was a foggy as any WW on this board. Any harm she did to the marriage (or myself) was done with the excuse of the FOG.

I was doubtful about the existence of the FOG. However, I now believe in the FOG because without the FOG Myrta’s actions could only be described as 100% evil. I don’t want to believe I am married to a monster, therefore I believe in THE FOG.

If Myrta did what you did outside the FOG I would have no explanation or justification for her actions. I would be very disappointed and I would actually feel repulsion. There is a fine line between hysterical bonding and repulsion. I believe I would feel repulsion the 2nd time around.

I spent a lot of time reading TOW. I am 100% convinced these OMs will always be seen as hot stuff by the WWs-----despite evidence to the contrary. You still think OM is hot stuff-------I don’t have a problem with that. In fact I am sure Myrta still thinks her OM is great.

Marriage after the A will never be the same despite what Dr H says. IN the post A marriage the WW must basically behave like a recovered alcoholic who can always be seduced again by the booze.

I don't think I've ever posted to you Kiwi. You have received great advice here and you do need to tell your H.

I have just noticed something else that bothers me. Does your husband know you talk privately to BigK? And BigK, does your wife know you talk privately to Kiwi?

You claim you and he are just friends, but I am SURE you both KNOW BETTER than to be talking privately. This is EXACTLY how I ended up with an ONLINE affair with the 2nd FOM! He was JUST a friend that was helping me with my marriage and moving past the first OM....months pass by and well....we ended up having an online affair.

You BOTH sound like you know each other a little TOO WELL...just an observation!

Stanley, I really, really do think Jen gets it. Actually when I have spoken with Jen over the last few weeks, I told her she was FOGGY. And she is. But slapping her isn't productive at this point.

Oh, Stanley...please know that I don't think of FOM as hot stuff...repulsive, horrific and much like the plague. I stay away.

I monitor my levels of entitlement, resentment and respect so that I maintain my repulsion...my DH just saw FOM on the street yesterday, for the first time in over a year and a half...

I shuddered.

I asked what he felt...anger, fear, pain and sadness...and that he was glad FOM didn't recognize his car or him, because then they would have both known the other existed.

I have shared a contact with a FOM from email with my DH. I did it immediately, from my honor code...and I know that I won't allow myself to get where I am complacent enough with myself, my choices, to not share. I'm not in this alone. I know I will never have another affair because I an faithful to truth, mindful of resentment, know that I'm entitled to nothing and respect others for their choices.

FOM was never hotstuff--they rarely are. My DH is my hotstuff...by choice.

LA

Hahahahahahahaha. Are you for real 2B - I don't think I need to be lectured you you on this.

But for the record - yes my wife DOES know. And it isn't a PRIVATE chat - there was another MB'er there as well. I have no problem protecting my boundaries. Do you?

2B you really do not know what you are talking about- they were not talking privately. There were others there.

I thought you were only lurking- but you come out of the woodwork when there is anything you can sensationalize- what about helping people instead of making accusations- the rest of us post to people who need help- not just when somthing 'big' is happening.

If you have so much wisdom to impart, why not post to some folks who are really hurting instead of just jumping in and making accusations.

Jen knows what she needs to do- she is well-schooled in the mb principles and I for one have faith that she will tell her husband and hopefully, they will be able to continue moving forward.

BigKahuna -
I ONLY read what I read on here & it was NOT obvious by what Kiwi wrote that either of your spouses know that you communicate with each other. And it was NOT obvious that another MBer was talking with you at the same time.

So my apologies if I had it wrong. And I AM glad I had it wrong! And YES, I have my boundaries protected VERY WELL!

Kiwi,

U met with the OM and after a few setbacks....you were able to get back on your feet.

This is good.

Now the sooner you own up to this, the better. Let your H know that there have been 'run ins' with the OM. You thought you were strong enough to handle it yet you also realize you need your H's support. BS' know this. Let him help you work it through.

Stop beating yourself up.

Btw, this is NOT the time to leave. It is more the reason to stay. We can help you and your H.

Did you think posting on MB would make you invincable? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

moveforward...I WAS concerned because I saw myself...I saw myself and how the online A started with the OM! Sorry for being concerned....as I KNOW I was wrong.

I have to assume that at some point you thought OM was hot stuff. What did OM do that made you change your mind? The reason NC is for life is because the WW will always have a soft spot for OM even if OM is considered repulsive. Maybe you are posting to convince yourself you have nothing left in the tank for OM. In fact KiwiJ have posted similar words about her OM. Under the right circumstances you could fall hard for OM. You sound lie a recovered alcoholic who thinks booze tastes bad therefore he can go to the bar to watch the ball game.





FOG?????????????????????????????????

At this stage of the ball game?


As I said before----without the fog we would have to look at certain behaviors and conclude they were simply rooted in selfishness, ruthlessness, and evil. I am not talking about the attraction for the OM--------that is a natural behavior. I am talking about taking conscious steps to hurt the betrayed spouse.

Let me give you an example: At this point I know the anatomy of an affair and infidelity like the palm of my hand. Right now I would have no excuse to have an affair. I simply could not pledge the ignorance defense. Anyone that knows affair anatomy would agree that KiwiJ knew exactly what she was doing. To claim the ignorance defense or the FOG is a joke. Now that we know the anatomy of the affair we know exactly ow the game is played.

Fog????????????


I don’t think so.

Perhaps KiwiJ will always love the OM and all the effort to recover her marriage was nothing more than going thru the motions because OM decided to end the affair. Maybe KiwiJ’s husband is truly the 2nd CHOICE.

Stan-ley. I have 2 words for you.

BUTT out!

YOu have no words of encouragement. NO empathy no understanind. This is a MARRIAGEBUILDERS site. A lot of your own control issues seem to render you incapable of understadning or empathy.

If you aren't here to help. Perhaps working on your own M might prove a more fruitful task thna your hateful posts. A replapse is ALWAYS possible. I find your holier than -thou attitude DISREPCTFUL and frankly hateful

FAA - Let him have his say. Jen is our 'friend' so we feel quite defensive but harsh words might be as necessary to her right now as our support. TT

TT there's a difference between harsh words and what Stan-ley posted. And Jen has had plenty of harsh words in this thread that didn't cross that line.

I think that Stan-ley's post as well as all others has value.
But, really that is for KiwiJ to determine.

I've only read his previous two posts. Stanley has worked hard to recover his marriage after his wife's affair. His reaction might be similar to how Jen's husband will react if he discovers deliberate contact. JMHO. TT

Jen...

Sending you prayers...you know how to make this right, and I am confident that you have what it takes to do it...

And, when you need a laugh, look no further than the post from 2B...


When you read it, know that you are sharing a good belly laugh with all your friends from around the world that get just how funny it is...may that laughter serve as comfort to you and remind you that you are not alone...

Yep, 2B, we know her well enough to know that she is going to do the right thing here...

Mrs. W

I don't know why anyone is surprised or shocked. It just proves the Harley's theory that there needs to be NC for life. Extraordinary precautions must be taken to never see the OP again.

He says that even 5 or 6 years later the affair can reignite on contact.

It is hard to believe, but I think he has it right.

I hope Jen and Rob will take extraordinary precautions and MOVE.

TT, Stanley went too far in my opinion...however, I know it is his fear talking and I am sure Jen will know that too. I remember how foggy Myrta was and I remember well the excruciating pain Stanley was in. This hits hard for many BS as it is their greatest fear and just confirms what Harley says NC for LIFE!

I would concur with bigK and I said this to Jen, that some things she has said to me in the past couple days sounded a big foggy. I love you, Jen and am here for you always.

Empathy:


The BS loses weight to the point of looking emaciated and chronically ill. The BS is unable to sleep, work, or even perform simple tasks. The sadness is overwhelming and is there every second of every minute, of every hour, of every day for at least two years. At some point the BS would rather die. As per the experts--------- perhaps the greatest blow a human will ever endure in the planet is infidelity . Some even say it is worse than losing a child.

Then the wayward spouse repeats the exact behavior that caused all that pain. IMHO-----------THAT IS LACK OF EMPATHY IN IT’S MORE PURE FORM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As I said before----one that knows the affair of an anatomy has no excuse for this behavior. Not all marriages can be saved-------many perish in the 2-5 year period after the affair.


If Myrta did what KiwiJ did I would not be interested in saving the marriage. And you know what. Myrta agrees with me. She would be the 1st one to tell you that at that point there is no marriage to save.

Kiwi Jen:

First,
Thanks for just FINALLY {wink} giving us the details of your very vague posting earlier today.

You had many of us not only worried, but also pulling our hair cause we THOUGHT you meant breaking NC with OM ........but you actually wrote Contact, and so there was the small possibility of meaning some kind of trouble with your H.

So again thanx for clearing that up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Next,
Just KNOW that probably yourself and another poster [Knew Better] were 2 of the Biggest Reasons my Opinions of WS's was able to slowly change.
I think that has Merit and meaning.

Also keep this in mind:
even your example and testimony TODAY,
Shows me that is was the RIGHT thing to do -------THAT Is to have my W quit her job, to find another one, to sell our house and to MOVE to Another State.

Yes,
sometimes many people doubt this whole business of "extreme measures" (even those of us that have already done it).
But Knowing your story lets us see that it shouldn't be Optional and that it is necessary to protect our marriages as well as our WS's from themselves.

Unfortunately,
Right NOW I know you are smarting at both yourself and the reactions here.
But its Fresh.
Please DO NOT make any firm decisions as whether to be here or not,
UNTIL
You have a least a brief time to let this all sink in and process itself in your head and heart.

I hope you stay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep, stupid, stupid, stupid. But you already knew that.

So now be smart, listen to your friends. Tell Rob about it and solve the problem WITH him.

Don't make me send Nikko down there with a Gucci shoe to beat sense back into you.

You will survive this. You will learn and grow. And I say that because I'm confident that you'll be wise enough to move in the right direction from here.

Lots of love!

Dobie

MrsW...I thought you had more class. I apologized for my post and you have to come back and bring it up again? You needed to poke fun at me?

sigh...............you come here and dish it out [out of "concern," of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />] on a regular basis and then whine "VICTIM" when you get it back. Why not wake up and stop dishing it out if you can't take it?

2B...

If you'll notice my post was to KiwiJ...NOT YOU, shocking as this may be, it's not always about you or your situation...what you said before is comical to some of us here...KiwiJ needs to feel like she belongs to a group that loves and supports her, not to mention, a small chuckle might raise her spirits a tiny bit now...sorry you aren't part of the inside joke there 2B...what you did was come along and suggest more trouble to someone that was already posting about their trouble...HOW IS THAT HELPING??? I don't dislike you, but sometimes you gotta understand that perhaps we all get used around here for the greater good, KWIM?

Mrs. W

I haven't read you all. I've read bits and pieces. I keep crying when I read posts from my Idiotville friends and people I've spoken to for a long, long time. I'm at work and trying to keep it together so I haven't read everything.

I'm not offended by Stanley, I'm not upset by Stanley. I would probably have written the same sort of thing to me. It's very weird knowing this post is about me.

2B, I don't think you know me at all. I do think you misread my first post. If you think I object to the unvarnished truth being given to me, however harshly, you are very, very mistaken.

Do you really think I wanted to come here and admit this horror to people I hold in high regard. I thought long and hard before I posted at all but I knew I had to be honest. It would have been just as easy to keep yucking it up on Idiotville as though there was nothing wrong.

Also, anyone who knows me, knows I won't keep this from my H. I am just very, very scared to tell him and, after reading Stanley's thread, I am even more scared to tell him.

But this needs facing and it needs facing head on. I need to know why I'm still vulnerable and why I did this.

Every word of what Stan-ley said is how I would feel. If gemela came to me and told me she had done this, I would be hurt but I would also believe her and would be grateful that she thought enough of me and trusted me enough to want to include me. That she believed in me enough to think that we could work through it together - and resolve it. Time is the killer here.

jen,

I don't know your husband and cannot predict what his reaction will be. I know this much: the passage of time and your delay in telling him will not make things better. Every day of delay in telling him will add yet another question mark on his part. I can think of no rational reason to delay unless you simply plan to not ever tell him. But you know you must, right?

Kiwi,
You are right in that I don't know you. Nor do you know me or my history. I reacted out of my "history" of what happened to me. I apologized in an earlier post and I hope you will accept that apology.

I realize that you are in a very scary place right now, and I'm very sorry for taking away from your thread. Please forgive me.

...stepping away now...

Jen, I am still picking up some of my marbles from earlier - maybe I can be profound later. But just know that I'm behind you on this, and I have every faith that you will make it right as far as possible, and avoid doing this ever again. God be with you, Birdgirl.

This will be a deal breaker.

Stanley is absolutely right. It is a deal breaker.

Mrs W, nothing at all could make me smile today but knowing BigK "too well" almost got me.

Guys, I'm absolutely drained. I can't come back on today.

Thanks to you all.

2B, you don't need to apologise.

Look, I just can't do this right now.

jen....i still love you.....i wish i could walk my gucci wearin self over there and hug ya!!!

i am praying for you and rob....

mmmmmmmmm

maybe it's productive for Stanley ...

and he matters too ya know!

Pep

PS ... I agree with Stanley ... I see no evidence of foggy-thinking ... no illogic-circular-thinking ... I see a woman who willingly walked straight into the danger zone with both eyes open.... reminds me of Low Orbit's coffee date with OW ...HE terminated his marriage by flaunting the agreed boundaries

how is this different???

Kiwi... I am _______ something .... no words

KiwiJ:

This has nothing to do about been a nice person or not. In fact you and your H are probably way above me in terms of having a good heart.

The laws of nature are clear-------any of us (and that includes me) can fall in love with someone other than the spouse. I have no problems with that concept.

Here is the deal:

If I am the one that falls for someone else I would hopefully do it in the open and end my marriage before doing the deed. It is also likely that if I fall in love with someone else I would not fall back in love with my wife. At least--------I don’t think I could do. I don’t love my wife because she meets specific emotional needs. I simply like the whole package and for me it was love at first sight.

The only reason I stayed married is because my wife wanted the marriage more than her OM----------That was obvious. OM was a dalliance----a supplement to a pretty good marriage------a way for Myrta to deal with MLC.

Myrta ditched OM like a dirty rag. In fact Myrta was ruthless with OM ------the poor guy never had a chance.

I never had to give comfort to my wife because she was grieving the loss of OM. I never had to fight to get her back. In fact I used to ask her to leave on a regular basis and I love-busted constantly degrading her OM. Recovering the marriage is the hardest thing I have ever done and I had to swallow a lot of pride. Like BP I also defined my manhood by having a wife that would not stray.

KiwiJ----your H is a great man---way better than me with a whole lot more empathy, less false pride, and a greater understanding of the human condition. If Myrta had wanted the OM I would have gotten rid of her. I don’t think I am man enough to put up a fight like your H did. I am not classy enough to keep my mouth shut and not say love busters in the aftermath of d-day.

I also believe that VERY FEW marriages recover from an affair. I bet that those that stay together simply learn how to live in a marriage where all the innocence and the magic is replaced by being practical and the concept of “lets do the best we can with what we have”.

KiwiJ----you wanted to leave your H for OM. I understand OM backed out of the deal. This means that H was second choice-----------no doubt. Maybe there is no such thing a complete recovery from this situation. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I would not want Myrta in that manner.

I know that the above is extremely harsh, but I truly believe that this is the reality of infidelity. I also believe that you have been fooling yourself when you say you feel nothing for OM. The truth of the matter is that you will always love OM. And you need to talk with H.

All that comes to my mind is yuck, yuck, yuck.

After all H and I have gone through, I cannot imagine being in your position.

(I don't think I have the energy in me!)

well here's the thing ...



I do not believe you ....

why?

because you are not stupid

I think you KNEW it would HURT your husband if you spoke to OM ... and so, you did not tell your H about it

and you did it anyway

it was not innocent

it was a sneaky taste of OM from the moment you spoke to him ... just admit it

I cannot stand the sugar-coating going on in this thread ... I just can't

Pep

Jen, I believe you when you say you're too tired to post right now. That's okay.

Save the energy for things that will really help you regain your integrity.

That starts with talking to your husband and getting right with yourself. You can do it. It will be hard -- and you can do it.

kiwij,

I was reading your post and I must have grimmaced because my husband asked me what was wrong? I asked him if he would give me a big hug. while we were hugging, I asked him to never hurt me again. He said NEVER...and squeezed me tighter. I thought to myself, how can H keep that promise? I squeezed tighter too....

Your thread scared me. Just the thought of my H ever seeing OW again scared the sh** out of me. I hope you are not to tired to tell your H right now. If you don't, it will hurt your H more than you could possibly understand (this coming from a BS point of view) Just remember, he deserves better, much better than to be cheated on twice, and in my eyes he has been.

In reading this thread, I see two different views here --

One group being her (Kiwi) friends. And, I do find it very honorable that her friends are supporting her. That is what friends are supposed to do and I think that is wonderful.

One group being those in support of MB principles.

And, not that her friend are not in support of MB principles ~ they are just giving advice in a more gentle way.

Does that make sense ??

Carnation

Jen:

Well, pigs can fly, 2, though not very often...


At the end of the day, there's still you and the baggage you carry. There's still 2morrow 2 face - 2morrow 2 define. I know you well enough 2 know that you won't let these events - a falling off the fidelity wagon of sorts - define you here on out.

You ARE a smart person. A thoughtful one, 2. I believe you will do the right thing and talk with your H about what happened and get his help in re-establishing NC. Maybe have HIM bump in2 OM next time? (prolly not a good idea, unless he's definitely not prone 2 violence).





Sadly, this stuff happens. Most of us remain human after our experiences with infidelity. And humans make dumb mistakes.

I'm eagerly looking forward 2 what you - the thoughtful Jen - decide 2 do next.

best,
-ol' 2long

"Empathy:


The BS loses weight to the point of looking emaciated and chronically ill. The BS is unable to sleep, work, or even perform simple tasks. The sadness is overwhelming and is there every second of every minute, of every hour, of every day for at least two years. At some point the BS would rather die. As per the experts--------- perhaps the greatest blow a human will ever endure in the planet is infidelity . Some even say it is worse than losing a child."

Um... ...that ain't "empathy" AT ALL. What you describe - what many of us here have felt at one time or another - is the shattering of the fairy-tale, happily-ever-after M that we thought we signed up for. It was never real, it was a figment of our imaginations. Our trust in our spouse (and theirs in us) was blind, and as such it was misplaced. It is certainly sad that we end up having 2 learn this lesson in such a hard way, but it is what it is.

