Many people recover their marriages and have the FWS run back into the FBS's arms begging forgiveness and expressing eternal love. A small but significant percentage (okay - maybe only me but I am significant) have a FBS who never expresses regret. Initially we blame this on fog / withdrawal. But what happens when the fog lifts and the withdrawal is long past?

I, as a BS, always wanted remorse from my WW and believed (with the help of many MB posters) that some day I would get it. I did not want remorse simply to feel "holier than thou". Remorse is part and parcel to acknowledging a wrong behavior, validating the pain and suffering of the BS and an indication that there will be a behavior modification (i.e. avoid another affair). I have documented well my reasoning on this subject in the TKO thread.

What happens when WS gives up the A, stays in the M and the relationship improves but WS never shows remorse? In my case, it makes me angry because it hurts my self-esteem. I now realize that I can't expect her to show remorse because if I do (and she doesn't), our M will end before long.

The A made me feel less than nothing. It totally destroyed my self-esteem. Now I have that back. Since WW refuses to have any remorse, it chips away at that self-esteem. It is like she still feels entitled to have complete disregard and disdain for my feelings. She is "above" me. I am insignificant in comparison to her. I don't mean to make her sound evil. She is not. That is just how she makes me feel at times.

I am interested to get POV's from others who have gotten back with their spouse after the A, after time enough to eliminate withdrawal from the equation, where the WS showed no visible signs of remorse. I would like to know how other BS's cope with this and also find out whether remorse is important to them or not for their personal healing and marital recovery. Or if you happen to be a FWS who is in the M but showed no remorse even after withdrawal, I would like to know why you feel you should not be remorseful toward your FBS for the A.

I do have a reason for asking BTW. I recognize that some FWS may BE remorseful but not want to SHOW it. I would like to know why and also how you felt that this helped your recovery.

I can't imagine how I would have coped without heartfelt remorse and regret.

well....er....yes.

That is sort of the point. I am curious how others have coped / are coping or, if they couldn't cope, was this the deal-breaker that led to divorce?

I think to successfully recover the M (I say think because I am in no position to know for sure), the BS must heal. I believe remorse is an acknowledgment of the BS's feelings and show that the WS will work to protect those feelings in the future. It is hard for me to reconnect when I feel like my WS would take on another affair without giving me a second thought. I'm not saying she is going to or even likely to. I am just saying I don't feel that my WS is making me feel particularly safe.

I have told you before Pio that chick Sue in SAA never apologised.

Harley's advice if I recall correctly was to refocus on meeting needs and avoiding love-busters.

My wife has expressed on a number of occasions she is so greatful I fought for her and our marriage.

It is a process and it didn't happen overnight. Takes time Pio - and we were in real recovery before it happened.

Yes you did mention that. To paraphrase, Harley's advise is to swallow your pride. It is never easy to heal yourself and especially when it is a knife wound in the back.

There is a problem with respect. If you do "refocus", you lose a little bit of respect in yourself. You also lose a lot of respect for the FWS. I think that makes it harder to reestablish love (although not impossible).

Am I the only one who thinks this way? Can Greg post?

My experience is fairly limited, but after my WS supposedly ended the A with OP, she didn't show remorse as well, like what I was expecting her to. Found out later than NC was never established and she was still seeing the OP and the A was still ongoing.

My WW was in the bathroom last night with the water running. Cheaters happened to be on Reality TV. Since WW couldn't hear it, I left it on. The WW was about to jump off a roof. Tommy talked her down. BH comes up to the roof and Dday + 20 minutes and WW is begging his forgiveness.

BTW, don't ever watch Cheaters.

Pio - that is fiction. I am sure some WW's are like that but not many I know of.

Why would I have any desire to remain married to an unremorsefull adulterer?

What possible benefit is there to me in doing that?

Maybe you have not received remorse because you have not required it?

I ask sincerely...who would volunteer to look at their face in the mirror when the reflection is reeeeeally unattractive? Better to stay entitled if you can don't you think?

Pio,

My WH didn't show any remorse after his first affair. I thought we were in recovery, I guess I was wrong... remorse was something I also needed for me to heal completely.

FF to now he is hot and heavy in his second affair and we are divorcing. I did intiate the divorce and he counterfiled. I now would like to stop the divorce..he doesn't. He also is not showing any remorse now for what he is doing to his family.

Are you and your W in MC?

Still

Pio,

Some people are too proud to admit remorse. It is a character flaw. I'm sure she does feel remorse, but is unable/unwilling to express it. If it is something you need, maybe you should go to MC or get IC. My WW has never really had a heartfelt apology with true contrition, but when I did bring it up she said, "I said I'm sorry, can we just forget about it." Some people deal with their guilt by trying to forget about their actions instead of confession and reconciliation.

I would advise sharing your feelings with your FWW (radical honesty) in a calm, non-confrontational way to talk about the subject. Make it about you, not her.

Pio,

I'm sorry, I can't remember what your beliefs are. I do know that my WH (previous, and occasional) lack of remorse and subsequent treatment of me, led me to a very deep faith. I watched "The Passion" last year during Lent. Many seeds were planted, but the main one is this. The pain we experience during our mortal lives is inconsequential; it's how we handle that pain that matters most. If you're a believer, it will make a huge difference into eternity. If you're not, it will make a huge difference in how you view yourself (and others).

Though, the Christ was tortured, murdered, and literally went through ****** for you (and me), he still loved us. He is always there to hold you, will never betray, and has proven that. He is the ultimate Soulmate. Your wife may not be capable of remorse at this point, have faith, someday she'll wake up. She may not be strong enough to face herself yet...be tender with her.

I apologize if this sounds preachy, I'm not very good at this, but it is how I cope and move beyond reactive thinking.

Ps
Thanks for all your help and encouragement through the past year.

That is exactly the point. When this all begins, there is no remorse because WW is in fog or withdrawal. We believe remorse will come when the WW comes to her senses. All sounds good until it doesn't happen.

But now I'm in a marriage that is reasonable. WW is almost transparent. I don't believe she is still in the A. But she is apparently unrepentant. That is why I believe I am on the brink of divorce. Unfortunately I'm now not in as nearly a good a position as I was right after Dday. 20-20 hindsight, I wish I had simply divorced.

I do not want to remain married to someone who could do what she did and not feel the slightest bit sorry about it. I don't even like people like that. So what to do?

People like BigK say it will come. Someday.

OTOH maybe WW is repentant but doesn't want me to see her that way. Maybe shame wants to make her hide those feelings from me. We might be like the blind men trying to identify the elephant.

I simply don't know. I do know that lack of remorse engenders resentment. I wonder how Greg dealt with that.

Yes I have required remorse. I have told WW on many occasions that it bothers me she is not sorry. She says she has tried to say she is sorry inthe past but I said I didn't believe her. It's true. She did say it. It's true. I didn't believe her. Of course this is back when I was finding hidden cellphones and love scrapbooks. So sue me.

No we are not currently in MC. WW told me to go to IC so I could get help with my problem. She views it as all my problem. She believes she has done her part.

I think I am cross posting. jmw. I think maybe I answered your question. I do agree. Maybe it is a personal issue with WW. I don't know. I have tried to discuss it in terms of my feelings. WW's response was to get angry. She LBed me.

BIO,

I don't disagree with what you say. I do believe that whether someone is a believer or not is not entirely germane. I believe that remorse for wrongdoing is in our human nature for whatever reason. I believe that NOT being remorseful wrongdoing is a learned or adapted behavior.

I don't want this issue to be about religion and I am trying to avoid that facet. I did say that I don't expect life to be fair which is generally derived from the points you have mentioned. That's as far into religion as I will go on this thread.

So what was it that stopped you from divorcing then?

