Truly I do...

I implore all of you out there...

calling for
begging for
demanding for
and asking for...(actually asking for is OK)

but all of you doing any of the above with your WS....in regards for NO CONTACT

to
SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE...

AND

I mean it with all the love I have .....

for your sanity
for your dignity
for your emotional well being.....

stop demanding no contact with a WS and the OP....

for a million reasons....
but lets hit some of them...

lets go over the fact that it takes gobs and gobs of insidious time and brain cells for a WS to engage in the affair...

some are in the form of compartalmentalizing...
they truly seperate their affair actions from having anything to do with spouse or family...they truly train their brains to believe that they are two seperate worlds...not having anything to do with the other....

some are in the form of it just happened
it was meant to be
it was Karma and the universe aligning so that fate stepped in


some rationalize it by villianizing the crap out of BS...
he or she is this
or that
he or she won't let me do this or that
he or she doesn't care...blah blah blah blah...

sucks sucks sucks sucks....
alllllllllllllllllllllllll of it...
sucks......

whats that strange noise in the background after D-day.
why it's the sound of the great THIS SUCKS machine...

and while we all wish think and truly believe that surely upon a WS being caught...being busted...spilling their guts whatever the catalyst for D-Day that magically and logically

NO CONTACT IS INSTANT....

but it's not usually.....

there's too much collateral damage going on for that to happen

there's too much f--- up brain cells engaged to rationalize the affair to imagine that instant no contact will occur...

because the truth is that in the majority of cases there is no instant no contact...

and who knows this better than anyone...

well the master mind behind this site and plan A....
who developed plan a
built
10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000%
on negotiating

NO CONTACT...

now certainly that is the final goal..

but it doesn't come from demanding
from begging
from pleading
from ultimatums...

it comes in its real form when the WS sees the value of no contact.....

look if your posts talks about a recent D-day...
then you most likely should expect contact......

if you understand plan A then contact will should not surprise you.....

believe me more tragic than a marriage that doesn't recover is one that recovers falsely...

under false belief of no contact..because it was demanded..
under false belief in no contact because of threats of punishments...etc...

false belief in the value of no contact is the worst thing out there....

it takes time for a WS to truly wrestle with and process the stark horrible reality of their actions...

not processable instantly
not fixable with just d-day

true recovery takes time....
true re-commitment to marriage and its meaning takes time...

you don't want anyone forced in to it...


speak the pain of contact
speak the pain of their actions...
but don't demand
don't beg
don't threaten.....

shut yer pie hole...
bit your tongue....

and let them see you....
not someone whose words they can use against you....

ARK^^

Well said! Kudos to you Ark

So well said...I wish I read this on Dday...

My story proves all you said...

On Dday I begged H to stay...H moved out to a hotel with OW.
Two days after Dday, my inlaws begged and cried to WH to come back...His sister and sister in law begged him also...

H came back on that day...but his heart stayed with OW for a whole year if not longer and I'm still now sure if he is still harboring resentment that he was "forced" to come home...

There was long and painful withdrawals and two contacts after he came back...Those days and nights were so painful for both of us...

Intuitively though I did a good plan A when my emotions got even enough...And I started to see my real H more and more now, after almost 18 months after Dday and 9 months after his second attempt of contact (which is the final contact and OW never responded), we are just starting our true recovery and our recovery has been very slow and H is still shutting down and doesn't feel safe talking about his feelings with me...

Begging and reasoning and using his parents, etc to force H to go stay and go NC is one thing I regret...It's not the right way and it leads to a very slow and painful recovery if recovery ever happens...

arc^^, you have such wisedom and compassion, I hope you keep on posting and helping us. I think we still need a lot of guidance at this time, with H doing a lot and feeling genuinly sorry day by day, he is still not expressing his feelings to me and we are still staying at the surface of this recovey...Any advice and guidance will be so appreciated...