I used 2 believe the adage that infidelity is a more terrible thing for a WS 2 do 2 a BS than the death of a loved one. I no longer believe that. And perhaps when the hurt is less fresh for you, you won't either.

"Then the wayward spouse repeats the exact behavior that caused all that pain. IMHO-----------THAT IS LACK OF EMPATHY IN IT’S MORE PURE FORM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

This assumes that the WS does this *to* the BS. First and foremost, they lower themselves by succumbing 2 their own selfish desires. Thus, they are hurting themselves. But it IS a lack of empathy. A fog-induced inability 2 be empathic.

As for the BS? After my own experiences with infidelity, I won't be blind-sided again. I didn't enjoy the victim mentality last time, and I couldn't be "forced" in2 it again. I've grown 2 much for that. That doesn't mean I'll be vindictive - I won't. Rather the opposite: I'll be empathetic.

"As I said before----one that knows the affair of an anatomy has no excuse for this behavior. Not all marriages can be saved-------many perish in the 2-5 year period after the affair."

How many? I'm really interested. We often hear stats about affair-based marriages having less than a 5% chance of surviving beyond 5 years. What about first marriages subjected 2 infidelity? Is it really "many" that fail in the initial post-A years?

"If Myrta did what KiwiJ did I would not be interested in saving the marriage. And you know what. Myrta agrees with me. She would be the 1st one to tell you that at that point there is no marriage to save."

But there was no marriage while the A was going on, either? Why try 2 save it then? More importantly, why not make something better?



I think Jen has the 2ls 2 make her fu2re a heckuva lot better than her past, and in my view most of her past since she came 2 MB and I've been reading here have been pretty productive.

This was an upset, 2 be sure. Her H has a right 2 make his own choices as 2 what he wants 2 do about this. They're going 2 have 2 slog through this, and it might be hard.

But ol' 2long's optimistic re their chances.

-ol' 2long

Pep:

Not quite the same thing as LowOrbit's coffee incident.

At the time, that seemed really dumb 2 me. Dumber, though, was his W's apparently over-hardened reaction 2 it. ...then, we learned that she was having an A, which explained (but certainly didn't justify) her reaction.

-ol' 2long

Two things I would say not to Jen, but to th eposters discussing this here.

1. This should be a wake up call to complacent FWS and BS in the mid period of their recovery that they must be vigilant FOR EVER. Jen & Ron were one of the most settled, and calmly advanced-recovering couples I know of, yet Jen deliberately and knowingly walked into a marital bear trap in response to the very slightest of provocation. HOWEVER recovered you may feel, ASSUME NOTHING ! ALWAYS remain vigilant. This surely reinforces a rarely-proved (on thee bards anyway) harley tenet that NC violations present the ultimat erisk to recovery and extreme precautions must be taken to avoid it.

2. However you feel about Jen's behaviour here, you really should not wish any 'just desserts' on her. Firstly because Rob is a gentle, smart man who loved her but mostly because ANY of us recovering couples are potentially a cup of coffee away from this same situation however vehemently we may reject the possibility.

I have already spoken to squid about the need for her to tell me immediately of ANY NC vilation in wither direction , as any secrets here will lead to disaster.

* Couldn't sleep because of thoughts of you and Rob and praying for you. You dug yourself in the sh1t darl' truly.

Think DEEP about your motovations in this, as pep suggests. You're FAR too smart andeducated in the ways of affairs to believe that "I thought talking wouldn't urt" horsesh1t.

If you want this OM, you MUST divorce Rob first. If you want Rob, you MUST NEVER EVER contact him again. You know this.

All blessings.

Jen,

You do realize that using a 2x4 is useless on pond scum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I may be dumb but even I know that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What I do know is that as Pep said you knew what was going to happen.

The question is why did you do this? You need to sort that out first and foremost. I realize you are tired and I am sure this is now weighing very heavily upon you.

But, Jen, you need to stop, think, evaluate. Do you really want to remain married to your H? If so what did you say to yourself that would make being in contact with OM again? I will trust your statements that nothing sexual happened, but you got something out of it or you would NOT have risked what you have. You really need to stop and think about this.

You are a good woman, you are a good person, what is happening within you that would make this OK? Please think about this OK?

I am sure there will be plenty here to talk with you tomorrow when you have time. But, please think about this, OH! I am glad you brought it here. My hope is that you will be glad you brought it here as well.

God Bless,

JL

From Penalty Kill

KiwiJ, I don't know your backstory; I'm picking up pieces here and there from various posters.

You said once, in a post directed at me, that it was a shame you didn't see my perspective, since as FWWs we ought to be able to understand each other.

And now I confess that I don't understand why you would go for a drink w/OM, but that is neither here nor there.

I wish you strength and courage.

I printed out your "conversation" with a BS and gave it to my WH to read.
I really like your posts and admire your honesty and clarity of thinking.
When I read this post, my heart sank because I though you had "made it" , done what I feel to be the impossible.
You can still do it though.
It is evident from your posts that you love your husband deeply. Love is not the issue. The issue is respect.
If you truly respected him you would not trade his peace of mind for a quick ego boost with a man that you KNOW is just a fantasy.
You DO know that OM is fantasy and your H is reality.
Please tell your H. Please go and think very carefully and if you have to face the fact that you have been selfish and snidey then face that and then heave yourself up to comfort your H.
I really, really, really, hope you can get back on track.
Your OM sounds like poison.
Kate

Jen - you know what to do. You know it.

Just do it.

WAT

Jen... I'm not part of the inner circle here at GQII, and I don't know if I've ever posted to you or not. But I will say that you are one of the posters who I paid lots of attention to when I first found this place. I needed an FWW to kind of guide me through early stages of recovery, and through your posts, that's exactly what you did. Thank you for being there for me.

My heart sank when I read about this. Like JL said, you need to understand why you did it. And of course, talk to your H.

This is one of those times that I am ecstatic that the FOM in my case lives several states and nearly 1000 miles away. This makes the chances of the kind of incidental contact you experienced virtually nil.

Be strong, Jen.

You were tempted....and failed, but:
Because OM ended the A, you now got another chance to choose be with/see, the OM...know you could have him again....and still choose your H. You, maybe, finally saw OM for the scum he really is. Maybe you can finally get the closure that you may have felt you lacked.

I hope you speak the truth to your H, from your heart.

It was still wrong to kid yourself into thinking you could remain 'indifferent' to OM...that there was nothing wrong with just chatting. I agree that you are smarter than that delusion. You do confirm that what Harley says is right.

No Contact, must be for life.

DO IT NOW JEN.

And never take another puff. You can't be a social smoker, ever.

GC

Was out last week/weekend taking care of a very sick Wookie.

I'm crying.

Jen....you gave me insight...you lifted me up....and I love you so very much.

I am so disappointed in you. But my disappointment level is finite, and it will end.

I still love you....and I'll lift YOU up now....but you MUST lead by example. You MUST do the right thing.

Rob is your dearest love, your own sweet man. He NEEDS you to do the right thing. YOU need you to do the right thing.

Again, I love you so much....and I am here for you.

- Kimmy

Kiwi, saying hello to the OM in the grocery store sounds
reasonable enough. I don't think you should be expected to leave your cart and run. So that can be over-looked as just being polite.

HOWEVER, meeting him for coffee and again for drinks most definitely crossed the line.

Afterall, you had a sexual affair with this former high school sweetheart for a year and a half.

YOU HAD TO KNOW THIS WAS WRONG AND MORE THAN A FRIENDLY CHAT.

I wonder if there were any touches, whatsoever???
You said in another thread, on May 2, that you are vulnerable to this OM. So the caution light was there yet you continued on.

How you could hurt your husband with this deceitfulness is hard to understand. (Or were you just not thinking of him or that he would never know?) Were you in a public place? Couldn't it get back to your husband that you were with OM?

Oh, Kiwi, you MUST tell your dear husband before he finds out from someone else.

Grace Elizabeth

OK, I will continie to point out the obvious:OK, I will continue to point out the obvious:

This was one of the conversation topics:

Jen asked OM why did you leave me? I was ready to leave my H for you?

OM replied: I was confused, not sure about my future. Now things are different, I see things more clearly; perhaps we deserve a chance to be happy.


This is the dilemma facing Jen. She is contemplating a second chance to walk into the sunset with OM. I cannot blame her; I am one of those that believe it must be awfully hard to return to the marriage after an affair.

The questions by JL make sense:


This is the deal. Jen remained married because OM ended the affair------the H was second choice.

Can this be saved? Not so sure. I suspect Jen would go with OM if he wants her with all the bells and whistles.

KiwiJ thought that she was "OM proof", she thought she could have the drink, coffee and feel like there was "nothing" there. She thought there was no harm, I am sure. She wanted to show OM that she was in love with her husband again, and that he was n ot going to put the "wool" over her eyes again. She realized too late that those were wrong moves on her part. And now she is terrified of telling her husband, because she does not want to lose her marriage,her husband.

She knows that her husband will be so hurt for what she did. And not only for what she did, for how much time has passed since it happened. She must have time to collect strenght and valor to tell him. She will do it, when she is ready.

I started a thread for her last weeek, when she still had not crossed the line with OM. If she had spilled the beans then,here in MB, nothing would had happened. But she kept it to herself. If something bothers a person, is because you are getting "red flags" "signals" that there is something wrong with the situation.

I am sure her motives were not because she wanted to re-ignite her affair with the OM. Her motives were more of her hurt pride,because he was the one that dumped her, and she wanted to show him, she was doing ok with her husband.

Her renewed contact has triggered a lot of BS here, including my husband. He is really angry and dissapointed in what she did. He is taking it personally <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I hope Jen can get thru this with her husband. He seems to really adore her and he might be able to get thru this again. I hope they do get thru this, because Jen does love her husband, and even if he was her second choice at the time of ending the affair, he was her first choice when they got married. And fell in love with Ron again, its obvious in all her posts.

I wish them the best and I am almost 100% sure that they will get thru this and NOTHING else will happen in the their future together.

Take care Jen

Myrta

Would this conversation be a lie or the truth?

“Sweetheart, I’ve got something important to tell you about our marriage. Before you let your mind race with worry let me just say that I am as committed to you and love you with all my heart as ever and what I am about to tell you is because of that commitment and my desire not to place our marriage in harms way. I hope that I am successful but it will be you who will be the ultimate judge of that. Nevertheless, I can’t believe how hard it has been to gather enough courage to talk to you right now, but here goes it…

Last week I ran into the OM. It appeared to be a chance meeting at the supermarket. At the time I was quit proud of myself that I felt NOTHING for him. There was no emotion other then a curiosity. Yet, I agreed to meet him for a cup of coffee. We discussed mundane issues of family and such and although I know it was wrong I felt in control and safe. I feel so foolish for thinking that this could be so simple. This cup of coffee lead to a second meeting at “fill-in-the-blank”. Nothing physical happened. In fact, nothing emotional happened. I shut it down and closed the door. By not immediately telling you after the first such encounter I realize how I had let myself down and now I am letting you down as well. I am so ashamed of myself. It is now clear to me that OM is not over me and will stop a little to peruse me. I further realize that I am the key to end this and I am here to tell you that what happened will lead NOWHERE. I want this guy out of our life and I will stop at nothing to make sure that happens. So I have gathered the courage to ask for your assistance and help and to once again to beg for your understanding. It is so sad and unexpected to find out that my actions from so long ago are still causing fallout in our life as husband and wife. I know that this is more then you bargained for but I have tried to convince myself with every possible argument to keep this information as a buried secret but I think that telling you is the only way, the best way for us.”

Good luck KiwiJ,

Mr. G

I KNOW that I am OM proof. I have no desire whatsoever to test it or prove it to myself.

And I have no need whatsoever to show the OM that I am in love with my H. again.



As he very well SHOULD be. Nothing good can come from something you have to hide from your spouse.



Motives are now moot point.

Hmmmm...this thread just shows again that no matter how recovered a FWS feels and no matter how many years has passed since D-Day, the FWS must ALWAYS stay on guard as far as the OP is concerned...even in cases where there is *just* accidental contact. I know what I'm talking about because I still work at the same company than OM and have very limited occasional accidental contact with him (he works at another department and building). There have also been times where OM deliberately contacted me and I haven't always handled it very effectively and this had caused tension between me and my H. Unfortunately I know I'm still vulnerable to OM in some ways and because of this I'll always stay "on guard" as long as I still work here. It's so easy to go back into the slippery slope if one doesn't stay carefull and keep the boundaries up all the time. Once boundaries has been crossed into inappropriate frienship/EA and/or PA with a person of the opposite sex, it's just not possible to be "just friends" or having "innocent chit chats" with that person ever again...

I'm sorry you have gone back on the slippery slope Jen, but I think you now realize just how dangerous ANY type of contact is no matter the recovery or time-frame... I think you've learned a valuable lesson from this and can use this in future to help and advice other people further and make them aware of the dangers. Also do the right thing Jen and inform your H.

Take care,
Suzet

Since being on this journey of recovery from an A certain things have hit me along the way. I think last summer I became very aware of what I call the "great divide" between the BS and the FWS. What I mean by that is that the consequences of infidelity are so different for the BS and the FWS. Both are effected, and yet the experiences are so different. The FWS will never understand the crushing trauma to the BS, and the BS will never understand the shame and guilt that comes to a remorseful FWS.

For me, what Kiwi did just illustrates this point. If she really knew what her A did to her H there would be no way she would EVER risk hurting him like this again. If my H were to ever meet OW for coffee and then meet her for a drink, heck even just chat with her in a grocery store, after the utter he** we have endured, the A wound would be ripped open again. OW was my rapist. H brought her into our lives and then allowed her to rape me. He actually participated in the rape. If he understands this he would understand that meeting with her would be meeting with my rapist.

Unfortunately maybe Kiwi's story really does just show that the FWS might never understand this. As much as my H tells me he is disgusted at the thought of OW, maybe meeting her again would erase the fact that she raped me. I would hope he would remember my pain, but maybe he would somehow forget, just like Kiwi. No harm done having some coffee.

Well this is the story that every BS hates to hear. I hate the thought that my H would not have the self-control to avoid OW. In fact, I hate the thought that he might even feel something for her after everything we've been through.

Kiwi, I hope you will just tell your H and get it over with. I hope you will figure out why you walked down this path after all the work you've done. I'm not condemning you, just reflecting on how your story effected this BS.

kiwi,

i've tried to read most of this post and i still don't know if you told rob?!?!?!?

this is one of my biggest fears that liny will even "talk" to the ow. but some how this is my issues of insecurity and mistrust (well, earned, mind you) but i would also have to look at the "signs" that would allow the "talk" in the 1st place . . . have you? what's going on with you/rob/dd and life that you didn't see?

hang in there. you will always have mine and liny's support.

we love ya {{{{{jen and rob}}}}}

much love, lynn

LOL

Another question:

Assuming Jen wants to stay married.

Is Jen now back in square one? Does she need to re-start withdrawal all over again?

BTW, Myrta made a good point. But, it would be like a scorned woman showing an ex-lover that she has moved on. If there is a need for that----then it means she still has feelings for OM. As I said----most FWWs will always have warm feelings for OM.

No Stanley...Jen is not back to square one, but her husband probably will be. He will be very very hurt by her actions and he will question his manhood again. She is in a very difficult situation, much more than back to the original DD. Because like all of you said, she is supposed to be out of the "fog"

Yes, she was scorned and she was hurt very much by OM, and she needed it to show him, she had moved on. She thought that OM wanted her for good now, and she was going to have the pleasure of saying "NO" to him. But I bet the words that came out of OM's mouth were not the ones she was waiting to hear. He wanted what they had before, a sordid affair. Not a marriage and happily ever after story book.
He hurt her once again, and it was all her doing this time, because she willingly went to those rendevouz with him, with very open eyes, two years after.

I don't think this situation is at all funny 10Swords<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Jen, there had to be a reason that you made the conscious decision to meet with OM. Please tell us what your motives were. As a BS, I would really like to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Deb

Hey Pond Scum, anything new??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

KIWI Said

Well now you have, and the general consensus is to tell Rob, and I'm pretty sure everybody is waiting to hear that you have, so what are you going to do about that????

Now that you have all of us ready to hold you accountable, are you ready to hold yourself accountable???


I love you, but man are you an IDIOT!!! You are better than this, I don't mean morally, although that applies also, look at yourself, you deserve goodness, you deserve true love, you deserve Rob's love, stop with this nonsense of the OM.

YOU ARE WORTH MORE!!

Make better choices because you are worthy. You do not need this man to feel good, look within, you are AWESOME!!

B suggests you move, I hear MI is nice this time of year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your friend, Jelly

This is the saddest, most frightening, personally hurtful thread I've read in a long, long time. (Not because of anyone's responses, because of the topic)

Jen, I haven't talked to you personally... and though we've shared a thread or two, I can't say that I know you well. But I really thought you were recovered.

I have to say to those of you who think there's no harm in just saying hello... <shaking head>... THERE'S HARM.

I'm not even in the marriage where the infidelity took place and it's been seven years since my affair. I don't live near the OM anymore, but if I were in town and went shopping and ran into him in an aisle, I promise you, I would LEAVE THE STORE. I would leave the cart and RUN.

I NEVER want to lay eyes on the man again. Ever. Not even for one second. He and I nearly RUINED my life... why would I even want to give him TWO SECONDS of my ***precious time***???

JustJ wrote a beautiful response, Jen. And your friends obviously love and support you. Even the harsh responses aren't as harsh as I've seen before... people obviously care about you.

As for me, I'm horrified. I think it's because I've had to fight so hard to shake this moniker of "cheater" off of my shoulder... I say I will NEVER cheat again, and I KNOW I will never cheat again. I swear to god, I'll kill myself first. That's *not* dramatics. I would rather be dead than put myself in that position again. I can't imagine why someone who knows what it feels like would put themselves back into harms way. You really need to figure that one out... perhaps too late for your marriage, but not too late to save yourself.

I feel worst for your H. It's like he gave you this gift: renewed love and forgiveness, and you tossed it in the trash.

ETA: Before my affair, in 1999... back in 1987... my (then) H cheated on me several times. The final time that year hurt the worst because I had gone to extrodinary lengths to preserve our marriage and rebuild, including moving 100 miles away from the places where these women were. He lied to me (of course) and told me I was crazy for not trusting him. It was worse than the first infidelity, even though less (physically) happened... because he KNEW what he was doing and did it anyway. This is what bothers me most about this situation.

beauty, I will not speak for Jen, but give you my perspective.