Pio,

Your post is incredibly timely for me. Lack of real remorse keeps me here, lurking, stuck in affair land, even though the EA has long been over. I ask myself, WHY don't I "just get over it?" like he requests. Like you, I needed to see contrition, humbleness and an absolute horror over what he did. I have asked myself A LOT, is there something wrong with me that I just don't "get over it".

I know, absolutely that the affair is over. I have no worries there, but I do keep my spy gear in place, just for reassurance. Nothing. No contact, no reason to doubt.

I just wanted and needed him to BE SORRY. To acknowledge the pain of what he did, HIS actions brought me to my knees. That I too felt the knife in my back. Destroyed. I want him to KNOW what he did. He just wants to "move on", "get over it" and is extremely annoyed that I "choose to live in the past".

I have not mentioned it in at least 6 months until this past weekend. Again, I get the rolling eyes, "Oh, God, here you go again" from him. I do know that he is sorry but I think he is more embarassed that he got caught due to my exposure.

I also continue to contemplate divorce, at a very serious level. I do not respect him. And it is not so much about the affair itself, it is about how he continues to ignore my pain. It is about character.

heh...

You could shoot him in the back and ask him haughtily and with much derision how long 'till he stops living in the past and get's over it.

Be sure to remind him how unattractive whining and crying is also.

In what time context do you ask the question? I didn't divorce her because I loved her with my life. I don't divorce her because we have two daughters who would be devastated. I do still love her but I'm not in love with her. I don't respect her. It is hard to want to fall in love with her because she isn't "safe". What are my motivations? I don't know. I will try to go for IC.

To an extent, my WW is right - this is my problem. What I am questioning at the moment is whether or not it is justified. I may also be asking the wrong crowd (no offense intended) because all of us BS's believe we have rights that we share in common. I'm not certain I believe that premise any longer. Maybe it just is what it is. Don't know.

Clearly this remose or lack thereof is the most pervasive thought in my mind these last few months. Maybe I do simply have to get over it.

Maybe we BS's who get no remorse derive respect from the fact that we are willing to suffer it. That is not my general nature so it is not a big motivator for me.

Pio,

I understand exactly what you are going through.

How does someone do something so obviously wrong and yet find him/herself unable or unwilling to apologize?

First, I think there is an issue of taking responsibility for one's actions; something of a major problem in our society today. Instead, a WS will concoct justifications for what occurred. They may go something like this:

"I would never have done this if only you had ____________."

Fill in the blank with "given me the attention I needed," or any of the dozens of rationalizations which, on the face of it, may seem reasonable. They aren't, of course, since there are many other ways to cope with marital problems, real or imagined, without cheating on your spouse.

What makes these rationalizations/excuses so powerful is that they alleviate guilt, transferring it at least partially to the betrayed spouse.

Showing remorse and seeking forgiveness is tantamount to admitting guilt; some people just can't do it. It's a lot tougher than merely blaming the betrayed spouse or the marriage for their infidelity. And the prevailing myths in our society about infidelity are no help -- didn't most of us once believe that the only reason people cheat on the spouses is because they have a bad marriage? Don't we all know differently now that we've experienced it ourselves?

I think you've realized, at least internally, that these things were never anyone else's responsibility.

The BS heals because they must, not 2 control an outcome. (the result may indeed be a recovered marriage with a remorseful FWS, but it might not).

Remorse would be cool. Looking back, there probably have been more times when my W expressed remorse for what she'd done than I was capable of giving her credit for at the time. But then, like most others asking these questions, further contact was discovered by one means or another, thereby cheapening any prior remorse that may have been expressed.

As far as the possibility that the FWS would take up another affair? Hard 2 know how likely that is in a particular si2ation (unless there's an obvious reason for believing so), particularly in subtle si2ations where:

*the BS struggles with whether it seems likely because they still feel the hurt from the last time and aren't "satisfied" with the level of remorse expressed by the WS, or
*the BS has detached in a healthy way (healed) and is able 2 objectively determine that the WS would indeed have another A if given half a chance.

So, my question (because I deal with this nowadays myself):

Do you feel safe? Never mind your W's responsibility (assuming she has any) 2 act in ways 2 make you feel safe. Do you feel secure enough as an individual that you can be safe regardless of what your W even2ally decides 2 do or not do?

-ol' 2long

I think there is also a character issue. It is a perfectly legitimate question to ask yourself if you should remain married to a wayward spouse who refuses to admit guilt or express remorse for their infidelity.

You don't ~really~ need IC, yanno !

You do need MC.

THAT is where I would place my boundary if I were you.

MC
MC
MC
MC

any questions?

the answer is

MC
MC
MC
MC

and

you do not go to MC to fix HER

you go to MC to mutually learn marriage skills

NOT to get her to feel/express/confess/redress remorse

she prolly needs marriage skills first

Agree Hiker. I for one would not stay married to a WW that was uncapable of 1. taking full responsibility for the devestation they wrought 2. Apologizing to everyone they hurt 3. Being remorseful to the point of sack cloth and ashes remorseful 4. Understanding in no uncertain terms that future contact or inappropriate behavior of any kind with opposite sex would send her packing to the curb 5. Be willing to take on the majority of the recovery responsibilities at some point shortly after no contact established and withdrawal. 6. Utlimately see the OM for the [censored], POS he really was not the knight in shining armor she's conjured him up to be and communicate that to me and friends. 7. Tell the truth to people she's lied to about the state of our marriage and my abilities as a husband and last 8. Go in front of our church congregation with me, make a public confession and ask for prayers and assistance for our family to recover from this tragic event.

Pio -

Like many here, I feel that a FWS should feel and express genuine remorse and regret for their actions. I would (and to some degree currently do) feel "unsafe" with my wife since I have seen very little remorse (it was 16 months after D-Day before I got an apology and admission from my wife that she had been selfish).

It could be part of your wife's character. I know that my wife does not like to apologize. I do not know if I will ever see the level of remorse from her that I would like, that would make me feel safe. I look at her actions a lot more closely, as I know that's how she demonstrates to remorse or apology (i.e., MP places more value on action than words).

It's a really crappy spot to be in. I do agree with Pep - MC, if you have access to it, would be very helpful. Your wife may feel that this is your problem, but it is not. It is your marriage's problem, and if you both want your marriage to succeed, you both need to address it.

Sorry I don't have any profound words of wisdom or advice for you. I'm all out of profoundity, I guess. But I understand your feelings and frustration.

Pep -


That is awesome! Wonderfully succinct description of what MC is about.

You should add that to your notable posts thread. Spot on, as the folks across the pond like to say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Most days I do. 2day I do. I do believe it is when I focus on this issue of remorse that I backslide. It draws me back 2 a place where I feel my feelings are unimportant. Face it. We all know that the A is not the BS's fault. We all know that we still, in some dark recess of our minds, feel guilty. WS isn't sorry - maybe they were right and we were wrong? Is it insecurity? Maybe. I know that lack of remorse is an obstacle 2 my healing. My response has been 2 detach emotionally from my M. Maybe that is self-protection or maybe it is difficulty in loving someone who is apparently (meaning by outward appearance) so selfish.

I was driving to soccer last night and had this thought. It is about the situation where the BS never sees remorse and decides to take the "high" road anyway. Whether for religious reasons or not, the BS tells himself/herself that he/she will stay with the WS and suffer the attitude of the WS. This, in some cases, might be very unhealthy for the M. Let me try to explain. A good M (I think) is based on equality. Both spouses are equal partners in each other's eyes. The A happens. Fog lifts. Withdrawal is gone. Now a WS remains married but they don't feel the BS needs an apology. From my BS point of view, my WW is telling me that she believes she is now superior to me in the relationship. I matter much less than her. Now I as a BS, for whatever motivation, decide to remain with the marriage 2 and "sacrifice" my right to an apology. I can take the view that I am the better person. I never had an A and I am tolerating the one who did. So I might view myself as the "superior" one in the relationship. So, in my hypothetical case, both BS and WS view themselves as superior to the other. That isn't healthy.

