I sorta got attached to my old thread title, so I incorporated it in this new one. God willing, my next thread title will just be "Finally Rebirthing My Marriage."
With that, I give you the first draft of my PBL.
My Dearest B,
What I am writing to you now is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
I love you with all my heart despite everything that has happened before and during our marriage. To this day I remain emotionally and physically attracted to you. I still believe that God has a plan for us, that he gave us DS6 and DD3 for reason, and that He expects us to fulfill that. You are my first love, my only love. However every time I see you or talk to you I feel the tremendous pain from the wound that has been inflicted in me. I want so much for things to be different, and I want so much more than you are willing to give me right now.
I accept my responsibility in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I never fully understood or embraced how to meet your most important emotional needs. Even though I went to counseling both alone and together with you I was often not there for the right reasons and so I never allowed myself grow and change as I should have. I have already apologized to you for this and I desperately hope that one day you will forgive me and allow us to create a new future together.
During these last 8 months I have learned so much about myself and about what I need to do to make our marriage better. I still have more steps to take, but I have attempted to demonstrate to you what I have learned in the limited time we have had together. Most importantly, I have learned that there is no one and nothing as important to me as you are. I hope that you have seen these changes in me and that you will see the ones yet to come.
Whatever problems we had I am confident that we can overcome them together and take the necessary steps to create a new loving marriage in which we are both fulfilled. I have a vision for our marriage that I have not had before and I often dream of what that will be like. I want to hold on to all the memories we have made, both good and bad, and begin to make new and better ones.
I have tried so hard in this extremely difficult time of physical and emotional separation from you to maintain some kind of connection with you and I thank you for the few times you let me in. However I can no longer endure the excruciating pain that I am faced with daily. Knowing that you have continued to give yourself to someone else absolutely shreds my heart; yet I still have hope that one day we can build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me, and I want you as my best friend.
So I’m asking you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that if you decide to give our marriage a new chance, I will still have love left for you and will want to try again. The only way I can do this is to end all contact with you until your affair has ended. I say this with tears in my eyes because this is not what I want, but knowing that you would rather be with someone else everyday is destroying the love I have for you.
Please do not call me, send e-mails, or leave voice messages unless you have separated from OM, will agree to NC for life and have decided that you want to work on building a new relationship with me.
If you should need to reach me in case of an emergency, you can send an e-mail to our friends XXXX at XXXXX and they will get a message to me.
<The piece about the kids will go here>
I want you in my life more than anything, but I want all of you to myself alone. Sharing you is just too painful and is not an option.
I know the narrow path that we must walk in order to rebuild our marriage and I hope that you will decide to walk it with me.
JMHO, don't make your letter show your actions dependent on her actions. Let her know that at this time, you need to move forward for the sake of yourself and your family. I wouldn't even say you will love her....I would rephrase it that you 'may love her'.
Why? Because she needs to see you leaving her as a WS. Let her know you love your W but NOT the WS. Some may disagree with differentiating between the 2, but I see it as a valuable tool to use.
After several false recoveries, when I pulled out plan B it came with higher stakes. Each time he failed, the stakes for his return went UP not down.
I even told my then WS that HE as a WS had taught US (his family) HOW to live WITHOUT him. If he wanted back he had to show convincing evidence he was worth taking back that if he was going to make it too difficult to do so, then he must be willing to LOSE his family.
I was no longer willing to be his pawn for the excuse to have an A.
I think it is lovely, I really do. However, I'm not a good one for critiquing the content of PBLs. I had about a dozen editors on mine, polishing it up, making me think about other things to include. I really liked the results.
A few things that I included on the advice of others: something about what it is/was about WH that I loved...what drew me to him in the first place. The whole first third of my PBL was "I love you because...." I did everything, from things he did for me and the boys, to the things that he did for others, to the way he "saw" things around him...
mimi kept telling me it was supposed to be a love letter. For you, I think that's doubly important, women LOVE love letters. (well, I would, if I had ever gotten one...)
The other part was the "I want you--not some other man, to...." fill in the blank. I did stuff like "hold my hand while our children get married." Another laundry list.
This type of thing may be particularly important if you are including an entire section about the kids. This letter needs to be about YOU and HER...your relationship, your marriage, your history, your future. The kids will always be her kids (crappy mom or not). Why should she be with YOU? Make sense?
I also had this, but it may be too harsh: "I cannot and will not share you. I cannot and will never be your “friend.” I can only be your wife, in every sense of the word, in the way that I promised to you and to God. That is the only type of relationship that I can accept.
Because our current relationship does not meet that standard, I must end all contact with you. Out of respect for my position and my need to protect myself, please do not call, send e-mails, or leave messages."
Because she's a WOMAN (duh), I'd try to get a little more sentimental. But you know her best. And you are a guy, and I am very wordy, as you know. Kind of a gut spiller.
Part of what I wrote was for ME, too....these were things that I HAD to say, knowing that it would potentially be the very last loving kind of communication that I would ever have with him...ever...for the rest of my life.
Thanks for your comments. I was trying to avoid the "It's too long" comments, thus I tried to keep it short and maybe that made it somewhat less emotional than it could/should be.
I think I can work in some of the things you both mention and still keep it at a reasonable length.
I wanted to point something out to you. What you wrote for your very first draft of a PBL was OUTSTANDING!! It doesn't need to be completely re-written or entirely lengthened...but both Orchid and LilSis make very valid suggestions. It SHOULD be to the point, yet sometimes, for a FEELER female type of person, a loving, sentimental walk down memory lane is very effective--and so it a loving, sentimental walk down your dreams for the future.
You know yourself and your W the best. Is she more likely to respond to a list of the things you love about her and the good memories you shared? Or is she more likely to respond to a letter that is a bit shorter and to the point? Is she a factual type or an emotional, feely type? Write YOUR Plan B letter to fit HER, not to fit one of us. Okay??
Otherwise, I believe my comment on it is going to be "excellent job!!!" I personally was amazed at how clearly and succinctly who wrote and how you kept it to the suggested letter in SAA. VERY, VERY GOOD!!
Mama Bee,
CJ
P.S. Are you working on getting some of your other ducks in a row? I assume your intermediary is lined up...how about separating finances and getting bills into your own name...that kind of thing?
Yes, other "ducks" are lining up. I already had all the bills in my name and our finance are already separated - I just need to get her name off the joint account and get the ATM card back (we left this in place since the first court date).
Thanks for all the comments so far. I am still working on version 2, should have it up tonight I hope.
With no kids this weekend I slept till noon then went out to do yard work (or yard pleasure). Now I am off for some "Me" time - may just go catch a movie or something.
Feeling pretty good today actually <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have long disagreed with the composition of Plan B letters as advised on MB. It is always seeded with thoughts of love, expectation, reformation, history and promises of unbelievable perfection.
My Plan B letter as stated numerous times before:
" WW, I love you. I will not share you. When you feel the same , call me. Until that time all communication will go through XXXXX."
If your WW does not know EVERYTHING that you have written in your above letter, you should not be going into a Plan B.
OK draft #2. I think I have the right amount of emotional/feely type references that will register with her without being overly sappy.
My Dearest B,
What I am writing to you now is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
I love you with all my heart despite everything that has happened before and during our marriage. To this day I remain emotionally and physically attracted to you. I still believe that God has a plan for us, that he gave us DS6 and DD3 for reason, and that He expects us to fulfill that.
You are my first love, my only love. I remember all the first things I experienced with you – our first date, our first kiss, our first road trip, our first overnight, our first touch, our first time.
I want so much for things to be different. I want to give you so much more that you are willing to accept, and I want so much more than you are willing to give. I want you to be the one who meets my most important needs. I want you to be the one I hold and rock to sleep at night. I want you to be the one I snuggle with on the couch to watch a movie. I want you to be the one whose hand I hold as we stroll through the neighborhood or walk along the beach. As we vowed to each other, I want to be your best friend and I want you to be my best friend. I want you to be the one that sings the lover’s song with me.
I want you to be the one who raises our children together with me in our home. I want you to be the one who prays with them and tucks them in with me at night. I want you to be my partner in raising our children daily through their most difficult times in life. I want you to be the one who sits beside me holding hands as we watch our son and daughter one day graduate from high school and college and even get married. I want our marriage to be a model of what they should seek in their own marriage.
I accept my responsibility in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I never fully understood or embraced how to meet your most important emotional needs. Even though I went to counseling both alone and together with you I was often not there for the right reasons and so I never allowed myself grow and change as I should have. I have already apologized to you for this and I desperately hope that one day you will forgive me and allow us to create a new future together.
During these last 8 months I have learned so much about myself and about what I need to do to make our marriage better. I still have more steps to take, but I have attempted to demonstrate to you what I have learned in the limited time we have had together. Most importantly, I have learned that there is no one and nothing as important to me as you are. I hope that you have seen these changes in me and that you will see the ones yet to come.
Whatever problems we had I am confident that we can overcome them together and take the necessary steps to create a new loving marriage in which we are both fulfilled. I have a vision for our marriage that I have not had before and I often dream of what that will be like. I want to hold on to all the memories we have made, both good and bad, and begin to make new and better ones.
I have tried so hard in this extremely difficult time of physical and emotional separation from you to maintain some kind of connection with you and I thank you for the few times you let me in; however nearly every time I see you or talk to you I feel the tremendous excruciating pain from the wound that has been inflicted in me and I can no longer endure that. Knowing that you have continued to give yourself to someone else absolutely shreds my heart; yet I still have hope that one day we can build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
I want you in my life more than anything, but I want all of you to myself alone. Sharing you is just too painful and is not an option. I want to be your husband, just like I promised you in front of God and our families. I cannot lower my standard and just be your friend.
Therefore I’m asking you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that if you decide to give our marriage a new chance, I might still have some love left for you and might want to try again. The only way I can do this is to end all contact with you until your affair has ended. I say this with tears in my eyes because this is not what I want, but knowing that you would rather be with someone else everyday is destroying the love I have for you.
Please do not call me, send e-mails, or leave voice messages unless our kids are in a dire emergency. When you have separated from OM, will agree to NC for life and have decided that you want to work on building a new relationship with me, please contact our friends XXXX at XXXXX and they will get a message to me.
<details of exchanging the kids goes here>
I know the narrow path that we must walk in order to rebuild our marriage and I hope that you will decide to walk it with me.
It seems a little long. I would make sure that it all fits on one page single spaced 12pt font. If it doesn't, you might want to pair it down a little. Remember, if it is too long, she might miss the point of it. The only key points she needs to know is kid exchange, your conditions for ending plan B, you will have NC with her until she agrees to those conditions, and the door is still open....for now.
Like LilSis said, at the risk of this being the last communication with her I will leave it a little long to make sure it says everything I want it to say, in addition to laying out boundaries and how to end plan B.
Want vs. Need:
My initial reaction is I don't need her to be those things, rather I want her to be those things. Honestly, I can survive whichever way this goes. I've lived 6 months without her so I know I don't need her - I overcame that fear pretty quickly, especially regarding the care of the kids.
Not only will plan B protect the love I have left, it will protect the desire to want her to be all those things.
I watched a movie the other day, forget which one, but the line that stuck with me was 'I CAN live without you, I just don't want to'
The fact is that loving our WS IS a choice we have made. We CAN and WILL continue on, with or without them. For now, we CHOOSE to want them to be our spouse.
After reviewing your newly revised PBL, I have these comments:
You added
Quote
You are my first love, my only love. I remember all the first things I experienced with you – our first date, our first kiss, our first road trip, our first overnight, our first touch, our first time.
This is EXCELLENT!!! These are good, loving memories that you have shared with her that have a likelihood of evoking fond feelings for her (especially if she is sort of a Feeler type). VERY GOOD ADDITION!!!
Your next paragraph is:
Quote
I want so much for things to be different. I want to give you so much more that you are willing to accept, and I want so much more than you are willing to give. I want you to be the one who meets my most important needs. I want you to be the one I hold and rock to sleep at night. I want you to be the one I snuggle with on the couch to watch a movie. I want you to be the one whose hand I hold as we stroll through the neighborhood or walk along the beach. As we vowed to each other, I want to be your best friend and I want you to be my best friend. I want you to be the one that sings the lover’s song with me.
Just a quick thought...are these things that YOU want or things that she has expressed in the past are things that SHE wants in a lover? My impression is that right now she has closed her heart and is unwilling to do these things with you--so hearing a list of things that YOU want in a wife may affect her in a negative way--not a romantic way. OTOH, if she told you that she wants to be able to snuggle on the couch, or walk hand-in-hand on the beach with someone and at the time you ignored it and didn't realize the impact of what she was saying...THEN I WOULD LEAVE IT IN. If it's just a long list of what you wish you could do with the woman who is your wife, then I would edit it so that it's a list of what she has always longed for in a partner (if you know what that is).
Your next paragraph says:
Quote
I want you to be the one who raises our children together with me in our home. I want you to be the one who prays with them and tucks them in with me at night. I want you to be my partner in raising our children daily through their most difficult times in life. I want you to be the one who sits beside me holding hands as we watch our son and daughter one day graduate from high school and college and even get married. I want our marriage to be a model of what they should seek in their own marriage.
I think my previous comment might also apply here. Are these things that she has expressed to you are things that SHE wants? Has she said to you how much she misses being able to be a mom full-time because she has to split kid-time with you? Then leave it in...otherwise, try to think back to the things she has told you are the things SHE wants and SHE finds valuable. I know it's hard, because she's in a wayward state of mind right now, and she's not exactly open to doing romantic things WITH YOU. But Eph525, the point of adding these is to show her that you are now willing to be the lover that SHE wants.
Does that make sense?
(For example, let's say that she used to sort of mention to you, "I wish you'd just cuddle up with me and watch girly-movies" and in the past you pretty much blew her off. NOW you are writing to her to express that you 'get it' and you understand those kinds of emotional connections are important to maintain!)
Soooo...if I were you, I would go through those two paragraphs and change the focus from what YOU want in a wife, to what SHE wants in a husband. Does she WANT to settle down and be a mommy? Does she want walk on the beach? And also bear in mind that you're not feeding into wayward illusion here. You are not going to be her "fantasy lover" and should not hold yourself to a standard that is imaginary. Rather, it's almost like a confession--you didn't hear her in the past, how much she needed those things and now you not only hear what she mentioned in the past are traits that she admires, but you can see why it's important to meet her needs.
FINALLY...and in conclusion....I want to point out that the intermediary position is for ALL communication (unless there's blood or fire.) The way you have written it sounds like, "When you're ready to end your A, email our friends Bob and Sue." In reality it should say, "If you have something to say to me, contact Bob and Sue." Can you see the difference?? Your way, she could say, "Eph525, I'm not ready to leave OM so called you instead of calling Bob or Sue. Who do you think you are telling me I can not call you? Blah-blah-blah-blame-blame-blame-babble-babble-babble." In that instance, you will not achieve the peace of Plan B because the wound will constantly be picked!! To achieve maximum Plan B effectiveness, you MUST HAVE an intermediary to edit out the WS's barbs and arrows and just pass along facts. If you give her the option to email you, trust me when I say that she will abuse that option and start using emails then to get her "point anger in Eph's direction" fix. Just like for the WS--No Contact means NO CONTACT, while in Plan B.
OK, my internet connection was down Monday night and most of today (Tuesday) - even this techno geek could not fix it. Thanks so much Charter for your great service that you drop when it freaking rains hard.
so..... to answer your questions CJ:
Mostly those are things she expressed a desire for and we did do to some extent.
hold and rock to sleep - she loved it, always wanted it snuggle - also loved it hold hands and walk - loved it meets my most important needs - OK, I want this. BUT she always wanted me to express my needs, to talk with her about "anything and everything." Maybe I'll reword it.
Quote
Has she said to you how much she misses being able to be a mom full-time because she has to split kid-time with you?
You know, now that I think about this she has NOT expressed this to me at all except to say she wants the kids with her.
I'll work to reword those two paragraphs. Point also taken on the intermediary.
What I am writing to you now is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
I love you with all my heart despite everything that has happened before and during our marriage. To this day I remain emotionally and physically attracted to you. I still believe that God has a plan for us, that he gave us DS6 and DD3 for reason, and that He expects us to fulfill that.
You are my first love, my only love. I remember all the first things I experienced with you – our first date, our first kiss, our first road trip, our first overnight, our first touch, our first time.
I want so much for things to be different. I want to give you so much more that you are willing to accept and receive so much more than you are willing to give. Now that I more fully understand my own needs I want to express them to you so that you are able to meet them. I want you to be the one I hold and rock to sleep at night. I want you to be the one I snuggle with on the couch to watch a movie or talk about anything and everything. I want you to be the one whose hand I hold as we stroll through the neighborhood or walk along the beach. I want to be best friends as we vowed to each other.
I want you to be the one who is a partner with me raising our children together in our home. I don’t want to settle for less than 100% of my time with our kids. I want you to be the one who sits beside me holding hands as we watch our son and daughter one day graduate from high school and college and even get married. I want our marriage to be a model of what they should seek in their own marriage.
I accept my responsibility in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I never fully understood or embraced how to meet your most important emotional needs. Even though I went to counseling both alone and together with you I was often not there for the right reasons and so I never allowed myself grow and change as I should have. I have already apologized to you for this and I desperately hope that one day you will forgive me and allow us to create a new future together and allow me to show you that I can be everything you want.
During these last 8 months I have learned so much about myself and about what I need to do to make our marriage better. I still have more steps to take, but I have attempted to demonstrate to you what I have learned in the limited time we have had together. Most importantly, I have learned that there is no one and nothing as important to me as you are. I hope that you have seen these changes in me and that you will see the ones yet to come.
Whatever problems we had I am confident that we can overcome them together and take the necessary steps to create a new loving marriage in which we are both fulfilled. I have a vision for our marriage that I have not had before and I often dream of what that will be like. I want to hold on to all the memories we have made, both good and bad, and begin to make new and better ones.
I have tried so hard in this extremely difficult time of physical and emotional separation from you to maintain some kind of connection with you and I thank you for the few times you let me in; however nearly every time I see you or talk to you I feel the tremendous excruciating pain from the wound that has been inflicted in me and I can no longer endure that. Knowing that you have continued to give yourself to someone else absolutely shreds my heart; yet I still have hope that one day we can build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
I want you in my life more than anything, but I want all of you to myself alone. Sharing you is just too painful and is not an option. I want to be your husband, just like I promised you in front of God and our families. I cannot lower my standard and just be your friend. Therefore I’m asking you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that if you decide to give our marriage a new chance, I might still have some love left for you and might want to try again. The only way I can do this is to end all contact with you until your affair has ended and you will agree to NC for life with OM. I say this with tears in my eyes because this is not what I want, but knowing that you would rather be with someone else everyday is destroying the love I have for you.
Please do not call me, send e-mails, or leave voice messages unless our kids are in a dire emergency. All communications should go through our friends XXXX at XXXX and they will communicate with me.
<details of exchanging the kids goes here>
I know the narrow path that we must walk in order to rebuild our marriage and I hope that you will decide to walk it with me.
I want you in my life more than anything, in a exclusive loving marriage. Sharing you is just too painful and is not an option. I am your husband. I am unable to lower my standards and just be your friend. I also believe it to be very unhealthy for me to model acceptance of your infidilety to our children. I am certain that through God everything is possible; and, if reconciliation can ever be accomplished I believe strongly it is what is ultimately the best outcome for you, me and especially our children. In accordance with what may someday be God's will, it is with a heavy heart that I must indicate today that I need to protect what feelings remain for you so that if you should decide to give our marriage and family another chance, I may actually still have some love left for you and remain willing to try again myself. The only way I can protect my feelings for you is to limit all contact with you until your affair has ended and you agree to NC for life with OM.
Therefore, until such day that you are readily willing to meet these simple conditions and undertake rebuilding our family, please do not call me, send e-mails, text me, and/or leave voice messages unless with regards to emergencies involving our children. I have arranged for all our communications to go through our mutual friends XXXX at XXXX.
<details of exchanging the kids goes here>
I know the narrow path that we must walk in order to rebuild our marriage and I hope that someday soon you will decide to walk it with me.
With love and regret,
Eph
*I don't usually comment on Plan B letters. Never had to do one and don't like revising and drafting them. The lawyer in me also gets really nervous about how these things will play out later when the WS attorney gets his/her hands on it to paint you as vindictive, controlling, manipulative, possessive...whatever. That's one reason I chimed in because I didn't like the line "I want you to myself, alone". It sounded very possessive.
I also wish you could find a way to be more about saving the family and the doing this "in the best interests of the kids". I tried to find a way to get that into your words but this letter is long enough and I don't want to write this for you. Regretfully, as you've already rewritten it severally time, I, too, would like it to be somehow much shorter (however, I see how hard that is just trying to rewrite that one paragraph).
I understand what MrW is saying about how the Plan B Letter could be perceived by the WS and has the potential to be used in the D as your attempt to be controlling. Thus, even though you've re-written it a couple times, I suggest re-reading it with that PARTICULAR issue foremost in your mind.
In my personal opinion, I do not see Eph525 (or most any BS who goes into Plan B) as attempting to control the WS at all...but rather I see their own attempt to regain control of their own life and get the WS drama out of their life. Thus, as I re-read Eph's letter, I see him saying that he want to honor the legal contract he made at marriage; I see him mentioning specific things that his WW said she had wanted in a partner; and then I see him stating what his personal boundary is. He is not trying to control the WW at all. She has the option to choose him unequivocally or to choose someone else--but if she chooses someone else, she can no longer has the benefits of HIS friendship, etc. Finally, he make reasonable arrangements for communicating non-emergency messages...and for Emergencies regarding the children only.
Eph--for you I would say that it's a fine line between including those romantic things and the Plan B Line being longish. However, I trust you and you know your WW WAY better than we do, and if she has a romantic side, I'd let it be a little long.
OK, I made a few more mods, rewording, etc. Even got in a statement about the kid's best interests. I think leaving in the romantic memories and such will be worth it and outweighs the fact it is long (it's actually a little over 1 page long in Arial 10pt font)
So here is draft 4:
My Dearest B,
What I am writing to you now is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
I love you with all my heart despite everything that has happened before and during our marriage. To this day I remain emotionally and physically attracted to you. I still believe that God brought us together and has a plan for us, that he gave us DS6 and DD3 for a reason, and that He expects us to fulfill that.
You are my first love, my only love. I remember all the first things we experienced together – our first date, our first kiss, our first road trip, our first overnight, our first touch, our first time.
I want so much for things to be different. I want to give you so much more that you are willing to accept and to receive so much more than you are willing to give. Now that I more fully understand my own needs I want to express them to you so that you are able to meet them. I want you to be the one I hold and rock to sleep at night. I want you to be the one I snuggle with on the couch to watch a movie or talk about anything and everything. I want you to be the one whose hand I hold as we stroll through the neighborhood or walk along the beach. I want to be best friends as we vowed to each other.