The WS lacks a certain confidence a certain worth, they seek it out from other people. If they do not fix this about themselves, than I feel they will fall back into the WS role, always searching for recognition, acknowledgement, significance from others.

Ok Jen,

No more hiding out. What is up? All is not lost but some very serious thinking needs to take place now. None of us have given up on you and I don't think you should give up either.

God Bless,

JL

Myrta,

About this quote:
Are you saying that Jen is hurt because the OM rejected her? Am I reading this right?

Did Jen tell you this? I don't see this in the thread, but maybe I missed it.

And Stan-ley,

Re:
I disagree strongly. I have met VERY FEW WS's of either gender who were secretly harboring feelings for their OP. Most around MB, once recovered, have NO feelings left. Maybe I'm a Polyanna or live in some MB-induced-Eutopia-Land... but I believe that most WS never want to be near the OP, or ANY OP-wanna-be (even an inkling of flirtation scares the he11 out of me and many WS's I've spoken with).

Thanks kyellow,

I hope Jen will tell us in her own words what her truly honest reason was. If what you say is true, how do we as BS's work on that part. I certanly do not want my H to ever want to see OW again. Is this something that was lacking in our M or something that I did not provide to my H, or is it something within WS's that they have to fix for themselves?

I have to admit, this topic is an eye opener for BS's and WS's alike. I would like to learn something from it, so that I will never have to go through what Rob is going to go through.

Jen, please tell Rob, If it were me, I would want H to tell me. It is going to take some radical honesty on your part and some major soul searching.

Today is my 2-year D-day anniversary.

Reading this thread is like driving past a flaming car wreck; you can't stop looking in horrified fascination.

This is what I have feared for the past 2 years - that my FWH would somehow cross paths with FOW and, for whatever reason, to prove to himself that he's"over" her, to get "closure", "for old time's sake", or for any other stupid reason have coffe, a beer, lunch, or some other inappropriate C with her.

And, here it is, in living color.

K, I can only imagine how you dread telling your H, if you have not already done so. Please consider how much worse it's going to get with each passing day. It's like an infection, festering away. you need to lance it open, draining the poison out.

Secrets are the weapon of the predator. Don't make things worse. Show the OM how unimportant he is. Share this with the H who really loves you.

I agree, NBII. Just the thought of being anywhere near OM makes me cringe and feel literally sick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I find the thought of being in his presence revolting.

I'm very sad at this turn of events. Very sad. But I don't feel any kinship as a fellow FWW...no "oh, that could've been me" stuff. None at all.

I honestly hope that Rob can and will continue the marriage. I really do. But, no one could blame him if he doesn't. It's horrible when there just isn't any good answer. No matter what decision is made, by Kiwi or Rob, there is going to be pain and torment. Very sad that it has to start over.

Lori

This is my fear.

My husband says that after what we have been thru he could never do it again. He says he could not forgive me if I had an affair because of the ****** I know that it would create.

I just do not understand how it could happen again.

I will be praying for you and you betrayed husband.

et al,

""I am so disappointed in you.""

Why don't we all say "We are disappointed FOR you" or "We are disappointed WITH you"

We all are human.

k

Jen,

I am hoping the reason you haved not replied to us yet, is because you are having a radically honest conversation with Rob right now. I am crossing my fingers that I am right.

P.S. What is the meaning behind your thread name?????

Jen is sleeping, that is why she hasn't been replying, she will awake soon and she will magically be a day ahead of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Because...I am disappointed in her choices and her actions. I'm not disappointed FOR anything other than that.

I love Jen....she'd better farging know that after all we've been through together....and if ANYONE knows that WE are all human, it's me. I'd give a kidney to her, cut off my left big toe, and maybe sell one of the kids (MAYBE....kidding.....sortof....okay.........I'M KIDDING) if she needed kidneys, toes or money.

But "we are all human" doesn't cut it in this instance...and you know what? She'd be the FIRST one to tell ME so if the roles were reversed (maybe the 2nd if Faith got to me because of the time dif.).

This person HURT Jen...and is HURTING HER AGAIN...and she ALLOWED IT....and we love her too, too much to allow her to allow this codswallop in her life again.

Period.

Exclamation point!

- Kimmy

What this and other responses seem to be suggesting (my opinion ONLY) is that Jen's feelings being hurt are somehow more important than the fact that she BETRAYED her H AGAIN. That is turned out to be for a man who hurt her is sad, yes, but her pain does not shadow her H's.

I'm sorry... I just feel so dammed sorry for her H. I know she's the one writing, and she's your friend... but what about her H?

still lovin ya jen....and also waiting patiently for the "why?"....and ya KNOW how patient i am??????

Hi Jen,

My prayers and positive pagan thoughts are coming your way in full force.

We have all stumbled in our recoveries; BS, WS all of us. Please understand and believe that all of your MB friends are in your corner, supporting you and Rob.

I've got spuds any way you want them on the way to you. I will even toss in some nice fluffy (and soft) hash browns for you guys if you need some amunition for a food fight.

You have been and still are and always will be the #1 in my book. I am convinced that EL and I would have parted ways if it was not for your words of encouragment to both of us.

I pray that you and your husband will have the tools you need placed at hand to get through this rough time.

Remember that we are with you.

I just don't think its very nice to start another thread
on the recovery board about her. Why cant they say it over here?






.

You are exactly right.

I am hurt and angry and sad....and it will never compare to what KJ's dh will feel....

But she needs to tell him. Because the knife gets bigger with each passing moment.

- Kimmy

Well, no word from KiwiJ. I hope that Rob will come back and post. I think we could help support him through this.

Jen -

I just ran across this thread. I am so sorry to hear this. I will add you and your husband to my prayers.

Jen,

A little bird told me about your thread...

I know you can't process all the excellent posts on this thread yet but I just want to say that you are a kind person, so for you to do a hurtful thing like this says only one thing, at least to me...

You've got some more inner work to do. When we don't get the lesson last time around, it comes right back around again to tell us what we didn't hear before.

Because you are not a hurtful person, and certainly not stupid there is clearly something going on inside of you that needs to be addressed. Perhaps poor self-esteem, a need for drama, a fear of things going too well...I don't know but deep inside you, you do.

And I bet Rob who knows and loves you best, might be able to help you pinpoint why you allowed this to happen...and from there what you can do to heal this part of you, which has not yet been healed (fixed, grown whatever).

They say God (or your soul, or you psyche if you are not religious) will knock on your hood until you hear...and do something about it.

Rob knows and loves you best (aside from the fact that he has a right to know this) and he should be the one you are talking to, as well as your friends...but him first.

This doesn't mean you are a bad person Jen, just that you are a person with a little work to do yet. Just like the rest of us, learning lessons doesn't I believe ever end but sometimes it just takes a return trip to really listen and do what you need to do, so it doesn't ever come back 'round again...you can get a different one next time.

Get clear on why this happened Jen, because that is where the answer is, and possibly where Rob can find hope again.

{{{{{{{Weaver}}}}}} and everyone else who has managed to hate the sin but not the sinner. Weaver, your post rang with truth.

Some of you are very wonderful people. I can only thank you for still caring for me and Rob.

I know no one will believe me but I was completely over the OM. I was SO RELIEVED to be over the OM. I was so relieved to be happy with Rob.

If I had told Rob that I had seen the OM in the grocery store everything would have been fine. I couldn't believe that I felt nothing for the OM. It felt so good to feel nothing.

When I knew he was actively pursuing me, that's when my head started to get turned.

I know the one thing everyone is having the most trouble with is "how could I do this to Rob again."

I am wondering that myself and wondering what it means for the success or continuation of my marriage. That has nothing to do with the OM and everything to do with how I really feel, really deep down about Rob if I am totally honest.

have you talked 2 Rob?

Not yet, but I think the swollen eyes and dark rings under my eyes, and not being able to sleep will make it impossible not to.

There is no way I will keep this from him.

I am TERRIFIED to tell him, absolutely TERRIFIED of the consequences for him, my family and me.

And before anyone jumps on me, YES I KNOW I WAS THE CAUSE OF THIS.

Which is what, hon?

Jen,

You said
I agree and it is also about how you see yourself and what YOU think you need out of life.

There is plenty to think about Jen, so hang in there and do some very very serious thinking. You do owe Rob honesty in this matter.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Have you considered seeing a counselor?

Which is that I am so bound to him that we are almost one person and I have lost track of how I really, really feel.

JL, I think it's time to see my wonderful counsellor, Peggy, again.

My thread title says it all you know.

I really didn't think I would be facing any of this again in my lifetime.

Except....... that deep down I still have reservations about giving myself totally to Rob.

A very dear MB friend suggested that was because I have been and always will be waiting for the OM.

Jen -

Glad to see you again. If you feel you have always been and always will be waiting for the OM, then the honorable thing to do is to tell Rob.

Actually, I think it is the FANTASY of the OM. He is obviously a low-life, cheating on his wife, and chasing a married woman.

I think it's the fantasy of someone pining over you...that he still wants you and chases you - it sends tingles up and down you...

Like Believer said - it's not reality hun...and you go to him, one day he is chasing someone else...and you are on the end of it........

Jen, you're thinking in circles. Please, for the sake of all of us who are rooting for you...

For the sake of Rob who loves you...

and mostly for the sake of your integrity,

Would you please tell your husband the truth?

Don't get caught up in all the why's and analysis and what the heck is going on in my head stuff.

Let's get practical, here.

Speak the truth about the events as they occurred.

Rob's reaction will change the nightmare of circular thinking you're doing right now, though you will also have to work hard to change it for yourself.

This, though:

Which is that I am so bound to him that we are almost one person and I have lost track of how I really, really feel.

Sounds like the first tendrils of fog.

and this Except....... that deep down I still have reservations about giving myself totally to Rob.


Sounds like something no one ever completely does. The goal is not to lose your individuality in your marriage, you know. It's to become stronger and more centered.

So either you're foggy or you're pretty darned confused and exhausted right now. Either way, how 'bout shining some of that good old bright light on the sitch, 'cause it's going to grow in the dark.

Yup, you heard me. EXPOSE YOURSELF.

There's something I've never before said on MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jen (can I call you that?)

Are saying that your recovery was a false one? Are you having second thoughts about remaining with Rob? Did OM turn your head so far that you are in the fog again? OM is not going to ride away into the sunset with you, and then there is Rob. He is the one that saved you and loved you. He deserves better. He deserves the truth.

Jen,

I think you realize that you MUST tell Rob, and I pray that you will. Even if you didn't have circles under your eyes, sooner or later, Rob will know the truth. There is no way that you can keep this a secret, because your relationship will change and Rob will figure out that you are hiding something. If he's anything like me or most other BS, he'll figure out that you've been in contact wih OM.

Don't put it off any longer, Jen. Tell Rob. He has a RIGHT to decide what to do with the rest of his life. My biggest resentment is that my H basically stole years from my life by his cheating and lying about it.

Yes, Rob may, or may not, decide to divorce you, but that is his RIGHT to decide.

And, Jen, I do feel badly that you deceived yourself into thinking that you could have a friendship with OM. And, yes, it is akin to being friendly to the rapist who violated your spouse.

I will be praying for you, Jen...that you and your H can overcome this TOGETHER.

Oh, and you and your H should expose OM to his wife. I'm quite sure that you probably aren't the only fish he's casting a line out to, and his wife needs the information so she can protect herself.

HUH? Who? What do you mean?

Kiwi are you the one that wrote that back and forth thread with Plank about being a recovered WW and him portraying the betrayed H? Maybe you should read it again!

You say never in a million billion years.
That is just so UNTRUE...Instead it took you minutes to decide to talk with him. (Then to meet for coffee and again for drinks.) Kiwi Kiwi What are you doing?
You are breaking your husband's heart. AGAIN!

Pep, instead of talking bitterly about Kiwi on the Just So thread in Recovery, why not say it to her face right here on this thread? It seems that Kiwi should be included in the discussion that is about her and her marriage. She doesn't even know that thread exists.

Why is everyone putting so much emphasis on jen and what other MB members are saying? This is a decision that jen made. She is not a victim but a willing player with OM. I do not get it. It is one thing to be supportive but it is another to ignore reality. I feel sorry for her BH who STILL does not know about this latest transgression.

Maybe there was a lesson you stepped over, Jen...

"I am wondering that myself and wondering what it means for the success or continuation of my marriage. That has nothing to do with the OM and everything to do with how I really feel, really deep down about Rob if I am totally honest."

There are three parts of a marriage...yours, Rob's and the marriage.

When you did not feel anything in the grocery store, that was your part for you...nothing to resist.

When you saw him persist, and you felt your part slip, then you ignore and report for the marriage...honoring your marriage, even if you don't feel like honoring yourself or Rob.

Important part of faithfulness.

In your corner...tell Rob right now...wake him up, go to his work...do it however you can, but honor your marriage...that is who you are...and by doing so, you will honor yourself.

LA

I agree totally with ToddAC. This is KiwiJ's life and they are her choices to make. Can't you all see that you are being "controlling"? Stop trying to "control" KiwiJ and let her make her choices. If anyone knows the consequences, she does.

Stanley,

I missed the title of that book. Can you please post it so I can buy it and read it?

I would rather divorce my WW right now than risk going through all this yet again. ToddAC has been trying to tell me there is no such thing as a FWW.

I am so sorry I let what KiwiJ does affect me. That is not her responsibility. Her life - her choice. Leave her alone.

Traic...we really got to work on your "controlling" concept...LOL...Jen chooses. She's choosing right now...not to tell. She chose not to tell. We can't make her...we are urging her, out of love, no threats...what? We won't invite her to our birthday parties?

We admire her...accept...love and cherish all she is...and she brings it to MB...doesn't negate all her advice, all her beliefs...doesn't take back all the good she has done by being in this world and here on MB...

She influenced others and allows or disallows others' influence. Her choice.

Doesn't mean we are controlling by exerting our influence so that it travels around the world to land at her door like a gift-wrapped present, when opened, sounds like a shrieker (Harry Potter)...

Still love in the sending...support being scrounged around inside of us...and lessons to be learned.

LA

Stanley,

The book or reading material you referred to as "TOW" is what traicionado is referring to. Your posts reflect my sentiments precisely and I am most interested in reading the book you referenced.

Yes Stanley, The ISBN would be even better. Thanks in advance.

I'm with LA. Jen has given good advice and I for one appreciate it. I think a lot of us can advise others, but have sometimes have problems applying it in our own lives.

Prayers to Jen and ST.

Jen, I don't know you that well, as I said in my first post, so I certainly don't hate you. I do hope you can repair your marriage. And I feel deeply sorry for your H.

I seriously am having trouble reconcilling the Jen of this thread with the Jen that wrote so many wonderful threads.

JustJ and JL especially are giving you compassionate and realistic advice and are inviting participation from you. I hope you will reach back to them.

I wish you healing and peace, Jen... and a whole heap of healing for your H... I won't offer anymore advice because I really don't know you (though I will echo the chorus that says to tell your H - and pronto). Your thread triggered me, as it did others, and I let my emotion take over. I apologize for that.

Jen, I am not actually directing this at you, but rather at the poster/s who felt/feel that the first encounter in the grocery store was not so bad; that it didn't become bad until later. However, I don't want to say this behind your back, either.

For any who didn't see it on my thread, this exact scenario occurred a few weeks ago between my FWH and the OW. He saw her in the grocery store, fortunately before she saw him. He left his cart where it stood and walked out of the store.

I would have been devastated if he had only told her 'hi' in passing. I don't know if our marriage would survive a chat. The only possible IF to that one would be if he told me immediately, then I would at least consider it.

WALK AWAY!!!!! What is so hard about that? Which means more to you, your dignity, your little cart of groceries, or your marriage?

Just leave the cart and exit the store. It is not ok to say hi. It is not ok to smile at them. It is not ok to speak to them or look at them. LEAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do not fall into the trap of thinking that a little contact is not too bad, as long as it was by accident and didn't last very long.

I am totally serious here. Nothing should be more important than maintaining NC. Are you in the laundromat? Don't stop to get your clothes; send someone back for them. Which do you value more, a few clothes, or the spouse who loves you?

Are you in a restaurant and your food hasn't arrived yet? Leave the money on the table and walk out. Food and money can be easily replaced. Love and trust cannot.

At church? Get up and go. At the theater? Leave before the movie is over. In line at the bank on Friday afternoon and it's taken you two hours to get to the front? Give up your place. At the barber? Run out with the haircut half done, tossing a twenty over your shoulder.

NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING is more important than protecting your marriage. This idea that the first meeting in this instance was ok, is just plain wrong. Deadly wrong.

Thank you for letting me borrow the podium for a moment, Jen.

Traicionado and Todd:



I read TOW to get a better understanding about what a married OW really feels for the OM. You can get that here, but the text will almost always be colored to reflect the philosophy of MB.

Not only that---------in many occasions one will find FWWs saying out loud that OM is lower than whale feces in the bottom of the ocean, but still pine in secret for the good old days of the affair.

Even the most repentant FWW will acknowledge to herself that some aspects of the affair were a lot of fun. OTOH, to hear FWWs in MB talk about their FOMs is like having someone describe a vacation in Siberia.


This is the issue at hand:

There are a few possible scenarios for a WW to return to the marriage-------------this is the one that worries me:

OM may actually be the better suited for her, but OM ends the affair and she must return to the BH. In this instance the marriage may be OK, but in the end it mostly has to do with trying to make the best with the hand they were dealt. The so-called second choice syndrome where both spouses accept a less than perfect marriage for the good of the family, children. pension plans, mortgage, common property, ect.



This is what KiwiJ said:


This is a classic Freudian mechanism of defense. The classic analogy is that of a starving person trying to knock down fruit from a tall tree. After several hours of lack of success the hungry person then says out loud: ”Well, I am not really that hungry”. Jen was not interested in OM because OM was not available to her. However, when OM became available her position changed. That is why I read TOW. I needed to see what was inside the head of a typical MOW.


And as the story goes---------the starving man cannot say to himself he is not hungry forever. At some point the mechanism of defense fails.



I totally agree.






Jen------you need to be true to yourself and with Rob.



I have read about the lives of hundreds of MOWs. Many remain married to BH, but deep inside they still long for OM. You will not see a single OW admit to that here, but I know it happens.

NSYN,

Oh, but that was NOT the first encounter.

The first as I recall was more than a year ago..a chance encounter..and KJ was just so pleasantly suprised to have been able to carry on mild social conversation and feel nothing.

She did tell her H about that one [I can't recall if it was right away or not] and yes he was hurt that she had sustained contact..

