I know this will fly in the face of all MBer's pricipals for recovery and I am prepared for the 2x4's but here goes...

My WW has recommitted to our marriage verbally, physically and emotionally as far as I can tell. She has been saying and doing all the right things.

She tells me she does not want the OM anymore in "that" way. She has told me all kinds of things about him that bug her. She told me about things he did that made her dislike him. She realized the reason she wanted him was because he was always making her jealous flaunting other women who were attracted to him. She says she will not be intimate with him ever again and that I am the only person she ever wants to be with for the rest of our lives.

She apologized for her A. She is telling me about her new dreams for us and our 2nd chance and how she wants us to live together to our full potential. She tells me how much she wants me and our marriage and our family. We have amazing SF lately, like it used to be vs only 6 times in 6 months during the A. Last night she looked at me with the loving eyes I used to see from her.

I have snooped and found no evidence to the contrary. She shows me her text messages. I don't have her email password yet but thats my next request.

So the kicker is she is still talking to and meeting him for a lunch occasionally. She is honest about it as far as I can tell and hasn't had any time that is unaccounted for. We are watching Dr. Harleys DVD with his 10 rules for a great marriage and are embracing them with all the gusto that a recovering marriage should have.

I know everyone here will be offended by this and will be hitting me over the head as naive and stupid but I almost think this is better because she has come out of the fog, realized her addiction and the reasons for it and instead of overwhelming feelings for him she is centered and knows what she wants: her 17 year marriage and family.

I know the posts I will get about being naive and stupid but can anyone post about the OP becoming a friend?

I'm sorry but it's impossible.

The MB path to recovery is very narrow.

Deviations will only lead to further misery,

for BOTH of you.


Question: Do YOU really want her to keep this friendship??

Mr. Wondering

~emphasis mine

Nope, she has NOT come out of the fog or "realized" her addiction...As long as she continues contact with OM the affair CONTINUES and you are NOT in recovery...Dr. Harley says that there will FOREVER remain a low burning flame for the OP and it can be easily reignited at anytime...SHE IS PLAYING WITH FIRE...The outcome is that YOU will get burned over and over again...She MUST accept her vunerability to her addiction and act accordingly (NC) if your marriage is to recover...NO CONTACT IS THE CORNERSTONE TO RECOVERY...Without NC, there is NO recovery...


Friends can become lovers, but lovers can never become friends...

Mrs. W

According to the Harleys, and to basic common sense, she must end all contact with the other man forever.

Anything less is an affair waiting to happen.

I would also be suspicious that you aren't being duped, no matter how good your intel is.

All the best,
Gimble

Yes, we can. We have several affairs that turned into LONG TERM affairs lasting 4, 5, and 10 years because the affairees remained "friends." Recovery is impossible until all contact ends because WITHDRAWAL never happens, bigpicture. That is about like expecting an alcholic to sober up without stopping drinking. Can't happen. Ain't gonna happen.

This affair is not over until all contact ends.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

No 2x4 from me, just pity because I know what your future holds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You would have to be totally out of your mind to accept this. She humiliated, betrayed and totally disrespect you with this man and now she say she still stays in contact with him and has lunches with him just as friends. If the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would be as accepting?

Surely she must know how painful and humiliating it is to you to know that she continues to be in contact with this man. The fact that she continues this behavior says a great deal.
You would have to be a masochist to accept this. Open your eyes. This man continuously screwed your wife behind your back and you are fine with her seeing him as friends. You are a total fool to accept this and your wife is making you look like an idiot. I am sorry but down deep you know this is true and she would never accept this if the roles were reversed. Enough is enough. She is showing you total disrespect by this behavior. If you caught them in your bed would you still feel the same way? If you do not respect yourself then who will? Wake up!

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

Dr. Bill Harley:
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

continued at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...mber=3370182&an=0&page=0

bigpicture, I would also suggest that since he is only her "friend" now that all communications take place AT YOUR HOME with you, your W, and your kids present. YOU CAN *ALL* BE "FRIENDS!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<gulp>

bigpicture...you yourself are a little foggy if this sitch might be even a little bit ok with you.

There is just no way that you can get into true recovery with your WW still being in contact with OM. Are YOU ok with them being "friends"????

You said you are doing the MB stuff together...have you POJA'ed this arrangement?

In your heart, I believe you know this is not ok...not even a little bit ok.

Please read some more about NC...Mrs. W gave you some really great info, and coming from a FWW, I hope you take it to heart.

When your WW says that she doesn't even WANT to be friends, or have anything to do with OM, THEN you might get into recovery.

I thank God everyday that my FWH tells me this quite often. I hope your WW will pulls her head out soon and realizes the damage she has done and continues to do by staying in C with OM.

I'm so sorry for you....

LOL at Mel!

This is actually a great idea...I bet your WW would not be so excited to continue her "friendship" with OM if this was the stipulation!

Bigpicture-

Just one question: Is her friendship with the OM more important than recovering her M? IMHO this is a deal-breaker.

WOW - Agreement on MB - It must be a full moon.

Recovery is IMPOSSIBLE with continued contact.

Oh and just so you know, most people here will tell you as I will that continued contact such as you describe means the affair is still active and ongoing. She's hiding it better is all.

BP,

Logic check. I am not going to try and convince you are wrong. It makes no difference to me. You are about to find out some painful things. Please explain the logic of what you just posted.




Does this make sense to you? It does not to me. One of these statements represents a huge lie. Which one do you suspect is the lie. Clearly she does not want to be ONLY with you for the rest of your lives. She is eating meals with him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will end this by saying your marriage is still in big trouble and the reason for this is embodied in the following statement in your post.
So any man that fluants other women in her fact can make her jealous of them and FORCE her to have an affair. I have heard lame reasons for an affair but this takes the cake. But, I will tell you this you have not even begun recovery and good sex is NOT recovery.

God Bless YOU Bigpicture,

JL

DO NOT AGREE TO THIS COSY ARRANGEMENT

(Cosy for her that is......)

In addition,

I see you have 13 and 16 year old daughters.

They are certainly old enough to know the truth about their lives...including the inappropriate behavior of their mother and the ABUSE their mother is putting their father through.

Your daugthers need to see appropriate behaviors modelled by their parents which includes not only their mother repenting and turning away from her sinful adulterous behavior but ALSO a father/man that will not tolerate and endure continued abuse by his spouse. They NEED to see their father demand nothing less than a marriage of extraordinary care. They NEED to see you put up a strong boundary that you refuse, in due time (recovery DOES take time) to remain in a loveless marriage. Continued contact with OM is a NOT a demonstration of love nor of such extraordinary care and thus unacceptable.

Would you ADVISE your daughters to remain married and accept such circumstances????

Consider the lessons you are teaching them by accepting crumbs from your wife and not standing up for yourself and what is RIGHT. Plan and simple, your wife is teaching them entitled behavior and your enabling it teaches them that men are weak and women have the right to abuse them if they so choose.

Further...girls tend to seek out and marry men just like their daddy's. What kind of self-respecting man do you want your daughters to marry???

If you haven't already, your daugthers should be told about your wife's behavior in an age appropriate manner. There are threads on MB discussing the same and/or we could discuss doing so herein.

What say you???

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I am not berating or picking on you. I completely understand what you've been through and firmly believe your willingness to consider this arrangement is a direct result of the trauma your wife has put you through. You are not thinking clearly and trying to save your marriage and likely your family through whatever negotiated terms you can. It is noble but falling on the sword will not save you and, in the end, you'll lose despite this valliant attempt at acquiescing. You just CAN'T sell your soul to the devil. We here at MB, in unity, are pulling for you to pull up your britches and right this ship. You can't negotiate with a terrorist. The taking will never end and the costs are too high. No Contact is the ONLY way.

I actually tried this same junk. My PA had ended with OM and we were in the middle of a music project. I had not admitted anything to my DH and so we both tried to just be "friends" to the extent that I had the guy over to our HOME and tried to make him and DH be FRIENDS as well. (God, that is so hard to type...I want to hurl). It is one of the things that now hurts my BH the absolute worst..."how could you bring that pos into our home?" There is no grey area here. Absolutely none. Fast forward 4 months and OM had been gone for 3 months and all of a sudden he is emailing me telling me how much he loves me, etc- even though he knows my H knows what happened between us. Sound like anything anybody would receive from "just a friend?"

No...no way...no how!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll not bother to add anything to what the other members have written because it's obvious that you "know better than everyone else and prefer to learn the hard way."

Stupid would be another way to describe enablement of an ongoing affair, so why bother telling you what you already know?

Dumb, weak, and desperate to "hold onto" your wife by allowing her to do whatever she wants. All she has to do is TELL you what you want to hear.

No more time for this sort of nonsense.

Good luck. We'll see you when you come staggering back wondering "what the heck happened?!?! We were supposed to have been happily married?!?!"

And people worry about "trolls?" Real people are worse sometimes.

Knock Knock,
Can I enter the building? I was supposed to be gone, but a post like this MUST be answered.

This post should be ranked right up there as the number one reason why NC, forever, and for life is a rule that cannot be violated for any reason.

BP, you are being duped by your WW and OM at the same time. How sad, that you could actually buy into this. You think their A is over, because that is what they have both told you, but, nothing could be furthur from the truth.

Trust me, they are still boinking each other and have found a wonderful way to pull the wool over your ever so naive eyes.

This is a wonderful way for your WW to sit on the fence and have BOTH of you to forfill and meet her needs. How great it is for HER!

You don't need a 2x4, you need a bazooka to WAKE UP!

Keep on in this manner, and you can come back one day to tell us all how great you new life is after divorce.

All Blessings,
Jerry

JohnsTwin posted:

"Just one question: Is her friendship with the OM more important than recovering her M? IMHO this is a deal-breaker."

Just Learning posted:

"Clearly she does not want to be ONLY with you for the rest of your lives. She is eating meals with him."

So your WW claims she is devoted to you and your marriage now, that the OM supposedly is just a friend now, right?
But if your wife isn't willing to end a relationship with somebody who is supposedly just a friend then your marriage must not mean much to her then.

Either the OM means more to her than she admits and/or your marriage means less to her than she claims... So their 'friendship' is STILL so 'special' to her that it is as important to her as your marriage? If she had to choose between her 'friendship' with the OM and her marriage to you, would she give up the 'friendship' for the marriage?

BTW, she's trying to gaslight you into believing that a choice doesn't haev to be made. She has her heart set on BOTH and the more you hesitate before making it CLEAR that she has to make a choice, the more you are feeding her delusion that she can continue to cake-eat. You know what's even harder than competing with an OP? Try competing with the OM's best efforts PLUS your own best efforts combined vs yourself alone! That's one of the reasons why it is not advised to stay in Plan A too long. The WS doesn't simply get addicted ot the OP and the adultery, they also become quite hooked on having BOTH the OP and the BS around to meet their EN's. The longer cake-eating goes on, because the adultery hasn't been discovered yet, then because the BS delays exposure, then because the BS has to get their Plan A done, THEN because the BS is conned into false recoveries... the more addicted the WS gets to having it all. And the longer the WS gets to enjoy cake-eating, the less likely it is they will EVER settle for either just the OP or just their BS. Every single crumb of cake-eating gets the WS more addicted to cake-eating.

Going out to lunch alone with a man other than her husband is inappropriate enough in itself, even if it never led to anything even more inappropriate, even if it was with a man she had not already gotten into an inappropriate relationship with!