I want and need you to be the one who is a partner with me raising our children together in our home. They especially need this and should not have to settle for less than 100% of either of us. I want you to be the one who sits beside me and whose hand I hold as we watch our son and daughter one day graduate from high school and college and even get married. I want our marriage to be a model of what they should seek in their own marriage.
I accept my responsibility in creating an environment that helped make your affairs possible. I never fully understood or embraced how to meet your most important emotional needs. Even though I went to counseling both alone and together with you I was often not there for the right reasons and so I never allowed myself grow and change as I should have. I have already apologized to you for this and I desperately hope that one day you will forgive me and allow me to show you that I can be everything you want and need.
During these last 8 months I have learned so much about myself and about what I need to do to make our marriage better. I still have more steps to take, but I have attempted to demonstrate to you what I have learned in the limited time we have had together. Most importantly, I have learned that there is no one and nothing as important to me as you are. I hope that you have seen these changes in me and that you will see the ones yet to come.
Whatever problems we had I am confident that we can overcome them together and take the necessary steps to create a new loving marriage in which we are both fulfilled. I have a vision for our marriage that I have not had before and I often dream of what that will be like. I want to hold on to all the memories we have made, both good and bad, and begin to make new and better ones.
I have tried so hard in this extremely difficult time of physical and emotional separation from you to maintain some kind of connection with you and I thank you for the few times you let me in; however nearly every time I see you or talk to you I feel the tremendous excruciating pain from the wound that has been inflicted in me from your lies and I can no longer endure that. Knowing that you have continued to give yourself to someone else absolutely shreds my heart; yet I still hold on to the hope that one day we can build a new marriage in which everything we do makes us both happy and there will never again be a reason for us to separate.
I want more than anything to have you in my life more in an exclusive and loving marriage. Sharing you is just too painful and is not an option. I am your husband, just like I promised you in front of God and our families, and I cannot lower my standards and just be your friend. I also will not model acceptance of you infidelity to our children – I don’t believe that is in their best interests. Therefore I’m asking you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that if you decide to give our marriage a new chance, I might still have some love left for you and might want to try again. The only way I can do this is to end all contact with you until your affair has ended and you will agree to NC for life with OM. I say this with tears in my eyes because this is not what I want, but knowing that you would rather be with someone else everyday is destroying the love I have for you.
Until such time as you are willing to meet these conditions, please do not call me, send e-mails, or leave voice messages unless there is an emergency regarding our children. I have arranged for all our communications to go through our friends L&R at XXXX.
Also, for the remainder of the summer I will drop the kids off at K’s house around 8:15am and you can pick them up at your convenience afterwards. Likewise, please drop the kids off at her house again at 5:15pm so I can pick them up around 5:30pm. Once school begins for both DS6 and DD3 we will modify this as necessary.
I know the narrow path that we must walk in order to rebuild our marriage and I hope that someday soon you will decide to walk it with me.
Wow. Truly. WOW! I think that is a very good Plan B letter. If I "change names to protect the innocent" could I use it as one of my sample Plan B Letters in my thread?
Wow, thanks for the compliment CJ. I have no problem with you using it - if someone else can benefit from it that's great.
OK, so I have other details to post about now.
I have a meeting with my attorney today to discuss next steps. I cannot remember if I already mentioned this - there has been absolutely no movement whatsoever from my WW or her attorney since our mediation session back on Apr 27.
A few weeks ago I sent my attorney a counter offer to review, but told him to just sit on it because as long as she was not doing anything I was not gonna do anything either. We will just tighten it up so it's ready when we need it.
Also, he mentioned that he and the GAL had a brief discussion. The GAL is more than slightly PO'ed about also not hearing anything from WW or her attorney. I've been the only one in contact with her regarding DS6's surgery and recovery. Also made a direct comment about WW scheduling the surgery without discussing it with me. It's not looking good for WW right now.
Then Tuesday WW called be about DS6 not having his blanket. I told her I was out to eat and it would be late before I could get it there. She then asked me to bring one of his other blankets to keep at her place - I said sure whatever.
Well when I picked the kids up yesterday he suddenly had some new blanket that WW had acquired and did not want him to bring home. And then last night he was quite upset that he could not have it and wanted me to ask WW if he could bring it home.
I sent her this message this morning (I did not see her because I took the kids directly to VBS)
Quote
DS6 was quite upset to not have his new blue blanket last night. I know he has so many, but I guess I do not see any harm in him keeping this blue one with him either at your house or our house. He is old enough to be responsible for it and I think he should be. What are your thoughts on that? Thanks.
In recent weeks she as acquired another bird, an above ground pool, and more toys for the kids. All the while I am spending money on doctor's bills, debts, clothes for the kids, etc. One thing I am asking my attorney about is a possible reduction in CS. It's ridiculous that I am supporting two households and I am going into more debt myself. Sheesh.
Wow. Truly. WOW! I think that is a very good Plan B letter. If I "change names to protect the innocent" could I use it as one of my sample Plan B Letters in my thread?
Seriously. It is REALLY GOOD. You're ready.
--CJ
I totally agree with this!!! It is awesome!!! Made me cry! If she's not moved by it, something's wrong with her!!! (well, at least more than we already know) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
"...but I guess I do not see any harm in him keeping this blue one with him either at your house or our house."
Beautiful!! This is EXACTLY how to frame this. She probably didnt even recognize this. But the more you say it, the more it becomes FACT, even in her mind. It is HER house and OUR home. The kids are then shown as being a part of the family home but the place your wife is at is only HER place. It may not sound like a big deal...but words mean things. Both in court and in real life! Keep this up.
Also, keep documenting everything, including all of the junk she is buying. When it comes out in court, the judge just may decide that you pay too much!
The fact she has had no contact with the GAL does not bode well for her. Keep up your end of it, as you will continue to show that you are the better parent.
All lawyers recommend against it! Most dont understand the concept. The ones that do, just dont want the added hassle of dealing with false allegations by opposing counsel. The ones that say that you are being unreasonable and not working with her for the sake of the kids.
This is why Mr. W talked about having the kid stuff all over your PBL.
Again, as has been said before...you do NOT have to get along with her. You do NOT even have to have a conversation with her. You MUST communicate with her concerning the kids. And that communication can come in any form as long as it is reasonable.
Your attorney is advising what, legally, is the best and easiest route. But what he is not taking into consideration is your mental and emotional health. and if you are not able to get away from the situation, then you will most likely damage your legal situation in far worse ways!
You are being advised by Dr. Harley (Steve) and his world-renowned principles. You are not going off half-cocked and trying to punish your wife.
So, write back what the attorney said. And we'll see. But remember...your attorney works for you, not the other way around! And he only has one view of the situation...and one goal. You have a larger picture.
OK, so I gave my attorney this short summary of my plans:
The counselor I am working with is one of the most renown when it comes to dealing with infidelity. So far I have been trying to do my best to show my WW that our marriage is worth fighting for and saving. Unfortunately due to her continued lying and such, I have reached a point where the interactions with her are too painful and I need to protect what little love I have left. His recommendation is to protect what is left and completely eliminate all direct interactions with her. I will have an intermediary for communications and child exchanges.
My attorney said that bringing intermediaries into the picture could be perceived as me not wanting to communicate with her (even though I stressed this was not the case), especially if we are going for joint custody of the kids. he did thank me for sharing with him what my plans were rather than just acting on them.
He suggested that sole custody might be an option based on her behaviors and he would "feel out" the GAL when he next speaks with her to see what she had to say. I have made no statements regarding custody to her, not were any made by me in mediation so it would be easy to come back with this as an option.
I asked him if he wanted any of my documentation on our interactions showing more of her lies. He said he did not think that was necessary at this time.
I agree, he is advising what is best legally and I think that needs to be considered here. But you make a great point about my mental and emotional state damaging my legal position as well. Maybe I should let him read my plan B letter?
I think I'll get an appt with SH and discuss this and get his take as well.
I was really hoping it would not be this big of an issue.
I feel like I am in the twilight zone between plan A and plan B - not wanting to do plan A and not able to do plan B (see above).
Then I get up this morning and the water main line is gushing water into the basement, all over boxes of clothes and other stuff that is packed up. I ran out to the meter and shut it off but who knows how long it has been going on.
Then I get the kids to WW's place and ask her if I can can come in and wash my hands - she says it's OK. Then as I am leaving she asks about getting some of the kid's games to play since she has none and it's raining outside.
She first asked if she could go to the house and get them and I said no that I would bring a few over. Then as I am driving down the road to work I am asking myself "Why did I agree to that?" She bought all that other stuff why can't she go buy them some games.
Now I have this inner battle going on - keep my agreement or call her back and say sorry these are the consequences for your decisions. The whole back-and-forth decision dynamic.
Then while I am talking to God during the drive I am saying "Lord, I don't have the physical or emotional strength right now to do this. Spiritually I know that I need to rely on you and you will give me enough strength, but that is so hard right now. The song "Bring The Rain" by MercyMe captures what I know needs to be done:
Bring me joy, bring me peace Bring the chance to be free Bring me anything that brings You glory And I know there'll be days When this life brings me pain But if that's what it takes to praise You Jesus, bring the rain
It's easy to say that, but when the storm of life is raging around you it's so hard to do it.
I could really use some advice for how to convince my attorney regarding plan B. I basically want to say to him "This is what I am doing, I need you to figure out how to defend it." After all, that is his job.
Our sitchs are running parallel right now, aren't they?
My A advised me not to put the 'no contact' with Drac in a letter. She said I could just 'do it' but not to put it in writing for the same reasons your A gave
I have an appt w/Steve Thurs am and will be talking to him about all of this.
I will let you know what he says,,,as I am pretty certain it will be applicable to you as well.
My friend, you havg in there. Use whatever tools necessary to get thru to the next day.
I sometimes just 'pretend' that whatever HORRIBLE thing Drac just did (i.e. The lake/ho trip) never happened.
I lock it away in a box for right now.
Problem is, that box is starting to overflow,,,thus Plan B time is here.
That means in whatever form I have to do it in,, in writing or now, I will not continue in the current way and allow Drac to kill that last bit of love I have for him.
My new 'theme song' is Bonnie Raitt I will not be broken!
I didn't read where your lawyer said, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES DO THIS! I read him telling you to be cautious. As long as you have been clear and concise on EXACTLY how WW can send messages to you, then I'd say you are not refusing to communicate. Make sure that she knows exactly who to call, email, etc (giving emails, phone numbers), and under what circumstances. For instance, if her car ran out of gas, don't call you, HOWEVER, if the children are with her, she can get a message to you ASAP via text message.
With children, Plan B is not always as easy as it is without. You must leave open the lines of communication regarding emergencies, but you must DEFINE what an emergency is (don't assume your definition is the same as hers).
(((((Eph)))))--I'm so sorry that you are going through this pain. In my opinion, you should follow through with Plan B; don't sit in limbo, in pain, when you could reduce that pain and learn to rise above much of this squallor of limbo land.
AGAIN, just be sure that she is able to contact you via intermediary regarding the children, their schedules, visitation changes, school stuff, babysitters, heck, even what they are eating. Child care must continue, and you must be available for this, via intermediary. Otherwise, you do not have to talk to her at all, legally or otherwise.
You are a very strong man, and a wonderful example of a husband and father. I know it is tough, but give yourself a lot of credit for staying on the road you have chosen. I would listen carefully to your attorney. You can plan for Plan B, and get everything ready, but I would be very careful. I think you have a good chance to get custody of your kids. And THAT will wake her up - knowing that her choices have caused it.
I follow your thread religiously. LOL Both ways - I pray for you and pay attention. My friend said his lawyer said the same. He called SH and asked him if he was prepared to come to court to defend Plan B and MB in general (his WW wife found vernacular crude reference to herself by posters and brought that into legal discussion), SH said yes. Obviously you have to be able to meet his charges for such, but he didn't hesitate in his answer. My friend has not yet gone to court and now is trying to work through mediation. So that is all I can offer on that.
As far as following through on what you say. I think it shows you as an ethical man to take responsibility for your words, and if, in hindsight, They are not the words you might have used, then having to deal with the consequences may help you to be more thoughtful in future contact.
Oh and my friend is Plan Bing silently (no letter) on all but child welfare. It has certainly made a difference to his WW, she is NOT happy. He made that decision, after talking to SH about the court thing.
I could really use some advice for how to convince my attorney regarding plan B. I basically want to say to him "This is what I am doing, I need you to figure out how to defend it." After all, that is his job.
You answered your own question. That's exactly what you need to say to him. You respect his expertise in legal matters and expect him to defend you but you need to rely on others with proven expertise in matters of the heart. After all, you're goal is to restore your MARRIAGE. Your attorney's goal is to get you a fair settlement and custody arrangement in a DIVORCE.
And as far as the communication thing. Like SL said if you've clearly outlined how any necessary communication will go, then I don't think that can be seen as being uncooperative. Foremost in the Judge's mind in a custody matter is "the best interest of the children." How is Plan B NOT in the best interest of the children? Peace comes with Plan B instead of all the drama.
Thanks everyone for your wisdom and kind words of advice. It means so much to have so many people that I may never meet interested in my situation. MB has truly been one of the rocks I have stood on through all of this.
First thing - gotta deal with a plumber to take care of the leak. Don't know how long that will take. Hopefully will have water tonight.
plumbing issue will carry over until tomorrow. According to the guy who looked at it today, that section of plumbing was not done to code.
I was able to contact the company who did the original work and will request them to fix it at no cost. Should hear back form them tomorrow.
So I have no water tonight and I asked WW if the kids could stay with her since I could not do baths or use the toilets.
Of course WW wanted to talk about the whole situation, what was going on, what was being done to fix it. Seemed forced to me.
Got no idea how this all fits into the whole situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Silverpool, what you said is right on. Regarding the issue with the games earlier, I just went ahead and took them over and I will be more aware of such requests in the future.
Just been really blah this evening and I am calling it a night.
I'm going to make a long story short. Deal with your plumbing. Get your running water, and after you've had a nice, long, hot shower...then you can deal with Plan A/Plan B.
I will mention though that I agree with the chick <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> who said that she didn't see your lawyer FORBIDDING you to go to Plan b...just advising you of how it could be seen in a legal situation. Well, what your lawyer said was true. It's conceivable that someone could interpret that as you not wanting to "cooperatively parent" with WW...but it's just as conceivable that someone could interpret some of her behavior as being a pretty uncooperatiave parent too!! My point is that MANY, MANY people have gone into Plan B while in the midst of their D proceeding, and it has not been the deciding factor in their custody hearings. It is MUCH MORE LIKELY that her leaving the house, not caring for the kids for all those days, and not cooperating with the GAL will be a more deciding factor than you taking steps to protect yourself from her hurtful decisions. Especially if you show a copy of your Plan B letter to the judge, GAL, and her lawyer on court day!
She can communicate normal, daily things through the intermediary--but she really has no need to do that with you anymore because SHE chose to leave. She can communicate legal things through your lawyer or her lawyer or a mediator...that's the proper avenue anyway. And in a BLOOD or FIRE emergency, she does have the option to call!
Let me put this into perspective for you. Can the crossing guard at your kids' school call you for normal, daily issues that she has? Of course not, because she is not "anyone" to you. Neither is your STBX--she has turned down that privilege. She is equal to the grocery clerk. Could the crossing guard communicate legal things through her lawyer, your lawyer, court, or an intermediary? Yep. Could the crossing guard call you if it was a BLOOD or FIRE emergency? Sorta. That might be the only time she'd even THINK of calling you!! And if there was BLOOD or FIRE you'd probably help, huhh??
What you are requesting with Plan B is reasonable and not legally "actionable." So your lawyer is NOT telling you that you can not do Plan B.
I am sitting here trying to fathom the events of today. WW was in full effect.
When I went to pick up the kids this morning, WW comes out wearing a black t-shirt with "Munich Germany" written on it - the very same shirt I brought back from my trip to Germany last year. If you remember, that was the trip that, upon my return, WW gave me the letter stating she did not want to be married any more. To my knowledge she has never worn that shirt until now.
We had a water party today with some friends and their kids - inflatable pools, slip-n-slides, water guns, etc - and grilled out the perfect all-american meal of hot dogs and burgers. I still have my mad grilling skillz.
So then the kids and I head downtown tonight with another couple (L&R) and their daughter to watch the big fireworks display. Lo and behold, who should happen to walk by me within 10-15 feet? Yep, WW and some bald headed guy (BHOM). What are the odds of that?
She looked right at L&R, but I don't think she saw me becuase I had my back towards her and I was sitting away from them. The kids just happened to be running around and also were not nearby. L&R pointed her out to me and I saw them walking off in the distance. After they turned the corner I proceeded to walk in their direction but was unable to locate them. Probably a good thing as it would have been ugly. My heart was racing and adrenaline was pumping.
I then sent her a TM saying " What's up? Happy 4th" - of course got no reply. I don't think BHOM is the same as OM1 - good gosh how many are there now? Funny thing, though, BHOM appears to be meet the same description of someone WW was seen with some time back.
I was about to come out of my skin. I talked with a "voice of reason" who helped calm me down (thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).
I am sure I can catch her in a lie again tomorrow when I drop off the kids just by asking "So how was your day yesterday?"
I hope my lawyer is in the office tomorrow because I don't care if he does not recommend plan B or does not like plan B - I'm doing it. I can't take this anymore. To actually see this with my own eyes was devastating.
I don't want anything in this house that reminds me of her any more. I want my lawyer to push the custody arrangement once the GAL makes her recommendation, I want to go for sole legal custody because she has not demonstrated any ability to work together on decisions regarding the kids. This would eliminate CS from me and SHE would be paying me some small amount that I'd rather waive.
This was a tremendous withdrawal. I honestly don't know why I don't just skip plan B now and go straight to plan D. I am really feeling like there is no chance at all now. This about sums it up right now:
I tried so hard and got so far but in the end it doesn't even matter (from In the End, by Linkin Park)
Plan B isn't for your lawyer to mention. It is for you to implement. So let me ask you, do you feel your mind and heart are in sync? R U ready to move forward to get away from the WS and her drama?
Btw, I like your BOHM description. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You have taken a very hard blow to the LoveBank today, and I'm sorry you had to go through that pain. I'm also sorry that your WW does seem to be acting in a way that demonstrates that she realizes what the word "commitment" means. I'm sorry my friend. It still hurts, doesn't it?
You know, you have had the worst weak but since you're here and hurt, I have decided to press ahead. I was waiting for the right moment to say this to you, but this seems to be it: Eph, it seems to me that you have been dancing around Plan B for a LONG, LONG time now...too afraid to let go because you think that once you stop "holding on" to her, she will be gone. At this point, I need to firmly but loving ask you, as your mama bee, what are you holding on for? What are you waiting for? What is stopping you from going into Plan B...both for yourself and your WW?? Why are you waiting?
I feel a little like a mama bird pushing her baby out of the nest...not sure if it will fly or not. But my dear brother in Christ, it is time. It is time to push you out of the nest and you better either learn to fly or plummet! I sincerely and whole-heartedly do hope that you don't plummet, but you have GOT to take that big step. You're ready. Your heart is ready. Your head is ready. The time is right. Your ducks are in a row.
TAKE THE BIG STEP OFF THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF.
I know that you "think" you are going to plummet to your death. I KNOW!! But you won't, I promise you. We, your MB family, will all be here for you, any time you need us! It is like the scene in Indiana Jones and the last crusade, where he takes the step of faith and it looks like he's going to fall off the cliff...only there IS a bridge there. It's just hidden. It's the same here. It FEELS like you are going to take that big step into Plan B, and you are going to plunge, but YOU WON'T! You won't step out into nothingness and fall--there will be something there under your feet to catch you. You just don't see it. Not only that, but you will not be alone!
Eph, do it. Plan B tomorrow morning. I will be online ALL DAY just for you. I'll leave my PC on MB in the background, and you can email any one of the Killer Bees... Tomorrow. Thursday, July 5th.
My dear friend. What a day! The afternoon was great and then your evening had to turn to crap. I am so sorry!!! My heart is breaking for you right now. You never know what God has in store for us. We have to just hold on to that faith, but you can not live like this anymore. You have to protect yourself and your kids. She knows where you live if she ever comes to her senses and wants to return. Then she will have to do all the work to win you back. You have to give her to God and move forward with your life. I think you've fought a good fight my friend.
I believe God did not want you to catch up to them last night. Like you said, it would not have been pretty. You know and you have credible witnesses.
Stand firm my friend. This is hard for me to say because I am teetering on that ledge of my 1st jump myself, afraid to take the leap. To quote a "local celebrity" (I'll tell you the story later) "leap and the net will appear". (of course this is paraphrased, don't have the exact quote in front of me). God will provide that net! He knows you've tried. You are smart enough to think logically. You are not making any rash choices. You are protecting yourself and those 2 precious kids!
I am constantly praying for you and praying that the Holy Spirit will guide you and help you during this tragic time. We all have to come out of this better people and much wiser and strong!
Do these words mean anything to you??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> "So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." Hold onto them!
I must leave for now, but you know where to find me.
Time to do it, my man! You have to shut this down before you explode.
One note...I wouldnt play games with her. Asking "so how was your 4th" isnt going to get you the response you want. And, once she knows that you saw her, you will just look like you are into playing games.
She is your wife. You can ask her any question you want. So, you should tell her "I saw you with that bald guy yesterday at the fireworks. The kids and I were there when you walked by."
Look, she is a married woman with kids. And instead of being with her kids (and husband) enjoying the 4th, she chose to walk around like some 18 year old in heat with her new "boyfriend." Do not lend credibility to her actions. Call it what it is.
One thing I did with my wife was to always paint her actions in the ugly, disgusting way it was. I didnt ASK her anything. I told her the truth. "I saw you with bald guy at the fireworks. It amazes me that you would choose to walk around with someone like that, instead of being with your family."
Anyway, time for Plan B Eph. Time for bald guy or whomever else to meet ALL of her needs. And time for you to get some well deserved rest!
you are more than welcome my friend...as you can see we are ALL going to be standing beside you...you know that you can call me, write me, or yahoo me any time that you need too...
like I said you are going to be just fine...this is protection for you and the kids...
Just dropped the kids off at her place - Didn't say anything to WW except to confirm that I will be at the Dr. appt for DS6 at 11am.
Orchid, CJ, Kiliki, Mortarman, Rin: Thanks.
I asked the question about what the odds were of me seeing her last night. I forget - God doesn't play odds, his timing is perfect.
