Marriage Builders
Posted By: ManFromZog Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 01:31 PM
The Marriage
During a brief marriage I began a passionate affair with my now WW. After about 6 months she revealed this to my XW. Feeling my new love was the real thing and I must not let it go I left my XW but felt guilty and still tender towards her - I returned and left twice more over the next 8 months before finally settling with my WW. During this time WW’s feelings for me lessened but she wanted a child, married or not, and I was there. We married and had another child, both terrific kids, a credit to her especially.
My WW was no longer demonstrative and sensual as she had been (it would be fair to say she seduced me that way, though I was willing because aspects of my XW’s behaviour made me think she couldn’t love me – I may have been wrong). Sex was rare and not much fun now but there was no welcome for my hugs or other signs of physical affection.
Soon after marrying I had a great business opportunity and, supported by WW, threw myself into it. The work was very stressful but creative and rewarding. I was successful, able to support WW without her working and ultimately to retire early – she made great use of her free time and still does. She wanted more help when the children were small but I did not have the stamina to make a good work-life balance. WW tried several times to “get through” to me but always chose a time when I was tired (i.e. in bed, ready for sleep) and I felt she was hitting me with my faults. I accepted these but always tried to get her to see hers, to take her share of the blame. The result was, nothing changed.
For the first 10 years of marriage I always offered a goodnight hug but was frozen out. WW says she saw it as an attempt to “use” her or grope her, but it wasn’t just a request for sex. Eventually I felt the tension created was too much and gave up – we had no sex and little physical contact after that.
WW complains (rightly) that I didn’t take the initiative to do things with or for her, she had to suggest activities, holidays, presents, etc. She insists that I needed to talk my way back into her affections but I found it hard to “chat” with her given the emotional distance between us. It is true that my background is intellectual and I can be a bit serious whilst she is light and vivacious (but not with me, though she doesn’t see this as a factor). It also affected me to some degree with mutual friends, especially in her company, but I think I was mildly depressed by what was happening. I may not be very outgoing but nowhere near as reserved as she perceives. These seem to be the LBs, or are they ENs? I’ve been a good provider, we see eye-to-eye on most things outside our emotional life, I supported her in the way we brought up our kids, I give her loads of freedom (too much?), I am not violent or angry but she says I seem to be on Planet Zog much of the time and has (rather unfairly) got friends to tell her they agree – but they are still friends with me and don’t avoid my company so I feel it’s an exaggeration. She is an attractive, sparkling even flirtatious lady with others so can be persuasive.
That’s the background – it seems best to state the problem we now have and the help I need in a separate posting.
[This thread copied from "Emotional Needs" forum on advice there - sorry to duplicate.]
The Affair and Aftermath
At the end of March WW told me she’d been having an affair. It had been going on for 6 years though they didn’t see each other all that often (the MOM lives 80 miles away). They have a shared hobby that sometimes took them away to events where they had an organisational role. When these required an overnight stay they would sleep together. However she believes it is principally an emotional affair. The MOM is chatty, wants to do things for her and fills an emotional gap in her life.
She says she doesn’t want to leave, she wants us to be housemates and carry on as before. Indeed she wouldn’t have told me had MOM’s wife not discovered the affair and threatened to tell me if they continued their hobby together. The next event was at her home club and she felt committed to support it – I persuaded OMW to let them go ahead (she was now threatening to tell our children) provided I attend too. I did this without a second thought because I wanted to support her, to be her champion. I have met the MOM also more recently to understand his situation directly (it confirms what WW told me). It seems he has wanted to leave his wife for many years, or at least to have more freedom if he stays (she is very clingy and demanding, like my XW was). He believes she is capable of suicide if he goes, therefore he hasn’t left and maybe never will. My WW thinks OMW may be a physical threat to her though MOM thinks this unlikely.
Meetings between them are now very difficult as the OMW seems to have a vice-like grip (she works full-time and he part-time so I’m not sure why it’s as hard as it seems). They are in frequent (almost daily) phone contact and they did meet last week to talk, with my knowledge – perhaps the first time they met alone since I was told. That seemed to give her a boost but it soon wore off, in fact she seems less happy than before.
For the first 6 weeks from discovery I was frequently discussing the situation, our history, etc. She felt browbeaten and I admit taking the lion’s share of “air time”. Since then I have said little – there’s not much more to say and it was counter-productive. Although initially there was some sympathy and engagement in the talking stage a joint counselling session and perhaps just going on too long seemed to end that. I told her how much I loved her, had always known I still loved her, and that my apparent coldness was the result of the rejection (and depression) I felt. Frankly I was afraid that anything I did was unlikely to match her needs. I told her how much I could change and wanted to change but she is sceptical and doesn’t really want me to change – classic withdrawal? I have attempted to be more cheerful and chatty, at least with friends (it can be hard with her at present). I am recording good things that happen to me every day and telling myself that I have a good life beyond my marriage. I am trying to fix things for us to do but she is so busy socially that too is hard, especially as I am cautious about swamping her with the new me.
So it’s not all hopeless. Sometimes she is cheerful with me and sometimes a bit sharp-tongued. She seems to feel entitled to do what she is doing in spite of wailing about not wanting to hurt “everybody”. I feel it’s emotional bullying. She’s got everything she wants: home, freedom, husband and lover (perhaps not enough of the latter) – for now! But she’s still not happy.
Zog
Me 59
Wife 58
Married 28 years
Son 28.5 years
Daughter 26 years
Children left home
Can you help me?
Reading other postings I guess you will say there are some signs that all is not yet lost. I am trying to be patient and to demonstrate that I’m a more sensitive, helpful, cheerful, affectionate husband than she’s known. It seems difficult to do much at the moment and any change may take a long time to seep in.
From the start I have been certain that I will not ultimately accept what she says she wants (“living together apart”) and I’m not certain that she really wants it. I think if the MOM were free she might still have an insurmountable problem breaking up her home (I know from past moves how hard she finds it). Often I feel I just want to get on with things, even to threaten her with all the unwelcome consequences of divorce. Certainly I don’t want this to drag on for years, I’d rather get it over with than face a split when I’m nearer 70 or live with this emotional stress forever. I keep thinking about when to implement Plan B or maybe a mini-Plan B – just leave a note and vanish for a few weeks.
I’d like to start a constructive dialogue – maybe ask her what NOW are the things I do (or don’t do) that annoy or disappoint her most. But in her current state there seems nothing I can do but be an absolute hero, resolutely cheerful, chatty, thoughtful, helpful without seeming false – and all while she resists having to rethink her opinion of me.
Please tell me what you think.
I note from Hopefuldad's thread (hi there, good luck!) that I should be disclosing my wife's affair now. I must have missed this part of Plan A when reading everything relevant I could find on the site. This was in fact an early reaction of mine because I wanted sympathy. But I felt it was unfair on my children to drag them into it unless they needed to be told. Also WW and I have discussed and agreed this, although I have drafted a note on what I would say to them if I had to, and agreed that too. To go ahead and disclose without warning, as recommended, seems wrong in these circumstances. Also I'm still not too happy about involving them in their parent's difficulties. I had thought of waiting until the Plan B stage if we get to that.
As to friends - I'm not sure why they would feel they should interfere. It's certainly a great opportunity for WW to convince them what a useless H I've been (note the "he's on Planet Zog" comment above, where she's had the reinforcement she wanted, she says).
OMW has disclosed but it hasn't helped in 12 months (she's known a lot longer than me) except that MOM's daughter, previously rather a daddy's girl, is now distant from him but his son is OK (counter to expectations apparently). Forcing disclosure to me may have helped her open a second front I guess. Perhaps I can find a way to introduce OMW to this site since I don't expect she's addressing her LBs.
How certain are members that disclosure helps?
Can I have your XW's email address? I want to be sure she knows about the A. She deserves to know what an idiot you really are.
Quote
She seems to feel entitled to do what she is doing in spite of wailing about not wanting to hurt “everybody”.

You bought her baloney when you married her. You still buy her baloney. It is all about "her," and likely always will be. I haven't a clue how to help you because you enable who and what she is.

Larry
OK Piojitos. You're right; I was young, immature and stupid and it looks like I haven't changed a lot. And I was an idiot too when I gave my XW my house (I paid for it from my money, saved before the marriage) in compensation, which helped her greatly when she immediately set up with another woman's husband - and they had kids! I choose well I know but I'm rather fond of this one in spite of everything.
Larry, yes it's a lot about her and "her terms" and I haven't helped things. So how do I stop enabling her - by disclosure? Is that your answer?
You guys are tough, hope your marriages are sorted.
Quote
I note from Hopefuldad's thread (hi there, good luck!) that I should be disclosing my wife's affair now.

Yes, disclosure does help. It brings the A out in the open, where it usually ends (busts the fantasy bubble).

In your case though, the A has gone on for 6 years, and disclosure may not be enough to end it. I suggest that you seriously question yourself as to whether or not you want to spend the rest of your life with a WW that cheated on you for 6 years. That's a lot of years stolen from your life by someone who evidently believes she's entitled to do so.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 03:01 PM
you married your affair partner, right? And now you are concerned that she is a cheat??? Duh?
You abused your ex w with the way you treated her...
does it feel like you are getting what you have coming to you???
You and your wife.... and I hate to call her that in a way... are very immature for your advanced years. She has a lover.... no, he's a **** for her to use when she needs it...a lover is a good term... what they have and in many ways what you have... is nothing more than a sick, perverted lifestyle.
Exposure is a great tool. But to what end? To save this "marriage???" I find it difficult to offer any advice this will continue this charade.
Quote
The next event was at her home club and she felt committed to support it – I persuaded OMW to let them go ahead (she was now threatening to tell our children) provided I attend too. I did this without a second thought because I wanted to support her, to be her champion. I have met the MOM also more recently to understand his situation directly (it confirms what WW told me).

Why not let the married other man move into your bed and you move into the guest room? If the goal is to support the affair, that should earn you some brownie points. Do your clothes fit the OM?
p.s. Do you think her love for the OM might be "the real thing?"
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 03:06 PM
perhaps he can fill in and handle his wifes duties if she is unavailable to service her friend. This story is ridiculous!
Guys, this might be an AM, but it's still a 28-year M. I think what ManFromZog needs at the moment is helpful advice, not sarcastic remarks to remind him of poor decisions he made 28 years ago.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 03:27 PM
okay... if I read this right...

you rode the fence between your ex w and your affair partner for a long time. You cheated and went back to your wife three times.... leaving each time to be with your A partner. Eventually you settled for true love with your affiar partner... leaving your wife for good.
The affair partner cooled on you... but she wanted a baby so you ************ You then eventually married her... she wanted another bay...you obliged...even though your relationship was rocky at best.

Now your wife is *********another man and YOU help her do so by not lifting a finger to help stop this. All the while you are concerned that exposure is not fair to your wife???

You asked for opinions on what people think.

Mark me down for *************your wife being a ****.... and for your kids getting last place in the parent sweepstakes.

Harsh....yep....true...yep.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 04:05 PM
manfrom...

you stand at a great crossroad in your life....

you stand to make the choice for the first time in your adult life...

DOES MARRAIGE HOLD GREAT SACRADE MEANING ON THIS EARTH....

That is the question you must answer first....

and then move from here...

if your answer is no ...then this site...

marriageBUILDERS can not help you...sadly...

for what is at the core is that marriage has meaning....

doesn't mean all marriages are should and will be salvaged....

not at all...

but what the outcome can be is a person who holds great faith in certain truths....

that is if you believe these truths in the first place...

you have not ever yet taken your vows seriously...to hold sacred meaning.....

and the time has come to decide...

you decide...

then you move from there.....

can this marriage be saved...

well lets hope for even better...
lets hope for TWO people for the first time...living their vows to one another...

to love
to honor
and
to cherish.....

marriage is work....but the ground rules are basic and simple....

what say you my very very very up to now lost friend....

ARK^^
I am sorry but hey the KARMA BUS just landed at your house.
No offense is intended, but I feel I've stumbled into a twilight zone AA meeting, where when the newbie stands up, he's greeted by an angry chorus of "you're an alcoholic!", instead of "welcome".

Shoot, we all have hangups, or we wouldn't have had the misfortune of needing MBing. But isn't the important thing to discover that about ourselves, and to try to fix that? He can't go back and fix his previous M. But he wants to know if he can salvage this one. (Should he want to after a 6 year A? That's still his decision to try, isn't it?)

Yes, expose, but don't do so vengefully. You may want to post your "exposure" to-do's and the planned "convo" for advice on how to come across as someone who wants to reconcile the M. Especially if you have history of not being there for her. You're going to have to work hard to plead your case and not look like a fanatic, but the result could be worth it. You may win allies without alienating her peers. Who do you tell? People who influence her decisions. People who will be emotionally affected by her choice. Her friends. Her parents. Her pastor. Her hobby enthusiasts. The other man's wife (how much does she know?). Your kids? I don't know their ages or their level of comprehension. I certainly would have reservations. I think better people than I can advise you on that level of exposure.

But stop being a pushover. You married her. She married you. It was a mutual choice to forgo all others until death do you part. Stop worrying about how hard M is when you are in a state of confliction (which seems to be a pattern, considering your history). Do you think everyone who stays together has it "easier"? No. It can be grueling, miserable, painful work. But the reward is a true partner who knows you intimately (and I mean more than just SF, although that's important!) and a companion for life. A stable home for your children. A financial future that you WILL NOT be capable of if you D. At least, that's what I hear are the benefits of a long-lasting M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Why in the world would you be so agreeable to her A? Your passive nature concerns me that you are also thinking of the benefits of being single again. Why put yourself through this, again. This is a pattern. YOU need to break out of this pattern. If you want to fall for your WW again, it is possible. It is entirely possible to recapture that feeling. Don't give up. Stand up for yourself and your M. Own your mistakes, and start meeting your WW's needs. Own your boundaries and stop letting it be so easy for her to play to your fears. If you continue the current path, odds are good you WILL lose her. You're just easing the transition.

Plan A. And Plan B. Maybe you need a short plan A due to the longevity of the A, followed by a swift and complete plan B. Let her know how good it could be, that you ARE changing and CAN meet her needs, and go dark.

There's much you can try, if your really want this. But do you? How committed are you? Are you ready for individual counseling? B/C it sounds like you may benefit from it. And essentially, a better person is a better partner. Either in this M or the next. Please consider your options carefully.
Well, what a lot of tough ****** there are here. Self-righteous ones too. Yes, I've made a lot of mistakes and trashed a previous marriage before it had really started (no way that would have happened if I'd had kids). But I do love my wife. I am not a doormat like some of you seem to think. I've spent 6 weeks railing and 2 trying to be calm and get my side of the relationship in order. I could go wild and trash what's left of my marriage but that's not what I want and, in spite of everything, not what I think I deserve. I have been in many ways a good husband and father.
I am not condoning WW's affair and will not stand by for ever. My instinct is to act decisively now but reflection and the general theme here suggests I might at least try establishing a few credits first. I'm trying to think how long I can give it. In the meantime the affair is emotional, not physical, and there are some signs it might be broken.
If you want to be abusive I can't stop you. If you want to help please do, even if your message is tough.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 05:48 PM
I can't take this...

manfrom this is my last try...I said nothing to you that was self rightous or judgemental..

I am sincerely asking you if you have decided to fight for your marriage....

that's my questions that's what it was the first time...

cause I'm not going to waste time if you aren't....

it's time to man-up to your wife with serious serious boundaries...

about marriage
about the children
about the other man...

but if you are even for a second continue to condone contact between her and him...then I can't help you....

I am very very serious about neither of you ever really living a life of taking vows seriously....

that's not a judgement that's a fact...and one that will be used as a weapon against you...which is why you have to FIRST decide to fight the good fight...

no matter how many times your past gets thrown from you..

you need to establish a mantra of that was then this is the new me...

take me...
or leave me...

do you understand what I am saying...

ARK
Posted By: weaver Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 05:58 PM
Two times on this board I have gottn caught up in posters stories where they have left a previous wife for their affair partner and then got dished the same. Both times the men because of guilt put up with too much for too long. One to the point of suicide, I think.

What Ark says is very true for married affair partners.

Quote
I am very very serious about neither of you ever really living a life of taking vows seriously....

that's not a judgement that's a fact...and one that will be used as a weapon against you...which is why you have to FIRST decide to fight the good fight...

no matter how many times your past gets thrown from you..

you need to establish a mantra of that was then this is the new me...

take me...
or leave me...

do you understand what I am saying...


What I would like to add and or reiterate is that because you have lived a life without integrity, it is hard to identify what is with or without integrity, especially to what you will allow to be done to you and to your marriage.

Listen very closely to Ark.

She is spot on in my opinion.
Thanks Chobbs - posted my last before your message appeared. I have tried counselling, solo and joint and with 2 counsellors but I'm not sure it's been very helpful. Relate is the main organisation for this in UK (formerly Marriage Guidance Council) and I'm not sure we have the same level of choice as you seem to have in the US. Relate don't seem committed to preserving marriages and simply reflect back what you tell them, like the average business consultant.
On reflection it seems I should have let it hit the fan rather than enable the "home club" event to continue. A short Plan A is what I was thinking.
I understand your second post better ArK. Yes I want to save my marriage, but not at any cost. Yes I'm frightened but only of not doing the right thing to save my marriage if it can be saved. Confronting my wife is not the problem it's just a question of whether I need to show her that I will not continue the same way if she will commit to me too.
Posted By: weaver Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 06:11 PM
Quote
I’d like to start a constructive dialogue – maybe ask her what NOW are the things I do (or don’t do) that annoy or disappoint her most. But in her current state there seems nothing I can do but be an absolute hero, resolutely cheerful, chatty, thoughtful, helpful without seeming false – and all while she resists having to rethink her opinion of me.
Please tell me what you think.


First of all understand that her moods have very, very little to do with you, if anything at all.

Second understand that affairees rewrite history, they justify, blame, rationalize what they are doing. Everything she/he says about the OM's wife is probably a bunch of hogwash.

Get her (om's wife) to read about Plan A, so she doesn't sabotage your plans with hysterics and love busters. You guys will want the affair partners love busting each other. You do not want them united against you and his wife. You want thenm to start to go at each other.

Get the wife's help. Work together at exposure if possible.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 06:22 PM
no one should ever want to save their marriage at any cost....

too dear...to precious a price...

manfrom...

you must tell your wife that you are NOT willing to live in a triangle...
that you will not and do not envision a marriage with third parties....
that you deserve better
she deserves better

and that you will not actively participate and or condone activities that assist her in seeing the OM...

financially
emotionally..

that's a boundary..
YOUR boundary....

also you must make it clear that you will actively participate nor allow the children access to him...

and that you strongly find it disagreeable for to have any access to his children...

they deserve better
they demand and require a safe adult in their lives....

children suffer and are exposed to more than enough garbage in the world naturally...and there for it is the grownup's job who brought them here to do allll they can to never ever undermine and bring on devastation to roost all because we adults want our selfish whims placated....

I am advising you to prepare to seek FULL custody ....
that this should be part of your plan A....

your children are at the point of being taught that dads are replacable...

that if and when they do not please our moms....moms can just go out and get a new one....

their dreams will become nightmares believing that if dads are so easily replaced by grownups who have alll the power in the world...so can they....

I know you are frightened but you must fight and face the fear of your past being thrown at you...

you must change your language....

have you ever apologized to your first wife.....

you may want to think about that one...

also you must start to grasp this very very difficult concept....

you do plan A ..
you fight for your marriage for a period of time...

without any form of committment from her....

you do it for the marriage...
for the down the road payoff....

you do NOT expect her to agree to work on anything...that's what recovery is for...

you are not in recovery..
you are in the throes of a spouse who is babbling and rewriting history to soothe her junky mind....

EXPECT NOTHING.......

ARK
Good plan Weaver. I had though of writing to suggest she gets onto this site.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 06:35 PM
MFZ,

Somehow your sitch struck a chord with me. I am sorry about your situation, but I am harken by the fact that you seem to recognize your past mistakes, seem willing to learn, and, most importantly, seem ready to do what it takes to protect yourself, be a better person, and possibly save your M. I infer this last point from your statement that you are not willing to save your M at all cost. I think that is a great mindset to have.

Before I get involved, however, I want to confirm that you are willing to MAN UP in dealing with your sitch. I respectfully disagree, by the way, with the choice of your moniker, implying that you are a now a MAN. Given how you WW has walked all over you and your willingness to appease her so far, I would say that you are far from that…as of now. But that’s ok. The question for me is, are you ready to do what it takes to reclaim your self respect and live with dignity, whether or not your M is saved.

Let me know your thoughts,

God Bless.
Now it's getting more helpful, thanks. Ark, my kids are adults and have left home - custody is not an issue of course. If it helps to tell them I will, if it simply burdens them I won't. They are both terrific, well-adjusted people and that didn't come from a marriage that was quite as bad as it seems. Sure we were emotionally apart but everything else was pretty good.
One thing I learnt from my divorce was NEVER to have an affair again and I won't consider it while still in this marriage. Pity WW didn't learn the same thing. XW and I agreed to have no contact whatever 30 years ago (a sort of Plan B+) so it would be unfair to do anything now. I set her up very well materially and I think she's had a good life with her second husband (though he was someone else's husband and father remember).
No way I will live in a 3-way/open marriage. It's the Plan A thing I'm trying to manage effectively now and I've only just found out about it. I will fight for my marriage for a while, I just don't know how long yet. How do you tell? Not too short to be pointless or too long to be indulgent. Perhaps weeks rather than months.
OK UVA. Sure I'm man enough to quit this marriage if I have to. I don't agree that I have simply let her walk all over me. I was wrong to dig her out of a hole with her club but I wasn't thinking that exposure might help (to people who don't know me but know and LIKE him - he's a charmer). Experience is a great teacher which is why I'm here - so I don't have to experience everything personally if I can learn from others.
Zog,

I sent you to this part of the site because the information you need is here. I also warned you that you were likely to face some harsh criticism about the beginnings of your marriage as well as a lack of sympathy for the situation you are now in.

All of that aside, I think if you stick this out, there is alot of help and experience on this forum that you desperately need to create a better future.

Yes, they are a tough crowd....but to some degree they've had to be or they wouldn't be effective. Some are more helpful than others....most want to help. Please sift through the ashes and pull out the jewels of wisdom.

Welcome to GQII...it's a tough forum, but it's the place you'll get the most help....even if some of the comments are painful.

Like I said....hang tight.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 07:37 PM
STAR!!!

I am not tough....!!!!!

you're the one that's all prickly....

not me.....

I am glad the kids are grown...and are not in the middle of a parent that wants to hang with someone else.....

most of that stuff has to do with young kids in the home..so that is a small blessing

read here about plan A...

you most certainly can do it for a few months...

why the heck not....

plan A
Post deleted by princessmeggy
Quote
Sure we were emotionally apart but everything else was pretty good.
This is sad. Can you imagine how painful it can be for a W in a M to be emotionally detached from the person you share your life with? That's not good. Far from it. I can't speak for your WW, but when I'm emotionally isolated, I feel utterly neglected. Lost. Vulnerable. Bear in mind, I'm not justifying what your WW is doing, but how you plan to remedy this...? You can only change you, but if your changes are temporary because you haven't internalized the reasons for change, it will be hard to stay on track...

Why didn't couseling work out? Sometimes, it is the messenger; and sometimes, we aren't ready to hear what we need to do to fix the problem. Do you understand? And have you tried individual couseling? Or just marriage counseling. (May I add, even though the outcome hasn't been productive yet, it is admirable that you have tried this route.)

What are the LB's you are contributing to your M's demise? Because they need to go first and foremost or any attempts to meet your WW's needs will be futile. What needs of your WW do you think you can start meeting?

When you say weeks vs months, are you talking about Plan A or D? You have some long-term work on yourself and your M ahead. Even if the M doesn't work out (not that I have that expectation, but it is important to see the benefits of self-improvement - again, internalizing the reason for change), you can improve the odds of your next R. I hope you have no illusions as to the time committment involved.
Posted By: weaver Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 07:50 PM
I say because this is a long term affair and because it seems the waywards are operating under a great sense of entitlement, do a short but very good plan A, complete with big exposure (charming, hey? all the further he has to fall from exposure and all the more pressure to do right by his wife for the sake of his place in the community).

Make sure his wife is on board. If you guys can work together to break up the affair it will be that much better. She needs to do an even better Plan A, one that will knock his socks off. Classic fence sitter...wife is suicidal my [censored], he is probably more concerned with dollars and his place in the community at this point, but she can change that with a stellar Plan A. She can be every bit as attractive as your WW and attract him back. That is the ticket during Plan A...cause confusion in the mind of the wayward and show him what it could be like.

I say a short, but effective Plan A.
Quote
STAR!!!

I am not tough....!!!!!

you're the one that's all prickly....

hehehehe....what kinda braille you talking? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
MFZ, like most others here at MB, I'm not at all happy with the way you and your wife got together in the first place. You deserve, IMHO, every criticism leveled at you above for wrecking one marriage in order to enter another. That said, all of that is 28 years in the past and however you found each other, you two have had a committed relationship for nearly three decades.

Mr. Wondering and I threw together a thread some time back about organizing a marital recovery. I've linked to it in my signature area below. I think it would make good reading for you and would perhaps give you somewhere to start. You also need to read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. While you wait for it to arrive, you can begin reading about Dr. Harley's program here on MB.

MFZ, I don’t know if you can salvage your marriage. There are (effectively) no children at home and Dr. Harley tells us those marriages are difficult to recover. Additionally, long-term affairs are very difficult to break up. However, if it’s possible, Dr. Harley’s principles give you the best chance of success...if his program can successfully be translated across cultural lines.

It will be a tremendous amount of work, MFZ. When you’ve read up on the program, let us know what you’re ready to do.

Good luck.
Posted By: hanora Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 09:26 PM
I did a lot of stupid things 30 years ago and a few more recently so from my glass house I won't throw any stones. I've already lost a long reply to you so I'm going to do some short ones.

Read all the stuff at this site, it is deceptively simple but it works.

Stop keeping the other man's wife from causing trouble, let her cause all the grief that she wants to. Stop abetting your wife.
Posted By: hanora Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 09:33 PM
2nd installment (if I try a long post, it doesn't work)

Go to see a lawyer, make sure that none of your funds/investments can be transfered or removed without your signature. Cancel any joint credit cards (this is symbolic as you will likely still be liable for your wife's debts).

Maybe you weren't a saint, but many marriages go through a period of emotional distance. Maybe it's a good thing that your wife gave you this wake up call, but it's now time for her to wake up.
Posted By: hanora Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/21/07 09:43 PM
3rd installment

There is always a bottom line. Maybe they have thought of this as some grand passion, but it sounds like a ****buddy arrangement that they have. If it was really so great they would have done something 5 years ago. This just strokes the egos. If they really had to act on it, they would likely both be terrified. A once in a while lover is easy to glorify, a kicked out spouse is decidedly less glamourous.

She may not realize it but your wife is in a precarious position. Fortunately for her you still love her, you need to demonstrate to her the value of that love.

Good luck
I wasn't being prickly with you Ark but with some of the others who were just angry and unhelpful (people telling me not to bother, I wasn't a man anyway, I deserved what I got, stuff like that). I didn't really follow your 1st post but the others are really useful - thanks for taking the time.
Effectively I started a sort of Plan A 9 days ago but only found MB 2 days ago. Before that was doing all the talking, analysing, crying and generally grinding her down, convincing her she didn't belong with me I expect. Now I'm thinking about me, how to be cheerful, make a happier home and friendships, taking chances on things she might just like, and generally lightening up. It's working for me, I've only had one really low moment in that time instead of most days for the previous 6 weeks.
My Plan A needs refinement but I'm getting in the swing of it. The disclosure bit in particular is new because I've just learned about it here. I haven't come to terms yet with how it might help in my circumstances. OMW has told everyone in her community and family but that's in a far-away town, there's nothing I can add. I don't think our friends will apply pressure on her, ditto her hobby friends (in this part of England our culture may be different from US - or I may be wrong). Perhaps I'll try the very closest ones - she has disclosed to a couple of our friends already (the female halves). I think it just gives her their sympathy - perhaps I should tell them my point of view. At our age we have no close family except our adult children and it may be time to tell them. I'm definitely not frightened to do so , I just don't want to use them unless they can actually help - by the way MOM's children haven't helped their parents in the year they've known.
As far as I know so far my LBs are that I wasn't chatty and light-hearted enough for her taste and didn't buy/do/suggest things for her, I just seemed to be somewhere else (on Zog). I need to see if there's anything else but I'm trying to address those, hard though it is under these conditions.
Weaver, I'll try to get OMW onto her own Plan A. Hope she'll try it.
Longhorn, there's so much to read here. Thanks for your links, which I've read. It's all good stuff.
Hanora, thanks. I didn't want to involve lawyers but think you are right. Somewhere (I think in one of Ark's links) it advises that Plan B should involve Her moving out. That would be fair and most effective but I can't see that I could force her to do that. And you're right about finances I was thinking about that too. It's tricky because she owns half of our business (and half of my pension under English law).
Honora, your post 3 is exactly right, I'm sure*. My plan was to force her to choose as soon as I'd had a chance to show her I was sincere about changing our relationship. I just wish I could do that in a weekend or two. [* "I'm sure" is a wonderful phrase in English isn't it? It also implies the opposite].
Quote
Guys, this might be an AM, but it's still a 28-year M. I think what ManFromZog needs at the moment is helpful advice, not sarcastic remarks to remind him of poor decisions he made 28 years ago.

I'm confused - which affair are we talking about and which one are we busting up???
MFZ,

Dude, you can't force her to do anything! Plan A has nothing to do with demanding a commitment from the WS. It has everything to do with changing what you have control over and that is YOU!

Meet her ENs. Show her what being married to you can be like. Do the same things that got her to fall in love with you the first time. Do it without any expectation of receiving anything in return.

At the same time do nothing that will enable the A. Don't pay for it. Don't make it easy for her to continue it. Don't avoid making it hard on her and OM to get together.

Avoid any attempt to get a promise from her to work on the marriage from her until the A has ended! The time to fix things is in recovery and unfortunately, that is quite a way off as of yet.

Mark
Thanks Mark. Perhaps “force her to choose” shows I haven’t quite got it after all!
I’m happy with the strategy of MB but the tactics for my situation are still tricky to decide. I told WW repeatedly that I won’t accept 3 people in our marriage (to quote Princess Di). But part of my Plan A has been not to keep harping on about all this, so I haven’t said it recently. Since my behaviour has changed perhaps she thinks I’ve accepted her plan after all - would I be right to think that would undermine Plan A so I must tell her again?
Also, whilst she’s in withdrawal is it appropriate to ask her to clarify all my LBs in case I’m missing something important (I’m sure she won’t do the questionnaire just yet)? How about asking her, “What are all the things I do (or don’t do) that annoy or disappoint you most? Not in the past, but now?” Any other ideas?
Please be patient guys, I haven’t been here long.
By the way, I certainly won't be facilitating her affair in any way.
I've just reread the whole thread.
I think I've been confused by all the softly, softly of Plan A. What you seem to be telling me is that I must insist she ends all contact right now and just get on with my Plan A regardless of what she says or does. If she refuses to agree or carries on behind my back (as seems likely from other stories here) what then? Tell her again and carry on with my plan?
Maybe I'm stupid or maybe I'm exhausted but I'm not finding it easy to get this right.
I have ordered "Surviving an Affair".
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/22/07 01:13 PM
by george he's starting to get it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

read this on plan A

web page read this one as well

there is no reason for too short of a plan A.....

and this one

ark
Quote
I've just reread the whole thread.
I think I've been confused by all the softly, softly of Plan A. What you seem to be telling me is that I must insist she ends all contact right now and just get on with my Plan A regardless of what she says or does.

Yes.

Quote
If she refuses to agree or carries on behind my back (as seems likely from other stories here) what then? Tell her again and carry on with my plan?
Maybe I'm stupid or maybe I'm exhausted but I'm not finding it easy to get this right.

The purpose of Plan A is two-fold....One, give your wife an attractive alternative to the affair. And two, use strategies that hasten the end to the affair. If you do these things consistently for as long as you can (hopefully, not shorter than three weeks....and not longer than three months), then you go to Plan B which ends contact with your wife until she ends contact with her affair partner.

Quote
I have ordered "Surviving an Affair".

Good....that will help.
MFZ,

FWIW, I asked my then WW to enumerate my LBs and shortcomings too soon after Dday. Boy did I get a list!

Of course I now know that they were almost all justification attempts by her to make her A more easily accepted by herself and anyone else who might listen to her. She was basically trying to convince me that it was because of me and my actions that she got involved with OM.

Oh, I was able to gain a little insight into some of her real complaints, but they were only hinted at while her list was mostly about my criticism of her in various ways.

Example: If I picked up after our granddaughter, I was being critical of her for not being a good housekeeper. Of course if I didn't pick up after DGD, she complained that nobody helped her and she was doing it all herself.

At no time did I even mention that I did something to help pick up or acknowledge in any way that I did it at all, but to her, in her then WW mindset, it was an act of criticism rather than one of helping her.

So, while you may ask her for help identifying your LBs, remember that most of what you will get will be useless blame shifting. IMO, if the result is the same regardless of the answer, why bother to ask the question?

Basic LBs fall into only a handful of categories anyway, so if you avoid angry outbursts & disrespectful judgements and avoid being blatantly dishonest in your dealings with her you have pretty well taken care of the problem.

Mark
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/22/07 04:08 PM
I see that you are in good hands. Listen carefully to the advice given to you. You have a lot of good people, whose opinions I respect, on your corner. I will let them do their thing.

Remember, you'll be fine in the end.
Mark, thanks (and UVA). That sounds like good advice and I'm doing those already.
I have reminded WW that I won't accept 3 in our marriage - she understood, she says. But I don't yet have an NC agreement. Any suggestions, or a thread that might help?
Where do I go next if I don't get an NC agreement? Straight to plan B?
I'm seeing my counsellor on Thursday so may ask advice then. But as I said before, Relate counsellors (sorry about British spelling) are like consultants who borrow your watch to tell you the time. I'm not sure it's worth going any more. Anyone recommend a good IC in SE England?
Wrote to OMW with MB's site address plus brief description and invited her to work together with me to beat them. I hope she looks into it and develops her own Plan A - from what I know (unreliably) she is very controlling and that's her big LB.
I am tempted to give WW a copy of Trueheart's letter. Also (if I can find it again) the thread that shows everything she says is exactly what all WSs say - might make her think. Is that jumping the gun at this stage?
Quote
Anyone recommend a good IC in SE England?


No, but I know a wonderful Life Coach who lives in Norway (originally from the US) and is very knowledable in the ways of MB. I've done about 8 or 9 months of Life Coaching (via phone) with her and it's been fantastic.

I have contact info if you're interested. Feel free to email me at foregoodreasons@yahoo.com if you want it.
Quote
I am tempted to give WW a copy of Trueheart's letter

See my signature....

Larry
Thanks Larry. I wanted her to realise how boringly commonplace her feelings and reactions are so it feels less special. The question is, should I keep my powder dry? She hasn't reached the stage of wanting to make the M work yet.
Norway seems a bit far Mr Alias. Does he have Skype or other cheap phone connection? Thanks, I may mail you later.
Posted By: Trix Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/22/07 09:34 PM
In the States we have cheap online long distance phone service...it costs .0220 cents per minute to call the UK. If you have something similar I would think you could try phone counseling with the Harley's. I would think that with the favourable exchange rate if wouldn't be cost prohibitive at $185 per hour. You could probably get lots more from a couple of sessions with them than several sessions with your regular IC's or MC's.
MFZ,

With the favourable £/$ rate I'd seriously suggest the Harley's. I used my mobile (o2) via a international carrier & it came off my free minutes - it isn't that much dearer that Relate. Shout me back if you need the details.

b.p.m.
p.s. My 0.02: keep your powder dry.
Will look into cheap-call operators Trix . Details would be useful please BPM - by the way, are there reasons for keeping powder dry or is it gut instinct? Thanks again.
I think I'm making progress with my attitude and self-image. I'm just wondering if I'm beginning to lose too much respect/regard for WW. Maybe it's just one of my mood swings. Have organised a sunny-day picnic for her later today which I will prepare - addressing one of the LBs (or is it an EN?)
MFZ:

It's just a gut feeling (I've not yet told F?WW wife about MB). In the early days, way back in the long long before time of Jan 07 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, I suppose I didn't want her to know I had a plan; she could have prepared against it & it wouldn't be as effective (she was commited to OM then).

Good to hear you're making progress with yourself; are you plan A (do you have a plan) ??

Hope the weather stays good for you. Phone details to follow...

b.p.m.
Just looked at my phone bills, the number I used was 08708010202 - website (I think) was http://www.firstnumber.co.uk.

Good luck.
Quote
Norway seems a bit far Mr Alias. Does he have Skype or other cheap phone connection? Thanks, I may mail you later.


Yep, SHE uses Skype. There were no phone expenses involved. You just got to love that. I'm in the US (Wisconsin) and that's how we conducted our sessions each week.

Phone counseling actually has some real benefits. Heh, you don't have to leave your home to get better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here's her website if you wish to check it out first.

http://www.dbdcoach.com/

Hopefully I'm not violating any MB rules by posting a non-affiliated coaching website.

Just remember the coaching will be designed to only help you work on you. I'm not sure it will do anything to save your M but it will definitely help you have a better life.

If you are hoping to save your M and can't afford to do both coaching and MC then I suggest you start with the MC and yes most definitely use the Harleys.
BPM - I'm Plan A but not sure if I really have a good plan. I'm avoiding disrespectful judgements and doing my best to address the identified LB/ENs - better conversation and taking the initiative to do stuff for/with her. But she hasn't committed to NC and I haven't exposed A to the children or best friends yet. We're away together next week and then it's her birthday so opportunities for some credits. Meeting with MC tomorrow (solo) so will see what emerges from that. I'm feeling better (generally) and she's feeling down - I think tougher action is due but want to get this as right as I can. Your URL link doesn't work but I'll search for it.
Mr A - I'm probably about due for some IC. Thanks for your suggestion.
Another AFFAIR MARRIAGE on MB...Wow, this is just an epidemic lately, eh? It amazes me that someone in such a ?"marriage"? will come to this venue, which is chocked full of the victims of infidelity, and actually ask for help...I see that as VERY CRUEL and VERY ENTITLED...