So basically she is asserting that in her opinion it's OK for her to spend time alone with a man other than her husband, going out to lunch with him, right? AND even with a man whom she had (has) an affair with, right?

Does either assertion sound like something a husband should agree to allow his wife to do?

Also, I see that your Plan B only lasted one day. What conditions and promises did you require of her before stopping Plan B? Wasn't no contact with the OM, including sending him a no contact letter, part of your Plan B letter?

She has not been away from him long enough to be through withdrawal and over the addiction yet. You are in a false recovery. You let her come back too soon and she is not yet ready to stop the adultery. IMHO you should return to Plan B if she does not stop all contact with him immediately. And don't be so quick to believe her the next time she wants you to end Plan B.

She's telling you whatever she thinks will convince you to allow her to cake-eat so she doesn't have to make a choice between you and the OM.

Even if she is 'only' talking to him and having lunch with him, even if it really never does go past that again, she is still getting some of her EN's met by him instead of by you. She may be careful (for now) to 'only' get her needs for conversation, friendship, attention... met by him - you know the needs that very few people would realize are inapporpriate to get from an OP instead of a spouse... but it is still an EA at the very least.

Here's something you might try:

In front of some other people (counselor, pastor, relatives, friends, OM's wife or girlfriend) bring up the subject of your wife going out to lunch with the OM still. Let her see how they react to it and whether or not they think it's acceptable.

Your wife is trying to gaslight you into accepting something utterly ridiculous! You need to stop discussing this with her in private, where she hopes to con you into compliance, and get some support from folks who will help you communicate to your wife that this is most certainly not something that can continue.

If that doesn't work to get her to see that what she is expecting is wrong then IMHO you should return to Plan B making sure that your Plan B letter clearly states that there can be NO contact with the OM. (And maybe you should even add that the whole going out to lunch with men other than you in general is not going to be allowed either?) While in Plan B make sure all communication attempts from your wife go to an intermediary and/or are in writing. That way you will have what she says as reconciliation agreements or promises in writing. You should not even consider breaking Plan B again until she puts it in writing that she agrees to end all contact and 'friendship' with the OM.

Dear BigPicture,
She just committed to you a couple weeks ago after you plan B'd her for a day--right?

She tells you she does not want to be intimate with him any more. But you mean physical intimacy. She is still sharing intimacy with him because they are still meeting privately. The affair is ongoing because their dance is still ongoing. Maybe it is physical as in SF, maybe it is emotional, but it is still ongoing.

You talk about him making her jealous by flaunting other women, how is that going to stop?

She is talking to you about the two of them, like you are a friend where she can share stuff about her relationship with him. And she can talk to him and then come home and share parts of it with you? She is able to do that, and you are able to accept that? This is not recovery, this is cake-eating. There is not other way to define this; it is cake eating.

Please think about this and ask her to write the NC letter and have no contact with him. Then, she has to have no contact and then you can work on your marriage.

My best to you.

If you want her password and access to anything else she is doing then purchase, WebWatchers. I did this and within 24 hours found out her 'secret' email account, her login & password. I warn you though to please be cautious because you may wind up learning alot more than you may want to know as I did. Also, be careful not to react with judgemental accusations if you find out the intimate details of their emails and how much they love each other etc... because if you think back when you were 'in love' you probably said alot of the same stuff to each other.

I can tell you from first hand experience that her eating lunch with this guy and talking to him is still an on-going affair. Maybe not sexually but emotionally. She is getting some of her needs from you & some from him.

As far as your question her being friends with him after the affair--Basically your what your asking is the equivalent of a person having a hemorrhoid surgically induced for the wonderful great feelings that hemorrhoids bring us.

Exactly. What do you think your WW's reaction to this would be? If it's just an innocent harmless friendship, as she insists, she should be happy to have the whole world know about it -- right?

And try this: Tell you WW you would like to join her and OM at one of their lunches. If it's just an innocent harmless friendship, she should be proud and happy to have her husband join in - right?

Dude, you are being played. I'm sorry this is happening to you, but there are many people here who can help.
Mulan

Yes, she is still having an affair with him be it physical and for sure emotional. If he is ***, then why is she still friends with him?

I would not believe one word of what she says.

And yet, invite yourself to one of their lunches. While you are there, ask him to quit seeing her ever again and quit boinking her. Have you told his wife and all the people at work or everyone they know about the boinking going on?

BP...

Your wife continuing to be "friends" with this OM would be like the U.S. getting chummy with Osama Bin Laden...

OM is a HUGE threat to the security of your marriage and family...Do NOT aid in your own demise, I beg you...

Mrs. W

Exactly!!!

How can you even consider such a propostion. I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous ... how do you stand up-right without a BACKBONE!!!

I just can't fathom accepting and rationalizing this level of ongoing of humiliation. Your D's look to you for strength and guideance ... great example you're setting for them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I agree myrev.

But, be careful...using words like ridiculous and referencing a backbone is likely to get you edited on MB today! Coddling is most assuredly the way to go.

If it gets edited, it gets edited.

You know that I primarily post to BH's and try to help those who are struggling with confidence, self-esteem, fear, etc. type issues. I admit to sometimes losing my patience when a BH just continues to allow their WW to humilate them over and over, as is the case here, and usually don't hesitate to bring the "wood".

Bigpicture admits to knowing that 2x4's are coming. He KNOWS that he's screwing up, and his WW is jerking him around, but he's trying to find a way to rationalize his WEAKNESS.

It is my opinion that a WW will not return, in most cases, to a weak H, so he can either "man up" now and give himself a shot at R or he might as well throw in the towel.

It may be tough for him to read what I wrote, but it won't be nearly as tough as reading his "Divorce Decree".

Here's a towel so you can wipe the blood off your head and I think there's a splinter sticking out at the top. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't think anyone *can* post about the OP becoming a friend because it just isn't a likely scenario and it really is a kind of "let's see how close I can be to the flames without getting singed while you watch, honey" thing.

My squick factor goes into overdrive at the idea of meeting up, sitting at a table, and eating with a guy who has "illegally" known me in the Biblical sense while my husband knows and expecting him to be accepting of it.

You know that even if they managed to be some sort of miracle exception to the policy of no contact that they are both going to be experiencing thoughts of what they have done and what they now know about each other.

How icky is that?

There really is no acceptable reason for your wife to do this nor for you to accept it.

Don't be a volunteer or enable your wife to take this knife and stab it into your marriage's heart.

bigpicture:

I think you're getting unanimous advice here.


Somewhere in there, I think Bill probably says something about NO CONTACT with the OM. That includes lunch dates. Seriously---if this guy is there to meet any of your wife's needs---it puts your marriage in extremely grave danger.

So don't do it. It's not a negotiable term of recovery. And many WS do exactly this, especially before the affair is truly over.

You won't find it on that DVD K - but it is on the infidelity DVD. NC is just the most basic fundamental of recovery......

Great suggestion from Mulan:

"And try this: Tell you WW you would like to join her and OM at one of their lunches. If it's just an innocent harmless friendship, she should be proud and happy to have her husband join in - right?"

Exactly!

No place at all for the OM as a 'friend' in your lives EVER!! It simply does not work ....... not once that I have ever seen here ........ Contact = affair it really is that simple.

Your wife is still in the affair ... that is the fact. I know this is not what you wanted to hear but it is the truth. SF or emotional right now, you can bet it WILL lead to SF sooner or later based on the previous history..... are you going to live on tender hooks until it does happen? maybe years? go through all of this again? all the while OM is involved in YOUR lives. Lets put your WW recovery aside for the moment ..... how can YOU recover from the hurt and betrayal with the OM sitting there .... month after month ...year after year?????????

Your WW is right now in this bargaining stage where she keeps you 'happy' with SF and telling you what you want to hear while doing more than likely exactly the same with the OM. Your WW is lying to you and herself.
What you are doing is falling for her continued lies, but you see SHE does not think she is a liar, she thinks it's all ok, a WW can rationalise ANYTHING .... I know I used to do it too.

your ww will not understand why you insist on no contact forever ... just accept that for now as she is in the fog of the affair still .... and of course SHE is happy ... SHE is getting all she wants from the two of you. Until she moves out of the fog which she cannot do until there is no contact permanently..... she will never be able to fully commit to you and the M. She will throw you bones to keep you quiet but thats all.

So in ans to your question, you now have the same ans from both BS as yourself and from FWW ..... IT WILL DESTROY YOUR M.... YOUR SELF RESPECT ...... YOUR FAMILY .... one way only ....

NO CONTACT FOREVER

all the best
AW

Echo Mulan...he is not a friend of your marriage!!

From a personal perspective...My FWH had many friends who were female. All of them would call our home and if I didn't answer the phone, before he hung up, he would put me on the phone for chit chat. I entertained these woemen in my home, I even scrapbooked some of their get togethers.

All but this one...the biggest heart break of my life. An old GF from back in the day who never ever got over him. He knew I disliked her from the get go. His other female friends disliked her as well. She was the one he had the EA with. If she had ever came out of the catacombs and called our home and spoke to me, well, she may have become one of the "chosen" as she put it. But, no she had to lurk and wait for my H to take an out of town job and start up again.
She only wanted him. If she really wanted to be his "friend" she would have been a real friend and she would have accepted the wife and life he chose.

She chose to live a life of what "might have been" And i do feel pity for her and how broken she must have been to throw away any chance she may have had of keeping in contact with a friend she felt more than friendship for.
You see, she contacted him after an elaboraste plan of gettin "in good" with his family. This is how she got his email and phone numbers. She called him with a "what's goin' on?" attitude. The EA lasted 3 months before my FWH could get shed of her. I found out a few months later.
It destroyed me at the time, and we are now 2 1/2 yrs later recovering beautifully. WW has got to know what a friend is and what a friend who wants to be lover is.

OM has got to be kicked to the curb, in no uncertain terms.
Grief to follow if he isn't.

On the offchance this was actually a serious suggestion can I just say that NO CONTACT means..... well...... NO CONTACT

That would be a fun game to play if it was "just a friend" but an affair partner? nope.

Well, of course I did not mean the three of them should learn to be pals and then all take a house by the sea together.

Anytime a WS starts spouting stuff like "he/she/it is just a friend, so there's no harm in my having lunch with them or doing anything else with them" --

and the BS is showing signs of swallowing this, which is what's happening here --

having the BS offer to join in *gives the BS a chance to see the look on the WS's face when the offer is made* and often wakes up BOTH of them to the fact that this is NOT a "harmless friendship" by any means.

The WS will be anything but enthusiastic. Their reaction will range from reluctant to offended to downright horrified, angry and defensive.

The BS will be forced to see this and might start coming out of his/her own fog.

Offering to join the WS and OP at their "harmless" activities throws a huge bucket of cold water on the whole thing.

Anytime a spouse starts talking about "a friend", the other spouse should immediately offer to join them and then watch the reaction. That will tell you right away what you're dealing with.

That's why I made the suggestion.
Mulan

Mulan,

It was a very good suggestion...from your perspective.

I've seen threads on this board questioning whether there is a difference between WH's and WW's and Mrs. W and I see this as one such difference.

If BigPicture (whom has obviously disappaeared) were to ask his WW your suggested question she MAY just agree to it and attempt to pull it off.

Whereas a WH would NEVER agree to such terms and may react as you indicated about, a WW, well that's a different animal. The manipulation foglight turns on in their brain and they start considering how they could pull this off. To them this could be considered a workable negotiated framework within which they get to keep contact with their addiction.

