I have a friend who is having great difficulty with a situation, in fact, a situation I have seen repeated in various forms here and on other forums, and I have never seen a suitable solution for it.

Here is his/their situation (which sounds like about 50% of every 70's based relationship you come across).

He has a wife of 32 years. They lived together about 2 years before they were married.

While they were living together, he went from one one-night-stand to another, while she stayed at home.

Later on in the relationship, she began to learn of some of his actions and naturally felt pretty unloved. Eventually, she started a relationship with another man that lasted about two months.

Eventually, my friend and his wife-to-be, made up, and married.

There were normal issues in the marriage, but they managed to mostly have a good marriage and raise decent kids despite their rocky start.

One of the issues in the marriage was sex. Eventually, my friend ended up having a brief sexual affair, but ended it when the conviction of the wrong he was doing nipped at his conscience. He kept the knowledge of the affair to himself. The affair occurred somewhere around year 15 of the marriage. In the years after the affair, he did everything he could to correct his issues, and be a better husband. The sex starved state of the marriage continued, the difference this time was that he would never try to fix it with an affair.

Move forward to about year 30 of the marriage. Friend and wife have finally solved the sexual portion of their marriage, and things are moving along well. They are feeling like they are newly in love. One day, because of some statement made by his wife that had always haunted my friend, he asked his wife a direct question, and she told him of the affair she had before they were married.

Here is where things get interesting. He finds himself devastated like a newcomer here, even though the affair is 30 years old. His wife feels like it is of no or limited importance because it was 30 years ago, and because he was fooling around and because it was before they were married. She claims to have been faithful since.

Regardless, he is crushed, crushed to the point that he loses his desire (and I guess his love) for her. With the facts being what they are, I thought that his feelings for his wife would come back in a short time. So my advice was just to relax, treat your wife with love and kindness, date her, etc..., and all would be well, the pain would diminsh.

It has now been over a year, and while he has dealt with the emotional pain and forgiven her, his desire has not returned. They are having sex but not often. He claims to love her, and I believe him, but he says that "something broke" when he found out, and he has not been able to recover the way he felt about his wife before he found out. he claims to have a high sex drive, so occasional sex is obviously not his norm, even though that is what he is doing.

She knows about his 15 year old affair and thinks that he is not being fair to her. As far as "fair" goes, I agree, and he does as well, but he still can't shake the past.

His major difficulty is that if he had known about her affair, there is a good chance he would not have married her. It seems to me that he can't get past the "what ifs".

I would really like to help him, but he won't go to counseling, and he won't come here because he doesn't believe that there is a fix. He is not treating his wife poorly, but his state of mind is obviously affecting their relationship. His wife is hurting from the guilt and she is feeling like she trapped him into marriage. She doesn't believe that he still loves her.

I don't think she would have "trapped" him or anything else from malice, she just doesn't seem to be the type.

The solution she has offered him is divorce, so that he is free to re-choose her or not. She didn't make the offer to him from anger. Regardless, I think that it is an incredibly bad idea.

Okay folks, I will answer any question that I can. I am open to any and all ideas regardless of what approach they come from. The couple is well versed in affairs and relationships and have read every book I could think of, including SAA, NOT Just Friends, etc....

Please help if you can, this one has me baffled.

Gimble

Gimble:

My Take:

Your Friend is an Idiot and lucky she will have him.

He's ONS'ed everywhere during thier dating period, and she had one opportunity and now "he's stuck at what if"

What if he wasn't a joke?

5 iron over.

He needs to be honest with his wife. Start there. Really. Get a copy of the sexual History Questionaire from this website and give it to your friend. Have him complete it. If he is embarrassed, have him go over it with you.

Performance anexity (sp) and detachment come from his shock to find out that someone was capable of doing the same thing he was doing.

If he can't be honest with you, he will NEVER get there with his W.

If it has been a year, it's time for him to man up.

LG

I think your answer is in this paragraph.

It's about accepting responsibility for ones own choices, and for ones life.

Is this really about the affair Gimble, or is it about someone who has regrets that he has not lived the life he really wanted to?

Is his ego so big, that he cannot accept the fact that his W had SF with another man (while he was doing the same with other women?) I doubt it, so it has to be deeper.

Self-forgiveness and acceptance of our own responsibility in the life we have chosen may be at the core oF his loss of love for his wife (misplaced).

If this is so, his wife can stand lovingly by him while he comes to some realizations (as we all must eventually do to find inner peace).

Not very practical advise, but these are my thoughts on what you have written.

Gimble,

Has he or have they tried any individual or marriage counseling?

Is he the kind of guy that revels in his dispair so he can be the one requiring the stroking and attention and manipulates the other spouse or friends from that standpoint?

This does seem to be very petulant behavior on his part to the extreme.

Do they have kids? So if he knew of this A 30 years ago and not married her, are those children not a joy to be considered? Or would it matter if they never existed?

Everything happens for a reason, correct? If he believes that then he should foegedaboudit.

I agree with you about the "what ifs". There has got to be something deeper going on.

Thats all I got.

kirk

LG.

I agree he is a lucky man. He is also not a joke. He knows what he did and is and all that. He says he is desperate to get past it. He is genuinely "stuck".

As far as I know, he has been completely honest with his wife and me, and as I posted, they solved their sexual issues previously.

Weaver.

You raised excellent points. The sex with another man is not an issue with him.

Quoting you: "Self-forgiveness and acceptance of our own responsibility in the life we have chosen may be at the core or his loss of love for his wife (misplaced).

If this is so, his wife can stand lovingly by him while he comes to some realizations (as we all must eventually do to find inner peace)."

I think that is an excellent observation. That is on my list for consideration.

Kirk

She is willing to go to counseling, he is not. I understand why he won't, and I can't argue with his reasons.

I would agree with the petulance, if it weren't for the genuineness of his pain, and his desire to see the "feeling" end.

They have children, and they are very much loved and cared for. These are good solid family people.

Quote:"I agree with you about the "what ifs". There has got to be something deeper going on."
I agree, Any ideas? Weaver made a good point.

Thanks folks for the comments. I have seen so many people here and on other forums suffer from an inability to move out of the past. I understand that most of it stems from their inability to process the emotional pain (probably mostly men), but there are the ones that don't seem to fit any pattern. Those always get my attention.

Gimble

Eventually, my friend ended up having a brief sexual affair, but ended it when the conviction of the wrong he was doing nipped at his conscience. He kept the knowledge of the affair to himself. The affair occurred somewhere around year 15 of the marriage

So...he committed adultery and she doesn't know it.

Yet, she went out on him BEFORE they were married (as he did),he has now found out about it and he is CHOOSING to make it a marriage-ending issue... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

My suggestion would be to tell him that he has to come TOTALLY clean about the adultery so that his wife can choose whether or not she wants to remain married to HIM.

See how he processes that.

committed

Hi, Committed.

She does know about his affair.

Let me reiterate, he is not choosing to make anything marriage ending. His only difficulty is that he has lost his desire for his wife. That is a feeling.

He is not blaming anyone or anything, merely stating how it all made him feel.

That feeling is nothing really new to betrayed spouses here. In this case, he wants things to be the way they were. His desire is to see the marriage heal, not come unglued.

Also, let's be careful not to get into the "two wrongs make a right" here. She is hurt from his betrayal, he is hurt from hers. Also, not everyone has a strong sense of "fair". That is just one type of personality.

Thanks for the comments.

Gimble

Gimble:

Two things come to mind:


Ummm, could it be that he had suspicions for a very long time but didn't want to rock the boat? That and;


There is something going on he won't say. In his private, secret heart, he is processing something, something that he will not talk about with his wife or you. He fears going to counseling will out whatever it is.


Maybe yes, maybe no. I do not think it is a coincidence that this came up, along with the question he asked, after supposedly solving their 30 year SF problem, whatever that was.

This is a guy who plowed every unguarded field he could find and then married the "Good girl," who turned out not to be so good after all, yes?

Classic madonna complex. It is likely he hasn't a clue about women's sexuality. A good sexologist can fix him up quick. The damage here is about his perception of women that his wife helped cultivate for 30 years with her "problem."

I know you get it by now, but I will use an example. Leave us say that the problem was a lack of OS from her. This would certainly cement any madonna complex he would have. Then she solves that (or they do together) and now the old nag in his mind that he thought was just a bad tickle turns out to be not only right, but he wonders if the OM got OS which was denied to him for 30 years.

Real hair ball you found there Gimble. And he is far from fessing up all that he is thinking. Betcha a pint on that one.

Larry

Hi Gimble

I thought your original post said that he kept his affair from her.


When I say choosing to make it a marriage-ending issue, it will end the marriage in the biggest sense of the word. It doesn't necessarily mean a divorce...just an end to the marriage as they know it. He has lost desire for her, and you said that he had lost his love too.

No desire + no love is equal to no marriage imho.

committed

Gimble,
This just goes to show the need to completely know everything about your prosepective mate before you march up the altar to say 'I DO.'

Secrets of this type are simply lies of ommision that will always find a way to surface in the future if not dealt with before hand. It's like a poison that will seep up to the surface one day and leave a bitter taste you can't seem to shake.

Here's a different twist if you will allow me, suppose the w's pre marital A resulted in a pregnacy, that w found a way to hide and hid it from your friend. Would he have a right to know this before he M'd her?

Just curious as to where we all draw the line.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Gimble:

Larry Said it well. ANd I'm in for the pint.

There is something deeper. That is why I asked about the Sexual History Questionaire.

Get that 800 pound gorilla, whatever it is, out in the open, then it can be dealt with.

Maybe your friend needs to know what his W did do with the other guy. It could be OS. Could be whatever. But he needs to get honest. With himself, and then with his W.

Hi, committed.

He did keep his affair from her, but eventually told her.

Quoting from the original post:
"She knows about his 15 year old affair and thinks that he is not being fair to her. As far as "fair" goes, I agree, and he does as well, but he still can't shake the past."

Thanks for your comments.

Gimble

Pardner, my first reaction was your friend is being a drama queen and urgently needs a hard kick in the [censored]. On reflection, I think my first idea was spot on. Please administer the wakeup call to your friend at your earliest opportunity.

Come on…he’s admitted (to you) multiple instances of cheating on her (after establishing a committed relationship), including at least one after they were married, and HE is pissed off? If there’s one thing I hate about my fellow man, it’s the double standard some of them espouse. Your friend is one of them. He can hide his adultery, and that’s okay because he felt guilty, but his girlfriend straying once is a catastrophic betrayal? Give me a break.

Frankly, Gimble, all you can do is give this guy advice straight from the cuff. He needs to go to a counselor with his wife and lay it all out. If he doesn’t, the marriage is going to be irrevocably damaged and will probably fail. Do you actually need friends who are that irrational?

Gimble,

In summary, to keep a long answer short-er, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> obviously counseling would be the best thing for the two of them as a couple and for him as an individual. As he put it, "something broke" and I suspect a counselor could help him pinpoint what broke and how to fix it. Along with the others, I speculate if he has something to hide if he absolutely refuses to go to counseling.

HOWEVER, working 100% with what you have laid out here, I actually do have a thought, and it's a little long and rambly so hang with me! When a person gets raped, they often long for the day when everything "is the way it used to be" and I suspect your friend is rather mourning for this himself. But, once a person is raped, they are changed...and things will never be "the way they used to be." Some innocence has been lost. So has some naivety! There may never again be that feeling of controlling safety. These things are forever CHANGED. So a rape victim has to decide to accept that it will never "be the way it used to be" and that they will have to be who they are NOW.

