I'm new to Marriage Builders. I just found out my husband went on a cruise with another woman. The gross part is the day before he left we had sex. We've been having it the entire time he has been moved out. He denied having another woman so I thought it might help bring us together. He told me he was going out of town for business. When I found out my husband called me about five times that night saying he was sorry. I'm pretty sure the other woman didn't know he was calling and apologizing. When I discussed getting a divorce he said I think we just need some time to get over the anger/pain. We've been seperated but my husband makes it known that it would bother him if I went out with someone else. He gets jealous if I look nice and go out with friends. But, he's having an affair! Why would he want to be intimate with me the day before he went on a cruise with another woman? Why doesn't he just say he wants a divorce? Now that I know he's with another woman, I know he's been lying to her. I know why he would lie to me about an affair, but why lie to the other woman?????

Correct me if I am wrong vets...

I think you would call it cake-eating.

cake eating and back up plans.

he wants you available in case things don't work out with ow. or vice versa as well.

why have sex with one woman when you can have it with 2?

mlhb

Take away his safety net. If he want's to walk the rope, let him understand there will be no one there to catch him/. thus he will crash and burn.

He needs to see and understand the full consequence of his horrible choices.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Puppy,

Why would he want to be intimate with me the day before he went on a cruise with another woman?

Why does a dog lick himself?...BECAUSE HE CAN!!

Your WAYWARD HUSBAND is [censored] of the walk! In his mind he is the biggest STUD, PLAYER, and LOVER OF WOMEN since...gosh..well I guess nobody is as cool and suave as he is.

This is such a huge EGO fire that he seems to be feeding.

Plus, being separated, and getting jealous if you go out, while he is enjoying the cake is so selfish, but of course adultery is always about the selfish self-centered self satisfaction of the wayward lowlife.

Now he is on the boat with the other chick calling you to apologize!

I'm sure the reason he moved out was because of the OW. How long ago did he move out?

You have been unknowingly plan Aing him all this time and he took total advantage of it. He is already out of the house...maybe a hard dark plan B would bring him to his senses.

IMHO

kirk

I'm so angry right now. Do spouses usually lie to both the wife and the other woman? I'm sure he's told her that we're over. That's not what he's telling me. Or do they tell the other woman the truth, that he's not sure if he wants a divorce or he's filed (he hasn't). Why so many lies!!!

Hi puppy Sorry you're here chere. I don't blame you for being particularly mortified. He's indulged his own selfish pleasure at your expense both emotionally and financially.

But on a cruise or not....the rules still apply to him. If he won't end the affair right now....in this case get OFF the boat at the next port and fly home.....then I think it's a really perfect time to expose to the other spouse (if there is one) and the other people who are really close to your husband. It ought to be an interesting homecoming.

In the meantime....I hate to bring this up because it's so painful....but please go get tested for STDs and make sure your financial interests are secured. Get an attorney and make sure that's in place before he even gets back.

Read up on Plan A and B and ask lots of questions, and don't forget that the Harley's probably even do phone counseling on boats!

Every WS/FWS I've spoken with are always worried about the BS exacting revenge.

I think maybe he had sex with you the day before the cruise thinking, "That'll hold her over until I get back".

I mean, he's God's gift to women and all...

Very good point about exposure...do as much as you can before they get back, and don't give them any warning. If nothing else, you'll ruin the entire cruise for them, even after it's over.

Thank you for your comments. Kirk I'm sure he thinks he's a stud but the other woman is ugly. She doesn't compare to me at all. I almost think maybe I settled if he can be with a woman that is so unattractive. Maybe I think he looks better than he does if all he can get is her. I mean if your going to cheat then do it right. I don't think she has probably ever had a date except with her husband that she had an affair with before this one. Yes, she's a real winner. Definately one to ruin a marriage over!!!!

Oh yes, yes and YES!!

You would hardly believe some of the lies!

But he would lie to his SOULMATE OW???

You betcha!!

That makes their relationship nothing more than a house of cards that will disintegrate with a strong puff of wind. You can't build a house on a foundation of slushy sludge in the swamp!!

Some people go bottom-feeding (no pun intended) now and then because they are damn near "worshipped" by the troll they lowered themselves to have sex with.

It's like getting an ego boost by beating up a quadraplegic.

Puppy,

The OW in my life was described as road hard and put away wet. I have always thought of myself as UGLY.

When I first got a look at her, by meeting her I almost dropped dead at how UGLY she is. It absolutely floored me.

What I have learned is that people ALWAYS affair down...

Great analogy!!

Thanks everyone. I have a smile on my face. I guess it makes you feel better to slam to other woman or man. But, honestly I think you're right he did affair DOWN!!!! I really wish she could see he was lieing to her. I'm sure she sits there in her fantasy world thinking he tells her the truth all the time. I would love to know if he told her he was calling me 5 times to apologize to me while he was on the cruise. If I know him he probably told her he had to go to the bathroom and then tried to make the call secretly. Because he wouldn't want her to get upset about calling his wife. That just might ruin the trip. I wonder if she realizes why he sneaks away to call his kid? Maybe he's talking to his wife. DUH!!!!!

Puppy, feel free to read my story as you have time. (Link below.)

Your WH is behaving exactly as expected, but you have a very good chance to bring about an end to the A and recover your M anyway.

neak... your link doesn't work... i wanted to read your story as well.

Puppylove,
It sounds like you know who the OW is, or at least have seen her. Do you have a name? If your WH is still on the cruise, why not call the boat and have her paged for a phone call. Im sure they have a way to do that, since emergencies have to come up sometimes. When you get her on the phone, tell her some stuff that will RUIN their little vacation.

