Well, this is it. My place. My thread.

What happens here, stays here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Any one care for a drink? I could use one.

I've been in withdrawal for 3 days. Haven't spoken to my H in 3 days.

It started when I was telling him about a trigger. He was being sweet and apolgetic but it just felt canned to me. He said "he understood". He had a few other short sentences as well for me. It felt like he was just trying to appease me. No deep sorrow for what I was trying to share.

I let there be silence in between my feelings that I was telling him about. He didn't try to fill the silence. He didn't know what to say, he says. I clammed up. I felt so alone. And I was tired of telling him how he could me, so I didn't.

I do not do this all the time. The withdrawal states like this are far between.

Explain to him how I am feeling and not clam up you say? I have. Over and over again. One of my IC's (I need lots <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) told me not to repeat myself, or I'll sound like I'm a nag and being demanding. So, I shut my trap. Unable to speak to him about anything right now.

He's tried to get through a few times but I plain just don't want to talk to him.

I'm tired and need a break. I really feel drained.

How's that for starters?

Getting the boys to bed so mama can have some friggin PEACE! Be back soon!

PS-with drink in hand!! Cheers!

Yay! My first victim....Errr... I mean poster. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Take your time LaLa. If I don't catch ya tonight, I'll find ya on someone's else's thread tommorow....lol....

Your husband was sitting there recounting the things he's done and feeling almost overwhelmed with the haunting of it.

I'm sorry it felt like abandonment. I was at a loss for words.

I hope you come out of your withdrawal soon. It fearful to me. Had to find a safe place for a child today.

Mopey - I'll join ya for a drink.

And threadjacks are ok here right?

Ah dang Windstopped. Why do you have to go and be so nice when I wuz just getting good at ignoring you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry I'm in this place. Give me a little while to think. K?

Take all the time ya need....

What'll ya have BK. I've got white zinfidel (almost gone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) but I can run out and get ya some tough guy drink if ya want.

T/J's? Are ya kiddin me. DEFINITELY! And yankee bashin too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wat up Skinsgal!

What's your pleasure? Coffee, tea, valium? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ohhhhhhhhh Yankee Bashing? I'm IN.

How bout a nice cold beer. I presume windstopped will be joining us?

Hi Mopey:

I'm sorry you're feeling bad right now...but a thought struck me when reading your post:


Sounds like a big DJ on your part. No way you can know exactly what WindStopped was experiencing right then...just your perception that what he did do was not emotional (??) enough to convince you what he was feeling was genuine sorrow.

LA and Noodle and others here say that your feelings and emotions do not control your spouse's emotions/feelings...isn't that what enmeshment is??

If you needed to verify what WindStopped was experiencing at that time, why couldn't you just ask him to describe what was going through his mind right then (and trust that his words accurately describe his feelings bc there's no way to get inside his head), instead of trying to interpret his actions and assign meaning to your interpretations to ascertain the level of his sorrow/feelings?

LoBoy

Beer coming up BK.

Windstopped can join us if he'd like.

How about pesky Texans, BK????

Mopey, try this: 1:1:1 Vodka, Kahlua and Bailey's. Pour over ice and stir like crazy.

Well I could get myself in a lot of trouble if I diss Texans.


Wouldn't that make you stir crazy?

LostBoy....

Did you come over to 2x4 me, or did you come for a drink? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No seriously, I'm listening.

I didn't ask him that night how he feels. Probably because he told me he was at a loss for words.

And LB.....you're right, I cannot know what is going on inside his head unless he tells me. I will ask next time. However, didn't you ever get the feeling that you knew when your wife seemed remorseful, and when she didn't?

LoBoy - thanks for your input. I believe we have serious enmeshment issues.

I think this is supposed to be a fun thread though.


/sigh/ I can almost taste a margarita (on the rocks, 1800) right now. I better find another sponsor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mopey, BigK LOVES FOSTERS of course!!! That IS "Australian for Beer" yanno!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't let him fool ya with his "Yankee Bashin'"...He calls us Belles "Yankees"...AS IF!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'll take a Gentleman Jack and Diet Coke please! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. Do you think it would help if WindStopped posted and read here more often? I know that that has done wonders for us...

That sounds yummy NTL. If I hadn't already had a drink I just might go to the store and get the stuff to make that concoction (sp?). I'll have to wait til next time.

Stir crazy.....lol....

Texans....hmmmmm.....yup, we can pick on them too. They probably won't even know we're talking bout em. They're too busy chasing cats.

Well hey there, LoBoy! Nice to see you. How are you doin?

Mopey, like W2S, still has down moments because of the pain we've caused them. As a WS, it is our job to help them overcome these fears and sorrow. Windstopped will find a way to break through, though. They will figure it out together, right guys! It has to be hard at times, especially when men and women express themselves so differently!

If only men were as smart as us GODDESSES, it would be much easier!!! (Baaaahahahaha...now you KNOW I'm just teasin' fellas) OK BK...have at me! The heck with the lumber, get out the bricks!

Emeshment.....hang on.....I have to look it up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Can I just state for the record I would not be found DEAD with a Fosters.

Mrs W CROWS about being a southernor but she is married to and is therefore herself a DAMN YANKEE by associaqtion. DO NOT let her fool you Mopey.

LaLa is begging for an [censored] whooping. W2S please bring your wife into line!

Mopey:


No 2x4's, just trying to help. And I will join u for a beer, just as soon as I finish my soda. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Well, I thought I did at the time, but as it turned out, I think I was just a naive/trusting dork that never really understood what her true motivations were.

LoBoy

Is this where the party is? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We're all out of coke so I'm off to throw a shot of Jack Daniels into my diet mountain dew. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Fosters is a collection of beer slops that we export to silly yankees...

Well I'm here to chew gum and kick [censored] and I'm all out of gum.

and W2S - LaLa needs an [censored] whooping if you'd be so kind as to oblige.

Vladie - EXACTLY right

See, most times I just take people at what they say, instead of looking for underlying meaning... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hang on Mrs. W. I have to call my fantasy butler in to help with all the drinks. Coming right up. I'll get em to pick up some Fosters too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Is that Belles, as in Southern Belles?

I would love it if Windstopped posted here more. I know he reads occassionally and posts every now and then. I thought it was cool that you and Mr. W do that together occassionally. However, I don't think my H would find it recreationally enjoying tho. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good thing-you can't chew and type at the same time!

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

BK - Are you kidding me? - You've seen her when she's angry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You damn skippy! Helles Belles don'cha'know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh and SHADDUP BIG KANGAROONA!!! Don't you have an Awesome Blossom with your name on it somewhere? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Hi Resonance:

I'm doing VERY WELL, thank you.

NTL:


Isn't that a Mud Slide??? If you like that, you should try drinking a Duck Fart <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Equal parts Crown Royal, Kahula, and Baily's shaken on ice...very smooth.

LoBoy

Mopey, I forgot to tell you that the concoction (??) is called Iron Butterfly.

Right now I am having an expertly poured Guinness...
Same as BK on the Foster. Since he does not want to offend Texans (one in particular), his fridge is probably stocked with Lone Star and Shiner Bock (or something like that)

True, BK, but I do wish you would swim a little closer to the top!

Awesome Blossom are another poor yankee excuse for imitating Aussie food.

Loboy called himself a dork.....lol....you're not a dork LoBoy. Your name "lost boy" is my favorite band. Unfortunately they were bread in Texas.


I cannot keep up with these posts....lol....

And no, this is not necessarily going to be just a fun thread. I have way too many issues to ignore. Windstopped, you don't need to comment on that....lol....

I think we have to give Mrs. W. a break BK. She was "in the fog" having a "fogfest" when she married that yankee. Hate the sin. Not the sinner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ROTFLMAO

How exactly do you expertly pour a Guiness?

Iron butterfly hunh? I bet I'd feel like a butterfly after one of those and my head would feel like it wuz full of iron in the morning! Sounds good tho.

I've actually made my own beer for 16 years....

Well, you certainly attracted all the goofballs here, mopey, so wadja expect? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

oh great! So he's an Aussie and a dork!

LMAO....I don't think I could ask a server for a "duck fart"! Are ya kiddin me?

Hey honey....would you order a "duck fart" for me at a restaurant if I wanted one?....lol.....

Well it's up there with a "Screaming Orgasm" and "Sex on the beach"

OMG....ROTFLMAO!

Sorry BK. You left a big fat one over the plate and I had to hit it out of the park!

Next time you go to a bar, ask for a Guinnes on tap and watch the bartender pour it. There's a whole ritual to it. I believe they even have a school to teach them the finer art of pouring Guinness. One of the barmaids I know used to draw a shamrock on top while pouring.

I can't breathe!!!! LMAO!!!!

The best part is, not many bartenders know how to make a Duck Fart. So you sidle up to the bar, and order a Duck Fart.

When the bartender says....


"How do you make a Duck Fart"



You casually say....


"Uh...You step on his tail"

I guarantee asking for a "Screaming Orgasm" would be funnier....

OMG...OMG...LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hands down, you got me there... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O.k., I feel better now. All it took wuz a few drinks and I am no longer confoosed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Windstopped says he felt bad.

Tommorow we can discuss "just compensation".

Oh wait.....I forgot about the enmeshment.

Dang...can't find it in Websters. I don't think I spelt it right....I'm still looking.

Aww, come on! Let's give him a good floggin tonight! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

About Interpersonal Enmeshment

In human relationships, this term means two or more people who don't have clear identities and boundaries (limits) that separate one person from the other. Thus an enmeshed person can't distinguish the difference between my needs, feelings, opinions, and priorities and yours. This condition suggests both people survived a low-nurturance childhood and have significant false-self wounds.

Enmeshment ranges from mild to extreme. It is the polar opposite of two people being independent - meaning neither has a strong bond with (emotional attachment to) the other. A middle option is an interdependent relationship, where each person has a clear, stable identity and personal boundaries, and a healthy bond with the other. These promote relating together as co-equal partners out of conscious choice, vs. unconscious compulsion ("I can't live without you!")

Two adults ("Nina and Jose are joined at the hip") , a parent and a minor or grown child ("Mel's a Momma's Boy"), two children ("The twins are inseparable") or whole families may be enmeshed. Some people feel enmeshment is the same as the relationship addiction called codepen- dence. Personal identities and boundaries can be intentionally clarified and strengthened by self-motivated "parts work," which is half of co-parent Project 1 in this nonprofit, wound-prevention Web site.

OMG...it's the computer geek at his best, ya'll <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You better watch it. You could still end up under the shed with the ground hogs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

U R BAD LaLa.....lol......

W2S......that is sooo funny. I found the exact same article just now! I wuz gettin ready to cut and paste it here.

So now I need to mull it over a bit.

One thing I already do know is that I do have my own personal identity. Heck, Windstopped and I weren't even a couple really until the last year. He did his own thing and I did mine. So I know that's out.

I'll be back.

Yeah LaLa, he's quick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just call him flash.

Clear identity. Let me think about that first. I'll get to boundaries in another post.

I think I know who I am. I do not, or ever thought I have, lived my life through my husband. But he does affect me.

As I was mentioning earlier, I honestly pretty much lived a separate life from my H all of this time. Before these last few d-days, I was a wife to a stranger, a mom to 2 wonderful kids, a student who loved school (not the homework) had my own friends (mostly from school) and that was me. My identity, or parts of it.

Now I am still the same person but, I'm a wife who is finally getting to know who her husband is, freaked out about some of that, a mom to two wonderful kids who are hurting and confused too, a student who is struggling in school (I believe I may be clinically depressed and I made my first c last semester <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) and I pretty much don't see all the friends I had in school because I graduated and entered a new university right when all of this happened. I have met some great people in school but I've been on such a roller coaster that I haven't wanted to let anyone new in right now. I don't think I can be a good friend to anyone right now.

That is part of my identity. I have many other layers but I don't see how they are entwined or enmeshed with my husband's identity.

If I am missing the picture here, anyone, please point it out to me.

would love to stick around for a drink... but it's late over here on the east coast and i have to get up early to take kids to school and go to work. ick!

i used to bartend... besides sex on the beach, we had sex on the pool table...YUM!!!

SS....how ya doing!

Don't you hate it when those responsibilities get in the way!



Are you saying you DID this or are these drinks!....lol.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JK....I know that sex on the beach is a drink but never heard of sex on the pool table. Is that what yall did after you had the sex on the beaches? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Oh and Loboy....I'll re-read what you and Windstopped said about me and I'll see if it is truiz. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I think I might be turning in for the night soon myself. That wine is making me sleepy cuz Loboy had to go and make me think! JK Loboy....tis is the reason I started this thread, finally.......

I don't think from what I know that you are enmeshed. I just think you guys have to figure out how to communicate better, that's all. You said you have a new counselor who is really good, and if you both really open your hearts to each other and embrace the M, you will be able to move forward.

Maybe they could start with a couple of duck farts, move on to sex on the pool table (no pool table... no problem throw a green blanket on the kitchen table), then finish off with sex on the beach. Might not help comunication, but they'll have a good buzz going.

Sorry, just got back...was on the phone for a while.

Wasn't trying to make you think too much...it's just when I see some similarities with some of the things that happened with HHW and me then I jump in. And one of the things that always bothered me about the mother's day fiasco, was that I think the whole thing would have been averted had HHW actually ASKED me what was going through my mind in the car on mother's day instead of assuming/perceiving that I was angry....crisis averted!

When you posted that you were withdrawing cause YOU didn't THINK he felt enough remorse, my twisted mind thought that it seemed similar to my old situation. Yes, actions speak louder than words, but sometimes people freeze like a deer in the headlights when confronted with a painful or potentially 'dangerous' situation...like WindStopped knows he was the source of your pain...he might feel tremendous remorse, sorrow, and guilt, but just freeze bc he's the source of the pain. Maybe you should re-read Al Turtle's article on the Lizard Brain.

I think this is the article: Al Turtle - The Lizard Brain

Hope this helps! Now back to your wine...LOL

LoBoy

I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes to put up the white flag. I felt bad for hurting him while I was in withdrawal.

I told him I felt bad and I didn't want to hurt him like that.

He had a MC appt today, alone, with the new counselor. He told me a little bit about it but I don't feel I can share it here unless he wants to. It's kinda IC/MC. She's working with us both separately and I think we're suppose to get together for MC with her after she individually exercises both of our demons......lol....

Anywayz....I will be discussing my stuff here. Cuz yall are free. Just kidding. You guys are great.

LaLa....I think we are both trying really hard to open our hearts. Problem is, like you said I think, is that our communication sucks. And a host of a bunch of other problems as well. I'll try to stick to one at a time here though as not to get ahead of myself. I feel really screwed up and need to sort it out. Ya feel me?

Lol.....who'd need communication with all that going on? Certaintly not me! I could feel it in his touch. Woot!

No doubt...and I feel ya sista! You'll be OK. We just need to keep you out of your protective shell, ya know? You are too awesome to be in there by yourself!!!!!!!!

Although I can understand...whew!

Yes Loboy. I know I cannot know what he is thinking. To do so would be a DJ, and yes, I have been guilty of that. And why? Mainly because he leaves me guessing even after I ask. Sometimes I'll get a "I don't know", or "I'm at a loss for words".

And even worse, in the past he would appease me. He has admitted to that. And because he has lied to me about so much, I don't even know if he would tell me the truth about his true feelings. How do I handle that? I look for actions.

I'm still thinking. Switched to diet soda. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The protective shell is a defense mechanism. I plan to talk to my shrink (easier to spell than counselor) about it. I have gotten to where I cannot wait to see her!

Thanks LaLa, you and the rest of the dorks, aussies, and 1/2 yankees helped to pull me out of my shell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And we shall KEEP you out, dangit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Going to bed, talk atcha later!

This makes me laugh and cry at the same time!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Sorry Mrs. W. We know you have probably repented and you have been forgiven. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

O.k., I don't want this to turn into some kinda whiney thread for me but today, I just feel like crapola.

I think my pain and fears and withdrawal and the whole mess is taking it's toll on me. I feel physically ill with pain everywhere. Please just shoot me now.....

Whining over.

Hey guys, thanks for dropping over last night. The laughs really helped.

Coming back in a few to dicuss what Loboy said.

OK, and I'm going to bump up and post to my thread. As I told 14, I am pretty depressed today for several reasons...sounds like something out of a book or movie...

"We laughed, we cried..."

I just wanted to bring this up again. I think this is one part of the communication puzzle that we have problems with. I know it would be damaging to guess what he is thinking. So I have to rely on him to share it with me. I will try the "how do you feel about that" and see if it helps. But it also hurts me that he won't just openly share whatever it is he is feeling. I have always had to drag and pull stuff out of him. Or, I am left in the dark.

I also realize that I have an underlying fear that I will not get the truth. He has appeased me in the past, he admits this. He said he would say anything to not have to discuss topics further. He basically shuts me down with this.


Windstopped tells me often that even he doesn't know what he is feeling, so there is nothing there for me to go on. This shuts me down as well. And he doesn't think about it and then come back to me. It is just forgotten usually, unless I bring it up again. That feel like nagging to me and prying and I hate it.


He has lied to me constantly for years and I don't know what all he will lie to me about. I have often FELT like he has lied to me about his feelings, as much as past behaviors.

It is extremely frustrating to find out how someone feels if they won't talk about it because they say they don't know themselves.

I am always left guessing, or not trusting and this is not good.

We found ourselves still on the rollercoaster when we got up......

Headed to your thread.

Mopey - do you KNOW that windstopped has been completely honest with you?

No. No I don't.

As far as the 3 main questions on the polygraph he failed one of them. He failed the question of "did you have any more internet affairs other than the two with Ho #1 and Ho #2". The person who did the polygraph thinks his mind MAY have been searching for the answer. His response on that question was close to one of the control questions and so it was inclusive.

He was caught in two lies after the polygraph.

I do not know how much he is honest with feelings or anything other than the two questions he passed on the polygraph test.

You guys can break out the 2x4's because I just cannot do this anymore. I don't know if it's me or it's him, or both but I am miserable.

I asked him to move out again. I've been thinking about it all week, including last night.

I don't think I am recoverable, in the marriage that is.

I did not ask for a divorce and even told him I am not ready for that step.

I cannot help it. I cannot go through the pain of recovering with him when I feel like he is making little effort to help me with the things I need the most right now.

Maybe a true separation for a few months will help me to see where I am at fault better.

All I know is that this will also create more fears for me.

Mopey - don't take this the wrong way, but Windstopped's posts yesterday were eerily reminicent of RLT's WH right before under threat of a polygraph all sorts of stuff flowed out.

I think the rabbit hole is deeper than he has admitted and that this is why your recovery is stalled and you don't feel as if he is "putting in"

Maybe a separation will help him clear his mind.

I have often wondered if he is still hiding things but, I just cannot imagine that he could tell me all that he has and not tell me the rest.

I didn't take it the wrong way BK. And what I need the most right now is complete and total honesty. I need you guys to tell me like you see it.

Honestly BK, It feels to me that he has decided that there are certain things he feels is necessary for recovery and it stops there. If I need anything more, I feel he perceives it as a demand.

I see him dribbling out information on a "need to know" basis.

I see lack of intimacy in your marriage as a result of dishonesty about feelings as well as history.

Has he read any Harley books? Has he seen a counsellor about or been diagnosed with a sexual addiction?

Can you counsel with Steve Harley?

Most definitely! I do not talk about affair details hardly ever anymore mostly because I didn't feel I would get an honest answer anyway. And he NEVER shared more than what was asked by me.

Even on stuff that doesn't involve the affair details. I have to pull info out of him to find out what he is thinking. And I always feel like he only tell me "what I need to know".



And I feel the lack of intimacy. He did fill out the personal history questionnaire and was amazed at the number of women that was on there and those were only ones that he had some kind of relationship with. If I'm not mistaken, he slept with about 40+? (I have to look again) women from high school unil he met me when he was 25.



He has read HNHN, Lovebusters, and a slew of other books.