So one question - I had planned to put together a 3-ring binder with monthly calendars for planning purposes, and ways to make notes from Dr. visits, any medications and their directions, and lists of things taken from house to house (to eliminate stupid arguments about things like blankets). Is this something that the intermediary should handle rather than it being a communication between WW and I?
I just updated and switched the first two paragraphs of my PBL. I already had ion mind to do that - it's not being driven from last night's events.
You are my first love, my only love. I remember all the first things I experienced with you – our first date, our first kiss, our first road trip, our first overnight, our first touch, our first time. Through so many difficult times I held you and wiped away the tears as you cried on my shoulders. You always sought the safety, security, and warmth of my arms and expressed your gratitude for always being there for you and carrying you when necessary. I stood by you and held your hand through three of the most beautiful times of my life – our wedding and the births of our two children.
I love you with all my heart despite everything that has happened before and during our marriage. To this day I remain emotionally and physically attracted to you. I still believe that God has a plan for us, that he gave us DS6 and DD3 for reason, and that He expects us to fulfill that.
Great idea Eph! Have a binder that goes with the kids. Each of you would write in it, writing down specifics of the childrens' day that is important that the other parent know. Adding in school information as well as completed school work is a great way to do this.
When she picks up the kids, the notebook full of stuff goes with them. When they come back, it comes back.
It is a great idea and shows that you are taking the initiative towards keeping your wife in the childrens' lives. Contrasting that with her doing her own thing with bald guy on the 4th should go over well for you in court...and should seal her fate with the judge.
The OBL is fine. It will be better once she has it in her hands and you have gone dark. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!
You are running this war now. Everything from now on will be on your terms, at your pace. But, I believe you are losing the initiative in this fight. You have the perfect time now. But it wont last.
I want to go for sole legal custody because she has not demonstrated any ability to work together on decisions regarding the kids. This would eliminate CS from me and SHE would be paying me some small amount that I'd rather waive.
I have so been waiting on you to see this!!!!! This woman does not deserve standard "mother's rights" and should only be allowed visitation with the children. She is morally bankrupt and her decision making and selfishness is out of this world wrong. DO NOT WAIVE ANYTHING even if it's ordered to be $10 per month. This isn't about the money it's about being responsible for your decisions and life having consequences. Also, if it's $10 per month and she doesn't ever pay it there is not a court in the country that would ever take a future modification of custody request seriously.
Yes, that was the plan to have it go with the kids. I just did not want that to be contrary to what I state in the PBL about no contact. Maybe add a statement about it in the PBL so there is no confusion?
Yeah...that would be in the section about communication. You say that in the case of blood or fire, you can call. Otherwise, all communications will be via the notebook, or with intermediary or email. Whatever route you want her to go thru.
OK, I have an appt with SH Monday morning. I am thinking tie up all loose ends, let attorney and GAL know what's up and give them all my documentation, meet with SH, go to plan B.
SH will be the commander of the battle. You will be the captain, implementing SH's battle plan. Your attorney and GAL will be the guys on the ground doing the fighting and taking the hits.
Eph--as you can see, we really are all here. Today is the day!! Carpe diem!!!
h&p - sorry I completely missed your post, and with further reflection I agree with your thoughts.
Rin - agree on the open house. Now that I am a plumber of the most basic sort I need to get moving on that.
OK, just tightening up the PBL - not trying for perfection just trying to not have any gaps. Added this info regarding communications:
Until such time as you are willing to meet these conditions, please do not call me, send me e-mails, or leave voice messages unless there is a life or death emergency regarding our children. I have arranged for any direct communications to go through our friends L&R at XXXX. Also, we will use the notebook I have created to communicate important dates for the kids, details of doctor’s appointments and any necessary medications, lists of items they may take from home to your house and vice versa, and school work related information. We can add any other information that may be in the kids best interests, but please don’t use this notebook to communicate anything but topics relevant to the kids.
Looks good Eph. As others have said above...this is still a war. And in the initial parts of that war, you took some tremendous hits. But you werent destroyed!!
You regained your footing and have done all of the prep work for what you need to do now. While in Plan A, you were still on the defensive...but were taking it back to the "enemy." Destabilizing the enemy's attack.
Now, you are prepared. Using the military analogy used above...the Lord is your commanding general. He has this whole thing in his sights, and he ultimately knows what is best. Your battlefield commander is as was stated above...Steve Harley. But YOU are the officer in charge...you are where the rubber meets the road. You will need to stick to the plans given to you and trust that those around you have your back. Many times, it will look like the plan is failing.
Trust the plan. Trust the MB principles. Ultimately, trust the Lord! If the plan needs changing, you will be so advised. But until then...it is for you to carry on with the mission.
After the initial hel! of Plan B, you will settle in and begin to enjoy it. Enjoy the fact that you are no longer on the defensive. You no longer have to take anything from your wife. You will have quiet. And in that quiet, the Lord will guide you.
You have followed orders well, up to now. Please see this mission thru. Many in Plan B have a bunch of setbacks because they give in...or are hurt and cant stay dark. Remember, you are "addicted" to your wife, just as she may be addicted to an OM. Which means, once you go dark, you will go thru withdrawal. It will suck! I'm not goingto lie to you.
We will help you with that. By staying busy, you will get thru that period. Your kids will keep you busy. The house sitch will keep you busy. And if you need other things to do to keep you busy, we will help you find those too.
Your wife has no clue what she is doing. She has no plan. She is just blowing in the wind. You have your plans...and your orders. This will be THE hardest thing you do in your life, I guarantee it! But once you come thru it, you will be battle hardened. And a different man.
So, Charlie Mike (that is short in military terms for "Carry on with the Mission.").
That's a good way to reclaim that day for YOU, Eph. Not to say that you are independent of the commitments you made, but rather that you are independent of the harmful choices she is making to her family.
So today is the day.
What is the Plan B battle plan for today? Are you mailing the Plan B letter today? That would be one step in the direction! What ONE THING are you doing today?
I was thinking of giving it to her tomorrow when I drop the kids off as I won't see her all weekend. Gives me tonight to get the notebook together and that is a critical piece of this puzzle.
I'd still like to give my lawyer and the GAL a heads up beforehand. I think that might reflect poorly on me to not do that, especially since I just had this conversation with my lawyer last week.
I had bought one of those wherify phones to use it's GPS functions last year and I can give that to the kids to talk to me with. Then there is no need for them to use her phone.
So I guess I have done several things today:
Tighten up PBL Work out communication issues and details (notebook, and phone) Have intermediaries on standby
Good job my friend! Hang tough. Everyone's on your side.
Go find that happy place. It's time to start helping yourself. Stop worrying about her. She'll either come around or you'll be better off without her.
Now if I could just get some of your strength to get in deep with my Plan A.
As you know, you're in my constant prayers and I'm here also to support you when you need it! Remember that leg!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Have a good evening getting everything together. Get your independence back! I think that's perfect!
You are getting the kids' notebook finalized. You have a phone for the kids to use to call you--no need to answer calls from her cell! You have tightened up the PBL. You have put intermediaries on notice.
I suggest that you inform attorney and GAL by email or phone message either today or tomorrow morning, and plan on handing over that PBL tomorrow when you drop them off. That is an excellent strategy and will give you the whole weekend to go through whatever may come to pass. If you have withdrawal, you will have us around to support you through it. If she tries to force you to communicate, you will not be trying to deal with that at work.
Good job, Eph. Now, follow through. You can do it!! This is it!!!
I wish I felt like I have made progress. On the surface it feel like all hope is lost. I am just glad to know that plan B is part of the overall plan, and that many have had success with it.
I don't know if I can sleep tonight thinking about how tomorrow will go.
It is like one of your kids standing on the side of the pool, as you sit in the water telling them "jump...I'll catch you." And they sit on the side of the pool, scared.
The issue with them is do they trust you more than they fear getting hurt? If they trust you, they will jump despite their fear.
Same goes for you and the Lord. He is asking you to trust Him...to jump, and He will catch you. If you dont trust Him, you wont jump. If you do, then you will. It really is that simple.
I want you to remember that your wife will try to break your Plan B. She will get angry. She will call a thousand times. She will show up at the house and demand you talk to her. She will threaten court action. And a whole lot more. Eventually, she will try to negotiate you out of NC. Dont you fall for any of it!!
In this war, you have now taken the initiative. The battle is now dictated by you. You decide when, where and how this fight will continue. From this point on, you are fighting from the high ground...from a position of strength.
That PBL is a surrender letter. It is you saying:
Quote
"I gave you every opportunity to lay down your arms and come back...and we could have negotiated our reconciliation. But you wouldn't do that. You refused my attempts to negotiate with you.
Well, your time is up. From this moment on, there will be no negotiations. Lines of communication are being severed. Until you surrender, I do not care what you want or what you need. I now protect this family. I have drawn the line in the sand. No more! You will not push me any further. If there is any chance of reconciliation from this moment on, it will be you surrendering unconditionally. Not to me...but to the Lord.
I have fought this battle long and hard for you. But I have reached the point where I know that I can no longer reach you. You are in His hands now. Your battle from now on will be with Him...not with me. Good luck trying to win that battle!
I am the husband and father for this family. I am the leader. As such, I am making the decision today that no one, including my own wife, is going to damage this family again as you have. No one will ever again seek their own prideful wants at the expense of those in this family. You have chosen to leave this family. So be it.
If a stranger had caused half of the damage that you have to this family, I would have destroyed him/her by now. But the damage in this case was caused from within. Friendly fire. A traitor.
So, as you take so many steps away...there will be only one step back. And that step is unconditional surrender. That step back is bending your knee to the Lord and stating 'Your will, Lord.' When you can do that, then you will be welcome back with open arms...with grace.
But know that until that day comes...I will remain vigilant. I will stand."
One more thing, Eph. Most of my time on MB, I had a signature line that said "In His arms." And I was so glad to be there during all of this. He carried me so far...and is the ONLY reason I am where I am today. He is the ONLY reason I had the strength to endure for so long.
But, if you noticed my sig line now, I changed it right after court to "Standing in His Presence." I knew I had reached the point where He no longer wnated me to remain in His arms. He wanted me to stand. Not on my own...but alongside Him. I was no longer going to be a spectator to all of this. I was now a combatant. I would stand next to the Lord, take up my sword and fight along side Him. Of course, He doesnt NEED my help. But He wants it! He wants me to join Him, to trust Him.
Mortarman I sincerely appreciate you standing by me during this whole thing. You have been there with me from the beginning and I thank you for that. Gos has also held me up with his righteous right hand through all this.
OK, so a small delay today. I could not get in contact with my intermediary yesterday so no PBL delivered this morning; however I am still moving forward
I have the notebook ready. I have the kid's phone ready. I e-mailed SH with some info and my PBL for us to talk through on Monday. I will inform my attorney and GAL of the plans today
Is it worth confronting WW about seeing her Wednesday? There has not been a good time to do this face to face because the kids are all over me during the exchanges and I don't want to discuss this in front of them. I was thinking of just TMing her, this way it's documented.
On confronting her...actually, what happened Wednesday could be the catalyst for Plan B. So, maybe you confront her concerning that...and then hand her the pBL and walk away. Dont ask questions...just make statements. Something like:
Eph: "Wife, you know...I have tried hard here to keep our family together. I have shown you love even during these trying times for me and the kids. I have hoped, and still hope, that the Lord will lead you back into His will. But, after what happened Wednesday, things cannot continue the way they have been..."
Mrs. Eph: as she interrupts "What happened Wednesday?"
Eph: "Look, this is not a discussion. Please do not interrupt me. On Wednesday, at the fireworks, you walked right amongst our family with bald guy. Everyone, including our friends, saw the two of you there...and it created a bad situation for all. I am glad our children did not see that, as this is hard enough on them..."
Mrs Eph: interrupting again "Well, there is nothing wrong with me being with someone. We are separated and will be divorced soon."
Eph: "Again, I asked you not to interrupt. I need to say what I need to here. There is everything wrong with what you are doing...and what you did Wednesday. Whether separated or not, we are married. It is wrong...and our children will grow up learning that such actions are wrong and against God's will."
Mrs. Eph: "Leave them out of this!!!"
Eph: "I wish I could...but unfortunately, what you are doing to this family directly effects them. But...I dont want to get side tracked here. I came to tell you that I do still love you and all of us in this family wish you would return home. God does also. But, because of what happened Wednesday, added to the fact that this situation continue to hurts me more than any person should have to stand...I have decided to protect myself, my love for you and this family and withdraw from any direct relations with you. I have a letter here that outlines how we will get information to each other concerning the kids. It is specific. In the case of an emergency, we both of course, can call each other immediately. Non-emergency, kid-related stuff will be exchanged as outlined in the letter. I have included a notebook we can pass between us to keep each other informed of the kids' information and what is going on with them,
Mrs. Eph: "You cant tell me what to do. I can talk to you if I want. We need to communicate for the sake of the kids."
Eph: "We do need to communicate concerning kid-related information. And that communication can come in any form. In order to protect myself and protect my love for you, I have limited which forms of communication I will be able to accept."
Mrs. Eph: "You cant do that! I will get my lawyer to have the judge order you..."
Eph: "Honey, do what you think you need to do. I did not come here to argue with you, nor to hurt you. I have come here in order to let you know that I can no longer live with the hurt and disrespect that you continue to give me. I am your husband, and the father or your children, and I deserve better. Here is the letter, and the notebook. I trust that you will at least respect me enough that you will not contact me with anything other than kid-related information. I love you...but I have to go now."
And then, you walk away.
She will chase after you. Or, she will test you later. Or she will call her attorney. But YOU shut down everything. You go dark.
So, I like the idea of a confrontation. Remember, no anger. No calling names like "ho." No arguing!!!!! You present what you want to say, hand her the stuff, walk away and go dark.
DD3 becomes DD4 on 7/12 and WW is having a party on 7/19.
She planned it all (no big deal) but asked me to cover the expenses of the pizza. The place for the party is not cheap so of course I am wondering where she is getting the money from. At any rate - of course it ticks me off that she just assumed I would pay for the pizza.
Besides that, I have to now consider how plan B affects this. What's the best way to pull this off?
Does your daughter know about the event? were you supposed to attend? If both answers are "yes," then you will probably need to attend. But that doesnt mean you need to talk to your wife. Is this event attended by a lot of others, or was it just going to be just the family? If just the family, then I would do as Strvin said above and send the money...and do your own family birthday party later (or before!).
So, depends on a lot of stuff. But this is NOT a reason to delay your Plan B!!
Yes, DD knows about it and WW gave me an invitation. As a side note, the invitation was to "Daddy and Bubby" signifying to me that we live at the same house. Could be a slip on her part, but whatever.
And yes, there will be other children and parents there.
I'll probably be the one running around with the kids while WW sits to the side. That's how it was when we had DS's party there two years ago.
Okay. So, no contact with your wife then. She will try to talk to you. You just turn and walk away. If it is required that you need to answer her about something, make it a one word answer. Such as "Did you pay for the pizza?" Answer: "Yes." And then walk away.
When the event is over, leave immediately. If the kids are to be with you when you leave, have their stuff ready before you tell them it is time to go. If they are to leave with your wife, then give them a hug and kiss, say you will talk to them later...and walk out.
Hopefully, this is the only planned thing you have and will be the only time you will have to do this. So, stay quiet. Concentrate on the kids and others there (strike up conversations with the other parents which will keep you too busy to talk to her).
One of the more "slick" ways that a WS will try to lure you into their web and get needs met when you're in Plan B is exactly as your WW has done. Plan something "for the kids", tell them about it and get them all excited, and THEN--after it's all set up--tell you about it and expect you to pay for their plan.
Under this ONE circumstance I would say pay for the pizzas for DD3/DD4...and perhaps make one statement to WW: "From this point forward, we will be making separate plans for birthdays, holidays, and special days. You plan and pay for YOUR party, and I will plan and pay for MY party. Do not plan something and expect me to pay for it again, because I will no longer be meeting this EN until you are home and we are a family."
THE END
Here's why I suggest that. The list of things you have to pay for "for the kids" will be unending. I am in NO WAY suggesting that you do not provide for your children!! I am suggesting that you provide for them AT YOUR HOME. If she chooses to not be at your home, then she has to figure out how to finance it...ON HER OWN. Her choice! When she says, "Eph, the kids have no school clothes over here that fit them" you stay dark...or respond through the intermediary, "I have adequate clothing to care for them at OUR HOME." When she says, "Eph, the kids need a nice yard at my house and the mower broke" you stay dark..or respond through the intermediary "I have a working mower at OUR HOME."
So begin now to practice saying "no." One of these days she is going to plan a big, Christmas party (or something) and tell the kids all about it and get them all excited...and then say, "You pay for the X and Y and I'll invite you." Your response should be darkness or through the intermediaries: "No thank you. I have my own plans." Your kids are young, and they may be disappointed temporarily, but then just explain to them that they get to have TWO Christmases and they'll be happy again.
Soooooo...your assignment for today is:
1) REACH your intermediaries!! 2) Practice saying "no" to her.
Your mama bee,
CJ
P.S. If you can not reach your intermediaries, I am always available!! Seriously.
Print out some of the posts that Mortarman made, put them where you can easily see them, to help remind you that this IS part of a PLAN, a plan that works. It does in so many ways. The plan is for battle, the plan is for recovery, the plan is for self reflection and growth, the plan is for peace.
Withdrawal is inevitable, and is confusing, as you have suffered so much at the hands of this woman, you would assume you would only feel relief. Relief will come, so wait out the withdrawal. I broke Plan B, always trying to push MY agenda; I believe that it lengthened the whole process.
Also, your intermediaries need to be easily accessible, so you may want to bring someone in who is, unless this is just a one time problem.
I assume you have contacted your intermediaries by now....right? Just checking up on you. Just continuing to push the baby bird out of the nest. Where do we stand on your Plan B, Eph??
Your silence has been deafening. How's it going? If you don't want to post here in public, you know where to reach me, right? And my offer to intermediary still stands if you need it too.
I just spent the weekend having fun. No stress of kids. Hung out with friends (I'm the battleship and skipbo king).
Spent today getting the notebook in order. I have a monthly calendar sheet until the end of the year showing visitation weekends, Dr. visits that I know of, DD's party, and a trip I have planned with the kids. I have a sheet for details on doctor visits. I have a sheet for medications. I have a sheet for toys taken from home to her house ane vice versa. I have a sheet where she is to write in expenses that I will have to reimburse her for (tomorrow I will take her name off of the joint account).
I talked with my intermediaries tonight - they wanted to be clearer on what they need to do. I told them that the notebook would handle most communications about the kids, but anything else that she or I need to communicate to one another would be through them; however I don't plan to have much to say at all to her. I told them this was not something I cooked up on my own, that this was the plan recommend my counselor Dr. H. They might be hedging, so I haqve to nail this down ASAP tomorrow or find someone else.
A friend at church introduced me to the Sunday School teacher of the class that she and WW attend at church. She said she was so glad to finally meet me and that she had been praying for our situation. I just said that I appreciated that, that it was about all she could do. Thinking further, I wonder if she really knows what needs to be prayed about. I have am sure that any story that has been told by WW is twisted.
So I am exhausted and dreading tomorrow. I may stay home from work as I can;t see me being able to focus on anything but the impending "shot heard round the world" of plan B.
CJ - you have mail.
I am really hoping for some peace after speaking with SH tomorrow morning.
More details on meeting the SS teacher. She had commented to my friend something like "Is he (me) as bad as she (WW) makes him out to be?"
Friend said - hang on let me go get him so you can meet him.
So like I said, I am sure whatever story WW is telling is twisted.
When I dropped the kids of this morning WW asked me what was wrong. I just waved her off and started walking to my car. She followed me out and asked again. I just told her it was nothing she really wanted to hear about, got in the car, and came home.
Sorry I've been out of town. But I don't have much to add. I'm not a Plan B expert.
The "notebook" you are preparing I hope you have a back up copy. WW may throw it away and refuse to use it. You will need a copy of your hard work as evidence you desparately tried to "co-parent" the children using effective means of communication. Without a copy of the notebook WW can attempt to downplay it as inadequate and nothing more than a calender and some blank paper.
The main thing SH and I discussed was the fact that the "cornerstone" has not been set - meaning that WW has not given any response to the original question of whether she believes the ideal scenario is that she be in love with the father of her children. He said that concept has to be set, otherwise everything else is sorta futile.
He recommended trying to set that one more time before going to plan B, but did say that I was getting good advice here.
Also gave some guidance on how to communicate plan B to my attorney and the GAL. I'll post up that e-mail a little later.
OK, here is the e-mail I am planning to send to my attorney:
Quote
When you and I last spoke I mentioned to you that I was prepared follow the advice of my counselor and move into a period of no contact with my wife. You indicated that you did not think that was a wise idea, but I wanted to take another attempt to explain to you why I feel it is what I need to do.
The counselors I am working with (Dr. Willard F. Harley and his son Steve Harley) are some of the most renown when it comes to dealing with infidelity. So far I have been trying to do my best to show WW that our marriage is worth fighting for and saving. Unfortunately due to her continued lying and such, I have reached a point where the interactions with her are too painful.
(this is stuff SH said today) I am becoming increasingly frustrated that our marriage is going in a direction that I don’t want. I am frustrated that she has unilaterally decided this direction for our family and I feel that our family is being misdirected. I am frustrated because I know that it does not need to be this way and that she can be happy in our marriage. And as we discussed, I am frustrated at her continued inability to co-parent with me and make decisions without consulting with me.
(some stuff from Mortarman in here) His recommendation is to protect what love is left and completely eliminate all direct interactions with her. I have to take my mental and emotional health into consideration, and if I am not able to get away from the situation, then I will most likely damage my legal situation in far worse ways. I am not trying to manipulate her in any way; I am just trying to protect myself.
I have taken all necessary steps to ensure that we communicate as best as possible on issues regarding the kids. I have created a notebook for documenting important dates for the kids, expenses that she may need to be reimbursed for, items that are taken from the children’s home to her home, and medical details including doctor’s visits and medications. I will also keep copies of this information should something happen to it. Of course we can add any additional information as is necessary (ex. school related info). I have acquired a cell phone for the kids so they can communicate with me and not have to use WW’s cell phone. In life or death type emergencies she will be able to contact me directly; otherwise all communications should be directed to and filtered by an intermediary I have made arrangements with. Also until school starts the intermediaries will help facilitate the daily exchanges of the children.
I know you may not like this course of action, but I believe it is what is best for me and my children and so I ask you to defend this to the best of your ability. I also have documentation from another credible source that this is a necessary course of action and will share that with you if you like (thanks hopeandpray)
thoughts and comments? Mr. W this is where you come in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
This is not a "legal" take on it, but I don't think you quite have the right perception there, Eph, so let me see if I can reframe it for you.