Snow

Ark,

I don't disagree with the intent of your post, but think it may be misunderstood, especially by BH's, who I'm afraid will read your post to mean they should just "hump up" and take it.

There is the "stick" portion of Plan A, also, and IMHO, many BH's miss golden opportunities through indecision and fear to break up their WW's A.

There are many examples currently here on GQ of BH's that look in the rear view mirror after 3-6+ months to see nothing but a few dozen pages of posts for their lack of meaningful effort.

I COMPLETELY agree with making yourself over into the best spouse you can be, but I can't really support putting up with allowing a WS to continue to disrespect you by rubbing your face in an ongoing A, without making a serious attempt to stop the A.

I really am not arguing your point, just hoping you will expand on it.

I for one do not see plan A having anything to do with making over oneself...

plan A to me is allllllllll about keeping lines of comminication open...

demanding no contact....
does not work

demanding to stop seeing the OP
talking to the OP doesn't work..

it becomes a futile powerstruggle...

the WS sees no reason to end contact...in fact they frantically seek closure...or repair...or worse ways to take the whole affair underground...

plan A is not about taking anything..

it is about speaking of the pain and horrors of continued in other ways than

don't
stop

I am alll for breaking up an affair..

but demanding it doesnt work....

here's what the good doc says about plan ASo, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.


there is nothing in my thoughts about rolling belly up..

ARK

Thank you Arkie!!!

Operative word: N E G O T I A T E

I'm sorry, but we obviously see this from different perspectives. It appears that you're taking one aspect of Plan A, and emphasizing it to the exclusion of all others.

Which ones and how so?

I thought it was obvious ...



Ark also emphasizes "negotiation", which I took to be an offshoot of "communication".

No mention of improving yourself, working on what you may have been doing wrong in the M pre-A, trying to meet the EN's that are currently being met by the OP, and most importantly ... no mention at all of "exposure".

In my case, "actions" spoke much louder than "words", so IMHO, communication is down the Plan A priority list a little.

Great post ARK... but I almost skipped it because of the title. I thought perhaps you were posting to one of the trolls and I usually try to avoid the confrontational posts and those that get into huge debate, I don't have the time or stomache for it right now.

You said it so well though. I am proud ;-) to admit that I've been plan Aing my WH and I see some progress.

Thanks for your sharing!!

Soon

You're my hero, Ark...

The point of Plan A is to make remaining married a better option than throwing the BS away for OP.

When we talk about self improvement, what we really mean is meeting ENs of the WS as much as they allow and killing all love busters in ourself so that the WS's LB$ can build a bigger balance.

Demanding, arguing and shouting in anger will NOT win the WS back and can only cause the chasm to widen between the WS and BS.

What Dr Harley says makes his method different than every one else's methods is that instead of trying to fix the marriage, he attempts to reestablish the love between H & W.

If a BH can make his WW feel that she is in love with him again, she will end the affair more readily than if every moment together is spent trying to dig into problems and trying to fix them.

Fixing it is part of recovery, not Plan A. Unless the marriage is saved, there will be nothing left to fix.

Respect cannot be demanded. Demanding is itself disrespectful.

What really stands in the way is pride.

Mark

demanding no contact may not work for some...but it does work for some others.

Well intentioned post Ark.

Repent and turn away from sin, don't "negotiate" with it.

Agree to the BS's conditions (not open to negotiation) for trying recovery and not proceeding directly to "no-go" divorce.

Negotiate no contact?

What is the purpose of a No Contact letter, to stipulate when contact will be tolerated as they negotiate frequency and intensity?

"Begging, groveling, imploring, cake-walking enablement," etc. I am WITH you. Those "BS" activities should NOT be engaged in and if they are, "shut your pie hole!" y'all!

"Get with the program or don't let the door hit you in the [censored] as I swiftly close both my pie hole and it."