JMHO...

Mrs. W
I swear that Mrs. W and I are not in cahoots or even corresponding, but I do agree with her.

My dad and step mom have been in an affair marriage for 26 years, my FIL and step MIL for 22 years - they are still affair marriages and what goes around comes around.

With so many people here hurting, it seems unfair to them.

Maybe they could start a section where you could post if you are trying to save an affair marriage- that way those trying to save a marriage wrecked by an affair would be free from accidentally clicking on the thread and being hurt by reading it.
in case PK wants to accuse me of mysogeny....

Let me be completely clear and blunt

anyone who helps someone in an affair marriage will quite happily help your WS and OP if they come here for help in the future while you and your children are abandoned.
Sorry, MiM ~

Quote
Guys, this might be an AM, but it's still a 28-year M. I think what ManFromZog needs at the moment is helpful advice, not sarcastic remarks to remind him of poor decisions he made 28 years ago.

...but you are way off base here. He DOES need to remember, and ALL waywards need to remember, that the ramifications of their actions can go on and on...and haunt you AND those around you (his children, for one!!!) for decades. There are consequences to our actions. That is they way God has set it up.

Waywards forget that it is not all about them...that their actions will affect many generations. This is a perfect example.
Quote
anyone who helps someone in an affair marriage will quite happily help your WS and OP if they come here for help in the future while you and your children are abandoned.

Oh yeah, I forgot this...good job, Big K ~ you hit the nail right on the head.
SAA arrived this morning and I have read the first 5 chapters in one go. The main marriage/affair story (Sue’s and Jon’s) is amazingly like ours. I admit I was a bit reluctant to get the book, I was here getting the key points anyway plus feedback from others involved in similar situations – what more did I need?
Also I’m a Brit and there’s a slight American flavour that made me reluctant. No offence guys, I’m not anti-American; it’s just that old thing about being divided by a common language! “Love Busters” for example; the meaning’s clear (US-English can be wonderfully simple and direct), it’s just not English-English. And all these abbreviations I have to look up constantly. But the book is great and the Harleys have done well to write in a more international way.
Well, that’s beside the point. I’m glad I got the book. The question now is whether (or when?) to share it with WW (hah, hah). If I do so now, assuming she agrees to read it, she’s going to know I’m trying (struggling) with Plan A and there’s a threatened Plan B down the road. Is it good that she knows that, does it lessen the power of the process? On the other hand, by recognising the parallels with Sue and Jon (assuming she does) perhaps it will help her to see how “normal” her story is, and how destruction to herself, to me and everyone.
I probably know the answers but please be generous with yours. I’m not walking upright yet and need a hand.
Not sure why some of you bother to reply – are you trying to help me or yourselves? Hope you feel better anyway.
Sure, I made a big mistake 30 years ago but I at least learnt something from it and would NEVER have repeated it knowing the pain and damage it caused all round. Guess I didn’t learn enough to prevent this happening and wonder how many chances one gets.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 12:09 PM
************************************************************************************EDIT********************************************************************perhaps you have learned nothing since your entitled affair days since they never, in fact, stopped. The point is...many people are offended by the very presence of an affair marriage on this site. Imagine someone that just found out about an affair in their legitimate marriage and they come here and click on your thread... think that might cause them a problem?
Quote
Not sure why some of you bother to reply – are you trying to help me or yourselves? Hope you feel better anyway.
Guess I didn’t learn enough to prevent this happening and wonder how many chances one gets.

Around here nobody gets any chances at all, trust me. If you aren't a perfect, dyed-in-the-wool, first-and-only spouse and your relationship doesn't fit the criteria of being "good enough" for this community you're gonna get blasted, no matter how long ago your other life was.

I know.

I once made the fatal error of admitting that I began dating my current WH before his divorce was legally finalized. Of course, it's a topic of constant debate on the Divorcing/Divorced board if people should date before their divorces are legally final (and some here choose to do it) but it's also normal here for those who post to hold others to a super-human higher standard.

You're just going to have to get used to that dichotomy if you are going to continue to post.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 12:36 PM
people don't get nailed for having divorced and remarried....there are lots of those here. What they get nailed about are affair marriages. I personally think it is okay to date while awaiting the judges signature on the paperwork... it is a formality as far as I am concerned. But there are limits...such as if they were living together when you meet and start a relationship.... that is an affair IMO.
MFZ,

I'm starting to see a very nasty trend happening to you on this thread. Sorry you find yourself being attacked. Many people don't see that you get off just because you committed your A some 30 years ago.

It's a hard thing to do ... to forgive someone for doing something that many consider one of the most cruel things a person can do. I know I have had a tough time forgiving one of my brothers for his A, for D'ing is 1st W who our family loves very much and for marrying his A partner. In his case I think leaving his W was probably for the best but I sure wish he wouldn't have made the mistake of having that A. What's done is done and so I'm choosing to move on from there.

Me, I see you made a mistake, MFZ, and are trying hard not to make a different mistake this time. Good for you for being more mature about your choices this time.

Please remember there is plenty of help here for you and despite others believing you don't belong you have a place here, somewhere. You are as entitled to be here as anyone else that finds themselves here. After all this is a marriage building site not a site for first time marriage non-wayward partners only.

I would like to ask some questions. It's well documented that cheating spouses are more prone to cheat again. The percentages of A partner marriages actually lasting are staggeringly low.

So ... what makes you think your W will someday commit herself to being faithful? She's shown what her natural tendency is when things don't turn out like she'd hoped. What makes you think she will eventually invest in this one and not commit adultery again? Has she made some comment that she thinks infidelity is a choice she wishes she wouldn't make?
MFZ,

I am fine with your presence on this site. The purpose that most of us are here is to understand what we have been through, how to move forward, and how to prevent this in the future. I believe that the more points of view we have, the clearer the picture gets. There are a lot of very bitter people on this site, which is understandable; however, until we get over our bitterness, we are not truly healed.
Quote
Let me be completely clear and blunt

anyone who helps someone in an affair marriage will quite happily help your WS and OP if they come here for help in the future while you and your children are abandoned.

Big K....I know where you're coming from, but I'm not sure that everyone who helps a person whose obviously made poor choices, has blurred boundaries about right and wrong or would aid and abet unethical behavior. In fact, I think most people would not. It seems like an example of an inductive fallacy. I have a friend of mine who teaches the bible in one of the local prisons. That doesn't mean she would help any of them commit a crime or that she supports criminal behavior. An inductive fallacy concerning that situation might proceed in this way:

People who help criminals are criminals themselves.
Susan reads the bible to men in jail.
Therefore Susan is a criminal.

I think the "kind" of help is relevent....and on this forum....the kind of "help" that any affair marriage is likely to get will include a reality check about the past and it's effect on the present.

A man I know mentors troubled boys....but he isn't "troubled" himself. The actions of these boys are a large portion of the reason they need mentoring. They need a new "compass". I know that Dr. Harley counsels folks whose marriages had unethical beginnings....but I know he wouldn't help a WS to remain wayward or help an OP destroy a marriage, and neither would the people on this forum.

In MIMs situation....someone said the "karma bus" just arrived....and that's a very true statement. The tragic consequences of affairs are built right into the system and it's really clear in this situation....that what "goes around, comes around". The question is where does he go from here? What can he learn? How can this destructive cycle end so that we stop passing down the suffering and the legacy of affairs to our children?

I think it's very enlightening and validating for BSs to see by example that even after all this time....there is no escaping the the reality of affairs. It actually affirms all the things we know about the dismal success of affair marriages....even those that last a long time....because their foundation was corrupted from the start.

We can attempt to chase off anyone who comes here in an affair marriage, and we can label anyone who dares to speak them as corrupted too....but I can think of no better place for someone in an affair marriage to get a dose of reality, come face to face with the pain they've caused both others and themselves, or find a new compass for the future....than this place.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 01:42 PM
Quote
There are a lot of very bitter people on this site, which is understandable; however, until we get over our bitterness, we are not truly healed


yep...and there are a lot of insensitive ***** too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Thank you losinit, I understand what you are saying. And MrA too.
It's hard to answer your question Mr A. In early talks after the revelation she admitted that she might be the kind of person that is always vulnerable to this but I'm certain she's not proud of herself or her behaviour. She came away from her first solo MC session with the message that she was entitled to happiness and that she needed time. She didn't pick up that she needed time APART from MOM which is what the same counsellor told me at a later solo session. I think this is the result of the "house style" at Relate - they just seem to ask how YOU feel and what YOU think you should do so I expect it was just a reflection of what she had expressed. I think it's had a damaging effect.
Nevertheless it's clear that W knows I am trying to do my best to overcome our problems and she tries to respond. She never goes to sleep or leaves the house without a goodnight/bye hug now. She smiles encouragement when she can but as her moods get lower she is less cocky about her "entitlement". I think she wishes she could respond to me more fully but of course she can't while the affair isn't over.
Quote
yep...and there are a lot of insensitive ***** too.

MK- not sure if yuo're trying to take a shot at me here, but just to be clear, I would include myself in the catagory of "bitter people". The only point I was trying to make is that anyone who is on this site that is here for help, or to help, can have something positive to add; een if it is what not to do.
MFZ, I deeply apologize for the rampant hashing of your 28 year marriage.

28 years, folks. Isn't that longer than the average marriage? 28 years of fidelity.

Whom are you to judge? We don't know what happened in the first marriage. All we know is that it didn't last as some, despite the best effort, don't; and this man made a regretable mistake before the marriage was dissolved. But it WAS dissolved. Ended. No more. Plan D. He isn't going back, to do so would be cruel. Hasn't been back for 28 years.

Is it fair to be throwing stones when each and every one of us has faults, is a sinner, needs forgiveness from our spouses, our god, and our peers. Who here has never neglected your spouse, yelled at, was passively aggressive towards, or otherwise drove your spouse to some level of insanity (that includes the holier-than-thou clause, the codependant, the jealous, the work-a-holic, the big spender, the EAee, the lier, the addict, the so-called frigid, the inattention to personal beauty, the controlling, the independantly inclined, etc). Maybe you are the BS, and you are angry. Maybe you are the WW spouse, and you are bitter. But this man did not cause your pain. He's only triggering your fears of what can happen when our abuse, neglect, or otherwise poor choice goes too far for too long.

28 years, affair free. Children.

If his ExW still pines for him during his 28 year M, that's not love. That's a psychological problem. We are doing her no harm by helping MFZ heal his current, 28 year M, with children (can we say that they won't be affected, even if they are grown? I would bet if you ask them, they would say their parents' marriage is legitamite). This isn't fog. He recognizes the damage he did before, even if he didn't know enough to repair it. Again, we know nothing about the first W. It takes two to make, or break, a M. Perhaps she didn't want him back. Perhaps she spent all his money, or ate soup with her fingers. Does it matter? It is over.

Where is the grace this forum has been so generous with?

If this is so painful to watch, stop reading MFZ's thread. Be healthy.

Look into yourselves and see how you angrily responded to R/H. You'd prefer to be lied to...THIS IS YOUR CROSS TO BEAR, or put down. Would you prefer MFZ get a new account and ID, and return with a "similar" story, but leaving out how the marriage started? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

MFZ, you are a well-adjusted person to see through the bitter responses you have received to find the jewels that also have been contributed. You appear to have some good people in your corner. If you can stick it out, I think you will come out ahead.

Yikes, that's how your counseling works? It seems somewhat grounded, in helping one figure out what you want (and possibly letting the A burn out naturally), but there appears to be no common goal.

If it isn't cost prohibitive, I think calling the Harleys might produce more focused results.
Quote
Yikes, that's how your counseling works? It seems somewhat grounded, in helping one figure out what you want (and possibly letting the A burn out naturally), but there appears to be no common goal.

If it isn't cost prohibitive, I think calling the Harleys might produce more focused results.


MFZ, based on what you've stated I think that Chobbs suggestion is a very good one. This Relate community doesn't appear to be 'proactive' enough to help with the dangerous behaviors of an A. A wayward spouse stuck in the fog isn't something you can handle lightly. She needs to hear from someone how her current thinking is blurred by the allure of A that comes with very little strings attached.

The Harleys will go for the jugular ... so to speak.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 03:01 PM
Those of you who detest MFZ being here should just ignore his thread. Some of us, who believe that people can change and be forgiven, want to help him. Many of you, obviously, want to keep throwing stones at MFZ; so go ahead and do it and hopefully feel better about your sanctimonious selves, and then do the rest of us a favor and please leave his thread.

MFZ needs help. His family and his two children need assistance from those of us who want to assist him.

This is really simple. If you want to help him, stay and do (or observe). If you think MFZ is an unredeemable scumbag, say your peace if you feel the psychological urge to do so and ignore his thread or just observe.

None of us owns this site; just as you have a right to be here so does MFZ. To be sure, just like anyone else you do have a right to express yourselves. But there is no need to be a perennial pain in the [censored] about it.

We’ve heard your views.

Call us dopes, or whatever. Thanks for your opinions, and now we would like to get back to the business of helping a family with two children in need.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 03:12 PM
you can not educate an active WS
there is no point....

it goes in one ear....and out the other....

it will become a powerstruggle...

speak YOUR pain about contact.....

speak it clearly and directly......

you can read surviving an affair in front of her...but do not ask or read it to her....

how old are your children...?

how is your plan a going...

are you joyful..
engaging her in things she likes...
giving her small token of appreciation...

what is her current stand on exposure.....

does she know you have talked with the OM's wife...
you should tell her....

not too much.....
just that you two have talked.....

ARK
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 03:27 PM
Quote
two children in need.


yeah, I am certain that his 28 year old son and 26 year old daughter are in need over this.

as far as being a perenial pain in the [censored]... at what point does an affair marriage become okay to stick in the face of a newly BS??? There have been new people that popped into another recent thread that clearly stated that they were offended by having an affair marriage supported here...how would you answer those people that stumble upon a thread and are harmed by the content???
Maybe if your wife decides to rut around with another and shows up here next week looking for a sympathetic reply it will be okay to let her know we support her affair....or is it just a matter of how much time passes... throw enough dirt (years) on something and it ceases to be offensive due to the passage of time.
Nope.
I have no problem with ManFromZog getting help-I do think he needs it...SOMEWHERE...It is the VENUE in which he chooses to do so that I take issue with...I don't understand how the WRONGNESS of his being HERE asking for help does not smack EVERYONE right in the middle of the forehead...This is an INFIDELITY SUPPORT GROUP forum manned and sought out by the VICTIMS of Infidelity...GQII is not a board run by professional objective counselors/coaches...Helping ManFromZog in this arena is the equivalent of counseling a rapist among rape victims...ManFromZog is NOT a VICTIM, rather he is a VOLUNTEER...I would think that HE would wish to exercise COMPASSION and seek counsel elsewhere...EVEN if it is in another section of Marriage Builders where those that wish to help him can, but NOT here in the TRENCHES of GQII...That was the solution when this came up here before...If ManFromZog is sincere in his desire to get HELP, then it should not bother him to receive that help in another section here, should it? I would suggest that either he or one of those that wish to help him, set up a thread perhaps somewhere like~~~> HERE... I believe that makes good compassionate and caring sense, doesn't it?

I would think that one of the lessons that ManFromZog would have learned is NOT to ignore the feelings of VICTIMS...If he hasn't learned that, then perhaps it is high time that he did...COMPASSION and EMPATHY for the VICTIMS and the VUNERABLE here should most definitely be considered, wouldn't you agree ManFromZog?

Mrs. W
MFZ,

I, also, urge you to call the Harleys. Why? Because I perceive you want clarity more than anything...which is great. And your WW's six-year affair seems to me to have been six years of cake eating. I'd like more info on how they really conducted their A, and why her opinion that's more an EA than a PA (it's both...you determine what you believe).

Clarity would call for seeing how much phone time they spent, email time, digging up all the traces of their A and having a really good look at it...stop taking any WW says as the truth...or MOM...because fog is the antithesis of truth. I promise you this...I've been there.

Next, when you're operating from facts, then expose to the hobby group...and here's why. I see you as choosing totally response-based actions. That's chasing your tail in life, a part of fantasy, because that makes all your choices dependent on others' possible reactions...of which you have no control nor influence, if they don't allow you to.

Your pain and heartbreak was not allowed as an influence on your WW's decision to have and continue her A. She's gotten away with it for a long time, IMO, and the fog has set in hard. Changing the process you make your choices from will break you out of it, which is clearing your half of the marriage. Evens the odds.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would you consider exposure as an act of living from truth? Your WW chose to be unfaithful. Sharing this with the hobby group (both her location group and his), is not to manipulate...simply to share truth. You don't know what other marriages may benefit from you doing this. Your choice would be to act to your code...to live from truth, not fantasy...and that action supports your own code.

You made a boundary around yourself to not be unfaithful again. That's awesome. Did you apologize and own to your first wife what you did, what you learned and how you won't do it again? If not, it's worth doing even these decades later...for YOU...not based on her possible response.

You know your WW's mindset really well right now...you had 30 years ago...you now hold yourself to a higher (reality-based) standard...hold your WW to it, as well.

Plan A to me is being authentic...stating your truth and knowing it's separate from The Truth. It's putting into practice a lot of respect-filled choices, which you cannot do if you're looking to manipulate to get your WW to stop her A. Manipulation got you both here...I don't see where spending your time trying to determine what will or won't get her back into the marriage will gain you. If she does choose NC and to work on the marriage, and you believe you manipulated her with the plans, then what have you really gotten back?

However, doing the exact same things from the intent to be the man you've always been and didn't trust to be...acting authentically from your code and owning your stuff (and sharing it), will get you a whole new marriage, and if not, a whole new way to live. Win/Win.

Grow/Grow.

I also believe that Plan A is where you bring reality to the fog-stuck WS.

Since I see your WW as cake eating for years...I advise a very short, intense Plan A. Prepare now for Plan B...because you have met her ENs...I believe she loves you and doesn't want to lose you...and I want you to choose to believe this as well. Totally your choice...her feelings cannot be the truth...they are hers, and they change. Obviously, she acts from them, instead of the beliefs which they come from in her, about her. You are choosing to know you love, that it's a choice you make, even when you don't feel loving.

Grow with that. And tell your grown kids...because they are part of your lives. No burden there. If your WW was a drug addict, would that burden them? How is this different? They are adults and may have faced or will exactly what you did...like your first marriage...what would you advise them NOW?

Read The Carrot and The Stick of Plan A. Predetermine your progressive boundary enforcements and know that what you are choosing today can heal a lot from your whole life. In you. About you. Stay focused on what you have control over...yourself.

Would you also consider Alanon meetings as great support?

The way to freedom is through ownership, not blame. Remove blame from your marriage, break enmeshment and live from respect and truth. Then you won't spiral in looped thinking, act from fear-filled manipulation and double your pain of betrayal, because you're betraying yourself, as well.

You can do this. You are equal to everyone on the planet...up to you to choose that belief and live from it. I hope you will.

LA


Star - thank you for that inductive fallacy bit. I was bit hard by this belief in the other AM thread; felt taunted and condemned for it. I realized that I where I was hurting was in my own distrust of myself, when hit by posters I admired, because of my previous wayward state of mind...heck, couldn't trust me then, maybe I am an enabler of evil and don't realize it! Now I feel clear...acceptance is NOT approval...I'm here to advise others from my life experience and present beliefs. I respect posters here for help will choose from theirs...I am not powerful enough to condone their actions from the past, anymore than they, posting to me, condone mine.

Up to me...so thank you and lemme know if that's the essence of inductive fallacies...that what may appear to be approval is in fact, acceptance of the present, and our choice of actions in them.

LA
Mrs W....I really don't understand. You arrived here as a wayward spouse. Some of your first posts were about missing the OP terribly and all about your withdrawal....which was probably FAR more painful (excruciating really) for BSs on this board to listen to...than an affair that happened 28 years ago. Why was this board okay for you....but not this poster? I'm not attacking you....I'm very glad you came here and recovered your marriage. I just don't see how Zog's situation is any more painful for BSs to hear about then the withdrawal of a wayward spouse. I hope that Zog can find the same amount of good information that you did.
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 04:37 PM
I have seen no signs of non-repentance from manfrom..
I have seen no long diatribes from him on how great it was to leave his first marriage and form this one...

it's done...

and he I you them..can't change a thing...

my suggestion...use that cute little ignore function at the bottom of the screen....

in fact the fact that he is fighting for his marriage is proof that he GETS how marriages should not be disposable...

I personally feel a lot of compassion...especially the most lost among us.....who WANT to CHANGE...

doesnt' get any better than that....

ARK
One thing I can suggest is to spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together. Your kids are out of the home now, and sometimes that is a difficult time for a mother. Also the 15 hours a week fun time together will afford more opportunities to talk about happy things. It sounds like conversation is one of her needs.

I would start inviting her to do things with you. If she agrees, good. If she doesn't, then go alone and do them, and then let her know how enjoyable it was. She might decide to join you.
Quote
Mrs W....I really don't understand. You arrived here as a wayward spouse. Some of your first posts were about missing the OP terribly and all about your withdrawal....which was probably FAR more painful (excruciating really) for BSs on this board to listen to...than an affair that happened 28 years ago. Why was this board okay for you....but not this poster? I'm not attacking you....I'm very glad you came here and recovered your marriage. I just don't see how Zog's situation is any more painful for BSs to hear about then the withdrawal of a wayward spouse. I hope that Zog can find the same amount of good information that you did.

Because Star*fish, helping a WS here is also helping a BS-It was on advice from Mr. W that I come and read at MB, after doing so, I chose to post...I'd be willing to bet that almost all of the BSs here who are fighting desperately to save their marriages would give anything to have their WS come here and post asking for help, don'cha'think?

Actually, my very first posts here were asking if my feelings for Mr. W would return...I was told YES, of course...And they did...And yes we did recover...We are a Marriage Builders Success Story...Btw, when I came here spouting fog I promptly and rightfully had my [censored] handed to me...That helped us to achieve our success, in fact...Personally, my definition of success is NOT helping an affair to continue in front VICTIMS, is it yours?

Mrs. W
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 05:24 PM
THANK GOD...
that people that know me...

let alone STRANGERS
don't hold me to as being in the same mindset or person I was say 18-19 years ago...

THANK GOD>...

I was a selfish twit....

thank God thank God thank God...
seriously....

that I am NOT the same person I was then...
and those that know me...

KNOW I am NOT that person.....

should we sew the scarlett A right to his skin skipping it on the clothing...

how about a lovely tattoo....

ARK
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 05:27 PM
****edit*****... between you and LA I want to puke. This is a simple issue and Mrs. W has done a great job pointing that out. You are just too clever with this stuff.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 05:44 PM
MEDC,

You made some good points. Let’s take a look. Firstly, you mentioned that a new observer or poster at MB could be offended by the content of this thread, presumably because he or she is suffering from the emotional and psychological pains caused by an A. I see your point, but we are not responsible for another person sense of sensibility. We cannot control what would be too sensitive for any reader. As I suggested earlier, if a person is 2 offended or 2 sensitive for the material here, he or she should just leave this thread. I do not see a rule on this site saying that people in MFZ’s situation should not post here, nor that they not get help. It is not up to any of us to try to thwart the help that MFZ may get from GQII. As should be clear, many on GQII feel that MFZ is more than welcome here and are more than willing to help him. I do not see why you and the others want to impose your choice not to help him on those of us who do.

Secondly, you rightly mentioned that MFZ children are 26 and 28 years old. I am well aware of this. Children suffer from the destruction of their family no matter how old they are. Unless you believe that once a person becomes 18, he or she is no longer affected by the state of his or her parents’ relationship, I do not see how your point applies. True, the level of pain and how much they may be affected may be less intense than in those who are much younger, but to pooh-pooh their feelings or the effects that a divorce of their PARENTS would have on them seems to me to be unwarranted, a disrespectful judgment, if you will.

Lastly, you argued that time should not be a factor, the factor in determining the moral (?) worth or acceptability of a M. This is a good argument I might add. The crux of the matter for me here is that the new M produced two children, while the first one did not. I agree with you that AM are abominable. They should not be encouraged, nor praised. And in normal circumstances, they should not be abetted. But sometime relevant factors warrant that a case be treated differently from how one would normally go about it.

To recap: in MFZ’s case, he has two children in this M. He has been in this M for 28 years. He does not have any children from the previous M. I think then taken as a whole these factors balance such that MFZ should get help to save his M if he so chooses 2. To be sure, I think this is one issue where reasonable minds can differ. And it is because of this last point that I find it hard to fathom why people insist on staying on this thread even though they don’t think MFZ deserves any help.


Ms. Wondering,

Let me preface that I have admired your transformation and your character for a while now. (And having been Mr. W’s lowly paralegal for a few years now, I also think he is cool also). In fact, I was thinking of you the other as one of the best FWS I have ever seen on this board. You are what I call a “No Excuse, No Justification FWS.”

Now to your point. You suggest that since GQII is an infidelity support group, MFZ should get help elsewhere. In particular, you said,
Quote
This is an INFIDELITY SUPPORT GROUP forum manned and sought out by the VICTIMS of Infidelity
Does this imply that it was wrong for you to seek and get help from GQII when you first came to MB? I would say no, even though you were not a VICTIM in your sitch. Further, this is MB, not just an infidelity site. Thus, I am not sure why you assume that GQII is just for victims of adultery. From what I have observed, GQII (MB) has also helped, albeit often with numerous 2x4’s, lots of FWS. And in some cases the person seeking and getting help is neither a BS nor WS. Again, I see no rule that says that a person who is in a situation similar to MFZ should not get help on GQII.

I know you may feel otherwise, but this is just your feeling, not the rule on MB, nor the way everyone feels about it. As we all know, feeling is not a sufficient index for determining what is right.

Like I said to MEDC above, there is room for disagreement here, and I just can’t understand why we can’t agree to disagree here.
The Harleys have a system. It seems to work - at least it makes a lot of sense. What I wish they would do is establish an international franchise - train other counsellors so that we could get local help, face to face. I bet they'd find lots of excellent recruits here (star*fish?).
Anyone care to offer a view on whether to share SAA now or whether that would undermine Plan A/B?
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 05:47 PM
MEDC,

I am not sure why you want to take this to an extreme level of rudeness.
Quote
Personally, my definition of success is NOT helping an affair to continue in front VICTIMS, is it yours?


Why would anyone want to be called a victim? How sad that would make me feel to have someone call me a victim. I am not a victim. I am not powerless. I am accountable and responsible for everything that has happened and will happen to me.

Should my W have chosen to have an A it is in part because I did a piss poor job of fulfilling my role as a healthy and whole H.

If you were to call me a victim I would call you to the floor on it.
I wouldn't share SAA until your WW goes NC...and I would advise your counselor to tell your WW directly, as our MC did, that she can't make a reasonable decision about staying in the marriage or not if she has any contact with OM. Undue influence. Not real and not reasonable in deciding her life.

My WH quit the OW same day our MC said that. He wasn't recommitted to the marriage...just cutting out the influence which twisted his reality around. Went for clarity, not commitment. Took him another two months to decide for the marriage, and even then, reluctantly (withdrawal). Then he was open to working on the marriage...and we've recovered.

Remember when you were wayward? Felt like it was your BW's doing? Stupid reasoning, like if she could love you, not feeling loved by her...all that crap? That's fog. Again, bases YOUR choices on others' feelings...very tangled.

LA
I'm not the most dedicated Christian in the world...but aren't the concepts of remorse, redemption, and forgiveness key components of the faith? If a person sins mightily in his or her youth but, recognizing the sin, thereafter commits to living virtuously, is there no chance of finding redemption and forgiveness?

Seems to me John 8:1-11 might just apply here.
Posted By: 2long Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 06:07 PM
I have a different view on this kind of sitch.

I think the goal here should be in helping victims of infidelity 2 end the A and recover their sanity, if not their marriage.

Recovering an AM that is subsequently aflicted with another A is just more complicated than recovering a M unencumbered by A baggage from square one.

Add 2 that the fact that this one is 28 years old - okay, the odds against the M surviving 5 years were beaten in this particular case. But it's really "only" a 22-yr M of faithfulness, if Zog's WW has really been in this A for the past 6 years. AND, it's a LTA, if not a VLTA, which is something of a whole 'nother mother 2 have 2 deal with.

My W had a 12-yr A, and recovery has been glacially slow and sometimes painfully difficult for me (and her, though I am still much less privvy 2 her perspective). And our 31 yr marriage isn't an A marriage.

I don't know what I would do in a si2ation similar 2 zog's. Even now, when I'm upset about something, even if it's not related 2 our recovery or even our M, I sometimes think I'd rather call it quits than stay 2gether. When I'm in moods like that, the tendency for me 2 respond 2 sitches like this with "toss her 2 the curb and move on" kinds of messages is greater, though I am thankful that even when I'm in "a mood" I am much less likely 2 be reactionary when I post than I used 2 be.

So, again: What's the goal, here? I would argue that, first and foremost, it's 2 get Zog on firmer footing so that he can ultimately make his decisions with a stable and calm frame of mind.

Zog, you can't educate a WS, so don't even try. If she asks what you're reading, showing her is okay, but she's not likely 2, or if she does ask, she's most likely 2 denegrate you for wasting your time and effort on the advice of "quacks". And you need 2 be prepared 2 slough biting remarks like that right off your back.

-ol' 2long
Ms W,

Quote
Because Star*fish, helping a WS here is also helping a BS-It was on advice from Mr. W that I come and read at MB, after doing so, I chose to post...I'd be willing to bet that almost all of the BSs here who are fighting desperately to save their marriages would give anything to have their WS come here and post asking for help, don'cha'think?

Zog is a BS now who was a WS then. He has unfortunately worn both hats and karma has come full circle. I still think we're helping a BS. And yes, I think he would love for his WS to come and post here and get the benefit of good counsel like you did.

Quote
Actually, my very first posts here were asking if my feelings for Mr. W would return...I was told YES, of course...And they did...And yes we did recover

Here is your first post:

Quote
Hi,
I've been reading a lot about affairs, but I seem only to find things that address the issues or needs of the BS...My husband and I are both currently reading Surviving an Affair, and I do want to save my marriage...However, I just got out of the affair about 10 days ago and I am really having a difficult timing adjusting. I miss the OP and still have feelings of love towards him...etc. Does anyone else have these types of feelings and if so, what do you do to get through them? I keep hurting my H everytime I have these feelings and am honest about them...where do I go from here? I want to have loving feelings about my H, but right now, everything he does just seems needy and unattractive...I'm truly at a loss...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2749178

Despite your fog....you were welcomed and given good advice. As a betrayed spouse myself, I've always thought those kind of posts are the most difficult to read....the ones where the WS still "loves" the OP. I find them much more raw and painful. Hearing about an affair marriage that is currently in an affair....much easier and validating, and not nearly as triggering as hearing a fogged spouse lamenting the loss of their soulmate. As a betrayed spouse....I think I can speak to what hurts me. Begging your pardon, but how do you know what a BS feels? Or needs protection from?

Quote
...We are a Marriage Builders Success Story...Btw, when I came here spouting fog I promptly and rightfully had my [censored] handed to me...That helped us to achieve our success, in fact...Personally, my definition of success is NOT helping an affair to continue in front VICTIMS, is it yours?

I am one of those victims you speak of, as well as an MB success story....and I think all of this stuff is hard...no question. Many things that are worth doing are hard.

Would it have helped you to be banished to an inactive part of the forum because your posts might upset us? Or did you learn from the very people who had suffered just like your husband did and could voice his pain? Maybe now that you've gotten help, the rules should change about who can post here? Why do you think your journey from wayward spouse to enlightened spouse....is any more legitimate or comfortable for us BSs than Zogs?

The important thing....is that you were able to see the big picture.....and I think that's what's important for Zog too. You were held accountable....and I have no question that Zog will too.
MFZ, I'd stay away from anything that may seem to educate your wife. Other have said "WS cannot be educated" I'd take away the qualifier. Spouses cannot be educated against their desires, and sometimes not even when they want to be! Just try teaching your spouse to ski, or ride a horse, or play golf.

On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with leaving it in plain view on a bookshelf. SAA is not secret.
OK, so not yet then. Get to NC at least and then give her the opportunity to find SAA - if SHE wants to read what's in it. Bless you forgiving souls and sorry to anger the others.
Just told my W all the reasons why I loved her. Great job, she appreciated it. On a roll so I just added something else that was on my mind, which was OK. Then another thing, plus one more. All true but cumulatively cancelled all the credits I just earned. I suppose I didn't want her to think I was a total doormat so couldn't stop when I was ahead. Doh!
I'm getting better but we're going nowhere fast.
Star:

Thanks for posting that link to MrsW.

I will list who posted to her on that first thread:

Believer
Alphin
StillSeeking
FaithfulFollower
GBH
LowOrbit
AussieWife
Rose55
Pep
Susan

and

Just Learning.

Quite a respected list of posters to a newbie.

None, I repeat None, handed her @ss to her.

For three pages. Maybe later in a different thread, MrsW may have lost something off her backside.

Did MrsW continue to claim that she loved her OM? No. SHE GOT IT. Real fast.

So, that brings us to ZOG.

Does he appear to be getting it?

Yes.

Are the circumstances of his marriage unfortunate? Yes. But that was a long time ago.

So, offer Zog the Advice he is seeking. If he is unrepentant and unwilling to do the work, or the kind you want to help, ignore him.
Quote
Ms. Wondering,

Let me preface that I have admired your transformation and your character for a while now. (And having been Mr. W’s lowly paralegal for a few years now, I also think he is cool also). In fact, I was thinking of you the other as one of the best FWS I have ever seen on this board. You are what I call a “No Excuse, No Justification FWS.” [quote]

Thank you for the wonderful compliments UVA, they are much appreciated...I think you know that I've admired many of your posts around here as well...

[quote]Now to your point. You suggest that since GQII is an infidelity support group, MFZ should get help elsewhere. In particular, you said,

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is an INFIDELITY SUPPORT GROUP forum manned and sought out by the VICTIMS of Infidelity



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does this imply that it was wrong for you to seek and get help from GQII when you first came to MB? I would say no, even though you were not a VICTIM in your sitch.

Well, I believe that I answered this question already in my reply to Star*fish, but I'll restate it...Anytime that a WS comes here, seeks and receives help, a BS is inadvertantly being helped...I have no doubt that BSs are hurt when a WS comes here spewing fog, but I believe that they understand that that is part and parcel of the infidelity equation-not to mention that the WS gets their [censored] handed to them on a silver platter...The BSs here get that another BS is helped by clearing WS fog...As I said earlier, I believe most, if not all, BSs here that are fighting to save their marriages would LOVE to see their WSs come here to read and post seeking help...I believe the goal here is to smite adultery is it not?

Of course you are correct, I was NO VICTIM, you'll hear no argument from me otherwise...My own poor choices landed me in the hot water that I was in upon my arrival here...I fully own that...Mr. W and I remain forever indebted to this forum because of all that it has done to help us restore our marriage...That is the very reason that we remain today...

I can tell you that even though I was NOT a victim upon my arrival here, I was most certainly very vunerable-looking for any way to rationalize, justify or perhaps continue in the affair-Hey, I was so sick I went in search of ways to try and beat the infidelity odds-"WS Logic" is NUTS...I believe threads like this can most certainly be harmful to a vunerable WS reading here-which of course is HARMFUL to the BS...WSs all believe themselves to be unique, of course, so when they read a story such as this one, they will NOT take it as a cautionary tale, nope, on the contrary, what it communicates to them is that their affair CAN work and lead to the "ultimate prize"...MARRIAGE!!! And ESPECIALLY when they see that "marriage" being LEGITIMIZED here...It tells them that their affair can STOP being an affair with the passage of time or children born...PUHLEASE...


Quote
Further, this is MB, not just an infidelity site. Thus, I am not sure why you assume that GQII is just for victims of adultery. From what I have observed, GQII (MB) has also helped, albeit often with numerous 2x4’s, lots of FWS. And in some cases the person seeking and getting help is neither a BS nor WS. Again, I see no rule that says that a person who is in a situation similar to MFZ should not get help on GQII.

Um, UVA, GQII DOES fall under the category of INFIDELITY here at MB...I did suggest an alternative section of MB for ManFromZog to receive help from those that wish to offer it...Again, that is just asking for him and others to show COMPASSION to the suffering and vunerable herein...I don't think that is too much to ask, I really don't, do you?

Also, when the one asking for help here is neither a BS or WS they aren't causing hurt or possible harm to the people here, are they? So that does not a viable argument make UVA, sorry...

You are right, there is no rule that says he can't post here, just as there is no rule that says we can't post our opinions about his situation on his thread-To paraphrase 'Evil Thrives, When Good Men Stand Silent'...Voicing our opinions is not a violation of the TOS...Again, just asking for ManFromZog and others to exercise compassion...I don't see the problem with that...Why is GQII the only place on MB that he can get the help that he says he wants? It seems to me that he personally would be better served in an area not so sensitized to his situation-less distractions for him, right? Doesn't that make sense?


Quote
I know you may feel otherwise, but this is just your feeling, not the rule on MB, nor the way everyone feels about it. As we all know, feeling is not a sufficient index for determining what is right.

I'm sorry, it's not just feeling, IMO...To me it doesn't seem anywhere close to logical or reasonable for someone in an Affair Marriage to be advised on how to keep their AFFAIR alive and kicking in this arena full of suffering and vunerablity due to infidelity...*scratching my head on that one*

Quote
Like I said to MEDC above, there is room for disagreement here, and I just can’t understand why we can’t agree to disagree here.

We certainly can agree to disagree-I'm under no delusion that I'll change your mind about helping an Affair Marriage on GQII-I CAN hope though! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...Why the need to silence those that disagree with you? Why must we be told to ignore this? Is that the kind of advice that is going to be given out on MB from now on? "IGNORE THE ADULTERY!!!" SERIOUSLY??? Does that actually make any sense to you? Sorry, but I'm hard pressed to see how anyone can do the mental gymnastics necessary to get logic out of that...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Quote
THANK GOD...
that people that know me...

let alone STRANGERS
don't hold me to as being in the same mindset or person I was say 18-19 years ago...

THANK GOD>...

I was a selfish twit....

thank God thank God thank God...
seriously....

that I am NOT the same person I was then...
and those that know me...

KNOW I am NOT that person.....