Talked to a counselor about it and he said he didn't think he had a sexual addiction. But I do not think that counselor was qualified to diagnose it. He has been on the RecoveryNation website and I think the guy who put that site together thinks he should be there.

He just started seeing a different counselor last week. Who knows what she will say.



We had a few counseling sessions with Jennifer some time ago, but we stopped. I would like to continue with the new counselor that we're seeing for the time being.

That would be a deal breaker for me. THAT is NOT honesty.

I sadly agree with BK's assessment and shuddered last night when WindStopped posted...I got the EXACT same feeling that I did on RLT's thread when her husband posted...

What I would like to see happen is for WindStopped to come here, start his own thread and let us run him through the bullchit sniff test...

And I REALLY, REALLY hate saying all this Mopey...I pray that we are wrong in our assessments...

Mrs. W

Mopey - the thing is I believe his posts on this thread were for SHOW.

He is making the bare minimum effort - the minimum you require to stay married to you. It's time to raise that bar.

I agree with Mrs W. Applying the blowtorch to him will be difficult in the current MB environment however.

Mopey...

Take a look at the similarities between the post from Windstopped last night and the post of FWHofRLT right before she found out all the stuff that she did...



Reading the two of those give me chills...
(((((Mopey)))))

Mrs. W

TOTALLY MrsW!!

This is why I need to post.

I don't think he's told me everything. The lie I caught him in a few months ago after the polygraph was "have you ever thought about your ex gf after the ONS before we married"? (I was looking to see if he was pining for her after that night) The answer was a definite "no". I got specific and asked if he ever thought about her at all. Definite "no". Well, that didn't sound right cuz I figured if I had a ONS with an ex right before I was married, I'm thinking I would have thought about that night a few times. And we all know how much he enjoyed his sexual fantasies in the past.....

So, I asked him, "Did you ever see her again after that night?". Well, turns out, yes he had. He had seen her at least 6 times at a restaurant that is not 5 miles from our house which we had been frequenting! Supposedly ex gf didn't work there when we were having dinner there. But the point is, that is how all of our conversations went. It was like pulling teeth. AND that information was extremely hurtful to keep from me! He had already been reading here on MB in these forums for over a year and he was still abusing me like that. This incident was probably about 3 months ago.

A huge part of me not being able to "look towards the future" with him is because I DO NOT FEEL SAFE.

I have not had any more "affair detail" sessions with him like that because of the way he answers and lied. And you can't ask 50 questions on a polygraph!

Talking about my triggers is a whole nutther story..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I hear ya. The feeling I got was that it was "poor him" again. Anyone else get that vibe?



That would extremely beneficial for our recovery in my opinion, but I doubt he will do it. I've already asked him to. It was on my list of things that could help me recover from his infidelities.

It's one of the reasons I feel like his recovery efforts are lacking......I asked Jennifer Harley about this. She thought it was a great idea and to incorporate it into "my needs". HE doesn't think it's necessary for our recovery and because he doesn't want to do it, then he shouldn't have to. If it makes me feel bad, well then, I am being a demanding bia. I honestly feel like it would help us tremenously to work through this chit but it is falling on deaf ears. Makes me feel low in the self-esteem dept. Not the way I see myself personally, but it makes me feel "worth less" when I put him into the equation.

I lovingly asked him many times to at least talk or respond to me somehow about my posts when I make them. No go there either.



Ya know Mrs. W., I don't think anything could shock me at this point. But I know it would hurt.

Thanks for looking out for me.

Sorry BK. Missed this. So, you felt it too. I can spot them a mile away I think.



I would say the bare minimum always involves openess and honesty and emotional support. He seems to be wonderful in all other areas. Mostly.



And this has been where my biggest conflict has come in. I honestly think he'd rather divorce me than listening and acting on those two needs above.

He'd rather run an errand or do the dishes for me than to work this stuff out with me.

Yeah BK. I can see the kid gloves coming out now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You know what Mopey? I DARE him to post!!! Print this out and show it to him if you want to...In fact, I QUADRUPLE DAWG DARE him to...It really sticks in my craw that he won't do something as simple as posting here for you...It screams INSINCERE to me, AND I think one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, that he won't post is because he KNOWS that his bullcrap won't fly here...That we will read right through him...I need to go back and read the posts that he has made here...Right now I think he needs a wake up call...

What was his reaction to your asking him to move out?

Mrs. W

Gave me the chills Mrs. W. They both reek of fakeness.

My H has always lived with a facade. It's one of the reasons he is in counseling.

Thanks for the hugs.

Lol Mrs. W! He probably wouldn't consider it a challenge, more like a threat or something that will make ME mentally challenged somehow.



Yeah, mine too. OH, but he claims that he values me more than anyone on the planet. To do something he doesn't feel comfortable with would be "asking him to cross a boundary of his". And if I were to feel hurt by it, I'M ENMENSED IN HIM.



He is a HUGE conflict avoider, passive-agressive and an expert in gaslighting. Good luck guys. You've got your work cut out for ya.

All bullchit detectors....Please sign up.



Let's see....I was sitting here numb and crying and quiet.....


I am a bia.

He bets my "MB cheerleading squad will want me to divorce him".

Said I was a freeloader and not a buyer. Oh, but HE is now, and has been for the past 6 months....lol....geez, now that I read that, that's funny! I don't care who you are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This would be our final separation and that I'd better start looking into attorneys and such.

He'd rather stay in a hotel than stay in a free room at anyone in my family's house. I'm pretty sure we couldn't afford counseling if we did that. Unless we used our savings.

Something about me sleeping in the house that he is paying for.

*I* am sabotaging the marriage and afraid of change.

I should look for cheaper housing.

I am a controlling person and weak (in so many words) and I am not handling the pain well.

*I* am trying to "keep him under my thumb by refusing to move forward" and always bringing up the past.

Taunted me for making these notes.....lol....but it hurt.

He said if I cannot win in a conversation (not trying to win) that I will ridicule him instead.

And my favorite....I use MB for escaping.

And all of that is about half of what he said.

Get the picture?

That is why I took notes this time. This is how our so called healing conversations always turn out.

OMG. He is so full of chit. He has serious issues and he is hiding a bunch.

That is very wayward.

GROW UP WINDSTOPPED

That was my gut feeling too BK.

What I have been living with is bonafide crazymaking.

I cannot even trust my own instincts. That is the worst part.

Well he's gaslighting you. Big surprise you don't trust yourself

OK, so I just got caught up on this. Sorry I was gone all evening!

Mopey, these are the exact same things I was saying to DH a few weeks ago. Until the true realization of the pain that he has cause happens, you are spinning your wheels--PERIOD! Tell him at least TWO members of your freakin cheerleading squad has spouted the same crap-fountain and we know the difference. Tell him they're women, so what's it say that a MAN can't handle it (OK, maybe that's a LB). Sorry. It just makes me mad to hear this stuff. Especially your list from above. That really got me worked up b/c I know that language, hon, and it ain't the language of RECOVERY. He probably thinks he was a hero for coming on here ther other night and saying that stuff.

Do NOT doubt your gut feelings on this...you don't deserve that, because it makes you question your sanity in a way, ya know. You will know when it FELLS REAL, just like W2S did. And he refused to settle for less. He told me that he would not fake this M. That he wanted true, passionate love and that co-existing in semi-peace was NOT gonna cut it.

I am so sorry you are in this place. As if the pain of mutiple A's is not enough to deal with and try to forgive. To then deal with insincerity is too much to ask.

Yes, and that's the scary part to me. Not to mention it was the bare minimum. He acted like he wanted to break through to me and then when I was starting to, WHAM, see ya!

When I asked him why he didn't stick around on the thread, he said it was because he was emotionally drained from his counseling appt and that it was just a fun thread anyway. He played his computer game instead. "It helps him escape like me being on MB".



And THIS is the bottom line for me.

Thanks so much for checking in here even while you're so upset. That was very compassionate of you. Thank you.

And I SINCERILY appreciate you guys helping me to learn to trust myself again. I hope that you will call me out if I step out of line as well. That will help me too.

I honestly think my husband wants this marriage, but on his terms.

And just so you know, Windstopped definitely knew I was posting away and stayed far, far, far away from the computer.

I didn't ask him to get on here. I know he will read it very soon. I am almost positive he would not have posted if I would have asked.

He was busy washing his clothes for his departure tommorow I presume.

I feel so, so sad right now. This is where I get conflicted so bad every time.

He can be so wonderful, patient and kind in other areas.

He keeps telling me he is working with the counselors so he can be there for me emotionally.

But is it that he can't or he won't!

It is tearing me up inside.

He's almost perfect in other ways!

Just shoot me now.

I know I'm coming in LATE and IGNORANT..but how long has your RECOVERY been...

You have ONE thing POSITIVE going on at least...

MY H WOULD ABSOLUTELY NEVER, EVER POST ON THIS FORUM..

and we are HAPPILY RECOVERED...

I know I may be way off base..but I thought I'd throw that out..

and especially EARLY in RECOVERY..

he was IN WITHDRAWAL for 6 months..still foggy after a year..

Hi MiMi.....

I suppose if I felt supported emotionally in other ways I wouldn't need him to post here. I think the reason it became important to me was because our conversations, all of them never turn out well. I felt like maybe he could share his stuff on here and then maybe I could get inside of his head some. And also because certain things don't feel right to me but he doesn't listen to me. Maybe he would listen to you guys. And also if he had a beef, which he does, he could work it out here and I might learn a thing or two.

I guess I am just starving for any kind of emotional support when it comes to dealing with my husband who has been cheating on me since before we were married. It's kinda screwed me up, ya know?

There should be NO RELATIONSHIP talk during early recovery. That's why I was wondering how long it has been.

Maybe your situation is different than ours.

We had to just learn to be together...

15 Hours of Recreation according to the HARLEYS...

Sounds like you are wanting TURBO RECOVERY...

Sorry MiMi, forgot the other question.

My first big d-day was 9/06. He lied to me about several more affairs until 8/07. The last lies regarding the affairs, that I know of, were about 3 months ago. When do you feel like we started recovery? Or have we?

(((((mopey)))))

There is good in just about everyone. Just because he is a good husband/father in many ways, isn't really the point. I was, too. I was pretty good at even being a mom when I was a wayward B! But, when you get down to it...that's not enough. It is still appeasement as opposed to remorse. Do not sell yourself short on what you deserve. I know you are scared, but he has to do the work, mopers. There is no other way except to settle for what he offers. And from what you are saying here, settling is not an option.

Here is what concerns me, though. When he has (if he has) made the effort to open up to you, are you keeping still and then thanking him for sharing? Or are you LB-ing? I am not criticizing you, please understand, I just want to be sure he feels safe enough to share. If he worries about you getting angry, you have to put yourself out there and convince him that you won't...and then stick to it every time. That is really the only way to get the truth and re-build. Once he reaches the point I am at, you will get everything you need from him to recover. You guys are just stuck in a really awful place.

And on and on with the roller-coaster....

Hang in there!!

MiMI.....

Are you saying that 16 months into recovery is me wanting a turbo recovery?

And it's kinda hard just learning to be together when you know you are being lied to constantly.

I have bitten my tongue and pushed back my feelings to spend time with him A LOT.

I'm just wanting the recovery to actually start. It feels like it starts over with every lie.

My husband is already impatient with me to "get over it" and it has only been 5 months since he told me of several more affairs.

Am I doing something wrong here?

I told you I was IGNORANT about your history...

Forget everything I said....

I WAS WRONG...

Talk to you tomorrow..

That's what it feels like LaLa. I can't help that that is the way it feels.

And yes LaLa. I have LB'd many times. It's because I always had to pull teeth and I knew I was being lied to. I didn't feel safe either. It doesn't make it right but we'll be going in circles here. I cannot be "still" when I know I am being lied to to my face. I also cannot be still when I have to beg him to open up. I am literally starving emotionally from him. My fault? I think that's why maybe I need to separate? To see if it's really me?

I have thanked him for opening up to me even when I had to pull teeth. Our conversations were never healing. They always turned out like tonight or when I started this whole withdrawal of mine.

You are NOT doing anything wrong!! You are just trying to get the TRUTH that you DESERVE!

Please don't second guess your feelings. Multiple A's are a BIG thing to handle, especially when you are being spoon fed info at his discretion. He probably thinks he is sparing your feelings by doing this. Have you explained to him why you need all of the truth? That you don't need mutiple D-days on top of everything else?

Thanks for stopping in MiMi. It means a lot to me.

Now just so you guys know, I do have anger issues of my own. And I don't know what God was thinking when he put me with my anger with a serial adulterer! You think he's popping popcorn right now?

Til I was blue in the face. Joseph's letter, analogies, the whole nine yds.

Hahahaha...you are so funny! LOL!

I'm going to hang with the hubby for a while and then off to bed. I will catch you again in the morning!

((((mopey))))

Try to get some sleep, sweetie!!

And LaLa....yes I did LB big time right after d-day. Each one. The LBs got worse though, because of the teeth pulling and lies. Had he been honest up front, I'm still sure I would have been po'd and gave him a piece of mind for a few weeks or months. But I know if he had been telling me the truth the whole time, I would have gone through all the grieving stages just like everyone else and would be way past the anger.

Thank you so much for being here for me LaLa. I feel kinda bad because you have so much going on yourself.

I'll be going to bed after I do my 2 hours of homework. I've been unable to concentrate on it so far. Have to turn it in tommorow. /sigh.

Peace out.

I can't believe I didn't thank BK and Mrs. W too!

Thanks you guys.

So.....I'm second guessing myself about him moving out. I am wondering if I should hang tight and give counseling a try while still living in the same house.

I cannot keep going back and forth. It is not fair to him.

I have an appt with our counselor tommorow. I'll discuss this with her.

Yeah, back and forth is bad. I've been thinking on this...

The purpose of the MB program seems to center on the bettering of your own self while waiting for the A to end. Since his As have ended (hopefully), you are questioning if you are truly in recovery...or what the heck is going on!! I told you last night you are spinning your wheels as his mindset is still foggy and wayward and you are (and have been) at the end of the patience rope! With this in mind, it seems you have been stuck in a mindset of wanting him to do something to make you feel happy/safe/secure in the M. We all know that a wayward is incapable of doing this, and that is why you are so frustrated.

I would like to suggest that you put him and his actions/words aside for a moment. Figure out what it is going to take for you to make YOURSELF happy. You said that for years, you pretty much led your own lives, did your own things, etc. That does need to change down the line when you are in recovery, in accordance with the 15 hrs a week and POJA, etc. For now, though, you must start to recover for yourself. Until he (on his own-you KNOW you cannot educate him) decides that he is really going to make the effort to change his mindset, you must accept this if you are going to live together, and dig within yourself to find happiness and peace. You have a lot of things going for you: you are smart and funny, you have your school to concentrate on...what else can you tell me about yourself that your are proud of and that make you feel good?

The point here is that he is not going to change until you do. The change in my mindset was when DH said he was DONE, wanted a D and he MEANT it. He had NOT threatened it over and over, so I was not foolish enough to believe he was bluffing. It scared me to the core and I immediately came here to figure out what needed to happen for ME to put an end to all the madness. You have read here over and over, I'm sure, that a wayward cannot be educated by the BS. That any R and A talks will be met with anger and frustration and in the wayward's mind, they are not doing things just to appease you (even though they are!)...THEY think (just as I did) that they ARE doing everything they can to help the BS recover. And so, the vicious cycle goes on and on.

I am asking you to take a step back, control what you can control...and that is YOU and YOUR HAPPINESS. Windstoped cannot control that for you, although he can be a great source of joy when he reaches the conclusion (on his own) that he has NOT done all he can. At that point, happiness can be shared both of you and real recovery and healing can begin. That is the time and place where your needs will be met and you can rely on him more as a source of companionship, support, and happiness.

Your other option is Plan B. If you have truly begun to question your love for Windstopped (which from your posts seems to not be true if you are really honest with yourself), then you must GO to Plan B and stay there until he agrees to do the things required by you to move back in together. IMHO, I do not think this is what must happen. Separation for you guys would be bad right now---IF you want to recover the M. And noone is going to judge you either way. But you must be sure. You should decide if this M is what you want, and then proceed according to your decision.

Ask yourself...can I have true, romantic love with someone who has been unfaithful/dishonest to me numerous times? Can we be a happily M couple and live as a true PARTNERSHIP? Can we adopt the policy of POJA lovingly and willing after so many years of "doing our own thing?" What are the things that I love about Windstopped that make him the person I want to spend the rest of my life with? (that last one is the most important)

Once you figure out what the reasons are that make you want to be with him and recover your M, it will give you focus to work your plan. At that point, it will be your goal to make him feel that you CAN get over this, and that he CAN be completely honest with you in order to get to the whole truth. Until he believes this, he has no motivation to change, because he is scared that even if he does do the work (which he feels he is doing already!) you will leave him anyways.

Does this make sense?

LaLa....I have been churning all of these same thoughts over and over in my head for the past 5 months. Thought I was going to be good and then bam, more lies.

What I do know is that I don't think that I can convince even myself that I can get over this if I don't know the whole truth. It wasn't right of him to withhold the truth because he didn't think I could or couldn't get over it. That is manipulation and abuse. Once I am sure I know everything, which I believe the burden for that is on him at this point, then I will be able to go where you are suggesting. If it seems that I can't get over it it's because I don't know if the other shoe is going to drop soon. So, maybe 12 weeks is long enough to consider him trustworthy? Maybe?

I have 12 weeks of no lies, so far, to go on.

And I do not care what his reasons are for not being honest. He CAN be honest. Just because I don't like what he is telling me doesn't give him the right to hold back.


And like I said earlier, if I had known the whole truth from the start, I would be going through all the grieving stages just like everyone else and be way past the anger.

I am a bit gun shy at this point.

If he'd been honest and I felt like I could trust him right now, and I felt SAFE WITH HIM, I wouldn't have to convince him of anything. He could see that I was happy. He knows I want this marriage. Just not the way it is now.

His recovery efforts and his lies are why I am stuck. I will have to make a decision of a plan B I guess if the counseling doesn't help. *I* may be able to recover but I may not be able to recover this marriage. As much as I'd like to.

I've been to the place of seeing a future with him. Spending 15 hrs a week with him. Only to have those dreams killed too by the betrayals of lies. It's hard to recover from this chit.

I really appreciate your repsonse. You gave me a lot to think about. I want to answer more but will have to do it in a little while.

OK...and just so you know, I cannot imagine how hard it has been with every one of those D-days...

I guess it would be somewhat different, maybe a little more "understandable" in a case where there was ONE A and even after D-day, more info came out. As time goes on, the BS gets through the fog here and there as to why it is important to have the WHOLE truth and ALL the details (because the BS may not have been able to express that need in the beginning and b/c the WS believes they are sparing the BS's feeling, etc). But to have mutiple As over a long period of time and then leak out the truth on a "need to know basis" just may be a deal breaker for a lot of people. It is, as you said, "manipulation and abuse."

My concern is for YOU. As you become stronger in your resolve one way or the other, it will help YOU to be OK.

That's what I care about...YOU being OK.

I will be creating a post on the recovery forum in response to several posts in this thread.

Mopey,

Catching up a little here, I had forgotten just how much our stories parallel.

I understand how you feel about just getting the truth in little dribbles, and at his discretion. And I am about 12 weeks out, also, on just getting the whole truth (I think).

I'm gun shy too. And waiting for the other shoe. And all of the other analogies you can come up with.

God, how did I ever get here???
How did life get so F--D up??

Dang yall! Windstopped is writing a book! I'm sceered....lol..... W2S would be proud...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Poor guy. He's got a lot on his mind. I am sooo glad you double dawged dared him Mrs. W!......lol....

He said he was up to the challenge of a bullchit test....lol....Yay! Now maybe yall can kick both of our arses into shape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah.....I took a nice long bath, ate dinner and also watched a 30 minute show with my son and he was typing away the whole time. Hmmmmmm..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Yeah....I'm in trouble now, unh hunh, big trouble.