By leaving the family and leaving the children, your WW has effectively become an acquaintance to you. Although you two are married on paper, since she is choosing to leave and choosing legal separation, she has the right to know about your life about as much as the mailman does. Yes, she does have the right to know about the kids, but so does their TEACHER, and you would never expect to hear some of the snide comments from the teacher that you regularly hear from your WW.
Therefore, you are not ending contact with you. You are ending her attempt to continue to control your life via hurtful phone calls and interactions. You are placing a healthy boundary around yourself to take back control of your own life and remove yourself from the drama and crisis of an affair. You are going to a place of autonomous peace.
While you are in Plan B, you have a way in place to civilly inform her of events in the children's lives and upcoming decisions: via the notebook, the intermediaries, and the lawyers. In life and death, she can call you directly. But otherwise, you are no longer going to be her puppet. That is healthy.
The way that you communicate it in your email, I can see why your attorney was against it. It sounds like you're cutting her out of your life, when in reality she is losing her place in your life as your confidante and counsel. You will no longer take advice from her or listen to her opinion because SHE CHOSE TO LEAVE YOU. Thus, if it was a civil thing to discuss with the mailman, you might discuss it with her. Does that make sense?
I think if you could somehow indicate that healthy boundary versus "cutting her out of your life" they would understand much better what you are trying to do and why.
I will review the email from a proof-reading point of view, but from a "content" point of view, that's what stands out to me. Also, I think it may be a DJ to say you know she can be happy in your marriage. I BELIEVE she could be if she chose to be...but it is entirely possible that she has some sort of mental illness or defect which results in her choosing what is not best for her!
Anyway, I'll review and get you more comments in the morning.
CJ - thanks for the comments. Yeah, I can see that the framing of this is off.
OK, I had an open door to talk to WW this morning and try to "set the cornerstone again." We talked about an issue concerning DS6 which led directly to this:
Me: Is this what you want (being separated) or do you want the best? Do you believe the best is for us to all be together in a loving marriage. WW: I don't feel like that is possible. Me: This is not a feeling question, it's based on fact. Do you believe that is the best. WW: In a perfect world. Me: So why would you not want the best? WW: I tried for so long. Why didn't you want it? Me: Because I did not know what the best was. I do now and I want it.
She tried to get me off on some tangents, but I brought it back to this:
Me: Do you believe the best is going downtown with someone else to watch fireworks rather than with your family? WW: I could say the same thing for you. Me: I was there with our kids and family friends. WW: I was there with another family also. Me: No.
Me: So what I hear you saying is you know what the best is but you don't want it? WW: I don't think I can be happy. Me: So it's not worth trying for?
also she made some comment that I can't remember, but my reply was "You don't want to be with someone who stands up for his family?" To which she replied "I don't see it that way. I see you trying to take me out."
I did not get and explanation for this because at this time the kids were getting unruly so I cut the conversation short and said we could talk later.
Then when I got to work I sent her this e-mail:
Quote
Since we both know what the best is, we should try to reach that. We should not cheat ourselves or our kids from having the best.
Would you consider going to this with me so that we can see how we can reach the best?
Wow, Eph, good job on sticking to the point. I had a very similar conversation with WH, prior to MB, but it wasn't nearly as structured. I think you did well to point out that she was not answering your question when you posed this
Quote
Me: Is this what you want (being separated) or do you want the best? Do you believe the best is for us to all be together in a loving marriage. WW: I don't feel like that is possible. Me: This is not a feeling question, it's based on fact. Do you believe that is the best. WW: In a perfect world. Me: So why would you not want the best?
It was always so hard to keep a conversation on track when PWC was wayward. He would do the same things, like saying 'in a perfect world', or 'i don't feel that is possible--anymore'. I think reaching out like this is a very good thing to do before going dark. You have made it clear that you want the BEST, and will do what it takes to get the best.
It sounds like you're doing really well. You haven't delivered the Plan B letter yet, have you?
I think that I would go into any additional conversation expecting rejection and expecting that you will have to go to Plan B. Try to protect yourself from the disappointment. If it doesn't go that way, great!
I heard the same kinds of 'in a perfect world' and 'I just don't think it's possible' stuff, too.
no, PBL is is not delivered yet but it's probably coming after any further attempts of discussions per SH's direction.
I just TMed her again asking if she got my message from last night. She replied asking if I wanted to talk tonight after I get the kids in bed. I replied - Yes, looking forward to it.
No expectations at all - that is why I was surprised she even TMed me to begin with. But I also know it could be the last time we talk.
First, I want you to do me a favor. Please do not put too much hype and pressure on this talk tonight. I guarantee it will not be the last time you talk to her--just the last time you let her control you via hurtful words and actions. Because of the children, you will speak with her again at some point--the difference will be that you will be disentangled from her emotionally and it will be like speaking to the mailman.
Second, please review the link in my signature about "When to end Plan B". The reason I am having you review this is that my exH kept me "on the line" while he continued his A several times by saying, "I'm making progress. Doesn't that count? Do I have to be perfect?" or "I am willing to TRY" and then doing nothing. I want you to have a crystal clear view of what it will look like if your WW is truly serious.
Finally, I believe you have a little bit of a special situation here, Eph, because of your WW's mental illness. Remember that a LOT of her perceptions are skewed from that. Thus, in my PERSONAL opinion, not only would WW have to show the "surrender" that Mortarman talks about...I think she would also have to show sincere effort toward admitting her issues and working with her mental illness. Eph, generally speaking, I think you take a lot of her "blame" and whatnot when in reality she is speaking from a mentally ill view of the world and of relationships. I would say that if she was regularly taking her prescribed medication, working closely with a doc and psychiatrist, and going to regular therapy or bipolar group--that would be appropriate indication that she's seriously working on her own illness. If not, part OF the illness is disruption of relationships, rage in mania, and inappropriate sexuality in mania. If she's not dealing with those things, it will not be a recovery.
Soooooo...keep those things in mind, dear brother.
Made small talk at first, then she asked about the e-mail I sent on the MB Weekend - what was it, what happens, etc
So many times she tried to get off on a tangent, talking about the past, things I did or didn't do. I tried so hard every time to get back on target.
Several times she would just be going on and on and I would just say - "WW, do you want to do this or not" ("this" being attend the MB weekend) and she would be quiet. Then more venom.
She threw out that before she would go she wanted to "deal or settle the issues that are open before we were to go." in order to "take the stress, the pressure, the whatever off of everything and not be sitting there wondering 25 different things at one instead of this one issue that whoever is telling you about." The issues being "money, stuff, kids, whatever. I just asked what the relevance was to attending the MB weekend and said there was an easy way to end it.
I repeated so many times "If you know what the best is why would you not want it?"
It ended like this:
Me: Do you want to do this or not? WW: I don't know, I am not sure that I know that is the best. Me: I am sorry that you feel that way. WW: Well I am sorry that you feel the way that you feel. Me: I'm not. WW: Well I'm not either.
oh, when I said "My lawyer deals with the divorce issues and I deal with fixing the marriage issues" she called it a "manipulation thing." I said "where is the manipulation there?" she backtracked with "I don't know, I don't know if that is the right word or not, I guess I just um, ahh, I don't know, you know, kinda seems like an easy way out, a weenie way out" and that I was told this (the divorce) might be coming and I chose to ignore all this time and I was just throwing it off to somebody else instead of doing myself.
I just said "Why would I do something I don't want to do." and I would not "engage willingly in something I don't want to do."
This was good:
WW: I told you the day was coming (when she would give up) and for whatever reason you chose not to believe me, whether it was because you could have cared less, you thought "Ahh, no way in the world she could ever leave, no way she will leave." I told you it was coming and you chose to take it as "Oh she just keeps threatening me." Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me then. WW: Meaning? Me: I seem to recall both of us saying "for better or worse, until death" and I am breathing last time I checked. WW: yeah, well I was close to not breathing before i left last time I checked. I had to make a choice Me: None of that was my fault. WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows? Me: I did not put a gun to your head and make you do the things you did (referring to her eating disorder methods) WW: No but you certainly helped.
She sounds very foggy. I wouldn't think that she would be willing to do a phone consultation, but she agrees to it then go for it. I agree not to push it any more.
Plan B (follow Steve's advice on when to start it) will be a relief for you. It won't be easy, but it will be easier than what you're doing now. Everyone I know talks about how much better I seem not than I did even a few months ago.
I think Steve guided you to the perfect spot. Considering where she is at...there is no way she was going to say "yes" right off the bat to going to the Weekend. It just doesnt happen that way, unfortunately.
I think the offer of a session with Steve was also good. I did the same with my wife, and she reluctantly said yes. During the session, she brought up a bunch of bile...but Steve kept redirecting her back to the question "What is the ideal scenario for you, your kids, your family?"
Now, did she take that and run home then? Nope. But the seed was planted! When I talked some more with my wife this Spring, some things came out in the discussion. One thing she has said over and over was that once I had pulled away (into Plan B), all she could think of over and over was that if Jesus showed up today, she thought He would ask "Where is your husband...your kids...your family?" And she would have no good answer. Which comes back to that seed you just planted...the ideal of the the family together.
Steve is the master, so follow his instructions! What I see is that you will need to see if she will go for that session with Steve. If she wont, then it is off to Plan B. If she does, then things will need to be evaulated by Steve and he will let you know if Plan A needs to go on a little bit longer...or you head to Plan B.
If you do go to Plan B, I would include a line about "The Ideal." That should be the main theme. That you are pulling away...but still desire the Ideal.
On the things she said...much of it was fog babble. But I have found that many times, you can glean out little gems out of the junk. And you were correct to point out that her adultery and moving out was entirely her doing. But, what I hear in her words is that the truth of the matter was that the environment the marriage was in was at least partly your fault. And she would be correct.
Which is why the other side of what you said...besides that her adultery was her doing...is that you agree with her that you had contributed to the environment to where your marriage was not what it should have been. But, that you now have realized that and understand what the Ideal is. That what the Weekend teaches is how successful marriages work, what your responsibilities are...and how to recover from the pain of the past.
She says she wants to deal with past issues first. That isnt possible! As a matter of fact, Dr. Harley states that going over past hurts and problems only causes more problems. both of your love banks are drained. Going over this stuff will only drain them more! What is needed is to first build up those love banks, so that you can take some hits. And then, if there are issues to still deal with, you can survive that. But interestingly enough, if you go thru the process of building up your love banks using the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair, both of you will find that most of those problems have moved into the background in the rearview mirror. And will no longer even be relevent.
Anyway, see what your wife says about counseling with Steve. You might even want to send her a printout of the MB Weekend info (just copy and paste) so she will understand what it is all about. Then, see what her response is.
My prediction is that she will balk at all of it, at least for now. She MIGHT go for the one session with Steve...but she most likely wont come out of that willing to do much. And considering where your love bank is...it will be time for Plan B.
Now, with this all laid in front of her, and then you pulling back...she will understand two things. First, that you still value your marriage (interestingly enough, she does too...which is why she engaged you in that conversation...it is why she is beginning to see the idoicy of her words and actions. She wont admit it yet, though). And second, that you have regained your footing and are now The Man.
This is EXTREMELY important! Women do not have affairs on husnabds that they respect! Your wife does not respect you right now. But, she is beginning to. When she sees your resolve not to just quit, you have earned respect. When she sees you addressing the issues in the marriage and taking responsibility, you earn respect. When she sees you being Dad and taking responsibility for the family, you earn respect.
And once you go to Plan B, you will also earn respect because you will show her that you are man enough to stand up to abuse.
So, see what her position is. Maybe even check back in with Steve. Things look good (although I dont want you to have false hopes). She is acting like the typical WW at this stage. The fog is clearing a little...just enough for her to start questioning everything. So, right now, she is following the WS Script word for word!
She initiated another conversation this morning, and yes she keeps bringing up my failures and only mentioning in passing hers. Interestingly, in both conversations she has made no mention to anything with her affair (I even made a statement last night about a marriage not being made of three people)
I just kept repeating that I did not put us on this road to D, maybe the road we were on was not the best because I did not fully know how to get to the best, but it was not a road to D.
Today is DD's birthday - she is 4 now. I asked her if she wanted to go eat somewhere special tonight - her response was McDonald's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And she asked WW if she wanted to go with us tonight (I had already told DD it was OK if she asked becuase I was not going to do it after being rejected so many times).
Maybe if she goes it will give me the opportunity for one last attempt to get her to talk to Steve.
Same with me E. I'm following your thread, but being a newbie and in the same sitch, I have no words of wisdom to offer. Just know that I'm cheering for you.
Just watching your thread and seeing some similar points. I spoke to Steve a few weeks back and he asked that my wife speak to him, but she refused. He made the same points about 'in a best scenario your WW being in love with the husband of her children' and the possibility to have a great marriage. I kept asking my WW, but it just seemed to push her away. I think you have managed to plant the seed in her mind as I did with my WW, but I wouldn't expect her to respond so soon. I think she knows your right which is why she keeps changing the subject of conversation or going off in a tangent.
Maybe you need to hit Plan B just to push her along a bit.
I am due in Florida for a family holiday at the same time they have the MB weekend and I'd love to be there. I just have to keep hoping it will happen.
This is only my opinion, and I hope I haven't offended you. I'll keep praying for you as I do for myself.
Thanks kg and h&f. I appreciate you thinking of me and checking in.
WW did decide to go eat with us tonight so I pulled some plan A on her as best I could. We had dinner, the kids played on the playset, I went in the playset with them and came down the slide two or three times while she sat at the table, asked if she wanted an apple pie (I knew she would, they are her fav). We just had a nice time, no pressure, no stress, no talks of anything really.
She thanked me for dinner afterwards and I thanked her for coming with us.
Well I pretty much focused on the kids this weekend and having fun with them. I think I wore them slap out. Saturday was the best. They played over at the neighbors Saturday morning while I did the yard work, then we went to a birthday pool party in the afternoon, then had more friends and kids over in the evening to hang out and play.
Interesting thing with the neighbor - it's the neighbor whose DD my WW keeps. She asked me how I was doing since she has "heard so much form the other side." I was careful in what I said, not revealing too much. Then she made an interesting comment. She said she was not going to tell WW that she had talked to me because WW would let that interfere with their friendship. I told her she was probably right (I later thought I should say that that was WW's issue, not hers, so she should feel free to talk to whoever she likes).
I also told her that I was unhappy with how WW handled informing her about not keeping her DD back in December when WW left the house. She said said that she had not gotten over that either. If I was her I would not trust WW to keep my child.
So anyway, I was gonna follow up on a few things with WW:
First, just to see where her thoughts are, I sent her a TM asking her to make a list og the "issues" she wants resolved before she would consider attending the MB weekend. I just want to see what that looks like, but I fully expect that the top item is for her to have custody of the kids.
Second, I'll make the last attempt to get her to talk to Steve. I mentioned to him that the last times I asked her to talk to him, she came back with wanting a favor of her own, i.e. getting custody of the kids. He said if she says that again to tell her that I would be doing her one of the biggest favors I could do as a husband by trying to save our marriage and our family, that this is something better than she could get anywhere else.
So let's see what God has in store for me tomorrow (actually it's today now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).
WW: I told you the day was coming (when she would give up) and for whatever reason you chose not to believe me, whether it was because you could have cared less, you thought "Ahh, no way in the world she could ever leave, no way she will leave." I told you it was coming and you chose to take it as "Oh she just keeps threatening me." Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me then. WW: Meaning? Me: I seem to recall both of us saying "for better or worse, until death" and I am breathing last time I checked. WW: yeah, well I was close to not breathing before i left last time I checked. I had to make a choice Me: None of that was my fault. WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows? Me: I did not put a gun to your head and make you do the things you did (referring to her eating disorder methods) WW: No but you certainly helped.
Interesting exchange, Eph.
Everything in that exchange seemed to be focused on "self." From both of you. Battle lines have been drawn and the "I'm right, you're wrong" entrenchment tool seems to be in full use.
Where does God "fit into" this "battle?"
"Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me then."
"Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me and to God then."
"WW: yeah, well I was close to not breathing before i left last time I checked. I had to make a choice"
We all have to choose FOR or AGAINST God. I have seen where I chose poorly in my God given role as your husband and have committed to God to BE the husband that He wants me to be, hopefully with you if that is His will, but alone without you if you don't want God as the center of our marriage.
"WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows?"
Not necessarily, since I was being so blind at the time. A brief separation to focus on God first would possibly have been in order, but not choosing adultery, abandonment, or divorce as the "answer." That choice was yours and is something you will have to talk to God about.
What reason does SHE have for counseling of any type, a weekend or by phone? She is viewing this as she has to unconditionally surrender. That seems to be what is behind her wanting to talk about "other issues" first.
How many of these "issues" are first and foremost issues that each of you have with God? How many of these issues "exist" because of a personal unwillingness to submit to God and HIS leadership of the marriage? It's often easy to think "I've done this much and that much, so I'm okay." That's sort of like the "young rich ruler" in his exchange with Jesus who wanted to know what, if anything, he needed to do MORE than what he had been doing in his own power. He didn't like the answer he received because it required a change in HEART and God was not truly "first" in his life, nor would he "allow" God to be. Just think of all that he would have to "give up" compared to what he would "gain" from God.
"WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows?"
I can't help wondering what Jesus' response would be to this question. "MY vows" to WHOM? "Doesn't what I want supercede what YOU want from me, Father?"
"Peter, this day you WILL deny me three times." "No way Lord!" "Way, Peter."
Eph, where is God in all of these conversations? Whose will are each of you "supposed to" be seeking first, no matter what you might be legitimately feeling or emotionally responding to?
For believers, isn't the "real issue," "Choose ye THIS day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we WILL serve the Lord." Was Christ's death for you "not enough?"
What if Jesus had not been willing to "stay and die" for HIS bride? Was it "easy?" "Easy" was never the point nor the focus of Jesus.
"Am I my brother's keeper?" I don't know how you or your wife might answer that question. I wonder what your children might answer on behalf of those who are SUPPOSED to be their keepers in safety, family, love, faith in God, willingness to "die" to keep them from harm, especially harm that either parent can inflict on them when they put "self" and "me" ahead of "thee."
Who "speaks for God" to both of you in these "battle negotiations?" Or isn't God a PART of the covenant vows you both willingly took?
Eph, you can "lead a horse to water," but only God can touch and change the heart of someone so that THEY will WANT to try to drink. They may be afraid the water is poisoned against them, but they will drink if they know that God has the power to render even poison harmless to them. They will NOT "surely die." God is the SOURCE of living water, not death.
Or has God been killed and it's "just the two of you now?"
FH - you make some great points. This one especially:
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Everything in that exchange seemed to be focused on "self." From both of you. Battle lines have been drawn and the "I'm right, you're wrong" entrenchment tool seems to be in full use.
I agree that I have allowed myself to fall into this mode. It's like Rin asked me last night - would I rather be right or would I rather be married? This is an issue I need to deal with myself.
You also asked:
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Where does God "fit into" this "battle?"
I think I have the tendency to think "Well I prayed and asked God for strength, wisdom, whatever - and then I he ad off into "battle" expecting God to show up rather than following Him or bringing Him into the "battle" myself. Again, failure on my part becuase I allow myself to just jump into the fight.
Quote
Or has God been killed and it's "just the two of you now?"
This is definitely NOT what I want.
Well this morning I sure ran into battle again so to speak. I gave her the CS payment today but subtracted out an amount that she spent for vehicle maintenance that I am not required to pay. That set off a whole argument from her that I had agreed to pay it and such. I just had to walk away from it.
Then she called my cell phone and I did not take the call, so she left me a message about ignoring her and to call her whenever I felt like it. So once I got to work and parked I called her back and the war was on. After such a quiet weekend I didn't want to get into that. She mentioned not being able to trust my word again, that I should have communicated to her that I was doing this - to which I replied that I did tell her quite some time back that I expected to be paid back for those maintenance expenses and since she had not done anything about it I just thought this was the easiest way.
I did tell her there would be more changes coming up and one of the first ones was that I would be taking her name of the joint account and that she would need to document and provide receipts for any expenses that she needs reimbursement for. Oh she is pissed at that.
What really gets me is that she has spent all this money on "stuff" and things that she needs to be spending money on are just left to the side or she expects me to pay it. To me, it's as if she does not want to experience the consequences of her decisions and actions.
This should be the kind of crap that plan B gets me out of, and, like Mortarman mentioned above, because I am reaching my own limits I am at risk of jeopardizing my own plan.
Yes, I would rather be married than be right. However, neither do I want to live a life of lies, deceit, and an adultery filled marriage.
This should be the kind of crap that plan B gets me out of, and, like Mortarman mentioned above, because I am reaching my own limits I am at risk of jeopardizing my own plan.
I was JUST going to type this out. I know it's tough, you are hitting up against that wall, and Plan B will get you out of this crap, definitely, especially when done right.
So the pick-up was interesting this afternoon. I expected to encounter a winter storm, but surprisingly WW was chatty; however as mush as I don't want to I suspected ulterior motives.
She asked about switching the Tuesday overnight to Thursday since we have DD's party Thursday. She also wants to swap weekends around so she can get on the same schedule as someone else - of course when I asked her what that was about she just said "something for me." So while I would normally be inclined to help out, becuase I think this is a social type thing I don't really want to help her out at all. I want to tell her "You should just come home and we won't have to worry about this stuff."
Anyway, she then showed me where she was had a rash on her arm from either poison oak/poison ivy and asked if I knew what it looked like. Having encountered it a time or hundred in my life I told her what it looked like and we looked around for it, identifying it in a few places. She asked what she should put on it to help dry iy up and make it stop itching so we talked about that briefly.
She had made the kids a CD with some songs on it. so we were listening to it on the way home and there was a BIG trigger for me. There were several songs from some Disney movies we watched together when we first started dating (Beauty and the Beast, Alladin, The Little Mermaid). Those memories came flooding back - and I can't see how the same would not have happened for her.
I sent her this TM tonight:
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Listening to the CD you made the kids, the disney songs reminded me of the night we watched Beauty and the Beast, Alladin, and the Little Mermaid not long after we started dating. My heart breaks and yearns to spend time with you like that again. Do you remember? I'll never forget that special night together. It is among the top special moments I have spent with you!
Upon further review, I was thinking I would tell WW there needs to be a legitimate reason for why she is wanting to switch the whole weekend schedule from what it is now . I am not interested in switching the kid's schedules so she can improve her social status.
checked in with my attorney today to see if he talked to the GAL yet - nada.
So I e-mailed the GAL catching her up on the latest with the kids and asking if there was anything she needed. I mentioned my concerns about whether a joint custody arrangement was going to work since the "joint" aspect has been lacking. Also mentioned that I needed to discuss the next course of action recommended to me by my counselor (plan B and Steve) and that I was hopeful that it will have more positive results for the kids and me.
