I'm having the worst day of my life, I talked to OMW
she confronted him, he told my WW now I'm the bad guy

what to do now?
should I say anything?
should I say sorry I had to do it?
should I not say anything?
she told me it's been over for long time why did you do that?
I said OMW needed to know to work on her own marriage.
she said he will always be my friend, I said friends don't sleep together,she said it hapenes every day, i told her it doesn't make it any better.

should I say anything tonight, or just give it time?

should I tell her that i do care for her and I 'm losing the best thing that ever happened to me?

should I tell her that I'm comited to our marriage and I will do whatevr it takes to save it?

or all this is a wait of time now?
any suggestion is apreciated
Pleeeeeeeese hellllllllp.

Just sit back and watch the fireworks.

That sounds oversimplistic..but I'm serious.

Don't try to pacify or explain or defend.

She'll be mad..the pressure is now on..don't take anything she says seriously or personally.

Ask her if she wants pizza or hamburgers for dinner and what she wants to watch on TV. Otherwise, don't sweat it. She will get over it. OMW had every right to know she was screwing her H.

Don't let her bait you into any fights and don't apologize or rationalize what you did.

p.s. CALM DOWN

Have you exposed at the church yet? Has the OM been relieved of his position there? If not, I would move forward and expose to the church board so he is removed. He should not be in any position of authority in that church.

Hard as it is to believe, it will blow over. She is scared. You are threatening her addiction. She is behaving like a junkie whose supply has been cut off.

For now, just remain quiet. Do expect anger and threats. Let the roll off like water on the duck's back.

I'm having the worst day of my life, I talked to OMW
she confronted him, he told my WW now I'm the bad guy

no

now you're the tough MAN

not the bad guy

bad guys screw other men's wives ... that ain't you!

what to do now?

go have some fun recreational activity

go bowling

go fishing

do something away from the house

should I say anything?

no

should I say sorry I had to do it?

no

should I not say anything?

"I'm going bowling. See you in a few hours. Can I bring you anything from the store on my return?"

she told me it's been over for long time why did you do that?

blah blah blah


I said OMW needed to know to work on her own marriage.

just like a strong MAN would say ... not an [censored] bad guy ... which you ain't

she said he will always be my friend,

she full of bovine feces right now
don't take anything she says seriously

I said friends don't sleep together,

use the words infidelity and adultery when talking to her about this ... avoid the word "affair" which has been romanticized

she said it hapenes every day, i told her it doesn't make it any better.

you can respond to stupidity if you like ... but if you just stare silently at her you will not make yourself look weaker in her eyes.... stare at her when she says nonsense, then offer to make her a cup of tea

should I say anything tonight, or just give it time?

say nothing ... but if you say one thing, make it this

"Adultery is always ugly & painful for all involved, don't you agree?"

should I tell her that i do care for her and I 'm losing the best thing that ever happened to me?

H
E
L
L
N
O

should I tell her that I'm comited to our marriage and I will do whatevr it takes to save it?

too early ... she's hopping mad ... wait until she's human <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


any suggestion is apreciated
Pleeeeeeeese hellllllllp.

go do something physical & fun

seriously

but no drinking

stay calm

stay focused

show her a man who will not back down from a fight for his marriage

Pep

The next few days will be tough. I would suggest you continue to do what you normally do and refrain from LB'ing during this time. She will hate you for a while and make you feel like crap so don't appologize for doing it. You did it to save the M!

The first few days is the worst and them she will slowly start to calm down. You need to be strong during this time.

Keep posting so we know how you are doing.

HTW

21, for Pete's sake...ALL wayward spouses go ballistic when they find out they've been exposed. They will say they can't trust (you) anymore...how COULD you betray them this way...they were going to work on the marriage but not now--no way. They'll tell you the OP was just a friend and now you've ruined everything. What did the OP do to deserve this...etc., etc.

Peace, pardner. You've started exposing this obscene thing for what it is and that's excellent. Don't be dismayed by her reaction. Keep exposing her adultery to everyone who can put some pressure on the adultery.

just like ISGirl said, she is behaving like a junkie. Just imagine that you have just taken the crack pipe from the crack addict. It is all for her best interest, but she is mad as ******.

It will all blow over, so don't pay any mind to her rants, raves and multitude of threats. Calm down, smile sweetly and pat her on the head. Tell her "sorry you feel so bad, dear, hope you feel better tomorrow." SMILE

Joe,

"what to do now?" Hug and congratulate yourself. You did a really scary thing, sharing truth where there was darkness.

"should I say anything?" Stay quiet, listen and repeat...and know you did the right thing.

"should I say sorry I had to do it?" Are you sorry for doing the right thing? Are you sorry for exposing truth? Are you sorry for not participating in the deceit any longer, as you were keeping the affair hidden from OMW?

"she told me it's been over for long time why did you do that?
I said OMW needed to know to work on her own marriage.
she said he will always be my friend, I said friends don't sleep together,she said it hapenes every day, i told her it doesn't make it any better."

How about listen and repeat? "I hear you say the sleeping together part of your affair has been over a long time now."

"I hear you say he will always be your friend...that as long as you have contact with him, you're choosing to continue your A, is that correct?"

"I hear you believe that because married people cheat and destroy their marriages every day that makes it okay with you, is that correct?"


"should I say anything tonight, or just give it time?"

Until you can listen and repeat with choice...breath deeply, settle yourself, know your power of choice and respect, which is what you are exercising, then no, I wouldn't say much...that's why putting that hopper on your head, concentrate on listening instead of negating, and do not let those statements enter your lovely mind until you know they are her truths, not yours, and not The Truth.

"should I tell her that i do care for her and I 'm losing the best thing that ever happened to me?"

Why? Your very presence says you care for her; she knows of your love and your care...you have demonstrated, stated and acknowledged...why not share yourself, instead?

"Boy, telling OMW was really frightening. I was trembling when I did it...I know how much it hurts, just jabs inside, and I knew I was a messenger doing that, sharing the truth."

"should I tell her that I'm comited to our marriage and I will do whatevr it takes to save it?" Haven't you already?

"or all this is a wait of time now?" Active Plan A...more exposure...check on pastor, etc...

You did a brave and true thing...rejoice...you stopped betraying someone who was being manipulated by lies by omission.

LA

PS.... If you haven't came clean with everything that you know to the Pastor, TODAY, is the day to do that.... It's kind of like SHOCK and AWE, but if you let things keep dribbling out then you begin to loose affect......

The hardest thing you will have to do is to keep hold of your emotions, your anger, and your tongue.

Keep a phrase in your mind as your mantra: "I'm staying silent to save my marriage." when things get heated.

You can do this. Come here and vent, but keep the lip zipped! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BINGO! Get the rest of your exposures done NOW. Better to deal with one large blow up than several dribs. The affairees can handle one leak in the DAM, they won't be able to control several. Let this be a TSUNAMI of TRUTH against the AFFAIR!

Ya did very good, 213! As BobPure would say, I changed to a KNIGHT from a SERF the day I exposed. You are now a KNIGHT!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DO NOTHING....for now.

You didn't expect a medal for this did you? You swat a hornet's nest and you will be stung (to be expected)...but at least you have taken some steps to rid yourself of this affair. You should expect her to say it is "over" and that she hates you and that she will divorce you now for doing this.

A word to the wise...IF SHE DOESN'T say any of that...then you have problems.

Remember, the opposite of love is NOT hate...it is indifference.

Lem

Don't panic. You did exactly the right thing. All WS go ballistic when exposed. Yours will too, but she will also learn new respect for you as a man instead of the doormat she's been treating you as.

Good for you. You will not regret doing this. Just do NOT let her anger scare you. Do NOT!
Mulan

Thank's guys oh my god I just sat down on the computer to see all of these replies is a great feeling.

this is what happened after that.

OM went to pastor and confesed , pastor called me up,
he told the school principle, she is supposed to talk to my WW.
I called WW told her what happened she said why did you do this see what you did, I told her I didn't do anything its her actions that did that not mine,
she said now we have to take the kids out of that great school, I said this is youre choice.blablabla.

one more concerne I called her mom trying to get some help she got mad at me and told me not to call her anymore,that this is her daughter and she didn't want to get involved.
and if i'm so hurt why don't I leave, I told her I will never abandon the kids.

I told her I'm sorry you feel this way I thought I was part of the family, I do have a lot of respect and love for you and I will not call back,Fine she said.
oh well.

Ho-hum - the family usually rallies around their affairee. Don't worry about it.

You did great, 213. So sorry about your MIL. Sadly, many people don't know right from wrong and just don't give a damn. Don't let it bother you. You did the right thing for the right reasons. The shame is on them.

And yes, you should take your children out of that school. Your W has to end all contact with the OM and your kids should not ever be around him again. In fact, she should tell the kids WHY. She needs to tell them about her affair since they have been dragged into this mess. [Dr. Harley addressed this very issue on his show today and advised someone to do this very thing]

But don't do anything right now except be pleasant and let the chips fall where they may. Don't let her bully you, though. And don't allow her to drag you into any fights. She will try and bait you into fights and make you the bad guy so just be prepared for that. Don't fight, don't debate and don't apologize. And don't try to reason with her, it will be useless. Just tell her over and over "sorry you are so upset, dear, I hope you feel better soon." SMILE and then leave the room.

You are good and brave, 213, and have stood up for your family today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

21, expecting support from the in-laws is a crapshoot at best. The cliché is blood is thicker than water but it became a cliché because it’s true. Don’t sweat it.

Now, where can you expose this adultery yourself? Like the others have said, now’s a great time to get busy.

This should be YOUR CHOICE. You are their father and the only one who is protecting their interests right now. Unless the OM is removed, I would yank them out of there. And make sure the board understands why you had to do it.

Thank you guys for the support and the advice.

Oh one more thing I don't think that she would talk to me
about this or anything else, she always uses the silent treatment when she want to punish me.

so I'm not worried about saying anything to her.
oh one more thing OMW told me that this is OM 2nd time
she saw him kissing one of the teachers a few years back, at midnight in a parking lot and this put a stop to that affair, she said it was not physical yet, and she found out on time.
I told my wife that she is the 2nd one, she said I don't belive you, call his wife I said.
was that an LB?
and the teacher is her best friend should I give her the Identity of that person?

Absolutely not! That is good that you said that. Just be REAL CAREFUL about what you say about the OM, though. It is ok to state a fact like you did, but don't trash him. If you trash him [and believe me, he deserves to be trashed] she will come to his defense. You don't want that.

So, if she gives you the silent treatment, let her be. Don't let her manipulate you. Just be cool, calm and content. Go about your life as if nothing has happened. You are Mr. Cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

YES!! Tell her now.

Post deleted by 213601

Have you read about lovebusters? Go read this article about lovebusters, especially about disrespectful judgements.

Right now it will be REAL IMPORTANT to not lovebust her. Once contact is ended with the OM, she is going to go into withdrawal. You need to be seen as an attractive alternative. That means no lovebusters.

Does she like it when you make sure she has cash? That might be a good opportunity to fill her lovebank. If so, then you should continue to do it.

Lovebusters: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

withdrawal: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

213,

You are doing a great job exposing this sleazy affiar. Do not be intimidated by your WW. I was in a similar postion to you when I exposed my WW's affair and she tried many of the same tactics (i.e silent treatment and treats). Don't back down and don't appologize for doing the right thing.

Families usually side with the WS and they will try to justify the affair as well. Don't worry about that.

Your WW will try to manipulate you now so it's important that you stand your ground. Don't let the threats and tactics scare you into backing down. The A is WRONG and you did the RIGHT thing by speaking the TRUTH by EXPOSING. It took a tremendous amount of courage to do what you did. I'm sure you feel confused and scared right now, however you have regained control and in the months to come you will realize you did the right thing.

Expect plenty of babble over the next few days so you may want to read up on Orchid's signature threads on reverse babble. It's the most effective way of dealing with fog babble.

You did good and I can't stress enough that you shouldn't feel bad about what you did. You stood up for your family and the sleaziness of adultery. Well done my frined!

Yes, since this is part of Plan A, however do not enable her A by doing things like watching the kids while she goes out with OM.

You sonund much like me last year when I was worried about everything being a LB'er. Don't worry so much and stand up for what is right.


This is not bad and is the type of reverse babble that you need engage your WW in. Again, don't worry so much about LB'ing since I get the feeling you are trying very hard to be NICE to your WW.

Remember your emotions are controllable you have control over them they don't have control over you.... You have to think seriously of your WW as being a your wifes body and a trout head blabbing away with piss and vinegar.... its not real its meant to sting you, your heart your soul...

she knows the only way to get you to back down to back off of her fantasy is either appease or torment you. What happens is like a child caught in a lie, they will spin 180 degrees if they feel they are not getting what they want... first they will say your a mean mean person.. if you sit there and smile and reverse babble and don't get triggered, they will flip and say things like I love you but not in love with you and how am i suppose to feel... blah blah blah...

I am going through this right now

Stay strong Stay confident and stay on target... remember this is a multi-month multi-year operation its not going to change overnight.

I was feeling really good after I read all these replies thank you guys.

Then I got home watched a movie with the kids put them in bed,
Told WW I was going out for a while and I will stop by the store
To get an item we needed.
Why so late are you going to tell more people about this? She said
No I just need some fresh air.
She said you promised you wouldn’t tell OMW why did you do that?
I said you promised you weren’t going to sleep with him anymore and he is just
A friend and you broke your promise first; I never said that she said.
I know I should have stopped talking.
But I couldn’t stop myself; I told her I was tired of being a doormat
And I did what I thought is right and I don’t feel bad about it.
She said I hate you, I don’t want to see you’re face anymore.

And I only treat the kid’s bad when you are around me; I’m fine when you’re not
Around, I told her don’t blame me for you’re own relation with the kids,
She said I’m not blaming you I’m telling you how I feel.

And you’re the one that was not affectionate all these years,
She is right you know I know this is the truth it’s not the fog,

Then it hit me.

It’s over I lost all the hope right then,
And I asked myself why would she want to come back to me?
She thinks I’m a jerk I never gave her affection, I know I’ve changed
But how am I going to prove it to her especially when she doesn’t want anything
To do with me?
I think I’ve been in denial all this time, I know I took her love for granted
Now I’m paying for it, it’s my entire fault, and I ‘m suffering for it.

I should tell her that she is absolutely right and I have no right to ask her to work on
Our marriage since I was the one that caused the problem, and I do love her
With all my heart but I should let her go, at least one of us will be happy.

I feel hopeless and scared I don’t know what to do.

HELLLLLLP.

213, let's not lose perspective here. Sure, there were marital problems before the affair, but you are only 50% responsible for them. Lets not allow her to turn this around and make you the bad guy, ok?

So, your marriage was not great beforehand. That does not mean it can't be great in the future. That is the entire goal of Plan A. Its goal is to demonstrate that you CAN have a good marriage in the future.

So, emphasize to her that you agree your marriage was not good in the past, but that that marriage is DEAD. You want to have a GREAT marriage and you know you can if you both work hard at it.

Now, she will not accept that now because she does not WANT to accept that. She wants to shift the blame TO YOU. But, this means that you don't try to convince her with WORDS, but you convince her with ACTIONS. And after awhile she will catch on.

What you must do in the meantime is set the stage PROPERLY so that recovery can take place. That means you bust up this affair and strive for her to END ALL CONTACT. She must end all contact with this man, even if it means removing your children. If there is still contact, she won't withdraw from the OM.

So, work on that right now and work on doing your best to fill her needs. That latter will be next to impossible until contact ends, though.

This is far, far from hopeless, my friend, so do not despair. We will tell you when it is time to throw in the towel, and you ain't even CLOSE yet.

You do not HAVE to fight for this marriage

but even if you choose O U T

you still should consider learning better marital skills right now

might as well practice on this wife, right?

whatever you are incapable of doing in this marriage ... you carry that lack of skill into your future relationships

you still owe it to yourself to gain experience at better communication

Pep

Man, do you always talk in circles??? Would you believe the same line of crap from a drug addict that is high??? An alcoholic who is drunk???

Yes, you did contribute to the state of your marriage pre A, so did your WW, but your WW made the choice, the conscious decision to have an A instead of talking to you and getting counseling or a D. So, make no mistake the A is her doing not yours, she is 100% responsible for the A, NOT YOU!

Now if a drug addict or an alcoholic was asking you why you flushed their drugs or poured their alcohol down the toilet what would you say??? Would you beat yourself up as you have done here??? I think not! The same holds true for your exposure. You have done the right thing here, DO NOT LET HER MAKE YOU FEEL GUILTY FOR EXPOSURE.

Do not ever forget this! It is never wrong to fight for your marriage and your family! It is definitely wrong to destroy or enable someone who is destroying your family and marriage!

Think about it!

That was a BAD PROMISE. Tell her you made a bad promise. And the only thing worse than making a bad promise is keeping a bad promise.

I just wanted to pipe in and say, don't put yourself down. If she says something to you about your problems, and you feel she is correct, acknowledge them and your willingness to work on them. But everyone has faults, you are responible for yours, she is responsible for hers. Each of you needs to own that part and be willing to work on your share. It sounds to me she has her share to work on so don't be so willing to give up. Fight for your marriage if you feel it's worth fighting for. The investment you have put over the years isn't trivial to consider throwing away.

thanks guys I don't fel bad for exposing the A,
I don't feel responsible for her A but I'm responsible for the pre A problem.
this woman loved me like nobody else did and I took it for granted.
we talked about her ending contact with OM at this point
for her it's out of the question.


School will be out soon it doesn't matter if she wants to see him she will, I'm counting on OM wife to try on her side, she already succeded in having him confes to his pastor and seek counceling, so my best bet for NC is going to be the OM side, I will still try to do my part, but she is refusing right now, that's why I'm so down ans hopless.

I don't know nothing anymore.
should I back of for a while?

Response: Yes and when we got married, you promises in front of God and others to forsake all others till death do us part...what happened to your promise?

guy - let me add my voice to those who have already told you that you did the right thing.

Stand tall and proud.

Do not cower to her.

Do not argue with her about what has taken place the last few days. Do not lower yourself into her cess pool by trying to defend your actions to her. No defense is needed.

....for now.

This is a 100% predictable position for her - for the time being.

Do not react to it because it is temporary.

Think long range. Do not react to every current in her river.

Think
long
range.

OK?

Like WAT and Melody have said. Be proud of what you've done and apologize for no part of it. Regret only that you did not do it earlier and to more people.

21, all wayward spouses "rewrite history" in order to justify the incredibly selfish and cruel betrayals they have done. It's how they trick their core of basic honesty most of us have inside us to guide us through life. If they don’t subvert that essential bit of integrity, they couldn’t do the things they do to their marriage, their spouses and children, their extended family and ultimately, to themselves.

Unfortunately, looking back, many betrayed spouses see things they could have done better in their marriages. Fed by their wayward spouse's constant barrage of rewritten history, some betrayed ones come to believe they are primarily at fault for most/all problems in the marriage. That feeling is as false as the rewritten wayward version of the marital history.

I suggest you lay aside the feelings that you’ve been wrong all along. First, they aren't true and second, this is not the time to deal with those problems. The right time will come when your wayward wife agrees to NC, goes through withdrawal, and sees everything in a better light. Until she does, she will not be ABLE to negotiate with you in couples counseling to resolve the old issues. That’s why you see admonitions from various posters here on MB that MC is worthless while the adultery is still ongoing.

For now, 21, just deal with her terribly cruel choice to indulge herself with an adultery. It's enough to have an adultery on anyone's plate without fatally complicating the solution to this issue, and all other problems, by dealing with everything at once. Take care of this first; then make the marriage stronger later.

Thanks a lot Guys,
I feel better when I read this.

thank you for your concern

In a few weeks it’s our 13-year anniversary,
I always take her out for a nice dinner, should I plan on it, or don’t even ask?
Or maybe just a nice card?

Since it is weeks away....

keep the date open and wait and see which way the wind is blowing at that time

I always vote "YES" for good food prepared by experts and brought directly to me by pleasant smiling humans... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Hi 21,

I exposed my WW's A to anyone who could influence an end to the A. My WW was absolutely livid! She said I had no idea what betrayal feels like. Of course, I assured her that I do.

For weeks,she denied her A and blamed everything on my imagination. Finally, she turned the corner and no longer denies it. It is too early to know what the outcome will be. It took me a while to expose and the only regret I have is not exposing sooner.

Just give it time. Nobody can predict what will happen but at least you refused to sit back and not do anything positive to help your WW or your M. Of that you should be proud.

Joe,

Please do not fear your WW's anger...you are trained to fear it, maybe even believe it means the opposite of love...it does not.

Here's where you get a firm grip on respect...knowing what is yours and what is NOT yours...

She has her own feelings, thoughts and beliefs...they are hers. Remember? Do not fear them...you did not cause them, cannot cure them or control them...what you can do is respect them. Acknowledge them...they are valid. They are hers.

You have your own...when you feel fear, you may quickly experience anger or frustration right after that fear feeling...know this is you...not her doing it to you...stay separate and equal. Acknowledge your own fear to yourself...it's valid...your feelings, thoughts and beliefs are yours...

Hug yourself...do not doubt yourself...your self is whole and complete and as marvelously made as any of us here...know this, Joe. This is honest soothing...reassurance of truth for your truth...breathe, walk, stretch...and listen and repeat to your WW...do not argue, attempt to persuade...repeat her words back to her with choice...

"I hate you!"

"I hear you feel like you hate me right now."

"This won't stop anything!"

"I hear you're choosing to destroy two families through infidelity."

Soft, calm, earnestness...because you are hearing and handing back...hear and hand back. Not yours...hers.

You can do this. You ARE doing this. Did you do the RC questionnaire? Do you know a lot of RC stuff your wife liked? Can you plan for that stuff once a week...yes, I'm asking you to date your WW...I did my WH...and yes, it was important...

Like Pep quoted BobPure...you've gone to Knight status...it doesn't get easier after exposure; you just get to live in a swath of truth instead of in the dark...maybe where you didn't know her shame ended and yours began.

LA

***I exposed my WW's A to anyone who could influence an end to the A. My WW was absolutely livid! She said I had no idea what betrayal feels like.***

Omigod - if that doesn't belong in the WS Hall Of Shame, I don't know what does.

Todd, how did you keep from laughing out loud when she said that?

21, does this help you to see what you are dealing with here - as in, the complete and total lack of logic that every WS is afflicted with?

Hang in there and do NOT let her scare you! Remember this post. Your WW is quite likely to say the same sort of thing!
Mulan

It’s weird LA I forgot to mention in my post this morning

Somehow this is exactly what I told her,

Thank you for your honesty

You always tried to say less so you don’t hurt me with your truth.
I respect you more now because you shared your true feelings with me

And I respect that, this is the first time you told me that you hated me,
This is the first time you told me that I wasn’t affectionate enough with you
And I acknowledge that.
Than you for being honest with me.

Wow, Joe...how did you feel saying that? Talk about heroic...and true.

Would you feel attacked by me if I fine-tuned something...it's important, I promise:

"You always tried to say less so you don’t hurt me with your truth."

"I believe you have tried to say less so you don't hurt me with your truth."

(again...fine tuning...but you're the leader, so it matters)

"And I respect that, this is the first time you told me that you hated me,
This is the first time you told me that I wasn’t affectionate enough with you
And I acknowledge that."

"And I respect that. This is the first time I heard you tell me you hated me. And the first time I heard you say I wasn't affectionate enough with you. I acknowledge that."

Again...your essence is there...upping the ownership...negates argument, see? Nothing to argue against. You really got a WOW out of me, Joe. Believe in your truth...know your power...and it is you respecting what isn't yours (and wasn't) which is enabling you to respect yourself more, for what is.

Big kudos...now, how do you feel?

LOL

Ain't I a pain?

LA

Oh I tell you it felt realy good when I said that.

and please feel free to correct me anytime you want LA.

Hey, not correcting...fine tuning. Yeah, that's it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Can you see the difference in the wording? These are for phrasing in your mind, as well. You get to self-coach...you have to keep your sticky fingers off of what is hers even in your mind. And yes, the reward is feeling great...no longer sagging under the irresponsibility of what is hers on your shoulders.

There's more where that came from, too...of great feelings. In Plan A, you learn more about yourself, instead of seeing you through her eyes...and doing that, making that choice, changes everything.

Know how they say a good Plan A will either give you your marriage or a you who can stand on your own? Well, standing on your own, owning what you stand for, is what makes you a great marriage partner...fully aware of your own power, your own part...Plan A is like bootcamp...builds self-respect, love and gratitude.

Be grateful for yourself...you're doing Plan A!

LA

Thank you LA

I was going to ask her if she is feeling better today.

Should I even if she is not talking to me?

Nope...I wouldn't. See, you're in a pattern you have to break...knowing how she's feeling instead of stating how you are feeling, what you are thinking...respect is knowing humans share...digging is disrespectful right now...what looked like concern pre-A, TLC, might have been each of you depending on the other's feelings to tell you how you're doing.

I was so much like this, I wanted to get a bumper sticker made that said, "1-800-How'sMyLiving?"

Break this pattern...ask yourself for your truth...why do you want to know if she is feeling better today?

LA

I guess I always found joy in taking care of her.

I believe you're right, she is responsible for her own feelings.

I'm always worried that I would say the wrong thing.

See, you see the difference...

between taking care of...

and be responsible for...

One is honoring, filling ENs...from your choice to love...

the other is disabling, denigrating and disrespectful...

You are responsible for half your marriage...think of it like a third circle...you got your circle, which over laps the marriage...she has hers, which overlaps the marriage...and then the third circle IS the marriage.

Right now, you are honoring the marriage, even when you cannot truly honor your wife...because she's WW...that's how you stay loyal and faithful...to the marriage and your part.

Your fear of saying the wrong thing comes from being responsible for her reaction. The fear lessens the more you do what you did today...own only your part...not hers, too.

You're doing this. You really are.

LA

She never ceases to astonish me.

I got home last night she was doing laundry
I got the load out of the drier, to notice that she took my cloth out of the pile
Put them on the flour and only washed her cloth and the kids.

Wow I didn’t say anything yet but I’m sure it will come up sometime soon
I feel so used it’s like she is committing adultery and I’m still doing all my husbandly duty
I break a bad promise and tell OMW and she is punishing me for it. Another WOW.
How should I deal respond or maybe ask her about this?

Or should I ignore it?

She's trying to bait you into an argument.

She's trying to hurt you because of your exposure of her affair.

Quite childish behavior, huh?

Does she remind you of an adolescent?

Very, very typical WS behavior.

A good sign, actually.

Ignore most of this behavior. Don't take the bait.

She will likely escalate her taunts and you'll have to draw a line in the sand eventually. But laundry on the floor is not the cue.

When the right cue comes, react calmly and confidently. Stand up for yourself and "command" respect by your presence and fortitude. We cannot describe exactly when and how to do this. You have to.

DO NOT retaliate in a tit for tat way. You are not childish.

WAT

Thanks WAT I kind knew that, I guess I will do a load
on the weekend with all the cloth in it.
But wouldn't that show a weakness,like I'm giving in? she already thinks that I'm weak, and she doesn't have respect for me anymore.

no sweat.
it does hurt Though.
espacialy with everything I still do for her.
Oh well.

I'm not wat, but --
If you continue to act like a mature husband, as you have done lately, you won't do the spiteful little things your wife is doing but you will continue to do the right thing as though you had not noticed what she did or didn't do.

She wants a fight. Pick your battles. Don't let it be over the laundry. You are the grownup. She's a tantruming toddler. You took her dangerous toy away. She's in withdrawal.

You're doing great.

WAT and Bellevue are spot on, Joe...

You're breaking the pattern...the dance...and she is doing what she has always done...retaliate...

"Wow I didn’t say anything yet but I’m sure it will come up sometime soon"

Here is where I would acknowledge..."I see you are not including my clothes."

Simple...and yes, you do them yourself, if necessary. Acknowledge...not argue. You are stating reality--it's your job; somebody's gotta do it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I feel so used it’s like she is committing adultery and I’m still doing all my husbandly duty"

Here is where you're kicking your own butt, Joe. Beware. You are not being used...you have the expectation ingrained in you to give to get...and you're breaking that cycle...it's a tough one to discontinue. When you feel used, talk to yourself and acknowledge the give to get expectation and give yourself a mental hug. You're choosing to love...not giving to get.

"I break a bad promise and tell OMW and she is punishing me for it. Another WOW." You haven't seen all the ways you both punished each other over the years? If you didn't do, she didn't reward? Went silent? Withdrew? Or you? React to reaction? I think you're being stunned now by how far that mindset can go...how twisted and manipulative it really is...quite a WOW...breathe deeply and know you're no longer living that way.

Just like Bellevue said...you're being a mature husband now...give this time, your effort and attention...and know your own signals inside...they are yours.

LA

I don't think she is in withdrawl yet I believe she is still in contact with OM no SF but phone and email, now
the pastor called me last night and according to him
OM is working on marriage with his BW.

and that the principl had talked to my WW and offered My WW a whole range of counceling help, and my WW agreed to
use them.
she didn't tell me that.
all she told me is that the principal was nice and told her that we all make Mistakes.

and she told me that she hated me and that OM will always be her friend for ever.

I did not say a word.

should I state to her that the pastor called me and told me about the conversation with the principal?
or should I call the principal and ask for the help available? maybe I could use it.

that snooping thing is unbearable,
how do you get over the hurt, or how do you shut it down,
I hate doing this with a passion.

213,

They are still communicating????

I think another call to OM's W might be in order!!!

And one to the pastor. This does not sound like the OM is working on his M to me!

Cut off your W's cell phone! She couldn't get any more pi$$y could she?

kirk

absolutely. You must tell her that the church knows and that the her OM has stated he wants to work on the marriage.

You should also contact the pastor, the principal and the OMW NOW and tell them that contact has continued and that they are still carrying on their affair. KEEP THE HEAT ON UNTIL CONTACT ENDS! If the OM is not removed and does not stop contacting your wife, you will have to expose this to the BOARD and the church at large.

Ask the pastor what he intends on doing about this? Ask him if he cannot keep his associate pastor from carrying on an affair with your W. The OM is not working on his marriage if he is still in contact with your wife. That is an =bvious lie. But you MUST notify the OMW, the OM's bosses, about every new contact.

"""should I state to her that the pastor called me and told me about the conversation with the principal?"""

What good would that do....? Not much, correct, then really doesn't need said.

"""that snooping thing is unbearable,
I know they're sending love messages but when I see some of the content, which is not R rated by the way, it hurts
how do you get over the hurt, or how do you shut it down,
I hate doing this with a passion."""

If they are still e-mailing.... Print out each e-mail and give a copy to the Pastor and one to OMW..... Don't say a word....

Then bust up this affair! You have them on the ropes, don't let them get back up. This might be the only chance you have to kill the affair. Let your wife know how widely exposed she is. It is no fun to have an affair when everyone is watching!

213,

""Ask the pastor what he intends on doing about this? Ask him if he cannot keep his associate pastor from carrying on an affair with your W.""

THAT IS VERY AWESOME, MEL!!

I would like to see the pastor's face right after he hears this. (Do you have a picture phone?)

I was planing on contacting OMW to find out what's going on, I called yesterday and OM answered the phone,
I should have talked to him but I didn't at least he wasn't with my wife, right.

ahhhhhh, gotcha. Well, quit reading them! Just know that you are reading the messages of a falling down drunk expressing her "love" for booze. It is the equivalent, so don't take it too seriously. This guy is a sleazebag and she won't be too fond of him after the fog rolls out.

In the meantime, tell her about the conversation with the principal. The purpose of exposure is to EXPOSE, so make sure she knows he knows and what he said. It will cause her great disappointment to find out that OM wants to save his marriage. Go disappoint her!

OK ML
the principal already talked to her, she knows that the pastor knows, I will tell her that OM is working on his marriage.

Joe,

Sounds like you're asking how to stop the audio tapes in your head from the emails...reading their words...is that correct?

I know you won't believe it now, but they do fade...each time they begin, bless them and send them away immediately...not new information...only torment...you can control your thoughts...please believe this...and the more you practice doing this, the easier it gets.