-emphasis mine


Ark, I assume that it's safe to say that whatever it was that you were doing way back when that you wouldn't wish to be judged for now has stopped, correct? ManFromZog's Affair CONTINUES...When does it stop being an affair? If at some point affairs earn legitimacy and cease to be affairs, then what in the world are we all doing here? Why bother fighting for traditional marriage? What's the point? Eventually everyone will get over it and life will go on, eh?

Quote
Why would anyone want to be called a victim? How sad that would make me feel to have someone call me a victim. I am not a victim. I am not powerless. I am accountable and responsible for everything that has happened and will happen to me.

Should my W have chosen to have an A it is in part because I did a piss poor job of fulfilling my role as a healthy and whole H.

If you were to call me a victim I would call you to the floor on it.

Mr. A...

No one WANTS to be called a VICTIM or to BE a VICTIM, but the fact remains that adultery is a HUGE abuse of the BS...Dr. Harley likens it to RAPE or the DEATH OF A CHILD...It is simply that serious and egregious...

And OH MY DEAR GOD, if your wife CHOSE to have an affair you most certainly would NOT be responsible for ANY part of that horrible CHOICE...That would ALL be on her...I can assure you that if I've learned nothing else since being here, I have learned that, and I can promise you that it is FACT...Take that to the BANK my friend...


Mrs. W
Quote
Just told my W all the reasons why I loved her. Great job, she appreciated it. On a roll so I just added something else that was on my mind, which was OK. Then another thing, plus one more. All true but cumulatively cancelled all the credits I just earned. I suppose I didn't want her to think I was a total doormat so couldn't stop when I was ahead.

MFZ, what was your point of the conversation you had with your W? Was it to tell her those non-doormat things? Or was it to tell her why you loved her? It is possible both needed to be said at some point, but it may have been counterproductive to use a single conversation for both purposes.

Furthermore, it seems to me that certain disputes are best left unaddressed during Plan A. I find it may not be the ideal time to bring up issues other than the most important boundaries.

So at the point you started backsliding, how did you lose the ground you had gained? It is possible you were unintentionally using LB's. Or you may have been asking for something she couldn't give yet (being that the WW spouse does not want to meet the BS's needs). Or it may be that your respectful request that WW not see her A partner were not well met. May I ask what those things were that you felt compelled to tell your spouse?
No redemption then. Bless those who are helping me.
Chobbs,
1. That I didn't want to smother her but thought we ought to do more things together that we now do apart. Of course she wants to keep her space.
2. That I had checked her phone texts and call history (which I knew she found out and now deletes) and had every right in the circumstances. She didn't agree of course.
3. That it wasn't true (in reply to her statement) that I wanted to keep her in spite of what she wanted. If she knew what she wanted she would have gone by now, I just want to give her a better alternative if she wants to choose it.
... Afterwards I thought (1) was getting ahead of where I was in Plan A; perhaps (2) could have been left unsaid, and certainly at that point, since we both knew anyway; and (3) was an understable reaction to her belief that I was trapping her. Perhaps these "extras" weren't altogether wrong, just that they cancelled the credits from my excellent beginning.
WOW Star*fish, this is a mighty strange tact you've chosen to take, but okay, I'll play...I do not care one bit to show any and all of my posts here...I've never claimed that I wasn't a foggy, entitled, horrible WS...No question about that...I was a NIGHTMARE...Again, this forum was a Godsend for us...I don't have a clue what you are hoping to prove here at all...that's really BIZARRE actually...

Ours is NOT an affair marriage...Which ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY DOES MAKE THIS NOT THE SAME ISSUE AT ALL!!! And you know what Star, if someone had asked me to go somewhere else when I first got here, I would have...EVEN in the fogged out mindset that I was in...I do KNOW that about ME...What people saw though was an opportunity to save a LEGITIMATE marriage, and that is what happened...Had I not have chosen to stay in my marriage I would NOT have been welcomed here-rightfully so...As I stated in my previous post, I'm sure that WS posts are tough to read for BSs, but I believe that the BSs here do understand that those are part and parcel of the infidelity nightmare, AND that by helping a WS, they are helping a BS...I don't think that people expect to find folks helping an affair to CONTINUE in this arena though...

Of course I can't know exactly how a BS feels-Way to state the OBVIOUS there Star! All I can do is read, listen and learn...I can tell you that I have GREAT amounts of empathy for the BSs here though-I've read Mr. W's journal from my wayward time period-I've tried as hard as I can to place myself in his shoes-still isn't the same, I KNOW that...I can tell you that I do know what it feels like to be cheated on and it HURTS badly-no, not in my marriage, so no, I can't know that feeling exactly...I came VERY close to being the BS before I was the WS...Had an employee of ours not have said "NO" to Mr. W's proposition, the shoe would have been on the other foot in our marriage-it was a hot mess...I do understand that coming close to being a BS and actually being one is different-close only counts in horseshoes afterall...Really though, none of this is actually relevant to the issue at hand, IMO...As I said, I CAN read and, there ARE BSs here that HAVE stated that they ARE hurt by threads like these being here...

As for the rest of why I think a thread like this is HARMFUL in this venue, please refer to my previous post...

And Star*fish, you really are something else my friend, BECAUSE you are the one that brought ManFromZog to GQII, and you most definitely KNEW exactly what would transpire when he got here...I do question your motives on that, sorry...

Mrs. W
Quote
When does it stop being an affair?
I suppose it is more subjective than I ever thought, but I find peace by believing the A ends when the divorce papers are signed. It makes the most sense to me that obligation ends when the parties are no longer married. Not the pain, but the obligation. To fault that logic is to also doom BSs who cannot avoid D to years of loneliness.

Quote
if your wife CHOSE to have an affair you most certainly would NOT be responsible for ANY part of that horrible CHOICE...That would ALL be on her...
That is your belief. I trust that my neglect of my H contributed to his wayward ways. I'm not taking HIS responsibility, I didn't cause his A, that was his choice. But I succombed to LBers, eroding my DH's love and respect for me. I disregarded his needs. I did not uphold my side of the M. And I find that hardly more respectible, now I understand the damage I'd done. My experience is that, as a BS, it is no less painful being part of the problem, as it is to be completely absolved of responsibility. At least if I am part of the problem, I can fix my side of the street. I can feel compassion for my WH's choices, even if I don't respect them. Even if they would never have been my choices.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 08:04 PM
There is no reason to question SF's motives... they are perfectly clear.
Jesus went across to Mount Olives, but he was soon back in the Temple again. Swarms of people came to him. He sat down and taught them.

The religious scholars and Pharisees led in a woman who had been caught in an act of adultery. They stood her in plain sight of everyone and said, "Teacher, this woman was caught red-handed in the act of adultery. Moses, in the Law, gives orders to stone such persons. What do you say?"

Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger in the dirt. They kept at him, badgering him. He straightened up and said, "The sinless one among you, go first: Throw the stone." Bending down again, he wrote some more in the dirt.

Hearing that, they walked away, one after another, beginning with the oldest. The woman was left alone. Jesus stood up and spoke to her, "Woman, where are they? Does no one condemn you?"

"No one, Master."

"Neither do I, " said Jesus. "Go and sin no more."

John 8: 1-11

***

Seems to me if Jesus could forgo an opportunity to condemn an adulteress who had sinned against the laws of God, then we could have a little charity in our hearts also, folks.

MFZ has confessed his sin and has repented. What more can he do? Frankly, if we choose to condemn him because of his past sins and if we insist there is no possibility of redemption for him, we are also calling into question why one should ever forgive ANY wayward spouse.

MFZ’s sin was not that he married another wayward spouse. God blessed that union with two children and I will not set myself above God’s judgment.

MFZ’s sin was that he became a wayward spouse in the first place. No more, no less. Shall we now condemn EVERY wayward spouse to unending shame and ridicule? Shall we now shun them and deny them a chance to return to the fold?

Tell me, when does the stoning begin, and where will it end?
Posted By: 2long Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/24/07 08:27 PM
Quote
Quote
When does it stop being an affair?
I suppose it is more subjective than I ever thought, but I find peace by believing the A ends when the divorce papers are signed. It makes the most sense to me that obligation ends when the parties are no longer married. Not the pain, but the obligation. To fault that logic is to also doom BSs who cannot avoid D to years of loneliness.

I don't follow this line of thinking at all.

Sounds like if the WS simply pushes a DV through (and I've know of a few BSs here who've had this happen, such that they find themselves DVd within a few months of learning that there was a problem!) so they can have their A, then that's "okay" because they're not obligated 2 their BS?

Legally, I suppose you're correct. Morally, I don't believe this is the case. It seems 2 me that the AM, no matter how long or spiffy it appears 2 be, will always be several moral notches below a mu2ally exclusive commitment between 2 people with all their cards on the table and all their baggage properly dealt with.

...and I'm not religious at all.

-ol' 2long
Mrs. W.

Disclaimer: First off I want to say that the things I'm going to state are things I believe of myself. I expect no one to follow in my way of thinking nor am I judging anyone should they believe differently.

These beliefs are things I acquired during some very life changing seminars. One of the key principles taught in the seminar was that there are NO VICTIMS. Imagine my surprise when the facilitator told a man his brother who was shot by a mugger was not a victim!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Quote
No one WANTS to be called a VICTIM or to BE a VICTIM, but the fact remains that adultery is a HUGE abuse of the BS...Dr. Harley likens it to RAPE or the DEATH OF A CHILD...It is simply that serious and egregious...


Yep I would agree with you there. I have no doubt it is a horrific thing to have to experience.
I know how I felt during a time when I suspected my W may have cheated on me.

Quote
And OH MY DEAR GOD, if your wife CHOSE to have an affair you most certainly would NOT be responsible for ANY part of that horrible CHOICE...That would ALL be on her...I can assure you that if I've learned nothing else since being here, I have learned that, and I can promise you that it is FACT...Take that to the BANK my friend...


Nope, I would not be responsible for any part of her horrible choice. She would be responsible and would have to suffer her own consequences for making that choice.

That STILL doesn't make me a victim. And I still would be somewhat offended that you would label me as such. It makes it looks as if I was powerless. I still had plenty of responsibilities to ensure that she never felt compelled or entitled to make that choice. A lack of action on my part nullifies victimhood for me.

I take full accountability for my part. I've had this conversation with my W. I've had this sit down with her when I asked her about my concerns about possible infidelity. She replied 'No'. I stated to her "Please, if you ever feel that it's come down to that do me the favor of ending things with me first. I promise you that I will do the same for you as I am firmly opposed to having any kind of affair.".

I know I'm getting away from your point. I normally react when I see the word victim. I just felt compelled to say that there is plenty we can do that is within our power to ensure we aren't victims. And if we find ourselves being violated/betrayed we can find reasons why we aren't victims but instead had some responsibility in allowing that to happen to us.

For instance the man shot by the mugger could have done plenty to avoid his unfortunate and horrific death. He could have made sure he wasn't alone in a not so safe place. Or he could have not been in that area at all. Or he could have just given him the wallet instead of calling his bluff about shooting him or ....

This isn't about blame. It's about being accountable and responsible for ourselves. It allows me to be healthier. It allows me to move past these types of incidents and gain more control of what happens to me.

Sitting around venting that I'm the victim doesn't accomplish anything for myself. If anything it creates a sedentary position whereby I feel allowed/entitled to do nothing. Afterall I didn't do anything wrong. Nope. Nothing wrong here. But worrying about not being wrong doesn't get done what I need to get done and that is seeking to find the things that WORK and DON'T WORK for me in my life.

Hopefully I didn't bore you to tears with this. I suppose I'll be labeled an 'odd duck' now. I can live with that ... just not a victim.
Quote
That I didn't want to smother her but thought we ought to do more things together that we now do apart. Of course she wants to keep her space.
Anything in mind? Is she open to your participation in her hobby? Or is there something she might also enjoy (even dining out on a regular basis)? She may be more open to the idea if you have something particular in mind. Now you are negotiating what will tempt her... You don't have to be specific "Honey, we need 15 hours this week!"... You can suggest dinner, or a movie, and be the one keeping tabs on the time spent together without her having to "actively" participate on the principle of it...

Quote
That I had checked her phone texts and call history (which I knew she found out and now deletes - neither of us had mentioned this before) and had every right in the circumstances. She didn't agree of course.
Were you trying to prove contact was still taking place? I'm not sure I understand how this helps your case at this point (I thought the A is out in the open, at least to you).

Quote
That it wasn't true (in reply to her statement) that I wanted to keep her in spite of what she wanted. If she knew what she wanted she would have gone by now, I just want to give her a better alternative if she wants to choose it.
Sorry, MFZ, this was a LB. Yep, this method of communication (assuming that your WW doesn't know what she wants) is going to rile every time (or at least it has, in my experience). And to some point, she's right. She wants her OM, and you. And you don't want that. I don't see where you needed to respond to this fog-speak.

Quote
I don't think my "and another things" were wrong, just that they cancelled the credits from my excellent beginning.
Whose to say you aren't worse off than you started... You've a long road ahead...
I seem to recall an incident in either "His Needs, Her Needs" or "LoveBusters" where Dr. Willard Harley helped a client who was a serial adulterer. This man had an affair and left his first wife for his affair partner. Then he did the same thing to his affair partner/second wife, left her for a third affair partner. The man wanted help ending the cycle of infidelity he was trapped in.

Dr. Harley pointed out that he normally does not help affair partners stay together, but in this case - neither the first nor the second wife wanted anything more to do with him. So rather than leave the man to wallow, Harley counseled him - in order to stop the cycle.

Man From Zog has indicated that his first wife wants nothing more to do with him, and hasn't for 28 years.

When I first read his thread on Emotional Needs, I have to admit I felt little or no sympathy for him. I still don't feel that much sympathy. He started his marriage on a rotten foundation, and it is no surprise the edifice is tumbling down. But the man is clearly looking for help. He has expressed remorse for the affair and for how he treated his ex-wife. And he keeps coming back, looking for advice, keeping his head down, and not responding in an angry or hostile manner to his critics.

He's spent half his life married to this woman, and has two children with her - is he just supposed to slump to the ground and give up? The odds are really stacked against him to begin with.

And what about his WW? If the cycle of infidelity isn't stopped here, she will continue on in this same destructive manner. Zog, at least, professes to have learned from his mistake and says he wouldn't ever do that again - but why wouldn't his WW continue on victimizing other married couples?

Just a few thoughts...
Longhorn...

Jesus said "Go and Sin No More"...How does that fit with a CONTINUING AFFAIR? An Affair Marriage is a continuation of an affair, IME...


Mr. A...

Um, okay, if that works for you, alrighty then...I'm not sure that many BSs would agree with you that they could have prevented their WSs from becoming wayward...That's a mighty tall order and it does assume control over another individual, IMO...And your conversation about leaving before you would ever become wayward...I believe most folks would tell you that they have had similar conversations, I know we sure did...Sadly, the nature of affairs does NOT allow for that...Those are good intentions and all, but you know what they say, "the road to he[i][/i]ll is paved with good intentions"...I'd venture a guess that none of us FWSs ever thought we'd become wayward either-I sure didn't-I was one of those who said "NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS"-You do know that people that say that are the most at risk to become wayward, right?

Mrs. W
MFZ,

You said you didn't want to smother her? Do you really think you're that powerful?

That's not an attack...consider what you really believe. The suggestion to you was to get in 15 hours of UA through RC...which worked great for me and many others here. Where you think up fun stuff (and taking the RC inventory is fun in and of itself, I found), invite her along, and if she doesn't want to...go and do the activity, anyway.

How could that be smothering?

Know how to make someone defensive really fast? Say, "I don't want to make you defensive, but..." Does that ring any bells with you in regards to smothering?

Or are you maybe bringing up the smothering because of one of her statements from the past...that you were clingy, or needy, or smothering?

Best way to NOT smother is to take your focus off her stuff and get centered in your own...take those exposure actions, act calm and when you cannot (when you feel flooded during a discussion), remove yourself for a stated 20 minutes and return. Listen and repeat, for clarification or confirmation. No lecturing. Do O&H driveby statements, not long ones. Learn what's sharing and what's discussing...very healthy to know the difference.

You're in control of you. You have your own power and limits...get to know them really well. Know that you cannot smother...and be aware of what you are really thinking.

Know you are being brave, choosing your own goal and acting for it...just as you can now learn to act from it...your choice. Was, all along...now you see it clearly.

Plan A...being authentic. Not manipulative. Not judging how she feels, responds, what she thinks...which is focusing where you have no control (and never did), hence, no power. Healthy limit. She can't make you, either.

Know you're choosing to be brave...don't panic and look for quick solutions...know that's just your inner child, in a heckuva lot of pain, being wishful. Don't let your inner child decide your life...when you did that before, you divorced a faithful woman and tried to buy off your conscience. Be the great man you are...and take this hard road all the way through. Redemption road waits for you...just increases in difficulty to achieve the longer you wait to walk it.

LA
Ms W,

I really do appreciate your fervency as a marriage advocate, speaking out against affairs, and defending the feelings of BSs who could be hurt. I think most of us here have similar goals. One of the reasons we have ignore functions and moderators is because it would be impossible to get "agreement" from such a diverse group about who should or should not be allowed to post....or how they should post. It's clear from your first post that you've come a very long way. Your objections are clear. You might be right that warning Zog wasn't enough and I do have some regret for sending him here....perhaps....I should have "warned" GQ too? Do you think that would help? Thanks.
2long,

Quote
Sounds like if the WS simply pushes a DV through (and I've know of a few BSs here who've had this happen, such that they find themselves DVd within a few months of learning that there was a problem!) so they can have their A, then that's "okay" because they're not obligated 2 their BS
Granted, I'm a bit more stoic on the whole issue than many others appear to be. But I will remain faithful to my vows until I get a D. At that point, I will not hold my ExH to any higher standard than I would hold myself. I'm not justifying the cause of the D, just that it takes two to be Med. If one wants out, he or she will find a way. I can only control myself.

I concur that the M started in less than ideal conditions. Nonetheless, it is done, and like any M's with a spouse who had an underlying condition (addiction comes to mind), the flaw was there and they Med anyway. No point complaining. It's time to deal with it.
Star

Mrs W....I really don't understand. You arrived here as a wayward spouse. Some of your first posts were about missing the OP terribly and all about your withdrawal....which was probably FAR more painful (excruciating really) for BSs on this board to listen to...than an affair that happened 28 years ago. Why was this board okay for you....but not this poster? I'm not attacking you....I'm very glad you came here and recovered your marriage. I just don't see how Zog's situation is any more painful for BSs to hear about then the withdrawal of a wayward spouse. I hope that Zog can find the same amount of good information that you did.


I think that this is an issue that you either "get" or you don't.

When I arrived as a broken mess, discussion of WS Fog behaviour, interpreted by folks like Orchid and some of the wonderful FWS here actually gave me HOPE. To see that others had been just as immersed in the fog of their entengled class two affairs YET had utterly repented not only of the sin but of the attitude to OP and the affair was very hopeful to me. It helped draw the sting from some horrible experiences for me and I know many others.

Now back then, an affair marriage was absolutely everything I feared and loathed. An affair - the demon that was biting me - even one "legitimised" by time and marriage would have broken my heart - literally - I woud have lost heart to fight the good fight.

Maybe Cosmo is right and an affair is just a sign of incompatabilty ?

So half my issue with supporting affair marriages in the town square of this place is the disheartening of the broken hearted BS, as I was.

My second major issue is with the HOPE such examples give.

If you can be bothered, seek out the older just Jilly threads and SEE the folks who showed up to take comfort from the coo-ing and tutting legitimization of her affair marriage. Spectacles for example - an OW who actively pestered her target WH on these boards and off until he left his wife. She posted she got GREAT comfort from the example of an affair marriage. Pink Paige - another OW took grand solace and hope as did others I will not grant the oxygen of publicity to.

Just as the best posts give hope of a righteous outcome from a terrible infidelity situation IMO, posts supporting and therefore apparently legitimising affair marriages - an outcome that only unrepentant WS and OPs hope for - are surely not right for the town square frequented by folks trying to make their CURRENT legitimate marriage work.

So those are my reasons why I disagree with you about the discussion of affairs and fog being more hurtful than legitimising or even accepting affair marriages in this place. It is VERY MUCH more painful to me than hearing about Fog , and WORSE it encourages WS and OPs in their affairs. How can it NOT encourage WS and OPs to see affair marriages supported on here ?

I think it would be best if such troubled marriages were helped in a quieter place. I don't know if just Jilly is getting help she needs now - I hope so - but she is receiving that where it will be less likely to dishearten vulnerable folks.

I hope I have articulated my feelings in a clear way here.
So...the solution is for MFZ to get divorced and THEN people can forgive him?
b0b,

I've always considered you one of the most articulate posters we have. Disagreement is still possible when people speak articulately from two different perspectives, however. Thank you very much for your post....I appreciate it. I want to respond at length, but I really must go cook dinner and tend to my family.....sorry. I'm not ignoring you or anyone else. If I have some time tommorrow, would you mind if I responded on another thread?
Hi mate

So...the solution is for MFZ to get divorced

I never said or inferred this.

and THEN people can forgive him?

He's done nothing to me, why do I need to forgive him ?

I don't think its helpful to turn this issue (as happens so often) to imply that anyone who has an issue with affair marriages being legitimised nd enabled in "main street" MB is either unforgiving, or a religious dogma nutjob LH.

As I said, I don't need to forgive MFZ or anyone that hasn't sinned against me.

My issue is that those who want to help, should do so but in a place that does not so easily dishearten the broken hearted or encourage the wayward.

No more than that.
The question wasn't directed at you, BP. Sorry it appeared to be, but I hadn’t even seen your post when I wrote that.


********

However, the questions still stands, folks. I’m sure you all understand the parallels I’m trying to draw here.

Tell me, folks, when and how can these sinners be brought back to the fold? What atonement for past transgressions will be enough to allow this person to associate with the good people here on MB?

You know, every church I've ever heard about had a mechanism for sinners to receive redemption and forgiveness. If MB doesn’t have some way to do that, we leave a whole group of people out in the cold with no hope of finding their way back. That’s pretty callous in my books.

You know, I think most of us are Christians on this board. How do Christians abandon their fellow human beings to the darkness in such a cavalier fashion? How will you (not meaning anyone specifically)...as a Christian...rationalize deserting a sinner in his hour of need as you sit in church next Sunday? How will you explain it to your pastor?


********

May I suggest a solution? There are those who feel MFZ has shown remorse for what he’s done and who also think there’s not a whole heck of a lot more he can do. Here’s the rationale.

Folks, he didn’t have to tell us of his infidelity 30 years ago. I don’t see any way it would have ever come up if he hadn’t started his thread with it. That he admitted a sin against his marriage speaks of a renewal of integrity within him, does it not? Aren’t the expressions of guilt and sorrow at what he did pretty good signs of remorse? What more do you want from him?

You know what? Any of the pros out here would have helped him had he been deceitful and no one would have ever been the wiser. This discussion wouldn’t even be taking place.

But he did admit his transgression. I think today he understands quite clearly how evil his abandonment of his marriage was…but there’s not a thing on God’s green earth he can do about what happened 30 years ago. The way I see it, because he was honest with us, MFZ is being chastised and sent away, tucked into a corner where those who have judged him won’t have to be offended by the sight of him. I don’t think that’s right.

If you don’t feel that way, power to you. I respect everyone’s right to have an opinion…but…would someone explain to me how anyone here will be harmed if this man is helped to recover his marriage?

Your opinion is your own but, for God’s sake, why heap more suffering onto anyone's head when you don’t have to? Why not just stay off this thread and ignore it completely. Why can’t the good people here just sit back and let the person who brought MFZ to this community try to organize a rescue?
Affair Marriages being supported on GQII...Wow, what a great example of moral relativism that is...Waywards will LOVE this!!! Gray areas make justifications and rationalizations such a snap!!! Live and Let Live! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Moral relativism is the view that ethical standards, morality, and positions of right or wrong are culturally based and therefore subject to a person's individual choice. We can all decide what is right for ourselves. You decide what's right for you, and I'll decide what's right for me. Moral relativism says, "It's true for me, if I believe it."

www.moral-relativism.com

Not going further into the Christian argument LH...It's the chosen VENUE that is the biggest issue here...SIGH...

DEJA MOO...

Mrs. W
Sorry you feel that way, MrsW. I respect you and your opinions but I don't feel moral relativism is the way to go on this.
MFZ, Chobbs had some good advice. You know, for years I tried to get my then H into counseling and failed. I made a lot of changes in myself and that helped the marriage some. I think I could have gotten B to spend 15 hours with me had I not positioned it as "We shoud spend 15 hours alone." LOL. And I don't think he was having an affair. The problem you're going to run into is that your wife will probably try to spend many hours with the OM at the same time you're trying to get her to spend time with you. Obviously, for a little while at first, the time with you needs to be all fun and games. The more fun for her the better. And ease her into it. Sort of "Oh, by teh way honey, I have an extra ticket for the game tonight, wanna come along?" If she says no, maybe you go with a buddy or something. My idea may be flawed, so think about it.
would someone explain to me how anyone here will be harmed if this man is helped to recover his marriage?


Longhorn, nottrying to be funny here but did you actually READ my post ?

Can you not see how ENCOURAGING such examples are to waywards ?
Can you not see how DISHEARTENING such examples are to BS and vulnerable FWS trying to rebuild a seemingly perma-broken marriage ?

LH, this isn't just my "opinion". It is searchable FACT that active WS ad OPs took ENCOURAGEMENT from supporting affair marriages in mainstreet MB. It is FACT that the vulnerable were hurt.

I am suggesting that he DOES get the help he wants but away from where that very help for one ill-starred marriage can potentially damage many others.

His honesty regarding the origins of his marriage is creditable, BUT that very honesty exposes a consequence of his decisions right there - that attribute right away encourages WS and OPs and disheartens BS and FWS. I have no doubt we help affair marriages every day, but without that sticker on them they do not encourage WS and OPS.

why heap more suffering onto anyone's head when you don’t have to?

This is EXACTLY my motivation ! I do not want to heap more suffering on the many vulnerable BS and FWS on this site, in this public place. It seems your compassion lies with this one man. Can you not find it in your heart to extend that to a solution least hurtful to ALL the broken hearted here ?
Longhorn - You ask about forgiveness?

How about repentance and TURNING AWAY from sin - didn't Jesus tell the adulteress to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

Since when is an affair marriage legitimate at any time? What exactly IS the statute of limitations on an affair?

5 years? 10 years?

Don't worry Longhorn - my pastor was incapable of giving any rational answers to these questions as well.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/25/07 12:22 PM
Quote
I am suggesting that he DOES get the help he wants but away from where that very help for one ill-starred marriage can potentially damage many others.

exactly
Mrs. W,

Quote
I'd venture a guess that none of us FWSs ever thought we'd become wayward either-I sure didn't-I was one of those who said "NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS"-You do know that people that say that are the most at risk to become wayward, right?


I won't speak of these others. They, like you, have made choices based on how they've trained themselves to think. I have adopted other beliefs in hopes they would help me avoid those things that don't work in my life.

I, myself, have said it a million times. "I will never have an EA or PA." I know for a fact that I am not in the group highest at risk to become wayward. It would cause me too much personal, internal damage. It would violate a serious value I have.

I will never feel entitled to have an A because I know, no matter what, I play a role in what happens to me. I will never feel the victim therefore I will never feel entitled to behave like one. Do you see the beauty in that statement? I would never feel trapped nor would I feel the need for vengence. Do you see how this belief I have makes me a stronger, healthier person? Do you see how preaching that belief could help many a person who thought about becoming a WS?

If my M had issues I would most definitely feel sadness and anger and disappointment. And because of that I would seek first to fix what is pushing me away from my M. And if those efforts failed I would, more than likely, pack it in. Try again with someone else once my M had ended. Ended as in legally ended ... divorced.

I wouldn't want to be with someone who would want to have an A with me. It speaks volumes to me about their character and their values. How could I ever trust someone like that? Having trust is EXTREMELY important to me. I'm sure it is to nearly everyone.

On the flip side of the A monster:
My W knows I'm doing everything I can to make our M a strong, happy and healthy one. She knows that I provide a safe place for her to come to to discuss any and all issues concerning our M. That doesn't mean she always comes forth with everything but she knows she has the option should she decide she needs to.

Because of that I would probably leave my W should she decide to have an A. She would have to do some pretty serious convincing to get me to change my mind. I would have a hard time ever trusting her again.

I, myself, wouldn't feel the victim if she decided to stray. I would realize there were reasons why she decided to make that choice (poor as it was). Maybe we just weren't very compatible or mabe our values changed over time or .....

Just because I don't feel victimized doesn't mean she gets a 'get out of jail free card'. That doesn't mean she doesn't suffer the consequences of her actions.

I'll leave you with this. These beliefs that I've acquired have come from a professional counseling service. They are affiliated with a schooling system for troubled teens. One of my nieces who was a straight 'A' student became self-destructive around the time she turned 16. After many attempts to get her help my sister and BIL could no longer trust that they could protect her from herself. They feared she would succeed in her next suicide attempt. They found this school system where she was sent away.

As a part of the schooling the parents are asked to participate in weekend seminars where they learn the same principles the children are learning. That way when the kids return home everyone is on the same page. These seminars are open to the public. My father went in support of his Granddaughter, daughter and son-in-law. He was so impressed by what he learned he paid the way of several of our family members (myself included) and offered to pay for a dozen or so more than that.

This system has changed our family's lives. Those of us that have participated have found new ways to communicate. We've become a less dysfunctional family (trust me there was dysfunction) and we're closer than we've ever been.

For me it was this system that changed my life. From there I learned to became more proactive in dealing with my own issues. There was/is some conflict in my M which is what lead me to MB. And being here has only enhanced what I learned in those seminars.

There's that ... for what it's worth.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/25/07 12:38 PM
your post makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of a girl that I saw recently on TV... she WAS a victim of a shark attack that took her leg... yet she REFUSED to feel like a victim...a distinction of some importance for her life. It makes a lot of sense for some people to see things this way and obviously in your family, the results have been terrific.
Would you mind sharing the name of the system so that I can look into it? Thanks...

MEDC
makeeverydaycnt,

Sure. I actually posted their URL a long time ago in the Other Websites section here at MB.

The direct link to the seminar section is :

Resource Realizations - Seminars

There are two stages to their seminars - 1st is Discovery and 2nd is Focus. I've attended both. I got a lot out of both but the 1st one really opened my eyes. I practiced what I learned from that one for over a year before I went back for the 2nd session. Most people I spoke with go one right after another maybe a month or two apart. Of course many of the participants are parents of the children in the school system and they're trying to complete their education before their child is allowed to come home.

They've changed their site a little I see. It appears they are getting into coaching and teaching individuals to be coaches ... which is cool. I've done 6 months of Life Coaching with an friend here at MB named SymphonyOfLife. That was really helpful as well.
Is it not manipulative to decide which M's meet the criteria for saving via MB's forums? An action based on how we expect others to react?

Isn't that a DJ?
Mr. Alias,

Please be alerted, I responded to your big post above by starting another thread called "what's your plan?". Read it and respond, if you want.


I'd like to take this opportunity to support and state my appreciation for the strong and "wonderous" stance my wife, Mrs. W has taken on this thread (and the other AM thread).

If there was a FWS cereal...I do believe, Mrs. W's picture would be on the box. It's amazing and oddly queer that she endured and stood up for the hurting BS's here on this thread AGAINST FBS's. Questioning her empathy...ridiculous.

I'm proud of her.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - At 2:15 am this morning, Mrs. W's 98 year old Grandmother passed away peacefully in her sleep. 9 Children (one passed away as an infant and one in Vietnam), 14 Grandchildren, a number of Great Grandchildren. All Christians. She read the bible daily and lived a pioneer woman's life in the north Georgia mountains. May she rest in peace.
Quote
Is it not manipulative to decide which M's meet the criteria for saving via MB's forums? An action based on how we expect others to react?

Isn't that a DJ?

Chobbs,

WE "decide" nothing.

Merely stating our opinions...just as you have, wrongly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

BTW, I'm really in to lovebusting affairs AND affair marriages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've been doing it for years here. It's called consistency.

Mr. Wondering
Quote
How about repentance and TURNING AWAY from sin - didn't Jesus tell the adulteress to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

Since when is an affair marriage legitimate at any time? What exactly IS the statute of limitations on an affair?

5 years? 10 years?

Don't worry Longhorn - my pastor was incapable of giving any rational answers to these questions as well.


David and Bathsheba.

Adultery AND murder.

There were consequences for their actions, yet they were forgiven.

David, described as a man after God's heart, continued to live with and conceive more children with Bathsheba. It doesn't seem that God told him to set her aside.

Was God wrong not to have done so?

We humans can often be harsher than God.
At 2:15 am this morning, Mrs. W's 98 year old Grandmother passed away peacefully in her sleep. 9 Children (one passed away as an infant and one in Vietnam), 14 Grandchildren, a number of Great Grandchildren. All Christians. She read the bible daily and lived a pioneer woman's life in the north Georgia mountains. May she rest in peace.

Father God, may we all be so blessed as this lady.

Comfort her bereaved ones Lord, and let them know your peace that surpasses all understanding.
Amen
Quote
It's called consistency.
Have I implied you are inconsistant? Or are you implying I am inconsistant? I'm not sure what you are trying to establish. Perhaps I would better understand if you could answer this: do you believe there are acceptible reasons for D?

If you concur that D can be an answer for dangerous or irreconcilable differences, is remarriage acceptible?

If remarriage is acceptible, do we have the right to choose whom a person other than ourselves marry? Anyone other than an A partner? Is there a distinction between marriageability of EA and PA partners? What about on rebound from the A partner? If he does not marry the A partner, but cheats on her, can he marry the new OW? Personally, there's too many qualifications to consider. I don't want the responsibility to decide what is unacceptible behavior after a D.

I'm not saying it is always right, just that it is. What purpose does it serve to break up an existing AM? Would you release these people back into the dating pool to fail again, which seems a certainty without having learned the skills they lacked in the first M(s)?

I think it is wonderfully idealistic, but falls short of reality, to want all M's to start with two healthy individuals. Heck, my own M wasn't healthy b/c my DH has an addictive personality, but I didn't know that at the time. I married based on what I knew (and lordy, lordy, what does that say about me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ). Are you not friends with anyone who has remarried? And how does one decide who is "right" in the cause of a D and who is "wrong"? How can we assume we have all the information to determine the Truth. For example, before MB, my DH didn't consider EA's as something wrong. If we Ded because he had an EA, in his mind he did nothing wrong. By this standard, he could remarry, have marital problems, and come here for advice with a clear conscience. It simply wouldn't occur to him to write how the "AM" started. And he would never get the flack MFZ does b/c he would not see truth the way we define it via MB principles.

So where does that leave us? Where does that leave R/H? I really hate being lied to, but jiminey christmas!, this debate on marital legitimacy makes it unrewarding to be honest! The fact that MFZ is taking his lumps with grace tells me so much about his character. This was someone's WS, and now he's someone's BS. According to the way he behaves now, I don't see a resemblence to the entitled, selfish being he once was with regards to M.

Quote
Merely stating our opinions...just as you have, wrongly.
*gasp* Me wrong, NEVER! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Please accept my condolences for Mrs W's grandmother.
I surely am disappointed at some MB folks who I have held in high regard for a long time.


(Edited to correct grammar)
Me too , Longhorn. Me too.
MFZ,

How are you doing? I don't think I've seen you post in about three pages...of course, I don't know what that is in dog years.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA
I don't defend what I did 30 (not 28) years ago. If we'd had MB to help back then I might have understood the crucial importance of NC for a start.
When I've had a chance to absorb all your comments since my last post I will respond. Thank you again.
I don't care what you did. I care only what effect such marriages as your provably have on the vulnerable on these boards when aired on GQ2.

Knowing that having affair marriges supported in this place encourages many WS and disheartens many BS and FWS would you be happy being supported by smart folks in a quieter place on MB ?
Hi LA, I'm doing OK. I thought fixing some things around the house yesterday would give me more credits than being hunched over my PC so took a bit of a break. Also I am +6 hours so probably a lot got posted whilst I slept.
On the stormy debate of if/where to post I might point out that my story does not seem that encouraging to WS/OPs - aren't I getting my just deserts?
As to whether I learned my lesson - a WS sometimes gets a healthy dose of aversion therapy from what they did.
LA: the "smothering" was because she doesn't want me to gate-crash the activities she does without me (she has a lot of these, and being more naturally athletic/coordinated I tend to quickly outdo her in the active ones). We're not in recovery so I was way ahead of plan - guess it takes practice to learn patience.
Chobbs and Greengables - feedback like yours is so helpful. Thanks all for posting, whatever "side" you're on.
If Zog goes back to the emotional needs forum and refrains from posting his situation in GQ will those that feel he shouldn't post in GQ let those who choose to try to help him, try to help him over there?

If that is the case... that he will be allowed to try to work on himself and his marriage over in EN's forum without the constant debate over whether or not his posting is causing real harm to BS... then I would encourage Zog to go back to EN forum. If he is going to be hounded over there too... then none of the arguments about his being here in the trenches of GQland make sense.

Zog... there are a lot of folks here who have a lot of wisdom. Some of those with experience will choose to help you and some won't. I believe that if the consensus is that you will be allowed to post over in EN forum... then it might be more helpful for you because then the focus can move back to your issues and away from the debate over whether or not you have a right to post here.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/26/07 05:51 PM
Quote
If Zog goes back to the emotional needs forum and refrains from posting his situation in GQ will those that feel he shouldn't post in GQ let those who choose to try to help him, try to help him over there?


you asked, I will answer. So long as Zog is in a place here where his needs can be met and not risk offending others, I would be fine with that. I gave you a hard time when you posted here on GQ JJ... but I have not had ONE negative word to say when you took your talk to a more private area.

Thanks for your input.
MFZ, you are in no danger of being banned from GQII, unless a decision is changed among the moderators of this board. You have not violated any TOS, and you have maintained your dignity while taking some awfully vitriolic hits. You have responded to critics respectfully. These things have been noticed and your status here is not in jeopardy because of your adherence to those standards. Sir, my best advice at the moment is for you to please make sure you continue doing those things.