I know who the othwer woman is. I have so much stuff to tell her but hey she wouldn't listen to me. She'll listen to my husband who is lieing to her. She wants to believe him so she will. I guess she is OK with being the other woman. That's all she could ever be. I guess when you are desperate for attention you'll take it from a married man with kids!

Update. I spoke to my husband yesterday and he said he loved me and he was going to tell other woman he made a mistake. Funny he just went on a cruise with her! I'm smart enough to know that conversation won't take place. I don't think he ever told her about the phone calls to me during their cruise together. I'm pretty sure he went and secretly made them. I just wish the other woman would have enough guts to call me because then I could let her know that her "soulmate" has been lieing to her the entire affair!!!

I just read a post that cake eating affairs are the easiest to break up because the spouse I guess really can't decide who he wants to be with. Is this correct? I am doing Plan A right now but not for long.

I read that too, but always think that any affair where the WS stays in the house is a cake eater affair.

Is hubby still on the cruise, or is he at home?

He's at home. He has moved out though but keeps very strong ties at home. Doesn't want me to date others. Told me he wonders if he made the right decision in moving out again. He seems to change his mind everytime he's with the other person be it then other woman or myself. I guess I have history on my side and we have children together. He left her once to move back home so I guess it's not eveything I think it is.

And you have done a good, solid Plan A for how long?

About 6 months. He denied he was with other woman. I instinctivly did Plan A. Then found this website. Even though he moved out I still beieve he is a cake eater. I know he lies to the other woman. No one would stay with a married man who still says he doesn't want a divorce. I'm sure he's told her otherwise. I'm sure he doesn't tell her we were intimate. I wonder though still why lie to the other person. Why lie to me about the affair. I all ready know about it..why not just say yes i'm with other person and were happy. Why keep hiding it and dening it if we were truly over????

Of course he is lying to both of you. How long do you think the affair would last if he told the OW that he was still very involved with you and she was just sidepork?

The WS lies to keep the affair going. They make all kinds of promises to the OW that they love them, are leaving the wife, just waiting for this or that. It is pretty sickening. I read a bit on the OW site, and the WS's are all the same.

It would be good if you could contact her and tell her the real story.

Also you need to get ready for Plan B.

Believer thanks for your response.  Ok I see why he would lie to other woman now but why me? I know about the affair. Why not just come clean and have his side thing for good with no interference from me? Sometimes I feel like maybe I'm the side thing. That he's in this affair and happy but won't let go of our marriage. Why does he seem to just hang on? It would be easier if he just said he wants a divorce and is through with our marriage. Why keep putting me through this?

He's not going to tell you everything because even though you have stayed with him until this point, he is probably afraid that you might leave if you knew it all. I think he probably also has some level of guilt in admitting all that he does...even to himself. My FWH lied to me throughout the first two years mainly because he couldn't admit what he was doing because it bothered him too much. Not enough to stop it, mind you, and not enough to end it for FOUR years...it just went into deeper hiding.

Why would he be afraid I would leave if I knew it all? He is all ready in affair. I'm assuming it's over between us if he is with someone else..am I wrong? I guess I don't understand..why hide? I know about it. Is it because he really doesn't want to give up his marriage? So he hides it still to make sure I don't get upset enough to leave him? Don't you think the other woman would get tired of sneeking around? Don't you think she would say why do we need to sneek around now your wife knows about us?

Thanks for your replies. Believer- Is husband cake eating? What if he had contact with me during affair but no intimate contact. Is that still cake eating since he's getting some of his emotional needs met by me? Is cake eating always about the intimate contact?

Your husband is behaving just like they all do. Mine swore that he wasn't having an affair even when they were living together. It's a very strange thing. He will tell you one thing, and her something else.

Mine likes to say we were seperated. I guess that makes it OK. We weren't seperated when the affair began. If they continue to lie about the affair is that actually a good thing? Does it mean that they have some doubts about the affair partner? Or do they just lie about it so they don't have to deal with any consequences at the moment. Mine still gets defensive if I talk about a divorce. What does he want me to do be a good little wife and let him have his affair. In the meantime In shouldn't date cause I'm not like that!

Why don't the other women believe that the cheating husbands are lieing to them? Why do they believe them? Mine went on a cruise and I guarantee when he got caught he didn't tell her about calling me so many times apologizing. I'm pretty sure he excused himself to go to the restroom and made the calls secretly. If other woman and my husband are soulmates.. why not tell her the truth about calling me? Why hide that from your soulmate..I mean you can tell them anything right!!!

what you don't seem to be getting is that he wants both of you. and right now he gets both of you. if things don't work out with you he has ow and vice versa. that is why he tells all of the lies.. to appease BOTH OF YOU.

if you have been plan Aing than it is time to move to plan b and stop his cake eating.

mlhb

Puppylove,
Read the above quote again and again until it fully sinks in. You are trying to fit your WH's behavior to some model of normalcy and logic. But the truth is, your WH has 2 women waiting on him every minute of the day and doing their best to meet whichever EN he wants. The behavior of a wayward spouse is profoundly selfish, and you can see that here. You need to stop trying to apply pre-affair behavior standards to a mid-affair man. They are not the same person, so to speak.

If both you and the OW are willful participants in his little game, then he has no reason for change. His statements about Divorce and you dating are designed to control you and keep you in his twisted little lifestyle. If you have really been in Plan A for 6 months, its time to remove yourself from the situation as you are currently enabling his behavior. I think you need to go to Plan B immediately. Send him the letter, set up an intermediary that he has to go through if he wants to pass a message to you, and change the locks on your house so he can't just show up whenever he pleases.

