Admittedly, I have not been keeping up with much of what goes on here on MB, but this line caught my attention.

It bothers me.

First, I like noodle. I think noodle is a very good person, and so this is not an attack on noodle. I have no interest in that. That said, I think the remark in enlightening with regards to a troubling perception I have.

Bias. Inequality. Grudge. These are the first words that come to my mind when I read this sentence. I wonder why?

In exploring this feeling… I first take notice of ‘FWS’ being used instead of ‘WS’. Hmm… interesting. At least to me. Normally, it is a pretty big distinction between ‘FWS’ and ‘WS’ around here, but not in this remark. This remark specifies ‘FWS’ and a fear they should have, which seems to imply a grudge. Like there exists an unforgivable sin. Does there?

I believe that what God sees is sin. Not certain sins being less or more. Just sin. That being the case, in the eyes of God, from my perspective, affairs are no worse nor better than other forms of sin. Not less. Not more. I ask no one to stand with me on this point.

Now, I of course understand the human quality of ranking things. We rank everything from football teams to restaurants. Everything finds a place in some pecking order. In the sin pecking order, most people might have an affair at the top of the ‘worst sin list’. Some might not. Who gets to decide? A forum with a vast majority being the victim class posting their hurts and pains? No disrespect, but I imagine it would be really difficult to not follow some sort of groupthink in this emotionally charged atmosphere.

I wonder if anyone will even inform me they thought about the groupthink remark before blasting me for saying it(having said it a few times before and seeing some others address it with equally ugly results… I admit an assumption here)?

There is usually plenty of good advice for people to help them with their current situations, be it exposure to end an affair, how to cope during recovery and various other bits of information.

And then there is this quote.

Then my mind wanders to the number of BSs around here that offered me advice. That told me they wanted to help.

Were they sitting there thinking differing, cruel thoughts while typing this ‘help’. Were they sitting there, doing all they could to not act like they were on a higher horse than I? What makes them so special? They got cheated on? My mother died when I was a child… so get in line for the pity party.

And then I wonder about the sleeping unarmed. Like maybe I should have a weapon to protect myself from my ‘crazed BS’. It is no secret that I had an affair. I did something that hurt my spouse and was completely despicable. No news there. I have stopped engaging in such things. I have seen clearly that is was a mistake. All lies that even I was convinced of. Repented. Turned away from the sin. Owned it and not blamed it on her. I am not telling her it was her not doing whatever that lead me to an affair. But now I still have to live in fear because my BS might just kill me one night?

How long is this justified? How long does the BS get to be the victim? What an inflammatory question to be sure… but there must exist a time when being the victim stops.

If the BS is dreaming of bludgeoning the FWS even after the ‘F’ is truly earned… who really has the problem?

So it is bedtime. I have to go… probably leaving a ton of holes in my thoughts here. But what I felt is out.

I did not like reading the remark. Felt like prejudice to me. I think it is a token of a general atmosphere around here.

An opinion, right or wrong, I am fully entitled to.

So… hoping for a debate. Been a while since I had one.

Well, I'll leave this one to Noodle.

But I do see some truth in what you write. One of my biggest heroines here is Aussies Wife. She and her husband have recovered, and even brought Mikey into the world. She is always around to help WW's, giving excellent support and advice. Still she beats herself up for past errors.

At some point, the past is the past. I forget if you are a Christian or not, but the Lord tells us that our sins will be forgiven, and forgotten as if they had never happened.

Hmm. Interesting Patriot. I gave up my victim status a long time ago. It takes time I guess for the hurt to subside and the amount of time required is different for everyone. I would not take Noodles comment too much to heart.

I always wonder if there is ever a point when you truly don't feel anything when you think about the past? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I know that people get to the point where they have moved on and no longer feel like a victim or feel the need to bring it up. I just wonder if deep down inside when they recall what happened if there ever is a time when they feel no pain over what happened?

I'll "stab" at this (just figure of speech & an attempt at a bad joke!) Partiot. But, before I start, I think you have served our country and if I am correct then "thank you very much".