I mention this not because of how I feel. I would say in our case it has actually been the opposite. Based on scattered comments, WW and I may actually feel inferior to each other. I'm not sure it makes much difference. Whether inferior or superior, neither case permits equality.

BTW, did Pepperband say something? I was distracted and missed the Burma Shave signs. I really need to slow down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I recommended MC. WW countered with IC. I said I would get IC if she would agree to MC.

By not demonstrating remorse or seeking forgiveness, it is implicit that there is no admission of guilt. It seems to me the only way a reasonable person (who knows right from wrong) could adopt this attitude is by convincing themselves that the affair was a direct or indirect result of some problem with the marriage or their relationship with their spouse. That doesn't mean their beliefs are justified, but it does provide them with an opportunity to place some blame elsewhere and avoid full responsibility for the affair.

I think it's conceivable that a WS might assume an air of superiority under these conditions, but unless they are mentally ill I would bet this "air of superiority" is a facade; deep down they are feeling bad about themselves.

On the other hand, no matter how much a betrayed spouse can tell himself that he has the moral high ground and should feel superior to his wayward spouse, he won't actually feel that way deep inside. And that is because of what you have already pointed out: insecurity. The damage to one's ego from the betrayal is pervasive and longlasting on many levels.

In my opinion, that is why the failure to show remorse or seek forgiveness is an impediment to reconciliation. That doesn't mean I think it's impossible to recover without it, but I believe recovery is much more difficult without that important step.

Hi Piajitos,

I think part of it is how someone is raised. Some are taught to say they're sorry when they've done something wrong and others aren't told to do that, or their parents were very forgiving and never expected it. My W is one of them that I've almost never heard an "I'm sorry", so I wasn't surprized when she didn't show any remorse when the A was first found out. All I got afterwards was lying mixed with truth. At that time I was still unsure what to do to deal with it all, then found the Harley's site and started reading up on ENs and how to deal with the WS. Over time, I worked hard on ENs, dropped the anger and demands, and replaced them with telling her how much it hurt from what she'd done. This is not wimpy behavior, it's being honest with the WS so she can know what she can do to help repair what she did. What amazed me is that whereas before she never apologized, she has since said at about three different times that she's sorry, or wished it had never happened, even once getting angry that I wasn't paying enough attention to her when the OM was.

I'm not out of the woods yet, none of us are. Remorse is just one peice of the puzzle. There is also the WS turning back into the W, behaving like the W and losing the WS attitudes and actions. I think that happens when they begin to feel love, feel safe, and feel they can trust that you'll be there for them regardless of what they've done.

God bless,
CS

CS,

I don't know your story. No offense but when was your Dday?

I would like to ask about another (related) issue that has been nagging at me for months.

Let me set the stage first by saying that:

1) I love me WW but definitely am not "in love" with her. I blame the A for me not loving her and the lack of remorse as my Everest assent to marital recovery.

2) I was still in love with my WW for a very long time after Dday but loving someone who I knew did not love me took its toll. I progressively fell out of love. So I can say it is difficult to want to love someone who doesn't love you.

3) I'm doing my best to meet all of WW's EN's that I know about. I am doing my best to be loving and attentive.

So my question is this: how long would I reasonably expect WW to remain in this situation before getting frustrated and give up? Doesn't WW really want to be with someone who loves her? (Isn't that what OM's are supposedly all about?)

If you are a BS or WS and had gotten all the way through withdrawal and found yourself in this situation, did you set a time limit for yourself? Was this ever a concern to you? How long can one person continue to be with another person who isn't in love with them? Or am I way off base? Is this really even a concern at all? One fear I have is that if I cannot fall in love with WW again, she might use this as entitlement for another A.

It was not ever a consideration for me.
I think it is a valid concern
I think you are meeting her EN's and she probably considers herself in love with you.
Does she know what needs of yours she needs to meet?
If you don't have a loving marriage, I have no doubt one of you may have an affair some time in the future.

I gave her a copy of HNHN and told her that was one of my requirements for her staying (that she read it). She keeps meaning to but just has been so busy lately. I don't think she knows what an EN is. We need a common basis of understanding before we can discuss what they might be.



Which is exactly why I avoid the saleswomen at Home Depot when I'm on repat.



I struggle with that grammatically. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I read your last couple of posts and wonder>:

1. What type of closure do you both have or had vs need to have?

2. In your eyes, is she still a WW?

3. What was or should be your recovery plan?

L.

hmmm....

I have no idea what kind of closure WW has had or needs to have. What I believe I need is remorse or some other acknowledgement that the A was wrong. What I would REALLY like is for WW to understand her true motivation for the A. That, however, is a pipedream. It isn't really a question of forgiveness. It is a question of safety for me.

I still view WW as a WW. I have no reason to believe that she is really committed to the M. My belief is that she is trying to do her best because that is what she believes is her obligation. I also think the prospect of losing the girls scares her.

My recovery plan has been to use POJA in all decisions and try to get WW involved in everything including finances. So far she has successfully avoided the latter. I have 100% transparency and she has 100% translucency. She hides the things from me she thinks I might take the wrong way. That is a unilateral decision with no POJA. I have been doing my best to spend 15.5 hours a week with her. I usually succeed except when she scraps. I Plan B the scrapbooking and it is a dark one.

Basically I have been trying to do all that SAA recommends while awaiting WW to become a FWW. I swallow my anger and internalize it all. I lift a LOT of weights. That helps.

I paint a lot of walls... ...and other things.

I'm going 2 sound fatalistically pessimistic now: Most of what you describe in this thread is like what I'm feeling/experiencing. It's been 5 and a half years since d-day, and if I say ANYTHING marriage-building, it goes completely ignored. I still do get her tirades about how she doesn't believe in "conventional marriage."

But I digress. I don't think anything we try 2 do matters if the WS is still Wayward, even if it's not actively. All it takes is some high-pressure si2ation 2 make this clear. We had one of those yes2rday. All I want right now is out. It was that bad.

-ol' 2long

You tell her.

"I am lonely married to you."

"I do not feel that you love me."

"I am losing my love for you."

"I am frustrated that we are not both equally invested in each other's happiness."

"Time for change is now."

"This marriage can be restored, but only with time and effort from both of us."

"Are you happily married?"

"What are you willing to do to fix this?"

Burma Shave

3 months. The A seemed to pick up whenever there were anger or demands. I learned quickly that love busters are bad.

What do you think would be the reason that your WS hasn't shown remorse of some kind? Does she know that it hurts you? Does your WS think A's are common and don't need remorse? Sometimes people hide things they feel because they don't want to appear weak. Would she feel like she'd lose stature in saying it? Have you ever told her you'd never tell someone you're sorry? Do you think a MC would be able to find out what the reason is? Could she still be having the A and doesn't feel any remorse yet because it's not over yet?

If she's religious, repentence is something she needs to think about.

God bless,
CS

Pepperband,

I don't tell her those things. I no longer tell her anything. What am I going to do? Nothing. Should I do a search and count the number of times you have posted that you cannot change another person? It might takes days. What I am going to do is try to find a way to look at it that allows me to tolerate it.

CS,

When was your Dday? 3-4 months ago? I ask this because I used to talk like you about a year ago. Sorry but have you heard of the BS fog?

Pepperband,

I might have missed what you are saying. Are you saying that is what I am currently doing or what I should be doing? I read it the first way.