What is this change in schedule supposed to be for? If she cant tell you what it is and what it is for...then the answer is "no."
In divorce, you will have a life apart from her. With its own schedules and priorities. And they wont include her! So, she will have to understand that unless she can explain what the problem is and if that problem is legitimate, then you will have to decline and stick with your plans.
Examples: 1. "I need to attend a mandatory work training event on my day, and would like to trade off." Your answer could then be "yes."
2. "I want to go to this social function, as my friends will be there." Answer is "no."
3. "It is new OM's birthday and I want to plan something special for him." Answer (while laughing hysterically) "Are you kidding me?"
You see, in court, if you facilitate LEGITIMATE needs such as work, medical attention, etc, then you will be perceived as trying to co-parent. But, if she walks into court and says:
WW: "He wont work with me. He isnt co-parenting. I tried to change one stupid day with him and he wouldnt even talk about it."
Judge: "Well, what did you need the change in dates for?"
Before I commit to switching the kids schedules around I need more details about why this needs to happen. I will call you tonight to discuss further.
The only thing I am going off of is her comment yesterday about getting on the same schedule as some other woman I presume to be a new friend, so that WW did not have the kids when this other woman was not working. Thus my assumption it is a social thing.
Only thing is she could always make something up that would seem reasonable, like it being work related.
WW: It seemed 2 me u already did yesterday (Implying I already agreed to the switch. What I said was I did not think I had a problem with it but I already knew of some possible conflicts) Me: I thought about it more. I need more info. WW: U still make it impossible 2 believe a word u say. A simple yes cant be believed nor trusted. Me: Just give me the details. It should not be a big deal. WW: Why yes, master
Now, for the future...here is a little piece of advice. When she asks you for ANYTHING...tell her you need to think about it. Or you will consider it and let her know later.
Why do I say this? Because right now, you cannot trust yourself. You get close to her and then her influence upon you makes you want to do things for her. It is only natural.
By ALWAYS saying that you will get back to her, it will allow you time to think it thru and get the right response. And she will know that she cannot bully you.
It also takes off the table the foggy statements like "well, you never do what you say."
So, from now on, just tell her you will think about it. I did that with my wife. And about 60% of the time, she never even came back to find out the answer!!
Never forget, that she will use your healthy, personally responsible replies to her and twist them as a way to justify her behavior as a wayward. Never forget that!!
Second, this is really rather easy. She asked you to do her a FAVOR. It is not something she can demand or require--it is a REQUEST. Her REQUEST should get the exact same amount of consideration as the teacher asking you to move the time of a parent/teacher conference. If it meets your schedule AND YOU FEEL LIKE IT, you can change if you want. If ANYTHING interferes or you literally just don't feel like it, there is no reason why you have to do it. She is asking YOU to break an agreement...not the other way around.
Because right now, you cannot trust yourself. You get close to her and then her influence upon you makes you want to do things for her. It is only natural.
Does plan B come with special issue fog lights? Oh, yeah - I don't have to worry about that anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Well she sent me a TM tonight at about 10:30 that said "U want your info?" I sent her one back saying I was busy cleaning the house since I have a showing tomorrow (first one in several weeks) and that it would have to wait. With these last two smarta$$ comments I just want to tell her to forget it.
I got a reply from the GAL today thanking me for keeping her up to date on the situation with the kids. She has spoken to WW's references and is preparing to speak with mine. She also wants to schedule an in-office appointment ASAP befoe she prepares her report. I think this would be an appropriate time to fill her in on plan B and how I will handle that.
Also spoke with my attorney and he wants me to again fill him in on plan B so I need to clear that up now (gotta go back up to CJ's post above now). He also said he spoke with the GAL himself and it is looking more positive for me. WW is not handling this well at all - I guess she is too busy with other things. She has not been in any contact with the GAL and the GAL does not have WW's new phone number (remember the cell phone incident from April?) Truly wayward in all aspects of thinking.
A second mediation session is being set up towards the end of August.
Anyway, the kids and I had a great time tonight as always with a special activity. It's a real shame that she is not around to experience things with us as a family.
Anyway, the kids and I had a great time tonight as always with a special activity. It's a real shame that she is not around to experience things with us as a family.
Such a loss for her. Such a tragedy for us all.
AMEN to that my friend! Always makes me sad to see families around and dad's being involved (in my case).
Hang in there...God has great things in store for us. We just have to trust his timing! As you know, I'm having a hard time dealing with that at the moment.
Good Morning! How are you today? I hope that you are well!
I wanted to make several points here...
One: WW is in no position to get custody of the kids, plain and simply...as with everything in her life right now, she has not stepped up to the plate and proved that she is willing to own her stuff...no with the kids, not with her mental health, not with her marriage, not with custody of the kids...
Some people do more than others...actions speak louder than words, and her actions are screaming what she can and can not handle...
For example, POWS wants 7/7 custody...it's okay for him to want that, however, his actions says that he can barely handle EOW (every other weekend)...
This is what I see in your case and IMVHO, you have nothing to worry about in this custody issue...
Two: Your family has changed, and yet I see that you still refer to your family including WW...however unfortunate, your family has gotten smaller and you have the right and should take some time to grieve that...probably something that you will find yourself doing in Plan B...
So, that's just a heads up...same thing when a member of the family passes away...an in reality your DW has and all that's left is the WW...
The benefit is that YOU WILL see yourself getting stronger...
Three: I was told that in some weird way I was meeting POWS needs in some way when I would argue with him, or disagree with him...From my POV, it was like proving to him time and time again that "things hasn't changed"...reinforcing his POV...Plan B allows that NOT to occur...
No longer will you be reinforcing HER TRUTH...she will have time to question herself IF she ever decides to examine her life...same thing with POWS...but the thing is that they have to WANT TO WANT IT!
So, for you my dear friend, I would like for you to practice the serenity pray:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things that I can not change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!
God is giving you the opportunity to gain clarity in your life...to step back and examine the NEW needs of your family...the opportunity to accept what he wants for you as his child, to be treated in a manner that he wishs...
Let's use the example of the man on the roof...he prays for God's to save him from the rising water...
Soon a boat comes along, and the people in the baot asks if he wants a ride, he replies No, I'm waiting for me God to save me, soon the boat leaves...
The water is getting higher and another opportunity for the man to leave presents itself, but once again the man says no, he's waiting for God to save him...
Next, the man finds himself on the roof and the water is still rising, soon a helicopter comes along and ask the same thing, and the man responses the same way.
The man drowns soon after! Upon arriving in heaven, the man is VERY angry and asks God why he didn't save him. God replies: What did you want me to do? I sent you three opportunity to save yourself.
I'm sure that I didn't tell that exactly as it should have been by you get the idea...THiS is your opportunity to save yourself...it's a matter of what YOU do with the opportunity that will make the difference not only for you but for your kids!
Have a great day! Stay focused and positive! It's hard to see what God's plan for us is! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I understand what you mean that it's a shame your WW isn't around to experience all the wonderful things that are going on in your family. 6 months after my now XH left us my DD21 got married. It came in the middle of my cancer treatments and her wedding became the time we all realized (the kids and I) that WE had become a family without XH. He was on the outside of our lives by his own choice.
He has missed out on getting to know our DSinlaw23. He has missed out on getting to know our DS15 who has matured into a thoughtful and deep young man. He has missed out on the day-to-day of being with DS19 who is home from college for the summer. But, rather than be too sorry for him, I am enjoying this new family we have created.
I have learned that this verse is very true.
Prov. 14:26 "He who fears the Lord has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be refuge."
Rin - great post and great points. Point 3 was interesting and I agree could be very applicable. BTW, you like my sig? LOL.
johnstwin - that is a good verse. I'll have to add that to my list.
I picked this one up at church tonight. Titus 2:7-8 (NIV) 7In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.
So, typical wayward stuff today. I had to go back to WW's place after church to pick up something that DS left there. When I talked to her before church she said something about being out running errands or something, but I picked up on so many verbal cues that indicated it was the typical thing where the story sounds made up as she goes.
Well when I stopped by her house I called her to tell her I was coming to get it. She said she was home and asked where I was and I told her that I was standing on her front porch. She said she was on the computer, so I told her to open the door to that room and wave at me (I could see the closed door through the window). She would not even do that and asked why I wanted her to. I just said it was no big deal I just thought she could wave at me, but of course I am thinking "You are not even home and you are caught in a lie and want to throw crap back at me becuase of it."
So I then said "Well I got what I came for (in more ways than one), see ya, bye."
Waywards. Sheesh, do they think we were born yesterday? Well based on another thread of stupid things that waywards say it would seem they do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> WRONG!!
Well WW was singing a different tune this morning. She called and left a message in her normal soft tone of voice, among other things thanking me for bringing breakfast to her house along with the kids. This leaves me with no doubts about her location last night.
Anyway, I got the details on why she wants to change the weekend schedule. She is wanting to see a therapist (not sure what for) on Saturdays because she cannot find anyone to keep this kids for her during the week and her visitation weekends do not match up with the availability of the therapist. I just listened and said "I'll think about it and get back to you."
So this is what I think. She can find a day during the week and I will find an alternate child care method for that time.
Seems simple to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Whaddaya think?
If it is true that she is wanting to see a therapist, that is good...and bad. Most therapists are of the type that will help her thru her divorce, help her get over the marriage. That is not what she needs, nor what you need or your family.
Unfotunately, you really dont have a say in which therapist she goes to right now. So, I would say that your idea is as good as any. Just tell her it doesnt work for you on Saturdays...that maybe a week day would be better. Then drop in the offer of SH again, that he would love to talk to her. That he is helping you a lot and it would help him help you. And maybe even help her. Leave that nugget for her.
Unless some changes happen in a very short period of time, I just dont see any other course than Plan B very soon. But until that line is crossed, you will have to continue defending boundaries and putting out your mantra!
Well interestingly enough I know who the therapist is because I just happened to get an insurance statement in the mail that was for WW's visit to her back in May. So I can do some research there to maybe see what her philosophy is.
Agree to throwing SH out there as a possibility, but otherwise I don't think I am gonna switch the weekends when I can find an alternate solution. Even if she does not like it I an show that I made a good faith attempt to help and did not just cast her request aside.
Rin, what are you doing asking deep questions like that? You trying' to make me think while I am at work? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL
Well, last night was interesting, but then again what else is to be expected when dealing with a wayward.
DD's party was a blast. It was at this place that has all these big inflatable play things indoors (Rin, think of the party you did with 5 or 6 of those things).
There were 6 of DD's friends there and their parents, plus WW's mom and brother. I spoke with everyone there on multiple occasions, but I don't think I ever say WW speak to anyone except her mom and brother and the neighbor whose daughter she keeps. As a matter of fact, I saw her spend more time playing with the little girl than even DD. Sad. Anyway, she was friendly with me and I was a little flirty back, pushing her down the slide a few times.
I walked up to her mom and said "Well I am sorry for being rude, I can give you a hug before I get all hot and sweaty from playing with the kids." We talked at length about her new job and how that was all going. I got the feeling her brother was intentionally staying away from me, although I did shake his hand and tell him thanks for coming to the party.
One thing that did get to me (probably as designed) was DD got a gift from "Mommy, bubby, grammy, pappy, uncle C, and big mac." Well big mac is the dog so I guess to her I am lower than the dog. The gift was one of those battery powered power wheels Brbie jeeps. I said aloud "Wow DD, we will have to bring that to our house so you and bubby can race jeeps (he has a John Deer jeep already)."
So after it was over, she asks me if I was gonna swap weekend with her and I said no, that we could do it a different way. She could find a day during the week to meet with the lady and I would find alternate child care on that day. I tell you, it was like a switch was flipped on her. She threw out all kinds of statements - "That's not what the paperwork says." "So am I supposed to work with you if you need to switch things?" "Why can't we work together on this?" Just general angry type statements that I expected. I just replied that I was working with her and that I was being flexible with her.
After I left I sent her this TM:
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Forgot to tell you, you are more than welcome to call Steve Harley anytime, he counsels over the phone. I can give you the number if you want. He would welcome the opportunity to speak with you to understand your thoughts and help me understand them as well.
Talk about hearing crickets <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Glad DD's party was a hit! Nothing unexpected from WW was it?
They are only 'happy' when things go as THEY plan, otherwise it is the angry selfish alien in total battle mode. You gotta get away from it.
YOU did. MAH-VE-LOUS job. You can bet your boots EVERYONE noticed the difference between your conduct and that of WW. Of course she kept to herself. She is, deep down, embarassed and ashamed of her actions even though she won't admit it even to herself right now.
I am standing here in the dark, waiting for you to join us Killer Bees! I promise to hold your hand! See you soon?!?
Well, I'm trying to wrap some things up b/f getting out of here! Take care if I don't talk to you soon! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well I talked to the person who was to be my intermediary and she said she was not entirely comfortable doing that, but whould help in any other way. I told her I understood how she felt about it and thanked her for her help so far.
We also spoke about DD's party and she did confirm that WW did not rally speak to her at all.
Soooo, time to start looking for a new one.
This is my time line for plan B. Next weekend the kids are home and the following week (7/30 - 8/3) I am on vacation and the kids and I will be together all week. Since there would be no planned interactions with WW during that time I thought delivering the PBL when I pick them up Friday would be the best time. Plus we are taking a road trip from 8/1 - 8/3 so that works even better.
I am working on my big, long reply to you--in the midst of it but not quite done--and yet I took a minute to peek over here at your thread. I'm going to be exceedingly blunt with you and apply a fairly major MB 2x4. Every single post you say that you understand it is time to go into Plan B. Every single post, the vets come on and URGE you to get your hind-end into Plan B NOW. And every single post, you come up with some reason why you have to put it off "another week" ... and then it's "next week" ... and then "Friday would be more convenient."
I have repeatedly told you that I would be willing to be your intermediary. So have some others here on the boards, if for some reason you don't want to use me. And yet week after week goes by with some "good reason" why you can't/won't go into Plan B. Your excuses have dried up and frankly, I don't believe you anymore. You have no more "reasonable" reasons. Either go into Plan B tomorrow morning, or I don't really believe you will. You are blowing smoke up our hither regions, and I do not appreciate being treated like that.
If you are going into Plan B--do it NOW...not in "two more weeks" or "five more days." You have had plenty of time to prepare for this, and at this point I challenge you. It is my opinion that you have no intention of doing what you know is best for you or your marriage.
Frankly...bluntly...at this point in time you are doing more HARM and DAMAGE to your marriage than good, and I think you need a calling out. YOU are allowing the affair to continue, pure and simple, and you know how to help yourself, your WW and your children--yet you won't do it. You are allowing your WW to aim her anger at you, continuing to refuse to protect your own heart, and not being a strong, loving husband by letting your WW face the consequences of her choices...so that rather than growing and maturing, she blames you. Your WW is in the fog and not mentally balanced, but YOU are a grown, mature man and you know what to do in order to have the best chance at saving your marriage and your family, but you WILL NOT DO IT.
So this is it, man. "Put up or shut up," because as much as I care about you and have been your MB friend and guide, I am not willing to allow you to lie to me. Nor am I willing to know that you KNOW that you should be in Plan B right now, and then be "comforting and supportive" when you come back with yet another report of how hurt you are from another contact with WW where she twisted your words, etc. when you KNOW that you should be in PLAN B and not having any contact with her!! Nor am I willing to know that you KNOW your best chance to save your marriage and family is to be in Plan B right now...and then be "comforting and supportive" when you come here with yet another report of how hurt you or your kids are that you're getting a divorce WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO FOR THE BEST CHANCE TO STOP A DIVORCE, AND WON'T DO IT!!
Eph, you know what to do and you're not doing it. You know what NOT to do, and you're doing it! I'm not willing to sit idly by and watch you behave in a way that I personally believe is wrong and destructive to your marital covenant. Time to man up!!!! Go into Plan B NOW!!!!!!!!
Wow CJ, I don't know how many times you have made the point about wanting to be Eph's intermediary. Is there a special reason why you want to be so intimately involved in his life?
I too have sat and read day by day his denial of the fact that he does not feel ready to do Plan B. I am not sure vehement posts like this will help him.
We all have different timing, I too am sure his time to do plan B is long past due, maybe this is the week he will act. We all have a point of no return, I truly hope he is there, i didn't find Plan B was agony, it was relief, it fitted exactly with the 180, and built my self esteem and self worth - not the logical knowledge, but the emotional kind that is deep in the soul.
Maybe a man would be a better intermediary 9f they have to be from here - another woman seems a bit like provocation to his WW IMO. Maybe I am all wrong here, but it just seems a bit off balance to use a woman from here that WW doesn't know, to be the intermediary for a BS.
Ethics are all in this situation, and the impression she (WW) has of Eph's ethics will influence how she looks back and sees the light when the time is ripe.
CJ - first let me say I do appreciate your advice and your bluntness. I've needed my share of swift 2x4x on occasion.
I don't think this is one of them and here is why:
First thing is I talked to SH about this on 7/9. He gave me a task to do because "she still needs to believe tht she would be the happiest to be in love with the father of her children, EVERYTHING ELSE IS FOUNDED ON THAT" (emphasis mine). Once I have completed that then plan B.
Second, I am NOT willing to compromise the position I have put myself into regarding my kids future. Sure I want to save my marriage, and second to that I want to protect my kids. I know plan B is what I need, believe me. But I am not going to let my twisted thinking WW ruin what I am doing for me and my kid's sake.
I appreciate the offer to be my intermediary, but I think the time difference COULD pose a problem. Now I could be wrong (I need to go back and re-read) but I don't think anyone else volunteered to be my intermediary (nope, I double checked). I DO think having someone educated in MB principles would be an excellent choice, though.
I don't want to argue over this. I know you mean well but your post stings right now. Tomorrow it might feel different. Just letting you know Mama Bee.
We are on Eastern and my husband would help if you really needed someone. As a FWH he might be a good choice - on the other hand I bet if you asked for a volunteer nearer you there are many male MBrs you know well who would offer to help you.
You will get there, it took me a long time. I did it too soon at first and it back-fired. So we all have our time. Let me tell you getting ready to do Plan B for the second time was a lot harder. Just do it right this time. SH will guide you.
Wow CJ, I don't know how many times you have made the point about wanting to be Eph's intermediary. Is there a special reason why you want to be so intimately involved in his life?
sigh.... what was the point of this gratuitious cheap shot? CJ has been nothing but sincerely helpful to many on this board so this comment was very uncalled for. I happen to be an intermediary in a similar situation, and the only reason I offered was because I cared about the couple, and I have no doubt this is CJ's motivation.
Quote
We are on Eastern and my husband would help if you really needed someone. Maybe a man would be a better intermediary 9f they have to be from here - another woman seems a bit like provocation to his WW IMO. Maybe I am all wrong here, but it just seems a bit off balance to use a woman from here that WW doesn't know, to be the intermediary for a BS.
I don't see how a man would be a better intermediary for a FEMALE. Do you know something the rest of us don't? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Isn't that just ASKING for trouble? The best choice is a neutral party that is known by BOTH, but if that is not available, then any neutral party that will cooperate within the limitations of an intermediary is appropriate. My LAST choice would be a former wayward HUSBAND, with a track record of serial cheating, for obvious reasons.
[you want your H, with his track record to be the intermediary for wayward female? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> "Him WS 52 P/A. PA + Multiple EAs from day one."]
CJ, I agree with every word you posted and I only hope that our friend, Eph, does listen and follow through as planned. Eph, don't make us come over there, mister! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Eph, if you cannot find anyone else, I would agree to do it and I am on CST. I want to say first that I think CJ would be an excellent choice, but if there is a time difference issue, I would do it. I don't think you would find the time difference to be much of a challenge, though, if you have carefully worked things out beforehand.
For example, you would set up a strict visitation calendar beforehand, so there should almost nothing to communicate about unless an emergency arose. And in the case of an emergency, she would know she could contact you directly anyway. What you don't want to be communicating about is minor crap like "send Sally's pink tennis shoes in her back pack." That type of communication will have to cease.
What will need to be passed on is information about doctors visits, medicine, school plays, etc, and none of that is urgent. So, the time difference should not be an impediment, IMO, unless there is something here I don't know about.
It was not a cheap shot it was a question - boy you guys are on tenterhooks...
The reason I think a man would be best is that she doesn't trust this site or she would be here and talking to SH, so a woman might be seen as less than trustworthy, or somehow involved, in her "fog eyes". I know I would never have a man my husband did not know and from a site he didn't trust be an intermediary.
I had no idea that people on this forum acted that way for each other, couldn't see how that worked but now you explain that it is common here, I can see that CJ was just repeating it, to cut off his escape into another excuse as she saw it.
I can see that many of you agree that Eph should go for it, but I say if he is paying SH $185.00 per hour for advice and you do not agree with him taking it, you should yell at SH.
Sorry CJ - I guess cheap shots are in the eye of the beholder. I hope you didn't feel that way. No offence intended. I will go away and be quiet again. nuff thread jack - I'm gone.
Wow CJ, I don't know how many times you have made the point about wanting to be Eph's intermediary. Is there a special reason why you want to be so intimately involved in his life?
I too have sat and read day by day his denial of the fact that he does not feel ready to do Plan B. I am not sure vehement posts like this will help him.
We all have different timing, I too am sure his time to do plan B is long past due, maybe this is the week he will act. We all have a point of no return, I truly hope he is there, i didn't find Plan B was agony, it was relief, it fitted exactly with the 180, and built my self esteem and self worth - not the logical knowledge, but the emotional kind that is deep in the soul.
Maybe a man would be a better intermediary 9f they have to be from here - another woman seems a bit like provocation to his WW IMO. Maybe I am all wrong here, but it just seems a bit off balance to use a woman from here that WW doesn't know, to be the intermediary for a BS.
Ethics are all in this situation, and the impression she (WW) has of Eph's ethics will influence how she looks back and sees the light when the time is ripe.
Repectfuly SP
Dear silverpool,
I hope you don't mind, but I did want to reply to your questions and I didn't think that threadjacking Eph's thread was the proper way to do that, so I made you your very own thread! Then, as Eph rightly pointed out, there are lots of details on here specifically about him, so I made your post more a generic discussion, and brought the details here on Eph's thread.
First, I think you questions are very legitimate and appropriate. I thank you that you are "on guard" for appropriateness between MB members--that's a virtue! In my particular instance, I am a married lady and I do not converse at all with any men unless it is out here in public on a forum that everyone can read -or- unless my DH has a copy and is involved in reading it right along with me. Eph is aware of this, but I can see that I haven't really written that all over MB, so now you'all know.