Hey I agree with FH!

no rev..
just adressing the hundreds of posts on here with BS SHOCKED that WS are still in contact with WS...

it's rare that saying no more contact works...

great when it does...but not the norm...other wise Dr. Harley wouldnt have said what he said about plan A...

ark

foreverhers...

here's a little secret...

I think no contact letters are bunk...

and when you MAKE and FORCE an active WS write one..

highschool in my opinion...

no contact letters can be fine ONCE the WS embraces the value of no contact...but by then what's the point...since it is the ACT of no contact that speaks...not a letter or email....

false no contact letters...fodder to bond the OP and WS even more...

wah wah wah they will cry to the OP...he/she maaadddeeee me write this...
I had no choice..

blech...

no contact letters in my opinion....bunk...but it's not my site or program so I don't waste too much energy on them...

ark

Might surprise you, ark, but I agree with you on this matter.

I agree that NC letters are not part of Plan A, they are part of recovery. Dr Harley believes in NC letters.

Actually, given that Plan A is designed to attract a spouse back who is in an active affair as well as self improvement for the BS, I agree that NC have no part of Plan A.

Ark:

I appreciate you acknowledging the above.

------------------------------------------------------------

I want to express my opinion that the NO CONTACT LETTER is an ESSENTIAL PART of the MBer's Program for ending an affair and should be NON-NEGOTIABLE. The Chapter in which the NO CONTACT LETTER is presented in SAA is entitled: HOW TO END AN AFFAIR...

For my H, this was very hard to do..he resisted and resisted... and when he was able to accomplish this, I knew that he was serious in his ATTEMPT to end the affair.

Yes, the NC LETTER does not have to be followed and contact can be resumed.

IMO, though, it serves many valuable purposes.

For me, it SYMBOLIZED and EVIDENCED by H's seriousness. It was a STEP out of AFFAIRLAND. It was a STEP out of "I DON'T LOVE YOU ANYMORE, IT'S OVER" LAND. It was a STEP in my direction. It was a STEP towards home. NOT JUST WORDS ANYMORE...

The OW HATED IT..that if he could write that letter, saying he loved his wife, maybe she REALLY was not his TRUE LOVE...

I am a BIG FAN of the NC LETTER...

SECONDLY, Steve Harley himself told me from the start that PLAN A was about ME, making myself into a BETTER PERSON and a BETTER WIFE...may not be so for others..but that definitely was the case FOR ME....

I agree with everything else you had to say, ARK..but these are a couple of my points that I needed to make...

Plan A is about negotiating NO CONTACT, asking for a NO CONTACT LETTER is required in the NEGOTIATION. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Well we can have a discussion about semantics and timing and what constitutes the end of Plan A and the start of recovery if you like Mimi.....

It's not MY PROGRAM. It's Dr. Harley's. Recovery begins after the NC LETTER has been sent.

I am a HUGE FAN of nc letters. [so are the Harleys] The letters are a good will gesture on the part of the WS towards the BS and tell the OP the affair is OVER. A WS cannot be "forced" to send one, and no one has ever suggested any such thing. Nor is it a GUARANTEE of anything; nor does it claim to be.

A nc letter SYMBOLIZES the WS' sincerity and commitment towards recovery. If it is insincere, it is worthless. But, it is ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY. No one can "FORCE" a WS to do anything. And no one has ever claimed it is a guarantee, it is only designed to be a good will gesture towards the BS.

This gesture is very important to many BS, and a good step in the recovery process so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Dr. Harley
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

CHAPTER 5 in SURVIVING AN AFFAIR: "How Should Affairs End?"

My H was just like Kevin in that chapter, wanting to let the OW down easily.

Exactly like Kevin, my H resisted writing the letter, thinking that it would be "CRUEL".

As Dr. Harley indicated, THE LETTER HAD TO BE WRITTEN.."to completely close the door on her hope of a future relationship....

I ALSO NEED TO SEE HIM WRITE IT...

Eventually, I heard my H say it to her on the phone...