I believe it's probably something similar for a person who finds out about an A. While the WS and the BS may reconcile and have a better, stronger M...the fact that they were virgins when they married and now they've lost that exclusivity is HUGE. BS saved themselves for the specialness of marriage, and now WS has "been with" someone else...and even if the M is reconciled, losing that often "breaks something." Soooo...some day the BS has to decide to accept that it will never "be the way it used to be" and accept that they are where they are NOW....that it's something completely different.

I suspect your friend needs to have this kind of moment. It's not really about "forgiveness" because it sounds like he has forgiven her if there's anything to even really forgive! But it's really more about just making a DECISION to go forward from where they are NOW. I suspect he needs to decide to accept that 30 years ago his W was with someone else, and then CHOSE him and has lived with him and been with him through thick and thin for 3 decades. That she is who she is NOW...TODAY. Not his illusion...not what he thought she was...but SHE IS WHO SHE IS: his wife of 30 years and the woman who has shared her bed with him that whole time.

I think he needs to DECIDE to live with it.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Hi, Longhorn.

Obviously, just telling him to "get over it" didn't work, that's why I came here.

Why is it a double standard for him to be upset that she cheated?

If you cheated on your wife because she was cheating on you, does that make it a draw? I think not. That makes two people who screwed up. If one of them has more trouble dealing with it than the other, then that's just the way it is.

I agree with you that the marriage is going to be damaged, in fact already is being damaged.

Not all my friends are irrational, but the truth is that we all are at different points in our lives. Besides that, I can't give up on him, he is too much like I was back in the day.

Gimble

FaithfulWifeCJ
Good post, I agree 100%.

All Blessings Jerry

he won't go to counseling, and he won't come here because he doesn't believe that there is a fix.

He knows very well there's a fix because he's read all the great relationship books and he has you, wise counsel, as an intimate friend.

Therefore he is deliberately avoiding any possibility of a "fix" IMO.

I have no doubts he hurt just like a new BS. Its a dreadful shock,and it must have been made worse for him by the fact that he could hardly feel justified as the obvious "victim" in this situation having had affairs of his own.

she thinks that he is not being fair to her see ?

So in order to retain the high ground in some way, and to get his W to invest unequal pity and amelioration into their relationship he deliberately does not seek to resolve this manifestation of his hurt.

In summary - BS need a penitent FWS to help them start repairing, but when our FWS has previously been a BS there is unlikely to be the same black and white role casting that there is in previously faithful marriages.

By not fixing his hurt, he gets the pennance and investment he feels he needs, but which their unique history will not facilitate.

He feels entitled to feel like the victim, but history says that he cannot any more than his wife was.

He needs to pull his finger out and realise his pouting may just lose him his precious baby.

my $0.02

Great post from Larry.

""Quote:"I agree with you about the "what ifs". There has got to be something deeper going on."
I agree, Any ideas?""

Way down deep in his heart of hearts, he is panicing and a full blown mid life crises is crashing down on him and he sees this "feeling" as a way to jump ship and not be his fault...And he has been waiting for over a year for the right time.

Just an idea.

""She is willing to go to counseling, he is not. I understand why he won't, and I can't argue with his reasons.""

I am sorry, but I don't understand it. Because he thinks it's not fixable??

If this is the reason this seems very lame to me. He should be trying everything to get rid of the "feeling" if he is serious. Heck try hypnosis.

kirk

bOb has hit the nail on the head...

""So in order to retain the high ground in some way, and to get his W to invest unequal pity and amelioration into their relationship he deliberately does not seek to resolve this manifestation of his hurt.""

""By not fixing his hurt, he gets the pennance and investment he feels he needs, but which their unique history will not facilitate.""

This sounds very much like the answer, and he probably is not even consciencely doing it, but by not going to therapy or counseling he maybe sub-consciencely avoids discovering this and can continue on in his own fog of pain.

He is reveling in his misery and dispair waiting for his wife to grovel and crawl back to him, which ain't going to happen because IT WAS 30 YEARS AGO!!!

OK, bOb, ""amelioration""?? I looked it up and got the following:
–noun 1. an act or instance of ameliorating; the state of being ameliorated.
2. something that ameliorates; an improvement.
3. melioration (def. 1).

Pronunciation[uh-meel-yuh-rey-shuhn,

Well at least I now know how to pronounce it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

kirk

K, "making amends, making right"

Here's a different twist if you will allow me, suppose the w's pre marital A resulted in a pregnacy, that w found a way to hide and hid it from your friend. Would he have a right to know this before he M'd her?

I know you're busy gimble, but have you thought about this Q?

All Blessings,
Jerry

Thanks very much everyone for your great posts.

As for what he may be hiding, I suspect he is hiding the true depth of his pain, but we will see.

I am going to process everything you all have written and see what I can squeeze out of him in the next couple of days. I will report back.

God bless,
Gimble

bP,

Gotchya.

Gimble, the double standard exists in that he didn't expose his own adultery to his wife but he clearly expects his wife should have told him about her infidelity 30 years ago. By your words, he STILL hasn't told his wife about his adultery at the 15 year point in their marriage. He made that arbitrary decision, but complains she was obligated to tell him of hers. Excuse me?

Nope, two wrongs don't make a right, and I don't think I suggested such. However, expecting your spouse to adhere to a standard you will not isn't kosher either.

I hope they work things out but, frankly, I see little chance of that happening based on what you've relayed to us. What I was thinking when I asked if you need friends who won't use common sense, was a concern that you might get swept up in the train wreck I see coming.

Best regards and good luck.

Jerry wrote:
======================================
Here's a different twist if you will allow me, suppose the w's pre marital A resulted in a pregnacy, that w found a way to hide and hid it from your friend. Would he have a right to know this before he M'd her?

I know you're busy gimble, but have you thought about this Q?
======================================

I'm sure that he would. Wouldn't you want to know?

I'm not sure I am seeing your point.

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble, I think he is using her affair as an excuse to not desire her. The real reason he doesn't desire her is something else. Sometimes jealousy makes us desire someone even more. In this case he desires her less. I think it is easier for him to say he has lost his desire for her because of the affair rather than the real reason.

Longhorn wrote:
===============================================
Gimble, the double standard exists in that he didn't expose his own adultery to his wife but he clearly expects his wife should have told him about her infidelity 30 years ago. By your words, he STILL hasn't told his wife about his adultery at the 15 year point in their marriage. He made that arbitrary decision, but complains she was obligated to tell him of hers. Excuse me?
===============================================

Thirty plus years ago, she knew that he was fooling around, so he was exposed. She chose not to tell him of her infidelity then. At the time of marriage, there was not additional infidelity on his part. So she knew about him, he did not know about her.

Back to my first post, his issue is if he had known then, would he have even married her. He is not trying to justify his actions of infidelity.

Are you with me?

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble,
Your friend is stuck, I'm simply trying to define at what point a BS becomes stuck at. It would seem that he is stuck at his W's prior infidelity before they even married.
So as a BS, where do we draw the line? What becomes a deal breaker, and what is it we can live with?

Your friend, IMHO, has drawn a very high line of morality for his W, while completely ignoring his own immorality. This, to me, would suggest a double line concerning HIS morality versus HERS.
Why the double standard? These are rehotorical Q's he must ask himself. Where do each of us draw the line in the sand? Why does it apply differently to you than it does to our spouse?

Just curious.

All blessings,
Jerry

Yes, I apologise, I was like your friend, looking for justification for my "stuckness."

I'm sorry,
All blessings,
Jerry

But, Gimble, he's saying he had a right to make a decision (whether to stay or go) at the time of her (unexposed) infidelity, but he HAS DENIED HER that same right in connection with HIS unexposed infidelity. Don't you see that as a double standard? Why does he have the right of opting out of the marriage at the time of the infidelity but she doesn't?

BTW, I don't equate her finding out about his infidelity with him admitting it to her at the time and place. Did any admission actually happen before she confronted him with her knowledge?

Gimble,

""She is willing to go to counseling, he is not. I understand why he won't, and I can't argue with his reasons.""

Please explain.

If you understand why he is not willing to go to counseling then maybe you have the answer yourself.

And why can't you argue with his reasoning?

Thanks,

kirk

Jerry wrote: "Why does it apply differently to you than it does to our spouse?"

That is the question, isn't it, yet I see the disparity in play all the time.

I am amazed at some of the betrayed spouses on this forum that seem to walk through their wayward spouse's affair like it was nothing more than a breeze, while others completely fall apart, almost unable to breathe.

That is why I try not to judge harshly in a situation where both spouses have been unfaithful, and one has greater difficulty with it than the other. Everyone has their own breaking point.

God bless,
Gimble

Hi, krusht.

He feels that he has read all the good books, and that the books are supposedly written by the best minds out there. So he thinks that his chances of finding a local counselor that can "top the top", are slim.

Obviously, he is of a mindset that he won't get anything out of it, so I agree with him. I think it would be a waste of time if he is unwilling to chance it.

Gimble

Do you know the guy's mother, if she is still around and what kind of person she is or was? Madonna complex has many manifistations. I used one of the variants from the classic (in my mind). Maybe there is another term to explain:

The woman for marriage is "Pure." The woman for passion is, uh, "Tainted." It is that simple. And many, many men are so afflicted. His sexual escapades reveal an entitled personality which is typical of those males with the above mentioned complex.

Shinethrough says the same thing, basically:


You said you understood why he wouldn't go to counseling, but didn't exactly detail why other than he doesn't think it can be fixed. While I understand that some counselors are about as ethical as politicians, I am still surprised that you wouldn't at least refer him to the Harleys. If you haven't shared why, then I suspect most of us are whistling in the wind to help with any degree of understanding.

When he discover that his wife knew about his 15 year old affair? Was it just before he started having his problems? If so, there is another direction to explore.

Finally, tell him to try viagra. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, the guy is covering up. If not, then stealing a line from Bob, he needs to pull his head out.

Larry

Hi, Longhorn.

Quote:
==============================================
...but he HAS DENIED HER that same right in connection with HIS unexposed infidelity.
==============================================

That is true, he did for a time. Since his exposure, his wife is clear and free to make a choice to leave him. He understands that. She understands that.

Regardless, his issue (she has her own set of issues with the situation), is that he was uniformed of her affair at the initiation of their marriage, while she WAS informed of his activities at the initiation of the marriage.

He views his affair 15 years into the marriage as a separate event, obviously, that as a matter of course, might very well NOT have happened had he known the truth before marriage.

Whether that plays into anyone's sense of "fair", to him, is immaterial. He feels he has taken responsibility for his past actions.

Gimble

Gimble, the same thing happened to me while I was engaged, my H was having an affair. I found out in the first year of our marriage. Had I known about all this, I would have chosen NOT to marry him. This was information about him to which I was ENTITLED but it was wrongfully withheld from me. I was tricked and DEFRAUDED into marrying him and deeply resented it. How DARE anyone make decisions about my life without my PERMISSION?

That is how I felt then and is how I feel now.

That being said, over time those feelings have faded. My husband has demonstrated over the years that he is a worthwhile husband and I am glad to have him for a husband NOW. But it took some time to view it that way. I do know that I have always had the option of divorcng him and your friend has this option open to him also. He CAN take it if he feels she is not worth it.

I will also point out that your friend is at a critical place in his recovery where many BS' are quite angry. For me, it was at the 8-9 month mark and I see this happen in the recovery process with many BS. It is when the shock wears off and fury sets in. It seemed to be the CLIMAX for me. This phase passed pretty quickly, and after the 1 year mark things got better and better every month. He may be at that phase RIGHT NOW. So, tell him to wait another year until he makes any decisions about his marriage. This may all be a forgotten memory in a years time.

Gimble:


I need orchid to interpret that one. It makes absolutely no rational whatsover (ever, whatever, sover, uh, duh). Is he an otherwise sane type of person except at a full moon?