I’ve been asked to stay with you and help you with advice, as best I can provide it. I’ll gladly do so, working with Star*fish and everyone else who chimes in. However, MFZ, there will be those who will never change their opinions of you, no matter what. I know you’re aware you can continue to read their commentary, and (in a dignified, respectful fashion) reply, if you want to, but it may become counter-productive at some point. If that happens you can turn off comments from selective users by clicking on their screen name and finding the hypertext, “Ignore this user,” near the bottom of the text box. Once you click on that, the user’s posts to you will not appear on your screen.

MFZ, if I may speak plainly, I abhor what you did in your first marriage. I think it was obscene and I will always feel that way.

Nevertheless, I see repentance in your words. I see some acknowledged guilt there too. I think you made some gestures at making amends but I’m not sure how far that went. If you choose to make a better record in these matters, your thread is yours to do so.

You have a choice to make. You can continue to post here on GQII and no one will stop you. I believe Star brought you over here so you could get a larger number of advisors, and more variety in the advice being given you. The EN forum has quite a few less viewers than GQII does. However, Star’s purpose may have been served by the recent debate here in GQII. If you want to return to EN, I’ll follow you over and I hope some of the pros out here will also. If you want to stay in GQII to pick up advice from greater numbers of advisors, that too is fine. It’s your decision to make. Just let us know what it is, okay?
MFZ,

Great choice on doing the in real life stuff...don't know about credits...were these acts of love which filled you up a bit in doing them?

Thanks for the reminder of the time lag, as well.

Gotta question for you...are you seeing where a wayward mindset affected how you approached your marriage and may have contributed to what has transpired in your marriage?

LA
Thank you Longhorn. I came here for help and not to offend people. I have received good advice AND clearly offended some. I'm sorry the latter feel that way as my story is clearly no endorsement of AMs; however I will not turn off their comments because if the balance of offence taken is too great it may be best to move. I will stay here for now - thank you.
On your other point, all I could do for my XW was to give her all the assets I owned which, even as a young man, were not bad. We had an NC agreement after that which I have respected but I do know she's OK.
Okay, here it shall be then.

MFZ, what I get from your early posts on this thread is a sense you don't have much idea of what to do next in your situation. May I suggest you clink on the link in my signature block to the thread about organizing a marital recovery? I think it'll help get you grounded and we can work from there.
MFZ - I'll post to you wherever. Just let us know. What happened 28 years ago is over and done. I've forgotten it.
Quote
p.s. - At 2:15 am this morning, Mrs. W's 98 year old Grandmother passed away peacefully in her sleep. 9 Children (one passed away as an infant and one in Vietnam), 14 Grandchildren, a number of Great Grandchildren. All Christians. She read the bible daily and lived a pioneer woman's life in the north Georgia mountains. May she rest in peace.


My sincerest condolencenes to you and Mrs.W on the homegoing of Mrs. W's grandmother. Loss of a loved one is always felt deeply. And we thank God that we will yet again be reunited, never to experience death and separation again. May God make His loving presence known to all in the family and all who knew and loved "Grandma."

God bless.
LA: Exercise and doing things always help improve my mood but apart from taking her priorities into account before deciding which tasks to do I’m not sure what I was thinking. As to mindset, the only pattern I am aware of is a fear of challenging spouse's behaviour that made me feel unloved; I guess that can pre-dispose one to waywardness.
Longhorn: Read your links again thanks. It is now 2 months since discovery and I have been getting hugs at night, when parting and a few other times, without always having to initiate (50-50ish). This seems to confirm she doesn’t want to leave although the fog remains.
I am struggling with the practicalities of disclosure, mainly that I’d prefer to tell my children together and that’s hard to arrange. Also I feel that to tell them without warning WW would break an understanding - though she has not pleaded that I don’t tell them, or anyone. I even discussed what I might tell them ages ago, though I would toughen the message now. Any thoughts before I take the plunge?
MFZ,

I haven't read all the responses, but I'm curious, what have you learned about yourself through all of this? Even looking back to your first marriage and the affair that led to your current marriage..do you remember those strong feelings and how difficult they were to fight against, when she was meeting your needs and your then wife wasn't?

What do you think your then wife could have done to win you back? Think about this and try to be as honest with yourself
as you can..and then looking at your current marriage, what does your wife say it would take?

In that, she wants BOTH relationships...you apparently meet some of her needs, so what needs IS the other man meeting that you are not? And how could you go about meeting those needs for her so that she doesn't feel a need for OM to meet them? (one of them would be her hobby, and short of her giving up the hobby, the only other option would be for YOU to become involved with it along side her.) So are you willing to do that, even knowing OM would still be involved?
Posted By: Orchid Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 01:41 PM
Hi MFZ,

I haven't read the entire thread but must say from the last few pages, I can gather there's been a lot of controversy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's my deal.... you were a Ws but no longer are one. You married the OW? Now you are experiencing life as a BS? Same sitch, different characters and totally different perspective.

You are here because you are a BS, right?

Ok, if so we can help. If you have checked your WS attitude by the door, then we can certainly help. WS and OPs have another website many post at and gotta say, it is quite an evil place to visit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Back to your sitch.... as a BS you've got options. 1st order of business is to get you grounded (learn about plans A & B), get a personal support group (including your children and MC/IC - I recommend you call Jennifer C from MB for some phone counseling - she can get you a plan), secure your finances (we ain't getting younger - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), expose, etc.

Why tell your children? Because often your children already have an idea. Keeping them informed is for their safety and so they can have your trust. You'd be surprised what the love from a child can do. Don't expect it to end the A but it will punch a whallop that can scar any A for life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Make your children a part of your personal support group and you be a part of theirs. Let your support group that you will hear their POVs and ask they respect your decision because you are not able to tell all to all.

Don't worry much about 'love busters'. When a WS is in full bloom, everything a BS does is 'considered a LB in fog. Btw, the WS usually has a twisted version of love anyway....so just make decisions and plan your actions on what is best for you and your family.

Go read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs (both by Harley). Then read Love must be tough (Dobson)

Don't make demands of the WS (expect in a few vital places) but you identify then implement your boundaries (this is usually hard t/d but necessary. Those boundaries s/b a short but solid list.

Hope this helps.
L.
Zog:

I wanted to ask this earlier in your thread, before it got completly out of control.

Note to Moderator: Can we just post the last 25 pages of JustJilly's recent thread here and then move on?

Back to Zog:

You do not want to expose to your children?

Do they know the full circumstances of the start of your M?

Would it hit to close to home if you were to explain those circumstances as well?

AND if they do know, I commend you for that.

LG
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 02:53 PM
Zog,

Do you want to save your M or do you just want to appease your WW? If the latter, continue on your course, and I assure you that you will lose your M. If you MAN UP, I can’t assure you that you will save the M, but you will have a good chance of doing so.

Plan A consist of being the best you can be while putting as much pressure as you can on the A. Your best tool to do this is exposure. And your best exposure targets right now are your children. Telling your children will put much more pressure on your WW than anything else you can do. But yet you are justifying and rationalizing why you can’t do it, while wasting what would give you the best shot at ending the A. Your M can survive you WW’s temporary anger, but it cannot survive the A.

In case you have not noticed this is WAR. It is neither for the timid nor for the weak. This is not to say that you will not feel fear. You will. But whether you let you fear dictates what you do will determine how this ends up.

In short, Zog, I think you should take some time to decide whether you plan to grow a pair to deal with your sitch or whether you plan to continue on Plan APPEASEMENT. I know you can do better than this. Most BS are very scared at first when they come here on MB, but overtime they usually find the inner strength to do what they need to do. I hope you experience the same soon.

God Bless

P.s. Don’t you dare leave GQII. Here you will get help from many of the best on MB who will assist you in your situation. In case you might not know the following posters are very good at this: Longhorn, Believer, Orchid, Star*fish, LovingAnyway, Ark, Lousygolfer and some of the others. You should consider yourself lucky that some of these heavy hitters have taken the time to help you here. I don’t know much about the EN forum, but I know you will get great advice if you stay on GQII. Furthermore, if you stay here I think you will get some good lessons on staying strong in the face of obstacles. For these reasons, I believe it would be advantageous for you to stay here.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 02:54 PM
Ms. W,

You have my condolences.
Folks here are right about exposure to your son and daughter. That will put some pressure on your wife to end the affair.
Lately we have had a couple of posters on MB GQII seeking help for their marriages that were the result of an affair. Each time the poster reveals this information, the thread takes on a life of it's own. Some members do NOT want to allow affair based marriages to post on GQII where so many Newbies may be reading and/or lurking.

This Marriage Builders site was created, funded, and owned by Dr Harley. Dr Harley has written many books, conducted many lectures, has a talk radio program and offers phone counseling and weekend seminars for those in need of his expertise. He has offered the Marriage Builders web site as a way for us to discuss our marital problems and apply his concepts and principles to solve them. We, as MB members, are HIS GUESTS.

To MY knowledge Dr Harley does not discriminate against anyone seeking help saving their marriage. If someone calls his radio program and wants help saving a marriage that was the result of an affair, he does not ask them to wait til the end of the program and caution other listeners to tune out. If an affair resulted in a pregnancy, either by the husband & OW or the wife & OM, he does not ask the H & W to sit in the rear of the room at the seminar. If the marriage is bi-racial, May-Dec, or a same-sex union he does not ask them to take only the left-over open counseling appts at 3am. All are treated equally.

There is nothing about an affair that is NOT hurtful. To read about a marriage that was not saved and resulted in a divorce is hurtful. To learn about the complications added when an "other child" occurs is very painful. To witness the struggle of a BS or FWS trying unsuccessfully to save their marriage is painful & frustrating. Once on this rollercoaster, we can't escape the hurt. But we do not "forbid" these posters to post in certain forums. They are free to post & seek help wherever they choose. We can "suggest" forums that may better suit their needs but we can not and do not bannish them to a place we have deemed "more appropriate" or less hurtful to other posters.

If you feel you can help these posters..PLEASE do so!! And if you feel their situation is so inappropriate you can not in good conscience help them,,PLEASE SKIP THAT POST and move on. Your condemnation is not necessary.
thank you justuss PERFECTLY WELL SAID AND MUCH NEEDED. now hopefully we can all move on to what is important.

mlhb

and i said the same thing as you are now.. if it bothers you DON'T READ IT. pretty simple.
Zog,

I strongly SUGGEST you post elsewhere.

I haven't seen it suggested yet, but, perhaps the best board for you if you choose not to leave MB altogether, might be the divorce/divorcing board. There you can get all the advice you need to put an end to your adulterous marriage.

Dr. Harley does not advise saving ALL marriages. I was just at his seminar last weekend and he stated that not all marriages are savable. I don't see how Plan A/Plan B will work for you at all. A marriage built on fantasy and passion, sick and not built on commitment is impossible to save. Your wife has a NEW fantasy. One premise of Plan A/Plan B is to break the fantasy up from the inside. That won't work for you. Your wife, moreso than any other WS here, TRUSTS her fantasy. It worked for her last time for 28 years...why not this time.

Maybe some sort of Plan Fantasy or Plan passion will work for you. Maybe you can manipulate her back with lies and deceipt. That worked for ya last time.

Further, as far as talking to the children I think you should. They likely have a small notion that dad was married before but they likely have no idea that it was the biggest mistake of your life or that their FOO issues greatly revolve around the fact that you and Mrs. Zog were the culmination of a sick adulterous affair. They likely have no clue that their model of commitment and fidelity were in fact not so. Your kids have learned selfishness and happiness at all costs. There were raised by two disfunctional parents that continued their selfish faux happy fake relationship for years right in front of them. I bet they likely will KNOW exactly what you are talking about IF you come to them with humility and express such failings. If you want to break the cycle tell them just how much you have learned here at MB and just how wrong you and mom were. Without such acknowledgement, they will, as you both did, drift through life believing happiness is commitment, life just happens to them and commitments are contingent. They will likely have no idea where they learned this until the day they too become a BS or a FWS that really gets their an analyzes this issues. Protect your children.

Again...just a suggestion. GQII is NOT going to work for you even if you choose to stick around. Your marital issues are beyond the experience and capabilities of all of us here. IMO, continuing to post here is the exact same as calling your first wife, your God given wife and asking her for help busting up your wife's affair and recovering your marriage. Give her a call and leave us alone. Please.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - You may think Starfish is your friend here...but she has her own agenda. She literally fed you to us here on GQII KNOWING exactly what would transpire. I can only guess at her agenda but I think it has something to do with the tone and niceness of the GQII board (which she objects to) How ironic. Feed you to us...to prove her point, hope did you enjoyed it? You could have posted for years on Emotional Needs and none of us would have bothered you ONE BIT. Now on Emotional Needs she claims it was likely a mistake..."mistake", my butt. You were her lab rat.
MFZ, you're getting some pointers here from some of the folks who have helped hundreds of betrayed spouses recover their marriages. Listen to them, pardner.

One of the best ways to combat what has happened your life is to learn all you can about it. Orchid gave you a great reading list and I urge you to buy those books and study them...don't just read them...study them well. If you have questions, ask them, okay?

Friend, recovering your marriage is not going to be an easy thing to do. They never are, but a long-term affair (LTA) is especially rough. Additionally, your spouse seems to have no particular embarrassment about you having discovered it. That may change as you begin to implement Plan A, which includes exposing the adultery to people who can influence her.

I always think of betrayed spouses who try to recover their marriages as some of the most strong-minded individuals in the world. They have to be, because going through this he11 is probably the toughest thing anyone will ever be called upon to endure. Are you ready for the fight, MFZ? It’s going to be a brawl. Are you prepared to get back to your feet after having been knocked flat? Are you ready for a long, enervating struggle, friend?

If you are, we’ll be here for you, okay?

When you’re ready, MFZ, tell us what your plan is.


Off Topic: My screen view on this thread, and this thread only, is corrupted. The text lines extend out forever to the right. Anyone know why that is and what's the fix?
Maybe Mr Wondering but your opinion is exactly the opposite of several others, not just star*fish, who are apparently experienced and they have suggested you just stay away from this thread. Seems easy enough.
I'll respond to others later but thanks for your inputs.
Star*fish is an excellent source of how to save your marriage. She knows her stuff. You can't go wrong by following her advice.

Have you tried spending time with your wife this weekend?
Quote
Maybe Mr Wondering but your opinion is exactly the opposite of several others, not just star*fish, who are apparently experienced and they have suggested you just stay away from this thread. Seems easy enough.
I'll respond to others later but thanks for your inputs.

I'll post where I like, thank you very much. I'm just as entitled as you and shocked you would suggest otherwise. We are ALL guests here.

BTW, I didn't see anyone give the opposite opinion. I didn't see anyone suggest that you shouldn't call your first wife and get her help. I think it's a good plan. She's a BS and she knows you well. She'd have some good input and experience to offer you away from GQII. You paid her a lot of money so I'm sure she's doesn't have any hard feelings anymore...it's been 28 years after all.

Maybe I missed it and just a suggestion.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 08:33 PM
From Justuss:

Quote
If you feel you can help these posters..PLEASE do so!! And if you feel their situation is so inappropriate you can not in good conscience help them, PLEASE SKIP THAT POST and move on. Your condemnation is not necessary.
I AM helping.

and

Justuss specifically said we could suggest the poster go elsewhere.

The divorce/divorcing board is perfect for him

Dr. Harley advise us that AFFAIRS END.

On average it's 2 years...so admitedly, Zog's 28 year old affair is way out of the curve. But they nearly ALL end.

He could get advice about finding an attorney and taking his wife to the cleaners. He gave his first wife EVERYTHING (how romantic...giving up everything for his assoulmate), so this time....he should TAKE everything he can get his hands on.

If it doesn't happen NOW...it will later, anyway so the advice will be useful, someday.

Besides, how's Zog gonna manage recovery. The 6 - 8 month mark when the adreneline wears off. Can you say "revenge affair". He'll likely jump on the first woman that smiles at him. Why not...he's lived a fantasy for 28 years...and his crackhouse is out of crack. Maybe they've got some next door. I just HOPE she isn't married.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 08:59 PM

From Justuss:

Quote
We can "suggest" forums that may better suit their needs but we can not and do not bannish them to a place we have deemed "more appropriate" or less hurtful to other posters.

Ok, you’ve made your suggestion, but I don’t see why you and like-minded others keeping on telling Zog to leave GQII if not to banish him from this forum. I do not see why you and others insist on staying on this thread if you just want to make mere “suggestions.” You gave your advice to Zog in your effort to “help” him, he declined, and now it may just be time to SKIP his post, as Justuss said.

Lastly, I am not sure what part of “condemnation is not necessary”, is not clear.
UVA

I am giving advice and not condeming him. Do you deny the statistics that Dr. Harley clearly states...nearly all affair marriages end in divorce? I am preparing him for the inevitable.

In fact, I'd advise Zog to strategize his financial situation. Transfer assets to cash. Spend some of their savings NOW, before the inevitable divorce, on counseling for his children so they don't repeat their parents illicit behavior and lifestyle. Maybe he could head over to the "infidelity and it's effects on children" Board and see exactly what he's done, or should I say still doing to his kids.

Another SUGGESTION, maybe you should head over to the "Woman's Bible Study" Board. They could use you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering
I have been polite in the face of some quite aggressive postings. Mr W, you tell me there is zero chance of saving my marriage and direct me to the Divorce forum. You express your "help" in a manner that looks like pure viciousness - I will not respond to you again.
To others, I am considering your inputs but am rather drained so will reply later. I will be telling my children as soon as I can.
Hang in there, MFZ. This too shall pass.
Quote
I have been polite in the face of some quite aggressive postings. Mr W, you tell me there is zero chance of saving my marriage and direct me to the Divorce forum. You express your "help" in a manner that looks like pure viciousness - I will not respond to you again.
To others, I am considering your inputs but am rather drained so will reply later. I will be telling my children as soon as I can.

Strange...I thought I was being polite too.

Stating facts, stating truths, alone, ain't vicious.

You do, IMO, have zero chance of saving your adulterous marriage and you can Plan A and Plan B till you are blue in the face and in the end...that won't save your marriage. It's just as doomed now as it was 28 years ago.

Just an opinion.

Before you tell your children...I still strongly advise you spend some time reading the article and then posting on the "Infidelity and It's Effects on Children" Board. At the very least...be certain not to screw up your kids any further.

Mr. Wondering
mr. wondering, maybe you need to go back and re-read what justuss posted. we are all GUESTS here of mr. harleys and she said basically if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all. she also said if the thread bothers you DON'T READ IT OR POST ON IT. you are completely going against what a moderator has asked.

i am a betrayed spouse, betrayed more times by my ex than i can count. my father married his affair partner and my sister is an oc. and yet, imagine this, i am NOT offended by zog being here trying to recover his marriage. zog knows he made a terrible mistake 30 years ago. he is aware of this! thank god he did not have children in his first marriage who had to be damaged by what he did. but it is done and over with. happend freakin 30 years ago! he is trying to right the wrong that he did by ending the cycle of infidelity and by MAKING THIS MARRIAGE WORK. maybe it will work out, maybe it won't. but if dr harley would be willing to work with zog and he has no issue with him being here and if we all respect harley and his views so much than i think zog should stay right here.

IF HE BOTHERS YOU AND HIS POSTS BOTHER YOU AND HIS MARRIAGE BOTHERS YOU THAN DON'T READ IT!! how many times does that have to be said? Justuss said not to be nasty to others on the board. well, your last few posts are pretty nasty.

i am very surprised at you mr. wondering, i usually find your posts to be so uplifting and helpful. this is not helpful at all.

mlhb
Quote
mr. wondering, maybe you need to go back and re-read what justuss posted. we are all GUESTS here of mr. harleys and she said basically if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all. she also said if the thread bothers you DON'T READ IT OR POST ON IT. you are completely going against what a moderator has asked.

mlhb, does this not also apply to you? I don't think what you said to MrW was very "nice" and would suggest that you take your OWN advice to "not read it" if it bothers you. MrW has as much right to express his opinion as you do. If you don't like it, then don't read it.
trust me, after what i have been reading by him i WON'T be reading any more of his posts on this particular thread. i'll simply address zog.

mlhb
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:04 PM
Quote
Another SUGGESTION, maybe you should head over to the "Woman's Bible Study" Board. They could use you.

You got me here.:D

I am not denying Harley’s statistics nor am I supporting AMs in their usual manifestation. But as a lawyer, you know that even though rules are rules, the outcome of case may very well depend on the particular facts of the case. That is to say, a court or a legislature (or a relevant administrative body) may make exceptions to a law and distinguish a particular fact pattern or policy consideration from the way in which the law is usually applied. I do not think that Zog’s situation is the usual AM and the particular facts of his sitch, IMO, warrant a different approach.

I will not rehash my argument on this point here. You can see my earlier posts on this thread if you want to pursue this further. It seems to me that the main issue here is really whether reasonable minds can disagree on whether someone in Zog’s situation should get help here on MB, GQII, or whatever forum you like. I do think reasonable minds can disagree here because the underlying issue is a close call. I THINK and BELIEVE that Zog can redeem himself and should try to save his marriage even though the way the M started is abominable to ALL of us. But I do not KNOW this to be true. That is, I do see how one can see this issue differently. I do see good arguments for the other side. I just, for now anyways, lean towards my current position.

The fact that many respected members of MB disagree on this issue just shows that this is not a clear cut issue. This is my whole point. If this is not such a clear cut issue—that is, where each side could be wrong (not at the same time, of course)—I am not sure why one group would want to impose their version of the truth on everyone else who may see it otherwise. Why do you want to insist that Zog post elsewhere, where you position is clearly not embraced by all and clearly not necessarily true?

(Please do not confuse this with moral relativism; I know you are smart enough not to make such a baseless inference from the above.)

Side note: It’s funny that you would give Zog some quick advice but seem to be against getting the same advice in a more protracted fashion here on GQII. This is really inconsistent.

The point Justuss is making, which I wholeheartedly agree with, is that if you don’t want to help people like Zog, don’t. But it is not up to you dictate which forum he can get help from. I think that TA has it right in BP’s thread. We should not try to impose our views on others or dictate where people can get help for various issues, especially, I might add, where the issues are close ones.

Respectfully,

UVA
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:06 PM
Mr. W,

You know that I like you. Please do not take this to a needless level of acrimony towards Zog. You are a better person than this.

Your points have been made and I am sure they have been heard.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:13 PM
MFZ,

I am proud of your decision to tell your children.
Very clearly

I am not dictating

never have

I have merely suggested

Mrs. W was, from the get go, merely suggesting.

I like freedom of speech

I think you and mlbh have both misinterpreted Justuss.

Zog is not banished from GQII (which I never asked for him to be)
re
I am not banished from GQII.

You seem to infer that I'm condemning Zog. Even if that were the case, which it's not, "Condemnation is not necessary" is a whole lot different from "condemnation will not be allowed or tolerated".

No worries...I forgive you both.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: Orchid Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:22 PM
Oh come on people. Let's keep this simple....not emotional.
Zog (sorry for the previous mispost) is having a hard time. Compounded with previous A & WS issues will always make this harder.

So for those that can differentiate and can help.....go ahead. Those who can't don't.

Not belittling those that can't. Just need to recognize what is not in our abilities and move forward. There have been situations on MB that I know I am not good at posting on and some a have major disagreements....so for those, I generally don't post.

The point is that our POV is a right...freedom of speech, etc.... ok but just because it is a right doesn't always make it right for specific situations. It is ok NOT to post. We don't always HAVE to be heard.

'nuff said. Gonna go shopping to get my aunty her new phone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Aloha,
L.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:25 PM
When does suggestion becomes an attempt to control or banish, as in this case? If you merely intended to give "suggestions", why not stop after it has been rebuffed several times?
MrW, damning with faint praise, aka gaslighting, is a tactic we all recognize. Please stop. You're a clever man, sir...clever enough to show us any flavor of adverse opinion while seeming to extend the hand of forgiveness to those who disagree.

Sir, the decision has been made by the owners here. You are fuly aware of the spirit of that decision, as well as the written word. Please do not stoop to speaking so bitterly. It doesn't become you in the least.
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:35 PM
I am not saying that either Zog or you are banished from GQII. You are trying to banish Zog constructively from GQII, in the legal sense of “constructively.” You and others insist over and over that Zog should leave GQII, even though he consistently rejects your entreaties. If this is not attempting to banish him from GQII I am not sure what is. Sure you can play on the word “banish”, possibly arguing that you do not have the power to do so given that you are not a moderator of this site. That is why I use the term ‘constructively’ above to capture the essence of what you’ve been trying to do.

No worries…I forgive u 2. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I am NOT insisting.

Once again...it's only a suggestion.

And check your facts, Longhorn

Justuss did NOT make Zog a protected member of this community and Justuss is NOT Dr. Harley. She/they/he is a valued volunteer trying to do her/his best in light of all the obnoxious emails I'm sure have been sent his/her way. I happen to believe Dr. Harley, Steve Harley and Justuss like the boards just as they are with very little moderation.

What's next...only WS's can post to WS's. If you stop critiquing my posts, I'll stop critiquing yours. OK.

Besides, Zog needs GOOD ADVICE and even if he doesn't like my advice (prepare for the inevitable divorce) doesn't mean he has the right to banish me from his thread...NOR DO YOU have such right.

My advice is DEAD ON.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 10:52 PM
If it’s only a “suggestion”, why do you keep repeating it ad infinitum?
Mr.Wondering, I know the facts. But thank you for gaslighting me again. Are you suggesting I can't understand them? That's manipulative, my friend. I don't think that just because we disagree on this is a good reason for you to engage in unfair tactics.

The facts are JustUss passes on information to us she gains from the owners of this website. What she tells us is from Dr. Harley. QED

We all know what your opinion is now, sir. MFZ sees your "advice" as unhelpful. I suspect he will stop seeing your words as he puts you on "ignore." If he announces that, your ability to "help" him will disappear. Will you stop posting to this thread when he puts you on ignore?
Quote
If it’s only a “suggestion”, why do you keep repeating it ad infinitum?

I didn't repeat my suggestion in my last post.

I merely repeated that it WAS a suggestion.

Why do you guys keep implying that I'm not allowed to post on this thread??? Even if I wanted to repeat myself again and again...why couldn't I?

Zog needs more help than either of you can offer. You guys have relied on his limited statements on this thread about his past and bought them (despite the fact that he's a foggy still wayward lying adulterer). He's repentent??? Sure he is. Then why is he still posting here??? Justjilly CHOOSE to move, why not him??? I don't trust active WS's. Waywards lie and TAKE. I hate to see you guys get used, but that's your choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering
Quote
We all know what your opinion is now, sir. MFZ sees your "advice" as unhelpful. I suspect he will stop seeing your words as he puts you on "ignore." If he announces that, your ability to "help" him will disappear. Will you stop posting to this thread when he puts you on ignore?

Absolute not.

I post for me.

and

others that are not ignoring me

and

lurkers and others who stumble upon this website seeking good advice in similiar situations.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 11:16 PM
This is getting ridiculous. Mr. W and LH helped create one of the best links ever as resource for the people here at MB. They have been invaluable to many on MB. And now they are at each other’s throats. I find this to be very sad.

Guys, cool down, this disagreement shall pass. I like and respect both of you. You know better than to let this deteriorate to this point.
You're right, UVA.
Quote
This is getting ridiculous. Mr. W and LH helped create one of the best links as resource for the people here at MB. They have been invaluable to many on MB. And now they are at each other’s throats. I find this to be very sad.

Guys, cool down, this disagreement shall pass. I like and respect both of you. You know better than to let this deteriorate to this point.

I have no problem with Longhorn.

This isn't personal to me. Though I was disturbed to see Longhorn send Zog to the thread we worked so hard on together when I knew that it was pointless and damaging to Zog. It was instilling hope where there really isn't any.

If Zog and/or Longhorn want to ignore me, that's their call.

I'd never do the same, nor would I demand or request someone to ignore them.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 11:30 PM
Mr. W,

Zog may or may not be telling us all the pertinent facts. But the same applies for everyone who posts here. So to say that we do not know all the facts is to merely state the obvious. We can only go on by what has been presented to us and what appears to be the case.

It is true that we chose to help Zog. We are just asking you and others like-minded individuals to respect our choice. Instead of focusing on Zog, most of the posts onthis thread have to do with the meta-question of whether Zog has a place on GQII or not. I think this is a great disservice to Zog. Some of us think that Zog should be helped, while others do not. Those of us who think he should be helped respectfully request that you allow us to help him without unnecessary interference and condemnation.

Yes, we’ll assume that your comments were meant to be constructive and helpful to Zog. Ok now that Zog has heard you, will you drop the subject?
Posted By: UVA Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/27/07 11:31 PM
Mr W.,

I am sure LH will not ignore you. From his last post, it is clear that he still respects you. I am glad to see this development from both of you. Many people who come to MB will continually be grateful to both of you for your contributions on MB.
Guys,

Don't you feel it's a bit hypocritical for Zog not to let his wife go and pursue her happiness.

He did. It worked for him for 28 years.

They had a nice run.

Nobody can seriously tell him her feelings for OM aren't as real as her feelings for him.

If you love her and want her to be happy Zog, let her go. Repair yourself individually. Don't have a revenge affair and help your children learn and cope with this situation so they don't, predictable, repeat the cycle.

Damage control.

Mr. Wondering
zog

i just want to do this one post to you than i am going to bow out of this thread. i applaud you for actually reading all of it and i hope you can sort through the nonsense of it and get to the posts that are actually making suggestions of advice and ways to help your situation. i hope eventually that those posters that have issue with you or your thread will take it over to bob pure's thread and vent there. but, they may not, and in such case, i think you will do a fine job of ignoring those posts that are not helpful to you. as you see from what justuss posted, you are welcome to post where ever you want to and are entitled to the help as any of us here are. those who are perfect here and have never made a mistake should be the ones to cast the first stone... and alas, none of us are. coming from my christian point of view, if you have asked forgiveness for this sin that you committed, ie, the affair, than you are already forgiven by god and who are we to judge you? i would say you should ask your ex wife for forgiveness as well if you never have, even if you do it 30 years later. that is the one thing i wish my ex would do.

anyway, here are my thoughts: my father had many affairs. my parents divorced after 26 years of marriage and i was thankful that they did because he was an alcoholic as well. my mother remarried and has been happily married for over 20 years now. my father married one of his long time affair partners. they have a daughter, my only sister. i was 17 when she was born. where as my mothers remarriage has always been good, my father's has not. because of him of course. he can be very controlling and is very jealous. my stepmother has gone through a lot with him. long story short, their marriage is good now but it was not for probably the first at least 10 years. my stepmother has told me that she is very sorry for any pain the fact that she was with my father may have caused me. i have forgiven the pains of my past. i am glad my parents divorced and glad they are in happier marriages now. i do consider my father's wife my step mother even though she is an affair wife. i love her, i have known her for years, and she has treated me as if i were her own.

i love my sister as well, she, of course, was innocent in all of this. i do not know if she knows her parent's marriage is an affair marriage or not nor do i think her knowing if she does not know would serve any good purpose. my parents marriage was over and both had remarried within the year of their splitting up and my sister was born during that time.

now, because i love my sister and know how devastating it would be for her not to have her parents be together i would hope that if the marriage needed help people would help them. i think those here who are being so obstanent about NOT helping you are forgetting about the children. even though yours are grown up, it does not mean it will hurt them any less if you and your wife divorce. and what good is it to tell them that your marriage is an affair marriage? that had nothing to do with them! i don't think they need to know that part at all. those who are suggesting you tell them that and go ahead and divorce are not thinking at all about your children's feelings. i cannot imagine the hurt and how much it would mess up my sister if, during the hard times, my dad and step mom had divorced and she had been told "oh, our marriage would never have worked anyway, it was born from an affair, etc" good lord, my sister would be devastated!

my dad and my stepmom have both asked my forgiveness for past wrongs that may have hurt me and have forgiven and moved on. i know they have brought it before god as well and he has forgiven them too. that is good enough for me. i have even been there for my step mom,as an adult, when things have been tough in their marriage. and my mother? she is far beyond what happened over 20 years ago. if she and my dad had not split up she would be in the happy marriage she has now. trust me,she feels my step mother did her a favor. in fact, we all get together for my kids b'days, etc, and we all get along very well.

HOWEVER, in my own situation, with my ex living with one of his many ow.... well, i am still of course hurt and angry at his actions in our situation. if he were to marry her tomorrow and come here a year from now asking for help for his marriage i would probably say "you made your bed now lie it you piece of trash!" but that is because it is still so fresh for me. BUT, if i believed he was truly remorseful, (which he shows NO REMORSE at all for the things he has done), if he had asked my forgivenss for hurting me and our children and for the affairs and i knew he had gone before god with it i think it would be different. if he was truly sorry and he was trying to make right by this second marriage and end the cycle of infidelity, than i would be ok with him asking for help here or anywhere else. i think it depends on where you are at and where you are coming from.

my life has been surrounded, it seems, by infidelity. i know i want the cycle broken in my life. i want a marriage that won't be marred by it again. i want my sister to have parents who are together and not another divorce statistic. i have read and studied and gone to counseling,etc, so that i can be a good and heathy person who makes healthy choices and only has people in my life that respect me and treat me well and that i deserve nothing less than that.

part of me really wants to help you, and part of me is not sure what to think. so i am just going to say that i truly hope you can get the help you need and that you can end the cycle of infidelity and the cycle of divorce. i do NOT want to see your marriage end in divorce and i want you children to have 2 parents who are together and who can work through this. show your children that yes,affairs are wrong, but show them too how to fight with all of their being, for a marriage, and that it ain't over til it's over. don't make marriage look disposeable to them.

yes, you did something horribly wrong 30 years ago. thank god you did not have children with your first wife who had to be in the middle of that mess. don't let the cycle continue. fight for you marriage and make sure your children see that you are. you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say you honestly did all you could to save your marriage before you put an end to it. you couldn't do that 30 years ago, do it NOW.

pray for forgiveness and guidance.
ask for forgiveness of your ex wife if you have not already.
and fight like ******.

those are my thoughts.

mlhb
There's seems to be a lot of hullabaloo going around on this forum lately and felt I wanted to add something.

I'm not as colorful in my writings as others here and I do not have hundreds or thousands of posts under my belt. But I am a BS at almost 5 years since my FWH decided to stay with his family.

I cannot feel too much angst toward Zog. Two things stand out to me:

1. His 1st marriage was brief. If his 1st wife had come to MB and asked for advise, the lot of you would say that since the marriage is very new, count your losses and move on. I have seen this advise given many times.

2. The marriage that Zog is trying to save is at 28 years! They have already surpassed the statistical affair marriage timeline. If this marriage was less than 10 or 15 years, I would move past this thread and offer nothing to an affair marriage. However, 28 years and 2 kids may be worth it.

Sorry, but most convicts are released in shorter times and a few learn from their mistakes and become productive citizens in a community. I'm not here to chastize something that Zog did almost 30 years ago.

Don't get me wrong! Affairs are disgusting and cause heartache and destruction. My H and I watched friends of ours go through a divorce because the H had an affair. He is now married to his affair partner...going on 3 years. I cannot stand the site of either of them.

I'm not really known around here too much so I don't expect much recognition for my post. Just wanted to give my .02 worth.
I am not ignoring anyone's posts but I will not be bullied either. I am strong enough to cope, thanks in large part to the help and compassion of others here. I learn so much from stories like mltb's and others - the efforts put into such postings amazes me.
However the volume of words is swamping my ability to respond directly to all the constructive questions and suggestions. Please know that I have read and learned from them. I may answer later.
Unfortunately I cannot expose to the (adult-) children today as planned - I'd forgotten it's a public holiday here and both are away. However I did tell WW I would be doing so (I felt not to would break a promise, not a good start). It has shaken her deeply and the Reverse Babble technique was invaluable. Thank you.
Please continue posting however you care to. But it really helped me to put of few people on IGNORE. I've only done it a couple of times in all the thousands of times I post. When you have listened and responded and they keep distracting from the thread, its a good time to think about the ignore feature.

We advise folks NOT to warn the WS about exposure, but its already done, so don't worry.

Also keep working on doing some fun things together.
Went shopping together today with an excellent lunch too. Last week I put together a picnic for us to have by the river (a real novelty from me) and on Saturday a pub meal with 4 friends.
I feel so much more in control of what I'm doing since joining MB. Can't say if it will do any good at saving the marriage.
But I actually think she can see she has no future with OM so is definitely hedging her bets with me. OM has not left his wife even though he has been saying he wants to from the start - not because of WW, naturally, it was all wrong way before the A. I bet they've spent many hours moaning about their spouses and would find a lot less in common if/when they couldn't share that any more. Still, I don't want my future to be a marriage by default so lots to learn and lots to do.
Good. Plan A is a process of making yourself a better person in WW's eyes than the OM. At the same time, it's devoted to just you. In the process of working on yourself, you project a better image. So get on the treadmill, start jogging, or...my personal favorite because I've done this for 45 years +...go lift some weights in the gym and start making yourself "all you can be." Taking steps to be healthy is a win-win transaction for everyone.

Tell us about exposure. Who do you plan to expose this to and why. The rule of thumb is to expose to anyone who can reasonably be expected to put pressure on the adultery. That includes the OM's wife, Zog. She should be very high on the list. After her, you might consider your family members, professional associations your WW belongs to, church groups/congregations, your pastor, etc. If she's conducting this affair partly at work, the Human Resources Director at her workplace is another legitimate target. The big thing here is to not expose out of spite or anger. If you do, you abandon the high ground, okay? Stay calm and deliberate as you seem to have so far.

LH
ManfromZog,

Been gone a week and you are now up to your neck in MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good for you. Take you time and sift through all of the thoughts and advice. They may not seem consistent to you, yet. But, one thing will become obvious, all want to help in saving your marriage.

I am glad to see that you are going to be doing some exposure. Do it quickly, without letting WS know if you can, and completely. Don't play games and dribble it out.

Must go but will come back and read the volumes posted to you. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL
MFZ

I'd like to ask you a question , please.

If you knew that a BS like MIKE ( click here) was reading your thread today and that his W marrying her OM was what he feared most in his life, would you still post here or go somewhere less often frequented by such folks ?

I have asked all kind of people but actually folks openly in A-marriages have yet to respond so I thought I'd try here.

I do not intend to annoy or cause trouble. I am interested in your opinion.

