Hello????

Are you there??????

I have missed you. I hope your absence is for some fun, happy, good reasons, and not about the FOO issues you are facing right now.

Thinking about you!!!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showthreaded.php?Number=3084284

-AmI.

Same here...we love and miss you and hope that everything is going well!

(((((Tons, and tons, and tons of hugs!))))

Yeah, me too!!

(((LA)))

(Hi AmI and Rin! Sorry to barge in on your thread -- I usually chat with LA over on the EN board, and I've been missing her too, so I wanted to chime in! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Hugs,
HTBH

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Barge right in!! No need to apologize at all.
I imagine that LA has a pretty big fan club! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I bet she does have a huge fan club! I think she's just amazing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA, are your ears burning yet?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

she does have a huge fan club i hope everything is ok
for you.

((((((((((LA))))))))))

AHHHHH FOOOOOO...

Hiya...thank you for the thread opportunity, AmI...

Just what I needed most when I needed it most.

Hi there Rin! HTBH! Tony!

I am so grateful you care.

And no, not happy stuff...all FOO. Been working on the letter and feeling awful. I did get a card from my mother yesterday afternoon and I chose to go straight to bed at 5pm instead of reacting by phone or email.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is a good lesson, an ancient one. It all ties in, I think, to infidelity, fears and fantasy.

I want to post the dang letter, but it's too long. I need some heavy cutting. And I think it sounds like a robot, to my own ears.

I'm rather ashamed to post it...my fear is off the charts right now. Where's all that "be brave and true" talk now, huh?

I couldn't figure out where to post the letter...make a thread and not have you guys see it...or risk you seeing it!

Ah FOO! (This time, say it like a curse, not a sneeze, 'k?)

Help me out, please?

LA

LA!!

Not the FOO again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You could start a new thread, or you could just post it here. I'm sure AmI won't mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> She DID call out to you, after all...

Please do share with us. I'm sure you're not the only one with FOO issues -- well, I know you're not, cuz I have 'em too! -- and I think we could all benefit from some practice with the FOO (I'm saying it like a curse, just like you asked!).

We're here for you, LA, in your corner, just like you've been in ours so many times.

Big hugs,
HTBH

Absolutely, please share here.
Want me to change the thread name to something that will fit better?

You told me once:
"Feel your fear, hold it like a quaking 2-year-old, and speak, anyway, 'k?"

We're here for you. In your corner (to quote the great Mighty LA Mouse)!!!

-AmI.

Well, LA, what are you waiting for? your input is needed,

I can't wait, we are behind you.

Tony.

Okay, you wonderful people...I will. I will hold that quaking two-year-old little girl and post anyway.

Disclaimer...this is SOOOO long...can you please get your scissors?

Thank you for being here for me. I love having you in my corner.

Here it is...ack.

Da letter...

"Dear Mom and Dad,

This is a love letter. I cherish knowing both of you, what you share with me; who you are. Your voices strum a chord in me, separate even from your words; the voices I have known for so long, who have spoken to me thousands of times. I cherish your voices.

I have been grateful for each “Hello” when you’ve answered my call. That act means acceptance to me. Your choice to do this means I am worth speaking to—the time and effort from your lives, no matter what words have followed.

My calls represent that same intention in me. To acknowledge you are a part of my life, a part of me. Our connection matters to me. I shared with you how disrespectful I was in assuming what you were thinking or feeling, how it was my own false expectation of this being what families do; that they connect, no matter what. That was my twisted belief and I know the truth is, you’ve connected and disconnected from me by choice, every time, in our lives, as I have with you.

You said I didn't apologize. I did. When I called on Saturday, the day after, I heard you say, “Why don’t you apologize, aren’t you sorry?” and I said I was, that I was sorry for raising my voice, for yelling. Mom, you said it really well--neither one of us felt heard and we couldn't hear each other over our own voices.

My perception isn’t the truth, Mom. It’s my truth. On July 21st, I heard you say things and I assumed what you meant. And I didn’t say, “Ouch. I heard you say…” and find out your intent. When you said you were telling someone that you didn’t even know your own daughters, I heard and believed I had failed you, our relationship. I did not ask, “What does that mean to you?” That choice fueled my permission to raise my voice to you later in the conversation. I am sorry I chose to do that.

You provided a great insight for me, Mom, when you said you don’t even know your daughters and I automatically saw that as rejection…instead of seeing it as your choice to not know us. Your choices matter as much as mine. Difficult for me to understand, child to parent; nonetheless true. You have as much power in knowing as I do in being known.

Later, I reacted in the same way when you said you didn’t understand why I was so unforgiving. You were telling me directly what I was, and that’s disrespectful. I know you can see me as unforgiving--does not mean I am. I owned what I did in the past and didn't do it again. Over and over, I have done that. I didn't repeat my offense. I didn't do it because that's not who I am. When I said I was sorry for yelling, I would not allow myself to do it again.

I believe I am living forgiveness, Mother. I fear, and I act in spite of it. I fear you shutting me out, and I call, write and visit, anyway; knowing you have this history, this choice of behavior. I open to you my thoughts, feelings, beliefs and experiences. I shared myself with you. I have thrived and believe I survived due to your support these last two years: your sharing--your choice to talk to me. And my part was taking that risk.

I believe you know I have a huge fear of abandonment; believing I need to be withdrawn from, a danger to you. Feels like the old days, Mom. Feels like punishment...being grounded from you. There wasn’t a choir concert, dance or event big enough to equate to how much of a loss I feel in having you taken away from me, each time: It feels devastating to me.

I am grateful for our confrontation because I believe I now have your truth as to why I was not allowed to come to Christmas and for your surgery. I don't understand when you taught me as a little girl about lying, why you would both choose to deceive me. You didn't state the truth, only your shaded version of why you cancelled what would have been my first Christmas with you in 22 years. "We didn't want a gathering" when it was everyone there but me. And you said I shouldn't feel rejected. These are painful statements because of the lie, not the truth.

Is it true at Christmas that you would've been okay with me there, but not DH? I wish you would have respected me enough to tell me that and allowed me my choice in the matter...to come by myself or not come at all. This way was deceptive. I had four months of killer pain for that. I did that to myself...because it brought up the constant question I’ve had since childhood, “What had I done that was so bad to be excluded like that from my family?”

Thank you for the truth about coming to help out during your surgery and recovery. Telling me that you thought I would be too afraid to leave DH to stay with you; doing what I'd promised, asked for, claimed and stated. I'm not afraid to leave my husband. He's an adult. I have no control over other human beings. I do not fear what he will do even a tenth as much as what you both will choose to do.

My choice to not visit you this year comes from following my belief that when people transgress, they confess and vow to not do it again. That’s forgiveness to me. That’s what you’ve required of me. You may have done this and I did not hear it. There are two halves to trust, I believe…the part you earn and the part you choose to give. I am afraid of giving my half of the trust. I need it earned back through honesty, openness and being mutually committed to working through and on our relationship.

Mom, you said you never disowned me. The first time, Dad used those words. The other times, what I call disowning is not talking. Silent treatment. I can accept your choice to not speak to me because that is your choice. What is difficult is not knowing for how long, if anything will be addressed or if it will be ignored…and I confuse this with being punished and ignored. It’s not the same.
I know my voice, my presence in your life is important to you, too. I know this because you have said it was. That may have changed. I don’t know. I know this is a two-way street.

It's been exactly 23 years since you sat in my apartment in ******, shutting me out of your lives unless I gave DS up for adoption...August 13th. In the 23 years since, I've lost 8 years total to silence. Of not knowing for how long this time...or the next. I've waited the last eight years in fear of you doing this again. I knew my risk when I asked for your forgiveness, owned that I was wrong in talking to (my sister's) husband. I owned I was wrong in not sending you a Christmas card in 1990, and that I was wrong to not have given up DS for adoption.

My decision to not come to visit was my effort to acknowledge and respect your choices and that I have my own. This is my perspective instead of seeing myself as being done to, having no choice. To continue to commit to seeing you and risk it being denied is beyond what I can bear right now. I had hoped maybe next year I would have grown enough to do that.

I realize the consequences...that I may not see either of you again in my lifetime. My very deep, true loss. I wanted you to know that I realize how that decision cost me and believe it may cost you. I only knew that for now, I could not do that. Christmas and April were too fresh inside me. I've been working hard on seeing where I am really rejected, and where I feel it even when I am not. I've learned that with your parents, this may be impossible.

I'm filled up with sorrow...like thick, wet air inside my body, pushing outward...I have a humid heart. I'm not trying to stop it or encourage it. This time, I want to know all of it. My part and what really isn't my part. I truly am finished with being so powerful that I am the cause or control of our relationship. I am not going to believe in blame, nor take it. I didn't do this. I respect this as your choice. I am sharing what I feel with you, not blaming you.

My compromise was to call, be present, once a week; share what I could of myself, and my family, with you both. Not in person, just the next best thing.

In your card, Mom, you say I have a lot of resentment for your choices. I’ve been working on resentment the last two years…and you’re right. I have not seen where what I choose, knowing I will resent, I do, anyway, in our relationship. I know it is my poison. I believe it was behind our yelling at each other. I know this is for me to work through and let go, as I did with DH. And to not choose to make new resentments.

I know now that God permits this, with love. I do not honor either of you by building resentment with every hit I feel. I do not honor myself when I choose to believe your lies. I have turned my relationship with you over to God and asked for his guidance. I do not believe in shutting you out to protect myself; I believe in not putting myself in harm's way.

To do this, I need to see truth, not my twisted perceptions. I believe I dodge truth, as well. Shade it out of fear of being hurtful. Not being truthful hurts more.

The night when (my sister) was there, and you all called, wanting to get on extensions...what I heard you say was "We need to forgive and move on." What was that in regards to? Whose forgiveness and for what? That night, Dad, you asked me if I was going to visit sometime and I said "maybe, I don't know." I wasn't clear, either, at the time.

I would like to hear and tell truth. I would like to know if you’ve done this with others in your lives, Mom and Dad…who you have stopped speaking to and why. I feel alone in this, as if I’m the one defective person you know. And yes, I feel defective and know I am not. I am God’s human. Knowing is one thing--really believing is what I’m working on.

I do not want to have a fear-based relationship. What I shared with you these last few years, Mom, was my deepest fears and feelings; my most ugly self, and I felt accepted and loved anyway. To me, that was evidence there wouldn’t be another time of disownment. That was my assumption and I was wrong. And if your truth is that you don’t want to know details, I respect that. I can share my thoughts, feelings and beliefs without details.

I believe in you both. I know we are all created capable and whole humans, able to have conflict and resolution. I’ve learned that 90% of conflicts in relationships are to be understood, not solved. I believe we can come to that understanding through effort, being open and honest, and really accept who we are to each other.

I know I am half of the relationship with you, Dad, and half of my relationship with Mom. I promise to be my half respectfully and to come from love, not fear. I know how petty I am inside, not wanting to call and talk to Dad to share my life, my family, without Mom doing the same. I will overcome that when I understand the difference between you both choosing to be united as parents and actually being separate adults. I don’t understand it right now.

Mom, I heard you say, “You have hurt me so much. Hurt me to the bone.” I yelled because I can’t take that blame, being that cause for hurting you by my choices in life, about my life. I cannot do that anymore. Your pain is your own—as is your resentment, anger, fear and love. I will no longer believe I have been or am harmful to you. I choose to believe you own your own emotions, choose your life. My words here are written from pure intent…to be respectful, come from love and honesty. You may feel great pain—I am not doing that. You may believe I do not love you, or love you enough, or in the right way—I honor your choice to believe what you believe. The act of writing my intent, honing it, with great consideration, is my proof. My attempts to connect when we are disconnected is proof of my choice to love you. My influence on you and your life is limited by what you allow.

Please tell me if in your statement you were blaming me for your pain. I took it that way. My disrespectful judgment. I would like to know your truth instead. And I would like to know if in the future you will choose do this again, to disconnect.

I know that there are choices I make you do not approve of—and I have taken that disapproval personally, that you don’t approve of me. I strive to separate those because one does not mean the other. That’s how God loves…the sinner, not the sins. He does not force us to stop sinning…he disapproves and still loves, stays connected. He does not punish to teach us…we can feel punished. Our choice. Our power. God’s design. He has total respect for our choice, even choosing to come to him, choosing him. I did. And I choose to love you and Dad.

This is my love letter.

P.S. I got your third card in the mail where you said “You need to take responsibility for your actions now and the past.” I believe I’ve addressed that here, as well as the apology you did not hear me give. I heard you say you were sorry for yelling, also. That’s the only apology or responsibility for actions now and in the past I have heard from either you or Dad. I remember in 2003 on the back porch, you asked if I’d forgiven you and I said, yes, of course…you were only doing what you had to do. I betrayed myself then. I’m not doing that now. That adds to my pain, when I do that, and I have falsely believed that added pain came from your choices, when it came from me, taking blame, falsely believing then I could control being excluded by not making you exclude me. I craved your approval, no more disownment. It came from my fear. This request comes from my love."

Okay, y'all...I need your help. I think I'm lying in parts...I do! Please hold me to what I've stated are my beliefs...because they truly are...but my 9-year-old girl inside doesn't want to be truthful, I think. I think I repeat a lot and also, my biggest fear is that I HAVE done all this to myself...that I am the bad kid...somewhere I know that's not possible...about giving up my oldest, they said they always told me, all the time, that if I got pregnant out of wedlock they would do this...boundary enforcement, I think...and I honestly cannot recall them ever saying that (why I doubt myself so much)...though I would have kept my son anyway...I know I would have.

Ack.

See how lost I am? This was the first time I've ever raised my voice to my mother...and I do feel guilt for that...and what I'm lying by omission about, is that I do feel good about it...not for being reactive, but for not sucking it all up, agreeing with her statements...she doesn't feel loved unless she's agreed with...that's how she feels support, I believe. Hasn't left me any room, other than silence, to disagree respectfully.

And please tell me if you think I'm wrong...they aren't in great health, they are over 35 years older than me...I want desperately to break this pattern...am I seeing what isn't there? She won't talk on the phone, but she has sent three cards...could I be doing this to myself?

Give it to me straight...I trust you all very much...anyone who replies...know I will listen...(Just Learning, if you're up for it)...

LA

Oh, wow, I feel SOOOO unqualified here ...
I'm a pretty well-practiced CA, so keep that in mind as you read ... also, I think you did a fabulous job with this, you are such a gifted writer. So most of my edits are just scissors. There are probably people much better at this than me who will do a better job with the content pieces.





"Dear Mom and Dad,

This is a love letter. I cherish knowing both of you, what you share with me; who you are. Your voices strum a chord in me, separate even from your words; the voices I have known for so long, who have spoken to me thousands of times. I cherish your voices."

What a beautiful opening. I love this part and wouldn't change a word. You're a very gifted writer.

"I have been grateful for each “Hello” when you’ve answered my call. That act means acceptance to me. Your choice to do this means I am worth speaking to—the time and effort from your lives, no matter what words have followed.

My calls represent that same intention in me. To acknowledge you are a part of my life, a part of me. Our connection matters to me."

I really like this part, too. I think I'd end this paragraph right here and cut out all of the following part -- you already shared it, trust that they heard it:

"I shared with you how disrespectful I was in assuming what you were thinking or feeling, how it was my own false expectation of this being what families do; that they connect, no matter what. That was my twisted belief and I know the truth is, you’ve connected and disconnected from me by choice, every time, in our lives, as I have with you.

You said I didn't apologize. I did."


Then keep this:

"When I called on Saturday, the day after, I heard you say, “Why don’t you apologize, aren’t you sorry?” and I said I was, that I was sorry for raising my voice, for yelling. Mom, you said it really well--neither one of us felt heard and we couldn't hear each other over our own voices."

This next paragraph repeats a little. I'd cut out the first part and just keep this part, and the following paragraph:

"When you said you were telling someone that you didn’t even know your own daughters, I heard and believed I had failed you, our relationship. I did not ask, “What does that mean to you?” That choice fueled my permission to raise my voice to you later in the conversation. I am sorry I chose to do that.

You provided a great insight for me, Mom, when you said you don’t even know your daughters and I automatically saw that as rejection…instead of seeing it as your choice to not know us. Your choices matter as much as mine. Difficult for me to understand, child to parent; nonetheless true. You have as much power in knowing as I do in being known."


Some cutting and pasting together of the next two paragraphs, which are also a little repetitive. Als, you go from calling her "mom" to "mother" ... whenever I was a kid and wanted to cop an attitude with my mom, I'd call her mother. For me, it was sort of a subtle way to be disrespectful that also couldn't get me in trouble. So my reaction when I read that here was a big gasp -- but that's because of my past and perception. Do you usually call her "mother'?

"Later, I reacted in the same way when you said you didn’t understand why I was so unforgiving. You were telling me directly what I was, and that’s disrespectful. I know you can see me as unforgiving--does not mean I am. I believe I am living forgiveness, Mother. I fear you shutting me out, and I call, write and visit, anyway; knowing you have this history, this choice of behavior. I open to you my thoughts, feelings, beliefs and experiences. I shared myself with you. I have thrived and believe I survived due to your support these last two years: your sharing--your choice to talk to me. And my part was taking that risk."



And now I have to take a break and go tuck kids in. I will be back later tonight.

-AmI.

(((LA)))

Thank you so much for sharing with us! So brave to post your letter.

I admire you so much for wanting to clear the air with your parents, to be honest and open and respectful with them. You are inspiring me to do the same … one day! LOL.

I hear that you are scared that you are the bad kid, that this IS your fault, and I understand! This is such a hard hard belief to let go of, for me anyway.

(((LA)))

I agree wholeheartedly with AmI; I love the way you write and I think your letter is beautiful.

I think she has a good point, too, about how you switch between mom and mother. Does one of those names have a different meaning to you?

So here's my disclaimer: I used to be a copy editor, and I love to edit, so I sort of took the liberty of editing your entire letter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I had a few specific comments to make [those are indicated within ()], but mostly I just wanted to see if I could get it to flow a little easier. See what you think -- I won't be offended if you like your version better!

Hugs, HTBH

This is the whole letter, as I have edited it:


“Dear Mom and Dad,

This is a love letter. I cherish knowing both of you, what you share with me, who you are. Your voices strum a chord in me, separate even from your words; the voices I have known for so long, who have spoken to me thousands of times. I cherish your voices.

I have been grateful for each “Hello” when you’ve answered my call. To me, that act means acceptance. Your choice to do this means I am worth speaking to and worth taking time and effort from your lives.

My calls represent that same intention in me: To acknowledge you are a part of my life, a part of me. Our connection matters to me. I know my voice, my presence in your life is important to you, too, because you have said it was.

I believe you know I have a huge fear of abandonment, of believing I need to be withdrawn from, that I am a danger to you. Feels like the old days, Mom. Feels like punishment...being grounded from you. It feels devastating to me.

My perception isn’t the truth, Mom. It’s my truth.

On July 21st, I heard you say things and I assumed what you meant. When you said you were telling someone that you didn’t even know your own daughters, I heard and believed I had failed you, our relationship. I did not ask, “What does that mean to you?” That choice, that belief, became my permission to raise my voice to you later in the conversation. I am sorry I chose to do that.

You provided a great insight for me, Mom, when you said you don’t even know your daughters and I automatically saw that as rejection…instead of seeing it as your choice to not know us. Your choices matter as much as mine. Difficult for me to understand, as your child; nonetheless true. You have as much power to know me as I do to be known.

Mom, I heard you say, “You have hurt me so much. Hurt me to the bone.” I yelled because I can’t take that blame, being the cause for your pain with my choices in life. I cannot do that anymore. Your pain is your own—as is your resentment, anger, fear and love. I will no longer believe I have been or am harmful to you. I choose to believe you own your own emotions, choose your life.

Please tell me if in your statement you were blaming me for your pain. I took it that way. My disrespectful judgment. I would like to know your truth instead.

And I would like to know if in the future you will choose to disconnect from me again (LA, this seems like the sort of question she probably can’t answer..I think this is your fear talking, wanting a guarantee that this won’t happen again. I would delete this sentence. HTBH).

I am grateful for our confrontation because I believe I now have your truth as to why I was not invited to come to Christmas and for your surgery. I don't understand why you would both choose to deceive me. You didn't state your truth, but only a shaded version of why you cancelled what would have been my first Christmas with you in 22 years. "We didn't want a gathering" when everyone was there but me. And then you said I shouldn't feel rejected.

I had four months of killer pain for that, because I kept asking myself the constant question I’ve had since childhood, “What did I do that was so bad to be excluded like that from my family?”

I feel defective and know I am not. I am God’s human. Knowing is one thing--really believing is what I’m working on.

Is it true at Christmas that you would've been okay with me there, but not DH? I wish you would have respected me enough to tell me that so that I could make my choice...to come by myself or not come at all.

My choice to not visit you this year comes from following my belief that, when people transgress, they confess and vow to not do it again. That’s forgiveness to me. There are two halves to trust, I believe: the part you earn and the part you choose to give. I am afraid of giving my half of the trust. I need it earned back through honesty, openness and being mutually committed to working through and on our relationship.

When you said you didn’t understand why I was so unforgiving, you were telling me directly what I was, and that’s disrespectful. I know you can see me as unforgiving—it does not mean I am.

I believe I am living forgiveness, Mother. I fear, and I act in spite of it. I fear you shutting me out, and I call, write and visit, anyway, knowing you have this history. I open to you my thoughts, feelings, beliefs and experiences. I shared myself with you. I have thrived and believe I survived due to your support these last two years.

Mom, you said you never disowned me. The first time, Dad used those words. The other times, I consider your not speaking to me to be disowning me – the silent treatment. I can accept your choice to not speak to me because that is your choice. What is difficult is not knowing for how long the silence will continue, and this feels to me like being punished and ignored.

It's been exactly 23 years since you sat in my apartment in ******, shutting me out of your lives unless I gave DS up for adoption...August 13th. In the 23 years since, I've lost 8 years total to silence. Of not knowing for how long this time...or the next. I've waited the last eight years in fear of you doing this again. I knew my risk when I asked for your forgiveness, owned that I was wrong in talking to (my sister's) husband. I owned I was wrong in not sending you a Christmas card in 1990, and that I was wrong to not have given up DS for adoption. (LA, I don’t see your truth in saying that you were wrong not to have given up your son. They may think so, but I don’t think YOU think so, and I would delete that part, and really, I would delete or seriously edit the whole thing, because I don’t believe you were wrong for doing those things, and I don’t think you do, either. You can take responsibility without taking blame/judgment/wrongness, right? Just my 2 cents here… HTBH)

I'm filled up with sorrow...like thick, wet air inside my body, pushing outward...I have a humid heart. I'm not trying to stop it. This time, I want to know all of it. My part and what really isn't my part. I am finished with being so powerful that I am the cause or control of our relationship. I am not going to believe in blame, nor take it. I am sharing what I feel with you, not blaming you.

My decision to not come to visit was my effort to acknowledge and respect your choices and that I have my own. This is my perspective, instead of seeing myself as being done to, having no choice. To continue to commit to seeing you and risk it being denied is beyond what I can bear right now.

My compromise was to call, be present, once a week; share what I could of myself, and my family, with you both. Not in person, just the next best thing.

I realize the consequences...that I may not see either of you again in my lifetime. My very deep, true loss. I realize how that decision cost me and it may cost you. I only know that for now, I could not commit to visiting this year. Christmas and April were too fresh inside me. I've been working hard on seeing where I am really rejected, and where I feel it even when I am not. I've learned that with your parents, this may be impossible.

In your card, Mom, you say I have a lot of resentment for your choices. I’ve been working on resentment the last two years…and you’re right. I now realize that I have made choices, knowing I will resent you for them, and yet made them anyway. I know it is my poison. I know this is for me to work through and let go, as I did with DH. And to not choose to make new resentments.

I know now that God permits this. I do not honor either of you by building resentment with every hit I feel. I have turned my relationship with you over to God and asked for his guidance.

I do not believe in shutting you out to protect myself; I believe in not putting myself in harm's way. To do this, I need to see truth, not my twisted perceptions. I believe I dodge truth, as well, out of fear of being hurtful. Not being truthful hurts more.

I would like to hear and tell truth. I would like to know if you’ve done this with others in your lives, Mom and Dad…who you have stopped speaking to and why. I feel alone in this, as if I’m the one defective person you know.(LA, I don’t see truth here, either, just pain and fear. What if they tell you that you ARE the only one? Better I think to delete this entire paragraph, or edit big time. HTBH)

I do not want to have a fear-based relationship. What I shared with you these last few years, Mom, was my deepest fears and feelings, my most ugly self, and I felt accepted and loved anyway. To me, that was evidence there wouldn’t be another time of disownment. That was my assumption and I was wrong for making it. If your truth is that you don’t want to know details, I respect that. I can share my thoughts, feelings and beliefs without details.

I know I am half of the relationship with you, Dad, and half of my relationship with Mom. I promise to be my half respectfully and to come from love, not fear.

I know how petty I am inside, not wanting to call and talk to Dad to share my life, my family, without Mom doing the same. I will overcome that when I understand the difference between you both choosing to be united as parents and actually being separate adults. I don’t understand it right now. (LA, these last 2 sentences confuse me…sounds like your scared 9 year old talking, maybe? I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say or what you are owning here. I would delete this whole paragraph. HTBH)

My words here are written from pure intent…to be respectful, come from love and honesty. My attempts to connect when we are disconnected is proof of my choice to love you.

I know that there are choices I make you do not approve of—and I have taken that disapproval personally and believed that you don’t approve of me. I strive to separate those because one does not mean the other. That’s how God loves…the sinner, not the sins. He does not force us to stop sinning…he disapproves and yet still loves, stays connected. He has total respect for our choice, even choosing to come to him, choosing him. I did. And I choose to love you and Dad.

This is my love letter."

One thing I meant to ask earlier ... you said your mom likes to write cards. Does she read long letters? Will she be likely to "hear you out" or will she lose interest based on the the lengthiness?

ok, back to my scisoring .... I'm trying not to word-smith much, I have such a tendency to try to make other people sound like me... but I did cut a lot of things down and moved some stuff around. Some things seemed to make more sense to me when they were grouped together, and it cut down on some of the repetition.

So, picking up where I left off earlier .... shortened and brought up some concepts from the paragraphs below:

"Mom, I have a huge fear of abandonment. Believing I need to be withdrawn from, or am a danger to you feels like punishment. The loss I feel in having you taken away from me is devastating to me. The silent treatment feels like being disowned, and it's difficult not knowing for how long, if anything will be addressed or if it will be ignored…and I confuse this with being punished and ignored.
In the last 23 years, I've lost 8 years total to silence. And I've waited the last eight years in fear of you choosing not to speak to me again.

My decision to not come to visit was my effort to acknowledge and respect your choices and that I have my own. To continue to commit to seeing you and risk it being denied is beyond what I can bear right now.

My compromise was to call, be present, once a week; share what I could of myself, and my family, with you both. Not in person, just the next best thing.

I realize the consequences...that I may not see either of you again in my lifetime. My very deep, true loss. I wanted you to know that I realize how that decision cost me and may cost you. I'm filled up with sorrow...like thick, wet air inside my body, pushing outward...I have a humid heart."


Now it may be the CA in me, but a lot of the rest of this really seems to dig up very, very old issues. That you have already talked about with her, already shared your truth. Parts of it almost feel like a laundry list of all the things you hold against her, and like you're holding them there until she asks for forgiveness. Parts feel a little preachy. That's just my perception, and please don't take it as a bash. I say preach on when you're writing to me, and I would take a laundry list of things I need to work on from you any day. But for your mom ... I'd take quite a bit of that out.

Have you ever addressed any of this with her before? Can you trust that she's heard it and move on, or do you need a specific apology from her on each issue? Can you forgive without that apology if she decides never to give it?

I'd suggest really condensing a lot of the next piece, not rehashing all of the stories -- they know what they are. I'd make it is minimal as possible, and only include the pieces that you really feel like you need her to address with you, need her truth about, or that she's specifically addressed to you.

Oh, and I don't think that you should "own" that it was wrong to not give your DS up for adoption. Them not liking your choice does not make it wrong.

"I am grateful for our confrontation because I believe I finally heard your truth about why I was not allowed to come to Christmas and for your surgery. You said I shouldn't feel rejected, but I did. I wish you would have respected me enough to tell me the truth about how you felt and allow me my choice in the matter. Having the oportunity to choose for myself based on the truth would have been much less painful that wondering “What had I done that was so bad to be excluded like that from my family?”.

In your card, Mom, you say I have a lot of resentment for your choices. I’ve been working on resentment the last two years…and you’re right. I know it is my poison, I believe it was behind our yelling at each other. I know this is for me to work through and let go, and to choose not to make new resentments. I'm working on that and believe God will help me do this, with love.

To do this, I need to see truth, not my twisted perceptions. I believe I dodge truth, as well. Shade it out of fear of being hurtful. Not being truthful hurts more.

I do not want to have a fear-based relationship. What I shared with you these last few years, Mom, was my deepest fears and feelings; my most ugly self, and I felt accepted and loved anyway.

I know that there are choices I make you do not approve of—and I have taken that disapproval personally, that you don’t approve of me. I strive to separate those because one does not mean the other. That’s how God loves…the sinner, not the sins. He does not force us to stop sinning…he disapproves and still loves, stays connected. He does not punish to teach us…we can feel punished. Our choice. Our power. God’s design. He has total respect for our choice, even choosing to come to him, choosing him. I did. And I choose to love you and Dad.

This is my love letter."


Is any of this at all on the right track? I'm starting to think it might be too general. It sounds like you and your mom are both bringing up very specific incidents ... maybe instead of addressing them globally (which is the picture I had when taking my pass at revisions), you both would do better with that specific, laundry list style ... one greivance = one apology = one forgiveness?

Wow, LA, I'm feeling really not good at this right now.... let me keep thinking and try again.

FWIW, I think you are wonderful and amazing and a blessing to my life, and the lives of lots of other people around here. I'm sorry that your parents don't always seem to feel that same way. I think you're fantastic.

-AmI.

Ooooh, I like HTBH's version, too. It keeps all the details in that I think I was trying to shorten up on...

Thank you, AmI!

I knew I was preachy, long-winded and repetitive. Normally, I can slice and dice...this time, not. It was her saying, after all these years, she never disowned me...guess I'm still reeling from that one. Hence, the laundry list. Me, justifying myself...like a little hint that I am still stealing blame...can blame be a drug?

The brevity helps very much. I've been working on this for over a week, so I will continue to think about what you cut out as an indication of stuff I need to set within myself, not them.

And I think you're right about me wanting them to apologize for each grievance (mine to grieve, right?), for each forgiveness. That's my pipe dream, I think. That's from me being snivelling all these years--want to over compensate, maybe. I dunno.

I'm still shocked at myself for not understanding that they lied, and that I believed them.

And I love the way you picked up on my subtle Mom to Mother stuff...it occurred to me and I let it slide...thank you very much for not letting it slide!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mostly, I use them interchangeably, but I secretly believe she prefers Mom.