OR, does that mean if he had known she was THAT sexual, he coudda got (demanded, pushed, cajoled) what he missed those 30 years since she obviously was, uh, er, gasp, a fallen woman?

You play golf with this guy? You owe him money? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hair ball turning into sticky hair ball.

Larry

Larry

Hi gimble,
]
Urrrr,,,,, I don't think I wrote this, but noneteless, I think it's a good quote.

Nonetheless, I know what it feels like to be be "stuck." I've known it all my M'd life. However, having said that, I also am cognizant of what God means by being in a Covernant marriage.

God hates divorce, and that's the bottom line. Stuck or unstuck is irrevelant. We can only be what He want's us to be, when we die to ourselves.


All Blessings,
Jerry

Hi, Larry.

His parents are long dead.

He doesn't want to counsel with the Harleys because they are younger than him.

His 15 year old, 2 month affair was exposed well after she confessed to her 30 year old, 2 month affair.

(Man, this would make a good movie).

He doesn't need viagra. His parts work, his "want to" is broken.

Obviously, "the fix" is for him to just get past it. I am just trying to help him find an anchoring point, not slap him upside the head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gimble

Mel, thank you for sharing that. I will pass that directly along to him.

Gimble

Gimble,

Perhaps the issue is being framed incorrectly. Let's conjecture that this is not about what is "fair" or who did what to whom with regard to her affair, and his ONS and subsequent affair in the marriage.

What if this is about his values. Some have mentioned the Madonna complex. I'm thinking he fears being compared to another man. I'm thinking if he feels he is too old for the Harley's, that he is losing some self-confidence in his abilities, and that coupled with age will in fact drop the desire...way down.

Also knowing now that his W is capable of lying to him for 30 years, really affects his confidence to see and feel things.

I would recommend that you talk to him along those lines. In short this is not really about his W, but about himself and his fears. He actually seems to have many fears if you look back on what you said and given his affairs. Which fear is controling the game right now?

Ask him WHY he had the ONS, and the affair on his W. I'll bet if he is honest with himself he feared something, maybe just not getting "enough". But, it seems to me the key is for him to identify what he "fears". His W is a good woman, their sex life is/was on the up tick. She loves him and wants the best for him. What is it he fears? Could be now that he knows she is a sexual woman, he fears he cannot keep up with her, and that coupled with the KNOWLEDGE that she is capable of having an affair and not tell him or he suspect, causes a real fear of commitment on his part.

So focus on that part is my recommendation.

JL

Maybe yes, maybe no. When the parts start to go west for various chemical reasons, the first fade out is during relationships, not during self inflicted pleasures or even "involuntary biological seizures." Sometimes this can be interpreted as a failure to connect with partner since otherwise the parts seem to still be working ok.

Just for the record.

Larry

Wow, I really feel sorry for his wife. He sounds very controlling and manipulative. All he's doing is using her pre-marital affair to deflect attention away from his marital affair so he doesn't have to take responsibility for it. And of course his affair was worse. It happened AFTER they married. Hers happened before marriage when he was also not monogamous and therefore had not made a commitment to her. As far as I can see, she did nothing to require forgiveness from him at all. If she was my friend, I'd tell her to kick him to the curb and go find someone who doesn't have so many hangups.

Now now AP. You made a good point, then:


Tsk tsk. You haven't kicked your spouse to the curb and you don't want to be kicked to the curb for what you have done, right?

That said, I do remember cruisegonebad and her situation and I finally told both of them husband was a complete jerk and she needed to go find a human being to have a relationshp with. So it can be that be a route, but only after trying real hard to take a different path.

Oh, and husband didn't like me a lot. And he was the ONLY one on here who has gotten my wife mad enough to roast. Otherwise, she just reads a bit and goes on about her business. It was a similar situation to this one.

larry

Was he tasty?

ROTFLMAO

Only if you like toast. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Semi private joke folks. Fugitaboutit.

Larry

LOL Larry. I was just playing with you.

Larry -- actually Cruise and I are still lurking here. We are about 3 yrs and 3 mos into this and still no resolution. We have been through much counseling, etc. The one thing I have the most difficulty getting others to understand is that the 7-year lie about Cruise's A really crushed me to the point I may never recover. I'm sorry you consider me a jerk - I consider myself one who is looking for answers to what may be an unanswerable question. I will never find the words to help you understand and you clearly gave up listening long ago. That's OK, because we are all just an anonymous community of people in similar circumstances, not family.

I actually was going to respond to the original post when I read down the thread a little further and saw your post. What I was going to say was "maybe there are just some people whose makeup leads to this kind of pain/difficulty/'unforgiveness'." The fact that he also hid his own marital A for 15 years drives me nuts (as in why are you taking the "do as I say and not as I do" approach?). However, I can understand that he could have a deep-in-the-soul feeling that he just can't shake. Perhaps his W, being of a different makeup, just does not share the same kind of feeling regarding his 15 years of lying. That does not lessen the pain of his own feelings nor does it make them any less valid. My $0.02 worth.

Todd

Todd - there are a few posters - Nif for one on the "Just Found Out" forum that could benefit from your words.

Gimble ~ I think JL is right about the "right frame" being drawn on it

Theres a couple of interesting things that have been suggested that I think hit the mark.

He thought he knew his wife of 30 years. He thought she was the good one and he was the bad one. (I'll be willing to bet he carries some guilt for his behavior in the past). I think it is a shock to find out that she's not the "good" one - she's a messy complicated human being like the rest of us.

So, he is trying to adjust to the stranger he's been married to for 30 years..thats a HUGE factor in the BS pain and chaos that happens after D-Day. When reality gets turned inside and out, it takes a bit to adjust...

Melody is right about the timing. I certainly went through the same anger about a year after recovery started.

Then we get to the messy part about his desire for his wife.

I'd be interested to know what "frame" did he put around his wife's disinterest in sex?

If he struggled through his marriage with a distorted frame about her sexual difficulties then I would imagine that this new information has got to throw him for a loop.

What if (just guessing because of course I don't know your friend or know the details)...he thought her lack of desire was because of his 'dirty' affairs....and he felt he deserved it, only to find out that she is no better?

What if now, he is terrified that her lack of desire for him was because that other guy 30 years was just mindblowingly better, and her lack of desire was because he was pathetic in bed?

Melody,

The difference is, you were not doing those same things (he had multiple one-night stands while they lived together)and expecting different treatment.

That's the problem that I see.

committed

Gimble:

JL has hit the nail on the head better than I could or did. And BR has added to the concepts. I didn't think about your friend's self esteem issues and women. Given his serial past, that may be a lurker for sure. Both your friend and his wife are not the same people they were 30 years ago or even 15, but they do have a lot of the same fears and issues now as they did then. Some parts of us are fundamental and some change in time. Your friend's wife is not the same person in terms of sexual mores as she was 30 years ago or even a year ago. Neither is your friend, but he still has some fears he cannot process very well, it seems to me.

I still think that the fact he asked a question after all these years is a string that needs pulling, likely the biggest one when you go back into question mode.

I am curious if his wife had no interest in sex or certain sexual activities - that could be important. See BR's comment.

Because we are all trained (or should be) in Harley talk, we are conditioned to view a fact revealed to us after XX number of years to have been living a lie all that time. And I suppose that the person who didn't tell might think that way but probably not; certainly the person told would likely give that spin on it even without Harley's stuff.

Yet the hidden or real reason someone doesn't reveal is most often fear or embarrassment; after all, your friend kept his own secrets for 30 years. The person who didn't tell doesn't think in terms of living a lie, they think in terms of outcomes; if I told, I fear the outcome so I won't tell. Both reactions are very human and consistent with personal views. Simply put, most relationships don't have the level of intimacy where some private thoughts can be revealed to the partner without fear of consequences, so they are filed away, never to see the light of day except in extraordinary circumstances. I would bet that the majority of both men and women carry around some deep, dark secret they have never told their mate that interferes with true intimacy.

Certainly your friend has carried his own secrets around with him for a very, very long time. So he should be able to understand the concept if he thinks about it that way instead of just his own entitlement. Perhaps he has yet more secrets in his heart and is using his wife's revealed secret to escape intimacy.

Since Todd is here, let me use his situation as an example; his wife was seduced (gave in to her weaknesses) many years ago by someone who used the techniques clearly detailed by an ex-cruise ship crewman in their thread. That is the short version. Those techniques are part of Harley's message that even good people can fall into affairs without extraordinary protection. At the right time, right place, right person who uses those techniques, a very high percentage of women (again right time right place) would have serious difficulty resisting to protect their weaknesses.

By right time, I mean level of maturity, level of intimacy with husband and immediate hormonal levels. Right place and right person is obvious. Vulnerable women can be overwhelmed with their feelings; they handle their sexuality different from men. And women are clearly sexual beings.

So 30 years ago, your friend's wife gave in to her weaknesses. I suspect she may have known of your friend's ways at the time and may very well have had in the back of mind that she wanted to enter in marriage with him on an equal footing; get it out of her system as she thought he might be doing or just to get even as knowledge of what he was doing at the time would have hurt her. She may have even forgotten at this late date why she did it. It is real hard after 30 years to remember a time you have put behind you and why you did what you did back then.

What outcome does he want? Limbo is not a natural state unless there is something unrevealed that keeps it that way. I hope he doesn't go into limbo.

Gimble; you have a lot to chew on. Are you up for it? He fears the Harley's. And he says it is because of age. Is he really telling you everything that in his head? Somehow I doubt it. Does he understand everything in his head? That too is questionable.

And finally, one other point. Some males need the illusion of some sort of superiority to get it up. And an even moral footing with a woman intimidates them. True intimacy intimidates them.

Good luck, hope all of us have given you food for thought.

Larry

From Penalty Kill

Gimble:

Finding out about a long past A is much different than discovering that an A is ongoing. Yes, there are similarities in BS pain, but I'm not here to discuss that. The difference is in what the BS can actually do.

A BS who discovers his WS in an A can act and hopefully affect the outcome of the A. There's power in that. When you find out about a long past A, you lose that power - the power to do something to stop the A, to confront your spouse and/or the OP at the time of the A, to expose. It's just not the same - it's history, and unless you have a time machine you can't affect history.

Your friend has just become powerless in many ways.

And what's another word for power? Potency. Now he is impotent....not physically, but mentally.

My .02

Gimble, did you post this problem looking for insight to the specific question involving your friend, or were you hoping for a general discussion of this kind of problem?

I ask because I'm not sure that loss of sexual desire in the man a problem that has arisen very often here, although of course I may have simply not read threads that discussed it.


It seems fairly common for the woman to lose sexual desire - whether she's the betrayed or the betrayer, and however long ago the infidelity happened. Hardly seems surprising, given that female sexuality is so intricately bound up with security and feeling loved. But, unless men aren't reporting what's happening in the bedroom, the posts here don't suggest a widespread loss of male libido on discovery of infidelity. It does happen, certainly, but I have the impression that it's usually when there's an affair aggressively ongoing, or the OM is still dangerously in the picture. Have I got that wrong? Perhaps men would comment on their own experiences?

From this third-party viewpoint, it strikes me that the marriage you describe is one in which sex has always been part of a power game, and that the current situation is no more than a novel variant on an old theme. It looks to me as if they've long maintained some sort of power balance in the relationship using sex; him by making it clear that he fancies other women, her by withholding sexual interest in him for long periods. If that scenario is at all accurate, then it would suggest that right now, he's 'punishing' her by withholding sexual interest in her. In other words, the players have changed places but are still using the same equipment and techniques.

I doubt if either of them would be consciously aware of playing this game; it would reveal itself only in their emotional reactions and 'illogical' behaviours.