In addition, they may just call the BH's bluff and say "OK" even if they have no intent on following through with it. Women are much more canny at twarting such ruse than men. They flip the tables on the BH to again, make him the bad guy when he refuses to actual follow through with it.

Consider what happens if BigPicture's WW were to say "OK" to such an outrageous proposition???? Is BigPicture then stuck with it? Can you imagine the grief he'll endure, if and when, he later recants such offer to participate in the friendship with OM? I think it's just a risky play for a BH.

On the other side...there is OM's reaction. This plan may inadvertently give the OM the opportunity to make deposits in the WW's lovebank by himself refusing to go along with such plan (even if the plan is only discussed and, most likely, not agreed to). He'll express his false bravada and either indicate he'd could never do it because he'd punch out the BH (because he's been told BH is such a controlling, manipulative jerk) OR he'll express how much he "cherishes" the WW (implying BH doesn't) and how hurt he'd be (because he's a sweet, sensitive guy) and that he could NEVER share her with anyone. (appealling to her juvenile possessiveness) Yuckkkk.

Thus...I, in no way, think this is bad advice...just good advice unknowingly and benevolently applied/suggested in the wrong situation.

Mr. Wondering

I agree with you Mr. W, and if you read my post on this thread, that's exactly what I was saying. I DID TRY TO PULL IT OFF! There is no limit to what an active WW will try in order to continue cake-eating. It's unreal!

Mulan-no offense to you-I did get a good laugh at the prospect of the look on her face. But then I remembered what I did...ugh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Very true Mr. W and LaLa...And let's not forget that OM is a co-conspirator with the WW and would many times go right along with becoming "buddies" with the BH...No skin off his back to do this yanno...He'd still be getting what he wanted...blech...

Mrs. W

I haven't disappeared. Just been too busy in plan A to post lately. I read it all, I read Dr Harley SAA, I know NC means NC BUT... What if the whole affair thing is a mountain k?

My WW's A ramped up over 2 months, peaked 4 months into it, and is now coming down. She said herself the other day that they text each other but nothing serious because things are going very awkward with OM.

She tried more than 5 times for NC. 9/20, 9/25, 10/12, 10/28, etc. Each time it was broken was associated with a lot of emotional pain for her, apologies to me for not being strong enough, other realness. She tried, honestly, hard, she wrote 2 NC letters. The last time we changed her cell phone #, blocked his emails from hers, got her on anti depressants, verbal commitments, anything I could think of. I told her to go to her room one night, less than half joking. One time NC was broken as they drove by each other on the f-ing road. Another time NC was broken because he emailed her after 4 days from a new email that wasn't blocked. Another time after she returned all his stuff to his doorstep he called after 5 days and said I am tossing out this stuffed animal and she then requested he deliver it back to her cuz she couldn't take it. Ugh.

She has said she cannot say goodbye but she has said the PA and EA are over with him. She says the "special" connection is there but she knows she does not want him. She wants us and our marriage. Over the past 7 days she has shown me nothing to make me think this is not true. Today she was an absolute joy to be with. Last night I pressed her for honesty, truth and transparency. She is working on that. She says with each additional contact lately she sees more and more how juvenile, selfish, and vain he really is. Today she told me their email exchange consisted of hair mousse advice. And I have her email password. It was true.

Its not that I am just swallowing this happily. I want NC!! Yes I do! I hate this OM. But look at what I have: a commitment, a dying A, my needs finally being met again with gusto, she is accepting all my suggestions for time and UA, EN's, SF, etc, etc. Aren't there a lot of BHs out there that would love my position right now? Let me reemphasize, I will be pressing for NC, and have, and she agrees. She said she sees this fizzeling out just as SAA predicts they all will and as she has read SAA too. Also, OM runs 2 training gyms around town. His ads are on tv, his face is in the paper, his truck is painted obvious. He will always be around town. (Yes I thought about Dr Harley saying move towns even if it means jobs, schools etc.) But its not an option I want either. This way, instead of her getting butterflies each trigger, she just says "whatever", no big deal, no dying to be in his arms.

Dr Harley talks about how immediate NC will leave the AP's at the height of huge love banks with each other thus always leaving the burner on low flame ready to explode with any chance contact. Instead in the road I see going forward my WW and OM candles are burning out. My WW knows OM slept with another woman New Years Eve. She is off the hook. She no longer feels ga ga head over heels. She sees reality of him and me and is choosing me. With all this I feel its improvement from 3 months ago when WW said all the fog speak of typical WWs. But yes I will promote NC any and all chances.

You have just described a GREAT life, well except for that festering, fleshing eating virus that you have, but that doesn't count in your mind, right? BP, listen to us...you are on a path to destruction...I know what you are thinking as you read these posts too...Here is the likely script in your head, "You guys just don't know MY WIFE and OUR RELATIONSHIP...WE are DIFFERENT!" You are not...I dread the day that I read a post with your name on it a few months from now that says, "You all were right...The affair is back on" Thing is, the affair has NOT ended!!! Please save yourself that kind of grief later by understanding this and manning up NOW...NC MUST BE A BOUNDARY FOR YOU...

How long have you been in Plan A? You do understand that Plan B is necessary in about 85% of cases, right?

Mrs. W

OMG bigpicture - you are totally insane.

This is an active affair and YOU are aiding and abeting it.

IF the affair was DEAD, WHY does she have such an issue with NC???????

He11 - you can't even see a postage stamp at the moment, let alone the bigpicture.

I have a bridge I'd like to sell you......

see she is being nice to you so you will go quietly like a good little doormat

[edited for TOS violation]

BP,

There is such a thing as the betrayed spouse being in a fog. Right now you two are on honeymoon status. What happens when your on emotions start to really take hold? What happens when she has a "bad" day? What happens when life treats you two less than perfectly?

Read what YOU wrote and tell me she is recovery. You said

Of course she is happy, she has her cake and eat it too. She has not gone through withdrawal because she has not withdrawn. And please excuse me but if you think talking about hair mousse is innocent you are a fool.

No woman talks to men about hair mousse unless she has OTHER interests and no man does either. He is not her hair dresser is he?

BP, have it your way, but this will destroy your marriage. You know why? Oh she'll probably get back into the affair more completely than now. But, even if it stays as it is, YOUR RESENTMENT at being treated this way will KILL THE MARRIAGE, unless you just get off on pain. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Someone is going to be hurting when this is all done, and it seems your W has determined that it will be YOU. She won't do the hard work, and yes NC is hard on the WS.

Do your children know of her behavior? Have they met the OM? You guys are playing with fire and I know it will be you that gets burned along with your children of course.

But, you would rather risk this and so would your W, than protect them from a divorce or living in a family torn apart by resentment. Yup, it is better NOW than it was, but BP this stuff will eat you alive.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

BP...

I think what you need right now is a shift in perspective...You are NOT in recovery...The affair is NOT over...You are in Plan A...With LOTS of great opportunities to meet her needs-terrific, do that!!! But PLEASE do not fool yourself into thinking that you can be okay with continued contact and for sure don't tell your wife that you are okay with it...there will be nowhere to go but down if you make those fatal errors...

Mrs. W

BP, you are being played for a FOOL. WITH YOUR OWN ASSENT!

Bigpicture, after reading your first post, I wanted to make a couple of observations. You say:


And then you say:


I have to ask you: when was the last time you voluntarily decided to meet someone for lunch whom you disliked and that bugged you?

The answer is probably never. Which leads me to conclude that your wife is very likely not being totally honest when she says:


And the fact that you is a bit of a red flag.


She may have been *saying* the right things - because that's very easy. But doing them? No, not by a long shot. The right thing would be not to see OM again and certainly not meet him occasionally for "lunch". The right thing would be to give you all her passwords voluntarily - not make you ask for them.


I won't call it naivete or stupidity - I will call it magical thinking.

Take care.

PK

played....

Hmmmm... You're right about the danger of the WS maybe saying yes to the let's all three go out to lunch thing...

She might get a horrified look on her face and then some sort of revelation will take place that it really is NOT 'just friendship' if she and the OM prefer to meet without the BH being there...

OR she might exploit the suggestion as a way to continue contact with the OM, pressuring her BH to be further humiliated by being present while she and OM continue their 'friendship'!

And since she seems SO foggy still, SO intent on cake-eating, she probably would go the latter route.

Most of the OW my WXH got involved with were strangers to me, and it was obvious the OW and my WXH wanted to keep it that way. But there was one that was the wife of a close friend/coworker...

Supposedly my WXH and this particular OW 'only' had an EA. During the 'recovery' after they pronounced their 'love' for each other, my WH, the OW, AND the OW's BH (plus another couple we were all friends with) put a lot of pressure on me to just pretend nothing had happened so we could all continue hanging out together! The other two couples lived in the same neighborhood as us and even after I had made it clear I would not continue the friendship with the OW (and therefore also her BH) they just invited themselves over on New Year's Eve! We had guests at our home, who didn't know the story, two other couples. The OW, her BH, and this other couple just stopped over and THEN invited us all to go over to their (OW/BH) house. My WH and one of the couples went, I quickly filled the couple that stayed with me in on what was going on, then we went over to tell my WH to come home and to again inform the OW that her invitation was not welcome.

So, you're right, there is some danger that a WS may call such a bluff, especially if the BS and OP had been friends before D-day.

BigPitcure,

First off, I agree with what many of the other posters are saying.

It sounds like you are adopting a strategy of just waiting out your WW's A. In the interim you will do all the recovery things, and eventually she will choose you over him and you will live happily ever after.

Said another way, you are (or were) in competition with OM for your wife's affection. Three months ago you were losing the battle and now you think you are ahead of him. So, why rock the boat, just maintain your lead, the clock is your friend and eventually time will run out and you'll be the winner. Afterall, you are the better man, and you should win.

Here's my advice. You might want to dig a little into the details of your plan. A couple of points to consider.

Do you think you are no longer in competition with OM for your WW's affection? Whether your WW feels like the OM has a chance to win is irrelevant. He's still competing. As long as there is contact, he has a chance of winning her over. Whether your WW has determined she will not start up with him again is irrelevant. Prior to her A, I imagine she was pretty determined she would never have an A.

Are you really ahead right now? I really think what causes the roller coaster of emotions is all the times the BS incorrectly assumes they have made progress. I see the list of what you say she is now doing, and they are all things that she is willing to do because they don't infringe on her A. The one thing you asked her to do that infringes on her A, she has refused to do. Sounds to me like the A, her relationship, even if she calls it a friendship, with OM is still more important to her, than you are. So, are you really ahead? Have you really made progress?

But let's set that aside and assume you are ahead. Can you really maintain your lead in this environment? Can a man who lets his W carry on with her lover consistently look attractive to her in a sustainable way. First, most of the women who post her say they are not attracted to men they don't respect and most would not respect a man who is okay with them continuing to see their lover. You may say, I'm not okay with it, and she knows that because of what I told her. Most time people listen to what you say, but believe what they see. Stuffing down your outrage about her continuing contact will come accross to her as being okay with it. But let's assume she realizes your not okay with it and respects you. Can you keep stuffing your outrage down. People with periodic angry outbursts aren't very attractive either. Harley mentions that a single love buster can undo many deposits from meeting an emotional need. So can you keep making deposits over and over without any slip ups?

