I was feeling lonely, so I thought "hey, I can be vulnerable to people that don't really know me"

Lets see... things are not better. At all really. Frozen and I have turned ourselves into marriage martyrs I guess. Sticking in there no matter how bad it is.

I have learned quite a lot about myself however.

Why did I have an affair? Because I wanted the cheap sex and because I felt like it. I was not attached to Frozen, because I didn't allow myself to get close to anyone. There is nothing wrong with her... but there was with me. Emotionally unavailable, equating sex to love and approval, I was a dangerous person to have a relationship with. It isn't pretty, but it's honest. Probably why it's ugly. Thought getting sex off some woman at work with low morals would be cool. My morals matched, so we hooked up. It is really stupid and I regret it. More than anything I have ever regreted.

Any time I watch a movie, see a couple, hear a love song, read a story about infidelity, or just about anything I am reminded about this huge betrayal and how much damage it has caused. I had no attachment at all to OW, which seems to make it worse. Like at least I could have thrown it all away caring for something but I threw it all away for nothing.

I am not going to live in this mistake. I made a mistake, a terrible series of choices and that is that. I won't ever forget, but I am not going to live under the thumb of this mistake. I have forgiven myself for this and if that is not ok, oh well.

I learned that I played parent/child with Frozen for approval. Her being the parent. It looks really stupid actually. I behaved that way for approval. I don't need the approval. Not given in the way I was trying to get it. If she genuinely wishes to give it, then great. I will not be waiting around for it. Pursuing it. None of that because it has been what I have done that has been part of failure.

I learned that you give your wife access to emails.

I learned that you don't give the 'look' of inpropriety, becasue that is just as good as guilty.

I learned that when you behave like a child, you get treated like one. And no woman can or will respect a child.

I learned that reading these forums was part of the problem.

I learned that Kimberly is an excellent counselor.

I learned that I am responsible for the choices I make, even the ones I don't like the outcome for.

I learned I could communicate a point and do it without yelling or intimidation.

I learned that what you think something looks like.. probably is what it is, playing simple odds.

I learned several things.

Some things I didn't want to know. I could have done with out them. Ignorance was bliss.

I hope the folks I used to mingle with around here are doing well. All of them.

My shrink buddy says:

You are who you are. You may hate some of the things in life that molded you, but there is no reset button. Accept that you cannot change the past, only the future. Be the best person you can be so long as you are not a jerk. Would you want to be hooked up with you? If the answer is yes, then laugh, love and get on down the road of life.

Hi Patriot. Your list looks centered to me.

Larry

Interesting thought, Patriot.

What "problem" are you referring to and how did you perceive reading these forums was a part of that problem?

I have my suspicions, but I'd like to hear your explanation and expansion of that statement.


God bless.

I do not really know you patriot although i have read some of you and Frozen's sitch but i would like to say that it seems like you have learned a lot.

If you have learned so much why are you still stuck?

Being a BS i can tell you that it is really hard for us (just as reading your post it is hard for you as well). I QUESTION EVERYTHING in our relationship now. Things i never questioned before. I think the WORST of every situation instead of the BEST (which is what i did pre-A). Infidelity is just an ugly ugly ugly thing.

I don't know but maybe after the last set back it is going to take Frozen a long time before she FORGIVES you.

Larry,
maybe the list is centered. It has taken me far too long to grow this little bit. I wish all the time that I had been where I am at now 8 years ago. It would be a totally different outcome. That said, it isn't. And wishing for the past to go away is about as fruitful as me going to the lottery commission and demanding 100 million dollars.

and as they say... "slim just left town..."

FH,
There are several reasons I said that. You having your suspicions could possibly mean this is a trap, but I will be forthcoming and whatever will be will be.

I think that reading these forums is extremely helpful to the "just found out" crowd, but there comes a time when it begins to feel like Jerry Springer around here and many of our fellow posters are simply the audience members.

I have seen high school like behavior with people in cliques like there is some feudal system here. There isn't, and high school was over for most around here quite some time ago.

I think MB is a plan for life, but I think these infidelity forums are a stop on the road, not a place to make home. Get in here, get what you need and pass some around, and then get out. I think it becomes very easy to live in the past around here.