What I do know is that problems like this need outside help, from someone who knows what to look for and who can stop the players from retreating into the game under familiar stimuli. A good-quality 'outside help' does not need to be 75; I see the age objection as being an excuse deployed to maintain Player A in the game.

If a person has 'read all the books', and is still stuck, then if they REALLY, REALLY want to solve the problem, they will take whatever slender chance they can. I don't think your friend really, really wants to fix this. I suspect that fixing it would involve too much painful self-discovery, and would require him to give up familiar, comfortable, dysfunctional patterns of getting through life.

And frankly, the only person who has a hope of breaking him out of the dance is his wife - not you.

TA

Advice on this support forum is a bit like stew. Looks as if TA has thrown some meat in the pot.


I dunno if my reaction was (is) typical or not. I performed because I could and it seemed appropriate during the initial honeymoon stage of our recovery. It helped start the road to real intimacy.

But yes, something was lost and mostly refound, but not 100%, yet.

Larry

Hi, TA.

The post was for both specific and generic discussion.

I am sorry if I was not specific enough in the discussion. This man has NOT lost his libido, only his desire toward his wife. In other words, he feels that sex with her unless he feels a connection to her, is using her in a way that he is uncomfortable with.

I am sure that his previous sexual affair has something to do with that mind set, but that is the reasoning given to me.

As for the generic portion, on this forum and on other bulletin boards that I frequent, men that are able to perform sexually with their wives and choose not to (for many different reasons, not just infidelity) are not uncommon. It may not be discussed much here, but it is not uncommon.

As for the age objection, he tried to set up a call with Willard today (at my and his wife's insistence), and it seems that Dr. Harley is no longer doing consultations with his busy radio schedule.

Their previous sexual issues are of the more common variety. She wanted more emotional connection, he wanted more variety and greater frequency. The marriage started off guns blazing, then she started rejecting him, eventually to the point that he stopped trying. No games, just garden variety marital dysfunction. About as scripted as it gets.

Quote:"And frankly, the only person who has a hope of breaking him out of the dance is his wife - not you."

I am curious as to why you think his wife can solve this problem. Care to elaborate?

I told him what MEL had posted and he agrees that anger is the primary component of his "feeling", and that he wants nothing more than to get past all this. He seems pretty sick of the whole thing to me, but he is still stuck.

I will post more as I get more time with him.

Thanks,
Gimble

BrambleRose wrote:
=================================================
He thought he knew his wife of 30 years. He thought she was the good one and he was the bad one. (I'll be willing to bet he carries some guilt for his behavior in the past). I think it is a shock to find out that she's not the "good" one - she's a messy complicated human being like the rest of us
=================================================

You are correct, That knowledge combined with a book he had just read written by an author named Langley (female, I think Larry had mentioned her on a thread somewhere) is what caused his first reaction, which was basic humiliation at having been a "chump" (his words). So his pride is definitely damaged.

As for the guilt, he was a player, almost as bad as I was. I know what it took to come to terms with my past. I am sure he is still bothered by his, maybe a lot. When a player gets played (been there myself), it stings even worse.

His wife's disinterest in sex seems to be of the boiler plate variety.

Quote:"What if (just guessing because of course I don't know your friend or know the details)...he thought her lack of desire was because of his 'dirty' affairs....and he felt he deserved it, only to find out that she is no better?"

I think that he always hoped that their sexual relationship would get better. I think that his patience for such an occurrence, was extended far too long by his sense of guilt at his past.

Quote: "What if now, he is terrified that her lack of desire for him was because that other guy 30 years was just mindblowingly better, and her lack of desire was because he was pathetic in bed?"

Don't take this the wrong way, but with his past, unless he just became lazy, doubts about his performance wouldn't be an issue. I can ask, but I imagine I will just get a "you've got to be kidding".

I believe that he does love his wife very much, or he wouldn't be suffering with this. Thirty two years is a lot of history to throw away, and he knows it. I've been married thirty, and we have had our rocky times, especially the early years, but throwing it away isn't an option.

Slightly off topic, I have another couple I've been working with. They broke up early in their relationship. She slept around. They made up and were married. That was in 1992. Now he is having great difficulty with her actions during the break up. They have a couple of young kids. So I am trying to figure out a simple plan for them. They have been through a half dozen counselors, and he refuses to go any more. Similar story.

Thanks for your interest.

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble:


Dang it.

Langley turned out to be less knowledgeable than I expected, but she presents her material well. She does explain the female infatuation cycle very well, but doesn't appear to get the next step so far as I could see. I once asked her if she had ever read any of Harley's stuff or visited this forum and she said she would get to it. This was after her first book.

She does say she has no professional credentials to support her work. There are half a dozen people here I sent over from that site including one who is very active right now that I know of and certainly more if they want to surface.

To be fair, I did send her an email with my concerns and she never replied. My biggest concern is that she appears to not understand the concept of the fog. She was upset with me because she says I shamed women when in point of fact I didn't. I did get a few upset because I accurately pointed out consequences which they didn't want to hear.

Send me an email, please. I'll give you more stuff. I have said all I will say in a public forum.

Larry

Ok, well I had to go back and read the original post. How confusing..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

My take is an A is an A is an A.

He did it, she did it. Yet they are married and both are missing closure.

L.

>>If she was my friend, I'd tell her to kick him to the curb >and go find someone who doesn't have so many hangups.


>Tsk tsk. You haven't kicked your spouse to the curb and you don't want to be kicked to the curb for what you have done, right?

LOL, Larry. There's a big difference, though. With my husband and I the problems are related to our behaviors. People can choose to change their behaviors, although it may take learning new skills before they can.

With this guy, it's his attitude and character. He has some deep-seated, sexist double standard. He reminds me of those crazy guys who want to date virgins and get all upset if his girlfriend has a past sexual history, even if he had 50 ONS. Guys like that are just weird and damaged and can't change because it's part of who they are. What woman wants that sort of baggage? Why should she suffer through him being all upset over almost nothing (after all, they were NOT married at the time and not monogamous)? It's not her fault he's a crazy weirdo. Guys like that totally disgust me.

And I know you all sympathize with his pain but at some point you have to say, okay your extreme reaction to such a minor thing makes no rational sense. You should admit you're nuts and not make your spouse suffer for your insanity.

Ok Gimble I am having a hard time with this topic. First off his then girlfriend and he obviously were not committed to their relationship because they were both fooling around. Second she did not have an A because they were not M and he was doing the same thing.

I think when you are at the point they were in their R they wanted to know if he/she is the one. You want to make certain before you say I do and with him cheating then she really had a reason to doubt him being the one and that is maybe why she chose to be with someone else. If he reacts badly to anything she did that he doesn't agree with do you think that is going to make her want to talk to her in the future or hold her tounge? I know it would really make me fear telling him anything if I were in her shoes.

I think it's fair for me to say that she really didn't do anything wrong because they had not committed to one another. So why would he feel like she betrayed him in some way? I think he really needs to get some IC because he cleary has more issues than what he is letting on. That's just my .02

Maybe once she felt like he had committed then she did the same thing. He should let what she has done since they have been M'd determine if she is or is not who she thought she was all this time speak for her instead of what she did before she decided to say I Do. BTW she has done a lot better than he has by the way keeping those vows once they M'd. Not saying that she is without her faults but at least she is not an adulter. Your friend can't say that.

Hi, Aphrodite.

I am puzzled at your response.

So, let me see if I understand this. If you were living with a person (that would be a committed relationship) and they cheated on you, and at some time you cheated on them, then they wanted to marry you, and you knew of their infidelities, it would be okay for you not to tell them of yours?

I have know this guy a long time, and he is not a sexist weirdo.

Quote:"...okay your extreme reaction to such a minor thing makes no rational sense. You should admit you're nuts and not make your spouse suffer for your insanity."

No offense meant, but have you had an affair? An affair, whether there is a ring or not, is no minor thing, regardless of who goes first or how many times. An affair is damaging regardless of who the betrayed is. There are plenty of people on this forum that have been both infidels and betrayers, and it hurts regardless.

Gimble

Hi, DIG.

Thanks for your comments.

Quote: "Not saying that she is without her faults but at least she is not an adulter. Your friend can't say that"

I think you will find people here that have been cheated on in committed relationships that will disagree with your definition of adulterer. Maybe infidel is a better word in that situation. As for my friend being an adulterer, he is. He has also cleaned up his mess. That would make him a "former" wayward husband if we are striving for some sort of accuracy.

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble I respect your POV but do you really think they were in a committed relationship if he and she were screwing around. I would not call that committed. It's like they had an open R but he felt like he was the only that could get his rocks off while she sat at home and waited for his return.

By your definition it was not a committed R. Ask your friend how can he feel they had a committed R before M when he was himself seeing other people? The answer he gives should tell you plenty.

I am sorry for saying he was an adulter but it seems to me that even as a FWS that he was still not as committed to their R as he expected her to be. How is that fair to her or him for that matter?

Hi, DIG.

In their minds, it was a committed relationship. They had setup house and had everything but a ring. He was cheating within the relationship. The difference is the ring.

All the best,
Gimble

Todd.

I would really be interested in hearing more about your situation with your wife. I am especially interested in how you feel being "stuck" in how you relate to and feel about your wife.

As many details about what you have been through and your journey through your feelings as you recovered (to the point that you have) would be greatly appreciated.

MelodyLane.

If I could ask the same of you, would you mind detailing the process you went through?

Thanks much,
Gimble

Gimble"

Now that Orchid, the master at double talk, has weighed in on this, I am going to revisit:


What truths did he know before marriage? He knew that he was screwing whatever was available. He believed she wasn't. Did I get that right? This is clearly a double standard if that was his expectation.

Ok, now they get married. Unless told otherwise, they both were monogamous until he had an affair 15 years ago, that he now thinks he wouldn't have had if he had known she cheated on him before they got married. Perhaps because he would not have married her. In other words, he is reaching to place the responsibility for HIS affair on her.

The implications of that are obvious; he blames her or circumstance instead of himself. And as you say, he is the kinda guy who plowed many fields. I wonder if it ever occurred to him that those many fields wanted to be plowed until he read Langley;


Has he really cleaned up his mess? I really don't think so, especially if they entered into marriage where she KNEW he had been cheating. They were BOTH very immature at that point in time. By the social standards of 30 years ago, they both acted in ways that the social conditioning of that time and their immaturity can explain. It was considered normal for a guy to cat around as much as he could and many, many young women got even. This explains the availability of somewhere to cat around <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And the double standard was extremely normal.

Now leave us look at their marital sexual history. She wanted intimacy, he wanted sex. It was a typical impasse for marriages started 30 years ago, right? It didn't need to happen, but it did and even 20 years ago, help was hard to find.

Now you say that he read Langley's book which provides her version of recognizing female infatuation cycles and a bunch of other stuff. It written in conversational mode and the style is of a woman helping a man understand his wife. It is compelling and just enough off base to screw this guy's thinking all to heck.

Frankly, Langley"s book has nothing to do with your friend's situation and mental hair ball, in my opinion, except in that it explains that some women can crave sex just like a guy but from a different need state which she doesn't explain very well.

His current demons are NOT the ones covered by Langley's book and if he thinks so, it is because he is attempting to hide what his demons really are or he was just taken down the primrose path by Langley. This is just my opinion.

AP may have her own observations about Langley's book as it relates to this guy's issues. She has read it

There have been much speculation about this guy's issues that have caused him to desire his wife less without getting into her physical attributes, something that can make a difference. We must take at face value that he "only" cheated the one time. We must take at face value that he "wants" to have intimacy with his wife, or at least he says he wants sex with her, but has no desire because of what he discovered about her activity BEFORE they got married. Maybe intimacy is the wrong word here. I dunno.