Your brain isn't betraying you...where our mind dwells, there is our treasure...our brain believes you want to hear those words over and over again because that is where you're dwelling...train your brain differently. If you can rid yourself of the image or words before 10 seconds, you will not have the emotional punch to it...that's what I call blessing it and sending it past you...

If you dwell for longer, your brain happily retrieves the emotions which corresponded to reading those emails the first time...and you have to relive them over and over again.

Joe--be kind to yourself. Your brain doesn't know time...all of it is in the now...and it's a quick retrieval system...isn't being unkind...so bless and pass on the info...

You can do this...over time, brain knows, stops handing you this pain...when you pass on it. Each time you dwell, wrap your mind in circles around it, then brain thinks it's helping to give you what you want.

And for Mel's sake, this is the janitor, correct? Not the assistant pastor? You did re-expose on the 5/31 communications...that was just Monday, Joe. That's fresh pain...and it happens. We're all sorry and pulling for you. Take Mel's advice and be an advocate for truth...re-expose with every future contact...that's also boundary enforcement.

You're doing great. Be as kinder to yourself and you'll see more kindness in others and to others, I promise.

I remember the compulsion to snoop, re-read, decipher and decode...and since it's a fantasy, there is no logic, no deciphering...isn't encrypted...it's insane!

Did you tell OMW about MarriageBuilders? Will she come here for support and encouragement?

And is the pastor still allowing your WW to volunteer at the church/school? Or has that ended for now?

Protect yourself from OM and contact for yourself...when you do get through to OMW, and tell her about MB, then you will both be able to share info and get help without having to risk the pain of hearing WW or OM's voice.

We've been there...I used to have to call my WH's work and hear the OW answer and have to ASK for my husband...killed me. I swear. After our first MC, I sent flowers to work with a an unenveloped card that said, "Thank you for working on our marriage, Your Wife"....ROFL...took months for him to tell him how she urged him to throw them away, was terribly angry and took it out on coworkers...and he ended up giving them to another employee to take home...however, this was important...because what OW was saying, "Go back to your wife...I don't want to be a homewrecker...etc." wasn't really truth, was it?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Further down the road, Joe, there is reflection without pain...once you train your brain. I promise. You can get there.

LA

As usual, great advice, LA! So this is the janitor?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I don't have a problem talking to him LA I think he is remorsfull, we have a couple of mutual friends they tell me
he is a very nice helpful honest man.

so it might be good to talk to him I think I might be easier to convince him to NC than convincing my wife,
I was thinking maybe a meeting at the pastor's office
me him his wife and maybe my ww.

am I making sence or I'm in the fog to?

maybe it's me but I always tend to see the good in people, because I think their is good in every person.

I don't know some people think it's a blessing some think it's a curse.
sometimes I wonder myself.

Hey, Joe...I think a meeting with pastor and all four of you is great...and you knowing you're choosing does help, doesn't it?

About convincing...is that respectful? Wouldn't OM choosing NC and your wife choosing NC be as valuable as you making your choices? If you believe you convinced, you might not believe they made a choice...and others do...as do you.

Just a thought...I think truth shines, God guides and you are doing really well...I can't conceive of talking to OW or OM to this day...nada...nope.

LA

213601, I think that is a good idea to call him, but I would not be a part of any continued contact between the OM and your WW. Maybe a meeting with you and the pastor to speak to him? If that can't be arranged you could call him up and ask him what his intentions are with your wife. Ask him to try and be decent for a change and stop contacting her and stop accepting her communications.

I think that is a good idea, but you should not trust him, 213. He is not to be trusted and is NOT your friend or the friend of your wife. Just keep this in mind in all your dealings. While it is good to see GOOD in people, don't allow yourself to be BLIND to the BAD.

And more importantly, keep in mind that one of these two things is going to HAVE TO HAPPEN: a) you remove your children from this school or b) the OM leaves that school. Someone will have to leave in order for your marriage to EVER RECOVER. So perhaps you should have this discussion.

It's a fine line between convincing to chose and chosing,
I don't think they will chose NC on their on will, without help.
espacialy if they're still in the fog.
as I said earlier WW told me that he will be her friend for ever, I didn't respond to that but she belives this.

213601, have you told her that absolute no contact is your boundary? And that this boundary is NON-NEGOTIABLE? I would make sure she understands this. Your marriage cannot survive if any contact continues and she needs to know it.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ALL of you meeting in the pastors office. That would give the infidels a chance to see the FACES of the people they are victimizing.

Steve Harley once counseled a man here to go meet the OM face to face so the OM could put a FACE on the husband he is hurting. He believed this would be very effective. I know that Pepperband insisted on a group meeting with her H, the OW and the OWH to good effect.

ML the problem at this time is that WW doesn't want to work on M in her mind nothing will work.
and this woman can hold resentment for ever.
but I get your point.
I will not trust him I will watch his actions.
thanks

We hear this all the time. She will likely want to work on the marriage once contact has ended and she is through withdrawal. So, don't give up hope before you have even started.

It's a catch 22 isn't it

she is not talking to me.
she doesn't want to end contact, well so far I don't think they contacted yet.

and it won't get any better till they do end contact.

strange but true

She may not have a choice about ending contact. Just stick to your plan about disrupting the affair first and worry about recovery later. I think you have a good plan in place and I would set up a meeting with the pastor, like you suggested, and tell him that contact must end and either you are pulling your kids out or the OM leaves. One or the other.

Listen, you have this guy over a barrel and he knows it, 213. If he forces a family to leave because his janitor is screwing a parishioners wife, that would not look good! Other families would not be happy to hear this, would they? So, the pastor has a little predicament here, doesnt he?

You can also contact the OMW about any continued contact. I think you have a very good chance of killing this affair if you will just stick to it while you have them on the ropes. If you back off right now, though, it gives them a chance to get back up and regroup. So, don't back off until the affair is OVER, ok?

It matters little if she still intends to stay in contact with him if he refuses contact!

The problem is even though the school and the church are on the same property they are seperate from each other.
and we don't belong to the parish.
we are only parents of 2 kids that go to the school.

I will call the pastor see if he is willing to meet with all of us.
I will contact OMW tell her about MB.
maybe she will get some insight from here.

HI LA
My MIL got mad when I tried to tell her what’s going on she told me not to call her anymore, I know she is pushing towards a divorce, she told me “ why don’t you leave.
I’m thinking of sending her an e-mail apologizing for trying to get her involved.
She is a very good person but I think my WW had told her some lies.
I don’t want her to hate me.
I need your input even a rewrite is ok you always have ways with words
Thanks.



I’m sorry Grandma

I never intended to offend you I respect you and love you with all my heart.

I love my WW more then anything in the world; she is the best thing that ever happened to me.
All I’m trying to do is keep my family together. My family is all I ‘vet got.
I know she is your daughter and you love her, I love her to.
I never intended for you guys to take sides, all I wanted is convince my WW to get some counseling.

If I don’t try everything I can before call it quits I could never live with myself.
I don’t want to look back at this and say what if.

I didn’t know that you didn’t want to get involved I guess it’s the difference in cultures.

I respect your choice and I still love you I will not talk about the subject again.
And like I said a while back what ever happens between my wife and me you will
Still be my family.

Please don’t hate me.
I would like to apologies in person could you please give me this opportunity.

LOVE

Don’t send it. Your MIL is a good person as long as her DD is “happy”. She does not deserve an apology from you. In fact she should be apologizing to you for letting her feelings for her DD get in the way of her moral judgments.

On a practical level, this letter would only show that you are weak and would not advance your cause much. I personally think it is a waste of time.

Lastly, you only beg in extreme circumstances, and this is not one of them.

Oh, Joe...

Some of the hard pain comes from loving the family of WS and being rejected by them. I remember.

What would you write if you believed WW hadn't told them lies but the truth and they still advised her to divorce?

You are looking for leverage...and I understand wanting someone to stand up for you, believe as you do, and work for what you want when you want it...

And I found this Plan A a solo journey, except for MB.

You know how you feared your WW's anger from exposure? You fear Grandma's anger from exposure, also...

I do not apologize for telling truth. I was a "I'm sorry" person, at least four times a day...until I figured out I was saying sorry so much because it was what I wanted to hear the most.

Apologies and amends are important...not to be used lightly. You did nothing to offend...Grandma's anger is her own...respect that. What she feels and believes and thinks are hers...

You know this. You want someone to say they are sorry for your pain, your severe rejection, trauma and I think, maybe, to say, "Joe, you can be angry, fearful, frustrated." Well, Joe? You can. They are yours.

There's nothing embarrassing or wrong for wanting MIL & FIL to love and support you the way you want them to...what would be wrong is thinking you caused them anything. Their daughter did. You exposed her actions to them.

LA

THANKS guys.

One more advice

This weekend is going to be rough

She is giving me the silent treatment

She told me already that she feels better when I’m not around
She even treats the kids better when I’m not around.

Should I try to talk to her?

Take the kids somewhere? (She will be mad if I did that, but I do need to spend time with the kids)

Or just go out by myself spend some time with my friends?

Her choice to treat the children less than well when you're around is her CHOICE. You cannot make her.

You know that already...I'm just reminding.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do not choose your actions from her reactions...

Things you can do with the kids at home...play cards or a board game outside, bbq, play music and dance...I dunno. You know what your kids like. You know what you like. You can do it at home which has the invitation for her to join in...

Did you know the "silent treatment" is abusive?

You might want to stick with your O&H statements...include what you feel about MIL...simple statements. Stay present...notice how much you want to react to her instead of act...use today to be aware and contemplative about yourself.

You are in the hard area right now...not in contact and not in recovery...I remember that desolate tundra...and you will get across it. Stay centered and focused.

You can do this.

LA

Thanks.
and no I didn't know that the silent treatment is abusive.

I will keep trying
thank god for MB.

You aren't trying, Joe, you are doing. There is no try. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Read up on relationships, Joe...Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend; The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Evans; Healing the Shame that Binds Us by Bradshaw.

Seeing things new is part of healing...inside yourself.

You can do this...maybe a trip to the bookstore today, eh?

LA

21, the "silent treatment" is abusive and it's a manipulative tool wayward ones love to use. Don't fall for it. Go about your business of Plan A'ing yourself into the best man a woman could dream of, and the finest father your children could ever want. In the military, we call it "leading by example." Be what you know you should be, instead of reacting to what she wants you to think you are.

Stay strong, pardner.

I already read boundaries in marriage last weekend.

I’m dyslectic you know it’s hard for me to read but I think I’ve been cured
I read boundaries in marriage in 2 days.

Thanks LH that helps a lot.

I called WW to see if I needed to baby sit my son because I knew she had to take
My DD to a party, she said no he is invited to, I asked where is the party,
“ At the park, please don’t show up I don’t want to see you” she said.

I replied thank you for you’re honesty.

To tell you the truth it did hurt, not as much as it should though, I don’t know maybe I’m getting the hang of it.

I just received a call from OM’s friend it seems that my WW
Tried to contact OM it was intercepted by OMW

The good news is OM admitted to everything they are going to counseling, looks like he is committed to save his marriage.

My question is should I tell my silent wife what happened,
And that she should consider leaving OM alone so he can recover his marriage?
Or say nothing at all?

I'm still hanging in.

My perspective was to state what I knew...not ask.

"You chose to contact OM today."

It is not verifying or confirming...it is open and honest (O&H) statement.

I did not advise my WH on his choices...what he should do or not. I acknowledged his choices.

Part of my intent to stay in truth.

And you did well with your "I appreciate your honesty" earlier...it takes the bite of pain down a notch or two to mean it...know this isn't about you, even now...

God's with you every step, Joe...you are honoring him as you honor yourself and your marriage.

LA

Just tell her that OMW has notified you of recent contact and that the OM is committed to working on his marriage. Don't say anything more. No lectures, no recriminations. Don't make her defensive.

The OMW's friend is an angel! Tell the OMW that she did the exactly the right thing and that if yall continue to keep each other in the loop like this, you can probably kill the affair.

Ask the OMW to ask her H to send your wife a nc letter. Tell her that is what Dr Harley recommends.

Thanks guys

The friend made it sound like he would be the middleman; I gave him all my phone numbers.

I offered a package I printed from MB for OMW he said they are going to counseling

Now but he will relate the info. To OMW if she is interested.

I will keep you posted.

213601 - First things first..... (((((Joseph)))))


I have now read through your entire thread, and all your past threads.

I hear a common "thread" in them, but no direct statement from you, so I am going to ask you a direct question about it and not try to "guess."

Your children attend a private Christian school, the OM works there, the Pastor is "investigating," etc. etc. etc.

What I want to know, because it will have a direct bearing on any potential help, discussion, or advice I might be led to offer is this;

Are you and your wife, both or individually, "born again?"

Having been "beaten up" many times for "injecting religion" where it might not be wanted, I will say no more until you choose to answer, or choose not to answer, that question.

Until then, let me simply say that you have been getting some very good practical advice.

Let me also recommend that you get a good firm understanding of what Boundaries are and what Standards are. You seem to be confusing them right now, and that is understandable as you are reeling from the shock of nuclear betrayal.

One more thing, Joe

You ARE the "bad guy," didn't you know?

Just like rape victims are the "bad girl" because someone chose to inflict pain and anguish upon them without even asking their for their consent to be raped.

(((((Joseph)))))

Been there. Heard it all. Don't believe ONE word that proceeds out of the mouth of your "alien abductee" wife's mouth while the affair is going on and whenever she might be going through Withdrawal (yet to come, but it will happen).

Thanks for your honesty FH

No we are not born again,
I am catholic, both kids are baptized catholic
My wife believes in god and the bible she is Mormon but never practiced
So she goes with the flow.

Now OM and OMW are born again Christian and very religious, and very active.

Hope this info will help.

Feel free to advice any way you like I do believe in god and the scripture.
I pray every day for strength, but to be honest with you I’m losing my faith.

How are you doing today, Joe? Don't forget those statements for feelings and thoughts...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for losing your faith...I felt the same way...until I figured out I had made my DH my god, slowly but surely over the course of our marriage, my focus entirely on him...and his A actually broke me of that...giving me a wake up back to my faith...in God. And I realized, I had turned to my DH without consciously doing so, because I believed God was losing his faith in me.

Stuff to ponder...believe in yourself, thank God for the strength you already have and know you will have enough...be aware of your growth and all you're learning, right now...

You're not alone.

LA

Saturday evening
I relayed to her that OM friend called stating that OMW intercepted an n e-mail message
To OM the message was:“ I need to talk to you”.

I wasn’t planning on a talk or an argument.

But like lemonman said “I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability”.

She really blew up on me I never heard such hurtful words from her or anybody
Vented on me.

I stayed calm but I had to answer.

WW:
I can’t believe you did this you promised me you wouldn’t tell his wife
Me: my promise was conditional on you not sleeping with OM anymore
And you broke you’re promise.
WW:
I never promised that.
Me:
Yes you did but I’m not going to argue with you about this.
WW:
I hate you more than anybody in the world, and don’t want to see your
Ugly f**** face anymore and more of that kind of stuff.

I hope you’re happy you hurt his children’s, his wife is such a B****,
She made him tell his children’s and now they are hurting.

Me:
I acknowledge and respect your feelings, I’m sorry you feel this way, but I
Did not hurt his children’s it was his W’s choice to do what she did
And it’s the adultery that hurt his children’s
And I do not regret what I did; I know it was the right thing to do
And now they are going to counseling and they might save their marriage.One marriage saved out of 2 is still a blessing.

WW:
They have tried before and their marriage is gone, I know he told me
He is staying for the kids.

Me:
This is his choice.

WW:
Well I hope you’re happy now it’s over between us

Me:
You mean to tell me that it wasn’t before? you where willing to work on it?
Because If I recall I’ve been trying to get us into counseling way before OM
Was in the picture, you always refused.
This marriage is been over for a while now, I’m not trying to save it,
We did a lot of wrong things, what I’m trying to do is start fresh,
New understanding new beginning.

We learned a lot from this in the last few months, I have learned a lot,
We can take the knowledge from this split up and apply it on a new relationship,
Or we can apply it on this one and keep our family together.

Sometimes it doesn’t get better till it gets worse, it’s like a car that is making noise,
Some people don’t fix it until it breaks, and this is what happened to us,
It’s broken, we have the choice to fix it or throw it away.

No body said it would be easy, no body said it will be quick, all we need is commitment
I made that commitment; it’s up to you now.

WW:
(Covering her eyes so I don’t see her cry)
It will never be the same.

Me:
I promised myself that I wouldn’t preach, and look at me.
I’m going to go have a cup of coffee and grab something to eat,
Do you want a cup of tea or something?

WW:
NO.



Did I screw up?
I did brush her words of at the time, but later on they came back and god they hurt.
They hurt not because of the content; they hurt because of the intent to hurt.
It never stops.
I thought of telling her how hurtful some of her words are but I didn’t
Should I?

Back to fine tuning...you staying calm and direct, sticking to your truth...my remarks are not attacks or judgment...

"Me:
I acknowledge and respect your feelings, I’m sorry you feel way, but I
Did not hurt his children’s it was his W’s choice to do what she did"

You didn't get it and then you got it...you are emphasizing choices...emphasize the choices of the adulterers...and you caught yourself in the next line:

"And it’s the adultery that hurt his children’s"

By putting OMW first, it takes away the primary truth...OM and WW hurt everyone's children and spouses...and themselves. Practice this...I see where you are susceptible to WW's fog...and are pulled in her illogical direction...I remember. I did, too. Staying clear inside you will help you to stay calm, see how child-like your WW is right now...almost calling you a big ol' doodoo face (slang American for poopyhead...what phrase did you grow up with when you were 5-years-old and super duper mad?)

"And I do not regret what I did; I know it was the right thing to do
And now they are going to counseling and they might save their marriage."

And what you followed with was fantastic...remind yourself you do not regret doing the right thing, your goal to save your marriage...even in the face of your WW's anger and irrational responses. She wants you to be at fault, you understand. Anyone but her...too big a responsibility...and you know this as her reasoning, not the truth...I know you do. Stay right there. Be aware you are staying present in your WW's fury and you're not dissolving, being killed or annihilated...what you feared from her anger before. Not happening. Amazing, isn't it?

Then you hit your limit...what was it? What was the exact point that sent you back to defensive/offensive mode?

"Me:
You mean to tell you and me that it wasn’t before where willing to work on it.
Because If I recall I’ve been trying to get us into counseling way before OM
Was in the picture, you always refused."

Why are you arguing here? Means you took her statement as THE truth, not HER truth...why? Is this your biggest fear, that it is over and your fault?

"This marriage is been over for a while now, I’m not trying to save it,"

Is this your truth or your reactive hope in harming her enough to stop harming you?

"We did a lot of wrong things, what I’m trying to do is start fresh,
New understanding new beginning."

Oh, I get it...you're not trying to save the old marriage...but create a new one...I'm slow. I'll get there.

"We learned a lot from this in the last few months, I have learned a lot,
We can take the knowledge from this split up and apply it on a new relationship,
Or we can apply it on this one and keep our family together.

Sometimes it doesn’t get better till it gets worse, it’s like a car that is making noise,
Some people don’t fix it until it breaks, and this is what happened to us,
It’s broken, we have the choice to fix it or throw it away.

No body said it would be easy, no body said it will be quick, all we need is commitment
I made that commitment; it’s up to you now.

WW:
(Covering her eyes so I don’t see her cry)
It will never be the same.

Me:
I promised myself that I wouldn’t preach, and look at me.
I’m going to go have a cup of coffee and grab something to eat,
Do you want a cup of tea or something?

WW:
NO."

Wow...you caught yourself...what a great catch and save...you're really good at this...how about a standard reply for her standard statement "It will never be the same"? How about, "That is what gives me hope, WW."

"Did I screw up?" How?

"I did brush her words of at the time, but later on they came back and god they hurt.
They hurt not because of the content; they hurt because of the intent to hurt."

Okay...you didn't brush off her words at the time...you had them secure in that hopper on your head...and again, don't allow them to come into your brain until you and your brain agree this is her opinion, not fact...not your truth, her perception, 'k? Then they don't hurt. You better be strong for YOU because you're worth it...you've allowed yourself to be hurt for a life time believing others over yourself...time to protect self in truth...allowing others to own what is theirs and stop taking it from them, stabbing yourself with it, 'k?

Hurt because of her intent? Isn't that a DJ? Did you ask for her intent? I bet it would be "to stop hurting"...

You both have had this dance of earning each other's love and earning each other's punishment...and you're stopping that dance...stop it in your head, too, 'k?

"It never stops." This is your inner child...know you stopped that dance by offering coffee or tea...how elegant, kind, comforting and what a great spouse...regardless of response.

"I thought of telling her how hurtful some of her words are but I didn’t
Should I?"

Save your Open & Honesty statements for when you aren't engaged in conflict...these are for awhile later...or next day...like "I am thinking about how much pain I felt yesterday when I heard you say you hated me. This coffee is really good. Thank you. That tea/coffee I had last night helped to settle me down after our conversation."

Simple...honest...no attack...not resonse-based...and interlaced with appreciation. Real stuff, not fake.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This isn't a test you pass or fail, Joe...it is life...as is...and how different is your response from this conversation versus a year ago with your wife?

LA

LA thank you I always feel better when I read your reply.

“ Why are you arguing here? Means you took her statement as THE truth, not HER truth...why? Is this your biggest fear, that it is over and your fault?”

Yes it is my biggest fear.

A friend asked a few days ago. Actually the day of the exposure.

Why are you trying to save this marriage?

Is it for financial reason?
For the kids?
Or you just want her back?

I told him that this might be selfish but I do want her back, so I’m doing this for me.

He said WOW I didn’t think you would be that honest.

So this is my reason it’s etched in my mind and I’m doing all I can to save my marriage and keep my family together.
If this is wrong then I don’t want to be right.

LA I would love to print some of youre replys for her to read would that be a bad Idea at this time?

what if she calls an attorney?

Joe, my replies are for you...not her. Educating her, which I believe I desired greatly to do with my WH, because I shared my beliefs and experiences with him...and this was HUGE, learning from MB...really came from this sharing and intimacy...and it was a good thing to not do this...to educate...helped to break that automatic enmeshment...to know what I knew, learned what I learned for me, and to respect my spouse would ask when they wanted to know...learn when they needed to learn or were open to it...

Keep them for you...everyone's replies...they are for you, about you...

I'm glad you know you're doing this for you...and your kids, because they are a part of you...

And admire you for speaking this, being O&H, about your why's, to others...

There's nothing to do about her calling an attorney...breathe, know your limits and power...because my experience on MB and in real life is WS's use the threat of divorce...believe they are taking steps...sling it around as if saying it makes it so...even my WH had an interview with an attorney and would not file nor follow her advice...though he kept telling the OW he was getting one...oh, yeah...and he didn't. Wouldn't. Nor did I...

Respect her choices as out of your control...respect yourself and do not conjure up the future because it isn't here...

Let's go to your biggest fear...

" Is this your biggest fear, that it is over and your fault?”

Yes it is my biggest fear."

Look inside yourself...find out how this belief (behind the fear) that you are so powerful, you cause and control so much, that you would be at fault for destroying your marriage? God made you special? He gave you control over your spouse? He didn't give her choice? Or did God give you half the marriage and she, the other half?

Your part IS your part...and look at how much you had no idea about...nor did many of us, before coming here...forgiving yourself can get bound up, tied to forgiving your WS...don't let this happen. Know your limits...and hers. Maya Angelou: We did then what we knew; when we knew better, we did better.

Focus on you...not her, Joe. Reminder.

Talk to God...and listen...listen a lot...hear him whispering you home...he is faithful and doesn't leave...we leave him from time to time...and he waits for us. He doesn't betray.

Know this. This can be you...and you won't betray yourself fousing on her to your own exclusion, will you?

LA

No LA my fear is that it's over.

I don't blame myself for it.

the only thing I will regret is that we didn't even try counseling, befor calling it quits.

What you do if she's called an attorney is to call one to protect yourself. Secure your finances and make sure she cannot loot your joint accounts.

21,

Whatever you do, get an attorney yourself ASAP. Trying to get WW back is good, and you should continue to Plan A, but you need to also protect yourself and your CHILDREN should the worst come to pass. Call an attorney and find out your options, lest you be broadsided. As LH said, be sure to also protect your finances. WS are known to deplete the family’s finances when they think they want a D.

Good luck.

Thanks guys I'm going to ask her tonight if she did actualy
see a lawyer.or if she is planing to.
I asked lawyer she is a friend of mine, well a customer
a while back about all this stuff.

213, can I make a suggestion so this doesn't escalate out of control? Dont' say anything to her tonight. Do as the others said and contact the atty, though, so your W can't harm you. Get your finances protected.

However, when your W speaks of divorce, tell her that you don't do divorce, you only do marriage. But if she does insist on going through, that you will PROTECT yourself and the kids and go for primary custody. Tell her you will be citing adultery and naming the OM, calling the OMW and the pastor as witnesses.

Make sure she understands that you will not just lay down for a divorce but will fight for every inch. One of the biggest mistakes that BS' make is going along with divorce and HELPING the WS end the marriage. If you don't help her end the marriage, it often buys the time neccessary for things to blow over. And things usually DO blow over.

In your case, your W is FURIOUS because you have interfered with her affair. However, she won't be furious next week. And she won't be furious after she withdraws from the OM. She is mad because you have destroyed her affair.

So, the answer is to NOT help her divorce you AT ALL by refusing to cooperate and by letting her know that it will not be a pretty divorce if it comes to that. That may discourage her long enough for the anger to subside.

Another thing that is important to keep in mind here. Many WS' will THREATEN divorce [even to the point of visiting one] in order to SCARE the BS out of interfering with the affair. Don't let her succeed in this!

Thanks ML

I wouldn't say anithing till the dust settels.

I soundly support Mel's advice...it works. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for your fear it's over...keep that in check inside of you...know that is a little boy fear...can't know it is over until the person in the robes wields their gavel, right?

Know this as your truth...reassure yourself it isn't over for a long time...because otherwise, you'll live through those feelings again and again (brain doesn't know time, remember?)...

You can do this...breathe and breathe and breathe some more...when you do this and hyperventilate, remember, I'm the one who said give yourself a head rush.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I remembered you had consulted a lawyer (didn't know it was a friend) ... remember that line..."I do marriage. I don't do divorce."

"I don't do divorce. I do marriage."

You are doing this!!!

LA

Yesterday I got home no body their.
I called her cell phone no answer.
I went out and had dinner, then went to the store to get some items we needed
While at the store she called. With a very confident voice I told her I’m at the grocery store and I got her pepperoni, but I didn’t know what kind of cheese she likes,
She replied don’t get me anything, and she started crying.
I asked what was wrong; she said nothing I’m almost home,
I asked if they had dinner already she said No just bring something for the kids.

This is the 2nd time she cries in front of me.
I don’t know what that means.

I asked her what was wrong when I got home she said I’m fine.

Her silence is killing me.
I have all these questions in my mind like.

Is she crying because she feels guilty?
Is she crying because she misses OM?
She is still being silent and withdrawn from me, I did tell her earlier over the phone
That her words on Saturday where hurtful especially one of them coming out of her,
And I knew she was going to act this way after I told OMW, and I wasn’t expecting a medal for that.
She did not say a word.
Should I stop calling her during the day? I think my calls bother her a lot.

LA I’ve been reading your replies to AMI, and following her story I did what
She did, a lot of her actions where exactly like mine, I did bend my ways to fit my wife’s needs, thinking this is the only way to be loved, and I guess I was wrong.
This is disrespectful; I wish I knew then what I know now.
I always tried to earn her love even though she handed it to me on a silver platter
All I needed to do was reach for it, but I didn’t.
I wish she would give us a second chance.
I’m learning a lot from this and thank god for MB.

213, she is probably in withdrawal because she can't get in touch with the OM. Just hang tight.

she is crying because she feels

L O S T

and

C O N F U S E D

the adultery takes it's toll on the WS who actually has a conscience

they have

soulsickness

and they
cry
or they
rage
or they
hide out in their fantasy

but all of it leads back to

"I don't like myself as a cheater"

hang close
keep your mouth shut
offer non-sexual hugging

it is going to be hard on her

Pep

Make yourself into a soft place right now

when she falls apart

she just might choose you as her soft place to fall

Pep

She made it clear on saturday when she blew up in my face,

that she hated me blablabla, and she doesn't want me to touch her ever again,( this would include huging),and dont call her by her pet name anymore.

so it would be hard to offer a hug.
but she knows I'm here for her, she got the message yesterday when I told her ove the phone I will be right their. she didn't want to say anything, and she was done crying. but she knew I was concerned.

213, do you realize that you have very probably saved your marriage by busting up this affair? If you hadn't done that, there would really be something here to worry about. Your W is going through all the motions of a withdrawing WS, because you were BRAVE.

It might not seem like it right now, but your situation now has HOPE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is no law against asking:

"Do you need a hug?"

"She made it clear on saturday when she blew up in my face,"

She made nothing clear, Joe. Choosing to believe she means what she says...that's you hurting you...punishing yourself for what you didn't know until now...stop...listen to Pep and Mel...she is lost and confused...let her thoughts and feelings be hers...and you be there...

How can you not hug her? She isn't telling her truth...just her feelings right now...and they sound exactly like the 3-year-old she feels like...not an adult woman...and that's okay, because we have A's from our most immature part, don't we? No reasoning, all wishful thinking and fantasy...and pulling out of that takes adult strength and mind...and she's missing her fantasy...not a person...

She loves you, Joe...easy to say she hates you when she hates herself right now, isn't it?

Choose wisely what you believe...know why you want to withhold, calling it self-respect or self-protection, when really, it is you choosing to believe something damaging to you...and untrue.

((((Joe)))) You are brave...be true to yourself and your family.

LA

6/6/06 11:52 AM PST

WW called crying.

Ww:
I don’t know what you have accomplished by telling OMW.
Now the principal just called and I have to go see the pastor @ 3:00 PM.

Bs:
I’m sorry you feel this way did you want me to be there with you.
Ww:
NO I DON”T WANT TO SEE YOU DON”T YOU GET IT?
I ‘m being humiliated everybody thinks I’m the devil I hope you’re
Happy now.

BS:
I’m not apologizing for telling his W, it was the right thing to do,
And looks like they are working on their marriage, one out of two
Is still better then two broken ones.

WW:
How could you do this to me?

BS:
I didn’t do this to you the affair did, I’m sorry you feel this way it tears me apart
That you’re hurting, I care about you more then anything in the world, I wish I could make you feel better.
A friend of mine asked me why are you doing this?
Is it money, kids, or for her?
I told him it’s for her she is the most important person in my life. WW you are an awesome
Person, you are funny outgoing, all you’re friends like you, anybody would want to be with you.

I’m sorry for everything I did wrong in our relationship that led to this affair
We both did some wrong things, but we didn’t know, we did then what we knew,
Now we know better, or at least I know better, so we should do better.

I know a lot now one thing I’m good at is research and I’ve been doing a lot of it
I know what happened, Know why it happened, I know how to fix it.

WW:
I have to go right now I’ll let you go.

BS:
Ok by.

I know too much preaching but I guess break up is still ON, she still hates me,
Those tears where her own shame and pain, no remorse yet.
I’m hanging in there.
Should I ask her what did the pastor say to her tonight or
not say a word?

You did good, 213. Just keep being kind without being over bearing or preachy. She is angry and trying to drag you into a fight so she won't have to look at herself. I think you are handling it real well. You are witnessing the death of her affair.

Here is Suzet's thread on what to expect in withdrawal that might be helpful: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

Thanks ML

should I ask her about the meeting with the pastor?
or just see if she will volunteer the info?

I don't see any reason why you couldn't ask.

I really need help here people. I don't get it. Tell me if I am understanding this correctly:

This post/thread is all about how a husband exposed his cheating wife to the wife of the dude she was cheating with? I am pretty sure that is correct. I am new here, and I just want to make sure I am clarifying the lingo correctly.

Will someone fill me in as to why a man should walk on eggshells to please his cheating wife? Will someone explain to me why the cheating wife and husband are allowed to stay in their homes? Also, could someone explain to me why someone would put up with a cheater being mad at them for exposing them? I just do not get it.