I NEEDED IT IN BLACK AND WHITE...

Mimi - I think we are actually in total agreement.

Great BIG K! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am one of those that MEL is talking about. I needed that letter. I couldn't count on my H's WORDS for anything..for a long time..he even told me "MY ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN MY WORDS"...

I also believe that the NC letter is a crucial, not to be missed step...Mr. W and I did not initially think so or write one since the OM ended it very abruptly with me...We felt that we could skip this step...Fast Forward 9 months into NC, we had just returned from a vacation in Jamaica, the very next morning OM sends an email...At that point we sent a NC letter, realizing that by not doing so before that we had left a door cracked for OM...The letter took care of things...We've not heard from him again...Thank God!

Mrs. W

guys...

this is the way it is...
it is my personal thing about no contact letters..
AND as a guest at this site...

I keep my pie hole shut about that when directly advising anyone...
and certainly never tell them not to..

BUT
be sure that my heart breaks when I hear of people sending no contact letters very very early after discovery day....
AND
then come here and talk about continued contact...and should we write another no contact letter....

sad....

no contact letters have great meaning when they are written by the FWS who fully believes in no contact....
but when forced by a emotionally distraught BS and a WS doing damage control...

oy veh...

there is no controversy in my post....I would never ever advise someone NOT to do part of the program...
and even though myrev...wants to make my post so very lacking...I am only addressing one aspect of plan A and certainly not making in the only part or layer....

don't beg and grovel for no contact..is my point..
change your language and words so the hear the value and see the true destruction of it.....

and more importantly don't be shocked when you discover new recent contact...and post how you are ready to give and go to plan B....ten days in to the whole mess...

plan A very much addressed continued contact...with the goal being no contact...

my my these boards have changed....

ark

Well, you certainly seem to be spinning a different version now, but "IF" this is what you meant all along ... then I just misunderstood your initial posts, and agree completely with your current position as quoted above.

there's really no if..

all along I was and am addressing the aspect of BS demanding no contact with WS....

and my position that in plan A...it usually doesn't work that way....

that's one aspect of plan A..that has many many many actions to it.....

if I had a nickel for every BS lamenting why their WS didn't go no contact immediately....and that shortly after d day they are ready to go to plan B ...all because of contact....and or non commitment to the marriage from a WS..
i'd surely and sadly be rich...

there is no change in this version on my part...
I just didn't address allll the other aspects of plan A..

but lord knows I'm a huge plan A advocate....

on many many levels...

there is no spinning...since I have no agenda except to try to help...
there's no need to spin anything...

it's alllllllllllllllll opinion

ark

there are some FWS on here...others that I know (including my ex that keeps trying to weasel her way back into my life) that wished the BS took a stronger stand and made demands. I know for myself and a few others that until the demand of NC was made...contact continued. Some people just need to be shoved in the right direction.

It may not be the Harley way...but it works for some. I am not hesitant to recommend that push to someone if it appears as though it would help.

Although we did not know about the Marriage Builders books until a month or two after D-Day #3, my WH offered to write a no-contact email that I approved and we sent it while OW was on vacation.

When she read it, she assumed I had written it because, for some reason, it actually sounded more like I HAD written it.

Then I did my fake test from one of 'their' secret accounts (I then had the password for) and she did tell me/him "no, do you know how much this would hurt Ace", but she did not forward the email to me as I had begged her to after D-Day 2. I let it go, but cut off contact with her the following week (Labor Day).

Nearly 3 months later on D-Day 4, when I caught DH trying to see if she was on line playing 'their game' (and the history button said he was lying), I began to get nervous that she had not sent me that evidence back when I did the fake test.

So I sent her a snail mail card and handwritten letter (my H initialed each page), asking about the 2 calls we had gotten from her area code and if her H might know about my H and if might be trying to contact him/us or 'get him'. I asked her again if she would let me know if WH tried to contact her, explaining about the online game incident and she said "My grandfather said not to make promises you may not be able to keep."