Second, no, I do not really want to be intimately involved in Eph life or in the life of his WW. I offer the option of being an intermediary when I see people who are saying they have no one else and in Eph's case, when they're using it as an excuse to not go into a Plan B that they need to go into. In this instance I think a female intermediary for Eph may or may not be good for him, but it would definitely be good for his WW. Most importantly though, what I was trying to point out to him was that "I don't have an intermediary" is not really a valid excuse. On other threads all over the forum, I've seen people volunteer to be an intermediary. On this thread, after my post, Mel volunteered. I would be willing to bet that Mortarman might do it for a while if asked. Finally, I know people who will be intermediaries for a price--in other words they charge money to do it. So in real life there are no shortage of trained, skilled intermediaries! And I did mention to Eph several times that I could understand if he just didn't feel comfortable with me for any number of reasons (including "I don't feel like it")--that there are still a NUMBER of options left!!
The WHAM of the MB 2x4 I have to admit, I thought and thought and thought about last night. Anyone who knows me at all, knows that I'm a peace-loving kinda gal. But I'll be just as honest with you, silverpool, as I was with Eph. I think he needed a fairly swift kick to the heiney. I think he is using SH's words as a crutch to not do what he knows he needs to do...and to do what he knows he needs to stop doing. I do not have a quarrel with SH (nor really Eph either)--I tried to be blunt and frank with Eph in the hopes that he would lift his head, see reality, gather his courage, and take the jump into doing what is right but what he is afraid to do. In my mind, I envisioned it as a mama bird who sometimes needs to push the baby out of the nest. Some baby birds jump willingly...some take longer but jump on their own...and some need a push.
Next, I do realize that what I said and the way I said it may indeed have hurt Eph's feelings. Trust me, I thought on that long and hard. Here was the deciding factor for me. Not all "pain" should be avoided. Sometimes it hurts to grow or mature, and thus Proverbs 27:6 "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are lavish and deceitful." I don't want to "support and comfort" Eph when I perceive that to be the kisses of an enemy!!
Finally, your final comment is RIGHT ON THE MONEY. There are ethics involved, and from what I can tell, right now WW is not getting the effect of "laying the cornerstone that she could be most happy in this marriage" due to mixed messages from Eph. First, she's bipolar so her perceptions of the world are a bit skewed...in addition to her already skewed view from WS-fog!! Second, she is confused by some of the times when it has appeared to her that he has said, "yes" and then said "no." (It's not always what actually occurred but she plays it that way, and sometimes it did occur that way). Third, due to his resentment building due to continued contact that he shouldn't be having, HE is being more and more hurt, and rather than behaving in a Plan A way that meets her needs and makes him appear as an attractive alternative, he is literally LEAKING resentment and DJ's all over the place and doesn't know it. He spars with her verbally and then denies he's doing it. He DJ's about what is important to her. And that does NOT "lay the cornerstone of being happiest in this marriage"!!! In fact, if anything it confirms to WW that she is happiest AWAY from it!!!
So the damage that I am trying to get Eph to stop is a) damage to himself by continuing the contact and b) damage to his marriage by continuing to confirm that she is more happy away from the marriage and family. I don't want to see him hurt anymore than any one of his other friends...but the path he is choosing is a path that leads toward his own harm (because he continues to "take in" her blame, her vileness, her WS-fog babble, etc.) and the eventual destruction of his marriage and family. If he could get into Plan B, I believe as an individual he would heal nicely when not subjected to the almost daily onslaughts of a wayward's hurtfulness. The peace of Plan B would be a huge blessing. And if he could get into Plan B, I also believe that he would have a better chance at learning how to validate her feelings, how to actually listen to her hurts rather than defend, how to avoid verbal sparring, etc.!! That would be a GREAT opportunity then to save the marriage!!!!
Alas, he chooses to continue to stay in denial. I am VERY sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
1. Recent talk of taking the next step and the net appearing. 2. CJ calling me out 3. Today's message in church.
Read above for #1 and #2. For #3, read on.
Today's message was titled "When Jesus multiplies what we give Him," taken from John 6:1-13 regarding the miracle of Jesus feeding the 5000.
Key points were: -No one is small or unimportant when his life is in the hands of God. -God seems to prefer to work through what we call small or unimportant. -God just wants us to be faithful with what we have.
Notes I wrote: -Little is much when God is in it -God steps in when we reach our limit -No one is small, unimportant, or ordinary to God -God does the extraordinary with the ordinary -Give God the very best you have and leave the results to Him
So how does this all fit together for me?
It's apparent to many that I have reached my limit and I risk causing further damage to what I have done. As much as I don't want to see this, it's true. Plan A was about me and God, plan B is all about God now.
I'm just an ordinary person why has tried to follow the MB principles. Everyone else here is just ordinary as well, not professionals as we so affectionately call them (I mean who really WANTS to be a pro at this?), but they are battle scarred and battle hardened based on their experiences. I am thankful for everyone who has come along side me in my time of need.
Finally, I did the best I could so far, and that was far from perfect. I did some things well, some not so well. No matter, I will leave the results to God now.
CJ - I know you mean well. Tough love. Thank you, becuase if not for your post I would not have made the connection. You brought everything into the forefront of my thoughts. It needed to happen. So much in fact that I dreamed last night that we came face to face, and strangely you were on staff at my church. Weird.
As I said above, I think having someone familiar with MB principles is a good idea. Regarding the male vs. female argument, I think WW is less likely to talk to a male than a female. What can work in my favor is the female is not local.
I commented above on the time difference, speculating that it COULD be an issue based on my limited knowledge. CJ, if you feel it would not be an issue would you still be willing? You've also got mail.
When I meet with my attorney and the GAL this week I will show them the PBL and tell them why I have already done it.
After posting this, I am handwriting the PBL to be delivered tomorrow.
You are all right - it's past time. I will not be enslaved by fear any longer.
Wow! I don't even know what to say. I am always willing--you know that. And if you would feel more comfortable with someone else or think someone else would be a wiser choice, I'm sure there are several people here who would be willing to do this for you. I have great confidence in the "MB team" (although we'll never be the same now that Pep is retired).
I'm glad that God was able to speak to ya today. Keep listening for His voice, and you won't go wrong.
Your faithful friend,
CJ
P.S. I'm going offline for a little bit to dig some weeds, so I'm not ignoring ya or being mad--just digging weeds on the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Thank you for such a great, non adversarial reply. I really did need to know. I may not post much but I have been reading here for 5 years, so I am not new, but still do not always "read" what is happening and of course see it through my own experience. Your reply made me laugh a few times, AND gave me a text I have been trying to remember for a week. Thanks for that too. I need it tomorrow night when I have to give one of my clients a (2x4).
If I hadn't felt weird about your post and been honest about it, I wouldn't have got that text and would not be able to use God's word to help someone tomorrow. God does work in mysterious ways and NOTHING is unimportant to HIM. We never know when or how we are being used as a part of His plan.
So Eph. your thread will help someone who has never heard of MB, and does not need it, but needs that text.
silverpool - No doubt God works in mysterious ways, and all the glory goes to Him. His timing is perfect, and I am just glad I could play a role. Stay with me, the ride may get bumpy.
So, the PBL is now handwritten and the package is ready for delivery tomorrow. Darkness falls at 5pm EST on Monday 7/23 and it's not from a solar eclipse.
You may not know this...but the battle for your marriage ends today. At least for you! Your commanding officer (the Lord) has now said "You have fought well...now rest. I will take it from here."
All of the pain, the ups and downs, the uncertainty...will begin to leave. No more worrying about if you are doing things right or wrong. No more having foggy lies shoved down your throat. Life now begins to take on whatever you want it to be.
But, as I have done before...I again must caution you. I have told you before about what your wife will most likely do, in regards to trying to break Plan B. Dont let her.
But, the caution I give you today is one of complacency. You will have a couple weeks of let down, of withdrawal. It is to be expected, and we are here to help you thru that. Keep yourself busy. And, dont be afraid to grieve your loss!
But, coming out of those 2-3 weeks, you will be faced with "so, what now?" It is at that point, you need a plan. A plan to get your family back on its feet and moving forward again. Remember...Plan B is about YOU!! It is about taking control, about moving forward. So, that plan will be key. Dont let the withdrawal drag on. In the beginning, you will have to "fake it until you make it."
Each day you will get stronger, as long as you stay dark and not have relapses from interacting with your wife.
Trust the Lord to take care of your wife...and shut things down. Then trust the Lord to heal you. And finally, trust the Lord to provide doors for where He wants you to go...and walls for where he doesnt.
I delivered the notebook to WW this morning and told her we would be using it to communicate about the kid's. She seemed taken aback and said nothing.
I met with my IC today and we talked through my conversation with WW two weeks ago (I sent her the recording) and also the PBL. I was distant and unemotional in that conversation with WW (others who have heard it will probably agree) and that probably was due to the fact that I have reached the end of myself and, as has been pointed out, I am doing more harm than good. She suggested a few points on the PBL, but I have already written it out, sealed it in an envelope, and it's in the car ready to be delivered, so no further changes will happen.
She suggested an attempt to correct the points where the conversation went bad, not in a unemotional way, but in a way that WW would see the true passion in me. I said I didn't know if I could do that right now.
She said that based on what she heard in the conversation that WW will probably see the PBL as me giving up. This is what I suspected could be her interpretation and why I was afraid to do it. In the end I said "So far it has been me and God, now it's time for just God." He will be enough.
faith is an amazing thing and it will certainly help you get through this...
I know for me personally, it's what I have had to relay on...and I have seen how it's grown stronger...this was a change that I wanted and needed in my life...
It really is ok here in the dark! I turned on my Unicorn night light, plus we have so many folks here helping & supporting us that I know we will both be much better in the coming weeks!
I will wait right here to hold your hand when you come over to The Darkside! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Seriously, it will be OK. It is time for you to take care of YOU!
She may see it as you giving up. She is very selfish right now.
But, you don't deserve to be treated so poorly. Your PBL explains your love and why now and your Plan A demonstrated your changes and who you want to be as a husband. You have worked very hard and should be very proud!
She would not give me the notebook back because she had not looked at it. I told her she would get it back tomorrow. She refused and when in the house and locked the doors. I knocked and waited about 5 mins but she would not come to the door.
I slid the PBL into the door, then called her and left a voice message on her cell phone and send her a TM, telling her to acknowledge in the appropriate manner that she received the letter.
EPH, good job! Just relax, the ball is now in her court. You don't have to do anything more. You have delivered the letter, just GO DARK. The rest is up to her. Awesome!
I did send an email requesting confirmation of the exchange schedule. Since I don't plan to do a play-by-play of every email (VERY non-intermediary like) I did think this was one worry that I could alleviate.
I'm with everyone. I suspect she has read the notebook, the PBL, and is mad as a wet hen and stewing about it...but we'll see.
Eph, I am so proud of you!!! You will not regret this, although right this moment, TONIGHT, it might feel awful.
Wow! I am amazed at you! You are still alive and doing it basically on your own. No, I'm serious. My friend, I have had some folks here on MB with whom I've sat up all night with them on their first night of Plan B...and most of the next couple of days! You are amazingly strong.
I have a few practical suggestions for you the next day or two. First, if anyone has ever doubted/wondered if BS's go through withdrawal...you will now be able to answer them. BS's MOST DEFINITELY go through withdrawal just as strongly as WS's do. Right now will be the worst of it for you. If you can get through the next few days (and I mean 2-3) then it starts to ease from there. I don't care what you do, any time you're tempted to contact, REACH OUT! Don't do it!! Because every time you contact, you have to start all over again. Just grit and bear with it, and we'll help ya through.
Next, I suggest that you make plans for the next two days for pretty much every second of your waking life...and make them somewhat fun plans. What I mean is this: do not "plan" to go through your wedding pics right now and sort them out. "Plan" to go to dinner with a friend you lost contact with. "Plan" church, bible study, prayer meeting, or something uplifting like that. "Plan" to go someplace you have always wanted to go (like to a bookstore, camping...something a little fun). "Plan" to watch that chick flick you would never let the guys catch you alive watching. But "plan" every minute to distract yourself as best you can through the next couple of days--and make plans that are a little encouraging because you don't need a downer right now.
Third...buy soup and kleenex with lotion. If you're crying a lot and use normal kleenex, you will rug burn the skin off your eyelids and nose, and that hurts a lot worse. Also, when you cry you have a lump in your throat and you can't eat, but you need to keep up your strength so eat soup. It's warm and nutritious.
Fourth, it's okay to use melatonin or tylenol p.m. to help yourself get some sleep during these couple of days, but don't get used to taking sleeping pills to sleep. Temporarily you will need your strength and concentration for work and the kids, so herbs or OTC=yes, it's reasonable; anything stronger (including drinking to excess)=no and/or check with your doctor first. I'll be blunt. Lots of times men feel so hurt and can't let it out that they will turn to drinking to numb the hurt a bit. I'm not judging them--the pain is so great that some can't bear it--but if you're tempted to "have a couple beers" it's probably best if you wait until you're over the hump of these first few days. Just friendly advice from someone who's been there, done that.
Finally, there are MANY, MANY people here who I know for a fact would be willing to get a call from you, day or night, if you're having a tough time. You know who they are, but I'd say pretty much everyone who has replied on this thread! Thus, do not be afraid to reach out to your friends. We ARE here.
Keep on, dear friend. A few more hours and it will get a little better.
Third...buy soup and kleenex with lotion. If you're crying a lot and use normal kleenex, you will rug burn the skin off your eyelids and nose, and that hurts a lot worse.
Oh, for a second there I though you were recommending he do something else. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
She has the PBL. You are now dark. No more worrying about what her response will be. No wondering if she will text back, or even send the notebook back. You just keep driving on.
Your family is moving on without her. At this time, you must pretend as if your wife has died. What would you do if that happened? How would you proceed raising those kids? what plans would there be at this point for your life? Remember, if she were really dead, there would be no way for you to contact her. So, even if she approaches you...you tell yourself that this is just a stranger...your wife is dead.
Now, the great thing about this is IF your wife reaches out to the Lord, then she will be brought back to life. But that is neither in your power, nor your concern. If it happens, you will know. Until that happens (or if that happens), you have a life to lead and kids to raise.
As the others have said, I am proud of you. The next week or so will be rough...but you will make it.
E, WOW...it's a new day and I didn't get a call from you!
Like I said yesterday, don't be afraid to call, my good man, I may need to hear from you more than you need to talk to me! You never know when you are actually helping the other person on the other end of that phone!
You will not be imposing, I promise! This was something that was hard for me to learn...
Look like CJ and I are on the same page with withdrawal...you'll be just fine! keep yourself busy and do like CJ says, REACH OUT!
We're all here for you! How are you this morning?
Self-care my friend, self-care is so important, because if you are not right than those beautiful kids are not right!
You have finally arrived! Welcome. I know you really did not want to enter the darkness of plan B, but it will get better. CJ has your back, lots of us here for you anytime you need something.
You have fought hard for your family and should be proud. Now, once withdrawl passes, you can relax and find true enjoyment from life again. I know I am really looking forward to that myself.
Regarding staying busy, I had some friends and their kids over last night for dinner to help keep my mind of things.
At one point I just had to go out on the deck and look up at the moon and stars for a bit. One of my friends came out and prayed with me.
I am so exhausted that sleep is not a problem right now.
I have reached out to some people here on MB and I appreciate their willingness to talk and listen and read. So many have been here with me from the start and I am thankful you have stayed with me on this journey.
Phil 3:12-14 (The Message) I'm not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made. But I am well on my way, reaching out for Christ, who has so wondrously reached out for me. Friends, don't get me wrong: By no means do I count myself an expert in all of this, but I've got my eye on the goal, where God is beckoning us onward—to Jesus. I'm off and running, and I'm not turning back.
The only thoughts I cannot get out of my head are how she is gonna twist this to use it against me. Since I can't think like an illogical wayward I can;t see how she can do this, but I know that becuase she is an illogical wayward she will do it. This thought actually crossed my mind last night - Do I even want to be married to her?
I plan to e-mail the attorney and the GAL to let them know what has happened. Honestly, I would prefer to have custody taken care of in the next mediation session because that is the only thing left that requires the possibility of contact.
Jim - I got a chuckle from your response. Is it true that Kleenex, not a dog, is man's best friend? Remember Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handy (http://www.cco.net/~jpete/deepthou.htm)
If this person does not get in touch with WW can his person watch the kids all day?
I also recommend that you come up with another plan for daycare if you can...just as back up...WW may be rebelling right now, but she does want to spend time with the kids!
I got an IM from a good friend at work today. She sent me this:
Quote
don't know why I have been drawn but I have been praying for you today - just letting you know. Hope things are ok.
I told her of what happened yesterday and even shared with her the PBL. We both agreed that it's no coincidence that she felt the need to pray. God's divine providence.
Well not much I can do here, but I have put you on our prayer list. There are 4,000 plus around the world and at any time 2 people will be praying for you so you have some extra "round the clock" care.
Eph.
Just remember you have in you a pure white light of God. We all do, nothing we do and nothing we hav done to us can extinguish that light. Our pain or deeds sometimes cloud our vision of that light and the love and strength we can draw from it.
Sometimes we do not know it is there at all, especially when we are overwhelmed by pain. So when you are doing well, connect with that part of Himself God has within you, so you know where it is and what it looks like. Then go to it if you need peace and comfort.
I know many look for God outside themselves, but the day He gave us life He put a part of Him in us and it remains until we leave this body.
God Bless and remember God has his hand on your shoulder and His light within you.
Oh OK. As you ask - I phoned before the meeting to give him the text to look up and ponder. His Pastor had stopped by! Another sign. When I got there he had looked up Proverbs 25:6, also really appropriate for the situation, amazing how, when you take a step, God adds to it.
The meeting went really well, as far as I could tell, but you never quite know. If he heeds it, quite a few people's daily lives will be better. If not, I guess I keep on working at it as long as he is asking me for help. One step forward - then one step back, so God can lead the way.
I've prayed for the peace that passes all understanding.
Well, I feel peace and I don't understand it.
Bugs - Probably the same for you.
SP - Thanks for the e-card and your thoughts and prayers.
RMX - if you are reading, I got your e-mail and will reply soon.
Two TMs from WW yesterday afternoon asking what the deal was with the kids for the night. I'm thinking, Duh!, they spend the night at your house just like every Tuesday night. I was disappointed that she did that, but shook it off. Checked in with CJ and she handled it.
Will see how the exchange goes this afternoon and if she drops them off as requested.
Right here with you, feeling a surprising amount of peace! Ups and downs the last few days, but more ups than downs! For me, there was a sense of euphoria at first, then lately a couple of days of wondering if I did the 'right' thing, even though I KNOW I did. Normal I think
My attorney BCC'ed me on an e-mail reply to the GAL. GAL had sent an e-mail to him and WW's attorney stating "I understand we have a problem with the visitation exchanges now." My attorney replied that he had not heard anything but would check in with me. We talked and I explained to him the deal. He sent this reply back to the GAL:
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I talked to Eph525. He will explain it more to you when you meet, but as I understand it, he was making a proposal to her about how he would like the exchanges to go and she shut the door on him and wouldn’t communicate.
I was a nervous wreck for a bit, but I am cool now. He has to fight this fight for me as well, after all that is his job ( and I think he has had it pretty easy so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )
Hopefully she follows the rules for the exchange this afternoon.
Well it appears that WW would rather run up both of our lawyer's fees than use the intermediary. She even falsely claimed that I was threatening to take away Tuesday overnight visits. She also does not want to change the exchanges to be at a neutral location, only wanting to follow the temp order and not offering a compromise.
What a tangled web she weaves - about the time I feel like I am getting somewhat free I get sucked back in. I can't even feel the complete peace of plan B yet.
Hopefully I can get some clarity this afternoon after talking with the GAL - that is at 3 today. Pray for me.
Let your A do his job, that is why you pay him! Step back and stay dark!
Let Her go to fall into the mess she has made for herself. If she decides she is ready to clean up her act, be a good Mother to her children and a MAH-VE-LOUS wife to you, THEN you can think about dealing with or talking to her but not before.
Remember and review earlier comments I made about communicating with the GAL.
You are well practiced but remember
The kids best interest is all the GAL is concerned with.
You marriage is irrelevant to her.
You can mention Plan B's purposes but don't make "saving the marriage" the primary focus. You are not mad. You don't hate your wife...just preserving any feelings you have left just in case she changes her mind. You aren't punishing her or being vindictive. Plan B is for peace...a contented father is better for the kids. Peace is better for the kids. You ARE communicating with your wife and you fully intend to continue co-parenting the children; however, extra interpersonal contentious contact with her is distressing to you and the family.
I hope Eph doesn't mind, but I'll throw in my own personal observations.
First, he is doing REALLY WELL! I am so proud of him. His WW is not the "yeller and screamer" type that will call 100X or email over and over...she's more the "manipulate things behind the scenes" type--telling the truth is optional. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, so far she has been pretty silent to us but talking to everyone else behind backs. Thankfully, Eph was wise and prepared for his Plan B by talking to his Atty. and the GAL and he had laid the groundwork. They understand that he's doing this as a healthy, personal boundary and that POV works fine for now.
Also, I have to say that so far as I can tell, he has maintained a dark NC and when confused as to whether to contact or not or what re: kids, he has asked me for advice on how to proceed. Hey, Plan B with kids can be tough if the WS wants to keep up their relationship with the kids (sadly, so many don't).
Keep praying for the atty. to do his work and do it well--and for the GAL to have wisdom--and for Eph to stay dark..but so far...so good!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The darkness of plan B has been soothing. The only trigger I have experienced so far was when the kids and I went to watch a friend of DS6 play t-ball. Seeing the other kids there with both sets of parents was a little depressing - knowing that my kids can't have that right now.
Anyway, the meeting with the GAL went really well. She REALLY liked the notebook idea and commented that she would recommend that in some of her other cases. She also REALLY liked the article that h&p linked above, that it showed that I was not operating on some half-cocked crazy idea that I concocted.
We basically focused on the points communication, plan B, and education. It seemed like she agreed with everything I had to say. That bothers me somewhat but I can't believe that she, being in the position she is in, would agree with me in a face-to-face meeting but then disagree later on. I did not lay all my cards out, though, regarding things my attorney has told me, especially comments she (the GAL) has made to him. I kept the focus primarily on the kids and their best interests, but did comment that I did not think it was in the kids best interests to for WW to stay home all the time becuase it felt to me like she was using that as an excuse to not work. GAL agreed.
The one thing she spoke cautiously about was communication related issues in plan B - which leads to what CJ said above. I've been nothing but dark, but the GAL commented on communicating about some non-emergency issues and why that could be done better face-to-face rather than via the notebook. (for example, signing the kids up for sports or other activities).