People need to have higher self respect. No one deserves to be hurt like this. Their are consequences for negative actions. Unfortunately, the legal punishments do not fit the crimes. Thus, it is our responsibility as a moral society to police our own!

kinger, most marriages that suffer affairs do not end. There is no virtue in kicking a spouse to the curb for having an affair when there are children involved and the marriage can be saved. That is what Marriage Builders is all about. It is for people who CHOOSE to try and save their marriages. It does't mean they "have no self respect."

Please stop ridiculing folks who are here in the depths of he11 trying to save their marriages when you don't know what you are talking about. They have enough to deal with as it is.

Instead, educate yourself about Marriage Builders principles and do something productive around here.

THank you ML.
you took the words out of my mouth.

I apologize for coming across as if I was ridiculing anyone. I reread my post and it does come off that way. I did not intend it that way. I sincerely apologize.

As far as the "self respect" a comment goes, I regret I wrote it in that context. My main concern is that the person who is the victim of infidelity often not only has their heart broken, world shattered, etc., but he also takes the blame for the behavior, which is completely incorrect.

I understand the concepts of marriage builders. Matter of fact, the complete concept is why I am here. I am studying "group think" as a part of my PhD program. "Group think" is a powerful phenomenon, which is never more evident than in this forum.

No one should ever be criticized for doing anything and everything to try and provide the best life for his or her children. If everyone felt this way, there would be no infidelity in this world. I feel so bad for people that have to experience this. No one deserves it.

I hope you accept my sincere apology.

I will probably post again. You may or may not agree with me. I hope you understand that reading what you want to read is not always the best. I hope that you can accept that educated, experienced people have rational, yet opposing views.

I apologize for my tone. It was not in line. I respect your criticism and I will carry it with me if and when I post again.

Of course it is incorrect. He is not responsible for her affair, nor does Marriage Builders ever encourage such irrational blame shifting.



And I think it is evident that you really know very little about Marriage Builders program and are a little too hasty in applying labels whether they make sense or not.


Might I suggest that you take your own advice? After all, Dr Harley *IS* a PhD; and is very experienced and educated. Not only that, he is quite successful and has saved a marriage or two. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two FROM HIS program if you take the time to listen?

K - I certainly welcome educated and experienced views. What education and experience do you have with respect to infidelity?

BS in social psychology
years of study
personal experience

And the "personal experience" has taken precedence over clinical study obviously.

Or he is equating getting cheated on by his high school girlfriend with marital infidelity.

Please keep in mind Marriage Builders is the web site of educated, experienced people, the HARLEY'S, and this forum is to SUPPORT those members attempting to rebuild their marriages.

Hi, Joe...

I thought she shared she had a meeting scheduled...why ask? Are you talking about how the meeting went? I'm confused.

Lead me back.

How are you feeling?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Kinger - I'd like to hear more. Rather than continue the threadjack, let's move over to the "To Kinger" thread if you're still up for posting on this forum.

Kinger - I'm going to "tread lightly" here because I lived through what is known around here as the "DustKitty" incident. For those who know about "DustKitty," a group of college students doing "research" for their paper, your opinions and attitudes are not only suspect, they are viewed as "self-serving" and NOT motivated by trying to help someone in need.

I would strongly suggest that if you want someone to comment or provide input for your "research," that you start a thread of your own and CLEARLY state the intent and purpose of what you are "up to" or what you are requesting information about.

For now, I will give you a brief answer to your questions, that should have been obvious, but obviously is not because you only have an "academic" interest and no personal need or "stake" in matter.




Because marriage is a sacred COVENANT, not the cheapened, "animal instinct" sort of thing humanistic society would have us believe (ala Hollywood movies and "stars" actual propensity to marry, and marry, and marry, ...all because "no fault" is a lie to protect the selfish).

So here, as "dumb as it might sound" is the reason so many Betrayed Spouses DON'T do what they "said they would do" before having to confront reality:

"For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."


Adultery IS the "worst" than can happen to someone by someone they love and are "vulnerable" with.

Adultery is the "poorest" that a "love bank" can get, and yet one that the Faithful Spouse will continue to try to make deposits into in the hope that the hemorrhage will end and the account can get out of the [color:"red"]RED[/color] and back into the BLACK.

Adultery is the ultimate in "mental illness" induced by "rationalization," "denial," and "justification" to allow aberrant behavior that is DESTRUCTIVE to all. It is a mental state in the Unfaithful Spouse that is called around here "Alien Abduction" because they behave very much like drug addicts (or rats) scurrying around in the dark trying to keep what they are doing hidden so the "fantasy bubble" doesn't burst and they have to face REALITY.

It is, regardless of one's personal belief, the working out of the "laws of SIN," in the same manner that any physical law can be "ignored" for a time. But then reality eventually "intrudes" and the "effects" of the immutable law is felt. Here is the "law of SIN," in a form that most will have heard and that ALL Wayward Spouses believe, consciously or as part of their self-delusion; "If it feels good, do it." That "lie" began to be so stated in the 1960's as part of the "sexual revolution." It's "kissing cousin" of false beliefs intended to provide self-justification was the concurrent line, "Love means never having to say you are sorry."

Love ALWAYS means having to say you are sorry for things YOU have done that hurt or hinder the marriage and the one you love. The RESPONSE of the Betrayed Spouse is predicated here, not in the delusion of Infidelity. While they both have the "same marital state," usually far from "perfect" or "idyllic," their personal STANDARDS are what directs their responses, at least until SIN causes the blinders to fall into place and the mufflers to be fitted over the ears.

That's enough for now. If you want more "research" for your paper, start your own thread, clearly delineating your objectives and reasons for your questions.

By the way, "Group Therapy" generally sucks, here or anywhere. It is one of the reasons we strongly advocate for Joint Marital Counseling for a couple trying to recover from infidelity.

But this does provide a place for much information and "kindred spirits" who have PRACTICAL, not "academic," interest and experience, who can simply let the person know that they ARE NOT alone or unique in what they are facing.

HI LA

I’m doing much better, for the first time in months I feel at peace with myself,
You know what I mean, when you do the right thing, no matter what happened.But I'm still feeling down sad and scared, I don't know if that makes any sense to you.

All I did is what I should have done when I first found out about the A,
I should have called OMW.

Well now I did.
My situation got worse, my WW hates me; she is blaming me for her humiliation.

She is still very hostile towards me; she is nicer to the kids though.

I didn’t ask her how the meeting went; I would like to know what happened
Though.

She still hates me.
She still blames me for the shame she is enduring, she never took responsibility
For her actions, she always has to be right, so blame others for her bad actions.

213, have you spoken to the OMW today to let her know about this meeting with the pastor?

Your WW is acting according to script. She is very furious at you, but it is for a good reason. You have likely killed this affair and the OM won't return her phone calls.

Thank you for sharing, Joe...

"My situation got worse, my WW hates me; she is blaming me for her humiliation,"

You have only one truth out of three in this sentence Joe...your WW blames you for her humiliation...and you know that is not possible, correct?

The other two truths are judgments you are making; your say believes she hates you...not that she really does...your choice to believe what she believes or not...why choose to believe it?

And your here and now just is...no better or worse...it is...judging harms, Joe. Let that go and you'll find our down, sad and scared a little less...maybe, a lot.

"The meeting with the pastor was not her choice, what happened is she kept trying
To get in touch with OM, or maybe did get in touch with him, his W found out, called the pastor, he called for a meeting, with WW."

What happened with the meeting with all of you? Wasn't that scheduled?

"She is still very hostile towards me; she is nicer to the kids though." You observe hostility or rejection? Attack or punishment? Why are you looking at her and not at you? Steady as you go, Joe...

"I didn’t ask her how the meeting went; I would like to know what happened
Though." Why not call the pastor?

"She still hates me." Do not state this as a truth--it is not...you state this like a fact, in your mind, your thoughts...and it stabs you...please stop. She still believes she hates you. That is truth.

"She still blames me for the shame she is enduring, she never took responsibility
For her actions, she always has to be right, so blame others for her bad actions."

Here is where you stabbing at yourself then stabs others...even from our thoughts, we stab others...she is experiencing shame...and she may have experienced it all her life...I doubt that she has NEVER taken responsibility for her actions...I believe she took responsibility for choosing and marrying you, for having children, for a lot of things...go for clarity, Joe, not solution...be just within yourself and not lured into reactive thinking from your fear.

Takes two for blame to exist, Joe. You were half of the blaming party in your marriage...accepting blame nourishes it as much as giving it. You no longer accept blame, correct? You know that ownership is healthy and blame is damning...you get busy owning that you are full of judgments and expectations...do you feel safer, less fearful, when you say always or never? Feel more right or righteous? Can always or never really be the truth...or even, your truth?

I am not attacking you and telling you you're wrong...I'm asking you to look at how you create resentment, what's your payoff, and to know you are sowing the seeds of bitterness and despair...instead of spitting them out and not allowing them to take root. If you choose to judge, you will not have clarity...you will not understand reality...

That's how I know you're doing better and feeling down, sad and scared...we DJ this way from fear; and you're making a lot of progress in learning to live from love...

Give yourself permission to ask...and revoke your permission to expect...it is a loving act for yourself.

Thank you for updating, posting and sharing.

LA

Thank you LA.

You are right, I use a lot s of harsh words, I still take them as the truth, and it is her truth
May be she does think that she hates me.

I don’t think I hold resentment for her, I still love her with all my heart, I wish I could
Show her the addiction she is in may be she would understand.


I’m still taking responsibility for my part for the state of our marriage and I keep apologizing
For it every time we talk.

But I made it clear that I don’t regret telling OMW.
And That the A is causing her all the humiliation and the agony.

I try to stay away from her these days, while trying to spend some time with the kids too.
It’s a tough act to balance.

She still looks good when she ‘s angry though.
She looks good when she gets out of bed in the morning.
I don’t know why I said that.
Maybe trying to calm myself down a bit.
Sometime I wish I didn’t love her it would be easier, don’t you think?

Any way, should I keep avoiding talking to her for now, give her some time to heel?
I was going to print Suzet's thread on what to expect in withdrawal.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

And give her a copy.
Is it to early now, or it’s a good idea?

I will post when I find out when went on with the pastor’s meeting.

The pastor just called.

I asked him if could arrange a meeting with OM, OMW, and ME, and my WW,

He said he doesn’t think so but he will try.

Asked about meeting with my WW, he said it was short; all she said is that she was sorry
This happened.
He recommended help, and they have a list of counselors.

He recommended me to get IC even if WW doesn’t want to.
I told him I would consider it.

Would that be a good idea at this time, for me to go to counseling, or should I wait?

You going to counseling is smart.
You stop having these 'talks' with your wife is smart.

Protecting your own sense of self is smart.

-----

Why do you supposed your wife hates being around you? You make her feel guilty. It's not what you say or do, it's what she did...and until SHE deals with that, it won't stop.

I'm not recommending you play games, but you have some rights here, right now that you probably don't realize. Right now, if your marriage ended, who is better off, you or her? You are. You have learned from this whole sick event. You have chosen to grow from it. You can use what you know to safe guard your next relationship, and to better show love to whomever you may meet. THAT IS NOT WHAT I HOPE FOR, it is just a statement. I hope it gives you some confidence. She is controlling and manipulating your every thought right now... why not take away her control from you? Give her what she wants...give her NC with you. See how long SHE can maintain it...I would bet ya not too long, with her world collapsing around her... NC with OM, job problems, church problems, UNABLE TO SPEAK WITH HER HUSBAND (which is a much larger issue than you are capable of giving yourself credit for right now--I believe God tells us he makes wives yearn for their husbands--so, just let God work His grace on a husband that is willing to forgive his wife)...

Anyways, I'm sure you don't know me...but, I'm a BH who is now almost 3 years into recovery...or maybe 4, gosh, I can't remember how long it's been...!

-hang in there

Thanks RK,
I think I know you already.
I'm glad you're in recovery, I hope to be their soon.

Joseph, if the Pastor wants to try to arrange a meeting between the four of you, he can do so. But my opinion would be not to do that for a fewreasons.

1. OM and OMW are Christians (from what you said earlier) and, as such, are subject to obeying God no matter what. Therefore, their counseling would be based upon Scripture, not "nice ideas," though practical nice ideas could be incorporated where they support God's commands.

2. Don't get me wrong, nice ideas can certainly help, as many here on MB can attest. But there is a marked difference in counseling because of the issue of "who is in control" of someone's life...self or God?

3. Counseling of any kind is unlikely to have any "positive" affect on your wife at this point and won't have any effect until AFTER she is out of Withdrawal and actually trying, however feebly at first, to recover your marriage.

4. You seem to be suffering from a common ailment of Betrayed Spouses, confused and wildly swinging emotions and grasping at any straw that floats by in the hope that it will save your marriage. If you find that the emotional swings are high and interferring with work or clear thinking, consider getting an anti-anxiety prescription from your Doctor. I used Welbutrin (the same thing used help someone stop smoking) for about 6 months. It really does help smooth out the "highs and lows" and allows you think clearly. So if you think you need something like that, see your Doctor.

5. There should be NO Contact between the "affairees," and no "meeting" where they could attempt to justify their choice for adultery. NO CONTACT for life between the OM and your wife is a consequence of the adultery and the only way to fully recover. It is often very hard for years, for the participants, so the sooner it starts, the quicker they get through Withdrawal, and can begin Recovery.

6. The Pastor is NOT a counselor to you. He has a "vested interest" because of the school. He may have a responsibility to the OM and OMW if they are members of his church, as per his Matthew 18:15-20 responsibility for church discipline of believers.


Now, if you'll forgive me, a few words of "tough love," if I may.

Your marriage is already over and you need to understand that. It ended when your wife chose, for whatever reasons she chose, to break the covenant and commit adultery. Obedience to God has little, if any meaning to her, because the commandment is clear (and not a suggestion that one can accept or reject at will), "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery."

It is over at this point because your wife is NOT repentant, does NOT want to be married to you right now, and is hanging around for her own reasons, most of which center around HER and her fears and emotions, not you, yours, or the children's.

"Plan A" that MB talks about is NOT a marital recovery plan. It is two things that are essential. First, it is a plan of self improvement based upon learning things like what Emotional Needs are and how important they are to all of us...and making the changes that will make you a better, and more desirable, person REGARDLESS of the outcome this mess, recovery or divorce.

Second, it is a way to show your spouse the differences between the fantasy affair that is fading and becoming exposed to all of it's flaws and a person who loves the WS regardless of the betrayal, the "prince" if you will, who was always there but had gone "unnoticed." It provides a "rock" to lean on as the thoes of withdrawal hit and a solid foundation upon which to build a newer, and better, marriage....one founded in new knowledge, earned trust, and true sacrifical love for one another.'

It is a LONG road back. Virtually all of them (Recovery attempts) start from the perspective of "I'll try, but I don't think it's possible. I don't think I could ever love him/her that way again."

Guess what, you do get there and you get beyond there. But it takes commitment, work, and time. It takes patience, learning, enduring, and love.

If you were born again believers I would point you to the sacrifice of love made by Jesus, but that would be inappropriate given your previous response, so I'll simply say that there is an example that can be followed, but only when one comes to realize who Jesus is and what He did for ME. Even that does NOT "guarantee" a recovered marriage, because it always takes BOTH husband and wife, together in faith and together in working toward recovery, no matter how hard it seems at times.

So, while you need to face the fact that the marriage you HAD is already over, you CAN choose to "start over" and begin a new marriage. If you choose that route, be forewarned that for potentially a very long time it will seem as though YOU are doing all the work. You will be. Yes, it IS unfair, but we are not talking about "fairness" here. There is nothing "fair" in adultery, and precious little that is "fair" in a couple trying to recover from the worst disaster to strike any marriage. So tighten the belt, buckle down, batten the emotional hatches, and prepare for a long "battle" to oust the alien and win back the "love of your life."

This is when we each take a long hard look at what our wedding vows meant to US.

And know that you can come here for support anytime, even if it's just a hug. Hugs are GOOD by the way. So are smiles. So is a "good cry" every now and then. We all started out bloodied and beaten, lying of the canvas from a "sucker punch" to the groin and the solar plexus. It was hard to breath, let alone bear the pain and STAND UP.

Joe, you are standing, but your knees are still weak. Time to let your "corner" (those at MB) help get you ready for the next "round."

Hang in there. Keep trying. Mistakes are not fatal.

P.S. If YOU have identified personal flaws that you want to work with an Individual Counselor on, feel free to do so. But what your MARRIAGE needs is Joint Marital Counseling with a trained counselor who is committed to saving marriages.

God bless.

Thanks FH.

this helps a lot.
it's easier said then done but I'm learning.

Some times I wonder why am I doing this.

Yesterday I got home they was having dinner, she didn’t get me anything.
I kissed and hugged the kids, and went upstairs to take a shower, before I go to get dinner.

She stormed in the bathroom, stating that she had to go to a meeting,

Me:
What meeting.
WW:
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
I F***** hate you I don’t want to see you, OMW is calling people from school telling
Them that OM are having affairs with other people, blablabla.
I can’t be in the same house with you anymore, you have to leave.
Me:
I am not leaving, I didn’t do anything wrong.
WW:
It’s easier for one person to leave then all 3 of us.
Me:
I’m not holding you W; you can leave without the kids.
WW:
I’m their caregiver I will not leave without them you *****???!!
Me:
You are upsetting the kids, I will not argue with you, not in front of the kids.
You can leave if you wish, and I can hire somebody at work and I can take care
Of the kids.

This is when she called me bad names and opened the shower door, I thought she was going to hit me, but she slammed the glass door back so hard it almost shattered.
Then she left the room.
I never seen her that angry before

I finished my shower, went out to the other room, asked her if I have time to go get something to eat before she goes to her meeting, she said I’m not going, I’m to upset
To go to now.

I told her come downstairs calm down and talk to me calmly, if you can’t do it
Wait till you calm down.

I don’t remember what I said, but some important phrases.

I never forced you to stay, I even told you before I knew you had a PA,
“ I lover you with all my heart, but if you want to go be with OM go I’m not holding you back”. Remember?

We both love the kids we both can’t live without them.
WW:
I can’t be in the same house with you anymore I will let you see the kids,
Me:
Good because I’m not leaving the house, you can fix the downstairs bed room and
Make it yours, if you like.
Beside I cannot afford to pay for this house and another place to live,
You will have to get a job.
WW:
Are you threatening me?
Me:
No just telling you the truth.
Moving out will not solve anything, and will not change anything,
I’m not responsible for what OMW is doing; all I did was tell her the truth
Which she was entitled to?
I’m sorry you feel this way, but I can’t help you with that.
I was trying to be a welcome mat for you, I was used as a doormat, and you even wiped your feet on me.
I’m not your father, I was done being disrespected, it is not ok for you to go out and have SF with OM, and me sit down and not do anything about it, I’m not sorry for telling OMW, I’m sorry for my part in our bad marriage before the A.
And I’m sorry you feel this way right now.
I heard you say that you hated me, do you hate me, or you hate yourself?
You are in a very hard place right now, you are very angry, and hurt.
And I never make decisions when I’m that angry, and neither should you.
I need to go out for dinner now I will see you later.

I went and had dinner, came back about an hour later, she was calmer, I tucked the kids in, asked her to join me downstairs for a cup of tea, she said she doesn’t want any,
It would keep her awake all night, I said just a green tea or chamomile tea, NO thanks she said.

She did join me thought, I was very calm and southing, I asked her to talk to me as a friend not her husband, I told her that she should tell her best friend which is my DD’s teacher, before she find’s out from somebody else, and that she would understand,
She said yes like my other ex best friend did, I told her this is my advice, the choice is hers.
I told her that I know exactly how she is feeling; she just lost somebody she loved,
She started crying and stated again that he was the only person that told her she was beautiful and she believed him, I said like I told you before this have nothing to do with him and everything to do with you.
(My w have BDD body dimorphic disorder, in another word she thinks she is ugly)

My wife just turned 40 she is 5’10” 160 lbs, piercing green eyes, flawless skin,
Long dark hair. in another word a stunning gorgeous woman.

And that’s a fact. She just doesn’t believe it.

Then I told her even if one of us moved out let’s say I move out, what difference is it going to make, I ‘m at work all day anyway, I will still want to come home to see the kids
Everyday, so the only difference is that I will be sleeping somewhere else, do you think this is going to change the way you’re feeling now.

No answer, besides I’m tired now I need to go to bed.

Me: Good night, do you need a hug
WW: No.

I did say a lot of other things, like usual I was preaching; I don’t remember what I said
But it wasn’t disrespectful and I was always calm, I was glad that I could calm her down.
for some reason her words don't hurt me anymore,this is
the first time after D day, that I see her cry,
I feel more in control of myself now, I did not cry.
I did feel bad to see her in this state, but I didn't feel
guilty.

This morning I talked to her for a minute about other things she seemed ok.
I don’t know.

Did I talk too much?
I think a lot of things did get through her fog I don’t know
I guess I’ll wait and see.

I just remembered somewhere during the conversation I told her that she was the most important person in my life, she does come before the kids, and that I still love her
And that this marriage is dead, I want to start fresh.
And if she thought that I didn’t care for her then why am I going through all this agony?

Of course she never answered to that.
I don’t know if it was the right time to tell her that, oh well it’s already out,
I should have kept this to myself.

I don't know if NC is on.
I never told her about NC because at this point she doesn't care, she doesn't want to save the marriage.
should I tell her anyway, and how to go on telling her?

Sounds like you've got something going there, 21. You're working the MB program like a pro. You're saying all the right things and hanging on to your temper very well. Good on you, sir!

Thanks LH, I needed that.
Thanks alot.

Don't thank me, 21. You're the man doing all the hard work. You just keep it up, okay? Stay strong, pardner.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Your reverse babble was awesome. Great job!

I’m trying LH I’m too terrified right now, she is a very stubborn woman and she
Can keep resentment forever.
But you know what I’m at peace with myself, because I know that I’m doing the right thing.

I don’t know what else to do.
Should I talk to her?
Should I tell her about the fog and the addiction?
Knowing that I already told her it’s an addiction and a fantasy, and she denied it.
Her words where I’ not addicted to anything.

I can’t even ask her for NC because she doesn’t want to work on the marriage
At this point.
She denies having contact, but I have a feeling they’re still talking.
I’m trying to find out.

No, don't bother trying to talk to her about anything more complicated than tying her shoes. She simply is not ready to hear anything remotely connected with "relationship," reconciliation, etc. She's an alien right now, 21, just beamed down from the mother ship and she doesn't speak the same language we do. Logic is completely foreign to her so don't expect to hear anything approaching logical concepts from her. Don't waste your time trying.

No wayward spouse shows any desire to work on the marriage at this point. Don't worry about it. I'm surprised you didn't hear the oldie, but goodie, "I WAS going to work on the marriage, but not now."

The key here is to understand the alien is not going to change back into your wife overnight. If you expect rapid progress, you'll hurt the chances you have to recover your marriage. Patience, patience, patience.

Keep on snooping to find out what the contact is and let OMW know what is happening too. Don't worry about asking for NC at this point. You've already told her about the need for her to stop seeing this other man. There will be plenty of time to reinforce the fact you aren't going to accept a third person in your marriage.

Keep on snooping. You need to know how they are communicating and what they're talking about. OMW will be interested in anything you find out. Keep in contact with her. She's your strongest ally at this point.

Hang in there, 21. Things are percolating in Fantasyland. It's not nearly as wonderful a place as it was. They're having to deal with a lot of adversity and splinters are beginning to show up in the facade.

[color:"red"] Should I tell her about the fog and the addiction? [/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

if you do ... wear a cup !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ... she may kick you

NO

don't teach
preach
blahblahblah

she cannot hear you until she extracts her head outta her wazoo

Pep

Hi, Joe...

Thank you for saying you're terrified right now...you know you're in that fear place when you say

"I don’t know what else to do."

You are a human being, not a human doing. This was important to learn when I was in your shoes. Listen to LH...he's right...your fear wants you to take action to stop your pain and FIX this...get this lesson...fear is giving you half your pain...breathe and know this isn't "fixable" it's livable...for right now.

Be you, Joe...get to know you deeper, all of you...your first reaction to fear is to get rid of the fear...yet you are not panicking...you're not jumping into the future...you are looking at the present...this is great, isn't it? Different reaction maybe, a little?

You are monitoring...do your checks only a set number of times a day, calmly...

The inbetween times, breathe deeply, smile, love yourself...play with your children...choose your thoughts...practice choosing your thoughts...

Do not allow yourself to educate her...that's the fear...the wishful part of you which believes, "If only she could see"...accept she can't see right now...know that...believe it...like LH says...and instead, share what you know about you...

"I feel terrified. Do we have any milk left?"

Small stuff...true stuff to you...not her.

No educating on any subject but your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs...

You are calm...you are used to having her in your head...spilling your thoughts...contain them...they are yours. Keep your mind on them...they are clues to you about you...worth knowing. Breathe.

You are doing well...there is no next step...stay respectful...separate and equal...each day feels like a week or more...it isn't...it's one day. You're on pain-time...long, drawn out and can be dizzingly slow...breathe more...hug, congratulate, say "I love you" to YOU more...

Be present when your WW is present...stop your expectations...see her as new...which won't be difficult...and do not judge.

You're doing this, Joe. You are on a hero's journey...and yes, hero's are terrified, enraged, vulnerable, frustrated and through this journey, they learn why...they learn their limits and their power...you are on this journey.

LA

ROFL!!!!

Oh, Pep...you're pricless. I'm gonna start calling you Master...card.

LA

Hi LA.
did you read my morning post on what happened yesterday?

she is a little calmer today, should I tell her that what
she said yesterday didn't hurt me and she is welcome to vent her
anger any time she wants.
because this is the truth, I felt in control, espacialy
when she started crying, and I didn't wonder why.
is that bad?
why did I feel good when I saw her tears?
did I stoped loving her?
or I just got stronger?
like I said I am in some sort of peacful place right now,
not that it doesn't hurt anymore but I'm at peace knowing
that I'm doing the right thing.
I don't know if I'm making any sense.

Do I love her or it’s the competitiveness in me?
I never backed down from a challenge in my life.
Do I think it’s a challenge?
Yes?
I feel good now because I think I’m in more control then before.
I'm just thinking outloud.

I was going to give her or maybe read to her this letter
I wrote.
I know you are in a very bad spot right now.
I know exactly how you’re feeling. I’ve been feeling this way for a long time.

I know how I’m feeling, and I believe I’m doing the right thing.

When the war started back home I was 13, dad was overseas, we couldn’t get in touch with him for one whole year. I had to grow up fast and be the man of the house and I did.
I took care of my family, 4 siblings and my mother. I had to carry a gun to protect
Our house.

31 years later I find myself facing another kind of war, only this one hurts way more, it hurts without a wound, it hurts without a cut, and it hurts without ever being shot.

It’s still affecting my family, my new family my own family.

If trying to keep my family together, is wrong then I don’t want be right.
If loving my wife and forgiving her, no matter what she has done is wrong, I never want to be right.
If what I’m doing is wrong I don’t want to be right.

I used to love you for what you do, this was judging you and I’m sorry for that.
Now I love you for who you are, and it feels great, it even hurts better,
Knowing it’s the right way the only way to love.

You’re anger outburst didn’t hurt me that day, it was you’re own emotions and you shared them with me, for the first time in our life you shared you’re feelings with me.
Feel free to vent you’re anger at me anytime you want if it makes you feel better,
But please not in front of the kids.
S was looking at you in shock like who is this woman, yelling at daddy,
DD came back later and you heard her ask me why mommy said mean things to you daddy?
I did not answer, I didn’t know what to answer.



I've been avoiding talking to her lately, she is always angry.
should I give her some space?
should I stay away?
should I go out see some friends?
should I take the kids out? she wouldn't like this, but I need to spend some time with the kids, without the negative energie she is projecting.

21 -

Your didn't stop loving her. You changed. And your love for her changed. No less deep. Just different. Independent. It's a healthy love. Same thing happened to me. I went to the center of the storm and got calm. Ghandi. EVERYTHING felt different.

Don't be discoraged when you get sucked back into fray. It will happen but it will only be temporary. Now that you know this new way to live and practice, practice, practice it every day, you'll never again have to live in the fury of the storm. With no center. At the mercy of the winds.

Are you with me? Cause I'm following you. VERY similar situation.

Your response to the big night was perfect. Great 'centered' speak. You're an inspiration.

I wouldn't tell her she's welcome to vent her anger. Tell her she's welcome to SHARE. And that it's safe for her to share with you without fear of you judging her. That's all. Leave the hurt out of it. But if you DO hurt, tell her. Hurt is OK. Judging is not.

Marriage is owning then sharing your feelings. LA taught me that. BTW I'm an LA protoge so you'll hear me use a lot of her concepts. They work for me and they'll work - are working I can see it! - for you.

You're doing a fantastic job. And LA is right. What you are doing is NOTHING short of heroic. A hero's journey is difficult, lonely and full of self-doubt. Luckily we both have this board to act as a guidepost. Great isn't it!!

[color:"red"]"I feel terrified. Do we have any milk left?" [/color]

I am in love with this approach!

EGG-ZEE-LENT'E

Pep

bump

I love LA's reference to "pain-time". I am living that right now. But boy does it ever help to find that calm in the center of the storm.
--d2m3b.

i just added some more to my last post.

Good evening, Joe,

Do you know where the urge to write to your WW is coming from?

From your urge to share...because you are avoiding talking to her...and that's okay, as long as you know why.

Building your trust in yourself is important. Starts simple, nowhere near easy. Know this. You could make a goal of sharing one line, outloud, simply stated, from your letter...not reading, stating...inserted within the day, and then make it two...you'll find this practice like a birth for you...opening in words what you've had inside you all your life...

You're sharing your life with us...in written form. It is still sharing...the difference is fear...we do not fear reading you...who you are...your WW does...and written words can be distorted, misunderstood and they are easier to filter in our minds...it's called reading between the lines...and we do that with body language, tone and facial expressions, too...until we train ourselves not to...

Written words can be more powerful, as well, like a vow, an oath, a commitment...in writing. Look inside and see if your desire comes from this...where you view written statements as more truthful.

Knowing this inside you may aid you in opening your verbal communication...to know why we have the desire is as important as knowing we have it...

I believe you have become much safer to be shared with and to share with yourself...this is peace in the eye of the storm...that separateness...knowing you are not causing her tears and her anger...helps greatly...living in truth, does.

Her anger still repels you, though...and I would like to encourage you to stay present and to not believe she is angry unless she states she is angry. Anger comes from fear...and it touches our own fear to be around it...even when we know we are not the cause...because we have struggled all our lives to be the cure to it in ourselves and others. Staying present with an angry person--THE angry person will help you feel your fear, know it, hold it and maybe for the first time, understand it...find out if it triggers disapproval, rejection, frustration, inadequacy, rebellion...what inside you speaks back to anger without words?

You don't have to follow her around...staying present for ten minutes...again, maybe twenty...for you. You doing this for you...to know more about you...can you do that?

And no...your boundaries are the same as your standards...you no longer allow yourself to yell, insult or DJ...so you must enforce these boundaries when she yells, insults or DJs...

How can you enforce a boundary when you avoid? Your presence matters...you ripple...even as she does...so if your first boundary enforcement is to state, "I very much desire to hear your thoughts, WW. I cannot do so when you yell. If you continue to raise your voice, I will remove myself from this room." Lovingly stated, even whispered.

This is healthy for your children to see and know...we don't damage our children from yelling--we damage them from reacting to yelling by yelling, withdrawing, brooding, sniping, SDs and our own AOs...when we stand by our boundaries, calmly, firmly and respectfully, we are demonstrating our human power...and limits...and choice.

This goes with your Lebanon experience growing up...seemed like the attack was where the fear was...if there wasn't the danger then there wouldn't be the fear...yet, it was having to defend, be alert, wary, daily fearful and still live that damaged the most...because there couldn't be that respectful response...no one could show you the right way to be...you only had one way...it's what war does...like in marriage...when we reach for the weapon of last defense...and overlook all the available choices inbetween.