Hi Piojitos,

Yes. Yes, heard about the BS fog, it's denial of the A going on or the extent of it. I know the A went on and could still go on, or could happen with anyone else. That's up to the WS. My job at this point is to putting across my best efforts to avoid anger and making demands, show love and affection, help her recover her feelings towards the marriage and when possible trust her, but not too much. I've told her how much it hurt and to please not hurt me again. I tell her each time the A discussion comes up. I try to keep that discussion to a minimum. She knows I love her and care about her and she's shown remorse over what happened.

She's been very jealous in the past with regards to me, and I've pointed out that if it happens any more, I might fall out of love with her and "who knows what would happen then?". More than likely nothing would happen right away because I'm not interested in that happening, but it's playing with fire and she knows it. Recently she's become concerned about 3 different women and won't stop asking about them. I've told her there's nothing to be concerned about, but she's now concerned. Does that mean the A is over? Does remorse mean the A is over? Does her saying the A is over and done with and has been for several weeks? There's no way to know, only she knows. If she wants to be my W, I'm here for her. If not, I'm sure I can find someone else, it's not all that difficult. But I'd rather have my W and she knows that. It's really up to her how it will go. I try to be frank and honest about all of this with her, I feel that's the best way to deal with my W, or my WS. She needs to see honest discussion has value and dishonesty won't get her anywhere in the M, so she can feel safe to do the same.

People show remorse for three reasons: 1. they think they've hurt you and don't want you hurting anymore because they love you, or 2. they think you can hurt them, and they don't want you hurting them, or 3. they know what they did was morally wrong and repent to God. In my case, I've made it clear that she's hurt me in what she did and to please not hurt me any further, it's very painful to me. I've also made it known that if my love for her runs out, I could end up doing the same thing, and she's very jealous, so I don't expect she wants to go down that path any time soon. You never know, until the WS goes down that path.

Mistakes happen, fog happens, I'm willing to forgive. She's said she's sorry about 3 times now after she said the A was over. Until then, she showed no remorse at all. I believe she is sorry and regrets it. I don't believe that she can guarantee not having an A in the future, no one can. If the A continues or another shows up, it will be painful, and I'll either move to plan B, or plan D depending on how I feel about it at the time.

God bless,
CS

No BS is not denail about the A. BS fog is where you tend to view WS as being right. You blame yourself for the A. You think WS had motivation for the A. You perceive OM as infinitely better than you. The BS fog is what happens to you somewhere around the second stage of grief.

Yes you do need to be in Plan A. I hear a lot of fog talk in your posts (BS fog). But you and I are not in the same position.

Jealousy? I have heard that some waywards do fear that the BS will have an A and it can become a paranoid mania. I wouldn't say that means anything in particular with regard to the state of your WW's A. I think she is just being herself.

You are fairly fresh into this. Wait a year or two with no significant progress toward recovery. Wait until the A is ancient history in WW's mind and in yours. Then you will begin to understand where I am at.

The point is that not everyone falls in line with the MB plan. It is still a great plan but it can never guarantee success. When you get to the point where I am at (and I suspect Tatertot as well), you begin to kick yourself for not having gotten a divorce when the time was ripe (i.e. Dday). Your love bank is completely drained and WW isn't interested in making deposits.

Different subject and unrelated to your post but back to the point of the thread.

I was thinking last night after watching Dr. Phil's House. The WW said what, for her, were some very profound things for being 10 minutes after her confession. They showed a complete understanding of the plight of the BS. I therefore got the impression she had been coached by Dr. Phil to say what she said.

The A destroys the self-esteem of the BS. Having the one you love and trust the most choose someone else over you is devastating. The BS himself views the OP with almost god-like qualities. The OP is larger than life to both the WS and the BS. I was finally able to slay that dragon (as posted on my thread). Unfortunately when I saw OM for what he really was, I lost all respect for my WW. You see, while I still viewed OM as better than me, I respected my WW's decision to choose him over me. Now I see how stupid and immature she was. Even so, the pain remains.

What I would really hope that a FWW would do is to reassure the BH that she recognizes that, for whatver reason, she made a mistake and that OM is nothing compared to the BH. FWW is thankful BH stood beside her and supported her and that he is the love of her life. That would go a long way toward healing the BH. That is my ideal case.

Now for FWW to do that, she has to swallow all her pride, take a huge hit on her own self-esteem and admit a huge mistake. What is more important to her? Her marriage or her ego?

Some people simply can't ever admit they were wrong. That is a big obstacle.

I no longer expect my WW to say anything. I look at Pepperband's suggestions and I lose count of the LB's. I won't do that because I am now in an extremely dark Plan A.

I saw this last night. All I can say is that I have had a couple (maybe four) of experiences in the last three months that have gotten me demanding a divorce. One was over a teddy bear. We went to Bahrain for the weekend to get away from here and have some beer. WW also had her hair done. That takes about three hours and is a significant loss of "together" time but I stayed with the DDs at the pool at the hotel while she went to another hotel to get her hair done. When it was time to leave, I had to pack everything and we went to pick up WW at the other hotel. I put DD2's little teddy bear (yellow rat with no more whiskers) in the ice chest so it would be well protected. DD2 asked where it was. I told her it was in my backpack so she wouldn't go looking for it (she gets it out - she'll lose it). So all is well and we get home. That night DD2 is going to bed nad has no rat-bear. WW asks if I packed it. I said absolutely. I tell her it was in the ice chest. WW says DD2 told her it was in my backpack. I explain why I said that. I go look for the ice chest because we had not bothered to unpack when we got home. Ice chest was empty. Turns out Amazon woman had unpacked it without being asked. Unfortunately Amazon woman applies no logic when putting things up. Amazon woman also just happens to have gone out with her friends. WW is frantic. In her panic she is accusing me of having left rat-bear in Bahrain. How could I be so stupid, etc? I came unglued.

I had done the entire weekend just so WW could get her hair done. WW abandoned DDs and I to get her hair done. I was left having to do everything to take care of the kids, get us packed, etc. so we could go home. I took very special care of that bear. I knew all these things. WW never even gave me the benefit of the doubt. After about 30 minutes she found the rat-bear. AW hadput it in the laundry over the dryer.

It never occurred to WW that she might owe me an apology. What I saw was a crystal clear view of a woman who has zero respect for me, will always blame me for anything without giving it a second thought and never give me the benefit of the doubt. Next day I demanded a divorce - not for the argument but for my WW's attitude. A nearly identical incident happened a week later when she could not find a present we had bought in Bahrain for a friend of DD1's birthday. Again I got pretty angry. Again I found the present. Again AW had put it in some place it should never have been. Again I wanted a divorce.

It isn't the fight that triggers the desire for divorce - it is the attitude that WW usually hides but cannot conceal in a time of crisis.

Last week a got a call from DD1 at 6:45AM. She was in tears. WW had gone out running and had not come back. DD1 didn't know what to wear for school. Didn't know what to take for snack. Didn't have anyone to fix her hair and was worried about mommy. I didn't know WW was going our running in the mornings. She hasn't told me that. When she does run, she runs the jebels which take just under 30 minutes. She had been gone for an hour. later WW explains that she had run 7 miles instead of 3. She says she did this because I had advised her that only doing 20 minutes of aerobic exercise was not that efficient at burning fat. So somehow it all became my fault again. Anyway, we had a huge fight.

Then I posted to tatertot's thread and things have calmed down. It has been during these critical times that I have seen glimpses of who WW really is at the moment. She is not the nice person she wants to appear to be. She is very quick to blame me for anything and everything. She still feels entitled. If it weren't for the DDs, I'd divorce her in a heartbeat and I still love her. Doesn't matter - I'd still feel happier without her.

Hi Piajitos,

You might be reading too much into what I've said. If BS fog covers all those, then no, I don't have BS fog. For example, one by one:

I don't view the WS as being right in having the A.

I do not blame myself for the A, though I do admit prior to the A, due to work, I was neglecting her some when the OM was paying attention to her. But she chose the A and the A is no solution to anything. She accepts blame for what she chose, I was not involved in that decision she made with the OM.