I went nuts. I was nearly hysterical when I showed my H her email.

He set his jaw and said "let's send her a handwritten letter"....and he scrawled out a 3 liner. I sent it with a copy of HNHN with highlighted photo copies of certain pages. (I knew about the MB books and website, but had not discovered these forums at the time.)

She thanked me and seemed resigned to the fact that the future fantasy they had mapped out was indeed over. FINALLY. (Now, FWH says he is totally repulsed by the idea.)

Both NC letters were my husband's idea....even before we knew about MB. IF he had handwritten the first one, it might have been more effective as she was familiar with my emailing style from our 'friendly chats'.

Actually, my trying to be her e-friend played a vital part when we decided to expose 3 months later. In going back over her chatty emails, I discovered she had told me what her husband did for a living, and when I discovered his name, I could then do some searches to find his work address and phone number.

From our experience, I agree that a forced no-contact letter too early may be detrimental to the recovery process. But, as already mentioned, when the WS chooses to write/send one, not only does it show the BS that the WS has closure, but it slams the door shut on the chance of a future rekindling that my still linger in the OP’s mind. At least it did in our case.

Ace

I tell ya, I had to reply to this because of this right here:



I am not offering advice right now
just remembering what "it" was like, for me personally

sanity - completely shot after D day
felt insane
emotionally driven
standing in a puddle of my own fresh blood
it was so impossible to draw a breath, my lack of sanity was not possible to address
I was "code blue" .... I felt I was dying

dignity - I felt exposed to the world as a piece of human trash - I had been thrown away by my husband .... therefore, I am garbage
when one feels like garbage, dignity does not seem like a realistic obtainable state of being

emotional well being - I knew I was not well
so I suppose there was a sliver of sanity, I mean when you know you are crazy you are less crazy than when you did not know you are crazy.... right?

so, in remembering back to those days
I can see where this advice would fall upon deaf ears - someone who is in "code blue" does not care if their clothes are torn off and 20 strangers can view tattered gray underwear

but Arkie is not talking to those folks still in the ER after D day

I believe Arkie is addressing something different entirely

sanity
dignity
emotional well being

a BS who possesses the above qualities is far more attractive

than a BS who appears to be

insane
undignified
emotionally unbalanced

and the whole idea of Plan A is to be as Plan Attractive as possible

so we, as MBers can anticipate the newbie BS to be insane, undignified, emotionally wrecked

but once the BS is out of immediate danger they can be guided into becoming (once again) what makes them attractive as a spouse

and that includes shutting yer pie hole

translated to MB language
stop behaviors that are
demanding
controlling
disrespectful
undignified

and especially futile crazy-making

Has anyone ever tried to get a frightened animal (or child) to come to them?

think about what works

And Arkie - it has been at least a MONTH since I got to I&D something juicy

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I like that, as long as you don't offer candy or pats on the head :-)

Let me tell you about a strange NC letter situation.

I had someone I was working with whose wife had ended her affair, but was very hesitant to write a NC letter because she thought she would be made fun of due to the fact that the other man had dumped her.

So, she re-contacted the other man, got him interested in her again (no sex), then dumped him after 2 weeks. She then merrily wrote the no-contact letter.

She has some image problems :-)

Glad to see you posting, Pep.

Gimble

Glad to see you posting, too, Gimble. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TA

Thanks! TA

Gimble

Does this advice pertain to plan B when divorce proceedings are about to start?I worry that he will take my silence as not wanting him back.Also I know my lawyer is going to be ruthless thats her reputation!He filed for divorce.

Glad to see all you experienced posters posting.

I agree ... All I can do is go with what worked for us (admittedly this was before I knew of MB ... he11, it was within 15 minutes of confirmation of the A) ... but I told FogFree that I loved her, but I WOULD NOT share her. She had a decision to make, right then and there, and her answer would decide where she spent the night.