Wow...I got really off, didn't I? I feel honored to know you and to hear your journey, be here with you, along with so many others praying and pulling for you. You're sharing well and true...know this...see if this ebullience, to include your WW in your experience comes from all this newness in you...which really isn't new...it is you without judgment...and that changing everything.

She will be there for you to share fully with...just not now...withdrawal is difficult...like a reckoning...know how you felt when you learned the way you had been, thinking more about how to make the marriage fair, maybe get more of what you wanted for you, instead of the marriage...you felt a little wrecked, shocked...upset with yourself? You started looking at your part...because you had a great desire to save your marriage...

And she is now coming into the time of losing the drug she's been using...and a slow realization of her power...to destroy...to wreck, shock...which greatly increases her desire for the drug...it is a slow reckoning and a terribly painful one...and what does she have for her carrot? Nothing. The more reality seeps in, the greater her expectation will grow that there is no way for her amend, repair or erase the damage...she believes love is earned, as well as punishment, so she'll see staying in the marriage as punishing...which is coming from her, inside...so she will have her reckoning without a reward in sight...and your choice to stay, to love, to rebuild, will be so blinding, it will hurt...know this, when the days drag, and your pain jumps up and settles down...what's she's going to do to go from wayward to faithful is a journey worth being around for...enduring because she will do it for redemption...for herself, you, the marriage and her family...it's a hard journey, Joe.

Continue to thank her for sharing...without LBs, 'k? Get safer and safer...know when you are giving her permission to share, in your mind, because you do not have that right...and hold to what you already know, it's an honor to be shared with...even when it hurts...and it hurts better (BRILLIANT wording).

These are the same questions from last weekend, Joe...about what to do this weekend...what did you think of my last suggestions, the ones from last weekend?

Maybe MDC, Dru or Pep can think of some others...you know my intent...for you to learn that your presence matters...not that I want you to suffer...but to flourish, even where others have strong emotions...you matter.

Trust her to know your S was shocked and your DD was upset...you believe she does not see...she does not know because she does not DO...change that belief. Respect is knowing she is as capable as you are...knowing, seeing...what she chooses to shut out will be shut out...do not attempt to show her...which tells her she's defective, missing stuff, not smart or capable...and it will echo what she hears in her head, over and over again. Do not participate in that.

All those books you got...change your priority to Between Parent and Child...focus on that one...because you're safe and your children are looking to you to teach them...not your wife...and your wife will learn as you teach them...or not. Her choice.

In your corner,

LA

Earlier, you asked about whether you should have some IC for yourself or whether the two of you neede joint counseling.

I will give you my analogy - - -

A marriage is somewhat like a car. If it is broken, it may be helped by a mechanic (counselor). There are some parts that are not working properly. If all the mechanic has to work with are broken parts, s/he can not fix the car. The parts must be in good working order before the car can be in good working order.

Do you follow me on that?

Good morning LA

Quote:
“I feel honored to know you and to hear your journey”

No LA I’m the honored, and the blessed one to have found MB and to share
My pain with such wonderful people, I have been humbled by this experience
In my life, I always thought that I was invincible, but whom am I kidding here,
I’m human after all; I cry like everybody else, I bleed like everybody else.
And I always believed that “ sharing happiness is double the joy, and sharing pain is half the sorrow”.

I printed your last reply, you are an angel, and you always know what to say
To make people feel good, and stating is what I meant about reading the letter for her.
There are a lot of things I want to tell her, but like everybody says patience is a virtue.

I still don’t know if NC is fully on OM friend called me yesterday and stated that
OM is on a leave of absence from school, and that his MC did advise him with NC,
Which is good news because my WW, is so fogged up I know she is trying to establish
Contact, I can’t do anything about that, since she doesn’t want to work on the marriage, she just wants out for now.

Actually she wants me out, which I told her this is not going to happen, and I’m
Sticking with it.

Quote:
“Because you are avoiding talking to her”

I’m avoiding talking to her because she doesn’t want to talk to me she wants me out of the house; she already stated that, this is why I’m trying to give her some space.
This weekend I will catch up on some work needed on the house, so this will be a good thing.

Quote:
“Trust her to know your S was shocked and your DD was upset”

I do trust her with that she knew this was hurtful for the kids.

Quote:
Wow...I got really off, didn't I?

No you didn’t I always like you’re replies you are an angel, I learned a lot from you
You are a great person. And it’s an honor getting help from you.


Cinderella:
My daughter’s favorite princess.
Thank you for the tip, it’s weird that you bring this analogy. I told my wife last week,
That marriage is like a car some people hear a noise and fix it right away
Before something brakes, others don’t pay attention to it until it breaks,
Well it’s broken we can chose to fix it or get rid of it.
We learned a lot from this we can take what we learned and go find 2 strangers
To apply it on, or we can put everything behind us and start fresh and apply it
On our self.
I don’t know if anything went through her fog, but I had to try.

Thank you Cinderella, we are on the same wave, you are great.

UPDATE TO MY PRIOR POST.

Sunday I took my son to an air show she wasn’t to thrilled about that.
But she didn’t want to go either; we had a great time he got to go on a b25 bomber
And sit in the front gunner seat; he got to go on a half-track quad 50-caliber gun turret.
He got to see the f22 raptor in flight.
But it wasn’t the same without my WW.

When I got home she was in her silent bad mood again, I downloaded the pictures on my
Pc and asked her if she wanted to look at them, she said NO.

She was putting DD cloth away, I got close to her and whispered, and it wasn’t the same without you.
She said rudely I don’t know what to say.
I asked her if she was ok without me around, she nodded her head with a yes gesture,
I replied I don’t think so you did miss S.

Then I told her that all I’m trying to do is keep my family together, if this is wrong
Then I don’t want to be right, and if loving my wife no matter what she does is wrong,
I don’t want be right either.

And that I do love her and I will never leave her, and if she wants to leave I can’t stop her.

She said “ I can’t trust you anymore and I didn’t hate you before you went and told his wife, I know what I did was wrong, and you should be the one feeling this way, but this is the way I feel”

I told her who said that I trust you right now, because I don’t, I said that I care for you.
And trust could be rebuilt.
An no matter what happens between us you should know that I’m the only constant thing
In your life and I will take care of you either way.
And who knows a few years from now you might thank me for staying, or you will
Regret, leaving me.

Then I asked her: did you think he was going to leave his family for you?

WW:
I never expected him to leave his family for me.

I should have said something their but I was shocked with her answer so I just stood their.
I remembered LH’s words don’t try to reason with her.
Her answer didn’t make any sense to me, I’m sure it did to her though…
At least she is admitting that what she did was wrong.

Then I told her that what she said that night did not hurt me, she said I wasn’t meaning to hurt you I was just telling you how I felt.

I said: I respect that. And feel free to vent your feelings any time you like, I will always listen.

Then I said you know I loved you for what you used to do for me and this was the wrong way to love, it was more judging then loving, and I’m sorry for that, now I know better, I’ve grown a lot since this happened, I learned now that I love you for who you are, and it feels better, it even feels good when it hurts, it just feels right.

And WW I don’t hate you… I’m sorry you feel this way, I know you feel like it’s the end of the world, I was their a few month ago, it will get better, stay strong and keep your head up high, you have 2 kids to take care of.

And do you really think I’m ugly?
She said no I didn’t mean it this way.
Then she started crying and said, “ I don’t want to talk anymore, not about ugliness”
I said I’m sorry I was talking about myself.
(It’s a sore subject to her she thinks she is ugly and OM is the only person that told her she was beautiful and she believed him)
I shouldn’t have gone there but I was talking about myself. Oh well.

I said a few more things I shouldn’t have said.
Like I know why the A started, I know how it started, I know how it should
End, and I know how to rebuild.
And it won’t be easy.

should I tell my WW that for OMW she is the OW
and they want her out of their life and they want NC
according to the MC.
and that the sooner she realises that this is over
the sooner she is going to heal?

or just save my breath for now?


I don’t know if this is a good idea or not, but I ordered 2 books on BDD.
Which is the Body dimorphic disorder my wife suffers from.
I will read it and offer it for her, even though she claims that she knows
Everything about BDD.

Any comment is appreciated.

Hey, Joe...

Thank you for the update. Can you allow your WW to own her own stuff? Her BDD is hers...you can't cause, control or cure it. It's hers.

She has a payoff in seeing herself in that way...it isn't an illness without a benefit...

Her BDD did not cause her affair. Please respect she makes her choices...for her own reasons.

Instead of asking questions, Joe, try stating what is yours...and owning it. "I believe you see me as ugly. I feel replaced and erased. I believe I am defective." If that is what you're saying by asking if she see's you as ugly, then own it. It's yours. Not hers. Who you are, what you look like to yourself is what matters...not to others. We're all equal...beauty remains...God made us beautiful souls...without judgment, without comparison...which is false security...we're all the same, aren't we?

There is a reason our souls can't be seen at first glance...so they cannot be falsely judged by packaging.

Your posts are full of shoulds, Joe...how about banning that word from your life for a week? Don't should on yourself...choose differently.

There's no ownership in shoulds or have tos...they eliminate choice. What you are choosing to do or not is up to you. If you want to know a should, ask yourself...if I do or say this, am I being honest? Am I sharing or manipulating to get a desired reaction? There's no respect in the second alternative, is there?

When you eliminate shoulds from your vocabulary, inside your head and your mouth...then you'll stop thinking of how your WW should be...how others should be and what they have to do...because you don't allow yourself to judge that way; falsely control that way and self-deceive.

Do not treat your WW as a child...she is your equal and your partner...as capable, whole and complete as you are. Respect is knowing that. No educating, informing or getting her to see life your way will protect you from the truth that you are not protected. She's separate and equal, Joe...listen and repeat. Demonstrate respect for her by knowing she's separate from you...and respect for yourself in knowing you're not her cure. Cause. Or control.

You can do this. Listen and repeat. Stay present. How's the choice to be in the presence of anger going?

LA

Thank you LA

I thought I’d buy the book to learn more about her condition, so I can see her point of view, because this is very important to her, and it was part of what caused the A.
She stated that yesterday after she asked me why did I by that book.

She said that her condition was gone when she was having the A, now she feels ugly,
All over again.

I said I respect your honesty, but I don’t think the A made it go away, I believe
You made it go away, I read some of the book and I know how much you’re hurting
I know that some people can’t leave the house, because of this disease,
It’s like any other illness some people have it worse then others,
It doesn’t mean that it makes it easier to treat, but you need to know that it’s
Curable and that there is some different options to cure it, and if I can help 1%
By reading this book and knowing what I can do to help, then it’s fine with me.

I believe you told me that you hated me that night, is that still you’re truth?
Yes she whispered.
I respect your honesty, and I don’t hate you for that, but I can’t help you either
It’s you’re feelings and you’re choice.

I’m not doing this so you don’t hate me, I’m doing this so I don’t hate me.

You are still my wife and I don’t want you looking down look up and keep
You’re chin up.

I don’t have any reason to keep my chin up anymore. She said.
Yes you do you are an awesome person, and a great mother, the kids are looking up to
You and they are learning from us.
I can’t imagine any one raising them except you and me.

I am at peace with myself right now but I’m terrified.
She said why?
Because I feel that I’m no longer in control of my future, and I hate it.
A few month ago I felt like it was the end of the world for me, I felt betrayed,
Stabbed in the back, angry, I didn’t want to live anymore.
I feel better now; I got my self-respect back.
I hope you will feel better to.
Ww, you stated yesterday that you didn’t trust me, I understand there is more then one concern that you have I’m going to give reassurance for at least one of them that I know about, and I did give her a solid way to trust me on this one.
Then I asked her to listen to her heart and trust me, and if she wanted to vent I’m here
For her, she nodded her head with a yes gesture. I have a feeling that something is getting through, her fog; maybe it’s wishful thinking. But she is getting calmer and a little more open.
I always feel at peace when I talk to her, but may be I should talk less, and say more.
I’m doing more though.

LA I know exactly what you mean by should.
I understand I’ve always been this way, I’ve always did what I should do, sometimes it’s what I want to do, sometime it’s not.

But what if what I want to do is not the right thing to do?
How to chose, how to tell?
Am I confused enough?
I just thought of something
Could it be that us BS are in a fog to?
I think we are.

I used to call her a couple of times a day to see how is she doing.
She said she feels like I’m checking on her.
I wasn’t I called her because I wanted to, I called her because I wanted to hear her voice.
I called her because she is always nicer to talk to over the phone.

I still want to call her but I don’t anymore, should I?

Oh, JOE! I'm LOL'ing...about the way you ended your post in a should...

LOL...not laughing at you at all...your honesty is right there...you are brave...you do ask for what you want an answer to...

I don't DO shoulds...Why are you not calling her anymore? Because she said she feels checked up on? That's her feeling, isn't it? Her belief? You respect that and call anyway, in my book...because you know your intent...which is pure...you love her voice, it's your way to connect...she's on your mind and you reach for the phone. That's your truth. Living by your truth is important.

Is it a love buster to call? If your WW wasn't in an affair or withdrawal, would this be a love buster? Is it only twice a day or ten?

I would use those twice a day calls to up your honesty..."Hi. I'm calling because I was thinking of you and that time we went to ____. I loved that trip."

"Hi. I'm calling because your voice sounds like love to me; I have it in my heart and I like it in my ear."

Okay, I'm mushy...you get the idea. You aren't arguing with her...you are stating your truth. "I hear you believe I'm checking up on you." Just restate...no argument. You know your intent; trust you.

Here is where you argue, which negates her:

"You are still my wife and I don’t want you looking down look up and keep You’re chin up."

You are telling her what you want for HER...no domain, Joe. No still, either. Were you trying to convey you acknowledge her anger, frustration and depression? Then state that. "I believe you are anger, frustrated and depressed, is that correct?"

She says:
"I don’t have any reason to keep my chin up anymore. She said."

And you argue, negate her statement, instead of listen and repeat...You say:

"Yes you do you are an awesome person, and a great mother, the kids are looking up to You and they are learning from us."

Simply show respect, Joe. "I hear you choose to believe you have no reason to be proud of yourself, to hold your chin up, is that correct?"

Again, I know you want to share, to comfort, console, lift up, CONTROL your WW. Please don't do that. It's abusive. Your intent is to know she is in charge of her stuff...her feelings are valid to her...respect them. Same with her beliefs.

If she says, "I don't think we can make it." Listen and repeat. No argument. That's her stuff, not yours...you're not her cure, Joe. She is.

"I believe with all my heart we can have a better marriage than before. I agree to disagree." And smile. It's true.

I don't know about BS fog...read about it here...I don't think I had it...but then, how would I know? I know it was very difficult to stop being the cure to others, to be respectful, to own only what is mine...and it saved my marriage. I know this as a fact, Joe. I know by trying to change my H's feelings...telling him not to feel what he felt, think what he thought or believe what he believed, I was abusing my partner.

You said some awesome stuff, Joe. I'm not taking that away from you at all...Remember what you've already said and do not repeat. There are only a couple of mantras to know. Restating your goal "I don't do divorce, I do marriage." "Continued you contact is continuing your affair."

I can't think of others. I cut out the ILYs which were difficult because they were part of my routine...rhythmically said...Since I made my love a burden on my H's shoulders...his responsiblity, I stopped saying this unless I could state it as mine...my choice.

So, without the should...what is your choice, Joe? What's your truth? When you have a should, distinguish if it is the old you, wondering how she will react, or if it is the respectful you, choosing from your standards...then you'll have your answer. And it is yours. No shoulds involved...doing the right thing is holding to your code...and if you love hearing her voice, love hearing your own...sing in the shower, whisper words of encouragement and validation to yourself...I used to take a deep breath and say, "I am."

This helped immensely with feeling replaced, erased or not of consequence. Aided me in knowing I count, without a word spoken or an action taken.

You are thriving in self, Joe. You are loving by choice. Giving time for withdrawal to continue...becoming safe to be shared with...

LA

HI everybody

Things might be getting a hair calmer, maybe a little better.
I’m not sure about NC established yet.
I know no cell phone contact no e-mail. But this doesn’t mean anything.

I know all of OM friends including the church know, and OMW is keeping an eye
On him.

Yesterday I gave her the solid guarantee for one of her worries about me doing something, and I asked her if she have any other worries I would find a way to guarantee
Those won’t happen, she only needs to tell me about them.

Then I repeated to her that I’m not doing this so she doesn’t hate me,
I’m doing it so I don’t hate me.

Then I asked her if she believes that I still care for her, with tears in her eyes she answered in a whispering voice, “yes”.
I told her this is all that matters now. And I left the room and went on my computer.

She came a little later to show me DD’s memory book that my WW put together
Page by page for the whole class, she made 25 binders 3” thick each, page by page.
I told her wow this was a lot of work, baby you should be proud of yourself,
I am proud of you for doing this when you didn’t have to, especially when you weren’t paid for it.

Now I keep asking myself.

Why did she cry?
Why do I feel good when she cries?
If I love her that much wouldn’t I be feeling bad?
What to do next?
Tell her more about my feelings?
I found out that the best clinic for her BDD in the west coast is about 25 miles from us.
I don’t want to tell her what to do but I need to give her the info.
I will take it slowly from now on.
I need to tell her that OM family want NC and that I would like her to respect that.
And it will be good for her if she want to move on with her life, since OM is willing
For his own reasons to stay with his family, either for the kids or for his marriage.
And the sooner NC is established the sooner she will begin to heal.

Because of "heartpain."

Because "plan A" behavior is beginning to have an effect.

Because her self image has taken a huge beating and your kind words are felt more deeply than they might be when "all is well." They are a "window" into the heart of the real you, not the tough "Man's Man" guys like to project.

Because you love her, not just like or lust after her.

Stay the course. You're doing well.

Thanks FH

like your love island storry.

"Now I keep asking myself."

I'm more interested in the answers you give yourself.

LA

I’m sorry LA good point

I will try to answer.

Why did she cry?
Either she misses OM or she is feeling guilty about her attitude towards me.

Why do I feel good when she cries?

I think I feel more in control when I see her tears, maybe because I want her
To show me her emotions, I do miss looking into her heart.

If I love her that much wouldn’t I be feeling bad?
I don’t have an answer for that but I’m sure that I do love her.

What to do next?
I don’t know; maybe keep doing what I’m doing.

Tell her more about my feelings?
I would love to but I don’t think she is ready to hear it yet.

Sorry for butting in here, but I had to say that IMO, you feel good when she cries because there may be a chance she is crying because she feels bad for what she has done,or that she wants things back to normal, etc... Ofcourse that would make you feel good. It probabaly gives you hope to see her cry.
I've been following your post, and praying for both of you, and it makes ME feel good when you tell us that she cried. It gives me hope for both of you.
Someone once told my H when he stated that he hated to see me cry, that he should get worried when I stopped crying.....I understood that statement.

PS- I think it is awesome that she showed you her project. That was a breakthrough. She was proud of herself- and wanted you to be proud of her as well. Your hard work seems to be moving you guys in the right direction.

Now I will let the pros get back to work here........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks RW you are a sweetheart.

top

Hey, Joe...how are you this morning?

Thank you for supplying those answers from your thoughts. FH and RW knew exactly where you were coming from...because they've been there...

From your answers to your self...where did those answers come from...fear or love?

"Why did she cry?
Either she misses OM or she is feeling guilty about her attitude towards me."

I understand you want to know why she cries...sounds like it is from your fear that you want to know why...pin it down and either take hope or shelter from any answer you get...so you jump to two possible ones...how is this respectful self-care? One DJ hurts you and the other helps you, eases you...see how we self-comfort from DJ's? We think we're not DJing by asking these questions...questions are respectful when they are to others, without assumption or mindreading...you're doing what I did at first, trying on the respect/separate/equal thing...I told myself I was asking, so that's respectful...when I wasn't asking HIM...questions in our own minds are the DJs come from...

And when I caught this and only began asking WH, then I had to be open to not knowing...asking didn't pin it down for me, either...I had to understand I was coming from fear, not love...

"Why do I feel good when she cries?

I think I feel more in control when I see her tears, maybe because I want her to show me her emotions, I do miss looking into her heart." Feeling good (relieved? Connected? Less fearful? What is "good" to you?) from feeling more in control...this is brilliant insight, Joe. You feel less fearful when you know what's going on in her...the very knowledge eases you...so you're fearing the unknown...and boy, doesn't A's reek of that fear all over?

Remember reality...you are no more and no less in control when you are invited in or closed out...your human control ends with you...always has and will...this is the influence you're detecting...her shutting out your influence...her tears maybe allowing it in...her choice. Still not in your control.

Good distraction from wanting into her is flipping stuff over...you want your influence (attention, consideration, acceptance) to be allowed into her...flipping that over to you...through your constant thought-train on her, are you paying attention, giving consideration and acceptance to you? Are you allowing your own influence?

"If I love her that much wouldn’t I be feeling bad?
I don’t have an answer for that but I’m sure that I do love her." Questioning your love is a mirror of questioning hers. Standard in A's...if you love me, how could you do this to me? It comes from believing love is a level we reach, from earning...only feeling safe and loved when others earn ours back...terrible, untrue cycle...so know that you may not feel bad because you now know you are choosing to love...she doesn't earn it, nor punishment...she isn't taking anything away from you, reducing you, by her choices. She isn't. Because you are changing your belief.

"What to do next?
I don’t know; maybe keep doing what I’m doing."

Look at how much you believe action is necessary...you have a lot of security in your choice of actions, strength in them...and they cannot save you entirely...know you have as much power in being as doing...being present, looking inward, knowing you're authentic and real...maybe your instant desire to do will ease a little when you accept this balance...being is as important as doing...we have leftover reactions from the beliefs we replace...automatic responses and urges, coming from something we no longer subscribe to...see if this is one of those...you have to be doing, constantly, when you earn love, don't you?

Know your presence and how much it matters...everywhere. Know you acting from your truth and not reacting is going to feel a little mixed up...before you begin to trust yourself to be, to know...not just to do.

Breathe, Joe. Bring your questions/answers/thoughts...all of you here...

When you crave most to know what WW is thinking/feeling/believing, use that craving to state what YOU'RE thinking, feeling and believing, 'k?

Guess you could say I flipped in Plan A, huh?

(((()))))

LA

Tell her more about my feelings?
I would love to but I don’t think she is ready to hear it yet.

Hi LA I’m a little down today.

I have a gut feeling that NC is not on yet but I have no way of knowing.
I’m sure of no physical contact, but I think they are communicating somehow.

“From your answers to your self...where did those answers come from...fear or love?”

From both LA.

I’m afraid contact is still on so she is not in withdrawal yet.
And from love because if I didn’t love her why would I care?

By the way she can hurt me with the guaranty items I gave her, but it’s a small
Price to pay for gaining her trust back.

“Feeling good (relieved? Connected? Less fearful?”

I guess is less fearful and somehow connected.

I’m getting to the point where I know that my love is real because no matter
How her reactions and her actions are I’m still staying the course, and I still
Feel love towards her.

And I think this is where my fear is coming from, I’m terrified of losing her
Knowing that we could make this marriage better.

I am committed to that.

Thank you for your reply.

Staying the course...

Your fear of loss will grow the more you allow yourself to dwell in a future (be it a day, a week or years) that hasn't arrived yet. Know your reality when you want to jump forward...

She is present. Contact or no, she hasn't left or filed for divorce. She is present. That matters. That's her choice.

Doesn't sound like much at times...didn't to me...until I really got that presence was choice.

As for contact...what do you have in place to monitor that?

One of the ways I felt less and less fearful was knowing I had no control...that I wasn't causing it...realizing, I never had...sounds like more fear, yet, it wasn't.

Are you feeling a little down as in sadness or disappointment? Were you expecting more right now, to be somewhere further from your future thoughts, or are you having moments when you are wishing none of this had happened?

And I've forgotten...are you two beginning MC soon?

LA

No MC she is not interested in saving the marriage.

they could use payphones,
Or they could meet somewhere. This I cannot monitor, and you are right
I have no control over her choices.

I was planning on stating to her that she is the OW to OM’s family,
And that their choices and their MC choice of NC should be respected,
Since WW truth was “ I never intended to take him away from his family”
And by continuing contact is doing just that.

And the sooner she realizes that, and end contact the sooner she will start
Healing.

Why not IC for you, then? Say, "I've made an MC appointment and you're invited. I'm going."

I did that...and to my total shock, he went. His choice was his choice...I am deeply grateful I invited.

Do not educate your WW, Joe. You know this. Stating she is the OW to their marriage (and yes, she is) is like an attack, an admonishment, a scolding to a child...she knows, Joe. Respect she already knows.

Are you looking for power over to stop pain?

Yes, her continued contact (which you don't know either way, but there is no obvious contact...OMW's friend is looking out for their marriage) does do harm to OM's marriage. Not in your control...solely within her choice.

Can you own that in your statement...something which you did not and would not do to someone else? How can you own what isn't yours?

Are you trying to make her sooner, better? Force doesn't exist, Joe...spend your time reviewing your marriage for every time you believed you made her do or feel something and find her choice to do or feel...this may quell your urge...from fear...to get this done, over, onward...there's no healing, knowing, growing time in now, now, now...is there?

Understandable...paintime is long...you're feeling down, scared, angry...pull back, Joe...listen to yourself, your own thoughts, focus on you...spend time on yourself and really hearing what you know from your past, and use your energy to stay in the present.

Find out how jumping into the future feeds you...you might find it is generating emotions in you by direct order...soothing you in fantasy. Because future isn't real until it becomes the present.

Find the freedom in only being able to control yourself...there's relief and comfort, real relief and real comfort, in knowing that, believing that...because you can only control yourself...and what you think, believe and feel are all yours...no right, no wrong...just yours.

You have limits, Joe...and power...find your power in your choices...examine them, also...spend thought time in this manner, instead of on taking action, speaking words...forcing outcomes...

Herculean task...and I know you can do that.

LA

Hey there.

I did go to IC for a while she was invited didn’t want to go, he didn’t help me much
May be I should wait little longer for her to be ready, maybe another MC.

I’m just having a bad day. Nowhere else to vent.

Seems to me that pain time is still at this moment.

The bad feelings had stopped after telling OMW, but today they are back.
I think it’s the fear of the unknown, not sure if contact is happening or not unknown.
I’m not worried about the future for now all I want is NC to be established so she can go
Through her withdrawal.

It’s been a long day, alone at work; I turn the TV out loud so I feel that somebody is here.

I’m drained emotionally, and physically, I keep telling myself, I will make it,
And I will, but sometimes it’s excruciating.
I feel that I’m alive only because I’m not dead.

I do give myself mental hugs, but I need a real hug, I need her hugs.

I called her a couple of times today, I feel better after I talk to her, and she is
Nicer over the phone, but I don’t like to talk about important things if I can’t see her face
So I don’t.

I’m just venting here, I will get better, I hope.
Still terrified but I’m hanging in I have a long way to go; I hope I can make it.
Keep me in you’re prayers.

21, perhaps it's time to just drop back into a simple Plan A. You're worrying yourself to death right now and that's counter-productive. Ease off on yourself, pardner. Take a step back and just watch what's going on instead of analyzing it to death, okay?

How about starting some of the things for yourself like getting in better physical condition, doing some woodwork projects, maybe take an automobile repair class—something…anything…to occupy your time and your mind.

Review Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A," and find a little peace in knowing you're doing all you can to save this marriage. Bring your children closer to you and spend your energy and time on them. Take a look at Ark's "Be Still" thread and learn to relax while all this is going on, friend.

Patience, 21, patience. Your wife didn't get into this predicament in an afternoon, it'll take a long while for her to work her way out of it. It won’t do any good if you work yourself into a lengthy stay at a hospital while she’s groping her way through the fog back to the light, will it?

Here are links to the threads I was talking about:

Pepperband's "Carrot & Stick Of Plan A"

Ark's "Be Still" thread

Thanks LH I forgot about those threads.

it's so hard when time stays still.
I'm the kind of fix it now and get it over with.
I do have patience but my heart doesn't.
I'm trying my best.

Understood, but water will not boil any faster if you hop from one foot to the other beside the stove, pardner. Find an inner peace; know that what you can do, you are doing. Let what you cannot do anything about take care of itself, okay? Now go hug your kids and get some sleep.

I know I was supposed to stay quiet but I couldn’t take it anymore

Her silence cuts like a sword.

It’s fathers day and I didn’t get anything, not that I was expecting any, but
It still hurts.

My 6 years old D woke me up wished me happy fathers day, told her brother
To do the same and she made me a card, my son did the same later, and it was more
Then enough for me.

I sat down with my WW later trying to talk to her, while the kids interrupting every 2 minutes.

Me:
Why do you hate me that much?

Ww:
Because you had to tell his wife and look what’s happening now
It’s your entire fault. Not that what I did was right but this is how I feel,
I don’t feel guilty about the A because I followed my heart, I didn’t mean
To hurt anybody but now because you called his wife a lot of people are hurting.
And now I lost my friend.

Me:
He is you’re lover.
And I ‘m not sorry for telling his wife and I didn’t hurt anybody, the A did…

What I don’t get is that you told me that he is staying for his kids, because his wife
Is a B****, and he would have left her long time ago, what is your excuse,

Ww:
I told you I have changed and you laughed at me.

Me:
I never laughed I told you I know what happened you just didn’t want to believe me.
And what strikes me is how could you treat me this way, when I’m being so good
And understanding and caring towards you, how could you not see my pain.
Because it hurts more then anything in the world.
Do you think that you don’t deserve my forgiveness or my love?
Do you think that you should be punished?

Ww:
NO

What do you want to happen, what do you want to do.

Ww:
Like you said we are here for the kids.

Me:
I am here for you before the kids; no I’m here for me you then the kids.
You need to believe that, I still care for you.

Ww:
You shouldn’t.

Me:
Well I do, and I know you told me that being that nice doesn’t make any sense to you
And that I must be up to something, but I’m not.

We talked a lot more.
She stated that she doesn’t feel that she is my wife anymore, I didn’t respond to that.
Then it was time for lunch, I asked her if she would like to go have lunch with us
(She is been avoiding going out to eat with me)
She said no, I told her common it’s father’s day, so she agreed, we stood up,
I asked her if she needed a hug she said no, I told her well I do,
So I gave her a hug and whispered in her ear you are still my baby, no she said
I told her yes and I will keep taking care of you, no matter what, you have to believe that.

One more thing I forgot.
I mentioned to her that if we file for divorce, because we have
2 young kids the court will order MC first, I was surprised when she said
“ I will go to MC but it wouldn’t change anything”.
I told her she is not ready for MC yet.

Should I wait for her withdrawal before MC or should we go now?

After lunch she said we could take the kids swimming at grandma’s I said ok

And it’s like you took a thorn out of your finger she was talking to me, playing
With the kids, like nothing is wrong.

I have no idea what’s going on anymore.

I hope this mood will last.

I feel better today, knowing 90% sure that she is not having contact with OM.
And 100% no physical contact.

213601,

You might also check out LA's own your own village thread.

If I can find the link I'll post it here.

Big mistake there. Don't EVER start up relationship talks with your spouse if your kids are around. In fact, it's probably best that you don't initiate those talks at all if you're doing Plan A. If she wants to talk R-talk, then ensure that you've got each others undivided attention first before getting into it.



Sounds like fog-speak to me. My FWW initially told me that she felt guilty at first, but not so after the A continued - she's recently told me that she felt guilty all of the time, but that was not enough to stop her. Your (F)WW is not prepared to face the effects of her actions, so she's responding the way that she is.

Things will get better, once you follow that Plan A - and avoid the R-talk as much as possible until that fog starts to clear.

Thanks MIM

this talk did help her nasty attitude, but I know what you mean.

NEW NEWS.

OM just called me he wants to meet me after work to apologise face to face, at least one of them is remorsfull

I will post the result later.

Be prepared to hear him apologizing all around the offense. I would anticipate stuff like:
[list] I'm sorry my friendship with your wife has hurt you.
[list] We're just good friends.
[list] I wish I'd been more upfront from the beginning, let's start fresh, and do things all of us together as families to wipe out any misunderstandings. and
[list] I wish you hadn't talked to my wife about your suspicions.