I am a BS and utlimately it led to the demise of our M. I have spoken with many BS's and can honestly say that no matter how hard the FWS tries to make things right, no matter the changes they make, the love they give, the honesty, trust,etc. they help rebuild; they will never be the BS and by such will never completely understand how it felt to be betrayed, to have your kids hurt and crying at the thought of mommy or daddy leaving for another, of long nights at home in bed crying and pleading with God to return the WS from the OP's bed, never know the anger, hurt, pain, devestation that never really goes away (yes it gets duller but is stil in there somewhere).

I will not speak for Noodle but I think BS's everywhere would be lying if they didn't at times whether recovered or not want to see the WS hurt just a little compared to what they suffered through. I see your post about a pity party and get over it. That to me would be the opposite of Noodle's post. There is no getting over it. Most BS's will never get over it, never. They may accept it, get through it with the help of loving and attentive FWS's but never completely get over it. See something was stolen, taken and broken that can't be glued back together. Most BS's will never ever look at someone with the same innocence, never completely trust someone, always wonder why, and more.

None of this makes the FWS's evil just as being betrayed does not make the BS holy. I truly admire those who have earned their F titles and have taken it upon themselves to help the BS rebuild a new and better marriage than before. But, I understood the comment by Noodle as being more liturgy than actual.

I have never been a WS but a long time ago I cheated on a boyfriend in a long-term relationship. Thank God he never found out about it. I have to admit that I never had any understanding of the type of pain cheating causes until it was done to me.

When I did it to my then boyfriend I had a million justifications and I didn't think it was such a huge deal.

Well when it happened to me as a gf you cannot imagine how much agony I suffered and still suffer as a wife.

I accepted the cheater back and later married him because I thought I would be able to forgive and forget easily. However, this has not been the case.

I have forgiven but I cannot forget at all. When I think about it to this day it still hurts and I live with the fear that it may happen again.

If I had known that this would still be such a problem I honestly would have never married this man.

You cannot imagine how much it hurts and how much of a big deal it is until you are in those shoes.

I have had my moments where I felt like Noodle.

I think perhaps the F in the FWS was perhaps an unintentional add-on, which changes the meaning of the remark significantly.

But I'll wait till Noodle weighs in.

SD

I'm no better than you Patriot

only more handsome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm no better than my wife

I think the quote in question is characterizing the demons that occasionally find themselves festering in the mind of BS's, in relation to their spouse and their lives only. I'll allow Noodle to explain it further...as I'm sure she will to satisfaction.

Bias on the boards. Sure, especially when the position can be utilized to support an otherwise failing argument. But it sometimes goes both way (i.e.- the BS's are just bitter). There are times Mrs. W acknowledges to me that there are just some things she can't say or that she needs to be very careful to insure not offending any BS's (usually the newer ones that may be slightly more sensitive to "listening" to a FWS). Just the way it goes around here.

BTW, can you imagine the thoughts going through a BS's mind as they assist and support their newbie FWS through withdrawal????? It's times like those that Noodle's quote is quite humorous...satirical.

Mr. Wondering

Like Koolaid drinking perhaps. LOL.


Never was a truer word spoken. I had to console my wife over the breakup of her "relationship" with the OM. Um yeah right. Um... excuse me but aren't you MARRIED TO ME?????????? and she wants to talk about her "relationship" with another man breaking up???? Huh? Hand me the tissues.

LOL.

I wasn't very sympathetic then because I hadn't found MB and really was at a loss to understand what was happening. I can laugh now but it was no joke back then.

Patriot, I wonder if you really understand the depth of damage that is caused by an affair in order to ask this question. Dr. Harley likens it to a RAPE. I have likened it to the death of a child in terms of intensity of trauma. [although much worse, because adultery is intentional] It is one of the most traumatic acts a spouse can experience.

A normal, healthy person is supposed to feel great anger at being so unjustly abused. That is a normal reaction. When the WS stops the affair, that feeling does not go away overnight. When a BS forgives a WS, it does not mean forgotten. In fact, I did not feel the full force of my RAGE until the 8 month mark.