As far as neglect and ENs, neglect is a big EN issue. At the time my priorities should have been more towards her than work, Dr. Harley points this out, so yes, the WS did have some motivation to do what she did, even though the A was wrong and wasn't a good solution to anything.

I do not perceive the OM as infinitely better than me, in fact I view him as a jerk. So this one doesn't match me either.

So no, I do not agree that I'm writing in a BS fog manner.

I am wondering why you're not hearing remorse from the WS though. I could only think of 3 reasons why someone would have remorse. If there is no remorse, then I wonder why none of those 3 reasons fit. For example:

Does she love you and know you were hurt by the A?

Does she fear you might hurt her through an A of your own?

Has she repented to God over it being morally wrong? If so, does she feel any need to tell you about it?

And a 4th potential reason, does she feel safe enough to discuss remorse with you?

If none of those happen, I don't know how remorse could occur unless it was something taught, like an instant reply about remorse over doing something wrong. Maybe that's a 5th reason for remorse?

I don't know how you saw the OM as having "god like qualities" because in my situation, from what the WS told me, he sounded like a classic jerk. In my view, anyone breaking up a marriage with kids and knowing it at the time, is a jerk of the lowest caliber.

Not sure what you mean by a dark plan A. For me, it's all about loving my W during plan A and doing what's necessary for her to feel safe, loved, forgiven if she ends it, understand what she did and how wrong it was, and what could happen if she continues with it, to help lift the fog so to speak. The latter one, I've found requires showing her daily, why she married me, and even more so, why she should remain married to me and forsake all others. I'll know if I'm successful or not as time progresses.

I do know that if I don't give her love, caring, safety, forgiveness, drop anger and demands, and help her know what she did is wrong that hurts both me and our marriage, then she'll be very likely to go back to having an A and it'll be a waste of time to try to have a marriage.

I do agree with you that you should work on getting remorse going. Have you had some time to talk intimately about it? When both of you are talking in the most loving manner to each other, bring up the topic and tell her how much it means to you and ask her why she won't tell you that. She is your best source for what she feels. If she's feeling resentment, find out what that's about first, it might be what's holding her back?

God bless,
CS

Okay wait a year or two until your love bank is completely drained. Then continue to try to do those things. Then you will understand what this thread is about.

A marriage is a joint agreement between two people that love each other. If you both love each other, then discussing remorse and resolving the remorse issue, should be a possibility.

CS,

Sorry dude but you simply have no clue what I'm talking about.

Pio - Pep was saying that is what you SHOULD be doing and I would agree. I would not dismiss her advice.

Hi Piojitos,

It looked like you were saying you felt drained, that you wanted her to admit remorse, and then you would have love for her again. If that's the case, I'm not there. I do feel drained sometimes, so I do understand. I often wish the nightmare was over and I could wake up and it hadn't happened.

I still love my W, and still feel that I can forgive and try to save the marriage. I did the plan A things, and have seen progress. She said she was sorry about 6 weeks after the A started, I doubt she would have said it if I'd kept making demands and had been angry about it. I found that telling how it hurt helped her to remember that she loves me and she started feeling some guilt over it. Up until the A, she was very loving, I had no doubt that she loved me, and I loved her. The OM ruined that. It took both me and the W being reminded that each other was worth working on the marriage. She could still have an A, and so could I, so could anyone. Remorse won't stop that.

I don't think you'll get remorse from a WS unless she feels love and knows you're still hurting over it and wanting to know she's remorseful over it (or the other 4 reasons for remorse mentioned previously). Which ever it is, talking to her about it seems like a good solution. Being quite about it won't help progress. She's your W, talk to her. You should be able to talk to her about things that are difficult, she's your W, she can handle it, can't she?

God bless,
CS

Well BigK I definitely misread it the first time. That doubt entered my mind after I had signed off.

Pepperband's plan is logical and more or less what I had attempted about a week or so ago. WW's response was to get angry. I based everything on how I feel. I was not accusing her of anything. I acknowledged that her actions were pretty good but I was missing dialogue to accompany that.

WW beat me up pretty badly. It would be helpful to me if she could say a few nice things. I don't even care if they are lies. She lied before - why can't she now? As I have said, WW now believes that any problems I have are my problems. She feels she has done her part and seems unwilling to do any more.

Now I can continue to beat this dead horse or I can opt for #13 in the list of options which is "rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses".

This is your false assumption. If you would pay attention to Tatertot's thread and this thread, you would see that you are wrong. You are way early on in this process. I hope it all works out for you. Not all WS's respond per the MB plan. Mine has not. Some WS's reach a point where they decide that enough is enough. They have done all they are going to do and nothing more. No amount of Plan A or B will fix that.

Are you saying you can't talk to her about remorse? Has she rejected saying "I'm sorry"? Has she said you deserve it?

During the 6 weeks, my WS told me much the same thing, said it was all my fault and that she didn't care. It took talking to her and telling her I love her, telling her it hurt me, and that I wanted her as my W, dropping all the anger, demands and getting her back to where she could see me as her H, not an enemy.

That could take decades, or weeks. It's the same talk she told me, same uncaring, despising, prideful attitude, do whatever I want talking with no remorse. It takes talking to her as someone that loves her, regardless of how she responds to it.

If you've hung on for a year or two, well, you're pretty strong emotionally, but I'd suggest taking chances, being very open about loving her, and very open about the hurt. What have you got to lose?

God bless,
CS

CS,

Which part of the thread can't you read?

Pio - you KNOW that people affair down and that the OM is no match for you - would you really want her to find Mr Perfect in an affair partner? Om ARE scum and ARE less than BH. Obviously. They have little peckers too.


Well that is my idea of the minimum standard for an apology as well. That is pretty much word for word what I got and still get occasionally.

Pio - WHAT is a Dark Plan A???????

Yes I know that now but shortly after Dday, I didn't feel that way at all. I also know that there is no way a BS can compete toe-to-toe with any OM in the mind of a WW. WW is perfect in their eyes. BS is scum. That feeling is transferred somewhat to the BS initially who has just had his world rocked and doesn't know up from down. As I said, I slew that dragon. PB is a nothing.



And I am willing to bet that it has significantly helped your recovery.



Coming soon to an email inbox near you!

Pio - have you actually communicated this to WW in the same way you communicate it here? Chapter and verse.

If you have and she doesn't understand - file for divorce.

If you haven't - stop expecting her to know this stuff if you don't communicate it.

A Dark Plan D might fix this.

Yes. Chapter and verse. I have told her that her attitude shows she has zero respect for me and that it is impossible to love someone you don't respect.

Her response is always "but I thought we were doing better".

Better than what? I've never persued that.

She doesn't want a divorce.

Hi Piojitos,

I went back and re-read all your statements, but I didn't see where you told her you felt hurt by the A. That is a big issue because if she doesn't understand that you're hurting, she won't want to ease your pain. It will be like a rank, one upmanship type stuff. Because if you don't feel pain, but are concerned, then she can negotiate with what you're wanting, and ignore what you're hurting over.

Anyway, I'm sorry, but I have to be honest with my W, even when she's a WS, I have to tell her that I'm hurting over it, that is part of my being "in love". I have to assume that her being my W, that she'll care about what I feel, like I'll care about her, and that she'll want to not have me hurting over something, whatever it is. She's a human being, and so am I, as are we all.

Talk to her Piojitos, talk to her in a loving manner. There have been times when my W has acted the same way, and times when believe it or not, I've acted in an uncaring manner too, we all have. Offer her love, regardless of what she give back. Think of it as a job if you have to, but the payoff is her being your W again. It is worth the effort. And do not be afraid to say you've been hurt by it and want the hurting to stop. You have nothing to lose in saying that, I know, because once my WS knew that, she didn't want to have me hurt much longer and said "I'm sorry".