HTBH,

Thank you for your edits! I really like what you cut out and how you linked my sentences when I went choppy. You know how when you sob, you get that stammering, cut-off to your words...felt like that when I wrote. Like the fear was blunting. Thank you for smoothing because that's what is in my mind and stubbornly wouldn't come out my fingers.

I do want to know if she believes her choice to disconnect for months or years is something she will permit herself to do again; maybe asking to know for a time period, instead? I honestly don't know. I have a boundary here, in some way, that I need to better define. Maybe I'm wanting to state that boundary, not ask her what hers is, huh?

And I do want to know if I'm the only one...that would be a relief...I believe they've cut so many out of their lives, and knowing if I'm DJing, misremembering or right matters. I see your point...I'd rather have their truth, though...

About what I've already done...I do believe I should have given up my son...I'm terrifically happy I didn't, now...and it is moot because I can't go back...I already owned all that to them...just feels like they forgot it, or wiped it away...each time...by saying I don't take responsibility. I'm letting their opinion be my yard stick again. FOO sucks.

LOL

I am reacting to what she said and taking it to mean she doesn't see the past my way--instead of accepting she doesn't. I think I need to accept they have rewritten history, or I have, huh?

The part I really confused you with was lack of info...my parents made a pact when they married (when I was 9) to always back up the other person's statements, to parent as one, no matter what was said, or decided...so when I asked my Dad if he'd wanted me there for Christmas, I was told the same thing Mom had said, about not wanting a gathering...and he wouldn't say what he thought. They don't do that. They are one, they say. So, that's my confused 44-year-old.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know how to have a relationship with a unit, I guess.

I may end up deleting all of those paragraphs, HTBH. I need to think more on my goal, which I didn't have, other than to speak my truth and not back down.

AmI, you think you're a CA'er? LOL...I think it takes one to know one.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am very blessed to know you both. Today, I'm going to hold that knowledge and then see what I can truly let go.

LA

LA,
Glad to see you, I have missed you as well.

I think you are doing a great thing here, my parents are both dead. Some days I wish I could talk to them or at least have had the courage to talk to them when they were alive.

I think blame can be a drug, same as any feeling or emotion. In moderation one can handle it and not be harmed by it very much, but in massive doses it can be very destructive.

I see something here, about the parents lying and your not catching it. I beleive that as children we grow up blindly loving our parents (would explain abused children who cry and are destroyed whne the abuse parent(s) are taken to jail) and as we are raised by them and grow older we know no different so we know nothing better. Does this make sense? It did in my head, but looks different in this post. I hope you get my meaning, I'm still trying. Anyway, for this we must forgive as our parents and even siblings didn't know the dynamics of relationships and parenting that we know today. Some things then were and still are the right thing and some was not. So, I guess you could say ignorance of things not discovered? Hopefully not just plain mean or ugly.

It would be nice if they apologized for each transgression, but as you said a pipe dream. Yet in some way maybe they believe that they did nothing wrong, justified in their own way, maybe they are over compensating. Who know, but this may be your riddle for the ages, a challenge, a riddle or puzzle for you to sove with them???

Good Luck LA! I know you will do fine with this, you will solve it to your satisfaction.

Thank you for all your help and wisdom. I will update later when your not as busy.

LA, thank you for sharing you O&H, with us. I love your letter, and all of the edits, as well, like Ami said, but I don't know your audience. Here on the board, it's very interactive, we respond to one another point by point. Do you have this type of communication with your parents, as well? It sounds like you do, but I don't want to assume.

Is it justifying? Or sharing your O&H? It sounded like O&H to me.

I understand where you want to know your mom's intent. I understand that she may not commit to not doing this again, and at her age, perhaps that would not be something that she will choose to undertake, like learning a foreign language. Like we all were when we first got to the boards, full of the belief that this is who we are, can't everyone just accept us as we are? Why do they get all out of whack over our small shortcomings? The belief that as your mom said, we've all done stuff wrong, why can't we forgive and forget? You know what a huge committment it is to go from that perspective to the one you share now. If she chooses not to make that commitment, that is a reflcetion on her, not on whether you are lovable.

The lesson for me is, that you give your parents so much dignity and respect, to believe they are full and complete people, owning their own behavior. My MiL I have seen as a shadow of a person, and I have believed her when she said she denied ownership of her behavior, her choices, and came to expect very little of her. This is truly a gift you have given to me, thank you, for freeing me from this disrespect.

LA, to me, that is what is missing in the letter. That this is how much you honor them, to give them the dignity to choose NOT to have a relationship they are not willing to choose yet. To live life on life's terms.

Is there another person in their lives who could let you know if you are the only one that they disconnect from? Are there times in your childhood even when you saw this happen?

Good Morning! Hello everyone!

Well, I think that I've got here a little late and everyone has offered great opinions regarding your letter and the dynamics.

I am here to be here for you. There are some great questions and I know that you will succeed, just as you do every day. There something about unconditional love...your chose to be "LovingAnyway" that confuses us all from time to time in our lives...I think it's a shame that some people chose to love conditional...as I chose that path for myself until WH taught me that post-D-day.

Strange I learned that lesson being a BS from my WH...I don't think he intend to teach my that lesson...but that's what I learned...my FOO...in my mind...loved conditional. so that's what I was taught...

I have become stronger from learning that lesson...and you have chosen to do the same...WOW! How amazing is that?

I know now that love is a choice...I didn't before!

All these amazing people with great insights and perspectives...I'm blessing to know all of you!

LA-I look forward to each day that I get to know you...you said once that "I" inspired you...but YOU inspire me too with your cape and tiny ears! LOL

LA...
I'm a silent member of your fan club. I've soaked up a lot of the wisdom you've shared w/ Rinderella.

I think your letter is honest and heartfelt and agree w/ the edits and comments. I wanted to send my good wishes and positive vibes along.

I guess I'm not a silent member anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Eagle...for saying hello and your input.

What I got from your reminder is that our inner children have that image of parents from all the years...blended and mixed...with blind faith they don't do what they told us not to...and yes, I can feel that's my inner kid having a hard time with their lies, not my adult. I have acclimated myself (that's what it felt like) several times knowing my parents are humans...my equals...with all their own choices...same ones I make...about their perspective, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions...as they are, not as I needed them to be.

I get that perspective and then I lose it.

LOL

Thanks for helping me re-orient myself back to their choice to not disclose, not spinning around in the wishful child aspect of them lying...they do. They're human. And I think I had to learn, yet again, that I am not powerful enough to make someone, anyone, tell me their truth...that's why it's a gift...intimacy is...and then I can sit in that belief for awhile and NOT feel like something essential is being taken away...it was a gift in the first place.

So, Eagle...how close are you to taking out those last two sentences in your sigline?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for sticking with me, Eagle. Now you know how much that really means to me...

LA

I like AmI's edits, too, and I think all of the points she brought up are good ones! If your mom is not a big reader, maybe you can finish and polish this nice long version of the letter, and then send her a card with a short and sweet summary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AmI, I also like the name change for the thread! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm proud to be part of LA's fan club! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA,

How are you feeling this morning?

I do understand how fear and pain can make things choppy, absolutely. It can be hard to get things organized when you're trying so hard just to get them OUT. I think you did a great job with it, truly!

I know you want to know if she's going to disconnect from you again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I understand. I also don't think she knows the answer to that, and it does seem confrontational to demand an answer from her. I like better your suggestion to state your boundary gently, and let her do what she will with it. (Your deciding not to visit this year is the beginning of that boundary, I think.) I think once you have defined that boundary better, you'll be able to state it without needing an answer from her.

Why do you want to know if you're the only one? I would really look hard at this. It sounds to me like you are looking at the other people who are missing from their life, and thinking that your parents cut them out, as well, and wanting to know if that truly was your parents' intent.

Why? So that you can tell yourself this is not about you, it's about them?

LA, it's NOT about you! It IS about them! Even if you are the only person in their lives that they choose not to speak to -- it's still NOT about you!

Again, I think that once you are really comfortable with this belief (and I know that's a tall order!), you will have less need for that answer.

I am really having a hard time believing that you think you should have given up your son. LOL. It may have been a "smarter" choice, or a more realistic one, given the circumstances at the time, but I think that you did the right thing by your son and there is NO WAY I would ever ever ever call that wrong. EVER. EVER EVER EVER.

OK, sorry, jumping back off the soap box. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It sounds to me like you are trying to prove to them that you are owning your old stuff, when you have already owned it, already apologized, already committed not to doing it again. (And, seriously, what is there to own about not sending a Christmas card? Did you not send it out of anger? Were they the only ones you didn't send a card to that year? If so, then, yeah, your intent was hurtful, and you need to own it. But if you were just too busy/sad/stressed to send cards out that year, how were you WRONG?)

Oops, there's that soap box again.

I'm just feeling protective of you because I'm seeing you trying to so hard to prove yourself, when you know that you owned your stuff, you took responsibility, you forgave -- and you also know that there is nothing you can do to make them believe any of it.

(If I'm seeing something that's not there, please do let me know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)



I think you need to accept that your history is different from theirs, even if you're both talking about the same event. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I believe history is like truth -- we each have our own.



Ahhh, I get it now! You don't want to talk to Dad, either, because you see MomAndDad as one unit. I understand this completely. I see my parents as MomAndDad, too, and MomAndDad looks suspiciously like just Mom. I'm working on talking to my dad by himself, getting to know him as him, and it's hard. ALL my memories of my parents, especially all the angry painful times in high school, are of this parental unit that happens to have my mom's voice -- I feel like my dad's not really even in there at all.

OK, enough about me! Just wanted to let you know I understand what you are saying. So that I can point out that, if your dad is willing to talk with you on the phone, then he's making different choices than your mom is, and he IS a separate person, not just part of the parental unit, and there you go, I've solved your problem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I can see how it would be hard to know him if he won't tell you his own truths (just like with my dad, I think) BUT he is showing you in small ways, like talking on the phone, that he DOES have his own truth and his own choice and he's willing to share them with you.

One thing that I think is really hard for people like us who are extremely verbal, who look for all the careful shadings of a word, of a phrase, of a letter, so that its meaning exactly matches our intent -- well, sometimes we have trouble reading the meaning in actions. I'm not asking you to DJ and guess what's in his head based on his behavior. I'm just asking you to see that he IS talking to you on the phone, even while Mom is not, and that is a choice, his own choice, to connect with you.

(((LA)))

I'm so blessed to know you, LA, truly truly.

I hope this won't embarrass you too much to say it, but I've come to think of you as sort of a virtual mother, saying and doing and modeling all the things I wish my own mom had. Thank you for sharing all of this with us, as it is such a huge inspiration for me when I think about my own FOO.

FOO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hugs,
HTBH

(((LA)))

I think you've got a great start on the letter, and gotten a lot of good feedback on it as well.

One thing I've learned on these forums is that there's little point to beating yourself up over the past (even though we all do it). As others have said, if you've already acknowledged stuff from the past, and owned what is yours to own, there's little need to bring it up again.

Your parents are smart enough to realize that you've already owned up to your past (even if they haven't admitted it to themselves, or have forgotten it). I'd focus on the current issue - maybe use things from the past as an example or a frame of reference, but don't dwell on them.

As you've told me and others so many times, stay true to your code, and operate from that. Just as you can't control your H's actions, you can't control your parents actions. You've stated your position, you've acknowledged your fears, and you've owned what is yours to own. Good job.

On Rin's other thread, you had asked me if I wanted to do my own "retro" letter. I did, several months ago, though it was only to my mom (I never had a relationship break with my dad), and it was much simpler than yours. It was simply a letter of forgiveness for her suicide. Nothing inspired or fancy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You've given so much to these boards, LA. I'm happy that these boards can now give some back to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO

No, in real life I don't usually go point by point...I think you pointed out that the style I've adopted from here has permeated my non-posts, as well!

You make a great point about what's lacking in my letter...my love isn't dependent on their choices...my participation is...did I get what you meant well enough? This is all a big boundary issue, and somehow I lose my way when it comes to my folks. Geesh...my lower lip just pouched as I wrote that! Ack.

As far as them disconnecting with others...that's what I can't tell given I'm their daughter...see, they married just shy of one year of my mother's death...and sent us (sis and me) off to my mother's relatives for the summer while they redid the house and got married...then they drove through to pick us up and take us to other relatives to be introduced...my SM didn't like what the first old friends said to her...they were cut out; so was my aunt and uncle...within a year, all of my dead mother's relatives and friends were off limits...and we had to be loyal to new mom.

This is my 9-year-old talking...I remember that these people were still grieving my mother and yes, they did not embrace and warm to my SM...I believe they would have in time, for the have my loved my father as long as I've known them. And yes, I betrayed her trust by communicating when I left home at 17...these were my people...and she stated I was disloyal...to hold her grudges was love to her.

So this is the cutting out I knew of...however, these weren't children...my SM, as a person, had no mother and no children of her own...this isn't a case of someone without good intent...she has desperately good intent, I believe...and has had no models...she was raised by her two sisters, only a decade older than her...so I think this shutting out what feels like an attack is her way. And I've known this. I just don't know what to do with what I know...knowing it does not lessen the pain of being shut out.

Anyway...does that count? I don't know if they've done this to my sister...or any of Dad's relatives...I don't know. I wish I knew.

Because of this loyalty issue, I fear asking her neighbor across the street or next door, because I believe she would see that as betrayal...me asking if they do this to others. I felt really good asking those questions directly to them...and maybe I will choose to do that in the letter and let go the results. And simplify the questions so that I'm not putting edge on them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for being here; for your time and your caring.

LA

Rin...you being here to be here for me means so much to me. Thank you...and yes, this learning to love and be loved in a whole 'nother way is tricky stuff. I get it, lose it, get it, lose it...because changing this belief seems to go against so many other ones I have...an army of beliefs...I have had for the last 40 years...feels kind of overwhelming, and I slip back into earning, deserving, and feeling punishing...YUCK!!!

And thanks for appreciating me laying my underwear out here...that O&H...I do really try to live it...to be honest...and I fear sounding like a victim, a weenie...I DO!!! Sharing this process is embarrassing...as a marriage partner, I don't have to do this, don't choose to react instead of act...I don't and it's lovely, inspiring, and I feel twice as unprepared to not do well in acting with my parents.

Does that make sense?

Can we lay boobytraps for ourselves? (Who am I, Gilligan?)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

ChaCha...

Thank you for revoking your silent membership...and taking out the FULL one...I hated the idea of having to hunt you down and holding your big toe to a feather until you gave it up.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I learn from you, too, and enjoy your posts, most of which I've seen on Rin's thread...you are an encouragement to her, to me and to yourself. Thank you for posting...silence SUCKS.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Wow, LA, it is truly amazing, wading through all of this together. Like I said on my post this morning, I feel like a band together, equals, helping one another, sharing resources as we run low, like perspective or gentleness or forgiveness or trust or loyalty! Even bad jokes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Working this out, how are you feeling? Moving toward acceptance?

Hi LA,

Thank you for sharing your letter with us....

Just wanted you to know that I am very much inspired by your continual pursuit relating to one's choices, perception, truth, intimacy, respect, responsibility...just to name a few....and how generous you have been with your time and knowledge in helping MB posters.

With regards to your letter...you have eloquently written down what you need to say, I now wonder if the references to very specific incidents take away from 'core' elements of your letter.....

so....LA, I thought I would give it a shot at your letter to see what stood out for me...the 'bare bones'...please don't think that this means that the rest is unimportant! ...just an exercise...looking for key elements...the 'thread' in your letter....hoping that it might be helpful to you in some way....

It has also made me realize that on this site...discussions of fear of abandonment is usually related to W\WS...but your situation points to what I believe can be an even greater fear to overcome.....that of one's parents!

LA...I see it as your next challenge...and I do believe you will turn this 'around' one way or another as you have with your M!

"Dear Mom and Dad,

This is a love letter.

...I have been grateful for each “Hello” when you’ve answered my call. That act means acceptance to me....

....Our connection matters to me...

...I said I was sorry for raising my voice, for yelling. Mom, you said it really well--neither one of us felt heard and we couldn't hear each other over our own voices.

...You provided a great insight for me, Mom, when you said you don’t even know your daughters and I automatically saw that as rejection…instead of seeing it as your choice to not know us..

...I fear you shutting me out, and I call, write and visit, anyway...

I believe you know I have a huge fear of abandonment... Feels like the old days, Mom. Feels like punishment...being grounded from you...having you taken away from me, each time: It feels devastating to me.

I am grateful for our confrontation because I believe I now have your truth as to why I was not allowed to come to Christmas and for your surgery...

... brought up the constant question I’ve had since childhood, “What had I done that was so bad to be excluded like that from my family?”

Thank you for the truth....

...There are two halves to trust, I believe…the part you earn and the part you choose to give. I am afraid of giving my half of the trust. I need it earned back through honesty, openness and being mutually committed to working through and on our relationship.

...what I call disowning is not talking. Silent treatment....What is difficult is not knowing for how long, if anything will be addressed or if it will be ignored…and I confuse this with being punished and ignored. It’s not the same.

I know my voice, my presence in your life is important to you, too. I know this because you have said it was. That may have changed...

...To continue to commit to seeing you and risk it being denied is beyond what I can bear right now. I had hoped maybe next year I would have grown enough to do that.

I realize the consequences...that I may not see either of you again in my lifetime. My very deep, true loss.

....I've been working hard on seeing where I am really rejected, and where I feel it even when I am not...

I'm filled up with sorrow...like thick, wet air inside my body, pushing outward...I have a humid heart...I am sharing what I feel with you, not blaming you.

My compromise was to call, be present, once a week; share what I could of myself, and my family, with you both. Not in person, just the next best thing.

In your card, Mom, you say I have a lot of resentment for your choices.... I know it is my poison...

...I do not believe in shutting you out to protect myself; I believe in not putting myself in harm's way.

To do this, I need to see truth, not my twisted perceptions. I believe I dodge truth, as well. Shade it out of fear of being hurtful. Not being truthful hurts more.

...

I would like to hear and tell truth. I would like to know if you’ve done this with others in your lives, Mom and Dad…who you have stopped speaking to and why. I feel alone in this, as if I’m the one defective person you know. And yes, I feel defective and know I am not...Knowing is one thing--really believing is what I’m working on.

I do not want to have a fear-based relationship. What I shared with you these last few years, Mom, was my deepest fears and feelings; my most ugly self, and I felt accepted and loved anyway. To me, that was evidence there wouldn’t be another time of disownment. That was my assumption and I was wrong. And if your truth is that you don’t want to know details, I respect that. I can share my thoughts, feelings and beliefs without details.

...I’ve learned that 90% of conflicts in relationships are to be understood, not solved. I believe we can come to that understanding through effort, being open and honest, and really accept who we are to each other.

..I know how petty I am inside, not wanting to call and talk to Dad to share my life, my family, without Mom doing the same. I will overcome that when I understand the difference between you both choosing to be united as parents and actually being separate adults. I don’t understand it right now.

Mom, I heard you say, “You have hurt me so much. Hurt me to the bone.” I yelled because I can’t take that blame, being that cause for hurting you by my choices in life, about my life. I cannot do that anymore. Your pain is your own—as is your resentment, anger, fear and love. I will no longer believe I have been or am harmful to you. I choose to believe you own your own emotions, choose your life. My words here are written from pure intent…to be respectful, come from love and honesty. You may feel great pain—I am not doing that. You may believe I do not love you, or love you enough, or in the right way—I honor your choice to believe what you believe. The act of writing my intent, honing it, with great consideration, is my proof. My attempts to connect when we are disconnected is proof of my choice to love you. My influence on you and your life is limited by what you allow.

Please tell me if in your statement you were blaming me for your pain. I took it that way... I would like to know your truth instead. And I would like to know if in the future you will choose do this again, to disconnect.

I know that there are choices I make you do not approve of—and I have taken that disapproval personally, that you don’t approve of me. I strive to separate those because one does not mean the other.

...And I choose to love you and Dad.

This is my love letter.

P.S. ...I heard you say you were sorry for yelling, also.

...I remember in 2003 on the back porch, you asked if I’d forgiven you and I said, yes, of course…you were only doing what you had to do. I betrayed myself then. I’m not doing that now. That adds to my pain, when I do that, and I have falsely believed that added pain came from your choices, when it came from me, taking blame, falsely believing then I could control being excluded by not making you exclude me. I craved your approval, no more disownment. It came from my fear. This request comes from my love."

LA,
Why are you writing the letter?

Please consider carefully. The question has context.

I think you'll understand.

SS

Later Edit
When I read this (what I wrote) the question sounds harsh. Were I asking in person, it would be asked in a quiet voice. You would feel me trying to draw you out. You would feel care, and concern in my voice.
Still, I think you will understand.

I have the same question, LA. What do you want the letter to do? Is it some kind of answer to your mother's cards?

HI LA

I don’t have much to add but I’ve been following this thread and I am proud to be
One of your fans, you have a big strong family here, you have helped a lot of people
Here, you have taught me a lot, I have learned a lot from you.

Now I don’t know how your parents are like, but they are reaching an age where they become stubborn and they start acting like kids again, you know you cannot reason
With older people they think they know everything, the question is (and I think either you
Asked me that or somebody else did),

Do you want to be right or you want a relationship with your parents?

Just my thoughts, I had hard time communicating with my dad at his old age, turned out it was the early stages of Alzheimer.

Remember “ Between Parent and child” ok?
You got the message?

LA you have no idea how much you are appreciated right here, you SHOULD be proud of yourself, no seriously, you SHOULD.


((((((((((LA)))))))))).

I know you will come up on top.

Tony.

Lunamare....huge thanks to you for the editing...and yes, I really like it...sounds more like me, the less-tortured, self-absorbed version me.

:}

I've been working and writing little bits...broke down over HB's marvelous post...called him a few mean names as I blew my nose...so I'm behind on all the responses...and trying to hit a deadline...

I am absorbing, rethinking the entire letter...why do I want to say anything? My last words to them, after hearing my father say Mom wasn't speaking to me because I wasn't safe, were "Well, I'll call you in a few months, I guess."

I'm not proud of that. Hence, the response...and I have the brakes on full...no impulsive reactions...only in my head.

What do I want the letter to do? I'll think on that...

(((SS))) I heard the pure caring you asked...can't help but get that from every post you write...appreciate very much your signal to get underneath, even more, my intent and really look at it.

(((TruBluz))) I'm lost. I don't see all my choices or alternatives.

Luna...Maybe this really isn't the shut out I feared...if she's sending cards, that's contact. I realize I am capable of convincing myself what is and it isn't.

Any direction is appreciated. Are there more choices besides a letter, a call or nothing at all?

LA

At the risk of this sounding like I'm telling you what you are thinking.................

It looks like -
From where I sit reading -

It looks like you want to be loved and understood. It looks like you want to right all the wrongs, set everything straight, make it all better.

It looks like you want to help them see where the mistakes are, on both sides.

It looks like you want to do all this from a safe distance.
(if that were possible)

Are you willing to stick your emotional neck out?

Backtrack:
You are getting such good help, from people who care a lot about you. Look at all who have written to you. Look at how highly they think of you.

You defective?
I think not.

Human?

Yes.

Sometimes makes mistakes?

Yes.

Ah - SOMETIMES makes mistakes.

Sometimes - does not mean ALWAYS.

Neither does it mean NEVER. (grin)

You are human.
Mom and Dad are human.

They might not have read HNHN, or "Love Busters, Habits that destroy romantic love."

They might not understand how to get out of the behaviors that destroy good feelings, and how to get into the behaviors that create good relationships.

You do though - You do.

I wonder what I would write if I were writing your letter.
I wonder if I would write something like this:

(Probably on a nice card that said I loved them.)

Dear Mom, and Dad,
I'm not sure how I got here, or what to do, so how about we start over.

I love you.

I want to apologize for everything. All the hurt, all the mistakes, all the damage, and all the bad feelings.

Can we please start over?

Can I visit you, and hug you and tell you I love you?
Will you do the same for me?

If not, I understand, but I have to try.

Realizing I am human, I will probably still make mistakes in the future. I hope you can forgive me and that we can develop a close relationship that will transcend any differences and be a help to all of us.

Again, I am sorry, and I apologize.
Please tell me what to do next.

Sincerely,
Loving Anyway.



This is just for example, you would have to do it in your own words.

If you stand on a bridge, and look in the water, you see MOVING WATER. There is a good chance you will never see THAT WATER again.

If you want to swim, soak your feet, skip a rock, or get a drink, you catch what ever water is going by right then.

We live in the present. We can't change the past, or see the future. All we can do is our best today.


So.......... What do you want to accomplish with this?

SS

What Still Seeking said. Exactly. LOL.

LA, the letter you wrote is beautiful and clearly heartfelt. But it tries to do so many different things that the purposes kind of get diluted IMO.

I'm reading between the lines and making the assumption that you don't really want to dissect specific problematic instances with your parents, but rather to find a way to start building a new kind of relationship with them. Or at least to apologize to them and clear up the feelings on your side.

If that is correct, then I would focus a much shorter letter on that and I would be broad in my apologies and in expressing my wishes for the future. Just as StillSeeking expressed.

If your goal was to respond to those specific incidents, then do that. And try to do it without globalizing the incidents. But my instinct tells me it is more than that.

Also, there is a bit of a lecturish tone to parts of the letter. I don't know your parents, but mine would respond very poorly to anything that smacked of me trying to correct them. My parents are about ten years older than yours, but they and others of their generation are not, in my expereience, able or willing to deal with their children pointing out their mistakes. If I sent them such a letter, all they would see was the criticism. The love would be lost.

I have found that my parents are open to my pointing out their disrespectful comments in the moment, if I use a mirroring technique and "I" statements to point them out. But I don't think they would deal with it well in a letter. Perhaps your parents are different, but that is my experience.

Whatever you do, don't drop that first paragraph. It is beautiful. As a parent, it is the kind of thing I would remember for a lifetime.

Tru

Hi LA,

I am arriving to this thread very late - have been wrapped up in my own life drama.

This is a great thread and all of the posters have hit upon really good points. I don't know that I am qualified enough to put in my .02 or not, but I will anyway.

Your letter to your parents is beautiful and very heartfelt, but my impression is that it was written almost entirely by that 9 year old child (not a bash - just an observation). Even the parts where I "hear" you taking responsibility - I "see" that 9 year old standing there, with you backing her up.

FOO issues are extremely tough. I believe that we relate to our parents on a continuum - adult on one side, child on the other, one always a part of the other...sometimes more, sometimes less...but never really separate. Don't know if that makes sense or not. Kind of like a heart and head kind of thing. For me, even though I think with the adult head, when it comes to my parents, I feel with the child's heart.

I would ask the same question as SS - what is your intent? Being a veteran fixer myself, and one who likes to wrap everything up in nice little packages, I would ask if your letter is motivated by a desire to "fix" everything with your parents in light of the fact that they are getting older.

I also hear you asking for guarantees that this won't happen again - asking for unconditional love and acceptance.

BTW, I was also unmarried and pregnant at a young age. One of the best things my mother did was to leave the decision of what to do totally up to me. She said at the time "you will have to make this choice because you will have to live with it for the rest of your life". Wise words from someone who never seemed to make decisions that I believed to be wise.

Don't apologize for your decision, don't say that it was wrong, don't agree with her truth. All decisons we make are choices, they lead us where we need to be. In hindsight, we like to look back and validate our choices - good decisions, bad decisions - based on the outcome. I tend to disagree with that type of thinking. I firmly believe that God brings us through the places we need to go and that even the so-called "bad" decisions are the right ones for us at the time. They place us on the right path for this journey that we are on.

My point was that even in that, I heard the 9 year old seeking approval.

Nurture that child LA - she is wonderful, precious, completely lovable. It is possible for us to re-parent our inner child and give them that unconditional love and acceptance that they need. Your "owning your own villagers" thread really spoke to me about that. It made me realize that my inner child seems to be the mayor of the villagers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, SS, Tru and Lizzie...

I was logged in last night and had begun a reply...didn't log out, either, when I got the call to pick up my YS from teh skate park and spend the next four hours in the ER.

Back firmly in my parent role...God's touch, I believe...because I discovered my son fears my anger more than physical pain.

That struck a chord in me.

And yes, I was angry!! He wasn't supposed to be there...had injured his knee the night before...and this 16 and half year old...just got back in school (huge cheers and kudos to him), got his job back, and now, has a broken arm, stitched chin and his $6k of braces are endangered for chipped teeth, one broken.

Part of my anger came from my hidden expectation that our ER days were over...that was definitely my part...DH left work to accompany us and we spent the waiting time recalling all the other visits between our three sons and myself. My DH has yet to break a bone or be in a hospital.

You've asked me my why...and I'm working on it. I have feared their anger more than my pain. I have to recheck that now, because I believe I fear my pain more than their anger...and that's really hard to distinguish.

I haven't been able to get back into my choice space...and I really do see this in my head as feeling like a BH dealing with a WS...not a FWS.

I do.

I know I cannot protect myself from them doing this...yet my heart wants me to. I felt actual nausea when I read SS and Tru's statements to apologize and go on...and no, my head doesn't agree with my body and emotional reactions.

I have said all that I said in my letter in past letters...each time taking full responsibility and more...my blame...to woo them back to speaking to me. I have written these love letters so that I could have a relationship with them at any cost...if they allowed.

Lizzie is right...my inner child is running me right now...and I don't see me backing her up if I don't make a boundary. I grew up boundaryless...I'm still learning I am a self at all...instead of an image created by them. That's where my pettiness comes in...I have a newborn self in me and I don't know how to reconnect this time--but apologizing again and again isn't going to say I'm anything but defective and wrong to me...honestly...I'm not proud to say this.

That moving water, SS...is where I believed I drowned myself...I did that...not them...I cannot undo what they've said...once I did ask, how long? And my Dad told me, "Until you're a decent citizen, a decent person, then we'll consider talking to you." Ended up four years...and a letter much like this one written, labored over...and several others before it, unanswered...cards, etc...all of it...I really don't know what makes them end these times, what one letter contains that others do not...I've believed it is me agreeing with them...apologizing and not doing those things again...in the way they want me to...if I agree with them, then they feel securely loved by me.

I don't trust my voice to speak right now, hence the letter form. I want to act bravely and truely...to them and to myself. I don't want to apologize again and say let's start over again. I don't want to cut them entirely out of my life...and I don't want to have a relationship with them, either, I guess.

I need to be stronger...know that when they judge and tell me who I am, it's their opinion. Like the WS rewriting history and saying how the BS made them have the affair...I know I'm taking what isn't mine to heart. Stabbing my own self with their truth...and that is what I don't understand...why I can't break that, as I did with my DH.

Is it the same thing? My WH came back after he left...he did that only once...he has deep remorse...I don't fear him leaving again...and down the line, he might. How do I get to where I'm okay with or without my parents?

How do I manage to keep any self-respect when I take their opinions as my facts? I've been practicing not doing this for over a year...my Mom can be talking about some new product she wants me to try, or her opinion of clothes and want me to agree...and when I answer, "I can see how you really like that, Mom" she says, "Well, don't you?" and I say, "I don't really have an opinion, Mom. I enjoy hearing about things you're excited about." She replies, "Well, what kind of life are you living? You should care about this."