We had one potential issue Friday afternoon - while I was meeting with the GAL, WW calls and leaves a message (breaking plan B). I did not want to listen to the message, and I could not get in touch with CJ at the moment, so I had the person helping with the child exchanges (K) call my voice mail and listen to it. It was not a life or death situation, but was regarding the exchange for Friday. Since the e-mails were flying between the lawyers Friday, she was going to bring the kids home at 5pm. I told K to tell WW that I would not be home by 5 and that she should take them to K's house. K later told me that WW said "This is the last time." Whatever.
So I guess the struggle for me is how dark can you be when kids are involved? Especially based on the GAL's comments. If WW calls me, should I first ask her "Is this a life and death situation?" and if it's not direct her to CJ as the intermediary?
I need to spend some time this week getting education issues lined up for my kids. DS6 will be in first grade but I want to switch him to the elementary school that is in the area of where I want to move us to. The sticking point is that I wal want to but DD4 into the K-4 program, but WW was adamantly against that. Well, the GAL felt like it was a good idea to do it, but there is a small catch with scheduling. School start 8/20 and our next mediation is scheduled for 8/23. Perhaps I can have my attorney pursue some kind of agreement this week.
OK, well we are off to church. I'll check in later becuase I am sure I forgot a few things and will remember them soon enough <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Seems with "temporary primary placement" you get to call the shots until, at the very least, the hearing where the judge could take it away (God forbid).
Thus...you are left with documenting your reasonable and exhaustive efforts at documenting the issue and failure to agree is OK. YOU have been placed in the primary position right now to make the call. The court trusted YOU.
Just be careful how you wield that authority and mark your words carefully. In the end...YOU decide where the kids are enrolled and in school with deep regrets expressed. It's really to your advantage that by the time of the hearing you will have them already enrolled.
Sure Plan B with kids is tough. The custody and divorce proceedings make it much tougher. The main reason she won't honor Plan B is she (and her attorney) desire to use it as leverage in their case against you. It will get easier.
Mortarman's got some great posts about how to handle phone calls where the wayward calls even though there is no emergency. For a short time you may need to take those calls and allow those calls for your case.
On second thought I don't know why...if you let it go to voice mail then let CJ or someone else listen to it and if it's a non-emergency then give a very delayed response (but a response non-the-less). Try to teach her that using the intermediary is the most efficient way to get a response (and always respond as quickly as possible if she follows the system). Then later...you can demonstrate/state that the system was/is more efficient and communication more effective if SHE would only follow the rules everythime. It will shoot any argument that the system is not best for the kids down in it's tracks.
AMEN, to what Mr. W said. A portion of Plan B is about respecting boundaries. Prior to Plan B, the WS did not behave in a way that indicated they respected the BS very much--much less respecting their personal boundaries. In Plan A the BS is not encouraged to trample their own boundaries, but they ARE encouraged to behave in ways that would meet the WS's ENs and make the BS an attractive option when compared to the OP. Plan B establishes some respect--and even if the WS doesn't show respect, at least the BS is finally enforcing some of their own personal boundaries and respecting THEMSELF.
In a good Plan B, even with kids, don't take calls from the WS. But you know what does happen sometimes? The phone rings, you pick it up without looking, and it's WS. How to handle that?? "Is this an emergency involving blood or fire? It's not. Then as I wrote, I'm going to hang up now." CLICK. Let the WS leave a VM if they insist on calling...and most DO continue to call despite what the BS wrote, because if they respected the BS there probably wouldn't be an A, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thus, one of the BEST ways of enforcing a good Plan B is not only to not take the calls--but also to do as Mr. W suggests when they do call. Make "calling" be a long, inefficient process that is very delayed if there's a response at all...and make "using the intermediary" be a swift, efficient, responsive way of communicating the bare minimum of business-like transactions.
And all along the way, document. Document in your daily calendar each legal maneuver she tries, each time she won't use the notebook, etc. Just make a STATEMENT not a judgement (for example, "WS did not use the notebook to communicate about DS's baseball team signup, then tried to call at the last minute" vs. "WS just will not use the notebook no matter how many times I remind her, and now she's trying to force me to take her phone call about DS's baseball signup!" )
Mr. W and CJ are right on. Let me expound on this issue for a minute, as I have been EXACTLY in your shoes!!
First off, if it werent for the court issues and your kids, you could NEVER take another call or listen to her again. But, since you do have kids and are in a custody battle, then you must be very deliberate in your steps. I also had primary custody. And as such, the issues you are confronting, I also had to confront. So, here is how I handled it.
As I said, in a perfect world, you would be perfectly dark with her. No direct or indirect communications. But, this is not possible. So, how do you do Plan B? How do you stay as dark as possible? How do you defend your boundaries, as CJ talked about above?
First, let me show you an instance where my wife broke Plan B a year ago, after we had gone to court. This particular day, my youngest son had baseball practice (he always has had practice on Tuesdays and Thursdays). I am the manager of the team. Her days with the kids were Monday night, Tuesday and Wednesday. So, she had been making a huge ruckus about my son not coming to baseball practices on her time, as she put it. I had repeatedly (thru the approved Plan B avenues) told her that this schedule was the one he had always had, that I wasnt moving it just for her (as there are 12 other kids on the team) and that I would let my attorney know of this. And then I documented it.
So, on this Tuesday, she shows up 20 minutes late with my son. She stays in the parking lot for a few minutes, then text messages me that she is going to the store, but will be back at the end of practice to pick up my son. So far, so good, right? Well, while she is at the store, she text messages me again...that she isnt going to do this anymore and that he will no longer be coming on her time. In my one relapse, I text back "You are a piece of work."
Anyway, the end of practice comes. I am out picking up baseballs and equipment on the field, talking with my coaches, as the players are heading to their cars. And out onto the field walks my wife. And she commences to go off on me. Screaming and yelling. Threatening me.
Know what I did? Nothing. I didnt even look at her. I just sat on a ball bucket and waited for her to run out of air. Eventually, she just left in a huff. Two of my coaches and several parents (as well as a few players) saw the whole thing.
The next day, my attorney got a letter faxed to him from her attorney, with them stating that I had been verbally abusive, that I was making decisions for my son on her time and a whole host of other issues. Know what my attorney sent to her attorney in return? Nothing. No response. No explanation. But...EVERYTHING was documented. My attorney just told me that with all of the witnesses, that my wife would just go up on the stand and tell her story...and then everyone we brought in would refute it. And that would put her in a very bad situation with the judge.
The point of all of this Eph is that Plan B and these methods arent some crack pot idea that you are being asked to implement. These plans have been used for years and well documented and researched. They work. But each situation is slightly different. So, as the battfield commander on the ground, it is YOU that must make the call in each specific instance. And you did well in the cases above.
Now, were there times that my wife was able to talk to me? Sure. She might catch me out in public, or at the front door during kid exchanges. Or, even catch me picking up the phone by accident. So, what did I do in most of those cases? Well, I did exactly as I did in the baseball instance. I said NOTHING. Here is an example of a BS accidentally answering the phone...
BS: "Hello." WS: "Hey. I wanted to talk to you." BS: ((((Silence)))) WS: "Are you there?" BS: "Is this an emergency?" WS: "No. But I was thinking about a few things and just wanted to talk with you about them." BS: (((Silence))) WS: "Are you going to talk to me?" BS: (((Silence))) WS: "This is childish. All I wanted to do was talk to you about a few things and you cant even act like an adult. You can be such a baby." BS: (((Silence))) WS: "Well, it is your loss. This why we can never be together. Blah, blah, blah..." BS: (((Silence))) WS: "Well, I guess I will hang up now." BS: Click.
Another way I handled it, when I got caught on the phone, was to just ask her if she was ready to live up to the PBL. When she said no or digressed, then I just said that until she was, I had nothing to say and I had to go. And then I hung up before hearing her response.
The better way to handle this is to be careful and not answer the phone unless you are sure who it is. I got a second line in the house with a distinctive ring for the kids. When that ring happened, they would always I answer. I never would. If the main line rang, I would always check caller ID. If it was her or I didnt know who it was, then all of those calls went to voicemail.
Now, you can handle the voicemails in one or two ways. You can have someone else check the VM for you and let you know what she said or wanted. Or, you can check them. Sure, that sort of is contact. But as I said, there is no way to go completely dark with kids. Whether it be the notebook, VMs intermediaries or text messages, some interaction has to happen.
The key to this is that you enforce your boundaries. If you will allow text messages, then there is no problem with that. Or if it is VMs, then that will be the acceptable way to trade info. But, if the acceptable way is VMs and she text messages, then respond back to her in the appropriate format. In thsi example, dont text her back. Leave a voicemail.
These are just examples. The key is that you must enforce your boundaries...but at the same time conduct the legal business of raising your children with your wife. It is a delicate balance. And you wont be perfect all the time, especially early on!
And think about this for a minute. If you are home, and the approved way for her to give or ask for information is via text messages, then if she text messages you, are you obligated to respond immediately? Of course not! What if you were sleeping, or in the shower, or out for a run? So, if she text messages you, she may have caught you at a bad time. And unless it is a bona fide emergency, she doesnt need or warrant an immediate response. You will get back to her when and if you have a response and are prepared to respond.
Sometimes, in the text message example here, she may send a text that requires no response. Example...
WW text: "I decided to get our daughter's hair trimmed this afternoon. Just thought you should know." BH text: No response. This doesnt require input by you. She neither deserves or warrants a thank you or anything else like that. You just receive the information and store it.
Here is another...
WW text: "I just found out today is the last day for swimming sign-ups. They will swim on Tuesday, Thursdays and Saturday mornings. Since you have them on the weekends, I wanted to make sure you are onboard with this. BH text: "I am onboard. Send receipt for cost and I will cover half." This text by her required a response, and a timely one at that. If you didnt respond, the kids might not be able to swim. But, your response is matter of fact. No thank-you's. No discussion. Notice, in my example, I didnt ask for anything. I just stated that I am onboard and I will cover half the cost of the registration fees.
Remember, for now, your wife is dead. So intimate discussions with a stranger (which is who your wife is right now) no longer can happen. This is a business transaction. And should be kept at that level.
As has been said, your wife is not liking this. She wants contact with you. Since you have been doing a great Plan A, she needs you to fill the ENs you have been filling. But she gets none of that now.
By going dark, she is on her own. She will feel even more lonely and afraid. This is good. It is those feelings that will help her understand what she feels for you. And that she has been so wrong in all of this!
And by going dark, you are in control again. You get to decide when and how interactions happen with your wife. You get to structure your life and the lives of your children, in a way that takes out most of the damage that your wife is inflicting upon all of you.
As Mr. W stated above, some interactions on some level are inevitable. How you handle them will decide whether your Plan B is successful. And success is measured in how you feel, are you moving forward, is your family moving foward. It is not measured in whether your wife has had a cranial-rectal extraction.
So, enforce your boundaries. Respond appropriately in all communications that are in the prescribed manner AND that warrant a response.
Any others require only silence.
This will get easier. Right now, she is in bully mode and entitlement mode. She believes that you HAVE to do whatever she wants. This is not the case, and she doesnt like it. So, she will try to bully you into interacting with her. When that doesnt work, she well pull back for awhile out of anger. Dont let that silence make you feel that she has just given up.
It was in that silence that my wife began to find the truth again. The truth about me...and the truth about herself. I nthat silence, she found a lonely place. She also found where she was supposed to be...and where she wanted to be.
In that silence, I found peace. In that silence, I regained my footing and began to take command again...to be the Mortarman I was before everythign had come crashing down. In that silence, I became a better dad. I got closer to the Lord. And I found that I was going to be alright no matter how it all turned out.
You too will get there. remember, you are in command. You know the guidelines...but it is up to you to implement them. And in each case, you will need to make the call on how to react.
Mr.W - I have not pushed the "temporary primary placement" aspect of the current custody situation. Maybe it's time for that, especially for matters in which we reach am impasse (like school for DD4).
My main concern is being consistent, something she always wants to bring up and throw up in my face. In my letter I said don't call, leave messages, e-mail, etc, and only call in life and death matters. Now I'm gonna go back on that and "accept" some form of small communication? Then what's the point of having given her the PBL?
I got this e-mail from her this afternoon:
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Eph525--
I appreciate the difficulties you are going through right now. However, adding a third party to communications about our children is only complicating our ability to communicate. I have informed CJ that her e-mail address is blocked from my account having already expressed my disagreement with this venue. It is in the best interest of our children to communicate directly. As such, I will e-mail you about non-urgent matters, and call your cell phone for urgent matters.
I appreciate your anticipated cooperation.
Ms. Eph525
PS--I will respond to CJ's forwards from you separately.
This was the response I quickly typed up:
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I agree it’s in the best interests of our children that we communicate directly. It’s also in their best interests to have their mother and father together in the home. Are you ready to do what it takes to do both?
Until you are willing to live up to the requirements I gave you in the letter, I have nothing else to say. The complicating factor has been your unwillingness to even use CJ as an intermediary, choosing instead to go through your lawyer and the GAL.
If you want to communicate via e-mail, please always copy CJ to ensure the quickest response.
Thoughts? I think this one warrants a response especially in light of her boldness in breaking plan B already and my need to establish boundaries.
Just my POV, but she is trying to force you to come out of the darkness, this is munipulation of her part...please do not allow her to have control over you...
Her and POWS are about the same in my book...two peas in a pod...
Let her wait as long as it takes...TBH, personally, I wouldn't response to that AT ALL...force her to use CJ...
She's still playing games, not fall into the trap...
Oh, I have been dark. I have not responded directly to her at all. Only CJ and K (3rd party person helping with child exchanges) have responded to her. Oh, and our lawyers and the GAL as well.
Couple of e-mails from Friday: My sent one stating that I would prefer her to return the kids to a neutral place rather than his house, and that it fit my schedule better and is probably more convenient for her (WW) too.
Her lawyer replied that WW does not find that to be the case at all and does not want to involve third parties, and that I should utilize their residences as ordered.
Like I said before - K's house is 1 mile from WW's house, while our house (kids and I) is around 4-5 miles away. That's not more convenient? Riiiiight.
I think the best way to handle this is to forward the email to CJ, then CJ responds by emailing an email back to you which you forward to her.
This, of course, is cumbersome...but that's the point. If she wants/needs a quicker response...she's better off just using CJ as this way requires you and CJ to handle things in a more drawn out...time consuming manner.
Perhaps a brief note when you forward it...never mind...CJ's response should include the following:
"This is making things more difficult. Since you are blocking my emails...then that necessitates Eph forwarding your emails to him to me ...unread...to which I have to respond and reply back to him and he has to forward it on to you...again, unread. Of course, if this is how you demand communications be handled then it is fine...just realize this form will cause substantial delays that could be averted by you. Seems easier on all involved if we just communicate directly with the exception of emergencies involving the children. Wouldn't you agree???"
Rin - agree with you completely, but just trying to cover the legal bases here as well. I will not lose what I have worked so hard to build up so far, and if "some" communication is necessary to do that then I will.
Not opening up her emails which are not titled "emergency". Perhaps CJ should include in the note that if she chooses to email this difficult way that any real emergency regarding the kids should include the term "911" or "emergency" in the subject line. Eph will open and read such emails as long as such method is not abused for non-emergency matters.
CJ could just respond to emails as though she were you. You could give her access to a new yahoo or other email address and you/she could advise WW that that is the specific email address she is to utilize only. If it's an emergency...she is again advised to text message you directly...which will mean all emails can get a delayed response sufficient for you and CJ to work together to make certain all emails are handled.
WW believes she is communicating with you....but she's not. There is nothing unreasonable about making her use a specific email address for non-emergency matters.
Sheesh - now she just sent me a TM asking to talk to the kids tonight and when it was convenient for them to call her.
Funny thing is anytime I ask the kids if they want to call mommy the both say "No," and run away when I bring the phone to them.
So I guess I really need to nip this communication issue in the bud ASAP.
Forward this text message to CJ and have her text her back and indicate a simple "yes"...
OR
Indicate by an email through you from CJ stating something to the effect that there is no reason to text message Eph for any non-emergency matters such as asking him to have the kids call you as you did today. He ALWAYS has had the kids call you even when they do not want to. You know this but yet delibertly text messaged him in an attempt to circumvent/frustrate the established reasonable means of communications. This is the exact type of communication that disrupts and futher subjects Eph to emotional turmoil during his time with the children that we hope to avoid by utilizing communication through me. In accordance with the established practice, from now on...Eph will attempt to have the children call you EVERY night between the hours of 7 - 9 pm on your cell phone when he has the children. The same courtesy is expected in return. (CJ can come up with the rest).
You could even set the time a little more rigidly to avoid any more attempts to communicate unnecessarily about this issue. Each issue she utilizes must thereafter be closed to discussion thereafter. If she continues to push resolved issues it can be used to demonstrate her continued frustrating the established process and custom and demonstrate HER inability to cooperate and coparent effectively. (maybe CJ can say something to this effect..."Co-parenting is a two way street. Your continued, unneccessary and abusive use of unagreed to forms of communication for innocuous matters is disrupting the quite reasonable and effective methods of communication we have set out. Incessant emailing, texting and calling whatever YOU want is not necessary for effective co-parenting and is frankly not an option. If you have an better option for you and I to communicate so Eph and his children can enjoy their family time in peace I'd be happy to discuss it with you. My phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx."
If it helps, I started with specific times the kids would call Drac or that they were to call me. He has not held up his end on this.
I have a separate cell phone that he can call if he wants to talk to them. If they ask to call him, I always allow it
He doesn't do a good job of having the phone accessible when I call the kids, but o have chosen not to make an issue of that just yet. I think he's just trying to push my buttons and with it so early on Plan B I am choosing not to take the bait. As long as I get to talk to them sometime each day I am OK
It is, for me, a question of choosing my battles. You have a pretty big one on your hands. Good thing you are getting such great advise and CJ has your back!!
I hope you don't mind but I'm going to primarily respond here because as you know, other folks "read and learn" here too.
First, very politely you made a mistake replying to her at all. Please, before you ever reply to her IN ANY WAY, at least come on here to MB to get some wise council--folks can talk a little sense to ya. The mistake that you made was not so much in "what" you said...as in the fact that the message sent to WW is "push this button and you will get a response out of him." Especially if you consider WHAT she wrote, it really requires no response from you other than maybe to resend the PBL...maybe. The message you want to communicate to the WS is that you have set this boundary and you will not cross it unless there is blood or fire. The WS's tactic is going to be: "I know what pushes his or her buttons and what they are afraid of...I'm going push those buttons until I get a response." Sooooo..do not respond, Eph. STAY DARK!! Meanwhile live and learn and let's move forward, okay?
Next, let me tell you what to expect. Every WS is different in their delivery, and yet as I'm sure you've noticed by now, in many ways WS's are the same. Sometimes, I swear...it's as if they have a Wayward Handbook!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, here's what you can expect. Some WS's immediately start with a BARRAGE of calls, emails, and TM's trying to get the BS to crack. Others, like your WW, are more subtle. She is NOT liking the fact that she no longer has you under her control, but rather than respond like a blazing star that quickly burns out, she is choosing to take the manipulative route, poking one-by-one each of your buttons until you break. This is a slower, more methodical way -- vs. the "burn until I scare them into compliance" way. So you can expect your WW to keep trying legal maneuvers (but you've already got that covered), personal attacks, little threats, and veiled attempts to contact directly...sometimes THROUGH others (such as "telling on you" to your pastor that you won't talk to her).
Eph, it is vitally important that you see her attempts for what they are: ATTEMPTS TO RE-ENGAGE YOU AND CONTINUE HAVING HER NEEDS MET. At this point, I think the main EN you meet (in a weird way) is that if life is unhappy and you are around, it must be you--whereas if you are really out of her life and she's still unhappy who's she going to blame her unhappiness on?? Since you did respond to her today, and especially since you included that snide little comment about having mom and dad stay together ..."are you ready to do what it takes to do that?" she now has met her need. She can stew about how mean you are all night now and blame you for everything. See?? So don't give the drug addict the drug that she is so desperately trying to get from you!!
Here is a reality check for you. You have offered her THREE REASONABLE methods of communication that do not involve directly speaking to her: via intermediary CJ, via intermediary at kid exchange location, and via the Notebook. You have offered to listen to her suggestions of someone else for intermediary and/or kid exchange location. You have offered to bring the kids to the driveway and drop them at her house with the Notebook going back and forth with the kids. You have made offer after offer, and her only response has been refusal to even discuss it or consider it. She won't make suggestions. She won't use the Notebook. She won't use intermediaries. She won't co-parent in any way!! That's her decision. She can choose to have a temper tantrum rather than co-parent, and you can't stop her -OR- make her cooperate. What you CAN do is use your resources and document how you are making emotionally and personally HEALTHY choices, offering her reasonable options, and being cooperative and including her (when you do not need to according to the court order!)--and HER response has been unhealthy, demanding, unreasonable, uncooperative and dismissive of respecting you! I have plenty of written documentation of OUR attempts to co-parent with her...what documentation does she have of her attempts to deal with you as equal parent? NONE!
So in summary...do not respond to her again. Do not allow her to suck you in like this. When she does try to email, call, or TM...say a prayer or meditate...and send it to me or your kid exchange person. You don't need to discuss, "what time are the kids calling me?"...IGNORE stuff like that because no response is warranted. Just have the kids call AT THE NORMAL TIME (consistency..see??). You just do not need to respond to her every Wayward demand for attention...okay??
Finally...I can't say this enough...DOCUMENT. Write this in your daily calendar, using a factual, business-like statement. If she gets NO response from you, and the ONLY way she'll get a response is through me or kid exchange person or Notebook, then EVENTUALLY she will have to use one of us, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
STAY DARK!!!!! You are using your thoughts, time and energy thinking about her and her silly little WS attempts to break Plan B. You HOLD FIRM and use your thoughts, time and energy working on peace and tranquility for Eph.
If you have to, turn your cell off, take the phone off the hook, and turn off your computer. You do not "have to" be online ya know. If those things that are supposed to be useful tools are harming you...unplug them!
1. He said above he didn't send that email response. He said he saved it in draft form only.
2. I know I got carried away above (always looking for angles) but I hope you like the idea of her gettin' stuck corresponding with you via forwards through Eph's email account. Either that or request she utilize a new email address for Eph (so he can look at non-urgent matters supposedly when he chooses and not every time he logs in for work) which unbeknownst to her, Eph doesn't even have to look at ever...maybe [email]Imaplanbstud@gmail.com.[/email] Up until the court hearing she never needs to know Eph didn't read them at all.
Whatever...be creative and get Eph dark. Y'all have more experience at this than me.
IF setting up a new email address is an favorable idea (one that CJ monitors and Eph doesn't even have to look at)...perhaps instead of asking her to use the new address maybe TELLING her.