But then, I'm a cynic.

Hey B.

he already apologized to the church, and the school staf
in writing.

he is very remorsfull and he is trying to make things right,
the NC is his choice at this moment not my WW's he is my only chance.

I could be wrong.
I hope not.

I will update.

It's quite likely that his wanting to apologize is more an attempt to clear his conscience than it is to demonstrate any remorse to you. It's up to if you want to let him off that easy, but I suggest that you avoid getting into a big discussion with the OM over the A. You should emphasize though that there should be no further contact between him and your WW.

Tell him a no contact letter, saying he never loved WW, is ending all contact with WW for life, that he loves his wife dearly and is committed to working on their marriage.

No face to face...in writing...ask for this as his amends for your forgiveness. Have him mail it with his wife's approval to your address, addressed to you and your WW.

LA

Thanks LA

this is what I was planing to do.

I need you're input on my 1:01pm post about what happened yesterday.

thank you.

I read through your post earlier, Joe...didn't know what to say...you did what you did, said what you said...liked the response you got from her...seemed to change...to get you the response you sought, maybe?

"I know I was supposed to stay quiet but I couldn’t take it anymore"

This is within you...not her...you see her dripping with hate and anger...not as a person who has used you to be responsible for what she feels and vice versa for 27 years...and now you've stopped...why do you take this personally from her? Why choose to see her this way? Why not know, fully, deeply, truly, this is her anger, her stuff...not yours? Like she is piled up with stuff on the other side of a see-through fence...you can see her and all her stuff...and she is casting you looks (which before you got respectful would start a chain-reaction of reactions)...and now you see and you feel that tug and you are the one saying, hmmm...no...I know you're capable and whole and complete...and stick to owning your own stuff.

You miss being immersed in your WW...that reaction-to-reaction was a rhythm, I swear, is in our blood...and breaking that rhythm feels out of kilter...like stumbling...funny how acquiring balance feels so out of balance at first...

Know your choice and there's nothing you can't take anymore...you choose without reacting; not being filled up...mind your expectations carefully....expecting her to stop her wayward fog now that it isn't being fed by OM...guess what? Half the fog was fed by her from the inside...no contact doesn't mean that won't go on for a bit...part of withdrawal...stay the course, like Longhorn advises...

Stay the course...

I'd stick with listen and repeat ONLY...she shared something...she felt laughed at...doesn't mean you did...listen and repeat...that's all. Make your new rhythm to move to, choose to and believe in, Joe.

Repectful love...really look to how you want to manipulate and know this...understand manipulation acts from fear...respect acts from love...guess which one is the oldest reaction?

LA

Well I met with OM yesterday after work.

WW doesn’t know yet. I don’t know if I’m going to tell her or not.

He was extremely sorry for what he did; he just didn’t know how to stop it
He is very remorseful, he is going to counseling with his wife, and he said they have
Bad days and good days, all the personnel at church and the school know, he had
To read a letter of apology he wrote to everybody.

He will right a NC letter to my WW.

He said that before the A started he was trying to understand why my W
Felt this way even though she had nothing bad to say about me, he had
Problems with his wife, but he couldn’t understand why my W didn’t want
To work on our marriage since she described me as a good husband.

Then they started getting friendlier and one thing led to an other and one day
My WW asked him on a date.
And from then on the PA started, he claimed he didn’t know how to stop it.

He told his wife everything, he changed his cell number, e-mail
He seems willing to work on his marriage, or he is the best darn liar
I’ve ever met.

We talked for over an hour, he seemed genuinely honest, which I heard a lot of good things about him from his friends.

After the meeting I was at ease until I remembered him saying something that happened
After the 2nd D day, meaning he had somehow contacted my wife after that day, which
According to him D-day was the last time he spoke to her.
I really want to believe the other things he said. He could have lied because he didn’t want his wife to know that he had been in contact with my WW. At this point I really
Don’t know, I tried to call him but nobody answered the phone, so I left a message.

I know he wants to fix his marriage because he have a lot to lose, his home his kids, his friends, and his job.

I’m going crazy I feel worse then what I felt before talking to him.

The only good thing is he seems devoted to work on his M more then his wife is,
He is doing everything possible to have NC with my W.
He stepped down from the leadership of his recovery group, he said it was hypocritical
Not to. And so on.

I have no reason to think he will continue contact after we talked but I will not
Trust him or my WW for now.
I don’t know if my WW should know about this meeting or not.

I'm terrified more then ever.

Any input or criticisms is welcome.

A post ad on…. And a bump.

I’m trying to stay still but I can’t, how do you do it?
How do you act happy when the hurt is so strong?
How do you disconnect yourself from all the chaos?
Too many questions, no simple answer.

I'm taking your last post first...

I do not believe in pretending...that gets us out of reality and invalidates our feelings.

And I don't believe in living from feelings, either.

Where does that leave me? Acknowledging that I am not happy...and not leaving it there...too nebulous, too intangible...track it down to what I'm feeling and feel it. Passes more quickly. I choose my most helpful perspective...if I were you, Joe, this would be me...

"I am angry with myself for not living up to my old expectation of myself and not punching the guy out, wittily putting him down, smearing his soul into the ground...which I'd promised to myself if this EVER happened to me...and I'm more upset because I'm comparing myself to him...and he's not coming up dog poo..(and he IS Joe...that's not honesty...to say it got away from him...accidentally dated and slept with your wife...there's no ownership...he's not honest; he's terrified)...

Your goal isn't to act happy...it is to act real, truly owning your stuff and not acting from it...acting from your goal, your code...

Find out why you hurt more, as you said (and big KUDOS on sharing all those emotions)...

Loving detachment is how we break enmeshment...the chaos is not yours...is not reality...reality is you have your children and WW at home, right now...you know ten times more than you did last year...about yourself, being human, and being married.

Find out why you want simple...how it pays you off...simple answers for complex people...how reasonable are your expectations...and accept yourself more...heck, you're breathing, living this....all new, unsettling, full of previous vows and expectations...KNOW this...you're not fighting another person...mostly, your self...your deep, old beliefs...

Now...as for meeting OM...don't do it again, okay? It is why I advised against. Curiosity killed your own heart...you punished yourself with his presence...doubted and hurt yourself...YOU did that...not WW or him...without meeting, without his explanations and crap, a NC letter would have sufficed. Don't make him real, Joe...he's not fantasy when you see him and your sympathy goes out to him...like a traitor...were you looking for security in his words? His body language? What were you after, Joe? Find those things and own them...here...

It's up to you to lighten your own load...and that means taking on deeply what is yours...and leaving what isn't. He had a lot you could have stooped to carry...something in you feeds on this...put it down. Until he owns why, to the detail, he knows it was his choice, his power...then he will cheat again and again.

Been there...been him.

I was authentically sorry for causing pain, each time...I stumbled into, overlook, got snuck up on, and was just being a friend...I was duped, and yet entitled to dupe, to draw, enchant...it's complex and absolutely idiotic...I did that. I punished and I rewarded...it was all about me in the guise of sacrifice...don't waste your time on him, Joe...he's got a boatload of his own stuff...

Focus on you. That no contact letter arriving and reading it with WW.

Staying aware for no contact to WW and seeing slowly, like coming out of a coma, a couple more months, before you glimpse your loving W's face and smile...

You've got a ton of work to do in the meantime, Joe. You are doing it...keep doing it...keep asking those questions of yourself and share your answers here...

Remember...if you can only think of two solutions, then you're thinking in extremes...which signals you to thinking from your inner child (where pain puts us), not your adult.

You can totally or partially disconnect...you can stay present fully or partially...or you can escape into compulsive thought cycles (comfort comes from the sureness of the cycle...no surprises), or fantasy.

Many choices. You've learned more than I have. Reach for them. Reach for the fullness of your life. Stay on course, hero. You can do this. Being false or pretending won't cut it.

LA

Thanks.

The pain is coming from not believing NC yet, maybe it will happen now,
The noose is very tight around his neck,

He had to read his apology letter for a room full of people, yesterday,
So now everybody at school knows, my name or my WW’s name
Where not mentioned, but a lot of people knew who it was.

OM just returned my call I asked him again if he had contacted my WW
He said no, my hope is that now after what he had to go through, (I mean
I don’t want to be in his shoes right now, talking about humiliation in public,
In front of all his friends.)
The NC should start.

Quote:

I am angry with myself for not living up to my old expectation of myself and not punching the guy out, wittily putting him down, smearing his soul into the ground...which I'd promised to myself if this EVER happened to me...and I'm more upset because I'm comparing myself to him...and he's not coming up dog poo..(and he IS Joe...that's not honesty...to say it got away from him...accidentally dated and slept with your wife...there's no ownership...he's not honest; he's terrified)...

I am not angry at myself, I was never planning on putting him down, or punching him out, I’m not comparing myself to him, he wouldn’t even come close,
I think of myself as great person, I’m not perfect, but I’m a very honest caring man,
I never hold a grudge, I am very forgiving. Like we say back home,” you can buy me with
One nice word.”
And I see the good in other people until they prove me wrong.
And he did.

My pain is coming from the fear of having contact somehow, and not trusting WW or OM. At this moment.

I know that his wife, the school, the church and his friends are making it almost
Impossible for the A to continue or the contact to continue.
But they can still find a way if they want to.

He is taking ownership for his choices he told me that he is the one that caused the pain
To everybody involved and he is apologizing to everybody.

I still think he is a low life for doing this. And I will never trust him.

I needed to have the meeting with him, to know at least some detail on what has happened, since I got nothing from my WW, I needed him to see how much pain he had caused.
I did get some information out of him, I could have gotten more details but I didn’t want to, not at this time it will drain my love bank in a second.

I think I have only one major source of fear which resuming contact, I’m terrified of
Having the EA /PA start over again either. I don’t think I will be forgiving if it does.

I will deal with the other stuff as it comes along.

Quote:
Loving detachment is how we break enmeshment...the chaos is not yours...is not reality...reality is you have your children and WW at home, right now...you know ten times more than you did last year...about yourself, being human, and being married.

Yes I have my children at home I do know more about myself, but my wife is not at home, I have a shell a person that looks exactly like my wife, with a different soul inside
Some times I wonder who this person is and how could anybody be so cruel and disconnected, then I remember the alien thing, I guess MB is right she is been abducted by aliens.

I still have hope, I need to expect the worst but I can’t at this point I need to think
Positive, I’m to emotionally and physically drained to deal with a thought of a bad outcome,
I can handle my pain better when I hope for better days.

I know I can’t make her choices, I know there are things that I don’t have control
Over and I should accept them, I know I need to look at the bright side.
But it’s hard.

I need to get out of the house more often but by the time the kids go to bed I’m to tired
To go anywhere. I do feel better when I’m with friends, but I still need to spend time with the kids, and this is the only time I can spend with them, they’re used to daddy being
Home every evening to take care of them and put them in bed, and I’m not going to take that away from them.


One more question

I can’t keep secrets from my wife they eat me up inside.
I need to tell her that I had a meeting with OM, and that he said, that he loves his wife
And he is committed to his marriage, and he is very sorry to have caused everybody so much pain, and he thanked me for telling his wife, this way he could work on his marriage with her.
and that he had to read his letter to everybody.

Would that be a good idea?
Or just keep it to myself.

any suggestion is welcom.

POST UPDATE:

After she got mad at me for telling OMW’s a few weeks ago and she wanted me to leave.
She stopped going out for dinner with the kids and me, when I got home
She wouldn’t be there, she gets the kids dinner, and I end up going out having dinner
By myself.

Yesterday I was late at work about ½ hour late, next thing I know she calls
Telling me that the kids are hungry and she was wondering how late I was going to be.
I told her I’m on my way home.
We went out all together, had a nice dinner, I felt at ease for a while.

This morning I was feeling down again.

How can I stop this roller coaster?

When she is in an ok mood I get some hope and I feel good.
But it doesn’t last.

What I’m trying to say is that hope is all what I got for now,
The problem is it comes and goes like a cloud covering the sun on a spring day,
And every time it comes and goes it feel worse then the first time it went.

Am I making any sense here?

213601,

I can relate on how WW’s changing emotional state minute by minute is one of the most frustrating things for me to deal with. I’ll get a phone call of complete despair minutes before leaving work and by the time I get home she acts as if the phone call never happened and everything is great. It’s truly like living with someone with two personalities and it's driving me nuts!

[/quote]How can I stop this roller coaster?[/quote]

You can’t. All you can do is take care of yourself, set boundaries (this is the hardest for me) and get your frustrations out somewhere other than your WW who is not in a place to reason or listen how you feel. IC for me has been one of the best things A or not that I’ve done.

At this point I’m also the only one working on recovery and I think it takes all of my strength not to get pulled into her emotional state of depression and chaotic mindset.


YES! Unfortunately I don’t have any great words of advice as I’m up the same creek you are and my paddle was lost months ago.

Hang in there and keep posting!

Thanks for sharing Q.

Thank you very much, Joe, for sharing yourself here.

"I know I can’t make her choices, I know there are things that I don’t have control over"

What things?

"and I should accept them,"

A "should" is a red flag, Joe. Tell me what you cannot control and cannot accept.

"I know I need to look at the bright side.
But it’s hard."

I was asking you to look at reality...not the bright side. Reality is seeing what is really there--keeping that awareness...rather than looking at what isn't.

"I can’t keep secrets from my wife they eat me up inside."

Okay...tell me why they eat you up inside.

"I need to tell her that I had a meeting with OM, and that he said, that he loves his wife
And he is committed to his marriage, and he is very sorry to have caused everybody so much pain, and he thanked me for telling his wife, this way he could work on his marriage with her.
and that he had to read his letter to everybody."

Distinguish between being honest with your wife about meeting with OM and separately, telling her all the details...tell me what is your intent, your hope, your expectation...your reason for details.

I'm with Q on knowing inside yourself, this is a rollercoaster right now, no stopping to get off (fantasy)...and I am not attempting to mitigate its impact...it is there for a reason...

My intent is to point out where you add to the rollercoaster, in you:

"When she is in an ok mood I get some hope and I feel good.
But it doesn’t last."

You base your feelings on hers...that's enmeshment. That isn't separate and equal. You are so routined to being each other's emotional cause, control and cure, that you are on her rollercoaster as well as your own. Get off hers. When she is down, angry, fearful, withdrawn...remain present. Until you really change that belief that you make her and she makes you, then you'll be finding your hope and despair in her. That's a load that abuses another person. Stop it.

You are your own hope, strength, joy, anger, emotional exhaustion...and it comes from you taking on what isn't yours and putting on others what isn't theirs.

The way I stopped doing this was to realize, what I did to my spouse, I did to others...including my children. I could stay as aware as possible of NOT doing it...and find out I was doing it, anyway. Why? Because I believed love was like that...shoving my stuff down other throats and swallowing up theirs...get to understand this about yourself.

When you measure her moods, you are doing so to see progress...her progress is hers...not yours, Joe. Stop. Look at your own...are you finally a respectful person? You say one thing here, and then you say another.

Do you fear her being separate and equal to you, Joe? Do you fear not feeling connected? Reality says you both are not connected...she connected herself to someone else, to replace you...for her reasons, her fantasy escape. That says nothing about you, only her. What you have known as intimacy is co-dependency...you find yourself through her. Her moods tell you what your feelings are...which is twisted inside out, isn't it? Yours are yours. They are valid. So are hers. Our emotions come from our beliefs...you have trained your brain to give you emotions based on beliefs about her...not from inside you.

You've got to redirect to be direct with yourself, Joe.

This is will benefit your marriage, your life...and your self won't get last place...which is where resentment starts, and we do it to ourselves.

I have the urge to change a great saying...the one about "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" to "Do you want to feel good right now, or do you want to be married five years from now?"

The self-care I've been urging you to do isn't going anywhere (though I agree self-time is important and appreciate the poster who pointed that out)...I'm talking about you making yourself feel good, well, content, calm...understood, accepted, solid in the knowledge you are you, as is...no earning love by being a great person...there's a judgment in there, Joe...it's sneaky...can you find it? Did you notice I asked if you compared yourself to OM and you said of course not...he's nowhere close to your caliber (my interpretation)...and that's still a comparison?

Separate, equal...everyone under the sun. We do awful and great things...doesn't change our separate and equal...we strive, fail, fall back and lunge forward...we surmount and crawl under...we are humans, Joe. No comparisons. We aren't what we do...we are who we really are.

Judging actions...he cheated, lied, decimated...he did those things...he isn't those things. Same for your WW.

I'm urging this for to slow your own rollercoaster and aid you during her time of withdrawal...which is HERS. No helping, fixing, rushing...yours is to wait it through...knowing you have no control.

And I would like to see you relish not believing you have control...like a burden lifted from you...and hold that gasping fear of knowing you have no control, and just hold it...know it...don't act from it or react to it. You'll feel freedom from being responsible where you cannot be; and feel power in what can only be yours.

Your choice.

LA

I know I’m not getting it LA

Plan A is so hard.

I have to work on myself in the middle of chaos and a lot of negative energy
I have to be physically present for the plan to take effect.
I have to keep my mouth shut about the A and the relationship talk.
I have to tell her how hurtful this is without LB’s.
It’s like a juggling a bunch of razor sharp swords that cut on both ends.
And I don’t think I’m doing right.

I’m not complaining but I had to let that out just venting.

There was a time after I told OMW’s, where I was feeling great even when she wasn’t
Even when she blew up and told me all these awful things, I was still feeling good.
I was at peace.

I think this was because I knew the A was over and I did see her cry which
She didn’t do for a long time now, so I guess I felt in control more then before.

“A "should" is a red flag, Joe. Tell me what you cannot control and cannot accept.”

I know I’m a should guy I’m trying though.

I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work
On the marriage or not.

"I can’t keep secrets from my wife they eat me up inside."

“Okay...tell me why they eat you up inside.”

Because I think it’s dishonest to keep secrets from my wife.
And it’s hypocritical to ask her not to keep secrets if I am keeping them.

Isn’t that radical honesty?

I need to tell her about what happened at the meeting so she can realize that OM
Is gone this way she could start accepting that and maybe see that the A was only a fantasy
And it wasn’t meant to be, and maybe get her trough withdrawal easier.

I can see it’s manipulative as I write it now.

May be I can tell her that OM wanted to meet with me so he can apologize
Face to face and end it their.

“When you measure her moods, you are doing so to see progress”

You are absolutely right. But I don’t know how to stop this

We have been relying on each other for 13 years; it’s hard to break a bad habit
We both thought this was the way to love, I know now that it’s wrong,
But how to relay that to her without DJ?

I tend to think that I’m respecting her.

But when deep down I know that what she did was wrong, and want her to open her eyes and see that, this is a DJ.

And when she tells me that she doesn’t feel guilty about the A and that she only followed her heart, and I think what a load of POO, this is DJ.

Then I think to myself what if she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her action

How could we ever recover from that?

I’m just thinking out loud here sorry.

“Do you fear her being separate and equal to you, Joe? Do you fear not feeling connected?”

I don’t fear her being separate and equal I do fear that her separate means
Another A in the future.

I know she is disconnected, this is not what I’m afraid of, I’m afraid of
Me disconnecting and losing my love for her in the process.

Co-dependency this is the word I’ve been looking for you nailed me.

It’s hard to break this habit look at me I always thought that I was never
Addicted to anything so I couldn’t understand what an addiction was,
Well I do I am addicted to taking care of her and to love her.
In another word I am addicted to her, so I do understand addiction.
This is what she is going through now with her feelings for OM.
I get it I can see her pain now, but it hurts me more then it hurts her
Knowing that her pain is coming from OM.

I got too far here.

I will work on myself.

I will try to carry my own feelings, and not letting her feelings bothers me.

I will try to slow my roller coaster, and get of hers.

I will try to live in the present, heck like you said she is still at home
(Physically at least), the kids are still home.
What else could I ask for right?

“And I would like to see you relish not believing you have control...like a burden lifted from you...and hold that gasping fear of knowing you have no control, and just hold it...know it...don't act from it or react to it. You'll feel freedom from being responsible where you cannot be; and feel power in what can only be yours.”
This will be the hardest thing to do; I don’t think I even know how to do it.
But I will try.

LA I think you have been my guardian angel in this hard and humbling experience.

God bless.

LA,

Very insightful post! I'm going to have to reread several times tonight as I believe many of your thoughts also apply to how I've dealt with my M and need for self introspection after DD.

213601,

Your openness and willing to look and improve yourself is going to make you a better man/husband/father than you ever thought possible. You’re not alone…. I have spent the last 17 years of M not knowing the relationship I could have with myself…. and WW. Our WW’s will find their own way…we have no control over that. It’s time to truly get to know ourselves.

Dig deep, hold strong and have faith!

"I know I’m a should guy I’m trying though."

Oh, Joe! You are marvelous...biggest smile I had all day.

A should guy. I LOVE it. Sincerely...I think you've just coined a label for the new millenium...no kidding.

Did I ever mention my past problem with hyperbole? I got over it. It might back. Maybe not. I love that!

Well, SHOULDS make Plan A very difficult...like juggling razor blades...

I appreciate how you got to your good feeling after initial exposure because you felt more in control...and you weren't really, were you?

So the rollercoaster drops down when inside you realize you had no control, do not have it and won't ever have it over others...period. Influence will return...control was never there.

See how we can believe something so much we believe it is real and it isn't?

Sounds like an affair, doesn't it? Or BDD?

Human minds are fascinating...and fascinating doesn't hurt...might want to switch your focus to what is fascinating...no shoulding you, 'k?

I feel a bit devious, Joe, when I write out my words to you, knowing English is your third language, and that I'm mix of Texan, Valley Girl and Midwest colloquialism...not to mention passion for words, and yes, I'll even make them up.

Now, how about let's break down your Plan A very hard and find out if you can change your perspective...

First...I spotted a cousin to the red flag Should....

"I have to"
"I have to"
"I have to"
"I have to"

Is this your truth? Or are you choosing to...

"I choose to work on myself in the middle of chaos and a lot of negative energy...feeling fear and looking inward, anyway."

"I choose to believe I have to be physically present for the plan to take effect and my strong urge to run is what I am resisting, which is draining."

"I choose to keep my mouth shut about the A and the relationship talk. I know I want her truth and mine to be shared and that I want that desperately. I know she isn't truthful yet...that it took lies to herself to get into the affair and exposure of them to end it...withdrawal is about coming to terms with self-deception. I would rather wait for her most honest truth."

"I choose to tell her how hurtful this is without LB’s. I choose to do this for me, as I've said...because being disrespectful, spiteful, punishing, is not who I choose to be anymore. I like me more this way. There is no resistance...just an urge to hurt back when I'm hurting...the old way, like when we were boys, and you pinched harder to get the other boy to stop pinching you."

What do you feel when you own these truths about yourself and face them with the fact of your choice...no have to's?

"And I don’t think I’m doing right." There is no right or wrong in what you're choosing...you're just choosing...with a heart and a mind set on saving your marriage...and you're doing. Your own judgment, constant evaluation, measuring...that's kicking your own Plan A...let go, Joe. You are doing...not trying...you are doing...don't kick your own tushie, 'k?

And it's fine to vent...as long as you know you train your brain to believe you're suppressing and venting...like coming up from air, being an actor, unreal, false in her presence and real here...you're just training your brain, Joe.

And yes, it's better to do it here, at first. Definitely. Rather than on her.

When you said:
"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question? I got a little lost. I'm feeling rushed...have to leave work soon.

(Did you see the "have to" in my statement? They LOCK ME OUT...so it's different. I would choose to stay. They are just bigger than me.)

Getting to radical honesty is like going layer by layer into yourself...the trip gets easier and faster the more you do it...very slow at first...

"Because I think it’s dishonest to keep secrets from my wife." Your wife was abducted, sir. Your WW is present, in withdrawal, and is not trying to grow your marriage.

Those are facts for now.

"And it’s hypocritical to ask her not to keep secrets if I am keeping them." Ahhhh...getting somewhere, aren't you? If honesty is your standard and boundary, and she's violating your boundary, you hold to your standard, anyway?

Would you consider this is the kid in you, for just a minute...as good and reasonable as it sounds...are you looking for way, even if it is you doing it yourself and then expecting her to do it, to make her tell you whole truths, be radically honest, when her truth right now is that you took away her drugs and you're the bad guy?

Are you attempting to protect yourself from future secrets by your actions today? Is that eating you from the inside really knowing she has had secrets from you, and you have no control over her secrets, no matter how harmful they are towards you?

"Isn't that radical honesty?" Radical honesty is when you do not withhold information because you fear it will hurt your partner. Which seems to fit your scenario, doesn't it? Radical honesty is when you lovingly communicate your truth, and respect she can handle it as the capable, complete person she is...can you do those two things? Do you believe those two essential ingredients.

Or are you looking to radically honest, intimate with your wife and you only have WW there?

"I need to tell her about what happened at the meeting so she can realize that OM is gone this way she could start accepting that and maybe see that the A was only a fantasy
And it wasn’t meant to be, and maybe get her trough withdrawal easier.

I can see it’s manipulative as I write it now."

I suspected, not assumed. Please believe me...I wanted to educate the HECKFIRE out of my WH...for all those same reasons.

I swear.

Not for radical honesty...to continue my manipulative ways within the guise of reasonable disclosure.

"May be I can tell her that OM wanted to meet with me so he can apologize face to face and end it their."

Are you afraid she'll hear it elsewhere and blame you for not telling her? Your answer could be, "Wife, I will happily disclose everything, be radically honest with you, when you are my marriage partner for life...working together on our marriage."

Later, when the withdrawal mist (what do we call it around here?) begins to lift, tell your truth, "I realized I wanted to tell you to control you, show you, teach you...and it was disrespectful. My first commitment is to being honest with myself, then to you. Right now, it's the only way I can know truth at all."

"We both thought this was the way to love, I know now that it’s wrong," WRONG? Hey, hey, hey...Joe...stop. It isn't healthy or real...just the only way we knew...not wrong, 'k?

"But how to relay that to her without DJ?" You EXAMPLE it...no telling only showing. Great writers await you.

"Why are you smiling at me?" "I choose to love you, wife. I choose to let you into my thoughts through my face."

Wink and go on.

Know and own what you do...as acts of love. Do them. Know they are coming from you not to get something from her...but to express what is in you...has been in there for 13 years, regardless of current quantities...

That's how.

Look how intimate you are in your post...heroically so...

By journaling your progressive thoughts...you go next to your DJs, owning that you believed previously, you respected your wife...and you're not alone. So many of us thought we were...when we weren't!

Did you feel shame, anger...guilt as you saw your actions in a new light? Because fear popped up next...and you jumped...

"Then I think to myself what if she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her action

How could we ever recover from that?

I’m just thinking out loud here sorry."

Fear like a skyscraper...leaping into the future that you have no business being in...'cuz you can't...think that's your twisted self-comfort? Terrorize yourself MORE so the present feels less terrible?

Hey, it's a trick I did with the past...temporary fear relief...which then DOUBLES the fear...because you've lived the future (which isn't) now...ack. Stop.

See your patterns. Know your payoffs...you're very human. Marvelously made. You've got your comfort zones, don't you? Your internal reaction to feelings...maybe the more you find these, the less angry you'll feel over finding out your wife's unhealthy comfort zone...fantasy...self-deception.

Can be bonding instead of breaking, Joe.

"I don’t fear her being separate and equal I do fear that her separate means another A in the future." Intimacy will not keep you safe from future infidelity...accept that. Choice remains...just gets really ludicrious the more deeply you're intimate...and you both have not been truly intimate for awhile...that's not why she chose the A. Only her knowing she will never do it and why will protect you, Joe. Not in your control. Not what you need right now...that's the future. You have enough present in your hands to keep ya busy.

(Jumping into the future, calling it "contemplation of" is a self-lie...and it contributes to making Plan A excruciatingly difficult...hint hint)

Why sorry? Don't apologize for being intimate and honest.

Do not betray yourself with apologies for being a gift, a human and a brave one at that. Heck, I'll kick your Plan A for ya!

LOL

Joe...can you get "Facing Love Addiction"...a book...that helps? You're not crazy or weak...you nailed your own addiction...find out why and find a soothing acceptance from the first word in the book...flip genders...it's you and it was me. Kicking our addiction paves the way for understanding A's and the addictive qualities...contributes to true forgiveness...be good to yourself, Joe. Get that book. Might be out of print...if it is, get it on Amazon from the used vendors.

"This is what she is going through now with her feelings for OM.
I get it I can see her pain now, but it hurts me more then it hurts her
Knowing that her pain is coming from OM."

Her feelings are not coming from OM. They are in her, about her--she is creating them as surely as you are creating yours.

Do not DJ her, or her feelings. You have your own...know where your pain is coming from inside (when our drug rejects us!) and find out how you control that...not the drug.

"and not letting her feelings bothers me." It's a sign for you, Joe...when you truly get the separate and equal respect belief in place, you will not be bothered by her feelings..they will truly be hers. You will feel compassion instead of compulsion...know this sign...respecting her feelings will finally, respect your own.

Be good to yourself. Know and own your stuff.

"What else could I ask for right?" Ask the man whose wife left him and took the children to live with OM...or don't. You can ask of your wife a lot...when she's your real wife again...because then you won't have much more to ask for, will ya?

Trust in yourself, have faith in God...don't lose track of what you can cherish, even when it isn't acting too cherishable.

I make up words. Is this rude?

Now for the guardian angel...which I addressed before...now, with both barrels...

YOU, JOE, ARE YOUR OWN ANGEL...OWN GUARDIAN...YOU are here...you came into MY life for a reason...my privilege to know you, am grateful for every post...and this last one is AWESOME, especially...very honest, Joe...and know that you aren't drowning, or being killed...though it can feel like it...you are saving you...by choice.

I support you in that terrific choice.

LA

I’m glade I could put a smile on your face LA

Like always AWESOME reply.
You always hit the spot.

Quote:
“I appreciate how you got to your good feeling after initial exposure because you felt more in control...and you weren't really, were you?”

I meant I felt in control of my emotions and maybe in control of the situation
Since the exposure stopped the A.

Quote:
“I feel a bit devious, Joe, when I write out my words to you, knowing English is your third language, and that I'm mix of Texan, Valley Girl and Midwest colloquialism...not to mention passion for words, and yes, I'll even make them up.”

Why do you feel devious?
I can’t wait to read your replies and you can make up as many words as you like,
And you “SHOULD”.

I’m not very good with words it took me hours to right that post yesterday,
But I was working I did it between jobs, that might explain the chain
Of thoughts.

LA did you consider gathering all your posts and writing a book?
I will be a customer.

You are right my have to are shoulds actually.
I did mean choose by that.
You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings,
That’s why it takes me so long to right them.

Quote:
“Just an urge to hurt back when I'm hurting”

For a strange reason I don’t have that urge I never want to hurt her even when she said those cutting words to me I didn’t have the urge to hurt her back, I just
Said a few words of love and respect to calm her down and it worked.
Because you can’t fight somebody that doesn’t want to fight back, you end up hurting yourself. This is how I can stay calm and focused during her blowout.
By the way no more blow outs from her.

Quote:
“What do you feel when you own these truths about yourself and face them with the fact of your choice...no have to's?”

I feel on that I’m on top of the world, I feel humbled, I feel great,
I feel the same way she made me feel about myself when she fell in love with me,
And I fell in love with her.

I don’t know if that makes any sense but I feel that my love for her is stronger
Then ever, I don’t think I ever knew how much I did love her until now.

Quote:
When you said:
"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question?

Yes.

Quote:
“Did you feel shame, anger...guilt as you saw your actions in a new light? Because fear popped up next...and you jumped...”

Yes I did feel bad, no anger shame an guilt maybe, I still DJ her in my thoughts
Though I don’t think I realized it before but now I do and I’m going to try to stop it.

Sometimes I wonder isn’t plan A manipulating to begin with?
Am I doing plan A to get her back, isn’t this the purpose of all this?
Doesn’t make what I’m doing a big DJ?

Quote:
“I make up words. Is this rude?”

NO.

Thank you for all the insights and suggestions LA I will read this post more then
Once to keep reminding myself that I’m doing the right thing.