Thanks in advance
Hey, Zog, send me an email at Longhorn__07@hotmail.com, would you please? Just click on that email address and it'll bring up an email form in your usual email client. You may need to change the originating address to an anonymous one. Alternately, if you click on my screen name anywhere in this or any other thread, you'll see my profile and can click on my email addy there.

ttyl

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Good. Plan A is a process of making yourself a better person in WW's eyes than the OM. At the same time, it's devoted to just you. In the process of working on yourself, you project a better image. So get on the treadmill, start jogging, or...my personal favorite because I've done this for 45 years +...go lift some weights in the gym and start making yourself "all you can be." Taking steps to be healthy is a win-win transaction for everyone.

Tell us about exposure. Who do you plan to expose this to and why. The rule of thumb is to expose to anyone who can reasonably be expected to put pressure on the adultery. That includes the OM's wife, Zog. She should be very high on the list. After her, you might consider your family members, professional associations your WW belongs to, church groups/congregations, your pastor, etc. If she's conducting this affair partly at work, the Human Resources Director at her workplace is another legitimate target. The big thing here is to not expose out of spite or anger. If you do, you abandon the high ground, okay? Stay calm and deliberate as you seem to have so far.

LH

You see Longhorn...this is where the advice gets all upside down in the situations of Adulterous Marriages.

Zog CAN'T make himself better than OM. They are merely both dogs of a different color. Best he can do is compete with OM to the bottom.

Further, and I am hesitant to mention this because it just may work, but being Mr. Nice Guy won't pull a formerly successfull WW from the fog and save an adulterous marriage.

You see...normally, we tell BS's to try to attract back their wife being the person they were when they starting dating their WW. Shouldn't the Save an Adulterous Marriage handbook say be a BIGGER dog than OM. If you seriously wanted to help Zog save his marriage shouldn't he try to attract her back by trying to get her to have an affair on her new boyfriend with him. Do what he did when he met her. Sneak around with her. Look her deep in the eyes and try to connect with her soul. Lie to her. Get her talking about OM and their relationship. Point out the flaws and how Zog would never do that to her. Fight for her with PASSION. Create a EXTREME EMOTIONAL ENVIRONMENT within which to demonstrate his undying love and resolve to fight for her. Excitement...not trite little wimpy picnics are what are going to win the day.

You see...from WW's point of view...THAT'S WHAT'S ATTRACTIVE. She wants a fantasy and Zog has to sell that his RENEWED fantasy is more romantic and passionate than OM's new fantasy. Zog has to out-affair the new guy.

A good salesmen needs to know his customer. Zog's WW ain't buying the old nice dog she's got at home unless that new dog demonstrates some new tricks to excite her and make her FEEL happy. Or to use another analogy, she's tasted cocaine and now the bag of marijuana she's got at home just ain't gonna cut it. Zog needs some crackrock to get her back home.

Finally, when you expose to these people (associations, churchs, etc) they should be fully aware that your marriage is an adulterous marriage otherwise you'll be, once again, taking advantage of others to suit your own purpose when they otherwise may be strongly opposed to, in any way, assist in the recovery of an adulterous marriage.

Constructively,

Mr. Wondering
That's amusing, MrW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What part made you laugh LH ? Its an exact application of Harley marrigebuilding into zogs situation from a man ON FIRE with the Harley MB weekend he just attended. Whats funny ?

Seems to if you think it is funny or wrong you either disbelieve Harley's assertion that affairs are fantasy attraction not fact, or you disbelieve Harley's marrigebuilding methods.

oh I forgot - I'm shunned.
Actually, I agree MFZ should be completely honest with those he exposes to. To omit it (aka a lie) would be manipulative.

[color:"blue"]
Quote
Finally, when you expose to these people (associations, churchs, etc) they should be fully aware that your marriage is an adulterous marriage otherwise you'll be, once again, taking advantage of others to suit your own purpose when they otherwise may be strongly opposed to, in any way, assist in the recovery of an adulterous marriage.
[/color]

Thanks guys. Your input is welcome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have a question: what if Mike & Joan's (or another's) marriage was an AM (I don't know the details but it's not beyond the realms) & the denial of assistance to either resulted in such a tragic outcome. What then??

This is a moral minefield. There is no panacea.

Personally, it's distilled down to what's right & wrong for me, & me alone. MFZ's M is an AM, not something that I'm predisposed to supporting but here I am; MFZ has (to my satisfaction) demonstrated ownership of his wrong-doings & attempted restitution. The first M was very short & no kids, the AM is (relatively) very long & has 2 kids. I feel that if MFZ chooses to try & save his 28 yr M then he should be given the opportunity, & if I want to help then so should I.

With the deepest respect & regards to all.

b.p.m.
ok, darnit, i was not going to post here any more but just want to say to mr. wondering: the post you posted above, i do, for the most part agree with. i think that post was actually constructive. i do think zog'a ww might not be "wooed" by a husband who now actually wants an honest marriage and one that is real with real problems and issues,etc. this, at this stage, may be boring to her, so yes, her new affair partner probably does appear much more exciting.

and, i do agree that when the exposure happens and as zog asks for help, he should say this is a marriage born of an affair. i do think people need to know that to know where he is coming from.

i do believe zog wants to right a wrong. his first marriage was very brief, and as stated before, there were no children thank god. had he or she had marriage builders 30 years ago maybe he wouldn't even be here now. i do feel he is remorseful for his actions and wants to end the cycle. i don't have issue with this. i do hope, again, that he has gone to his first wife at some point and asked for forgiveness and that he has asked god for it as well. if so, than i think the next step is to make this marriage work and fight for it. i am quite sure his first wife does not want to reconcile, that is a done deal.

however, if his ww is addicted to that excitement of another man feeling and zog is now in the mode of fighting for a marriage THE RIGHT WAY, than, yes, she may not ever be drawn to that. if this marriage does not work out i am sure zog will have learned a very hard lesson, albeit 28 years later... affair marriages don't work and if they will do it with you, they will do it to you. i am a FIRM believer in that.

and bob, i know you asked zog's opinion, but, i will chime in anyway... i would simply tell mike if reading this thread bothered him, than don't read it.

ok, bowing back out now...
for however long that will be....

mlhb
mlhb,

Mike committed suicide.
I must say it astonishes me that such platitudes as "don't read it if it offends you" TOTALLY miss the point that the desperate newbies here can't possible know it will offend them TILL they read it by which time the damage is done. DUH.
Quote
i do believe zog wants to right a wrong. his first marriage was very brief, and as stated before, there were no children thank god.

The length of a his first marriage nor the absence or presence of children does not negate that this is an AFFAIR MARRIAGE.

Just where is the X number of AM years that make betrayal and marriage to an affair partner deemed acceptable. Is it at the 5 year mark? 10 year mark? 15 year or greater mark?

And what x number of years make his first marriage less a casualty? 2 years? 3 years? 4 or greater?
Quote
i do believe zog wants to right a wrong. his first marriage was very brief, and as stated before, there were no children thank god.


The above will be such a comfort for the MB newbies to know who are in their 2-5 year mark of marriage that have no children.

You be sure and post that to them when you're supporting both MFZ and their situation.

I have asked that exact question Jo - haven't received an answer though.

Some have said the production of children is all that is required which is a great comfort to people trying to save their legitimate marriage when the affair has produced an OC.
Well, see "Mike" committed suicide without ever having read any such thread. It's unfortunate no one in the town where Mike lived referred him to MB, isn't it? He might have read a thread that might have upset him but someone might have been able to talk him through the lowest point in his life, might have!

The actual importance of that story is to motivate betrayed spouses to toughen themselves, gird up their loins as it were, for the fight to recover their marriage, as is clearly indicated by subsequent comments on that thread.

Personally, if a man in that condition had been even the slightest of my acquaintances, I would have worked night and day to help him get on an even keel...I would never have turned him away...but that's just me.
i never said it was not an affair marriage. in fact, if you read my post, i state that yes it is.

whether he was married one year or 10 or 20 does make the damage any less. i never said it did. that is why i have told zog that he must, if he has not already, ask his first wife for forgiveness and admit his wrongs.

this could just go round and round and round.
everyone on each side thinks they are right for their own reasons.

so, i am going to take my own advice now, and not read anymore of this thread because i find it to be extremely frustrating. i can understand all sides. as i stated in an earlier post, my fathers current marriage is an affair marriage and from that i have a sister.they have been married 20 years now. my own ex was a serial cheater.
i get those who want to lynch zog and i get those who want to help. so, for my own sanity, i am just not going to read on this thread anymore.

i respect all of you here and have given and received advice from many of you over the past 2 years.

i want to keep feeling that way.
so i'm just "not going to read it"

mlhb
When you do the math, its somewhat possible MFZ's betrayed wife could have posted here desperate for help during Zog's affair with OW now wife. Much like many a BS MB member here.

MB was established in 1976, and Zogs affair was 30 yrs ago.

Something to think about.

Good job, Zog. That is the kind of thing that appeals to most women - it doesn't always have to be something expensive or exciting. Women like that their man is thinking about them and trying to make things special.

It also gives you things in common to talk about and to look forward to. I know I had a hard time when our kids moved out of the house. I had to suddenly refocus from being a mom and caretaker to being more of a friend. The transition can be very difficult.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what she'd have used to connect. The IBM PC didn't get launched until 1981, for instance, and while there were a number of networks available in 1976, chiefly ARPANET, USENET, MILNET, and CSNET, none of these were available to the general public.
Folks,

This site didn't exist back then. I believe it started about 1998. I know when K was counseling with Steve Harley it was not here, and K was still actively trying to recover his marriage, which he did, when I came here in 1999.

As for helping a marriage started by an affair, it seems to me to be something of a conundrum. I am not sure which way to go. But they have been together 28 years and have children, sooooo I will offer advice...if asked.

God Bless,

JL
Personally, if a man in that condition had been even the slightest of my acquaintances, I would have worked night and day to help him get on an even keel...I would never have turned him away...but that's just me.

And your psychic abilities lead to you know which of your "slightest acquaintances" are desperate and near suicidal at this moment right ?

Tell you what LH - I bet there are MANY broken BS reading this that ARE desperate and near suicidal and you don't care less about disheartening them further by supporting and legitmising an affair marriage in their faces. Don't give me them horse apples about working night and day to help the desperate. You spit in the faces of the desperate when you abet all they fear most- A-marriages.

BTW I had been on MB for a month before I filled myself with A-D's and wine and drove my speedster into a tree to try to end my pain of infidelity. I'd lost hope. It doesn't take much when you hurt that bad. An unkind word, a piece of fog, a flaunted A-marriage...that kind of thing.

They can just stop reading if offended you say ? Remember back thirty years - were YOU in any kind of state to critique what you read and didn't just after d-day ?

You have read evidence that helping affair marriages on GQ2 discourages people in Mikes position and encourages people in Joan's position ( and you can't know there is no "Mike" or "joan" reading at any given time on MB) you will continue to prioritise helping A-marriages on GQ2 at the expense of all those who are hurt by it.

You would never turn away this mythical person you say yet you "turn away" every hurting person who is hurt by your helping A-marriages on GQ2.
Posted By: Orchid Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/29/07 09:35 AM
Bob,

As much as I respect your POVs, I gotta encourage you to stop the ranting. It isn't healthy for you or anyone else. I realize this is a highly charged issue. One that has been previously discussed with as much emotion as this one.

There will always be those in various stages of hurt. There will also be some who from an A M end up on the other side of the fence (i.e. now as a BS) and have to also go through those same stages of hurt. You want to deny them help also?

That is your choice. Each of us have a choice. Some can choose to help and others must choose to not help....but we can all choose to STOP sending negative messages to all who ask for help.

If a BS (regardless if they were previously an Xws), is now asking for help, it is very very different than a WS asking for help to retain the Ws status. Very different.

Notate the difference and if you can't work with it, that's ok but allow this one to get help. In the meantime, I am sure there are many others who would benefit from the help you can give.

take care,
L.
I gotta encourage you to stop the ranting.

One person's rant is anothers passionate argument.

What you are signally failing to see is that to have affair marriges supported in GQ is to send an EXTREMELY negative message to many who are looking for help and a very encouraging message to those in an affair who consider an A-marriage a great outcome. The fight against the support of A-marriges in public is seen as very POSITIVE to many folks who have posted. Around 77% of the 80 who have voted so far on my poll in fact think supporting a-marriges is hurtful to the vlnerable.

Your liberal opinion is in the minority here Orchid, not mine.

You want to deny them help also?

Have I said that ? Anywhere ? I want them to helped somewhere that their threads will not so likely dishearten BS and FWS and encourage WS and OPs as they are proven to do here in GQ2. My proposal will make their help BETTER because there will be likely less fighting. Has Jilly been disturbed since moving somewhere quieter for help ?

If a BS (regardless if they were previously an FWS), is now asking for help, it is very very different than a WS asking for help to retain the Ws status. Very different.

This is your opinion backed up by nothing BUT your opinion IMO. As valid and invalid as any opinion without factual support.
That a-marriage support in GQ2 after 1 year or 30 years sends a strong anti-marriagebuilding message is PROVABLE if you bother to look at the evidence. Not just opinion.

I cannot sit back while the many vulnerable are avoidably disheartened by the few being supported in GQ2. My conscience will not allow it.

If my "rants" bother you, and you are happy to continue a practice that demonstrably hurts and enourages the wrong people by turn, take your own advice and place me on ignore.
Posted By: 2long Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/29/07 06:07 PM
Quote
2long,

Quote
Sounds like if the WS simply pushes a DV through (and I've know of a few BSs here who've had this happen, such that they find themselves DVd within a few months of learning that there was a problem!) so they can have their A, then that's "okay" because they're not obligated 2 their BS
Granted, I'm a bit more stoic on the whole issue than many others appear to be. But I will remain faithful to my vows until I get a D. At that point, I will not hold my ExH to any higher standard than I would hold myself. I'm not justifying the cause of the D, just that it takes two to be Med. If one wants out, he or she will find a way. I can only control myself.

I concur that the M started in less than ideal conditions. Nonetheless, it is done, and like any M's with a spouse who had an underlying condition (addiction comes to mind), the flaw was there and they Med anyway. No point complaining. It's time to deal with it.

chobbs:

Sorry, I've been gone. I agree with your points.

I've had 2 consider all the imaginable possible outcomes of my W's LTA - well, I did have 2. I don't worry about them anymore for the same reasons you state, I can only control myself (maybe in particular, my choice 2 be a victim or not).

Anyway, one of those possible outcomes I had 2 face, particularly within the first 2ple of years after d-day, would have been if we Dv'd and my W had married Rat Meat. She'd still be my kids' mom. She'd still retain many of the good qualities that have made me want 2 recover our M all this time.

I'd like 2 see everyone grow from their infidelity experiences. Even Zog and his FOW/WW. Even 2gether.

I do think the mountain is a lot higher and steeper with an AM.

-ol' 2long
BP, you took my post personally. Actually, the "Mike" post was very clear in detailing the fact you and your wife didn't know about what was happening to "Mike" at the time. You didn't find out until months afterward. My comments weren't directed at you.

But...someone knew. Someone knew what was happening and was able to give your wife a very detailed account of it. If "someone" wasn't the person who saw the disaster directly, he/she got it from the "someone" who did see it first hand. It's THAT individual, and perhaps many individuals who DID know, but did nothing, that I condemn.

In addition, I set a boundary for myself, BP. A boundary doesn't obligate you or any other person to do anything at all. It's just for me. Simply put: I will do everything I can to help someone in trouble.

I'm really sorry you found yourself in that dark place once, BP.

Are you saying you were pushed there by reading a thread on "Affair Marriages?" I was lurking back when you first began posting. I don't remember any such threads, but if you were harmed, I'm doubly sorry I didn't start posting until much later. I'd have tried to be there for you through that period, BP, as I would for any person in pain and suffering for any reason. You have my deep and sincerest sympathy. Please accept my apology for not helping you at that time. I was wrong.
LH

I was pulled from the brink by some of the very people you dismiss in another thread. Those "anti marriagebuilding" people who want marriages to fail and want to banish people and who (presumably) stink up your nice neat forum with their shouting ( me included of course).

Yes, good friends knew at the time what a mess I was but did nothing. They didn't want to offend either of us by taking a stand for or against the affair. So did nothing but talk about " choice " and "follow your heart" to both of us, seperately.

See I think we are more alike than you would like to imagine LH. Your passion for defending the A-marriages is like my passion for defending those people who will be hurt by such support.

I cannot sit back and talk about peoples choice of helping a-marriages in GQ2 or people whould follow their heart is deciding how to approach this issue. Those decisions are all about THEM. What about those poor [email]b@astards[/email] who are standing where you and I have both stood, LH ? Shaking, crying, starving themselves at the very edge of the abyss, looking desperately for some sign than their universe is not broken for ever.

However skewed has been my message this has been my stand - let we who are mature and functional enough to make the choice choose for the greatest good. Not some dogma, or issue of pseudo-freedom of association.

I stand between that Oak tree I drove into and their automobiles, waving them away as best as I can. Impotent but trying to make a difference.

See I too, cannot do NOTHING, Sir. And so we must disagree.
Isn't it curious that one side of this argument complains the very mention of the phrase "Affair Marriage," is harmful to some betrayed spouses...and they keep right on posting to threads that keep the subject alive. They are, if their ideas are correct, making CERTAIN some are harmed. How's that for being caring? Whew!

Those on that side of the question are absolutely certain a betrayed spouse in an "Affair Marriage" cannot use Dr. Harley’s principles to recover that marriage. That’s an opinion that might or might not be true.

What those people don’t want you to know, folks, is that they could prove that theory by simply being quiet and let the train wreck just play itself out. They say it's inevitable, right? If they’re right, they don’t need to say or do a thing. They don’t need to make a single, solitary post.

Incredible, isn’t it? What could be simpler? If they are correct, all they have to do is hush...and both such marriages currently known to be on MB will fail. But...is that what people on the other side of this question are doing?

Hah! Not hardly.

In fact, they’re posting to Zog’s thread with thinly veiled “advice” contrary to Dr. Harley’s principles hoping Zog will become despondent, leave MB without getting any help and lose his marriage. They miss the point that if they continue to do this, and Zog’s or Jilly’s marriages fail, they will have failed because they didn’t get the help that would have saved them. If that happens, the folks on the other side of this issue will NOT have validated their theory at all. They will only have made sure another marriage fails.

Actually, those folks aren’t interested in letting Dr. Harley’s program work or fail of it’s own accord. Whether Dr. Harley’s principles have any validity in an “Affair Marriage” isn’t any of their concern. What is becoming increasingly clear is that the overriding consideration on their side is their preconceived notion of how things should be on this board. If they were convinced Dr. Harley’s ideas wouldn’t work in Zog’s or Jilly’s case, they would sit back and (when the marriages failed) these folks would feel fully entitled to say, “See? I told you so. Na na na na na naaaaa…

In fact, those people are scared to death Dr. Harley’s principles WILL work for Zog and Jilly both. They can’t stand the thought of that happening, so they’re doing everything they can to make sure the program doesn’t have any effect by obstructing the process; demeaning the married partners who have come here for help; and attempting to drive off those who would otherwise help with insulting insinuations, mockery, and bombastic rhetoric.

That’s the way some folks are. Personally, I think you must examine these folks very, very closely. You see, to them, Zog, Jilly, and their spouses aren’t real people. To those who want Zog and Jilly shunted off to the side, Zog, Jilly, and their families are no more important than paper dolls. They’re just puppets about whom this is just an abstract discussion. The folks who feel this way don’t give a da*n about the human beings whose lives will be affected if those marriages fail. They don’t care if the lives of any number of people in Zog’s and Jilly’s families are SHATTERED. If these folks can bust up those marriages, those folks will feel vindicated in their jihad. The witches will have been turned out.

Well…some folks will protest…Zog, Jilly and their affair partners caused pain and suffering in other families as well as their own, albeit years and decades ago. See, they say, this is just Zog and Jilly getting what they deserve.

What? Since when is there any virtue in heaping MORE pain on top of what has already endured I’d like to see that in the Bible. Show me where God demands an adulterer suffer after a divorce has happened. What you'll find is God forgives those who have strayed.

I’d like to see the idea of making additional suffering in cases like these promoted in ANY theological book. I’d like to see where it is recommended in any ethics textbook. You know what? The feeling that more suffering is okay is motivated by a sordid need for some kind of revenge, and it’s just not right.

I have to wonder if the people who don’t want Zog or Jilly here really care about people at all. Oh, I know…they say they’re only doing this to protect you, the betrayed spouse. You are too vulnerable, they say. You might be dispirited if you even know there is a chance an “Affair Marriage” can succeed. That’s called a patronizing attitude, by the way. What they’re actually saying is you newly betrayed ones just aren’t quite good enough. You’re not quite as equal as the rest of the animals in the barnyard.

You know what. If I were you, I’d be concerned if these folks can feel righteous in the way they discriminate against Zog and Jilly, you might worry you’ll be next to be discriminated against. If they’ll do it to Zog, they might find you to be unworthy of respect and support tomorrow. I hope not, but you still should worry. When only a few people want to dictate who can be in a certain forum, who can post without interference and who cannot, we all need to be concerned.

Some of them over there want Zog and Jilly banished to the EN Forum. However, even they admit the amount of advice and support over there is inferior to that on GQII. Someone used race in another thread as a metaphor to illustrate what’s going on with the suggestion to banish these two folks to EN. The individual who suggested that was subjected to immediate scorn and ridicule but that person had a point. The concept of separate, but equal, schools for black and white folk in this country was debated fifty years ago. It was determined there was no validity to the argument morally, practically, or legally. To complete the allegory, there is no legitimacy whatsoever to the idea Zog and Jilly can get “equal” treatment in EN. It just can’t happen.

Personally, instead of disparaging newly betrayed spouses, I think those who come here demonstrate they’re tougher than the average simply by coming here in the first place. They show toughness when they begin Plan A, and often graduate into Plan B.

This program is not for the faint of heart. Dr. Harley’s principles will completely fail if they aren’t enforced in the face of conflict, hostility from the WS, and trepidation about doing things that force the WS to face the consequences of their adultery.

A person on another thread insinuated the other night that I was actively engaged in an “Affair Marriage” and that’s why I was willing to assist Zog. He was gaslighting me, trying to convince me that I was dirt; that I wasn’t speaking from the highest of motives and, in fact, I had a vested interest in “supporting” Zog because I was just like him. The truth is, I’m divorced and have been for 33 ½ years. I am, in fact, a victim of an “Affair Marriage”. My ex cheated on me 34 years ago and I had to have months of professional counseling just to put me back together well enough to function in society.

My ex married her partner in adultery one week after our divorce was final! One little week…seven days. My ex had to get a special provision inserted into the divorce decree to get an exception to the state law prohibiting such a thing. Can you imagine???

Frankly, if there is anyone here who has a perfect right to be depressed by just noticing the fact “Affair Marriages” sometimes DO succeed, it is ME…but I refuse to give in and let the horror rule my life.

I believe you other newly betrayed ones are at least as resistant as I am. You’re probably better than I because you’ve had the guts to get this far. You’re not second-class citizens. You’re the best.

And that’s where I stand.
Posted By: Owl Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/29/07 07:20 PM
Bob-

Quote
I cannot sit back and talk about peoples choice of helping a-marriages in GQ2 or people whould follow their heart is deciding how to approach this issue. Those decisions are all about THEM. What about those poor [email]b@astards[/email] who are standing where you and I have both stood, LH ? Shaking, crying, starving themselves at the very edge of the abyss, looking desperately for some sign than their universe is not broken for ever.

Did Jilly and Zog not feel the exact same way when they discovered that the person that they thought they could trust betrayed THEM in the same fashion you (and I) were betrayed?

What makes their pain at the subsequent loss of their relationship any less real than your own...or mine? Its ironic, I'll definitely grant that...even karmic to a degree. But it still doesn't negate that what they're feeling is every bit as real as what you and I went through. Should they have expected that this was possible, even likely given the start of their own relationship? OF COURSE...but that still does nothing to negate the fact that it DID happen, or that they're still feeling that same sting of betrayal.

If their presence causes you pain...simply don't go to their threads. Don't open a post by that person. There are a number of threads I avoid for similar reasons...

Justuss has provided what MB's stance on this is for this forum...and that's where we're at now.
Bob, way back (28 May, 11:08) you actually addressed ME! If I thought answering your question would save a single marriage I'd give you an answer. Some folks here want to help, others want to swamp my thread and deny help. Perhaps the latter would prefer I re-register under a new name, hiding certain facts in my story, to get that help.
MOM has not left his wife so by HELPING me you might indirectly help save a virtuous BS's marriage. More than that, MOM's principal stated reason for staying is that his wife might commit suicide - her brother (MOM's former best friend) killed himself (not related to marriage problems)! So by helping me maybe you could save a life too - assuming MOM's story has any truth in it.
The phenomenal commitment of so many posters here astonishes me. I hope some will continue to offer me help. IGNORE seems the only option if I am to have any chance of responding to it.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 11:59 AM
and what's your agenda MFZ....what can you accomplish here that you couldn't acomplish on a quieter board???? Not a friggin thing. See, I am beginning to suspect that your story isn't even true... that you are just some poster that had a bug up his or her butt after the JJ thread... and now you have decided to prove a point. I have a pretty good bull s detector and it goes off every time you open your mouth.
Latest:- My wife says she wants to work at saving our marriage. There has been no contact for about 2 weeks (I think that may be true). We have not yet agreed an NC letter so still not at recovery.
Visit to British Museum together tomorrow so still working at Plan A. Wish me luck, those that can.
Are the first two entries worth a poll too?
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 12:27 PM
Quote
In fact, those people are scared to death Dr. Harley’s principles WILL work for Zog and Jilly both


nothing but hot air. LH, the champion of the A marriage.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 12:57 PM
MEDC;

There is a rather lengthy post where people can blast away sharing opinions on affair marriages. Perhaps you should stay away from this particular thread, I'm not sure what YOUR AGENDA is here...?

As of now, there is NOT a "quieter" place designated nor required.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 12:58 PM
thanks for the suggestion...I am content posting my thoughts as I see fit.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 01:18 PM
So lets just be honest then, your agenda is to make Zog as uncomfortable as possible?
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 02:01 PM
thanks again for your thoughts Lexxxy.

MEDC
I have now invoked IGNORE where necessary.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 02:40 PM
goodie.
Posted By: Owl Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 02:51 PM
MEDC-

I'm thinking perhaps you missed this post from Justuss, so I'm re-posting it here for you:

Justuss wrote:
Quote
Lately we have had a couple of posters on MB GQII seeking help for their marriages that were the result of an affair. Each time the poster reveals this information, the thread takes on a life of it's own. Some members do NOT want to allow affair based marriages to post on GQII where so many Newbies may be reading and/or lurking.

This Marriage Builders site was created, funded, and owned by Dr Harley. Dr Harley has written many books, conducted many lectures, has a talk radio program and offers phone counseling and weekend seminars for those in need of his expertise. He has offered the Marriage Builders web site as a way for us to discuss our marital problems and apply his concepts and principles to solve them. We, as MB members, are HIS GUESTS.

To MY knowledge Dr Harley does not discriminate against anyone seeking help saving their marriage. If someone calls his radio program and wants help saving a marriage that was the result of an affair, he does not ask them to wait til the end of the program and caution other listeners to tune out. If an affair resulted in a pregnancy, either by the husband & OW or the wife & OM, he does not ask the H & W to sit in the rear of the room at the seminar. If the marriage is bi-racial, May-Dec, or a same-sex union he does not ask them to take only the left-over open counseling appts at 3am. All are treated equally.

There is nothing about an affair that is NOT hurtful. To read about a marriage that was not saved and resulted in a divorce is hurtful. To learn about the complications added when an "other child" occurs is very painful. To witness the struggle of a BS or FWS trying unsuccessfully to save their marriage is painful & frustrating. Once on this rollercoaster, we can't escape the hurt. But we do not "forbid" these posters to post in certain forums. They are free to post & seek help wherever they choose. We can "suggest" forums that may better suit their needs but we can not and do not bannish them to a place we have deemed "more appropriate" or less hurtful to other posters.

If you feel you can help these posters..PLEASE do so!! And if you feel their situation is so inappropriate you can not in good conscience help them,, PLEASE SKIP THAT POST and move on. Your condemnation is not necessary.

**edited to add*** Bob, I am NOT finding fault with your poll. There is nothing wrong with asking the membership their feelings about ANY subject and acquiring positive input. However we do have to remember this is Harley's forum and it has to be run by his standards. All I am asking is respond to these posters if you have constructive advice or suggestions OR don't respond at all.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 02:57 PM
thanks OWL for your input as well.
Verify that there is no contact as best as you can. I think you said that OM's wife knows about this place. It would be good if she can work the program too.

OM usually don't leave their wives, so his story of why he doesn't is probably just a story. Inform his wife if you find contact.

In the meantime, 15 hours a week doing fun things. Try to make the marriage a safe place for your wife to come, with no disrespectful judgments or angry outbursts.

You might think of future goals and plans to discuss and look toward as a way to make the marriage more appealing.
Work on changing anything that she has complained about over the years.
Leave this laying around somewhere -

Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom. Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.

Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2

The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.

The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.

Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well. The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.

The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.

Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?

To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.

In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.
In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.
Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
The Powerful Effects of Commitment

Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.

The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.

Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?

The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.

Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.

On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.

More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.

Other Findings

Other findings of the study based on the National Survey Data are:

The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) took place to adults who had been happily married when first studied five years earlier. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.
Unhappy marriages are less common than unhappy spouses; three out of four unhappily married adults are married to someone who is happy with the marriage.
Staying married did not typically trap unhappy spouses in violent relationships. Eighty-six percent of unhappily married adults reported no violence in their relationship (including 77 percent of unhappy spouses who later divorced or separated). Ninety-three percent of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce reported no violence in their marriage five years later.
Posted By: Owl Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 05/30/07 03:21 PM
Good info Believer. I'd not read that last article myself.
I think I've read "Does Divorce Make People Happy?". If it's the one that I'm thinking of it's very good - the only thing that's not so brilliant about it is all the couples in the sample set are in California; a microcosm unlike anywhere else in the world, let alone the UK. Have I got the right book ??

Cheers.

b.p.m.
It is an exerpt from americanvalues.org, marriage center. The actual study is 17 pages long. Two years ago, I gave the whole document to my boss, and mailed it to his wife. They were filing for divorce, living in different states. They are now happily back together, and expecting a son. Don't know if it was the article or not.

We don't like to hear that we need to "endure", but often that is what it takes to stay married.
Every little bit helps, believer. Kudos for extending a helping hand to your boss. Thanks for the article. I'm still absorbing it so I can't comment yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I was referring to a book that I read - obviously not titled the same but similarish content. When I'll dig it out I'll post the title. The findings that struck me most in that book were that kids don't gave a fabulous flying stuff if their parents are happy, only that they're together i.e. the assertion that "the children are happier if their parents are happy & separated rather than together & not happy" is not true.

I am off to read it now. Thanks B.
Thanks Believer, I have copied the article and am studying it - I may leave it around to be "discovered".
By the way OMW knew about the A a year before I did. She eventually threatened exposure and WW simply forestalled by telling me herself (no option). I recently told OMW of a second, "secret" mobile phone that her husband has used for communicating with WW - I have accepted that it's war now.
There's still fog ("You're telling me to switch off my emotions and I can't do it just like that", is that a traditional one?) We have an NC agreement but not yet in writing.
WW knows I have checked her mobile for messages and her call history so that's a closed snooping path but her itemised bill can sometimes be intercepted. Any other good ideas on checking adherence to NC are welcome.
British Museum tomorrow (perhaps the Egyptian Mummies exhibition) and next week a "pub walk" (pub drink - walk - pub lunch - walk - pub coffee) in a lovely part of the English countryside. Next weekend her birthday - I've bought a beautiful dress (hope she likes it and it fits, never risked that before) and a meal with the children and their boy/girl friends. Better add some flowers don't you think?
Owl, Thanks for reposting that. I am a fairly new member to MB. I can tell you that I have gotten some good insight from this thread when people have addressed the real issues.
I can also tell you that it is very annoying when people like MEDC break up a thread just to serve their own selfish purpose.

If you want to bash A marriages, than go to a thread that is for that purpose. There are plenty of them out there.
Okay, so no exposure needed to OMW. You're already in contact. You're sure WW is in NC now? If so, are there measures you can take to check on that from time to time? One of our Presidents used the phrase, "Trust, but verify," and it seems very appropriate for situations like this.

As believer said, continue to work on yourself. That's Plan A. Whether you think it or not, it'll be noticed. Everything adds another increment in the battle to coax her into recommitting enthusiastically to the relationship and you being "all that you can be," is one of those straws.

Hang in there, friend.
You are very brave - continuing to post here, and BUYING YOUR WIFE A DRESS!!!! Hopefully she will like it.

I'm encouraged by your wife agreeing to spend time with you. Often they will refuse.
Practice, self-awareness and perhaps some feed back will hopefully improve my Plan A-ing but I've made a start and it's so much easier than I thought to be alert to opportunities and to keep my mind with where I am rather than in orbit around Planet Zog (I guess that was a habit I acquired when work filled my brain all the time - it's not like that now).
Verification is a big problem. I can't check her phone directly now (but maybe the itemised bill). I can check her car's mile-o-meter occasionally against where she says she's been. What about fitting a sneaky GPS and/or digital voice recorder in the car? Technically a bit sophisticated for me. Anyone got some good, simple ideas? Or any ideas really.
P.S. I can't actually see how mkeverydaycnt is trying to make me feel uncomfortable lexxxy because she's on my IGNORE list now.
The dress idea is rather bold Believer, but when I saw it in a magazine I thought it was so beautiful and feminine and would suit her wonderfully. It was hard to find a stockist, I had to go miles. But it can be changed for a few days after her birthday. Big bunch of flowers as backup then do you think?
That's the trouble with IGNORE. You miss half the action. In over 18,000 posts, I've only ignored a couple folks, and only from time to time. But it sure comes in handy.

You can get a realtime GPS to stick in the car that will transmit to a remote computer and give you the time and place she is. It sure saves a lot of worry and legwork.

Some folks have used the digital voice recorder in the car, but you only get one side of the conversation, and the background noise can make it difficult.
Hey, practice makes one better at just about anything and Plan A is no different.

I don't know what is available from your cell phone provider, but is there a chance you could check it online? If not, I'd continue checking the hard copy billing. Checking her odometer is good; make sure you pick good opportunities where, if she's still involved with OM, she won't observe you checking.

I wouldn't overlook the fact she may know you're looking at the cell phone bill. WS's in similar situations have been known to procure an "affair phone," often a "throw-away" anonymous cell phone we can purchase from convenience groceries here in the U.S.

Zog, are there any indicators she might be using a phone or going to meet him somewhere? Some of the flags might be her taking or initiating calls at all hours of the day or night, separating herself from you when she uses her cell, hiding the cell phone, or conscientiously deleting the calling history, etc.

Similarly, if she says she must (frequently) run to the grocery or the mall or anywhere else and she’s gone too long (or for too short a period), that would be an indicator something is amiss. If she goes somewhere to pick up or buy something, but comes home without it, that’s another big red flag. So are “nights out with the girls,” or shopping trips to other than the stores she usually goes to.

If you think she might be meeting OM somewhere, or using absences to text message or call him when she goes out on trips by herself, then one of the tiny digital recorders secreted in the car might give you invaluable information. Find a decent electronics store (Do they have "Radio Shack" stores over there?) and look their selection over. Find a small one that is sound operated, has a fairly large memory, and good battery life. You may have to ask advice from the proprietors and don’t be afraid to let them know what you’re doing. I’ve known folks to get a lot of valuable advice from a sympathetic clerk. (Of course, you won’t want to select a store you or your WW would normally patronize, right?)

If you get one of these and you put it in her car, be sure to secrete it very securely beneath the seat, or somewhere else. Use duct tape or something to secure it up under the seat, for instance. If it slides out from under the seat when she brakes for a red light, it’ll be counterproductive, to say the least.

If you aren’t getting any signals along these lines, there may, in fact, be no contact. That would be great. You can trust your instincts in this, Zog. Your subconscious mind notices things you don't know you're actually seeing and it tells you about dangers it detects. If you’re uneasy about something, chances are one side of your brain is trying to tell the other to beware.

If you can establish NC, then you can start the long process of coaxing her to enthusiastically commit to saving the marriage. Seems to me, you two could benefit highly from a good couples counselor. I know it would be awfully expensive from overseas, but if you two can get Steve Harley’s advice, it would absolutely provide you with enormous returns.

LH
The flowers might be a bit much. I don't know your wife like you do.

You should be sure to meet what you think are her top emotional needs. If you are not sure what they are, try meeting some and see if there is a response.

The top ones are admiration, affection, conversation, domestic support, family commitment, financial support, honest and openness, physical attractiveness, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

If you are not sure how to meet them, check out the basic concepts section at the top, and then go to emotional needs. Dr. Harley gives excellent tips on HOW to meet them.
MFZ,

I must say that the dress idea is bold indeed; something that I'd never have the balls to attempt (along with jewelry & underwear - I should address that one day soon really).

Snooping is one thing I didn't (or couldn't) buy into: I would sooner just get a D than start that. I not saying that you, or anyone else, shouldn't - there's no right or wrong here, just what works for you & what doesn't. The one thing I do use is a diary to record my thoughts, feelings & what FWW talks about. I know when she lies (which is a lot, alarmingly), the only thing is that this doesn't tell me what the truth is, only what it isn't. Less than ideal but it's enough for me at this point.

Stick with your plan A, it may be a while before you see some dividends but you will.

b.p.m.
Thanks B/LH, I'll look into these devices. Radio Shack used to be over here but may have pulled out. We do have similar stores though (Maplins).
My wife hasn't worked since we married and has developed a huge range of activities to fill her time. She is out of the house a lot for extended periods. This is really going to make the "signals" hard to detect. It is possible to get the phone company to track phone locations and report to a PC but the tracking is reported to the phone - I think it's meant for worried parents to monitor their kids not for invading the privacy of adults.
OM has an "affair phone" (which I discovered from WW's call history) and have now told OMW about. She can easily get one too. I will check whether she is still blanking all records but she can also delete individual records unfortunately.
Did Jilly and Zog not feel the exact same way when they discovered that the person that they thought they could trust betrayed THEM in the same fashion you (and I) were betrayed?