My heart hurts for the people that post in such dire need, behaving as though the end of their world has just occured. What bothers me more is a cry for help answered with bickering amongst 'veterans' about ideology, perception or the weather. On one hand, you hear "its not about you!", but on the other hand, the person screaming this is making it about them.

I think of all the times I was truly angry about what someone posted here and the times I replied in exactly the way I detest. I agree that you don't legislate posting styles, but that certainly doesn't mean you have to agree with people. I think about all the time I wasted stewing over some post here when I could have been doing something far more productive. Like talking with my wife. Meeting an EN or two.

The fact is that I gained a ton a valuable information coming to this site, but participating in the forum has been a mixed bag, for me. As a FWS, I really do appreciate the things I have read from people here... polite or otherwise. I have learned some things and changed some core behaviors.

At the center, my remark about reading the forum being seen as part of the problem, a more well thought out analogy is this. These forums are like chemo for cancer patients(WS). Sometimes it takes. Sometimes it doesn't. It does you some good, but it also does you some bad. As such, it is not something you participate in indefinitely. Without careful supervision from the DR., it is possible that the treatment becomes the poison...

Thats how I see it. I think there is plenty of value here. I really like the program and when I have followed it, things have been good.

I think it is sometimes easier to follow the program when you get your advice from the designer of the program and his staff rather than another person basically in the same boat as you.

And God Bless you FH.

This sentence made me wince and my heart break for Froz:


Because I don't see the bolded part has changed. The root cause of why you had an affair is that you avoid intimacy - you know, that true vulnerability that would allow Froz to have a few choices about your relationship? The kind of vulnerability where you aren't in control all the time? The kind of intimacy that lifts Froz and focuses on joyful service to the emotional needs of your partner?

No - you reduce it to an intellectual exercise - you want to figure it out, rather than feel through it and work that muscle you so protect from having to do any work.

Right now, you only see the cheating as bad. But until Kimberly helps you understand the intimacy avoidance/controlling behavior part you will never truly be safe from cheating again. If she has not identified this issue and put you through a process of FEELING rather than thinking, she's not the therapist who can help you.

Please re-read the part you wrote that I have highlighted in bold. Because you are still a dangerous person to have a relationship with - yet nothing changes except surrendering to an unfulfilling marriage for both of you.

How very sad. You won't surrender the one thing that could transform your life - the fear of intimacy/vulnerability.

I offer you this one response; because you deserve to know where the block is within yourself. However, if you are true to form, the intellectual jousting is just about to begin - and I won't participate. All that I can offer you is in this one response.

Pat can speak for himself but I'm wondering how come you say this. Just by him being able to NAME and IDENTIFY his intimacy problems is GREAT, IMO.

I'm really struck by Pat's concerns/questions about the forum. Why would WE as AMATEURS know him better than Kimberly, whom it seems is his MBers' therapist who has gotten to know both of them INTIMATELY?


MAYBE he CANNOT change this. I admire him for the CHANGES that he has made in this regard.

Mimi- naming the game is still an intellectual exercise.

If he really had identified and decided to address the intimacy problems it would be Froz that would be posting here about how wonderful things are and how much Pat has changed. The fact that he's talking about how much he's changed is meaningless. It has to be reflected in her eyes.

The silence is deafening.

And yes, I'm an amateur compared to a licensed pro that can charge for her expertise - a trained volunteer with experience in the dysfunctions that manifest themselves in the avoidance of intimacy.

Kimberly may be a licensed professional. But Pat is posting here; not Froz. And Pat is posting about being a martyr in his marriage. That's telling me that Kimberly is NOT the big help he claims. It also tells me that Pat has effectively silenced Froz from seeking any further help. That's the depth and breadth of Kimberly's influence on Pat.

I'm looking beyond Pat's words for evidence of change. But the first sentence in his post - the martyrdom sentence tells that his actions are not reflecting any "change" in his behavior or his heart.

How do you know it's not reflected in her eyes. Maybe she has chosen NOT to post here.


Do you know this FOR SURE? This is an incredible indictment AGAINST Kimberly who is highly respected.


What else can we have except WORDS on a forum? I'm confused..

Then, "By All Means", follow it!



Then start working with the designers. They are available!

Sad statment, Pat. We can't do anything for you except type out what we think, which seems to be the one thing you DON'T want, judging from the remainder of your post.