I believe that it was the encounter WAAAAY back when..that paved the road for this one with all it's chaos because..there was no particular backlash in an immediate an obvious way.



I doubt very ..VERY much that KJ went from zero to sixty in the course of a few seconds..what I think..is that from THAT time to THIS moment the possibilities have been bubbling away.

She was convinvced it was a good thing. A real step forward. An indication of just how recoverred she was.

A door that had been shut..was from that point on, open.

OM stepped right through clean as a whistle. She went from being wholly committed..to having an actual DATE with OM..and her H *still* doesn't know. Let's all run around in a big circle.

So could any OP..which is why NC..REAL NC is crucial and permanent.

I have seen several instances in which FWSs have bucked against the limitations of permanent NC [not necessarily because they longed for contact..but because they didn't want to acknowledge a lifelong weakness or area of personal failure]..and every single one of them has fallen right onto their face as a result of not maintaining that boundary.

This does not mean that every contribution KJ has made was a lie..it does not affect the merit of her thoughts in any way for me..it is just one more sad example that these dragons do still have teeth, and we regard them as domesticated at our own peril.

No life guard on duty.

So what is TOW?

Neak and I talked about this today while she was chatting with me to keep me awake on my long drive home from work. (What a nice daughter, not to want to collect her share of my life insurance policies too soon!) I didn't understand her position at first; I think I understand it better now, but I'm still kind of of the opinion that if I were in her shoes (having never been in her shoes, you understand, so I can be free with an untested hypothesis) I would expect to find it self-affirming if my husband, brought face to face with his OW, without planning and without warning, would say to her (sternly and without any warmth--but maybe with a little heat!), when she tried to speak to him, "You were told to never speak to me again. Leave me alone." And then turned and walked out of the stoor, leaving her standing there with her teeth in her mouth, and her pride in shreds.

But maybe that's just me. Apparently Vindictive is my middle name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

t&l

TOW is a forum for other women- www dot gloryb dot com pink board

so what?

her H doesn't even know his wife has had a date with OM !

what difference could my little temper tantrum possibly make?

What I do or do not do has no bearing on this issue ... I needed a safe place to vent my feelings

The thread on Recovery began on a different subject ~prior~ to Jen's disclosure ... and then it morphed into ME discussing MY anger ... so as not to polute this thread... leave me alone!

Pep

The Other Woman

Noodle, I did not know of the other encounter. You are probably right that it contributed to the later downfalls.

It still galls me no end to see anyone say that a quick chat was not too bad, since they didn't intend to meet there. I really don't care whether either one intended it or not. The other FWS's will disregard this lesson to their peril. There is no safe contact. Ever.

This sad story just brings that home in a very personal way. (Not that I needed convincing.)

Giving someone the cut direct is not a chat. Or were you not talking to me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

(Just to be clear, it was not Jen who said that a little chat was not bad.)

Mom, I think I would accept that scenario as one compatible with continuing my marriage, but the role of seeming cowardice is so much safer. Run away! Run away!

TOW

T~THE
O~Other
W~Woman

However, I would advise you to stay away from there and
stick to this Marriage Builders forum. I checked it once
and it is gaggy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

NSYN,

The FWS does not see the OP the same way the BS does and never will.

Yes, having a quick friendly chat with OW..would indeed be just like having a quick and friendly chat with my rapist..not in truth..but with regard to MY feelings

and yet

It ISN'T the same with the former lovers. That IS NOT the relationship that they had together. So from their perspective..

You see what I'm saying?

Lack of empathy for the BS is key..why the BS is [and must be] in a place of such diminishment that they ARE NOT taken into GRAVE consideration when making the choice to engage or bail.

Stan-ley,

TOW is mostly for CURRENT OW... MB is for FORMER OW... which is most likely WHY you won't see FWW's say they long, pine or even remotely like the OM.

I don't care about the OM. I don't care if he's happy, sad, what he says about me, what he thinks about the universe, or anything else. I have friends who work with him, and they know to never even pass a hello from him to me, or to tell me anything about him. As in: NOTHING. I don't want to know.

Being here (on MB) brings these feelings up again and again... there ARE some (hopefully many) FWS's around here who despise, or at least are *truly* indifferent to the OM. I swear on a stack of Bibles (I mean this sincerely) that I harbor NO warm fuzzies and get sick to my stomach when he does enter my mind (which is luckily very occassional - like when a song plays that was popular at the time of the affair). My affair began and ended in a five month period in early 1999. It's been years. I'm not going back. Not EVER. There is such thing as a WS who wants nothing to do with the affair partner.

Hi Stanley,

Thanks for posting this.

You brought clarity to what I had already suspected. My WW pines for the OM so much it is pathetic.

He is her "soulmate". Her one and only. She worships the ground he walks on. I overheard a phone conversation she had with him one morning and you would have thought she was talking to a movie star. She gushed all over the living room.

Never mind that he is a serial predator according to his XW. He has had too many affairs for her to count, each victim convinced she was his soulmate.

Most WW will always have fond memories of, and boundless love for, the OM. I have always believed that reality serves a useful purpose. When one pretends it doesn't exist, that tall fruit tree can fall on their house.

Why are we messaging back and forth when we could talk on the phone? I guess because the phone is in the other room and I don't want to go and get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm not advocating deliberate contact, I hope you understand. But if Gargamel saw AJ in the store, and before she could speak to him, saw him abandon his cart of food and flee the premises, is it possible that she would perceive this as an indicator that the remaining attraction of his feelings for her were so strong he didn't even dare the briefest exposure of his iron filings to her womanly maggot? I mean, magnet? Where if he bumped into her coming around a corner, and gave her a cold, very brief, unmistakable rejection, followed by a powerful, controlled manly exit, I think it would be hard for a woman, even a foggy one, to put much of a good or flattering or validating spin on THAT one. That's what I think. I think.

t&l

thndrnlitng. What you just said, that is what I think also.
I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you're right.

Run away! Run away! But do it in a manly fashion!

Maggots. Ew.

Gargamel, with Neak's husband's assistance, of course, put my daughter through H-E-DoubleQ on earth, and there's still radioactive fallout in Nirvana from it. Why shouldn't the OW get a good smackdown, if accidental contact is unavoidable? I also think it would make the FWS feel stronger and more powerful, and maybe, too, in some way perceive that they had made a very small atonement for their previous betrayal. Do I think that? I think so.

t&l

OK, OK. Run away. But be rude first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

There is no back stabbing going on with Peps thread. Let's get that straight. What is going on is that the people in Recovery were hard hit with Jen's betrayel with the OM. They are expressing their views and feelings about it on their own forum. They have every right to discuss this topic as it hits home to all of us who are recovering. It is scary stuff and in our eyes incredibly wrong and goes against all that MB strives to incorporate.

This thread has opened alot of wounds for recovering BS's and we cannot condemn Pep or anyone else's opinions on this matter. Therefore, I believe that I am in the wrong forum as I am recovering with my H and feel that it would be much healthier to my recovery if I move forward to the right forum.

Steping away from this now. Good Luck Jen and Rob

thn:

It's like an alcoholic taking a sip to prove he isn't an alcoholic. You know that can't happen.

It proves nothing to anyone... and in fact, brings harm. Even if it never goes further because...

Play too close to the fire... get burned. It is the law of nature. As adults, we don't need to learn the lesson again, do we?

An atonement, in my opinion, would be something along the lines of moving away from the affair partner, even if it's out of state... leaving a church or job where there might be accidental contact... sending and sticking to a true NC letter...

Also, and I can speak from experience, when my (now ex-)H ran into one of the OW's after the affair... he *said* he didn't talk to her and brought home a note she left on his windshield... she, by the way, followed him to the gas station to ask him if he received the note. He told me this, too, but only after I kept on him because I KNEW there was more to the story. He got in her car to tell her he couldn't even talk to her and she drove away with him in the car... and said she'd bring him back when he let her have her say. So they had a smoke together while she cried and cussed at him. I have no idea what he said... and it doesn't matter anymore.

None of this made me feel less worried about what really happened in that car. NC has to mean NC... or it means nothing at all.

Well this is quite interesting.

And it has put me in the mood to stretch some boundaries. As I am not known for mincing words, I am about to make a few inflammatory statements.

Please do not jump down my throat, as I am attempting to illustrate only. And I am going to throw out some "common" stereotypes for those purposes, they are not necessarily reflective of my personal beliefs.

Let's suppose KiwiJ was raised in a bigoted white euro home where the african american race was not tolerated, and considered "lesser" as in the typical culture that Ms. Parks and Dr. King fought so hard to eradicate. And let's suppose that KiwiJ were in fact actually attracted to males of this "lesser" race and made the choice to hide her feelings for years, only to finally realize that it was more important to be true to herself at age 50 and come out and say to her family that she could not hide those feelings any longer, engendering the wrath of her black-hating mother and father and probably ostracizing herself from her family for the rest of her life. I would ask you, how would you feel about her decision? To a one, I would expect that you would find this choice to be "right" and "noble." Nobody (well, actually few) condone (at least in public) this kind of racism these days.

Change gears.

KiwiJ is a lesbian. And has fought that down for years out of fear for ostracization and censure from her family. And at age 50, she leaves her husband, breaks up her family, to eschew her true feelings. How about now? Would EVERYONE still condone that as "right" and "noble"? I doubt the "Amen, NCWalkers" would be as numerous, given today's climate. But is the decision any DIFFERENT?

Change gears again.

KiwiJ never REALLY loved her husband. But continued in the marriage out of duty. And fear of ostracizing herself from her family. And now at 50 (or so) decides her heart really belonged with the OM. Is THAT any different? Sounds like the same pattern to me. How many will give me an "Amen, NCWalker" on THAT one?

So be VERY careful if you are sitting in judgement of KiwiJ right now. Be VERY careful what you label "right" and "wrong."

So let's look a few scenarios....

Scenario #1: Kiwi is in this marriage out of a sense of duty. It is a "good" thing, in that it fits the societal model of a husband, wife, and a few kids, reasonably contributing to society and a somewhat reasonable image of Ward and June, or your family of choice from the television. But it really was a mistake. And Kiwi has been sucking up this lie all along to "appease the powers that be." And reaches the decision NOW in the autumn of her life that that is what happened. And she now chooses the OM. If she is willing to face the legal consequences of breaking the marriage, if she is willing to face the ramifications of what her children will think, if she is willing to OWN the choice of choosing the OM, who are we to say that is WRONG??? The only thing I would be willing to say is that it is shameful that it took her so long to come to that conclusion for her husband's sake. Shameful and said, especially if he was led to believe that it was OK. But maybe HE would be happier too. Maybe HE would find someone else who REALLY appreciated him, instead of stayed married out of duty. Who are we to say that could not happen? Or will not?

What if it kills her husband? Last I heard, there is pretty much general consensus accross ALL religions that we are basically in charge of OURSELVES. The "devil made me do it" isn't really a reasonable defense for ones actions. We (hopefully) act in accordance to what we believe and know to be right. And many times (unfortunately) act according to what we want, of feel we need. So I would not say that she should continue this lie, if a lie it is, in this Scenario #1 that I have posed out of the sake of protecting her husband. And "fake" feelings for her husband out of a sense of duty. IF AND ONLY IF she is willing to accept the consequences of the choice either way.

So if she CHOOSES the OM at this point, is that really wrong? There are some marriages that "should not have been." Face facts. How is ANY of our judgement when we have just learned that you don't wipe your nose on your sleeve?

It would be UNFORTUNATE if Kiwi were lying to herself all this time for her, her kids, and for her husband. But if the truth comes out NOW, why is it WRONG?

Scenario #2: Kiwi really DOES love Rob, made a big mistake, and was a little too cocky about what she could handle r.e. the OM. We have now entered the realm of bad judgement. If this is the case, she SHOULD have known better. But again, be VERY careful about what we burn her at the stake for. The sad truth is no matter what we feel from a MORAL point of view as wrong, there will be plenty of people who feel it is OK. As a society, we have to coexisist with a set of rules so that we can be reasonably interact with some certainty that things will be consistent. So we get together and make laws. And EVERYTHING ELSE matters NOT to what we can and cannot DO. Or anyone else for that matter. Laws dictate through common acceptance what we and those in our community can and cannot do. Morals ONLY determine what we ourselves (and NO OTHERS) WILL and WILL NOT do. There is a BIG difference. So if KiwiJ hasn't broken any laws, she is STILL OK and we should be reticent before we cast any stones.

The dust has not settled yet. So if scenario 2 is the case, we have a difficult choice. There is a REAL RISK that her husband will have had enough, and end the marriage at this point. In the face of Kiwi learning a valuable lesson... that she REALLY COULDN'T handle it. Before we say "she should have know better" and judge, I would pose that if the message were THAT CLEAR, this would never happen again. But in reality, I would bet quite a bit of money that some other WS who also knows these materials will find themselves in the SAME situation - a relapse with an OP. If the message was THAT clear, why would it happen again and again? Sorry folks, as Mark Twain says, "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other." At this point, Kiwi is at worst, only foolish. Frankly, in either scenario. In this one for courting danger as she did, in #1 for continuing a farce and calling it a marriage. But I am not willing to extend a "bad" label to her at this point.

And this is a big thing. For the OM could indeed be "playing" her. A significant risk. I, personally, would put money on that. Because if he felt the same way, where has he been all this time? There is the possibility that he, too, has come to the same conclusion, he and Kiwi were always right for each other. But that is a COMPLETE unknown to all of us. We only "know" what Kiwi allows us, consciously or unconsciously, to know. And it would not be a certainty for her, either. The best we can do, is hazard an educated guess.

None of us REALLY know what is going on inside her head right now.

There are only two things that I do know, and only two things for which I personally would pass judgement.

The first is, no matter what her choice, she needs to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN when she makes it. Because either way, she is stealing from too many people. The OM, her husband, her kids, even us. We are comitting parts of our lives in this current development. Effort, energy, chi, whatever you want to call it, those of us who support her, and even her detractors. But unlike us, her husband and kids have a bigger stake in it, more reason to NOT walk away. Each of us can just ignore her posts, if we so choose, but THEY have a big stake in Kiwi making certain. It is akin to having to pick which one of two friends gets to die, and which gets to live. For if she chooses not, BOTH will rot away. I will not bust her chops for her choice, but I will if she waffles on it. That is akin to torturing her poor husband. Which leads to the second thing...

That her husband ALSO be given the same choice. For those that would say he would be better off not knowing, I would say since when does "less hurt" mean "better off?" The ONLY circumstance I would consider it wrong for him to know is if they had an agreement where he said "If it happens again, I would rather not know about it." Better for her? Perhaps easier, in the short term. But if she continues a lie, or hides the truth and he finds out through other means, what then?

No.

From where I sit, as full of sins and mistakes as the rest of us, Kiwi is OK by me with WHATEVER her choice as long as

1) she means it when she chooses,
2) and does not deny her husband his freedom of choice.

NCW

Quote

2) and does not deny her husband his freedom of choice.

As a former twice betrayed spouse, this is the one thing I wished I would have had ... THE TRUTH ... so I could decide for myself instead of being manipulated.

Please tell him, Jen.

Jo

NCW

That was a magnificent post.

I don't blame KiwiJ one ioda. I even told my wife that if I fall in love with another woman I am a goner. The truth of the matter is that many people that have affairs actually fall in love with OP. The only reason the affair fails is because it has no solid base-------the relationship is constructed on BS. However, the affair partners feel the real deal (love) and if given a choice with little to pay they would fly away.

The only scenario where returning to the marriage makes sense is when OP simply provides one EN that can easiy be provided by the betrayed spouse (if he or she desires to do so). In this instance the OP can only do one EN and is unable to do the other ENs. This limitation is pronptly recognized by the wayward spouse and the affair ends. However, if OP can do all ENs as well as the BH and then some more---------there is a problem.

PS.....It just occurred to me after several of the above comments that it might have seemed as if I was holier-than-thouing myself above those on the recovery board.

For the record, let me say I am all in favor of venting in secluded areas away from the conflict.

One last note for the road. I agree that if contact is deliberately courted, even if it's to prove one's strength, personal growth, and I'm-so-over-it-ness, just one sip is a bad idea. For Neak and her husband, living in a small rural county with only one actual small town where there are markets and stores, planning to move away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> but unable to financially accomplish it yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Hey! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> She's my baby. It wasn't MY idea to be sending her off to Tornado Alley in northern Oklahoma! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)...every time either of them leave their house during this moving, preparing time, they run the risk of at least drive-by contact. I think cold indifference at the first accidental meeting, and an absolute refusal to acknowledge any subsequent accidental meetings by word or even look doesn't have to harm the wayward and may do more to convince her, by his frigid rejection of any awareness of her presence, that this beast they called [color:"red"] LOVE [/color] is finally gone.

But that only counts if they're true accidents. Wittle Oopsies! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> "Well, look who's here by, heh, heh, SURPRISE!!!!! Giggle. Titter. Snort..." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> are a whole nuther ball game.

t&l

ncwalker -

I can appreciate the situations you describe, but the proper course of action is the same in all cases if the person is M'd or in a committed relationship. The person should first end the M (or R) and wait an appropriate amount of time BEFORE having contact with a FOP or having an EA or a PA or whatever. If the new life/person is really meant to be, then it/she/he will wait.

Stanley,

Likewise, if you are protecting your M and not allowing feelings to develop, then you will not fall in love with someone other than your spouse. It does NOT just happen. It starts somewhere, and can be stopped before you get to the "love" part or the PA part or whatever it gets to. People can (and should) just walk away.

I don't post much, and I'll probably get blasted for this post. My point in posting this is that I hope this thread develops into a discussion of MB practices & how to use it throughout life.

nts,

I wholeheartedly agree. One should end before the other begins. But I would call that the PREFERRED course of action. She is, sadly, past that one. The proper one would be honoring her husband. And that is done with the truth, in whatever form that takes.

What bothers me is the potential for waffling. Not the choice. If she chooses OM and means it, I am OK with that. Yeah, a crappy thing to do to H, but better than living a lie to him. That is what my X did, and in truth, I am better off without her than having her in my life, but living a lie.

It never should happen this way. But it has. The only thing left is what next...

a) Don't go back to H. Say goodbye TODAY, follow the dream, and don't insult him further. (BTW, hope the dream comes true. Not statistically likely).

b) Go back to H and friggin MEAN it. And after this time, she doesn't have a lot of "terms." Nor should she expect them. None. His way or the highway, for at this point, protecting his trust should be her life's mission.