What makes their pain at the subsequent loss of their relationship any less real than your own...or mine? Its ironic, I'll definitely grant that...even karmic to a degree. But it still doesn't negate that what they're feeling is every bit as real as what you and I went through. Should they have expected that this was possible, even likely given the start of their own relationship? OF COURSE...but that still does nothing to negate the fact that it DID happen, or that they're still feeling that same sting of betrayal.

If their presence causes you pain...simply don't go to their threads. Don't open a post by that person. There are a number of threads I avoid for similar reasons...

Owl you want to know what makes their pain a little different from others on this site, they cheated on their spouses or parnters, together !!! Why in the heck should he be surprised that she is a ws spouse again yeah many yrs later but he knew this was in her, the other posters who post here, trusted their spouses, because there was not any red flags waving in the wind, so to speak,
you ask should they suspected it I would say yes, if you buy brown cow expecting chocolate milk............
At least the dress shows a new, more imaginative me but I will make it very clear that I don't mind if she changes it. I rather agree with you about elaborate snooping BPM, I'm not sure I can face it but I'll think about it. The simple stuff I will do.
Zog:

How did the conversation with your Kids go?

LG
MFZ
"pub walk" (pub drink - walk - pub lunch - walk - pub coffee) in a lovely part of the English countryside

Which lovely part ? Don't get many Brits on here. I'm from the Black country.
Anyone know the time difference between GB and say...Central Time zone in the U.S.?
7 or 8 hours
Assuming that is where the troll, IMO, really lives.
Quote
Anyone know the time difference between GB and say...Central Time zone in the U.S.?

6
Thank you BB. I finally located an annotation in Win2K that showed me the 6 hour difference, but I don't trust Super Bill's little programs. Nice to have the confirmation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi LG:- I have already been in contact with OMW and the other day I let her know that her husband has an affair phone and gave her the number.
I told WW I was going to expose the A to them (we had agreed to discuss it first, before I found my way to MB and I don’t like breaking promises – not now). I have never, ever seen her so distraught and she has agreed NC (though not done a letter yet) and to work on doing things together. So the prospect alone may have done the trick – I’m not taking that for granted of course. I’m worried that exposing further at this stage would look to her like spite and I don’t see what benefit it would bring at present since we are already negotiating our way ahead. Of course I will tell them if it turns out we’re not on the road to recovery. But my children are adult and not living with us so are not being directly affected by what is happening now; in fact if they have noticed anything at all it will be me Plan A-ing.
Quote
Oxford English Dictionary :

The "planet Zog" is a "place or situation which is far removed from reality or what is currently happening"


Interestingly Man of Fog has indicated several times on this thread that his wife has said "he is from the planet Zog". Might have been a unconcious slipup to draw attention to ManFromZog as a clue to his trollness or an effort to explain away the obvious inference that can be drawn from his very name...now, that he's stirred up so much controversy. He was anticipating the inference and overexplaining it away.

To bad Longhorn's and ManFromFog are ignoring me, they could attempt to clear up this theory. Perhaps the moderators could do a simple check to see if this guy/girl is even actually posting from the UK.

Mr. Wondering
On the other hand,

The Planet Zog could be considered an apt description of a 28 year affair marriage.

Mr. W
Or all this "Wondering" could just drive you nutty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Good news, Zog. That she's reacting with horror to having her affair exposed further is a reaction I think is a positive step. Many WS's couldn't care less. Now you need to work on ensuring NC is actually in place. If she contacts him even once, the clock is set back to zero on the recovery.

I think for the present you might well hold off on further exposure. Its purpose, after all, is to end the adultery and if the small exposure you've done has worked, that's all that needs to be done.

However, be aware WS's sometimes promise more than they're actually willing to deliver. When the process is a little further on, we call it "false recovery." Just be aware of that, okay? Have a plan in the back of your mind to do a full exposure if it ever becomes necessary.

Regarding your children...I would suggest that some day, you and your wife sit down together, as a couple, and talk to your children about this. Unfortunately, someone may have observed something...OMW might divorce her husband and spread this far and wide...etc., etc. You can remove the hurt they’ll feel if you, as a couple, go to them first.

BTW, if you don't plan to expose to them right now because your wife has expressed a desire to work on the marriage, be aware you'll need to if she falls off the wagon, as we colonials say. Enough said.

Okay, you’re nowhere near the end of Plan A, but you might be at the end of the beginning of Plan A. (Thought I’d throw a little Winston Churchill in there.) Exposure is the first step. Now, pretend you haven’t told anyone here about Plan A. Tell us what you’re doing in your Plan A. Lay it out for us. Tell us how you and your WW are communicating, what you’re doing for yourself to make yourself into a more attractive spouse to her, etc., etc. Setting it down in print will help you organize your thoughts, and we can toss suggestions your way.

This is by way of suggesting you are at a point where you need to start planning your steps for the next few months, at least. For one thing, Plan A doesn't go on indefinitely. Dr. Harley recommends limits as you can read in SAA. One thing to start considering is marital counseling (MC).

I think it's very difficult to completely recover from something like this without a forum an MC can provide -- a safe, non-judgmental place where everything can be aired without fear of attribution. Start thinking about it, okay. WW may not be ready for it yet, but it would be good to have your plan set up. Getting an appointment for telephone counseling with Steve Harley would be great, for instance. However, with a huge time difference, I frankly don't know how it would work. If you can't do it, find yourselves a good, experienced, pro-marriage counselor in the local area, okay.

Keep up the good work, Zog.
In case anyone missed this...and, to put my prior two posts into more full context on one thread...here is what I posted earlier on Longhorn's thread:

Quote
The wise Owl asked:
.
If Zog's BS showed up today wanting him back...what advice would you give her?

I would certainly tell her not to be "needy and clingy"...since Man of Fog indicated that's the reason they divorce 28 years ago.

Quote
Man of Fog:
.
I have met the MOM also more recently to understand his situation directly (it confirms what WW told me). It seems he has wanted to leave his wife for many years, or at least to have more freedom if he stays (she is very clingy and demanding, like my XW was) . He believes she is capable of suicide if he goes, therefore he hasn’t left and maybe never will. My WW thinks OMW may be a physical threat to her though MOM thinks this unlikely.
...

The more I thought about this quote and the way Man of Fog laid out his entire thread initially, full of facts (especially STARTING out with the whole 1st marriage and affair part..go back and read it...it's ODD), then thereafter completely devoid of many facts or feelings at all, along with some other stuff, the MORE I tend to go with MDEC on this. Man of Zog is a troll!!!.

Think of it this way...the quote above, WHY is he discussing with MOM the reasons MOM's marriage is falling apart. Who does that??? Second, how many BS's don't fully sympathize with the other BS??

Maybe, just maybe, MOM's wife is needy and clingy cause her husband has been having an affair with your wife for MANY MANY years behind her back. Same thing with Man of Fog's former wife. He cake ate at home and dragged her through the coals for 8 months, supposedly, and 28 years later, he hasn't OWNED a thing. She's still was just too needy and clingy for him. Leaving her was for the best. No regrets whatsoever. If he's real...he's certainly not repentent. Foggy as ever.

Just my opinion, Carry on.

Mr. Wondering
Query: Can someone really be ignored by someone who isn't [likely]real anyway???

Another thing I needed to say: I appreciate very much Longhorn's concern about my pain...my back is feeling a lot better. A couple visits to the Chiropractor is all it took but last weekend was, as Longhorn perceived, pretty painful.

W
Quote
In case anyone missed this...and, to put my prior two posts into more full context on one thread...here is what I posted earlier on Longhorn's thread:

Quote
The wise Owl asked:
.
If Zog's BS showed up today wanting him back...what advice would you give her?

I would certainly tell her not to be "needy and clingy"...since Man of Fog indicated that's the reason they divorce 28 years ago.

Quote
Man of Fog:
.
I have met the MOM also more recently to understand his situation directly (it confirms what WW told me). It seems he has wanted to leave his wife for many years, or at least to have more freedom if he stays (she is very clingy and demanding, like my XW was) . He believes she is capable of suicide if he goes, therefore he hasn’t left and maybe never will. My WW thinks OMW may be a physical threat to her though MOM thinks this unlikely.
...

The more I thought about this quote and the way Man of Fog laid out his entire thread initially, full of facts (especially STARTING out with the whole 1st marriage and affair part..go back and read it...it's ODD), then thereafter completely devoid of many facts or feelings at all, along with some other stuff, the MORE I tend to go with MDEC on this. Man of Zog is a troll!!!.

Think of it this way...the quote above, WHY is he discussing with MOM the reasons MOM's marriage is falling apart. Who does that??? Second, how many BS's don't fully sympathize with the other BS??

Maybe, just maybe, MOM's wife is needy and clingy cause her husband has been having an affair with your wife for MANY MANY years behind her back. Same thing with Man of Fog's former wife. He cake ate at home and dragged her through the coals for 8 months, supposedly, and 28 years later, he hasn't OWNED a thing. She's still was just too needy and clingy for him. Leaving her was for the best. No regrets whatsoever. If he's real...he's certainly not repentent. Foggy as ever.

Just my opinion, Carry on.

Mr. Wondering

Just wanted to quote this for those who have you on ignore, Mr. W.

~ Marsh
Quote
Quote
Oxford English Dictionary :

The "planet Zog" is a "place or situation which is far removed from reality or what is currently happening"


Interestingly Man of Fog has indicated several times on this thread that his wife has said "he is from the planet Zog". Might have been a unconcious slipup to draw attention to ManFromZog as a clue to his trollness or an effort to explain away the obvious inference that can be drawn from his very name...now, that he's stirred up so much controversy. He was anticipating the inference and overexplaining it away.

To bad Longhorn's and ManFromFog are ignoring me, they could attempt to clear up this theory. Perhaps the moderators could do a simple check to see if this guy/girl is even actually posting from the UK.

Mr. Wondering

Quoting for the same reason.

~ Marsh
I gave my XW my house (I paid for it from my money, saved before the marriage) in compensation, which helped her greatly when she immediately set up with another woman's husband - and they had kids !

I’m not sure why this ex from almost 30 years ago factors in this sitch. She certainly benefited financially and opened up shop elsewhere posthaste.

As far as troll accusations…real life can be quite a bit stranger than what is normally posted on these forums. I realize you don’t practice family law Mr. W but if you did, you would already know this. This is kind of funny but I used to wonder if you were a troll b/c a working attorney couldn’t possibly have the time to post as much as you do. Can you see how easy it is to make assumptions? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It used to be the norm on these forums to work at offering advice solidly based on what was learned on the main site and the books but there seems to be a vocal core group with a related but still separate agenda which is unfortunate. That agenda certainly seems appropriate for the Other Topics board or the Marriage Builder’s Website board where it would be less of a distraction from Marriage Building.

Zog….good step with the OMW exposure! Read as often/much as you can about Plan A to keep your spirits up and your motivation high. I have to second the recommendation to contact the Harley’s as the affair does fall into the long-term category (long distance or not) I think you would be comforted by speaking directly with them at the very least but either Jennifer or Steve are quite amazing, why not utilize everything at your disposal? I do wish you the best. KB
Thank you Marsh, but you didn't really have to do that.

Man of Fog knows he's a troll

AND

Sir Longhorn, in his current state of mind, would likely even support trolls with whatever their ambitions/goals are. After all, we can't just presume a trolls purpose is to disrupt MB and cause turmoil....that would be a disrespectful judgment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(sidenote - this is sarcasm...I KNOW Longhorn cares about MB as deeply as I do...we just happen to vigorously disagree on this affairaige issue and I am concerned about him. Additionally, I could be wrong about the Troll thing. When my wife first arrived here Pem2334 was convinced she was her FWH's OW. It's a tough call to make on the internet, but I've personally been right more than a few times)

Mr. Wondering
Marsh, a troll would have revealed himself by now. They can't help themselves. Review Zog's thread and see if you can find anywhere he's trumpeting the virtues of an affair marriage or adultery in generally. Show me ANYWHERE Zog has expressed glee that he found a partner in adultery and that their way is the best way. That's what trolls do, you know.

Do you remember the treatment Jesus gave to the Pharisees with their hidden agenda in John 8? I think you'll find it thoughtful reading, sir. Take out your Bible for a little review of expressions of God's love and forgiveness, rather than repeating specious accusations. Look at 2 Samuel too, Marsh. God may even condemn one, but then He forgives even murder, rape, and adultery.

If you review Zog's thread, Marsh, what you'll find instead is a wistful lament that MB didn't exist back when he was in his affair because it would have helped him achieve NC with his affair partner. You'll find expressions of remorse and a clear sense Zog understands what he did was wrong.

He can’t go back 30 years and change it though, Marsh. What would you have him do? Do you want him to destroy his current marriage to satisfy some need on your part for revenge? I hope not. I think better of you than that.

Ruining another marriage only achieves the ruination of another marriage. How will that affect your recovery one little bit, Marsh? How would Zog’s continued pain make you feel better about yourself? I think you need to consider this carefully. How about a little forgiveness as God forgives you for your sins?

LH
The main, best known marriage counselling organisation in UK is called Relate. Both us have seen Relate counsellors separately and once together (the latter experience was horrible for her and possibly I talked far too much).
It was comforting to me to talk to someone alone and, in spite of her reluctance to "speak to strangers", WW found that "helpful" too - by that I mean it seemed to reinforce her foggy views. The messages she came away with were: (1) you have a right to happiness, and (2) you need time.
I think that is because Relate are not determined to save marriages, just to encourage communication. They seem to do this in a passive way (what do you think? how do you feel about that?, etc) so the feedback you get is what you want to hear.
Does anyone have knowledge of better UK-based counsellors? The time difference certainly makes the Harleys a very difficult option (pity they don't have an offshoot or franchise over here) unless they have an email service.
Longhorn: It's mid-evening and my daughter is with us so I can't spend too long here right now. Your points will take some time to respond to so I'll have to leave that until the morning.
Thanks also knewbetter.
If you think there's any possibility you might be able to connect with SH, I think you should explore it. You can inquire by clicking on the "Counseling Center" button at the top of every MB page. They really are superb counselors. We all recommend contact with the Harleys whenever we see a newly betrayed spouse. Something to consider, okay?
Just grabbed a second or two to check what's happening here - thanks for that Longhorn.
Marshmallow - I put Mr W on IGNORE because I found his comments were not helpful to ME. Others are still free to read him if they wish. Your idea of circumventing my preference is pretty sneaky.
LH,

Aside from my quoting Mr. W's posts, I have said zero on this thread or any of the other threads related to this subject.

I see your mind is just as made up about this subject as Mr. W's is. And you are both acting w/ integrity according to what each of you believe.

I quoted Mr. W's post b/c I think his hunch may be a very valid one. And one that I wanted you to consider.

Good to know you did.

Quote
I think you'll find it thoughtful reading, sir.


If by "sir" you mean, a lovely woman, than I am indeed a "sir". LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your post.

~ Marsh
I am so very sorry. Please accept my sincere apology. I did not know you were a lady instead of a gent.

I considered, and rejected, what MrW's suggests a week ago, and for the reasons I stated. Now, will you, in turn, consider what I showed you? If you disagree with me, what troll-like things has Zog done?
LOL Zog, now what? I guess those of us who have folks on IGNORE will have to add IGNORE to the people who quote the people on IGNORE.
I hope that list won't have to expand too much, believer, but I'll do it to preserve what respect I have left for those folks.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Just grabbed a second or two to check what's happening here - thanks for that Longhorn.
Marshmallow - I put Mr W on IGNORE because I found his comments were not helpful to ME. Others are still free to read him if they wish. Your idea of circumventing my preference is pretty sneaky.

That's cool that you're making use of your ignore button.

And I'm making use of my my quote button.

Calling my use of it "sneaky" might be equal to someone calling your use of the ignore button, "cowardly".

*shrug*

~ Marsh
<sigh>

Bye, Marsh
Quote
I am so very sorry. Please accept my sincere apology. I did not know you were a lady instead of a gent.

I considered, and rejected, what MrW's suggests a week ago, and for the reasons I stated. Now, will you, in turn, consider what I showed you? If you disagree with me, what troll-like things has Zog done?

No, need to apologize for mistaking my sex.

I have considered what you've said and your POV.

Which is why I said, I thought you were acting w/ integrity.

I am divided on this issue.

I side w/ Bob Pure's position that those seeking help for their "AM" ought to do so, elsewhere.

And I agree w/ much of what you say, Biblically.

And I am concerned w/ what Mr. W is concerned about.

~ Marsh
Marriagecare ( click here) Are excellent but I warn you are catholic sponsored so you might get a even sterner an [censored] kicking from them than you got here.

You can try intervewing more relate counsellors. I saw three, and one of them was half decent. The other two were worthy middle class grads. Useless.

Not being funny but Relate are probably going to be your least judgmental option and well, folks like Together Alone from the UK swears by them. Try more counsellors. You don't have to use your local branch either.

Also their appraoch of salvaging the practical parts of a relationship, rather than restoring the "magic" like MB may well work better than MB. I wasn't taking the p1ss before when I said MB probably wouldn't work for you two.

Dr Harley will work on A-marriages, clearly, but he tells anyone that will listen that its much much harder owing to the circumstances of their initiation. Read the thing Cherished posted on GQ2 for example.
Quote
ManfromFog:
.
Thanks Chobbs - posted my last before your message appeared. I have tried counselling, solo and joint and with 2 counsellors but I'm not sure it's been very helpful Relate is the main organisation for this in UK (formerly Marriage Guidance Council) and I'm not sure we have the same level of choice as you seem to have in the US. Relate don't seem committed to preserving marriages and simply reflect back what you tell them, like the average business consultant.
On reflection it seems I should have let it hit the fan rather than enable the "home club" event to continue. A short Plan A is what I was thinking.

It is interesting that ManFromFog brought up the Relate Counselling just now. I found the above highlighted language suspicious. When you go to the Relate website it says on the history page that it hasn't been called the "Marriage Guidance Council" since, off the top of my head, 1980. Pretty out there fact to add.

I found such detail/fact to be extraneous and suspicious. It's what liars do...providing extra details to make a yarn more believable.

Additionally, in case one didn't know, TOW is a UK website. All the posting times are on UK time. I was emailed that little nugget. I don't know why Longhorn presumes a troll would have revealled themselves by now. She/he has been soooo successful to date, why??? Only now is He/she getting called on it.

Last point...read the thread. ManFromFog does not come across as a 58 year old person at all. Which makes the 28 year old figure odd when you also consider the fact he gave away his paid for house and all his money (which he indicated he had saved PRIOR to his first marraige) as being that plausible. Conceivable yes, credible. Who knows? I can only guess.

I'm not stating this as a fact, merely my opinion. This is an opinion/discussion board after all and we have been targeted by trolls many times before. Besides I'm being ignored when I was one of the MOST helpful constructive poster on this thread.

Mr. Wondering
This is an opinion/discussion board after all and we have been targeted by trolls many times before.


Lol, did you see where I confessed thinking YOU a troll??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
KnewBetter:

Actually No...I have you on ignore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Justkiddin'

I've revealled a couple times I no longer practice much Tax Law. I'm sort of retired.

My wife and I own some businesses now. Our presence is required a lot of times...but often times we can sit in our office and post periodically and other days...all day, whenever we want. Our working hours are strange too...we are open late into the evenings.

I always snicker when somebody posts that everyone here is a hypocrite because we obviously post at work "stealing" company time. I find our boss (us) doesn't mind us posting at all.

We are considering selling the businesses, moving out of Michigan and then going into divorce law. It's a gruesome area of the law much like bankruptcy law. I would consider a my own small boutique firm that ONLY represents BS's. Of course, I wouldn't represent affairriages either but they would likely be a HUGE moneymaker, maybe I just charge them double. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nah, I don't NEED the money to live on...so I could afford to be very selective and I think word of mouth about such integrity would spread fairly fast. Problem is...not as much flexibility like owning a business where you can generally come and go as you please AND I wasn't fond of litigation back in the days I was with a big law firm and had to cover. It's a lot of sitting around waiting on judges for 10 minutes of actual work...then you're supposed to bill the client for 4,5,6 or even 8 hours depending how long we had to wait (while the whole time working on other files and billing those clients for a couple hours here and there as well...that's the game I experienced in big firms...bill 'em and then bill'em some more. Their mantra..."you are paid to read, wait, think and speak, whenever you read, wait, think and/or speak about any client it must be billed"). I was very happy to be out of that racket.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I forgot you're supposed to bill drive time AND think while driving.
Mr W,

I hate to point this out, but if you add 28 to 1979, you get 2007 which by my reconning is close to when Zog's marriage broke up. Suggesting that he may well be acquainted with both terms.

I hate conspiracy theories, because they NEVER lead anywhere just a waste of time.

Mr. W I like what you have to say, and Mrs. W as well. I have no problem talking to WS or BS. Some people bother me and clearly I cannot help so I stay out of their threads.

I wonder why this thread has taken this turn. Zog admitted up front how his marriage started, and clearly you BP and others have every right to abstain from helping him. However, this site does not limit who posts here and who can get help IF anyone wants to help them.

So why are all still posting here, if they have decided they will not help Zog? Opinions have been stated and duly noted. What is going on here? What is your goal?

JL

PS: I also don't care much for witch hunts and this seems to have turned into one. First Zog cannot be helped because his marriage began as an affair, and now he is a troll. The first was no secret, and the second is just idle conjecture.
clearly you BP and others

JL, I TRULY BELIEVE my posts to Mr Zog are helpful.

They may not appear to be politically correct, but to offer hope that MB will work in his situation as it does in marriages with a somewhat sturdier foundation is unfair IMO.

I really do think that the pragmatic counselling of Relate in the UK will be best for his situation.

What attracted Mrs Zog to Zog was his OM-attributes. His ability to meet her needs in the way an OM does : devoid of practical burdens, in something of a fantasy world, like almost all affairs are.

That their subsequent marriage, once practical burdens DID manifest was by his admission somewhat flat and passionless seems to reinfornce this view IMO.

So now, mrs Zog has her "needs" for fantasy affair-ENs met by another OM.

How can the workaday practical Zog out OM the new OM ?

To apply Dr Harleys methods here is to give false hope IMO JL.

Please think about it. MB can help a BS become the best spouse they can be, but mrs Zog is clearly rapt by the attributes of an OM who does for her what Zog did back in the day. There are no tick boxes on the Harley EN questionnaire for OM attributes.

Thats why I posted. Not all apparrently negative advice actually is negative.
It is clear (because of IGNORE) that I am not relevant to the "debate" here. For those trying to squeeze in some help, thanks for persisting.
I did not want to appear to defend my actions of decades ago - that WOULD be offensive to the kind folks here. I was once provoked into stating what I tried to do to offset the harm but have now been asked to apologise to my XW. Let me explain why I cannot.

XW and I agreed NC between us 30 years ago, mainly to protect her from any further vacillations. By that time she had another man in her life, though I still proceeded with donating my assets to her in acknowledgement that I had initiated the whole thing. About 5 years after the decree absolute she called my office, using her new married name, to congratulate me on a business success that had made the news. Apart from that there has been NO CONTACT. We have no friends, relatives or anything in common. I have no idea where she lives nor any details of her life for over 20 years. To track her down to apologise would break an undertaking and might resurrect bad memories for her.
Your loss mate. I gave you good advice.

oh sorry

** you are ignoring this user **
Longhorn - thanks for the Churchill quote, makes me feel at home. You are right about telling the children when things are stronger (hopefully). By the way, WW asked me to email OM he needed a different helper for the next hobby event - a good sign, but possibly a double bluff of course.

Any suggestions/comments on my Plan A, as follows please?
1. Doing lots of "together things" that I now initiate (an LB failing previously). Probably a bit too intensive to maintain at this level, which anyway might get a bit wearing for her.
2. Remembering to live more "in the moment", enjoying who I'm with rather than solving unrelated problems in my mind - a habit developed when overworking (and another LB).
3. Staying fit and healthy, though that was never a problem.
4. Just being more aware and appreciative of all the good things in my life.

By the way, what do folks think about introducing WW to SAA? Is it too soon? Should I just leave it lying around and see if she picks it up? It would, of course, mean she might see there's a plan, including a Plan B!
By the way, the British Museum trip was a great success. We met our DS in town for lunch first, finding him happy with his job, girlfriend and work. Our DD came over for dinner afterwards so a whole day of good things occurred.
By the way Believer, DD thinks that dress I bought should be fine - they sometimes share clothes so their tastes are similar.
Posted By: Suzet* Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/01/07 01:02 PM
Quote
I have no idea where she lives nor any details of her life for over 20 years. To track her down to apologise would break an undertaking and might resurrect bad memories for her.
MFZ, but in spite of you and your XW’s No Contact agreement she DID contacted you 5 years after that to congratulate you on the business success… She viewed that as a big enough exception to break the agreement, so how much MORE reason YOU have now to make an exception to sincerely apologize to your XW. That can be a very healing and necessary step for both you and your XW you know... It’s NEVER too late to apologize…and from personal experience I can tell you that if there is bad memories from ones past (even of 20 or 30 years ago), the unresolved issues & pain of such memories will remain whether or not a person is consciously reminded of those memories or not. But an apology (if it's meant sincerely) can be very healing and can help a person getting pass a traumatic event (even if the event occured years ago)... Maybe, just maybe...that's what your XW needs... Who knows?

Therefore, I suggest tracking down a postal address for you XW and send her a letter where you shortly tell her that you have now for the first time due to circumstances in your life, started to realize how much pain you’ve caused her 28 years ago and that you sincerely want to apologize to her. Make it clear to her that you still want to respect the agreement between you, but that you felt it was necessary to contact her for this purpose. Then leave her a postal address where she can respond to you in case she wants to acknowledge your letter (also state that in your letter), but that is totally up to her.
Zog,

I wanted to share something with you from personal experience. Ten years after my first husband left me (and started dating my "friends"), we ran into each other at a music concert. He apologized for his past actions and the harm he knew he had done to me. I cannot tell you the burden of pain that was lifted in that moment, the lightness of being that occurred. I felt as though a great deal of bitterness and bad memories faded and lost their power to keep hurting me. I was already remarried and had two beautiful children....and a happy life....but those words still had great healing power for me even after ten years.

You may not think your XW would want to hear those words....but I wanted to share what they meant to me. I think if you really want to end the affair-dynamics in your marriage, and if you want it to be uncompromised and tainted from the past (at least from your end, because your wife would need to do this process as well)....that you need to whatever is possible to heal the wounds from the past.

I've told you how healing it was for me....but my XH told me how healing it was for him too. He said that he had wanted to say those words to me for a long time, and the relief was actually visisble on his face.

Something to think about.
Suzet/star*fish - OK, I'll see what I can find. If I guess the area/town I might find something.
Posted By: Suzet* Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/01/07 02:17 PM
Good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thank you both, your personal experience was crucial star*fish. I guess any hurt would be minimal now but the chance of making some amends, however slight, is worthwhile.
Initially tricky to find her as I didn't know her location. Then remembered her horse-riding and eventing hobby and got lucky through that. Amazing what a difference the Internet makes. I hope I've got the right person (!) but I'm pretty confident I have. I am now drafting a few ideas.
I strongly suggest you to post that letter before you send it. We can help you de-fog it so at least your former BW may THINK it's sincere. We are this far along and star*fish and others have to talk you into it after you disclose your xw contacted you 23 years ago to congratulate you on a business deal. Then again, maybe she contacted you fishing for an apology or an opening to steal you back. Was she flirty or clingy and needy???

Since ManFromFog is ignoring me, he may just have to come back to this later or someone else can copy paste.

Mr. Wondering
ManFromFog:

Again assuming you are real...I've got another thought on this letter to your XW.

In my opinion, we (the collective we at MB) should not advise you on content. This letter shouldn't be something you scribble down in a few minutes. YOU really need to think about this one. Go deep. Express yourself.

This letter is between you, God and your ex-wife. NOT us. YOU are writing it as an act of repentence, which is NOT something you should get too much help on from the internet. That would cheapen it. Speak with God, counsel with your pastor/minister...whatever, just don't have other people actually write it.

Post it, yes. But, specifically seek a yes or no vote on it. If it's bad...YOU go back and try again. WE shouldn't help write this for you (that includes Longhorn by email).

YOU are hereby challenged.

Mr. Wondering
Sorry, I don’t mean to muddy the waters and I haven’t been able to catch up on any other responses but as a ex wife myself it would be disruptive to receive a apologetic missive from my XWH. After 25 years of no contact I’d be wondering why on earth he was thinking of me at all and I’m sure my husband would be none too thrilled either. Star, that was pretty neat that your ex was able to express his remorse but accidentally running into someone is entirely different from hunting them down on the Internet and leaving contact info to boot. That just invites more contact and what’s the point? Given the situation with Zog’s marriage right now it could reflect poorly on him.

Zog, if you really feel like this is something you want to do could you just get delivery confirmation or something like it (don’t know the English version) and leave it at that? No contact info, just an apology if you must.

I also had a thought about the idea that your marriage is somehow different than any other at the onset. Most if not all couples marry on the fumes of courtship… passionate, hopeful for the future and on their best behavior. Reality sets in when Dreamboat can’t manage to throw his socks in the hamper and Suzie Homemaker turns out to be not so much. The birth of children causes HUGE changes in a relationship. This site has had hundreds if not thousands of men complaining about lack of SF after children arrive.

Affair marriages may have the added burden of adjusting to blended families, possible financial pressures, legal problems with exs and so forth but it doesn’t sound like these were a consideration in your sitch Zog. Honestly, I think what you and your wife went through in your earlier years is par for the course for most married couples…nothing new under the sun.

Plan A helps you to be the very best you so that your wife can fall back in love with you again. This idea that b/c you started as an affair it somehow means that what is happening now , that she still looking for a nebulous “OM” so you can’t compete is nonsense. If that was the case none of the MB advice would be valid. Almost 30 years of living together since your young courtship means you have to step it up a bit that’s all. She can recover her feelings for you, you can recover your marriage, but it’s work…be diligent, be patient. Be your youthful charming best as you were in the beginning as described in Plan A. You can sort most all the other stuff out later.

P.S. Mr. W, it would be interesting if you did try Family Law on for size…that’s quite a departure from the tax gig.. Good luck!
Quote
Almost 30 years of living together since your young courtship means you have to step it up a bit that’s all.

IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a normal "courtship" and an "adulterous relationship". I know you know better, knew better. Knowing you I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't quite mean to pretty much call it the same thing. A three party relationship dynamic, a wife, husband and mistress is leaps and bounds different than one man, one woman...dating.

Although the circumstances MAY lead one to believe the damage done was minimal, I'm sure those 8 months that ManFromFog waffled and cake ate living at home AND continuing to decide between his wife and his adulterous affair partner was NO cup of tea for his ex-wife. Sure the scars may have healed...but a heartfelt apology and repentence is still due and owing.

Further...I think that MOF's damage and pain he visited upon his xw far exceeds the pain HE's enduring (though others have attributed a great deal of pain to him...he's not really expressed any). MOF certainly can grasp that this is the karma bus on a return trip. He KNEW his wife was an adulterer before and thus knew she'd do it again...potentially. His xw was, I'm betting, young and idealistic. She was CRUSHED by this and it likely has affected/effected the rest of her life.

As far as the letter of repentence...God didn't give us an out on the act/condition of repentence IF you feel that recepient wouldn't care anymore. God directs us to repent. If she doesn't care...at least HE wrote the letter and actually followed up repentent words (which despite others claims he's said them here a bunch I haven't actually seen many other than paying her off in the divorce settlement...which sounded like guilt, not repentence) with repentent ACTIONS.

Just my opinion...no "covert agression" intended

Mr. Wondering
Hi, MFZ. I think you can start approaching your wife with HNHN or SAA but it has to be done carefully and gently. You have some degree of commitment from her and it would be best, I think, to build on that by using POJA tactics. How about broaching the subject and be very sensitive if she begins to become uncomfortable. It’s very, very soon to be talking relationship and if you push it, she’ll back away. Coaxing her into doing the EN list might be a great first start.

Doing the things you’ve mentioned in your Plan A seems fine to me. What additional things can you do to make yourself a man among men to dazzle and attract your spouse? I believe what you are already doing plus anything else you can think of, coupled with courtesy and consideration for your wife, can be highly effective. I think it may be too soon for overt affection, but use all your observational skills to judge when it’s appropriate. When she can accept it, I think you should offer.

Can you expand the number of hours a week you spend with your wife? Review Dr. Harley’s suggestions in this area. He recommends at least 15 hours of “quality” time to concentrate on each other every week.

Also, since the holiday season is coming up, can you set up a nice, long holiday (notice I didn’t use the American word, “vacation”) to…heck, anywhere you and your wife can concentrate strictly on a happy holiday and on each other? This is also something Dr. Harley recommends.

I think it’s a positive step that your wife asked YOU to email the OM about him needing a new helper. Do you really feel it might be deceptive, or are you just making sure you don’t get too optimistic too quickly? Did you suggest to your wife that she make it a formal NC communication? It might be an opening for you.

I’d like to reiterate my suggestion you consider using the Harleys for MC. I know the time zone is a big barrier, but Steve Harley would be so good for you two. He’s worked wonders with so many marriages that have been in trouble. Click on the “Counseling Center” button at the top of every MB page and take a look at what they offer. Their thoughts about phone counseling versus face-to-face sessions are encouraging. Dr. Harley doesn’t even DO anything but phone counseling any longer. Give it strong consideration, okay?

Hang in there, MFZ. Things are headed in the right direction.
IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a normal "courtship" and an "adulterous relationship". I know you know better, knew better. Knowing you I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't quite mean to pretty much call it the same thing. A three party relationship dynamic, a wife, husband and mistress is leaps and bounds different than one man, one woman...dating.

Yes of course. I just realized I look upon this from the outside… I have no experience with marrying a OP but still I can’t imagine the internal thought process is any different from a nonA marriage. My point is that people don’t think they are marry “OP’s” they marry a person….Everyone starts out with hope and passion, excepting gold diggers, mail order brides, citizenship seekers most likely.

ALL marriages regardless of start are guaranteed to be touched by trials and tribulations. The honeymoon phase must end, children cause shifts in a marriage, we get ill, older and so on. Infidelity can enter the equation but it is still a potentially fixable situation, we know this.

I suppose I was struck by a post (can’t remember who) that inferred that Zog had no hope of recovering b/c his boring old self just couldn’t compete with "exciting" OM. That’s just antiMB, not true at all. I have to go get much blonder in a few minutes so please forgive if I misunderstood your point, I don’t have time to get into the rest and I probably completely rambled, sorry!
Quote
Almost 30 years of living together since your young courtship means you have to step it up a bit that’s all.

If I remember correctly, nearly 1/3 of those 30 blissful years Man From Fog's serial cheating wife has been having her affair.

Just to level set. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Almost 30 years of living together since your young courtship means you have to step it up a bit that’s all.


Also, it wasn't a "courtship". MFF has told us it was an adulterous affair.

Can you imagine if we started calling all adulterous affairs on this board "courtships"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,
Jo
*** You are ignoring this user ***
KB - Hmm, that's interesting; I think I'll keep revising my draft letter anyway but I'll think very carefully before sending it. It was either BobPure or Mr W who wrote that stuff - I can't check any more.
Longhorn - I take your points about SAA and going too fast at present on the emotional stuff. Time together is OK and we have a few days in Cornwall soon. A holiday in Ireland is a possibility, I know she wants to go there. ("Holiday" indeed, you'll be applying for British citizenship next!)
I have no reason to suspect a bluff on the substitute helper, just paranoia I guess.
Hmmm.....I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Mr. W. Repentence, compensation, remorse, redemption.....those things have nothing to do with anyone except the person seeking to find them. If they are rebuked....well, that's part and parcel of the process.

KB, I know a WS who married her affair partner. The FBS and this OW/WS had children together, but deep animosity, and a horrible relationship that lasted for fifteen years. As part of dealing with the affair dynamics that had plagued her new (compromised from the start) A-marriage....she reached out and gave this man some (for lack of a better term, even though it's psychobabble) CLOSURE. For the first time in 15 years....these two parents could help co-parent their children without all the baggage and pain. It's truly amazing how revealing that she had recently become of the victim of the same thing she victimized her husband with. Maybe she never truly understood....but I'm glad once she did....that she told him. They actually joined families for Thanksgiving. Now I know that is probably not the norm....it is true...I swear.

The other personal experience that I have....my father married his affair partner and has been married for 18 years. I have twin half-siblings. I honestly believe that my parents (despite the volatility of their relationship) never really intended to divorce....they just got caught up in the "threats" and drama that was the hallmark of their passionate but flawed marriage. In fact at my mother's funeral....my father said weeping "This was never supposed to happen" and I don't believe it was....and I don't believe he'll ever be truly happy.

Even after they were divorced....my parents talked to each other almost every day.....might sound strange....but I do think they were the real loves of each other's lives. They became the friends (EA) that they had lost while they abused each other.

Shortly after my mom got cancer, my fathers A-wife delivered twins. I'm not sure who made the first move, but the combination of the new life and the inevitability of my mother's death....created a reaching out on both sides. Both my dad who is a doctor and the OW who was a nurse came night or day during the darkest hours to help my mother cope with the pain and make sure I had the resources to take care of her. (and yes.....I struggled greatly with my feelings that the OW was like a "vulture" waiting in the wings for my mother's death).

But please understand that I've never met anyone who could match the graciousness of my mother. We talked about our feelings about my father's marriage as she neared death. She made me promise not to hold onto hate, she begged me to watch out for my new siblings. She loved those little babies and she embraced them....not an easy feat....but heartfelt. There was a lot of healing that went on because everyone got to talk about what happened, despite the tragedy.

I realize these things seem strange....but with some searching....I'm sure folks can dig up the fact that I've posted about some of this before....it's not new or invented.

Mr. W is right.....if Zog is sincere about dealing with the "affair" part and moving forward in the "marriage" part....he has two fronts to deal with....the past....and the present. I'm not sure Zog can do anything that will truly satisfy anyone who will always see his marriage as an affair....but it's just as hard for some us to accept FWS's as "former", yanno?