God bless,
CS

Cliff - what you are not getting is that Pio has been working this for 12 freakin months. TWELVE MONTHS.

That is wearing him down and after 3 months you are a light year away from understanding that.

Recovery would have been impossible without it.

Actually - Pio - It's much longer than 12 months isn't it?

We are at 16 months of NC and counting. Almost 24 since Dday.

Well Pio then you have to decide if you can live like this. She doesn't get to choose - you do.

She must know YOU aren't doing better. So by WE she means SHE.

I think Pep's suggestions have merit. Try parroting them to her every day for 2 weeks. You never know - maybe she will get it.

That is what I thought.

It's a way different dynamic Cliff.

You should have seen Pio when he first came to MB.

2long,

What is an "unconven2onal" marriage? Or is that "nonconven2onal"? Or does she view it in terms of weapons? (where the opposite of "conven2onal" is NBC).

Oddly enough I am planning 2 be in the USA in August. I'm not sure I'll get much further north than 2lsa and I will probably spend a lot of time in Houston.

I am a bit concerned and I may ac2ally spend all my time in federal prison. The IRS has decided that I am ac2ally resident in the USA and now owe them $60,000 in taxes and penalties. I refuse 2 pay. I spent 19 days in the USA in 2004 and 9 days there in 2005. I'm unclear as 2 what the requirement is for non-residency. For their part, they are not being too flexible - at least not since I called the investigating agent a pencil-pushing "bureauprat". 20-20 hindsight. [sigh...]

In a word, polygamy. My W doesn't use that word, but that's what it is. She doesn't use that word (these days), because it's not comfy (it's disgusting). She'd say that, in her view, it's okay 2 have romantic interests outside the M, or that it's okay 2 work with RM, who she had a 12-yr LTA with.


Okay. I get 2 Houston once a year or so, but in March.


Definitely get with a lawyer before you come here. I got audited for something silly about 15 years ago, and it tied us up financially making payments for about 3 years before I could pay it off - we were making so little at the time. I don't take chances with the IRS. This country may be a democracy, but there are dues. ...boy, if my Model A club was as strict as the IRS about getting their dues punc2ally every year, I'd be hosed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Polygamy? She should live over here...no...wait...that's only the men. Not really fair is it?

Oddly enough in a country where polygamy is encouraged, the new generations are opting for monogamy and 2-3 kids max. It has nothing to do with religion. It is purely economic.

The IRS made their decision on no apparent basis. They sent me a letter saying if I did not respond within 30 days that they were right by default. It takes 3-5 weeks for mail to get here from the USA. They said my only recourse then would be to go to federal court.

I responded by saying that the US INS has a complete and concise record of every minute I've spent in the USA for the past 15 years. Why can't they communicate? Deaf ears. Logic should never be attempted to be applied to the government. I fully expect to be remanded into federal custody when I arrive in Houston.

For about $5000 I can buy a passport from an inocuous country, burn my blue one and never pay taxes again. And I haven't done that yet because????

Yes...I'm an idiot.

Pio:

Are your wife's issues based in either her culture or FOO?

If so, is it possible for her to change her sense of entitlement without significant time and effort spent in counseling?

and do I remember correctly that she has sumarily dismissed the idea of counseling?? (or am I confusing her with another WS?)

This is a depressing thread. It’s gone from unremorseful WW to IRS Audit. Don't know which is worse. Must suck to be you.

I can tell you are frustrated, Pio. Duh.

You keep pushing back on good advice. This won’t work because of that. That won’t work because of this.

I could ask you what you want, but I think you don’t really know. I mean, not in the context of where you find yourself. You know what you want in the big picture. But, you can’t have that any more, you know. None of us BH can.

Pio, wanting remorse is a symptom, not the cause, of your frustration.

I tell you with certainty, remorse is highly overrated. FWW in my case did express remorse. Genuine, true, tears running down her face, on her knees remorse. After each and every D-Day of the 10 year VLTA!

Made a lot of difference, huh.

2long mentioned loving detachment, almost in passing. If you are settling for item 13 (was it 13?) in your list of options then you need loving detachment. You need to concentrate on yourself.

And BTW, OM in my case was measurably better than me. In bed, in career, in bank account, in looks, in toys. You name it, he was better than me in the eye of FWW. FWW was not affairing down. Well, except in morals and ethics - they were a matched set. But that was then. This is now.

Now I like me just fine. As you posted earlier, you like yourself. That’s a very good place to start.

I assure you, I felt just as you. Even at 3.5 years since most recent D-Day of the VLTA I sometimes still do. I stayed because of DS. But I also built a new a life. The life I sacrificed when I M’d FWW. And a funny thing happened. FWW respects me more now than she has since I can remember.

ILFFWBINILWH too. But love is verb and a rather active verb too. Try to stop dwelling, obsessing even, on the remorse red herring and make the life you want for you and your family. It will make the necessary difference in time. A difference in your outlook.

This is an emotional phase you are going through. It’s cloaked in reason, but it’s at root an emotional response to your wife not being who you thought she was. Who she will never be. It happened to me between one and two tears after the last D-Day. It passes.

Concentrate on you.

And the IRS.


With prayers,

ed: I thought I might try some speeling and punctuations.

edd: But not syntax.

Oh, also meant to include a note about IC. You know what the typical IC is going to tell you to do, don't you? Going to tell you to D.

After many an expensive session.

with prayers,

I think this is the conclusion I am getting to. I am trying to let WW simply be WW. I am also trying to get along with that person. I don't think I'm trying to avoid good advice. I honestly believe I have tried that good advice to no avail.

I am trying to love and honor WW as is her right. I am trying now to build my happiness around me and DDs. WW's happiness is her problem. We will be spending 5-6 weeks apart this summer and I am looking forward to it. As I have said before, my deal is not that bad. I miss being in love with WW. Oh well. I doubt that will ever come back now. But it isn't necessary either. Now that I am in my super dark Plan A, we are getting along fine. I wonder how long I can keep this up.

BTW when I have one of the most depressing threads on an already depressing web site - is that good or bad?

That's good, Pio.

Anyway, I don't think Gemela is ever going to express remorse. Her OM was so far below you in every way, that it would just be too hurtful for her. I don't think she has the strength to do it. He was only a fantasy, and I doubt that she will ever admit it.

However, I think the two of you can stay married and have a good marriage, if you are able to move on without an apology.

As for all the things she blames on you, that is just because she has come to rely on you so much. Don't take it personally. And ask her to check back in once in awhile.

Actually I totally agree. I never wanted an apology. She could have had remorse without ever having had apologized to me. It was never about that. It was me hoping she would recognize that her A was wrong - that it was against her entire belief system. Now I have to relearn who she is.

I made this thread just in case their might be other BS's who are/were stuck where I am/was. Tatertot started this. I can't imagine living like this for 3 or 4 more years.

What I am doing is changing my view on marriage and what it means. I am working to find the right lens through which to see all this so that I can see it clearly and enjoy the view. Gemela and I aren't changing. I was waiting for her to change. Now I have decided to change instead. I feel like I am groping around in the obscurity a little. I don't have a clear path and there is a fair amount of trial and error. The cornerstone of this building is the sure and certain knowledge that gemela is on zero tolerance. One more PA/EA offense and we part. That is the only way I can respect myself.

In one respect PB did have an advantage. He was younger than me. He had his whole lack of a future in front of him still. Sometimes I picture gemela living with him in a one-bedroom council flat or, worse yet, with his parents. Makes me laugh. Please allow me these brief but thoroughly satisfying moments.