Go dark and I think you have a very good chance of busting up the affair. Continue to do what you are doing and you will be here a year from now in the exact same situation. He is not going to choose between you and her, because he doesn't have to. To force a decision, either you or the OW will have to declare "enough".

Good luck.

He seems to pull away from me more right now. I think because if he doesn't talk to me as much I won't ask too many questions. If I ask questions he has to lie to me which makes him uncomfortable. Am I right? Or does he want her more and is using me as a back up? He left other woman once to return home. My feeling is if it was so great with her why come home in the first place. I don't think he was prepared when he returned for all the emotions he would have to work through. He second guessed himself and thought he made a mistake because he was in withdrawal and tried to return to the affair to alleviate the uncomfortable feelings. He knows I want our marriage to work. I believe he thinks I would take him back anytime so he's able to hang out there comfortably testing the waters so to speak. If someone really wants a divorce and is unhappy in their marriage won't they just file for one? I mean he has another person it's not like he'd be lonely. Or does he really not want to divorce me?

Andrew- If I decalre enough doesn't that just make his decision easier...he doesn't have to make one! Then he will go off into fantasy land and will say I was the one who wanted a divorce or I was the one who decided not to wait on him because I I really didn't love him after all or I would have waited for him!!!!!!!!
He really does think that way. He will justify his behavior by saying see I was right you really don't love me!

Do they usually choose the wife...especially if they are cake eaters or fence sitters? Since they never really choose to leave the marriage for some reason.

Are you keeping up with theotherhalf's story? THAT is what happens when the waffling between women goes on too long.

Puppylove,
He absolutely will have to make a decision if you declare that enough is enough. He will have to choose to leave the OW for good if he wants to keep you in his life. He may choose to rationalize it as you say and keep dating the OW, but she will have to meet all the ENs that you were meeting. What if your husband kept you on the side, because she CANNOT meet those needs. It won't be too long before your husband can't stand her because of all the lovebusting and unmet expectations.

Part of going to Plan B is writing a letter that outlines the path back to the marriage. You make it clear that you are cutting off contact, not because you don't love him, but because his behavior in the affair is too hurtful towards you. To protect your remaining love for him, you need to sever all contact with him until such a time as he is willing to end the affair and return to the marriage. Then you outline what you will need to accept him back, such as no contact for life, total transparency and accountability, complete honesty, marriage counselling, whatever you need.

The letter also serves as a formal, written reminder that you are not choosing divorce. You are just trying to protect yourself from his selfish and hurtful choices.

Only you can decide whether its time to go to plan B. But try and think about this objectively. You have been Plan A'ing for 6 months and your husband does not live at home. He seeks SF with you but goes on a cruise with her and then calls to apologize to you. Are you happy with this situation? Because it won't change until you change your part in it.

I am not sure if there is any meaningful statistic for this. Some will experience an epiphany of sorts and choose the wife immediately. Some will try to make it work with OW, but that relationship falls apart. Some will do everything they can to break the blackout of Plan B so they can continue cake eating. Others will simply believe that recovery is too hard and "too much has happened".

One thing that is preached on these boards is to not place expectations on your actions because they will only serve to hurt you further. You go to Plan B because its the right thing to do to protect your emotional well-being and any remaining love for your WH. You don't go to Plan B as a ploy to get him to choose your marriage. Dr. Harley says that everyone has their limit for Plan A. If you stay in Plan A too long, you run the risk of losing so much love for your WH that you will no longer want to recover your marriage.

Believer- What do you mean with keeping up with the other half's story?

Andrew- Thanks for your comments. You're right I do need to protect myself and my feelings for my husband. It's difficult because he won't sever ties with me. It makes it harder than if he just divorced me.

Believer,

""and she was just sidepork?""

VERY AWESOME!!

krusht - LOL, glad you like it.

Puppylove - Read theotherhalf's thread. She has been put up with 3 in her marriage too long, and beat up the OW over the weekend. Now she is facing JAIL.

There is a limit to what the BS can endure. Everyone needs to try Plan A for a short span (months), and then go to Plan B.

Well husband at it again. My kids have practice tomorrow night and husband suggested we get together after practice. I know what that means. I think when he has the kids he can spend time with me without the other woman wondering where he's at or who he's with. She doesn't know he's with me sometimes. I almost don't mind. I know it sounds crazy but I feel like I'm getting revenge. She has no idea he's with me. I know he's probably said we're through, when in fact I asked him to leave when he broke no contact. I know it sounds petty but I just wish she knew everything that was going on. She sits over there thinking her soulmate is so into her when in fact he's spending time with me. Thats what she gets for messing with a married man with kids. She should spend some time mending her own marriage.

Why don't you expose the affair to HER husband?

Why are you ok with taking his scraps? HER sloppy seconds?
I wouldn't have sex with him! How do you know he doesn't have some STD from her?

You need to make a decision whether or not you want to save your marriage or if you just want to be the second choice. He has NO REASON to end his affair right now. None whatsoever.

Do you plan to give him a reason to?

mlhb

I'm writing a Plan B letter as we speak. I've had enough. I guess I don't feel like seconds because I'm the wife. She's the pond scum getting what she can from a married man. I don't intend to continue. I was in Plan A and wasn't sure if the affair was on or not. He said he wasn't with her anymore. It wasn't until the cruise that I found out they nwere together.

Believer-

I read a post of yours somewhere that said "97% of all affairs end and the wayward spouse usually ends up back home" Did I get that right? I can't remember where I saw it.

97% of affairs end. And of the 3% that go on to marriage, 75% end in divorce before 5 years.

Thanks Believer. I knew I read something like that.