My point is - we can't say it is "wrong" for Kiwi to leave her husband. Only that it is wrong to keep betraying him. It would be a lie to go back to him and not tell him what happened. But it would be no less of a lie to go back out of some sense of "duty" and hate being married, all the while pretending she loved him.

Now if this TRULY was a mistake, and it very well could be, the right thing to do is tell the H. Otherwise you steal HIS right to be happy. This NC breach may be enough for him.

I am not looking KiwiJ in the eyes when she tells us what she is telling us. I think motive and intent cannot be gleaned from this. What I only see is a scared woman. And rightfully so. Scared of where her heart is at. Scared of what her H will do. A fearful state of mind is NOT conducive to good choices. And it is easy to judge her choices when we are not in her fearful state. The only way out of this mess is

1) lose the fear
2) make the choice
3) stick by it

Like I said before. Unless he said "If you do it again, I don't want to know," he wants to know.

But it does NOT take away from anything Kiwi has done to help on this board. It does not devalue any point she has made that stands on its own merits.

I myself have learned important life lessons from preachers and bibles, but also from drunks and liquor bottles. The lessons from both were valuable.

Jenny

If you have been settling for Rob, and your last two years of self-delusion have not been successful, then you need to tell Rob this so that you can split and get on with your lives honestly.

If you truly love Rob and want to be with him, and this was just a sobriety test, you failed it and yu must tell Rob and hope he has it in his heart to help you get back on the wagon.

If you are confused, you need to tell Rob so that he can make a contribution to the discussion of confusion too.

There is no way, IMO, that your actions can be presented to Rob that will not make him feel settled for and ultimately rejected Jenny.

Rob has earned the right to be treated properly in this IMO. Even if it releases pain and leads to divorce you have to tell him IMO.

Who knows ? He's forgiven you before, maybe he will again ?

Whatever happens Jenny,please don't settle for Rob. Not again.

Dave

NCW,

"If she chooses OM and means it, I am OK with that."

I have two problems with this - maybe you can clarify for me:

1. It appears to be a thorough repudiation of MB methods. They don’t work so why are we even here?

2. It’s not ethical. Aside from morals, sin, choosing pain, or avoidance of pain – one should keep their promises. It’s pure ethics. Keep your promises or renegotiate before unilaterally breaking them.

One could, I suppose, interpret your posts to mean it’s OK for anyone to have an A, sample the wares so to speak, and then choose. As long as they choose, sooner than later. And pretty much at any point in one's M.

You reasoning seems to apply to all of life. Contracts, promises to children or elderly parents, treaties between countries, civil laws.

I can’t believe you mean this. It must be irony or something.

Then again, maybe this is the excuse I have been waiting for.

Jen,

I feel sad. For you, for Rob, for OM's BW. I even feel bad for OM.

I wish you well, and I will say a special prayer for all of you tonight.

Aphelion,

Hello, can you please help me understand why you feel bad for OM?

Thank you.

Hi Aph

It appears to be a thorough repudiation of MB methods. They don’t work so why are we even here?

This is more a demonstration that MB works ( Extraordinary NC would have prevented this meeting I assume).

Also MB can't work against a person's will. Jen clearly wanted to do this. MB isn't brainwashing.

This sit makes me sad and a little scared too.

Some of you appear to have missed that my last words to OM were "you are a ****** and I'm not going down this path again." but that is completely immaterial. Because, if he hadn't proved himself to be a complete jerk (yet again) I don't know what would have happened.

I wouldn't have had another A, of that you can be sure. I would have told Rob and I would have divorced him. Do you really think I'm so stupid that I can't see all this? This has blindsided me. I've always admitted the OM has a huge pull on me. Duh. I've always admitted that I'm completely vulnerable when it comes to him. That is why NC was so important to me. Please re-read your Harley. B gets it.

Prescott (Bob you know I mean) made me sick. Really, really sick to my stomach.

A repudiation of Harley methods? No, it's not.

We are nearly 3 years on. Life is back to normal. Normal was never where I really wanted to be. Exciting and how we were after d-day is where I want to be.

I wanted to meet my DD in Europe, the Greek Islands, or Italy again but no, too expensive, not worth it, silly thing to do.

I can't live like that.

Jen,

Ok, so u r vulnerable. We all are. Imagine Pep, Mel, WAT, JL or myself having an A? Entirely possible....but highly improbable.

So that means we are all vulnerable. Listen hon,....no sense in beating yourself up over this. You know you won't have an A? Then that's good. But still being near the OM gives you the heebie jeebies? Well it should. Glad you got feeling to get the heebie jeebies.

Ok Jen.....whatcha' gonna do? You know we love you and want what is best for you and your H. How can we help?

I'd offer a free trip to the islands but I suspect you got quite a beautiful place over there, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

KiwiJ,

I am as upset about this as anybody - and I realize I shouldn't be. As a BS, I feel it is my right to know the truth - whatever that truth is. I feel I deserve that much from gemela. If gemela decides to go out for drinks with her swimming instructor, I do hope she will tell me even if that means divorce. I have the right to decide too - not just her.

Whether you stay in your M or run off into the sunset with OM, that is your business. You don't owe me anything. I also won't think less of you if you do run off with OM. We each have our lives to live. You have to make your own choices and accept the consequences of those choices. I guess I am trying to apologize to you. You have forced me to re-examine a lot of issues - but they are my issues - not yours. Thank you for your honesty here.

The OM is not an option. He never was and he never will be.

I am being more honest on here than I've probably ever been.

Tonight I'm doing my scrapbooking, H and DS are practicing guitar, I've had a lovely e-mail from DD in France.

Do you really think I want to change any of this?

It's as much me as Rob. We are at a very funny stage of our lives. Middle age. He wants to travel again, just on his terms ie when DD is back here. We are back to him watching TV all day, we are back to having a whole lot of garden rubbish to move, we are back to having a bathroom that needs renovating. These things are important to me.

When I said before that I felt bound to him I meant he is family. That's probably the nicest and best thing you can say about anyone.

I would die away from Rob. I know I would. But how do I know? I've been with him since I was 18.

BTW Orchid, you made my cry. I've always been frightened of you. You made me cry.

I've been amazed at the support of people I never would have expected it from and the writing off of me from people I would have expected better of.

Have you explained to Rob that grouting is an EN for you?

LMAO Traic, yes I have.

I know you're sort of being funny but it really is an EN for me.

My father kept our house and garden in the most immaculate condition you can imagine. It was so important to us as a family. I feel I can't even invite people over. I love company but don't want them to see all the things that need doing. (He won't get a "man" in to do them either. won't spend the money)

BTW no one ever matches my father. This is a very big problem and sounds funny but isn't.

Jen

I am so sad to see you rationalising, Jenny. Because thats what it look like to me.

I didn't miss your last words Jen. But they meant nothing, as you seem to agree in you rpost here.

You had finished previous meetings with OM fervently asserting your disinterest and your poor opinion of him. Yet you found yourself in contact, then conversation, then socialising with OM.

OM didn't believe the finality of your rejection in the past, and your recent actions have completely reinforced that in him mind, I have no doubt.

You swear up and down that you wouldn't have had another affair, but by many smart people's definitions Jenny, that is exactly what you have just done. An EA at least.

That a rage rises within you to deny this should tell you something IMO.

Prescott made me sick too. If you read today that he had been in email contact with his OW, bumped into her at the store then arranged to drink socially with her, and gave the excuses YOU have given to the press, what would you think of him then ?

What do you think he should do then Jenny ?

What would you do if you were his long suffering wife ?

You have always admitted that OM has a huge pull on you, when was that, Jen ? All i have read from you for the past two years have been how very very over him you are; how Rob is your everything, how the thought of OM disgusts you and how you can't see what you ever saw in him.

Then here you say that you know NC is vitally important for you but you met OM previously and hurt Rob because of it. Now you choose to make yourself vulnerable again by communicating with him, meeting him and escalating it.


You say you are nervous about giving yourself completely to Rob ? Are you sure you ar enot just nervous about permanently, irreversably closing the door to OM ?

Jen please do not snap-recommit to Rob with tears and repentence and 'try your best' again to be happy with him. I fear and loathe being "tolerated" more than almost anything else on earth, and I know many men agree with me.

Do not just work out whether you can live happily without OM in your life at all for ever or not, but whether Rob is all you desire. If he is not, please tell him. You both need the change for a content code to your marriage Jen. Not more of this, please.

I care very much. Probably too much. I am sorry that I placed expectations on you that you were not able to meet. It was not fair of me

Well at least you are laughing. That is a positive sign. I don't hire people to do work either. But that is because I believe I will do it better. I didn't say CAN do it better. I said WILL do it better. It is a question of commitment. Don't forget I have a Snap-On tool for EVERYTHING so I do have an advantage.

I do wish you the best. I couldn't help but muse over your comment about wanting things like right after Dday. Gemela forced me to paint the garage with her last weekend. Boring as all get out. I can think of a lot more things I would rather do. Marriage is boring to an extent. That is one of its attractions for me. Not that I like boring. it is knowing that somebody will be there for me regardless of the circumstances. I know there is a point here but I totally don't understand what I am trying to say. I'll stop talking now.

"Nothing like the smell of varnish in the morning". (sorry - that was napalm).

Jen

MB marrige IS boring haven't you noticed ? No hot passion, no recklessness, no arguments only discussion, no annoying habits that make a person human, no disrespectful talk or behaviour so we never grow our envelope of interaction, and instead we are to take our pleasure in 'intimacy' and conversation and in the absence of anger. Shoot me in the head, please !

You may not be built like that Jenny. I know I'm certainly not. But this is just a stopping point on the journey. You think life with OM would be exciting all the time ? After you'd washed his skids and heard him fart or a few month steh excitement would die away. You know like I do that relationship excitement is a transient way to position us to be ready for breeding. Its not a sustainable state of living.

The trick is, I think, to find adventure TOGETHER within your marriage. Do stupid stuff TOGETHER.

I can't do that very much now because we have young children and no babysitters but YOU have that chance.

But any hope of a REAL sustainable adventure starts with you telling Rob doesn't it ?

Bob, that is what I am saying. I have never said otherwise. I have never said the OM disgusts me. I have said I am indifferent to the OM.

Yes, you have put huge expectations on me. So as everyone, as I can see from the reaction to all this.

If I had not met the OM in the grocery store I would never have contacted him again.

His wife wants to talk with me. She wants to talk with me very much. I know her. She is quite a special woman. That is what OM really wants. It's what he keeps angling for. I know why she wants to talk with me and I would like to talk to her. She knows the history, she knows why it was me. Sometimes reality is stranger than what people want or expect.

BTW Traic, you and your Snap Tools would be VERY useful around here.

Bob, I know what marriage is like. I don't want to live with the OM. We have nothing in common. I know him very, very well. We were joined at the hip for 5 years remember. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bob, I WANT to do silly stuff together, Rob doesn't.

Why would OMW want to talk to you Jen ? I assume its not to poke you in the eye. Polyamory ? Surely not !

I don't know Bob. I truly don't know.

He went to great pains to tell me how much he loves his W at our "drinks date" as per Pep. When we first met again 4 years ago our first thought was to meet for dinner, both families, but something twisted and that never happened.

He said he wants some sort of contact but not sexual contact. He said why can't the 4 of us be friends. I snorted and said cos Rob wants to punch you in the nose and then rip your guts out.

For me, accepting and enjoying boredom is what makes marriage possible. If I wanted excitement all the time, I never would have gotten married and I certainly couldn't stay married. I think of celebrity marriages. Movie stars who travel all the time, go from one party to the next, lives full of excitement, money no concern - and they can't stay married. Why? Because there is nothing underneath the excitement. Things get a little boring and they walk.

I used to have great jobs. Exciting jobs. Getting shot at and cool stuff. Now my job is mind-numbing boring. But I have a great place for my kids to grow up and they can have so many opportunities. I can have really great vacations every year. The people here live from repat to repat. Everything in between is just passing time.

I have great times with gemela - but not all the time. We have a lot of "boredom" too. Last night we spent several hours cleaning up, bathing DD2 repeatedly, changing clothes and sheets because she kept throwing up on herself. I can't say I enjoyed that activity in and of itself but I did enjoy it because it is part of what being a family is. I had a great time cleaning up vomit. And all the while I am thinking WW probably wishes she was off at some night club dancing the night away with OM. Oh well. To each his own. I have no point to this BTW. Just talking out loud.

No, Traic, that is not what she was thinking. She was probably thinking the same as you. I know you're talking out loud. I'm thrilled to be talking at all to anyone without being villified. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL we have a course on International Relations at the university. We call it the "bombs and guns" course. You'd like that.

I remember DS throwing up on me all the way home in the car one night. H and I just kept looking at each other and rolling our eyes.

By the time I got home I was down to my underslip and we just dealt with it.

We've been married 32 years, we've brought up teenagers. Ha! talk to me when you've done that both of you.

You think a land mine is scarey. You haven't dealt with a 15 year old.

What are you going to do Jenny ? Now I mean. You went from declaiming love and mush in your 'affair world' post six weeks ago to, well, THIS.

Now either you were lying THEN, or you're rationalising NOW as to why you couldn't leave OM alone IMO.

What you going to do next Jen ?

Oh Bob, I just saw why does OM W want to talk, not OM.

Good grief, not polyamory she is a devout Christian.

It's hard to explain. I just know it would be good to talk with her. For both of us (her and me).

Same way you 'just knew' meeting OM for a drink would be a good idea ?

if EVER you needed POJA its now Jenny.

I made u cry? Awwh geeze Jen, if you really see how short I am, you won't bat an eyelash. LOL!!!

Ok, y r u frightened of me?

Actually I have a lot of respect 4 u. Now this episode was a downer but not enough to diminish your value.

Btw, I haven't written you off. I could have but see no value in doing so. Guess I'm bit selfish but I think you have been a great contributor here. Keeping us balanced when the BS in us wants to do a 180 swan dive but end up headed for a belly flop, ya know?!??!

Ok, back to da' real question....y r u frightened of me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Tell Rob you want to go zorbing or sledging - or BOTH! They each look exciting and not very expensive. Has anyone ever tried zorbing without the water? That is what I want. Could be painful though. Possible chaffing issues.

no "excitement in the marriage"....kids leaving home and being independant.....sounds like a mid-life to me. there were things you alluded to without going into explainations that had me wondering about this recently......

have you told him yet????? if you arent happy with YOUR life.......then you knew what to do...this wasnt it and you know that also.

Yes, Jen have you told him yet?

The longer you hold off the more you dishonor him, yourself and the marriage.

Remember, love is a choice, a command...and not something we do when it feels right to do so. You say you are scared to tell him, well that is too bad...we honor someone even when it is scary to do so.

You should be talking to Rob about this, he is the one you go to first, your husband.

You know all this stuff Jen. Let this be something which brings you closer together and not something which destroys you both...like JustJ said, scary things grow in the dark.

Why not "because that is NOT good for my MARRIAGE and my family. It is harmful!!!"

It is NOT Rob's fault that he wants to punch and rip him.

TRUST ME. IT WON'T!!! I have been there and done that.

It just reopens the old wound that should have already been closed and healing.

Jen said:



This is the deal Jen. If I knew Myrta felt that way I would call OM immediately and give Myrta to him. I don’t want to be married to a woman that thinks the way you do. Your H needs to know what you really think. I would love to hear the voice of Jen that is not pre-programmed for the MB audience.




This is the dilemma that was mentioned above. The concept of staying married to keep the family and everything else (the boring status quo) versus the concept of riding into the sunset with OM.

I suspect that if OM was single and available you would have decided to ride into the sunset with OM. As you said----OM is not viable so you must stay married.


BP said:


As Freud said------this is nothing but a mechanism of defense.

"I wouldn't have had another A, of that you can be sure. I would have told Rob and I would have divorced him. Do you really think I'm so stupid that I can't see all this? This has blindsided me. I've always admitted the OM has a huge pull on me. Duh. I've always admitted that I'm completely vulnerable when it comes to him. That is why NC was so important to me."


[color:"red"] So.....I didn't think it would hurt to talk with him. So I did. Same thing, just as though I was speaking with any old friend I may have bumped into.

OMG, do you know HOW CLOSE I CAME TO BEING INVOLVED WITH THIS MAN AGAIN.
[/color]

WHY???

Why did you even stop and talk with him when you clearly claim the vulnerability...and to go on dates with him too!!!!

WOW...that's a contradiction of monstrous proportions.

You have gone on 2 dates with him now...you are now a WW...

When are you going to come clean with your H so that he can make his choice of what he needs to do?

committed

So you are saying that KiwiJ went from being FWW to WW? or, in other words, she got the F outta there. And now you are suggesting that maybe BH should be given the same option? I see...

I would so much like to present a defense on your behalf. Of course, not because you need someone the likes of me to do so but more for myself as your situation has the appearance of an alien landscape and I have a deep fear that my failure to understand it could conceivably place me in it.

It appears on the surface that yours is a simple case of “cake eating”. It seems that you chase a desire to stoke a yearning at the expense of others. You do so with the full knowledge of the potential harm you will cause. It appears that you want your husband and you want something more, perhaps it is the OM but I might suggest that that the OM might only be a symbol for an itch that you cannot seem to scratch.

You said of your husband:

Expect to the person you love. That statement chills me to the bone. If that were the extent of what my wife had to say about me then I would know that my pursuit of a deep and loving relationship had failed. I will suggest that you need to think about this without rationalizing it. It is not just the single quote that I have outlined but your entire tone of your most recent posts that suggest that your love for your husband is not what it should be. He should be more, much more, then just the father of your children and your friend. You of course, know this.



I think it is because those people that you have valued these recent years feel a bit lost and betrayed by your recent actions. Marriage Builders is the home of “true confessions” and it appear that you have kept a secret yearning hidden while doling out constructive advice to others that is the complete antithesis to your recent actions.





Your inability to settle for “normal” is troubling. JL had suggested that you may be a person who requires drama in their life and perhaps that is what your comment suggests. Also troubling is that you are apparently just now discovering that “normal” is not where you want to be. Is it a coincidence that you make this discovery after your “OM-Fix”? As far as the travel providing an adequate level of excitement I might suggest that you could have accomplished it had you communicated the importance of it to your husband. But I must ask you, had he agreed to go to Europe would that action removed the OM as a threat?

The trick is, I think, to find adventure TOGETHER within your marriage. Do stupid stuff TOGETHER.

No doubt that is a major and important “key” at least for my wife and me. At the same time I highly value the wonderful pleasures that I get from the simple things in life. Your actions make me question that value and I must now reexamine it to insure that my wife thinks as I do on this and is not just giving me lip service.



