My wife and I have had our share of disagreements, but during a period of particularly intense disagreements, I found out that my wife was e-mailing a male "friend" regularly, complaining about me behind my back, sharing intimate details of our marriage, encouraging him to call her at any time, and even suggesting that she might use a pay phone as as not to "get into trouble" with me. I found out that there had been meetings with him to "get together" that were kept totally secret from me. In turn, about this time I was accused of having an affair, of not understanding her special "friendship". She me that she had fixed this friend up with 2 of her girlfriends so how could she be emotionally or romantically connected with him. I found out from several of her e-mails to him that she was not going to let me see her cell phone bills because that was her business, and that I was "paranoid" about her.

Subsequently, over a period of months she began not coming to bed with me, ever...staying up to 2, 3, and 4AM. There were always excuses, i.e., not tired, insomnia, stress, etc. I asked her to just come to bed with me and then leave if she could not fall asleep, and never pushed for physical intimacy. When she did come to bed, she would purposefully wake me (even though I have to get up early for work). I later found out that she had been systematically snooping my e-mails - for what reason, I was not sure. I offered to give her the passowrd to my e-mail if she would do the same - and she refused.

My strongest gut inution tells me that she had/has an EA and possibly a physical one as well.

Help.

I'm sorry you find yourself here. The first thing I would tell you is that your gut instinct is normally right. I'd agree with your intuition, it sounds as if your wife is having an affair. In fact, I would be shocked if you didn't discover the same in a very short time - if you listen to your instincts, the pros here, and follow the advice you will undoubtedly receive.

I would recommend you move over to the "Just Found Out" section of the forums and read the first couple stickied posts - you may be surprised to read that some of these signs you are seeing are very typical of someone who is involved in an affair.

Don't panic, don't accuse, stay calm and do some homework here on what your next steps should be before you do anything.

Best wishes, I hope I'm horribly mistaken -

Every red flag is here that indicated your W is now a WW.

Start reading everything you can regarding exposure and Plan A

Time to start snooping and getting your evidence together.

Do you know who the Om is?

Is he married?

Do you have children?

How long have you been married?

Experts will be jumping in directly. Welcome to the best place you can be under these circumstances.

One word - yes.

Please answer chrisner's questions. It will help us help you.

sorry you have to be here.

Thank you so much. I have been suffering about this in silence. The OM is not married, this is my 2nd marriage and my wife's 4th, and we have no children of our own. Once I discovered that my W was systematically e-snooping on me - I figured that there had to be a reason why - perhaps to learn what I was doing so that she could plan her events accordingly. I purchased spylogger software to put on her computer but because of her e-mail snooping - she found that I had done so -- and became extremely agitated and accusatory.

Recently she suggested that we needed a "break" from each other, and usually when there is an argument she will inevitably state that "things are not working out", "you might have to leave (the house)", "you freak out over some things all fo a sudden", etc. I also found that she bought new Victoria's secret lingerie that I never see. She does not work and has ample time to do anything she wanted to do. I have remained very emotionally supportive of her but even so, she states that it's normal not to want to have sex with a spouse that much after a year or 2 of marriage.

And there's that BIG red flag.

That this is happening only after a year or two of being M'd to you is another BIG red flag.

Why did her last 3 Ms end? Have you spoken to the xHs to get their side of the story?

The story of the Scorpion and the Frog comes immediately to mind...

Guess what, my EX WW and I had a good sex life up until she had an affair. After she started PA with OM she had no interest in me.

Yes, unfortunately your wife is having an affair and likely a physical one. You need to start reading about plan A (the carrot and the stick piece of plan A), expose the Affair to those who can put pressure on both of them to stop, read and listen to the people with insight here. We've all been there and want to help you.

Sorry your here JJ.

HAving been where you are I have to say all the signs are there, especially this one:


If it's not for you, who is it for?

There are some good people here who can help. Hang around and maybe you can save your M.

but why would you want to?

cheating on you after a year?

her 4th marriage?

From her comments about "it's normal not to want to have sex with a spouse that much after a year or 2 of marriage", it sounds like she is permenantly on the "have fun for a few years, then move on to the next fun ride" track.

She is not a wife. She doesnt want to BE a wife.
Find someone who does.

JJ,

Glad to see you found your way over to GQII.

There are numerous signs that tell you there is an EA going on.

The two big red flags regarding the potential PA is the Victoria Secrets purchase "obviously not for you". Also the lack of SF with you. To her it mostlikely feels like "If I'm having sex with my H, I am cheating on OM".

You have reason to be very concerned this is a PA.

Who's name is the cellphone in? You can gain access via the internet call logs with most carriers.

Thanks to all for your helpful responses - they help me to keep things in perspective, despite that sickening feeling.