Well Im glad you decided to come out of hiding there too Missy RLT. Aint it cool to sit back and read someone else's thread that sounds just like your own? I do. Cuz I'm lazy and this chit is draining!

Please feel free to pipe up anytime youiz wantin to, K?

After seeing that book that Windstopped is writing I might need another "MB cheerleader" if ya know what I mean? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Cuz you've been there and are doing that.

Boy, after today I think I should check myself into the GODDESS thread. I'll need the therapy. Hope they take checks.

I'm still thinking about your post LaLa.....

I'm warming up my bullchit detertor even as we speak....

Makes my head spin girlfriend.

RLT....by the time we're done with this chit we could probably walk into a physchology exam and pass a final.

I didn't say that.

I said I'll post to give the BS detectors a chance to grill me.

Lol!......

Ooooops.....my bad already! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

It's in the "Recovery" forum. Titled "Windstopped's puff".

Mopey,

Your DJs are kicking your own marriage in the gut, IMO. I believe they are giving you feelings of depression, anger, frustration, and great fear. And that's you doing it to you.

I've read you for a long time...saw a lot of similarities in my marriage through yours...from both sides. I'm not saying my opinion to harm or judge you.

Going back to your first post on this thread...did you own your trigger as you, triggering? You had an expectation of what WS's reaction to your trigger SHOULD be...your trigger and your expectation.

You've expected him to stop lying by commission or omission. Your expectation.

Your half is your choice to stop believing WS. You know he lies, withholds, misrepresents...all the levels of self-deception...and yet you continue to expect honesty.

You can choose to not believe temporarily...and you can help your relationship by doing so. If you want to...

All those things you listed that WS thinks/believes...his concerns...which ones have you found really in yourself?

I'm like LoBoy...I don't want to enable you...and I do want you to feel better...feel in love with your H...in Intimacy...and I respect you greatly, know you can take what you asked for...honesty.

I don't believe you want to do harm to your partner...and you are doing harm to him, your marriage and yourself. In your control, even though he is not.

W2S about enmeshment...you expected his feelings to be in response to your feelings...you chose to not see valid remorse...you were looking at him, his reactions, not your own trigger, where it came from, owning it as your own, sharing you were having it...you were looking at WS to fix it.

He can't. He can stay present, hear your trigger, see you understand it thoroughly, and know his part...not the whole...because that IS a remorseful action. Not discounting your feelings, not DJing you shouldn't feel that trigger.

My intent is to be a friend of your marriage,

LA

Hey Mopey! I wanted to touch base with you b4 I go watch some TV. I've been on here a lot and my brain hurts!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I read all through Windstopped's post(s) and responses. I didn't have a lot to add yet b/c I am still thinking about it all. I don't want to jump into posting b4 I have a chance to mull it over.

One thing does concern me...and BK touched on it. You need to stop reading each other's posts for now and posting on each other's threads. It is upsetting for both of you. Not good! I am concerned that the anger level and AOs have reached a point where you may need some time apart until you can both come back to the table with your anger under control. Maybe it would help...you just HAVE to stop hurting each other. I am not saying that you don't have a right to be hurt....but the way it is being dealt with will not get you any closer as a couple. It will only continue to drive you apart.

I know you are upset by his post, but I just cannot figure out why...I read it through a couple of times, and I hear a lot about his personal issues and his past. He is owning a lot of his mistakes, he is reading here and M books, he is (or says he is) being open with you about phone/email/etc, he has taken a lie detector test...I think he is really trying to get it. I am concerned about him getting too mixed up in the past, when he should be focusing on the HERE and NOW. But sometimes reflection of the past is necessary to correct old habits...What I don't see is a lot of "whiney wayward" justifications, etc. Actually there was not a lot about his As at all. Is that what upset you? Just trying to figure some of it out is all...

My point is...with the way things were presented to you- like a leaky faucet- it has made you completely mistrust everything about him. Everything he says, does, feels, etc. That is why I suggested you spend some time apart and work through some of the anger b4 it is too late. I want the best for you guys and the road to recovery is not covered in AOs, DJs and LBs, ya know. That's where you (both) are...

I hope we can help you figure this out, hon...you deserve the very best!!!


((((((MOPEY))))))

Wow LaLa that was a GREAT post...I agree 100%!

Mrs. W

So do I!!

I pretty much agree with you guys too.

I have too much to say and my head hurts. But briefly where I'm at now....

I am convinced more than ever that I need to try to heal on my own now.

I do have too much anger towards him. It's a secondary emotion to pain.


I never expected him to fix it or undue it, all the damage that is. I've always known that wasn't possible. I just wanted him to try to meet my needs that I've expressed to him that I thought would help get me through this recovery.

The things he listed in his post were partially incorrect, of the things I asked for, and I asked for those things quite some time ago. I asked for them because it was like pulling teeth to get anything out of him regarding the truth of our life and what's he has been up to, and I thought if he did it in writing it would be easier. Details of the affair. That stuff seems so distant to me now though. I am too scared to ask any questions.

The things I'm talking about above have been "recovery needs" of mine that I have asked for and were discussed with MB's own Jennifer Harley. In fact she suggested some of them. All doable. Windstopped let me know that it was an irritant to him and gave me little pieces if I was starving. He chooses to not meet my needs for openeness and honesty, empathy and compassion as well. And those are at the top of my list. And the lying and blaming me for him not feeling safe compounds my hurt. It increases my desire to make it stop.

That's where the pain comes in and causes anger in me. That and a lot of other behaviors that are hurtful to me.

I have felt more manipulated than cherished.

As far as the hitting goes BK, I slapped him in the face once a looooong time ago, probably in the first year or two of our marriage, for saying something to me that cut me like a knife. He turned around and knocked the chit of my face. Like a guy would hit a guy.

I have caught myself wanting to hurt him after a d-day or a lie. But I held back.

After the 4th d-day, when he got all self righteous and defensive, I wanted to hurt him as bad as he and his ****** hurt me. I wanted to beat the crap out of him, and I was, but I stopped when I looked at his face. It still haunts me to this day. *edited to add* At one point my son came out and pinned me to the ground. It was bad all around. I talked about that on LaLa's thread.

I have many times released my pain by yelling at him. I was frustrated because I felt he doesn't hear me. It does have to stop but I don't think I can while he is still hurting me. I know I have work to do on myself. We're hurting each other, agreed.

I respect all of your opinions and I thank you for them and your honesty.

Please keep it coming. LaLa, it's hard on this side too.

I will try to articulate why his post upset me, if it still does tommorow, and then I'll respond some more. I'm pretty wiped out emotionally.

Thanks again.

*Edited

(((((mopey)))))

We're here for you, hon. Whenever you are ready!

Hi LaLa. Thanks for thinking about me.

I just got back from my counseling appt. She agrees that we need to separate. Winstopped and I cannot heal while we're both abusing each other. He feels I abuse him in certain ways and vice versa.

My counselor is working with me to get to know my parts and what to do with them. She is also encouraging me to listen to my gut which has been right all of these years. I will look to her, and you guys, and a few other people as well to make me accountable. And I'm hoing for a little compassion in there too, cuz I could sure use some.

My heart is heavy and I am tired. I feel confident that I am making the right choice. It's sad and it's killing me but I honestly feel this move is necessary.

I'm still not ready to get back yet to all of you fine folks who are helping to straighten me out, but I will be back.

Growing pains suck.

How is mopey tonight?

Stay here with us, hon...don't shut us out.. compassion we can do! We'll help you get through this, one day at a time.

What is the plan?

Hi mopey-

You've been there for me and I want to be there for you. I've gone through a lot of what you describe- our husbands are a LOT alike.

I know the other board is depressing to you (started my own thread there last month). But I really see you very reactive to your husband's behavior and I think the exercises will still help. The goal here is to detach: you can be happy no matter what he does!! Honestly. There is so much peace out there for you- I wish you could see it like I do now. You don't have to be in pain or live in fear.

Do you have any S-Anon meetings near you? If not, try Al-anon. Please...

{{{mopey}}}
~Saturn

Hi Saturn, thanks for stopping in.

I'm glad to see the "other Place" is helping you. I DO get totally depressed when I go over there. I'll take a looksy at it later.



No, I don't think so. Not and live with him too. I am too reactive because his behaviors, or lack thereof, do hurt me and I am seriously losing my feelings for him. I think I need to step back and separate what is mine and start working on it.



What's your secret? Detach? I feel dissed by him SR. I have already tried to detach and let him do his own thing while I do mine and somehow, it's just not working.

As far as the meetings goes....been there done that. I never found a place that I wanted to stay at....

Thanks for caring SR. I really do want to work through this mess and come out on the other side with him.

Hey LaLa....the plan.....where the heck do I start? Oh yeah...with me. Doh! I should write a list, hunh? That's enough to make me freeze....lol....still working on the plan. I have a lot of work to do.

Windstopped is suppose to be leaving tommorow.

Thanks for being here. Did I already say that this sucks?


Hi LA.....your posts take me about a week to digest.....lol....I think I may have enough nerve to answer some questions later tonight though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...lol.....

Thank you so much for trying to help Windstopped and I. We are a mess aren't we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep, me likey lists!!! All your best qualities and good things in your life. Refer to it often. Make a note to yourself that every week or so you will add one more thing to that list as you begin to find other things you like and that make you happy or a better person. Pretty soon you won't have time for list-making because you are too busy enjoying LIFE!

I'm glad you are on tonight. I'll be back in a bit...

Today is a bad day. A very bad day. I feel like such a failure. I know it's not all my fault, but geez, we had the tools.

Yesterday I seemed to be a little bit at peace with the decision to separate. Things were cordial around here. Windstopped gave me hug at one point out of now where. When he caught me crying he said we didn't have to separate and I said we had to do something. I went to bed last night so sad and hurt that it has come to this.

I woke up even more upset. I started getting angry that Windstopped didn't try hard enough IN MY OPINION. Yes, I know he is working on himself and that is critical! But I didn't feel like he was working on the recovery needs that I personally needed from him to get over this. I was getting angry over the fact that I was going to be feeling even more alone with him gone. But it hurt to have him here too.

Like the reactive idiot I am, I let all of that anger boil to the surface as I watched him read without conversing with me all morning. I started crying to let it out but the anger was still there. I had to get ready to go to a prior committment that I had and he was in our room shaving. His open suitcase on the bed. I grabbed my clothes and walked out and slammed the bedroom door. Angry outburst #1.

After he finished shaving he came to talk to me but I was upset and told him that I hate him and I felt it (AO #2). Then of course I felt horrible because I hurt him. I know I still care because it hurts when I hurt him.

A few more words were exchanged about my unhappiness on it getting this far (and I am quite sure there were several DJ's in there) and then I told him that I think I need no contact. I know me, and I want him to beg me to stay and do what ever it takes to get through this. I want him to break down crying and tell me how sorry his is for doing too little too late. I would have EXPECTATIONS that would hurt me if he didn't do them so I just want the pain to stop.

I know it's not good to have expectations because you'll be upset if they're not met. And I understand that in everyday life. But when it comes to infidelity and the way he treated me our whole marriage, I guess I expected my husband to meet my needs in the recovery area and I was upset. Trouble is, I don't think I can heal with him without it.

I never thought I asked for too much. I needed what I asked for. I will feel like I am settling if it doesn't happen. He has done too much to me to settle and "get over it".

So I have to do what I need to recover. I know I am hurt and I change like the wind, but I have always known that I wouldn't be able to truly recover without some things, like taking my needs into consideration.

I may have just put the nail in the coffin in my marriage.

I think I really will curl up with a bottle in front of me tonight.

Hi LaLa. After I pick myself up off the floor tommorow I will concentrate on my list. Good and bad.

I read your thread. I think it's a really good thing that you and W2S spend some quality time together this weekend. Be good to each other. I know you will.

Thanks for checking in.

I actually have ALL EVENING (aren't you LUCKY..harhar) until he gets home to spend the weekend together.

I'll tell you what...I will get myself a little somfin to drink and we will make a night of it, sista!

You are not a failure. You know that...it's just very, very scarey to be alone. You are allowed to be scared, but you are NOT allowed to feel like a failure! (don't make me get out LALA'S BOOOK OF RULES...LOL)

Seriously, here is my thing with you guys...I know you've separated before and then gotten back together, but this has not worked to help your recovery in the past. I'm sure you have heard the term "dry drunk" and know what it means...don't make this another "dry recovery." Really do things to uplift yourself and try to stop relying on him (or anyone else for that matter) to make you happy. You may not have made that list yet, but you know the things that will go on it.

It is soooo hard to pick yourself up and do anything when you are depressed. For me, it is hard to get my housework done every day or simple things that I know would make me feel better right now. Luckily, my obsession with having a clean house (OCD) keeps me plugging away, but it feels like torure sometimes 'cuz I want to just curl up in a ball and sleep for about five years!

So, I'm here with ya tongiht and we will figure this stuff out together, K!

Be back in a bit!

You know what else? I feel that some BSs may think that I am pathetic because here I am, my WS is back and working on himself and I just asked him to leave.

I guess I am one of the "unrecoverable" ones.

And just for the record, I didn't "kick" Windstopped out 3 or 4 times in the last few months like he said. I did "kick" him out that many times throughout this whole ordeal though. About one for each d-day! I also told him about 5 or more times in the past that maybe we should separate.

The last time I asked him to leave was about 3 months ago when he lied to me. I didn't let him come home for 10 days until he admitted that he lied to me.

Anyway, I know it can't be that way this time. This has to stick.

no you aren't and i know how you feel..... cause i was the same way with certain things when my WH was home "trying" to recover..... and the first night this time when my husband left was hard...... and some nights are easier than others..... i just hope in the long run things will work out for you two....i will keep you in my prayers

Oh LaLa, thanks a mill. I feel like chit!





Can we please talk about this? I do do things that bring me self esteem that lift me up. Not a ton since d-day granted, but I have. I've lost 30 lbs and look pretty good, I went to gym for awhile (going back Monday) stayed in school, etc. Those things help lift me up.

Why is it that I CANNOT rely on Windstopped in this particular area to make me happy? Why can't I rely on him to meet my needs for recovery? Why can't I rely on him for emotional support period? Doesn't Harley say to meet each other's needs? "For a successful marriage you need to do things to make your spouse happy and not do things to make your spouse unhappy."

So, should I just be o.k. with him not providing me with what I asked for? It's not like everyday things where I may expect him to help around the house, etc. The things I expect and rely on him for right now were recovery needs. I cannot fathom asking someone to forgive you for all he has done and not try to meet their recovery needs.

And the message it sends to me is that I am not worth HIS effort. I don't feel worthless myself, never have, but when I put him into the equation I do.

My rant for the friggin year.

Hi LH4E.....

Was your H still invoved with his affair though during that "recovery"? I don't think my H has been involved with anyone since d-day 9/06 but who the he!! knows for sure, right?

What were the certain things LH4E? And how do you feel about those things now?

And thanks for the encouragemnt.

No he was not and i know for a fact he wasn't... things didn't start back up again until after xmas when she made contact with him from what i have gathered from intel network. But he was only half hearted here and he admits that. he then started to pick fights with me on purpose he has now said cause he felt angry and guilty about himself.

But who knows he says he misses US and wants to come see US but right now i am doing fine without him so i don't know if i even want that right now....... i dunno

I hope things get better for ya tho i will keep watching on here

And I don't get this! My husband also agrees that he hasn't done what he could do. He even admitted on his thread that he has been "reluctant".

Now why is that? I really need to know the answer to this one. From him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So, are they putting their pain before ours? Will his selfish needs ALWAYS come before mine?

no i know what you mean...... the answer i get is that he tried for so long for me to get help and to make me happy and make the marriage work... yada yada.... and now he just doesn't have it in him.... that he has to work on himself first before he could work on us.... all the while he is now in a seven month relationship with the OW... YUCK. He spends more time with her and her son than he does with me and his daughter... sickens me

Oh LH....I'm so sorry. What do you plan to do?

Well, I'm sorry that he is working only on his selfish needs cuz he's with OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

My husband has basically said this same thing to me. He said he needs to be a better person before he can be a better husband. I agree. But, what about the marriage in the meantime?

I suppose I would need the patience of a strong person and sit back and "watch him grow"?

Not sure..... today he told me that he missed me and DD that he wants to come see the both of us...... i don't know what to believe any more.... but now he says he is too sick to come and is going back to his friends house..... who knows.... OW probaly wasn't happy he wanted to come here.... i am ok with it he said he was sorry. I said ok talk to you later and that was the conversation we had.

i am just taking it one day at a time right now.... all i can do

LH4E....do you have a plan?

Are you in plan A? If so, are you going to plan B soon?

Mopey, I've been reading your thread today and gf, I gotta tell you. I recognize myself in you when FWH and I were in the first couple of years of recovery. It wasn't pretty.

All these "feelings" and "expectations" would rise up in me. I would frequently "set myself up" for a fall by overthinking even the least little actions. And boy when I felt like he wasn't "really sorry" for all he did to me, my "entitlement" rose up and reared it's ugly head.

My FWH would also quietly say, "I understand." He would also say that he had to fix him before he could think about fixing us. That made me furious! What about me?!?! What about what you did to me?!?! All the lies?!?! Why aren't you bending over backwards to kiss my a$$? (This was all going on in my mind so a really minor thing would bubble over big time for no "apparent" reason.) I almost ruined my hopes of recovery by getting stuck in this cycle.

There has to come a point where you wash the slate clean and focus on TODAY only. What could he POSSIBLY do or say when you confront him with your hurts? He says he understands, but not with enough feelings you say. How do you know? Maybe he's afraid to be truthful with you because he's afraid of the volcanic eruption that might happen.

I remember having these conversations in my head and the whole time thinking, "What are you doing PM? What do you expect him to do?" I didn't know. I just knew I wanted the pain HE CAUSED to go away and HE was the ONLY person that could fix it. It wasn't until I realized that I was HANGING ON TIGHT to my hurt. I deserved it. He was NOT going to forget it if I had anything to do with it.

It wasn't until I came around and told myself, enough. Do I want this marriage or do I want to FORCE recovery MY WAY? I had to step back and start taking my own inventory. I finally got it and began to apologize to HIM for my craziness. I was gentle. He was gentle. We cautiously began the walk back towards each other. The PAST became off limits except in controlled and safe discussions.

Mopey, I feel your pain. I really do. I relate so much. But I don't believe running away is the answer. I think running to is.

Lol Princess Meggy!


That's me for sho! And shouldn't they be kissing our a$$es? I know I would get over this in a hurry if he was "doing everything he could'.

So, I have to settle to stay married?

After you decided it wasn't going to happen your way.....lol....did he finally give you what you needed or you just decided that you really didn't need it? I can't feel that coming to me anytime soon.

It was pretty amazing actually. The longer into recovery, the more reality hit him where before he just had an inkling of the damage he'd caused. Yes, he finally gave me what I needed. Here's some of the things he's done (and is doing) since recovery:

1. About a month ago he left me little post it notes all over our condo in hidden places. I opened the kitchen cabinet, they were there. I went into the guest bathroom, there was one on the mirror. I opened the fridge, there was one on the milk. I opened my closet, there was one hanging on a sleeve of a dress. There had to have been at least 30 of them and I'm still finding them.

2. He instigates cuddles and is affectionate. This was a man who NEVER would do that before.

3. He TELLS other people about the damage he caused and how much he hurt me. He's in Bible school now studying for the ministry and the opportunity has come up several times to share his story to small groups and individuals.

4. He is careful to consider my feelings in every small thing (except the da*m remote!) LOL

5. He calls me up just to say hi.

6. He cleans up the kitchen every night (this is the most undomesticated man I know, never happened before in 25 years of marriage).

There's lots more. We have a whole different marriage now. We still have our moments, but they are pretty benign and boring moments now (like him changing the channel in the middle of American IDOL - the nerve!!).

The big issues? They don't become big anymore. We won't let them. We nip things in the bud and discuss immediately.

How long did that take you PM?




Tons of reassuring words backed up by actions?