I am not exaggerating...and I think I have built resentment because of my own expectations...that I finally got decent enough, respectful enough...and it isn't enough. Until I quit what? Quit doing what?

I am immensely blessed, folks. I really am. I am held when I cry, heard and understood by my family...my DH, my sons and friends. My life is bountiful...just as I am. Lots of acceptance and support...honesty. And this from the same people who have chosen to go through this with me again and again.

Can I not want to again because I feel such guilt and shame with my own family? Do I want to protect them from this?

And if so, am I blocking God's work?

I'm so lost. I believe the right thing to do is to have a relationship with my parents...and I am terrified of doing the right thing.

LA

P.S. To Lizzie...how do I reparent my 9yrold? How do I nuture me in that way...my counselor said I had to bring my adult with me when I visited...with boundaries...and to not put myself in harm's way...so I'm torn up and confused...I feel like either I betray myself again or them.

Hi LA -

I've been following this thread, and I had a thought occur to me this morning. If it's been expressed by wiser heads than me, I apologize for repeating it. Not trying to steal anyone's thunder <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could it be, by attempting to own everything you think you did wrong in their eyes, that you are trying to manipulate (however subconsciously) their response?

Are you afraid that if you don't say the right thing, do the right thing (in their eyes), that you will not be accepted?

Perhaps it's even bordering on a DJ....maybe what you believe to be their expectations, or their point of views, aren't really, but merely your interpretation or understanding?

Separate but equal is what comes to my mind. You are, and always will be, their child. But you are also an adult, a wife, and a mother in your own right.

Both of my parents are gone now, so I don't have parent-child issues to deal with any longer (outside of the ghosts of mom's suicide, and the forever-present pain of my dad's death). But looking back on the last few years of my mom's life, I can see where we were locked in a struggle of trying (and failing miserably) to define our post-childhood relationship, where I was still her son, and she was still my mother, but we were both adults. I think that issue may be playing a role in your current situation.

I could be wrong. It happens...way more than I care to admit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As you've advised me so many times, comfort your inner child. But act from your adult self (ok, so that's a paraphrase <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Define your boundaries. What you will and won't accept. What you will and won't do. Listen to what they want from you - what they really want, and decide if you can meet those expectations.

Tell them what you want - them in your life, a happy, healthy relationship. Tell them what you're willing to do, and what you're not willing to do.

Then let them decide how to react to that - and respect their decision.

You know this, and you can do this. I know you can, because you live it everyday, and it comes through in your writings here on MB.

Beware the trap of trying to get the answer you want (and it's an easy trap to fall into - I spend more time digging myself out of that hole than anything else, it seems).

Few things in life hurt more than rejection from those we most want in our lives - whether that rejection is real or imagined. But that rejection is not a reflection upon who you are. Be honest and true - to yourself above all else.

I hope your son is doing better.

(((LA)))

Thank you, HB, very, very much.

You are right on...I am terribly afraid of putting a boundary in place and enforcing it with them...I don't trust myself. What seems appropriate gets blurred with them. I think it's me finally getting the partner part of marriage and not having a clue in the child-parent relationship.

I can't seem to get the separate but equal in there, from my head to my heart...into my belief system.

Your encouragement is my blessing. Thank you so much.

LA

Tony, I saw your post just now. And I laughed!! Thank you! What a great ShouldAGuy you are.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe I would better understand their choices now had they not had this pattern since 1983. I am turning the age my mother was when she married my father, 35 years ago. Somehow, that seemed relevant to share with you.

However, I will keep that possibility in mind, because I know I tend to see them as they were then, when they married, and not see them as now...and they change, too. They are on that same spiral staircase, different rung, same pole...and they see me as the kid I was, too. So they say.

Do I want to be right or have a relationship? I don't know. I think I would be a horrid person if I didn't want it...

Thank you for posting to me...this is a big strong family here. I've been aware of my MB time, how it mirrors my experience with being connected to and disconnected from...I was proud the first time I posted "I have abandonment issues here!" when they deleted their posts or stopped posting altogether. Now you see I wasn't lying (which I might do for a joke...I'm working on that).

Each post is like what I wrote in my letter...and an answering post, the same for me...acceptance, honesty and connection...doesn't depend on agreement, actions or opinions...expressing who we are and what we think, how we feel.

Do you think having MB has worked against me in this regard? Where I formed an expectation from my faith we can all change, live separate and equally...and this is where the source of my pain is coming from, on the inside?

LA

How do I get to where I'm okay with or without my parents?

I don't think you get to that point any more than God gets to the point where he is OK with some of his childen not making it.

However, we need to know and accept things as they really are. Not like them, or stop trying to make them better, but realize what the truth is.

Things are what they really are, and not otherwise. When we understand the true state of things, we have a basis for our future actions in relation to them.

I felt actual nausea when I read SS and Tru's statements to apologize and go on...and no, my head doesn't agree with my body and emotional reactions.

There had to be a starting point to begin this discussion (from this end). Forgive me for causing pain, it was never my intent, though I was afraid you might have these kinds of feelings.

Here are some things to think about.

1. You can't fix other people.

2. You can't teach someone that doesn't want to learn.

I think those two pretty much cover what you need to know to have a relationship with your parents. (Lets lighten this up, I have this big grin on my face while I type - think about these two in this context.) You know, ironic humor. You love them so much, but can't get through to them. See if you can detach a little bit while you read the rest of this.

So anyway, you love these two people, but you can't help them much.

The other side if this is YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP.

I see that as the real problem.

Why?

Well, all of us have disfunctional relationships. At least I think so. As I think of my friends, and relations, and examine how they interact with friends and family I see many similarities with what you cope with.

Of course it varies as to the degree of disfunction.

If your purpose in writing the letter is to teach them something, I don't think it will work.

If it's to let them see your side, I don't think they will "get it."

If it's to vent, and get it off your chest........ well, did it work? (another big grin.)

Please don't think I'm making light of your feelings. I want to help you get from where you are, to a place where you can interact with them, take all that they say and let it go, but still love them, and talk to them.

If you feel they are doing it on purpose to torment you, then I would not have contact with them.

If you think they mean well, but go about things the wrong way, (understatement, understatement) then you can probably find a way to make this work.

Let me condense this all down into a few thouhts now -

You can't fix them, so you have two choices (as I see it.)

1. Have no contact with them.

2. Ignore all the **** you get from them, smile, agree that the product is cool, and love them anyway.


I can't do much for them, but I respect you, and want you to get through this.

We really can take the high road, even when others treat us badly. It may take some thought, and some prayer, but I believe you can really make this work for you.

What this is really about to me, is can YOU overcome the way they treat you and be the better person that can change this relationship.

I believe you can.

Look at yourself in the mirror.
Don't you agree with me?


If you see the same person I see, you'll be impressed. I think she has a lot more going for her than SHE sometimes thinks she does.

SS

What I wrote was not relevent?

LA,

Here is my experience with re-parenting my inner child. This was something that I did a lot of work on quite a few years ago. An ongoing process - she lets me know when I need to give her more attention.

A little background _ from the time I was 5 until the time I was 9, I was molested by my father and also physically abused. On some level, my mother knew. I had horrible nightmares, wet my pants, bit my nails, jumped at the slightest sound, and complained about hurting "down there". Her solution - a trip to the doctors and a prescription for chloral hydrate to make me sleep at night. THe result = easier target for my father.

I only remebered the fact that I was given this awful, smelly, green medicine to drink before bed to help me sleep. I'll never forget my experience as a new nurse - opening a bottle of chloral hydrate to give to a patient for sleep, to see that color and smell that smell, and to have it feel like I just got punched in the stomach. I remembered, but I pushed it away.

Years later, an abusive marriage and panic attacks led me to seek help and that is where I learned about the inner child.

First, I wrote a letter to my father - one that I knew I wouldn't send. I blasted him, I raged, cried, screamed, hared, ranted. I let it all out. My counselor told me to just write - straight from the haeart - no do-overs, no restraint. I did the same with my mother. I shared those letters with the counselor and got the one thing I needed to start my healing - validation.

I had been hurt - period. The child doesn't need to justify. And in all of our dealings with our parents, a piece of that child remains - hence my statement about not being able to fully separate. Maybe compartmentalizing is more appropriate. Accept that the feelings belong to the child, but the actions need to come from the adult.

For me, I found a picture of myself at 5. I carried it with me everywhere. At first I needed to take out the picture in order to help me keep the distinction between what was hers and what was mine. I embraced the fact that this innocent and trusting child was still in me and that nobody had helped her to heal. I went about reparenting her, treating her like I would my own child.

I learned to see that she was behind the fears and the hurts. And when I was hurting I would stop - everything - and I would talk to her. I would validate her. I would literally hug myself, rub my arms, speak to myself in soothing and reassuring tones. I would do those things for me that I would do for my own children. I would tell her that I was there for her, that I could protect her now. I drew her a warm bath, I tucked her into bed, I bought her fuzzy slippers, and I kept telling her she was loved and safe.

All internal work. Recognizing what was missing, and providing it. Validating the hurts, providing those guarantees. I couldn't expect others to not disappoint me, but I knew I had the means to protect my inner child once I acknowledged her and accepted responsibility for her.

I don't know if this will help you or not, but I hear your inner child calling out for love.So yes, bring your adult to her, care for her, but your boundaries lie in knowing what is hers and what is yours. Something that I KNOW you can do.

(((((LA)))))

An extra that I don't always share - a poem I wrote to my inner child - because I think it might help you:

She sits in silent blackness
She's been waiting there for years
Trapped benaeth the layers
Of secrets, lies, and fears

Her pain had never mattered
Cries of torment reached deaf ears
Wandering, bruised and battered
Lost in loneliness and tears

I found her trembling in a corner
I forgot that she was there
Among my heart's wreck and ruin
Where it hurt too much to care

Can I tell you that I'm sorry
For the pain you've had to bear
For the burden that you carried
Because no one else was there

I wish I could have spared you
From those things so unjust
From the shame you thought belonged to you
From those who stole your trust

But I can't take back yesterday
So today, we'll start anew
Up til now it wasn't possible
Because inner child, I was you.

Oh, LA, thank you. I really needed to hear that again.

My thoughts and my prayers are with you.

LA,

Now I'm the one with abandonment issues, wondering if you overlooked my second reply to you or if you just didn't like it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

But I'm going to plunge ahead anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think I understand some of the feelings you are going through. My parents kicked me out of their house when I was 16. It was just for a day, but I was thoroughly terrified for the entire day, wondering where I was going to sleep that night and how I was going to take care of myself. While that day is no longer as close to the surface of my memory as it once was, your posts about your FOO and your pain and fear remind me so much of my own pain. As I'm typing, I can nearly taste the fear, so thick and heavy and choking.

I have not yet set boundaries with them. Physical space has helped a lot, as they live across the country now and no longer expect to see or hear from me as much as they did.

They have not apologized or asked forgiveness. I have told them how badly I was hurt, and they replied by professing that their pain was greater.

Now, after all these years, I can see that they were struggling, doing the best they knew how to do at the time. And I can see that they have changed in a lot of ways.

They still aren't the parents I wanted, though, and SS is right, of course: I can't change them or teach them.

Can you do a 180 with your parents? Can you stop pursuing them, remain engaged if they choose to reach out to you, and yet be prepared to enforce boundaries if needed? Even if they choose not to pursue you, I see that as being better for you than throwing yourself at their feet, twisting yourself up to try to be the "decent citizen" they say you should be.

Can you let go?

I think you should still write the letter, and use it as a tool to really clarify what you are thinking, feeling, and believing. And then NOT send it. Maybe share it with DH, to get that validation you are missing?

I agree with SS about your two choices: End contact or maintain contact but drop expectations. Whichever you choose, I think you can still love them anyway.

I don't think you will be ready to make that choice until you have fully worked through what you're feeling now, which is why I think the letter is still important for you to work on.

One final thought: I want to second what SS said --



In your corner,
HTBH

Wow, I feel so totally under-qualified to respond much, with all the great responses that are here already.

There are really some very wise people around here. I feel so lucky to have cound this place!

The one thing I did pick up on was: "Do I want to be right or have a relationship? I don't know. I think I would be a horrid person if I didn't want it...".

Similar comments are repeated a few times in your more recent posts ....


I've shared that I have disconnect issues with my dad. I used to call and write and e-mail him over and over, trying to get his acknowledgement. Acknowledgement meant approval, acceptance, being loved. It never came. Two years of that, and only two responses in that entire time.

I thought that I couldn't stop making the effort, that I'd be a bad daughter if I didn't stop trying to connect, trying to show my love and get his back in return.

My counselor at the time had me put a stop to it. I wasn't a bad daughter, and trying to grovel and beg and push him for something that he didn't want was just bringing myself more pain, and not having any effect on him.

I thought it would be a horrible, disrespectful, sinful thing to admit that I didn't want to deal with that pain anymore and to quit trying to beg for his approval.

But my counselor said it was more disrespectful to not let him make the choice. To force a relationship on someoen who doesn't want it.

So I disconnected from him. I sent him a little card with all of my contact information on it and said I'd love to hear from him whenever he wanted, and he was always invited to come visit, etc. Didn't cut him off, but let him set the terms for what kind of relationship he wanted, and still got to set my own terms for what's alright to me.

Maybe this is getting convoluted, but I'm trying to say that you aren't a horrible person to have boundaries, even if they are with your parents. Heck, you're the one who taught me that NOT having boundaries and not enforcing them is what's really disrespectful.

Even with your parents.

That doesn't make you horrible or wrong or bad. It does help you be loving and respectful.


-AmI.

Hi LA,

I hear a desire on your part to want a relationship with your parents..... their acceptance....their love...

...and from some of the exchanges you quote from your parents, I sense some 'manipulation' on their part towards you to either be, do or say what they would like...or, as you say, in order to fulfill their need to have you 'agree' with them to feel accepted....in exchange...

...but it is at your expense....if you have to 'agree' with them even if you don't.....and you will have to evaluate if the price to pay is too high, or not....

...maybe, an attitude of 'agree to disagree' would be better in relation to certain 'issues' or 'events'..... and leave it at that......and limit yourselves for some time on enjoyable activities when you do speak or see each other....

...along the lines of a PLAN A for your parents.....

... I do think that boundaries in a relationship with our parents are harder to put in place than, say, with a WS, because we only has ONE set of parents who are not 'replaceable'.....and also because somehow we regress back to a sense of powerlessness and 'boundarylessness' we felt as a child when dealing with our parents...when we felt wholly 'dependant' on them....and 'fearful' of losing them...being rejected by them, etc etc

...and forget, that we are in the present and are no longer 'dependent' on them....and that we 'choose' when to see them... it's a challenge to work at changing the 'dynamics' of the child-parent relationship to an adult-adult relationship

I also wonder, LA, if you are looking to have a relationship with your parents that they are not 'able' to really have with you given the kind of persons they are and you are.....

....maybe part of the process may involve 'accepting' your parents' limitations.... without having to 'betray' yourself.....

I know that in my case, I love my parents very much and I know that they love me very much...and I do not fear losing their love....however, I know that given the kind of upbringing they have had, their beliefs, their experiences....I choose to limit their involvement or awareness of my day-to-day challenges..... that role in my life used to be played by S, and it is now being taken over by very 'good friends'.....seeing that WS is off with OW!

....and I do think that maybe you, yourself, may have to be the 'adult' that will reassure the 'little girl' inside of you....as your parents may not be up to the task...no matter how badly she needs it!

LA, thank you again for sharing....as no one, I think, can deny that one way or another, our parents are 'key players' in defining who we are!

Sorry to hear about your DS!

SS, you are God-sent...and yes, I'm saying that with a BIG GRIN (and teary eyes, but it's a start)...

:::tearing up my edited 40-times letter:::

Yes, I wanted to fix (to protect myself).

I choose not to.

Yes, I wanted to get them to see what it feels like on this side...which is disrespectful and not in God's design...otherwise, he'd have made a switch we could flip and BE in someone else temporarily.

And yes...this is exactly what I want to know most:

"However, we need to know and accept things as they really are. Not like them, or stop trying to make them better, but realize what the truth is.

Things are what they really are, and not otherwise. When we understand the true state of things, we have a basis for our future actions in relation to them. "

I fear my filter with them is so damaged and out of whack that I can't see how things really are or accept I can't see them, either. Honestly. I know I have built this prison in my filter of all my stuff...justifying, letting go, pulling all that I let go back to me, almost behind my own back...building walls when I wanted to make boundaries...

I can't tell if they do stuff to intentionally harm...honestly, I don't know. I lived as if they did not ever act from meanness, retaliation or malicious intent. I lived and breathed the "they know not what they do, Lord"...and I did that with my marriage, too, until I learned he did know, was capable and conscious...which relieved me greatly...and got me to look at my meanness, retaliatory choices and malicious intent.

I watched them do harmful stuff to others..."That'll fix his wagon!" stuff. I listened to them eliminate groups of people based on race, economic status, and religion. I was of their race, economic status and religion...and they still did it to me. I don't know what they do delibrately or unintentionally.

I can't tell the difference. Can you help me tell the difference? I know that believing blindly that they are doing all of it unintentionally isn't respectful, nor is my choosing to believe they do it all intentionally...somewhere in the middle...probably involves asking, doesn't it, as we go along? Dang. Can you make it easier than that?

Please?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And no, my vent here and in the letter doesn't seem to be helping. I'm hearing weiney whiner weak sniveling and over sensitive in my head. I'm hearing "why haven't you gotten this yet? What good are you?" And the one that lasts..."No one else sees the real you. I do. You can fool them but you can't fool me." I know where those voices come from...and that's what I hear when I look in my mirror.

Okay...SS, are you saying...taking the high road...to earn my own self-respect, to be open to what God is showing me, possibly, to really learn to do this with anyone...not take what is theirs as mine...to attempt to connect and let the results go...

(Standing tribute to HB)...To act from my code and not be response-based. To listen and love anyway.

SS...agreeing the product is cool...that my sister is a bad mother...that her son is spoiled...that my son is spoiled rotten...that I can't do. I need to separate those differences...agree to what truly is benign and stay silent on the stuff that isn't. To stay honest, considerate and present...is that it, SS?

I believe I was doing this, SS...this last year especially...felt closer and safe for them to be closer to me...guess I'm wondering how did I get here? Doesn't really negate the last year, does it? Change my intent...to do it for me, for who I am, not doing it to not be shut out...

Am I close?

Thank you for your respect and encouragement. Your prayers matter to me.

LA

LA:

I'm trying hard not to project my own stuff with my parents/husband onto you, but I'm not sure I'm being totally successful. So please keep that in mind.

I wonder if you are not doing what I did for so long with my husband -- beating my head against a brick wall. I spent most of two decades thinking that if I could just find the right words or the right actions, I could convince my husband to be what I so desperately wanted him to be. I spent four decades doing the same thing with my parents.

I really thought that they just didn't understand what I was asking for. What arrogance, huh? Both my husband and my parents are bright people who totally understood what I was asking for. They just had no intention of changing to be what I wanted. Darn them!

All I got out of that approach was frustration and rejection. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If you have been saying these same things over and over to your parents for years, then I think perhaps you may want to consider that they are deliberately not accommodating you because they don't want to. It won't matter what words you use, or what carrots you hold out for them.

This is them choosing to be who they are. It says nothing at all about you. Or even about how much they love you. Nothing that they say is a "fact" about you. None of their opinions or judgements about you belong to you. It is all theirs.

For me, when I stopped trying to change my parents, stopped trying to "teach" them by sharing my opinions of them, I was able to step back to a place where I could have an adult relationship with them.

What I discovered when I did that is that the kind of relationship I had always wanted with them and tried to manipulate them into was one that would have been appropriate in my childhood; not one that would work for an adult. I wanted them to love me in the ways that they were unable/unwilling to when I was a child. Even if they could have done that, it would not have given me what I needed as an adult.

Now, I use the same rules in relating to my parents that I do with any other adult -- I do my best not to offer advice unless asked. I do not criticize, I do not accept disrespect, nor give it and I do not get overly personal with them.

My advice to you would be to apologize for raising your voice, reiterate your love and let it go.

Tru

LA -

I've debated with myself whether to share this or not, and decided that I will. If for no other reason than to give you a sense of solidarity - that you are not alone in dealing with issues of FOO. If you can get more than that from this, bonus. If it is totally useless to you, I'll accept that too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A little background. The first 10 years or so of my life my mom was not a happy person - battled depression and suicide. My dad stuck by her, and with the help of counselors and a lot of self-work, she got to a better place. I left home when I got my commission in the Navy, and when I returned home 7 years later a lot had changed (I visited once or twice a year every year). The changes were gradual, but to me it seemed sudden.

My mom gradually lost all of the hard work she'd put into herself, as the world as she knew it crumbled around her, primarily the decline (and eventual death) of my dad, who was very much her anchor in this world. I was not prepared for the dramatic changes at home when I returned, and did not deal well with it, IMO. It was at this time that I was building my relationship with MP, which put further demands on my time and (from her point of view) took me away from her, to one degree or another.

We gradually became estranged (and I was disowned for a short period of time - we reconciled, to some degree, about a month before dad passed away); mom committed suicide a month after my daughter was born (neither of my parents ever met my daughter). I carried a lot of guilt for her suicide, and a good deal of bitterness towards her for that choice. My dad's one request of me (his only son - and his only child) that I look after mom after he was gone (he was 22 years her senior), and I felt that I had not fulfilled my promise to him. Mom's suicide (and my detiorating relationship with her) are generally agreed between MP and I to be the point where things in our marriage started going south (not assigning blame to mom for that, just acknowledging the event). Mom's suicide is something that I never really dealt with until recently.

What follows below is a journal entry I wrote in February. I wrote it at the instruction of the counselor we were seeing at the time. He had me write down a list of all the things I had lost in my life, including things related to the affair, and then wanted me to tackle one at a time. He intended for me to work on the A related stuff first, but I tackled mom first. It was probably one of the hardest things I ever wrote - very few things can make me cry, but writing this was one. It was my attempt to....repair what I could, forgive what needed to be forgiven, and declare my feelings for my mom once and for all. So here goes. Take from it what you can.

==========================================================

Mom's suicide. That's a toughy. Where to begin? Now that I've got a few tears out of my system. I know, on an intellectual level, that her suicide was not my fault. It was her choice. But I cannot dismiss my mom's suicide without acknowledging my contributions to the state of her mind and well-being.

We pushed each other away. I did not want to deal with her. And her emotions. And her moods. I didn't just move her down my priority list, I dropped her off it completely. I was not willing to be there for her. When I was, it was a grudging presence. I was selfish.

Was I always such a selfish person? What happened? Where did my servant nature go? Did I ever have one? I think I did. I thought I did.

No wonder life gets so difficult for me sometimes. I have lost (or worse, never had) a servant attitude. Wonderful. I'm more dysfunctional than I thought.

OK. That was the old me. I'm a new me by the grace of God. But I still have to deal with the fallout of the old me. The selfish, arrogant, what's-in-it-for-me masquerading as a servant and nice guy me.

Mom's last words to me were (on a voice mail) "too little, too late." Chances are good that by the time I got the message, she was dead.

So what did I do? I got mad at her and did not even bother to call her back. I abandoned her again. And about 60 hours later I got a phone call telling me the police had entered her room and found her dead by suicide. Her body was cremated before we could see her.

I never got to say goodbye! I lost the opportunity to repair things between us. I wasted prior opportunities. I completely failed to honor my Dad's one wish - that I look after mom and take care of her after he was gone.

And I wonder why I have problems in my life now? Maybe I'm incapable of having successful relationships. I am changing for the better, but I obviously haven't done so well in the past.

Complete lack of closure. That, coupled with my failure, is what tears me up so much. How do you make things right with someone who's dead? You can't.

Mom's suicide note ended with "Forgive me for your sakes." How can you forgive someone who's dead? It's not like I can call up Heaven and say I forgive you for your cruel, selfish act. She might not accept it even if I could.

I have to let this go. But it is so entwined in who I am, buried so deep in me, that I'm not sure how to disentangle myself from it. I have to forgive to move forward. Forgive in my heart and mind, at least, even if I can't forgive in person. It's a process. It takes time. But every process has a beginning (and an end). This one starts now.

Mom, I forgive you. For everything you did that hurt me, intentional or not. I am so very sorry for what I did (and didn't) do that left you believing you had no family left. I did love you - not always the person you were acting, but the person you truly were. You taught me many good things. My failures are my own, not due to anything you did or didn't do raising me. I miss the mom I knew in the last half of my childhood. She was not there when I came back, and I didn't bother to dig for her. You are, and will be, missed. You lived your life as best you could. While I do not agree with your final choice, it was ultimately yours to make, and I respect and accept that. I do not and will not judge you on the basis of one act, however permanent and tragic it was. It does not define who you really were. I will cherish the many good memories, and dismiss the bad ones. Thank you for bringing me into this world, and training me up to be a Godly man. It took a long time, and a good deal of tragedy but it finally sank in. I release you. Rest in the comfort and glory of God with Dad. I will see you again. When I do, I will tell you I love you, for I do. Past, present and future. I love you and miss you.

I need to get in on this discussion and I'm not sure how to do it...this site confuses me..any help?

Same way you posted to other threads, ALF...using the reply button or the quick reply below.

Welcome.

Luna, HB, Tru and HTBH...I'm digesting all of this...feeling very moved. Gonna post when I get home.

LA

Lizzy,
Your poem made me cry. I don't do that much these days, I thought reading on MB for 4 years had burned it all out of me. It's important we come to know and love ourselves. We have to like us before we can like others correctly.

LA,
I have read everyone's posts, and you have such good help. I would like to comment on what everyone has said, and how it applies, but I don't dare take that kind of time. I'm going to go long as it is. Such great help!! From people who love you, and know your worth.



Yes, I wanted to get them to see what it feels like on this side...which is disrespectful and not in God's design...otherwise, he'd have made a switch we could flip and BE in someone else temporarily.

I think it a good thing for them to understand your thoughts and feelings. If they were humble, and teachable, you could try it........... but I am not seeing that.

I was affected by the emotion in your letter, but I don't believe they would see it the same way. Please don't feel bad about wanting to be understood. It is one of the yearnings of the human heart, and it's importnant and good. It's just not helpful to share with people who won't listen.



I fear my filter with them is so damaged and out of whack that I can't see how things really are or accept I can't see them, either. Honestly. I know I have built this prison in my filter of all my stuff...justifying, letting go, pulling all that I let go back to me, almost behind my own back...building walls when I wanted to make boundaries...

Or perhaps it's not helpful to share deep feelings with people who don't care how we feel.

You care.
You hurt when others hurt, you feel pain when others are struggeling. Not everyone is like you are. I think part of the problem is that you can't figure out why they can't understand what you understand.

Your heart may be different, but many of your coping skills come from them, because they raised you and taught you. Some things may need to be re-learned. I think the boundaries/walls thing will work itself out over time.

This might be the right time go find a good IC. I think it could really help. We are a support group, I think regular visits with a pro could really make a difference for you.

I can't tell if they do stuff to intentionally harm...honestly, I don't know.

It occurs to me that even people who mean well can do damage. Perhaps intent is not nearly as important as how it affects you. You want so much to be accepted, and loved. They are not letting you in though.


I watched them do harmful stuff to others..."That'll fix his wagon!" stuff. .................................
I can't tell the difference. Can you help me tell the difference? I know that believing blindly that they are doing all of it unintentionally isn't respectful, nor is my choosing to believe they do it all intentionally...somewhere in the middle...probably involves asking, doesn't it, as we go along? Dang. Can you make it easier than that?

Please?

There is no magic on this end - LOL. It would be easy to say: "Protect your feelings, cut them off, let them deal with it."
I suspect you are not so worried about your feelings as we are. You just want it all to work out, even if it hurts.

It's like you want to grab them and shake them and say "HEY, there are two sides to this WHY ARE YOU NOT SEEING ALL THE SIDES !!"

Take a few months and think about it. What do you want? How much can you stand? Will they EVER get it?

It's been years - a few more months won't hurt.

[n] I'm hearing weiney whiner weak sniveling and over sensitive in my head.[/b]

When I read your letter I was thinking how badly you had been hurt, and how much you wanted it to have a real, loving relationship with your parents.

I'm hearing "why haven't you gotten this yet? What good are you?" And the one that lasts..."No one else sees the real you. I do. You can fool them but you can't fool me." I know where those voices come from...and that's what I hear when I look in my mirror.

All of us have good, and bad sides. Our struggle is to reduce the bad, cultivate the good. They have the same struggle, and they may be losing the battle to the bad side. I am sorry for them, I wish it were different, and that they were offering peace, but sadly they are not. I have no idea if they will ever respond and love you as they ought. We can only try.

Okay...SS, are you saying...taking the high road...to earn my own self-respect, to be open to what God is showing me, possibly, to really learn to do this with anyone...not take what is theirs as mine...to attempt to connect and let the results go...

Yep, you got that part.

From first CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth............

There is no reason you have to have the same faults they have. To take the high road, is to have charity. To love them and want the best for them no matter how they treat you.


SS...agreeing the product is cool...that my sister is a bad mother...that her son is spoiled...that my son is spoiled rotten...that I can't do. I need to separate those differences...agree to what truly is benign and stay silent on the stuff that isn't. To stay honest, considerate and present...is that it, SS?

I shouldn't have said it the way I did. You don't need to agree with them, but you do need to acknowledge their feelings. They have a right to their own feelings. We can listen and acknowledge someone else's feelings without agreeing with them. This is something I am working on....... "Wow, you seem to have strong feelings about that - it's really important to you, isn't it."

If they demand you agree with them, it's not healthy for you to spend much time with them. If they are demanding you acknowledge their feelings, and listen, it's Ok. Everyone wants respect. They do, and you do - your letter is a cry for respect.

What will the cost be (to you) to spend time with them?

Is it a price you ARE WILLING to pay?

Is it a price YOU ARE ABLE to pay?

Do you understand the difference?

I believe I was doing this, SS...this last year especially...felt closer and safe for them to be closer to me...guess I'm wondering how did I get here? Doesn't really negate the last year, does it? Change my intent...to do it for me, for who I am, not doing it to not be shut out...


Stephen Covey in "7 Habits" says we should first seek to understand, and THEN seek to be understood. If last year was good, look for the reasons. Try to understand them - why they are the way they are. Is it becasue they are shallow, mean, and small? Or is it because they lack knowledge, and they are afraid? I don't have these answers, and you may not, but you can get them if you listen, learn, and have charity. And BTW, I recommend "7 Habits" if you haven't read it.

Am I close?

You tell me -

You are close if you are feeling like there might be a light at the end of the tunnel.

If you feel trapped, and like you have no hope, then maybe not.


LA,
You are a wonderful person with so much going for you. Lets see - I was going to close, but maybe we can talk a little more just for background.

Jesus Christ -
His struggles.......

What was the greatest problem Jesus faced in his life?
Was it the Jewish government, wicked men, and the roman soldiers?

Or was it the battle inside his own head?

From Matt 26:

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this ccup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. ................

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.


From Luke 22:
44 And being in an aagony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

He had his struggles. The worst ones were INTERNAL.