I can honestly say that it provided the "shock" necessary to cut through some of the fog and get her to recommit to our M. I also confronted OM by email and phone (he lived 3 states away) and DEMANDED NC ... here is my "gut-instinct" NC letter that I attached to some of their emails I had just discovered and sent it from her work laptop so he knew I had the proof (keep in mind this was before I even knew of MB):



He did call us and once on the phone, he started out trying to be a jerk, but after he heard what I had in mind for his world, he couldn't backpedal quick enough and FogFree got to hear how she meant nothing to him and he was ready to throw her away in a heartbeat to save his sorry [censored]. She got a good dose of humility when she realized how cheaply she was viewed and used. That part was better than I'd hoped as he showed his true colors as a world class slimeball and she got an expensive lesson from the "School of Hard Knocks".

Admittedly, FogFree broke NC twice within the next 3 days to attempt "closure", but the OM did not respond to either attempt. My guess is that he thought I had sent them to him trying to get him to break NC, since he knew I had access to her laptop and cell phone. Shortly thereafter, the fog started to clear and I consider us to be nearly recovered after 6 months, and I think those who have read some of FogFree's posts here will agree.

I will admit that our situation was not nearly as bad as many have had to face, nor nearly as long in duration, but I have never questioned my pro-active stance in DEMANDING NC immediately, and would have made her leave the marital home that night had she not agreed to it.

I now know that this didn't follow MB principles, BUT IT WORKED VERY WELL FOR US, and even after I've learned of these great principles, I still advocate reacting from a position of strength and confidence for BH's, and I agree that the begging and pleading are turn offs for WW's.

Anyway, I was just offering up a little perspective on where we come from and why I believe as I do.

wow, MyRev - you are my MB hero!

I think this sort of thing works because *some* WS will see it as the BS being willing to fight for them - "gee, I guess I must have meant more to BS than I thought. I must be more special than I thought, if BS is willing to fight for me that way."

And just as happened in your case, MyRev, the WS also gets to see that the OP will *not* fight for them at all but instead just runs away squealing like a pig.

That can be one hazard of Plan A - especially if it goes on too long - the way it can make a BS look way too passive and way too willing to eat sh*t sandwiches every day if only the WS doesn't get too mad at them. That simply destroys any last shred of respect that the WS might have had for the BS, and you can't love someone when you don't respect them.

Sometimes fighting back IS the way to go. If you're not willing to stand up and fight for your own family, well, what the h*ll WOULD you be willing to stand up and fight for??

Mulan>named for the Disney heroine "who fought for her family"

edited to add: Sorry, I guess this is not exactly on topic for "shutting one's pie hole", is it?

Hi My Rev,

I blackmailed my WH's OW after D-Day #3, not realizing it was called that at the time.

But 6 months later after finding MB, I violated my oath before she did hers when I realized we had to expose in order for us to begin rebuilding trust.

Of course, like yours, our case is different too. I had naively believe their remorse and verbal phone pledges to just stop contact on D-Day #1 and forgave immediatly without just compensation. (Didn't find MB for many months later.) Hence, 3 more D-Days in the next 6 months.

What works for one couple will not necessarily work in the same way for another. Generally speaking, however, I see how the MB way is generally the best way to operate.

Like for you and Fog Free, we did what we thought was best for us at the time, trusting and hoping it would work out for the best.

So far it has.

Ace

myrev...

going directly to the OP with actions as you did...
is not the same as a BS saying over and over...to a WS

you must cut contact
you must cut contact
you must cut...

that's what I am addressing...

there is no me telling A N Y O N E that it has to be my way...

I am always overjoyed when it ends....no matter how it get there...
but the saying it overandoverandoverandover...

typically
does not work

pep...I got a call friday am from the hospitals birthing center..offering me a position to go deliver some babies...

mr ark n I are going out to lovely spot for dinner to discuss this possible change....

I am excited about nursing for the first time in a long time...

ark