I have a BIG problem with this one. I am soooooo sick of hearing people say that "he doesn't feel safe". I think it's bullchit. He has been a conflict avoider his entire life and it doesn't matter what I say or how I say it, "he doesn't feel safe". My MC/IC told me she thinks he uses this as an excuse to listen to my pain. And btw, so far, my H thinks highly of her. Hmmmmmm..





But I don't want to hang onto the hurt. I just wanted him to "step up" and meet my recovery needs so I could let go of the hurt faster. My last d-day was 5 months ago. I want to be done with this crap asap. I feel like his "reluctance" and lying is why recovery is taking so long.




Boy, you got me there. I wonder if that will be me in a few months? I'd be willing to bet my H isn't holding his breath for that one. How long did THAT take PM?

I just got back on to post...been dealing with my boys...my ODS is pretty sick. He's been dealing with a cough all week and the the fever hit him tonight like a freight train. The little one is coughing now, too..

Anyways, I read through all the posts since mine. What PM just said is almost exactly what I was going to say, only coming from a BS, not a WS, has to mean a little more I should think! The only thing is, Dr. Harley (from what I have read) would recommend a separation in this case because mopey and windstopped are stuck in this destructive pattern and have been for quite some time. That is why I said this time, the separation has to be a time where peace can be restored individually, and then they can come back together as a couple- minus the battle ground setting. They can look forward to being together in a date-like setting for now, and focus on the things that they like about each other during their dates. Living together every day with all that anger and resentment bubbling under the surface is not helping AT ALL. And it isn't healthy. I presume it is why (PM) your tag line says "shoulda been the MB way." If you had been exposed to the MB principles, you would have recognized right away that hanging on to all that anger was counter-productive to recovery. (We did it, too, BTW, so I am certainly not judging ANYONE here...you ladies DO deserve everything you need from your WHs to recover).

It is also why Dr. Harley suggests "Just Compensation." Because what your BH's and I have done is horrible, and anyone would react the way you have...

I hope I am making sense, here- because I am still learning, too!

So, PM, he gave you love in HIS way. My H was doing that too. Except I felt there were things he didn't take my feelings into consideration for...

How long PM? How long did it take for you to not want him to do it your way? Do you feel like you've settled? Or what?

Yes you make sense LaLa.

I am soooo sorry the kids are getting sick. That sucks too.

I have to go eat dinner, before I starve to death, and later would love to discuss "just compensation". Oh wait, what's the point right? It has to be his way for now.

I'm stubborn aren't I.



What did yall do LaLa? Hmmmmmm? Misery luvs company you know. PM & LH4E just made me feel like I am not alone in this pain land.

I want to say that it took me until about a year to a year and 1/2 ago (that was almost two years into recovery. I was getting sick of tearing down what little we managed to build. It's like I would be okay for a week or two and then WHAM, I'd be right back where I started (usually because I experienced a trigger and he didn't even know it!) Of course I had to SHARE my trigger and all that RAGE that came back with it.




But you said yourself you don't believe him. What SPECIFIC actions? That's what used to get me stuck. I knew I wanted that too and I WANTED IT NOW but I couldn't SPECIFICALLY say what that was. My husband in his understandable frustration would say, "What EXACTLY do you need me to do?" I'd go down the list... love me... listen to me... make me feel better... I was asking the impossible. What I really wanted was for it to all have never happened. So SPECIFICALLY what could he do for you? In a normal routine marriage kind of way? You can't have romance all the time... life gets in the way. You CAN have commitment where the THREAT of walking away is never voiced.




LOL, my FWH is a BIG CA as well. He's gotten better because he's figured out that in the long run he's gonna have to deal with it. But it's not bullchit. Have you ever told him this? I want you to feel safe. I want to feel safe. How can we make that happen?




Five months ago is not that long ago. You are WAY early into recovery. It's going to take a LONG time. Baby steps every day.




That happened as the same time I mentioned above. I KNEW I was destroying our recovery by my own actions now. Only time would heal at that point. He had done the work on his personal recovery, I was still living in my pain. I really guess you could say I was verbally beating him over the head with everything that happened at every opportunity. It didn't take much to get me going down that path. I had to finally force myself to "not go there" at times and wait things out. Sometimes those "feelings" and things that "just needed to be said" didn't need to be express after all.

What surprised me is that eventually we did get the things that needed to be said... said. But it was later, in a calmer, quieter and loving environment.

That's awesome PM. Unfortunately, I couldn't appreciate much of what Windstopped did because I wuz resentful. Still am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm killin me.

And there ya have it. In a nutshell. Do you want true recovery or do you want to be resentful (that's what I call hanging on to your hurt)? As Reba's son-in-law would say in one word... "letitgo".

I'll be back later. I've gotta go pick my hubby up. He went to Austin yesterday. Now where'd I hide that remote?

PM....that's some good stuff you just wrote me there. I have to take a break and go get some food.

Thanks soooooo much for helping me to not feel alone.

If you guys are on later, I'll be here. I'm going to eat, curl up with some wine, and post here and cry my eyeballs out until tommorow. Then, I'm checking my [censored] into the GODDESS thread and making a list.

I want to repsond to your last post PM. I'll be back and thanks for stopping in.

Oh absolutely! I don't know how many times I've said I wished I'd found MB way back when it all started. I would of saved myself a lot of time and self-inflicted hurt. (I'm sure I would of have been 2x4'd a zillion times by the VETS.)

I don't recommend the long way around that I took to anyone, because even though we got to real recovery eventually, it was difficult and painful. I just see where Mopey's headed and I don't want to see her hurt unnecessarily.

What did we do? Well, basically we were stuck in a vicious cycle of DH being right where you are now, and me being in LaLa Land (pun intended). I was (unknowingly at the time) in "fake it till you make it" mode...A couple weeks after D-day, I took him to a casino a couple hrs away and tried to have some fun and re-connect with him. I even scheduled us facials because I thought he would get a kick out of it and it would relax us both a little. (he didn't care for it much, BTW, he is not a "facial" kinda guy!) What happened: he wanted to talk about the A and the R the whole time. I saw it as him trying to tear down what I was trying to re-build. There were probably 20 other occasions like this over a six month period...where I tried to schedule alone time so we could re-connect and he wanted to talk R and A the whole time, which inevitably ended up in a fight. I didn't know what to do. We were both stuck, and I got tired of trying to "make" things work between us, only to be "drug back down in the dirt" by DH.

Can you see the similarities here??

So, what had to happen was- I had to realize it had nothing to do with token nights away to show him I still cared (or flowers or cards, etc), because the underlying fact was, I was still holding onto justifications and past resentment (of why the A happened in the first place-where our M had been b4 all of it) and he could FEEL that, no matter what I DID.

It came down to the mindset, plain and simple. You were here that night, you know what happened to me. You heard the chit I was spewing. It was gaslighting- plain and simple. And I was so scared to lose him. I told you, he was where you are right now...unwilling to settle for less than what he knows he deserves. You can take a piece of chit and you can coat it in gold, then paint it and put pretty little clothes on it and make-up and the whole nine yards...but when you get to the bottom of it-it's still a piece of CHIT. We had a great R b4 all of this, so he knew what that meant within our R dynamic.

But, what would have happened if I had remained stubborn like so many WSs do? He would have either had to settle for whatever I was willing to give him, or we would be in the middle of a D.

Exactly, PM, we took the long way and it was soooo painful. I wish so many things....wish we hadn't disconnected, wish I hadn't had the A, wish I had realized the pain I had cause him, wish I had come here sooner, YOU NAME IT!

The place mopey is in right now BITES!!!! I wouldn't WISH it on my worst enemy!

Wow LaLa! Thanks so much for sharing that with me! Yall were mess'd up too!....just not as much as me but still.....lol.......that makes me feel better in a sick kind of way......lol....




L.M.A.O!!!!! I bet W2S has a ball with that one...lol...

I'm wiped right now and want to soak in hot tub. I'll mull yallz stuff over some more while there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Calgon, take me the freak away!......... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey there hope your day is a little better today. As everyone keeps telling me keep your chin up things can only get better from here on out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> hugs from me and baby LH4E

Ah, thanks L4H.

Just been doing a lot of thinking today.

Almost checked into the GODDESS thread, but didn't. I looked at the last post on there and someone was checking in with all the goddessy things she's done so far today and I hadn't even gotten out of my PJ's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So, I got up and got out of my PJ's, straightened up the house and am working on my laundry. I really need to be studying too. I have a test Wednesday and I haven't even opended the book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for stopping by. Hope you guys are doing well too.

Along with calgon.....*beam me up Scotty*! I'd rather my atoms were scattered across the universe than to be in the spot I am now!!

mopey....it does get better. And when it does (when it REALLY does) I hope you'll change your name to reflect that. In the meantime, from dopey to mopey:

(((((((((((((((mopey))))))))))))))))

I'm having a small meltdown over here. I've done pretty good today, considering. Deep pain just below the surface but it has just reached the top again. I am sooooooooooooooo sick of crying! I never thought it was humanly possible to cry as much as I have over the last 16 months! I am keeping the tissue makers in business.

Honestly you guys, I am afraid. I am afraid of not being able to get over it.

He has literally cheated on me since I've known him. He told me he NEVER felt guilty for any of it, until now, supposedly.

He's flirted and used porn throughout our marriage and it left me with a huge esteem problem where his words would help, but I don't believe him. And a lot of times his words hurt as well.


This one is old but he told me he had feelings for the OW he fell in love (lust) with that he never had for me. That still cuts me like a knife. He says he never had those kinds of butterfly feelings for me even when we were dating.

He has spoon feed me small details sprinkled with lies FOR 15 MONTHS. He minimized EVERYTHING from the get go.

He failed one of the three questions on the polygraph test and I've caught him in 2 lies since the test.

He told me once about 10 months ago or so that he didn't think I deserved compassion and when confronted, he back peddled. I honestly feel he stills feels this way sometimes.

I feel he tries to blame his "FOO" issues for his behavior when he knew the difference between right and wrong. Otherwise, he wouldn't have hidden it now would he?

He has played video games while I've cried uncontrollably because of a trigger and then "lack of emotion" from him.

He has been defensive in every conversation but TWO since it all started.

He didn't even tell our son goodbye when he left. No note, no phone call nothing. He did this when he left me for that OW before too. He barely spoke to the kids at all. I have no respect for men like that.

I have been angry over what "I found out", and rightly so, only to be more upset because what he told me was a lie and find out later it's all worse than what he said. The more I get upset over the lies and continual dripping of info, the more *I* am blamed for him "not feeling safe".

There were about 5 written request I asked of him to get a timeline and such that was approved by Jennifer Harley. I asked him for some of these things over a year ago. I asked for reassuring words that are there on an inconsistent basis. And his words, due to his prior appeasement and lying, leave me to wonder what is true and what isn't.


I know me and what he's doing isn't enough for me. I don't feel like anyone really understands the debth of betrayal I feel.

We never had a great marriage and I struggled and wanted to. Windstopped checked out of the marriage from day one. He admits this.

All the above is a lot of pain to deal with. I had so low hopes of him ever trying to comfort me that I asked for no contact. I don't want to dissapointed when I don't hear from him because he's doing something fun.

I honestly feel like I am setting myself up for the next step. I just want the pain to stop. Windstopped has NEVER been there for me emotionally and I fear he never will.

I needed to get that off my chest even though I've said it all before.

I just don't see him as my hero.

Night everybody.

Oh, Starfish, thanks. I needed the hug. I'll give some thought to the name. I agree.

I can't go to bed without listing the positives.

He wants to have fun with ME. And I do have fun with him.

He tells me things I wish I could believe.

He is the best kisser I have ever had. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Among other things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He's reading a lot of self help books.

He's in counseling.

He's being transparent. Or at least he was until I asked for no contact.

Do you think the former waywards would forgive someone like me for taking it all so bad? I haven't been the "model BS". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I do know it's not all of my fault.

Of course it's not all your fault. He needs to come to a place of compassion and understanding of what you need to heal. I explained yesterday about the change in perspective. He is just not there. Maybe some of it is because of the way you have reacted, but I'm not sure about that. There is so much about him that has been false. You are not faced with one infidelity situation here. He has admitted being "checked out" of the M from the beginning...what do you DO with something like that?

He tells you things you wish you could believe, but the problem is, he also lies and gaslights and blames his past and brings things into the equation that are irrelevant (what is the deal with FOO...good grief), etc. He is reading self help books, that's great. But here's the thing. I could read self help books till the cows come home, and it wouldn't make me understand the pain I have caused my husband because of my A any freakin better!!!! He can explore his "inner workings" until his outer workings get old and wrinkled but it isn't going to bring him any closer to the TRUTH about what he has done to your M. Do you get where I am going with this?

I truly do not know what it is gonna take for him to move beyond himself and start thinking about YOU. How to care for and nurture YOU as his WIFE. Sometimes I think there is maybe just too much here to get over. I think he needs to work on more than his SELF. He is reading the HNHN books and reading the MB principles, but the question is...WHAT IS DOING ABOUT IT. Reading it doesn't make it your reality. It's the inner shift that you are looking for and longing for and he just hasn't gotten it yet. Will he? I don't know. What will get him there? I don't know that, either.

The point I have made all along is that you have the potential to be happy with or without him. To be with him, he needs to be in it 100%. But you can find that happiness within yourself and therefore when you do allow him back into your life, it will be because he has come to a place of understanding of what it takes to be a happily married couple. Not because he is sorry enough or contrite enough or whatever, but because you feel the change in him beyond the measure of words. Do you have the right to depend on him for your happiness...yes, to a certain point. But demanding that he get there or else isn't going to make it happen. Finding happiness and peace within yourself creates a setting where you can be strong and clear in your choice of whether he is in the right mindset to make this M work. The end of the "madness" in other words, starts with YOU, not him. YOU have to take back control of your happiness and then let him be a PART of that if he has come to a place where he can ADD to your joy.

The first step to your happiness, though, starts with YOU.

Mopey,

Don't worry about what the rest of the BS's here think. It's about how you feel. There is no doubt that this is some of the hardest chit that ANYONE can go through and with the 4 Ddays you've been hit with it's no wonder you're still struggling to move past them. No one here is going to fault you for that.

From what I've read, of yours and WindStopped's threads this is my take on things. You've both stated all the things he is doing to try to give you "just compensation" for his actions. Where things seem to be going wrong is that he still isn't taking responsibility for the feelings and pain this has caused you. So, he's doing what he can to make changes but he sees your emotions as being punishment for HIS choices. This is so much like what LaLa and I struggled with. Where we would spend a week where things would be going pretty well then out of nowhere I would have a trigger or a bad day and she saw it as me just punishing her with my emotions. She would withdraw from me and then this would cause me to rehash everything in my head trying to figure out if my feelings were justified. Once I rehashed everything in my head and would confront LaLa with my feelings It would come out in anger causing even more resentment. This was the vicious cycle we were stuck in for months before we both came to MB.

The only thing that broke this cycle was when LaLa started posting here and her perspective of the situation changed. Once she realized that the emotions and feelings I have were out of my control at times and that they were a consequence of her choices it made things so much better. Now, when I'm having a hard time or the emotions of the past year get to me, she is right there to ask if there is anything she can do to help me. For the most part, I try to deal with my triggers and stuff on my own as to spare my DW more pain than she already feels for whats happened. The differnce is I KNOW that if I can't shake a feeling or if things are really bothering me I can go to her for support without fearing her reaction. I can count on her to be the loving caring woman I fell in love with because she no longer sees my feelings as punishment.

That is where I think the 2 of you are going wrong. Windstopped has to step up and totally own responsibility for the feelings his actions have caused you. Then you have to be sure not to use your emotions to punish him for his actions. Believe me, I know what a delicate balancing act this is.

Hi again mopey-

I read through your recent posts, and I am struck by how they are all about HIM.

What about you?

In your corner,
~Saturn

Thanks LaLa...



Yes, this is where I need to be. Thank you again.

It is definitely a balancing act.

Thanks for understanding.

As PM said, I need to work on "lettingitgo".

Hi SR,





Any suggestions on where I should start?

Glad you asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A good way to start is to make a “pie chart” of yourself. First list all the important categories of your life.

Here are some parts to my chart:
Career
Children
Home environment
Friends
Finances
Spiritual
Community
Time use
Marriage
Extended Family
Health

Next, write out what “success” would look like in each category. For example: Success in my “Friends” category looks like:
*making time to email or phone each of my close friends at least once a month
*arranging a girl’s night out once a month for dinner & movie
*Special outings with my kids and friends with children (picnic in the park, trip to zoo, etc)
*inviting someone new over for dinner every three months

Then grade yourself in each category. For my Friends section, I give myself a “2” because I dropped a lot of friendships as my problems led me to become more isolated (most of my friends just get a Xmas card each year and nothing else), I invite other kids to special outings but not their parents (so not really focusing on my friendships, just my kid’s friendships!), and I haven’t had anyone over for dinner in YEARS. So I really need to work on that part of my life!!! The only thing I do well is girl’s night out, but it only happens about once every three months and I’d like for it to be monthly.

When you finish all the categories, make a circle on paper and assign one category to each slice of the pie. Then color in the chart by your grade to make deficiencies visible (the pie will collapse in areas where you’ve neglected yourself).

This way, you might see that you’ve spent so much time focusing on your marriage that there’s not much left over for YOU. As LaLa says, you need to nurture yourself now- you desperately need it! Don’t get overwhelmed by the stuff you want to do- just pick ONE pie slice to focus on for a particular length of time (like a week). Even small changes that improve your overall wellbeing will make a big impact on your general mood.

I hope you feel better soon...
{{{{mopey}}}}

Saturn, you're the bomb. Thanks for taking the time to write all of that out. I like the idea.

I do know that I have let all of those other areas of my life slide because I thought my marriage needed so much of my focus since the d-year started.

But this will be good for me now. To try to put back the other pieces of my life.

I can almost already see what the pie is going to look like before I even write it down and that is not a pretty picture.

Thanks again.

(((mopey)))

I'm married to a former serial cheater.

I had a false recovery because I accepted the CRUMBS my FWH was handing to me, much like yours. My husband had another affair during that false recovery and was caught kissing the woman in our own home by our then 16 year old son. He had brought her home as 'the babysitter' while I was away at college-- something he had encouraged me to do. I was dumb enough to go.

Anyway, the night of my last D-day, which was his confession over the phone WITH THE WOMAN STILL IN OUR HOUSE, I went absolutely positively ballistic. We call that Plan F U around here, although my only plan that night was Plan D. I was just getting it all out on the phone and he had NEVER heard me say some of the things I said. Let's just say I had both my FWH and the OW in tears. OW thought he was getting a divorce and had custody of the children. Guess I should mention she was 19 and pregnant (about 4 months) and I actually had to ask my FWH if he was the father. I think it was that night my husband hit his rockbottem.

That was when he realized I absolutly was MORE than willing to leave him, even if it broke my heart.

THAT was when he stopped shifting blame and took FULL responsibility for his actions. It was THAT night he FINALLY understood the pain he was causing the ENTIRE family.

It was that night that I stopped worrying about HIM and started living for ME. I handed almost all the work to him. HE f'd up, he better damn well fix it.

If the WS is truly repentent, they will be willing to do MOST the work and that also includes dealing with the hurt they've caused the BS.

IF your WH is not willing to deal with your hurt, is not comforting you when you need it, is not willing to hear about your feelings or give you compassion... then he is not truly repentent and is still a WS.


I'm glad that you are in a frame of mind that you are no longer willing to accept a half-a$$ed recovery.

You know Mojo, this whole "false recovery" thing scares me to death. I honestly just cannot fathom him inflicting any more pain on me with more infidelity. I've heard of many false recoveries but I don't think our trouble is more women, oh God, I hope not.

But I have had a problem with him dragging his feet on certain things and I don't care how you look at it, it "causes a spouse to be unhappy". I have been told over and over again that I need to not have any expectations. And I'm thinking that I should have at least some.