Some things have definitely changed. I no longer hold anger in for days. I no longer have a fight and stay angry for days afterward. If I do have a fight, it is short, to the point, and over. Bygones. I also don't apologize much any more unless I think I was wrong. If I have to learn to live with the new gemela, she has to reciprocate. She doesn't like it? She knows where the door is. She's been through it a couple of times before.

I can't see gemela ever posting here again. It would be inconsistent with her current attitude. That is a shame because I think she and Myrta might have had a lot in common.

"In one respect PB did have an advantage. He was younger than me. He had his whole lack of a future in front of him still"

That is true - no prospects, no looks, no brains, nothing to offer, disease-ridden..... Need I go on?

Gemela had a fantasy. That was it. There was no future, it was all in her head.

Gotta love Myrta. I saw her posting here today. She was a typical WW when she came here. Gonna leave her doctor husband of 25 years for the troll. But boy has she changed.

I do think that Gemela knows her A was wrong and regrets it. I don't think she will ever admit it to you.

Blessings.

So I just need to learn to live with that. Working on it.

You know? Finding her secret stash of love letters and photos last year was a double-edged sword. That incident, above all else, has been the turning point of this whole mess.

Side one:
1) I saw PB for the loser he really was. I saw what a poor choice he was.
2) I regained my self-esteem in an instant.

Side two:
1) I saw gemela for the loser she really was.
2) I lost all respect for her.

'I never wanted an apology.'

I truely believe to settle for an apology as true remorse is quite superficial. How can somebody accept a simple 'sorry' as means of repentance? Remorse is required for recovery, but a simple sorry seems to me, well, a bit immature. I believe, that remorse, regret, from a Ws comes not from what is spoken, but what is shown through actions and accountability.

A little bit of a primitive perspective, I know. I've been on both sides of the fence. If I thought a simple 'Sorry' would heal my spouse....well, I have no business pretending to be an adult. My actions, or lack thereof attest to my remorse.

I am sorry so opinionated.

Following this thread with much interest!

With Love,

Dara

I haven't really been looking for an apology exactly. I will confess that I have had a recurring daydream where WW comes to me, opens herself up in humility, confesses all, begs forgiveness and swears undying love forever and I release all my pain in a flood of tears, we hug and kiss and live happily ever after.

rrrighttt......

Okay I'm awake now.

Apology. Oh yes.

No Apology was never really the indicator for me. To be honest, I never really had a vision of what that indicator would be. I always had this view that there would be a noticeable step-change. Obvious signs. I always believed that somehow I would see something different. I would know, from whatever idicator, that WW was truly remorseful.

If she is, the transition has been so smooth that I didn't pick it up. I can't say whether she is or not. We never discuss it. If we did, I wouldn't know whether she were telling the truth or not. So why bother? Right. Don't bother.

So what I need to do is change the way I view things. Focusing on me? I am doing that. I am working out literally day and night now. My activities center around DDs and me. I also have activities with WW but once I hit the 15 hour target, I don't try to push the envelope.

The simple answer to infidelity is divorce. Failure to do that means you need to change your view. I did change my view. Now I find I need to change it some more. I am searching for that balance. I have not yet found it but think I am getting closer rather than farther.

I also know that if WW walks out the door tonight, my life will be just fine. I'm not encouraging her to go. She has just forced me to consider that contingency. That is a difficult point to achieve for a new BS who will do anything to save his marriage. Now I still want to save the M but recognize it is not entirely in my hands. What I need to do is not intentionally jeapordize it. I am changing, growing, evolving. The anchor is the DDs. Whatever I do has to revolve around them. That's why I could so easily divorce WW for a new affair - I wouldn't want my DDs raised by that kind of a woman.

I never posted about the decision tree and I am reluctant to do so. (No amount of pleading will make me do it BTW) But I have a process. All I have done is change the benchmark and my process remains completely intact. My new benchmark is "what is best for the DDs?".

I remember years ago I saw a TV movie about the Watergate scandal. There was a part where G. Gordon Liddy was played by Robert Conrad ("Go ahead! Knock it off! I dare ya!"). He was in a restaurant or at a dinner party or some such. I can't remember how the conversation evolved but Robert Conrad took a burning candle and held one hand over it. He kept that hand there while the flame burned his skin and charred his flesh. All the while, he never blinked, flinched, moved a muscle.

After a while, he moved the candle away. Someone asked "What's the trick?". He replied "the trick is not minding".

Then again he WAS a psychopath.

I don't know about Liddy...maybe he was a psychopath too.

Anyway...Liddy is my role-model.

I think the fantasy of a remorseful WS running to you with tears, humilty, etc is a concrete way, a measurable goal if you will of putting this all behind you. Dont blame you for wanting that.

With that said...Be careful of becoming Jaded. It sounds like you are.

Dara

I think it's common for people 2 mistake this atti2de for jadedness. And that's understandable, in the scheme of the typical affair and recovery process duration.

I've been at this for 5 1/2 years since d-day, and I think I know exactly what pio is referring 2 here. I would rather never get an apology, or even a promise of NC, than get those things from a WW who may be just going through the motions 2 appease me.

When you do this for long enough, you do get 2 a point where you can see the evidence for progress, or no. My W still talks about her desire 2 have close male friends (really, Rat Meat) outside of our M and none of my business. She talks about these things when she's stressed or really angry at me. So, it comes out. And then I know where she's "at." But she'd also like us 2 be close, and whether she's willing 2 admit it or not - married.

So, I watch and I wait, and I keep focusing on my own recovery. And so I think I understand what pio is doing/saying. Like the time apart comment. My W will be gone for about 3 weeks in June, then I'll be gone for 3 weeks in August. I'll be meeting her at the end of her trip in June, but I'll be by myself on my August trip, and I'm really looking forward 2 that.

-ol' 2long

“The cornerstone of this building is the sure and certain knowledge that gemela is on zero tolerance. One more PA/EA offense and we part. That is the only way I can respect myself.”

I hope Gemela knows this. Make sure of it, in fact. Put it in writing and both of you sign it. Post-affair nuptial legal agreement kind of thing. Shines a little bit of light in the room.

Gemela sounds young, silly and self absorbed. I don’t think she understand or appreciates irony and sarcasm, sardonic or satirical. If she thinks she got away with adultery, or almost got away with it, she will definitely do it again.


“I do think that Gemela knows her A was wrong and regrets it. I don't think she will ever admit it to you.”

Well, I don’t know, Believer. Intellectually she may know, maybe. But she sounds mucho compartmented. I have my suspicions she has not processed the moral and ethical considerations of her adultery yet. She might, someday. But it will take a stimulus, perhaps stimuli. Take her (RC, right?) to Reconciliation, Pio. To a hard-nosed traditional confessor. Not of these lovey-dovey we are all sinners kind of guys. Both of you talk to him, and then she confesses. You too, preferably.


Pio, you say you like yourself now, and I believe you. But there is a huge load of residual indignation here. There is for me, too, but let’s not talk about me. (Talking about me is more interesting but talking about you is more fun.) You have made some progress intellectually processing the ego and self esteem hits. But there is a huge amount of emotional dust still settling. This crap takes years to sort out even with a truly remorseful FWW.

Find your long term pace, place and peace. Marathon talk, sorry. Start improving your life. Go out of your way to be nice to everyone. Be someone you are proud of. Accomplish cool things in your career. Be super dad. Get a PhD. Become an organ donor. Open doors for people. Pray.

I speak of loving detachment (= meeting ENs = love is a verb). Act loving towards everyone, including unremorseful FWW. Takes a while to get good at it. Takes practice. But it’s worth it.

I am amazed at how much better I started to feel once I put a larger chunk of my focus on me and on everyone around me. Not interested in others' focus on me. Not even FWW's focus on me. Just my own.


With prayers,

ed: Because I could.