But let's assume you can. Will time eventually run out? Well, the statistics say that most affairs end a natural death at some point. I imagine that does not usually apply to ones where the BS knows of the A and says I'm ok with continued contact, but I guess we could ignore that. So A's most likely do eventually die a natural death. But not always. Some go on and on and on. Some turn into divorces and marriages to the OP. Do you really want to play this game of relationship "chicken". Waking up each day hoping this is not the day she says "I've made up my mind, I'm leaving you"

But I guess we could say that won't happen, because you are the better man and you will eventually prevail in this competition. Do you really think the better man always wins in these scenarios. We've got lots and lots of people on here with WXS's that traded down. Sure looks like being the better man is often irrelevant.

Even if this strategy works, how are you going to feel about things after you've made it through to the other side. IME, dealing with this stuff is not always a matter of the ends justifies the means. The means can create obstacles in the future that can not be overcome. You should consider that even if this strategy appears to navigate through the A, you are at a huge risk of building up a mountain of resentment that will destroy your M latter down the road.

Anyway, to your original question. No, I have not seen any cases where OM and WW remained friends and the M survived.

Just my 2 cents,

Best of luck.

Hey, I got the message. I am NOT condoning a friendship. I will not tolerate a friendship. I am gunning for NC. I know the A has not ended. I am not being naive about it. I'm just reporting on what she is telling me and doing.

Have you considered Plan B? It's the usual recommendation for dealing with a cake-eating wayward.

I can't possibly, for the life of me, think of any si2ation "riper" for coaching with the Harleys than this one, RIGHT NOW.

You won't settle for anything less than NC for life, and your W is starting 2 realize that. Getting there from here is going 2 require some finesse, if you don't simply go 2 plan B and let her pull her head out on her on and in her own time... ...at the end of which you might be less willing 2 reconcile.

I'd be interested 2 see what kind of plan the Harleys would have for you in this sitch right now.

-ol' 2long

Have you exposed the affair, bp?

BP,

My take on your situation is a little different. I think there's some merit to the idea of allowing the affair flame to burn itself completely out. And I'm not convinced this OM is an imminent danger to your marriage.

HOWEVER...

What strikes me is the astonishing lack of care and concern your wife is displaying for your feelings by hanging out with the man she cheated on you with.

That, and everything else you've written, suggests to me that she WAS infatuated with OM.... and IS NOW infatuated with you (as opposed to really loving you).

But what happens when her infatuation with YOU wears off? What OM will be waiting in the wings to fill that void?

I agree that you should get some professional help to guide you through recovery.

--SC

I seriously doubt that those folks on this site who have endured LTAs lasting 5, 10 or more years would agree with you SC...

Telling BP that is gravely irresponsible of you...doesn't surprise me though...I think that sometimes you just enjoy disagreeing around here for disagreement's sake...It's far from cute...These are people's real lives yanno...

And you're not convinced that this OM is an imminent danger? HUH? You are taking the word of an active wayward...UNREAL!!!

Are you still pals with your OMs?

Mrs. W

Well it's impossible for us to know if bigpicture's wife affair is waning, or if it will continue as a LT or VLTA. From where I stand, either one is a possibility, and either way bigpicture is going to suffer. That he is suffering does not seem to faze her, indicating a selfish state of mind....IMHO.

What we *do* know is that bigpicture would prefer NC to be in place. Toward that end, bigpicture, have you told your wife flat-out that every time she meets w/OM it is a withdrawal from your lovebank? That simply because she's honest about the contact does not make it any less painful and harmful to you? That each time she meets him for lunch she puts your marriage in jeopardy? That one day you may simply decide that you have had enough of her casual disregard for your feelings?

Sometimes communication, or the lack therof, is the issue.

I do like the idea of counseling w/the Harleys, as 2Long sugggested. Perhaps your wife could be sold on the idea of NC as being good for *her*.

PK

From what I have read on this site, now is the time to consider Plan B.

Your wife is cake-eating. Don't give her that option.

If you are winning, she will surely feel the loss of you in her life and human nature dictates "you want what you can't have". Although YOU know she can have you. It seems a little sneaky, but protect yourself. You are vulnerable!

Seriously, NC is the best thing to insist upon. If she doesn't do that, then she is blatantly disrespecting you. Again. The first was the A, now the desire for a "friendship"? What the heck is that about?!! Craziness I tell you. YOU should be first, not the OM. Recovery demands it.

If you are a prayerful person, lift it up to Him. He will certainly sustain and help you.

It seems to me that this man is in Plan A and his wife hasn't yet bought into permenant no contact yet. Part of Plan A is to act loving even though there is contact. He seems to be doing that. What he mustn't do is allow his wife to think that he condones the contact if he doesn't.

BP, how long have you been in Plan A?

My opinion is that your wife isn't done with the affair yet. When she is she won't want to see the OM at all. She with either feel repulsion for her actions or she will feel sadness and regret. Either way it won't feel good to her once she reaches that point. And she will avoid him.

And really, you can't make her stop seeing him. You can't lock her up and control what she does. You certainly can make it known that it is a selfish thing to do, that you don't agree with it, that you will not take any part in it and that it hurts your marriage everytime she does it.

Is this man a friend to your marriage? No. He is a mortal enemy. Your wife is basically playing in the enemy's camp under the guise of friendship. OM probably gloats over this victory and small bit of control in YOUR marriage. Time to draw a line in the sand.

BP, while this affair WILL burn out eventually, be assured it IS an imminent danger to your marriage. This is why Dr. Harley recommends PLAN B when the WS will not stop the affair. That is Dr. Harley's take on affairs and that is the advice you should pay close attention to, lest you jeopardize your mental health AND your marriage.

The danger here is that you will fall out of love with her because of the ABUSE she is inflicting on you. An affair is the ultimate LOVEBUSTER and causes the BS to eventually feel hatred and revulsion for the WS if not checked. Once the BS grows to HATE the WS, it is hard to ever turn that back. The marriage is usually over at that point.

There can also be severe consequences to your mental and physical health from tolerating this abuse for months on end. People have nervous breakdowns from being the victim of an affair. They suffer physical problems from the incessant stress. That is a great danger to your family at a time when you are ALL your children have. They need you in top form to protect THEM. You are ALL they have.

My suggestion to you is to EXPOSE the affair to all key parties. Make sure you children are informed first. If she still won't end her affair, then you would want to get a legal seperation and get her moved out and go into Plan B.

You have already been dealing with this for 6 months, which is the maximum recommended time for Plan A. It is not supposed to be a way of life, but a very short plan before PLAN B. Most affairs DO NOT END in Plan A, [only 15%] so Plan B is almost always called for.

Dr Harley:

Melody:

Do you suppose the dynamic changes at all when it is the wife who is having the affair, as in BP's case? (I notice that the exerpt you quoted references female BSs and I wondered if there was a particular reason for Harley making the gender distinction).

I have noticed some differences myself, but I tend to shy away from generalizations. I do wonder if there might be a difference in the length of time for Plan A, for example.

And I also think that Plan B has a better chance of working if it's done with coaching.....but that's just based on my imperfect observation of forum posters.

PK

Mel:

A few important differences between bigpic2res sitch and the exmaple from Dr Harley you quote:

*WS is the W
*WW isn't "with" the OM, so isn't being enticed 2 "re2rn" physcially, or "leave the lover" physically.
*WW hasn't filed for DV.
*The A is dying, if it's not already dead. NC is the next objective, but it likely won't require "brute force" 2 achieve (but it WILL require resolve and firmness from bp)

-ol' 2long

It is a general error to suppose the loudest complainers for the public [Rush Limbaugh] to be the most anxious for its welfare. - Edmund Burke

pk, the dynamic does change to a small degree based on gender, but the only difference is the timelines, which would not be an issue here. Dr Harley claims that men can handle Plan A a little longer than women. For example, for women 6 weeks is recommended, for men 6 months is the usual maximum. Men do suffer the same mental and physical symptoms as do women, women just tend to experience them SOONER. Women tend to self destruct much faster than men.

So, the only difference in the advice to go to Plan B would be the TIMELINE, which is not even discussed above.

I will point out that the suicides we know of here, were all MEN. We had one man who shot himself and then BobPure had a friend who hung himself.

Getting coaching with Plan B from Steve Harley would be the IDEAL solution and I hope he takes that advice. He doesn't HAVE to do it, of course, but it would be an enormous help, IMO.

2long, the WS most certainly is STILL with the OM, the affair is still on. And it has no indication of dying, nor does it make a difference. Dr. Harley always recommends Plan B when the affair doesn't end. That is not gender specific advice, it matters not if divorce has been filed, it is advice given to ALL marriages where the affair does not end. You have been here long enough to know that. Plan B is not considered "DRASTIC," affairs are DRASTIC, which is why Plan B is the next step.

I agree that it will require "firmness" from bp, but that will most likely come in the form of plan B. 85% of affair DO NOT END in Plan A, which is why Plan B is called for.

What I would do if I were in his shoes, is expose the affair and see if that kills it. Cause as much conflict as possible for the affairees and see if that does the trick. If that doesn't do it, THEN get a legal separation and then go into Plan B.

BP, I would like to add one other thing:

You seem to be viewing this as a "competition" between you and the OM, and believe that your WW is struggling to choose between you.

You seem to think that your task here is to prove to your WW that you are the better choice, and if you can just do that she will dump OM and choose you.

You have GOT to understand that your WW is NOT trying to choose between you and OM - not for one second.

She wants what virtually all WSs want -- she wants BOTH of you.

She wants both the comfort and security of marriage (you) AND the fun and excitement of dating (OM), and has convinced herself that she is so special and entitled or (fill in the blank) that it's okay for HER to behave this way.

She is thrilled that she's apparently found a way to have both, and can't figure out why everybody doesn't live this way -- guess they're just not as smart and clever and special as she is.

She adores having TWO men fighting over her and working hard to fill her ENs, and is high on this attention all the time.

THAT is what she wants.

Don't think for a minute that poor poor WS is struggling to make a choice.

She wants BOTH of you and you can be certain that she will keep this arrangement going for as long as she possibly can - in other words, for as long as you can be persuaded to be part of it. (We are talking YEARS here - a permanent lifestyle - if you are willing.)

That's why you need Plan B, because Plan B kicks one of the three legs out from this dynamic and causes it to fall over.

I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you. Many, many BS make the same mistake and think the WS is trying to "choose".

They're not.
Mulan

I hate being one of these kinds of "experts", but I can see the point that SC is making here. My W's VLTA lasted about 11 years. During that time, she never left her family 2 be with RM. D-day was 6 years ago next week. I never did plan B. She hung on2 the "friendship" in spite of my protests for at least 3 years of infrequent contact (2 states away, only 2 in-person contacts in public, an important difference from bp's sitch). The A most definitely died (RM is remarried).


I wouldn't call this irresponsible at all. Certainly not "gravely" so. I do reiterate that it is critically important that bp apply some finesse 2 his plan A, with the help of the professionals, 2 get NC established.

No coercion. If he makes a demand, the results will mean little even if she complies. If he entices her 2 agree 2 NC, on the other hand, it'll mean everything because SHE chose it.

He does, first and foremost, need 2 stop even appearing 2 the twisted WS interpretation engine 2 be amenable 2 continued contact right now, though. The "finesse" part includes doing so respectfully, and leaving the choice ultimately up 2 his W.


Mrs W. You're bigger than this. That's all I have 2 say.


I'm convinced that he's a danger 2 the M (though you weren't asking me). However, lack of NC is also a danger 2 the M. Ending these influences is entirely up 2 the individuals causing them. WW and OM. BP is wise 2 make the OM as much of a non-issue as he is able 2, all the while clearly stating his boundaries regarding other men interfering with his marriage. BP is also wise 2 "work with" the positive steps that his W has made back 2 the marriage, all the while carefully enticing her 2 choose NC of her own free will.