If I settle, I'll be sacraficing someone said, and that's not good for a marriage. But I've also been told I have to give it time and not expect stuff when I expect it. I just don't know how to balance that. I'm not waiting around another 6 months for some of the things I asked for either I don't think. Actions speak to me and inaction will tell me a lot.

My trouble has been that I let his lack of whatever effect me to the point of losing my temper and saying harse things. I have been focusing on my pain and letting everything else be put on the back burner almost. I've just be "getting by" and I need to focus more on other areas of my life so that I am not consumed by him.

At this point I haven't figured out what is healthy for me to expect from him and what isn't. I don't want to be demanding but I don't want to be sacraficing either.

I'm really glad things turned around for you Mojo.

Hi Mopey,

I'm checking in on how you are doing. I like the pie chart advice you got. Have you done it yet?

Update....

I have not drawn the pie chart yet, but I know the "family" and "career" pieces of the pie are pretty small.

So, today I talked with my daughter, whom I have a strained relationship with, and talked to her and also am making plans to get with her this week to do dinner. That's good. I'm going to try to make weekly dates with her. I want to ask her and my son how much time they think they need with me and see if we can come to a mutual agreement on that.

My human resources mgmt professor told a us last week that the project mgmt field was a great field to go into now, and it's always something that I've been interested in. So I asked her about it after class that day and she suggested I google some info on it. Well, I didn't do much about it after that. I was focused on other things.

Well today, when she walked in she came over to me and handed me a pamplet that tells all about a project mgmt center right here at our school. They have many classes I could take to help me with this. I am stoked. Nudge from God? Not sure.

I just called our counseling office at the university and set up an appt for a degree evaluation and career counseling in this area. Boy, I sure hope some of these classes will apply towards my degree. I'm pretty sure I can use some of them for electives.

And lastly, I e-mailed Windstopped and told him I wanted to forget about the no contact. I also asked him if he would prefer to have no contact for himself.

I also apologized for all the times he felt I punished him, and for all the times I did.

I feel like I need contact if I'm to see where this is going.

I do know I have to be careful with my heart so I hope I can do this and balance expectations vs sacrafice.

I've been in this exact same place before when he left me during an affair in early 2005 and I had gotten to a peaceful point before he came back. All the work I did on myself (it wasn't much though) went out the window and we still struggled. We didn't have MB then either.

At this point, I don't know he wants to stick it out with me either.

Thanks for all of the support friends.

I'm hanging in there Skinsgal. I've been going through the motions with my stomach in knots and feeling the growing pains. But other than that, hey, I'm great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for asking. I'll check your thread later. I see MiMi got onto you in your thread....heh heh heh....that stinking thinking will get you in trouble every time, won't it? I totally understand though.

Another update.....

Windstopped just sent me the sweeeeeeetest e-mails. He had been saving up e-mails for transparency and openess of his feelings and saving them for when or if I broke "no contact". That is the sweetest thing he could have done for me today.

Oh, and he said he "DEFINITELY" wanted contact. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is why I want to try.

That and not taking care of myself will be my undoing.

I'm glad you are doing ok.

How did he react to what you have said and done with respect to contact?

Skinsgal, he was awesome. He respected the "no contact" even though part of me desperately wanted him to break it....lol.....But I'm grateful he did respect my wishes.

I just updated above about what he did during no contact and it was the sweetest, most thoughtful, no contact scenario I could think of.

I would love to post his e-mails because they were so wonderful and heartfelt. And I felt it that time. And I felt it due in part to what Princess Meggy had told me. Thanks PM!

One last thing in case I didn't make myself clear.....We are still separated. I just wanted to get rid of "no contact".

No reason for you to be in no contact Mopey. The issue is WHAT are you doing while separated? Because if you don't deal with your anger and do some anger management then being separated won't help either of you at all.

I really hope you will BOTH learn how to be together without AO's and DJ's and violence.

Please share. I said a bunch this weekend and I'd like to know what helped.

Hey BK. 2x4 well received.

I only asked for no contact because I didn't want to be upset if he didn't try to comfort me while gone. I've changed that.



This is why we are separated. So we don't lose our love for each other until we can get the anger stuff resolved. I've already told my IC/MC that I need to work on the anger stuff. I will ask her when I go this week if she knows of more I can work on outside her office.

And BK, if I promise to be good, will you please stop being so serious with me all the time now so I can laugh at you...err, I mean with you again? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

oh yeah Mopey - for sure! I want you guys to make it and I will be happy to see this a fun thread again....

Yay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Princess Meggy.....




Well, your whole story actually is what helped me but these in particular........














I could envision myself "lettingitgo" (which would bring me peace) and just sitting back and being grateful for the times when out of the blue Windstopped does something awesome.

That's great Mopey, I'm glad I could help. It makes what I went through have some purpose. I have high hopes for you and hubby.

PM.....lol.....I was picturing you where I am now, then you giving up "having it your way". I actually pictured you laid out on a couch in front of a cozy fireplace soaking in the loving gestures that came your way from your H. You know the ones, the UNEXPECTED ones.....lol.....

I just related so much to your story, like you did mine. That was cool. Thanks. Now you see? You may have just shaved 6 months off me being a suffering ba$[censored] because you've been there and warned me.

I know other people have tried to tell me the same thing but sometimes it just doesn't sink in until you hear it a certain way at a certain time. KWIM?

Can't thank you enough.

I'm glad that you are ending the no contact and I definately want to echo what's been said before: seek anger management courses as soon as you can.

Personally I think the 'keeping the child safe' thing his therapist is doing is a bunch of crap.

I'm much more solution oriented-- I'm not huge into the WHY (because honestly, is any answer ever good enough?) but I'm very into the HOW can things change from this point on.

I look at my FWH (well, when he is home LOL) and its like dealing with a multiple personality. The man who was never faithful uur entire first 11 years doesn't even exist now. The man I'm with now is someone I'm proud of, and I'm getting so very close to allowing myself more vulnerability.

I know if (or when) he betrays me again, ITS NOT ABOUT ME, and was NEVER ABOUT ME.

You honestly need to accept that none of this is caused or about you. Its a major character flaw in Windstopped that allowed his choices. He has to work on that as well as the anger.

I live with my FWH thinking, "How would I like to be treated?" and I mirror those thoughts in my behavior. My home is a sanctuary. You can make yours one, too.

AMEN

Couldn't agree more. As I said on his thread - drop that sucker on his head!!

Hi again MD!




This is one area where I pray I don't fail.

My husband has always wanted a house with peace. So do I, and I hope we can get there.

I'm hearing ya about the FOO stuff. And don't worry, my IC/MC is also his IC/MC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I know it was his previous character flaws and other things that let this happen, but it is so hard to not feel good enough when it does happen. I think over the past year I have been getting a better handle on that, but I still need to hear it often. Thanks for saying it.



I can see this happening with Windstopped. And I'm thrilled for you.

I really appreciate the encouragement and the honesty. I can take the hard stuff now I think.

I'm trying to be good BK. You're not helping....lol.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mopey,

I am really proud of the steps you are taking. You are doing wonderfully and have some really strong people guiding you.

I too had anger issues. The only difference, is since WH has been gone I don't have that anger inside of me. It just evaporated. Even when I am with him, I realize that I just don't carry it inside of me.

One day, with work and G-d you will realize it is no longer a part of you and you will enjoy a freedom that I can't explain.

ROTFLMAO

I am so not into psychobabble.

Oh do tell! Why do you think that happened?

Is it because you no longer expected anything? You're now in control of your own happiness and can share it?

Don't leave me hanging now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ahem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL

No, it's because I inherently changed as a person. I became and continue to become the woman that G-d always envisioned for me. I find my strength in the peace that grows in me. Though I am still struggling immensely in what is happening, I am not crazy. I don't live in chaos.

I am becoming a soft spoken woman who walks with G-d next to her. I don't need the anger anymore. I can't explain it any other way.

My anger somehow protected me from my WH, it has for years actually. I don't need that protection anymore because G-d is watching over me.

You gotta know, I haven't had SF in almost 2 years. I don't leave anyone hanging. LOL....:)

Ouch! ROFL!



Wow. Good place to be in. In fact, on someone's thread last night (maybe Ark's?) that is the message I got and it brought me alot of peace. And I saw that carried out in Princess Meggy's story to me.

Like she said......just "letitgo".

Venting......

So, I just read Windstopped's latest post and I'm a little ticked.

He had an IC appt today. Said in his post that the counselor said she didn't recommend separation. I believe her words to me were "I think you should separate" and "why haven't you done it already?". I have an appt with her tommorow. It should be interesting.

He is also accusing me of LB's in our e-mail exchanges. He just sent me an e-mail stating "we're not to send hurtful e-mails to each other and we both needed to stop" or close to it. This was after I asked him "what is your reasoning for dragging your feet on some of the stuff I asked of you?". Didn't seem like an LB to me. Looking for honesty and openess.

Mind you, he basically shut me off again last night, like he did tonight.

I also expressed some pain I was feeling over a trigger he gave me today. Asked me if I wanted some info on butt exercises. Since I have bad knees, he thought it would be helpful. I told him it was not a good time because of a trigger the whole "butt" thing is. He told me the OW had a cute butt. I didn't ask for that information. He's never told me that before d-year. It hurt. Now he wants to help me with butt exercises.

Almost everything seems to me like an LB to him. I'm soooo sick of it.

Can I get a break?

Edited

Not to mention he didn't tell me about what the counselor said before he posted it.

And the part about "not feeling anxiety when he walks in the door. That's ok".

He's trying to make it sound like I hound him about this crap on a daily basis. I do not. After I've had my fill of lack of compassion for me on occassion, I do withdraw and I'm sure he feels anxiety during that time.

It feels like he tries to hurt me with his posts most of the time. And I'm too lazy to go through them all. I feel like he has been dishonest on some things. Just don't care.

So after he shuts me down with HIS last e-mail, I called him and asked him if he was busy or ignoring me. I thought we were having a conversation. So he irritatingly says "what questions". I asked him to read the e-mails. He said "if I feel like it I will", in his irritated voice. I said fine and hung up.

Makes me feel cherished.

Sounds like a selfish twit to me.

He's not making this recovery stuff easy for me at all.

Every time he shuts me down I want to go straight to plan FU. Is that o.k. that I say this here on my thread?

Well I can't speak for the new mods, but it's sure OK with me!

Thanks guys. Thanks for letting me vent.

Now he's back peddling. And right now I don't give a flip.

We're done.

This e-mail (part of it) just came from Windstopped.......

Call me crazy Mopey but I don't read it like that.

mopey,

His nasty and outrageous comments, on everything from suggesting you try "butt exercises" to suggesting you separate, are all clearly meant to push your buttons and throw you into a meltdown. Why? So HE can be the poor innocent victim and everything is YOUR fault.

Honey, whether you stay with him or not, you've got to move your buttons. It is blatantly obvious from here on the sidelines that he does this deliberately and then just sits back and waits for the horrified, wounded, raging reaction from you. It's sadly obvious and you MUST understand this.

Move your buttons. Just teach yourself to expect the worst and stupidest and most selfish and hurtful things imagineable to come out of his mouth -- and when they do, you can just shake your head and say, "You know, I really do feel sorry for you. I really do." And then WALK AWAY.

I posted a lot of stuff on the MB thread below on how to handle this crap. And 99% of it has stopped at my house. (Oh, he still goes out with the girls on his business trips, but at least he no longer tries to bully and torment me with the passive/aggressive garbage because That Stopped Working).

If you want, I'll repost some of the "How to Deal With P/A Garbage" here for you to read again. He's got you right where he wants you and you have GOT to move your buttons, just for your own protection and peace of mind!

hang in there -
Mulan

You don't know him BigK.

Mulan, I appreciate it but I don't want to stay with a man who pushes my buttons and then plays the victim.

His actions and those statements of his makes it clear to me that he doesn't want to put in the effort. He doesn't do the concrete things I asked and then feels upset that he can't stop hurting me. That and him putting me down.

He once again has made me feel worthless. I am done.

This e-mail came after I let him know I was hurt that he didn't make me a priority today. It went from there.....

In all fairness to him regarding the "butt exercises"....I think he really was trying to be helpful. I was hurt that he didn't see that as a trigger before he did it though. And the comment he made about the OW having a cute butt was awhile ago. Not when he was helping.

It just felt insensitive to me but that one is a hard call. I think he was trying to be helpful.

But the separation thing? That's another story.

I'm crushed. But I'm strong enough to handle it, I think.

I feel like if I have to heal alone, I might as well BE alone.

He says I'm too negative. I guess I shouldn't have told him about my hurt feelings and just told him that everything will be fine honey. Take your time.

He gave me access to his e-mial some time ago. During our separation I found an e-mail from some woman he said was spam. Could definitely be. The title of the e-mail was "I love thee" or something like that. I clicked on it. He seemed understanding about it the other night. Was worried that I may have put a virus on my computer. I mentioned that the effects of his actions go far and wide. So, essentially I blamed him for that.

Tonight, he called me an IDIOT for clicking on the email.

And the hurtful comment that he made to me yesterday? He said that "even if he told me the truth about sleeping with, and trying to sleep with other women, that I would have probably married him anyway". He slept with two women and tried to sleep with more while we were in a committed relationship before the marriage.

He apologized but I wonder if he really thinks that low of me.

All of this has caused me hurt. I expressed it. I did tell him that I was on the fence with him and he really didn't deserve another chance with me. But he sees me as being too negative, not meeting his needs, and he doesn't see a good future for us.

Then he logged off and went to bed. He logged off shortly after he sent me (finally) a list of all the women he flirted with at work, had EA/PAs with and then he logged off.

Wasn't that thoughtful?

He broke it down into categories...

Flirts 18 (he's sure there's more. That's was only the ones from work)

Innapropriate relationships 5

EA/PAs 6 but he left out the girl he tried to kiss at a party 2 wks before we married so that makes 7 in all.

I thanked him for the list.

He never told me about some of the "flirts" even though I've asked him this before. He never told me about the one where he is employed now. I don't know how hard they flirted or when that went on.

That list was one of my recovery needs that I asked for a long time ago that he dragged his feet on. So NOW he gives it to me and HE feels almost? done.

If he told me about the girl at his present job I don't remember. I think I would remember that for sure.

Ok, I'm coming from the vantage point of a 'recovered' BS married to a former serial adulterer-- with children.

Run. Run. Run.

This is a DESTRUCTIVE relationship and you are dealing with a selfish child. His actions and his words are telling you all you need to know.

Some may disagree with me, but that's how I see it.

I don't feel he sees it that way. He sees it as me being the complaining, selfish, child I think.

I mean after all, I'm too negative, I had expressed hurt and anger over not meeting my needs for recovery CONSTANTLY he says.

He was upset that I didn't give him enough encoragment about our future as well.

How did you get recovered Mojo? Was your husband different or were you?

Actually I remembered your story about your last d-day but I don't know how your recovery went after the last d-day.

*edited

Even though I told him I didn't think he deserved another chance, I did tell him I believed in miracles and that I needed him to fight for me until I could get through this.

I guess all he can see is the negative. I was hurt and not too hopeful last night when he made that mean comment to me.

Give me a few minutes to think about this, k! I just got caught up...

Hi LaLa. I don't feel so good. I think I need to go to bed and pray I can sleep.

I did things over the weekend to help with not focusing on him. I was trying to concentrate on my "pie". But I did email and speak to Windstopped a few times over the weekend.

I hung out with my kids on Friday evening and I ran errands on Friday, and did some house cleaning Saturday as well as visit with my daughter for a about an hour yesterday. I didn't get a much as I wanted to though yesterday because I felt really upset after what he said to me. It kind of deflated me.

I will also be focusing on getting a job as well. I was suppose to be in school full time this past year but all this happened my first semester of the year and have only been going to school part time.

Of course I cook, clean, shop, etc as well.

{{{{{{Mopey}}}}}}}

My heart is there with you and holding you tight with love. I can imagine how hard this is for you and admire your strength and willingness to do what you need. That will help you heal and go far.

What were you going to school for?

ok Mopey - I DO think he needs to fight for you and stop being such a wussy boy.

I am so sorry about where you guys are. I actually agree that he is pushing your buttons with that email. If he wanted a D, he would have come out and said so. He doesn't, just likes to get a reaction out of you.

The comment about you would have married him even if you had known about the cheating is f'd up. Your bullchit detector is on high frequency and you need to trust your instincts here. Even if we are ALL wrong and he is really trying and feels nothing he does is good enough or WHATEVER, the perptual state of pain is not good for you. You need to heal, and these painful jabs only seem to get worse. He is still saying some pretty YUCKY things, mopers.

You know what this is all about! You are reading it on several threads right now. Do what you need to do to heal. I want you to be happy again!

I wish BK would just quit beating around the bush and say how he really feels...sheesh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

you're killing me here LaLa.

HAHAHA...GET IT...BEATING AROUND THE BUSH...FROM THE OUTBACK...HAHAHA... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, It's 2:30 a.m. and I am going to go to bed now before I hurt myself!

I hope you feel better mopey!

I couldn't go to sleep but I will try to after this post.

Thanks for the support you guys. Windstopped is going to feel emasculated and even more hopeless though.

I am trying to tell it like it is. It is only my side.

These are more quotes from other emails in a short period of time this evening........



......



......



......



........





*end of quotes*


What do you think guys? I wished TST knew my story. I see him as a truly remorseful FWS as well and he's a guy.

I feel numb. I'll be going through the motions during school tommorow. I hope I learn something.

Oh, and he's probably going to be very angry at me for posting his e-mails without his permission.

I feel desparate enough to do it because I really, really need to what everyone thinks.

I expressed hurt over the fact that I felt dissed today by not at least saying good morning to me in an email after being so hurt yesterday. He didn't email me until 5:30 pm but I emailed him a few hours earlier. Then he asked me "if I wanted a running commentary of his day". I told him I just wanted him to be transparent. I especially feel that way since he's gone.

I expressed that I was uncomfortable that he's getting comfort from two wayward personalities, his step mom (living with right now) and sister (who he spent time with today). I expressed concern over the "go our separate ways". And you can't have an angry outburst in an email. You can't yell. Well, you can I guess but I didn't. He left me guessing on some stuff so I have told him how I thought he felt about me.

I probably did tell him once that I didn't think he had in him to recover because he didn't want to do the work.

I have told him many times that he is doing all the right things almost for the marriage but he's avoiding the recovery steps that I need. I have thanked him for the times he's done things that were helpful to me. I've also pointed out where he wasn't hitting the mark. He sees it as me complaining I believe. I think he may have said that in one of his emails.

It's a mess.

Hi mopey!

So... I read all about him and where his thoughts are.

But how's that mopey pie? How about this: have a good healthy breakfast, hunt for that new job you've been thinking about, go out and see a comedy with a girlfriend, drink some nice tea while you write in a journal, get some rest (try melatonin an hour before bedtime, it works and it's natural), and forget about him for TODAY. Just for today, focus on you.

{{{mopey}}}

Gosh, I'd like to see you stay in school. Is there any way that you can afford to do that? No matter what hubby decides?

Well, that sums it up perfectly, doesn't it? He feels very comfortable chasing other women because he is perfectly confident that no matter what he does, you will always be there.

So what reason does he have to change what he does?? With the comment above, he just TOLD you that he sees no reason to change his behaviour at all! And you are still hoping he'll change his behaviour why - ??

I haven't read your whole story, but have you ever gone to a deep dark Plan B? What do you think would happen if you did?
Mulan

Oh, mopey - you wonder? you WONDER?

Hon, he makes it clear every minute of every day that yes he DOES think that low of you. Look at his behaviour!

You in No Way deserve that kind of treatment, but he clearly got it in his head right at the start that there was no need for him to respect you, value you or protect you, because you were always going to be there anyway. So why should he bother?

And he hasn't.

This is called "being taken for granted". In the worst possible way.

Turning this around is like trying to turn around the Titanic *after* it's already hit the iceberg.

Again: Have you ever gone to a pitch-black Plan B for a few months? That's the one and only thing that *might* have some effect on a person like this.