Pio,

I think I was a lot like you I wanted to SEE remorse from my FWW. But we are two different people with two different ways of doing things.

My FWW has appologized for her A. Half heartedly to be honest. Radical honesty was like pulling teeth. She justified her behavior 7 ways to sunday.

But in the midst of all of that if I would have looked below the surface I would have seen my FWW's idea of remorse. She in some cases did and it wasn't what I wanted to see so I didn't see it as remorse.

Now today I see the remorse but not in a sullen way. Her remorse is a tool or a guide for not what to do in the future.

For instance my FWW used to spend a lot of money on herself. She was very selfish like that.

Now she is remorseful for spending it and she uses that as a reminder to not do it again. I don't see her sulking or appologizing all the time for the past event.

I see her remorse in not doing it.

The other thing I have personally noticed more now the further I get into recovery is her appreciation of me.

Especially now the appreciation that we are still married. There have been some instances lately where people around us are getting D'd because of infidelity.

She now sees that not everyone is willing to work toward recovery.

So I don't see remorse in an appologetic way. I see remorse guiding her actions today so she doesn't have to be remorseful for her actions today.

Look below the surface you may see her idea of what remorse is and you may like it.

Hey FNM, on another thread, Chapman's five love languages came up, he also talks about five apology languages.

http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/30sec.html

FNM, congratulations on your success in building your new marriage together with your wife. She was a "tough nut" and you really came through, there's a lot to admire in that.

Thank you Mates. I see you have a good mothers day coming up.

I think for me when I stopped looking for remorse and started looking for the actions. The actions being ones that show you given the opportunity to go back in the past would my FWW not have an A again.

I think today if I put my FWW in the same position she wouldn't .

That is what I need to know.

frog:

Good description of the process, I think.

-ol' 2long

LOL @ Aph <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've already been type-matched for people needing heart transplants. I hope to get the call any day.

I don't think I am jaded at all. I do think 2long understands what I am getting at. In some respects he has a better deal than I have because his (F)WW is more of a known entity. Mine is not so easily categorized. I have heard some comments from her recently during fights that remind me vividly of WW right after Dday. She is holding a lot in. Like the iceberg where most can't be seen.

Pio,

I have no words re: remorse but happened to have a horrible day and decided to check out MB since I have not signed on for months and noted your reappearance.

Wanted to thank you for all of your support since you disappearred so quickly from TKO way back when.

I am about to relocate in 4wks as single mom. D will be final in June and WH has settled down with one of his many OW's. Brings OW on his kid time adventures once a week and I've even had to suck it up and accept she is a part of his and my children's lives. Hopefully the move with me and the kiddo's will be the fresh start we all need. WH is remaining here and will be close to 1000 miles away after we relocate.

I am optimistic that the past year has been a reality check for me and the Good Lord is giving me an opportunity to start a clean slate and new life which is a pretty good deal considering what my children and I have been through this past 24 months.

Don't know what to say about your sitch...you are a patient man and only you know what you can live with and what your limits/needs/boundaries are...a year is really not that long in the great scheme of things considering it took probably at least as much time to unravel the M...keep your sense of humor and stubborness and aim it at M success...you are what you think!

Good Luck,
2mhb

You are a smart guy so I suppose you've read the IRS code regardibg your tax liability while living overseas. I don't think you can get out of paying the IRS unless you renounce your US citizenship...doesn't matter where you live or for how long....I don't think you are required to pay tax in both places though.

There's a ton of info about income tax and expats online...attorney's who specialize in those services etc.

Good luck with all that.

I sure do wish we'd go to the fair tax (a consumption tax) and get rid of the IRS and the giant tax code for good...hate it. There wouldn't be any loopholes, like for illegal aliens and those in the underground economy...I think we'd be freer and less of multiple taxations.

In my situation we weren't really in recovery until real remorse and total awareness of all he had done was clear to my H and he GOT IT. It sure doesn't seem like your wife gets it and I agree that because of that your marriage is vulnerable for her to have another affair on down the road.

But I HAVE been paying my income taxes. What they are trying to ding me for is that, since they have decided I don't live overseas, they are disallowing my foreign earned income exclusion. Since they won't give me the exclusion, it then becomes taxable income and, since I didn't pay income on the excluded amount, I owe interest and penalties as well.

The IRS has done this to over a dozen of my co-workers. It is a form letter they send out.

I satisfied the bona fide non-residency test over 10 years ago. Now I can be in the USA each year up to 180 days and still qualify for the FEIE. I wasn't. I was only there NINE DAYS. ARE YOU LISTENING CONRAD GONZALES??? They are just...what is the technical term?...oh, yes...IDIOTS!.

2much,

It is great to hear from you. I'm glad you transfer is finally going to happen. Just keep that Glock on safe until you are nicely unpacked in your new house.

Yes a year is not that long looking back. When you are living it, it just seems longer. But it really isn't. I was thinking back on some of my worse moments. Just being able to function again is a blessing.

WW may well have another A. That will always be her choice. I know what I will do if she does. I can't dwell on that though. Right now I am just taking each day as it comes. I worry about me. And making me better a little more each day.

FNM,

I believe this is the evolution I have come to - stop looking for what I consider remorse. I'm not ready to look below the surface yet. I just take things at face value without prejudice. I am not, at the moment, interested in analyzing WW's actions and trying to arbitrarily assign motive to them without any guidance from her.

I think I just need a vacation from infidelity. Having to work two years without a vacation is illegal in many countries.

Pio,

Then don't analyze her actions. Just live and breath today.

With her in an infidelity free day. Build on each day.

I found the nicer I was to my FWW the more remorseful she seemed.

I think some of the justifications wore off in a sense. She sees how great I am and I am sure the thought runs through her mind she almost lost me.

She shows me apprecaiton for what I do now.

But I think it stems from me treating her well.

Well I think maybe I will take that vacation from infidelity then. I was about to pack and then, at the last minute, decided to try to not take any baggage with me.

FWIW, this has been revelational to me. Fundamental problems I still see are communications and boundaries. I vaguely remember getting into arguments with ToddAC about how invariant he was in his boundary conditions and yet I fell into the same trap. I think, in some cases, that on the path to recovery you need to occasionally move the fence posts.

I also have posted this a very long time ago and I still believe it. MB, SAA, HNHN offer excellent advice on what to do in the initial crisis. They offer an excellent plan to stop the divorce. MB also offers great advice on how to significantly improve the M after recovery is achieved. But there is a huge grey area in between those two milestones that nobody really talks about. I hope this thread has been helpful to someone. I know it was to me.

Oops! There's my boarding announcement. Gotta run.

And yet I saw and still see HNHN and LB as a roadmap for recovery....

GET YOUR KOOL AID HER FOLKS. KOOL AID. ONLY ONE FLAVOR. GET YOUR KOOL AID HERE.

LOL Pio.

In SAA, "Sue" never apologized for her affair, but I think she showed remorse in other ways. More importantly, she eventually showed a commitment to the marriage and worked with her husband to recover.

When that doesn't happen though, what does one do? A marriage can’t continue if only one partner steadfastly ignores a need for reconciliation, can it? It might go on in name, but the spirit is surely dead, right?

Actually, is the affair truly over when no such commitment is declared? Actually, I see such things happening repeatedly. They are especially a problem if the BS allows the WS to “come home” (he or she may never actually have physically left) before the BS gets a strong pledge regarding boundaries, emotional needs, and before a commitment for recovery is elicited from the WS.

Assume that happens during Plan A, and let’s even postulate NC is established. Has the affair actually ended until the emotional absenteeism ends and the WS commits to filling the ENs of the BS, and (vice versa) allowing the BS to fulfill the ENs of the WS?

If one can consider the affair to be in a de facto “ongoing” status, what does one do? Does one continue with Dr. Harley's strategy as if the affair was still ongoing?