I think ours are the same. All of us have problems, but what do we do with them?

Remember that this is a PROCESS. You can't turn a switch and have it all be OK. It's going to take time to work through it.

Maybe a lifetime.

SS

(((((LA.)))))
Sorry about your DS hope he will be ok.

Now I don’t know what are the specific issues with your parents, but they are close to 80, they will not change, I am a man of science and math, logic is my domain,
IMHO, pinpoint or summaries the problems, see which ones you can live with, which ones you can apologize for, and which ones you can change, and just get to the point,
Chare your feelings in a direct and subtle way, don’t let them read between the lines,
And make it short.

If it was me I would rather do it in person, this was your advice to me remember, people
Tend to filter the words, and read between the lines.

My 2 c.

Tony.

Yesterday, I was overwhelmed with all the responses...I believe them to be compassionate, heartfelt and messages from God. I really do.

Lizzie...your poem flattened me. Yes, I will work on reparenting my child...and I'm keeping your poem to remind me, if that's okay...beautifully written and poignant.

HB...your letter and post didn't just move me, it shoved me. I needed that, thank you.

I have decided to call them tonight, at my regular time...to reiterate the apology and be open, just open...with both feet set firmly in my own space, not theirs...no rehashing or demands...knowing they are, as Tony said, maybe set deeply in who they are, and I will respect that they are as I am, humanly vulnerable, equal and separate...and they cannot define me without my permission.

I got very lost, dear folks...and you not only pointed to the signs in front of me already, but made them glow kindly, with a lot of love, I believe...and connection. That void I've had for as long as I can recall closed a lot from your efforts, time and attention. I know it will be returned to you a thousand fold.

Rin...I will look for the good things--thank you for that reminder.

HTBH...thank you for guiding me back when I needed those questions asked, for editing and wrestling with me...clearing my ancient fog...and I will count on you to do that if I get closed up by it again, 'k?

SS...your words are now held in my heart and the forefront of my mind. I'm using them to bolster my resolve, ease my chest and I'm going to breathe them this evening when I dial that number...letting go the response and acting from love. And I do believe in this thread, I was asking you all to take this cup from me...magically...please...and I know it's mine and God holds it with me. I do. Thank you for giving that belief right back to me.

I cherish your honesty and effort very much. AmI...thank you for calling out, asking where I was...which provided me an opportunity to do just that, to get from there back to here.

LA

P.S. Alf? If you want to post, please do...I'll look for your thread and ask, in case you lost your way back here, 'k?

All the best LA.
All the best.

I'll be praying for you.

SS

Edited to add:
Let us know how it goes, and how you feel about it. Later, when you have had time to process it, and to think.
Thanks for sharing. You are much more than you sometimes think you are.

I asked DH to sit with me while I made the call...and we held hands...

My mother answered the phone and we asked each other how we were, chatted, told her about YS, and then I said I was sorry for raising my voice; and she said...

What's done is done. It's in the past.

(at that point, I smiled at DH and nodded...and he proceeded to lay down on the couch with his feet in my lap and fell asleep)

She told me about her week and health. And we ended with the weather.

As she turned the phone over to my Dad, we each said ILYs.

It was as it was before.

I believe prays are answered. I helped with waiting, pondering and examining. I was helped very much by all of you helping me to wait, ponder and examine. Sorting out my feelings, my perspective and perception.

You helped me to see what was real and what wasn't; what I wanted and why...which made all the difference tonight.

I helped by not mapping out the conversation, going through several possible scenarios and working myself up to that super sensitivity level which has been my previous downfall.

I'll keep practicing that.

And I realized, thanks to Rin, that I've stayed on MB, in part, due to my mom. She exampled connecting to other people, and does so still, at the cancer clinic, bonding and helping, from her own experience, and praying and sharing with many people.

I'm blessed to have that example.


SS, "You are much more than you sometimes think you are."

Thank you for saying that. I forget we humans can act bigger than we are today, expand into who we believe we can become and look back later, realizing we really are.

After the call, I felt a little relieved, pretty peaceful, and a bit wistful. No sorrow watering my heart.

Gratitude is swelling my throat quite a bit, posting to you all. I really know right now, I'm not alone.

Thank you.

LA

LA- That is sooo beautiful...and moving...my heart was move because I called my mom a little earlier to. I was feeling before tonight that her and I's conversation seemed a little forced, but tonight was wonderful...

We didn't speak long, but it was great...the emotions were true...and my early B-day present is gorgeous. I sure didn't know that Father's day and that call I decided to make would be a new beginning for me and FOO.

Well, Twinner, phone calls to mom at the same time...what next?

Thank you for acknowledging my post...I deleted the orginial contents because...well, I was so far off the mark with the other posts...that's mine...

...overcoming fear and jumping into the fire I created in my mind was the hardest part of FOO...

I wanted to hop in on the LA love train and give my hugs.

{{LA}}

You were there in my posts when I was down and didn't know what I wanted. You encouraged me to post about my IC (of which I've missed 3 sessions now due to the job lay-off ), and helped me to find direction.

I appreciate you for your help, and apologize if I was ever too needy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you.

((((((LA)))))

I never doubted you, I’m glad you decided to call instead of sending a letter,

Your words to me” direct is the way to connect”, strange is in it us humans we can always give a good advice for others, but when we are in the middle of the fire storm,
We forget our own words.

Good luck to you.

I wish I could say I was doing as good, my wife is back in her fog, I thought she snapped out of it 2 weeks ago, and she did, I had my wife back for one whole week, and I enjoyed
It. Oh well.

Tony.

Twin Rin,

I didn't know you deleted anything...what you posted stayed in my head...and I read about the early Bday gifts...which came at a needed time, which seems to double the love, doesn't it?

"overcoming fear and jumping into the fire I created in my mind was the hardest part of FOO..." This really summarizes me very well...thanks.

I think our merry band of super heroes we're concocting can have the group title of "Fear FOO Fighters"...whaddya think?

We might have to learn to sing, even.

Rogue,

Thank you for the hug and the explanation of why your great IC thread faded away...I didn't connect the two, so I wondered why you weren't forking over the goods anymore.

Too needy? I laughed out loud at that...that's exactly what this thread seemed to be about for me...and these people gave, anyway. Thanks for bringing that to the front of my mind, too. Your apology isn't accepted.

:P

Tony,

I really did need my words, which I learned from SS and Tru, and others, returned to me...you nailed that. The gift that they did...that YOU did...continues.

I read about the fog return...and I didn't know where to post a reply...your fear of her reading your posts...well, I'm not bright enough to write in code, I guess. Trust that there's a reason you got your W back for one week...that maybe God's hand was in there, to remind you of what you are really fighting for, that it exists and it's true.

I remember the setbacks and they were like DDays again...and what I just experienced on this thread...felt like a setback, another FOO DDay...and it wasn't. You're on a higher rung of that spiral staircase, facing the same pole, and there's a different view...remember that...and I'll return the generous favor of reminding you, when you need it, 'k? 'Cuz that's what you did for me, too, when I needed it most.

LA

LA - I found out that I may be elligible to continue my IC sessions for free because of my current financial crisis. I am going up there on Monday to find out, and hopefully I can start again this coming week. I'll update my IC post and let you know what I find out!

Ultimately, I guess it's okay to be needy sometimes. And these circumstances.. the ones that bring us into this forum.. are definitely worthy of it.

Thanks again. {{LA}}

{{{Roguester}}}

Great news...I will look for your thread when you post on it again.

Thank YOU again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Heh. I do suppose I should also give everybody an update on my situation. I'm not sure when the last time was that I did. Should I make a new post or just ressurect an old one?

Good evening LA

I’m glad you are doing better.

I’m having a really bad day she is back into her deep fog; she is not making any sense

And feel free to respond here on MB, I don’t care if she reads it I decided not to hide
Anything from her anymore, I know she read the last thread, she said that she didn’t,
I don’t care anymore, I’m on the bottom again I need to pick myself up, I told her that
I’m not done fighting for my marriage yet; I’m not done fighting.

I started a new thread couple a days ago, you can reply on it.

Thank you

Tony.

Well, that's great that it stuck in your head...I was self-conscious about it to be honest about eight or nine posts later I deleted it. You don't have to say anything...I know...my fears...

I am glad that I had a hand in the matter...strange how sometimes we feel like we're not heard but it sticks somewhere to come out later...I'll have to work on that! LOL

Rin, I will admit I was self-conscious about my posts, here, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Especially once I started reading the posts from the much wiser heads than mine that are around here ....

..... and I'm so glad that they are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ahhh, will you be my sister? You can't be the mean one though! LOL

Thank YOU...a appreciate the thought...

LA,

Sorry I’ve taken so long to respond. I lost my first response. I’m glad I could help, but you already knew this I just gave you a nudge.

I should be taking those 2 lines off very soon, maybe today. Mostly a laziness issue on my part. Things are going well FWW has been reading SAA and got to the part that lists things that need to be or are being done that show you are starting and into recovery. She read that and stated that we are in recovery and pointed these things out to me. I agreed with her that these things are being done, we are both reasonably happy with things, (can’t always be happy or there would be no goals and we would be bored), she has started saying LY and ILY. We are planning things into the future, looking forward to milestones with each other and the kids as they progress through Jr High and High School. She is still working on H&O, but getiing better at it. Soooooo I guess we are making progress. Counseling with Jennifer is once a month now, IC twice a month for FWW and monthly for me. I believe I am in a good place and most days we are both in a good place.

I hope all is well with you aaaannnnndddd Yes I am one of your many #1 FANS!

Woooooo Hoooooooooooo!

You are welcome!

WOW Eagle...I know I haven't posted to you before but I have to say that is GREAT! Pray for me that my FWH reads SAA. That would be a dream come true for me, I mean to both be living my MB rules moving towards recovery.

LA-could you pick up on my thread and advise in regards to my HS and her H, and her BF? I just want to make sure I stand my ground correctly. She should be visiting me next week, I'm not sure if she changed her mind since H and I wouldn't let her BF stay with us.

Thank you and best of continued luck to you Eagle!

LA,
If you talk again tonight, be sure to tell us how it goes.

Prayers.

SS

Thank you for remembering, SS...

I'm touched.

And yes, I plan on it...

LA

Eagle,

Thank you for your update. Warmed my heart...and I wondered, if you, like me, hang onto something hurtful...one sentence or aside...long after it applies...behind our own backs?

Those last two lines made me wonder...if we shared this...and seeing how far you've come, grown, expanded and risen...through so much...by sharing so very much...if you wanted to let go those tiny shard sentences, like I do...and if we could help each other.

And I believe there are better sentences to hold to...utterances we could choose...MrsEagle saying ILY...she wouldn't unless she meant it, truely...that's what I got from her posts...authenticity...wouldn't say it if she only suspected or sort of chose it...she's an all the way gal...out of the fog and into your arms...what a marvelous place of redemption you both are creating.

You're a blessing to MB, I believe.

LA

LA,

I believe you are right. I do hold onto things that really have impact on me good and bad. I am trying to get over these things as well and hold onto the good.

Things are getting better each day, we are working on our conversations and the way we approach them. Some success there, little by little.

Thank you for the kind words. I'll keep you updated as time marches on.

I do hope everything is getting better for you, you deserve the best as does Mr. LA and the rest of your family. Best wishes.

Eagle

Seems the place to post...to step off and be vulnerable again...

I'm full of regrets and sorrow...and anger, denial and fear...my mother died unexpectedly last Sunday...even with SS's help, and everyone else's...I feel lost...didn't break that enmeshment enough...guess now's the time...because I don't know what is right now, nor feel whole at all.

My mother was still angry with me since July...she went into the hospital on 11/15 and asked my father not to tell me. Consequences suck...and are ceaseless in life, I guess.

I called that Friday, my normal day, and Dad told me, anyway...though this was something unrelated to what she's physically been dealing with...her blood was finally in balance, had just gotten that news that Wednesday, when she began experiencing chest pains...and went by ambulance to emergency. She went into ICU for pneumonia and congestive heart failure...they were thinking the fluid was creating the failure...so they got the fluid taken care of...heavily sedated her...and she never woke up.

I'm left with a miasma of my own stuff...feels like a DDay of sorts...all about me and I KNOW it wasn't, isn't...and the process we humans have created for mourning, grieving, coping and living through loss...the funeral arrangements, visitations, calls, notifications, eulogy, family coming together...is so smart. I wrote and gave her eulogy...still desperate for redemption...and somewhere in me, I don't believe in it, I guess...that this is the deal breaker...the unredeemable...her anger, holding onto it, out of my control, is a gaping flaw in God's design.

I know it isn't..still feels like it is...

I hate regrets...regrets being what I didn't do...remorse for what I've done...and all that overlap, smearing and mixing of them...sorting them out like her closets, memorabilia and garage...where I could get my hands on those things...and not all this pain...

I made an album from pictures she had in a manilla envelope she'd wrote her name on...of her life before she came into ours...and I took it to the visitation to share...to her remaining relatives in her home area where we buried her Saturday...another act of redemption...she feared greatly not being remembered...known...brought home to me deeply, again, our human mandate, most basic purpose and deisre...to know and be known.

I don't know why I'm posting this, exactly. I'm asking not for condolences...we all grieve, lose, share and continue living...I guess I'm asking about redemption...a recheck...did I enforce a boundary against myself? Did I do the unforgiveable? Had I been there, could I have saved her, changed the outcome, keep her with me?

If you could help me see what God's trying to show me...maybe...just like when I lost my first mother...my fault, my crud (I know I am experiencing a lot of those little 8-year-old girl feelings again)...Crud was my mother's word, btw. I just noticed that. I heard her voice say it when I wrote it.

I'm not looking to fix my pain...took me two years to grieve my Aunt in '92...my first mother's sister...a daily meeting of how significantly we are in each others lives, though we live far apart...the downside of sharing...of the being known and knowing...I'm just in denial and anger and may very well be bargaining here...my tiny acts of redemption...because when I most needed to be strong, brave and true...and thought that's what I was being...I wasn't rewarded at all.

Earning love is a dead-end road. Please help me to stop going down it...to find my true amends, once and for all...

LA

My father died suddenly...on vacation..in a hotel room...

I had just started speaking to him again...

We had a very COMPLICATED relationship...

I was CRAZY for a year or so after his death...

I was functional..so not LITERALLY crazy..but I was forever changed...

In the end though, I LEARNED from it..I grew from it...

Isn't it you that recently shared that from MOURNING COMES LEARNING....

I PRAYED FOR UNDERSTANDING..as you are praying..and GOD ANSWERED...

You are a righteous woman, Loving...A "PRECIOUS" JEWEL...

You will be blessed with God's caring and grace.

HE will see you through this...

Loving, I do want to discourage you from asking "WHY"..you will not get that answer..tell yourself that "IT JUST IS"..it's a CHAPTER in your LIFE STORY...

((((LA))))
Of course you feel like a child, your mom died. And she died with so much unresolved between you. NOT your fault. From what you have written about her she was a woman who was uncomfortable w/ her emotions and didn't show her love easily.

My MIL was not an easy person to love. She blamed me for taking her son away, she was horrible to me. Consequently, since she treated me so badly, we didn't see her much. After we had our 1st child we still didn't see her much because my H didn't want our son to witness how she treated me. After she passed away a friend of hers confided to me that she was so glad MIL had apologized to me. That she often bragged to her friends about how I was such a good mother and so good for her son. MIL had never said a word to me. I was ANGRY! How dare she waste all those years and depriving my son from really knowing her. I prayed for her...that her soul find peace. It was her short coming, I was open to her and she never reached out although she apparently wanted to. The lesson I learned....don't hold back your love, don't waste time w/ anger and resentment. Feel it, acknowledge it and let it go....don't let it bring darkness into your life.

LA, you can't undo what has happened but you can release it. Use this time to grieve for your mom and for the little girl who lost her mom. When you are ready, release it. Build the bond w/ your father. He has suffered from your mother's actions as well.

Come vent here anytime. You are loved anyway!

LA -


Oh LA...my heart breaks to read this, because I've been where you are. Still am, in many ways.

As a Christian, you know the only unforgiveable act is to deny the Holy Spirit. Everything else is forgiveable. I think what you might be struggling with is how to forgive yourself, for whatever real or imagined things you did wrong.

The last sentence in my mom's note was "Forgive me for your sakes." It took a long time for me to understand the significance of that sentence. If you can't forgive another person, how can you forgive yourself? To take it to a spiritual level, if you can't forgive another person, or yourself, how can God forgive you?

What boundary do you feel you enforced against yourself? The no visitation boundary (I'm making educated guesses here)?

That boundary was to protect you, not to hurt you. Yes, not seeing your mom by your own choice undoubtedly hurt, but it protected you from her anger. Think of it kind of like doctors - sometimes to heal the patient, they have to hurt the patient.

I don't know how many times I've asked myself what I could have done differently to change the outcome of either of my parent's death. I will never know the answer to that question...no one will. It doesn't make it any easier to accept.

If you are looking for redemption, which is understandable, I would humbly suggest that a good place to find it would be within yourself first. Identify those things that you think you need redemption for, accept them as real, and then decide objectively if they are valid.

If they are, forgive yourself. Focus on the people still in your life - your DH, your sons, your father. Continue to live and act from your code. Share your feelings, your fears, your regrets with those closest to you.


No child earns the love of their parents. I know you know this. Repeat to yourself, as often as needed, "I am loved because I am who I am, and I do my best to be true to myself." Your true amends are your code. All your experiences in life, that define who you are. And more importantly, the choices you make everyday that define who you are.

Healing will come. It takes time. We're here for you.

If one good thing can come of my mom's suicide and our estrangement, it's that I can reach out and help others in a similar situation. Everything is still fresh and raw, and you're undoubtedly struggling with the total shock of both the loss and the lack of closure. I'd be happy to share with you whatever might help you, both the things I did right, and the many that I did wrong.

As you are so fond of telling many on these boards, you, LA matter. To God, to yourself, to your DH, to your sons, your father, your friends, and to us.

Hi LA -

One more thing. Something that has helped me was to write a goodbye, of sorts. Both to my dad and to my mom. Though I lost my dad over 5 years ago, and it was not unexpected, it was still hard. And that was in the context of a good relationship with him.

Anyway, if it would help you, I can post what I wrote to my dad on the 1st anniversary of his death. It was a way of healing, for me, though even now the pain is still there.

So if you think it will help you, I'll be happy to share. If not, that's fine to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((((((((((((LA)))))))))))))))))))

OH (((((LA))))).

I’m so sorry about your pain, I know you are looking for answers, I know you are blaming yourself, you know my grandmother lived with us she used to say when it’s your time to go, you will go, no body can change that, it’s written on everybody’s forehead.

I think the message that god is trying to relay to you, is simply don’t do what your mother did, don’t let anger and resentment keep you away from your loved ones.

You are the most wonderful honest and caring person I had the honor to cross roads with.
If helping all these people here is not repentance then what is.

I’m praying for you every night, you have a new addition to your family coming soon,
New innocent life, focus your love on her, I hope they live close enough to you to be part
Of her life, this will be healing for your pain.

Keep praying.

God bless your family.

Tony.

The problem with letting things go.............

Is that we sometimes feel we could have done better, and we hold it against our selves and we won't forgive US.

What are your regrets?

SS

Hi, LA.

I've been thinking about you and prayingfor you! Having neverlost a parent, I just can't imagine how hard it must be to lose your mother, twice now. I think about my mom, and the thought of losing her just breaks my heart for you.

I can't even begin to imagine what you must be feeling!

I'm definitely not the enmeshment expert. You know I still struggle with that myself, so I don't have any advice, really. But there was something that struck me in your post:
"My mother was still angry with me since July...she went into the hospital on 11/15 and asked my father not to tell me."

I saw this as two separate things. Her asking youe Dad not to call you separate from whether or not she was still angry with you.

I remember you talking about things smoothing out with your Mom since July. That she was taking your weekly phone calls and you had both come to a bit of a truce -- big steps for her, right? So why not see that: several months of a pattern, instead of just the one request not to call you, when you're looking for evidence of how angry she still was or wasn't?

And even if she was still angry and trying to punish you in some way, that doesn't mean you ARE punished, right? YOU taught ME that, remember?


You are an amazing, loving woman, and you know that you loved your mother, even when you had to have boundaries that protected you both. You acted out of love, and you continue to do so. She won't be forgotten, because you remembered her and still carry her on. There's no need for redemption from any of that.


Sending you lots of hugs and prayers and thoughts.

-AmI.

I won't presume to say what God wants to teach you, but one thought that struck me in reading your post here is that the one person who regrets your mother's decision not to call you more than you do is probably her. If she knew what lay ahead of her in those few days, she would have wanted to see you. Of that I am sure.

And I am sure that when you are reunited with her once again that she will tell you so, if such earthly concerns are even part of us in heaven.

Try to forgive her that last bit of negativity, if it was indeed that. It was her choice. It reflects nothing whatsoever on you.

Prayers and thoughts remain with you.

Tru

Thank you, everyone...I'm ready, again, to look at this...and your posts bear a lot of truth I needed to hear...thank you.

Here's my truths:

I believe I could have acted better to repair our rift...I could have sent cards, because I know she loved cards...and I did not...I mailed Thanksgiving cards the day before she died...and I did put hers into her casket...not enough...too little too late. Her love language was cards...words of appreciation, affirmation. I knew this.

I did not call the Friday before she went into the hospital...I was being petty...my parents do not call me...I call them...it was my birthday that week and I was disappointed they didn't call on it...knowing they didn't call. Again, not to my code at all...reactive and petty. I'm having a difficult time with this because of all the calls my father did make to me the day she died. My wishful child still believes in causing stuff...like, well, if you wanted them to call you, here you go.

And what caused our blowout remains, too...I missed the intimacy with my Mom, which is the very thing that caused me to get disinvited again...so that duality is tiresome, awful to wrestle...and I think it has bigger meaning in my life than I'm willing to face right now.

My amends...creating a photo album, writing her eulogy, giving it...writing notes and gifts of her stuff to others who loved her deeply...dressing in her clothes, wearing her makeup...staying conscious last week of how she wanted the world to see her...they seem like extremely weak amends.

HB...knowing you know, can feel and experience what I feel is of great comfort. Reminding me that unrelenting two-way street God designed...forgiving ourselves enables us to forgive others...and there's something in me that doesn't want to be forgiven. All the old stuff is right here, filling me up...punishing, blaming, shoulding and definitely should notting...I think this will pass, too.

And yes, I will write that letter someday...and knowing you're out there, living and loving, truly thriving, through all of this...is of great comfort to me, and I do believe your choice to reach out is a rare and wonderful blessing; you're authentic and true...and that's a guide for me. Thank you.

Tony - "I think the message that god is trying to relay to you, is simply don’t do what your mother did, don’t let anger and resentment keep you away from your loved ones."

I think these are wise words...and I am taking them into me to rest, consider, hold and remember.

SS - I've been thinking...I already mentioned some above...others are...I could have spoken...last year...I do realize I asked why she changed her mind about Christmas...I regret I accepted her lies...I chose to believe...and the next...and the next...I'm angry at myself for that, for knowing better and not doing better.

I regret not doing something big for their 35th anniversary in June...I believe I was nursing my resentment from pain and anger all year...and like Tony said, may be that this will end that for me...that deep permission I have in myself to still earn/punish...and it messes greatly with my own boundary to NOT do this...much self-anger...

It was hard at the funeral where people didn't know me, and I didn't know them...having only been back with my family the last three years...and that feels as if I had that control, and I didn't. I know I didn't. Wonder when my heart will know.

AmI--I know my mother was still angry because that's what my father said when he told me..."As you know, your mother is still angry with you, and she didn't want me to call you to tell you she was in the hospital. Please don't tell her I told you."

He'd had a recent bout with her anger...back in October, I had called and we talked, and she said my father was down the street visiting...then he emailed a few days later saying, "I know your mother told you I was in my hometown at my high school reunion" and went on to tell me of the events. I answered, thanking him for sharing, and no, that I didn't know...and that it didn't matter to me. The next call he said how mad she was at him and to not tell her what he told me. Too messy for me...I'm incompetent that way. I relate this because that was what was in my mind when he said, promise me you won't tell her...and I said, "If I am to respect her wishes and not attempt to call her, then how will she know, Dad?"

I knew it was my choice. By the time I knew, though, they had sedated her deeply, due to all the tubes and treatments...which I didn't know...so I could have attempted and did not...more regret.

I see now where we all feared her anger. I think it hurts more because I was like that in my home...and I need to remind myself, no one fears my anger now...it's mine. What a blessing to learn and know.

And no, AmI...she won't be forgotten, which I believe was her primary fear in life...

Tru--yes, I have thought of that, since my post...and I know how much I would regret that, myself...so I'll hold that thought closely, as well, when I reach across time to touch her...maybe telling HER I forgive her? Because I accept who she was, thoroughly...I do...and I know my wanting her to be different, be my way, negated a lot of celebrating who she was, as is...without defect.

My brain knows...my heart continues yearning...I fear Friday arriving...her voice was a presence in my life I cannot conceive of having again...I am angry, in denial...normal stages; still irritated I have to go through them, though.

And I'm feeling very childish...then I forgive myself...like this morning, driving her car to work through the snow, I realized I had never in my life driven my parents' cars...ever. Here I was, worrying about wrecking her car, like a teenager, as I took this automatic through snow, and felt that fear of screwing up...what I imagine I would have felt if I'd driven either of their cars nearly 30 years ago.

Another puzzling thing...she would fight like this with others...her brother and sisters...and get through, around or over it...similar to the shutting out and letting in I experienced...I wasn't a target, a singularity...just out of time for reconciling, the letting back in part...though this time, I wasn't completely shut out, either.

LA

LA,
this is a very simplified statement that covers a very complicated subject, but here goes...........

It doesn't matter what others do, it only matters what I do.


Comments?

SS

Yes...all that I didn't do...I have no opportunity for worthy amends...can't undo...what I didn't do...still matters.

I don't know how to amend death.

I now doubt myself greatly...not even sure of my own truths...and yet...I think in time, I'll have them back...realize they didn't leave...and I'm not happy with unsurety (I know you knew that)...

Okay...so what matters is what I do now...with what I know now...is that correct? And my boundary enforcement (not visiting in person this year) wasn't vengeful...it was protective and honest...and I did know it might be a permanent decision, given their age and health...for either...however...I've come to realize that though I say that, I didn't believe it. I really didn't. There was next year, for me...in January, for Dad's birthday...like a private wish too precious to share...even with myself...

Crud.

Okay...so I failed myself...so I have domain to forgive myself...own what I did not do, promise not to not do those things again, and live by it...forgive myself...and grow, anyway?

LA

Crud.

That pretty much covers it - and I know it hurts, but It made me laugh.

Sorry. I'm not making light of you - but if we can't laugh sometimes.......... well, recovery would be a whole lot more difficult.

I wasn't looking for a right, or a wrong answer. Sometimes it's good for us to think things through for ourselves.

Have you noticed we make often make little time for that?

Can we review some things about life?

I don't know how to amend death.

You don't have to amend death. Your mom hasn't ceased to exist, she has just gone on to another place. You'll see her again. It's for you to do your best at changing and improving. Since in the end, we can't change or improve anyone else, we just have to take care of doing it for ourselves.

Yes, grow anyway.

We need to think about our mistakes to avoid repeating them. Some guilt is necessary and good for us. I think anyone who has children knows what I mean.

Our time though, is spend in the NOW. Not in the past of the future. Most of our effort needs to go to living the right way NOW.

I would guess you have heard the story of the women who walked along the seashore and wrote her troubles the sand. Before long, the tide came in, and washed the writing away. She had the picture of it in her memory to guide her, but the sand was clean.

Your sand is clean. What you wrote yesterday will (and should) guide you today, but the sand is clean. Write again today, it will be clean again tomorrow.

Remember this is not real life. This is a test. Real life is where your mom is living now. Perhaps she passed her test, perhaps she did not. It's not for me to say.

The test is different for each of us. It has to be that way.
Don't get discouraged, THIS IS THE CHANCE OF A LIFETIME.

What greater blessing could we be given?

SS

SS,

You laughing is worth the crud. LOL. I was happy to have gotten laughs (appropriate ones) when I gave her eulogy.

And what you said...my sand is clean...and mind where I'm dwelling...in what I did not do in the past...is what I needed to hear...and I heard you.

Now is where I live...so much of it slipped through making the photo albums, remembering her life...I went into the past and needed your hand to pull me back into today.

Thank you.

I've been going into fantasy, again, in my mind...thinking the what ifs and if onlys...I picture my sister and I singing at the services...and we didn't...and I didn't even ask...and I know when I do this fantasy trip, I'm not in the present, and not in the presence of reality.

Your hand on my shoulder and everyone's hugs and words nudge me back to what is real...and that is my chance of a lifetime...I am very blessed, undeservedly and unconditionally...now. Right now.

The two songs I'd wished we'd sang were...Remember Me and Come to Jesus...so I'll teach those to my children to sing at mine...together.

Thank you, SS...

LA

Oh, you are ambitious!

I think if you'd been able to sing either of those songs without turning into a big puddle of mush, you would be a walking miracle (even more than you already are).....

I can hardly even listen to "remember me" without disolving into tears.

We'd have to build a shrine if you'd been able to sing it at your mother's services.

Well, AmI...I wrote and read the eulogy...so yes, I do believe I could've done it...had to pause, go slowly...gotter done.

And my sister plays guitar and used to sing at her church...except she paled and sweated at the thought of doing the eulogy. I asked both my father and her for what they wanted added in...got two sentences.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

See, in these last three years of doing my firsts, facing my fears...like doing stand up...God helped me prepare for this...no shrine required.

I relied on love and acceptance from those in attendance...which is what I discovered from all the strangers at my first stand up...at the Comedy Works...and since them, that's what I see out there...funny, loving, laughing people...they came up and hugged me and I knew...God's creations are marvelous.

And yes, I trembled, too...whole body...which is where the tears are streaming inside while I read...and I forgave myself and kept going...and I would if I sang, too...wrong notes and all...I always do the low harmonies, so I my voice doesn't crack.

LOL

And yes, I am a puddle of mush a lot...and you know what? My family and coworkers have gotten used to it...they don't run away in screaming horror anymore. Cool.

Heehee.

I cry and stop and cry...and yes, Remember Me, ever since it came out, I cry...I just thought it so appropriate for my mom, who feared so greatly not being remembered...and was a child of wonder, of sunday school, a leader, a teacher...a reacher...and hearing it tonight on the way home from work, I remembered...I want her bible.

So all those years of depression had a benefit...temporary tears...not locked within them and not without them...in the middle...and right behind them...laughter.

And to share with you Ami...I had a thought...I've been without KLove for over a year...and as a consequence of my mother's passing, I get it back...because I'm driving her car...God really does open a window when a door closes. And yeah, I cried over that, too.

Happy tears.

Thank you for being with me...all the way through. You have a gift for that...please hug yourself for me.

LA

LA,
What did you write in the sand today?

SS

I told stories about my mother to coworkers...as they arose...from an apple pie incident to morning gories...and I was being nostalgic, not attacking...not whining...I was sharing...like a celebration...