Excerpts from her e-mails to him:

"And feel free to call me on my cell at any time"

"Weekend probably better to get together..."

What gets me is how people can cheat to their S's face and say all those re-assuring things....

JJ,

I found out that there had been meetings with him to "get together" that were kept totally secret from me.

PLUS +

I also found that she bought new Victoria's secret lingerie that I never see.

EQUALS = YES!! To your original question.

I must side with Techie on this one and ask

"WHY THE %##$&!%#@@ WOULD YOU WANT TO STAY??"

Life is too short my friend. Cut your losses NOW.

Some folks in these sacred Halls of MB have been embroiled in this cancerous drama for WAY TOO long...and it is still going on!!

Just curious if you and she got together while one or both of you were still married to others?

krk

Gentlemen,

Encouraging our newest BS to "Cut his losses" now hardly seems to be sound advice. If he didn't care about his situation, his wife, or himself he wouldn't be here in the first place.

I would recommend, alot more softly, that every BS reflect on how they got to this place and ask themselves if they still love their spouse. If they do still love their spouse, then a long road which will NOT be painless is in front of them. They are about to go forward with what will be one of the noblest things they have ever done, and there will be scars.

I won't pretend to know how much you love your spouse, but I'll encourage you to do what you think is right JJ. If you love your wife, the right thing to do is fight for your marriage - you will never regret it, you will never forget it, and whether or not you are successful you will earn the respect of a great many people around you. Your self-respect will not suffer from this.

Give us all a bit more history on this, and that will help us help you.

Sorry you're having to deal with problems such as this, JJ, but you're in the right place. MB folks have faced, or are still dealing with, betrayal and deceit. They know what you're feeling because they've felt the same emotions. Never forget you're not alone. MB is your support group.

BTW, I don't think there is any doubt your wife is engaging in an emotion affair (EA), which is nothing less than emotional adultery, and it may already have turned physical. You may need to apply some of the suggestions in the "Spying 101" thread to assure yourself of this. See the link in my signature area.

Right now, you have a big decision to make. Frankly, you need to make a cold-blooded analysis on whether you WANT to remain married to a woman who would turn to another man so soon in your marriage OR whether you think your love for her can remain strong through months of hard work to bring her back to the marriage. If you decide the latter, Dr. Harley's program gives you the strongest possibility of achieving that purpose...but it's not a guarantee.

Before you make your decision, I think it's important to understand Dr. Harley's long practice and career in counseling has shown the chances of recovering a marriage are decreased significantly if there are no children of the marriage.

So, JJ, tell us what you want to do, okay? Take your time. It's a life changing decision and you'll want to be sure of what you want to do.

Hang in there, JJ. We're here to walk with you through this terrible time in your life.

Thank you Longhorn. She continues to keep me totally in the dark about this person, keeping everything secret. Or gets into crazymaking mode by saying that I am making wild accusations, have anger issues, show no trust in our marriage, etc.

There has not been a single look-you-in-the-eye apology such as "I am really sorry you to have caused you pain or distress", etc. Instead, it's always from an arrogant stance that I have no right to be questioning her interaactions with this man, that "something must be wrong with me" for even imagining there could be, etc. And believe me, I am not a suspicious individual. But I have learned when my intuition strongly and loudly is shouting something to me and I feel sick inside, there is a solid basis for it.

I do not believe I can do much if one's WS cannot even accept the reality of her actions or the pain it causes; perhaps that's the most sickening part - her emotional bond to this man (i.e.,. because of their great "friendship") is more important than any discomfort I have with it.

Okay, JJ, there are some things you should know.

First, your wife is using a manipulative (and deceitful) technique known as "gaslighting" to keep you off balance and keep you from discovering details of her adultery. Any, and every, time when she gets into "something is wrong with you for even suspecting me" or the more direct "you must be crazy for thinking that way..." those are attempts to manipulate you. Google just the word "gaslighting" and you'll get an education on the process.

Here's a link to a thread here on MB on the subject:

[color:"red"]Mulan's Thread On Gaslighting[/color]

Pardner, accept the fact that everything that comes out of your WW's mouth right now is a lie. She will lie when the truth would serve her better, as Grandma used to say. She will protect the fantasy world she and her partner in adultery have built as viciously as any lioness protecting her pride. She will use her children (lying to them also) to gain any advantage she can to deceive you. She may have already introduced her children and any of yours that are in the home to the OM and she will think it's perfectly normal and acceptable to do so!!! She will tell other people (your friends, pastor, your family, her family, etc., etc.) vile lies about you, hinting at abuse or any other explanation she can devise in her mind to justify what she's doing.