This is, as I have said, a serious hair ball. I can only think of one first step based on a careful read of everything you have said about the guy:

Based on Langley's book, women are sexual beings. This is a true statement. Based on Langley's book, women's sexual excitement can come from an infatuation cycle that lasts about two to three years, maybe more. She does not discuss that same excitement from family attachment and ongoing intimacy built up by a true partnership with her guy except in passing and by reference to other books that someone may or may not read.

Langley makes the point that monogamy is not a natural state for women either. Since this is counter to our social conditioning, she goes on to call for a change in the way we look at relationships, marriage, raising children, etc. She has no solution for those of us who are either 1) socially conditioned already and not ready or able to change to a non-monogamy based relationship or 2) that some people are different from the way she sees us.

Where the lessons of Langley's observations can possibly be applied here (although I don't see that she says it directly) is that your friend's wife may have suppressed her sexuality to one that was strictly social conditioned (wanting intimacy as a base) while your friend stayed on the physical side of the equation. Langley makes no provision for the differences in people. One size fits all, so she may or may not have something that applies, but not through a direct read of Langley.

Other than that, I do not feel as if Langley has any lessons to be applied to this situation. If he is hung up on what he has read there, it is a blind canyon and he needs to search elsewhere.

I do not believe I have much else to contribute to this discussion except that for him to find true intimacy with his wife, he has to give up a bit of his power in the relationship, which he may or may not be willing to do.

Larry

PS edit. . . Since he has read Langley, you might want to do the same thing before you offer up advice based on what I have said here. You may have a different read.

Gimble I respect what they thought but in actuallity that is not were they were living. He may have thought she was committed but he was not. She knew before marriage he was not so maybe she thought that gave her a free pass. What is important is once they got M'd and she knew or thought he was indeed committed to their R heart and soul did she forsake her vows?

What they thought in mind didn't match what they had in their hearts or actions before marriage, however after she said I do she didn't stray. Just because you have a live in lover which is oh so obvious in the begining of their pre marriage relationship doesn't mean that they are exclusive. It is an obvious double standard. How can he hold her accountable for not being faithful when he was doing that exact same thing. How was it ok for him to play the field but not her? He chased quite a few skirts from what you said yet she only strayed once so if you ask me she should be the one with all the doubts and fear of another betrayal not the other way around.

If he keeps pushing her away because he realizes that she could be just as capable as playing games as he is then he is going to end up alone. Even with her not being true she was the more true of the two. So they are still not on an even playing field. No I think what your friend may truly be afraid of is that if she was willing to try and get even back then what is to keep her from wanting to get even now and that is why he is afraid to open up to her. I don't think he liked the fact that two could play that game. He likes it even less now that he has added another ring to his belt.

Yeah I think Ole Boy liked being the player and is afraid to become the played. He doesn't like the thought of reaping what he sowed.

Truth be told I think most WS ( F or otherwise) May fear that their S would do the same thing to them. He maybe afraid also that if she does retaliate that he may not measure up. The fact that he is distant he makes that chance more of a reality. He is very insecure which is why he probably played the field in the first place and the thought of those chickens coming home to roost scares him. He may in fact think becasue she took so long to tell him after the fact that she may have indeed could have already done just that. He just doesn't know and that would make him lose desire because the thought of his W breaking his heart the way he did hers is scaring him to death. To men making love means love and he is to scared to get close to her because of that fear.

In terms of my third-party proxy analysis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, I see this as being a power struggle between the two of them. Power struggles tend to make the protagonists tunnel-visioned. Everything that happens on the periphery is pretty much ignored unless it can be 'used' for leverage in the struggle.

If your friend won't alter his dance, the only way that change could be effected is for the other protagonist - the wife - to change her part in it.

In fact, it's possible that's exactly what's happened. These two have a history of withholding important information from each other. The revelation of her premarital fling may have been another step in the power dance, or it may have been her giving up the struggle and handing in her weapons. If that's what she did, then she's refusing to participate in the power struggle, and implicit in that is the challenge to your friend to accept new, honest terms and conditions for their relationship.

Your friend may be resisting the tacit invitation to have an open, honest marriage. He may feel unsafe doing that with her.


By your description, this is a man who has been quite comfortable having sex with women with whom he has little connection. In fact, his history suggests that low-intimacy sex has been a significant turn-on for him, where it may have been an inhibiting factor for many other men. That suggests to me that sex, for him, involves a high level of fantasy, for which a low level of 'reality' is optimal. So I wonder if the problem is really that he is now faced with a sexual relationship in which he can't avoid connection and intimacy, where the reality and complexity of the woman he's in bed with intrude on the necessary fantasy?

He may very well not be able to perform with her, because he has simply never practised the skills of relating intimately to a real, flawed human being....and his wife can no longer be cast in the necessary role in his inner fantasy.

It seems to me that the creation of an honest, solid marriage involves an awful lot of humility, kindness and - especially - the giving up of small positions of power that feel like 'safety'. If one or both won't make themselves vulnerable in this way, or won't make it safe for the other to open themselves up, the marriage may 'survive' but will limp along in an unsatisfactory way with two defended, unhappy people living parallel lives.

Giving up his safety may be where your friend is stuck.

TA

TA you know it's funny that you mentioned them starting over with a new and honest R. I was coming back to add almost that exact thing. I think since they both have problems with faithfullness I think they should come clean about any and everything and wipe the slate clean. They should recommitt to each other the right way and renew their vows and learn from their indescretions. They basically need to start over from scratch and do it right this time. Since now they have more tools to have a better relationship, neither of them have an excuse.

People have different responses to physical actions - some people's bones get broken more easily. So, what might cause a minor injury to one person, can shatter another person's bones. I think expressing such a cavalier attitude toward someone's pain simply because you wouldn't be impacted the same way is short-sighted and somewhat simple-minded.

I have a teenaged friend who broke her leg. It was a simple fracture. The vast majority of people get a cast and a few weeks later they're back to normal. A year later my friend's fracture was still unhealed. She's now gone through 2 operations and her leg is still not healed. She isn't choosing non-healing as an option and she is doing what she knows and/or has been told to do - but at the end of the day her leg is still unhealed.

People's emotions can be the same way. The Todds and Gimble friends of this world aren't simply choosing to be a$$es, they aren't mentally ill - they just find that they are NOT healing the same way most people do.

So far the cast hasn't work.
So far time hasn't worked.

Are there steps to "just get over it"?

Only a fogged out wayward mind would view an affair as "such a minor thing," aphrodite. Why not fix yourself before you try and fix others? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

For example, have you told your husband and other victims about all "your OMs?" Why not start there? You need to get your own crap together before you have anything to offer others. Your posts are clearly that of a foghorn who can't help herself, much less others.

And self serving. She is a fogged out wayward wife so she has a vested interest in dismissing the pain of affair victims. She does it all the time with her own filthy affairs. she is about as credible as the falling down drunk that comes to AA to lecture them about them drinking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hokay, there is a reason why the cast hasn't worked but nobody knows why. Knowledge is power. No power there.

There is a reason why Todd hasn't healed, but nobody knows why or at least hasn't told or admitted as the case may be.

There is a reason for Gimble's friend to have the feelings he has and there has been much speculation as to why.

There are reasons why people have affairs. There are reasons why people stay monogamous and others don't. Yet that the reason(s) isn't obvious with either of the above cases doesn't stop outcomes.

The outcome of Todd not moving off of the dime or Gimble's friend feeling as he does is that their spouses are left in Limbo and a lack of intimacy as are Todd and the guy. This may or may not be what any of them deserve or want. But that doesn't stop that outcome.

Life is all about choices. I do note that Tood and the guy's situation involve affairs that happened long ago, which means, as someone posted, that they have no power and must accept what is instead of being able to mold it as they would like for it to be????????? Maybe that is the reason, maybe not.

Larry

Finding out about an affair that happened 30 years ago is probably much harder than finding out an affair that just ended. I do know that those who find out about old affairs are just as devastated as those who find out about new affairs. And not because they are "mentally ill," but because they are normal.

There is an added element to finding out about old affairs. Not only is that BS a victim of the affair, but he is a victim of YEARS OF DECEIT. He has been married to someone he did not really know who lied to him every day via ommission. Married to a person who felt entitled to lie to him about his life.

All affairs involve lies, but older affairs involve YEARS of lying. The kalidescope dramatically shifts the historical context of the marriage when a BS finds out he was being deceived all those years. Things look very different when you know you didn't have all the facts. It is a shock to discover you were tricked into staying with someone you might have otherwise have left if you knew the truth.

So I can very much understand how the pain of an old affair is just as bad, if not worse, than a recent affair.

And I certainly don't dismiss someone's pain who just found out a SHORT YEAR AGO. It takes much more than a year to recover from an affair.

Mel:

In the guy's case, deceit was built upon deceit. In other words, he was as much or more deceitful than she was. Her infidelty was prior to marriage, his was both prior and after.

In Todd's case, it has been three years and three months by his own statement.

Why are we not as equally concerned with the guy's affair 15 years ago in how that is painful for his wife? Why are we not as concerned with how she must have felt if she knew about his affairs before they got married - or whenever she found out about them?

Forgiving if not forgetting is part of the healing process.

Should someone who caved in to their weakness 10 years ago continue to be punished by a spouse who cannot or will not move toward forgiveness? Should the guy's wife lose her opportunity for true intimacy now that they are both coming clean?

Hair balls all and object lessons in the concept that none of us truly know our own minds sometimes or our spouse's.

The sad part of all this is that neither the guy's wife or cruisegonebad is the same person they were years ago. Do we blame teenagers for all the stupid stuff they did before they grew up? Or do we love them anyway and smile?

Larry

I am not following you, Larry. We weren't presented with a problem on her part. Isn't he the one with the problem because he just discovered her affair? What is there to be concerned about with her? Wasnt' she told about his affair some years ago?


I don't think any person should be punished, but if the guy is too devastated to be intimate because he just found out about an affair, he is not "punishing her," that is just a natural consequence of an affair.

Ok Larry and Mel why is no one pointing to the fact that they were not married when she had her fling and the fact that he was doing the same thing? How can he be so hurt when neither of them were faithful. Neither of them have a leg to stand on. What he should judge her on is after the fact they did in fact M she never strayed. How can one partner have and open relationship with any willing participant when involved in a "committed" (and I mean this in the most sarcastic way) R and exspect their partner to only have eyes for them. Not only is that a double standard but he by his friend's addmission use to be a player. When you think you are a ladies man you never think you can be played and I think that is why he is so hung up not because he felt betrayed but because he got out played.

Disagree DIG, having an affair while engaged is just as painful. This did happen to me, and had I known he did this while we were engaged, I would not have married him. He tricked me into marrying him and married me under FALSE pretenses.

Adultery and deciet is wrong no matter who does it, but just because he was adulterous, does not mean she gets a pass on her adultery. Nor does it mean he is supposed to feel good about being tricked.

I agree that cheating no matter who does it is wrong. He didn't say they were engaged when this happened he said they lived together. That to me is different. It is different to me because they as far as we could tell hadn't promised anything to one another that's why the cheating came into play. It's like when I was dating I know I had more than one guy I was interested in from time to time. However we were only dating and to me they were just one step up from that. They were shacking. Shacking people are not always engaged and or not always faithful. We don't even know how long before or after they had gotten engaged this occured.

I think dating and being engaged is different. Engaging someone means you intend to marry them while dating you could either get to that point or realize that the person is not someone you want to spend your life with. Even if you are living with the person you are dating. ****** they have some people that move in together right after they start dating and I think that is just plain crazy because what do you really know about that person. I think maybe if I had more history on their sitch I might change me POV.

Mel, go back to the beginning and read the whole thing.

For example:




Lemme see if I can explain my point better.