I don't feel fury against my H now, but you can bet your [censored] I did for at least the first year. There were times in the first year, that I felt sheer hate and disgust for him. So, I do understand noodle's sentiment very much and I think a FWS should try and understand the depths of the wound that has been inflicted. When you understand that, noodle's quote makes perfect sense, although it was satirical.

Believer, I am Christian and stated something I believed because of God in my initial post, so yes is your answer. Additionally, I agree with what you said about forgiven and forgotten, but in ‘book of life’ terms and not human terms. I do not subscribe to the erasure of human memory but I do believe that the interpretation appropriate to what you stated is that the sin will be erased from one’s book of life and that will be that.

Others, bear in mind that I am not stating the victim status is unwarranted. Nor am I saying rage and anger are inappropriate. I think those emotions are appropriate for transgressions levied against us. So to be destroyed because you were betrayed is completely understandable to me. I never said otherwise.

That said, and being a believer, I will certainly NEVER see the usage of transgression levied against me as justification for transgression against another. And that is my point.

Revenge is an evil decision. Plain and simple. If you choose it, you choose it. No one makes you do it. No one makes you have no choice but to do it. And it is this decision I see not getting owned by people… and that bothers me.

The example of a BS consoling the WS about the loss of the OP is easy to see as painful. I totally understand the ideas here. Believe it or not. Here is my question. Why did you choose it? Why did you do it? Why try to overcome such a huge mountain for this person who betrayed you? Because you were in shock? I know frozen was. She was in ridiculous shock. I was even in shock… but she was far worse. Makes perfect sense really. But, she still made choices and they are her responsibility.

I guess that is where I am heading…. Thinking to one’s self that I am justified to hurt this person for what they have done to me seems out of line when the victim chooses to continue being in the relationship. If you choose to be in the relationship, then you choose. Sure it sucks to have to leave. Sure it sucks to have to stay. Still a choice there, isn’t there?

Another idea I have not fully formed yet is a ‘blank check’ theory. I am not sure how to convey it but basically, in my mind, it seems pretty easy to feel as though you have a ‘blank check’ to do anything you want under the ‘justification’ of “You betrayed me”. Even easier when you add in “this is the consequence of your actions against me”. Using the idea of absolute power corrupts absolutely, I become a little concerned about the lack of checks and balances in the system here. Not a fully worked out thought… but there is the rough draft of it.

Oh… I agree that Mr W is more handsome than I, but my skills will prevail in the ‘feats of strength” events <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I wonder where noodle of nuggets is?

Sorry didn't see this 'till just now...

It's had a lot of discussion already so I'll just address in pieces and anything left over that I miss we can get to later.

Starting with the F in WS. There are two reasons for this. First I was talking to a Fws and thinking of all of the other FWSs who are just...shocked...and disbelieving that their BSs could be capable of >fill in the blank<.

This is amazing to me. If anyone on the whole world should be well familiar with human frailty it is a FWS. Not a WS. A FWS. I am ready to applaud when an active WS recognizes that it gets darker at night and lighter during the day....FWSs are cognizant and engaged and observant.

Personally I trust myself more than anyone else..not because I am better than they are ..but because I have the whole story of me. I know what I'm thinking and feeling and what motivates me and what degree of anything I am at.
I only know about other people what they tell me or show me.
I assume that most people would agree with this perspective.


So imagine my befuddlement when a person who has become *very* aware that their own personal boundaries, ethics, self control, whathaveyou has failed miserably...retains this naive and unhealthy level of trust for a person they have good reason to suspect may not be playing with a full deck at the moment.

Then you hear the SAME statements from a FWS that BSs in denial make...they wouldn't do that...they are too spiritual...they say they would never lower themselves...they work too much...they wouldn't have time

...and I think what are YOU chopped liver?

Didn't you have ethics? A job? A soul? Time constraints?

Which leads me deeper into another thought I have not necessarily specific to WSs or affairs but to people in general and how RELIANT we are on our structures to BE firm even if we choose to step outside them. We recognize and expect them to hold even if WE reject them.