Accept the fact that she will do these things, JJ. Here on MB, JJ, we’ve all seen it before. The complaints you have about the way you’re being treated are the same ones we had back when we were in the same situation. JJ, a curious fact about adultery is that no individuals involved in cheating on their spouses break new ground. For talking purposes, they all do just about the same things to their spouses...and they speak almost identical words in the process.

I’ll say it again. You need to read the thread “Spying 101” and you need to do it as soon as you possibly can. Friend, you need to mount an almost military style surveillance operation, putting your WW and your marriage under a microscope to find out exactly is going on. When you DO find out, JJ, it will be like a breath of fresh air. You will know with an absolute assurance you are not crazy.

Pardner, please click on that link below, before or after you read the thread about organizing a marital recovery. I think both will be eye opening.

Finally, you will NOT get an apology from your WW right now. You might not get one for many months down the road. Most wayward spouses do not feel apologetic about what they’re doing. Accept this and get on with things.

Okay, JJ, it’s time for a commitment, one way or the other. Are you ready to do some very hard, painful work to get your marriage back on track or is it your analysis things have gone too far and the hurt and betrayal you’ve already suffered are too much to bear? Don’t misunderstand me, sir. There will be more hurt you’ll have to suffer before things even begin to get better.

Tell us what you want to do, JJ.

Bump

Where did you go, JJ?

Longhorn,

Thanks very much for your post. I was reading on gaslighting and concluded that I'm living at Gaslighting Central (with me being gaslighted!).

Some behaviors are very concerning and seem to be happening more and more. For example, when I'm lying down in a darkened room with a migraine after working 12 -14 days, she will come in and manage to start an argument, the nuts and bolts of which are that: 1). she is in a lousy marriage and it is all my fault; 2) I have no right to have emotional reactions to verbal abuse or other issues such as cyberstalking i.e., secretly tracking and reading my e-mail (both at home and my workplace e-mail).

It hurts to understand that the someone who has been saying how much they love you can "act" so well - i.e., reading all your e-mails and then acting surprised or interested when you relate the details of the day (as develop through professional e-mails) to them. This seems like the worst kind of duplicity.

Another concern is her increasingly frequent habit of telling me of her past sexual exploits in detail at inappropriate places such as when we are out to dinner. I have no idea what this behavior means.

I have begun seeing a therapist and that helps. Just all seems like a big mess.

I would take the lead here, and tell her it is time to get a job, because the marriage is headed for trouble. This is her 4th marriage, and she is doing this only 2 years into it. BIG RED FLAG.

Thanks believer. I have told her over and over again that I expect her to get a job, only to be met with a thousand different excuses, including that "whatever I would be able to bring in would be that much"! She seems more than content to have me work hard, then a). complain that I am not around enough to do things with her; and b). state that I am basically crazy for not searching for a higher paying job. Seems like its all about control and unwillingness to even consider the extra stresses I take on to do consulting work, besides my main job.

I know you already may have gotten your answer JJ, let me relate something in my story to something you had said. You said in your first post



My XW was doing that exact same thing, almost to the letter. It wasn't until I did some of the spying 101 things, I found out why... She was texting her lover, boyfriend, whatever on her cell phone. I learned her password on her online cell account, and checked the text logging, and found out that the whole time she was up, just wasn't tired, she was texting him, and him her for hours.

Another thing, secrets are secrets for a reason. Would she be so honest with you, to tell you after you get home one day about the great bout of sex she had with the neighbor, or pool boy... My XW had secrets, a lot of them. The harder I looked, the more I found. I was just too blind to put all the pieces together until it was too late.

For what it's worth, I divorced her, it was final on Monday, and my life has gotten a lot better because of it. There are a lot of people here, who can help you either work on your M, or give you enough clarity to do what you feel you must. I would tell you that after learning my XW couldn't keep her clothes on around other man, I no longer had a wife, or a marriage, just an illusion that everyone in our lives knew about her escapades seen through, except me. Good luck.

Thanks Kuky. It makes perfect sense. She has set up this elaborate system of credit card checking, e-mail snooping almost as a early-warning system to clue her in on anything I might do that remotely might influence her and her life style - maybe to preempt detection of an A by her? God only knows.

"whatever I would be able to bring in would be that much"!

Tell her that you are no longer going to be her sugar daddy, and if she doesn't bring in that much, she won't have that much to be living on.

Your marriage has gotten off on a bad start. It might be saveable, but she needs a wake up call right now.

If it was a long term marriage, I would give different advice, or if it was her first marriage. But number 4? No way.

That makes perfect sense, is totally rational and straightforward thinking.

Therefore, any conversation I try to have on this will be doomed; she will either rewrite history to say that she shouldn't work (i.e., specifically and only when she was pregnant and having symptoms of threatened miscarriage), that I should give up my current employment and seek a better compensating one (even if I am not happy in it), or other things, while she continues to purchase unnecessary clothing items for herself.