I led up to my main point, which is:


Neither of the women in question could lay a claim to maturity at the point in time where they failed to protect their weaknesses. Both were on rocky ground dealing with issues with their relationships. Each choose the path they took.

Heck, the guy probably should have been kicked to the curb. Instead, the guy's wife choose to have a fling, something that is credible for 30 years ago (before Harley) and if memory serves, cruisegonebad was in process of bailing on Todd, which is how her old affair got put on the table.

Yes, they are both responsible for what they did.

Yes, they should have made better choices.

Yes, both guys feel powerless because of what happened long ago when their WIVES WERE DIFFERENT PEOPLE lacking in maturity and lacking in their responsibility to protect their weaknesses.

In Todd's case, it has been three years and his wife was leaving him when he found out. Why was she leaving? In the guy's case, it has been over a year and he asked a question that had nagged him for years.

I say again, people don't stay in Limbo for NO reason. I have seen at least TWO posts that reveal parts of the reason - at least in my opinion, plus many other possibilities that pertain to both situations. But what is the core probability? That one has to do with outcomes.

What outcome would many folks want? How about happily ever after? Except that outcome is impossible because neither guy can forgive. Why? Or is the real outcome the lack of forgiveness and neither will man up to admitting it but they make a lot of noise while sitting on the dime looking for sympathy. I believe that owning your own stuff is an equal opportunity mind set.

Frankly, what I see are a couple of guys - several more examples are in current threads - who are dodging issues of their own and trying to escape self examination by pointing at their wive's old stuff. Radical honesty means exactly that and I don't see it here.

Larry

Ok I agree with Larry on the last point he made that those guys are trying not to own their stuff while using their wive's indescertions to keep them from looking at themselves. They are avoiding their own short comings by trying to make their wive's the scapegoat. It's a lot easier to blame someone else for your happiness than it is to see the part you are playing in your own unhappiness.

Mel, you are putting yourself into this situation and there several dynamics which make it different from your own situation.

He was cheating his lying [censored] off. She KNEW what he was doing and had her own fling. He didn't know she knew, I guess; if he did, he gets a pass, EXCEPT, he had an affair 15 years go. If he didn't know, they BOTH entered in the marriage in deceitful circumstance.

No, he isn't supposed to feel good about being tricked. Nor is he supposed to feel good about doing the trickery. I have seen comment that he is a different person from her and thus deals with forgiveness differently. That is valid, even though not fair, whatever fair is.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Agree. So how do you find a right in all this messy situation? How do you find an outcome that is rational? Or is a rational outcome impossible? Or is Limbo the real outcome for whatever reason?

Larry

Larry, I do see your point, now. I missed the part where he had long hid his affairs so that does make a difference in my mind. They both defrauded EACH OTHER into getting married. thanks for s'plaining it so well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gimble: If you were living with a person (that would be a committed relationship) and they cheated on you, and at some time you cheated on them, then they wanted to marry you, and you knew of their infidelities, it would be okay for you not to tell them of yours?

MelodyLane: Only a fogged out wayward mind would view an affair as "such a minor thing," aphrodite.

What makes you think it was an affair or that they had a committed relationship? Shacking up is only a committed relationship if both parties verbally agree that it is. Obviously, they did not both agree. He continued seeing other women and did not even bother to hide it from her. I believe he probably also used the ambiguity of the situation to his advantage, as many unmarried men do. That's why single men hate it when a woman brings up conversations about trying to define exactly what sort of relationship they have. I do not believe the boundaries were as clearly defined as you think they were. In fact, I think the man deliberately made the boundaries fuzzy so as to confuse her so he'd have a ready excuse if she called him out on seeing other women but she would still feel guilty for seeing another man. I can't believe you guys don't recognize the game he was playing with her.

So, no, it is not clear to me that what she did was an affair or cheating, nor do I believe it was clear to her. And he needs to take responsibility for creating that ambiguity to begin with.

And I still think his "hurt" is just a ploy to deflect attention away from his own behavior, which is undeniably an adulterous affair with no ambiguity.

I also think he doesn't want to admit it, but his real problem is that his wife has a sexual past. That's why I think he's being a weirdo.

And I disagree with you all that a person has no control over how long they take to heal from something. Some things will take a long time to get over no matter what, but you can in fact make them take EVEN longer by holding to certain irrational thoughts. It's been proven that replacing your irrational thoughts with more rational ones DOES make you feel better and it doesn't matter whether the problem is adultery or a death of a close loved one. If you're taking longer to heal than other people would, irratinoal thoughts could be the culprit and they CAN be changed!

He should read the book Feeling Good: the New Mood Therapy by David Burns.

AP:


Maybe yes, maybe no. Neither of us were there, but it IS a possibility. Yet that game is nothing compared to the one he is playing now, IMHO, flushing 30 years down the toilet of life. There was no ambiguity at all AP, he expected her to keep the home fires burning while he went out and spread pollen, IMHO. That was the game 30 years ago. And when women did the same thing, IT WAS A DEEP, DARK SECRET in context of the times. Social conditioning during those days was for women to keep their sexuality secret and their affairs even more so.

He says he can't get it up for her but his equipment is in otherwise great shape. Oh yea, where's the beef? Prove it. I can't imagine how or why Gimble could be so certain on this point. Maybe I misunderstood.

Maybe he can get it up but he doesn't want to with her. Oh now THAT one is real obvious. What I don't get from Gimble is why we are expected to take this guy at face value and chalk it to his discovery of his wife's affair that is causing him all this mental stuff. Given this guy's history, I don't think I would believe anything he said about his personal life or why he does or doesn't do whatever.

Oddly enough, he now has, after 30 years, his wife exactly where he wants her. But now he doesn't want her, not in "That way." Yea, I get that one too. I bet other guys here do as well and will fill in that blank I am leaving.

Larry

QUOTE:

Oddly enough, he now has, after 30 years, his wife exactly where he wants her. But now he doesn't want her, not in "That way." Yea, I get that one too. I bet other guys here do as well and will fill in that blank I am leaving.


Ok Larry you got me. I am begging you to please fill in those blanks because right now I am feeling as dumb as a post. Do you think he is involoved in another A and because of that he can't get it up for her?

Please do tell.

I swear I will. Be patient, I want to see the spin other guys put on this. It digs deep into how guys think. Well, how SOME guys think. And I have this guy pegged as one of THOSE guys. Check back about ten central.

Larry

Ok will do. I always like to take a deeper look into how men think. It helps me understand the POV better.

My conclusion may or may not be accurate. For certain, it is plausible:


Hokay DIG, here it is. And since you want a mental picture, I will expand a bit.

The first thing is to look at male conventional wisdom made up of short, pithy statements with a message. The first one is; Show me a beautiful woman and I will show you a guy tired of doing her. Then we go to; Stand on a street corner and ask. You get both laid and slapped a lot. Oh, and here is a real winner; once plowed, the field is always open for business, if you want it, yawn.

Until a guy gets slapped up side the head with the nesting thing, he wants to plow as many fields as he can, spreading pollen around, so to speak. Well not every guy, but most. And no way do most guys want to marry a slut as bad as themselves. Why, because they know what they are doing is wrong. So why do they do it? Well, social conditioning, their mamas raised them with entitlement, instinct, who knows, it just is.

The point is right up there within numero uno; Show me a beautiful woman and someone is tired of doing her. For men, it is the bagging that counts. And it is more than that. Women get bored after commitment. Men get bored after bagging their prey. Women get the march down the aisle. Men get possession of the body. Ok, some guys will spice it up a bit. After the first bag, they push the envelope. They want the object of their lust to give it all up; er, this is a family forum so I won't detail the kinks and not so kinks.

Once women get the march down the aisle and the infatuation burns off, they get bored with the guy, right? Ok, once the guy has pushed the envelope, he too gets bored. Ah, but wait. In this case, the guy never did get what he was after, and some guys are like this. She never gave it all up. She never became his toy. Making a woman into a toy is the ultimate for some guys. They ain't happy until then. And when the ultimate is achieved, the guy gets bored.

There is no longer a challenge. He is of a certain age where he needs more than a fence post hole to get excited, he needs his primal instinct triggered. She gave it all up. She quit resisting. He should be happy, but instead he is bored. In my opinion, he's that kind of guy.

Larry

Larry.

You guys are making a great movie out of this guy. Unfortunately, it is mostly fiction.

When I started this thread, I wanted input on what makes a guy like my friend, or Todd, or some of the other examples of betrayed spouses here, get stuck in recovery.

This thread was not an effort on defining what an [censored] this guy is or isn't, or if he has ED or not. I simply wanted ideas as to why he is stuck and how to get him unstuck.

If the methodology to "unstick" someone was common knowledge, then we wouldn't see so many carbon copies running around here and every other infidelity forum I read.

So, let me reduce his condition to a semi-fictional one with a reduced set of facts. His wife fooled around on him in their pre-marital relationship 30+ years ago and he found out about it a year ago, but has been unable to get over it. What does he do?

I am only interested in potential fixes.

If his wife were the one stuck on his infidelities, then I would be here on her behalf, but she is not, and SHE considers him worth having whether or not anyone else does. He feels the same way about her.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble:

???????????????


So how you fix something when you don't know why it is broke? Besides which, it is the guy what has to fix himself, not you, you can only facilitate.

Sure there is a lot of fiction and speculation here. That is what you asked for. You are in control. You take what is delivered and use what is applicable to the extent that you can during discovery.

If you figure out what is wrong, you can help him fix it, maybe. If you haven't a clue why he is the way he is, then a fix is impossible, in my view. So ok, I'll bite, how do you fix something that is broke if you don't know why it is that way?

Larry

Hi, Larry.

Don't take me the wrong way.

When MEL said that she suffered intensely for 8/9 months and after a year it begin to diminish with time, but that she hasn't changed the way she felt about it, that helped.

I am looking for anecdotal or direct experience or ideas. The psychology behind it may help define "stuck", but I am looking for potential solutions for my good friend, and perhaps I am a bit desperate to offer him something that he can set an anchor into.

There is another couple I am trying to help with essentially the same problem. Different circumstances, no official infidelity, but the same kind of "stuck".

I have poured through all my psychology resources including CBT and some more esoteric mind games, and there is no official fix I can find for someone suffering from an "obsessive loop" (my term) that they can't break out of.

So, when normal channels fail, you start looking in other places.

I feel certain that there is a simple but effect method for breaking people out of these "loops", but it is either as yet unknown, or not common knowledge. I am stubborn and want to find it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote:
"So ok, I'll bite, how do you fix something that is broke if you don't know why it is that way? "

Well, if it is chemical, then the trigger doesn't have to be known to treat it. There are effective drugs for that.

If it is a combination of chemical and behavioral, and the cause is emotional trauma, then the exact set of circumstances is unimportant. In the later case, drugs don't work so well, but it seems likely that an "anti-emotional" trigger that diffuses the loop would be effective. That is what I am looking for.

MEL's loop died because her husband didn't continue to feed it and her brain chemistry eventually changed as time aged the underlying emotion. I think it is possible to shorten that process. I may be wrong, but that won't keep me from exploring the idea.

All the best,
Gimble

Ok Larry I think I get what you are saying but now I have another question. How do we get past being bored? What do you do to became the OP to keep those home fires burning?

Easier than you think, and sort of counter intuitive.

You start with His Needs, Her Needs by Harley. Read it along with "How to Stay Married Without Going Crazy, by Rebecca F. Ward. One read without the other is incomplete.

Along the way, you recognize that marriage is the beginning of reality and the courtship phase as the end of fantasy.

There are a ton of books out there. Every author puts his/her spin on things. The pair I recommend breaks things down to simply language anyone can understand, can be digested by husbands more easily and is usually enough for someone to discover their inner potential.