*Might.*

But you can be sure that absolutely NOTHING else will.

As you have seen.

(((mopey)))

Mulan, Believer, Mojo, SR, BK and Lala,

Thank you so much for the responses. I can't take the time to reply right now but I'll get on later after school. I didn't sleep well last night and only have enough time to get ready for school.

Here's an e-mail I just got from Windstopped.....




It didn't make a dent in my frozen heart though.

And SR, I have been working on the pie.

Hi Mopey,

You are allowing yourself to be manipulated. Here is where I see you getting roped in:



Blameshifting, in hopes that you will take the bait and think something is wrong with your perception. It also serves to keep you busy trying to better yourself (being less negative, complaining less and working on stopping your selfish childish ways). It's a dog and pony show to keep you focused on what is wrong with you so that it will prevent you from seeing what is wrong with him.

La La said this:



I agree and here is proof that the above statement is true:





I agree. That is what he tells himself (and you) in order to justify taking away your right to make a choice for yourself that was based on the facts.



That is his choice. He isn't a child. If he feels emasculated, it the result of his actions that leads him there - NOT because you voiced something that you didn't like.

It's a manipulative tool and here is how it works:

He responds to your complaint by telling you/acting as though he feels like less of a man (to try to make you feel guilty) and then he either implies or states the he feels hopeless and like giving up. This is to play on your fears -the fear being that he will leave and that you weren't really good enough to fight for (which is not the truth).

It is the belief that you have some control or can somehow get him to change if only you can keep him from feeling emasculated and hopeless that is the bait here.


He is right.



Translation: It is your fault that I can't do it and it will be your fault if I give up...but I'm not saying it's your fault.



Translation: I am such a kind and noble guy for making this generous sacrifice and you are just unpleasable.

Mopey, you must see that that statement is a load of crap because someone who wants to have a good marriage would not give up and try to blame you because he did.



Sounds more like he's tired of HEARING that he is hurting you. If his goal were to stop hurting you, he would be focused on learning how to stop and you would see the fruit.



Translation: If you will no longer take my abuse quietly and allow me to continue being selfish, controlling and manipulative without complaining, there's nothing in it for me.



Don't express it. Not only does he not care, he was TRYING to hurt you as punishment.

Move your buttons.



This is said to keep you baited. In order for the manipulative, passive-aggressive games to continue, he needs an opponent. If he senses that you will no longer play, he will try to keep you in the game by playing on your hope that he will change.

For as long as you are willing to play the game, he has no incentive to change.

Like Mulan said in Froz's thread yesterday:


Stop playing the game. Move your buttons. Disengage from his "bait and switch" bullchit. You can do this!!

And the hurtful comment that he made to me yesterday? He said that "even if he told me the truth about sleeping with, and trying to sleep with other women, that I would have probably married him anyway".

Translation: I can do whatever I want because you have NO boundaries.

Since you cannot change him, you are left with changing yourself.

It might not be too late to make some and stick with them.

JMHO
committed

Mopey
I agree w/C&L. These are wise words. I have read through the last 4 pages of this thread and Windstopped's thread. What I see is that both of your are busy at pointing fingers at the other one. Remember when that happens there are 3 pointing right back at you.

I share this point with you because in order to break that vicious cycle you have to make that move for yourself.

U 2 are not at the point where POJA or even RH c/b implemented. You both have a ways to go because right now only the hurt is talking.

Lack of trust does this to people and kills marriages.

I realize you are fed up and tired. All the more reason to consider plan B for your sake.

Also consider the fact that he is posting is a good thing. Don't expect him t/b posting nice stuff. What he is attempting to disengage himself from isn't nice and it won't be easy. There is a history of bad habits which HE must over come.

On the other hand you have a history of disappointments of which your BS side is getting quite tired. Is that a close summation?


To rectify this, read C&L's post again and go back to read Frozen's last response to you. Then consider your personal and M boundaries. Let us know what they are. Expect Windstopped to learn of them as well. Expect him NOT to like some of them and wonder about others. Don't follow his mood, those are HIS moods. You s/b concentrating how to make Mopey a better person (in other words, finish your plan A).

Then when your mind and heart are in sync and you can make rational decisions, then consider plan B. Before you do, take a look at the book Love must be tough by Dobson. It will help.

Why go to plan B if the A is ended? Because the WS attitude may still be around and it is still affecting you and your family.

So realize you can't fix him. Only he can. He can't fix you, only you can. So work on what each other has within their control (i.e. fixing themselves). Then meet each other's true (not selfish needs). Meet them with the purpose of truly caring for the other without expecting anything back in return.

It will change your mindset. So that later even if you decide the M is done, you can move forward with less hurt and more control of you and your family. Or you may both be pleasantly surprised how much you truly want the M and find yourself on the same side fighting for your family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

I imagine you're probably pretty scared. I know I am. But if you (and I) can isolate the fears that are preventing you from setting limits on control, manipulation and hurtful behavior, you (and I) can focus your efforts on ways to overcome the fears - something you CAN change, instead of relying on hope as a plan and placing your safety, protection and well-being in the hands of something completely outside your control, thus making your safety and protection reliant upon his changing.

Hi everybody,

Thanks to all who responded. I just got home a little bit ago and read all of the replys. I'm going to let some of them sink in and mull over before I respond.

I haven't communicated with Windstopped today. I did not send him a reply to his e-mail this morning. I need to think.

I did however get my test from last week back today and I made a 92%. Yay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> BUT, she told us that she was just getting our feet wet and the next ones will be harder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> But she's nice though and a good professor. I talked her into giving the class credit for two of the problems today that were confusing...lol.....She's a softy and the class was appreciative and it made my grade go up to an A. YAY.

My stomash is in knots so I'm trying not to think too much about my sitch at the moment. I need to focus on something else right now or SR will be getting onto me about my pie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the feedback you guys.

I am hoping you can find a way to stay in school-- with or without Puffy.

Your husband is still a wayward and his responses are raising enormous red flags for me. I would also hear the 'oh, I keep hurting you, maybe I can't make you happy' ****** during our false recovery-- because he was STILL on the make and in contact with other women. He had a particular one in his sights and he had to work to convince me to get off the island (we were stationed overseas in Guam) and go back to school before he could make his move. Dumb me.... I fell for it gladly because a part of me had just been torn up so much I was looking for an excuse to get away from everything.

My FWH was/IS differant from your husband because he had no trouble manning up when he hit rock bottom and saw what he was doing. He was PROACTIVE in healing ME. In healing the MARRIAGE. None of this bullchit about himself and 'me me me me' whining like we're seeing from Puffy. He came out to everyone-- even my parents who hated his guts!-- and told everyone it was HIS fault, HIS choices, and HIS responsibility to do ANYTHING I asked, even if it went against his instincts. He had always hated the idea of counselors, but HE made the appointments and he went WITH NO WHINING, NO MUTTERING, NO COMPLAINING. There was no gazing at his bellybutton and going through the motions. There was NEVER any nastiness from him because he LOVED me and I was in a great amount of pain.

Now, he did hate that I was extremely paranoid in the beginning-- but he'd get over his annoyance super quick-- we're talking in moments-- and come to me and give me hugs and reassurance. He absolutely understood that HE had EARNED my distrust and he had to earn it back.

Its almost 4 years in recovery and he still does not complain when I have a bad moment (or lately, its been nightmares... this board is causing me some probelms...KLDs thread really got to me). He reassures me and we move on.

I am with the others.... you are being majorly manipulated. Please do not fall for it!!!

And that is the mind shift I've talked to you about. It is like he is being drug towards what is right instead of walking upright to it. When I was in this phase, my expression to my DH was "it's all about YOU, isn't it." All about his pain and his emotions and his triggers, and why can't we just focus on why I am hurting and blah blah blah. I would then do "all the right things" for a couple/few weeks and then he would have a bad day and I was like "OMG-here we go again." It was like I had to make an effort/sacrifice just to do the right thing, and then even after I did, I turned around and rolled my eyes about it.

This is what must change. I know that mindset from a mile away now. What mojodiva is saying is what it takes to move beyond that stage. It is what is necessary for you to start to heal and trust him again.

But, back to the beginning again-you cannot change him. You can only change yourself. If you are tired of waiting for his epiphany (if it ever does come), then by all means, be done with it. But you cannot do anything to him to make him change. So, that is why I have been preaching to you about taking care of yourself. Making the list of things to be thankful for, working on the pie, working on aspects of yourself that you feel need improvement. You aren't doing these things FOR HIM. You are doing them for YOU, mopey. Maybe if you come from that angle instead of "why should I change just to see if he will throw me some love?" Indeed-why should/would you! You shouldn't! Do it for your health, your well-being, your happiness, with no expectations of him...

Hey guys,

I'm still over here thinking and mulling and won't be ready to respond to the hard questions tonight. I agree with a lot of what has been said and I wished that I could see that mindshift. It's what I've been looking for as well. And it's kinda scary because I don't know if I'll ever see it. I need a hero at this point. I don't think I have the energy right now to be one myself except for to not make any rash decisions and work on me. It's too hard for me to work on the marriage right now. However, I did e-mail him back and let him know where I stand, which is "I don't know where I stand right now".


Windstopped and I were suppose to have a joint MC session this week to maybe help stop the madness and put some boundaries in place but I am simply not ready for that conversation. I may be asking for help with my boundaries because at this point, I'm not sure what all I can put in there. I do have an IC appt this Thursday so I can ask her as well.

He did send me one more piece that I asked for on my recovery list earlier in the evening and made himself available to me if I needed to e-mail him or even come over to hold me. I don't know when I'd be ready to go there again. I need to feel SAFE. But I did appreciate it still.

And as much as I appreciate every one of you, and the clowns, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I am asking that you guys please refrain from some of the nicknames for Windstopped. I know how easy that is to do, I am guilty as hayul, but it's bothering me. I would hope that he would step up and protect me from that as well. Yall understand, right? At least there's a possibity he could be a bonafide "F"WS one day. Chit happens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So, in the mean time, I have been working on pieces of my pie. My pie is starting out with only a few things for me to focus on right now. Maybe in a month, I'll add more. spirituality, marriage, family, career, health and fitness, and home.

Right now I am being with and scheduling more time with my kids. However, I really need to add my extended family to it more as well. I've sorta been hiding from them unless it's a planned family event. No one in my family knows of this mess and I just told my Mom right before Windstopped moved out.

I have an appt this week to work on my education piece. I'm mapping my career.

With Windstopped's latest storm that blew through here this weekend, I never did get the resume done. It's kinda hard to focus when your spouse says they "want to go their separate ways", again. I really need to get on top of that. I'll probably have to work retail or something to be flexible with my school hours. I'd really like to have some kind of job, like a parking lot attendent (lol) where I don't have to think too much....lol...and maybe even get some homework done.

And oh yeah, Believer and Mojo, I definitely want to finish school. I think (lol) after this semester, I'll be a senior. I'm getting a degree in Business Management and hopefully certified for Project Mgmt.


LaLa.....First thing on the list. Bravery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LaLa, you and Mojo described it to a T in my opinion and that mindset is what I need, and have needed, to heal.

I do know your story and I have read Windy's thread as well and will post to him when I have more time.

I think he is still full of [censored]..... He is doing the same things over and over and over again expecting different results - That's the definition of INSANITY, not RECOVERY!

Because of his excuses to still need to "learn more about himself",and then maybe be honest - you are suffering the same pain over and over and over again - Again the definition of Insanity.
Step out of the insanity completly until he does the work he was asked to do at the begining of all this mess. He is dragging his feet (maybe to chickensh!t to end the M so he is trying to force you to?? I don't know, but it's pityful).

Look - he was/is a member of AA and still after all these years has never worked any of their steps yet, so why would he work MB's or any others???? Bad track record!!
The payoff is that he gets to be the victim in his own mind... So very sad.

Both of your threads bring tears to my eyes!

Hiya Mopes,

I've been through about 3 cigs reading this.

I'm so, so sorry things have taken a turn for the worse for you.

I know how you're feeling. This is just the worst, isn't it?

Maybe it's a good thing you guys are separated now. I don't know. I just think there is only so much one person can do, and then you just simply give up.

I also never thought I could cry so much in a couple of years. Cry, cry, cry.

Thank goodness, it has subsided.

Mr. RLT continues with his counseling and his meetings. He apologized, sincerely for his behavior a couple of weeks ago. I think he just feels backed into a corner and the old patterns emerge.

Since then, I haven't had any meltdowns, but it doesn't mean that I won't. I'm sure I will. We'll see how he does with handling it.

He's doing a lot of of what PM's FWS is doing. He is being very attentive and kind. He calls me just to say hi, or texts me to see how I'm doing. He is also painting the bedroom for me. And, he's trying to get a handle of the finances, which he obliterated during his A.

So, I can't ask for much more. But at the same time, there is always this little voice inside my head saying, "He's tricking you, RLT." I worry, constantly, about being betrayed again, and not just with OW's, but with lies and deceptions.

I can't help it. My whole life has been pounced upon with trickery.

Anyway, Mopey, you can only do the best you can. No one would blame you if you couldn't do this anymore. You ARE A HERO for it.

Don't ever forget that.

RLT

TST,

I cannot tell you how grateful I am to have a christian FWS, who I feel "gets it" posting to me. I am very grateful to everyone. But it's also good to have a perspective from someone who has been in my H's shoes (not nearly as bad though) and who is also a man because men and women are different in some ways and I need all perspectives. And might I add, I admire you for your humbleness and see you as truly remorseful and making amends. Thank you for taking the time to know my story.

I saw that you had posted to my husband and my heart skipped a beat. It was an answer to prayer. I didn't just "wish" about it, I prayed for it as well. Thank you again.



This is what I'm trying to do now. We are separated. I only communicate with him via e-mail. I don't feel I can do less than that or he wouldn't be able to show me what I need to see from him. My problem at this point is being satisfied with finally getting those things from him after it has caused so much pain. Him giving me those things now after having to leave our home feels like appeasement to me and not something he's doing out of love or remorse. And it's not just those projects I am looking for, it's the mindset.



I have come to the same conclusion often. It's hard not to when his words don't match his actions. Not to mention he's cheated on me since day one and he has a "image" problem, imo. He leaves me guessing so I never know what his motivations are. And unfortunately, since he's lied so much and appeased so much, I don't know what to believe. It is insane. I have told him the very same thing you quoted above and of course *I* was then emasculating him and not making him feel safe. Sigh. I have a feeling that it will be I who will have to make the hard moves.

It's excruciating to feel really loved by him one minute and feel he could care a less the next. It is confusing.

I think you pretty much summed up to Windstopped what I've been saying since right after d-day. He "bruises easily" and I hope all of this honesty doesn't send him running for more cover.

Lol...I've been through waaaay more than that....I'm sorry it got you all worked up. Ya know, I keep thinking that God is upstairs "watching the show"....lol....An angry person with a serial adulterer.....action packed drama there for sure.



Thanks RLT. I've had knots is my stomach for almost two weeks now on and off. I do find peace though when I "letitgo" sometimes and find peace that I can control part of this outcome. Yes, it is the worst on most days though. I have been trying to work on other things that need my attention but I've sure been drawn to this board today.



Something had to change so yes, it is good in our situation. I haven't given up on the marriage yet but I have given up trying to control anything but me.



Amen to that Sista! I never thought it was possible to cry that much. Geez.




I am so glad he gave you that apology and that he's still seeking help. Any noticable improvements in the compassion and empathy area? And you don't even have to explain about the backed in the corner thing. Do you also see similarities in your situation to Frozen and Patriot's? Or maybe I'm off base.



That's awesome that he's doing all of those things. Did he do any of that previously?

It's hard to trust our perceptions now since we were duped for so long. I do hope I can see more clearly now. I think my radar is finely tuned though.

You're a hero to me too RLT. Thanks and it was really good to hear your update.

Hey everybody,

I feel really bad for not answering all you wonderful people who have been concerned and replied to me yet. I've had a rough week and an even rougher weekend. I wanted to take some time to think about the suggestions because I am taking them all very seriously.

Windstopped has been a lot more caring this weekend and I am grateful for that. He sent me a another piece that was on my recovery list and it was healing for me. I do wish I could have had it awhile back, but better late than never I guess.

I also wanted to thank all the people who have been posting to Windstopped. I am grateful. And all the BSs that have been posting on the healing thread he started have been wonderful. I can definitely relate to everything that's been said so far.

I have another, even bigger, test coming up in a few days and I haven't started yet so I'll be concentrating on that, hopefully, over the next few days along with everyday stuff.

And for my thread, I'd like to share for posterity's sake what my FWH thinks of his "other women" now. These are letters he wrote to them, not mailed, to show me what he would say if he had a chance to talk to them now. It was important for me to know how he feels about them now. Here they are.....

***********

Internet PA #2 online chick,


What I did with you was one of the most horrific assaults possible on a marriage. I was a pig to my wife and family and actually thought it wasn’t a big deal…at the time. It was a big deal. The level of nastiness required to consider it remotely “ok” disgusts me when I think about it now.


Think about it for a minute. A married man engaging in sexual fantasy over the internet. I don’t know why I ever thought it was something I wanted to do. I have a lovely wife, who loves me, wanting to make my life joyful. I robbed her of the opportunity to fill my needs by allowing someone else to.


Regarding the e-mails we exchanged. I realize they were not sexual, nor all that personal, but it was a communication that kept a door open for other possibilities. Work related problems, and personal matters are things I should have been sharing with my wife exclusively. Once again, I potentially robbed her of the chance to be in my life by not needing to share that stuff with her.


One of the things I used to tell myself was that you were, in general, a decent person. I realize now that decent people have more respect for themselves and others. That respect would not allow someone to engage in cyber sex with a known married man. The value of respect would generate a huge red flag. That also goes for me. I had no self-respect, no respect for my wife and family, and no respect for you. You were simply an object used to gratify my desire for escape from real life. Nothing more.


I’m very happy to have removed you from my thoughts when I did.


Windstopped

*************


Internet EA/PA #1 online "in luv" chick,


I’m very embarrassed and disgusted with myself, that I got involved with someone like you.


I can now understand why you chose to live your life behind a computer screen. Reality would be too harsh for someone so terribly embarrassed about their life.


I wonder if your kids know you deny them in order to get yourself off. I hope they haven’t been affected by their mother in any emotional way. God forbid one grows up like you.


I believe you are one of the nastiest people I’ve run across in my life time.


Get help…..really.

Windstopped

*************


Gross neighbor chick he kissed while drunk shortly after we were married,


To this day I’m still bothered by the fact that I kissed you. It actually helps me stay sober.


I know for a fact I wouldn’t have considered it without being incredibly drunk. It’s a sad fact of my life that I allowed myself to do that. It’s also sad I had so little respect for myself, my marriage, and family. They didn’t deserve any of it.


If you happen to see me in public at some point, please act like you don’t see me. I’ll do the same.

Windstopped


*******************

Supposed "friend" who he boinked while we were dating chick,

The fact that I had sex with you is disgusting for me to remember. Not only because I had a girlfriend, but because I think you’re a disgusting person. Please believe, it would not have happened had I been sober. It’s something that helps me stay sober now.


By doing it, I betrayed my girlfriend. I believe she may have thought of you as a friend too. Considering this, we both know that isn’t true. It’s not something a friend or boy-friend would do.


I’m ashamed of what I’ve done, I hope you are too.

Windstopped

******************

Ex GF who he boinked right before we were married slutty chick,

I made a terrible choice in meeting with you while in another committed relationship. That choice started a chain of bad choices that ended with us having sex. It’s the worst thing I could have done to my girl friend/fiancé at the time and now. I made it worse by lying and covering it up. That removed my soon to be wife’s choice of seeing me for who I was and being able to decide whether she still wanted to marry me.


I also made choices to visit [censored]’s Wings knowing you might have been there. While I wasn’t attempting to “be” with you again, it was damaging to my marriage simply having that contact. There will always be a question of future intent from my wife’s perspective. Rightly so too, based on my past choices, who’s to say I wouldn’t make the same bad choices again.