Everyone laughs about the criminal who says "I know my rights" when they get arrested. Even though they rejected the laws they still expect everyone else to abide by them.

I bet not ONE OP in the whole world expects to walk into their home and find their innocent child tied to a chair missing a few fingers as a result of the BS taking off the gloves. Does that mean that the BS has the right to do such a thing? Absolutely not..it is shocking and appalling...but I find it very STRANGE that a person who is willing to victimize others has no expectation or realization that others may just as easily reject what is right and go with their feelings as they are.

More later..

I certainly agree with you here. I believe I fully understand the human frailty issue and I full believe that ANYONE is capable of ANYTHING.

We are all, as it were, human.

Don't you need a new signature line, ya silly OKIE???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Patriot there are a multitude of reasons why BS's choose to remain in the marriage.

-They still love their WS
-They want their children to grow up in a whole family
-Shock
-Fear

But yes, Definitely a choice - no question. Sometimes not a rational choice but still a choice.


Well part of forgiveness IMO is that a BS gives up the right to exact revenge on their now hopefully "F"WS.

For my part I made a conscious decision and told my FWW that I would never use her affair against her to win an arguement. I would never even bring it up during any arguement, unless the affair WAS the arguement.

I understand where you are coming from Patriot.

Patriot:

Didn't they teach you in the military never throw a hand grenade unless you really wanted to clean out the room?

Noodle's quote stopped me at first. But then, I thought, that's Noodle. She feels that all WS should be hung by thier thumbs. For at least a short period of time... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Then they can graduate to a "F" if they earn it. And Noodle will make sure you earn it. She has a supreme BS detector...

And I am OK with that.

Because this site is about marriages. Not Murder, or armed robbery. We just tend to concentrate on this sin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And if one morning I wake up dead, I will understand why. And in this state, My BS wouldn't even have to go to prison.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

How's that for an eye opener! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

chickens! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mel:

I was going to add that you would kick the box out from under the WS. So the thumbs would hurt worse... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

So how cuddly is Mr. ML in that suit of armor he needs for protection???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]If FWSs knew what was lurking in the minds and hearts of their BSs most of the time they'd never sleep unarmed. <~~~ Noodle
[/color]

hey ... who gave you permission to discuss MY (previous) sig line without my permission???

huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I read Noodle's comment
and it went *zing* in my head

because it is just too true

I recall restless nights next to my snoring H just months after D day and hating his very GUTS for being able to sleep while my head was exploding in pain

and so the freshly betrayed has wicked wicked thoughts

some of them REALLY not nice
chainsaw massacre level of not-nice
put some poop in your shoes not-nice

and it was just too funny for Noodle to put that raw honesty just right OUT THERE for all the world to see

this has NOTHING to do with YOU Pat ... unless it is Froz thinking the carnage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

this is the BS admitting they own a dark place themselves ...it's not all light & roses & tap shoes ... not all-the-the-time is the BS wondering ~~~> "how I can meet my FWH's ENs today"

sometimes it's lethally judgmental
gruesome murderous thoughts
and these thoughts are NOT pleasant to the thinker <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

but.... it's not applicable to other WS's ... just our own ... and there is a pretty short shelf life for these thoughts ... because eventually they round out to "But, I love this man"

I haven't thought about putting poop in his shoes for months and months

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

awwwwwwwwwwww, I could never pop a cap on his [censored], he is too cute! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

he's cute alright ... but not THAT cute

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Aside from being dead on accurate...this also ties in to part two of my very long thoughts on this matter so I may be moving it aroung via quotage to keep it fresh 'till I have time to finish.

He is cuter than a BUG!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Noodle

I totally "get it"

your comment was an honest observation of the awfulness of the early-recovery BS state of mind ... and REALLY has nuttin' to do with the "F" in front of WS

we BS can be loathsome and sickening in our own right!

... and Patriot ~~~> YOU thought this was a judgement on YOU !!!... oh no soldier ... we BS reserve the right to poke fun at ourselves ...