The overall issue is a profound disresepct of me - and if I but look at all the small things I see it for what it is: such as gaslighting me on a daily basis, insisting that what I said was NOT what I said, or that she did not remember conversations from the evening before, or that she take care of the finances because of the implicit and explicit statements that she can do it "better" (despite the fact that she was markedly in credit card debt when I met her and that I successfully manage and grow a small company). The disrespect when simple requests for clarification are met with "Do you think I'm stupid", or when I say I'm too tired from literally a 15 hour workday to be countered with "So you're saying I don'y do anything around here". It's like the person is either trying to find reasons to argue, or deal with her own guilt.

Can't you cancel the card?

Do you have children or are only trying? I would totally STOP trying to have kids. CONDOM for you definately. Do not depend on her BC.

We don't have our own children and definitely aren't trying now. She already manipulated me extensively before we were married by becoming pregnant, not using contraception when I expect her too, and then trying to blame it on a failure of contraception. I actually think she starts believing her own statements even though they NEVER ADD UP when you sit back and try to logically pull the pieces together...

An example, when we were dating before being married she claimed that she was being stalked at her house, that she was scared and it was necessary for her to stay somewhere else - I of course invited her to stay with me, except on the nights when my son was visiting with us. She told me on those nights she stayed with a male "friend" at his apartment, that he was gay, that she slept in another room, etc. etc. Always vague details, never indicating exactly where his place was....when I brought this issue up recently, she said she stayed at his "house" (i.e., not apartment), and questioned why I was "making such a big deal of it", that "probably you were seeing other women", etc. Then she writes me a big e-mail stating that she never even kissed anyone else since meeting me, etc. The details simply do not add up, are so unlikely and conflicting. Overall the effect is to make me question nearly everything I get told, because it will get revised subsequently...

OMG

No children, right?

Why do you want to stay in a relationship with that woman? Think what lies ahead for you. It sounds like you don't trust her at all and she has no intention of earning it. An M without trust is doomed to fail.

JJ,

As to your original question, I don't know if she is cheating or not.....but I THINK SHE IS A WHACK JOB!!!

""she will come in and manage to start an argument, the nuts and bolts of which are that: 1). she is in a lousy marriage and it is all my fault; ""

It's like she is taking sadistic pleasure in mentally abusing you. She is forcing you to Divorce her and then she gets..what..50%????

Could she be that cold and calculating??? Even starting from the aledged pregnancy?

There is a reason she has been married 4 times, I think.

It would be interestig to compare notes with the other poor chaps.

IMHO

Thanks for the comments. Today I stopped by unexpectedly at the house because I accidentally left my cell phone there in the AM. She was NOT happy to see me, then started questioning me after she overdrew our joint checking account. I calmly told her that I had written no checks, etc., whereup I was accused in rising vocal tones of "yelling" at her.

I was happy to leave to go back to work, but during the drive back she called me twice and paged me twice (I had left the pager and cell phone in my carrybag in the trunk). I called her as soon as I got to work, only to be sternly lectured about how she could not reach me, etc. having a major budget meeting in 15 minutes and trying to recover my cool, she called my office 2 more times insisting on speaking with me and paged me 2 more times, all to let me know how I was not reliable in calling her back and that she "had no idea" why. I found 1 more message on my cell phone in an angry tone about how she had to fix the bank problem (that she created).

Sounds to me like she might have a mental illness? How was her childhood?

I think it is borderline personality disorder. Her childhood appears to have been abusive, emotionally, physically, and sexually.

Oh, could be. That is a hard one to deal with. I'm no expert, but from the things I've read, it is a hard one.

Are you feeling like trying to save the marriage?

I swing widely between wanting to get out of there and the abuse to stop, vs. hoping that it will get better. But I'm pessimistic because I'm disrespected and its taking a big toll on me. I guess she would claim that all problems are my fault, and if only I would earn more $$ everything would be OK.

Whenever a partner says "if only" ie: you got out of the military, we buy a new home, we have a baby, we move, blah, blah, blah, it is a warning sign to me. Because a partner needs to love and respect you as things are in the present. I've seen lots of people make changes, and the marriage still didn't work out.

If she is not satisfied with what you earn, SHE needs to get a job. It is somewhat unusual in our society for a woman to stay at home if there are no children.

If only... you know, after you have kids, imagine the problems you have now, they will get much worse after you do have kids.

Something to think about. You may be better off cutting and running. No kids really would be easier than waiting a few years, and having to tell a 5 year old why mommy and daddy aren't going to live together anymore.

My 2 cents worth.

No, we are not going to have children, at all. We both now feel that we are a bit old and that her grown children and mine are enough.