It DOES happen....there ARE WSs onn this board that have "earned" the "F" in their title. Are there A-marriages that can earn their "M"....I dunno, but for me....it can't be done without some closure towards their victims. I can't remember a time where finally being vindicated didn't matter to me.
Oh Star, I do remember you posting your Mom’s story…it is such a testament to the woman she was, no wonder you turned out so great! I agree that closure is a good thing but I personally don’t need it. It was all a long time ago and I have built a great life without him. We didn’t have children (same as Zog) so that does make a huge difference in my opinion. Not all people are so lucky and contact is necessary. It’s odd but all this thinking about a very long ago marriage is making me feel old!

It is really my thought that all exs need to be held at arms length, there is too much room for error and mischief. Zog needs to consider all angles, I trust he’ll figure it out.

Sorry all that the use of the word courtship in my earlier posts caused consternation. I didn’t intend it that way I was in such a hurry, but it does extend the idea that people involved with people don’t use labels, tags and terms as we do on MB to define themselves or their situations. We use a lingo, a shorthand for the different roles we (willingly or not) play. We have a different "worldview" of infidelity than other people. The good part about being familiar with the MB program is that we have hope.

It is always my hope that those who are working the MB program, those who are in recovery and beyond don’t carry the mental tags of BS/WS FBS/FWS OM/OW/OP forever. We can be and in most cases are all so much more than that after all. This is an interesting thread and I have great hope for Zog and his wife. Zog, you don’t realize this but your thread has actually managed to entice me a tiny bit out of MB semi-retirement <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
MFZ, with respect to everyone, I understand there may be some therapeutic value to you and to your ex-wife if you reach out to her to apologize and put paid to that period in your life. However, it’s been 30-odd years, and I think it can wait a little while longer.

Friend, as you’ve read in other threads, my ex-wife had an affair and subsequently married her partner in the affair. All this took place 34 years ago this month; we’ve been legally divorced 33 ½ years now. I was 25 when we divorced; she was 24. Frankly, MFZ, if she came to me today and apologized, it wouldn’t mean a thing to me because she’s…I don’t know exactly how to phrase this…well, she’s just not quite real to me anymore.

Far more than half my life has been spent divorced from her – I don’t even know what she looks like because I haven’t seen her in over 20 years. I doubt she’s the slim blond girl she was when we divorced. I’m certainly not the guy I was -- you know how that is. Once our kids got into their teens, there was no need to even talk to her, and I haven’t in so long I wouldn’t know her voice if I heard it. If she walked up to me on the street, I wouldn’t know to whom I was talking. Nothing she would say would be quite relevant to who I am now, and to be reminded of the bad times just wouldn’t have any beneficial effect.

I suggest you work on saving your current marriage and put any resolution with your ex-wife that you might feel necessary on the back burner. Deal with the more acute problem first and solve it before tackling one that has lain dormant for 28 years. If you run into her accidentally some day as in the examples, fine. Let it come from the heart.

But I’d wait until the present problems are identified and dealt with before reaching out to address ancient history. Not right now. Until you and your wife are well into recovery, perhaps for several years, I just would “let sleeping dogs lie,” as the saying goes. Perhaps at some point in your future, you and your wife can work as a couple to resolve those long-ago issues together. That might be a good way for her to resolve things inside herself too.
Posted By: Orchid Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/02/07 08:06 PM
Quote
...It DOES happen....there ARE WSs onn this board that have "earned" the "F" in their title. Are there A-marriages that can earn their "M"....I dunno, but for me....it can't be done without some closure towards their victims. I can't remember a time where finally being vindicated didn't matter to me.

Starfish,

Your post really stood out and hope it clarifies this issue for many. You said it succinctly. Also, your moving experience also shows us how one can cope even through the darkest of times.

Thank you for your post. I know it took great effort but want you to know it is greatly appreciated.

Mahalo,
L.
Quote
I suggest you work on saving your current marriage and put any resolution with your ex-wife that you might feel necessary on the back burner. Deal with the more acute problem first and solve it before tackling one that has lain dormant for 28 years. If you run into her accidentally some day as in the examples, fine. Let it come from the heart.

I'm very surprised at you Longhorn.

So saving his arriage, right now, is more important than his relationship with Christ, more important than eternity. ManFromFog isn't promised tomorrow. Repentence takes more than just giving his exwife a home and some money. Do you truly believe he's good with God right now???

Further, I agree with Star (wow...lol), taking care of the past is a good first step for the future. He's got to turn his WH status from his first marriage into a FWH before he can ever hope to claim for himself his BH status right now.

But, of course, MFF can't hear this argument because you emailed him and told him to ignore me (which is obvious because you begged him to email you after he stated emphatically he wouldn't ingore anyone...then, 12 hours later or so...he's ignoring everyone). Real nice. His loss. Fortunately, I post for me and others that might be reading along.

Still think ManFromFog is a troll. It's only idle conjecture if I'm wrong. I also don't post to this thread until it's bumped to the top...so accusations that I'm keeping it going are futile.

Mr. Wondering
I have written a draft but I'm sure you're right Longhorn - this should not be done hastily, it needs to be done right.
I have a solo appointment tomorrow with an MC (from “Relate”). WW would attend if I insist but is not keen. She has always objected to “talking to strangers” so this is not an unexpected attitude. I am inclined not to insist (PoJA?) but to take things slowly. I will try the “emotional needs” ranking next, if she’ll cooperate.
WW said today that things are happening “on your terms, as they always have in our marriage”. I think she was referring to me having control because of the “threat” of exposure to our children (I’m almost tempted to expose simply to remove this perception). I don’t think I’ve particularly had things on my terms previously.
Specifically the discussion arose because she is not sleeping well at present. Apparently I was snoring a bit last night (because I’d had a few beers with a friend that evening). When I asked why she hadn’t gone to a spare bed she said “I didn’t think I was allowed to.” I explained that my only “terms” were that there should be just the two of us in our marriage (my limit) and that I was simply focusing on being more the kind of husband I would want if I were in her shoes – I wasn’t threatening or demanding and she should tell me when she thought I was. She said she needed time to adjust to the idea that I even wanted her to stay.
In the meantime things are seemingly going OK. Mainly normal to friendly relations; goodbye, welcome back and goodnight hugs (we didn’t do that before); and a good amount of time together (I haven’t counted but would think it amounts to 15 hours a week).
I’m inclined not to do much (except Plan A stuff) or discuss our marriage too much but to give things time. Any thoughts?
Well, that sounds pretty good to me, MFZ. She's resentful and is letting you know it, but most withdrawals are quite a bit more contentious.

Quote
“I didn’t think I was allowed to.”

Quote
She said she needed time to adjust to the idea that I even wanted her to stay.

Two key points, I think. She’s resentful, and that may be all of it, but she may also be “telling” you that you may have not always have been as considerate of her feelings as you might have. I’ve seen that happen in many long-term marriages. You know…I think she’ll react very positively to POJA. I think she’ll appreciate the fact that you aren’t, in fact, issuing orders around the house as she sometimes perceives, but that you want to work WITH her on the issues.

Hmmmmmm, would you describe yourself as a hard-driving businessman?

Anyway, the second statement is a caution to go slow, but she seems to be accepting the concept instead of rejecting it.

Keep up those 15 hours of alone time, and don’t forget the holidays where you two can focus on each other. I think doing a strong Plan A and doing what you’ve said are the best things you can do.

You haven’t said it, but you apparently understand things didn’t get sour in your relationship overnight and things won’t get fixed quickly either. You’re showing good patience. Good work.
Thanks Longhorn. Sometimes I feel resentment at the childishness of her attitude but knowledge of my own past mistakes perhaps makes it easier to bear.
I wouldn't describe myself as a hard-driving businessman but can become determined to see things through. I think a problem she has with me is that my upbringing was one of constant debate and I still find it hard to leave ideas only partially explored when we talk. That's why it might be better to write her notes sometimes.
Yes, I have always accepted 50% of the responsibility for the state of our relationship (since the early days of our marriage) but always argued against accepting 100%. I honestly feel it has always cut both ways. But I could have risen above it and tried to be the husband I am now trying to be.
MFZ,

About the 50% of your marriage...and not accepting responsibility for the 100%...we can easily focus on this...and forget to ask ourselves...

Am I giving 100% priority, focus and effort to my half of the marriage?

Is that what you mean? If we're busy measuring the percentages of our partners, there's no way we're minding our half, is there?

Not rising above anything...by being true to yourself, your half.

LA
Affairs don't last...I suggest you accept that FACT, and let this go...Allow yourself to go through the he[i][/i]ll of withdrawal...TURN FROM YOUR SIN, REPENT, GO AND SIN NO MORE...

You know what strikes me as so odd in all of this? When I came here as a WS, which, btw is WHAT ManFromFog IS, no one encouraged me to continue MY AFFAIR...THANK GOD...I mean seriously, when I got here I was hurting, just like MFF...OM had dumped me afterall...Why is it that none of you "good samaritans" did nothing to help me recover my affair?

Just Wondering...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
MFZ,

That statement "I didn't think I was allowed to." from an analytical standpoint has quite a load.


My job is analysis of communications.

So, from that one statement, I will offer you this. I have not fully read your thread, and do not know your wife's position at all. But I will give you some insight about this type of statement when given in response to the type of question you asked.

This response is offered to provoke an in-depth conversation about your behavior. In this case, she wanted to explore what I would guess is behavior that in the past she sees as quite controlling. You should know that she was wanting to let you know that she is feeling that she has to ask permission for basic tasks, tasks that she feels are ordinary. She has said this in provocation, it is overstated, yes, but the underlying thinking on her part is that she is being restrained and she is feeling that she should not be so restricted in her life.

The statement was made to provoke you, either into an argument, or into a discussion - your reaction would make the difference here.

YOUR reaction is the key, remember that. She followed it with something interesting, being that remorseful statement about being surprised that you would have her there. She has communicated to you here that she does have a measure of guilt and remorse over her behavior. That was your second opening, where she told you she feels badly for hurting you. She does want to talk about what is happening on a deeper level.

There are two things going on in her mind: she has some anger or issue over what she sees as feeling controlled or bossed by you, and she also feels badly about her current behavior.

On the whole, this shows movement in the right direction, I think, because she is wanting to talk about it.

Tread lightly though, because she is angry. How you two go about talking will hold the key.

SB
Posted By: Owl Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/06/07 09:31 PM
Quote
You know what strikes me as so odd in all of this? When I came here as a WS, which, btw is WHAT ManFromFog IS, no one encouraged me to continue MY AFFAIR...THANK GOD...I mean seriously, when I got here I was hurting, just like MFF...OM had dumped me afterall...Why is it that none of you "good samaritans" did nothing to help me recover my affair?

Perhaps because you were still married to MrW at the time you came here? And that your marriage to him was still recoverable? You WERE a WS to him at the time...you were still his spouse, and you were wayward.

MFZ is no longer married to his EX-wife. He's not her "wayward spouse"...he's not her spouse at all. Nor has he been so for over 28 years. At this point, he IS in an 'arriage' as ya'll like to call it. But he's got nothing to do with his ex at this point, and the use of focusing on a 28 year over marriage is nil. Nothing to be done there.

So the "good samaritans" as you call them are posting to him in the hopes of helping him fix the marriage that its in front of us. The one that IS recoverable.

Telling him to work on that old marriage is pointless.

Question...disregarding that this marriage is an "arriage" for just a second...

At what point does the 'marriage' end with a divorcing couple? We've told countless people that they don't date until the divorce goes through...because THAT is when the marriage is over. Right?

Just because his previous marriage ended in divorce (EVEN DUE TO HIS AFFAIR) doesn't change that, does it? I personally don't understand the distinction. If a marriage ends at divorce...it ends at divorce, right?

If that's NOT the case, why would we caution people NOT to have contact with a former ex? If the marriage continues on after the divorce, then it wouldn't be infidelity if the ORIGINAL marital partners hook up, right? Of course, that's just horse puckey...we know better than that.

So when does a marriage end? It shouldn't matter WHAT the cause of the end is, it's still ended at divorce, no?

Wanted to add an additional question...If MFZ's ex-wife is remarried now...is she cheating on him?
Posted By: Owl Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/06/07 09:37 PM
What would we tell a 'FWS' who showed up here wanting to re-connect with their FBS after a divorce due to the affair, if that FBS was re-married? If someone had an affair, divorced their BS, but then later decided to rekindle that relationship with the (now) FBS, but found that the FBS was happily remarried?

We'd tell them that they ruined their marriage, that that marriage is over and they need to deal with the consequences of their wayward actions, right?
Owl,

The reverse is an actual poster here on MB currently...vicker...she divorced her WH really fast upon finding out about his affair...and he married OW. Then BW had an affair with him. People here advised her to stop the affair and tell OW (just had an acronymic crisis with what to call her...XOW...MOW...BWOW...comes close to bow-wow, eh?).

This real case was a condundrum...because we don't really see his new marriage as legit...and I ran up against advising her to pursue him in anyway because he's still wayward...and she was wayward (proudly stopped the affair and exposed, thank goodness)...

And I offer this to you, Owl, for consideration. This isn't a 28 year affairage...this is, I think, two years from when she filed for divorce. I could be wrong. Close.

And I do think that vicker and her XWH have to deal with the consequences of their wayward choices...only I choked at advising her, got myself in a quandry...her best interests (awesome ownership)...and what marriage I would be a friend of...only her original one. Couldn't get myself to support that one given the creephood of the other half of it...

LA
Listen Owl, my whole point was, that AFFAIRS END...MFF IS in an AFFAIR...Those END...Withdrawal ensues...I NEVER told him to go and reconcile with his BW...I'm just saying, that he needs to accept that his 28 YEAR AFFAIR IS OVER...He needs to begin PERSONAL recovery, NOT "marital" recovery, IMO...

Mrs. W
Very insightful and interesting post, Schoolbus.

MFZ, I suspect that Schoolbus has identified some important points you should address in your relationship with your wife. You might call yourself "determined," instead of a “hard driving businessman,” but the line between the two is very, very thin when you’re talking about personal interaction. If you bring your negotiating and supervisory techniques home with you from the office, you can inadvertently blast someone else’s world and never notice.

Something many people never understand is how they are perceived by other people because we rarely get any feedback. Your wife is trying to give you that feedback, and Schoolbus and I (to a lesser extent) are also. Frankly, just from your posts today, I can see if you aren't careful in choosing your words when you’re interacting with your wife, she can easily interpret some of your behavior as controlling. Be on guard against that, okay?

Schoolbus has shown you how you can interpret the motivations behind things your wife tells you. Were I you, I'd pay close attention to what Schoolbus has told you. Figuring out what other folks are thinking is extremely difficult, but if you pay attention, you can get a strong hint as to what is on their minds by picking up on key phrases.

I agree. Your wife is sending you messages you need to pick up on and explore. It’s not too late to go back to them either. A simple, “Honey, I’ve been thinking about what you said about...” will suffice. Now, pardner, be careful to leave the determined businessman out of those discussions. You’re just a man and a woman speaking together.

BTW, her willingness to discuss things relating to the affair can be used to coax her out of her distress about talking about problems before strangers and get her involved with you in MC. For instance, you can begin by admitting to some things you know you haven’t been as good at in your marriage as you might wish. Then you can turn the discussion to one where you hope someday you and she can speak in a non-threatening forum to discover what additional things you could become better at...things in which you aren’t even aware of a deficiency. Hit it once, and move on. People’s feelings don’t change in one day, but the seed can be planted and cultivated on another day.

MFZ, I’m getting an impression communication between you and your wife hasn’t been of the highest quality, probably for a long time. It’s a difficulty one sees in many marriages, even when it’s lasted 28 years. I suspect if you work on communication and yourself while you continue a sterling Plan A, you’ll find the task of recovering your marriage to be that much easier.

********

Schoolbus, your expertise is a valuable resource here on MB. Please lend us your knowledge whenever and wherever you can, okay? I often see hints of messages one spouse is sending another in the threads out here, but I don’t have your training.

Thanks again, lady. I think your perceptive comments are “spot on” as MFZ’s British neighbors say.
I can't join (or read most of) the great AM debate but is there a good reason to change my moniker to ManFromFrog?
LA: Yes, when she complained I used to counter with my own grievances - stalemate. I'm trying not to react to everything she says but focus on what I can DO. I need practice at not pursuing "debates" too far. [P.S. I have been legally married for 28 years, together for 30 - the decree absolute took 2 years prior.]
SB: I don't think I've been controlling - she always enjoyed great freedom - but I think she feels dominated in discussion/argument.
She feels restrained now in respect of her right to continue her affair and keep her marriage/lifestyle. And this also affects her hobby - I haven't asked her to give it up but it's impractical to continue it and agree no contact as he is the "main man" in this country for the activity. I'm not really sure the hobby by itself (i.e. without OM) is so important, she has many other interests.
She may have some remorse but still communicates entitlement (perhaps less than before). Her surprise at my wanting her to stay she expresses not as "in view of my affair" but "because I didn't think you cared".
Anyway thanks (and Longhorn), I get the message about HOW we talk - she probably thinks I just like winning arguments (it's not my intention).
Quote
I think she feels dominated in discussion/argument

I believe you can count on it! And your solution is_________?



Quote
...she has many other interests...

Can you two get involved in another hobby together?



Quote
...because I didn't think you cared...

Exactly! She's telling you that you weren't meeting her emotional needs, MFZ. You've got the key now, MFZ. What are you going to do with it, sir?



Quote
...she probably thinks I just like winning arguments...

Okay, so who had the last word in the last three arguments before your discovery of the hobby affair? I'm going to bet your wife would say you did, whether you did or not. It's all about perception, mister, and she perceives you in that way. Again, what are you going to do about that?


You have multiple opportunities to fix what was slipping away in your marriage, MFZ. I challenge you. Are you going to let them pass by?
Yes, I can see this is a much bigger LB than I realised. Actually we don't have a lot to argue about normally but I will have to get used to not pursuing my points too far when we do and ensuring she gets at least equal "air time".
We do a fair amount together but there's scope for more and to be more closely interacting when we do it. We'll be away together next week.
Believer, if you are still viewing, today is WW's birthday and the dress (my birthday gift) does look good on her. Problems are: "when/where could I wear it?" (I'll have to find suitable occasions), and "is it too young for me?" (she'll take girlfriend's and DD's views on that). But she loves the style and is delighted that I thought she'd look lovely in it, which she does.
Dinner with DD, DS and partners tonight then we're away at our holiday home together for a week. It may be harder to post while away but I'll try to stay in touch with my laptop - apologies if there's a delay responding.
I note there's a reduction in activity on this thread now, presumably because things appear to be on a quieter and steady course at present. I'm hopeful.
A problem coming up at the end of this month is that WW is competing in a team at one of the events which OM is administering (I will be present). I'm not certain whether this situation will arise again but she has now decided not to undertake admin. duties in future.
Friends approve, she's keeping the dress - I'm afraid I may have set the bar a bit high re. future birthday gifts!
Very good job. It's nice that she likes the dress and that her friends approve. And it's very good that you got a dress that she thought might be "too young" for her, much better than too doudy.

Continue what you are doing. As you do things together, you should find things to talk about, and spend less time debating. Also look for long term things to plan.

Someone was here posting about what Steve Harley said in counseling, to the effect of asking your wife if it wouldn't be better to be stay married to her children's father, if it could be a happy marriage. And then saying that you have found a plan for that.

I still think that part of your wife's problem is the kids moving out on their own. As someone who was devoted to her children, that was a HUGE adjustment for me. I spent several years floundering.

I started my own business and have become very involved in volunteer work, and that has done the trick for me.

Look for dreams and goals the two of you can pursue.
That's a really good way of introducing the idea of a plan - thanks.
I think you're right about the kids moving out too, I'm sure it played a part.
We'll have to give some thought to our goals - that seems like another good idea.
Things with WW appear similar to how they were before discovery but a little friendlier with some appreciation of my Plan A efforts. I have no signs of contact but neither do I feel the effects of withdrawal. Patience and a gentle/gradual introduction of new ideas (such as Believer's) is my current plan.
In the meantime can anyone recommend good threads that might be worth me following, especially regarding good Plan A stuff and verification (e.g. vehicle tracking)?
I remain concerned about the expected encounter with OM in a fortnight.
In the States you can buy a good GPS for about $350. You put it in or on the car and it will give a realtime feedback of the car's location and the time. It is certainly easier than other ways of spying. I wish I had invested in one.
Here is one from Ark

Have you seen the post below? It is one of my ark^^ favorites.
Quote:
________________________________________

I wrote this to familymatters about plan a this am...and then I read sindy post on plan a...so I"m threadjacking myself...

putting out there some of my musings of plan a..


FIRST thing is that I strongly strongly believe that before you even begin plan A...that you make a time limit for it...with plans to go to Plan B...
that for plan b to be effective you must have a good plan a...and for plan a to be effective and have the stamina to hang in there and give so unconditionally you must have a time frame in mind for plan b.....

Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact...
this is your map to navigating those treacherous waters...

it also is your big moment to diffuse all the excuses WS are prone to use to justify their behavior and choices....

and more you can diffuse their blame...

the bs is "always depressed"
the bs "always wants to talk about relationships"
the bs "is controlling"
the bs "yells all the time"
etc....

the more you remove those things...and the more you remove yourself from any powerstruggles of insanse things...

he said she said..
etc...
the more your disengage from arguements..again the more they have look at their own actions and choices....

here's what I told familymatters..One of the biggest mistakes that people make in plan A is that they begin to meet their spouses needs....and still hold on to great expectations of reward and reinforcement from their spouse....

plan a is ALL about learning to give and do for a bit with NO expectation of ANYTHING in return...

the giving of self and gifts with no strings attached....

I have quoted the silly add campaign for some perfume in the 70's here before...but I think it fits....

It went like this ...

"if you want to get someones attention...
whisper."..

plan a is like a whisper of behaviors and actions...
plan a should not be huge demonstrative expressions of love and romance...

WS are incapable of accepting those things...
part of that is that their actions at the time of continuing an affair are NOT loving and lovable...
and they KNOW it..
sometimes they know it better than their BS...who still want to use words like love to them...

so they get resentful
or shut down
or depressed..
or it solidifies their belief that they are so "bad" or so far gone...it feeds into their excuse and defense of unworthiness...

plan a is about filling the home with love and light in other ways...

it about an upbeat environment without the deep doom cloud hanging overhead..

it is about a home filled with children's activities and joy when applicable and it is about inviting and drawing the wS into those times and activities....

and even when they refuse to come in to the joy...the joy goes on without them...

BS that do a good plan a...say they feel like their WS didn't notice..or only was receptive now and then...and then their involvement and particpation increased...

WS that were handed a good plan a...say they watched and noticed EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING....even when the bS thought they didn't notice a thing....

WS are in great turmoil...and human nature is in conflict to take ALWAYS the path of the least resistance.....

the path of least resistance...is withdrawal and wallowing in self loathing and pity..

the path of least resistance is the OP..for they can not judge and force the WS to see their own actions...because they are as guilty as the other....

so plan A'rs.....need to stop ALL relationship talk..
all talk of love...

you do things that are subtle...
like put a CD in that the WS likes...and just enjoy if yourself...and if they enjoy it also...so be it..
even better yet when it is a blast from the past CD...one that speaks of a history...without blatant insistance that the wS remember this or that....

just history...

the person in plan A...needs to be upbeat and charming...they need to see that the BS is capable of fun and joy...because if all they ever see is a BS lost in the pain..then it will solidify their belief that the pain the WS has caused will never go away...and no one can stand to see the pain they have inflicted day after day...(unless psychotic or sadistic)

the person in plan a needs to engage family and friends in fun activites always always always inviting the wS to join in...
they need to see that things can and could be normal again....

plan a can be leaving a love note...but more impressive a joke...
buy an old farside book and make copies of the really really funny ones....
or the old calvin and hobbs.......
and leave those posted about...
WS seek false joy and laughter....
bring them back to real laughter.....

plan a'rs need to learn to babble back to the insanity that Ws say..and give the babble no leverage or "to die for importance"....

plan a'rs need a time limit of doing plan a with a concrete plan when to go to plan b..
the better the plan b..the better the reality of the consequances of plan b...

make plans to things the wS likes to do..
baseball games..
movies
etc..
and when they dont' want to go..
still go and do them..
be up up up up beat...

draw them to you and your home like a moth to a flame...

work on yourself
find an outside interest that gives you some relief ..

expect nothing nothing nothing from the Ws within a limited time period and free yourself in to the ability to give and do for your spouse better than you ever had....

WS are not used to getting thing with no strings attached....
it will confuse and baffle them...but when they try to use the old "your pressuring me excuse"..it will fall on their empty ears..cause they know that has not been the case..

take them a coffee expresso piled high with whip cream...at work or bring it home to them...and leave it for them..
don't badger them to thank you
don't badger them to tell you how much they liked it..
lay it at their feet and walk away whistling...
find the joy in the act of giving and doing and not in the receptiveness....

hard hard hard hard it is......
but set the time frame and go for it....
anyone can do anything for six weeks..
(except ATKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )

and pray for Gods Grace to enter your heart and home...
pray for serenity...
make you house the home where you and the kids and WS would want to be....


become strong...
become confident
become engaging and charming...

realize that YOU the BS are not lovable or desirable..based on your spouses giving or taking of love...
that you stand alone in this world..
lovabe and desirable...inspite of your spouses...


that's why plan A is all about each and every encounter and glimpse in to you and your home life being as engaging and attractive.....


plan a is all about doing what you can to end an affair....
plan a is built on the presumption that they are in contact...
that's why your contact needs to be better and with more value and depth....

this does not mean that you don't set boundaries on what you will tolerate in your life..

you will not "babysit" the kids so she can go with the OP...

you don't condone any contact..
but you don't powerstruggle it either...


if you think your spouse is going to go out with op don't make it easy for them..don't watch the kids...make plans first...and leave him or her with the kids...etc

hope this helps some..
ark
Thanks believer, Ark's post gives me a better insight. I'll look into those GPS devices too.
Hey, MFZ. Good to see you again. In addition to the GPS tracker, I have a link to various surveillance methods and tools in the link entitled "Spying 101" in my signature area.
MFZ: kudos for the dress !! It was a bold move - it took courage & a leap into the unknown (I'd start thinking about Christmas gift now though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). You have inspired me to do something similar (I don't know what, yet, but I'm sure it will scare me).

Ark's post is bang on.

Good luck & keep us informed.

b.p.m.
LH: Hi, read your spying link and have used HomeKeyLogger successfully to get password to WW's private email (no A stuff there). Have identified a recording GPS tracker with magnet for external attachment (easier to fit/retrieve) and hope it's effective if I get one (Minature Magnetic GPS Logger, model VTS02 - any reviews?). I'm hoping to intercept her itemised mobile-phone bill to check for contacts since NC agreement (I'm sure she'd use her existing mobile as she knows to delete messages and call history as required). If there is contact I will get the GPS. But I'm not sure what else I should do - confront her with the fact?
By the way, anyone tried a "deleted text reader" to read deleted texts from a mobile SIM? Not sure how to tell if WW's texts are stored on the SIM or phone - how can you tell?
[See http://www.spyequipmentuk.co.uk/ for both devices]

BPM - read your thread. At least you seem to have kept your sense of humour which I'm sure will help. By the way, I lived in the Manchester area myself during my teens (more likely to support Salford RFU than ManC though). Still visit ex-school mates there occasionally. By the way, the dress was by Lilly Allen from New Look - a tiered, ruffled silk thing but only stocked in the Newcastle, Dartford and Marble Arch branches for some reason). Wish I could post a pic here, it looks great. It's gonna be hard to equal that for Xmas though.
I don't know anyone who's used that particular model of GPS tracker, MFZ, but the technology is so well settled these days, I suspect any of them that has the features you want will be fine.

Once you establish the fact there has been contact, I'd say you must look at confronting her again. Now, of course you should evaluate the type and frequency of the contact. If there were three contacts, of 1 minute duration, and they were all early in the bill period...that's different to me from frequent and steady contact all through the period. But it's your decision.

I've never tried a deleted text reader but I vaguely recall another post where it was said they didn't work except on very specific cell phones.
Help please! There HAS been contact via mobile phone since we agreed NC last month. I know this by intercepting her itemised invoice. I don't want to reveal how I know about her calls. A GPS tracker will now be ordered!
I have to go away for a few days to attend to our business. All I can think to do is to explain before I go why NC is vital to saving our marriage and ask her to write the formal NC letter (presumably she will try to avoid doing this).
Any refinements or better ideas welcome!
I think you must confront her with the new information, MFZ. You don't have to tell her how you know -- you just tell her you do. She already knows she's broken the agreement and it's not a matter where you have to "prove" it to her. If you decide to have a second D-Day, it's going to be critical to get the NC agreement and a clear understanding between the two of you that ANY contact is unacceptable.
MFZ,

Quote
Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too

I read this title and I had to post here. That is exactly what my WW wants also. Isn't it amazing just how demented the thinking of one involved in an A becomes? My WW actually came right out and told me 2 days ago that she does not want a D, but wants to stay here with me and keep seeing her MOM co-worker. I laughed. It's not funny, but it is insane. The answer to my WWs request is most likely D papers.
MFZ,

Don't forget to inform OM's W as well, of the contact. (Just supporting LH's post.)

LA
I agree LG, that's what I'll do.
Journeyer - I can forgive what she's done but can't accept the path of M-destruction she's on. I don't want to get to D unless it is necessary. I'm not staying at any cost but 28 years of M is worth a bit more of a fight, to me at least.
LA - thanks for reminding me. that's important too, OM's W must know.
I have confronted her with the "fact" of her ongoing contact. No conclusions yet.
MFZ

So sorry to hear about your news of broken NC. You've got a good team backing you (& the noise seems to have calmed down a bit now) so you're in good hands.

These A's are so similar; like journeyer I was drawn here by the thread title as it rang true for me (WW was even angling after an open M at one point). Journeyer, have you got a thread ??

Quote
Journeyer - I can forgive what she's done but can't accept the path of M-destruction she's on. I don't want to get to D unless it is necessary. I'm not staying at any cost but 28 years of M is worth a bit more of a fight, to me at least.
As my counsellor would say: this feels very healthy - you have your boundaries & you're enforcing them.

Thanks for dropping by my thread. My sense of humour (dark & twisted as it is) is a valuable tool &, if you have the stomach, I'm always happy to share it.

I've not gone in for the snooping stuff myself - I'd rather get D'd than do that but that's just me, I've relied on the fact the F?WW is bobbins at telling lies (which she is) - what sort of gadgets are you in need of ??

Good luck,

b.p.m.

p.s. 28 yrs is worth fighting for IMHO.
It was rather a long (too long) discussion that occurred last night when I challenged WW on breaking her NC agreement. She didn’t ask how I knew nor challenge it, effectively confirming the fact. Perhaps she’ll think I guessed and she’s been tricked into an admission. Anyway, these are the main points that I can recall:-
1. I don’t understand what I’m asking her to give up.
2. The sudden cut-off I “demand” is what is so terrible, she would find it so much easier to withdraw by degrees.
3. She felt manipulated, out-manoeuvred and that I seemed to have every angle covered.
4. My logic suggested she had to give up all the friends with whom she has a close relationship (several girl- and mutual men-friends listed).
5. She wants to keep her life together – her home, friends and numerous activities – so she doesn’t want to end our marriage.
6. It ended with some humour and some hugs.
Point 3 is not a testimony to how smart I am but to the collective wisdom of you folk here at MB; but I may have earned a few minus points for being too-clever-by-half, again. I’m sure points 1 – 4 are straight out of the WS handbook!
I shall keep smiling, and snooping. I understand your feelings on the second thing BPM but knowing and facing up to the facts of what’s happening with WW really felt the right thing to do. It may not stop contact and so enable recovery to begin but I feel it has improved the chances.
Posted By: Orchid Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/21/07 09:53 AM
You don't have t/b a doormat. Once you have stated your boundaries and she steps on them, then it is time to STOP being nice and enact plan B.

1st you have t/b ready. R U? Is your mind and heart in sync? Ready for a rough ride? Finances in order? Make sure everything you can lock down (in your favor) you do so. Protect the interests of yourself and your family.

Know that the WS is NOT a family member or friend. However, it is the WS who is holding your W hostage with you as bait. R U ok with that? If not, what r u going t/d?

L.
Orchid, I don't think I'm being a doormat. These recent contacts are not that many or that long. Yes, she is backsliding but I expected it and that's why I snooped. There are many signs that she recognises the A must and will end and that she wants to stay married. OK, so we're back to square one but I'm already much better adapted to the rigours of Plan A and I'm sure it's much too soon for Plan B. I am ready for Plan A, Plan B and Plan D if necessary - and if the last is what it comes too I hope my Plan A will have made me a better candidate for a future relationship. I just don't think that's inevitable - this marriage CAN be fixed, though it MIGHT not be.
BPM - click on Journeyer's name then on "Show all user's posts".
Good luck Journeyer - I can't offer advice except that reading more relevant threads here may turn on a few lights for you.
bulletproof_m,

Quote
Journeyer, have you got a thread ??

Yes, I have a thread here and in the Plan A/Plan B forum. Most of my post are in the former. My WW is totally wacko.

MFZ,

Quote
Journeyer - I can forgive what she's done but can't accept the path of M-destruction she's on. I don't want to get to D unless it is necessary. I'm not staying at any cost but 28 years of M is worth a bit more of a fight, to me at least.

I can forgive my wife also, I have told her that many times. Also, I'm not encouraging you to go ahead with the D if you can get her to stop. I know exactly how you feel, we've been married 26 years and together for 28, It's an unbelievable loss. I've told her that I don't want the D but will not accept her giving herself to someone else while living in my house.
Whilst I am still hopeful that my M will be OK I am at least thinking about Plan B issues. I wonder if anyone has comments on the following:-
If she remains in our house during Plan B too little will have changed for her. We have already been accustomed to spending time apart and I know from house moves in the past that she finds it extremely stressful to leave a home. I doubt she would agree to it and it will be very difficult to force her. Selling the home would be such a big, ugly step that it would probably destroy any good Plan-A had achieved and lead to Plan-D rather than B
Looking further ahead to a possible D, I might have to choose between letting her keep our home and splitting our business, which would probably mean ending the latter in due course. Again the prospect of NOT loosing the house would make D less daunting for her. I can only think of insisting on selling the house until a possible last-minute offer to swap home for business, but I’m not happy with pursuing any path that is not sincerely meant.
What I have to consider is that our business is 5 hours travel from our home. It’s a holiday-cottages enterprise in the far west of Cornwall (I’m not mentioning this to bid for your patronage, but then again …). I spend far more time at the cottages - on renovation, maintenance, gardening, etc. – than WW, hence the time apart. It’s a beautiful spot and it would be simplest by far for me to relocate there. It would make NC with WW easier, give me some continuity and allow me to get more immersed in tasks there. But it would also remove me from my family/friends support network.
I can’t see an optimum way through this that doesn’t leave her fairly insulated, or me fairly isolated or propel us nearer to a D.
I would continue Plan A, and let her know how hurtful contact with the OM is to you.

As far as Plan B, could SHE move to the cottage? It is best to have her feel the consequences of her choices, not for her to be living comfortably in the family home. Do some more thinking on that one.

Have you exposed the affair to your son and daughter?
I will continue Plan A but this relapse suggested I should think ahead in case I have to move to B. I would certainly ask her to move to one of the cottages but I think she will refuse. I may speak to a lawyer but I doubt I can enforce this.
I have not exposed to DS and DD yet but may do so (certainly if contact happens again). At present my DS is overseas so I have to wait a few weeks for his return anyway.
I forgot to mention that during our "second discovery" discussion I asked whether she would write an NC letter as soon as next week's unavoidable encounter is past. She said she couldn't write it but if I did she would sign it. My feeling is that this would not be a sincere action, rather a gesture of submission that she would not feel bound by. What do you think?
Just told OMW about OM’s “affair phone” and that WW has called him since agreeing NC with me. She was shocked as she also had an NC agreement. OMW and I have agreed to meet to see whether we can collaborate better in breaking this affair.
Good job. Informing the OM's wife often puts a halt to the affair. Many OM find it easier just to move on to someone else, and not have all the problems of a BH exposing everything.

Give it some time and see what happens next.
She's known about the affair a lot longer than me (but didn't expose to me). I just told her it's still going on. Hope that adds more pressure.
OK, I posted that when WW broke her verbal NC agreement I asked her to write an NC letter to OM. She replied that if I wrote one she'd sign it but that just didn't sound sincere at the time - she'd sign anything but not mean it I felt.
On reflection I think it's unrealistic not to provide some kind of draft since she has not had the benefit of MB. If she puts it in her own handwriting and even introduces something of her own that I can accept that seems OK.
Any comments on this draft please?

"OM,
I have often told you how important my present lifestyle, home and family are to me. H has provided, supported or enabled so much of this and over the last three months I have come to realise how important I am to him and his future too, in spite of what I had thought before. It was selfish to want so much from him and to cause him so much pain. He has clearly shown how much he cares for me and wants to protect me; I care for him too and cannot divide my affections and loyalty any longer.
I have told H that I will end my relationship with you and promised never to see or communicate with you again, ever. I ask you to respect that promise and not try to contact me.
WW

I know she has always told him she didn't want to change her life - hence the opening sentence (and thread title). I would also ask her not to send the letter unless she means it.
I think its way too long Zog

what about something simple like ...

OM,
I love my family.
Any contact with you hurts those I love so I will never contact you in any way ever again.
Please do not ever try to contact me.
WW

Short to the point & no extra words where OM could read into them she really wants to talk/contact but that bothersome H is stopping me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Just a thought <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
That's a good point AW. On the other hand she has been telling him for years (this is a long-term affair) what an awful H I was, that I didn't care about her but that although she didn't love me she didn't dislike me either. So it was OK to stay, to take all the benefits of our M but get her love quotient from him (OM). Also our children are no longer our dependants and she didn't care enough about their feelings to stop her A 3 months ago or to keep her NC promise last month.
I think he'd know who put her up to this when he reads "I love my family". What I was trying to do was for her to tell OM that she was wrong before and the situation has changed, forever.
But thank you AW. Maybe yours is better - I'll keep thinking about this for a day or two. Any more comments?
I'm not so sure the reference to family isn't okay. Remember, WW was motivated to give at least some lip service to NC because she didn't want the children to know. I think it’s highly she still thinks of them as part of the family…because they are.

I’d go with concise, and short, easily understood words of few syllables. There’s nothing quite like brevity and simple words to get the idea across.