Noodle was judging our BS-crazy-azzes

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You read it in context though..is that really apparent from the quote all by itself?

It looks like it to ME but I wrote and thought it in context, I'm biased.

Besides which I have been wanting to climb on this topic for a long time now and here's my opportunity.

well climb on then

I remember being totally nutzo
and viscious
and thinking the darkest thoughts I had ever thought
and saying the most cruel things
I owned a poison mind at the time

... and look at me now ... I adore my beloved sweetie-pie

his shoes are safe

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]If FWSs knew what was lurking in the minds and hearts of their BSs most of the time they'd never sleep unarmed. <~~~ Noodle [/color]

thinking about this in MB terms

this is descriptive of what happends when ...

the BS "taker" becomes a lunatic at the same time the BS love bank suddenly declares bankruptcy

in Godfather terms, it's ~~~> go to the mattresses

Pep

This makes me think of that night EARLY IN RECOVERY..short of another FALSE RECOVERY, finding out about RENEWED CONTACT.. when I was ranting and raving around my house with my coat on and only my nightgown underneath... looking for my glasses...

"I CAN'T FIND MY GLASSES, FWH..WHERE ARE MY GLASSES??"..

I had this thought that if I killed the OW..I would be relieved of this nightmare..

You get it..if she didn't exist anymore..it would solve the problem

And if I COULD SEE..I could easily make the drive to her house...

THANK GOD HE HAD HIDDEN MY GLASSES...

Next morning: FWH: "Were you looking for these?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I *love this mimi...it is soooo illustrative of my point.

now if THAT isn't a snapshot of going to the mattresses nothing is

LOL Mimi

Pep

I think Patriot's initial post highlights, above all else, what a heroic effort is made by the BS in attempting to recover the marriage.

A WS, by definition, has allowed feelings to win out over committment. In a recovery attempt, the BS does the opposite - sticking to committment in the face of intense desires to be destructive and punitive.

I wonder if some WSs find it difficult to imagine that someone could pull against their own emotional gravity, for no reason other than a committment to principle and responsibility? When it's so much easier (in the short term) to give in to the overwhelming feelings of rage and hurt?

I think Noodle's quote shows clearly the black rage that the BS is having to wrestle with, and the fact that so many manage to keep away from the kitchen knives is a testament to self-control.

A few weeks after d-day, I discovered that H and SOW had kindly planted a shrub in our garden, after a romantic visit to a garden centre. I had been remarkably self-disciplined up to then, but this was a discovery too far. I raced out in nightie and slippers, in torrential rain, and dug up the s*dding shrub with maniacal energy. I was drenched, covered in mud and on the verge of absolute loss of control. H watched me wide-eyed from the patio; I think it was the first time he broke out of his coma of self-absorption to see how much anger was inside of me.

Somehow, I managed to dig it out properly, get it in a pot and deliver it to an elderly friend for replanting.

(It died. I think my anger shrivelled it.)

TA

TA:

I must have looked much like you that night. I felt crazed..if not crazy....

It really struck a nerve with my H. I bet it did yours, too.

It helped him to appreciate what major psychological work it took for me to contain those feelings day to day during early recovery.

A large part of him was GUILTY..still is..so he was almost waiting and expecting me to LASH OUT at him..PULL OUT THE KITCHEN KNIFES <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..but I didn't..he felt he DESERVED it...

For my H, my EMOTIONAL CONTAINMENT during early recovery increased even more the huge amount of RESPECT for me that was established while working the MB PLANS...

I found that I was ENRAGED even moreso at the FOW because she never seemed to have any REMORSE...

LMAO

Isn't it interesting how we will assign meaning to things said by others in relation to our self-perception?

This is what I have learned from this conversation, & another conversation I've been having in real life.

Must make a mental note of this... I am certain it will be of use later.

Pep

and

I could have written this.

My husband was planning to divorce because he thought surely I would try to kill him when I found out.

Wait! You forgot the addendum....

our sins will be forgiven, and forgotten as if they had never happened... unless we're members of of the 3% percent club.