You have a perfectly good specimen of a wife to be vulnerable to, yet you come here. It is sad. We don't know you, and have nothing vested in your life, but your wife does, yet you come here, to a blank page, with flat script, and no real sustenance. Your wife has those things, and can provide the best counsel you could possibly get, yet you come here.

It all just reads like attention seeking.

I understand Pat's FEAR OF INTIMACY.

It is a PAINFUL and DIFFICULT problem for those of us who have been HURT terribly throughout our lives.

Maybe that's why I come here so often.

I can't speak for him but coming here and sharing does not mean that he does not share with his wife.

It means that it is DIFFICULT for him..DIFFICULT is not a strong enough word for what I am saying.

All too often I have been VULNERABLE and OPEN to others and WOUNDED...

You see, maybe too much information for a FORUM but easier to say here than to someone IRL.

I appreciate HIS honesty.

I think LOTS of people do this by coming to a forum.

Mimi - contrast the recovery of Mrs. W and Mr. W who both post here to Pat and Froz. Or any other couple who both post here who have recovered and haven't surrendered the quality of their marriage to hopelessness.

Let's wait and see if Froz comes back. Her silence is an indictment on the quality of Pat's recovery and change. That's how we go beyond words here. I've been watching for posts from Froz for quite some time.

Kimberly may be very well respected and not deserve any disrespect from me. I'm simply stating that Pat thinks she's great - but if she's allowing his indulgence in fear-based behaviors, she's missing something. If Pat is simply hiding those aspects of his character from her, then he's not allowing her to help him as much as she is probably qualified to help him.

Pat's history of intellectually quantifying and qualifying his problems without getting to the roots is apparent in his threads dating back years now. Have you read them?

IMO, Pat should be accepted for who HE is.

This is HIS WALK in LIFE..this is HIS JOURNEY..not for us to JUDGE.

Maybe Froz does not CHOOSE to come here any longer.

Pat,

You said that when you cheated that you were"not attached to Froz". How about now? Do you feel attached to her NOW or do you feel the same way? And what is different if you ARE attached?

Blessings,
WH2LE

Some folks are like this..

Some folks just can't be or are not PSYCHOLOGICALLY-MINDED...

I agree with you, Mimi ,that many people come here when they are lonely. I came here when PWC was not resonding to me in any way, shape or form. I came to get advice and to have someone from the outside tell me that I wasn't CRAZY for feeling so alone.

THAT is why I said it's sad. PWC had a wife who wanted nothing more than to connect, and he wouldn't. HE COULD, but he wouldn't. I know that it is tough to bear that underbelly, because I did it over and over again.

SC – learning so much and things getting better don’t seem to be linked all the time. The truth is the mistakes I made since DDay are the real clincher and reason why things are not better. I ruined some ways for things to be recovered by injecting doubt into ways recovery could happen. Like transparency. I ended up lying about whereabouts in order to stay out of trouble and from that, me reporting where I am is useless. Transparency could have been access to emails and phonecalls discussing locations. I ruined that… so those idea no longer work. If I call now and inform her of where I am at, it does no good because I could be lying… as I had in the past. There is no fix for that. In short, the past is inerasable and seems to have a firm grip on the future. I wish it didn’t. That is does is not up to me and is out of my control. She can trust me because I know I can be trusted, but she won’t trust me because I made mistake after mistake in this area. I fully understand her stance on this, but understanding doesn’t produce a solution here.

KA – you said quite a lot. How do you feel your way through? How did you? You are an FWS right? What did you do to be so successful? I don’t feel the same as the remarks in bold now. Sex does not equal anything other than a physical act that CAN be a representation of one’s feelings for another. Love and approval… acceptance and care can be provided without sex ever existing. Giving yourself away is a tragedy, because you travel the road to self-destruction indulging your fantasies. And lying to yourself. I know that now. Do I sound like a robot? I have to. You are not the first person to call me emotionally unavailable. I am looking at me and still unable to find the thing that is the problem. Using the term martyr was a metaphor, not a definition. The truth is we both live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, have sex occasionally, participate in RC from time to time, and politely say hello to one another. Some days. The conversations are limited and strained. The decisiveness in the house is mostly gone. The floor is covered with eggshells. The fingers are all pointed at me. They should be for the betrayal. I am responsible for that, no doubt. But I am not responsible for Frozen’s previous baggage any more than she is responsible for mine. We have tons of that baggage. Both of us. Anyway.. I don’t really know what to say but I would like to understand the emotional part of this subject. Isn’t being vulnerable talking to people and facing your failure? Isn’t it being present to say “you know what… things are bad in our relationship and I started this mess” Isn’t it honest when I say I feel lonely and sad about the past I can not change? I know what I did to Frozen. She has feelings about it ranging from anger to despair. I understand why. I would feel these things too… I would like to understand… but I have said that for years now and I still don’t get it, I guess. Emotionally unavailable. I don’t even know how I am doing that now.