BTW, your wife seems to want to end this by slowly decreasing contact. I think you need to make the point no addict ends his or her addiction by doing that. It’s “cold turkey” or it won’t work.

LH
Yup, right as always LH. Re-reading it, I can see mine is too long and too soft. I was afraid of putting the word "love" in her mouth but I'm sure you can see why.
There will be unavoidable contact at an "event" at the end of this week, the last ever I hope, but I will be there the whole time. She is an essential part of a team to whom she has given a commitment; OM is not in the team but will be present as an administrator. I will take the opportunity to show OM how determined I am. I am therefore counting Saturday as our new "Day 1". No point initiating anything more before then.
I have drafted a few alternative NC letters, mostly on the lines suggested by AussieWife. I’m hoping she will get the idea and write a blend of her own. But I don’t want it sent unless (and until) she means it.
GPS is on order. I have fixed a meeting with OMW to see if we can co-ordinate the pressure and snooping, and maybe get her into a good Plan A of her own.
I recently gave her a note defining my limits (NC and transparency). She is being very nice at the moment and acting like she accepts these. I am drafting exposure letters, emails and notes for meetings, just in case.
Good. I'm glad OMW seems more inclined to cooperate now. Perhaps she would benefit by reading a copy of SAA?
WW is very angry with me. Since I told OMW there had been further contact she threatened to come to the "event" this week (where WW is competing/organising and OM is administrating) and create a scene. So he won't go (good!) so WW will have to take over his duties which she is very worried about taking on (bad).
Why did I have to interfere? Why couldn't I wait until after the event? I very nearly left yesterday when I found out what you'd done! (I've been away on business for a few days until this evening).
I said I didn't think I'd done anything wrong, OMW had a right to know her H had broken their NC agreement too. But I didn't do it to undermine the event. What can I do to help you cope?
Everything is going according to the usual script I suppose.
Posted By: Owl Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/26/07 08:32 PM
Sounds like usual script to me. Simply tell your wife that the problem with the event is NOT a result of anything that you're doing...it's a result of HER renewed contact with OM.

If she continues in contact with OM, it will continue to a source of contention. Its NOT you...its the result of HER actions with OM.

Nothing more than that.
I'm with Owl. It sounds like the routine anger a WS has when their fantasy begins to unwind. That's what happens when a strong light is shown on the affair. I think she inadvertently revealed her real problem when she asked why you were interfering. I know what she thought she was saying, but I suspect it expressed a much deeper idea.

It’s great news for you and OMW that he won’t be attending the event. See? Exposure works. I suspect OM isn’t enjoying life very much right now…and that’s fine.

At any rate, ride out the anger and don’t let it bother you much. Let it slide off like water off a duck’s back, if you know what I mean. Does that translate to the British version of English? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At any rate, she may threaten to leave again and not just mention it in passing. The threat is routine, but it seldom happens. When it does, it’s generally for a very short time.

In your case, I don’t know how well, or whether, she’s thought that out. How would she support herself if she did? I presume you understand you shouldn’t even consider financing a separate apartment or anything at all to do with separate residences, right? Remember, financial security is generally very high on a woman’s list of ENs and was one of the ENs used in Dr. Harley’s examples early in SAA.
Thanks Owl, my reply was OK but yours was much better and I'll use it if she says the same again.
"Water off a duck's back" is a well-known phrase or saying here too LH. Anyway, she made me dinner, cups of tea, etc. - though she's a bit glacial nothing more has been said tonight. I'm sure she won't leave as she has nowhere to go and her home is central to her life.
I emailed OM regarding his no-show and told him, amongst a very few other things, that "I will fight for my marriage and do anything reasonable to save it." His reply includes the following paragraph:
"Whilst it is regrettable that I will not be attending
this event, it is for precisely the same sentiments as
you have voiced. The 'occurrence' to which I allude
does not involve you at all and I cannot permit it to
take place under any circumstances."
The only "sentiment" I mentioned, so far as I can see, is the one about saving my marriage. Interesting - I wonder whether OMW was looking over his shoulder when he wrote that
or whether he might actually mean it.
"Occurrence?" What is he talking about?
Once an OM figures out that his wife is going to continue being informed of contact, they usually back off. They usually realize that continuing an affair is going to be much more trouble than they thought. We have seen it over and over here.
Posted By: 2long Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 06/27/07 12:37 AM
Quote
His reply includes the following paragraph:
"Whilst it is regrettable that I will not be attending
this event, it is for precisely the same sentiments as
you have voiced. The 'occurrence' to which I allude
does not involve you at all and I cannot permit it to
take place under any circumstances."
The only "sentiment" I mentioned, so far as I can see, is the one about saving my marriage. Interesting - I wonder whether OMW was looking over his shoulder when he wrote that
or whether he might actually mean it.

I think an appropriate reply 2 this paragraph, if there is 2 be one, would be something like:

"What did you just say??"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long
2-Long - Zog is from England too. He think he understands what the guy might be saying, or not.
The "occurrence" is that OMW threatened to turn up at the event and create a "scene" - just the THREAT of exposure seems to have worked!
I did try to clarify what he meant. I replied:
"I can only think the "sentiments" you referred to are about saving my marriage. If that's true (that you are trying to save your marriage too) then I am delighted for me, for WW, for OMW and for you. The very best of luck.
If you meant something different I missed your meaning entirely ..."
Ahhhhh, okay. I still don't understand why he said it had nothing to do with you, but that's all right. Sounds like he's scared to death his wife is going to interfere in his hobby.

I'm not a proponent of engaging the OP as a general rule, because it seldom accomplishes anything of substance. However, if his desire to end the affair is reinforced, then the email was productive.
I think he means he wasn't frightened of getting into an argument or fight with me, the "occurrence" would be his wife's embarrassing exposure.
I sent the email because I too wasn't certain what he meant - I'm still not certain because he hasn't replied but I cannot think of another interpretation (and he is usually very good with words).
No more angry outbursts from WW but no particular warmth either.
GPS tracker has arrived and is being tested (to find the best and most convenient positions to fit it. It seems to work OK.
I think you are doing fine. Continue checking, but you may find that the OM will self-remove from your life and marriage. I hope you are going to the event to verify that OM isn't there, and this isn't just a story he cooked up.
Yes Owl, I am there the whole time. I hope you're right about OM.
Sorry - Believer, I WAS there the whole time, and all went well without OM's presence. One phone call for technical assistance which I reluctantly agreed to was - annoyingly and worryingly - initiated beyond my hearing and sight. There is now no reason for any contact, ever again. I'm not convinced that that is settled in her mind however.
The main reason is that she remains cool towards me because I informed OMW about the previous contacts (after both WW and OM had agreed NC with their respective BSs). That was a week ago and it ruined the prospect of her last (?) hobby-event with OM. I'm not feeling very positive towards her either at present. I will try to continue with Plan A attitude and actions but don't know what/when to do more about NC.
GPS tracker tested and working OK.
MFZ, so long as contact of any kind continues to happen, the affair is not over in your WW's mind...or his. When you gave WW permission to contact OM, you reinforced the idea in their minds that there's still a chance things can go back to the way they were. Forget the fact she took your permission and did something deceitful with it while you conveniently took yourself off to the sidelines -- and too busy to watch her. I think that you let her contact OM was a BIG mistake. I also think you know that or you wouldn't have brought it up.

I don’t have any doubt WW and OM were going to use the event to reconnect (if, in fact, they’ve ever actually not been in contact). You broke that up, but you gave them both a substitute, albeit a poor one when you allowed them so long a phone conversation. That’s not what you’re about, MFZ. You can’t set a boundary and then step back from it. It just won’t work.

Pardner...remember, all along, your WW has said she wants to stay in the marriage AND continue the affair. When you allow her to call him, for any reason, you send the wrong message. Man, re-read SAA where Dr. Harley specifically says the WS can NEVER have any contact with the OP. Never means never, not "when it seems like a good reason." Your first reaction when WW asks to make contact should be a resounding "NO!" and you should never EVER retreat from that position.

Did you call OMW and let her know there has been additional contact?

Friend, you haven't yet broken up the affair and the longer the affair continues with you fully aware of it, the more your WW gets used to other people knowing her darkest secret. I think you need to consider starting over with the basics of exposure and a revitalized Plan A. And MFZ, when you begin a Plan A, remember Dr. Harley tells us it only works about 15% of the time. The other 85% of the time, it's necessary to go into Plan B. I think you should begin to consider how you would work a Plan B with your WW. That you seem to becoming a little weary of Plan A is an indication the time for a black Plan B is coming nearer.

MFZ, what you do about NC is to state your opposition to it in any shape, form, or fashion. It's a boundary that you need to adhere to. WW MUST understand that if she wants to remain married she must give up contact, okay?
Sometime in the next few days (I will try to find a relatively calm moment) I will discuss NC and openness with WW. These are the boundaries I have defined to her already. I will share my disappointment that she took advantage of the opportunity to call OM to stretch that permission and make clear that there will NEVER be any collusion from me again. I will ask her again whether she is prepared to write an NC letter, and mean it.
I will tell OMW about the call and ask that she query with OM what was said.
I will ask her to share her daily itinerary with me - indefinitely - and check this with the GPS device.
I will attempt to get my mind back into a good Plan A shape. Exposure and Plan B are definitely in the frame now. She will not cake-eat without consequences.
Contacted OMW - OM had already told her about the latest phone call. Also he has apparently agreed NC with OMW and says he wants to stay!?
Have agreed with OMW to share evidence or strong suspicions of contact but keep our communication/collaboration private.
Does OMW know yours is an affair marriage ?

Might just be germane to her comprehension of the situation.

oh, sorry , I forgot

*** you are ignoring this user ***
I HAD stopped ignoring you BP because I thought your contributions to other threads were very useful. It seems I may have to Ignore you again because you seem determined to use your obvious talents destructively here. I think that's a shame. I will NOT continue a debate with you about AMs however.
(P.S. Actually I did happen to tell her mine was an AM as you call it.)
Good job. Your situation sounds very hopeful to me. If he knows that his wife will be informed, it will give him more incentive to refrain from contact.

I hope you are still spending 15 hours a week doing fun things with your wife. You can show her that you are much more interesting than anyone else.
Believer - I have wobbled a bit the last few days, I wasn't sure I wanted to continue. Still, she won't have noticed because she was still too angry with me for revealing contact and the Affair Phone to OMW before the "event", which caused OM not to be there. Provided I can get my enthusiasm for Plan A back nothing is lost and there have been hopeful developments.
Gotta keep your hope up. Don't expect ANYTHING at all from her for a couple of months. That is just the way it is - not fair, I know. But you will have to do most of the heavy lifting at first. Your reward will be a marriage that is much better than ever.

If you get discouraged, just do it for drill - tell yourself that it is worth doing, even though it doesn't FEEL like it.
If my contributions directed at other posters have helped you in any way I am most sincerely sorry.

That was truly never my intention. It never occurred to me that by helping others I'd be possibly helping affair marriages. I feel dirtied at the prospect now. Still, at least I'm just a bloke having a go to help in good faith. Its not like an expert offering stuff intended to work in your situation. I have that to cling on to at least.

No irony or cleverness intended in this post btw. It is really how I feel.

You think a courteously offered opinion is "destructive" ?

Well, opinions vary clearly.
Bob, you are incorrigible. Once again, unfortunately:-
*** I am ignoring this user ***
Quote
I HAD stopped ignoring you BP because I thought your contributions to other threads were very useful. It seems I may have to Ignore you again because you seem determined to use your obvious talents destructively here. I think that's a shame. I will NOT continue a debate with you about AMs however.
(P.S. Actually I did happen to tell her mine was an AM as you call it.)

Since you brought up the subject you know what I think is a shame???

1. That you still feel entitled to "destructively" continue to post in the infidelity section of MB even though you remain, in fact, an unrepentent infidel yourself.

2. That other newbies have accidentally wandered in here and posted and then wondered why very few will post to their threads thereafter.

3. That you (and others) believe MB principles apply to your situation.

4. That you feel entitled to "steal" Bob Pure and other posters well intentioned posts to legitimate betrayed spouses knowing such words were not intended for you.

5. That you considered writing a "letter of repentence" to your God-given wife, which would be the very first step to regaining any possibility of integrity and were talked out of it. "Save the affair marriage first, your integrity can wait and/or repentence is no longer necessary" is a load of evil crap.

6. That you continue to post here on the infidelity section of MB when there are alternate forums available here to address your specific situation. In particular, the divorce/divorcing forum as all affairs eventually end as well as the After Divorce, Dating and Other Relationships forum since you are, in fact, Divorced and in another relationship.

7. That you were advised to snoop by others when they should know that snooping in an affair marriage, a marriage based upon lies and deceipt, is TOO risky...if you get caught snooping the illusion of soulmate will likely be inretrievably compromised. An affair marriage likely can not survive. Better not get caught...you should trust your soulmate.

8. That the irony of your first wife's needy and controlling behavior when you cheated on her seems lost to you as you behave needy and controlling today. Years later you still actually characterize her as such several times on this thread.

9. etc., etc., etc.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Like Bob Pure needs any lessons from you about destructive posting OR incorrigable behavior. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Believer, When I am feeling like this perhaps the best thing I can do is keep working on myself rather than attempt to do too much FOR her. The former will stand me in good stead regardless where the latter might betray insincerity. I expect this negativity will pass soon enough anyway; I hope so because a goal is very valuable.
Heres a novel idea. Call up the other lover and ask him if he really loves your wife. If he does suggest an open marriage where you all three live together like on that show, BIG LOVE. Get a house together and all move in.

If he does not like that idea, then maybe he will leave. Keep an open communication with the other man talking to him every day to see how he is, etc. Ask him if he is planning on marrying your wife, etc. Ask how the lovemaking is, etc. You have the right to know since you are sharing your wife with him.

This concept is to keep your friends close but your "enemys" even closer! Even move the enemy into your own house!
Oh, the other lover has a wife of his own! Suggest swinging and all four living together. Start conversing every day with the other man's wife. Once they get to know you the affair will end quickly. Reverse psychology.

You are taking all the sneaking around and all the mystery out of the affair so there will be no reason to continue it.

Converse with the other lover and his wife even have both of them over for dinner. At least once a week to Saturday Dinner. Ask them again and again to have a barbecue at your home or over for dinner. That other man will be so rattled he will RUN!
Stella - yes, that's novel. I take it you're not serious.
Ditto what Believer says, MFZ. Listen to her and mark her words well.

MFZ, that's the essence of Plan A -- working on yourself and not even considering any return from WW. The reward will be in the long term when your 28-year marriage recovers and endures for the rest of your lives. Stay with Dr. Harley's program and you'll be one of the success stories here on MB.

One of the things Dr. Harley cautions against, though, is bargaining with your WW. It's gotten you into "trouble" twice now -- once with exposure limitations and now attempting to limit contact via a phone call. Bargaining your way through this is just not going to work, pardner. Wayward spouses -- aliens -- do not bargain in good faith. They will lie to your face and convince themselves it's only fair because you're working to keep them from being "happy."

Friend, I think it's time you used a nuclear exposure to end this affair once and for all. You've been in Plan A for 3 months and you're essentially still at square one with regard to recovery because you and OMW have allowed the affair to continue without taking strong action. Essentially, you're shielding your wayward spouses fromt the consequencies of their poor choices. Sir, it's time to get proactive and then settle into a strong Plan A for the last 3 months or so that Dr. Harley recommends for a man to work Plan A.

Talk to us, MFZ. What happens next?
OMW did thorough exposure right at the start, except to me. It didn't seem to have affected the affair at all until I knew. I will expose if there is any trigger i.e. future contact.
MFZ,

Got an update?

LA
Yes LA. OM and WW had a meeting which I figured out by GPS-tracking her car. I told OMW and confronted WW. WW claimed it was a goodbye meeting, at least until she could see how our marriage was going.
OMW independently confronted OM and prepared to throw him out (put his stuff in bin bags). He asked to stay and told her didn't love WW any longer, he was just being nice to agree to her request to meet.
Anyhow OMW and I are in close contact by email and coordinating our operations when we can. OM and WW think they are being followed but don't know who arranged this.
It could be that the paranoia plus the fear of having no marriage and no rosy future together has set in and we are winning. WW seems to be building a few bridges with me at last (hugs restored at least).
We will remain vigilant (OMW and I). We are sharing snooping ideas and results. Perhaps we have achieved a breakthrough - at least it feels good to have a partner.
Excellent job. OM most likely will drop your wife like a hot potato. I know that is what I said before, but it is just taking more time than I thought. It will be too much trouble for him, and he may move on to someone who doesn't have a persistent husband.
I hope you're right B, and I think you may be.
Good work, MFZ. Let paranoia begin to create cracks in the fantasy world the two wayward spouses have contrived for themselves. The more pressure you can apply to the affair, the quicker the two will begin to understand it was only make believe.

If you have a little time, perhaps you could add your experiences with the GPS tracker to the "Spying 101" thread linked to in my signature area? The brand of the device, what it showed you (real time map tracking, reports, names of establishments, etc.) would all be of interest to others.

Hang in there. You're doing exactly what you need to do to recover your marriage.
OK, done that LH (details on Spying 101).
Next week it will be 3 months since the “final” meeting between WW and OM that I discovered (using a GPS tracker in her car), confronted her with, and disclosed to OMW. I have agreed with WW to a review of our M on Monday and given her lots of notice. I am hoping she will have done some thinking. I will ask some questions but try not to talk too much and let her reveal her ideas, plans, visions, etc. - if she has any.
This is what has happened in the last 3 months. I have continued tracking her car, intercepting her mobile phone bills and monitoring her private email account (password cracked with a software keylogger). I can find no suspicious journeys, calls or messages. OMW reports that OM says wants to stay and is also worried that if he reneges on that he might loose contact with his grandchildren and perhaps his children.
On the whole I have stopped worrying about the past and know I can let go of that. I do think about our M in the present a great deal but cannot really look to the future until I know whether we have one together or if I’m on my own. WW has generally been OK, perhaps slightly warmer than for years, but we seem to be roughly where we were either before the A started or before I knew about it. My Plan A has consisted of giving her space for withdrawal (no discussion of the A or our M), getting on with lots of tasks around the home that have long been outstanding but no big changes or treats. I cannot do much more on my own, I’m not strong enough for that.
The only real hiccup was when I hadn’t replaced dead flowers with fresh ones to welcome her back after a few days away (I hadn’t noticed them, just like the “old” me). This was 2 months in. She was mad at me for hours and wouldn’t be consoled. The other worry is that she changed her email password to something very like the nickname OM used to call her – a regular reminder of the A. This suggests she is not wholehearted about trying to recover. I will need to get her to think about this without revealing what I know.
For the “review” I am thinking of asking her:
* Do you think our marriage is safe?
* What do you think the chances are we’ll still be married in 5 or 10 years?
* Are you willing to be a partner in improving our marriage?
* What would be your plan?
I want it to be very much her meeting. I thought I would say at the outset that if there was anything she needed to think about, rather than answer immediately we should agree to discuss it at a later review.
If she has no ideas and asks what my plan is I thought I might give her the following:
1. Don’t expect too much too quickly.
2. Make an effort to be friends.
3. Eliminate all unnecessary reminders. Letters, messages, photos, gifts – anything that might flip the memory.
4. Let each other know what’s good, what’s bad, what works and what’s missing – but do it kindly.
5. Don’t harp on past problems and failures.
6. Review regularly.
7. Consider a relationship councillor if we can’t fix this by ourselves.
If she is unwilling to participate in forging a better M ask for a later meeting to discuss divorce. I think I should give her time to face the serious consequences. Actually I might try to construct a viable Plan B in which she leaves the home – I think this might not be possible and me leaving is not a good Plan B.
Does anyone have any constructive ideas, suggestions or comments? Your support would be invaluable at this important stage.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 11:00 AM
yes...constructive. Stop your affair.
MK, is that you telling me to end my very long marriage because of a very old mistake, regretted and paid for as best I could at the time? You're telling me to hurt my innocent children unecessarily? I will ask you nicely not to post your constructive comments here but see whether you can offer real help elsewhere. No doubt you will cry freedom of speech and continue.
I hope I will get some well-intentioned responses.
Quote
...regretted and paid for as best I could at the time?


A nice divorce settlement is not Repentence.

Step one is apologizing to your ex-wife.

You'd think this would be soooo obvious as you now are well aware of how hurt she must have been. Give her the satisfaction of an apology AND tell her just how you came to know one was very due her. Your pride (which is also a sin) may try to prevent you from telling her you are now a BH. Don't let it. She's not in your life anymore...give her the satisfaction that, though you left her for OW that life with OW has not been all it was cracked up to be.

Constructively,

Mr. Wondering
I apologised at the time and XW was quite gracious about it. Of course she was in a new relationship by then (about 6 or 8 months from D day) which involved breaking up someone else's family. I don't think she needs to hear from me again. It has nothing to do with my pride and a fair reading of my postings might tell you that.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 02:07 PM
MFZ..if your ADULT children would be so traumatized by mommy and her affair partner getting divorced, I suggest you enroll them in another kindergarten.

You were asked by many to take your issues elsewhere...yet I am sure you will cry freedom of speech.
My adult children would be hurt, not traumatised. Your "constructive" suggestion is simply bullying.
I was encouraged by many to stay and you were encouraged to simply avoid this thread if you didn't feel willing or able to help. You are of course IGNORED again.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 02:45 PM
children no longer living at home....as if that is a big surprise for children in their mid to late twenties.

too funny.
ManFrog,

MB principles are much more firmly based upon love and commitment. Honoring vows and viewing love as a choice.

Your wife won't respond to that. Her, and you, react much more to "feelings" and being happy and DRAMA. Your affair marriage was built up that, lies and betrayal. A recovery of it should follow suit.

Thus...I suggest more deceiptful tactics. Recovery nation or some other website suggests the 180 degree plan wherein you seemingly detach from her. Even make it appear you are interested in or really dating others and moving on. Make her chase you. It's a much more underhanded approach that should be more effective in your situation.

I don't know what else to tell you. MB's just not the way to go. Perhaps somebody "nicer" will post to you the 180 Plan list.

Mr. Wondering
MFZ:

I was out of the home when my parents divorced, and I still took it hard. No doubt your children would as well.

Anyone that says otherwise is naive.
Some folks are still afflicted by acute small-mindedness and a distinct lack of Christian kindness, huh MFZ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stay with your plan, MFZ. I would strongly…very strongly…recommend you find a good counselor whether you two appear to be progressing on your own or not. A good one can facilitate the process in areas where neither of you are even aware there is a difficulty. Think about it, okay? I don’t quite understand your comments about Plan B but I’d keep it under consideration, were I you, pending the results of your discussion with your WW.
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 04:16 PM
I thought I was on ignore LH...hopefully I can earn that back...heck, last I remembered you had half the board on ignore.
And yes, LH...some people do have that affliction...I hope you get over it soon. Your distinct lack of Christian kindness already resulted in some BS being harmed here. Your willingness to do this here on GQ shows your lack of Christian kindness towards those that are offended by an affair marriage being helped in such a public place.
Quote
Some folks are still afflicted by acute small-mindedness and a distinct lack of Christian kindness, huh MFZ?


Hello Pot!!!

It wasn't me that totally discouraged ManFrog from the very first step towards repenting (a heartfelt contrite thorough apology to his first wife) in this very thread. How "kind" was that?

Wouldn't you agree, as a Christian, that ManFrog should repent to his "controlling and needy" first wife whom he betrayed in the most "unkind" and "unChristianlike" manner possible?

Longhorn...I am very disappointed in you. Where is YOUR finely honed Christian kindness towards Man of Fog's ex-wife, the REAL victim here?

Mr. Wondering
Another thing

Ya' know what makes this all so troll-like.

ManFrog is in early recovery now...why not pop up a new thread on the recovery board instead of bumping up this old ugly thread. I still don't like it because the recovery board is still here in the infidelity section but that's not my call (I'd have him go to the emotional needs board, a quiet place or the divorced/divorcing board).

Why here...where there are quite a few men and women (including lurkers) whose spouses are deep in the fog calling them "needy and controlling". Why here where there are men and women (and lurkers) whose greatest fear is that their WS's are going to leave them and marry their affair partners and have a supposedly solid, worthy of saving, 15 year affair marriage.

It's either a troll or a total inability to recognize and appreciate the pain such tread(s) bestill upon others.

Mr. W
Zog,

I know a woman who left her husband and married her affair partner. Their six children showed the wear and tear. When her affair partner/new husband began to cheat on her....one of the things she realized was that many of her current marital problems were planted during the initial affair and linked to that past. After ten years in the 2nd marriage, and two affairs by her current husband....she decided to revisit the past and start again. In order to stop the cycle of affairs....and give her current marriage authenticity....she had to explore her own feelings of entitlement and selfishness at the beginning of the cycle. She decided to recontact her ex-husband and mend some fences....for the children....but also to create a new foundation from which to understand why her new marriage had reached the same conclusion as her old one, and end the affair dynamics. The result as incredibly healing for everyone. She began this process alone....because it was something to do that didn't depend on the help from her still fogged and uninvested husband. Eventually....he had to get on board....but I believe it was empowering for her.
Thank you Scott. These people are not naive I'm afraid. Of course my children would be greatly hurt by their parents' divorce and it would be selfish not to try to avoid that. MK inflates this to "traumatised" in order to sneer.
Mr W sets himself up as an authority on who will/will not benefit from MB principles. Our moderator is our link to the Harleys on this and I believe no such authority has been delegated to Mr W. Naturally Mr W is also on my ignore list again as another who has persistently highjacked my thread to pursue his own (not MB's) agenda. Longhorn tries again to remind him about Christian forgiveness and redemption but finds himself in a religious war.
Thank you anyway LH, if I could find a good councellor in the UK I would certainly try. We are not as well provided as you in the US I think. Our experience with Relate (the main MC provider here) was not that great.
Star*fish, thank you for sharing that story. I have no problem about contacting my XW and doing anything she would like me to do that might help her. We had no children and were married for only one year; she has been re-married for 28 years now with 2 children.
It might help me to make contact (I'm not sure) but I am very unwilling to impose on her just because I am in trouble. I think she could probably handle it OK but I doubt very much she would benefit from it. She was strong about NC with me at the time so she could focus on her new life.
Thank you anyway.
When I say "revisit" I don't necessarily mean that literally. I'm not suggesting you ring her doorbell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For instance, one of the things I felt was important when my H cheated was that he demonstrate an ability to look beyond his entitlement and selfishness. For that reason, I requested that he go to confession (since he is Catholic) and to do 100 hours of community service as part of compensation. Whether your exwife can see the changes you've made after all this time....is not as important as whether you do these things. What act of contrition can you perform in her name? What demonstration of kindness can you do for other people?

You see....back then...you were young, selfish and immature. And you married someone who had the same qualites.....and apparently still has some. You can't change her. You can change. And if you're lucky....you can find a better foundation for this marriage. You can't change something you don't acknowledge. Your wife is the same woman you married....she is doing to you....what she once did with you. Whatever justification you all used back then to make it okay.....she's still using to rationalize it today. (I'm unhappy, in love, bored, neglected etc etc). If it wasn't wrong the first time....it isn't wrong now....that's why....I want you to go back and visit the time it all began.

You keep dismissing the importance of a short marriage with no children. The importance has to do with what shaped who you and your wife are today. You might not have had the skills or maturity to end your previous the right way then....but you've got them now. How can you impact your exwife or your world in a positive, anonymous and humble way? Let your wife see a better you.
One more quick thought. If you think about it, the thing that contributed to the demise of your first marriage, is the same thing your wife is complaining about now: thoughtlessness. Don't you think that's significant? If you could raise your level of thoughtfulness and awareness....it could help you get to a completely different place in your life. That kind of spiritual growth is inspiring and contagious. It will also contribute to your individual happiness no matter what your wife decides to do.
Amen...Starfish.

Taking it a step further...

It's that same "thoughlessness" that makes you feel brazenly entitled, even though you are admittedly an unrepentent perpetrator of infidelity, to continue posting here on GQII, with full knowledge of harm and upset cause by doing so, directly in front of hundreds of other victims of infidelity seeking their assistance to continue/repair/rebiuld/recover your adulterous conduct.

I don't know HOW to make an adulterous marriage unadulterous. That's between you and God. Were I in your shoes I'd likely try to find a way to do it without divorceing my spouse too. For you...I sincerely hope that's good enough. But absent leaving her I'd try to do everything I could to make me right with God. Read up about it. Study it. Seek counsel. Find ways to make amends. Seek out alternatives to just compensation. Stop putting my affair smugly in others faces. Understand that others have their religious beliefs which I may find uncomforable and judgmental and realize that that is perhaps ONE of my consequences for MY choices.

It is not my fault you find yourself in this situation.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: medc Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 07:59 PM
Quote
I don't know HOW to make an adulterous marriage unadulterous.


you get LH's blessing...that's how!
Zog, maybe you'd be better off getting a new screen name and starting over. There are likely MANY people here on MB who've done exactly that.
Star, those are some good thoughts, but I really wonder if doing the re-contact thing is for everyone. An illustration: I've been divorced from my first wife for almost 34 years. I wasn't the best husband, she surely wasn't the best wife when she cheated on me, but who did what to whom in 1973 is irrelevant now. I’ve served 25 years in the Armed Forces since we divorced. I’ve been places and done things she can’t even comprehend, much less understand how they've made me the man I am today. Also, please understand this. I don’t know her either...not even well enough to have a conversation about the weather, much less emotionally-charged issues that arose when we were both very immature. Frankly, the awkwardness of such a conversation as you envisage and the stirring of long-dead ashes would serve no useful purpose for me, even if she were to come to me with a heartfelt apology. Actually, it would bring back the conflicts, the ugly words, and emotions...and that’s not who I want to be now. Again, what works for one may not be the best for another person.

Also, for what it’s worth, please remember MFZ did apologize to his ex-wife at the time and place that (to me) such a thing was appropriate. Furthermore, he willingly transferred much of his accumulated wealth to her. Since his wife apparently didn’t suffer very long, and moved on with her life almost immediately (requesting MFZ never contact her again), I’m just not sure contacting her and apologizing again would serve any purpose beyond a symbolic gesture. What can you say that is very meaningful after you say you’re sorry? For me (and perhaps for others), respectfully, this is just not beneficial and I’m afraid it has the potential to do a lot of harm.

With respect for your thoughts, as always...

LH
What he did out of guilt or shame does not equate with repentence.

In this very thread he still blamed her and called her "needy and contolling" and tried to use her current adulterous marriage as some sore of justification. But-For his adultery/abuse...who knows what would have happend to her.

Query...Exactly what happens to unrepentent sinners?????

Won't serve any purpose beyond a symbolic gesture...my a$$. It just may step one to saving his eternal soul.

W
Longhorn,

Quote
Star, those are some good thoughts, but I really wonder if doing the re-contact thing is for everyone.

I'm definitely not a "one size fits all" kinda girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I realize that the story I recounted was an instance of re-contact, but I also said this:

Quote
When I say "revisit" I don't necessarily mean that literally. I'm not suggesting you ring her doorbell. For instance, one of the things I felt was important when my H cheated was that he demonstrate an ability to look beyond his entitlement and selfishness. For that reason, I requested that he go to confession (since he is Catholic) and to do 100 hours of community service as part of compensation. Whether your exwife can see the changes you've made after all this time....is not as important as whether you do these things. What act of contrition can you perform in her name? What demonstration of kindness can you do for other people?

I hear your comments about this:

Quote
Also, please understand this. I don’t know her either...not even well enough to have a conversation about the weather, much less emotionally-charged issues that arose when we were both very immature. Frankly, the awkwardness of such a conversation as you envisage and the stirring of long-dead ashes would serve no useful purpose for me, even if she were to come to me with a heartfelt apology. Actually, it would bring back the conflicts, the ugly words, and emotions...and that’s not who I want to be now. Again, what works for one may not be the best for another person.

And I think that would be the prevailing belief about re-contact. I know about five people altogether who chose this course. All of them felt much like you did....but those fears didn't prove true. Apparently....many of the exes were also longing for closure.

Think about how difficult all R talks are....my H would rather have a root canal. They are certainly uncomfortable....especially when they involve baring our own failure. They are also some of the most productive and life changing. As an example....I had a very hard conversation with my mother before she died. She had failed to protect me from an abusive step-father when I was a teenager. She handled it badly, and in the process....created more pain for me. That conversation did !indeed! dredge up the most horrible memories of my life. But without that conversation....I would never have really healed.

Quote
Also, for what it’s worth, please remember MFZ did apologize to his ex-wife at the time and place that (to me) such a thing was appropriate. Furthermore, he willingly transferred much of his accumulated wealth to her. Since his wife apparently didn’t suffer very long, and moved on with her life almost immediately (requesting MFZ never contact her again), I’m just not sure contacting her and apologizing again would serve any purpose beyond a symbolic gesture. What can you say that is very meaningful after you say you’re sorry? For me (and perhaps for others), respectfully, this is just not beneficial and I’m afraid it has the potential to do a lot of harm.

You cannot say anything....and "sorry" doesn't begin to address the harm. It's lip service. You must do something. You must demonstrate change. And the biggest part of contrition is that it changes YOU from the inside out. When you sow destruction....you reap it. When you sow compassion and integrity...you will reap that as well.

Mr. W....I don't know how to make an adulterous marriage UNadulterous either. Ultimately....the final judgement is not mine. But I suspect that it will never be unadulterous unless their is contrition and restitution for the past. *TO ME*.....It's not enough to stop hurting someone. It's not enough to change. Real restitution requires greater spiritual amounts of energy than I expended on being selfish. I would need to expend 10 times the energy making it right....that I did making it wrong. I would certainly have to stop making excuses and explanations about WHY I did the things I did and why it doesn't matter that I repair what I can.

Longhorn....I challenge you to stretch yourself and explore a "larger" response. I'm asking the same of Zog. What can you contribute to the good in your life/world....to compensate for your mistakes? We all face the same dilemma....don't we? I have my own compensation to provide to those I've harmed....and I try to do that. I'm my own "Earl" lOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I do....respect your thoughts as well.
AP: yes I have considered hiding from these people behind a new name. It is unpleasant to see their bitterness paraded through my thread but I use IGNORE when I have to. If others denied me their advice because of their postings, or if I felt that was happening, I would do as you suggest. They have driven at least one other person away (I hope she is OK without MB help or perhaps she is still around under a new name) so I will resist as long as I have the support of others.
These Jihadists claim to be protecting other vulnerable people who might stumble across my story and be hurt. My story is not an advertisement for the benefits of adultery but that point seems to escape them. It is far from clear whether anyone has actually asked for their protection.
mmmmm...

who is the terrorist here.

Once again...hello, pot.

W
Star, I think you were suggesting that I revisit my previous M in my head to see if there were common problems. I agree I was emotionally immature 30 years ago but I learnt never to inflict such pain again and hoped it would never be inflicted on me. The common factor I see is that I didn't explain my needs when things went wrong. The first time I turned to another woman, the second to my job. I think MB principles can help me this time, if I get the chance to apply them.
Posted By: 2long Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 10:44 PM
Quote
Zog,

I know a woman who left her husband and married her affair partner. Their six children showed the wear and tear. When her affair partner/new husband began to cheat on her....one of the things she realized was that many of her current marital problems were planted during the initial affair and linked to that past. After ten years in the 2nd marriage, and two affairs by her current husband....she decided to revisit the past and start again. In order to stop the cycle of affairs....and give her current marriage authenticity....she had to explore her own feelings of entitlement and selfishness at the beginning of the cycle. She decided to recontact her ex-husband and mend some fences....for the children....but also to create a new foundation from which to understand why her new marriage had reached the same conclusion as her old one, and end the affair dynamics. The result as incredibly healing for everyone. She began this process alone....because it was something to do that didn't depend on the help from her still fogged and uninvested husband. Eventually....he had to get on board....but I believe it was empowering for her.

Hi Starfish!

Knowing a lot of this story, I'm very glad you posted it here. I haven't looked back at the previous pages of this thread in a long time, so I apologize if it was already suggested, but:

Would it make sense 2 suggest MFZ go 2 the site where she hangs out for some more detailed pointers?

Given this kind of si2ation, and MFZ's age, I believe that any recovery will be very, very difficult 2 achieve. But the effort would certainly produce valuable results - regardless of whether the marriage survives or not.

But I find myself thinking about what JL said 2 me on my In Recovery thread last week. As with JL, I'm about a decade behind MFZ in approaching "the endgame". I have 2 think hard about what I want the endgame 2 look like - my retirement lifestyle, specifically. I'm not positive what I'll do, given our his2ry. But if I had a si2ation similear 2 MFZ's, I'm pretty sure I would be contemplating my life on my own - or maybe someday with someone new.

I wouldn't even consider reconciliation in such a circumstance without professional help for both spouses. I may not even consider it if my W and I never go back 2 MC or coaching 2gether at some point. But I have more time than MFZ does (unless he lives a lot longer than I do, which may be possible <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

-ol' 2long
2L: I am very fit and hope - even though I have now reached the age when I qualify for free bus travel and a winter fuel allowance from the government - that I have 20 to 30 years to enjoy what ever relationships lie ahead. There are a lot of problems fixing this one but I don't see my age making them harder.
Posted By: 2long Re: Wife wants to stay but keep her lover too - 10/03/07 11:27 PM
I don't see my age as making solving my M problems harder, just somewhat less desirable.

Ac2ally, I'm only 5 years behind you, I realized.

-ol' 2long
Incredebil, Zog.
You haven't changed one bit in 15 years. So exactly when will that change happen to you?

By all of your standards, it will be never. I feel the loss of your soul.

Good luck to you my friend,
You will need it and then some,

All blessings,
Jerry
In a 12 step program, there are different kinds of amends. One is face to face apologizing. Another is making restitution, and the third is a public admission. It is the third one that you can most likely work on.

Just me, but I wouldn't appreciate a man coming to my door after 28 years (and when he is experiencing infidelity to boot), and apologizing.

It does sound like you made some restitution with a settlement.

And like Star says, just saying you are sorry sometimes isn't all that helpful.

As far as your marriage now, it is still very early to be expecting much from her. I WOULD be very vigilant about dead flowers, though.
Your comments feel about right to me Believer, thanks.
© Marriage Builders® Forums