I felt her this morning, at work, with her hand on my shoulder...and a smile.

Right now...I am being, not doing. I'm remembering but not living there...relating, not self-berating...and am making sure she's remembered...passed on...in my actions, words and thoughts

Now, I'm worrying...I first perceive your questions as tests and I'm failing to grasp...and then I think and revise...and say what I say...that's what I am doing...and I wrote:

I'm afraid to be okay without my mother.

LA

Right now...I am being, not doing. I'm remembering but not living there...relating, not self-berating...and am making sure she's remembered...passed on...in my actions, words and thoughts

You are processing - I'm just encouraging you in doing it.


I'm afraid to be okay without my mother.

She's still there. It's not like you'll never see her again.

Do your best, so when you see her next, you'll look forward to the greeting

Death is part of life. It's natural. We call it death, but it's more like they are leaving on a journey, and we are joining them later. Someone has to stay and work for a while, then we get to go too.

We are often afraid of the unknown.

When we don't know if they will be happy, or angry with us.

When we want aproval, but don't know if we will get it.

When we think we could have done better, but we didn't.

It's good to be honest with others, but even more so with ourselves.

Admit your mistakes.

Also admit you are improving, getting better, have come a long way.

Take joy in the journey.

SS

Also - since this is your thread -

How is everything else?
Are you OK otherwise?

Getting enough exercise?
Eating your veggies?
Laughing when SS teases you?

I think you'll be OK. I really do.

And you?

Ss

Everything else is and has been wonderful...first grandbaby due in a little over two weeks...a girl...my sons are wonderful and I enjoy them each moment I get with them.

My DH is terrific...a comfort in presence, word and deed.

I'm eating (drinking) my veggies, grapefruit juice, eating apples...struggling not to console through chocolate...and am now aware and rather self-congratulatory that my laughter hasn't stopped throughout...at SS's attempts or life just happening the way it does...

I think I'm okay right now...and then I'm not okay when I find I'm rejecting reality again...and then I'm okay again...just the loop...and I feel anchored through it all by everyone at MB and in my real life...I'm more aware of the love and concern at work, at home, my friends and our connection.

As for exercise...I'm doing Scarlett with my tomorrows...so tonight, I'll move my gym gear to my mother's car and have no excuse for tomorrow after work...no more Friday call times...Dad says call whenever I want...when I think of him and have a phone handy...newness of that is a bit scary--I'll call, anyway.

LA

Everything else is and has been wonderful...first grandbaby due in a little over two weeks...a girl...my sons are wonderful and I enjoy them each moment I get with them.

Grandbabies are SOOOOO FUN!!!!!
You'll love it.

My DH is terrific...a comfort in presence, word and deed.

Check !

I'm eating (drinking) my veggies, grapefruit juice, eating apples...struggling not to console through chocolate...

SS reads - as he reads, he slowly closes the drawer that has the dark choclate bar half open inside.
Sloooooowly, don't let LA see me close it. Ah - it's closed, and I don't think she noticed.

Mental note - buy grapefruit on the way home tonight.
Apples? Check !
Already have some.

and am now aware and rather self-congratulatory that my laughter hasn't stopped throughout...at SS's attempts or life just happening the way it does...

One thing about life -
Almost everything is easier to take when you are laughing.
Even no chocolate is easier to take.


I think I'm okay right now...and then I'm not okay when I find I'm rejecting reality again...and then I'm okay again...just the loop...and I feel anchored through it all by everyone at MB and in my real life...I'm more aware of the love and concern at work, at home, my friends and our connection.

You sound better now than you did yesterday. I'll take that as progress.

As for exercise...I'm doing Scarlett with my tomorrows...so tonight, I'll move my gym gear to my mother's car and have no excuse for tomorrow after work..

Even though we have 6 granbabies now, I still don't get enough exercise. I'm working on it though. I really am. Chocolate helps, so maybe I'll have just a small piece.

Maybe just a little bigger small piece.

.no more Friday call times...Dad says call whenever I want...when I think of him and have a phone handy...newness of that is a bit scary--I'll call, anyway.

The times.......... they are a changin.......

Veggies and exercise are important, but I was teasing you. I trust you'll do well. One day at a time.

Isn't it good we don't have to live it all at once?

Enjoy that baby -

SS

Hi LA,

It's Friday.. I'm thinking of you, wondering how you're doing today.

In your honor, I'm going to eat some dark chocolate and go call my mom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugs!
HTBH

ROFLMAO, SS & HTBH!

Dark chocolate...:::making Homer Simpson sounds and drooling:::

My favorite.

I did move my gym gear...so I've got that going for me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((HTBH)))) I swear you're written sunshine, woman. Thank you for your thoughts and actions...connecting...connecting...

I still haven't returned or renewed Passionate Marriage yet...so I'll do that now, with you in my sights...

And eat my salad. LOL.

I can't get sick of it because of Paul Newman's dressings...keeps the variety going even when it's just lettuce and grape tomatoes...oh, and croutons.

Thank you for being here...and SS? I did see ya do that...no judgment...I savored it vicariously...and gained yet another pound...could those be vicarious, too? Where's the justice?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Awwww, LA, you're MY sunshine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm just oozing love and joy today -- I hope you can feel it all the way in Colorado!

Hope that salad was good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL. I'm having spinach with my lunch today, so it's not just chocolate for me, either. I'm still eating my veggies, so I can get rid of these vicarious pounds just in time for the Christmas pounds to arrive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

((((LA))))

LA, it sounds like you're giving things time to go back into their true perspective. Glad to hear you're doing so great with the self-care, nourishing yourself with veggies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your actions weren't good or bad, they just were, right? Your intent was pure, you know because you checked it.

Did your son in the service get to come back to see the family for the funeral?

You are truly an inspiration, LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

((((LA))))

LA, when I woke up this morning, had a thought I wanted to share with you.... Your intent in not visiting, was to set the stage for a more loving relationship, free from all these ideas like guilt and shame. You let go of the outcome.

This is something that we do, let go of the outome, and then take it back when we don't trust HP with it anymore. How can you trust Him enough to put it back into His hands? Why are you afraid to trust HP with the outcome? Do you feel that if you had done differently, you could have cured your mother, somehow made her able to be more open or loving to you? Where does your power lie?

How is your father?

HTBH,

Out with the old pounds and in with the new? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


EO,

I meant to answer your question on your thread...he's been back home since May of this year...he's now in the National Guard and working two jobs...he's the one who will be a father in another two weeks or so.

And I was alone for the services...my children did not know my mother...they do know my father. He's visited them for their graduations, reunions and once when he had a trip to my city.

And you're right...I did let go the outcome, only I did so with one hand behind my back, clutching a remnant of outcome and squeezing the heck out of it...which was my best surrender for years...two palms up, in front of me, is what I aspire to...thank you very much for helping me to see that yes, my intent was pure.

My father had another heart attack yesterday afternoon. I became very angry with God...my two palms were fists...and then I remembered to pray...and be grateful...

My sister was with him. She called 911 right away and he's in recovery after getting another stint put in place...the doctors said they would more aggressively monitor his heart and condition...he should be going home tomorrow or Monday.

I've been thinking about flying back down after Phoenix Rain makes her arrival...and spending Christmas there and the week after to take care of him...maybe taking one of the boys...my thinking is this would give my sister a chance to go home to her husband...I don't know yet what my Dad might want. Guess I'll stay in touch and ease my way along...

A lot of people have been sharing with me the loss of their own mothers...one woman said yesterday, "Yep, that's one you just don't ever get over." I love how people share when I listen...my suppliers, who I consider my customers (and my company is their customer), called and wouldn't leave voicemail...called back to get me in person...to express her concern. I was really touched...and she handed me a marvelous perspective which I've chosen to take...

Her mother died slowly, agonizingly, through cancer...and she was with her mother every step of the way...and for mom to have gone so fast, so unexpectedly, was a blessing...she got to die in her sleep, essentially.

God works through so many humans...here and everywhere...the care and concern people feel, though they don't really know me, is a comfort I can't describe. I think that is part of respect...connecting, sharing and honoring each other...if I listen and choose to see.

I'm praying right now that God doesn't think I'm stronger than I really am.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

((((LA))))

I'm feeling much love for you today.

Hi LA,

I've been reading through this thread, thinking and praying for you.

Thankyou for sharing you.

I don't have any words of wisdom to share w/ you, only my love to offer and send to you.

((((((LA)))))))

~ Marsh

I didn't know your son has been home since May, and with a new grandbaby on the way, sounds beautiful!

I am so sorry about your Dad. He's in my prayers, too. I'm glad you remember your intent, too. Remeber, that you can hold onto the outcome as much as you need, until you are ready to let it go, palms up. Does letting it go feel like a rejection of her? It's not, though, is it?

Amazing how your tragedy inspires other to share, and to heal that much more soundly in the sharing. (((LA)))

I'm sorry, EO, about not posting that on your thread back in May.

I know I posted my joy of his return a lot...and yes, I assumed you knew. Ack.

Same with the grandbaby...Phoenix Rain...can't wait for her appearance...

Thank you for your prayers...my Dad is doing better...might be released tomorrow...he sounded loads better this morning...and I'm focusing on accepting that today, he's there...I can reach him...

Yesterday morning, he was deeply groggy from lack of sleep...and God handed me a wallop...because my Dad began asking questions where we'd left off, a few days ago...I perceived that to mean that his love, his care, was deeper than mental aerobics...I felt his concern, heard his love language, all the way through me...and for maybe the first time in my life, I really got he loves me. He really does. I have wrestled not accepting it...remains true.

I was really angry Friday with God because my chosen perspective was that here was my chance to have a real relationship with him and he's going to be gone, too...and God reaches down and does his miracle and boom...I get to know I already have a wonderful relationship with my father.

Three inches to the left. Thankfully, God is patient, kind, endures all things...I can take that to the bank.

You're part of that, EO...and Mimi, too...bringing around our own words, the reminders, when we need it most...expressing love does ripple...and sometimes it has to hit the back of my head a few laps to get it...and I'm grateful I got it.

No, I don't feel letting go is any rejection of her or our relationship. I feel her with me a lot...and it's not judging or accusing...it's just love...full and real...no approval required. Just is...and I'm healing.

The more I accept I'll cry and then stop; I'll mourn a little more and then act in the present, the more accepted and acknowledged I feel...neutralizes my own self-criticism and embraces, not judges.

I'm sure I'll slip and stand again...and I'm glad I come here and share because that's my own bravery, and I am rewarded through all of you. Thank you.

LA

LA -


My wonderful friend, God doesn't think you're stronger than you are. God knows you are stronger than you think you are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll keep you and your father in my prayers.

ROFLMAO, HB...

Okay...good catch. LOL! Thank you!

Of course, helps to know he loves me, and he's doing better.

Heehee.

If my dad's in your prayers, I can relax, because I believe your prayers are powerful.

Thank you for thinking of me...reading me...

LA

"God knows you are stronger than you think you are "

Ohhh, I really like this!!

You have such great minds posting to you here that I feel pretty inadequate trying to offer any advice .... but I'm reading and thinking of you.

And am still stunned by the whole comedy works thing .... did not know that about you and am now a whole new level of impressed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

LA,

Can we have an update on your father?

~ Marsh

Ahhh...MM...thank you for asking. I'll post it on my thread.

AmI? I saw an angel in the sky at sunset on my drive home...the cloud formation (for those who may rightly believe I've lost my handle on reality)...

LA

Oh, wait...this is my thread.

ROFLMAO

I saw AmI's name as the originator and thought...oh, she's updated.

ROFLMAO...I tickle myself. I really do.

Okay...so Dad got home from the hospital on Monday afternoon...and had a secondary heart attack at 3:30am the next morning...

Back to ER...

for another 14 hours.

Then to the cardiac unit..severe pain going down his left arm, and then his right one...finally today, the Catheter Lab people went in and found the stint had closed and removed it. My sister says that they made a small passage in his artery for blood flow to go through and other veins should develop around it and blood flow should improve.

In four weeks they will replace the pacemaker with a defibrillator. That's it. The docs believe meds will do the rest.

I'm in limbo...no idea because I didn't go into the medical profession. And my middle son isn't through college fast enough...wrong choices. He should have started at 10.

:}

I don't know...I think I'm going down the week of Christmas...maybe sooner...I dunno.

More prayers, I believe. I'm a little lost. He sounded good Monday morning, when the blood flow was great...now, I don't know. Did I mention I don't like indecision in myself?

LA

LMAO!!!

You tickle me too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Sounds like they found the problem and will be able to solve it w/o too much problems.

That's good.

I'll continue to keep you both in my prayers.

~ Marsh

Thanks for your perspective...I don't have that one.

They are saying that things are the way they were before he had his heart attack last week...except, and I forgot to mention, that he has a defibrillator belt around his chest at all times...until the switch.

So...you've probably got the better perspective. My fear skews mine...I'm craving fast solutions...instant security. Thanks for asking so I can see that. See? I need to be in your prayers, too...very much so. Ask for clarity for me, 'k?

I'm muddled. And I don't do muddled well.

(((MM)))

LA

Maybe I'm unclear too...

I assumed he had had a stint put in BEFORE he had had his first heart attack...and b/c it had closed that was the cause for both heart attacks.

But, now I'm thinking they just put in the stint AFTER his first heart attack and that it failed...and they had to remove it. Is that what happened?

So, since the stint didn't work they 'made a small passage in his artery for blood flow to go through and other veins' to improve the blood flow. This is a change from his first heart attack, right?

In the meantime they're going to treat him w/ meds...(blood thinners and other drugs) until he is ready to get the defibrillator in, right?

Are they going to let him come home for the next four weeks?

~ Marsh

I don't have any advice, but I can do the prayers part! You're always in 'em anyway.

((((LA))))

You got it MM...they put the stint in after his first one last Friday...which is his second one this year...they put stints (two, I think) back in January. He loves stints. This is the first one to turn on him (my interpretation).

So, yes, he's back to the way he was before his first one...and he was on medications prior to it, as well. I know they are changing those...Dad's unclear on all of them, only that they are expensive.

Lemonman...where are you? LOL (He's a doc and can put medical theory into really easy to understand words.)

They are most likely sending him home today...they don't keep him long.

I'm surprised at their choices given he just lost his spouse of 35 years...there is financial change, emotional upheaval (which is subtle by absence...something I'm sure he's realizing freshly, again and again)...facing taking care of himself...like cooking, cleaning...he's a yard man kinda guy...lots of change, all at once.

High stress, manifesting in physical changes...and Mom was his diet guardian.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She took great care of her man.

Soooo...I don't think my fears are unfounded...I suspect more that what they are choosing for his treatment is based more on his age (78) than on fixing...and I fear they are not being as honest about their assessment as they could be.

My stuff.

Thanks for clarifying, MM...you're getting really good at that, did you notice? Any self-hugs lately?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Give yourself one from me, too, 'k?

And AmI...your prayers are marvelous. Thank you.

LA

I think I've got it now.

I will continue to keep you both in my prayers.

I understand your fears.

Thanks for the hugs, LA...sending some to you as well...

(((((((LA)))))))


~ Marsh

Good Morning! I just read about your dad and wanted to let you know that we will be praying for you and your family during your time of need!

(((((LA)))))

I miss you sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much! Just because you ARE you!

Oh, thank you, Rin...feels great to be missed by YOU...

I called my father on the way to work...and I now understand that they used balloons to open up the passage...and I am proud I was brave...I said...

So, they eyed your heart and all its ways...what about your head?

(Yeah, you can see why I got disowned a few times)...

And he said, "No, they haven't sent in a shrink."

"Well, I see them addressing the results...without addressing your stress."

"They can't do anything about that."

"Sure they can! Much the same way...take a close look, share with a close ear...grief counseling."

"I'll call my pastor and see what program he's got for that."

"Maybe weekly visits...would you like that?"

"Sure."

:::deep sigh:::

Doesn't look brave...I was virtually trembling when I spoke up. All me...not him.

He can't get comfortable in his bed...he hurts from the holes they had to poke in him in different places to get to see his heart.

LA

Oh LA,
My dad is 77, I identify.

A few years ago, when I was still young I said something like "Isn't it good that we are all married, and doing reasonably well, and you can quit worrying about us?"

Dad replied "I worried about you when you were small, I worry about you now, I'll worry about you until I die, and after I die, I'll still worry about you."

I think I see now what he meant, and I'm glad. I'll miss him too, but I know he was right. He'll still be there and be mindful of us.

I'll pray for your dad. You might need it more though, so I'll pray for you too. It sounds like he is stressed because he doesn't know how to process things.

I think you are stressed because you won't quit processing them. LOL.

Laugh today.............. It helps.

SS

Hi LA,

I haven't seen you around the last couple of days....

I hope everything's OK.

~ Marsh

Thank you for the check-in, MM...

We have a granddaughter!! 36 hours of labor...and now, a darling tiny being, added to our family!

My DDIL did it all without drugs (okay, a tiny bit in the middle and then decided no to any more) and hearing her took me back to my own son's birth (her husband) because he took 36 hours to deliver...

And my DH and YS were there, too..along with nine others...DDIL has a fan club, too...and I came home last night and slept for ten hours.

LOL

Precious days...I'm leaving for work now and will be back.

LA

Congratulations LA!!

Your sweet spirit carries on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have I told you lately, how much your wisdom has meant to me and my own personal growth? {{{{{LA}}}}

YEAH! That is SOOOO wonderful! Enjoy!

I've missed your words of wisdon!

Oh, all the cute and frilly little things! I had my OS the same way...LOL...24 1/2 hours...

WOW...I was sooooo tired...I asked not to hold him immediately after...LOL...I let them clean him up first...

Well, worth all the work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Congratulations, LA!!!

I'm so happy for you!

Finally a little girl to cherish!!

~ Marsh

MM -- that's what my DIL said when she was holding Phoenix...and I said, "I already have a wonderful daughter" and kissed her forehead.

Thank you 10S...I appreciate, and yes, enjoyed hearing I matter...thank you. As for the spirit...I've been thinking this is like getting to love my mom again...from the beginning...I'm hoping the love and attention I can give to my GD will help in recovering from missing my mom.

SS - My Dad is stable for now...I'm going back down to see him the day after Christmas...was thinking of asking DIL if she wanted to go with...and his great granddaughter. I think that might be a pipedream right now...but his bday is in late January. Maybe then.

Or maybe the first week of January...when he has his pacemaker exchanged for an internal defibrillator...

So many chances to be there...hard for me to pick and choose.

I'm very, very blessed...by all of you, and your prayers, thoughts and wishes for me. Thank you.

And I'm very grateful my DH was there, with me, through all of it...and with his son, delighted over his granddaughter...recovering our marriage leads to many, many blessings.

LA

LA, Just took a look at your thread to catch up on your situation.

{{{{{LA}}}}}

Hugs and prayers for you.

I lost my dad 10-plus years ago, and my mother is not doing well in assisted living. I'm flying to see her today, as I do every few weeks for a day, and my sister (who lives near her) and I will go through her "care conference" with her. She's been sleeping in her chair, we learned yesterday, because she can't breathe lying down, so now she needs a hospital bed ASAP.

I am sorry for your loss, and sorry for your dad's crisis! I really appreciate your willingness to share your life and wisdom here.

Oh, LA!!!!

Congratulations, Grandma!!
What a lucky little girl to come into the world and already have such a big fan club! She's going to be well loved.

I'm so very happy for you and your family!! It's a great time of year to get to celebrate a precious new addition ... the ultimate Christmas present!

AmI.

Hi LA -

Congratulations! I'm many years away from grandparent status myself (I better be, at least. I told our son the other night that if he gets a girl pregnant before he's married, he'd better tell me first and let me break the news to MP. He didn't get it...)

36 hours?!? Ouch. I think my mom was in labor for 12 hours with me. I'm not sure. I know I was there, but I have no memory of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MP was in labor for 6 hours with DS12, and only 4 with DD4. Yes, many friends and family were jealous to hear that. (I believe one friend, who has 3 kids, said "I hate her.")

(Though MP took the epedural-thingy both times...good thing too, 'cause when DD was born she about shattered the bones in my left hand during one of her contractions before the injection...)

Anyway, congrats and enjoy your new granddaughter. And remember (from what I've been told at least), the great thing about grandkids is that you can spoil them rotten and then give them back to their parents <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA:

I have just read your thread and wanted to send you some ((((((HUGS)))))

I am sorry to hear of the death of your mother. You state that you feel that you never reconnected to her. You did. This thread shows you how you did. That phone call on Aug 26, started it all. And if you called weekly after that, you are LovingAnyway and you did good.

Your Dad? Go visit him You will never regret going and he will never forget. Even if you have to make the same trip again ten times in the next ten years...

And the GD? Cool!

And by the way, what is FOO? I checked most of the lists and didn't see that one.

I truly enjoyed reading your thread, and the posts you made to others all over this site. You make it great here. And to read your story, I am truly in awe of you.

LG

Thank you! LL, AmI, HB...AND (((Rindermama))))...

HB...you gotta earn your grandpa wings...you're doing so now...and I love God's design that we get another chance to hold, kiss on and cuddle a baby...and an infant...a toddler...a child...just to about there.

LOL

Okay, so the rest, too.

And I get to do so now, being who I really am...rather than the first time around.

HB--I was a hand-crusher, too...so I taught my DIL the open-palm way...and she did it beautifully!

LG - Thank you for your congrats and condolences...and yes, I did my part and had to respect her choices...and I felt her with me yesterday...and I've been wearing her clothes, and saying what I wanted to say, and grieving a little every day. And I've meant to say, I love your sigline...it fits my life very well...until now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your congrats, love and support.

LA

Congratulations, LA!!! Phoenix is so lucky to have you for a grandma! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, Happy

LA, Not much to add, just wanted to say congratulations again, and best wishes with Baby!

Hi LA,

It's Friday again... Thinking of you, my dear!

I just emailed my mom and now I'm wondering how the heck I managed to end up without any dark chocolate in the house. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Got to do something about that....

Hugs!
Happy

How was the weekend LA?
What's the latest?

SS

Hiya EO & HTBH! EO, share the dark chocolate with HTBH...she's being brave and needs to rot her teeth.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SS...Looks like I'll be heading back to Dad's house New Year's Eve...hopefully, for ten days or so...pending my boss's approval. I hope to be there for the pacemaker/defibrillator switcheroo...and this will be just me and him time, since my sis will be going back to her house in another state.

I've had some more down and up times...I reached out and called my parents' neighbor and connected that way...which was lovely for me...I miss my mother's voice something awful...she understood that. She's generous that way.

I'm asking for what I think I need and getting through...my H and I did our communication exercise, which reconnects us, so there was that relief and intimacy.

I'm restraining myself mightily from moving into my son and DIL's apartment and living in the nursery.

LOL

I'll get to see all of my own family at Christmas Eve...and I love that...look forward to it.

No change for Dad...sounds like he's sleeping a lot, not taking walks...had a doc appt he didn't tell me about (nor did my sister)...so I really don't know about how he's feeling...I plan on finding out in person.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for asking and caring and being here, SS.

LA

LA,

I've been thinking so much about you and your dad and your new grand-baby. I'm glad that you're going down to spend some time with him. And I can just imagine you camped out in the baby's nursery.

I'm holding you to your promise to do the triathlon with me this year .... I'm going to start working up to it early this time -- in January. Wanna cyber-train with me? It's my New Year's resolution. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> http://danskin.com/triathlon.html


-AmI.

SS,

Hope you see this. Thank you for asking about me.

I thought this thread was appropriate...has AmI's request to run the triathalon with her...and we did. Mission Accomplished. She's as amazing and wonderful in person, btw. So is her family.

So, that's news.

I was thinking about you, SS, eight days ago...I really was. I've been grieving my mother in fits and starts (one of her old expressions I took to mean, erratically on and off)...and I thought it was this time last year, which was hitting me hardest, when I did the unthinkable. Since you asked and I remembered...having pulled up this thread...well, I am off by a whole month.

Feels like a relief. And a little fantasy-leaning...because recently I've been allowing myself to play the what-if game (from decades of permissions)...where I roll back time to Christmas of 2005 and my family flies down to Houston, stays at a local hotel, rents a car (entire package of course), and hopes to get an invite to Christmas for a couple of hours...and in the mean time, plays together, anyway.

I didn't do it, SS. Last chance at family Christmas and there I went again, into little darn girlhood, where because they take back the invite, I don't do my own thing, from my own reasons...holding true to my boundaries.

Didn't occur to me at the time it was an option...only in hindsight. So, the grieving continues.

My relationship with my father is all new, btw. He calls, emails...even came out for my MS's college graduation. He got to meet his great-granddaughter. I'm really blessed. Incredibly. So different, all this...

And we're all together...my family. We're healthy...growing, staying connected (with interruptions), and right here, right now. Got to take all my sons (and DIL and GD) to Harry Potter at the drive-in. Didn't realize it was my OS's first drive-in, ever.

How 'bout that? He was in Iraq when we first took the boys.

Very blessed.

Funny thing happened on the day of the triathalon...my home computer died, instead of me.

My internal harddrive took quite a carthasis, though. The medal says, "The woman who starts this race is not the one who finishes it." I will attest to that in all my metaphorical glory...and yeah, I'll blush deeply, if they were referring to those relay teams.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I still seek your soothing words, your keen clarity and your generous spirit, SS. I learned from other bumps in the road, though, here on MB...and those have been huge for me. I'm still at it...this growing and knowing experience.

Glad you're here, also. You could share how all your kids are doing...where was your last three day get away with your loving wife...and when your triathalon is scheduled...if you please.

LA

Bumping for SS......


And very glad that it was the computer that crashed on tri-day, and not YOU! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> YOU did awesome!!!

Now I have to wipe the water off my computer screen that I spit there when I finally got the relay team comment. I don't think I've actually laughed out loud THAT hard at something on the computer in a looooong time!!

You are way too witty.

-A

Thanks AMI !

SS

I thought this thread was appropriate...has AmI's request to run the triathalon with her...and we did. Mission Accomplished. She's as amazing and wonderful in person, btw. So is her family.

All of the people I have met from MB are wonderful people. Some of them don't know that yet, but they are.
A triathlon is quite an accomplishment. That should help you both in lots of ways, not just your resting heart rate. I suspect you already know all about how it helps.


I was thinking about you, SS, eight days ago...I really was. I've been grieving my mother in fits and starts (one of her old expressions I took to mean, erratically on and off)...and I thought it was this time last year, which was hitting me hardest, when I did the unthinkable. Since you asked and I remembered...having pulled up this thread...well, I am off by a whole month.

If I spent as much time on MB as I would like it would detract from family time, and probably prevent me from making a living. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
So, I don't keep up on everyone as well as I would like to.
I see your posts from time to time, and It looks like you are making progress, but I wondered HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR PROGRESS.

Feels like a relief. And a little fantasy-leaning...because recently I've been allowing myself to play the what-if game (from decades of permissions)...where I roll back time to Christmas of 2005 and my family flies down to Houston, stays at a local hotel, rents a car (entire package of course), and hopes to get an invite to Christmas for a couple of hours...and in the mean time, plays together, anyway.

"What If" is good if we can use it to change our future actions so as to overcome the regrets of the past. It doesn't work very well as therapy though. (Smile) Sometimes it makes things worse.

I didn't do it, SS. Last chance at family Christmas and there I went again, into little darn girlhood, where because they take back the invite, I don't do my own thing, from my own reasons...holding true to my boundaries.

It's hard to know what to do in these situations when you are in the middle of them. Sometimes we don't understand until much later. I don't know any way around that, because life, and it's lessons are connected to time, and it's limitations. It works how it works, and we can't cut corners and get life's lessons without going through life's experiences.

Didn't occur to me at the time it was an option...only in hindsight. So, the grieving continues.

You already know, so what I am saying is only a review. I hope it helps some though.
I am learning that we really can choose happiness in the midst of chaos created by others. It's something that takes place inside of us, not outside. It is a skill that can be learned, and practice helps.

My relationship with my father is all new, btw. He calls, emails...even came out for my MS's college graduation. He got to meet his great-granddaughter. I'm really blessed. Incredibly. So different, all this...

It sounds like his feelings were being poisoned. I hope he has a full recovery. I wonder if she will ever recover.

And we're all together...my family. We're healthy...growing, staying connected (with interruptions), and right here, right now. Got to take all my sons (and DIL and GD) to Harry Potter at the drive-in. Didn't realize it was my OS's first drive-in, ever.

Isn't it interesting how things invoke memories in us. We no longer have a drive in near us - they are all gone. The memories flood back though, and I can see our car, parked there in line with all the others.

It is good that your family is staying connected, and doing (reasonably) well. I think this is probably one of the things we use to measure our lives. Probably a good gauge in many ways.


Very blessed.

Is faith in yourself one of your blessings? Is it increasing?

Funny thing happened on the day of the triathalon...my home computer died, instead of me.

You were expecting a different outcome, where your computer lived, but you did not? (LOL)

I understand that training can do that to a person.

My internal harddrive took quite a carthasis, though. The medal says, "The woman who starts this race is not the one who finishes it." I will attest to that in all my metaphorical glory...and yeah, I'll blush deeply, if they were referring to those relay teams.

No, you have it right, and you know it. Aren't they interesting........... the lessons we learn about ourselves?

I still seek your soothing words, your keen clarity and your generous spirit, SS. I learned from other bumps in the road, though, here on MB...and those have been huge for me. I'm still at it...this growing and knowing experience.

I wish I felt as wise as some people make me out to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
My self image is that of a pretty regular guy. I'm still at it too. Growing, and learning are what we are supposed to be doing, so that is good for all of us. It's hard to spend time on MB, and not learn.

grow (gro) v. grew (groo), grown (gron), grow·ing, grows. --intr. 1. To increase in size by a natural process. 2.a. To expand; gain: The business grew under new management. b. To increase in amount or degree; intensify: The suspense grew. 3. To develop and reach maturity. 4. To be capable of growth; thrive: Some plants grow in deep shade. 5. To become attached by or as if by the process of growth: tree trunks that had grown together. 6. To come into existence from a source; spring up: love that grew from friendship. 7. To come to be by a gradual process or by degrees; become: grow angry; grow closer. --tr. 1. To cause to grow; raise: grow tulips. 2. To allow (something) to develop or increase by a natural process: grow a beard. --phrasal verbs. grow into. 1. To develop so as to become: A boy grows into a man. 2. To develop or change so as to fit: She grew into her job. He grew into the relationship slowly. grow on or grow upon. 1. To become gradually more evident to: A feeling of distrust grew on me. 2. To become gradually more pleasurable or acceptable to: a taste that grows on a person. grow up. To become an adult.

Gives us some interesting things to think about -
I think the growing you are doing looks good on you. God can do a lot with anyone who is willing to accept his help, and direction.

Glad you're here, also. You could share how all your kids are doing...where was your last three day get away with your loving wife...and when your triathalon is scheduled...if you please.

Well.......... we have eight children, so that would take days to type out. I'll do the short version.

We have four boys, and four girls. The oldest five are married, and doing ......... mostly well. They are doing better than they sometimes think they are. We try to give help, and direction, but they need to learn addition, and subtraction before they learn algebra, so we watch, and wait, and do the best we can with where they are.