Rebecca Ward explains why, and Harley explains what.

Neither one explains the sex side of marriage very well, in my opinion. If that becomes a challenge for you or your husband, then you can go to here:

http://marriage.about.com/od/sex/Sex_in_Marriage.htm

For a starter. Then you go to:

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Starved-Marriage-Couples-Boosting-Libido/dp/0743227328

Which would be a good book for Gimble to read in his quest to help his buddy solve buddy's problem.

"Desire is a decision." During infatuation, the decision is easy. When the infatuation phase of courtship and marriage fades, desire yields to becoming a decision, just like love. You make an adult choice to love and desire.

The main thing is to conceive of marriage as entering into a family. Embrace the family. Protect the family. Take strong measures to protect yourself from outside influences except those which reinforce the family concept.

Finally, there isn't a good sex forum that I have been able to find that isn't overun by idiots and trolls. I wish there were. Each partner in a marriage has kinks. Those kinks may or may not match up. Books on the subject are typically written by women for women or by men for women because women buy books. Yet men have their own set of issues that needs dealing with.

Each party to a marriage enters with somewhat different expectations. Finding the common path takes effort, understanding and education. Start with Harley and go from there.

Hope this helps.

Larry

Gimble:

He is in an obsessive loop. I probably should have said that originally. The root cause of the obsession has gone through the speculation phase here. If you can find the root cause, you can recommend he seek treatment for it.

The only way I know of to break an obesssion without knowledge of the root cause is not always successful. It depends on the root cause and how closely that root cause is to his vision of himself as a person.

Take a strong rubber band and have him put it on his wrist. Every time he obsesses, have him reach down and snap the rubber band smartly against his wrist. Enough negative feedback and he might break it, with emphasis on MIGHT. Any other form of negative feedback could also do the trick.

Any other path is going to be up a blind canyon, imho. If you find something, please post it or send it via email, I would be interested and appreciative of the information.

Larry

If I were the wife in this situation, I would waltz my gorgeous self to the divorce lawyer without warning.

My message to him after that would be: You choose not to get over that so we can live a happy drama-free life together, so, try getting over losing me forever instead.

And I would wipe him completely out of my life. Pitch Black Darkness.

Can't have it both ways. See, I love my husband beyond life, but I refuse to subject myself to a life of dysfunction and drama.

Anyone who stays in a situation like this has a psycho-drama of their own that allows them some payoff for participating in it.

furthermore, a therapist doesn't have to be able to top the Harleys, doesn't even have to be that experienced, all they have to know is how to address behaviors, it's hard to break old nasty self-defeating habits, that's why we have therapists, to provide tools for doing so. SNAP.

I've been away with a family emergency and am just now catching up.

Larry - two things you said on this thread regarding my story bother me. Here they are:


and


I am very sensitive to the blame-shifting. Cruise was not "seduced" and "gave in to her weakness" - she CHOSE what she did. At first, I felt it was my fault for Cruise's actions. I also blamed the scumbag OM. When I realized that Cruise made dozens of concious decisions to have an A with full forethought, that hit me hard. Now I do not stand for any mention of "caved in to weakness" or "was seduced by an expert seducer." These are just another way of minimizing the CHOICE that Cruise made. It is one of the reasons I have in the past found your posts so frustrating. Here is the bottom line: Cruise vowed to forsake all others and conciously chose to break that vow.

As for the idea that I am "punishing" Cruise, I just don't know how to get through to people who believe this. Any negative emotion Cruise receives from me regarding this issue is the direct result of the A and the lie. This is not "punishment" (which implies directed action to inflict pain), it it a natural "consequence" (which arises naturally from the circumstance, without action needed).

Gimble - I will respond as soon as I can get my thoughts together to lay out the progression of my recovery or lack thereof.

Todd

Gimble in response to your last post we are just going off of the info you gave us and maybe our speculating can help give your friend a different prespective on his sitch so he can get past it.

Todd:

Ok, I got it.


Harley's teachings: Please go read them. You will be in a better place for it. You have selected the CHOICE button, but there is also the one that says affairs are because people FAIL to protect their WEAKNESSES.

Both statements are correct according to what Harley teaches.

Yes, people have a CHOICE. People also FAIL to protect their weaknesses which leads to the choice if they have help and opportunity. Both statements are accurate. You also have a CHOICE. You can forgive the weakness and rebond with your wife or CHOOSE to not so do. This is also what Harley teaches.

For the first time, I see your focus. Do you see mine? For various reasons, I am going to go away for a while. Please think about your choices, your own weaknesses and how people make mistakes and grow out of them. My suggestion is that you study Harley a bit more and I wish both you and cruise all the best.

Did cruise set about hurting you, was that her CHOICE, or was it all about her at that moment in time and moment in emotional maturiy she lacked THEN? Harley teaches us that affairs are NOT about the spouse. They are all about the ones who made a CHOICE to fail to protect their weaknesses, which we ALL have.

Again, I wish you well. I may be back in a week or two.

Larry

Hi, Mates.

Quote:
==============================================
If I were the wife in this situation, I would waltz my gorgeous self to the divorce lawyer without warning.

My message to him after that would be: You choose not to get over that so we can live a happy drama-free life together, so, try getting over losing me forever instead.

And I would wipe him completely out of my life. Pitch Black Darkness.
==============================================

That's an interesting piece of entitlement, especially considering that if you were her, you would be just as much an infidel as he, and a liar, just like him.

How would you justify your position? "Accept my lies and infidelity or I'm leaving." "We both cheated and since you did it more than me, either get over it or I am leaving." "My infidelity wasn't as bad as yours."

That certainly doesn't sound very appealing to me.

Just a rhetorical question. My goal is to find a fix, not crucify anyone.

Gimble

todd1967: Any negative emotion Cruise receives from me regarding this issue is the direct result of the A and the lie. This is not "punishment" (which implies directed action to inflict pain), it it a natural "consequence" (which arises naturally from the circumstance, without action needed).

That's a bit of a cop-out because you are refusing to take any responsibility for your own emotions and how you choose to express them. Although it is natural for us to feel certain emotions in response to certain actions by others, our perspective and thoughtful insights (or lack thereof) can greatly affect how soon and how well we can recover from that. So if you never recover from something, it's because you CHOOSE to never recover from it. That doesn't mean you can choose never to feel pain, of course, but putting your pain in perspective can make a big difference.

Furthermore, if you express your pain or negative emotions in a way that threatens your marriage, that's on you. That's because of how YOU CHOOSE to deal with your pain, not because of the A itself. Those "natural" consequences are not natural, they are man-made. You alone decide what those consequences will be.

So basically you just need to decide...do you want to stay married or don't you? If you do, then you need to choose to handle your recovery in a way that doesn't threaten your marriage. And again, Feeling Good: the New Mood Therapy by David Burns is good for helping people learn to put bad experiences into perspective.

Hi, todd.

If you wish to discuss this privately, one of my email addresses is in my profile. Feel free to contact me.

I would very much like to talk to your wife as well if she is willing.

God bless,
Gimble

Aphrodite.

Quote:
==============================================
Furthermore, if you express your pain or negative emotions in a way that threatens your marriage, that's on you. That's because of how YOU CHOOSE to deal with your pain, not because of the A itself. Those "natural" consequences are not natural, they are man-made. You alone decide what those consequences will be.
==============================================

If you want to see how well someone who is devastated deals with their pain, then come clean with your husband. Go do that and then tell me how good your advice above is.

Gimble

I fully expect that if I refused to choose to recover from my husband's affair than the only recourse that would be appropriate for him, would be to eliminate me from his life.

Quite the motivator for me to choose recovery, there eh?

I'm happy, I'm recovered, we are happy, our marriage is recovered, and in three days will be in paradise renewing our vows. I stand by every word I say. I mean exactly what I said. When the fws has the guts to choose to remain in a marriage which is now power-skewed toward the bs, that shows they have motivation and courage, because I guarantee it would be easier to find a clean slate out there. Gotta run so this may not be clear don't have time to clarify.

>If you want to see how well someone who is devastated deals with their pain, then come clean with your husband. Go do that and then tell me how good your advice above is.

>Gimble

1- If people who are grieving the loss of a loved one to DEATH can take this advice, then certainly those in pain over adultery can. If you really love your wife, you'd prefer being cheated on over your wife having a fatal embolism. Ask any widower.There have in fact been people whose bereavement turns into clinical depression and by using cognitive-behavioral therapy or REBT they turn clinical depression back into ordinary bereavement. So it CAN be done.

2- By your logic, any behavior that results from the pain of adultery is justified. Suppose he decides he's in such pain he needs to kill his wife? Or how about if killing his wife isn't enough and he walks into a random office building and kills a bunch of strangers? After all, he's hurt so he has no responsibility for how he deals with his pain, right?

And just to give you all some perspective on your pain...I know a family with five kids from Uganda who fled to Kenya because they were afraid the Lord's Resistance Army would kidnap the kids and force the boys to kill people and force the girls into sex slavery. That's what the LRA does (google it). On the way, the mother died of dysentary. So you see, some people DO have it much worse than you people do and they don't use their pain to skirt responsibility for their own actions.

The simple fact is, if he keeps doing things to threaten his marriage she'll eventually leave him. Even if she doesn't divorce him, she'll leave him emotionally. If that's what he wants, then by all means, have him keep doing what he's doing.

Aphrodite:

I think you altogether missed Gimble's point.

Let me ask another question based on this portion of your post directed to me:

1. WS has affair
2. Pain in BS follows on discovery of affair
3. BS pain threatens marriage
4. Marriage fails

Who is to blame for the failure of the marriage? From the quote, I read "BS is responsible because their poor choice in how they dealt with the pain destroyed the marriage."

I think this argument defeats itself. You argue that the way in which the BS expresses the pain is a man-made consequence. At the same time you describe this a "threatening" the marriage while contrasting that to the affair itself. The term you used was "that's on you." Therefore, you argue that the marriage is threatened as a result of the method of expressing pain, but also argue that it is not threatened by the affair itself.

Your argument is (as made clear by the "that's on you" comment):
CAUSE Affair <> EFFECT Threatened Marriage
CAUSE BS Pain = EFFECT Threatened Marriage

Why are these different in your eyes?

Todd

Only an ACTIVE AFFAIR is threatening to a marriage.
The BS is responsible in this scenario.

You can't have it both ways, Todd. If you can't recover, the marriage ends. As Aphrodite correctly pointed out, either factually, or emotionally. Staying in a marriage which is emotionally dead is as painful and damaging as the affair, ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotional abusive. It is sick.

That is just plain wrong. The A has created a threat to the M - it does not matter when the A took place. That threat lasts a lifetime. How many "fully-recovered" BS here feel the need to check the WS's e-mail once in a while? Why? Because they are exercising additional protection. Why do they need additional protection? Because of the threat to their M created by the A.


First, I will presume that the word you in the line "if you can't recover" refers to both spouses. Otherwise, you are simply arguing that the entire burden of recovery is on the BS (and this would sound suspiciously like "get over it already").

Agreed that the M must end if recovery does not happen. That is not really in debate, is it? Who then judges exactly when recovery is no longer possible? I submit it is the BS and WS, not a third-party observer.

Also, why do you blame the BS in your quote for emotional abuse? You have assumed that because recovery has not happened, a M must be emotionally dead. You further assumed that if it is emotionally dead, then the BS is punishing the WS and exacting revenge - you refer to this as emotional abuse. How exactly are these leaps in logic made? You may believe this to be true in my case, but it certainly is not a universal truth. Then I refer you again to my question: "Who then judges exactly when recovery is no longer possible?".