By the way the other womans husband does know. I don't believe he really cares to make their marriage work. I don't blame him. Their relationship started out as an affair. What can he say right. He got what he deserved.

Oh, and of course his first marriage was on the rocks and they were "seperated" which we all know is nonsense. Just a nice little way of making themselves feel better.

Do they REALLY think people believe that!!!!!

Sorry for all the venting!!!!!!

Sorry for all the questions. I'm still trying to learn and understand.

I know I won't fully understand but I feel better prepared with more knowledge. I've read so much here and learned even more.

Before I Plan B (I know I'm doing it to protect my feelings for my husband and help myself and move forward) can someone tell me how Plan B impacts the spouse?

If Plan B allows me to move forward, wouldn't allow the souse to do the same? Out of site out of mind and continue on in his fantasy land?

I know about having the other woman meet all his needs but because we have children and I handle most of their scheduling I feel like he's still getting some needs met by me. By taking care of the kids/homework/sitters/house/yardwork etc. Is that true? Or should I not worry about those things so much?

Plan B Here I Go!!!!!!!!

Have you set up an intermediary for him to go through in case he needs to ask you something. Plan B is hard and you need to stick to your guns.

Have you written the Plan B letter? You could post it here for advice from the vets.

Eveything is set. I don't know what to expect in the beginning if anything. Any input? Will he let it go a while until he starts to realize I'm serious. Do they not care in the beginning and think great now she's out of the way. Will he try to contact immediately. Vets any input would be helpful. By the way I feel better all ready just knowing I did it.

I suggest you post your letter here so we can vet it. WS's are different in their reaction. Mine came over to my home and pounded on the door for 2 hours, wanting to talk. Then I heard NOTHING for 3 months, and 2 days before Christmas he called me at work to announce he was moving back in (while still with OW, by the way).

I've seen others that ended the affair and came home right away.

Most don't respect the Plan B letter and keep attempting contact. But there are many who DO, and the BS hears nothing for months and months.

Sorry, not much help................

Any input is help. thanks for your response. Just wondering what things might be like in the coming days or months or anything I guess. I was hoping I guess that he would come running home. Apologizing and asking me not to leave. I guess that is not going to happen.. I suppose I knew it wouldn't anyway. My spouse would have said that's what you said you wanted what am I suppose to do? You're the one who doesn't want any contact. Anyway, I'm a little down. Yet I'm also relieved.

PL

I'm hoping you will stay very dark. Don't meet any of his emotional needs. Let the OW meet them all. Just remember, everytime you have contact with him, you are helping HER.

Thanks. I like that everytime I have contact with him I'm helping her. That should help on the days that seem tough. I'm used to talking to him everyday. Even if it is about the kids mostly. Does that count as meeting his needs as well...talking about the kids and their schedule?

I saw my husband briefly yesterday. I didn't speak to him but I could tell he seemed irritated/mad maybe.

I'm not sure he just couldn't seem to look at me. I don't know if he's angry over my letter or ashamed. Any input???

What did you say in your Plan B letter?

Plan B means no contact at all, nada, no seeing him, no talking to him. This is why you have an intermediary in place and your financial and legal arrangements in place BEFORE you go to Plan B. Did you do all of this?


Plan B also means that you don't worry about what he's doing, what he's feeling, where he's been or where he's going. The only concern you have about WH during Plan B is IF he is ready to meet your conditions set out in your Plan B letter. That's why we encourage folks to post their Plan B letter BEFORE they send it out.

So, take a breath. Let us know the details of how you set up Plan B.

Basically I used the letter in the book SAA. I said i love him but cannot/will not have a relationship with him as long as the other woman is in the picture. I said it is too hurtful etc. Short and sweet. He did not answer back or try to contact me. This was yesterday.

Everyday is getting easier. I think because for the first time I'm not sure if I want him back. I do however know that I want a man who loves me, cares for me, and takes care of me. He used to do that until the affair. He still cares for me(financially) but not emotionally. I think I'm ready to let someone in my life.

I still love my husband but I don't think he is strong enough to fix this. I don't think he is capable of making a decision on our marriage. If the other woman wants him she can have him. I'm not fighting for him anymore. He's not worth fighting for. My husband was..not this man that he's become.

Puppylove,
You do not need to make any hasty decisions here. I think your feelings now are pretty normal. I've seen many Plan B implementations here and it almost always results in peace and strength for the BS. While your current WH may not be worth fighting for, do you think he can become the man he once was? Would HE be worth fighting for? I think you should give Plan B a little time to work to see if it can bring about the changes in your husband that Plan A couldn't.

Also, I am a bit concerned that you said you are ready to let someone in to your life. Do you mean that you are ready to find a new man? I would caution you not to start dating or even looking really until your divorce is final, if you decide to go that route. Any man worth having will respect that decision and wait for you to be a legally and spiritually free woman.

Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm just having the Plan B blues. It's still new to me. I don't know if my husband can be the man he was. If so then I could fight for him. No I'm not ready to let a man into my life but the website always talks about meeting our needs.

My husband hasn't met my needs in years. Why then could I not find someone who will. What about my needs. Am I supposed to stay in limbo for another year while he gets his needs met and I don't. While he's in fantasy land and I have to put my life on hold until he comes out of this stupid fog!!!And I don't mean put my life on hold as far as caring about myself and kids. I mean by finding someone who wants to pay attention to me. Wants to be around me. etc. Someone who doesn't have all this emotional stuff going on. Someone who is whole and knows the value of a good woman.

I know I sound bitter. I am. I feel like I'm in a different place now. Before I KNEW we could make it. Now I don't know. Now I'm not sure if I want to. Maybe I'm in a good place. Maybe I'm where I need to be to get over this. Maybe my husbnad might sense that he is truly losing me. Maybe not. Maybe he won't even notice. All I know is I feel different.

Puppy -take care of yourself. Work on you. If he decides to leave a woman who has been faithful and met his needs.... but you are early in plan B. It can be very, very effective.

But YOU can control how you feel. If you talk to God - then give it all to Him and know that He is in control. Knowing that God is in charge of it will give you a lot of peace about things right now.

far

I will work on me. This is just the beginning.

It still drives me crazy that the other woman still believes my husband isn't lieing to her. Where does she come off thinking she's so wonderful that he wouldn't lie to her? I know he didn't tell her he called me so many times when they were on their cruise. And in case she's reading this...he didn't just talk to the kids dummy!!!!!

When I was with my husband and he wanted to check his phone messages he used to say he had to go to the bathroom. Doesn't she get suspicious? Especially since he left her once to come back home!!

By the way I know he would check his messages in the bathroom because I would write down date and time he went then when the cell phone bill came in I could reference the date and time and see while he was in the bathroom he checked his messages!!!!

Andrew-
Thanks for your reply. I just get confused as to why my husband seems to change his mind almost everyday. Why does he lie to me and the other woman.

you don't seem to grasp that he lies to both of you because he wants to keep both of you in his life. he lies to her so she won't leave and to you so you won't pursue leaving. you and ow are his back up plans. if he loses one of you, then the other one will be there for him.

if he ditches ow to come home to you and things don't work out, then he is left with no one. and vice versa.

get it?

it is really as simple as that for a wayward.

mlhb

He did dump her to come home but only stayed about 4 months. Then broke NC and moved out again. I read somewhere that when the WS moves out again to relieve the symptoms of withdrawal that it only lasts a while then the depression comes back with a vengence. Do you believe this is true. I can't help but feel like I got dumped and he is now living the life he wants. I feel like I'm the back up plan. Are the BS usually the back up plans or is it really the OP? In some ways I feel like my husband knows deep down that the affair won't or can't go anywhere. He wants said to me "if there wasn't something between us we would have been done long time ago" something is still keeping us together.

well, until you do a very dark Plan B he has no reason whatsoever to stop having his affair.

if Plan B does nothing then you have your answer.

mlhb

That is a wayword. They lie and I believe they actually try to convince themself that its true. Also at least in my case they reinvent their lives. For justification for their actions. So they don't feel guilty about the pain and hurt they have caused.

Just stay strong and do NOT beleive what he says to you. All of your emotions are normal. I truly am sorry what he is putting you through.

I'm in Plan B right now. Just the beginning. I still have a lot of questions. I guess I'm looking for a little reassurance. I think it would make the first weeks of Plan B easier. I do keep telling myself if I call him I'm helping her.

My husband says that I confuse him. That one day I'm OK the next day I want nothing to do with him. I gave him the letter, it's clear that I love him and want to work things out but not under these conditions.

I dont know that if I go dark that he will assume that I'm through even though the letter states that Im not.

Unfortunately, there are no guarantees. You cannot control what he thinks. All you can do is say "I won't live in this hurtful, emotionally draining situation any longer. I'm willing to work on recovering our marriages, but only when you meet this conditions...". You could lay it out so clearly and simply that a 3rd grader would understand you, and your WH may still convince himself that you are done with him.

This may be because he cannot work up the guts to face the damage he has done to you. Who knows? The best thing you can do for yourself is understand that you have taken a positive step for yourself. It is the first step on the road to healing yourself and becoming a stronger, more independent woman. Your husband may or may not choose to join you on that path. Thats his choice, or maybe I should say, his loss.

But your choice to go to Plan B is a choice to operate out of a sense of worth and self respect.

When did he say this? I hope you are not talking to him directly, as that defeats the purpose of Plan B. From here on out, you need to be consistent in the front you put up. Even if you love him and want him back, you cannot backslide. You must cling to the knowledge that you will not accept him back while he is in the affair with the other woman.

Puppy,

I've been where you are. I confused my WH just like you have done. I did the Plan B letter, then didn't stick to the conditions. My WH looked at the PBL as a Dear John letter. I told him in the letter and in several emails that there was to be NO contact with OW. He just didn't get it. Continued to lie and sneak around to be with her. I allowed it because I didn't do Plan B right the first time. Thought we were different because he kept coming back begging and pleading.

It led to our last encounter. I found out that he was still seeing her and I blew up, called him a few choice names, and told him to communicate with me only through my atty.

That was 9 months ago and I haven't seen or heard from him since.

What happens when you don't stick to your PBL and your boundaries is that they continue to cake eat. They want both. They'll do ANYTHING to have both. It only results in you getting frustrated and angry. And like in my case you eventually love bust.

I did Plan B for the wrong reasons too. I wanted it to bring him back. I did it before I was ready to protect me.

I know that you think he is different, your sitch is different, your M is different, whatever, but trust me, it is not. I've seen it time and time again here, and all affairs are the same.

Anyway, do Plan B to protect you. You have to be ready to let them go when you do it, and not expect anything.

Stay dark. Don't let him continue to hurt you.

I'm in Plan B but still have questions about it. If husband takes the letter the wrong way, why would he try to return if he thinks I'm through? Won't he just be angry and say that's why he didn't want me after all? I guess Plan A seems more natural because you're showing them you want to be with them. Plan B just seemed to make my husband angry. I feel like I have to go back and say something nice or he will just write me and our marriage off. What is the plan supposed to do. I know about removing me from the pain etc from the spouses behavior. Any wayward spouses here to help explain what went through your head during Plan B?