The danger does remain, of course, that she will choose 2 keep her "friendship" no matter how hard bp tries 2 entice her 2 fully commit 2 him. It does happen. But if she does choose her friend over the M, bp can get himself in an emotionally-healthy position such that he's able 2 happily move on 2 a better relationship.

Ultimately, if the WS isn't willing 2 recommit 2 the M, the BS is better off without them anyway.


Mrs W:

You have the power 2 rise above this.

-ol' 2long

I didn't realize that he hasn't exposed the A. This would be a simple dose of reality 2 administer.

But I think he should call the Harleys right away, 2. 15% isn't great odds, but it's nothing like the length of those of an affair marriage surviving. I'd be very interested 2 see the specifics of the plan that the Harleys would apply 2 the particulars of this sitch, right now.

With time, things could drastically change, no matter who does what. That's why I think finesse is important now.

-ol' 2long

2long, you just proved her point. While your wife's affair did eventually end, it was a long term affair that was likely prolonged by your own behavior. Most people could never endure that assault for years on end as you did. The Harleys would certainly never recommend it. And I believe even today your wife feels she can be "friends" sometime in the future? Isn't that what you told us?


If by "finesse" you mean a VERY SHORT TIME before he goes into Plan B, but I have my druthers that Plan A will do the trick. As Dr Harley stated, plan A only works in 15% of affairs.


I believe he has done this already. It is unrealistic to believe it work now. Nothing wrong with COERCION, though, it is part and parcel of plan A.



2long, the problem here is that BP has no boundaries. He is ENABLING her affair. He is not "enticing" her to do anything, he has given her no motivation to end her love affair with TWO MEN. Enabling is not "ENTICING" someone to do the right thing.

What is called for here is NOT a life long Plan A, not more enabling of her "friendship," but the practice and implemtation of Marriage Builders principles. Which is a) exposure and b) implementation of Plan B if/when Plan A fails to end the affair.

The point is, 2long, that it takes BOTH Plan A *AND* Plan B. That is the expectation. It is not an expectation that Plan A will bust up the affair. It takes BOTH A and B. Plan A is not intended to be WAY OF LIFE, and unfortunately, many enablers and conflict avoiders abuse it as such.

The Harleys do have a PLAN, which is published on this site and in their books, it is called Plan A and Plan B. He doesn't have to get coaching to know what their plan is, although, I agree SH could be extremely helpful in coaching him through all the specifics.

Well, it is incorrect 2 state simply that I endured the A for years on end. It was 11 years old when I found it. The PA had ended before i found out, and the EA burned out over the next 2ple years. And all the while, RM was over there and my W was over here.


The Harleys are also uncomfortable with LTAs in general. I felt, very strongly, that I was pretty much "on my own" with my recovery (not slighting the Harleys with that remark, it's just how I felt). At first, that was hard. For the past 2ple of years, though, I've been enjoying the process.


That's what I told you. It's been a while ago, though. I don't believe that anymore. RM isn't currently a factor in our recovery. I don't believe he will be again. But if he becomes one, I'll deal with it.


By finesse, yes I do mean a VERY SHORT TIME - specifically NOW - that bp get going with the pros. And let them help him decide whether he should do plan B if that's necessary. That's what I meant.


Enticing someone else 2 make healthy choices is always better than telling them what 2 do. If that doesn't work, then there are other steps.


All with the help of the authors of the methods (not principles). And until bp coaches with one of them, or with someone trained by them, we'll never know how they'd recommend the methods be applied 2 this particular sitch.

-ol' 2long

Well, yes we do know, 2long. We can read the principles published here and in the books, just as the Harleys intended. That is the purpose of this forum and the books. They don't expect everyone to have to shell out $185 for counseling. That is why they publish their principles on this website and tell people how to deal with adultery.

They expect that people can come here and save their marriages by reading about and learning the principles on this forum. That is WHY they set up this forum in the first place.

Plan A and Plan B. That is how affairs are handled according to the Harleys.

Well then. There you go.

bp:

Do what Mel suggests.

Disregard what I said above.

-ol' 2long

Just as an FYI, BP's tag line says he did a plan B, for one night. It might help to hear what was meant by that, perhaps someone else knows.

BP,

Just want to clarify that I was in no way suggesting that I think it's okay for your wife to pal around with OM. It's obviously not, and you have already conceded that point several times. I just have a different take on "what it all means".

--SC

I believe he got mad and stayed out one night after he found out she had sex with her "friend" back on December 20th:




http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Six months of Plan A - these are Bigpictures comments 3 weeks ago:


• "I feel I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown if I have to experience one more moment with their contact. I know I can't go home."


• "That was the last straw for me. I cannot look at her again right now, too much pain."


• "I cannot take anymore. I will not take anymore. She sees that I am at the end of my rope."


• "God please help us all through the misery."


Dr. Harley: "The problem with a coninuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them.

Plan B doesn't always work, but it does protect you from the intense emotional pain that you could be experiencing day in and day out."

No 2long, I was neither acting small nor low...So I do not understand your chatisement of me at all...SC's "advice" simply made me go "huh?"...The ONLY ways I could see someone giving that advice was if they were either in contact with an OP themselves or just plain ignorant to affairs in general...SC disagrees quite often with the MB methods here-and it sincerely perplexes me why she would even bother posting if she doesn't agree with MB-People come here to MB to learn MB after all...

I also don't see why some are thinking that this situation is any different than any other affair that has had a Dday...So what that the WW is now placating the BS with a few nice words and some SF (great that he does have some terrific Plan A opportunities with this situation, but I'd like to know a timeline)...So what that SHE says the affair is dead-Would it surprise you to know that a WW will LIE to get what she wants? That she will take things further underground and be as conniving as to pad the way by claiming they are just "lunch buds" in case they ARE ever seen together? I would not be surprised by this at all, so I think telling this man to just wait it out and the affair will eventually die while he watches this brutality from the sidelines is cruel...Sure it MIGHT die a natural death, but it might not...a big gamble with his sanity, imo...

I think he must draw boundaries and use the MB plans, Plan A/Plan B...He should not be told to endure the abuse...that is how I saw that advice...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

1. There was not a single word of advice in my post. Your interpretation of my (non)advice is incorrect. (Though, I can understand your confusion, which is why I tried to clarify in post #2)

2. It is "small and low" to slam someone personally just because their opinion "makes you go, 'Huh?'".

3. Saying "I'm not convinced" is a far cry from saying "It isn't so."

4. We agree that her continued contact with OM is cruel to BP. How 'bout that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

--SC

That is a VAST IMPROVEMENT from what you said earlier:

smartcookie wrote:
Some "merit," huh? Meritorious for WHOM? The WW? No imminent danger?

Actually, it's pretty much a reiteration of what I DID say in my first post (if you'd read past the first two sentences.)

From post #1:



But I guess it's much more fun to take things out of context, huh?

Precisely Mel!

Mrs. W

Well, I am so relieved to hear that you really DIDN'T MEAN it when you said:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And this is exactly what will be your undoing! Unless you come to an understanding that their "specialness" is the ongoing fantasy that fuels the A, you will never be able to end that, unless and until, you can kill that emotion.

NO CONTACT, is the only way to achieve that!!

I wish you well,

All Blessings,
Jerry

t/j Hi Jerry, good to see ya in these parts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, you had me fooled by your reply, then.

Look...

You and Mel can have this thread. I'm not going 2 argue with either one of you.

I think I try 2 see others' viewpoints when I come 2 MB. I don't feel that's reciprocated.

And particularly since bp seems 2 be gone now, there's no point in me trying 2 convince anyone that my perspective has merit, or be told that it doesn't.

Take care,
-ol' 2long

I agree with this. OTOH, I have seen a couple of men who were in ongoing counseling with S. Harley who did an extended Plan A. The men writing about it said that Steve would ask them how they were holding out and whether or not they felt they could continue. When they said they thought they could, then he encouraged them to continue.

Only BP knows what his emotional condition is right now. The posts you reference from him describing his pain seem to have been made before there was a move toward recovery. That movement may have re-invigorated him to continue longer.

I don't think he should agree to his wife continuing to have lunch with the OM, but her doing so does not necessarily mean that he needs to move immediately into Plan B.

IMO, it would seem that recommending that he contact the Harley's now would enable him to get a better plan of action. BP might even get his wife to join him in receiving counseling from the Harleys.

2long...

This thread obviously does NOT belong to Mel or I, that is simply a ridiculous and dramatic declaration by you...If you have points, make them...I'll listen, and if I disagree I will let you know that too...BigPicture HAS been back and I'm sure he will listen too...

What SC said was simply ludicrous in the context of this thread, imo...Thankfully she has clarified that what she said originally she did not mean...ShineThrough/Jerry's last quote from BP paints a pretty clear and concise picture of the situation, does it not? The WW ADMITS that there is still a "special connection" between herself and the OM...If that doesn't tell you that the affair rages on, I don't know what will...

Mrs. W

2long, just because someone disagrees with your viewpoint does not mean they don't SEE it. Just as you have expressed disagreement with the viewpoints of others on this thread, [in fact, you sought out others here for disagreement, not the other way around] that doesn't mean you can't SEE their point. It only means you don't AGREE, just as you don't agree with others.

Besides, folks come here to get the MARRIAGE BUILDERS viewpoint, not my personal viewpoint, not yours, but MARRIAGE BUILDERS. I will be the first to admit I don't know to save marriages, so I defer to Dr. Harley.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I did not mean it in the way YOU interpreted it. But I meant it.

Exactly. And therein lies the RUB, Steve is not counseling him. Steve does not expect us to do the corner cutting here because we are not qualified. HE IS. As he told me, if there is going to be variations from these principles, it should come at HIS HAND, not ours. I am sure not qualified to tell this guy to prolong his Plan A.

I very much believe he should prepare to go to Plan B. Plan A was never meant to be a way of life. I think he needs to get his ducks lined up right now, before he becomes any more beaten down.

IMO, 2Long was on the mark when he encouraged BP to call the Harleys.

I would especially encourage him to do so because he is further into the process than most since his wife is at home and is actively participating in the marriage and it appears with some expert guidance, her continued "friendship lunches" with the OM may end quickly.

He's sitting at an apex in his marriage and I hope that he will pursue wise counseling that would give him the greatest opportunity to roll down the right side of that mountain.

I think this falls in2 the top 10 disrespectful judgments I've received in the last 6 years. How the heck do you know why I posted???

Goodness groceries!

be well, honestly. I'm went!
-ol' 2long

I would add that there has been no move towards recovery whatsoever. The WW has simply redefined her affair in order to shut him up. A classic manipulation tactic. There have been other periods where they got along better than others, and this is more of the same. Just because the drunk is not falling down as much today does mean he won't tomorrow or that he is any closer to recovery. They are no more closer to recovery today than they were on December 20th. I think he wants to believe that, but it is no more than wishful thinking.

Agree, but it is important to remember that many cannot AFFORD counseling, and do just fine using the board and the reading material. His best chance comes from coaching with SH, though, as I have said before.

I have no idea why you posted and never said I did.

I don't know how you personally define "moving toward recovery".

I personally see:

1. His wife is home.
2. His wife is not verbally attacking him.
3. His wife is not emotionally distancing herself from him.
4. His wife is not justifying and/or defending her affair.
5. His wife is re-engaged in their marriage in a way that she had not been for some time.
6. His wife is not sneakily making arrangements to be with the other man.
7. His wife has been honest with him regarding her desire to to continue the friendship with OM, instead of just quietly choosing to continue the friendship covertly.