The expectations are not huge at all. The fact that you see them as such says volumes regarding where you are at in your life and your marriage.



The correct answer would have been “Because I don’t want you in my life”. I can’t help but wonder why you did not take the great opportunity to set him straight right then.



Please try to invent a result that would benefit you. In your wildest dreams I cannot envision a conversation that would improve your marriage. I can however envision much that would keep the drama alive and the OM a part of your life.

In summary I think that after two thousand posts and all of the education you have traveled full circle and you are a bit lost. I can’t help but wonder how the next chapter will play out. I hope your husband is prepared for the disappointment he is about to endure. You say your eyes are swollen from tears yet your calculating meetings with the OM tell a completely different story. It is a story that you are the sole author of, so the tears make little sense. At 50 years old your life on this planet draws to the evening.

Mr. G

I'm just a bystander to this thread, but I think you *should* travel a bit. Travel is enlightening. Not to Europe or the Greek Islands, though. (how exciting that would be! Sun and fun!)

No, why don't you go to Africa and watch a few women your daughter's age die in childbirth? Maybe hold a few dying AIDS babies? Go to Moscow and talk to the women your age standing outside the subways trying to sell their pots and pans because that is their only source of income now that their husbands are dead and their society and social safety nets have crumbled? Maybe come to my neck of the woods and watch immigrant women your age take two buses to get to a job where they scrub toilets all day?

And then you can come home to your little garden and your bathroom that needs some work and your bright healthy children and your boring husband, and contemplate hurting everyone who loves you because you lack some indefinable excitement.

I'm sorry. I will probably regret having posted this. I was sympathetic to a point. But whiny, priviledged baby boomer midlife crisis angst drives me over the edge. Lady, you don't know what problems ARE. There are people who would give their eyeballs for your "normal" boring life. I wish you appreciated it more.

Jen,
I haven't really contributed to your threads here, we have only 'met' in passing.

I know this has opened up a well of emotions and fears for me, a BS. It has also opened up several discussions between my FWS and myself.

You made a remark about Pep calling it a Drink Date. Is that not what it was?

Bumping into him in the grocery store was an accident. Going to get coffee took an effort you had to leave the store with him. You had to know you were stepping off a cliff. What part of you wanted that thrill?

Going for drinks took even more effort. You PLANNED it. You set a date and a time. You thought about it in the days between. You got dressed for it. Umm, did you buy something new and exciting to wear? If that's not a date, what is it?

My FWS getting an email from an old gf was not his fault. Him responding took action on his part- I guess you see where this is going, don't you?

Now, put yourself in your normal postion on this board- if you as a FWW saw someone doing what you have done, how would you recact? I don't think you'd be holding their hands and telling them everything was going to be fine. I think you'd be telling them they screwed up royally and that they should be telling their spouse, writing a letter of no contact, and abiding by no contact. You'd tell them in no way should speak to the OMW. You KNOW all the answers.

Now, that you are in all honesty not a FWW any longer, what should those on the board be telling you?

Maybe you want everyone to tell you it will be ok, that this was just a 'little slip' and so on. You knew that was not going to happen when you started this thread.

Tell your husband- do what you know is right.

Hoopsie,

Don't you dare change a word! That was an awesome post!

ETA: Not just for Jen, for all of us to remember. At my worst times (and my H and I were homeless three years ago)... we still had family who helped and lived in a free country. I've wallowed a lot during our struggles - not proud of it, couldn't seem to get out of it. And we're still struggling. But dam, you brought the TRUTH home... Be thankful...

Wow. What a post. Nothing to add at all.

And a lesson to me and MANY OTHER occasionally Whiny BS and FWS on these boards.

Hoopsie,

This has long been my thoughts on WW's who seemingly have a great, successful husband and the seemingly perfect world. And this is why I know that Jen has some inner work to do...her willingness to upset her marriage, her family and her own life tells of unrest within her soul.

Sometimes I think so many have it easy, and they need to struggle, need to destroy so that they can create. How sad that we do not take everything we have that makes our life so comfortable and use it as a base where we can create good things, help people...get our sense of self from that.

Jen will figure all this out, and will get to the bottom of why she did this and what she needs to do to fill up that hole that she seems to think the OM (or her husband) can fill.

This is the inner work we will all eventually be forced to do...(hopefully).

Here are some facts:

Jen is bored with normal-----meaning no excitement.

Saw OM again---------got excited.

Planned meetings with OM after the accidental encounter-------more excitement.

Acknowledged OM was not much of anything until OM showed signs of interest in her. Then OM became attractive once again.

OM had ended relationship before-----this was a huge blow. Jen grieved the loss of OM while her H held her.

Jen decided to work on the marriage because OM ended the affair and had no intention of leaving his wife. OTOH, Jen was ready to leave.

Jen met with OM hoping to hear OM say: “Now I am ready to leave my wife. I was wrong, I made the wrong decision---I always loved you”.

However, OM said something different: OM affirmed his love for his wife and asked Jen to mediate for him with the wife. It almost sounds as if OM wants Jen to fix his marriage.

At this point I have to assume Jen was profoundly disappointed. This is not what she wanted to hear. Jen wanted OM to say I want to ride with you in the sunset. Instead Jen got the same OLD text. At this point Jen decided to post in MB and to consider the idea of telling H about her encounters with OM.

IN summary:

Jen is an MB convert as long as OM rejects her.

If OM was single and available----------------and if OM wanted to ride into the sunset with Jen I don’t think Jen would be an MB convert.

This is not rocket science-----it is rather simple. Many stay married out of convenience and go thru the motions.

There is also a HUGE difference between having an affair with all the intentions to leave the marriage versus having an affair with NO intentions to leave the marriage.

Jen wanted out and she didn’t get out because OM did not follow thru.

I'm not sure what I want to say here. This whole thing has been incredibly disturbing. Don't blame Pep for giving voice to her emotions over on recovery because more than a few FWSs and BSs have had to do that. Process why what you did Kiwi triggered so many of us.

You have plenty of friends here who are giving you all the unconditional love and support that you could ever ask for. I have always enjoyed your views on MB, but don't have the friend status going with you. So I'm just going to talk to you as someone who I have known on these boards for a long time. Within the 1st year after d-day H told me that in a book he was reading the author said everyone needs people in their lives who will tell them the truth. He said I did that for him. I don't know you, but I can be straight with you regarding what I'm seeing.

What disturbed me more than anything was your justification that it was OK to even say hello to the OM at the grocery store. You prided yourself in not having any feelings for him. You passed the test. This is what I don't understand. Did it ever occur to you that by even speaking to OM you were chatting with someone who brutally hurt your H? I had a conversation with my H about this yesterday. I asked him if he really understood that any friendly contact with OW would be like he was having friendly contact with my rapist? He "claims" he understands this. He continued telling me that he knows the great harm that was done to me because of his A. I asked him if he understood that OW is my enemy and that if he truly loves me then she is his enemy too. I know many FWSs here don't agree with that. But I can't be with my H knowing he has any gooey, fond feelings for the woman who ripped me to shreds and hurt my boys.

So you wanted the honeymoon phase that you experienced after recovery to continue? Well join the club. That honeymoon phase came with a big price. From the BS standpoint it had to do with high levels of adrenalin flowing through our bodies. It was being in fight or flight mode for those of us dealing with a withdrawing FWS. It had to do with feeling a deep love for our very "F"ed up Ss. That honeymoon phase that you so fondly remember was born out of deep suffering. I can't speak to what it was like for the FWS. I think for my H he had forgotten that he loved me. He forgot he had even been sexually attracted to me. What a surprise for him when he thought he might lose me to discover he had missed me. That he did feel deep feelings for me.

My H was in-love with the fantasy of the perfect R during his A. Don't we all know that every stage 1 infatuation eventually turns into stage 2 and stage 3? A growing, passionate M takes effort. If you think your H is watching too much TV, or is blowing off the bathroom renovation project, then talk to him. If you can't talk to him, then get help in MC. And if it's just that you think some perfect, romantic R is out there waiting for you, then give your H a break and go follow your destiny. You'll never be able to give yourself fully to your H as long as you're living in a fantasy.

The reason some of us have had to process your news is that you were one of the FWS poster children here on MB. If you could so easily and carelessly slip into contact with the OP, so casually forget about the effect on your H and your children, then many of us BSs wonder if renewed contact is just a chance meeting with the OP away?

I hope that the next post from you on here is stating that you have told your H. If nothing else he does deserve that truth. Then I hope you can get clear within yourself about what you are doing and what you really want? Also, there is another human being in this equation that I personally relate to. That is the OM's W. Does she know you and her H have been hanging out? What about her pain? Her right to know what is happening in her life? I hope things work out for you, and especially for your H.

Jen,

It’s your Affair World friend Plank here.

I’ve been away for a bit and upon my return I was sad to see that you had fallen into a bad place.

Jen please read that thread again. Read it! Remember everything that you said and how you felt when you wrote it.

I know you are probably getting a virtual landslide of attention on this subject already, but I was hoping that I could just talk WITH you a minute and express my concerns because I consider you a non-emotional fulfilling friend. Pure and simple.

Jen you wrote: [color:"blue"]Some of you appear to have missed that my last words to OM were "you are a ****** and I'm not going down this path again." but that is completely immaterial. Because, if he hadn't proved himself to be a complete jerk (yet again) I don't know what would have happened. [/color]

My friend you already had another A with him. You met him for the meeting of your EN’s. That’s it. You never planned on having sex with him again but do they ever??

NC is NC. This is why. And from what I’m about to say next you can hate me but I really prefer that you think of it as honest words from someone that cares about you in a support group:

I think this is all about maturity Jen.

You want excitement and diversion from normalcy. The things that cited as unadventurous and dull are those same things that you will miss the most if this all blows up in your face. Think about that for a while.

Your H sounds like he’s dedicated, hard working, family loving, honest, and sincere; all wonderful characteristics that any woman would love to have in her H yes?

Well if you look at those same qualities in a fit of addiction you are going to see a good man that is BORING, BORING, BORING.

Jen if you have needs that have an exciting adventurous quality to them can you sit down with your H and POJA them? Reasonably?

My W would love it if I walked off of my job and toured the Americas with her…… for about a month until we were broke and living on the street. Then it would be all about survival and all of the hoopla over fun and excitement wouldn’t be worth it I would imagine.

You sound very spoiled. Would you say that is true about yourself?

Do you have other addictive issues in your life?

I am married to a woman that I could see as saying some of the things that you are saying so I believe that I have some insight.

Jen, over here if you have a bad dog that’s a biter you may give it one chance. Just one. If it bites someone else we euthanize it.

OM (no longer FOM) is a biter. He’s bitten and bitten. While you can’t euthanize him in our society, unfortunately, you can elect to uphold your marital covenant and NEVER speak with him again. You know inside of your soul how important this is.

If you don’t, then it’s like a freshly primed needle of heroin in front of a heroin addicts arm that’s already bound with tourniquet. Will they or won't they...

You must avoid the needle.

Jen you are a wonderful person as MANY MB’s will attest to.

Take your H by the hand and tell him about all of this with more compassion than you’ve ever mustered in your life. And when you tell him, tell him about the plan you have to have no further contact with OM. None ever.

I wish the strength of strengths for you to find the resolve to fight for your M.

Plank.

Shouldn't we all, BS and WS, keep this in mind at all times regardless of someone else's actions. Should it not be the catalyst for bettering all of our relationships all the time?

This situation has certainly stirred up a HUGE amount of emotion of many, many people. But at the end of the day none of us have the right to hang the responsibility for our emotions on Jen.

She screwed up we all know that. Now wouldn't it be more helpful for everyone to stop trying to hang their personal crap on her?

When is enough enough?

Which MB principals allow us to continually batter this person. At what point do WE victimize her with all this continual harassment and pseudo psychiatry (oooh I used a big word)?

Don't you people even have the smallest thought that maybe she KNOWS she screwed up?

I challenge everyone to take full responsibility for their own emotions and recoveries and stop hanging it on someone else who has done nothing for anyone here on these forums except offer encouragement.

I think that for myself I am openly admitting that Kiwi triggered the crap out of me. I openly acknowledge that it is my very own crap.

"Which MB principals allow us to continually batter this person. At what point do WE victimize her with all this continual harassment and pseudo psychiatry (oooh I used a big word)?"

I stand by everything I just wrote to her. I appreciate that she came clean about her meetings with the OM. However, the fact remains that her H might still not know. It's very possible that OM's W does not know. So what part of the MB principles are we following when we don't encourage her to come clean immediately? Does being supportive mean that not one thing that might resemble a negative emotion come out on this thread? Hey, if that's being supportive then I'll let the truly supportive people post here!

Don't get me wrong. I am all for supporting Rob and Jen and I am not trying to make anyone specific a target for my comments.

If Jen writes here then she should expect the 2x4s as I am sure she does.

But does there not come a point when all points have been made?

Does there not come a point when enough 2x4s have been thrown?

Does there not come a point when those of us put to much emphasis on how her behaviors affect us should take their own responsibility?

Maybe we should take count of all the 2x4s that have been thrown at Jen and simply say enough is enough.

I can only image that she is probably stuck under a mountian of them and is trying to dig out from under them and sort out what she needs to sort out.

The situation sucks big time. But have some compassion. I am not asking anyone to like what has happened, just consider when the mob has crossed the line.

Waita a minute!

I am not putting Jen down. I am not beating her over the head for not following MB principles. I don’t think MB principles imply that a person should remain in an unhappy loveless marriage. Sometimes there is no more love despite the fact that love is a verb. Sometimes WW falls for OM and never falls back in love with BH-------it happens. If this is the case then I am applauding Jen for at least having the balls to face her demons and to perhaps consider another alternative. I am not putting Jen down at all. I am simply saying what Jen is afraid to tell herself. She is hungry, but tells herself she is satisfied.


If my wife felt the way Jen did I would want to know. I would want that information to make a decision regarding the marriage. I suspect Jen is going to withhold the info because she has dugged herself into a corner and there is no way out. There is no OM waiting for her and there is the chance that the BH may say bye to the marriage. In fact, I remember what Jen said in one post regarding the issue of doing this again. I believe Jen's H was very clear and said he was given her only one chance.

Bottom line here is I have seen plenty of 2X4s go out on a WS who is unwilling to inform S that an A is ongoing or has been and now is dead.

Jen knew what she was doing, thought she could play with fire and got burnt. She should have known better. This is exactly why the Harley's are so adamant about NC. What part of NC do any of you not understand?

She is now a WW again. She needs to tell S no matter what the outcome.

How many FWSs when faced with D-Day thought S would explode and D would be iminent? Most if not all.

How many actually had to D because FBS was adamant? Not many here.

She cannot know what her S will do and is DJing the he77 out of him by second guessing him. She may have a very educated guess or estimate of what he will do, but can never be absolutely sure until he knows and decides. He may very well choose to stay, this is his choice! No one has the right to take that away from him.

Personally, I don't know what I would do and don't want to go there.

I do know that she made a willful decision and now has to live with the consequences. I will pray for both of them and all the rest of us here on MB.

There is a lesson here that we all should take to heart. NC means NC period! There is no substitute for NC! trying to get around NC is like being a little pregnant either you are or you are not! There is no in between!

Ok kiddo

NONE of this NONE OF THIS

would upset me

IF

you had this discussion with YOUR HUSBAND sitting next to you

the fact you did not have him sitting next to you enjoying coctails with ~another woman's husband~

makes this a date

and not JUST a date

a
~secret date~

Am I wrong?

I am ready to talk now that my anger has passed. Whenever you are ready. I had to protect you from my anger... but now I do not.

Pep

Again Stan, I am not specifically pointing fingers. AND I agree with you completely.

I am only suggesting that maybe Jen has enough input?

Maybe we can give her a moment to breath until she asks for something?

All the best comments/advice in the world given constantly at some point become useless and unhelpful. And for sure the negative comments/advice that some of us have offered are not helpful at all.

I am asking us to balance our own emotions and reactions about the situation with what is helpful for Jen in doing what we would all like her to do and ultimately what she decides to do.

FROM My Thread in Recovery:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

KY

thanks for that...

I KNOW when I am really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> REALLY I best exit stage left ... coz my mouth moves independently from my common sense.

I am wanting to ask you a question ....

WHAT IF.... this is purely HYPOTHETICAL ... so read it as such:

Jen decides to NEVER tell her H the WHOLE story ... who amongst her friends and supporters is willing to contact her H and EXPOSE her?

If we were posting to Mel's H, and we knew he had re-connected to OW, but MEL did not know ... I am thinking if I did not tell her she might open her can of Texas you-know-what on my butt!

This is an ethical question for all of us who push PUSH PUSH ... exposure.

Just thinking....

and guess what?

I slept GREAT last nite ... and I am not one bit angry today

I am not going to be <~~~ mr Sheldon's dog today

Doesn't her husband know she posts here? She's been posting for years; I assume he peeks in from time to time. Won't he find out on his own? If not, I hope somebody sends him the link. He will feel like a one helluva fool when he finds out that the teeming millions in cyberland have been discussing the betrayal of his marriage while he's snoring obliviously on the couch. Talk about the husband being the last to know ...

Stupid question here, but what is the analogy of "Mr. Sheldon's Dawg"? I'm so outta the loop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It's a dawg that bit BobPure when he was a little boy ...

WOOF

Pep

"Maybe we can give her a moment to breath until she asks for something?"

"I am asking us to balance our own emotions and reactions about the situation with what is helpful for Jen in doing what we would all like her to do and ultimately what she decides to do."

Frankly there is absolutely nothing more to say. She needs to tell her H, PERIOD! If after that she sincerely wants support for rebuilding her M I'd be happy to offer any support if I can. If she does real soul searching, within herself and with her H, and they decide it's best to D I'll support her journey into being a single W. There's no way I'm going to support her riding off into the sunset with her MM OM!

Stanley wrote:

"I am simply saying what Jen is afraid to tell herself. She is hungry, but tells herself she is satisfied."

You might have the juiciest steak in front of you, or Lobster, whatever your taste buds desire. However, if you think there is an even juicier steak out there your hunger will never be satisfied.

Stanley, I hope you really don't think this "in-love" feeling in As is for real. As much as it hurt me to realize my H had in-love feelings for OW I somehow always saw it for the pure bullsh** it was. The great love in As is laughable. A FWS who is still fantasizing about that "love" never got out of the fantasy IMHO.

Greer

This isn't just jen. Her high profile on these boards makes her every FWS even 3 years into recovery.

SWEAR to me that it hasn't made you nervous about your own situation ?