I’ve going through this for a long time LA way before the A began, I was trying
To work on the marriage for more then a year now, I ‘m not a writer but I wrote
Poems for her, last year on her birthday I made a card for her, she cried and said that she didn’t deserve me, at the end of the card I asked her if she would marry me again and gave her a ring, she cried and answered yes.

We had an ok summer she started to open up and be more friendly and joyful,
So we where getting somewhere then the school started and OM came along,
And you know the rest.

I ‘m hesitant but I will share one of my poems to her.

I don’t know if I want to do this, oh well here it goes.




I JUST WANT HER


I just want to look at her, and see the sparkle in her eyes
But she doesn’t want me to.

I want to brake the walls she put up and
Let me love her like she deserves to be loved.


I want to be a breeze to gently blow on her face and run through
Her hair because she will never let me touch them.

I want to be a warm stream so I can caress her beautiful body
All over, times and times again because she won’t let me touch her.

I want to squeeze her tight in my arms and never
Let her go.

I want to hold her hand and set sail in the calm ocean of her eyes
To bring her soul back to port.

I want to gently touch every single inch of her gorgeous
Body so I can feel her love.

I want her to look into my eyes and see my bleeding heart,
Then hold it in her gentle hands so it could heal.

I want her to show me that she still loves me as much as
I love her after all these years.

I just want her to be my best friend, my only friend, my lover
And my soul.

I JUST WANT HER TO LOVE ME AGAIN.
2/21/05

"I meant I felt in control of my emotions and maybe in control of the situation. Since the exposure stopped the A."

Do you want to look at control a little more? I understand that the consequence of exposure stopped the affair...and it looks like a direct correlation, not a byproduct...I'm asking you to understand that not all exposure stops affairs...many other results could have happened. Telling yourself you had a hand in controlling the outcome isn't realistic...it is comforting; the kind of self-comfort which can come back to damage you later.

Part of the rollercoaster is a lot of false things we do inside ourselves, reasoning (which seems reasonable), strategizing; when we are truly as helpless as before to control anyone else in our lives. Getting the freedom involved in owning only what is yours involves the vigilant awareness of lacking control...retraining our brain to accept this, be freed by it, and to shoulder real responsibility instead of control as our strength. Slows down the rollercoaster.

You do not control your emotions...they are. They are valid information about you, coming from your beliefs...use them, Joe, to find out what you believe, hold them like very fragile seashells and examine them. Determine when you began to believe that particular belief, and listen inside yourself for the contradictory ones you also have to that belief.

Beats obsessing on your WW.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"Why do you feel devious?
I can’t wait to read your replies and you can make up as many words as you like,
And you “SHOULD”."

Again, ROFLMAO!!! Okay, devious as in the old me would be highly concerned and conscious of your struggle, feeling I am adding to it by not curtailing or reducing my vocabulary in trying to communicate my ideas and beliefs. The new me knows you're fully capable, willing to do whatever it takes to consider what I'm saying...so devious was a leftover signal from a belief I haven't fully replaced. Finding that 90-degrees in respect takes awhile, and I'm still working at it.

You amaze me with your verbal dexterity.

That, and I believe God's a great translator. What comes from my heart gets through...as long as I don't get in its way too much.

I like you not getting your words right...that awesome post was maybe awesome because of the break in the chain of your thoughts...and the very pressure to get it complete, to your liking, might have driven you to be more frank and revealing than if you hadn't felt the pressure. I dunno. Keep 'em coming is all I can say.

Ahhh, on my first customer request. I've been in a writing group for five years, and am the least productive or ambitious one. I think I may be an expert reader, instead. I dunno. I have a collection of personal essays, two were inspired by my posts here...I put your idea in my back pocket for now.

When I pointed out your shoulds/have tos...I wasn't criticizing...you meant choose...I had to verbally coach myself to think in terms of choices, choosing, rather than shoulds/have tos...so I am encouraging you to consciously do the same.

This was how I found my power...self-coaching, gently, no self-threats or punishments...reminding myself to change the way I think takes changing the words I think them with.

I believe this matters greatly because our belief system is rudimentary...it takes our words exactly as they are stated, like a child, not looking for subtlety or intent...which makes our beliefs strong, a force, without doubt...and a "should" or "have to" signals that belief is a desire from the outside in...not the inside out...when our belief system only wants us to choose our beliefs for us, not as we should be.

You really have something here:

"Because you can’t fight somebody that doesn’t want to fight back, you end up hurting yourself. This is how I can stay calm and focused during her blowout.
By the way no more blow outs from her."

You are showing the results of your change, not the intent...you say your intent is not to hurt back...yet look at what you're saying here...essentially, there's no urge to hurt back because she hurts herself when you don't...would you consider that is the same thing? I am asking you to not only change your actions, but to know your intent, purely, clearly. If you are answering lovingly, stating calmly, in order to be non-reactive, rather than to be who you already are, then what happens when she stops reacting to you in the old way?

Not that I'm jumping you into the future...

Great to feel more love as a result of loving yourself more...you said you are recognizing a new depth to your love which you didn't know before...and I believe by owning our choices, we are unblocking the garbage we put on top of our love--the expectations, resentments, stray grudge...so we do realize a new depth and breadth to ourselves, and our choice to love feeds that reservoir deeper...the choice to love yourself, not earning your own love.

You believed she was the best thing to ever happen to you...which is like storing up your treasures in a box in the street...you can't control the street...and you can run around attempting the box intact, as safe as possible, but it truly remains beyond your control.

Now you're taking back your treasures, into your own house, within your control...and you're looking across the street at her house, honoring it as separate and equal, beautiful, complete and lovable for its very existence...not because it houses your treasures...it houses its own.

All that energy into attempting to control the street, the traffic...now goes into your own awareness, surge of power, honoring, understanding, and you so eloquently put...humility through understanding. Your choices don't help you control the world, they are there for you to love and understand your limits, your power, yourself.

When that happens, you love others more...flows upward from inside you, spilling over...running all over the place...and it's coming from within you, like the love felt when you believed you were being filled up from your wife, before the A...her being/doing was making you...and it isn't, is it? Really does come from within.

"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question?

Yes."

These would be specific answers, not belief-based ones...beliefs are broad...as a human being, you have no control over any other human being. Only yourself...through choice. You cannot make someone stop doing something or do it...their choice only. You cannot be made to do, think, feel or believe anything you do not choose to.

We are taught this opposite of this growing up...we make others mad, hurt, fearful, loving...we earn it, make them, have false power...yet we hear, you can't make somebody love you...conflicting messages...think back when you could point at a sibling and say, "You made me hit you!" when you were three or four years old...see how we need to replace beliefs with adult ones? So many were formed when all we knew was we didn't want to be blamed, be wrong, make mistakes, cause injury (and yet, we did all these things, didn't we? We blamed, wronged, made mistakes, caused injury, anyway...

I was interrupted for a long time...and I want to finish this before I leave...so if I'm repeating, my apologies...

"You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings," Please know you are not using wrong words...I am not saying that when I question...I am asking you to check your belief behind the words...the more you attempt to describe, to convey and own your feelings, the better we get at it...I am not judging your word usage or the belief behind them...communication is bringing something from within into the light where both can see...we're doing it with words, no images...hard to see the same thing, in the same way...so I my goal is clarity, not judgment.

"Yes I did feel bad, no anger shame an guilt maybe, I still DJ her in my thoughts
Though I don’t think I realized it before but now I do and I’m going to try to stop it."

No anger...maybe guilt or shame? If guilt is not living up to others' expectations (would contain a lot of shoulds and have-tos), and shame is not living up to our own, which of these would better convey what you felt, believed?

Help in stopping DJs...they are permissions we give ourselves to self-comfort falsely...which is why I've hammered you with the control beliefs...because if others give us our permission to feel...she makes you mad, hurt, angry, etc...then you can only protect yourself from those feelings by DJing, which gives us a false sense of control (knowing others like territory instead of people). There's really no protection in DJs...just false comfort and false protection.

I believe that's why people want desperately to predict the future...DJing the future...and they get false predictions.

"Sometimes I wonder isn’t plan A manipulating to begin with?"

This is your shine, your brilliance, Joe. This is why I emphasize intent as the most important choice you make to save your marriage...because if you work Plan A as you did your marriage, you'll fail, won't you? If you intend to manipulate your spouse back into your partner, then you will feel hollow whether they come back or not...you'll believe you made them, won't you?

I believe you are of pure intent...own that...you're doing this to flourish in who you are, open to the opportunity of her choosing your marriage and you...and rebuilding a thriving marriage...

"Am I doing plan A to get her back, isn’t this the purpose of all this?" You choose the purpose, the intent, your perspective, actions, perception...all of it. Huge power. What is your choice?

"Doesn’t make what I’m doing a big DJ?" DJs are mindreading or assumptions about others...defining who they are, even only in your own mind, which isn't within your domain to do so...and not in others' domain to do to you.

You being fully who you are, respectful, loving by choice, standing for your marriage...the one you can see thriving in your head, and for your vows...is a DJ?

How?

""I meant I felt in control of my emotions and maybe in control of the situation. Since the exposure stopped the A."

Do you want to look at control a little more? I understand that the consequence of exposure stopped the affair...and it looks like a direct correlation, not a byproduct...I'm asking you to understand that not all exposure stops affairs...many other results could have happened. Telling yourself you had a hand in controlling the outcome isn't realistic...it is comforting; the kind of self-comfort which can come back to damage you later.

Part of the rollercoaster is a lot of false things we do inside ourselves, reasoning (which seems reasonable), strategizing; when we are truly as helpless as before to control anyone else in our lives. Getting the freedom involved in owning only what is yours involves the vigilant awareness of lacking control...retraining our brain to accept this, be freed by it, and to shoulder real responsibility instead of control as our strength. Slows down the rollercoaster.

You do not control your emotions...they are. They are valid information about you, coming from your beliefs...use them, Joe, to find out what you believe, hold them like very fragile seashells and examine them. Determine when you began to believe that particular belief, and listen inside yourself for the contradictory ones you also have to that belief.

Beats obsessing on your WW.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"Why do you feel devious?
I can’t wait to read your replies and you can make up as many words as you like,
And you “SHOULD”."

Again, ROFLMAO!!! Okay, devious as in the old me would be highly concerned and conscious of your struggle, feeling I am adding to it by not curtailing or reducing my vocabulary in trying to communicate my ideas and beliefs. The new me knows you're fully capable, willing to do whatever it takes to consider what I'm saying...so devious was a leftover signal from a belief I haven't fully replaced. Finding that 90-degrees in respect takes awhile, and I'm still working at it.

You amaze me with your verbal dexterity.

That, and I believe God's a great translator. What comes from my heart gets through...as long as I don't get in its way too much.

I like you not getting your words right...that awesome post was maybe awesome because of the break in the chain of your thoughts...and the very pressure to get it complete, to your liking, might have driven you to be more frank and revealing than if you hadn't felt the pressure. I dunno. Keep 'em coming is all I can say.

Ahhh, on my first customer request. I've been in a writing group for five years, and am the least productive or ambitious one. I think I may be an expert reader, instead. I dunno. I have a collection of personal essays, two were inspired by my posts here...I put your idea in my back pocket for now.

When I pointed out your shoulds/have tos...I wasn't criticizing...you meant choose...I had to verbally coach myself to think in terms of choices, choosing, rather than shoulds/have tos...so I am encouraging you to consciously do the same.

This was how I found my power...self-coaching, gently, no self-threats or punishments...reminding myself to change the way I think takes changing the words I think them with.

I believe this matters greatly because our belief system is rudimentary...it takes our words exactly as they are stated, like a child, not looking for subtlety or intent...which makes our beliefs strong, a force, without doubt...and a "should" or "have to" signals that belief is a desire from the outside in...not the inside out...when our belief system only wants us to choose our beliefs for us, not as we should be.

You really have something here:

"Because you can’t fight somebody that doesn’t want to fight back, you end up hurting yourself. This is how I can stay calm and focused during her blowout.
By the way no more blow outs from her."

You are showing the results of your change, not the intent...you say your intent is not to hurt back...yet look at what you're saying here...essentially, there's no urge to hurt back because she hurts herself when you don't...would you consider that is the same thing? I am asking you to not only change your actions, but to know your intent, purely, clearly. If you are answering lovingly, stating calmly, in order to be non-reactive, rather than to be who you already are, then what happens when she stops reacting to you in the old way?

Not that I'm jumping you into the future...

Great to feel more love as a result of loving yourself more...you said you are recognizing a new depth to your love which you didn't know before...and I believe by owning our choices, we are unblocking the garbage we put on top of our love--the expectations, resentments, stray grudge...so we do realize a new depth and breadth to ourselves, and our choice to love feeds that reservoir deeper...the choice to love yourself, not earning your own love.

You believed she was the best thing to ever happen to you...which is like storing up your treasures in a box in the street...you can't control the street...and you can run around attempting the box intact, as safe as possible, but it truly remains beyond your control.

Now you're taking back your treasures, into your own house, within your control...and you're looking across the street at her house, honoring it as separate and equal, beautiful, complete and lovable for its very existence...not because it houses your treasures...it houses its own.

All that energy into attempting to control the street, the traffic...now goes into your own awareness, surge of power, honoring, understanding, and you so eloquently put...humility through understanding. Your choices don't help you control the world, they are there for you to love and understand your limits, your power, yourself.

When that happens, you love others more...flows upward from inside you, spilling over...running all over the place...and it's coming from within you, like the love felt when you believed you were being filled up from your wife, before the A...her being/doing was making you...and it isn't, is it? Really does come from within.

"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question?

Yes."

These would be specific answers, not belief-based ones...beliefs are broad...as a human being, you have no control over any other human being. Only yourself...through choice. You cannot make someone stop doing something or do it...their choice only. You cannot be made to do, think, feel or believe anything you do not choose to.

We are taught this opposite of this growing up...we make others mad, hurt, fearful, loving...we earn it, make them, have false power...yet we hear, you can't make somebody love you...conflicting messages...think back when you could point at a sibling and say, "You made me hit you!" when you were three or four years old...see how we need to replace beliefs with adult ones? So many were formed when all we knew was we didn't want to be blamed, be wrong, make mistakes, cause injury (and yet, we did all these things, didn't we? We blamed, wronged, made mistakes, caused injury, anyway...

I was interrupted for a long time...and I want to finish this before I leave...so if I'm repeating, my apologies...

"You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings," Please know you are not using wrong words...I am not saying that when I question...I am asking you to check your belief behind the words...the more you attempt to describe, to convey and own your feelings, the better we get at it...I am not judging your word usage or the belief behind them...communication is bringing something from within into the light where both can see...we're doing it with words, no images...hard to see the same thing, in the same way...so I my goal is clarity, not judgment.

"Yes I did feel bad, no anger shame an guilt maybe, I still DJ her in my thoughts
Though I don’t think I realized it before but now I do and I’m going to try to stop it."

No anger...maybe guilt or shame? If guilt is not living up to others' expectations (would contain a lot of shoulds and have-tos), and shame is not living up to our own, which of these would better convey what you felt, believed?

Help in stopping DJs...they are permissions we give ourselves to self-comfort falsely...which is why I've hammered you with the control beliefs...because if others give us our permission to feel...she makes you mad, hurt, angry, etc...then you can only protect yourself from those feelings by DJing, which gives us a false sense of control (knowing others like territory instead of people). There's really no protection in DJs...just false comfort and false protection.

I believe that's why people want desperately to predict the future...DJing the future...and they get false predictions.

"Sometimes I wonder isn’t plan A manipulating to begin with?"

This is your shine, your brilliance, Joe. This is why I emphasize intent as the most important choice you make to save your marriage...because if you work Plan A as you did your marriage, you'll fail, won't you? If you intend to manipulate your spouse back into your partner, then you will feel hollow whether they come back or not...you'll believe you made them, won't you?

I believe you are of pure intent...own that...you're doing this to flourish in who you are, open to the opportunity of her choosing your marriage and you...and rebuilding a thriving marriage...

"Am I doing plan A to get her back, isn’t this the purpose of all this?" You choose the purpose, the intent, your perspective, actions, perception...all of it. Huge power. What is your choice?

"Doesn’t make what I’m doing a big DJ?" DJs are mindreading or assumptions about others...defining who they are, even only in your own mind, which isn't within your domain to do so...and not in others' domain to do to you.

You being fully who you are, respectful, loving by choice, standing for your marriage...the one you can see thriving in your head, and for your vows...is a DJ?

How?

And your poem...your beautiful, honest expression...thank you for sharing it. I think it will speak to many hearts here...stay vulnerable and sharing...find your own reward in your choice to be...because though you worked on earning her love for a year before her A...you were of the mind to make...through acts of love...and now, you are an act of love.

Huge difference.

Take heart...be your own hope...you are.

LA

I felt good last night and I feel good today.

Even thought she was feeling good and she was talking to me.

I know it sounds contradicting my other posts, by how I feel is how she is feeling.

But I just realized that after exposure, I had mentioned that I was feeling good.
Well I was feeling good because she was feeling down, and I felt that I was
On top of things maybe I felt that I was the stronger one at that point,
And when time went buy and she started feeling better, I started feeling down again,
I think it’s because I feel like she doesn’t need me anymore?
Or she is becoming independent? Or she is the stronger one?
I don’t know I guess I can’t explain this one.

But last night I stood in front of her and told her I think you need a hug,
Gave her a hug, told her that I made my choice to love her, even though her
Choice now is to hate me, and I respect her choice, then I gave her a kiss on the nose.
And asked her if she believed what I said, she nodded her head with a yes.

QUOTE:
“That, and I believe God's a great translator. What comes from my heart gets through...as long as I don't get in its way too much.”

Yes and I know how to use a dictionary, unless the word is made up ha ha.

Quote:
“When I pointed out your shoulds/have tos...I wasn't criticizing”

I never feel criticized by your words; I don’t want you to hold back please
Feel free to say anything you want, your words are always true to my heart
And you have helped me tremendously in my journey, and can’t thank you enough.

Quote:
“You are showing the results of your change, not the intent...you say your intent is not to hurt back...yet look at what you're saying here...essentially, there's no urge to hurt back because she hurts herself when you don't...would you consider that is the same thing?”

No it’s just how it goes no intent to hurt, or have her hurt herself it just happens
This way, is like when somebody is trying to push you and all you do is move
Away and he might fall or hit the wall, not your intent his actions.

Quote:
“If you are answering lovingly, stating calmly, in order to be non-reactive, rather than to be who you already are, then what happens when she stops reacting to you in the old way?”

But this is who I am, always been, and always will be, I am loving, calm and non- reactive. No matter what her reaction will be. And I like myself this way.
I was always loving but I didn’t know how to love, now I do I wish she could see that.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I like being a choose guy instead a should guy.
I guess because I SHOULD be a Choose guy.

Just kidding here.

Look I’m getting my sense of humor back I was always the funny guy, I thought I lost it, I don’t know maybe I am feeling better, ((shouldn’t I?)) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To be honest with you and myself sometimes I wonder if I ever loved her,
I mean back then, I knew that I did love her and was in love with her, but I never felt that deep feeling that I feel now for her.
Is it because I’m losing her? Or because I did find the true meaning of love?
Or maybe both? I don’t know maybe I think too much.

Quote:
“You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings," Please know you are not using wrong words...I am not saying that when I question...I am asking you to check your belief behind the words.”

I like your honesty I like when you question to clarify, I need those questions
So I can clarify my mind to, because sometimes
You find something totally different then my thoughts, and it makes me think
And it helps tremendously.
So ask away.

And about Djing her in my thoughts, I guess I said I felt guilty and ashamed,
You clarified it, with your question.
I believe I am disappointed with myself for being this way.

Quote:
“You being fully who you are, respectful, loving by choice, standing for your marriage...the one you can see thriving in your head, and for your vows...is a DJ?”

Thank you for clarifying that, one less load of my back.


I was just thinking of something, I have always had the urge to help people,
People that I don’t even know, and I think I do it for selfish reasons, it makes me feel good, and this is why with all my agony and all my pain somehow I find
Joy in loving my WW especially when she is feeling this way towards me.
I think plan A is starting to show its effect on me, and last night when I talked to her
For a moment I asked her to look at me, she did and I saw that little spark in her eye. Maybe it’s the little kid in me looking for hope, maybe it’s true.
I’m glade you liked my poem. I wrote more stuff for her a lot of it I didn’t
Even give it to her it was for me to vent, before I found MB.

Next week is our 13th anniversary.

I made reservations Sunday evening at her favorite restaurant, I told her about it
She didn’t answer yet.

"And about Djing her in my thoughts, I guess I said I felt guilty and ashamed,
You clarified it, with your question.
I believe I am disappointed with myself for being this way."

Would you feel disappointed, guilty or ashamed if your son took apart his first bicycle and couldn't put it together again? I doubt it. He was learning what he didn't know existed before (and yeah, lousy analogy here because I'm computer brain-dead, but it's running and online and I'm grateful)...are you going to expect yourself to know what DJing in your thoughts and beliefs are, and not do them, when you didn't know what they were before?

I think not!

So, you choose guy, just think again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have to retrain your brain...nudging it when it hands you the DJ's, reassure your heart when it skips a beat thinking if you don't assume or mindread, you will be blindsided...which isn't true. DJ's are false protection. You're getting real and true...no falseness for you, 'k?

The more you tell yourself, "Hey, what I don't know, I don't know" the less you fear.

You're doing all of this. You're revoking permissions for what you don't want to do, and instituting new ones, to keep with your code.

Sounds like your weekend-dread went away for awhile...you're in it, and it's okay, because it just is?

LA

Regarding the card.

I would leave out or reword the “hate”. I have a feeling that although she has said she hated you the she doesn’t. The word “hate” was grabbed and used to cause pain and to describe an emotion she had at the time she used the word. By constantly waving the word around it won’t go away.

It might be she “hates” exposure, having gotten into the affair, that the affair is over or whatever but if she truly hated you she would leave. So don’t fuel “hate” by keeping the word alive.

I think you have done a remarkable job in so many ways. At the moment it’s up to you to break your wife out of this state of emotional chicken. She is giving you the silent treatment and most people would respond with the silent treatment. You are breaking through. Keep it up!

Thanks LA

and thank you bigger for the input and the praise,
I wish I was so sure about what I'm doing,I will reword
the hate word, you are right.

Good morning:
It’s our anniversary today, a very sad day right now.
I’m on the bottom of my roller coaster again.

Yesterday I had reservations for one of favorite restaurants, I gave her a choice
To go she agreed, I promised her and I promised myself not to talk about us.
Well as you know I can’t shut up.
Well found out she is still angry with me for telling OMW’s.
I asked her if I hadn’t told his W the A would still be on, would that life be ok with her,
She said yes, and now because of me she would never see her friend again.
I told her that the minute she crossed the line he wasn’t a friend anymore, and it’s
The A that destroyed her so called friendship.

I told her that I’m trying to keep my own sanity, and what she did hurt beyond belief
And that my feelings where attached to hers and I’m trying to carry my own grief, and
My own feelings, And that I can’t carry hers anymore.

And then I asked her about the future, the kid’s college, she said she is not thinking
About that right now, I told her it’s around the corner.

I asked her if she notices that her relationship with the kids is way better, since
The A stopped, she said yes, I told her then one good thing came out of me calling
His W.

I asked her if she knew me, she said I guess, I told her then you know that I never
Take the easy way out, and I’m not going to this time.

I talked and preached more; I don’t know what got into me…
I don’t remember what I said.

I remember what she said which wasn’t much.

I’ll try to some it up.

I don’t feel that I’m your wife.
Those books you are reading are not going to help; we don’t have a marriage anymore
If I had a place to go I will leave.
I keep told you how I feel but you don’t get it.

I told her that I never dismissed her feelings, and I never judged her feelings,
I’m not trying to manipulate her; I’m reading these books for me to improve myself
And to be independent from her.

Then I asked her if she was independent before we got married, she said yes,
Then I told her I’ve been trying to help you be independent again you are to dependent on
Me and it’s killing you inside, but I need your help to do that for you.
She said that she was sad because OM had to do all these things so he can keep
His job, I told her I know but this was his choice and she shouldn’t blame herself for it
Then I asked her if she knew what did he have to do she said some of it,
I told her that he had to apologize to me in person, and that he told me not to feel
Guilty about telling his wife I told me that I didn’t.

I don’t know why I wasted my breath and energy, I just couldn’t shut up.

I wish I didn’t say anything.

I feel that my heart is in my stomach right now the hurt is unbearable
I think it’s the fear.
breathing is hard today i feel that my head is lighter,i don't know what's wrong with me? i was fine yesterday,
i was feeling realy good yesterday.
i thought i could handle this?

Next time she says this, you might want to point out to her that, it was his choice to make and he chose his job and his wife who, apparently, are more important to him than she is. (In other words, honey, to him, you were just a bit on the side...)

Regards,

BB

thanks BB.
I did mention that it was his choice.

Hey, Joe...

Would you consider your drop on the rollercoaster is your reaction to yourself? You say, "I can't help it" that you couldn't stop...you broke your promise...you took her truth as yours...you did a lot of things to yourself.

Here is what you did to her:

"I keep told you how I feel but you don’t get it."
"Well found out she is still angry with me for telling OMW’s."

She is telling you, as loudly as possible, you don't acknowledge what is hers...you say you do...but you don't. It's crazymaking. Her feelings are hers alone...she's still angry about you telling OMW...that's her stuff. Not yours. Yet you reason, explain, question, argue...and she is saying, "Here is what I feel" and you negate her.

Like you do yourself. I promised no R talk and then did it anyway.

Each time you inform her of what she already knows, you are telling her you believe she's an idiot. Brainless. Child-like. Less than you. Stupid.

Please stop fathering your wife. The way you see her as dependent instead of her choosing her life is the DJ that will undermine your recovery. Equals. You are. She is. Respect she knows and stop informing her of facts...listen and repeat..."I hear you remain angry about OMW's finding out about her WH's affair, is that correct?"

And leave it. Let her talk or not...sit in her presence...this anniversary dinner...this promise you made to yourself...a night with R talk....Plan A isn't about R talk...in fact, 20 minutes a WEEK is what we limited ourselves to while WH went through withdrawal. No talk about the future, either. Withdrawal is real, Joe. Her choice to create and build resentment in herself is a lifelong choice...isn't stopping with the A...and it was a big factor as the fuel for her entitlement, which remains...along with the lack of respect...which is knowing her feelings, thoughts and beliefs are her own, not caused by you.

Do not buy into her belief she has nowhere to go...she does. She's choosing not to...respect this as her belief and do not choose to believe it for yourself. Just like nagrom67, WS's say this...believe this...doesn't make it true.

You owned your pain and feelings, and how you're working on carrying your own...which was great, Joe.

O&H statements you almost made with ownership...

"I love the way you are with the children now. I feel pleasure watching you interact with them. You mean the world to them."

"I don’t feel that I’m your wife."

"I hear you don't feel like you're my wife."

"Those books you are reading are not going to help; we don’t have a marriage anymore"

"I heard you say you do not believe books will help our marriage, that we don't have one anymore, is that correct?"

"If I had a place to go I will leave."

"I hear you're choosing not to leave our marriage."

These are respectful...listening, acknowledging...not arguing, condescending or instructive.

This isn't you letting her step on you, walk around you or hurt you...get it straight in your mind...this is her truth right now...your place is to here it. You're her partner. You want to be a safe person to share and be with. Silence isn't oppressive...can be expressive, when it isn't what you usually do. If you feel you have to fill the gaps, preach and teach...then you are in control mode...wanting to force your influence on her, your truth, even THE truth...

How respectfully safe is that?

I hear, "Hurry up and wake up, WW...I'm hurting too much here."

Halve your pain, Joe. Stop betraying yourself. Keep your promises, turn those thoughts inward; if they are to argue with yourself, look to see your hope, your faith, your belief...if you can't help something about you, you're in the wrong business--being human--because you are the only one you can control.

I believe you're being honest when you say what she feels, you feel. This is enmeshment...it is where you both have used each other to complete one another, not complement, as two whole people do...

You were abusive here: "Then I told her I’ve been trying to help you be independent again you are to dependent on
Me and it’s killing you inside, but I need your help to do that for you."

You told her she was too dependent on you. That's defining her and only she has the right to do that.

I know your intent is to love purely, by choice, respectfully and honorably. I know this. Could you have stopped yourself from saying all of this if your first thought was--I am not an abuser. I refuse to disrespect and define.

Would that help you to stop yourself?

Can you see how much you are a part of your rollercoaster? Not all...your part. Be true to yourself...as long as your focus remains on her, consumed within her and what she represents to you...you will continue to harm the marriage.

Be good to yourself. You are worth it.

LA

Tanks for everything you’ve done for me LA.
And thanks to everybody on the wonderful forum.

I think I’m giving up.
It’s just another morning and I woke up again, oh well.

Many mornings can begin with thinking you're giving up. Then you don't...or you do...and then you don't.

Your choice to stay on MB while you go through all of this...and after, to help others...

Your choice to get up, get going, stay your course, be open to what God may bring and leave the future and past where they are...see only the present.

You can change something right now, Joe...yes! In your title, you use parentheses to encircle update about OM...those are online hugs...wanna change that?

You can.

Your choice! LOL

(I admire you for the way you view OM very much...but hugging? Oh, that's too far...)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

((((Joe))))

LA

Hey LA thanks for the note.

I did not know these where hugs.

Quote:
“(I admire you for the way you view OM very much...but hugging? Oh, that's too far...)”

Thank you for clarifying that.

You can stop admiring me I’ will change them right now, I’m not that good of a guy.
thank you for the hugs I got.

I know what you mean by giving up; yesterday was very draining to both of us.

We talked for a while after the kids went to bed; well I talked for a while.

From what I said:

I know you are a separate and a whole person, and you are entitled to your own feelings,
And I can trust you can make the right choices in your life with or without me.
We are independent and equal by god’s design, remember that. you are complete, you are a caring and wonderful person, be proud of yourself.

I just want you to know that I’m not trying to manipulate you to stay or to work on our marriage this will be your choice and your choice only, and no matter what happens between us no body will ever love you as much I do, and no body will ever take care of you like I do.

(I got silence as a response to that.)

From what she said:

I don’t believe in marriage anymore.

This one I didn’t know what to answer to, I was silent for a while, then I said wow,
I heard you say that you don’t believe in marriage anymore but I still do and I still
Consider myself as your husband… my choice.

She said I couldn’t take this anymore I can’t be around you anymore, I feel suffocated,
I feel that you’re watching me. I don’t know what you are going to do next.

I understand you’re feelings these are yours I can’t help you with that, I can feel them
I know exactly how you feel; I’ve been feeling this way for a long time now.
Does your chest hurt?

No but I feel like I have an elephant on my chest.

I feel the same way to.

But I’m trying not to carry your load anymore; your feelings are yours I can barely
Cary mine at this time. Some time I wonder how am I functioning and I don’t have an answer for that, I just drag my feet one after the other not because I want to, but because
I have to, I see your face and the kids faces and I know I need to keep going for you guys,
And it hurts like you never believe W, I wish I can do something to relive your pain,
I wish you could tell me how I can relive your pain because I’m out of idea, and I’m running out of steam.

I wish I wasn’t attached to you or the kids, but I am.

I’m at work all day when I come home I like to spend time with the kids, and they like
To be around you all the time, on the weekend I would like to take the kids places
But you never want to join us, and you dread being alone if we leave, you told me that
Already, and you know what if we separated we will have to share custody so it will be
Worse.

She agreed to that.


Then I told her we are both on the bottom of a wide pit no rope no ladder, the only way out
Is if we lean on each other’s backs, put our arms together push against the walls and climb out of this rut, and I believe we can do it.

I wish you would help me find a way to coexist together without resentment or anger
For our sake and the kids sake.

Good night.

I don’t know what triggered my bad feeling but I think the statement about
The marriage, or maybe her whole body language, she didn’t say much
But she said enough.

I forgot one more thing.

I mentioned the school offered counseling

Her answer what a counselor would do that you don’t know already, you read all these books you made all this research online, the web forum.
You know everything.

I don’t know what to make from that, I was flattered though.