Here is your argument:
1. WS has A
2. BS discovers A
3. BS is devastated
4. Recovery timeline reaches "enough" time according to third party (you in this case)
5. BS is not yet recovered, yet stays married
6. BS non-recovery is emotional abuse of WS, a form of punishment, and is "sick"
7. That bass-turd BS

Why not this?:
1. WS has A
2. BS discovers A
3. BS is devastated
4. Recovery continues in stops and starts, taking longer than anyone hoped (certainly longer than the third-party observer believes is needed)
5. BS dismisses thoughts of D when they come in an effort to give every chance for recovery
6. Difficult recovery is painful for both BS and WS
7. What will the outcome be?

Todd

edited to add:
Mates -- I just realized you are the old 10Swords. Haven't we already had these arguments? I'm not sure either will convince the other given we still hold opposite positions. We'll see, I guess.

My timeline is subjective, Todd, and I would simply require demonstrable improvements that both spouses can see. I'm not dictating timelines, but when is enough enough?

I will say that I have much more respect for someone who has the sanity and backbone to dig out of their malaise after devastation, instead curling up into a halpless puddle. Pain may be subjective, I concede that fine, but at some point it looks and feels like milking the situation. I went through a horrendous infidelity situation and I even asked myself many times if I was "milking my pain for my own gain" -- it's a fair question.

To be completely honest, I prefer not to deal with you, I find your resistance and martyrdom excruciatingly exhausting. I posted on this thread for the benefit of gimble and others, because I recognize that with you it's a no-win situation. Life is too short to waste my energy on useless crusades. I applied this very principle to my own marriage and recovery. There is a time to bail, for both the bs and the fws, simply for self-preservation.

When one or both of the spouses directly involved decide it is, not before. And certainly not according to the timeline of an outside observer.

Agreed it is a fair question. In fact, I ask myself this question on a regular basis. The answer is always the same - no. If that answer changes, then I will know "enough" has been reached.

Feel free not to deal with me or any others whose point of view you find different from your own. Blocking me is easy. What you label as resistance and martyrdom I call holding firm to what I believe, even when it is not a popular view. I too posted this with an eye toward Gimble and others here in hopes that they can see where I am 3 years out and understand better that each situation has unique elements and each recovery does not follow a cookie-cutter mold. Perhaps then this information can be used to the benefit of the ones they are trying to help or to themselves.

Todd

I don;t post often any more....but this thread caught my eye....

Even the title ..."Getting over it" is painful for me....that phrase is a trigger for me...

I found out about my W's PA during our reconciliation FROM DIVORCE!! My D-day was POST divorce....and my experience is well documented on these boards. I will never "get over it".....I have learned how to deal with it though....

How one handles it and how they move forward is their own choice. This place helped me feel normal about my pain. It helped me establish my boundaries and retain them to this day.

This is a thought provoking topic. I find some humor in a WS finding out they were also a BS but it doesn't discount their pain.

Best of luck to all of you.....

Mates wrote: "...ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotional abusive. It is sick"

You are assuming.

Try again.

Gimble

Ok I'll re-word my thoughts for your edification, and I'll correct the misquote:


CHOOSING to stay in a marriage which is emotionally dead is as painful and damaging as the affair, ie the BS is now punishing the fws, in effect exacting revenge, and that is emotionally abusive. It is sick for both individuals to participate in such a relationship.


I'm not saying on the operating table or in intensive care, I'm talking the marriage is emotionally dead. That is not a marriage, that might be a business arrangement. It is sick.

Even a marriage of convenience is normally based on friendship, thereby not dead. The four prerequisites of CARE, PROTECTION, HONESTY, and TIME are operative in a mutually satisfying way.

Recovering marriages don't always have the prerequisites operating optimally, but the understanding is that is a goal they are working toward with measurable results.


Now, Gimble, I don't know what you think I'm assuming, but both Todd and Cruise have told me that Todd chooses not to meet Cruise's ENs. Meeting ENs is the "demonstration" part of the four necessities to building lasting love.

Todd's pain does not prevent him from doing this, he CHOOSES not to do this. In your friend's case, since he has no physical ailment that stops him from wanting his wife, he would be wise to get a counselor to help him figure out how to make better choices, he needs to work on cognitive and behavioral approaches to changing, if he's actually motivated to do that, but the real question is, WHAT'S HIS PAYOFF for not choosing to change?

applicable to everyone..

Mates.

I disagree with you that staying in a marriage that is otherwise not fulfilling (such as when a spouse is wayward) is not abuse, otherwise we could dismiss all the betrayed spouses on this site.

I also disagree that Todd is exacting revenge, or that my friend is. My friend is doing his level best to solve his quandary. I would imagine that Todd would love nothing more than to be "normal" again.

You are assigning motives to people that may or in this case, may NOT be accurate.

You are making a hard and fast rule from a situational construct that you just don't happen to like.

Quote:"Even a marriage of convenience is normally based on friendship, thereby not dead. The four prerequisites of CARE, PROTECTION, HONESTY, and TIME are operative in a mutually satisfying way."

So, you are claiming that Todd doesn't care for his wife, is not her friend, does not protect her and is not honest with her. How do you know these things?

Quote:"Now, Gimble, I don't know what you think I'm assuming, but both Todd and Cruise have told me that Todd chooses not to meet Cruise's ENs. Meeting ENs is the "demonstration" part of the four necessities to building lasting love."

Is Todd choosing, or is Todd unable because of how he feels? "Just get over it" is not a solution.

Quote:" In your friend's case, since he has no physical ailment that stops him from wanting his wife, he would be wise to get a counselor to help him figure out how to make better choices, he needs to work on cognitive and behavioral approaches to changing, if he's actually motivated to do that, but the real question is, WHAT'S HIS PAYOFF for not choosing to change?"

In my friends case, it turns out that his issue was with an unacknowledged lie. Figuring that out took time and both spouses working at it. What good would I have done him, or any one else by telling him that he is abusive and should just meet her needs and get over it. Any of that would have resulted in a man full of hate and resentment two years from now and a failed marriage.

One size doesn't fit all, Mates. People choose to stay in marriages for all kinds of reasons. If a person decides to stay in a marriage in the hopes that one day it will be different or better, that is not abuse, that is a choice (physical and verbal abuse excepted).

I strongly suspect that there is a singular key issue in Todd's situation. I would like to help them with that if he likes, but that would be off this forum.

Gimble

You know what, Gimble, I have never said anyone should "get over it". Those are YOUR words. see thread title: "Getting Over It".

I did not stand for anyone telling me to "get over it" during my own recovery, I have no motive to do that. I know for a fact that doesn't work.


So what's your motive, for twisting my meaning to make it appear as if that's what I said? I suggest you don't want to understand my message since it isn't what you want to hear. People have much more power than they sometimes believe.

If you have not done so, I strongly suggest you go back and read all of Todd's and Cruise's posts.

Wayward people allow resentment to fuel their entitlement so that they can get away with selfish behavior.

Just as Todd has demonstrated in his threads that he allows his resentment to fuel his entitlement to withhold affection from Cruise, for one example. It is very easy for a BS to become wayward, the reason for the many warnings to BSs to guard their own weaknesses. Wayward isn't necessarily having an affair. Wayward is purposively disregarding your spouse's needs. Is there sometimes an understandable lag while they process their emotions. Of course. Does that make it right? No. One of Todd's admitted faults is his lack of compassion, Ok, I can understand that.

But, correctly or not, I'm convinced that Todd's extended period of limbo is ruse to cover the fact that he gets a huge payoff for having Cruise in a powerless position in the marriage, and like it or not, THAT IS ABUSIVE.

Now, rather than argue with you, I suggest we could or should write to Dr. Harley and Dr. Phil with details on Todd and Cruise's situation. I listen to Dr. Harley regularly and I watch Dr. Phil most days, along with having a minor in Sociology myself, and continuing to pursue my own education. Like it or not, I will be in a position to make these types of judgement calls in my career. I've "listened to" hundreds of Todd's and Cruise's posts, which is far more than they'd get in a courtroom. It's enough to draw my conclusions.

Mates4Life
I'm just curious as to exactly why YOU have decided what Todd or anyone else's timeline for healing should exactly look like. On what legitimate authority do you speak from?

If you speak from your own authority, what on earth, makes you think that YOUR view of Todd's, or anyone else's timeline for healing is somehow the bottom line? Because you say so?!

You have labled Todd's M "dead and sick', but I believe that Todd and Cruise don't believe that to be true. So they continue to groupe and feel their around on how to be happy and loving again. But, in spite of the timeline, you have labled this as sick and exacting punishment. Have you considered for a moment, that this is YOUR view and not Todd's? Consider for a moment, that Todd and Cruise are a work in progress. Since the progress has not met YOUR standard, you consider it a failure. I totally disagree.

For that matter, so does DR. H. He states unequivocally, that he has seen many a BS linger for decades over the devastation that has occured. It's not a good thing but it can and does happen. The good Dr. does not label these folks; "sick and hopeless."

Everyone is unique and different, and it will take some folks longer to process and deal with the devastation. Does not make them sick. Just different than your norm.

For the recor, you have no right to point fingers at hurting people, just because your opinions or values are different.

BTW, Todd,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry - thanks.

All - I want to make sure this does not devolve into a discussion of my situation. This thread is for helping Gimble help his friend. Feel free to deabte anything about my sitaution that keeps the intent of this thread at the forefront. We can start a new thread for other discussions about my situation if needed. Thanks.

Todd

Hi, Todd.

I think that I have helped my friend. For now, I am in a "wait and see" mode before I make a report.

I remain extremely interested in talking to you about your situation should you be interested.

God bless,
Gimble

This is my last post on the subject, but I have to clear this up:

1. WS has affair
2. Pain in BS follows on discovery of affair
3. BS pain threatens marriage
4. Marriage fails

Todd, this is a mischaracterization of what I said. What I said was:

1. WS has affair
2. Pain in BS follows discovery of affair
3. BS chooses to handle his pain in a way that is especially painful or annoying to WS, thus threatening the marriage.
4. WS decides BS will never be able to move on, gives up on BS and divorces him or at least emotionally withdraws from him.

If you don't think #4 is a real possibility, you are fooling yourself. The fact is several BS on this board have been able to make their marriages work and you are failing. Maybe you want your marriage to fail, I don't know. But if that's true it seems kinda cruel to string her along as a form of revenge. Two wrongs don't make a right. But if you really do want your marriage to work maybe you should ask yourself why other betrayed men are able to move on and improve their marriages while you can't.

Aphrodite said:
===========================================
"1. WS has affair
2. Pain in BS follows discovery of affair
3. BS chooses to handle his pain in a way that is especially painful or annoying to WS, thus threatening the marriage.
4. WS decides BS will never be able to move on, gives up on BS and divorces him or at least emotionally withdraws from him.

If you don't think #4 is a real possibility, you are fooling yourself. The fact is several BS on this board have been able to make their marriages work and you are failing. Maybe you want your marriage to fail, I don't know. But if that's true it seems kinda cruel to string her along as a form of revenge. Two wrongs don't make a right. But if you really do want your marriage to work maybe you should ask yourself why other betrayed men are able to move on and improve their marriages while you can't.
=========================================

Let me ask you a question. What is keeping you from coming clean with your husband? Is it #2, #3, #4 or all three?

The betrayed spouse or the wayward spouse can leave the marriage at any point they choose. So why is it so important to you that the betrayed spouse be "nicer" to the wayward spouse? Are you worried that this scenario could happen to you should you decide to do the right thing?

My questions are not intended to provoke you. I am honestly interested in your answers.

Gimble

Gimble - Aph, when she first came here believed that a male BS could never forgive a WW. She has clearly now changed that view. Aph is on a journey. I suspect she will make it.