Let her know that she is no longer to email Eph at his primary (personal and/or business) email address and her address has been blocked. From now on she is to use the imaplanbstud@gmail.com email address, if she chooses, for any and all non-emergency matters involving the children which Eph and/or any person of his choosing will monitor on a daily basis.
Then...at least until the hearing...CJ could forward the emails from Eph's account to her intermediary email account then reply to Eph's account then forward from Eph's account right back to WW. At least until the custody hearing this may give WW (and her attorney) the impression that Eph is reading her emails and forwarding them himself (which may meet some little need of hers) when, in fact, Eph is completely out of the loop.
something like that...I'm making things so complicated but this is just another reasonable alternative that WW will likely blow a fuse over which you get to document...again.
These folks are dead on! Listen very closely! As you know, I have had to do what you are doing. I know how hard it is. I know the fear that if I didnt do as she asked, then I might lose my kids.
You arent going to lose your kids. You have primary custody right now. You have a great home...they are getting all that they need. You have fascilitated interactions with your WW in order for her to get her visitation time. You have come up with acceptable ways to co-parent. The GAL has agreed. Your attorney is onboard. You have a world renowned expert (Dr. Harley) behind you all the way.
What does she have??
In front of a judge, the two of you are strangers to him. He has no idea who is telling the truth. What he will have to go off of is the testimony, your demeanor, her demeanor. He will have to look over any factual evidence provided. And he will take the information from experts (counselors, the GAL, etc). Then he will formulate his decision.
In your case, you have remained with the children throughout. You did not leave, nor break up their family. You have sought counseling, and even reconciliation (which is i nthe best interests of the children). You have engaged your WW in appropriate ways and have not shown any kind of abusive behavior. You have interacted with your attorney. You have kept the GAL up to speed on things.
What has your WW done? Has she sought counseling? Nope. Has she tried to work on saving the family? Nope. Has she kept the GAL informed of what has been going on? Nope. Has she been there for the children during all of this? Nope. Has she offered constructive alternatives in order to co-parent the children? Nope.
And all of this will have been documented by you. And by keeping the GAL informed, she will also document. What will your wife have? Nothing!!
Want to know something? Right after my wife moved out the first time, she had come over to take the kids for a night (we had not gone to court yet...so I was allowing her to take them on a Friday or Saturday night for an overnighter). While at our house, she began to go off on me in front of the kids. I was already hurting pretty badly from all of this. Added to that, I had noticed that the kids had begun to settle done in our house after all of the turmoil...it had become a safe place. And then, here is my wife causing all of this in our house...our safe place.
I wanted her out. So, I grabbed her by the shoulders (kind of like a bouncer does) a began escorting her out of the house. At one point, at the front door, she turned quickly. I thought she was trying to hit me. So, I pushed back against her in order to create some distance. Well ,she tripped and fell, skinning her knees.
Next thing I know...I am in the back of a police car. And all I could think during all of this was here I was back from war, some guy has talked my wife into leaving...and now I may have screwed up completely and lost my kids.
Did I lose them? Nope. Was what happened a factor in court? Sure. But the overwhelming evidence was that I was a great Dad, that I was doing my very best to look out for them...and she wasnt. The incident I just told you about was an interaction between her in me. And that incident actually bolstered my Plan B in the judge's eyes...because I looked like the responsible one by making sure we co-parented in a way that didnt allow for those kinds of incidences.
Now, for the record, the charges against me were eventually dismissed. But, it was that event that woke me up and made me realize that if I continued to let my wife call the shots and manipulate me...and destroy everything around her...then only bad things would happen. Maybe not violent things. But no good would come from continuing on the path we were on.
So, again...your first responsibility is to trust the Lord. He has your back! If you miss something, or screw something up, he will turn it to your advantage (as that incident was turned into making me look good because I found a way to have us interact without conflict). Trust Him!
Second, trust in what your doing here. You have a great plan. Sure, it will have to be adjusted slightly at times. Maybe email doesnt work. Maybe it is too easy for her to just shut down communications and make you look like the bad guy. So, maybe an adjustment to text messages...whatever. Maybe you buy a prepaid phone, give that number to your wife and let her know that you feel the better way to communicate with you is via text messages on that phone. Then, ship the phone to CJ and let her answer the text messages.
This is a play on what Mr. W stated above via emails. Emails are actually better because you can keep a record. If you use text messages, then forward all that you send or you receive to your email account for storage.
CJ stated it above...the BIGGEST thing you need to do is document EVERYTHING! Your WW will not do this. So, when in court, she will say:
WW: "In Juvember, Eph sent an email to me stating I couldnt talk to the kids."
Judge: "Do you have a copy of that email?"
WW: "No. But he did send it."
Your attorney: "What day was that?"
WW: "I am not sure. Maybe Juvember 32nd. Yeah, that was it. He had the kids that day, and I was at work."
Your attorney (as he pulls out your journal: "Let me see, Juvember 32nd. It states here that this was a Thursday, which was your day to have the kids. But you are stating that he had the kids?"
WW: "Well, I might have the date wrong..."
Your attorney: "Your Honor, I have copies of all of the emails between Mr. and Mrs. Eph, as well as a detailed journal that Mr. Eph has written over this time, documenting child parenting issues. I would like to submit this into evidence."
Judge: "Mrs. Eph, do you have any kind of documentation that would verify your claims?"
WW: "No, your Honor."
Do you see what I mean, Eph?? You are in control. She has NO IDEA what she is doing. She has no plan. She doesnt even have Jesus right now. She is on her own, flying solo.
Trust the Lord. Trust your plan. Come here and vent or receive guidance. Rest. Stay dark. The storm will pass.
One more thing...your PBL was fine. I am not saying you NEED to change anything at this point. What I am saying is that adjustments can be made as you go along. Not because she wants them. But because you find it better for you and the kids.
Wow, what great responses from everyone. I don't know what else to say except "Thanks."
(((((MB Support Group)))))
So where do I start?
Rin - I am already laying in the net - the net of God's loving arms around me, the net of all the MB supporters here.
CJ - as Mr. W noted no reply was made to WW. I typed up a response and posted it here. I am as dark as a black hole - her communications come in and nothing comes out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mr. W - To the scheming, I like the idea of a new e-mail address. I'd like to avoid anything that refers to MB principles in the event that causes her to come snooping around here. I'll come up with something different, but the idea will remain the same.
I sent this e-mail to my lawyer to get his input - still trying to have him cover the legal bases:
Quote
Got this e-mail from Mrs. Eph525 – once again disrespecting a healthy boundary I have tried to establish. That’s another story all together.
Any way, my proposal remains this:
Based on her deceitful and hurtful remarks in my past attempts to communicate with her, and until she can show that she is able to communicate without those, I would prefer that all communications not done via the notebook be done through a third parry who will be able to filter out any unessential and unnecessary information. This does not mean I do not want to communicate with her, it means I am not going to allow her to manipulate the situation.
When she has shown an ability to communicate better, then perhaps more direct methods can be employed.
Your thoughts? Thanks, Eph525
His reply was:
Quote
I think you are hurting yourself having a third party to communicate for you. You are going to be parents for the rest of your lives and you are going to have to communicate occasionally. I think e-mail from her on non urgent matters is fine.
Based on that, let's roll with this e-mail scheme.
CJ - you've got mail with the new e-mail address and necessary info. I'm gonna forward her e-mails to my work and primary personal e-mail address to this new one.
No TMs, no direct phone calls.
Should I type up a reply to send to her or should that be done by CJ (in light of my attorney's response above)?
Why don't you type up roughly what you would like the response to be, and I will filter YOUR stuff same as I filter HER stuff for hurtful remarks, unnecessary stuff, etc.
You and I can work well together...it's the Mrs. who can't.
Also, regarding your lawyer's response, remember that the goal is and always has been about a two week-one month period to get her to disentangle from you and you from her. The idea is that by disentangling and eliminating all those little hurtful remarks, you won't be hurt further and neither will the M. Without those hurts, she may start to remember "the good days" and Plan A.... So disentangle for a period and then some "business-like" co-parenting communication could probably take place like via email.
For those interested, here is what I sent CJ. Not sure how much she will edit it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Quote
WW,
I agree it's in the best interests of our children that we communicate directly. It's also in their best interests to have their mother and father together in the home. Are you ready to do what it takes to do both? The steps are specified in the letter I gave you and there are still slots open for the Marriage Builders Weekend in Orlando on October 26 and 27. Just say the word and I will take care of everything. We have everything to lose and everything to gain.
You have demonstrated an unwillingness to use CJ as an intermediary and by calling me, sending e-mails and text messages, you continue to break the boundaries I set regarding communications. I have offered several solutions to this, but you have rejected them all and have been unwilling to compromise by offering your own suggestions.
As I see it, it is you who is "complicating our ability to communicate." Based on your deceitful and hurtful remarks in my past attempts to communicate with you, and until you can show that you are able to communicate without those, I would prefer that all communications regarding the kids be done primarily via the notebook. However, if we feel some non-urgent issues needs to be address in a more timely fashion, we can use this e-mail address to convey those. Please do not use any of my other e-mail addresses as this would result in delays in getting a response.
Regarding talking on the phone to the kids - I always ask the kids if they want to talk to you and it is typical that they say no and run away. You have heard this yourself before as I chased them around the house while I was on the phone with you. I will make reasonable attempts to have them call you around 8pm, but know that I will not chase them around and force them to talk. It's so much simpler to be able to talk to them face to face whenever you want.
The kids and I pray for you every night and we hope to see you home soon.
OK, I am going dark on you all here for a few days while I enjoy my vacation with my kids. Talk to you all on Friday.
Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Yeah--I think I'm going to pray about it and think on it for a day or so before I even try to send that response!
Is it just me, or does anyone else see a little DJ leaking in here and there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
It's okay, Eph...this is why you needed Plan B. The facts of what you say are true. It IS in the best interests of children for their parents to be together and in love, and for their parents to guard themselves against the temptations of an A...but the way it's communicated here is not that "business-like" disentanglement I was talking about earlier. This still sounds pretty emotionally tangled to me!
Sooooo...good plan! Take a few days off with your kids. Have some fun with them. Unplug the computer, don't check your emails, and take your phone off the hook! ENJOY!!
"if you feel some non-urgent issues needs to be address in a more timely fashion, we can use this e-mail address to convey those. Please do not use any of my other e-mail addresses as this would result in delays in getting a response.
I will make reasonable attempts to have them call you around 8pm, but know that I will not chase them around and force them to talk."
"You have demonstrated an unwilling to use CJ as an intermediary and by calling me, sending e-mails and text messages, you continue to break the boundaries I set regarding communications. I have offered several solutions to this, but you have rejected them all and have been unwilling to compromise by offering your own suggestions.
As I see it, it is you who is "complicating our ability to communicate." Based on your deceitful and hurtful remarks in my past attempts to communicate with you, and until you can show that you are able to communicate without those, I would prefer that all communications regarding the kids be done primarily via the notebook."
I agree with CJ. This is waaaayyyy too long and involved. Remember, you are in Plan B now. Which means, any communications between you and her should be business-like. Straight-forward. No emotion involved.
Try writing that letter, as if you were writing it for me to give my wife. Take the emotion out of it.
Also, I think that it should be you that sends it. With the new email address, just email the new, adjusted terms. That way, it will kick off the Mr. W email scheme. As he said, she need not know that you wont be reading the emails directly. And you will be able to maintain NC and to heal.
"Please use this email address only for non-urgent matters. If you want to speak to the kids you can call around 8pm each day to see if they're willing to talk."
Anyone remember the really short, short version of the wedding at the end of the movie Spaceballs?
This is my really, really short version:
Quote
We will use this e-mail address if you feel some non-urgent issues needs to be addressed in a more timely fashion. Please do not use any of my other e-mail addresses as this would result in delays in getting a response.
I will make reasonable attempts to have the kids call you around 8pm, but know that I will not force them if they refuse.
Still 3 sentences <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I like the revised version, Eph. Good job coming to MB FIRST. I composed so many emails that were saved as drafts and never sent it was silly. Good thing I never sent them, too; so many LB's it would make your head spin.
Why not follow princessmeggy's solution, and have WW call the kids at 8PM nightly, or whatever days she wants to speak to them. If they refuse, so be it. PWC called DS every night that he was not with him at 8PM. If DS wanted to talk, he did, if DS didn't want to talk, the phone would go to voicemail. The kids should not be responsible for the initial contact; that is asking too much of them.
Very good job, Eph! I think you're beginning to get the hang of this a little. In your HEART you may think and feel the big, longer response, but in Plan B you learn to react as if she were the mailman.
Your shortened version is very good!! Factual. Brief. Business-like. EXCELLENT JOB!
(The little birdie I pushed out of the nest is learning to fly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> )
WW sent me another TM at about 7:30 regarding talking to the kids. We were eating, then did some shopping afterwards.
Still disrespecting my boundaries.
I dialed her number about 9:30 and the kids talked for about 15 mins.
CJ - well I knocked my head on a few branches on the the way down but I guess I am getting the hang of it. I just spread my wings and fly and let the wind (God and you guys here) carry me.
Oddly enough, people who don't respect boundaries are very surprised when boundaries are enforced. It takes some time for them to realize that the rules have changed. But your wife is a big girl, and she will figure it out. You are doing well.
You're doing fine. You are a good man, a good husband, and a good father. I still have hope for your marriage. But if you end up divorced, you will do just fine.
Why not follow princessmeggy's solution, and have WW call the kids at 8PM nightly, or whatever days she wants to speak to them. If they refuse, so be it. PWC called DS every night that he was not with him at 8PM. If DS wanted to talk, he did, if DS didn't want to talk, the phone would go to voicemail. The kids should not be responsible for the initial contact; that is asking too much of them.
If she keeps using this phone call as an excuse to Text message, email and call you just address the issue concisesly with the above requirement. She can call the kids on your cell phone or home phone, whatever, every night that they are with you between the time of 8:30 and 8:45 pm. Other than that and from then forward...you don't have to answer or respond to any of her text messages at all. You have been clear and concise. Phone rings...you tell kids it's their mother calling and hand them the ringing phone. If they refuse to answer document the same (but docuument also that you tried and sometimes actually made them talk to her so you can defend your actions with the court and GAL and when the inevitable threatening email comes CJ can defend you). Of course, it is also advisable for you to have them call her every once in awhile on your own for good credit but her SCHEDULED call is at the set time. Take it or leave it....no other discussion necessary.
You may think all this adjusting of your boundaries from the Plan B letter is troublesome. It's not really. Every battle plan requires some minor adjustments. On the upside, you can demonstrate to the GAL your flexibility, adaptability and concern for the kids over your interests in focusing on YOUR boundaries (the court could care less about YOUR boundaries). Played right...it's a winning issue for you AND you will get peace, eventually AND defeat their arguments you are unreasonable. I'm thinking all Plan B'ing BH's with custody issues should utilize a flexible and adapting Plan B...whereby the flicker out for a week or two instead of going dark in one dramatic swipe. They need to anticipate this and realize the strategies within it. From what I've read...it shouldn't be too long before she goes into the typical WS, "so you wanna go dark...well, I'll just act happy about it, go dark myself and show you". Then...it's agreed to silience and she can't claim otherwise in court.
As far as school...discuss it with your attorney and even the GAL. It's August now...time to enroll them. You wouldn't be a good primary custodial parent if you didn't. I almost think the discussion you did have with WW could be considered or "painted" a bit to have been more along the lines of you telling WW what you are doing rather than seeking her consent and approval. Why would you NEED to do that when you are the primary parent. Of course you discussed it with her but the decision was already made.
Most phone services allow for you to add a second line with a distinctive ring. I had Verizon for the home line, and I added a second line for just a few more dollars a month. And it was worth it. When the regular home number rang, it was different from the new, kids' line. The kids' line would ring twice, where the traditional line only once.
I sat the kids down and told them when they hear that ring, it is either their mother or their grandparents calling. And unless they are in bed, or otherwise engaged, they must answer it. I did not leave it up to them to decide if they wanted to talk to their mother or not. She is their mother, and if she wants to or needs to talk to the kids, then it is not for them to say "no" or to question.
Now, if it is 10:30pm and the kids are in bed, then I would not allow the line to be answered (I actually turned the ringer down). That way, she could just go to voicemail.
And the judge liked this. I had healthy boundaries, but also made sure that their mother had every evenue available to her to keep in touch with our children. And the beauty of it was...I never had to talk to her!!! I would hear the distinctive ring, see the kids were answering the phone...and conveniently excuse myself to the Throne Room (e.g. bathroom) so that I could not be tricked into getting on the line. The kids would talk to her, and then if she told them that she wanted to talk to me...they would just TRUTHFULLY tell her "Mom, Dad's in the bathroom."
So, if I were you, I would seriously consider having that second line. It would be a number no one would know, except who you give it to. And it would only be for the kids!!
This also helped in documenting the facts of when my wife would call. Once things settled down, even though she demanded to talk to them everyday...after a few weeks, she would go 2-3 days without talking to them. Of course, I documented this. And that, for her, did not go over well in court either!!
Mr. W is correct! Plan B with kids, especially when the BS has custody, is a tricky thing. You have to make these minor adjustments all of the time. The key thing is that you will need to think ahead of your WW. What do I mean?
Well, let's say there is a school recital coming up. You have the kids, but know that your wife will be coming. How you gonna keep her from coming around you or talking to you? Simple! You get there early. Now, most people would say to find an aisle seat, and have the kids next to you so she wont sit next to you. That's okay...but an even better thing to do is to find mutal friends who are there. Have them sit in the aisle. Then you sit next to them, with the kids on the other side of you. If you can, make sure there are more people on the other side of the kids, so that she will have to sit in another row (also try to make sure she cant sit right behind you or in front of you. So, it might be good if you are sitting in the first or last row.
Then, once the event is over, you strike up a conversation with your friends while the kids hug Mom goodbye. Once you are ready to leave, look for the opportunity where your wife is no longer talking to the kids or is talking to someone else, and wisk the kids out the door (which is why the back row is preferable!!) and to the car. If during the event, your wife starts asking the kids "is Dad taking you out for ice cream afterwards," make sure you have not made any promises to the kids that they would relay to Mom. You dont want them lying or covering up things to her. So, dont tell them. Once you get to the car, you can then SURPRISE them by saying "hey...we're going out for ice cream on the way home."
Do you see the depth of planning here, just for a simple event like this? Sure, it isnt easy. But it is simple. And you are going to have to do this in almost everything that might involve your wife. Make sure you try to think thru all contingencies. If your wife does get to you and tries to talk to you, what will you say? What will you do? In that case, I handled it this way...I said nothing. I just sort of stared at the ground until she left me alone. Your mileage may vary...so make adjustments as needed.
You are doing fine. And I have no doubt that she will cause some failures in your Plan B. With kids involved, it is hard to stay entirely dark. But, if she does break thru, just shut things down again and move forward.
I like the ideas about the phone numbers. I use Vonage, and its only a few bucks to add a virtual line that could be for the kids. But, being the techno-geek that I am, I have a nice phone system that enables be to do distinctive rings on the handset. I think I'll go for the cheaper method for the moment as it gives the same result.
I also like the idea of forcing her to call them rather than me having to call her and "make" the kids talk to her. Mortarman, thanks for sharing your experience in handling that.
Regarding school - still working on that. Trying to get DS switched to a school in a different area is proving to be a headache. The principal of the target school had to deny my request right at the get go because we do not already live in the target area (this is where I want to move to once the house sells - it's only about 5 miles from where we live now and no further away from WW). I have to appeal the decision, and the the person to whom I have to appeal to has been trading voice messages with me the last few days.
Vacation is fun - we spent the day at the water park today and we are all exhausted. Tomorrow we hit the aquarium and then it's "on the road again" to head back home. I kinda thought Atlanta would be a trigger for me, but we have been so busy that really this has been the first time I thought about it.
Kids will be tired this weekend, of this I am sure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
BTW - CJ, you getting any of my e-mails? we could call this plan E, but that might confuse people. How about operation "Black Hole" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Another day, another way for WW to try to break my plan B.
The exchange went off (mostly) without a hitch tonight. I kept the car between myself and WW's house, got the kids out, hugged and kissed them, and sent them on with the backpack containing the notebook, one toy, and the kids medicines. Caught a glimpse of her out of the corner of my eye while making sure she had the kids, then drove off.
It was short lived.
Not 5 mins later my cell rings - it's her - and I let it go to voice mail. I waited til I was calm and listened to it (just in case it was an emergency) - She wants to let me know I forgot some of the kids meds - not a life/death situation that warrants a call. Once again disrespecting my boundaries.
Oh this is rather easy. It's a little like training a dog. Make using the email pleasant and fast--make calling and every other attempt slow and painful.
If she calls your cell and leaves a VM do not listen to it. Wait until you can get to someone (exchange person or I) who can listen to it. The wait alone on that could take a whole day!! DO NOT LISTEN!!
Next, do not respond to this voicemail other than to leave the meds in her mailbox or at her front door where she can't miss them.
I think every time that she calls, TMS, etc. she expects you to jump or respond in some way. If you IGNORE HER and/or just bring the meds over but don't call or write--she doesn't get her "fix."
Finally, DOCUMENT!!! Document every single time she has disrespected your request. You can not MAKE HER respect your request, but you can change you. Stop responding to her...at all...ever. Then you can go to court and say, "Your honor, she chose to move out and move on and I have respected her ability to make that choice. However, in asking for the same respect from her to let me move on and develop healthy personal boundaries, she has ignored my request by contacting me 265 times in 100 days!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />" Then you produce the emails, call records, and TM's with disrespectful, spiteful communication.
I know...I know. It's hard to stay silent and sit and do nothing. You are USED to jumping when she says jump. But it is conceivable that once you stop jumping eventually she will tire of trying if you are not responding at all. It's like poking a frog that never jumps! Eventually you move to another frog.
have to go back and check, but I believe it was Mortarman who suggested answering the phone and asking "Is this an emergency? Otherwise use the e-mail" could be appropriate. But I could see how she might twist that as well.
Can I just pop her on the nose with a rolled up newspaper <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Can I just pop her on the nose with a rolled up newspaper
I would be more than happy to come over and "POP her one" for you!! LOL!!
You are sounding good, my friend! Boy, I don't know which of our sitch's is harder. Your WW continually trying to break Plan B or mine with Drac not even really trying! None of it is fun, is it?
Today finds me ready to get the heck outta Dodge and into MY own house far away. I know things will settle down a lot for me when I am out of this house, so I am looking forward to that.
I can't say enough how blessed you are to have our Mama Bee watching over you! Stick with CJ and you are going to be just fine.
Oh, and document, document, document! You are building a case that will be undeniable!!
Have a great day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />