"... a third of the marriages ended in divorce. Of the marriages that were "saved", the marriage improved in only one in seven cases. If the affair was long-term..improvement in the marriage was noted in only one case in twelve. All of these marriages involved marriage counselling to cope with the adultery."

That's a quote from the latest "Wayne & Tamara" column. Anyone know to which "respected study of adultery" they are referring?

I read those statistics last year. It was a study done by questioning marriage counselors, I think. I'll look for it.

To me all that says is how poor most MC actually is.

I bet Dr Harley would quote different statistics on recovery although I know he has said most marriages don't survive adultery, he also says he has a 100% success rate for couples following his program.

To be honest, I think you'd find very few BS's who would claim that their M is "better" after surviving adultery. It's a bit like claiming the quality of life is better after recovering from the amputation of a limb after a major accident.

MIM - I looked for the article and can't find it. I may have it saved at work. I'll look Monday. As I recall, it was a study where marriage counselors were asked the outcome of their counseling after infidelity. And it was something like only 1 in 7 being better than before the affair.

I think that's very subjective and speaks volumes about the recovery.

Hi MiM;

Except for the maggot in my brain, which keeps shrinking a bit as time goes on, I can say that the relationship I have with my wife has elements that are actually better than before she went crazy and I pulled my head out of my fundament.

She is still so obviously remorseful over the whole sordid event chain, I have had to tell her a few times to quit beating herself up.

Now it is that those who seek Harley and follow his teachings are going to report a very high percentage of success for a couple of reasons; one, they want to be successful and two, Harley has the right program.

The problem with normal, run of the mill counselors, is that they have a left wing, hippy, socialistic, feel good, cranial recticulitus faculty training that ill prepares them for the real world of unintended consequences for following emotions instead of moral principals. How can those who seek success survive THAT level of incompetance?

Larry

Funny thing is that I feel like have been educating our MC thru the past months of counseling. I have discussed the MB principals and explained about how much I have gotten out of reading SAA. Being told to "communicate" is fine and dandy when that is part of the issue, but communication is NOT the reason H screwed around.

The key here is "couples".

While I believe Dr Harley has the best program, his program was unable to bring my former wife on board. So if only one person participates, the quality of the program will not matter.

If one spouse is bent upon divorcing and continuing the affair and refuses all attempts at reconciliation and/or recovery, then it doesn't matter how good the program is.

I think a more useful stat, that I doubt we'll see published is how many BS's who come to Dr Harley ALONE end up with a reconciled marriage?

I was one of those BS, and my marriage is not recovered. I counselled with Jennifer, who was fantastic. WH would not talk to them and did not follow the plan. HE didn't lift a finger any higher than what it took to continue living in his home. NO signs of remorse, whatsoever.

If you come up against much resistance to the Harley plan, you are either in for a veeeeery long haul in recovery, or a false recovery. Most likely, the latter.

Or they won't even end the affair, and even file for divorce...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7643421

links to an abstract of the study

I think the reason for all affairs are lack of communication and understanding. Somebody is not talking. If the person who is unhappy in the marriage can open up enough and say what they are thinking and feeling perhaps the issues can be addressed before they get to the point where they think they have to step out of the marriage to get their needs met. Sometimes it's not easy to open up and it's not easy being the person on the other end of it, to hear that you're spouse is unhappy isn't all that much fun.

Just my take on all of this.

Funny, I would say lack of communication is a direct result of having an affair but probably all situations are different.

MB principals do more than just save marriages. They save BS's from a lifetime of bitterness and self destruction. They are an actual plan with steps that can be followed even from within the depths of h*** where most BS;s find themselves. They work to bring the BS back up into the daylight where they can function as a complete human being while the A slowly spirals down. At this point, whether the BS chooses personal or marital recovery, they are in a much better position for success.

Counsellors, marriage or otherwise, might be nice to talk to but I haven't met one yet that can actually tell me what to "DO" as opposed to helping me get past feelings. Only MB has this as far as I can tell.

How did you do this Tabby? Can you please share? I have not been able to find anything that can save me from my bitterness and self destruction here on MB or anywhere else.

Still_Crazy, I can't say I've beat the bitterness yet but I definitely feel I'm on my way. I found MB right around the same time WSTBX moved in with OW which was 2 weeks after D day. I was an emotional wreck and just couldn't muster a Plan A to save my life. WSTBXH got even nastier and the MB vets advised Plan B. Plan B sounded devastating (I was already dreading the last time I would have to see him to pay a bill or whatever little excuse) but I made a stab at it. Well guess what - I actually did start to feel better. In time, I realized that I felt worse when I did have contact with him than when I didn't. I also started to realize that I had control over my own life. I'm not saying I've learned to execute that control very well but I'm recognizing that it's there.

In my case, my M is over and I'm not doing anything to save it. OW can have him. I've learned too much about WSTBX to waste time waiting for him to give her up. This doesn't mean I'm over him and it doesn't mean the pain is healed. I find these concepts difficult for others to understand, including therapists. The last thing I want is a pat on the head with "there, there". Plan B, at least my modified version of it, empowers me to control what painful situations I expose myself to. Perhaps I execute it better because I am not hoping for marital recovery, but I can certainly see how it would help achieve that end. It's not just the effect on the WS (WSTBX goes through these "let's be friends" phases every once in a while). But the effect on the BS is very profound. The less I see him or hear from him, the less I think about him, the less I deal with him, the less bitterness I feel. Yes, it floods back as soon as I see him again but the solution to that - don't see him again. I know it's impossible for complete darkness (especially recently with DS's wedding) but the reasons to communicate are getting fewer and fewer.

I'm not there yet, but I'll get there.

Thanks for the response Tabby. I am working on a recovered M but can not get past my bitterness over the betrayal.

My FWH really is trying hard to make amends and do the right things but "I" am the one hurting our recovery now because of not "getting over it" so to speak.

Thank you all for the alerts. At this time we have NO reason to believe BA571 has ANY connection to a previously banned poster. It APPEARS to be just an unfortunate name choice.

Please join us in welcoming BA571 to MarriageBuilders.

*

SC,

Please don't feel like you need to RUSH your personal healing. This is not going to help you, it will only serve to cause you to BURY these feelings, so that everybody can be happy go lucky. It won't work.

Judging from your FWH's recent reaction to your request to POSSIBLY avoid working with a questionable person, HE still has a lot of work to do, too.

Stop assuming it's ALL you. Both of you need to be working on this. People always seem reluctant to ask this question, but what has your husband done for you to help you heal? What precautions is he taking; how is your opinion received? Are you two working within the constraints of POJA? From the sounds of your recent post on your thread, it doesn't sound so, but I may be mistaken. I KNOW what you've told me you are doing; what is he actually doing, on a regular basis to help you?

I honestly believe it takes a WS who is contrite and willing to do whatever it takes for you to heal. In my case, that was not so. I think you CAN heal to the point that you can survive in a marriage after infidelity, but I honestly couldn't tell you how happy you would be. In my book, that ends up equating to sacrifice, which will eat away at you.

You haven't read enough, especially the wisdom of Harley. Even really good marriages can be afflicted by adultery. Yes, you make a good point for "some" affairs, but by no means all of them.

Larry

SL i did not see this until a few minutes ago. The reason that i beat myself up so much and think that it is all me is because that is what my H keeps telling me. He says that i need to get over it and leave the past in the past. He has told me this numerous times.

SC,

I will say it again, this sounds like your FWH doing a lot of sweeping, and avoiding. Your not trusting him is part of the conseqences of his A. When you can't trust him, it's harder to let go of the past. I believe we use it as a reminder of how they CAN be, always looking for signs or waiting for that shoe to drop.

Read the four rules of recovery (Mimi posted a link in rprynne's thread rprynnes-what does being engaged in recvoery mean?

I don't see you guys exercising these rules, and that can set you up to go right back to the state of the marriage before the A.

I don't see protection at all. You have made it clear how uncomfortable you are with this 'guy' and he basically casts that aside for whatever his needs are. Independent behavior.

I have always TRIED to follow those rules throughout my M, they to me, are second nature. My H has always been one to cast my feelings aside. He gets upset with me if i do not have the same thoughts as him on something and he will do everything in his power to get me to change my mind to agree with him.

He believes that when it comes to "this guy" we do not know for sure and i am just making things up in my mind to make him suffer basically.

excellent points.

Of course if a couple were to FOLLOW Harley's plans the M would survive. That really is a meaningless statistic since if a FWS were to stray again after coaching with Harley...well, they were NOT following his plan (radical honesty) so that "failure" wouldn't count in the stats.

There are a few people here that have coached with the Harley's that I am sure the Harley's would not want to hold out as marital success.

I have said it many times, the Harley's give the best shot at recovery. Period. But nothing is a sure bet. Recovery from infidelity is still a crap shoot.

Dr. Harley's total stats are:

About 85% success rate overall, and as high as 95% with 3+ children.

These types of success statistics come from a self-selecting cohort. If BS and WS both want to save the M (i.e. garden variety adultery) MB is a useful method with useful tools. In particular, the going-in face saving tool for the WS to blame it on the missing EN gets things off the dime, at least.

But addictions, serial adultery, VLTAs, and all the nominally hard cases rarely make it past the BS initial panic call to the counseling center. So, they are down-selected early and aren’t counted in the failures. A number of posters here have written that the MB counseling center would not even accept their case because of various factors like these (e.g. Alphin a couple of years ago). I believe the Harleys would like to help all marriages, but they know when a BS will be wasting their money and their time. There is a strong element of triage present.

Further, I wonder what the timeline is. Like cancer remission statistics, is it still married after 5 years? 10 years? One month?

After the second affair, does the BS even bother to call back and move their case from the success column to the failure column? Probably not.

Another study done about six years ago found around 80% of ALL marriages encountering adultery end in LS or D within five years, period.