Also first time husband moved out he was clearly cake eating. We had contact (dinners,intimacy) but second time he does not seem to want me at all (except before his cruise). Why different the second time around? Is he really through with me and doesn't want to "cheat" on her or is he afraid that I might tell the other woman if he did try to come around or approach me with sex. Why the change the second time? Is that a bad sign?

Puppylove,
You seem fixated on trying to logically dissect something that inherently follows no logic. You are only setting yourself up for long, sleepless nights. One goal of Plan B is to remove yourself from this thinking so you can end the stress you are feeling, not perpetuate it.

You cannot make your husband see reason and you cannot make him understand the goal of the Plan B letter, no matter how clearly you write it. Some people will simply use anything to rationalize/justify their own behavior, or to avoid the difficult path of integrity and honor. If he isn't ready to put in the effort to regain YOUR trust, then he is going to use the Plan B letter to tell himself that YOU left HIM. Because that way, he doesn't have to admit to himself thats its his own cowardice that ended his marriage.

All you can do is clearly state that you are done sharing him with another woman, and when he is ready to work towards an exclusive, monogamous marriage with you, he can get that message to you. Then you stick to it.

Also, please don't even consider sleeping with this man again before he presents you with a full battery of STD test results. We have posters on this board who have contracted incurable STDs from the Wayward Spouse. Not only does it flagrantly violate Plan B, but you put yourself at risk for a life-threatening disease.

I was in Plan B but because of of an incident with my child I had communications with my WH. Limited communication but communication. Sorry I messed up.

I'm in Plan B again but my WH said something strange during that talk we had. After a couple of conversations about 3 months ago about him thinking he MIGHT want a divorce, if he was mad he DID want a divorce, only to follow up with the last one (last week during our short exchange) let's take some time before we do anything, we've both had a really bad week. (meaning last week).

Briefly, the broken Plan B was because I found out he tried to take my children around the OW and say she was a friend. I lost it and said that he will not take my kids around other woman and if he did I would tell them who she is in a minute. (I will) I was so angry I was the one ready to divorce him. He knew I was serious..you can mess with me but don't f*** with my kids. (sorry for that but that is exactly how i feel)

That's when he said let's take some time before we do anything. (I am assuming he's talking about attys and divorce..as I was ready to get one that day!) I said I can't force him to come home that he needs to be emotionally ready, and be willing to give up the affair. I also stated that I had told him before that we could move away and start over, that I was willing but he had to break the affair first. I suggested he see a counselor.

We talked a while and we both agreed this whole thing has taken a toll on both of us and agreed to see counselors to help. He said he couldn't sleep or work all week. I'm not sure if he will see one but is just trying to appease me. Any input from anyone one would be appreciated.

I'm not sure if the incident scared him or if he is trying to buy more time again thinking he will know what he wants in a few months. He was really shaken by the whole incident.

So, what do you guys think? Trying to buy time (he was a big time cake eater for a long time). Or do you think that incident may have scared him a bit (reality)!! And as far as I go back to Plan B. (P.S. He did not try to break my Plan B, it was me saying not to take the kids around OW.

Plan B means no contact. You need an intermediary. Even though the conversation started with the kids, it went on (as they always do) to the relationship.

Now he has a puppylove fix, and will have a much nicer week.

And now YOU are starting to wonder what everything he said meant.

Believer-

You're right I am thinking about what he said again. I'm new to Plan B so I still question things. Not at the point of not thinking about him yet.

Is it still just fog babble? Just trying to delay because he doesn't want to deal with reality or is he still in the I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing stage?

I had felt like our marriage was over when he tried to take the kids around the other woman. I felt like it meant he was moving forward with her. Do the other women sometimes put pressure on the affair partner to bring them around their children? My husband does not like confrontation and if she's pushing him he will try to appease her even if he really doesn't want them around her either.

If he wants to be with the other woman, why doesn't he just ask for a divorce (says he wants one sometimes other times lets just wait blah blah blah but never gets one). Why do some wayward spouses just pick up and totally leave. Why do some leave everything they own, pay all of our bills, buy me a new car, and drag out the entire thing????

Affair partners are so much in their druglike induced state that they see no problem introducing children to the affair partner. It happens almost all of the time. It is rare when the WS has sense enough not to involve the children.

Your children need to know that the OW is NOT a friend of the family.

Any Plan B vets want to encourage me????

Anyone want to help? I feel like giving up? I have no hope anymore. I hope it's just the way I feel today. I used to be so much more optimistic about our marriage. I read so much about how most affairs end and the spouse sometimes tries to make the marriage work. That's what gave me strenght in all this.

Lately though I 'm feeling much less optimistic. I know what I am supposed to do concentrate on me, my kids, friends, etc. It's so hard when everyone tells me he's just stringing me along. Why do I still love him after all he's done etc. I try to tell them I can't just turn off the love switch. No one seems to get it. I'm trying so hard to do a good Plan B. It's hard. I talked to my husband almost everyday. I feel like it makes his affair easy when I step out of the picture. He gets everything thing he wants and doesn't have to deal with a divorce, custody issues etc. I feel like it helps him stay in his fantasy world.

Can someone please tell me some good sites to visit that will bring back the hope? A site that will explain Plan B really well so I can understand how it works to protect me and what it does to my husband.

This is from Longhorn's guide, posted on Just Found Out. You might read through the whole thread.

Plan A sometimes works. Dr. Harley says it doesn’t 85% of the time. Therefore, a Plan A is usually, logically, followed by Plan B. The temptation is to skip Plan A and go straight to Plan B. That doesn’t work in the overwhelming number of cases. You have to build a basis for Plan B so the wayward spouse finds out what he or she will be missing.