YMMV, but I see that as a definite move toward recovery.

Mel, for cryin' out loud, you said "in fact, you sought out others here for disagreement, not the other way around"

How is that not presuming why I posted (and it's certainly saying that you did know - "in fact").

I'm flabbergasted, and it takes a lot 2 gast my flabber!

She has simply changed her affair tactics...Contact continues...The affair continues...Real recovery is impossible without NC in place...She is APPEASING him so she can continue her affair in peace...

Mrs. W

I think that this is precisely why I encouraged bp 2 call the Harleys in this case.

I had one introductory session with SH 5.5 years ago. After I gave him a summary of my story, he asked "So, you only just found out 7 months ago?" He didn't say "So, you've been in plan A for 7 months, you should have gone 2 plan B last month!" And the next thing he asked me was "how is your energy level?" And when I told him I felt pretty good, in spite of contact continuing, he advised continuing plan A.

bp can do what he wants, but he'll be on much firmer footing if he pony's up a few hundred bucks and coaches with the Harleys than if he picks and chooses the advice he reads here - a lot of it probably sounding more conflicting 2 his inexperience ears than it does 2 ours. Because, if he takes his time deciding, or badly implements a plan (any plan), he may find himself personally recovered with a broken marriage he no longer wants.

-ol' 2long

I agree that they are not "in recovery".

IMO, however, they are *moving toward recovery*.

And I would hazard a guess that a majority of current BSs on the forum would give an eyetooth to be in a similar position as BP. YMMV.

Moving towards recovery would be to END THE AFFAIR, not to refuse to end contact. None of the above gets him any closer to that point. What he is experiencing this week is pretty much the same as what he experienced last month and the month before, the only difference now is that she is REFUSING to end contact, which means he is actually FARTHER from recovery than before.

huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> 2Long, you DID disagree with others on this thread. That is simply a true fact. I have no idea WHY and have not stated I know why. But you DID disagree.

edited for TOS violation---harassment of other posters

You don't have to be a mind reader to accurately predict the actions of a WW toward her ADDICTION...

***Edited for TOS violation---harassment of other posters***

Mrs. W

edited for TOS violation

In case anyone hasn't gone back and read BigPicture's previous posts, you might find it helpful to get the complete picture. Others have been telling him to go into Plan B to no avail. The phase he is in now is simply a repeat of an ongoing pattern, except WORSE because now his wife outright refuses to end contact:






 
Pasted from http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...amp;Search=true


And on the 20th of December:

edited for TOS violation

edited for TOS violations

ok,,,,,,enough!!

Offer your advice or suggestions WITHOUT attacking another poster!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I re-read those, and realize that I had read them before - I didn't just "jump in" for the sake of an argument. Sounds like "typical" rollercoaster plan A stuff.

I remember that time well. Didn't enjoy it. Had suicidal thoughts many times (but not tendencies). Got through it in what seemed like forever, but wasn't all that long, in retrospect.

My advice 2 bp, if he really is still around, hasn't changed.

-ol' 2long

That post from Mulan is so good and so on the money it bears repeating. Spot on Mulan.

And the advice to contact Steve Harley from 2long and others is also totally what bigpicture should do.

[quoteI remember that time well. Didn't enjoy it. Had suicidal thoughts many times (but not tendencies). Got through it in what seemed like forever, but wasn't all that long, in retrospect.[/quote]

So are you suggesting that he stay in a perpetual Plan A for years on end, instead of following the Harley's advice and going into PLAN B? How many years of Plan A would you suggest, 2Long? Didn't you endure your wife's active affair for 3 years? And hasn't she told you she will resume her "friendship" in the future? Doesn't she still have his picture on her desk?

Is this what you envision for BP?

THIS is what 2long is suggesting:

This is what he said, He is making an argument for a longer plan A, just "finessing" it a little and agreeing with Smartcookie that there is "merit" to allowing the affair to continue unabated; to "burn out on its own":


And


Agree very much he could benefit from counseling, but I think that more Plan A would be extremely damaging. And I especially think the notion that there is 'merit" to allowing it to continue unabated [with no Plan B, that is] is downright dangerous to his mental health.

Hey cool!

Mel, why don't you just post for me? You seem 2 know better than I do what I said and what I meant.

bk:

Mulan's post was right on the money. My W even said: "I'd hate 2 think that I would ever have 2 choose". But that was July 2002. I'm sure she'd be utterly embarrassed if I reminded her of what she said then.

Seriously, Mel:


No. If you think I'm suggesting that, I guess that would make your interpretation of what I said... ...what's the term? Wrong?, perhaps? But that's JMHO. What do you think I'm saying is probably more relevant here.


I wouldn't presume 2 know how long his plan A should be/have been. Years? That's your word.

That's why I suggested he call the Harleys. They can be a lot more help than we can in this sitch, because they will be able 2 discuss it candidly with him. We can't.


Heck, I endured it for 11 years. I endured negotiating it's end for 3 years, yes. Plan A? If you want 2 label it that, yes. So what? If I was able 2 hack it, isn't that all that's important 2 me and my family? Are you calling me a failure in some way, unable 2 help bp out?


Yes. 5 years ago, perhaps was the last time she "told me" she would resume. About 3 and a half years ago, she "asked me" if she could resume. I said no. More accurately, I said "if that's what you want, I want you 2 have what you think you want. But I won't stay married 2 you if you have anything 2 do with him for the rest of your life."

But maybe I should have had her drawn and quartered, instead.

No, it's on her bulletin board.

Maybe I should just shoot her.


You tell me. You seem 2 have it all choreographed.

-ol' 2long

No, I truly don't. If I have misunderstood you in any way, I would welcome the correction. But it seems as if you are AGREEING with Smartcookie when you say:


And I believe that is exactly what you did in your own marriage. You were in Plan A for YEARS. If that is not what you are advocating to bigpicture, then please accept my apologies.

My suggestion to BP is that he follow the Harley's advice and utilize PLAN B, because Plan A is not intended to be a WAY OF LIFE. In fact, it can be downright dangerous to one's mental health, as Dr. Harley has stipulated.

WHAT???

It doesn't matter, Mel. I said what I said. All I could try 2 do is possibly clarify better than I did initially. If I thought that would evoke a respectful or humble response, I might put some effort in2 it. But I don't believe it will.


I was. But I wasn't offering "instructions" 2 bp, just something 2 consider.


Except for the term "exactly" being applied 2 an, at best very generally-described his2ry of events, this is true.


If it was plan A, I couldn't even tell you when I stopped it, or even if I have.


Well, I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't advocating that, so I graciously accept your humble apology.


And my suggestion is identical, except that I suggest he follow it from either Steve or Jennifer's own mouth, and applied specifically 2 his specific circumstances at this specific time.


Agreed. Life can be dangerous 2 our mental health. Adversity can kill us even. It can also make us healthier, if we 2rn it in2 oppor2nity 2 grow as individuals.

I'd like 2 think that's what I did.

But you probably have a different idea.

-ol' 2long

2Long, I am not for a minute dismissing the success of your marriage. This is your definition of success, therefore it is. However, you went through 3+ years of Plan A to get where you are today. I will tell you unequivocally, that I could not do that without having a nervous breakdown or going postal and shooting someone. Most people CANNOT endure long durations of ABUSE and torment without mental and physical repercussions.

This is why Dr. Harley says he developed Plan B. It is to protect folks the emotional fallout of the affair. So, while you were able to endure it, I have no reason to believe that Bigpicture can, most especially since he just said 3 weeks ago that he felt he was "having a nervous breakdown" and was at the end of his rope.

Since that time, things have actually WORSENED in his marriage. His W now REFUSES to end her affair and he is so beaten down that he trying to rationalize keeping her lover as a "friend." That is how far down this guy has gone. He is willing to accept all this abuse because she is being NICE to him this week and because he is flat mentally worn out from the assault. He has lost his bearings.

My goal here is not to dismiss your apparent progress, and I am sorry if it came across like that, but to ALERT this man to the very REAL DANGERS of a continuation of Plan A. I have absolutely no confidence that he can endure it like you did. I know that I would not be able to do it myself and I have endured some pretty bad crap.

So, we're largely in agreement, then.

And I didn't change my 2ne at all.

I don't know if anybody remembers it, but back in the first half of 2002, I had some similarly desperate moments. I ac2ally went on a 10-mile "walk" through the high desert in a blizzard, drunk, with no intention of re2rning, less than 2 months after d-day.

I know about how bp feels. And I agree, this is tantamount 2 an emergency si2ation, if he's in that much pain right now.

Hence the suggestion that he make the call and get the help from the source, not from us.

-ol' 2long

Thanks, BigK.
Mulan

bp:

Here's an "old" Harley column that deals with an unfaithful wife. You can see elements of the advice you're getting from many parties in it. See if it helps...

You guys and gals are the best!! You're all on here giving your valuable time with great points of view and opinions all for the benefit of helping me figure a way out of this mess and into a new great marriage. Thank you all.


Harley's words from link above: This is exactly where I am at.

Since I launched plan B (yes it only lasted one day because my wife agreed to all conditions the next morning) we have had some setbacks but I feel the progress continues. Judge for yourself…

Tuesday I found an email confirming they had seen each other. I asked her what they did. Here is her string of texts:
He stopped by to get my opinion on a photo for a magazine shoot. He didn’t stay long. He is not the other guy. You are the only guy.

Please believe me. I want you and OUR family. I did not let him kiss me and I told him I would tell you that he stopped by.

I am sorry that I let him in our house. It won’t happen again. (after I told her that was unacceptable.)

I am really sorry. I want this to work too. I finally realize what I would be jeopardizing if I continued a relationship with him. I don’t want to lose you.

I knew you wouldn’t like it (him at our house) but I didn’t think that it was unacceptable to you. Now I know. I am so sorry. (Finally my boundaries are becoming clear to both of us!)

Everyday I stare at the picture of us on my computer. This morning (in bed) I had that Velcro feeling with you. You were on my mind all day.

Tuesday evening at dinner I gave her a letter (and told her) that expressed how much it hurt me today when she contacted OM. She asked what she could do to start making it up to me and I said she could start by changing her cell phone #. She started crying (in the restaurant) I think because she really sees now how much I don’t trust her. More fog clearing. She also offered to come to my work for lunch everyday if it would help. At home more SF, as it has been every day since New Years day. Our previous record was 11 days and W wants to break that. She actually said goal of 30 days in a row so it would help us get reconnected quickly.

First thing yesterday morning she called me to “check in”. She said she would call me hourly with updates on her whereabouts and schedule. Her string of texts went like this:

You are my density. (Running joke we have from Back To The Future)

I have so much faith in you. My hope is that you will feel the same about me soon.

I love you. I can’t believe we are about to celebrate 17 years together. (Anniversary is 1/12)

During her long drive she asked me what my top 10 priorities are. We talked for 30 minutes. When I got home from work W was crying while making dinner. AAhhh, perfect opp to meet some EN's I thought to myself. I listened and affirmed her as she ranted about DS16 & crazy mutt dog. We hugged lots. She asked why my eyes were red (I was crying on the drive home cuz I was feeling scared about the possibility of her continuing A).

At that she asked if we could talk in private. She told me she only had one phone call from OM that lasted 2 and a half minutes. She showed me the cell phone log. She said her only real comment to OM was that she was not going to jeopardize her marriage anymore. After that they really didn't have much to say. She said to me she thought they could be friends but after the awkward conversation she sees its not really possible. Then she said she felt down about that and that was another reason she was crying when I got home. (So now we have some withdrawal feelings.)