UPDATE:

I just had a call they had at least phone contact yesterday.

back to square 1. GRRR

Re-expose...call OMW, school director...do it now and swiftly. Contact has consequences.

Joe...you talk too much to your WW.

Yep, I'm judging you. Now, in my marriage, I was like you...please do not think I'm attacking...I'm remembering.

Until I read "Facing Love Addiction," I had no idea that my H feared intimacy...felt engulfed, overwhelmed, SUFFOCATED from my love. What I would kill for--attention, conversation, awareness...which is what I was giving...they felt to my H like examination/judgment, lecturing and assessment...with an eye to his failure for everything...including his body language.

Now, was I doing this to him? Just my part. Was he feeling this way, absolutely. Did he feel this way all the time? No. Did it have to do with what I did or what he thought I was doing...well, the latter was true. His perception changed, back and forth, so there was no trail to follow for me to make him not feel engulfed, taken over...

I had to shut up, get inside myself, be present and listen, and lovingly detach. Why? Because I was addicted to a person!! He was my drug...my fear of abandonment was matched to his fear of intimacy...he felt engulfed and withdrew (preservation)...and I felt invisible unless seen...you couldn't get me overwhelmed or engulfed enough!

See about opposites attracting one another? Yeah...and you wanna know the flip side? Underneath my fear of abandonment is fear of intimacy...and underneath H's fear of intimacy? You got it--fear of abandonment.

So too much attention and he withdrew and I pursued. Not enough attention, I withdrew and he pursued...it is part of what is behind the 180 plan...and that's why I don't trust it without a commitment that your intent be one of self-care and pursuit, not withdrawal from your WW.

Would you consider no more Relationship (R) talks for one solid week? None. Not even O&H statements of your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...unless you can contain them to one sentence or less...and no more than one sentence for every one hour. Period.

Each time you want to speak as you did in your post, I want you to stop and find out WHY you want to say something to WW...find your true desire and intent...really know it well...and we get to know them well when we don't allow ourselves to act on the urge, rather examine the urge instead.

Acknowledge that she doesn't believe she's married. Period. As you did. Without what you know...which is not what you BELIEVE...it is what you KNOW..."I know we're married." Now, don't go there. Really listen and repeat...that's all you're gonna do for one week.

Stay quiet...be vocal and rambunctious with the kids...bask in all the attention they give...eat it up...find out how attention, consideration, appreciation, admiration, AGREEMENT makes you feel...and then give it to yourself instead of speaking.

Silent runnings...listen for these words in your thoughts "what if" or "if only" or "if only you would" When you hear them, say, "No." And think of something else. The present. What you can sense with your five senses...

If you want to try this for the experience, and if you give yourself permission to say anything you've already said, I want you to go outside to a notebook you put under a rock and make a mark for One...a hash mark...and then put the notebook away and re-enter the house...and each and every time you do this...make the trek and do the record...then you'll know how often you give yourself permission to betray what you want most...

LA

P.S. Your climbing out of the well metaphor was FABULOUS.

And here is where you were abusive:

"and no matter what happens between us no body will ever love you as much I do, and no body will ever take care of you like I do."

You cannot define people or their lives...this is a threat...manipulation...not truth. You love her. Period.

What if, Joe...she doesn't want to be loved this much (you do, I did); and what if being taken care of is what she most resents, what enabled her to have an affair was resenting you, because she feels like a child, instead of your partner? You love your WW. Says nothing about anyone else because that would be disrespectful and untrue. You love your wife. You want to save your marriage. Your love is real and true. No fantasy. To stay real, don't lie.

Thank you LA.

Your words are not judging they are the truth, truth is not judging, sometimes
I think I’m saying the right things but I guess I’m not.
I’m reading Facing love addiction it’s still in print it’s actually been revised,

It’s strange but it’s about us the only problem is she was the love addict, and I was the
Avoidant, now we traded places, but only in our R, she is still a love addict towards OM.

I guess what pushed her away from me was distancing myself, and now she withdrew,
And I’m pursuing, it even said that in the book, you could switch places sometimes.

It’s weird because a while back before OM was in the picture, I told her that we
Switched places, she never answered. But I knew it now this book is clarifying things
Thanks for the tip I owe you one.

Now the school about possible contact contacted me, and they are following up on it.
They said the pastor is out of town for a week but he will be back soon.

I agree a 100% with me talking too much.

I keep reminding myself listen and repeat, but if I don’t start the conversation she will stay silent.
And you
I was thinking this morning about a 180 and how to do it without disconnecting from my WW.

Because if I lose my love for her I don’t know what would happen, because my love
Is keeping me from seeing all these awful things she is doing to me, without the love I have for her, nothing will keep motivating me to recover, I really don’t trust her now,
She is being very secretive, and quiet.


I don’t even have a clue how to do a 180.
And can I still talk to her about logistical stuff?
Can I still ask her if she needs more money without sounding rude or unkind?
Can I still ask her if she wants to go out for dinner?

I’m glad you liked my metaphor LA sometimes I come up with weird stuff don’t I?

i will try to update later.

"I think I’m saying the right things but I guess I’m not."

This is how you know your intent...your intent is to be honest...your intent is pure. Would you consider that why you feel like you're saying the right things? You are doing the honest thing...you share yourself. I'm showing you where you go astray, with good intentions.

In the book, we can be both Avoidance Addicts and Love Addicts...depends on our FOO triggers (Family of Origin)...and circumstance. She is not a love addict of OM...she finds relief in fantasy...as in my case, I made my H my relief even as I made him up in my mind...my real love came from years of experience; my mind remained in fantasy until the last two, when I realized my addiction and accepted my real H...and knew I chose to love him...and I was free.

Yes, this is the dance we spoke of...switching places, back and forth...why do you think we grow up believing we cause, control and cure others? Because when we withdraw, someone else pursues and vice versa! Illusion, isn't it? Still choice...choice to react instead of consciously act, with awareness.

Thank God (literally) he made it so only one can change that dance...and amazingly, when you stand still.

Thank you for your post because that is what I'm asking you to do...to stand still...not pursue or withdraw...staying present...

I retract the 180 for now. Stay still. Present. Open to hear, not to share. Learn to listen to her silence and catch your DJ's in your mind about the silence.

Staying silent to hear your own thoughts more, your own urges...are you like me? Do you love the power of words? Are they magical to you, as they were to me? I believed if I could say the magic words, life changed...because it did, as a child. I could delight with words, later with stories, with poetry and cards...like I caused joy, controlled happiness and cured sadness.

I didn't.

That's why they say people find you funny...their sense of humor...not our jokes. And we find ourselves funny. We didn't know, that was enough, did we? See how we ripple around the world? By being, not by doing.

"Because if I lose my love for her I don’t know what would happen, because my love
Is keeping me from seeing all these awful things she is doing to me, without the love I have for her, nothing will keep motivating me to recover, I really don’t trust her now,"

Would you consider trusting yourself more? I know it took time for me to prove to myself my own changes...to learn to trust myself...to break that earning love belief and replace it fully with my choice to love...

If love isn't earned, then it isn't destroyed by actions. You see her terrible choices...you see her destruction isn't only outward...you feel it and so does she...as do your children and so many others...nothing is keeping you from seeing this...and if you'll consider the possibility that humans do damage and are loved, anyway, then you'll better choose, when the time comes.

You choose to love, Joe. You won't lose it. There may come a time when you choose not to...and you will know that as your choice. Valid. Until then, trust yourself more...your choice is your power and you can rely on that.

Love is separate from trust when you make it a choice. Trust is part of love, not its entirety. Acceptance, appreciation, honesty, patience, admiration...a long, long list are parts of loving and feeling loved. Think on this and why it is okay to choose to love when you do not trust. And it is okay not to trust.

The same way it is okay to not believe when someone lies, and decide to believe when they no longer lie...your choice.

"She is being very secretive, and quiet." How about...she isn't sharing herself. No DJ there.

"I’m afraid if I do a 180 and stop talking to her she would shut down and drift further away." Let's talk more of what you believe 180 is and what I believe it is...

"I don’t even have a clue how to do a 180.
And can I still talk to her about logistical stuff?
Can I still ask her if she needs more money without sounding rude or unkind?
Can I still ask her if she wants to go out for dinner?"

Great questions...would you be willing to address this in a day or so? I'd like your thoughts on what I wrote first.

"I’m glad you liked my metaphor LA sometimes I come up with weird stuff don’t I?" Weird is a judgment...I LOVED your metaphor and plan on stealing it whenever possible. Not weird...wonderful. To me.

LA

Thank you LA my WW somehow found my post she got upset.

I will update later.

No rush...listen and repeat...Hear why she's upset...not that you're doing it, 'k?

LA

Good morning LA.

It’s hard to stay still, it’s hard to stay present when you feel that your future is slipping away, it’s like asking me to count my blessings or be present while falling from a 100 stories building and getting half way through, saying to myself so far so good,
I mean I know what’s going to happen, I am definitely going to hit the ground because I’m looking down and there is no soft spot to land on, either I’m going so hit the pavement, or I’m going to learn how to fly in the next few seconds.
What I’m trying to say is sometimes the future is predictable.

Now about my wife finding the post was it pure luck or was it gods will I don’t know.
Like I said before I feel guilty when I keep secrets from her, so she knew I was
Posting and getting feedback from MB.
But I underestimated her intelligence.
You know the screen name is a number that only means something to me, and my name is not Joe, Joe is my best friend that I didn’t see for about 13 years he lives back home.
(Strange I got the first email from him last week I still didn’t answer back).

But since every other detail of my story is true an accurate she started reading and
She knew it was me.

She wasn’t upset about me posting, she was upset because she wanted me to believe
Her that she did not talk to OM on Monday and it was very important to her for me
To believe her. I asked her why do you care, yesterday you didn’t believe that you where
My wife, you didn’t believe in marriage, and I heard you telling me that you didn’t care
What I thing about you.

She said I guess I do care what you think about me, I told you I decided to stay together
Just for the sake of the kids.

I told her that it doesn’t matter if she did contact him yesterday or not it doesn’t matter if I believed her or not, what matters is my boundaries are NC from now on, but her actions
Is her choice, I told her that he is under a microscope
And any contact will jeopardize his life.

Then I mentioned the book I’m reading about love addiction, and affairs are addictive
She replied that he might not be addicted.

I told her that I had mentioned that to him during our meeting
He made it sound like he was trapped into it. Which he made his choice to be trapped?
But after that it will become an addiction.

I then said that we have hope we can work on our marriage after NC is been established
But we cannot do it on our own we are going to need help.

And we left it at that.

Now my heart tells me to believe her, my brain tells me not to.
I have a bad feeling about this, but I’m going to brace for the worst and hope
For the best.

(I did not hold back even though I know she might read this, I’m only telling the truth.)

Now back to your post LA.

I love it. I understand that we are both in this addictive turmoil the dance like you call it
I will try to stay silent or only state my own thoughts.

Quote:
“Are you like me? Do you love the power of words? Are they magical to you, as they were to me? I believed if I could say the magic words, life changed...because it did, as a child. I could delight with words, later with stories, with poetry and cards...like I caused joy, controlled happiness and cured sadness.

I didn't.”

Strange you asked that growing up I hated righting I hated words, poems meant nothing to me, I was more of a science guy, if doesn’t make sense if I can’t touch it or prove it it’s not worth my effort.

I found the urge to right later in life it was only when I had a heart crisis

This is the 2n’d time I right my feelings down, the first time was about
18 years ago I became friends with a volunteer ad the Red Cross and we hited of
I didn’t have anybody in my life back then, and I had no idea she was in a relationship with somebody for over 8 years and they where planning on getting married, but at the time we went out they where having problems, I found out
The hard way about a month into our R, it was never physical but we went out
Every night just talked had fun; I remember the fog I was in.
This was devastating to me, we stayed in contact, and it took me 6 months to get
Over her, and I did they got married I was at the wedding, we stayed friends
I was completely over her. I just had to except that she was never mine to begin with.
I wrote my feelings down it was a letter addressed to an anonymous person.
It was in French. I think I still have this letter.

I know I had it because my wife found the English translation version and she asked me how come I don’t right love letters for her. This was a while back.

Well now I am been righting for more then a year now, I wrote poems letters feelings, good and bad stuff I gave her some of it, but kept the rest.

Wow I wondered of big time here it felt good going back to these days though!!!! Sorry.

So my answer is yes I am like you I love the power of words they are magical, I do think that words can change life, I always made cards for her on different occasions,
Some made her cry, some made her laugh. I don’t think they changed her life though.

Quote:
“She is not a love addict of OM...she finds relief in fantasy”
I’m trying hard to believe that.

Quote:
“Would you consider trusting yourself more? I know it took time for me to prove to myself my own changes...to learn to trust myself...to break that earning love belief and replace it fully with my choice to love...”

Yes I do trust myself, at least for now, I know how deep my love for her is, and you are right about me seeing everything she is doing.

Quote:

“Love is separate from trust when you make it a choice. Trust is part of love, not its entirety. Acceptance, appreciation, honesty, patience, admiration...a long, long list are parts of loving and feeling loved. Think on this and why it is okay to choose to love when you do not trust. And it is okay not to trust.

The same way it is okay to not believe when someone lies, and decide to believe when they no longer lie...your choice.”

You nailed it here you this is the answer I’ve been looking for, I do love her
But I don’t trust her at this moment.

Actually I trust her with other things but not with OM, sometimes I don’t want to ask her so she doesn’t have to lie. This is a DJ isn’t it?
At least I’m finding my own dj’s now isn’t that cool.

Wow this is my longest post ever. I don’t know if you can follow my chain of thoughts.

Sorry.

((((LA))))

Good morning, Joe...

I know I am encouraging you to do what is contrary to everything in you...previously. You have new stuff...

"What I’m trying to say is sometimes the future is predictable."

It is the very thing which holds your fear that also contains your salvation...it IS unpredictable...if you choose to look down, see clouds...and yes, you might fly, instead...unpredictable. Present is all we have...truly. Within our human design.

Pick your most uplifting image and hold that...could be you're falling all those stories and you stop and begin to walk up the side of the building...empower yourself. Pick your images...they are yours. They can be anything at all.

When your WW asked you to believe her, you can honestly answer, "I am afraid to believe you." See how your truth isn't about her making you believe her or not? The core reality remains...what you feel...and yes, you can choose not to believe her for now...and be open to that changing as what you see becomes regular...

She slipped, didn't she? Like my WH, she is holding the line in her belief she is only there for the children. Do not believe this, either...your choice. Know why? Because it represents safety and separateness to WS's...and she slipped when she said she cared what you thought of her...

She cares what people think of her. That's what you know. No more or less. She wants to be believed.

Good to know.

Her reading here lifts my heart...something my DH has not done...though he comes to sit with me while I write, more and more...interested...afraid to post for his own reasons...his own self-doubt. We are brave souls, 213, because we had those same doubts and fears...and we face them, don't we, in each post?

Time and no contact...no LBs...loving anyway...you can do this...no free fall...more of a plod some days and flight on others...

Thank you for your story of words...of how you opened...what you learn...all of it...these are the O&H statements you're practicing here, for you and your marriage. That's what I believe.

Not asking is not asking...define your intent...if it is pure, no DJ...if it is fearful, most likely, DJ...assumptios or mindreading...we aren't given that power (and I believe, for great reason)...

If you feel the urge to speak to her from her...not disclosing to her BUT here...please fend off that choice...because direct is how you connect.

Gosh, I'm trendy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, write Joe back...he reached out...reach back.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

thank you LA I will right joe back now.

i will keep updating as things progress.

Hi again.

I e-mailed Joe he replied it was good to hear from him after all these years,
His wife is a very good friend of mine too, I asked him for phone numbers,
And stuff.
he wrote in french my french is so rusty even though I understand it it's hard for me to write in now.

I forgot one more detail my wife asked me yesterday to keep posting on MB
Since it makes me feel better, and that she wouldn’t read the posts anymore,
I told her I don’t know if I would or not but she is more then welcome to read
All my posts they are my truth and I put my heart in them, and actually I would like her
To read them.

I don’t know if she will or not. But I hope she does.

Your last post didn't answer my question...oh, wait, Alex Trebeck...I didn't phrase it as one...

"If you feel the urge to speak to her from her...not disclosing to her BUT here...please fend off that choice...because direct is how you connect."

Do you want her to read here to know you better? Would this mean your drive-by O&H statements are repeats or updates?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is from my experience...of wanting my WH to read here, or my emails...read anything...because I would write what I wouldn't say. Guess what? I had to learn to say it...

Irony? Now he likes to read what I write.

ROFL.

See why I say stay present? I couldn't have predicted this present...it's wonderfully surprising...living without the DJ's is pure freedom.

I digress.

Self-focus, 213...dang, I called you Joe in my last post at the beginning, full well knowing you weren't Joe...now I'm back to numbers.

::::

Heehee. You're the Los Angeles area code...did you know that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

HI LA.
If you feel the urge to speak to her from her...not disclosing to her BUT here...please fend off that choice...because direct is how you connect."

I hear you LA and I agree with you, but I don’t mind her readings my posts. they are
Out of my heart, no lies no pretending, just my feelings and thoughts.

And you can call me Tony this is my real name.

Now that wife found this forum I don’t have to hide anymore,
And you know what, I feel better now that she knows, because like I told you before
I don’t like to keep secrets from her, even though she knew I was posting on MB, I never thought she will actually try to read or even could find my posts.

I don’t know what she read but she is acting way different since, in a good way.

I guess don’t even ask, stay present and today this second I feel good, I should take
This as a blessing.

Tony.

My brain just looped...

I called you Joe...my H's first name...

We call him Tony.

ROFLMAO!!! Whoa. This might sound like Phoebe from the tv show "Friends," but have you ever felt your brain somersault? Wow. It's kinda fun.

LOL!

Good to know this isn't about writing down and not stating to...yes, radical honesty says be who you really are, here and there...and you know that. That was me, living from my past...not you.

I caught you in a should...

LOL

I'm glad she found your posts and this forum...

She's welcome here...there are many of us, dorry, MrsWondering...who have been in her shoes...

Have you asked about doing communication exercises yet?

LA

This is strange the name, I mean now let me get this straight your H’s name is Joe and you call him Tony?
Wow this is weird.

What are communication exercises?

First name was his father's...middle name is shortened...to distinguish who his mother was calling for dinner...

Did you get the brain loop?

LOL

Awww...communication exercises. There are a few out there, in different books..."Fighting For Your Marriage" by Howard Markman, Susan Bloomberg and Scott Stanley has one...where you sit down for chat...and each of you has three cards; one marked with a plus sign, one with a zero and one with a negative sign.

Did you see Lord of the Flies? Where the speaker has the conch? You pick a small object...I forget, but they suggest a few ones, very cool...I think one was a magnet that could be on your refridgerator...anyway, it is the speaker object.

First, one of you takes the speaker object (man, that does sound much more sterile than conch, doesn't it?)...and you speak...when you are finished, you hand the speaker object to your the other person. If you have a question on what the other person is saying, you ask their intent for a certain sentence...and they hold up one of the cards...whether what they are saying has a postiive intent, a neutral one or a negative one.

No arguing...only clarifying. Surprising. Interesting. Tones the listener skills and shows us our own filters...how we hear things, take things...

The one my DH and me have done for over a year is where twice a week, we sit down and one of us speaks for 20 minutes straight...and the listener cannot speak...only listen. At the end of the time, the listener summarizes what the speaker said for five minutes...and in the last five minutes of the half-hour, the speaker confirms or clarifies the listener's summary.

Then neither of you can talk about whatever it was spoken for 24 hours.

I loved that part. And hated it.

LOL

If you want to address something, after 24 hours, you can ask. Then you repeat the exercise no sooner than 24 hours after that, and no less than 72 hours. We worked it out for Sundays and Thursdays...and keeping with it made all the difference, I believe.

I was surprised how it stilled the noise in my head, listening to remember and repeat for 20 minutes...same for my DH...it is like the hopper on your head by default...remembering words and what you're hearing for that long aces out a lot of reactions...because you'll miss stuff.

Felt like taking achievement tests in schools, honest.

Safe communication...obiding by the rules...showing respect for them...translated to each other.

There are others...but I'm blank, from remembering...you know why I really emphasize knowing first what yours is yours and hers is hers? Because to do these exercises and not react, respond, break the rules--and not stuff or dwell...I really needed to see that his thoughts, feelings and beliefs were truly his...

LA

20 min talk what do you talk about?

well now i have more then enough to talk about because
we havn't been talking for a long time but after
the dust settels, and after we talk everything down.
what else to talk about for that long?
maybe it's me.

Talking for 20 minutes...you share your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...

Comes out what you've been thinking about, something you saw, realized, noted...what you enjoyed that day or week; what you feel right then...about work, family, the house, your life...lots of stuff...

Like opening your mind and letting them fall out of your mouth...you about you...no judgments, just information...shared.

Oh, and you listen to your own self, without judgment, because after the summary, you have to add what points where missed...heehee...or not, if they weren't...you'll find it difficult to remember those 20 minutes when you hear them summarized.

The no judgment part? Really difficult...gets easier and easier...

I think it isn't you...it's human.

Sitting quietly during the pauses helps to build trust...you can't prompt, so you wait...or are waited on...opening your mind is far more difficult...no preaching, teaching...have to say what you want, need, desire, yearn for...what you spend time thinking about...and your mind goes blank...very present during those minutes...gets better the more often you do it.

Harder to listen, IMO...raises our focus and attention...

Well worth the effort, I promise.

LA

Thanks LA.

I get it now. I don’t know if she is willing to talk or communicate anything at this time
She is still in the fog, I don’t know about the NC yet.
No more calls from school though.

I know they make it hard for them to communicate, but hard is not impossible,
If they want to contact they will, now they will get caught.
And the consequences will be bad.

It’s their choice; all I can do is ask for NC from her, which I already did,
And I told her that I cannot make her do anything this will be her choice.


Tony

Agreeing to do communication exercises isn't necessarily being intimate...it is practicing...could be recalling childhood memories...favorite things...disliked things...a getting to know each other again place...

Safety demonstrated.

However, if she doesn't...withdrawal sucks...especially when it starts over and over again (I know...I remember)...staying the course, sometimes, takes two hands and a good wind...

Keep reading and knowing...how did you feel reading Facing Love Addition? What were your emotions?

LA

I’m still reading it confusing stuff, seems like they are talking about us,
The few argument we had during our marriage; when things don’t seem to
Go her way she leaves the room.
I learned not to argue with her, I wish I had that book then,
But you know how it goes if it isn’t broken don’t fix it.

I might need to read this book more then once, but really good stuff.

It looks,like I said earlier she was/is the love addict and I was/am the love avoidant

When she withdrew I am pursuing now.

So does that make us switch roles?
Am I the love addict now?
Is she the love avoidant, towards me only?

I found out that I started getting more in touch with my emotions after the kids
Blessed our life…
Nothing moved me before. Maybe because all the horrors I’ve seen in my lifetime, I don’t know.

But I got my emotions back now. Thanks god for that.
sometimes i wonder are emotions a blessing or a curse.

It breaks my heart to see her cry, she is down and very calm now,
She told me yesterday that she has very little friends at school, and she feels
Uncomfortable around the people their, and the teacher she consider a good friend
Was supposed to meet her at school yesterday and she didn’t, what a good friend.

Latter after the kids went to bed I sat next to her and told her that I will always be her
Friend no matter what, and if she needed to vent anything I will listen with my mouth shut.
She said ok I kissed her hand and wished her a good night.

I’m trying to find the silver lining in all of this, like I always like to do.
I’m trying to count my blessings by looking at other people’s agony
I read about the man that his wife left him and left the kids to live
With OM, I read about the man that his wife kicked him out the house
And even invited the OM to their sons birthday.
I read about the man that his WW took the kids away to live with OM.

And I think to myself, I’m still in shallower waters, my wife is still home
She is taking a good care of our kids; she even talks to me now.

I want to thank my wife for this humbling experience, I want to thank her
For what she did.
Because after the A, and the last few month, I read more books then I did
In my whole life.
I know more about myself then I ever did before, I know more about my wife then I ever did before, I know more about raising and communicating with my kids more then ever before.
I know that I love my wife more then ever before, I know that I like loving my wife
Even though she is not lovable at this time.

I am a changed man and I like who I am.
I like being calm when the storm is raging around me, I like being loving when
Love is been betrayed.
I’m standing up strong and wiling to stay the course, because my wife is worth my effort
To get her back to port.

When I was in college and later on in life I had this poem by Rudyard Kipling framed on top of my desk I used to read it when things got tough I just thought about it was entitled IF. I’m going to frame it again and read it more often.
I think this is what everybody is doing here, it does apply.
And here it goes. It might help somebody else over here.


[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!


--Rudyard Kipling

I love that poem, also...and you acknowledging you love the way you are is inspiring, also.

Save your thank yous for awhile...because she has her own way to take to getting there herself.

So know this for yourself...what you believe is valid. The gratitude you feel is valid. And you're not alone.

LA

Hi LA.

I don’t know why she came to MB to begin with, but I’m glade she did.

Like I said Monday was our anniversary, she didn’t believe in marriage then,
And she didn’t feel like she was my wife anymore, and she didn’t care what I thought about her.

The next day after she read my posts it was very important to her, for me to believe what
She was telling me about the contact with OM.

She is been very pleasant to be with; since then she is talking to me showing me and reading me jokes on her e-mail. It’s like a switch had flipped or something.

This weekend was great, I got home on Saturday around noon, and I asked her if she wanted
To go have some lunch, and like usual we couldn’t decide where to go.
Part of it is that she is on a diet, (she doesn’t need one by the way, but I’m not the one to tell her that), and I feel guilty choosing a restaurant that is going to screw her diet up.

I named a few places, and then she said.
Do you want to go to …?

I interrupted with a yes.

She said how did you know what I was going to say?
I told her I didn’t I just said yes in advance.
She started laughing, I missed her laugh, my heart got warm at this moment (I didn’t make her laugh for a long time now you know).
She said ok let’s go, I asked her where?
She said you will know when we get there; well she guided me to one of my favorite,
And her favorite Lebanese restaurant. (We never had been there for over 2 years).
We had a great lunch, we took the kids later to swim, and we had lots of fun.

Sunday was pleasant to she took the kids to church, I was not invited, I never forced
Myself, (I did wanted to go though, but I didn’t want to push it), like everybody says
Baby steps.

Now, I have more questions the answers and I didn’t want to ask anything yet.
She is being so good and nice I don’t want to ruin anything.

My heart is under my feet, I am terrified, and I don’t know why she turned this way.

What did she read in my posts?
Did she have a change of heart?
Did she read somebody else’s story?
Is this the beginning of our new life?
Is this the beginning of the end?
Is she acting this way so I get of her back?
Is she being nice to protect OM’s job? But wait this is not in my hands he is being watched by a lot of people, I don’t know.
Did she see my pain and felt guilt or sorry?

Now I understand her feeling when she told me “ you’re to nice I don’t trust you I think you’re up to something”.

Don’t get me wrong I miss trusting her, my heart want to believe that I do, but I’m scared
To trust her, at this point.
I know she still misses OM, and I definitely don’t trust him at all, especially after my meeting with him.

Last night after the kids went to sleep, I went downstairs dug up our photo albums.

Her first B-DAY together, this was the day I proposed to her, you could see the
Glow on her face.

Before that I even had my doubts about our marriage, but when I looked at those pictures
I felt like I was seeing them for the first time in my life I could see the love in our eyes
While we where gazing at each other, I guess this is the first time I looked at those pictures with my heart. My eyes started watering, a tear went down my cheek and I felt a lump in my throat. (It’s hard for me to cry you know.)

I saw our wedding pictures, one picture I was checking her pulse I remember now she was asking me to check her it to make sure she was alive, she couldn’t believe it and I couldn’t believe that we where getting married.(I remember every second now I feel like
I went back in time, and you know what, I will marry her again in a heart beat, yes even
If I knew the outcome back then, it was great while it lasted; we had a lot of good times.)
I don’t score high in the looks department you know.
And now I got older and I look older, so maybe she is not attracted to me anymore I don’t know.

She is a gorgeous woman you know, she had platinum hair back then, she used to style it like Madonna, but she looks a 100 times better then Madonna, and she even looks better now Then she did back then, she looks that good when she wakes up in the morning.
She looks like an angel, MY ANGEL.

My wife is 5’ 11”165 lbs.
Great body.
Perfect complexion, long dark hair, awesome green eyes, what can I say, I’ve been
With her for over 13 years and she still turns me on.
IMHO she is a stunning woman she is the most beautiful woman I have ever
Known. But I can’t say that to her, you know with her condition, she wouldn’t believe me Anyway.

I’m happy now but my heart is aching more then ever, and it's pounding more then ever i feel that it's going to jump out of my chest, I don’t know why but I think it’s the fear.
And I still Love her Anyway.


Tony.

Say it to her, anyway - over and over and over and over.....

BB

thanks BB i tried she just gets to upset.

Oh, Tony...you're learning...

You're learning about DJs! You are...wanting to go around knowing what she thinks, feels and believes...and how crazymaking that is...

Your fear stops you from knowing her truth...her whys...safer to spend your time guessing, calculating, gathering evidence to support the DJ which stops you from being intimate.

Being true to yourself is harder than it sounds...so many old habits...you recognized that you had nearly convinced yourself, through her, she never loved you...and you went to the basement with that question...and you got YOUR truth...not THE truth...she did, does and will again...

Hold your truth, Tony. It's yours. It is valid.

When you betray yourself by not speaking your truth because of the response you might or might not get, then you are cementing the future...and insuring you do not have to be O&H, too risky...speak anyway.

This to a man I told talked too much.

Know her loving acts for what they are...loving...the restaurant (and you're right on for being considerate of her choice to diet and not DJing it); her laughter, her willingness to be there, really there, which is what is different.

And do not stand on invitation...you're married. You're a family. You can go to church at your own invitation, which is your desire...do not flip around in self-deceit that you can't because you weren't invited...this is where DJs have a payoff in not being true to ourselves...yes, from fear.

Give yourself to permission to be new...for your WW to be new...no DJs...not to her and not to yourself.

Focus on them. Ferret them out.

I believe you're fearing joy right now...know it and sit with it. You're fearing feeling so good, attributing it all to her, when you're half of it...the half you do not have to fear at all...and if you do, hold it as your own, and do not act from it.

Feel your joy, anyway.

You cried...you were moved and expressed it. You're feeling your feelings...you're doing that...self-care can feel like pain at first, because to me, it was too tender for me to look at, comprehend, and I self-based, thinking, why hadn't I done this all along?

I wasn't ready. Your trip to the basement for the albums was you going within...for you...feel proud of how brave you are on this journey...congratulate yourself...be more directly honest with yourself...then you won't have to go through her to get to you.

You are a beautiful creation of God...to doubt that is to doubt God. Judging your own looks is a DJ with a payoff...your wife fell in love with you for your whole package...you're beautiful in her eyes...find out why you are not in your own...comparing to others? Some visual index? You do to yourself what your wife does to herself...common in enmeshment...find your reasons for not seeing your unique and marvelous face as your own, having to judge it, instead.

Every day, you're new. Open yourself to see your new life, each day, also...be present. Be honest, outloud and inside. Do not give yourself permission to be response-based...only your code dictates what you say and how you act...

And you have Openness and Honesty in that code.

Others may be upset with your truth...state your truth, anyway. Respect their feelings as theirs. Respect.

Respect will never require you to be disrespectful to yourself.

Those Paradoxical Commandments again...

LA

Good morning LA.

(Thank you for the words of encouragement I always feel better after I read your replies, by the way you nailed everything on the head)...

I don’t know what I’m getting LA, I am so confused right now, I don’t know who I am
Anymore.
Yesterday the kids where yelling and running around, you know being kids.
I asked them if they wanted to look at some pictures when mommy and me went to Lebanon, so they can settle down, they seemed very interested we spent a good amount of time Looking at old pictures, my DD told me I want to look like mommy when I grow up, I told her she is pretty isn’t she, she said yes I want to look just like her.

I wish I didn’t dig those pictures up.