In Plan B, you cut off all communication with your wayward spouse. Having shown them how wonderful a person you can be as a marriage partner, you remove yourself from their lives to show them how bad it is out there without you. In Plan A, fence-sitting is almost unavoidable. Your wayward spouse gets some of their emotional needs met by you and others met by the other person. In Plan B, you suddenly, and completely, stop providing those needs you had been filling for your spouse. When they aren’t being met, it increases strife in that fantasy world your spouse and his or her partner in adultery have in common with only each other. Strife begets pressure. Pressure begets unhappiness. Unhappiness begets separation…and you win.

Plan B may require a legal separation or the equivalent in your state. Discuss your needs with an attorney. Get a good one. You need a bull dog to represent you, not someone who goes with the flow.

At this point, if you have not already done so, you need to separate your finances from your wayward spouse’s. Safeguarding your financial situation and making sure your assets cannot be looted by a wayward spouse still in the fog is different for everyone but here are some suggestions.

You can have the current joint credit cards cancelled and new ones issued only in your name. You need to make sure the WS can't drain checking & savings accounts. You might need to establish checking accounts the WS cannot access. Make sure you have access to enough cash/assets to pay the bills, etc. Powers of attorney might need to be looked at, if any are currently in effect. Don’t agree to any new obligations, new second mortgages, new cars, commit to paying WS’s expenses, etc., etc.

Thanks Believer.

I made an appt to see my psychologist. I'm pretty sure he will not understand why I am fighting for my marriage. He will probably think I'm co dependent or whatever. Thought I would give it a try though.

I'm to the point where I don't think anything is going to change my husbands mind. I have a hard time thinking that they are having this wonderful time and thinking I'm a loser. I spoke to a MB counselor the other day and she said he sounds like he is struggling with this. I have a difficult time sitting back and waiting to see what happens. I am working on myself and pretty much enjoying myself but I am also doing it with the hopes that he returns. The MB counselor said that the real world stuff will begin to take its' toll on their relationship. We'll see what happens.

I get in the mood sometimes where I just want to call him up and say I'm out. You've won.

I was there. I really wanted to just call him up and end it and then say,

I mean it! I really really mean it! I know you don't believe me but I really and truly mean it! I'm done!

But yanno, everytime I wanted to do that, the REAL reason behind my "really" was just to stir the pot, get a reaction, MAKE HIM TELL ME HE GETS IT. I didn't have MB. You do.

You cannot force him to do anything. Don't call him and tell him that you're out, unless you mean it. Not if you really, really mean it (just to get him to act or respond or whatever). It doesn't work that way.

Be patient. Work the MB plans to the letter. You will become a better you. The icing on the cake will be if your husband comes back... but if he doesn't... you're in good shape.

Thanks princessmeggy- You're right. If I do that it's probably so I can hear him give me a reason to hold off on a divorce. He used to say he didn't want one. Then when he was mad he would say he did. This has been 2 years and he's never gotten one. You're so right! I just need to hear him give me a reason not to file. That's where I get my hope. I feel like if he hasn't gotten a divorce yet, is he ever going to? Does he really not want to let me go deep down? Is there still hope?

Puppy,

I have been catching up on your thread and as I read "mental masturbation" keeps popping into my head. In every post of your's you are thinking what if this happens, or is he doing that, or what's he thinking or is he mad? You seem to be over analyzing this.

In plan B WHO CARES WHAT HE IS DOING OR THINKING!! Plan B is for YOU, to enjoy yourself and feel better, which sounds like it is working for you. The only time you think about your cake eating fence sitting WH is when he agrees to all your terms and commits to RE-BUILD THE MARRIAGE. Nothing BUT that.

Another reason for plan B is so you will not TOTALLY LOSE ALL FEELINGS FOR your cake-eating fence-sitting WH. The more you speak with him and he manipulates you, which cake eating fence-sitters do best, the less deposits there are in that love bank of yours.

Now what in the world does this mean?

"I just want to call him up and say I'm out. You've won."

He has won the divorce? He has won you AND the OW and life continues as it was with your blessing? Please tell what he has won?

Sometimes jumping to Plan DIVORCE is the shock and awe that will snap the cake-eating fence-sitting WW's out of it. YOU MAKE THEM FINALLY CHOOSE! Just because he gets served with divorce papers does not mean anyone has to sign anything. And if he goes ahead and signs them...well...then you know.

In one post you said something like "the only EN he will be missing is the financial one".

Does this mean you have been funding the cake-eating fence sitter lifestyle?

One more thought concerning your analyzing anxiety. Anti depressants may help your mind stop spinning out of control. They make this roller coaster less extreme and help you get through the day, and let you enjoy the plan B without the thoughts.

IMHO

kirk

Krusht- Thanks..I needed that. I do over analyze it. I wish I could just put it out of my head. It's hard. Sometimes I wish I never found this site. I think I would have just said "see ya" but the more I read the more hope I had to recover our marriage. How do you move on from overthinking everything to letting it go?

I assume based on your post that you believe he's fence sitting/cake eating. What is the difference? Are these types of affairs easier to break up because the wayward spouse hasn't really left the marriage completley or not necessarily.

Puppy,

Cake eating = fence sitting

Same thing.

For a cake eater, the Plan A fits right into their CE/FS plan. So the cake eater is getting treated great by the spouse and also pursues the OP. The cake eater is in 7th heaven!

Plan B screws up the scenario. Plan D, makes them finally decide which way to jump off the fence.