Only the twins (girls - 14) are still at home. They are doing well in school, developing their talents, and they are helpful to their mother around the home.

Most of our children live close to us, and visit us weekly or more.

We have 7 grand children, and that part of life is really fun. Nearly all of them were home last night for a family dinner. We celebrated the return (of most of our sons, and SIL's) from a fishing trip in Alaska by having a fish dinner. We are a close family, and all the children, and spouses get along well.

Last three day trip was end of March for our 30th Anniv. However, we celebrated that Anniv again in June by going on a cruise up the inside passage from Seattle to Alaska. We were away 10 days, and it was a marvelous time. I highly recommend it, and I was the one who didn't know if I would like it. I keep thinking the marriage can't get any better, only to be proved wrong. It's nice to be wrong about some things.

I know God lives, and cares about all of us. That sustains me through every trial. Help is only a prayer away -

Thanks LA. Don't let it get to you when the bad days come. It's almost always better in the morning.

SS

SS

8 Children???!!!

I thought I was unusual with having 5. People often look at me like I'm nuts!

Just wanted to say hi. It's so infrequent that I am on here lately.


I like the definitions of grow. These are me now:

To develop and reach maturity.

To be capable of growth; thrive:

To come to be by a gradual process or by degrees;

To allow (something) to develop or increase by a natural process:

To develop so as to become

To develop or change so as to fit

To become gradually more pleasurable or acceptable to

There's a theme there - evolving and acceptance. A process. I think I'm getting that these days.

Thanks for still being here. It's nice to see friendly faces!

Thanks Lizzy - I posted on your own thread.

It's odd to think of the dictionary being a source of inspiration, but there are some pretty good things in there.

Onward - and upward.

SS

SS,
Thank you for responding. How do I feel about my progress? I hadn't thought about it in that way, to tell you the truth. Progress in mourning? Progress in growing...progress as in who I am today? I guess the answer is I'm happy. Because it is a process for me.
I can't imagine getting where I hope I'm growing, btw. I wouldn't know what it looked like.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And yes, I agree that my father chose not to have a relationship with me in the way he does now in consideration of my mother. With her passing, his life changed dramatically. I know my part is clearly seeing his choices now as solely his own...where before, that was murky.

As for the "what if" for aiding our futures (not used to an extreme, as I did before), not for therapy, I agree with you. What I like is that I caught myself in one day...didn't slap myself...and felt a little freer to choose that if it comes around again in my life.

I have had those downward spirals like I used to...and have had a number of upward ones.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I like the balance...and I know you're an average guy (no superman)...and an exceptional husband and father (probably son, too, and brother)...a fine mentor, too. It's the tone of your writing which I enjoy--I hear supportive, soothing, challenging and direct.

Balance.

Like a dictionary.

lol

Thanks for sharing about your family...what you guys do inspires me. Widens my ideas.

I know God is with me...my important relationship...listening for his direction, sharing my desires...and knowing he hears...as I hear him...to do his will...having faith this is my way, right now, given my own understanding.

I'm following Lizzie's lead and writing up the definitions you shared for my wall...right next to my monitor. Thank you for passing it on.

LA

Back from our Venture Scout trip. I only wrecked my bike once.
I rarely have time on Sunday to post, so it will be later in the week .............. if I get to it before I leave for a work related trade show sometime Wed. Isn't life fun sometimes ?

I worry about the downward spirals - was hoping they were in the past.

I hope your weekend is a good one.

SS

I almost forgot -

You asked when my triathalon is scheduled.

Due to an injury, I no longer run. I hike a little, and bike a little, but very much of any of it hurts a lot, so I keep it to a little.

SS

Nothing like a four-month-old response from me, SS...

Yet your last post fits...and you do seem to me like a wise old tree...so in tree-time, that's nothin', correct?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since very much of any of it hurts a lot, you keep it to a little. Wise advice. I had to search to get to my thread...which AmI created for me...with resentment on my mind...

very much of it hurts a lot; somewhere in the last four months, I stopped keeping it to a little.

Same way with sharing my struggles on this board...thought I was in the habit of sharing my stuff with others here...looks like I've lost that trail. Need a scout to lead me back.

Old self-deception of thinking I was doing when I wasn't doing...just thinking.

Like thinking downward spirals were a thing of the past...when the past is with us...in us...like the present. Been relieving again a lot of four years ago, three years ago...and I don't know if it's part of a twist in my grieving a year ago or not. Probably part of, not the whole.

My new relationship with my father remains a gift too large for me to fully get through my door all the way. As if I've been in crash position, my own duck and cover, for these last few years...not prepared for abundance, connection, the ease of accepting love is...

And my fear of loss grows higher. With it comes my acts which I know I will resent...my focus smeared all over my DH...my sons...and missing that sneaky catalyst stress when it slips in, allowing it turn me inside out into old patterns, mindset and doing the old dance again.

Not aligning to God's purpose for me...not even allowing God into my spiral, to scoop me up. And coming back to where I was when I felt happy, open...also brings that back.

Which is why this board is awesome...because what we said when we felt, thought, believed, perceived then...remains. I can revisit myself...realign.

Like a restore setting. I can reach out by sharing and be reached.

I'm struggling with leaving this board...and have been...this year has been rough here for me...full of challenges and lessons...that I get, and lose, and they come again. God's unyielding in his reach, I believe.

Resentment is heavy, SS...I think it's the equivalent of lead inside me...slowly layered, melted from the heat of anger, fueled by fear...over time...weighs me down. Gotta give that resentment to God...and I don't know if I can lift it from my heart.

With this new board system, mods can disappear threads...poof...gone. No revisiting possible.

Big time fear in that for me.

Loss.

I read tonight on SwingDancer's thread where JustLearning felt like leaving this site, too. Immediately, I felt a loss reflected again and again, endlessly. Wouldn't stop.

What do we do with our fear of loss? Where do we put it when it's so huge it seems to blot out the sun?

I would post to myself that it's not real...it's just fear. A signal. Somehow tonight, I can't get there knowing that truth. Maybe tomorrow...it could happen.

Just not right now.

In non-cyber life...I'm still driving my mother's car. Finally got it licensed in my state...and I felt loss of that, even...taking off the Texas plates. I left them out on my kitchen table. Another step of letting go, letting reality in...just not ready for it, I guess.

My own car is now in my oldest son's hands...for he choose poorly and is in consequences beyond imagining. He allowed a coworker he drove to work with to drive his car which we cosigned on last year. The guy had a revoked license. In our city, there's an ordinance they put through two years ago, putting habitual traffic offenders into the same group as drug dealers, sexual assault, prostitution...so when they pulled over the coworker last month for speeding, they confiscated my son's car, though he wasn't driving.

The city ordinance in play reads that anyone knowing, allowing to happen or not preventing any one of these crimes (including misdemeanor theft by receiving) will have their personal property, real property or motor vehicle taken.

They put him in jail...along with the driver...he's carrying the weight of the experience along with being the first person in our family arrested. I didn't consider his one-day experience to be much...had been of the mindset that if any of my boys were arrested, they would stay there, taking their consequences. I didn't get how traumatic it was for him...his wife, after scrounging up the bond on $5,000, got him out. I was busy in my own world that day and night...clueless...not tuned in...unaware of what he was facing, going through.

God brought me to my senses the other day...got my attention through marriage-building opportunity for an acquaintance...who's wedding ring broke while I was standing there...I think God's astounding at segue's...and I heard how he was choosing to stay married and not fall back in love with his wife because years ago, she had him arrested for something unstated...and that experience was so traumatic, that the only way he would consider forgiveness was to have her be arrested, experience the humiliation he went through...

And tonight, it hit me. He's not only going to be paying the additional $500 fine for tossing his friend his keys...he's going to be paying off the $13k on a car the city will keep and auction...and the late fees on his rent (I'm thankful he kept going to work after finding out how much loss he was facing)...me advising him to keep paying whatever rent they can...so they don't owe $4k on top of the other losses for their apartment lease.

My mind went there, the night of his arrest, that this would be a huge downward spiral...lose his job, apartment, marriage and kill himself...which wasn't as dramatic or unreasonable as it may sound...he really does have PTSD, stopped taking his medication...and left his wife and my grandchild. For two days last month, I didn't know if he was dead or alive...nor did others.

His cell phone is in the car they took.

Well, my imaginings weren't real...he found rides to work and kept going...still has the job, the apartment...crushed his wife to dust for a couple of weeks...which in pain-time seems so much longer...and moved back in last week...because he's having another child next year.

Nothing healed or resolved...facing the same losses...and there I was, telling him we'd fight for him...we'd challenge this ordinance all the way to the state supreme court...making my grandiose promises...and not even understanding, listening, respecting...just posting about it here. Or thinking, hey, I have an old car he could drive...didn't even offer.

I believe in the spirit of the ordinance...do not stand by, allow, fail to prevent...I think the arrest and a $200 fine would have been huge to my son on their income...a reasonable loss. Not this.

And the driver? He's now considered a repeat offender...facing two years in prison minimum...criterion being if you have three DUI/DWI or reckless driving tickets in seven years; or 18 violations of any kind involving a vehicle in five years. I was thinking of my sons from 16 to 21...using my fingers and toes.

They're safe. For now.

Of course, my youngest hasn't gotten his drivers license yet, though he turned 18 last month...the day before OS's arrest.

Feels to me as hard to see OS's losses...the continuing damage...as if it were happening to me. Can't distinguish between the two...we can't control our consequences, neither natural or logical. Wish I could not do very much of this a lot, so it would hurt just a little.

Where do I go with that stress? Back to the gym...and then, into old patterns...where I seek relief in my DH...and focus on lack...on victimhood...back into the old days and ways I've been here to change, break, make new ones...and like my toddling granddaughter, I'm falling a lot.

She does it gracefully.

I don't.

LA

[[[LA]]] I don't know what to say to you other than I'm sorry for your sitch. YOU have been there for me,helped me, saved me, wacked me on the head softly when I was stubborn, and I have no words for you other than I'm sorry.

Please know I'll be here for you. I hope you'll be here to heal again. This to shall pass,you shall gain your strength and perspective. YOU are a marvelous loving person. Life unfortunately does have a way of sometimes taking us back to where we thought we'd already been and left. YOUR personal growth and strength will see you through this along with all of us who value you to cheer you on.

(((love and prayers)))

Thank you for sharing, LA and for staying....and for investing in those of us seeking what you have to share.

Ditto what mvg said....no need to add anything to it.

Acey

PS We weathered our latest crisis partially due to what we've both learned from you. Thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(((((LA)))))

WOW...I'm so sorry that your son it having to deal with these consequences...thereby producing the ripple effect...


I don't think that this is soemthing that we graduated from...they remain there, hiding, leering around the corner...lessons go unlearned...feelings remain the same...just when we think that we have learned all of the rules something changes...and we feel like we know nothing...but we know huh?

For me it's the instant anxiety and panic and I have to let that pass before I can do I before E...hear that little voice inside of me pointing in the right direction to my senerity, letting me know what I can do and what I can't do...the simpliest answer isn't the one that we tend to look for being complicated people...

I know that I overlook the obvious wanting to reach for the difficult...when in reality if I keep it simply it works out better all around and in the long run...

I hear your fears...I see you gathering your courage also...did you pat yourself on the back?


LAck, huh? Positive: you son STILL went to work...I applaude him for that...points to character even in a time when he is dealing with the devastation of being arrested...feeling judged by OP, even if it's only in his mind...ashamed...unable/not allowing himself to be comforted by those around him...

Tough stuff for everyone touched by the event...resentments...yeah...we can not see why we are going through what we are going through in the here and now...I personally would be questioning my HP asking why...what's the point?

However, once throught the other side of the valley...it's like we "could have had a V8!" Smacks us in the forehead... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Not when you try to do it alone, not asking for what you need...not posting here for all those who love and admire you to share your humanness... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your strenght, hope and experience reaches to our very souls providing warmth...and I enjoy sharing that warmth with you, lending you a hand when you have spiraled...not down...UP! Climbing...same theme...could it be what we can not control? protect? because our little fledglings have left the nest?

And your OS, was completely unaware that this coworker was without a vehicle, was not also aware that he did not have a license, his pass offenses?

have your OS not known, I would want to protect, defend, fight with all my might...perhaps the lesson for your OS is one of trusting untrustworthy people...I don't know...I've have my own hardships with that one as you well know...

I wish you well, you and your family...praying for you and them perhaps when you can not...I like to think that God does not carry us this far to let us fall...

Loving you...supporting you...ALL THE WAY...

LA:

What I'm not HEARING when I read your post are HOPE and FAITH...

I'll share with you my belief, coming from another soul who has also had her share of ADVERSITY..TONS and TONS of it since CHILDHOOD...and I thought it would never stop...

My belief is that ALL THINGS HAPPEN FOR A REASON..there's a purpose..had you thought that what you posted today may have helped my sons from some greater danger than your son faced...I called both of them and warned them not to let others borrow their cars....

Nothing BAD has happened to me lately but for even the LITTLE ISSUES that I face, I've started asking what's GOOD about it, Lord? What's GREAT about this? I know you're wanting to teach me something." We are BLESSED if we LEARN the REASON but we may not know in this lifetime.

I loved, loved, loved the book THE FIVE PEOPLE WE MEET IN HEAVEN. It teaches the lesson of how each event in this life is related in ways that we may not know. GOD IS SO AWESOME..who are we to try to figure out HIS PLAN..

So me, I've learned to HAVE FAITH and continue to HAVE HOPE for the FUTURE.

I've been there with my sons. Right where you are..or worse..I won't share my HORROR STORIES..but NOW they are BLOSSOMING and when that happens..WHAT A HAPPY DAY and A BLESSING and yours surely will blossom, too...

I think EVIL FORCES try to tear us down and make us turn away from the GOODNESS in this world and I STRUGGLE not to go there.

That's why I didn't leave this BOARD. The LORD brought me here that scary, horrible night of December 2002 and here I will stay until I leave. I will give back all that I've received from ANGELS like YOU. YOU have helped change my life and I don't even know you. YOU ARE A GIFT FROM GOD and to me it's almost sinful for you to allow yourself to go to that hopeless, sad place. But, part of my learning over the past years is that I certainly can't CONTROL how you FEEL.

But I WANT YOU TO FIGHT THAT DEPRESSION. FIGHT IT WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT and tell it to GO AWAY FROM YOU....

I've been down that road and it will suck you in...

Turn around and go in the other direction...

KEEP ON STEPPING INTO THE LIGHT...

I love you, LA..really do...

Mvg...thank you very much for your post...felt encouraging, accepting and had that smack of hearty appreciation in it for me.

S4B...wow...thank you so much for this...I'm gonna read your post again and again...

like Mimi's post...

to help me turn in the other direction...

and get The Five People You Meet In Heaven (I loved Tuesdays with Morrie), too.

This one day...this one, really long day...I really do want to choose a different perspective today...thank you for bringing me faith, hope and love.

LA

LA, I'm so sorry to hear about your son. Amazed to see that you're still here, helping others. Amazed. Reminded about that spiral staircase. I am glad that you are finding comfort and appreciation, today. You are so loved,
LA.

((((LovingAnyway))))

LA,

I am sorry to hear about your OS...it is very difficult as a loving parent to watch our children suffer...even if it is partially deserved through their bad choices. I think mothers tend to want to protect their children more than sons, so I can empathize with you.

I am also sorry to see that you are in a lower place, remember it is a rollarcoaster, just life in general really. I don't know if you read a post I made to Ami's thread, I too am struggeling with personal issues as well as with our YS. Sometimes I can say the cliches and say the glass is half-full, it is all in the way you look at things, thoughts are actions, think positively, God will only give you what you can handle, we only learn through adversity, hmmm, I think that covers it! And then there is a voice inside that shuts all this off and wants to dwell on the negative, be a victim in your words, boy do I play that one well! Even when I am feeling the bad affects of someone else's decisions, I am trying to learn what part did I have in this, what were my choices, even inaction is a choice. It helps me to focus on what I can control, but it definitely is a behavior I am trying to learn and am not profecient at yet!

You have progressed so much over your time here, remember to give yourself self care, and a break! I can also relate to reverting back to bad behavior/communication, it takes time to reprogram your reactions, at least you are aware of them, that is a good step!

My suggestion to you is to be kind to yourself, as kind as you have been to others here on this board. Of course I selfishly do not want to see you go, I am not aware of the problems you mention on the board though. Whatever is in your best interest first, think what that may be.

Mimi, I like your post and the reminder to have hope and faith. You allude to problems/challenges, when you feel appropriate perhaps you could elaborate on this. I have 3 sons, similar to LA, and they often times present challenges. It is hard to know the right way to guide/lead them in a manner they will accept...

nab

((((LA))))

I'm so sorry for your current struggles. I don't post much anymore but I hope you know how much your wisdom and care mean to so many of us.

Thank you again for helping me through a rough patch all those months ago. You gave me some tough love and my marriage and myself will benefit from it for a long time to come.

I hate to see you leave if that is what you choose but I do have your email so you can't go too far!!!! LOL That sounds a little stalkerish huh!!!

My thoughts are with you in this trying time. Again, (((LA)))

LOL...I'm practicing my future sponsorship skills on you! LOL

Hoping you have a great day...

Even I was thinking last night about things I would question, people I would talk too...believing in my mind that the ordinance was not intended for this purpose...wanting to go to victim hood also...

I think for me, I would have to gain a better understanding...and I think that you are where you need to be...I find myself wanting to go there...had it been my child...

Peace be with you today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One last thought...I think that the truth of the matter is SOMETIMES bad things happen to good people...

Something that we can't understand, no matter how much we turn it over in our minds...like the death of a young person...

We just have to grieve, accept, and move on...

We will cry and scream and ask God why...sit with our anger, work through it...knowing all along that "This too shall pass!"

Just checking on you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

{{{{LA}}}}

Just checked your thread and read about your OS. So sorry.

Let us know how tings are.

LA you around? Just wanted to see if you're feeling any better? (((thoughts & prayers to you and yours)))

Thanks for the check-ins, the great advice and support.

Any better? Nope. I've got myself twisted into a ball of resentment, deep in withdrawal...choosing this hurtful perspective with awareness.

Like there's some great payoff.

Funny thing with my resentment...even curled into a figurative ball, the hurt gets through...really doesn't shield or alter, does it?

********EDIT******

Taking it all in the worst way possible, eh? Downward spirals suck. Your love and support doesn't.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And yes, the offender got 120 days on an ankle monitor...and my son (whose court date is Tuesday) is having his car sued by the city in a civil suit.

Was confirmed yesterday from a voicemail.

LA

Time for some ARMOR....so those hits don't hurt.

LA, you can psychobabble to me any time.

(((hugs)))

Let's DEEM "QUEEN OF PSYCHOBABBLE" as being a GREAT THING!

Let's rename you QUEENIE!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bramblerose...help me with armor, please.

Resentment, entitlement...that well-worn reactive road isn't where I want to walk...even as I'm looking at my feet and the same scenery again.

I can't tell you guys how much that phrase hurts. My DH said that to me during his affair...same tone, same way. Talk about a trigger.

Mimi...help me with armor which does not offend, attack back, instigate or sneak by my integrity, 'k?

It's the combination...stress in my life right now, my marriage, these boards...in myself. I know this is a huge lesson I've been trying to learn all year...God's brought some incredible people to MB, I believe, in direct response for my prayers to learn and know more...

I think my cowardice in contributing my opinion has spun me back into old cycles. Confrontation is not attack...maybe time to get back to Alanon meetings...

As usual...I don't perceive correctly.

What's the difference between standing by while others do evil and not feeding the trollish behavior? Where's that middle ground? Is Ignore the only way? Do I really need to put five people on perpetual ignore?

I did that for a week. There were so many posts I wasn't viewing when I clicked on a thread. I took them back off today.

Is that armor, Mimi?

I can't see making psychobabble into something I want to be queen of, Mimi. I like the way you flipped it, though.

You're creative.

***********EDIT************

I'm praying for God to help me get this lesson...instead of it getting me.

LA

FWIW, I have never thought of you as a charlatan or evil guide or "psycho-babbling" or whatever other things you might have been called ......

I credit you with saving my sanity from my own ignorance and self destructiveness. For giving me some desperately needed perspective and tools that I never even knew existed. LA, before you started posting to me, there was so much in life that I never knew .... it was so foreign to me .... I never could figure out how people were able to relate to other people the way they did. It was SOOO foreign to me that the first few times you posted to me, I thought "What is this woman TALKING about????" and I had to re-read and re-read just to understand it. I didn't know anything about letting other people have their own stuff and me taking care of mine..... I didn't know about choosing my own perspectives. Openness and honesty, what? And how in the world would you talk to a spouse about things like that? There was so, so much that I didn't know, never got, didn't understand. Maybe it was all elementary and basic, stuff I should have known, but I didn't.

And you were patient enough to keep posting it to me, keep explaing over and over ..... changing the words or the picture until I could "get" it ..... then reminding me all over again when I un-got it .....

I have pages and pages and pages of your posts printed out at home, underlined, highlighted, dog-eared .....

And I'm a better person, with a happier, more real, much, much better life than I ever had before. Even if my H and I hadn't worked out, I learned so much from you, way beyond just about my M, that my life still would have been so much better than it was.

And I'm telling you that it's thanks to you. Even after IC and all the church classes and considering myself a pretty inteligent person ..... I never knew any of this stuff, never understood it, until YOU took the time to patiently and kindly and lovingly teach me.

I haven't expressed my appreciation enough, I don't know if there's any way to even do that.


I hope there's some validation, some payoff in this for you. Not just in my opinion of you, but in the actual tangible improvements that you have made to my life, and the lives of other people here. I hope there is payoff there for you because I believe there are so many other people who need your kind of guidance and patience and wisdom. I'd hate for anyone to miss out on that from you.


I don't know what the answer is to all the bickering and the pot-shots and nasty comments. But wanted you to know that there are lots of good opinions of you out here, too. And at least one example of real, tangible, life-changing good results, more than just a comment or opinion.

You've been a miracle and life-saver for me.
I can never, ever tell you how much you have meant to me. Can you thread some of this into your armor? I'd certaily take some of those bullets for you if I could!!!

-AmI.

Here's your ARMOR...

I ditto every single thing that AmIok has said..but I'm busy today and don't have the words...it's all in my mind..in my heart..I could be me saying those same things that she is saying...

REALLY..YOU HAVE HELPED ME PERSONALLY, IMMENSELY..when I was really struggling in dealing with my H during early RECOVERY...when I was struggling with my own children..

You didn't have to do this FOR US...it was out of your loving care about other people that you don't even know...

You are an inspiration...you are GOD SENT as far as I am concerned..GOD placed you and others HERE in my life...Don't turn away from HIS WORK..walk into THE LIGHT of HIS LOVE for US...

And I'm sorry to make a joke about the psychobabble..but really I would have you to LAUGH IT OFF...if you could...

THINK OF US as BEING YOUR ARMOR...We are all gathered around you..

But most importantly PUT ON THE ARMOR OF GOD..

Read Ephesians 6:10-18

LA ~ its the same basic principles we try to share with every new BS who shows up here on the boards.

My husband used dismiss my thoughts, opinions and points of view as psycho-babble too.

It's a self righteous, superior and very close minded trick to win an argument.

It's abusive.

So lets start with that last point:

1. It hurts. It hurt you. It's OK to feel hurt. Let's acknowledge that you are harmed by that behavior (Awareness).

2. Accept that you are a person who is hurt by other people who dismiss your contributions as worthless. This is who you are. (Self acceptance).

So...do you want to continue to be someone who is hurt by petty, thoughless bullying?

(I assume that no, you don't want to continue to be someone who is hurt by cruel attacks)

3. Draw boundaries (take action).

This is where you can be creative.

Maybe you want to use ignore. But as you said, you can't read threads with 5 active posters on ignore.

So, you can't call yourself a victim anymore, when you read vicious attacks on yourself. You choose to make yourself available.

But does that mean that you must endure the pain of mean, belittling behavior?

Not necessarily.

You see, I learned this important Rule: What other people think (or say) about me, is NONE of my business.

I choose whether or not I give power to other people in my life. I care about what my boss (whom I respect) thinks about me. I care about what my husband thinks about me. I care what my children think about me.

But what they feel, think, or say, is filtered by their OWN issues and crapola. Just because someone says it, doesn't make it true.

You can choose people whose input you will ignore and not take in and make a part of you. You can choose to filter out the input from people who are not credible. This is a boundary too.

When you are attacked you should feel empowered to examine the attack for credibility (is there something I need to change?) and if there is none, discard it and move on with your day.

The hurt, the pain, is a symptom of your choice to take that criticism into who you are, and to allow it to harm your inner peace and joy.

If you discard it at the door of your soul...no damage is possible.

Btw...thank you, Dazey, for your post. I think I missed acknowledging you.

Thank you, AmI...your post hit something in me deeply...because I have sunk to thinking that extreme...that I didn't follow God's message, wiped out all efforts...that all or nothing was hitting me pretty hard. The way you phrased your post...I had no idea. I related to you, because of your persistence, willingness to connect...even about connection. That's you, AmI. Part of your wonderfulness...and I love how you didn't equate intelligence to understanding...and you know we aren't alone in that.

My payoff...bringing this back to me...in spades...thank you so much. Mimi you're right about the armor of God...I told you I've been hiding from him lately...part of the barrier I put up in my old reactivity and resentment. He's coming through loud and clear through you all.

I knew this Bramblerose...even shared it again with my whole family a week ago last Sunday...and look at me a week later...shutting it out...refusing to choose this...know this.

You're absolutely right. The attacks are about the attacker...not me. My feelings of defensiveness, shock and hurt are about me taking in what isn't mine...believing it's about me.

Deep breath...new choice. Same for others...when I see them attacked...I'm wanting to step in and defend...taking in the hurt even second and third-hand. I really must want to hurt right now, eh?

Maybe this solves the "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" condundrum for me...because they do hurt...lol...until I get those names are about the person calling them, not me. Rinse. Repeat.

I do check myself, Bramble...when I got thoroughly trounced on JustJilly's Begin Again thread in March...I changed. No more using "abusive" and "abuse" in the Patricia Evans way...too afraid...and reading the threads about back (behind back's back) triggered me back to March. I check myself...then I wanna check others.

LOL

Letting go the outcome...I see my fingers all over the outcome.

Same for humor, Mimi...I would do repair attempts in conflict with my DH...to the extent of laughing off what seared...denying to myself...so I'm not laughing that off. Those who call me the high priestess of psychobabble...that's about them, their fear...does not mean I am not God-fearing, God-loving Christian. They don't get to make that call, right?

Taking my own advice...acting from truth (as you all have so lovingly brought back to me)...though I fear to post, post anyway.

Am I close? It's not all undone and it's not all roses...I may be experiencing right now this way...doesn't make it so. MB isn't being undone, nor is it as it was a couple of years ago, either.

Thank you for being here for me. God's beautiful reminder to ask and you shall receive. I closed that off, too. Feel like I really let down mvg, GuidedCertainty, Dazey, Diamondsj...let my fear of being a fraud get in the way.

When you hear it enough, that doublecheck turns into a voice in my head...self-doubt...fear gaining over love and bravery. Dang. Am I alone in that?

LA

Ditto Mimi, AmI and BR...

When I read that statement from******I hurt for you. I felt so much anger and my first instinct was to sink to his level. Many nasty words came to mind. But then I remembered who we are dealing with. And honestly LA, in that case you just have to consider the source and be done with it.

Please don't let others cause you hurt with their caustic and careless words.

(((LA)))

I think that WE that have spoken HERE speak the same language...

Maybe we should come up with our OWN NAME for OUR LANGUAGE...

I'm thinking....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It has to do with SPEAKING to the HEART and THE SOUL...

Aahh...LA. I too have this problem. The fear to post. I believe it was Ark that pointed her thoughts on this out on another volatile thread... why is it that we are afraid to post on an anonymous forum?

That makes so much sense but yet I am still afraid to post my true thoughts and feelings on here. So many times I type out posts and then delete them.

That conflict avoider in me still rearing it's ugly head! Even on an anonymous board I can't stand conflict. That's my truth, when reading these volatile threads I feel anxiety. Very very strong anxiety.

Still something I'm working on...

And I feel sadness. Sadness that the true basis for these boards gets lost in all of this bitterness and arguing. This is the main reason I stuck to the Recovery board even while FWH was an active WH I stayed on the Recovery board. There I felt safe. GQII does not always feel safe.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And, after one such nasty little thread that I did lower myself and respond to, I added the below quote to my sig line. I think it sums up many posters on here nicely.

Soulspeak, Mimi?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Daze & BR,

Part of why I took in**********statement is because of the valuable lesson he taught me back in March. I valued him...esteemed him...his high honesty made that lesson possible for me.

That was about him...not me. I gotta remember that. That's the door, swings out and in, me letting in his stuff.

Thank you for this lesson, Lord. Through your love, all is possible...you're always providing me the way home...through love.

LA

P.S. Thank you for sharing, Dazey. I had no idea.

ooohhh... I like it!!! Soulspeak.

LA ~ I know you know everything I just posted already.

But you clearly needed a spanking and as always, I love to oblige! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

BR,

If that was a spanking, then I'll take it! Seemed to me to be what I needed most when I needed it most.

I know you're obliging, though.

Heehee.

Now I'm going to see if Justuss edited the other person.

LOL

LA

Whoa...it was an edit fest.

Including Ark.

I don't believe I've ever seen Ark edited before.

LA

((LA)) cyper hugs and prayers for peace, strength and wisdom.

HI, just chiming in...I like the soulspeak...

I think that you are doing great...and I value all of the posts...

I know that I prefer to speak to person who are similar in my thinking which I believe has become program thinking...an conscience effort to apply what I have learned...

I think that after some time that it kicks in without my knowing it and that's how I keep my focus today..

It's been a tiring day...dealing with my sitch all day...

Wishing you well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, (((Nab)))

:::sending Rin lots of peace and strength:::

Just returning back what you've given me.

Telling myself the new mockery is about them, not me.

Rinse.

Repeat.

LOL

LA

LA:

I just read your post about your OS.

Pardon me for the threadjack rant:

Another government induced grab of personal belongings.

They did it to the tobacco comapnies to the tune of 250 billion.

And they do it this way to the regular citizen.

Because your son let a "friend" use his car.

I understand the forfeiture rules. If I have ill-gotten gains from criminal activity, the government can take them, and hopefully, redistribute them to the parties that were offended against.

Not what happens. The funds from forfeitures go into a black hole. The Sheriffs, DA, police and other agencies, take the proceeds to purchase other equipment for the departments. And its all "off the books" No legislative and or administative review. In other words, the person taking the property, is also the person who gets to control the dispostion of the property, spend the proceeds the way they want, and there is NO oversight.

Pretty scary, Huh?

And the Supreme Court, in a case from Michigan, involving a prostitute and taking of the car used for this activity, even though the owner did not know of its use in this manner, Rubber-stamped it.

Talk about shooting the 4th amendment full of holes.