While I am responsible for the things I’ve done, I also believe you were aware I was in a committed relationship. You made choices of your own that show ugly character traits. I’m sure you would consider another woman sleeping with your man a tramp at the very least. Considering the shoe is on your foot that makes you a tramp.


I hope that I don’t run into you again. If I do, I will pretend I don’t know you. I expect you to have enough respect for my family, and yourself, to do the same.


Winstopped

**************

*end of letters*


That's it for now folks. Thank you so much for the support. Back to the books for me.

Mopey - if you now have ALL the information about the PAST, I really suggest you let the past stay in the past.

Dwelling on all these OW is NOT productive for either of you.

What IS productive is focussing on the behavioural change so that you both stop LB'ing each other and start meeting each other;s EN's.

The WHOLE MB program is about the FUTURE, not the past.

So unless there is still stuff Windstopped is hiding from you, why not put down that shovel and start working on what you will both beccome and what your marriage will be.

That will make both of you far happier.

BK, just so you know, considering the extent of the lies and the lengths of them, and the number of betrayals involved, it'll take me awhile to feel safe that I know everything. *edited to add* It was just a few days ago that I found about a girl he flirted with at his present job. I've asked him about it and I'll just have to take his word for it, won't I. He says she is nothing to worry about.

And like most of the BSs here, if I have a trigger down the road, even years from now, I will want and NEED Windstopped to talk to me about that trigger and comfort me.

If there was any "dwelling" going on, it's because I was lied to for so long.

I am looking forward to putting this mess in the past and I want it to stay there.

Like I've said somewhere earlier, I will not go back into this blind again. I won't feel safe until he proves to me that I am at least reasonably safe.

And I have been communicating with Windstopped this weekend and we're trying to watch our LBs. In fact, since he's shown a great amount of care for me this weekend and has been answering some of my hard questions, I don't feel like LBing.

Thanks for stopping in.

Hey mopers...how's it going? Been a few days since you posted and I know you had a pretty rough MC session the other day. Windstopped is getting some great help on his thread, too.

So, what's the good word, sista?

Hi Lala,

I started to drop you a quick line the first night you were asking about me and then Windstopped got on IM with me and it went downhill after that.

I am a little frustrated to say the least about my sitch.

I've been in my frozen mode again of not knowing where to start and that's why I haven't updated.

I have an IC appt Thursday and will hopefully update after that.

I also have another test tommorow and have needed to concentrate on that but haven't been able to.

Not answering you created huge conflicts in me so I just decided to anyway because I feel so bad for not doing it already. Thank you for caring. It means a lot to me.

I also read that it was W2S's d-day anniversary the other day and I felt pretty confident that you probably handled that well, I hope. I know it couldn't have been easy but I see your love for him just being on these boards and learning where he's coming from. I have all the faith in the world that you guys are going to make it out of this with a great marriage.

Not posting has really gotten on my nerves so I'm going to break down and get a few out of the way before I start studying.

Hugs to ya.

Ah, mopers...don't worry about not responding sooner! I just wanted you to know I'm thinking about you whenever you are ready. Please don't let it stress you...you have enough of that already! I'll be here for ya no matter when you feel ready!

We did handle D-day very well. He got some much needed help from BK...he is such a gem and a wonderful person. He has been such a God-sent to us!! W2S and him really connect in this, and he has been a great support to me also. We have a great support system in ALL of you and are so grateful! W2S feels we re-claimed that day together (as it was also the 13 year anniversary of the first night we spent together...nice night for me to pick as D-day, huh! UGH!!!)

My prayers are with you, mopey. You just do what you need to do with school and we'll be here for ya when you are ready!

((((((((MOPERS))))))))

Lala, you're the best.

I KNEW you'd handle that anniversary well!

Thanks for understanding.

Mopey,

I just wanted to let you know that I exposed the A to OMW. I had given you my word that I would do it and now it is done. What good is a man if he cannot be true to his word. Sorry it took so long. You won't believe what happened. I owed you so much for what you did that first night LaLa came here I felt the least I could do is keep the promise I made to you. Hope you're doing OK. Thanks Mopey!

Want2Stay

p.s. LaLa started a thread with what happened. You won't believe it!

W2S, THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart.

You're a good man.

{{{{W2S & LaLa}}}}}

Hello everyone,

I’m in a really bad place right now and I could sure use some advice.

As some of you know my H and I have been separated for about 6 weeks now. The reason for the separation was because of anger. After 4 d-days and tons of lies for over a year, and my H’s lack of efforts with recovery, it was more than I could take.

I think in most cases when a BS first hears of what their spouse did to decimate the marriage, it can make someone pretty angry. I needed to release that anger by telling my H what his actions did to me. It would have been great if he had just listened to my pain and comforted me afterwards but all he ever did was get defensive. This scenario played out with every d-day and every lie. So, I was never able to release my anger. I was met with defensiveness and that made it worse.

So, between me being angry at what he did, and being angry over him dragging his feet in recovery, it was too much for me and apparently him so it was suggested we separate. We did.

The first two weeks were especially difficult for me because now I had to heal alone, go through the triggers alone. I was filled with anger over that and couldn’t see my H much because I didn’t trust how angry I was with him and didn’t want to “lovebust” to have it thrown back in my face. No anger, however expressed, was taken well by my H. My counselor said he throws my anger back in my face because he doesn’t want to hear it.

So, a few more weeks go by and I can feel my rage dissapate somewhat because I no longer felt so vulnerable to my H. I didn’t have to stuff anger or hurt to just be around him. However, I still felt anger that he wasn’t here to help me heal. It feels like he’s running from the mess he created.

I promise you people, had he let me vent right when I found out without defensiveness and just loved me through the hurt, I would have gotten past the anger awhile ago. And it’s hard when you have 4 different d-days with tons of lies in between. My last major d-day was less than 6 months ago and the last lies were about 3 or 4 months ago. I have yet to vent without defensiveness.

I have been talking to my counselor a lot about the anger. She agrees that it is justified anger. And I have more anger than just from the affairs. I was tricked into marrying this man who was already cheating on me. He neglected me emotionally and physically throughout our whole marriage and it wasn’t until I learned of his women, porn, and excessive flirting that I understood why he was never there for me. I was miserable our whole marriage and he blamed it on me our whole marriage. So, I had anger from that too.

Last week my counselor told me to set a timer and vent my anger out. My H is to sit and listen without saying a word. Surprising my H agreed to this. Also, I had revised my list of what I needed to recover for myself and what I needed my H to do to help me recover. My H said last week that he was taking the list seriously and asked me some questions about it. He even did a few things on the list.

So, with a way to vent my anger in place and my H taking my list seriously, I began to feel there may be hope for us. I started to feel better. I was able to have a few dates with my H and they went well. He even gave me two opportunites to vent if I needed it, and I found myself full of hurt and not rage and didn’t take him up on it. I was full of hurt but nothing came out at that point. I think I didn’t release the hurt because I knew he would be leaving again soon and I didn’t want to deal with the hurt by myself after he left. I have enough hurt to deal with. I just didn’t want to go there until I thought I had more time.

Here is my BIG pain point right now……

The other day, my H told me that if he didn’t see progress in our relationship by September, that he was going to “re-evaluate” our relationship. He told me that if we (meaning him) was still unhappy by then, that he would most likely end the marriage. Well, that hurt me. Hurt me to the core. He stalled our recovery with lies and more d-days, drug his feet in recovery to the point of angering me so bad that he had to leave. And now he has put a DATE on our recovery. He says he realizes that our marriage won’t be completely healed by then but that he expects progress.

I don’t know about the rest of you but this hurts me to the core and angers me more. I understand him wanting to see progress, but then again, I DID TOO for the past 1 ½ years. Heck, he didn’t even start counseling until 8 months after the first d-day. He says that I am a perpetually angry person and it doesn’t matter that he was the cause of a lot of that anger. I do agree it was my fault for staying in the relationship in the first place. So I take credit for that.

If you guys were in my shoes, how would this make you feel? I am so hurt by it that I don’t know if I even want to be with him anymore. My counselor doesn’t think I’m over reacting. It feels like an insult to me.

I really, really need help with this one. I don’t respect or like my H very much right now. He has hurt me over and over again and I think he runs from the fallout of what he did. My recovery stage wasn’t normal. I left out a lot of hurtful things he has said as well and that just adds to pile of things I have to deal with.

He also keeps asking me what am I doing to help the situation. I am seeing a counselor weekly and have been since shortly after the initial d-day, which the exception of 4 months where I didn’t from burnout. I am also in school and passing my classes, with B’s so far. I’ve stuffed hurt to anger to meet his needs as best as I could for our situation. I have seen a Dr. to help with the anxiety I feel who has a lot he wants to work with me on. I have confided in my sister and some friends, and MB to help me get through this. I have given him time to see if things could improve. I’ve been reading some books on my own to help in understanding. I have pretty much controlled LBs, especially since he’s been gone. I am actively planning my only daughter’s wedding. I take care of myself by eating decent food. I started back to the gym again. I’m not overweight, I just need to tone up, for him because “attractive spouse” is one of his top ENs.

All I know is that this “September date” thing has really thrown me for a loop. It feels like a slap in the face.
Am I crazy for being insulted by a progress date from him, considering why things got so bad in the first place? Should I even give him the time of day?

No, I don't think you're crazy, I would be insulted as well.

What, exactly, does he mean by "progress"? We all view progress differently. This seems like a really vague term to me.

You know, Mopey, you have choices too...this is not all about him. Have you read "Boundaries in Marriage"? If not, RUN, don't walk, to get it now. You really need it.

Also, can you guys counsel with SH? Especially in your sitch, I think SH is necessary.

(((Mopey)))...hang in there, realize that YOU have choices too. And call SH.

Mopey, do you know about gaslighting and passive/aggressive behaviour?

If you haven't already, please read the links in my sig line

And these two:

http://members.aol.com/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/109220/what_is_gaslighting_.html

definition of gaslighting / definition of gaslight
by J. E. Brown
gaslighting
A common form of brainwashing in which an abuser tries to falsely convince the victim that the victim is defective, for any purpose whatsoever, such as making the victim more pliable and easily controlled, or making the victim more emotional and therefore more needy and dependent. {You're reading "Definition of Gaslighting" by J. E. Brown.}

Often done by friends and family members, who claim (and may even believe) that they are trying to be helpful. The gaslighting abuser sees himself or herself as a nur-turing parental figure in relation to the victim, and uses gaslighting as a means for keeping the victim in that relationship, perhaps as punishment for the victim's at-tempt to break out of the dependent role.

Example 1: If an abusive person says hurtful things and makes you cry, and then, in-stead of apologizing and taking responsibility, starts recommending treatments for what he or she calls "your depression" or "your mood swings," you are in the pres-ence of a gaslighter.
Quick Survey: Suppose your partner says "I Need More Space." What does it mean?
Example 2: If someone insults you or criticizes you, and then pretends it was a joke and asks "Don't you have a sense of humor?", that's gaslighting.

Perception blaming is a common form of gaslighting, and a common technique for evading the consequences of one's actions. Example: "I'm sorry you perceived my words that way; it wasn't my intention." Translation: "You are perceptually defec-tive. Everyone else in the world can read my mind; if you can't, there must be some-thing wrong with you. Or so I'd like you to believe." Unspoken Message: "My inten-tion should change your actions (even though it didn't change mine)." This presup-poses the reasoning "Most people are judged for their actions; but *I* want to be judged for my unseen intentions." For more about this double standard, see Defini-tion of Conceit. {Read this comp1ete article at http://users.aol.com/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html .}

Etymology: Term is named after the film Gaslight (1944), in which the villain used the technique.

I was tricked into marrying this man who was already cheating on me. He neglected me emotionally and physically throughout our whole marriage and it wasn’t until I learned of his women, porn, and excessive flirting that I understood why he was never there for me. I was miserable our whole marriage and he blamed it on me our whole marriage.

So, why do you want to remain married to him?

Your anger has turned into violence at times...hasn't it?

Your post is full of blame...you blame him for your anger.

He hasn't been husband material from the start.

What makes you think that you can MAKE him husband material?

committed

Mopey-

We are sort of going through something like this, on a smaller scale. Insulted? Id be alot more than insulted! I would feel like my H was telling me he wasnt committed enough, invested enough or loved me enough to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to help me heal. Idf feel like he made this mess, and now when the hard work of him looking inward and facing what he is done has come up, he wants to turn and run. Id feel like he never heard MY pain, but always turned it into HIM. It sounds very much like classic PA behavior to me.

I dunno, Mopey. What about this is working for you? Are you ok, girl?

Hi Mopey...

You know this is what he is doing (gaslighting)- what he has always done, and what he continues to do. Gaslighting is his weapon. As is sarcasm and selfish, childish behavior.

When I read the exchange between you and Windstopped on (I think it was) MEDC's thread a week or so ago, I was very, very angry. I almost bumped your thread that night, but I was knee deep in my own mud and just didn't even know what to say to you without being destructive to your M.

The email listing every street and turn and directions to his (I think) sister's house, etc, and his ensuing antics on that thread were so sickening to me. This is not extraordinary care and love. This is someone who is still one step from hurling himself on the ground and thrashing about like a 5-year-old for "what you are putting him through!" Barf...I just don't even know how you get through to someone who has lived this way for 40 years of his life and still refuses to take resposibility for his actions. And lip service doesn't count!

I think it is going to come down to you having to decide which way you should go. The reason you fought so hard against really making the huge effort to "get over" this, is because of this very manipulative crap he is pulling now. You get to do all the hard work, and he gets to mule and whine and throw you a bone every now and again (nice dates) to keep you hanging on, and then turns around and sets time lines on your recovery.

So, knowing that you can only change yourself...keep working on letting go of the anger. That way, even if things don't work out, your progress isn't "in vain." You certainly don't want to carry this kind of baggage into a new relationship. So, look at it that way, rather than "doing the work to save your M." Start to separate yourself from his antics and insulate yourself in a good, healthy way. Work on your boundaries and take care of YOU! It will be worth it in the long run, whether you stay together or not.


((((((((MOPEY)))))))))

Oh thank you MF. I DO feel insulted and hurt to the core over this.



I did tell him last night one of the reasons it upset me so bad is because the way recovery has gone so far, with the exception of the last few weeks. I thought we were barely getting off the ground last week, and now this feels like a HUGE set back for me. So since we've made little progress so far, it did scare me what he considers "progress" and how much. At first he was a real jerk about it. He said I should work out what the progress meant on my own, by doing my own personal work. I lost what he said after that because my mind was trying to comprehend what he just said.

Then later he said that he would think about it and try to come up with some measurable ways to see progress. Which is all fine and dandy but to put a "date" on it and say that if he's not happy by then, he'll bail, or not? And he said if "he was still miserable" by Sept. that he would bail". He said he's "tired of living this way". OMG, I could scream. After what he's put me through he's tired? I feel like I have been making progress so it makes me feel like there's nothing more I can do. And with this date thing now, I'm so upset I don't even WANT to see him, and that's not gonna help our progress.



Yes, I have the book. Haven't gotten far in it though. I know I have choices and they hurt to make them but I'm getting stronger. I wonder what kind of boundaries I should take in this case? It certainly doesn't meet my recovery requirements which is "however long it takes".



I have often thought that I wouldn't mind a one on one conversation with Steve Harley, Jr. I'll give it some thought and see if H is agreeable.

Thanks again MF. I really needed someone to tell me I wasn't crazy for thinking this way. I know I shouldn't doubt myself but after 15 years with a person who has always been good at making me doubt myself, I still have a long ways to go.

Yes Mulan. I know too well what gaslighting is. Am I so stupid that I'm not seeing it now?

My H thinks the Sept date thing is a "good thing" for both of us. He knows I don't agree and tells me I can make a choice to leave him if I don't like it. I know I have that choice and I might make it. But then he comes back and says that "I'm not willing to give it a few more months".

So I do feel like he's manipulating me into "getting over it" in some kind of "measureable" way for him.

God, I'm so confused. He thinks it's a "good thing". Like it'll spur us on to get better. All I know is that it hurts me. Like what he already knows and feels about me isn't good enough even though he "tells" me I am.

You have begun to stop accepting the unacceptable, the unacceptable being the same old patterns of your relationship/marriage. THAT is a boundary you've set in place. If WindStopped isn't willing or able to put in his 100% to the restoration of your marriage (or not even the restoration of but the building of a newer and better marriage) then that's on him.

For him to put a time limit on you is showing that he's not in this for keeps (better or worse and all that). IF he had been CONSISTENTLY doing EVERYTHING possible up to this point then it would be understandable. But he hasn't.

You are at a crossroads right now. Do you continue on beating your head against a brick wall trying to MAKE him feel your pain and participate in your recovery or do you say no more? Cause you can't MAKE him do anything, yanno?

I think speaking with the Harleys is an excellent idea. At least give your marriage one more shot at real recovery. The first item on the agenda should be his heartless deadline for recovery. JMHO

(((Mopey)))

Committed.....



Hope of what I *think* it could be like with a MB marriage and recovery. He's always done just enough to keep me hoping.



Yes, I'm ashamed to say. I tried to beat the crap out of him after d-day #4 when he got defensive when listening to my pain. I yelled and was angry, and he yelled and got angry back. I pushed a chair his way, he pushed it back harder. After I started to hit him, my 18 year old son heard us from inside the house and came out. My H let him pull me off of him and my son pinned me to the ground. It was a horrible, horrible scene. I am so ashamed of that.



I did. I do see where I need to take credit for not getting out of the situation that creates this anger in me. He made me feel like it was my problem for being angry, that I shouldn't react the way I do. I think my anger was justified but you're right, I have been keeping myself in it hoping things would get better. It's my fault I have stayed in a situation that constantly brings about hurt and anger. I have been working on that more and more in the last month, trying to get past my fears.



He wasn't. But I do think he's made a lot of progress as far as boundaries go. It's just caring for my feelings during this recovery that has been so difficult for me. I do of course not trust him yet, but I do think he has possibly grown in this area quite a bit. Only time will tell.



I can't. I know that. I can only accept or not accept who he is and what he does. However, I thought it was ok to share my feelings with him about how to be a good husband for me.

Thanks Committed. Those were hard questions.

JK.....



This is EXACTLY how I feel and more. I am more than just insulted.



The only "inward" work he is doing is on himself. He's not trying to look into how all of this affects me. I feel he thinks all of that is completely my own personal work to deal with. He told me "he didn't care" he was not going to drop the date. He told me "he would rather hurt me with the truth than to make me feel better with lies". Well, I would have liked him to have done that before he married me as well, and I still do. But what that says to me is that he doesn't love me enough, or whatever enough, that's he's miserable with me, and doesn't want to commit to me without seeing progress, by HIS standards, by a certain date.



Definitely not. He has pushed my buttons again. My only choice is to take it or get out. And you know I don't want to take it......

Thanks Jk. Really, I needed you guys soooo bad today.

LaLa.....

I agree with every single word.




This is where my thinking is right now. I'm seriously thinking about going into plan B. What do you all think about that?

I wanted to go straight to plan FU, but thought B might be better.

Then I started thinking maybe I was "wrong" to feel the date thing was a bad idea.

Then I slept on it and woke up insulted again.

Then I came here. Him setting a date doesn't feel right to me at all.

If he doesn't care about me at this point, he probably never will.

I say, call one of the Harleys (whether he wants you to or NOT!) and see what they say. Then go to Plan B if you want to, but realize it may be the beginning of the end of your M. I'm not saying that is bad or good, just saying...be aware!

I don't know your whole situation, so I could be completely off base and if so just ignore what I say.

Maybe your H feels like you will never be happy with him, so why should he keep fighting a loosing battle.

Have you made any progress in your recovery? If not, do you want to keep punishing him by not making progress.

Recovery is hard for the wayward spouse also. That idea used to make no sense to me. But then I realized that just like it took both of us to get our marriage to this point, it would take both of us to heal it.