I don't know if they are harder to break up. Exposure is required to break things up. Like to OW's spouse, your kids, anyone that has influence over the cake sitter/fence eater.

kirk

Krusht-
He was very happy when I was in Plan A. Not so happy looking in Plan B. He did leave other woman and move home for about 12 weeks then left again. Doesn't seem as happy this go around but who knows. I have exposed, embarrasses him but really hasn't done anything else. Just makes him uncomfortable around some people. His family doesn't live nearby. The other womans husband pretty much dumped here. Can't say i blame him since she had an affair with him then married him. Yes, she can only get married men going through a crisis!!!!!!

Is it true that if a spouse comes home then returns to the lover that they experience a great deal of depression? Not right away but later? Is it because of their inability to choose one? I read that in Harley's book. I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to help expedite his decision. At this point I'm in Plan B but it feels like I'm doing nothing and letting him go ahead and have an affair. I'm trying to think less about him and I plan to have a wonderful holiday weekend. Still, my patience is wearing out.

Puppy,

You have been in plan B how long? A week or two...if that?

Plan B is kind of for an indefinite period of time. And again it is more for your well being than waiting and hoping (on pins and needles) that cake eating fence sitting WH will suddenly see the light and come running home to you. Might take a couple months. There are people here in the halls of MB that have been in plan B a year or more.

Plan B is not for the impatient.

Plan DIVORCE is more for the impatient people. Your impatience is not helping your sitch.

But now that you have given the CEFS WH the plan B letter, you can't really go back to the plan A mode, right?

Stick with Plan B, concentrate on yourself and making you happy and maybe he will fade from the forefront of your brain, slipping to vagueness. (or something like that )

IMHO

kirk

Krusht- Thanks for replying. I haven't been in Plan B very long. I know it takes time. Anyone know about Dobson's book? I'm seeing a counselor next week who suggested I read the book. She says I need to knock him off his fence. That I have allowed this disrespect for way too long. I agree. According to her Dobson's plan sounds a bit different than Plan b. Any input??

Update. After about a week of being really down, I woke up today feeling really good. For some reason I feel so empowered. I feel like I hold all the cards in our situation. I can leave this marriage whenever I want. He obviously does not want to leave it or he would have two years ago. I'm sure I was meeting some of his needs. I'm not anymore and it feels good not to have to deal with him and his indecision.

I hope this lasts and is not just a good day. I think I feel more empowered because for once I'm not sure if I want him back. I love my husband but not the person he has become. I don't want that person back, and you know what...it feels great. I can do better than that and I deserve to be treated better than that. And if he doesn't watch it someone may just come along and snatch me up.

Puppy,

"I hope this lasts and is not just a good day. I think I feel more empowered because for once I'm not sure if I want him back."

Now you're talkin'!

What you are feeling is the empowerment of disengagement. Where you can "take him or leave him". This is a very important step and has been brought up on numerous threads. You do not have that panic and feeling of despair because you realize he is not the center of the universe and you can be VERY happy without him.

Much of your being "really down" is from the stress and anxiety of contact with him and dealing with his selfish fogbabbling bullpoop. Plan B keeps him and his MANIPULATIONS away from you.

Stay very dark and avoid contact at all costs to keep this feeling alive.

Stay strong, eat right, exercise, get plenty of sleep, start a hobby, go shopping...etc.

kirk

Thanks Krusht! Still going strong. I'm looking forward to the long weekend. I need some advice from anyone interested in helping me. My counselor suggested that I set a deadline and inform my husband at that time I will file for divorce if he has not contacted me regarding recomciliation. At this time he is still involved with the other woman. He asked me to wait a few months just to see. (I have no idea what he means..I am assuming he didn't want me to file for divorce just yet, as that is what we were talking about). The counselor suggested that I not contact him during that time then if he does not respond then file. She said at least I would know that he wasn't interested enough to save our marriage. she also told me that I needed to tell the children everything. I have never told them about the affair just that dad needs some time to sort through his feelings. I was hoping to spare them the lifelong pain that will happen if I tell them. I waited as before my husband would always say he didn't want a divorce. He just needed time.

I may be wrong, but from what I understand, you should never issue ultimatiums. You've already told him what you require in your Plan B letter, right? Contacting him to give him an ultimatium just makes you look like you're trying to force his hand.

Are you really ready to file if he doesn't meet your demand? Cause if you do this and you don't follow through, your Plan B letter means nothing.

I think you should stick with Plan B, staying very very dark, no contact AT ALL. Give yourself some time to figure out what it is you really want. This will change day to day early in Plan B. After awhile, when you have "disengaged" completely and you can truly KNOW where you stand, THEN you make your decision whether to D or not. Giving him advance warning that you're going to file isn't necessary. You just do it because it's what YOU want.

Princessmeggy-HELP Anyone else welcome to comment as well. In another post I was told that Plan B was an ultimatum. I was really clear on my plan until I saw my counselor and she suggested to give him a time frame then tell him that I will file for divorce he doesn't choose to leave the other woman and commit to the marriage. She suggested two months but was up to me. Then she suggested Dobsons book which seems close to Plan B but says that I need to create a crisis or he may never decide. Am I wrong? Is Plan B itself enough to create a crisis in his life. From what I could tell the book made it seem like I wouldn't be waiting 6 months or so for him to make a decision. From what I read in SAA Plan B can last as long as 18 months if you choose. My other concern is that Dobsons book makes it seem like the longer the other woman and my husband are involved with each other the more they will bond so to speak. This is giving me a sense of I need to hurry up and do something quick or I will lose the opportunity to save my marriage. SAA says that most affairs burn out on their own. Why does one say they will bond and one say it's more likely that the affair will burn out if left alone. That's where my confusion is. Do I hurry up and do something or be patient and see what happens?