So, LA, fight the fight. The 4th amendment issues, if they are laid out like you state, are there. Your son loaned a car to someone, that had a suspended drivers license. Your son "assisted" this person in the committing of the crime of "driving with a suspended license" and therefore, you get to lose the equity in the car, and you still have the liability to the Bank. Pretty fair to YOU right?

Please, other posters, do not clutter this argument with this guys prior driving record. Do YOU know the driving record of EVERYONE you might consider loaning your car too? Your BIL? Your SIL? The guy in the office that you have known for two years? Heck, even your Mother?

The way this statute is written, literally anything can be used to "take" the property of somebody, that the person who profits from the "taking" gets to determine what the charge is. And there is presumed guilt, YOU have to petition the government to get your stuff back.

Truly horrible law.

Threadjack Rant over.

Otherwise, LA, sorry you were in a funk. I hope you get past it soon. I do enjoy your posts, and your ability clarify for posters around here to own thier own abstract "stuff" is amazing.

(((LA)))

LG

This is not an accurate accounting of the facts LG.

LG:

Do you comprehend SOULSPEAK?

LOL.

MEDC:

"Not an accurate accounting of the facts"

MEDC: Sorry. More cases of gimmicky accounting in this area are surfacing all the time.

I did paint a broad brush in my RANT. (properly labeled)

When you take and gouge out a HUGE hole in the 4th amendment, and then you spread the way to enforce, regulate and administer a process across the 10,000 counties, departments and organizations in the country, even in perfect daylight, there will be problems.

But many times, these programs are kept in the edges, and in the dark of most budgets.

And many of them are run cleanly.

But the chance for abuse, is real high. Due to the lack of daylight, and the circumstances in which thay can gain possession of the "tainted property"

I'm OK with taking the drug profits and cash from the drug dealers. Taking the property that was purchased with the ill-gotten gains in thier HOME. However, the statutes are so broad, that folks like LA can get caught in the vise, and there is NO Recourse. THAT is my main beef.

I have a 15 year boy, like you have a 13 year old. My son applies for the learners permit in 3 months. It scares me to think that he could lose a car because of somebodies elses actions. That he had no prior knowledge, nor ability to KNOW about thier prior actions.

Driving around on a suspended license? That's harsh.

In the car, when a real crime is committed? Robbery, drug deal, etc? Ok. Even if it was my car and my son. Those are the consequences of that decision.

LG

Mimi:

Do I comprehend?

Certainly.

Years ago, when I was stupid, I didn't. I would have thought it was stupid.

Then I got smarter.

But, hey, that's me.

LG

I do understand better now LG...it as rather broad and I know that in Philly the dollars are very closely monitored. There is some recourse...although I imagine there are a few hoops to jump through.

Oh, and LG...I consider driving on a suspended license a real crime. Most times there are exceptionally compelling reasons to suspend a license.

Hi, LA...thank you very much...I'm so happy that we have a R that is so flexible in it's nature...

As far the rest...it is what it is! We know...when something does sit right with us and we have to weed our garden to figure out what exactly are the weeds and what is not...Aren't we all to familiar with pointing the finger at something other than the problem...that is until our emotions have had a chance to settle with the tide...

Are you practicing being? What about self-care? Oh, and OF course, a meeting would certainly help, as you mentioned...have you chose to go to one since stating that? holding yourself accountable for turning your spiral around?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LG- Check out my thread sweetie... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> FOOTBALL!!! And guess what...I ask...doesn't your son play for ____? Only question I was concerned with!!!!

MEDC- I love your quote!

MEDC:

Driving on the suspended license is a "real Crime", I understand that.

Taking your car because you loaned it to someone you didn't KNOW had a suspended license is a crime as well.

If he knocks off a liquor store on the way back to your house, and the police impound the vehicle FOR THAT, that's a circumstance when the process to get your car back, should be tilted in your favor, but administrativly more difficult.

But, to take YOUR car, because THEY are driving on the suspended license, is harsh, and an affront to the 4th amendment.

Because it all takes place before any judical proceedings. Your CAR is GONE. You have to ask for it back. But they might sell it first.

LG

Do we know WHY the license was suspended? If it was for a DUI, I would say that it should be considered. I understand your concern LG...but think about the flip side of this. Someone with a suspended license could thumb their nose at the law by always choosing to drive someone else's car. Do we not have a responsibility to assure those that are borrowing our tools/cars or anything else potentially dangerous, are in fact capable of using them safely? I believe we do.
My 23 year old nephew, who is soon to be a cop, asked me if he could borrow my jet ski this past summer. i refused...why? I didn't feel he had demonstrated to me the ability to handle it properly.
I still firmly believe that this matter would be resolved in most jurisdictions without much of a problem. But LA should be forced to jump through a few hoops to get back the car...it was in fact used illegally...and I don't know that her child was unaware of this license issue....and either does the court.

LG, based on this, i am okay with the seizure. In addition, I would question why her son was out with someone of this wonderful character to begin with.

MEDC, I would very much appreciate you not posting to my thread.

LG,

OS just finished with court. He received 8 hours community service and fines for "interference". The judge over his ticket doesn't determine the civil suit against his car. I'm waiting to hear on total impound, court fees and storage.

The driver received 120 days on an ankle monitor and a fine.

I found only one news report about this Public Nuisance Abatement ordinance...and one police newsletter which said that 1745 civil cases had been filed against the vehicles of HTO's since they were added to the ordinance (18 months).

If we can come up with the fees, fines, court costs and impound cost, then they won't be able to auction his car.

It's independent of guilt, btw.

LA

That's what I call notifying the public!

That's crazy!

Thank you, Rin, for your encouragement.

No, I haven't gone to a meeting. I'm meeting the gym this afternoon, though! (Got my 3/4 mile to swim away the stress.)

As for notifying the public...it was enacted to be a deterrent...a secret deterrent.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi...I guessed LG spoke soulspeak...or maybe, soulsing. I swear I've heard music in his posts.

LA

WOW...what a swim...preparing for next year? With AmI?

LOL...I would have some serious problems with a SECRET deterrent...

You mentioned all of the fines, fees, etc...if you don't mind me asking, what are we talking here...

And what can be done to repeal the process, if anything? I'm sure that you have spoken with a lawyer about it...or are you guys going to stop at clearing your son?

And HOw is your son doing now? His wife? the rest of the family?

We don't know the tally yet...I think he has to be served with the civil suit first...they said there's a court order holding the car now.

I'm trying to figure out about appeals...this ordinance hasn't be up to the state supreme court to my knowledge...and I'm not sure if it can get there.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

How is he doing? Well, today, he's sick of state government, that's what he said. After court he took my old car to get emissions and tags and then changed out the tires to snows...in the snow. His youngest brother was with him, though...and he sounded good when he stopped by to unload the non-snow tires.

He's grateful for use of my car.

He and his wife are spending their third anniversary in the mountains...and taking Harley's questionnaires with them, they said. I don't know, really. She's pregnant again, so he's back home with her...he registered for classes in January...still has a job (thank goodness). Lots of pressure there, daily. Lots of deep hurts in each of them.

My son was guilty of interference because he allowed an HTO to drive his car with himself in it. That's what I understand. Could be wrong. He got a $142 fine for that and 8 hours of community service because he pled guilty in the hearing.

I know that $142 is 10% of his monthly income; and it was taken out of the $500 bond they posted last month to get him out of jail. I don't know about the mandatory $500 fine for the ordinance yet...don't know when that comes into play, nor the rest of the fees.

I know it also has cost him a day's pay.

He's working on getting help through the VA...he's gone each day after work for a week (guess they don't take appointments) and waits two hours to see if he can get counseling. One of the conditions of him moving back into the marital home.

I don't know what kind of lawyer to get...I forwarded legal services websites to them to contact and see if they qualify.

The swimming is for stress relief. When I lost weight before, I worked too much on my muscles (didn't know) and got down six dress sizes, but large muscles. This time, I want long ones.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Only way I can really process this stress right now. Feels like an afternoon at a spa to me...how I view it...do you think, old body-building wonderwoman, that I will get long muscles this way, if I do a, eventually, a mile a day in the pool? What if I lose the yellow-polka-dotted flippers and floaties?

{{{{{{Rinderwoman}}}}}

LA

LOL...I'm really not sure...I don't have the answer for you on that one...long muscles! HA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that working with my coach back in college we did light weight, TONS OF Repetitions... I was in a size 8 and weighting 117...now I weight about 138 and am in a size 6 MOST DAYS!!! LOL

Prior to the infidelity diet, I was down to 121 and in a size 2/4...I like my 6/8...for the time being...I'm comfortable for the most part...you know having babies...those stretch marks bother me a WHOLE LOT...worth it, but bothersome...

I'm amazed at you!!! WHat the heck, keep the polkadots...good for the soul, I say!!!

Kinda like Christmas...I'm having fun shopping for the boys because "I" get to play with them too...got some REALLY COOL Nerf dart guns tonight while they were are religion...OH, NO...I was in a rush to get back across town and forgot to get me a new one...

LOL...That's another trip!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I only have an hour to play Santaette!!

Good to hear that there's forward motion with your son and his wife...I have faith...perhaps it was to bring them closer for all we know...you are ALL in my prayers!!

LA just wanted you to know I am thinking of you and your family.

((take care friend))

LA, I'm very sorry to hear about everything that is going on with your son. Such stress! And before the holidays, too.

With regard to exercise and long muscles, I have a suggestion: Pilates. As a former skater, I swear by it. I love my reformer.

I swim for about 30 minutes a day in the summer and enjoy it immensely. I do it more for the mental aspect than for exercise, but I'm also not going for speed when I swim.

PK

LA, I'm glad to see that you're back swimming in self-care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Like that Rocks in a River, just keep leeting those deposits add up, know that they are, hon. Is the swimming good practice at remembering to breathe?

((((LA)))) Glad to see you back

Just offering my .02 worth of (((((((((LA)))))))).

For all you've given me in terms of time and thoughtful advice, now is the time I wish I could return the support. What I've got offer is cyber support -- hopefully it's enough to help you through what is a very rough go. If I knew the state in which you lived, I may be able to offer some legal mumbo jumbo to help get the car back....

I've been on both sides of those civil suits and had my fair share of arguments...usually, at least with the 3 states I'm familiar with, there's an argument to get the car back....

You've been a tremedous influence for me LA...I hope you know how much I appreciate having you here and hearing your thoughts...you are valuable, you are worthy, you are you.

(((((LA)))))

mvg...being in your thoughts is a warm comfort. Thank you very much.

EO!!!! Oh my gosh...just like drinking cool water after a long thirst. LOL on the swimming in self-care...you'll be in my head this afternoon as I "lap it up"...caution: punfest.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And about breathing...gosh, ya know, that may be why I finally relax afterwards...'cuz I'm NOT reminding myself to breathe through the day. Thank you!! (Okay, just did. Wahoo.)

DSJ,

Oh, that's right...I just had a V8 and it didn't stop that DUH moment. Yes, I'm in Colorado. It's a Denver ordinance, though...not a state law. I really don't know how to proceed with that. I think I'll know more when DS gets some paper work on it. So far, only verbal from the police department.

So help me with the argument...please. I know you appreciate our relationship...I just forget to remember.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Helps remind me when I get to SEE you.

My heart's full right now, you guys...Rinners...I'm really touched you're posting to this thread. Thank you.

LA

One day..... as the story goes........ a women walked along the beach.

Her life was troubled. (Isn't that a nice way to talk about the horrible things we go through?)

It is said that she prayed as she walked along the beach, and it came to her that she should write her troubles in the sand. Taking a stick........... she wrote......

As she finished, she noticed the waves getting closer.... and closer.

Soon the writings vanished away. The waves left a stretch of clean, wet sand where her words used to be.

Time is like the tides. It has a way of taking away our troubles.

LA, I don't know where you will be in 100 years. I do believe that many of these experiences that trouble you now won't even rate a footnote by then.

I don't mean to minimize the pain, and the stress, and the work it takes to get through things.

I do mean to help you put things in perspective.
Perspective is a wonderful thing. It enables us to continue to work on things and prevents them from overwhelming us.

Remember that this life is a test...... it is difficult by design. We do well at some subjects, and poorly at others. It is different for all of us.

Take joy in the things you do well. Work on the things you need to work on. Don't let the working on the one, keep you from celebrating the other.

Jesus said "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
That means that no matter what we go through, he can, and will help if we continue to look to him for that needed help. It is not a maybe, it is a promise and it is more sure than the sunrise we expect tomorrow.

Merry Christmas - and keep in mind what this really means, in light of the promises that God makes to those who look to him for help.

SS

(((SS)))...can't type...monitor is suddenly all blurry.

Thank you.

LA

It is easy to see from what all your friends are writing that you are loved, and that they want happiness for you.

I can't help but believe that they will, in the end, get their wish.

We try so hard to say things that will help, and we hope we do, but words often fail to convey how much we care.

Hope you feel it though.

SS

opps, double post - doesn't happen much these days.

BTW, I left out part of that quote - It may be of more help to include the whole verse.

From John16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Merry Christmas LA - and best wishes for a happy new year. May you find joy in the journey.

SS

I'll be glad to give something hopefully useful for you! Let me do a little research and see if I can find that ordinance on the Net...

and "I'll be back".

...chin up LA...friends surround you - one of the greatest things when the world seems the dimmest...last night, for some reason, the "Footprints" poem entered my mind -- do you see one set of Footprints in the sand or two?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HURRAY Diamondsj! Thank you for stepping up and offering LA your help...

LA- How are you feeling today? I AM felling good...been talking to POWS this morning about the kids and I'm okay.

How's that monitor today? Do I have to ask DH to get another one? LOL...Figured I would ask about the operator, then the equipment!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SS-Thank you for sharing that! it's awesome!

YOU NAILED IT THERE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

We have a similar ordinance, but in our case, they rarely take the car if it's financed, especially if it's someone else's. Even in drug cases, they've decided not to seize the vehicle before.

It may not be that flexible over there, but here it's sort of up to the discretion of the cop, whether they take the car or not ... I wonder if a little gentle, humble pleading from your son with the sgt. or someone higher up in the department who took the car would work?


HTO used to be a felony in this state. Right before we got married, my H had a friend who actually went to prison (not just jail -- he was in Canyon City) for 18 months for HTO. He was sentenced and had just started serving his time when they changed the law. He did 18 months on a 3-year sentence. For too many traffic tickets. THAT was crazy. I'm glad they at least changed that law.

-AmI.

Thank you, PK, for your suggestion. I did pilates three years ago after I'd lost the weight...most intense workout I've ever experienced. I'm using what I learned from pilates in the pool...every third lap I do, I hold my core muscles (while breathing out) rigid for the entire length and only swim with my arms.

Once I get my endurance up and some more weight off, I'll do the yoga classes again. I think those were the best. Time will tell if I get long muscles or short ones.

Thank you for your support.

I think SS knows my monitor got blurry 'cuz of my eyes, Rin...operator tear-ror.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I still want Lasik, though.

Thank you for checking around, DSJ...whenver you have time. This is more waiting for information, written notifications...knowledge. No rush. Hang time sucks, though.

Rin, it's my granddaughter's first birthday today. I was thinking about you grounding OS this week...coparenting...and here I am, blessed beyond imagining, really...still focused on crud. I get her for the whole weekend...and I'm a little afraid of that! LOL

(Wish I'd gotten in shape all year now...doncha know.)

Fullness is still there...thank you all for helping me to see it...to write my stress in the sand...to know we connect and disconnect...and I believe...remain connected, always, through God's grace and design.

Who knew letting love in can hurt as much as not letting it in?

We'll get through this together...each day, we do, don't we?

LA

Love it, love it...

((((LA))))

I'm glad you said to take my time...just found the ordinance, printed it, and it's 22 pages long...may take me a bit to absorb and digest it....

If I've got specific questions for you regarding this situation to better help you, do you want me to post them here or would you rather email me? If so, I'll provide my email address for ya. Doesn't matter to me, you may not want to divulge all sorts of info. Any info. I'd ask for wouldn't require divulging personal info...just facts and things.

Now I'm in my legal mind instead of my MB mind...can you tell? lol. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LA:

Sorry about cluttering up your thread....

You should still fight this thing.

Doing what's right takes a lot of work.

Learned THAT around here.....

Whatever the low spots, there are friends here, to put thands thru the monitor to lift you up!

LG

Dont wanna thread Jack....

LA- I have missed you in my thread!

Hope all is well

DSJ,

I would love your email. You can post it and I can catch it, then you can remove it, 'k? Your legal mode is as cool as your MB mode. I know that ordinance is really long...I've read through it. The part pertaining to us was only added in 2005.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Zach...I've been wrapped up in my own stuff...struggling with the MB board as well. I haven't forgotten you...I see all the help you're getting. I will chime in, 'k? I appreciate the nudge.

LG...you enhance, not clutter. I am going to fight this...funnily enough, just don't know the way yet. Not just for my son...for all those 1745 ones who were clueless of these consequences...

And yes, I really do feel the love push through my monitor...when I face my fear of letting others down, not being there for them, and ask for their help...just as they add to my life when they ask...that was the tricky part. Wish I'd done this earlier.

I'm planning on starting a new thread in Recovery forum, too...and would appreciate you keeping your eyes peeled for it. I'd value your input very much.

LA

Oh, pooh..

I don't visit the Recovery Forum...

Why not, Mimi?

LA

I never could fit in over there for some reason..

I might check it out again..

Plus, my time is so limited...so I have to focus..

Gotcha, Mimi.

I cherish your focus.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA:



Here it is...I'll leave it for awhile, then delete. Let me know you got it....

Got it!

LA

Thanks LA!

Your the best, I love all your posts and inspiration.

I hope everything is good with you.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm planning on starting a new thread in Recovery forum, too...and would appreciate you keeping your eyes peeled for it. I'd value your input very much.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Oh, pooh..

I don't visit the Recovery Forum...
____________________________________________________________

Shoot! I don't either...I stick...I'm good at it and I stick to this one!

I'm like the goo that you throw on the wall and it walks down! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Then, b/c it was cool...you do it again! LOL

HAppy Granddaughter's B-day! yeap...you sure are lucky! one day, I'll be lucky in your shoes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Spoil her and send her home! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't think you will be TOOOOOOOO tired after the event! LMAO

That's probably what's true of me, too, Rin...LOL....

I'm the one that's probably next in the grandchild dept.; cept my young men aren't even thinking about the "C" word, COMMITTMENT...

You've got a LOOOOONG WAY to go. I HOPE!!

LOL...I BETTER OR they will be MORE THAN GROUNDED!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope so tooo!!

Guess I COULD branch out for LA!!! I would go there from time to time and check on AmI, but it got depressing...for me...my stuff...

LA, glad to see you hanging in here. I'm keeping an eye out for your thread.

Do you ever go over to SoCal? We got invited to a firend's timeshare down there the week between Christmas and New Year's. Although sounds like you have your hands full right now!

Rin, I love how you post 5 things that you're grateful for! LA, your grandbaby's 1st would count for one of those, right?

hugs!

Update on family...

OS has his car back as of this past Tuesday. Case is settled...out of pocket...$2000. Options were...city auctioning off car or bank doing so...this was the less of the all evils, IMHO.

Now comes the next level of getting this city ordinance before the state supreme court. I thought I'd be jumping all over it right now...waiting only for OS to drive off the impound lot.

Instead, I'm procrastinating. How 'bout that? LOL.

I don't believe we would have received the car back at all had it not been for diamondsj here on MB. My deepest thanks, and those of my family, to her and hers...what a great heart, clear mind and generous soul.

LG...the fight will continue. Any peptalks you got to get my juices flowing again will be welcomed.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I wanted to ask Mimi, AmI, EO, jayne, Rin, mvg, GC...anybody else if they were offended by a poster calling us a group, soulspeakers group...because I was and I let the moderator know. We said we understood one another...which I took to mean for me, mutual intent...what we're all here for. The soulspeakers part wasn't exclusionary in my book...said we had to strive first to understand, then be understood.

Not gibberish, psychobabble...belief in mutual intent on MB. All in this together...and yes, we will be misunderstood...no control over that...and we will make mistakes, amend and learn more.

And EO...on my permanent gratitude list...I have been forgiven so much in my life...maybe that's why I see in others greatness...for you all have forgiven so much...and still, you respect, strive to understand...we are living in grace.

I'm missing BR...and replaying her words in my head. Keeps the ripples going for me.

Btw, OS signed up for college...has two classes beginning this month...nowhere close to offing himself...which is the main reason I think we don't...because we don't really fail our lives...we live them.

LA

Hi LA,

Hope your holidays were great! I didn't even see the post calling us a "group". Of course I only sporadically read. It still causes me a lot of pain to read here some days.

I did see a sig line mocking us but I choose to take anything that particular poster says with a grain of salt.

Glad to see things are working out with your son. I hope you are doing well. Life on this end is pretty terrific. I'm afraid to say it too much b/c right before d-day (the original, I had so many!!!) I had just told my dad that for the first time in years life was really good and stress free. Not a week later the bomb dropped!! So now I'm afraid of jinxing myself. Not very rational I know...

So... any new years resolutions?

I have the stereotypical ones. But they all fall under the theme of taking care of myself. So for now, I've set a strict budget, started a exercise routine and keeping track of calories and ounces of water I'm drinking per day. And I'm trying to declutter my house and life. This is the year I really take control of my life and get rid of unnecessary stresses. All of those things cause me stress, so I'm doing something about them!!!

How about you?

Hugs
Dazey

(((Dazey))),

Seeing your name always lifts my heart!

I totally understand the jinx factor...really shows how our brains work...linking the result to our own actions/thoughts...no wonder we think we control outcomes, eh?

I'm gonna celebrate with you that your life is terrific right now...won't jinx you in any way...right now is right now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've had a hard time comparing again, my right now with my previous nows...lol.

Helped me to say that to ya.

No new year's resolutions...and doing much what you are doing...I got a pedometer for Christmas...(counts steps, not calories...but close)...upping my water intake...and my time in the water, working out...I did a lot of decluttering last year and will continue...I want to get back to shining my sink again...I've let my resentment dictate not doing more than my DH these past few months...even petty stuff...and now he has no clean clothes.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So my new year's resolution is to get off the playground and play grown up again...I liked me better when...

Here's to us both processing our stresses better...including not sweating the small stuff...just the toxins.

I appreciate you.

LA

Hey LA! I've wondered how you've been with all that was going on. Glad to hear things are sorta settled even tho it bites.

And I wanted to ask Mimi, AmI, EO, jayne, Rin, mvg, GC...anybody else if they were offended by a poster calling us a group, soulspeakers group...because I was and I let the moderator know. We said we understood one another...which I took to mean for me, mutual intent...what we're all here for. The soulspeakers part wasn't exclusionary in my book...said we had to strive first to understand, then be understood.

I didn't see that post. I agree with YOUR understanding. I hope this wasn't 'the problem' poster we've experienced in the past few months...or maybe I do, at least you know what to expect. Truthfully tho, as muddled as my mind is at times I probably wouldn't have caught it. DUH.

Glad to see ya! YOU gotta check out the Goddesses thread if you need a boost!

GREAT news on your DS getting the car back! Congrats!! Pretty steep price, but at least it's over with.

Such an obscure law, just kind of snuck in the back door .... it really seems very unfair. And your DS was one of the lucky ones, he got his car back. There are probably a lot of people who haven't been that fortunate, didn't have a secret diamond to help them out ..... So my vote is to keep up the crusade. It's easy to vote that way when it doesn't mean adding drama to my own plate, though. So maybe I'll change my vote to: keep up the crusade when it doesn't interfere with more important things like your family and your M -- the things that need to take priority.

And you've got big priorities, with that new grandbaby on the way! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


As far as the grouping thing -- I consider most of the people who have posted to this thread to be pretty good company. So I don't mind at all being associated with wise, compassionate, loving people who have been incredibly helpful to countless numbers of people around here. Just like I wouldn't mind being called an MB'er ... I'm pretty proud of being associated with this board, too.

The part that did offend me was the warning. Telling a new member to "be wary" of this "group". At a time when there was already so much drama around here about trolls and who should be listened to or not. I was very offended that a new member was warned away from a group of people including some very long term, established, credible board members -- who just happened to post on the same harmless thread.

That was prety offensive. And a little eye-opening. I guess I tend to get a little bit of a polyanna mindset sometimes, so maybe the occasional reality slap is inevitable. Who knows. I haven't been around here much recently, though. Seems like sometimes there gets to be a lot of that reality slapping going around, and those slaps sting even when they aren't aimed at me.


So, I guess I've been finding other thigns to do. Such as .... Did you know that there is a suburb of Boston called "Worchester" that is pronounced "Wooster"? Rhymes with "rooster". Add a Boston accent and it's really more like "Woostah". Even the people on the news pronounce it that way. Several of us in my class went there for dinner last night, to a pub called O'Conners .... amazing place with great food and all kinds of character. Walls covered with crazy signs and beer taps and everything else you could imagine, and at least half of the waitstaff were really Irish -- or at least had very convincing Irish accents.

From now on, I'll be pronouncing that sauce "Woostah"-shire sauce. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

LA, I would never be offended by someone grouping me with you! I feel honored. Truly.

*hugs*

(I know what you mean though. Yea, I understood you...)

When I've had a bad day at work, H says "Don't worry, everyone in this house loves you!"

LA... everyone in *this* house loves you.

*hugs*

Jayne said:

I wanted to add my name to the list of those who feel honored.

You Matter... to many.

Jilly

"And I wanted to ask Mimi, AmI, EO, jayne, Rin, mvg, GC...anybody else if they were offended by a poster calling us a group, soulspeakers group..."

That would be a statement about the person who made the comment, right? To be honest, I spend most of my MB time over on the EN board. I follow a thread over here mostly if I see familiar names on it, like Rin, AmI, INAH, SadMo. I don't feel offended, but whether I was offended or not that day may reflect my experience that day more. I am working on that, like you said, that's why we have boundaries, so we're not living by our feelings. Maybe if I knew who said it, and it was someone that I had different expectations of, then I'd be more offended.

Just read this...

Yes, I find that highly offensive. If someone doesn't like what I say, or how I say it, then tell me. If I find the criticism valid, I can work on that. But to warn someone off from us as a group, that makes me sad to hear that.

I'm trying to move past NEGATIVITY in all aspects of my life...trying to find the POSITIVE in EVERYONE and EVERYTHING...maybe there was something I needed to learn from that...

LA,

I was sorry to read of your mother's passing.

I was catching up on reading posts and found what you're going through. I will say a prayer for you, that you will find peace in this difficult time.

Schoolbus

Mimi,

you said:


Although I don't think I have ever posted to you before I have read many many of your posts to others. In reading your posts I see this in YOU... a focus on the positive and a desire to find the lessons... and to take those lessons and glean the positive out of them.

Can I ask you a question? If someone posts something either to you or to someone else that is upsetting to you... if it is upsetting to you how do you wrap your mind around it to stay focused on the lesson and on the positive aspects that you can learn about it for yourself? I see you doing this... I really do... can you suggest some strategies you have found helpful for YOU?

I think I pretty much have a handle on the difference between REacting versus ACTing.Doesn't mean that I don't ever react any more...just that I usually can catch myself when I am doing it. However I see you speaking your mind in a respectful way and at the same time NOT backing down either. That is a balance beam... I don't think I know how to operate yet. Maybe it has something to do with being able to assert yourself without coming across aggressive... cause you don't come off aggressive, least IMVHO. So how do you do it?

Jilly

Very interesting that you should say that!

Jilly:

Coming to this place, emotionally, has taken lots of hard, hard PERSONAL RECOVERY work over the past couple of years...

I got some AWESOME, AWESOME help HERE..I wish I knew how to pull up some of my PERSONAL RECOVERY threads..I haven't been able to find them. I called them MY LIGHTBULB MOMENTS..but JL, PEP, BR and LA helped me out with this..also, I have continued to do MY READING..BIBLIOTHERAPY, I call it..

Most importantly, the PERSONAL CHANGE has made such a remarkable difference in my life...in my relationships with my loved ones..I have never ever been happier..and I have suffered from bouts of depression.

I used to be known as the one who will "get you told"..and I would fuss and fight with my words...and that would SCARE people away...I said out loud to my husband about a month ago: "I don't want to be known for that ever again"..cause I notice at times that he seems FEARFUL that I will turn back into my old self...

I CHOOSE JOY AND HAPPINESS..just like in my signature line..

Of course, I'm human. I have my days and my triggers.. but just like in doing THE PLANS... I get back up on the horse.

I think the first step, is to make a COMMITMENT and a DECISION to change. The next step is to get rid of THE FEAR OF CHANGE...FEEL THE FEAR and SAY IT ANYWAY...FEEL THE FEAR and DO IT ANYWAY...a book by Susan Jeffers, I think..

Jilly:

Another GREAT BOOK that helped me alot..,most recently... is AWAKEN THE GIANT WITHIN by Anthony Robbins.

For example, when LovingAnyway says something to me that I'm finding harsh, I trust that she checks her intent, and that the intent was not harsh. So I will look at it again and ask myself what else she could have meant <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And ask her if I *still* don't get it.

Where if it was someone that I didn't have that level of trust in, I might, mistakenly or not, just go from the assumption that they are being harsh!

Mimi,

Thanks... I will order that one tonight. If it is the same Anthony Robbins... I believe he is or was at one time a motivational speaker, he was on Larry King the other night with a couple of doctors discussing a book (I only caught the end of it so I don't know if it is the same book you are referring to) but he made a very interesting point.

He was telling a story about a group of woman who were struggling to lose weight and work out consistently. They were all woman who were highly successful in other areas of their life. When he found out that these women's workout partners were each other (the ones who weren't having success with their diet and exercise programs) he suggested to them that they find someone in the gym that had a successful diet and exercise program and start working out with that person instead of continuing to work out with people who were not having success.

Basically he said that they would be a lot more motivated and less likely to slack off or give up with the diet and exercise program if instead they chose to surround themselves with people that were ALREADY successfully demonstrating the ability to follow a healthy diet and exercise program.

So I took away from that... even if you have much success in many areas of your life...if there is an area in your life which you want to change, then make sure to include people in your life that are currently successful in the area in which you want to improve.

Anthony Robbins... and I am pretty sure it is the same one you are referring to has to my knowledge always come about things from a really POSITIVE mindset. He was really positive on Larry King.

I'm ordering that book.
Thanks Mimi!

Jilly

Mimi,

Sorry, I missed this first post, just saw the book recommendation one.

I like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I will look for some of your old recovery threads if you want. Can you give me an estimate of the time frame when you might have posted them... doesn't have to be really specific, maybe like the years you think they might have been posted and I can search from there. Also do you remember any of the thread titles or topics? Most of your posts are on GQ right?

I have read a lot of your older threads so I might be able to locate them if I know which ones in general you are looking to find.

I don't know the Susan Jeffers book but I do remember a thread here about why people chose their user id names and I remember reading why LA chose her name... and it was similar to the idea of "do it anyway". I'll have to ask her again about the author who wrote that because it was an awesome paper.