Jen was superspouse six weeks ago when she wrote 'teh affair world' with Plank. Now look at her. Folks who motvate also deflate. And this is abad 'un.

The volume of responses is testament to the esteem in which she was held on here I think. she even said to me in a thread afer writing the affair word "i hope I haven't set a standard as a FWS that others cannot reach".

Now we are to believe she was bored in her marrige, Rob's apathetic etc while she was writing that ?

All high profile posters events are models to the rest of us. We are all offering up our hopes and fear to this insult to see how valid they still are.

Don't take this personally vicariously. Lke I did. For example <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jen

I didn't miss it, but it doesn't dilute the fact you betrayed your husband, your family, again. Or the hurt he will feel ONCE YOU TELL HIM.

If this man is such a sh*t, then why have you risked your marriage for someone who has no where near the love your husband has for you?

There are some differences. For example my wife was the poster child for cake eating. She had zero intentions to leave the marriage and probably had to convince herself she was in love so she could feel good with OM. When OM talked about their future plans she used to roll her eyes in secret. There were no plans-----this was a game to ameliorate a MLC. The fact that OM was 3000 miles away was great------the last thing she wanted was for OM to be local. She didn’t want to deal with that stress and aggravation. On d-day she dropped OM in a heartbeat--------no if’s or but’s.

The above is not love I agree.

However, wanting to get out of the marriage very badly to make a life with OM is something entirely different. This is pretty close to being in love.

Rebuilding a marriage with someone that never wanted to end the marriage is a piece of cake when compared to someone that actually wanted out of the marriage. Harley says it can be done, but I am not man enough to do it------------I would bail out.

agreed


well said


ditto

Again I am not pointing fingers. Just wondering about the size of the wounds that we could be causing Jen.

Jen

I've been on a break from MB, and I've rarely posted to you anyway. I haven't posted because, frankly, I've had deep reservations about your situation, so I'm not terribly surprised to find that this has happened.

I believe you really, really, really need to get yourself some serious counselling from a good professional. You need to do it now, before you cause any more damage and pain to yourself and others. This board is a good support for people in pain, but it is not a place to come for the kind of help you need.

None of us here actually 'know' you, and it's dangerous to infer too much from cyber-revelations. However, the things you've done over the last several years, as opposed to the things you've said and the image you present of yourself, suggest that you are deeply conflicted, but are unwilling to confront those conflicts head-on. You come across to me as being stuck in childhood in certain areas of your life, and I think that that stuckness - with all its attendant frustrations and illusions - may be the source of your restlessness and lack of self-image.

Cod psychology apart, you have been the cause of a great deal of pain, and continue to do so. This is not Rob's fault, nor the OM's, nor the OMW's. The fault lies with YOU. You have a dark, childish, selfish side (don't we all?) of which I think you are in heavy denial. Nobody here can help you with that - you need proper professional help and support.

Please find a therapist who you cannot seduce. You have great charm and warmth, Jen. It may be both your strength and your trap.

TA

Does not make her super human.


Can't do it. But I won't hang my emotions and reactions to her indescretions on her.


Should she be banished for her mistake?


Well guess what? To bad she is not the diety that we all thought she was. She is human after all just like the rest of us.

Of course all of our hopes and fears are valid. But to hang them all on Jen is turning our hopes and fears into fantasy.

A demi-god one day and demon the next. That is something I could not handle. Can you?


Of course not.

Aph, Sorry. I am busy and this thread is gathering posts at a phenomenal pace.


They don't ALWAYS work. And the evidence for that IS right here. Agreed they are the best, or at least, a strong chance for success. But that is way different than a guarantee. And boil away all the claptrap, it comes down to the fact that BOTH the BS and WS have to WANT it to work.

My tone is cautionary to Kiwi. Mostly for Rob's sake. Personally, I would hate a wife who stayed and faked everything she felt because it was the "right thing to do" or "not to lose face on the board" or ANY reason for that matter. My statement is to get her to examine CLEARLY is Rob really what she wants. We cannot make her love him. Think of him a bit. For what he has done, he deserves the truth. And this extends farther than letting him in on what happened, it includes knowledge of where her heart truly is at.


Not sure I agree. If we entered into an agreement and you broke it to screw me, did not keep up your end of the bargain and hid it from me, or used my good faith in the agreement to put me at a disadvantage... THAT kind of stuff is not ethical. But if we make an agreement that after time turns out to be NOT what we expected and one of us decides to exit the agreement, well, that is why there are exit clauses in so many things. It is not the breaking itself that is unethical, but the manner in which it is done.

I don't condone what she did. But she did it. The only useful discussion at this point is what next. My opinion - some serious soul searching. Because if she CANNOT keep the agreement, that needs to be aired now than continuing such a disservice. And it would be to her and H.


I am not advocating an excuse for the behavior. That implies she should be off the hook to some degree. Not what I am postulating.

The principles on this board are great. I used them to the best of my abilities to try and save my marriage. And this is a great place to come to be bouyed up when you need it, etc.

And the board answers the question "Can we?" with a resounding yes. Look at the successes.

It also answers "How do we?" well, too.

But it rarely answers "Should we?" Which is important, too. And one that IMO should NOT be answered here. The statement "That marriage SHOULD end..." requires more insight than this forum allows.

My point is simply this... she needs to be sure. Mistakes like this are unacceptable. It needs to be the LAST and she needs to MEAN it, or she needs to walk. All or nothing time. The pot is stirred. This is the perfect time to answer the question of does she want it, frankly, to save her H ANOTHER painful day later.

In English???

SC, i miss you terrible!!! i need friends today and all that is going on around here is such awful sad stuff!!!

ok, i guess that is always what is going on around here but you know what i mean...

care to say hi over here
you don't even have to read all my rambling!!!

This was an activity to provide entertainment (a pastime) to make better (or improve) her middle life crisis.

I hope that makes it clear

Stanley,
Thanks. Didn't recognize MLC. Ghost... here I come...
--SC

Jen,
Thank you for sharing this. I haven't read everything on the thread but got the jest of it...you accidentally had contact w/ OM and continued contact with a couple meetings and saw him for the jerk he is.

I am glad you had this wake up call. To me it just signals that you are a work in progress...there is no coasting in recovery.

I hope by now you have talked to Rob. I hope you continue to work on your progress. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Thank you for sharing the hard stuff.

Together Alone, do you live in my brain? Cod pyschology? I don't think so. Wow.

I need to take a break from the board for a while.

I need some time in my own head.

Jen:

Not the note I was hoping you'd leave on, if leave is indeed what you're doing.

best,
-ol' 2long

This sentence below from HOOPSIE has stuck in my mind out of
all these many conversations.

It is SO SAD to think Kiwi's huband may not know yet of this latest betrayal.
It is so very Cruel and Sorrowful that he may still be in this state of oblivion. He needs to know. It is the ONLY chance of their marriage surviving...TRUTHFULNESS.

From Hoopsie: "He will feel like a one helluva fool when he finds out that the teeming millions in cyberland have been discussing the betrayal of his marriage while he's snoring obliviously on the couch." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Maybe Rob doesn't care anymore. Maybe Rob is tired of being second best. Maybe Rob doesn't do things around the house or have desire to travel and do exciting things because he is second best. Maybe Rob doesn't care because his wife doesn't break her neck to sneak a peek of him walking his grocery cart down the aisle. Maybe Rob is so tired of the daily walk of being the BS, that he knows and is choosing so what.

Kiwi, that is the perspective of the BH. I'm sorry for your situation that you are in. The longer you wait, the worse it gets, it is an infection, and it gets worse with time not better. You know this.

Well this is exactly right. It doesn't matter to me what KiwiJ does. It is her life and I hope she finds happiness in it. If gemela went for drinks with OM, I hope she would have the decency to tell me that our M was over - because it would be. I am not killing myself in the BS role just to have it all thrown out on a capricious meeting. In my sitch and with my WW, I would want to know and I would want her to start packing her bags. M with me is going to be fun at times and boring at others. If W can't deal with the boring, I need a new W. People tell me that love is a choice. Having fun is a choice too. I had fun cleaning up vomit yesterday. That is because I chose to have fun doing it. Someone who just wants to have fun all the time simply doesn't need to be married.

It is funny how my WW views things now as compared to how she viewed them a few short months ago. When she was in full A, she was like a caged animal in the house. Now she is not. She seems to like the safety of it. And in my WW's case, I KNOW it is a problem of maturity.

Stanley, I think you are quite lucky in some respects. I decided not to read TOW and you should stop. It will twist your mind I think. You keep saying you are not man enough to handle a "real" A. Somehow I seriosuly doubt that. I think you would do just fine although I hope you never have to prove me right.

At some point my WW will have to look at her M and decide if that is the life she wants. Well, okay, the life she wants is probably jet-setting around the globe but she needs to marry someone else to achieve that. I would like an heiress wife who would allow me to quit work and race motorcycles, play golf, etc. but that is not likely either. All I have is gemela and I try to make the best with what I have. If we need to make some adjustments like going zorbing, okay - I'll go. But I will do that knowing I am going to have to clean up even more vomit. Just part of the package.

BTW, I was just going through my emails this AM and I saw a brief period on this tread where someone suggested (or else I incorrectly inferred) that it is Rob's fault for not being more vigilent about where KiwiJ went and that he allowed her to go for her "drinks date". I just simply could not friggin believe that.

Or maybe it is just the we have different concepts of what a "recovered" marriage is and I am assuming Rob believed he was in successful recovery. I will say that I do NOT trust gemela. I may NEVER trust gemela. I won't now for sure until NEVER is actually over and I have died. Then I will post back and let you know the answer.

But I WILL say and I have REPEATEDLY told gemela that I am NOT willing to live my life looking over my shoulder. Living in paranoia - that is not life. That is a living he77. It certainly is NOT marriage - at least not a marriage I want any part of.

I am not recovered (yet). When I doubt gemela about where she has been, she tells me to call and check up on her. I tell her she is missing the point. She STILL does not get it. If I were in Rob's shoes (and I am in a manner of speaking) and I saw my wife get all dressed up in her nicest shoes and best perfume (and I have) to go out on a Friday night and I had to ask her "hey, you aren't by any chance going out to have drinks with the OM are you?", I would file for divorce immediately. I am willing to do a lot of things for my family but I am not willing to sacrifice my self-respect (well - any MORE than I already have) and I am not willing to drive my self to an early grave with anxiety.

Gemela can have all the affairs she wants. Why? Because I can't stop her if she sets her mind that that is what she wants to do. If I find out that she is doing it, she is gone. She knows that. Marriage is not about having affairs. Marriage is about being faithful to the commitment or getting divorced and then finding someone else. It is NOT about shagging the pool boy because life is not quite as exciting as you want and you feel you need a little spice in your life.

My point is that, if Rob needs to be watching over KiwiJ to ensure she does not drop her drawers for OM, Rob doesn't really need to be married to her. It is not his responsibility to keep KiwiJ from having an affair. That is HER responsibility - and apparently one she does not want to accept. Her choice. If she doesn't live up to your expectations, too bad. BTW, there IS NO Santa Claus either. She should, however, tell Rob. To keep it a secret is inexcusable.


One more thing. I, as a BS, was really panicked by this thread at first. Then I realized that my sitch is my own. KiwiJ is not gemela. Some may thin Stanley is hard on KiwiJ. I have no opinion. I will say that if you are a BS and are panciked by KiwiJ's drink date revelation, please read Stanley's posts VERY carefully. He is doing all of us a huge favor. He is reminding us that not all WW's or (F)WW's are alike. KiwiJ may have extenuating circumstances that do NOT apply to our sitches. For that, I am extremely thankful for what Stanley is telling ME. I also have not read TOW. I also do not want to. That would be a little like listening to Linda Blair discuss theology while puking split-pea soup. Gotta consider the source.

Stanley, I find your comment about falling in love with someone else without commiting infidelity rather naive. How on earth is any already married couple meant to know if they are in love if they don't practise some infidelity? There has to be an overlap, some time with the OP in order to get to know them a bit better than saying hello across the room. You said if you fell in love with an OW then you would leave the M, but THAT is not how it works. You would ignore it at first and then it would play on your mind and then you would maybe talk more to the OW and what, you'd know you were in love and decide to divorce Myrta? No, of course not, you hardly know her....and this is why A's are so popular. Most people aren't sure of the OP and so they foster feelings of attraction for the OP living in a twilight zone of neither one thing or the other, and feeding the attraction bit by bit. Then of course the thrill takes hold and feeds the attraction even more. Little bits of contact are presumed innocent by the WS - using their personal judgement, they know it's ok to have coffee with the OP - it's like a fact finding mission. Attraction is so powerful that it covers a multitude of sins, just the way nature intended it to be (ever noticed how you don't feel cold or uncomfortable before an orgasm but you feel it straight after?) I think the same analogy can be applied to attraction in A's - the discomfort of doing wrong is dulled - nature dulls it.

Love isn't even in the equation. The OP is making the WS feel great. Really great. Happy, energetic, positive, alive, attractive, desirable ..... and imo there has to be quite a lot of water under the bridge before the word love is used. Unless the couple are very immature or uneducated.

I also believe that the WW is sexually stimulated by an OM when her H is no longer arousing her. Not his fault. It could be Brad Pit and it wouldn't make any difference. If she is used to having sex with him she will find an OM far more sexually arousing. If she lets the attraction get out of hand that is. I think you are very lucky that Myrta was able to walk away from that. She was using her OM for sexual excitment that she couldn't get with you. You were her wonderful husband - she wanted you too. You for love and comfort and family and him for sex and excitment. It's so weird that we traditionally think of men as being the sleaz bags but I think A's turn women into sleaz bags and it both shocks and delights them.

Anyway poor old Jen eh? Geez you lot have been hard on her. I think she probably wanted the opportunity to drop the exOM. There was maybe a bit of resentment that he wouldn't leave his wife for her and now she had a chance to get even. Nature is very powerful and women are emotional driven beings. Maybe she wanted to be the one to tell him to take a hike. Dangerous game if it was that. But for what it's worth I think she was crazy for telling MBs. If I was willing to do what she did, I would keep it my own business. Unless it was a cry for help. In which case she was very brave.

AN

anyname,

Are you advocating then that having an affair is a good thing in that it lets the WS avoid burning bridges in case the A doesn't pan out? Maybe the WS can keep testing the waters until they get a hit? Gee, and I had been so harsh on my poor WW. I thought she had done something wrong. I really owe her a serious apology - on that planet you are from that is.

Hi anyname

There has to be an overlap, some time with the OP in order to get to know them a bit better than saying hello across the room. You said if you fell in love with an OW then you would leave the M, but THAT is not how it works.

What you advocate here is the freeloader approach to relationships in a marriage : Stay here but continually be on the lookout for a better situation.

That's OK with a house or a job but not, I think , decent within a marriage.

Staying with someone until you find someoene better is sickening selfishness IMO. The thing to do is, work on your marrige. If you aren't happy, divorce and THEN find someone else. Its dreadfully exploitative to stay with someone for comfort while looking for a better situation. Affairs offer temporary excitement that almost never continues on into a relationship , so comparing one's current marriage with an AFFAIR is not a fair comparison.

So the approach you describe doesn't even work very well unless a person wants many affairs to keep the excitement going.

If a marrige isn;t satisfying and can;t be fixed or endured, then divorce and start dating OUTSIDE the excitement of an affair. Thats surely the best way to find along term mate that may be an improvement over your original marriage.

One of the problems I see on this board is that there is (sometimes) far too much supprt for a WS that is actively deceiving her H. Yes, everyone here is saying you should tell... blah, blah, blah... well how about setting the record straight.... Kiwi has knowingly harmed her M yet again. Her actions were planned and required deception. The supermarket was one thing... out of her control... up to the point where she had ANYTHING to say to the OM. As soon as she engaged in conversation... she set her M back years... she intentionally harmed her H... and yet there is so much support for her here... well, I say poor Rob. The poor man has no idea that his W is about to rip his heart out again. He has no idea that what he most likely considers a good life... she considers to be a bore.... Kiwi sounds like an immature woman that needs the thrill of creating chaos in order to be happy.
This has nothing to do with your inability to completely give yourself to Rob. It has everything to do with a lack of morals, character and integrity on your part. The day that you tell your H about what happened and let him decide how he wants to handle the lastest "cr@p sandwich" you have laid on the table... is day #1 that you can begin rebuilding your integrity and character. Until you do so, you are deceiving H everyday...each day is a new lie... each day is a betrayal...
I hope that you have found the courage to talk with him....your owe him that much NOW.... TODAY! Failure to do so speaks volumes about your character.
I wish you well... but mostly, I hope your H can recover from this.

I have re read much of this thread and see that there are many here that are right on the money with their take on Kiwis actions. I'm glad that many here have decided to not drink the Kool Aid.

So you are saying that KiwiJ went from being FWW to WW? or, in other words, she got the F outta there. And now you are suggesting that maybe BH should be given the same option? I see...

I cannot determine if you are being sarcastic, obtuse, or deliberately provoking...so I can only answer as if you are being serious.

Yes...she stepped outside her marriage when she went on those 2 dates with the OM. Her H needs to be able to make HIS decision on what to do...and he can only do that if he is given the information that is OWED to him. That information is that she stepped outside the marriage.

There was a payout for her...some kind of emotional payout or she would have NEVER gone on those dates. She could have shot him down right in that store but she didn't because she didn't want to.

He deserves the truth...regardless of how much TV he watches.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

committed

The problem with a BS trying to be vigilent of a WW:

WW is all dressed up and about to head out the door on a Friday Night with no prior announcement of this.

BH: "Honey, you wouldn't be going out to have drinks with the OM would you?"

WW: {(thinking) CHING! He suspects something. Does he know that I was planning to go slug back a couple of G&T's with the pool boy and then head back to his place for some wild s3x? Wait! He never asked me about s3x did he? He only mentioned "drinks". But, if I have - say - coffee, I won't really be "drinking" will I?}

WW: "No"

BH: "Will you be coming home early or late?"

WW: {(thinking) okay this one is not so bad. I don't have to lie at all!}

WW: "I will definitely be cumming later."

BH: "Okay, be careful."

WW: {(thinking) CHING! Now I have to remember to buy a CONDOM!}

WW: "I will."

BH: "Okay, see you later".

WW's are experienced and well-versed liars. You really need to give them a 500 question exam or they will find their way around the issue and never have to tell a "lie".

agreed.

committed,

This whole conversation started on my thread before KiwiJ started her own. If you will go back, I have consistently told her that her top priority was to tell Rob with zero delay or hesitation. Yes I am being serious. KiwiJ is not an FWW. She is a WW. Period. Rob has the right to know that. Right now.