You should feel insulted! He11, who in their right mind wouldn't?

Mopey,
Your husband is still a renter and not a buyer!
Renters complain if the house they are renting isn't fixed by the owner within a certain time frame that they will move out and find another place.
It's a classic renter's statement! Sorry!
YOU cannot make him a buyer, only he can choose to do that, and his actions over the longrun of your M show this continued pattern of no longterm solutions on his part. I suspect that he's been a renter your entire M.

On a different note - congratulations on maintaining a B average. THATS IMPRESSIVE!

Hi Princess Meggy,

Thank you too for sharing your thoughts....



I agree totally, with everything.



I agree. Since I'm not working, I feel the need to get Windstopped's approval since it's so expensive. I do want to call them though.

VICTORIA - If you don't now the sitch well, keep reading until you do *edit*

mopey,

I have no idea if you know my situation, but I've been living with a WH that is very much like yours. We are separating this week. I don't know, from your sig line, but do you have children?

Whether or not you have children, IMO, it's time to go dark. This type of TIMELINE bullpoo is NOT the mark of a spouse who truly wants recovery. Take it from me, unless you are willing to live in a marriage that is not balanced, or even fulfilling for both of you, Plan B could be best for you. THis may spell the end of the M, it may not. If it does, then either you or your spouse is not fully committed.

Victoria mentioned this...




I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if you ARE punishing your WH. I would guess that you aren't KNOWINGLY doing this. If you are, it's a good point to think on, and work out. You DO have choices. You can read and counsel, and come here and practice your very best MB principles and learn to live with your WH, as he is today, (as this is WHO he is now), without expectation from him, or you can go dark, work on yourself and CHOOSE wisely what to do on YOUR time table.

I tried for 10 months (well, 2 years and 10 months), and it takes both spouses, ALL IN, to really make it work, IMO.

LaLa,



I just might do that.



I am very aware of this. That is what plan B is all about. It's about moving on with your life, but giving the spouse a way back if they choose. I thought that would be better than going straight to plan D.

This is not manipulation on my part. He or others may take it that way. LaLa, you know a lot of my story, the hurt has just gone on for so long. It gets better, and then it get bad, and back and forth and back and forth. This is not healthy for me. I think I need to step back and take care of me before this thing angers me into a grave.

Windstopped does do some things to help and I want to give him some credit. But, there's things he didn't/ doesn't do, and then he pulls crap like the e-mail you were referring to and the date thing and I think "WTF"? How can he be so great one minute and a jerk the next? Personally, I think it's because he is angry that I'm angry. And then he does PA stuff. Period. And I wouldn't still be angry if he didn't keep pulling this crap just like you said. I have to move my buttons but I don't know how to not let him get to me. It does hurt me so bad. So the only way I know to do that is to live without him until I get my bearrings again and am stronger in who I am and what is acceptable to me and enforcing those boundaries.

I think the biggest problem is that he sees himself as a good guy, and that he was always a good guy, that made poor choices or "mistakes". And that's a problem for me because I don't see him as a "good guy" right now. He was pretty much a player from the time I met him, and the way he lied and neglected me so bad, I don't see him as a good guy back then and he claims he was. So it makes me think he doesn't get it. I think he was a lying, cheating ******. If I could have gotten that out just once, without defensiveness and complete remorse with amends on his part, I'd be more capable of letting the anger go and forgive him. Is that so wrong? And the reason I felt I had to say those kinds of things to him is because he was so unfeeling about my pain and the damage of what he did caused me. He didn't think I should be so angry and hurt. He had tons of fog layers that have taken forever to peel SOME of them away.

I agree that he is working to BECOME a better man, but I don't see him that way just yet. It's only been six months for me to process just how much he's done to hurt me over the years. I use to think I was a completely jealous basket case. Now I see where his women, flirting and porn fit in while he neglected and lied to me. It takes a while to process this stuff. And he's not exactly making recovery easy to boot with some of this stuff. Had he'd been non-defensive, remorseful and making amends in the WAY THAT I NEEDED IT with the clear cut needs I gave him, I would be much better off.

TST,

He admits to being a renter. He says he feels he has every right to feel the same way I do about being commited to the marriage. I feel that he has to prove to me over time that I can trust him before I'm willing to commit for the rest of my life again, because he was a serial cheater and I'm not long into recovery. I had committed to the recovery though, but a few weeks ago when he told me that he didn't really know if he wanted our marriage or not, I just didn't feel like investing anymore. If recovery went well, and I could learn to trust him again, I would make a new promise to him and be committed for life, unless he's unfaithful again. He feels like I should prove to him also that I'm capable of not being perpetually angry and that I can forgive and forget and let the past go. He thinks I have something to prove to him too before he commits for life to me as well.

He wants to move on and be happy and so do I, but I need to recover at the same time. I just never got to recover much because of the way it went down with the lies, lying about his feelings or with holding them, etc., and his continued defensiveness at anything at all I said. I couldn't even ask him questions about the affair after the polygraph because it was all so painful and when I finally did, I was rewarded with more lies. So, I have a hard time discussing any of it. I don't know if I'll get lies or defensiveness, so I don't bring it up much. But it's this date and anger thing that is killing me.


It's kinda hard to process 15 years of betrayals in 6 months. Especially when I can hardly believe a word that comes out of his mouth because of all the lies. And just because I haven't caught him in a lie in 4 months, doesn't mean anything. His actions show me what I need to know. He'll tell me one minute that he values our marriage, and the next, he gives a date to see progress by.

And he also has admitted he was a renter our whole marriage. He use to tell me he was a buyer for awhile during recovery, but now he says he's a renter.

It all boils down to the anger. He's done things to anger me. He says I'm a perpetually angry person who can't forgive and forget.

I know I can't change him. I'm trying to figure out what I can change to stop the hurt. I'm trying to figure out if the problem is mine and what to do with it, or his and what to do with it.

Thanks for the compliment on the grades, but it's not that impressive really. I'm only in school part time right now and I'm not working. I really should be making A's right now. But thanks anyway.

Hi Victoria and SL,

I'm sorry but I'll have to come back later. I need to get some stuff done before I'm accused of spending "so much time on MB". Plus I really do have some things to do and I don't think I can answer you guys quickly. Your responses were very important to me. Thank you.

TST....I didn't say that right. I know I can't change him. I'm trying to see what I can change in me to stop some of this hurt.

Victoria


Yep. You are right. What you dont seem to understand is that Mopey has put in HUGE effort into recovering her M, while her H puts in effort in fits and stops WHEN it suits him, Does just enough to keep her hanging on and throws her a few crumbs every once in a while so she stays in there, hoping. How in the WORLD is that both spouses putting forth effort?

Mopey, I see more of a freeloader in your H. I completely understand what you are struggling with.

If you want to chat, email me and I'll call ya.

JK

Mopey,

Given all the stress and chaos going on in your life... B avearages ARE IMPRESSIVE.

He's a renter by admission, and a wayward by admission and you are well within your rights to demand a much higher ADMISSION price for him to enter back into your life. For him to set a time frame for anything at this point is a clue into his thinking and tells me he is choosing to stay in the wayward mindset and in the renters mindset also.....
Not a safe place for you to stay! IMO

You have been betrayed and lied to over and over again, and just as your counselor said you have a right to be angry. WS has shut you down over and over again not allowing you to work thru the anger portion of your hurt and until you do you will relive the hurt over and over again. This date setting is another way to shut you down AGAIN!
Great blameshifting still,
Great renters philosophy still,
Great GL still,
Great at everything except going to any length to accept personal responsibility for all the pain he has caused to you!
You are not punishing him, quite to the contrary, he is still punishing(abusing) you. Don't accept this! and don't accept anyone accusing you of this.

Hi Mopey,



I don't buy the notion that you are punishing your H by not making progress. And I hope that you don't buy it either.

The lack of progress is due directly to the absence of conditions necessary in order for you to feel safe.



Taking care of yourself is an excellent idea.



I'd like to caution you about blaming statements.

1.) It is a mindset that helps keep someone stuck by believing that the solution is something that lies outside themselves.

2.) It likely encourages him to feel even more victimized because to accept responsibility for his actions means to accept that he is a bad person. The more he hears it, the more likely he is to continue gaslighting you and telling you that something must just be wrong with you.

You don't need his validation. You don't need for him to tell you that it is okay for you to set limits on destructive behavior. You don't even need for him to understand why. And the more you try to explain, the more likely he is to argue with you and rebel against the idea that he is responsible for his actions.



I know it does.

The way to not let him get to you is to stop seeking his agreement and deciding for yourself if what he says about you is true and keeping that information to yourself.

When he says something that indicates to you that he is not taking responsibility, make a mental note of it and do not correct, argue or try to "teach" him a healthier way of thinking.

If he does something to punish you, refrain from telling him how much it hurt you and trying to get him to empathize. You can simply set a boundary to protect yourself. He's a grown man. Let him figure it out. Trying to figure it out for him enables him to avoid taking responsibility and seeking solutions.



And maybe that's true. But it's still a disrespectful judgment. And again...that belief (about himself) is what he appears to be fighting against and to accept responsibility for it likely feels like agreeing with you that he is a horrible person.

And honestly, this doesn't have anything to do with what he is or isn't. This is about how you like/don't like being treated. That is the only information that he needs. If you are able to express your preferences to him without blame, it might be easier for him to listen. If you do your part and he gets defensive, set your boundary by telling him that you will only discuss the issue when you feel your perspective is being heard. If he tells you that it is only that you <insert any blame here>, tell him again that you will be willing to discuss the issue when he is willing to stop arguing with your perspective.



It isn't wrong at all.

And you stated a boundary of sorts here. YOU decide what actions would portray remorse and what the price of admission to your heart is.

If he wants to argue with you about how much it costs, you don't have to try to get him to agree the price is fair or reasonable or how he should pay it.

There doesn't even need to be a discussion about it. He has the right to choose whether or not he wants to pay, just as you have the right to decide the cost.



Maybe so, but do you see how that leaves you dependent upon him for your safety and happiness?



Button-pushing.

It is an attempt to get you to lower the price, in hopes that he can play upon your fear that you aren't worth the cost.

You are.



Defensiveness is an indication that he doesn't want to hear. What's the point of telling someone something if they aren't receptive to listening?

But you don't have to stop discussing it out of fear. You can CHOOSE not to discuss it (which is you taking back your power).

If he mentions the date thing, just accept that as his choice and decline.



Good for you, Mopey. Take care.

Mopey - your WH is a classic Passive/Aggressive bully who is absolutely determined to keep you angry. As long as you are angry, HE is the victim, and P/As are 100% invested in making sure THEY remain the victims and not you.

I wish you would read the P/A stuff in my sig lines - I mean, REALLY read it and understand it. There's a lot you could be doing to cut off the P/A behaviour at the knees, but you simply continue to take his bait and remain right where he wants you - furiously angry and allowing HIM to remain the victim.

Which is exactly what he wants.

As we were discussing on the Boundaries thread, good boundraies will remove much of the anger because then he will no longer be able to trample and violate you. This is where your rage is coming from.

But as long as you continue the P/A dance, he will keep winning and winning and winning and actually be quite content while YOU keep losing more and more of your sanity.

And remember - sometimes, Plan B stands for "Plan Boundary".
Mulan

Actually, Mopey, September sounds like a good date to me. At that time you can re-evaluate whether you want to stay married to this guy. In the meantime, keep working on YOU.

Mopey,

IMO I think that you and WS need to discuss your thread as being “your thread” and that you need to be allowed to have this place where you can discuss things without him constantly feeling the need to defend himself. And neither of you need be reading or posting on each others threads. As was pointed out to me recently, your thread is not for his consumption and his thread is not for your consumption! Agree to protect yourselves and your love for each other by intentionally avoiding each others threads, maybe this will help.

I’m praying for both WS and for you that your marriage will survive and thrive. &#61514;

I'm glad the boards are back up, but bummed that I don't have time to post much today. I have a big test tomorrow that I'm studying for.

A few hours before the boards went down that night, my daughter came over and I couldn't get back on the boards til later only to find out they were down. My daughter's timing was perfect though. She ended up staying the next three days with me. Not because of the boards though.....lol....unfortunately, she had some problems too and it was great that we could be there for each other.

Just an update before I can come back and respond to the posts that I received before the boards went down........

My situation is pretty much in the same place it was on 3/14 when I last posted, except for the fact that I am barely talking to Windstopped now.

He hasn't dropped the idea of a "re-evaluation in September to see if there's a point in continuing with our marriage" and I am still upset by the whole thing. I don't feel safe with him at all. He told himself when he married me "that if things didn't work out, he could always get a divorce". He still has that mindset.

I told him I didn't want to talk to him unless it was strictly business so I can take some time to sort this out. Just communicating with him, knowing that he doesn't know if he wants to be married to me right now, is more than I can handle after everything else at this point.

I am stepping back, trying to get my bearrings. Honestly, it's not looking too good for us.

He claims that divorce is not a path he wants to take, but divorce is still looming over my head anyway. He gets irritated that the possible divorce part is a problem for me. He says I am focusing on the wrong thing. How can I NOT focus on the fact that if I don't "progress" in my healing in a way that is suitable to him come Sept, that he may divorce me? I don't think so. I could, but I'm not going to. It doesn't feel safe to me and I can't even try to have a relationship with him right now. It's too painful for me.

I am keeping myself busy with school work and my daughter's wedding. (She's not a planner and I'm having a blast with it. We have the same taste so it's easy). I am still trying to get through about 5 books, one of them being the boundaries book. I'm still in counseling as well. I am just trying to keep it all together.

His "Sept date" has made me feel like a "present failure" of a wife in his eyes. I know I'm not. I've been hit with a TON of crap by him and never had the chance to be seen by him without all his garbage effecting me. Sad part is, he'll probably never see it. His garbage has affected me since I've known him.

It irks the heck out of me that if we divorce, he now knows about boundaries and will PROTECT any future partner, I think, from what he has put me through all of these years. His new relationship won't have all the pain and destruction mine currently does. I told him he'd probably make a good husband one day if he never hurts his next love interest. Then again, maybe he'll grow by that point and will be able to handle the consequences from his actions and they'll live happily ever after.

I HAVE to work on getting him out of my mind and possibly out of my life.

I AM a good person. I have lots of love to offer. I can be a lot of fun, and be responsible. I have lots of potential still. I want to be happy. I can be happy.

It's just going to take me a little while to get there. My path just sadly looks different today.

P.s. JK, thanks so much for the offer to chat. The boards went down before I could get your contact info. It would have been great to have that while the boards were down. I managed just fine like everyone else did. God has carried me through. I am grateful to have the support of this board back though.

I've got a lot on my plate the next few days, but I just might take you up on that offer. I need to constantly check, and re-check myself to make sure I'm not off balance. My therapist is trying to help me trust myself. Living with a gaslighter has made that very difficult.

Talk to you all soon.

Hi Mopey,

There are already lots of great posts on this thread, so I don't have much to add other than that I think that FWS's simply don't grasp how HARD recovery is.

While I would never have imagined how difficult it has been being a BS trying to achieve recovery and how terribly long it has taken, I think it came as even more of a shock to my FWH.

Honestly, who ever said that the affair would define the relationship forever was on the money.

IMHO, putting recovery on the clock so to speak is just going to assure that it will fail. It adds more stress to an already impossibly stressful time.

You can't rush healing from an affair anymore than you can rush healing from a physical injury. All that happens is that you cause further injury.

((((((Mopey)))))))

Who

Hello Mopey,
I have never posted to you but have read your threads and was feeling so hopeful for you and Windstopped.

Have you considered a Plan B? I wonder if deliberately cutting off contact with Windstopped might not help you at least get some emotional rest. As it is, you seem to have hit and miss contact that of course, leaves you in terrible turmoil.

In reality then, it won't matter what he decides or wants about a "deadline". You take care of yourself and if he sincerely decides he wants to work on the marriage that will be fine. If "his" deadline arrives and he decides he doesn't....well....he doesn't.

It seems to me that Plan B could be effective for you. I understand that it is really meant to help end an affair, but I know too that it is meant to protect any remaining love you have for your partner. You are not only protected from HIS love busters, but you are not able to inadvertently or otherwise love bust him.

IMVVHO, you have been fabulous and patient and deserve the best.
Praying for you.

WH2LE

Hey WhoMe and W2LE.....

Thank you for the kind words, hugs, and prayers. It really does mean a lot to me. And welcome to my thread W2LE.

And thank you too, TST. I don't think we'll be posting on each other's threads anymore.

As far as a plan B? Yeah, I've thought about it and haven't made any decisions on that yet. It's been less than two weeks and I want to get past this test before I think any more about it.

Windstopped has already said that there are certain things he's not willing to do, to help me recover and feel safe. So, I'm not sure if I even want to give him another chance back into my heart. What's the point? It'll just be more rejection. I have been rejected by him one too many times.

I am praying constantly for guidance, while continuing to do the things to get me to the other side of this pain and limbo. I know God doesn't like divorce but I think he'll care more about me than my broken vows. I hope so anyway. That's always been troubling for me.....wondering if God would bless me if I let him down.

I have to get back to the books. I keep reading the same paragraph over and over again..........

Mopey,

I haven't really followed your thread... so this will be short and sweet....

My WW set a date of June 1st to "re-evaluate if we want to get back together or stay separated"... She doesn't know it yet.... but I'm on my own time line with my own plan... not hers... Her June 1st means nothing to me...

I still haven't exposed the affair... Mainly because that's the advice I got from Jennifer... I'm going to expose when I go into plan B...


So... My "June 1st" is when I decide it is.... not when she decides it is....(If you don't understand ... It's a time space continuum thing...Just go with it...) LOL

Lol.....again.....I understand.

And I agree with you. I am on my own time line as well, which is however long it takes, so.....that keeps me sane and the pressure off of me. I know I am doing the best I can with what knowledge I have and I keep putting one foot in front of the other every day.

Thanks for pointing out that you feel the same.

Mopey,

I am sorry you are having such a hard time right now. I feel for ya, girl! I hope that things will turn around for you soon. I have so much respect for you that you continue to go to school and be a better person even though you are hurting so badly! You are a wonderful person and deserve the very best!

((((((mopey))))))

Thanks LaLa. This is an extremely difficult time and I really appreciate your support.

For interest I thought I'd add this, you don't have to read it though, just interesting I thought......

For my test tomorrow, I had to study about contracts. In the discussion, the book talked about fraud. I just copied and pasted from my notes.

Sounds like what happened to me when I took my marriage vows. I should be ok with this part of my test tomorrow since this was easy to understand.

Fraud – cheating. Can be a criminal and civil offense.

Fraud is intended.

Fraud is…..

False statement (Lie)

False statement of a fact

Material; has to be an important fact (like you’ve been promised waterfront property and you get a swamp)

There are damages.

Fraud in the execution – a misrepresentation that deceives the other party as to the very nature of the contract; renders the agreement void.

Fraud in the inducement – misrepresentation regarding the subject matter of a contract that induces the other party to enter into the contract; renders the contract voidable.

Misrepresentation – some positive statement or conduct that is not in accord with the fact.

And some other terms regarding contracts.....

Misrepresentation is not intended.

Concealment – action taken to keep another from learning of a fact.

Fiduciary – person who owes a duty of trust, loyalty, and confidence to another.

Fact – an event that took place or a thing that exists.
Opinion – belief in the existence of a fact or a judgment as to value.

Puffing – sales talk that is considered general bragging or overstatement.

Material – of substantial importance; likely to induce a reasonable person to enter into the contract.

Scienter – guilty knowledge

Justifiable reliance – reasonably influenced by the misrepresentation

Negligent misrepresentation - made without due care.

Innocent misrepresentation – misrepresentation made without knowledge of its falsity but with due care.

That was you guys lesson for today.


I pray you and W2S are well.

I remember that from my paralegal studies. Legal terminology is a whole nother language. Applying it to real life situations does make the understanding easier. Except when you get to the Latin stuff. Yuck!