I agree with you that there are some very remarkable people here who have helped me with my own personal recovery... helped me with my thinking process. I posted to Ear's thread about the link in her signature line in another thread... the one about everybody makes sense all of the time. If you get a chance to read that link in her sig line... it was a really interesting perspective. I read it last night and found it opened a different perspective for me to think about things.

I also agree with you that it is about making a conscious and mindful choice to change.

I enjoy reading your Goddess thread. I think it is important that we learn to create beauty and joy in our lives. It kind of reminds me of a book my mom gave me many years ago called Living Beautifully Together by Alexandra Stoddard. The copyright date is 1989 and I am glad that your Goddess thread made me go to look and see if I could find this book. Although it is an older book it might be a good read for those on your Goddess thread. In the book the author talks about doing a lot of the kinds of things your thread suggests. She is the same author who wrote Living a Beautiful Life.

I like that you started that thread. It offers hope and spreads the message that YOU are worth using your best dishes, wearing your nice clothes, buying the best that you can for yourself at any budget. That you don't have to have lots of money to live with the Goddess mindset... and Mimi you did that on that thread. Bravely there and I have read here over and over where you have told others... that they are worth believing that they are precious, special, beautiful, especially during times when they may be struggling so much to believe they are.

One other tip you might want to pass on the Goddess thread (because I think someone mentioned nicer bed linens) is that there are two online stores that sell really nice high quality thread count linens... like 1000 thread count sheet sets any size for around $100. They also have nice quality down comforters and pillows, good towels etc. One is called smartbargains.com and the other is called overstock.com. I just got a nice sheet set 1200 thread count for $129.

I think in the Living Beautifully together book the author says something like we spend approximately one third of our lives in bed (if you get 8 hours of sleep a night... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) then you should really invest in making your bed something you look forward to sleeping in. I dunno maybe I heard that on Oprah.

Anyway thank you for the suggestions, for the many threads in which you show what true grace looks like, and for sharing with other woman how to learn to love themselves more. It matters Mimi, it really does.

I'll look for those threads of yours and if I can find them I will link them here if that is alright. Then you can maybe link them in your signature so people will always be able to find them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

WOW..my books must be imprinted in who I am..the STODDARD BOOKS are some of my FAVORITES and I have incorporated her way of living into MY LIFE..

I'm gonna pull them out again...THANKS!!

Jilly, come over and join the GODDESS THREAD...
............................................................
One of the major TOPIC threads of mine has the word LIGHTBULB in it..It was MY LIGHTBULB MOMENT or something..and also the words MY PERSONAL RECOVERY is one of them, I think...

It was about 2 or 3 years ago...

I tried searching but have never been successful..

LA, PEP, BR and JL have been posters to me regarding my stuff...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I FOUND ONE, JILLY!!!

Mimi,

So cool, I just found that one and then when I was gonna post the link you had already found it...that is so awesome. I am gonna link it to my favorite threads so I can find it in case it gets lost again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

Mimi,

No wonder it made me think of the Stoddard book my mom gave me. I am so grateful that it did make me think of and pull that book out. After my own parents divorce, my mom, even when we didn't have a lot of money, made things beautiful for us.

I honor her memory by wrapping beautiful presents. Before she died I didn't have the patience it took to take the time to wrap in the elaborate and special way she always did. Now I always do... to honor her and many of the other small ways she did things to bring more beauty into our life.

One of the other things my mom taught us to do when we were young was to always send hand written thank you cards. With the advent of email I know it is becoming more and more of a lost art... handwritten letters, notes, etc. I think those are some of the things that I treasure the most... notes and cards from my mom, and others through the years.

Thank you for the invitation to the Goddess thread. I want you to know that I sincerely appreciate the kindness of your invitation, but since many of the posters on that thread are newly BW... I just don't want your wonderful thread to take a negative turn if I show up.

Because I married my affair partner... didn't get the lesson until many years later when I became the BW myself... wouldn't recommend my road to anyone. ANYONE! I just don't know Mimi... my posting there may be upsetting and hurtful to someone and I just don't want that or your thread which is very positive to take a negative turn because of me. I know it is my fear, my stuff... I own that it is and my fear.

Perhaps I can just post any Goddess tips here and you can relay them if you think they are Goddess worthy. Would that be okay with you?

Thanks again,
Jilly

I have not read this thread yet, but if there's a LovingAnyway Fan Club, sign me up for a Platinum Membership!

]quote]
For example, when LovingAnyway says something to me that I'm finding harsh, I trust that she checks her intent, and that the intent was not harsh. So I will look at it again and ask myself what else she could have meant <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And ask her if I *still* don't get it.

Where if it was someone that I didn't have that level of trust in, I might, mistakenly or not, just go from the assumption that they are being harsh! [/quote]

I was thinking more along the lines of how we get to know someone and develop trust in that person...and then, as time goes on, that person reveals his/her true self...maybe even tells you about a cruel thing he/she did...and that there is no regret or remorse for doing so..and in fact, talks about it as being wonderful. And, in the telling, this person deeply wounds your heart.,,because what this person did to someone is what someone else is now doing to you...and this person knew that from the beginning.

Hi Lady,

This is quite interesting. My take on it was still different from yours or EO. The first thing I thought of, was if it was someone who I didn't have high expectations of, I might ignore them... if it was someone who I held to a higher standard, based on past performance, then I would explore further like EO said, and be more disappointed if I thought they really had acted offensively.

So I think that's sort of a variation of both your and EO's responses.

As an example, since I don't recall any of your posts, I thought you may have been being sarcastic or baiting. And so I was going to ignore your comment, since I didn't have a past history to use to interpret. When I read EO's response, I admired what I saw as tactfulness and restraint - my interpretation, because I do know her.

This seems to me like a glaring example of how we (or at least, I) interpret others through very specific filters. I am reminded to not be so quick to assume I know someone's motive. Thanks. And I'm sorry for the DJ - for assuming you were "baiting".

It sounds like you are thinking of a very specific example, that you are hurting over. Do you want to tell us more?

Wow Jayne,

Are you reading my MIND? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe my take was just a little different than yours... I dunno if I didn't know better I could swear it almost sounded like a threat.

Or maybe an assumption that there is something SO horrible that we would just be shocked to find out.

You know Jayne, when you really get to know someone they often really DO tell you who they are. Isn't that the amazing thing about friendship. Funny how someone might assume that friends aren't forthcoming and honest.

Oh but I forgot, wasn't there something else about it being a popularity contest? There is NO contest. A landslide maybe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

Morning JJ! Just wanted to let you know that I SEE you are around! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's great!

I love your presence, you have wonderful things to add...

How are you doing with accepting that you are a whole, complete, and beautiful person these days?

It's been rough going for me from time to time but LIFE IS beautiful!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA:

Glad to hear you got the car back.

Fight the law. It isn't right.

Forfeiture of ill-gotten gains is appropriate, but innurement to another because of "suspected" activity is theft.

So, fight the fight.

LG

The story is not mine to tell, although I was a witness to it. Let's just say that it would be a nightmare for just about any BW. This person's hypocrisy is galling.

I don't post much anymore, but I've been on MB since 1998...been through a couple of name changes along the way because of a snoopy DD.

I just post when the spirit moves me and I have time!

LadyC is right. The people to tell this story is the person who hides the story, and the person the story was told to.

They have the place to tell it, if it is to be told. Because if others tell it, then, it could look vengeful, gossipy, mean.




I like LG's signature line. He states something that is true, but difficult to live up to:

"How do you distract yourself from doing what it takes to be remarkable?

By allowing your secrets to remain so."

People who hide secrets COULD stand up and be remarkable, and tell them openly, release their pain, and walk anew in a life of truth. It would be difficult. It would take them down in the eyes of others to some degree, because of hypocrisy lived. But in the end, they could lift themselves from the shame of secrecy and move into the light of truth.

It is right to live in truth. It is not always easy.

We all have learned that by living through infidelity, haven't we - on one side of it or the other.

So to tell the story of our infidelity here, the whole story, then........why hold back? Why hold back even a part of it, because it is what it is, ugly. There's only one way to get redemption, and that starts with the truth, the brokenness of confession of the whole truth - it starts at the very bottom of the ugliness. The Harleys talk about answering all the questions for a reason, because they know this.

Recovery doesn't really start until that starts.


SB

LOL!

It certainly appears that the two of you are doing just about whatever it takes to tell this story in a way that allows you to avoid appearing vengeful, gossipy and mean.

If you hold the opinion that it is the place of 'the person' to tell their story, what is your motive for bringing it up?

Are you sincerely trying to help the person and truly have what is in their best interest in mind?

Or is your motive more along the lines of being vengeful, gossipy and mean?

I would really like to know the answer and I'll be up front about my motive - it is the both of your best interests I have in mind...not the defense of the person to whom you are referring.

Froz, if I wanted to be vengeful, gossipy and mean, I would spill the whole story.

This story has been on my mind a lot, lately.

My motive? More of a reminder that some people may not be whom they present themselves to be, but that if you pay attention, they will eventually reveal themselves to you. I think it's best not to get too "invested" in trusting people until you have the opportunity to see them in what they perceive to be a "safe" place where they can let their hair down, so to speak.

And, I suppose that I hold out a hope that the person involved will decide to be completely honest...and maybe come to an understanding of the cruelty of what was perpetrated and develop at least SOME empathy for how all the other parties involved were hurt.

Hi LC. Thanks for responding. I'm glad you did.



From my perspective, it appears as though the method being used to accomplish your motive is indirectly vengeful, gossipy and mean.

I felt it important to mention, as I said before - not in defense of the person to whom you are referring and not to criticize or attack, but because I think that taking a look at these methods could be something that could improve YOUR relationships.

So you stated your motive:



Are you saying that you are trying to warn someone? If so, then would you agree that your intent is not to help the person you refer to, but those that may have a false impression of that person?



Just to clarify...are you saying that you are trying to make that person feel bad so that they will understand the pain they caused?

Again, thank you for being open with me and willing to explain your position.

froz,

You ask what my motive was in "bringing it up"? Well, a previous poster asked LadyC to tell the story. She's not really wanting to, I don't think. I'm just saying why I believe she might not want to. I get the feeling she is very reluctant to say something, but would rather the person do it themselves. Probably a good idea, IMHO.

It seems to me that when it comes to truth, it is always better that it come from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Then, the "motive" cannot be questioned. I kind of see it as part of affair recovery - like when my then WH didn't want me to see his computer, his emails, etc. He was still protecting things, his secrets. He wasn't ready to let them go, the shame, guilt, I don't know......

he finally broke, finally confessed it all, opened it up.

He felt better. Then more and more began to come out, a little at a time.

Maybe this story is like that. Maybe this story is coming out over time, a little at a time, like affair stories tend to do. That's what I'm saying.

No secret "motives".

Just maybe typical behavior of an affair.

SB

Everyone and everything has a motive. Maybe purpose or goal would have been a better choice of words.



Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding you, are you saying that the goal you were trying to accomplish was to encourage this person to share a little more about themselves and their history?


It appears as though you are trying to control that outcome.



Are you saying that you do have this person's best interest in mind and that you are trying to get them to tell their story so that they will feel better?

Clueless, telling partial truths and innuendoes does no one any good. Sort of like a newspaper headline stating "Did so-and-so beat their wife?" Even if the facts are they did not beat their wife, and even though the newspaper can say they didn't tell an untruth, the damage is done.

If you have no right to tell the story, then IMHO you have no right to spread innuendoes either. Because that leaves things up to the imagination of the reader, usually resulting in the worst possible interpretation. It isn't fair to the target of your insinuation.

My offer was to kindly listen to YOUR story if someone has hurt you. My offer does not extend to listen to malicious, unsubstantiated rumors and innuendo. If that isn't gossip, I don't know what is.

It sounds to me like you are trying to forcibly "out" someone. If you don't have a right to out them, then please stop.


I feel sad that you responded thusly to my good-faith offer. At least I am not as hurt as if I had developed trust in you... but I did apologize for thinking you were baiting... and yet it seems you were. And you are showing no regret or remorse. And you seem to think you are being wonderful in your maliciousness and cruelty. Thank you for revealing your true self, I now will have a better filter for your posts.

schoolbus:
On the other thread I was about to post a response to you... then when I couldn't find a reply box I realized it was locked.


Which basically proves the point I was about to make.

Which is, it was my opinion at the time that if I had posted ANYTHING, even something supportive to smb and tst, that it would have resulted in non-helpful posts containing sarcasm and weird noises (written and linked). That opinion was based on seeing plenty of examples. Since IMHO that would NOT have been helpful, I refrained.

But I agree with you schoolbus, fear of personal attack is not a reason to stand idly by while someone is a victim of a malicious attack.

I have no clue as to what the gossip is all about...but what I do know is that Sb is a valuable poster. what I have seen from you is support for a troll (BA) and a lack of support for some people here that needed some help(SMB and TST).

SB is a fair and kind poster.

Ya know, Froz, I've always liked you and thought you liked me, so I can't understand what your motives are in giving me the third degree. Your perspective are yours, Froz, and mine are mine. I wasn't aware that you thought I was the sort of person to be vengeful, gossipy, or mean.

Suffice it to say that yes, people should be zreful about who they trust online.

And, as far as making that person feel bad...well, I think the person's actions should make them feel bad, because I can't make them feel one way or the other about anything.

As far as I know, that person STILL does not feel badly about the actions perpetrated. As far as I know, that person has NOT been totally honest about past actions on MB, while preaching honesty to others.

As Schoolbus said, I was asked to tell the story, and I am not free to do so.

That person knows what we are talking about, and it is up to that person to come clean if he/she ever develops a conscience about that wrong-doing. If not, then that person will have to answer for it when the time comes. The karma bus may take a while, but it always comes back around.

The only other person who can tell that story is one of the victims, if the victim chooses.

That being said, "that person" is now aware of what I think, and I guess THAT is part of my motive.

It is up to that person to do the right thing.

I have no clue as to what the gossip is all about...but what I do know is that Sb is a valuable poster. what I have seen from you is support for a troll (BA) and a lack of support for some people here that needed some help(SMB and TST).

SB is a fair and kind poster

the same applies to LC...and we have not always seen eye to eye.

medc, my reply to sb was in no way a criticism of her. I apologize if it somehow seemed to be, due to my response to Clueless. I never said sb wasn't fair or valuable.

My reply to sb was me answering why I didn't post support to smb and tst. I won't bore you by repeating that answer. But it was not about sb.

And it looks as if the posts coming here to attack my posting is basically proving my point - it would have done more harm than good for me to post anything to smb's or tst's posts - even more so in the atmosphere of that time.

If we had SUPPORTED sb and her husband, would they have stayed? What would have that SUPPORT looked like? I assume that ADULTS have responsibility for taking care of themselves and that if they wanted to be here, they would have stayed. I don't understand..and I haven't kept up with the BA issues carefully..why they allowed him to make them leave this WONDERFUL FORUM..why they didn't fight for their RIGHT to be HERE...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Very eloquent medc. I have no response to that.

Have a great day!

Mimi, based on SMB's own words on this forum and extensive emails with them, i am left with the impression that yes...given more support they would have stayed.

In addition, the continued support of the obvious troll that had targeted them was at best insulting to both TST and SMB. MB became less valuable because of the coddling of trolls and failure of the board to stand in a unified fashion to fight off that foe and support a couple in need.

I DO!



Hearing you say that, I feel confused because I explained precisely what my motive is.



I completely agree with you. And it isn't my intent to make you feel as though you're getting the third degree.

If I were guessing, I would say that you believe that you have information that someone is not being genuine with other posters and that you fear that it might mislead those posters down a dangerous path? Is that correct?

If it is, what I am trying to communicate to you is that I see some alternative methods that might better help you to achieve your goal in trying to protect those you are concerned about.



Trying to force or guilt someone into doing what you think is the right thing is controlling.

I don't think you are a mean person. It isn't your motive I'm trying to bring to your attention. It's your METHOD.

The methods that people use tend to be the same methods they use in their interactions with people across the board - to get their needs met, to protect themselves, to protect others, etc...so it seems logical to me that the way that someone deals with conflict with people in general is likely to be the way they deal with conflict in their close relationships and their marriage, too.

For example, a husband that has been feeling ignored by his wife might decide to resolve that issue by making a snide comment to her, something like, "Well, you certainly don't seem to have time for ME lately."

Is that likely to inspire his wife to want to meet his needs? It certainly doesn't seem as though it would. If she did in fact decide to meet his need at that time, it would only be through making her feel bad in order to accomplish it, so the need got met, but at the expense of his wife's feelings. And his making that withdrawal doesn't help him in the bigger picture.

If I see someone that I like or care about doing something counter-productive, I prefer to bring it to their attention.

Knowing you as I do, I have found that to be true about you, as well. Many times I have seen you show care for others by piping up and offering to help or making a suggestion to someone else when the topic at hand was something you had experience with.

And using methods that hinder me and cause difficulties in my personal relationships is something that I have experience with. Thanks to others who took the time to point some of those out to me, I have since learned some new methods and would definitely share that knowledge with someone that I liked.



Maybe they don't...I don't know either. But even if they don't, it seems they would be more likely to realize the levity of pain that you can empathize with in those that have been hurt by their actions if it were done in a respectful, open manner rather than with suggestive innuendos designed to try to make them feel bad.

Someone else's wrongdoing doesn't justify open season on them. If that were the case, an awful lot of WS's would be perfectly justified in having affairs because their BS was mean to them, didn't meet their needs, etc...

Jayne,

I didn't take offense to your reply. I haven't checked into the other thread - surprised it has been locked!

I think MEDC was replying to another poster...

Anyway, I think I understand where you are coming from.

Froz,
I don't try to "control" anything. That's exactly my point. It is up to the poster to make the reveal of the self. And yes, I do believe it is in their own best interest to do so. I believe in the truth and the healing powers of the truth. Owning what we have done, allowing others to see us at our own most vulnerable, and asking for forgiveness. I see those as human traits most fragile and beautiful.

But it isn't up to me, or LadyC, or you, or anyone else to "out" someone. Or to force it. A person can state his or her own ideas on the matter. It doesn't result in "control". And maybe some posters do have strong feelings one way or the other, that is their right. The forum is for the exchange of the ideas of the posters, to gain, to grow in thought and emotion.

Personally, I think that most posters do hold something back. Because of what I do for a living, I find it is probably true of everyone, to some degree. However, it can be hurtful, destructive, even, if others rely on a person in a given context only to find that more information might show something different of him or her. I think that might be the point LadyC is making?

That's what I was trying to say. I guess I don't speak "soul", as someone pointed out awhile back ;-) JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

SB

If it isn't yours to tell, perhaps it isn't yours to hint about?

I have seen at least 2 people do this to others on the forum, and I find it offensive - hint and hint and insinuate and perhaps leave little poodle poops all around hoping that you'll catch someone sliding down and revealing their private parts?

What is your goal with this? To besmirch someone's character? Peel someone off the forum? Reveal something or some knowledge gained away from MB? Hoping that you can isolate someone so the wolves can ravage?

Here's a little opinion of mine.

There are many people who don't care what little poopy nugget you and others it seems, have smouldering in their hands while such longing to splat it about the forum burns.

I'm one of those that don't care what icky little secret you have that is just bursting through the seams to get out.


Edited to remove id

It already looks like that to me.

Let me get this straight - you think someone has to confess their "sins" (as evidently you and at least 2 others have determined) to the whole forum?

When did this forum become the church, when did it become God and when did so few get appointed as the Inquisitors? I thought we had moved past that mindset and I find it interesting in a scary sort of way to see just how thin the veneer is over the same beliefs and attitudes that we publicly pronounce so medieval.

Well, let's go right for the historical actions...

Peasant 1: We have found a witch, may we burn her?
Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 2: She turned me into a newt!
Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant 2: I got better.
Crowd: BURN HER ANYWAY!
Woman: I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!
Bedevere: But you are dressed as one.
Woman: They dressed me up like this. And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.
~Monty Python

Edited to remove id

Post deleted by mkeverydaycnt

I've been reading the whole thread.

It's not hard to tell who has been targeted.

And this isn't the first time it has happened to the same person.

it's just a suggestion. Even if the person was targeted...which I don't have a clue what this is about...you are drawing the bulleye with your post.

you might want to edit the post before that one too...I will delete my entries

It's gone, Mimi & medc.

I have seen this happen to the same person more than once. I admire this person even if people want to hint there are feet of clay - because I know we all have feet of clay.

So, while some might not have picked up on the target, I would hazard a guess that the target was aware of the not-so-hidden threat.

My apologies. I frankly find it appalling.

I can't say if I do or don't(find it appalling)...it all depends on the issue. Some things, IMHO, should be exposed here. others, not. If they are germane to the issues(marriage/infidelity) of the board, i think the topic should be handled honestly by all involved. If not..it is up to the poster to divulge whatever they choose. I don't think we all have feet of clay Graplin. Some people are just out there....others choose to be more guarded.

Whatever the issue is, i hope the person handles it in a manner consistent with their values.

As do I. I am extremely sorry for any part I had, in inadvertently propagating unsubstantiated innuendoes.

Trying to change the subject to something humorous:

graplin, your sig grossed me out at first... until I realized you were talking about shoes! Hushpuppies are also things you eat, with barbecue or catfish. lol
There's a certain restaurant in NC with great hushpuppies, which happen to look a lot like cat turds. So you suggested peeing on them too...

Wow, jayne, we all do respond to things from our own filters!

LA, have you been on the boards less lately, or is that just my perception? Is it on purpose? I can only imagine how much more people are being blessed with time with you IRL. I think of how I keep hearing your words from others, like those ripples that you talk about. How's your family?

Have you been able to keep up the gym routine? I was out sick (from the gym) for two weeks, but I'm so excited to be starting back tomorrow. I'll be thinking of you.

Rin,

I have been following your thread... you have a lot to be proud of yourself about.

It is a process for me I know that.

I hear ya Rin... sometimes perspective is everything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good to hear from you. Keep taking care of you and your beautiful DS's.

Jilly

Haven't seen an update in a while.

Did I miss it?

Or is it due?

SS

Wanted to answer...

:::pregnant pause:::

Awaiting in just two months birth of next granddaughter...

and no, you didn't miss an update.



Hard to sneak anything by you, SS.

Been reading you, though...

LA

LOL........

Good one.

Along those lines... aren't grand children fun?

We are up to 9. Glad I married young.

I can still out run them. We are taking them on a "grand kids" over night hike in the mountains in June.


Not sure if you want to do an update, or if it would even be helpful. You seem to be doing well these days.

Just tell me all the important things are OK, and I'll be happy.

If they are not, then start talking.

I have been winding down here, but for some reason, I started posting again lately. We'll see if it helps.

Joy in the journey.

SS

SS,

Nine for an overnight...oh, my! Of course, I remember that your original brood required tactical deployment for family enjoyment.

Nice to hear you laugh, SS.

I noticed your absence and your return...I think there's stalker blood in me...and I believe where God leads, you follow. In fact, I rely on that.

No updates here for now...I'm waiting for more changes on MB before going that far...just posting again took a bit...flexed my bravery muscles.

I will love up my DGD this weekend and think of you...multiplying her times nine...wait...eight more times? Darn...that kinda blew my circuit, I think. And I loved the movie Multiplicity...

I'm just gonna picture nine of her cloned. And love up on her for being just her (singular) for two days. Granny just doesn't have the math anymore.

(((((SS))))) As so many others here, MB is a great place with you in it.

LA

PS Okay, one story...my YS hurt his jaw when he fell Sunday while rock climbing. DH asks, "How far did you fall?" YS: "From my chin to the ground."

LA:

I'm glad to see you posting again.

I think your contributions here are valuable to many people, and you have helped me learn a lot about myself.

No matter what other, more-frequent posters may write, you should know that you are the only poster here that I read regularly. I would bet that there are others as well.

Thanks,

LoBoy

LoBoy! Great to see you again. Thank you for posting your opinion.

Great to know.

Thank you right back.

Does my repetition bother you at times? I ask, of course, because it bothers me.



LA

LA:

This doesn't sound like you..doesn't fit with how I've experienced you...

IMO, it's UNCARING of you to throw out tidbits about yourself to those of us who have grown attached to you...you are TEASING us with bits of information?

Seems to me that you are giving POWER to the BAD GUYS or whoever or whatever is bothering you...

What happened to your belief in OPENNESS and HONESTY?

What do you have TO FEAR?

I don't get it, LA.

I don't get it at all.

I'm disappointed.

You're giving POWER to MBers? You want MBers policies to determine YOUR CHOICES about posting?

Mimi!!! I love seeing you on my thread...I swear, it's like seeing your beautiful face, smiling at me.

I appreciate knowing how you experienced me and how this is different...seems dishonest to you; my fear unreasonable.

I'm working on it...thank you for being here and sharing your growth and self consistently. Makes a difference in my life.

LA

LovingAnyway Quotes in Bold

SS,

Nine for an overnight...oh, my! Of course, I remember that your original brood required tactical deployment for family enjoyment.

Wow, a poet too. I'm impressed.
We won't have all 9 on the packpack portion of this. Only the ones who can walk a half mile by themselves. The others will stay in a cabin near the trail head.


No updates here for now...I'm waiting for more changes on MB before going that far...just posting again took a bit...flexed my bravery muscles.

I read what Mimi said. I know she is serious, but part of it made me smile.

LA, You get to do what YOU want !!

Sure we care, but I expect you to do what is best for YOU. Of course, I have learned that friends, if they are REAL friends, will call you on things when you need it. Perhaps that is what Mimi is doing. She has pretty good insight. (SS smiles and raises eyebrows - and hopes more facial expression helps you pick up on what's left unsaid.)

I will love up my DGD this weekend and think of you...multiplying her times nine...wait...eight more times? Darn...that kinda blew my circuit, I think. And I loved the movie Multiplicity...

With 8 kids, the grand kids start adding up fast. 5 of our children are married. Three are (single) and still at home. The twins turn 15 this week. They still spoil their dad. He loves it.

I'm glad you get to spend time with your GD. ISN'T IT FUN !!

I'm just gonna picture nine of her cloned. And love up on her for being just her (singular) for two days. Granny just doesn't have the math anymore.

I can't picture you as a Grandmother. I can't picture me as having grandchildren either, but the facts remain. <grin>
Yes, enjoy her. They grow up so fast.

(((((SS))))) As so many others here, MB is a great place with you in it.

The same goes for you LA.
I so hope you are able to continue the help for which many have long been thankful.



PS Okay, one story...my YS hurt his jaw when he fell Sunday while rock climbing. DH asks, "How far did you fall?" YS: "From my chin to the ground."

LOL.
It's all the more funny because my boys climb too. Thanks for sharing.

Just tell me if you are OK. Or mostly OK.
Prayers continue.

SS

I'm not at all sure what you are saying here...

I don't REALLY know LA but she MEANS alot to ME...to the very bottom of MY HEART

She is a STRANGER who definitely CHANGED MY LIFE...like AN ANGEL here on earth...

I consider her more than JUST A FRIEND...

This is NO JOKE to ME...not to be taken at all LIGHTLY with "raised eyebrows" or whatever...I don't think I appreciate what you have said but, of course, you were not clear and hope LA will "pick up on what's left unsaid"...I certainly didn't get it...

I know LA can do what she wants to do...and I support that...

But I was SPEAKING MY TRUTH as SHE has MENTORED me in doing...

SS...yes, mostly okay.

Found out my weekend with DGD begins tomorrow night...earlier than expected...wish me energy, 'k? She loves the outdoors like you do...so we walk a lot. She points to my shoes and waits by the front door...again and again.

This passion only manifested after she began walking around the first of this year.

Funniest thing...she seems to feel the world through her feet. Seriously. She consciously walks on different textures...rock beds, sidewalk concrete, road pavement, different patio materials...her tiny little feet stepping over them first...then she backs up to pick up the texture...doesn't rub it...tests it for sound...she drops rocks to hear their different musical notes. Then I coax for her to return them to their beds.

She refused at first (like her father, she said "no" more than anything)...until I dropped the rock back and she heard it differently than when she dropped it on the sidewalk. We are earth movers, SS. And listeners.

She also likes to sit in raingutters...the concrete narrow strips beneath the gutter spout. Cracks me up because we stop for a sitting time in each. There are a lot in our complex.

She's crazy about dogs and cats...knows how to pet nice...and shriek with excitement to bust their eardrums from ten yards away. Talented.

It's like she's absorbing input...not seeing where she moves the world, but more on how the world moves into her. I can't stop watching her...never has a blessing felt so weighty and real to me in real time before.

Luckily, we'll have great walking weather for her visit. I don't know why I say walking...we really go for stopping...at everything...with small steps inbetween.

She can say "hey-whoa" if you hand her your cell phone. And thank you. And as of last week, "yes" had surpassed "no" for most probable response.

Don't get me started on her beauty, btw.



LA

What I got, Mimi, from SS was to trust my real friends...like you...and to share, if I choose, because I trust you to call me on my stuff...from love.

I felt loved in your post.

I think he was raising his massive, overlapping eyebrows for exercise...heehee...okay, not really...rather, AT me...

I heard you ask, Mimi, to hold my fear and act anyway.

So I emailed you.

LOL

Does that count????? {{{{{{Mimi--not a stranger to my heart}}}}}

LA

It's OK Mimi.
I was supporting you.

You have a lot of class Mimi. I enjoy reading your posts.
My smile meant a lot of things. It's hard to communicate some things with the written word. Body language and facial expression can accomplish a lot that my key board has a hard time with. Sometimes describing facial expression in type can convey subtleties more quickly than typing the whole thing out as I am doing here.

I smiled because of how intense you are........ and how much you care. LA knows you care, and she is thinking more about what you said. She's trying to decide if she will post. I was trying to acknowledge her thoughts, that I knew what was going on in her mind, and that I was OK with whatever she does.

However, She still has to answer to you, and the others that care about her. That's another reason for the smile and raised eyebrows. I was telling her "I'm OK, but what are you going to tell all these others?"
Going along with that, the smile communicates the irony of coming to a form where no one really knows who we are, but where we still have obligations (in a sense) to friends we make here.

Thanks for asking Mimi. You are one in a million. I mean that in the best possible way it can be used. No hidden meanings this time.

SS

Thanks Y'ALL..

I am rather INTENSE...Aren't I?

Loads of folks have described me that way...

And now on this forum..

OH MY...

Oh, the LIFE of a GODDESS...

(Open hand on forehead)

Thanks LA........ I get a lot of things from your Walk with GD.

Choosing to tell about that....... means you have lots of good times, and that bad times are not overwhelming.

I can feel a little strain in the way you tell the story. No..... maybe it's just that you are a little tired. Stress causes tired though...... It would be easier if I could see you talk, and hear your voice. then I'd know what to ask, and how to ask it.

I wish Mimi could see me smile when I type... it's a benign smile, no hidden motives. It's a "you'll be Ok" smile.

Looks like nothing is going on that you can't cope with, though coping takes energy, and makes one tired sometimes.

SS smiles.

Mimi,
Intense can be overbearing........ but that's not what I get from you.

From you, I get care, concern, and the feeling that because you care, you won't just let it drop.

That is a good intense. I think once people understand it, they are fine with it. It's always nice to know people care.

SS smiles again......... nods encouragement.