There is NO DOUBT that she is a WS. She has lied to her H, involved OM in their lives again... she is one step away from being on her back with her legs in the air. Radical honesty... anyone remember that! POJA... anyone remember that... I guess Rob said... "sure honey, go have a good time!" NOT. She is a WS.

Then we agree! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

committed

Jen,

I think some part of you is hoping he finds this thread so you don't have to tell him yourself. Am I wrong?

AN:

You took my short sentence in a very literal way. This is what evangelicals do when they read the bible. I was simply saying that it is better to end the marriage and then try a relationship with someone else. As per Bob Pure, I do not advocate falling in love while one is married. I guess I used the term as one would use an idiomatic expression.

I agree, many women use men for SF when they are young and studly looking. However, in our age group women generally fall for men that pay attention to them despite their non-Hollywood looks.

The issue is:

It is far easier to rebuild a marriage when the WW never wanted to leave the marriage. If the WW was determined to leave the marriage then the ball game is more difficult.

Ya know...I don't see any of us that consider Jen a friend, "supporting" her becoming a WW again. We are simply doing what we can to encourage her to come clean with Rob and OMW. That being said, I can't stop being her friend because she screwed up. I won't support her actions but I will still love her.

Do you know if Jen lied to her BS before she went to meet the OM for drinks Friday night. Where did she say she was going or where did she say she had been? OR didn't it come up. Obviously, a lie of omission if it didn't come up and her H never noticed anything.

Did you lie to your H initially, Jen? Just curious, how you convinced yourself to do that?

I know I'd want to know where my H was going or why he was late on a Friday evening. If she out right lied...then that will only compound the problem.

Anyway, you need to fess up to your husband about what has happened.

I think some WS's dont understand the extent of the pain that they have caused and what renewed contact causes, until they are faced with loosing their spouse themselves.. its one thing to read about, its a whole different ball game being faced with the pain that the BS has suffered.

I do know thats how it was with me, in a way i am grateful that it has happened to me, i think i would have taken it too lightly had it not happened to me. Was a lesson i had to learn. Cant appreciate something if you have never been faced with loosing it.. my two cents..

Jen, you were one of the first who posted to me, to show me kindness...

Because of the severety of the damage done to me and my daughter by someone who put their own selfish desires ahead of my sanity, safety and ability to make reasonable, sane choices I can not, will not remain a friend to someone who will not show the most basic of human kindness to another human being as to be honest with them.

The sick feeling in the pit of my stomach grows stronger each day you do not come back here and let us know that you have discussed this with Rob.

I don't know if it is that we all have been so badly hurt by secrets/lies and betweens, that this is like a great big punch in the groin...you not telling him yet.

I know that something is going on with you that you would have slipped back into WW mode, but everyday you stay there is worse for Rob and the damage becomes greater.

I know that had you discussed this with him by now you would be here looking for support/help, so I can only guess you have not. You see the pain done to all our friends here by their WS secrecy/darkness and I just don't understand.

I am thinking of you and praying that you are moving towards living in integrity once again.

Would you tell Rob if you had the chance???

And, yes, you can stop being someone's friend when they are intentionally acting in an immoral and deceitful way. It is my opinion that to remain friends with someone when they are acting like this is inviting this crap into your own life. Would you remain friends with a wife abuser? A child molestor? A murderer? It is my opinion that she is abusing her H and children in one of the worst ways possible. Now, that's a good friend to have.

I applaud you. I also pray that she finds her way and that her H comes through this whole and not crushed.

Yes, I would tell Rob AND the OMW given the chance. I can still gently admonish and encourage Jen. Turning your back on someone does not help them. Should I have turned my back on my H while he was lying and cheating? Really, what happened to hate the sin but love the sinner? Christ calls me to that and to take the plank out of my own eye before taking the splinter out of my brother's eye.

Really, what would be accomplished by everyone turning their back on someone who is messed up in their thinking but WANTING to find their way back. What happened to being the lighthouse?

Weaver, I love you my dear friend but think about it. You can choose your friends that is your right...but where would you be if you were judged and discarded by your friends?

I can't handle dishonesty, someone elses dishonesty almost destroyed me, my daughters mother. I won't tolerate dishonesty in any friend of mine.

And I wouldn't want a friend who would tolerate it in me. I want my friends to judge me if I am hurting another human being. I count on them for that.

I value marriage more than most of you can ever understand, given that I have never been married...and I value people, their sanity, and their right to make choice regarding that sanity more than life itself.

So I will judge her, until she allows her husband his right to dignity and sanity.

We were all undestanding in the beginning of this thread, because nobody doubted that she would talk to him soon...and this is the point where the understanding changes.

I have intentionally stayed out of this because I don't have enough experience with Jen personally to offer either any helpful support, but this statement is something I have said myself and then had come back to bite me in the butt. Can I humbly offer a little personal perspective?

Like I said, this was an exact duplication of something I once said to someone I considered a very good friend. She had betrayed me beyond belief, but I told her TO HER FACE that I wasn't going to stop being her friend just because she messed up. I wasn't going to stop loving her.

Four and a half months after that, I completely broke off that friendship. Why? Because my friend continued to remain in that "screwed up" state. She continued to lie, she crossed boundaries, and she remained in self-preservation mode at all costs, no matter how many people she hurt. She may have stopped the one destructive behavior that caused the original betrayal, but she continued in other behaviors that caused the same amount of pain for me and others I loved. I gave her every chance to stop, to turn away from the unloving things she was doing, but she continued. So I ceased being her "friend". I stopped offering moral and emotional support. I stopped "being there" for her, because to me it seemed that all she wanted was someone to tell her that it was going to be okay, no matter how awfully she was behaving, that I'd still be there for her to continue to stomp all over.

I was enabling her.

Do I still "love" her? Well, yes and no. I do not love her as a person anymore, because I have seen no evidence of fruits of the Spirit in her, and that is very important to me PERSONALLY to see in people I consider my closest friends. However, I do still love her soul, and I pray for her daily, even if she was half of the reason hers and my marriages have gone so horribly wrong. But any love I have for her soul is independent of my taking a stand against her behavior--I will NOT offer my support to someone who makes a conscious decision to remain in a state that is harmful to others.

I'm not saying that's what is happening here, but does there come a time when we stop offering support if someone refuses to do what they KNOW is right and necessary? Truly, I'm not meaning to offend or call anyone out personally. Not even Kiwi.

If you want to bring religion into this fine...

Abhor that which is evil Romans 12:9

I do not see where Kiwi wants to find her way back. She KNOWS the way back and is ignoring her duty. She is actively harming her family. Period. Messed up in her thinking is one thing... harming her family is another.

So, where do you draw the line? Child molestor? Murderer? Where do you say that person has values that are not reflective of who I would call a friend. If they repent, then that is another story. But she is actively sinning in the worst way for her family.

This could be a catalyst which brings Jen and her BS closer together, or it could be the catalyst which destroys her marriage.

I believe that to delay in talking to him about this will hurt the marriage worse.

So at first glance it looked like a slip-up, now it looks like deliberate withholding of information to manipulate.

I hope I am wrong. I usually can see the good in all situations, but it is getting harder to see the good in this.

And if Jen had not shown me kindness, and I didn't care about her, I wouldn't even be on this thread...so I think I am being a pretty good friend by voicing my honest opinion about her not telling him, and how friendship until this has been done is not going to happen.

I'm sorry Faith, but this little thing about willfull ongoing dishonesty is where I draw the line in any friendship.

Her husband may not be as strong as some of our friends on the board who have lived though this kind of thing...what then?

I posted the other day something I strongly believe "behind very grievance is a miracle", so lets remove the grievance (the ongoing secrecy) and find the miracle.

Hey Jen, what say you?

Weaver ... I am right there with you ... I guard MY friendships ... and I put up a fence to keep liars and cheats OUT of my space until they are no longer liars and cheats.

Why?

because this sort of person forces an acceptance of dangerous and unsavory behavior ... UNTIL they renounce the behavior and make ammends.



I get what you are saying ... YOU have learned this particular lesson the REALLY HARD WAY ...

Hang tough Weaver, YOUR fences are very IMPORTANT...

Pep

AND

Weaver

YOUR safety & protection within your friendship circle is MORE important than attempts to rescue someone who continues to make bad choices.

You've come a long way Weaver... I am truely impressed!

Pep

AND

anyone with a current shakey marriage situation ... in the EARLY tenuous recovery years

ought to monitor their support efforts for Kiwi's situation and concentrate on their OWN back yard !

Why?

Because every minute/hour/day/week you spend trying to support a marriage outside your own is STEALING from YOUR family!

Think I am wrong?

Ask your family... "Would you like me to spend less time on the phone or on the computer trying to help a woman on another continent, and instead spend more time with you?"

It is easier to support Kiwi, in some instances, than do your own Marital recovery Work.

time for tough love people

pep

I am not out of hope yet that the right thing will be done, and perhaps is being done right now.

But I am worried. Silence is very telling. Still, I hope Jen will be back for support to earn back her F, with or without her BH.

This is sad, but such an opportunity for discussion with all the FWS's out there, because it brings up an important point about the importance of life-long NC, and gives them a chance to discuss it before it happens to them. Forewarned is forearmed, and I hope this warning to strengthen the walls around the marriage keeps some of the our dear FWS's from going down the same road.

It has occured to me that Jen did an incredibly brave thing to put this on the Board for a complete bashing. I wouldn't be surprised if other WS's have done the same thing but kept it to themselves.

Weaver, all my friends have done things that have disappointed me at some stage. Two had abortions, more than one had an affair (including one who had the most comfortable life I might add), one you could not trust to keep a secret, one took drugs, one sold her island!

Nobody is perfect. In one way or another these people have all played a part in my life and I consider their friendship of great value.

IMO, it would be better to say nothing than to infer that you are currently not Jen's friend. Sounds like the stuff I hear in the school playground everyday. Just seems quite mean.

Jen may have set a strange precedent here! Will any FWS ever admit additional contact again - I doubt it!

Kiwi has said she is going to tell her husband and that she is terrified. I believe the silence tells us she has done just that. I think that would take precedence over coming here and telling the rest of us what's going on. I would worry more if she was here after just telling her BS.

I am still hoping and, to the extent that I do these things, praying for Jen and her husband.

Jen, if you're reading, please talk to him if you haven't already.

For all the others, I think Pep has an excellent point about taking care of your own marriages before coming here.

And surely there are some here who know how to contact Rob. If it were your own marriage, would you want to know?

Make sure you can do so ethically and compassionately -- and if you can, well, it might be time.

You know that you risk the friendship by doing something like that, of course. So one of the considerations is how you can help the most. Choose carefully.

Jen, you have my support. Please, be honest with Rob. Not just about the other man, but about all the other things that threaten to destroy your marriage. Be clear about what you need, consistent in your approach, gentle with your loved ones, and unflinching in your honest evaluation of yourself and your situation.

You can make it.

and how many BW and BH have been harmed by trusting the WRONG person?

Pep

Why does this have to be seen as a deterrent to confession? Why can it not be seen instead as a deterrent to CONTACT????

I wish people would quit calling purposeful contact with the affair partner a "mistake"... a mistake is adding too much salt to the soup... a poor choice is going on a secret rendevous with someone other than your spouse.

I am horribly disturbed by what's happened here... and how lives hang in the balance. One in particular. Rob. And I don't even know the man.

I also feel awful for Jen, though as I've said, I don't know her well at all. She was always wise, kind to me, and fun to join in threads... this Jen does not seem to be that Jen. That's also sad.

I would like to add something I've recently learned: It's about "nice" and "compassion"... they are not interchangable words. Having compassion for someone, especially someone you love, may mean that you BACK AWAY and let them deal with the consequences of their own choices - good, bad and ugly. I'm sure many parents know this only too well...

Jen doesn't need to be beat up, she's doing it herself, I'm sure... and she doesn't need someone rescueing her... she needs to sit in the situation she's chosen and deal with the hard uglies of it. Most of us understand this, as well. I know I do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We can never know Jen's motivation for posting her story of renewed contact with OM unless and until she shares it with us. While some may praise her courage for coming forth and sharing with the MB community, the sad fact remains that she still has not told the person who deserves to know the most - her husband. In that sense, coming here for support instead of telling Rob was a cop out.

Affairs are a sultry mix of sex, love, lust, lies, deception and secrets. What bothered me the most of these was the deception that my WW lived for over four years. Jen is guilty of deception again. The only way to stop the deception is to tell Rob and let the chips, that she put into motion, fall where they may.

And BTW, Jen is not victim in this sitch. She willingly met OM for coffee and then drinks. The victims are Rob and their family.

"hard uglies"

good one

thanks NBII

.... adding to my list....

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My post saying I would not be friends with someone who was knowingly harming another person was in response to another poster saying that they would support their friends.

I do not liken drug use, stupid choices, hard choices, etc to deceiving a man who has already been hurt beyond belief. Hurting yourself is not the same as hurting another.

I will not support dishonesty, period! Dishonesty destroys people, and of this I will have no part and will not support.

If we will not hold each other accountable to this standard, then who will? We who have all been through it and learned so much.

What have we learned if we have not learned that LIES DESTROY people.

What has been the whole point? Jen knows this, she knows this, she knows this...she is better then this and I will not support it, for her sake as well as her husbands.

I say all this on Jen's thread right out in the open, as I would to her face. And as we all grow increasingly more uneasy, the posting gets increasingly more emotional.

Because we care.

This is a community, and such is how it goes in communities.

Oh yikes, that was emotional. I think I'll remove myself from this thread...blood pressure going up.

She may, as someone else said, have already come clean.

What a sad effin week in MB land.

Kiwi, I haven't posted here in awhile because I have been focusing upon my own M and children, but let me offer you words of support. You helped me tremendously reading some of your posts when I was at some of my lowest points. Your situation could have just as easily been any of us who are FWS. Please don't give up on yourself; mistakes happen but I believe they are recoverable. I am here, praying for you, letting you know I believe you will head in the best direction

I don't think I agree with that. It sounds very supportive, but I don't think it's necessarily true.

Lori

Bob I was just arguing with Stanley's logic. he'd made the statement a few times in the last few months and I decided to take it to its logical conclusion. If a person has the brains to work on their M instead of "falling in love" with someone else, then there wouldn't be a site like this. And you don't "fall in love" with someone else unless you put a bit of time and infidelity into it. Most cases of infidelity are not about love anyway.

TT great comment from you. How many WSs keep the odd NC under their belt? I was curious to know what KJ stood to gain from telling us what she did? Not like many of us would sympathise... understand.....be happy about it? I can only imagine that she wanedt to have the last laugh. "none so queer as folk".

AN

Weaver said:



Simple..yet eloquent communication of what I was attempting to say on that other scary thread yesterday...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My husband did the same thing as kiwi. Several times, the same OW.
He told me that if he had made an obvious effort to turn and walk away from her, she would have enjoyed knowing that she had such a negative impact on our marriage.

I told him, well she did.

My dad died last year. During a period of his life, there was a man he knew who caused considerable emotional and financial damage to my family. This man showed up at Dad's funeral and approached my mother to offer his condolences.
My mother, with the greatest economy of effort rose from her chair, looked coolly through this man and very quietly and distinctly said, "Please excuse me." Her back was straight and her head was held high, as with great dignity she left the room.



I think your idea to wait to tell your husband is perfectly calculated. The man will obviously see that you are "upset" at this point, he will have had time to prepare himself, he will see your remorse even before you have told him.

I feel a little sick now.

I am hoping to not be hearing any more
confessions soon from 'heirloom' MB advisors. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I do give Kiwi credit for confessing here at MB.
She COULD HAVE KEPT IT A SECRET from us as well as
from her H and went right on advising others.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


crimsonrose, your mom sounds like she has a
lot of charisma and handled the situation with class!

Jen, this is still "all about you." Your husband is an afterthought, another thing you can use to get what you want. I commend you for "putting on the breaks," but that you are sorely in need of some personal Standards that are unwaivering is evident.

You came as close to being involved again as any addict is to "just trying a little" of their former drug of choice and NOT getting right back into the destructive behavior and addiction. You already "justified" each contact, just like any addict.

It is TIME for you to not only tell your husband about your "close call," but to put in Extraordinary Precautions.




Jen, if these "reservations" are real and not just WW "rationalizations", you should not be married. Plain and simple, you are NOT your own anymore. You belong to your husband and he belongs to you.

Either you CHOOSE "no reservations" right now, and forever, or you get a divorce.

You are either "all in" or you not. Marriage IS an "all in," "forsaking ALL others," "until death do us part"...CHOICE.

No one, and I mean no one, "Forced" you to marry and no one forced your husband to forgive you and attempt to recover from the worst nightmare that can be visited upon a marriage by the willing CHOICE of one of the marriage partners.

If there are any "reservations," don't bother telling your husband about this latest contact because contact WILL happen again and you WILL justify it again. I'll give it to you straight, from one man who has suffered through MANY contacts by his FWW....."slips" are forgiveable and recovery can start again, but ANY hint of not being truly and totally committed, WITHOUT RESERVATIONS, is a "deal breaker." NO MAN (and I assume the same holds true for women) is going to remain married to someone who does NOT drop ALL "ties to the past" for him and fully commit to "you and only you for the rest of my life, no matter what I might be feeling."

Jen, you suffer from the same problem that my wife has suffered from. You put someone else, the OM or YOURSELF, as "more important" than how your husband feels. That, alone, "justifies" in your mind that contact of any sort is "okay" because you are NOT restarting the affair.

Addicts cannot play that game. Oh, they can, but then they wind up losing all that IS truly dear to them.

How many times do you want to "tempt fate?"

How often do you want to tell God that He is wrong and you are right?

Jen, you have no choice, no real choice anyway. You must tell your husband. The choice to remain in recovery or to divorce is his. You already made your choice AND you "still have reservations about giving myself totally to Rob." You don't deserve Rob if you don't commit and you don't "come clean."

If you do, you will be casting yourself upon Rob's ability to forgive you AND remain married to you. He won't choose remaining married unless you do "give yourself completely to him."

As is often said around here...."The CHOICE is yours." Love IS a choice and an action verb.

"Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house...."

Choose wisely Jen.

KiwiJ, how are you?

KiwiJ (and others):

I hope you're reading here from time 2 time. If so, I'd like 2 point you 2 a particularly relevant and inspirational post by still forever hers:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#3013132

It speaks for itself.

-ol' 2long

great post!