And most of the evening after dinner she asked me not to come into her office as she was making me an anniversary gift (the kids were in there lots so she wasn’t just hiding communication with OM). She said I should not get her anything as I had done enough lately. Part of what she meant is this and I want to share this because I am bragging but also because someone else may be able to use this romantic idea:

Months ago during this ordeal I created a list of 100 reasons I love her. There were many times I wanted to give it to her but I waited for the right moment. Christmas was it. But I didn’t just give her a paper list. I cut out 100 hearts on red paper, wrote the phrases on each one, stapled them to a white ribbon and strung them around the Christmas tree. I was up til 5am Xmas eve. It was perfect because that was our 2nd tree which W turned into a theme tree of just red and white decorations. The tree even has a motorized spin so I didn’t have to walk around to hang the hearts. Cool! Xmas morning DS6 was 1st downstairs with W close behind and DS said “Look Santa gave us notes!” Big love account deposits no?!

And of course more SF last night.

I also confirmed in her email (I have her password, thanks keyloggers) that she was deleting some of his emails. Not all but a select few that talked about her giving us only 1 more month back on 12/17.

Despite everyone’s suggestion to go to plan B I think I will stick this out some more. I hope I don’t get burned but I am monitoring for setbacks. I think she is making progress towards NC and sees the realities of the boundaries we need.

Since 12/21 my emotional sitch has improved drastically so I can deal with the contact if it continues. And I will verify and push for transparency.

This is really great. Nothing better than for HER to realize it herself.

I suggest getting His Needs/Her Needs on CD so you can listen to it TOGETHER. Take a road trip with her, maybe over the Martin Luther King long weekend, and play the CD. It really helped my wife and I. It works because you are trapped in the car and you don't have to have eye contact. You can pause and discuss but discussion isn't mandatory.

I am encouraged by your Plan A. The only reason things blew up on this thread is you came at it backwards asking if a continuing friendship was OK. If you had posted how good things were going but still had to overcome with typically wayward belief that they could be friends you would have gotten more encouragement. Many BS's would kill for the opportunity to Plan A like you've got here.

I, too, endured a couple weeks of residual or closure contact. It's scary and playing with fire (but, at least, the OM in our life was 750 miles away and NOT stopping by my home). Keep monitoring her closely. Steve Harley discusses establishing a plan for no contact. Your wife needs guidance on how to go about it. She is way to caught up in not being rude ("he just stopped by", "I didn't know it was unacceptable", "It was only a minute and a half"). She needs to come up with a plan, with your assistance and NOT your demands (preferably), to help her STOP this, as she says above, unworkable "friendship".

Such as:

What to do if he calls???

Solution: Change number, don't answer, let it go to answering machine and don't listen to machine....let YOU listen first.

What to do if he stops by???

Don't answer door...call YOU, immediately

What to do if she sees him out and about???

Walk away...don't linger...don't speak to him and then she won't have ANY conversation to explain to you and make you uncertain if its the truth.

What to do if he hounds her???

Consider restraining order....carry a whistle with her and blow it if he approaches her saying "stay away from me" (she'll not have to do this more than once)

Finally, there are some good threads herein about withdrawal written by former wayward spouses. Read up about what she's about to go through. Link her to the topics, if she's receptive or copy them and leave them laying around for her to read (try to resist the urge to GIVE them to her as she is less likely to read them that way).


Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

bp:

This is so very cool!

I get goosebumps when things go this well in difficult times.

Just don't let your guard down.

And continue 2 be a loving, devoted H.

So cool!

-ol' 2long

***edited. TOS violation, harassment of posters***

MyRev:

Have you been reading what just happened here?

bp is welcome 2 look up my old posts. There all there. I'm not perfect, and haven't handled my recovery perfectly. Forget shooting my W for keeping that pic2re. Shoot me!


And besides, I acknowledged that Mel knows what I mean and what should be done far better than I could.

Bp also knows he can (and needs 2) take what advice he sees fit.

-ol' 2long

***edited***

2long was one of the posters here who helped me to change my life. I value his advice today as much as I valued it when I was a stumbling, bumbling, mass of incoherency.

Anyone who manages to save his marriage after the 11 year affair he had no knowledge of to the place it is today, has my utmost respect.

The recovery time of a very long term affair can be as long as the VLTA itself.

And this place is not only about advice, it is about support, compassion and the sharing of ideas. At least it used to be.

I understand your point. I too am left shaking my head at some of the ridiculous things that spouses put up with. I have come to see that some posters are able to give decent advice regardless of their own situations.

I can see 2Long giving advice here as compared to the thread where the spouse came across a picture of the OM in his wife's diary.

I think 2Long...even though his cleverness gets in the way sometimes, gives pretty good advice. He might be a bit too tolerant of some things for my taste, but others find him helpful.

The reason I hesitated posting my feelings, was just what you've posted here ... I knew someone would take my words "personally".

It was not my intent to dump on 2long ... we all have different tolerances of what we will accept.

However, I do think its important for a new poster to evaluate the state of an advisor's M to see if that is what the new poster is seeking for themselves. We all have different tastes and personalities ... what works for one, may not work for the other. Therefore, we should choose wisely where we accept advice from.

...and yes, I think newbies are here looking for "advice" and answers to what is happening to them. I know I was a mess when I first came here, wondering what the he11 just happened, and what was I going to do next.

***edited for TOS violation---harassment of other posters***

I'm rather new, but surely this has come up before.

edited for citing above TOS violation

***edited for TOS violation***

Josie:

You're far 2kind. Give yourself a whole lot more credit and me much less. In the end, we do our best when we sift through the advice we hear, and make our own decisions as they apply 2 our particular sitches.

-ol' 2long

***edited---cleanup***

bp:

I'm proud of you (even though I'm "tolerant" of such bad behavior in my own marriage).

You done good. Just keep doing it!

-ol' 2long

Post deleted by MelodyLane

Mel.

I've removed that line from my post above.

-ol' 2long

gotcha!

Mel:

I've removed my sarcastic comment, as it probably is the right thing 2 do.


-ol' 2long

Post deleted by MelodyLane

Mel:

Sorry for the sarcasm. I let MyRev get me revved up more than I should have.

ETA: I suppose if someone really wants to know the whole story behind why that pic2re is still around, I could talk about it, but not on this thread (2 be fair, and 2 show I'm not trying 2 hide something from bp if he's interested, we could be sure 2 invite him elsewhere, if it's desired 2 create a thread around it).

-ol' 2long

Post deleted by MelodyLane

Edit:

Regarding the "pic2re", I won't be able 2 go in2 very much detail, because the discussion I had with my W about it involves an agreement between my W and DD and Son in law about the appropriateness of keeping a pic2re in their wedding album of the SIL who sued us last year.

Long, complicated, recovery-distraction (but character-building and marriage-building) discussion on its own.

-ol' 2long

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Myrev:

I moved my post about that pic2re 2 JL's new thread addressed 2 you, so as not 2 clutter up bp's thread here anymore than I already have.

regards,
-ol' 2long

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Members:

There are many more moderators here now. There are rules in place with regard to harassment---and this includes verbal volleys and cheap shots back and forth. All these posts have been edited because they either incited this behavior, or were an attempt to control it.

I suggest that you all stop it. It takes us time to edit these posts. If it continues in a chronic manner, banning is the next step.

bigpicture,

I saw your update post yesterday but can't post from work. Like Mr. W. and 2long and others I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your sharing about your success so far. Your perseverance is inspiring to many.

While your seemingly overnight change may seem unbelievable to some, I experienced something similar so I know it happens.

Keep your guard up but enjoy your new commitment to each other. It's been over a year for us and the rollercoaster has been bumpy at times, but posting here on MB and working with our tough MC have been very helpful.

Thanks,
Ace

[color:"red"]Edited to fix terminology...thanks Mel. [/color]

Ace, Plan B is a complete separation, usually begun with a legal separation agreement and always with a Plan B letter. The Plan B letter contains the condition that they are to be separated until all contact with the OP ends. Bigpicture simply stayed out all night [or part of a night] when he found his wife had sex with the OM again. They did not ever separate, or go through the process of plan B, so he has not done Plan B. It's not that it's unbelievable, just that he hasn't ever done it. He just stayed out all night; they never separated.

Woo Hoo!

It looks like there is a new sheriff in town!

Perhaps the boards will begin to resemble what they once were.

Thanks Lux!

Throw some fuel on the fire, CN!! WOO HOO!

Mel, you have email.

I've been offline since yesterday afternoon. Looks like I missed a pretty good dust-up and the predicatable editing that followed. I don't see the new thread you reference, so I can only assume that it was deleted/edited, also.

It is a shame that we can't express/defend conflicting points of view, without the thought police's interference. I would have thought that this board would be all about addressing/resolving conflict, but it appears we're more about conflict avoidance.

BTW, I don't see us "IN" conflict, just a different perspective on what recovery means to each of us.

There really was no conflict. I think the mod just wanted to re direct the thread.

Your point yesterday Myrev was well understood. I saw your intention as not attacking, but merely raising a point. We all approach things differently though and reach people that are receptive to our methods. 2Long obviously has done a lot of good here and continues to do so. Even though some may view the situation that he deals with as being unbearable, others may look to that as an inspiration for their own lives. To each his own.

I think that is what you were trying to get across yesterday.

MEDC

BigPicture -

It sounds as if your wife is starting to realize and accept that no contact with the OM is needed.

I agree with Mr. Wondering about making specific plans of action to take when the OM attempts to make contact (dropping by the house etc.)

Also, it's a VERY good sign that your wife is allowing you to make LB deposits! Not many BS's get much opportunity to do that.

MR, medc:

I had written a long post 2 MR about "the pic2re" that I decided 2 move 2 JL's thread so as not 2 threadjack this one anymore than I already have.

I have no idea why JL's thread was deleted, but it was, and I don't have a copy of my post anywhere on my computer. I've asked the mods if I can be emailed a copy.

It 2 2long for me 2 write it 2 want 2 try 2 reconstruct it, but I think it would have explained what I've done about the pic2re in a manner that would be satisfactory 2 the skeptics.

-ol' 2long

2long,

I'm old enough and have made enough mistakes of my own to understand that I am more than capable of misreading a situation. What I read about the pic was too much for me accept in what I would view as a functional recovery ... but there appears to be "The Rest of the Story", so I'll await your efforts to reclaim your post before I comment further.

Back to bigpicture's issues ...

MyRev:

The mods helped me recover the post. It's on my "fanfare" thread.

Thanks,
-ol' 2long

Mulan,

Thank you for this post about choosing both OM and me. I can see this in her- that is not choosing one or the other but BOTH. Not acceptable. She swears she can say no to him physically. But I know the EA is ongoing. I intercepted some emails this morning that invited her to lunch. I headed it off by inviting her to lunch and reminded her that the other day she offered to have lunch with me everyday if it would make me feel better. She did just meet me for lunch. Yeah. But if I wouldn't have headed it off they would have. And during lunch I gave her this letter...

You are saying all the right things to me and doing all the right things with me (and to me:) ). I love it and you know how great our marriage can be with both of us doing it. But I also know your affair with BA is not over. Why else would you see him Thursday AND Tuesday after you have committed to us?