I couldn’t get enough of looking at her, her smile her eyes, her hair, I could see her soul in those pictures, I remembered every picture I took, I could hear her voice, I could hear her laughter, I miss her laughter, I miss her smile, the kids kept nagging turn the page daddy, I was in A trans.

I tiered up again my DS asked me if I was crying I told him no it was allergies, he ran upstairs told his mom, came back down and said I told mommy that you are crying,
I asked him why he told her that, he said sorry I didn’t know.Bless his heart he thinks mommy can fix everything,
this is his truth by the way, mommys can fix everything.

Anyway, I gathered myself and went upstairs, the kids where playing in their rooms,
She was sitting down very sad and calm watching TV.

We talked for a while; I asked her what happened after she read my post,
I told her that I’m not complaining but Monday she didn’t believe in marriage,
Didn’t feel like she was my wife anymore, and didn’t care what I thought about her.

And Tuesday it seemed very important to her for me to believe what she was saying, and she is acting different in a good way.
She said I’m trying to make everybody happy.
I acknowledged that, then I asked her if she misses OM, she said yes, with a tear on her cheek.
I told her I understand, because I feel the same way too, then I asked her if she feels a
Pain in her chest, she said sometimes, I told her mine never leaves.
She was crying I started tearing up I couldn’t help it, I told her that I didn’t know why I still love her, and that I miss her so much even thought she is still here, and that I always thought and still think that she is the most beautiful loving woman I have ever known,
And seeing her so sad tears me up inside, and that I wish I could do something to make her feel Better, but I can’t, I feel helpless right now.

I told her that I wanted to trust her but I’m scared to, she said she understands.
I told her that I don’t trust OM especially after my meeting with him, and after talking
To OMW.
And that she shouldn’t feel guilty about what happening to OM, because it wasn’t her fault only,
It was OM’s fault too. This was in the light of a new finding I learned from OMW.
And I told her about the finding.

Then I asked her if she knew how sincere I was, she said yes.

I leaned over, held her hand kissed it, kissed her forehead, kissed her lips.
Then I asked her to look at me, she did, and I could see the pain in her green eyes,
Swimming in an painful ocean of tears, I could see my wife not my WW, but my
LOVING WIFE, for the first time in the last year.
I know I could be wrong but like you said LA this is my truth and I believe it.
I told her that I loved her with all my heart, and that I will do anything for her.
Then I left the room.

Latter on we took the kids to watch the fireworks it was fun.


This morning I am feeling worse, I don’t know why I’m doing this to myself.
I shouldn’t (Yes LA another should) have looked at those pictures.
I’m realizing more and more that I did, still do and will be, always IN LOVE with here.

We are so enmeshed with each other it’s suffocating us.

How did you do it LA? It is so painful to even think about my life without her, I even told her that I would marry her again knowing the outcome, because it was great while it lasted.

According to DR Harley my love bank is been in the red for a long time, so how come
I still love her so much?

I wish I could stop loving her, life would me much easier, and less painful.
I wish I could withdraw from my addiction to her.

I wish she could see herself through my eyes then she will be cured.

I can spend the rest of my life just looking at her, and holding her in my arms.
This is my story, this is my truth, and this is my life.

The pain is unbearable today, my head feels light, my muscles are aching, and my chest is
Heavy, my heart is aching, I feel that I want to die;
I think it's the fear,it sure does feel like fear, I just don't know what I'm afraid of anymore; I hope I can make it through the day,
I know it will get better, I hope it will be soon.

It is my choice to love, it is my choice to stay, and I wish the pain could go away,
I wish the time could move faster, but it doesn’t.

Tony.

Update

I'm feeling a little better tonight.

You're welcome...thank you for posting even when I don't hit anything...not a nail or a barn...

" I don’t know who I am
Anymore."

Yes, you do. You can feel one way right now, and in the next second, know yourself again...trust you will circle back around, again and again...you're not going anywhere...you always do have you.

"I tiered up again my DS asked me if I was crying I told him no it was allergies,"

Ack! You lied to your son...uhm, Tony? He cries, his sister cries...his mommy cries...you now can cry...lying is a whole 'nuther thang, 'k? I know it caught you off guard...be prepared..."I'm crying because I love your mother...I loved taking these pictures."

Truth.

Stay in it.

And I believe you're right about his truth. You can ask, though.

"I asked him why he told her that, he said sorry I didn’t know."

Why ask why...he went from protecting you to feeling shame...he isn't part of your WW's drama...or yours. You felt caught...old stuff...and lied...then accused...know that pattern. "Men can cry. I'm okay."

When I read that, I flashed on my Dad's face bunching up, squirming in his chair in front of the television...I was probably four...and I asked him what was wrong...and he said, "I just have heartburn" and he did. I thought his heart was burning up...death imminent.

I share because what occurs to me may not seem important while I think of you, but it might be just the thing...

"She said I’m trying to make everybody happy.
I acknowledged that, then I asked her if she misses OM, she said yes, with a tear on her cheek."

Oh, Tony...here is the kicker..."How does it feel, trying to make everybody happy?"

See, selfless stuff builds resentment...into entitlement...and lacks respect for self...

Not that you did this wrong...you were loving, acknowledging and you held her truth, though hurtful, in your own hands...

Then you progress to this...

"And that she shouldn’t feel guilty about what happening to OM, because it wasn’t her fault only,"

Dear Tony--please do not DJ your WW...or any other human. You are attempting to cure her, the situation...and it is disrespectful and parental...do not father your wife...

You nailed how you do it...separate the addiction from loving by choice...see where she fills you and fill yourself...you aren't pushing her out of you; you are stopping the addictive parts...the fantasy parts...would you be willing to face your addiction if you knew that your wife was even MORE awesome than you imagine in her real state...and eliminate the parts you made up?

Separating from the enmeshment, owning my addiction, physically felt the same for me...like something being torn out of me...and it was...the fantasy part...where I made my H into something he wasn't...and if I can create him, I could destroy him...remember, Tony, beliefs are two-way streets at all times.

Paintime moves slowly...refocus on yourself...not bashing, not judging...knowing you...do "Owning All Your Villagers" thread...learn more about you, that self you deprive when your focus is consumed by her...she needs you to be whole and complete in yourself...you can do this...it isn't straightforward and really, it was awful...have you shared your realization of your love addiction with her?

Think of everything you want to do with her...holding forever...looking into her eyes...and flip that to yourself...can you say the same? Loving yourself, wanting to be with you forever, looking into your own eyes...knowing you are you...worthy and valuable?

Takes time and determination...you've got both. Your WW is in NC, withdrawal, and present in your home. Your children are there...your life is one day at a time...you are doing this...be aware, with counseling, you would have that time set every week...refocusing, examining...

When does counseling start?

LA

Hi LA.

Last night I was thinking.

213 is LA’s area code like you said. And it is my old Red Cross center number; it was changed to 601 after they rezoned the districts.
Coincidence? Maybe?
This is how I put my login name together 213601.

Just some info.

I know I shouldn’t have lied to my DS, he knew that I was crying, and I shouldn’t have asked why. I will say sorry and thank you to him. I guess I wasn’t thinking.

“Trying to make other people happy…selfless stuff builds resentment...into entitlement...and lacks respect for self...”

True most of the time I always tried to make my dad happy all it did is create resentment
Towards him, all these years I didn’t know why, now I do.

Now trying to make my WW happy as far as I know is only creating more love for her,
It just feels right, even thought it doesn’t feel that she appreciates it, or maybe because it doesn’t feel that she appreciates it, this is where my love for her changed, because I’m not expecting anything in return. I did resent her before because I was doing, expecting to earn love, not anymore. I’m doing expecting MY love for her to grow deeper, and stronger; and it is, I love her a little more every day, I can feel it, she can feel it.

Am I making sense here? Am I untangling myself from her reactions, or am I
Driving myself deeper into my love addiction?
Help me out here.

Thank you for sharing your little story, about your dad.

And thank you for the info about the painful act of separating from the enmeshment,
It’s good to know that it’s painful.

I’m trying to love myself and be separate, and like you said it’s not easy.

Yesterday I shared a letter I wrote for her on our anniversary, entitled
Top 10 reasons why I married you.

She read it, I told her this was my truth, and She can shred it if she wishes, the cried and said I will keep it.

I would post it here but now it’s hers it’s not mine anymore, I have to respect that.

I gave her a hug; I felt that she needed one.

I did mention my love addiction with her.
I will sign up for IC and I will invite her to go, soon.


Tony.

About your son...

You weren't thinking...you feeling, strongly...I'm not bashing you; I am attempting to show you how allowing yourself to feel, express with tears, takes practice and permission...so that tears, from joy, love, sadness...can be shared, not feared.

And teaching your son that would make an awesome man...like in your poem...takes that much strength, and self-knowledge, to be that tenderly honest.

Before I "help me out here," I want to challenge your belief that you love yourself well and true...

because when you do, then you do not resent others...like your dad...

you may approve of yourself...find you meet minimums...but not truly embrace yourself as a marvelous creation, equal to everyone...

Love addicts usually don't. Unless they believe they are really, really good...and that's difficult to maintain with that negative voice in our heads telling us we're fake.

I don't believe you're trying to make your wife happy...I believe you are loving yourself more through her...and all you have to do is get more direct...and not choose to believe this will exclude her...

You are experiencing very close to the overflowing love I've mentioned...loving your choice and acts of love...the way you love...not from the results...

Aligning this to be directly to you, then outward, I think, breaks the addict in us...and we love authentically.

Doesn't take a radical makeover...

Telling her what she alone has choice over...to shred it if she wants to...reinforces she controls you and you control her...another nudge. No bash.

I remember your list...you posted it. You celebrated your anniversary...another act of love. You seemed to worry about it, before hand, the right touch, not too much or too little...how do you believe you did now?

Would you consider not giving her hugs when you DJ her? Would you consider hugging her as an act of love you are choosing...because you make love a verb?

How are you doing with the ups and downs...are you more accepting of these emotions, or less?

LA

Thanks LA.

You know what, I think I’m getting it.
I said to my wife last night that sometimes I feel proud of myself for staying the course
And sometimes I feel pathetic.

She said why pathetic?

I told her sometimes I feel satisfied with the little crumbs from you, maybe a smile, maybe a laugh, and this is pathetic, then I remember that I’m not doing this expecting anything in return, I’m doing this for myself.

After I read your post I realized that I am proud of myself all the time, you don’t know
How many old customers of mine had told me to leave or get a divorce, and how many had told me that they couldn’t do what I’m doing and that it takes a great man to handle
This kind of pressure and stay the course.

When I tell them that she is a great person and that nobody had ever loved me more then
She did and half of the problem was I, and that she did all these great things for me,
And I wasn’t going to drop her for 1 mistake she made.
And she is worth every effort and every tear, and if I didn’t do what I’m doing I will hate
Myself for the rest of my life, and that I don’t like to say what if, I hate what ifs.
So yes I’m doing this for myself, I’m not doing this so she doesn’t hate me, I’m doing this so I don’t hate me.
They pat me on the back and say you are doing the right thing, you are a great man for loving her after what she did to you, one lady told me " I don't think you are human".

And it feels great.( and i know i'm human because it hurts too much).

So yes I do like the new me not bragging but I think very highly of myself, maybe that’s why I don’t have any resentment for her.
Nothing but love.

Quote:
“...how do you believe you did now?”

I’m glade I waited, it wasn’t the right time on our anniversary, and it was the right time yesterday.

I think I got my message through. And I’m happy about it.

My hugs are always out of love, I think or I hope she can feel them. But they are always out of love.

Quote:
“How are you doing with the ups and downs...are you more accepting of these emotions, or less?”

Well today no downs only ups I hope it will last, what a difference a day makes.

I’m trying to gain my 12 lbs back; I’m 5’10” and was 135 lbs for most of my life,
I went down to 117 lbs at one point now I’m at 122 lbs, and stuck; I’m trying though,
Today I had 2 lunches and a huge dinner.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
(By the way she hates me for that, she hates me for eating whatever I want and never gaining an once, I’m not DJing her she told me that).

Oh well. I do have to watch my cholesterol level, does that count as dieting?
(I’m not watching it though, I SHOULD).

Tony.

UPDATE:

I made an apointment for IC/MC.for monday

Another Long UPDATE to my previous post.

Yesterday I had one of those bad days just down don’t know why, just down,
I feel the same today. I guess its part of the coaster.

I know I need to live in the present but my curse is that I am human, and for some reason
God gave us the ability to think about the future, trying to predict the outcome from the
Present circumstances, and its beyond painful, I know I’m terrified right now, I think
Most of my fears are from the uncertainty. Knowing that my WW controls the outcome.

I keep repeating to myself Wortharty’s advice for BS.
She is not my wife she is in the fog the fog is real she is an alien; then I look into her eyes,
I look into her tears, and I can still see my dear wife the woman I love and cherish, (I’m crying now), and I tell myself she is in withdrawal, but wait I’m not even sure of NC yet,
What if they’re still contacting somehow?
I don’t know what to think anymore, all I know is that from the knowledge I got, in the last few months, I can make our marriage wonderful for the rest of our lives.

Today I need a friend, and she needs a friend.
I wish she would step back and realizes that despite what happens I’m the only friend
That is still here for her with my arms and ears open, stretching my hand out, to help
Get us out of this chaos.

Why God gave us a fragile heart Why Gd WHY?

bump up

You had a rough day, Tony. You are vulnerable in the present...she is in withdrawal, I believe...and you have to have a network set up with alarms (and I think you do) about any contact...she has stopped volunteering at the school, is that correct? Or, at least, the kids are out for summer and she isn't going there?

When you dwell on scaring yourself with the future, you are self-bashing...you are getting a payoff, and I would like you to share what it is...

You have been this vulnerable to your marriage the whole time you were married...that hasn't changed...what changed are her choices...and FWW can learn and change...unless you predict them into a future where they do great harm to you again and again, and feeling that now, react to her like it is now...

Where's the payoff?

You hurt. She hurts. She is in charge of herself--respect that. Wait. Plan A...be present.

Be really present.

LA

Hi LA

I’m having a rough life now.

I don’t have any network to verify contact but the school and the church are watching
Him, this will not guarantee no contact, but it will make it very difficult, and they will eventually find out if there is any.

She signed up the kids for summer school, it’s fun stuff, I have no idea where or what she is doing during the day, I don’t know if OM leaves the school for his break, all I know
Is that he is going to counseling with his wife, according to the pastor he is working overtime to save his marriage, that doesn’t mean anything, after I met with him, he promised to send a NC letter, he never told anybody about it, so it didn’t happen yet.
So no I’m not sure about the NC this is why I don’t know if she is in withdrawal yet.

OM said a few disturbing things to me, that gave me the impression that he is not owning
What happened, he is taking some blame, but blaming most of it on my wife.

I’m guessing this is what he told his wife, the pastor and his friends, because everybody at school is sympathizing with him, and puling away from my wife.

She needs a good friend now and I’m not it, she is pushing her best friend away, you know, the one that she first confined in, well her friend cares about her and she did reach out
But my wife is shutting her off.

I told my wife yesterday when bad things happen you filter your friends,

I told her that I will always be her friend and that her family will never leave her,
She nodded her head with a little tear.

She is in a very bad spot now, and I can feel her pain, I wish I didn’t care that much,
But I do, I can barely deal with my own grief, let alone carry hers with me.
I told her, sometimes I feel pathetic waiting for a smile or a laugh from her that would carry me a few days.
I miss my wife LA I miss her so much.

Quote:
“When you dwell on scaring yourself with the future, you are self-bashing...you are getting a payoff, and I would like you to share what it is...”

I don’t know what is the payoff, I think we humans do that, maybe I don’t want to
Get my hope up to high and get another fall, because to tell you the truth, I cannot
Take another fall; it will destroy me, not that this one didn’t but another one so soon
I don’t think I will make it.

I am going to counseling tonight, she is invited, but she doesn’t want to go.

I will update.
Tony.

Update.

I know i need to be present and work on myself but how?

in this chaos. i don't trust them now.

Tony,

"She is in a very bad spot now, and I can feel her pain, I wish I didn’t care that much,"

Does this mean you believe that the amount you love your WW determines whether or not you can feel her pain? Are you saying you wished you cared less so that you wouldn't be feeling double the pain?

You are the feeling the pain of her consequences...as you would one of your children? Is there something in this you can address for me?

You are grieving...you cannot carry another person's grief...it's theirs...great distraction from yours...what are you grieving, specifically? Is it the same thing you believe she's grieving, is that the crossover?

Compassion is not pain you feel for others...empathy is you putting YOURSELF in their shoes...feeling what you would feel, think or believe in the situation...Compassion is knowing we hurt, heal, lose and gain...human living...Compassion is not controlling...either by taking away from another or giving to...it is respecting, listening to acknowledge and understand. That's what I believe.

Confusing the two is like enmeshing ourselves. You can take no action to block her pain...nor would it be respectful of you. She is choosing, every day, her life, her beliefs, actions and perspective. Respect. Listen and repeat...be safe to be shared with.

When you can carry your own grief, fully, in your two hands, know what you're grieving and accept it, then you are really doing something, Tony.

"I don’t know what is the payoff, I think we humans do that, maybe I don’t want to
Get my hope up to high and get another fall, because to tell you the truth, I cannot
Take another fall; it will destroy me, not that this one didn’t but another one so soon
I don’t think I will make it."

You believe hope is out of your control, so you scare yourself into being not so hopeful or expectant, to protect yourself...from being disappointed?

From being destroyed? I believe you will hurt and be disappointed...I do not believe you will be destroyed. You're a human being...a rather miraculous creation...would God allow others to destroy us through their choices? End our lives? Or do we say that, come to believe it, (so jump into the future and the past, tearing our flesh, as if to prepare for it), and predict it...and then live through it?

Good self-care is reaching for your highest level of self-honesty. Sounds sinful, less loving to say we wouldn't be destroyed, doesn't it? We aren't. We are changed, yes. Destroyed, no. A lot of expectations can be destroyed...not our selves. They can feel the same...helpless, done to--and we are not destroyed.

If you were your son to be destroyed if at 32, his wife left him? What would you tell your son, to see him through this? What advice would you give him...that he will be decimated, not exist, and to prepare for it by scaring himself silly to keep his hope down?

I'm not mocking you in anyway...I would like you to see yourself directly, instead of through your WW's eyes, feelings, reactions, beliefs...see yourself truely. Begin there. Your marriage needs respect. You're here. You are who I'm counting on to get that into your marriage, solidly.

I know you miss your wife...very much. I also believe you miss the dance you two did...how much she carried your feelings, and you, hers...so that she believed she couldn't tell you her sorrows, for you took them as your doing...and she believed she couldn't be her, be honest, share herself, for fear of you feeling damaged.

And vice versa.

Can you see how this idea of love falls short? Prevent intimacy instead of promoting it? How can you trust your own feelings when you put them in someone else's hands? How can they trust you?

God has peace in abundance...he'll share...you stand in the swirl of a storm and have peace. Focus. Acceptance. Appreciation. Build your trust in yourself to let go of what isn't yours and know it wasn't real love, only false responsibility...and it kept you both from being truly intimate.

Whatever you do, it will be yours. The illusion is there, the actuality isn't. I believe that's why we cannot be destroyed...or made...except by our own hands, in our ways...and when others make their attempts to do just that, then we feel pain inside...if we buy into their attempts.

I look forward to hearing about counseling...if you are listening and repeating...respecting...validating and acknowledging what is hers...and speaking your stuff, in tiny statements...

Why do you feel pathetic looking for the tiniest approval from your WW?

How much RC time are you doing? Why not ask OMW when he expects to send the NC letter, that you've been waiting on his promise?

LA

Hi LA

Yes I believe that my deep love for her allows me to feel her pain.

No I never wished that I cared less for her, I’d rather be in pain then out of love
For my wife. And if I didn’t care the pain would not be half it would be
No pain, if I didn’t care there would be no pain.

Quote:
“You are the feeling the pain of her consequences...as you would one of your children? Is there something in this you can address for me?”

She is feeling the pain of her consequences, I am feeling her pain, I don’t know how I can explain this, I told her yesterday I wish I could do something to make her feel better.

I’m grieving the loss of my wife my friend my love.
She is grieving the loss of OM’s friendship.

Quote:
“You believe hope is out of your control, so you scare yourself into being not so hopeful or expectant, to protect yourself...from being disappointed?”

I believe hope is in my control, but I am afraid of being disappointed.

Quote:
“You her sorrows, for you took them as your doing...and she believed she couldn't be her, be honest, share herself, for fear of you feeling damaged.”

You are absolutely right about this, I wish she could see that.

Why do I feel pathetic? Because at once I had her all to myself, and I took it for granted,
Now I get some crumbs here and there like a homeless guy digging through the trash
To find some food dumped buy everybody else.

How much recreational time we are doing?
With 2 kids you’re kidding none at this time, she is not in the mood to do anything
At this time I wish she would.

I had my first IC last night, it was good, and like my wife told me a while back,
“You read all these books, and did all these research online, what do you think the counselor is going to tell you that you don’t already know? You are a counselor.”

Well he approved of what I’m doing and the way I’m a handling thing, he knows about MB, and agrees with the content, he is familiar with HNHN, and other DR Harley’s books.

He absolutely agreed to the addiction side of the affair and that no contact must be monitored, and kept, and that what she is feeling for OM is not love, its just fix for her
Addiction, he drew a scale of human feelings it goes from numb to extreme.
And he said she is in the numb state, he asked me how she was with kids I told him better
When the A stopped, he said in the numb state she doesn’t have any feelings towards anybody, (I guess in MB they call this the fog).

And now she is starting to get out of the numb state and she is realizing how painful this is, and the only way to go back in her numb state is to get her fix again,
This is an extremely dangerous and unhealthy cycle, and it will continue forever if nothing is done about it, it’s worse then any drug addiction, and no contact is a must, for her to get back to reality.

Then he told me what I needed to do on my part he said: this is going to be very hard and painful, but I need to look into myself and wipe any resentment, hate, judgments, toward
My wife out of my system, and just be there for my her with my arms open wide, and nailed to the wall.

I told him that I don’t resent my wife I have nothing but love for her and I think that she is a wonderful person that got caught up in this chaos thinking this was true love, and I’m doing exactly what he mentioned.

He looked at me and said, “ I don’t know you enough but got bless your heart, you are a great person what you’re doing is not human, you are a different breed of man, and this is a compliment, who are you? And where this power of forgiveness comes from?”

I told him I am a man in love with my wife, I see her faults, but I see
Her qualities in a higher level.

Forgiveness comes from my life experiences. I found out that resentment and hate hurts
Me inside more then it hurts anybody else, so I decided not to hold resentment.
It is a selfish thing, I guess.

Tony.

Tony,

"She is feeling the pain of her consequences, I am feeling her pain, I don’t know how I can explain this, I told her yesterday I wish I could do something to make her feel better."

So, if your child stole money from a neighbor, was found out and caught, and you grounded her for one week...and she sobbed and moped, great pain of embarrassment...would you be wanting to do stuff to make her feel better?

Would consider this:

"I’m grieving the loss of my wife my friend my love."

Your WW is right there...she is. Could what you are grieving be the loss of the marriage you thought you had? Loss of the image of your wife, the trust, the security?

"She is grieving the loss of OM’s friendship." Would you allow yourself the choice to believe she is grieving the loss of a quick fix, a high, and not a true friendship? AP's aren't friends...they are enemies of each other and their marriages. That realization comes later. For now, she is grieving her fix, like an addict. Your choice what to believe. It matters inside you.

"You are absolutely right about this, I wish she could see that."

More importantly is for you to see it. Honest, Tony...see where you robbed her vicariously...see it wholly and know it...and her, you. See where you blocked intimacy from ignorance and how you are still doing that.

You want to be ready when she comes out of withdrawal, correct?

You still want a thriving, intimate marriage, better than before, correct?

Then consider RC time, too:

"How much recreational time we are doing?
With 2 kids you’re kidding none at this time, she is not in the mood to do anything
At this time I wish she would."

In your mind, do you have your priorities as, "The children, my marriage, my work?"

Maybe you want to rearrange those...moods change...your job is to make the plans and take her along for now. I'm telling you what saved my marriage...which was scheduling three days away...like in SAA...three weeks, he advises, away...moods or no...you staying in reality, getting your priorities in a solid order, and choosing to act.

Good selfish, Tony...and keep up with the counselor...work on the enmeshment with him, 'k?

LA

Good morning LA.

It’s been a few days since I posted on my thread.

I do see it LA I do…

And my prayers have been answered by 2crazy posting on MB.
I can see how similar they are I even asked my WW if this was her posting, the story
And the details are not the same but I thought maybe she changed the background of the story to cover up.
Just before you posted your first post to 2crazy I was about to call up on you to help her
Out, great post by the way, like usual.

I’m trying to help her to, I feel with her H and with her…

A couple of days ago one of my old friend that I didn’t see for a long time called me on my WW’s cell. It was the only number she had for me.

My wife never liked her because, she thought I had some feelings for her back then so I started avoiding her, we where really good friends, and I had some feelings for her, my wife was right about that. To tell you the truth it was good to hear from her.

Yesterday I finally received e-mail from Joe he is away from his family out of the country
On a job, he gave me his wife’s cell number she is still in Lebanon with the kids
They have 2 daughters, we where all best friends way before they got married way before
They started dating, and in 1995 I took my DW to Lebanon and she met his wife.

To make a story short I called (I’m going to call her L by her initial) yesterday,
And from all the days it was her older daughters B day, imagine that, we talked for about
20 minutes; for a moment there I felt in a safe place, or do I say I felt in a safe time,
Because I went back in time, she was telling me about the explosive situation back in
Lebanon she said it’s really bad now. And I remembered the wartime and the Red Cross
We joined the Red Cross together, in 1984, yes 22 years ago, oh god it seems like yesterday. Where does the time go, we are getting old.
She asked me about my W I told her we are having problems, she kind a yelled at me
And told me to do whatever it takes to patch things up with my W, because she liked
My wife, and my wife liked her when they met. And she wished she could be here for us.

I told her that it’s not up to me at this point, and I’m doing my best to save my M.
I didn’t tell her what the problem was, but I told her it was bad.

LA it was great to hear L’s voice after all these years I felt peace in myself knowing
That I still have friends that think highly of me even if they are13000 miles away.

Wow I wondered big time here didn’t I? I took myself to a safe place in time and then
I woke myself up, sorry.

Now about my WW.

She is still hurting a lot, the other day she was very upset all she said when I asked was that she is being more and more humiliated by people at school making her feel
That she is the devil and she is being blamed for what’s going on, I told her I’m sorry she
Is being treated this way, and if she want to talk about it, I can listen,
She said she didn’t want to talk about it.

I wish she could see that OM is the one causing this shift of sympathy towards him,
By making himself look like an innocent victim, I got that vibe from my meeting with him,

I’m thinking if he told me that my WW asked him out on a date, and that he didn’t know
How to stop the A, even after I confronted him on the first D Day, and that he loved his W and that he told my WW that it’s over, I realized that this guy
Is not taking any ownership for his part and blaming my WW for the A.
And after he promised me to send a NC letter and I still don’t have one, it makes me think twice about his intentions, and by the way OMW made it clear that she didn’t
Want me to call her, because I was interfering with her recovery, and she trusts OM
And that OM didn’t love my WW but he loves her, and hi is remorseful and he is working Overtime on his M. and if god wants to unveil things he will.
I told her that I respected her request and that I will not call her anymore.

I guess I’m the only one that knows how devious that guy is.
Well my wife knows to that he is lying because he had told her earlier that he is staying
For the kids, and that he doesn’t love his W.

So he is lying to somebody, either to my wife or to everybody else.
How come my WW can’t see that?
Could the fog be that blinding?

About me I’m hanging in their, still on the emotional ride, mostly down, sometimes
I get uplift, but I still have hope, without hope I have no reason to continue,
Some days my whole body is numb, I can barely walk, the pain in my chest is always their, reminding me that I’m only human.
My wife is talking to me she is being thoughtful, she does know I’m in pain, I don’t know
If she feels it but she knows… we don’t talk about R much or the A, but we talk…

I told her yesterday remember this, friends come and go but your family will never leave
You, I will never leave you.

I believe OM is lying to himself...which is why he is lying to everyone...

Not your concern.

Why is your wife still volunteering at the school?

Are you still listening and repeating? When she talked about how she felt others making her feel blamed and humiliated, did you just repeat?

Sounds like you said you were sorry for her feelings...that she was having them...and why ask if she wants to talk about it when she IS talking about it?

Can you see how twisty this is? And you validated that people were treating her that way rather than affirming you understand she perceives it this way...and you augment her perception by thinking of OM and his motives...DJs galore, Tony. This is getting sucked into fantasy, not staying in respectful reality...she is fully capable of dealing with her feelings, thoughts, perceptions, beliefs and choosing her perspective...please don't get in her way.

Now, look to your grand statement..."I will never leave you" and then at your acknowledgement that without hope, you wouldn't do this. Staying honest with ourselves when we are fervently wishing for a different reality is tough...doable, but tough. Be tough inside and out, Tony. Be really honest and see where your contradictions are coming from...

About 2crazy...I think you see how helpful it is to help someone else...by simply sharing your truth. Seeing your own responses in a post is another way of looking at yourself...it isn't about pulling, pushing or changing another person...it is revealing yourself.

Which is what I'm doing here...and you are. Two-way streets, Tony.

Now, along the lines of contradictions...why did you take the call from the old friend you had some feelings for that your WW doesn't like? And you got good feelings from the call...

If you do yourself what you don't want your wife doing, how can you enforce the boundary of NC?

My intent here is higher honesty...not bashing...working on you will negate the numbness quite a bit...and you're here.

LA

Hi LA

She is not volunteering now it’s summer school, and she signed up the kids for the summer, they go every other week.

I don’t think they can have contact at school because everybody their knows
And everybody is watching them, and they feel sympathy with OM, and treat
My wife like satin, these are her words, and I believe her.

Quote:

“Can you see how twisty this is? And you validated that people were treating her that way rather than affirming you understand she perceives it this way...and you augment her perception by thinking of OM and his motives...DJs galore, Tony. This is getting sucked into fantasy, not staying in respectful reality...she is fully capable of dealing with her feelings, thoughts, perceptions, beliefs and choosing her perspective...please don't get in her way.”

Yes I can see that now, I’m still practicing to be a better and safe listener, it’s the
Fixer in me I always want to fix things, I do believe she can take care of herself,
But I’m afraid she is plunging into a deep depression, I’m worried about her.

Quote:
“Tony. Be really honest and see where your contradictions are coming from...”

My truth is that I don’t want to leave her, but I’m afraid that she might want to leave,
From 2crazy I can see how thick the fog is, and how hard it is to stop contact,
My wife is still deep in the fog I hope she wakes up before it’s too late.

Quote:
“About 2crazy...I think you see how helpful it is to help someone else...by simply sharing your truth. Seeing your own responses in a post is another way of looking at yourself...it isn't about pulling, pushing or changing another person...it is revealing yourself”

Absolutely right I feel good even if I’m not helping her, but I think she does need the insight of a BS, to deal with her addiction, I have hope for her because she is admitting
Her addiction and she is doing something about it, I hope we can help her.

Now about the call from my friend, it was good hearing from her, we where really good friends, before my marriage, I think talking to her took me back in time, when she met my wife and told me how beautiful she was, and how funny she was. And how lucky I am
To have found her.

I know what you are talking about, but seriously I need a good friend now, and I don’t have feelings for her anymore, and she was my best friend for a long time.
But you are right I’m too vulnerable now to have her as a friend.
Now this was not Joe’s wife she is another friend she lives about 10 minutes from me
So I will try not to talk to her anymore.

Joe’s wife is in Lebanon.

We had a good weekend took the kids to a B-DAY party at the park; my wife was extremely pleasant to be with.
sunday she was sad when she came back from church, she wouldn't tell me what was wrong.

This morning I was down again no reason just down, I miss talking to her, I miss her
I really miss her.
I wish she could see my pain, I wish she could see her addiction, like 2crazy did.
I’m hoping for the best, I have IC tonight, I will update.