Even if the physical part is done (which it was still not as of just last Thursday and I still have my doubts about Tuesday) we both know the emotional part is still there. That puts our marriage in jeopardy. It also makes me FEEL scared and anxious every hour still that you will continue to “be” with him. I know he has been to our house many times... that you have had sex in OUR bed many times… in OUR home that I work to support daily with my hard earned wages and sweat and while confined to my office. That betrayal hurts deep. It makes me sick. He is too close to our empty house. That freaks me out seriously. Especially now that you are saying how much you want US. When you didn’t want us I expected it, but now I would be crushed and don’t know if I could go on with you.

Please try to understand how strongly I feel about this. With how close you are to each other daily, the fact he drives right by our house on his way to and from work, that you drive right by his work… these thoughts paralyze me and are still affecting my work daily. I spent all morning on this letter alone not working. 5pm never comes soon enough for me.

Even if you are choosing us, your emotions for him combined with his for you may be too much for you to make the right decision for US in the heat of the moment knowing that you can just lie about it and I would never find out. I know how tempting that is and that makes me very tempted to spy on our house. You cannot put yourself or our marriage in that dangerous situation ever again! Ever! Not at our house, not at his apartment! I hope for a day that you say you didn’t contact him at all in any way. Not because I don’t want you to have a friend but because of the way it makes me FEEL. What’s more important to you? My feelings or his friendship?

And if your relationship is just a friendship then he should and I want to be copied on all email exchanges and text messages which should be no problem for anyone because there are no inappropriate feelings expressed. Our successful marriage depends on us meeting each others needs in full, not someone meeting some of your needs and me doing others. Just like the flirting thing for me, I inappropriately allowed another person to meet that need for me. That was NOT ok by you was it? And I never did anything with her that approaches the frequency and emotion you have with OM. I should have brought it to you and we learned how to do that together. We have achieved this. You need to do that with me. That is what will make us ONE- forever!

When you asked me about my priorities Wednesday, the reason I said “being obedient to God” was because I know that helped me see the error of my former ways and gives me strength to make decisions to avoid sinful behavior as much as humanly possible. I want to do that for our marriage.

After she read the letter she was really mad, then upset, then said Well thanks for not having any faith in me and was getting all pissy. I told her I gave her 6 months to figure this out and she is getting impatient with me after only 17 days!? She said I haven't been to lunch with you in 9 months and this is not helping us fall back in love. I asked again for her email passwords and cell phone ebilling login.

She admitted two things to me 1) when we were not being intimate (but sleeping in same bed) she used to lie awake thinking about having sex with me. 2)she accidentally called him my name once during an argument they had. HA. sweet revenge.

We kept talking and we ended up in the car kissing to a favorite song. I asked her if he propositions her she could say no? Her: "Absolutely. I don't want him in that way anymore." Me: "And if I proposition you?" Her: "Absolutely!"

Last night she showed me her cell phone call to him again that was 3 minutes long. And she told me all about the email exchange they had yesterday that I had already read for myself. But I asked her if she had lunch plans with him today and she lied about it because her last email to him was "yes, when and where?"

Playing with fire I know. Plan B still a faint possibility.

HUGE BLAZING RED FLAG, bp. My WH did the same thing to me......4 times. But I did not know about MB or withdrawal or plan A or plan B so I stupidly trusted him and he did what it appears your WW is doing to you. I could have written your post yesterday, because that was my perception, too. But he had just gone further underground. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Read up on both Plan A AND Plan B. Which ever one is for you, more experienced posters will help you with the steps, but I'll cheer you on. I do know how you're feeling.

Ace

bp:

Well, I certainly got the way wrong impression from your post yesterday, then.

Question:

Why not call the Harleys?

If you really believe that your W intends 2 recommit 2 you and she's not just snowing you so she can keep the OM indefinitely, why not work with an expert?

This stuff is way "closer 2 home" (literally) than anything I ever had 2 deal with.

I mean that in a very cautionary manner.

And Mel:

My deepest apologies. I was wrong about this sitch.

At least it looks that way. It'd be nifty if I'm wrong about this reassessment.

-ol' 2long

It's such a roller coaster isn't it? Two steps forward and three steps back. There is a dynamic I've seen occur in these situations. It's where the BS becomes to the affair what the OP was to the marriage. When the marriage heats up again....sometimes the WS feels like their "cheating" on the OP and the "newness" is now back in marriage instead of the affair. Preparing for plan B is always a good idea....but you sound like you're managing your emotions pretty well....and Plan A is alot less risky than Plan B. Be ready but hang tight is MHO.

No apology needed, 2Long, thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok the A is not over I know, but can anyone comment on my letter to her? Each time I bring out some truth like this in a letter she cries. Isn't this the fog lifting somewhat? I think the guilt is starting to take hold. When I got home from work she planted the longest kiss on me. During lunch she said all she was doing was thinking of our anniversary. But thats not really true because she lied about his emailing and lunch invitation. But yesterday when she lied about his emails she came clean today with full truth.

The part today that I really needed was kept unanswered. it went like this

OM I wanted to know if you would come and see me at lunch?
WW: See you or to "be" with you?
OM: Well I said see me. I know what you are going through, its ok.
WW: we can do lunch, when where?

See I didn''t get the answer that she would give if he had asked her about "being" with her. Argh!

She did choose lunch with me over lunch with him too. And between them I guess they chose lunch instead of s-e-x. But its too close for comfort.

Here is a plan B question.. Do I need to present her with proof if I go to plan B? It won't make much sense to her if I just go plan B given her "bogus" status.

Present her with proof of what exactly?

BP, in my opinion, you are wasting alot of time pretending that something is not really going on when you know it is. You don't need her admission to know the truth. So it is a waste of time pretending like you believe her.

I think you should just tell her you know the affair is still ongoing and how much it hurts you. Tell her that your marriage does not have room for 3 people and you cannot live like this much longer.

It does no good to plead with or try to reason with a wayward mind. She does not use REASON, so you can see it does not work. And it makes even less sense to pretend like she is not having a flagrant affair while having her cake and eating it too. She has not chosen you over him. She has chosen BOTH of you, and has no motivation to give up either.

Just an idea...

How about calling up and interviewing a couple real estate agents to help you sell your home and get the heck out of dodge??

I don't believe recovery is possible in your current home because OM has tainted it AND he is too close.

Moving is necessary for your recovery and it MAY be a project that you and your wife can get excited about undertaking TOGETHER...(at least that's the way you present it).

I suggest you attempt to undertake this in an enthusiastic manner and not as a demand. If she protests, merely indicate, with a smile, that's it's kinda outrageous for her to expect you two to recovery in THAT house. OM's been in YOUR room with her, he drives by EVERYDAY and it's kinda far from work. Besides, it's not like this is your dream home you expected to live in forever (I hope it's not)...it's TIME to move anyway. No time like the present.

Mr. Wondering

I think Melody has presented a very accurate summary of where you are, BP.


Good advice. BP, you say:


IMHO, this is not the fog lifting, it is your wife manipulating you. And why not? It seems to be working.


BP, at this point, your wife is behaving selfishly. She is lying by omission when it suits her, in order to keep both fish on the line. You need to find a way to motivate her to cut the OM loose.

I really think that you should call the Harleys on this one. From what I understand, SH is very good at motivating a WS to recommit to the marriage. I wouldn't even think of beginning a Plan B without professional coaching.

Just my .02

PK

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. Again if the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would be so accepting as you? A marriage is not about 3 people. You judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions speak volume about her lack of respect for you and your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

I agree Bryan. Hey, you are not around much...but I want to thank you as your straight talking helped me through a tough time when I first got here.

Hello all,
Thanks for your support. The past week has been very good to us. WW has committed to us in many ways. For our anniversary on 1/12 she gave me a card that says 17 things she wants for us to achieve TOGETHER in 2008 and that she looks forward to making another list in 2009. Indulge me k? Here is the list...
take romantic vacation together
install hot tub together
workout together
attend church
buy a new car for you together
train our crazy dog
paint our house together
finish master bedroom together
plan our financial future together
go camping hiking together
bike rides with kids
family vacation together
speak each others love languages
speak our childrens love languages
make our house a home for our family
come up with 5 long term goals
be the best parents we can be

And in this card that she made for me she included her email password.

Then something great happened 2 days ago. The OM sent her an email saying the girl he is now dating looks just like my WW. So he has found something to move on to and my WW said she feels nothing but happy for him (and slightly depressed about it being over). Last night we were reminded of a time about 3 weeks ago and what she said was "Oh yeah that was the night I had my emotional breakdown (over NC with OM) and it was all for nothing!" And then she grabbed my hand and gave me a kiss.

Things are going excellent. She is finding ways daily to restore my trust. She is saying and doing all kinds of things to rebuild trust and have a better marriage. Lately we really enjoy being with each other so much. Nothing but good news. Thanks again to all you MBers', Dr Harley, and God.

Oh, man, that is GREAT NEWS, BP!!! I am so happy for you!

Congratulations. I am surprised but quite happy for you.

Good for you, BP. Be guarded, be careful, be aware of the rollercoaster jiggles and reoccuring withdrawal symptoms.

For us, withdrawal happened for over 6 months but we didn't know what it was until a year ago when I registered for MB. I falsely felt recovered during that time and it could have been disastrous when I let my guard down. (In fact, that's why we had 4 D-Days.)

My WH had given me all the passwords to his accounts....and then started new ones. And he seemed sooooo committed to me/us. But...... he was just further underground.

Don't mean to scare you, BP, but you sound so much like us. (Except we didn't have MB until I found the books just before D-Day #4.)

Thanks and please keep us updated on your progress.

Ace

^^^^^

B, are you sure?

No, Mel, not sure. But I put 2 and 2 together, BigPicture/BigMistake. Plus they have counseled with the Harleys, married 17 years, there was an affair, and now NC, and SF problems.

bigpicture,

I think you're hanging on to any shred of hope you can hang onto. I know, I was there.

But you're having the wool get pulled over your eyes. Your WW is cake eating. She's keeping the OM on the backburner and telling you stuff that gives you hope. It's a horrible and cruel game she's playing, but there is still contact and this crap about him getting a girlfriend is a possibly good development, but you have no way of knowing if it's true or not. She must swear no contact for life and actually do it.

It's simple to take steps to make that happen. Block his email for starters.

You have to take some hard steps to draw boundaries if she breaks the contact.

bigp,

I just read through a bit more of your thread and offer this to you.

I believe there is a very real and very hard crash for betrayed spouses who have a WW return. I believe that there is a lot of energy spent on "reconquering" the WW, getting her to return, and then experiencing a brief honemoon period before reality sets in.

The reality is that you've taken back a cheating wife, who has slept with and done things with another man and you must now fight your own crash over the WW coming home.

I haven't been through recovery, but I imagine this is what it's like since I'm sure I would have had A LOT of resentment to work through if my WW had come back to me.

It's been 3 years and there's times when I don't have fond feelings of rainbows and bunnies filling her days. Quite the opposite.

I can imagine anger and resentment that a betrayed husband has to deal with.

Others can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I can't see how a betrayed spouse can just put this behind them easily and move on.

What you're going through right now is taking its toll on you whether you realise it or not. The day will come when broken NC is one broken NC too many and you will be fed up beyond belief that she continues to disrespect you over and over again.

Just keep in mind that you're in a fog of your own right now and that there is a "mission" that is driving you and that mission is to get your wife to come back to your marriage 100%.

You may get exactly what you wish for. And that will bring baggage all of its own.

Mel and Believer,

NO NO NO NOT same person.

I already made my mistakes . (like I won't make anymore ha ha :D)

Oh, good to hear that. I was really afraid it was your wife.