SL – I spent time talking to her last night. In fact I was trying to schedule her time with me. 15 hours. And that is a rare thing, because I do hide as a rule from emotional conflict. I came out last night and tried to schedule the 15 hours. Didn’t go great but we have some walks planned. But I don’t blame her. I spent a long time not doing much that she wanted, or rather was called for by simply following MB, and doing what I thought was good enough, being stubborn and ignorant. So I will keep trying with it in my mind that I have reinforced this response from her for years. I have a lot to overcome. Oh.. attention wasn’t what I wanted. Understanding myself and getting me out was what I wanted.

WH2LE – I am more attached to Frozen then before, but we still have big walls. The biggest difference is I don’t like the walls being there. I used to not care … in fact the walls enabled me. I want the intimacy. I don’t want to continue being separate and walled off. I want togetherness and closeness. I did many things to sabotage that. I don’t know if she can forgive me the wreckage I caused after the affair came to light. I admit, it is a ton to ask forgiveness for. I certainly don’t deserve it. But I would like to get it.

Mimi – Hi. Thanks for your perspective.

IMO, for what it's worth, I believe you doing the do, scheduling the time, no matter how hard it is, and then following through can go a long way. It's going to take massive amounts of TIME, and CONSISTENCY to get back to intimacy.

You know the drill. Follow the rules, like they are tattooed on your brain, even if you aren't seeing instant results, even if Frozen isn't into it, EVEN if you THINK you may end up divorced. Stop looking at some end result, because it never ends. Look to a better existence, where you take joy in scheduling that time. Marriage building never ends. If you aren't tough enough to deal with that, then it's not going to work.

Consider that the last lie was another Dday, and you are back at square one, back at the beginning. Begin again.

I wish I couldn't relate to your sitch, but I can. My WH wasn't interested in connecting at all. Every minute of every day was painful. Rejection over and over and over again. I wasn't in love, he wasn't in love, and I had no idea how we would ever get there again. I don't know if it would have worked out, but it would have gone a long way if he had taken the initiative to get things going. I tried to reach him, day in, day out. I gave up.

The thing is I think you are A ZILLION TIMES more OPEN than MY HUSBAND EVER would be on a PUBLIC FORUM.

My goodness...ALL THAT..that you posted...WOW...

And we are VERY HAPPILY RECOVERED...

That's why my perspective is different than others...

Pat:

Is this your White flag of surrender?

You can't SAY IT to Froz, but you can write it HERE?

Maybe, she isn't posting, but she still reads? or Might read?

Many times I have prerused you and Froz's threads and just got the sense that niether of you is willing to move an inch, or accept that the other has moved an inch.

After Dday, and after discovering MB, if I had remained the same as I was before, I would be divorced now.

If Flamingo had stayed the same as she was pre MB and Dday, we would be divorced now.

There are NO eggshells in our house. Are there issues to be dealt with? Yes. Am I careful, and more considerate? Yes. But I talk to Flamingo now. I used to walk away, bottle it up, and not talk to Flamingo. That didn't work that well. I accept Flamingo for who she is, I just tell her how I feel about something now, and so does she. We work together.

You can too. You stated that when you do MB things, your R is better. So do more MB things. Own your stuff. Froz can own hers. If you do the MB things, and try to work with her, and do it consistently, then your M will improve. You might have dynamited the fields of land between you two, by not being honest, but if you practice MB, practice MB, and practice MB, then FROZ will recognize that changed and improved behavior and respond accordingly.

And if she doesn't, then you can make a choice too.

She can own her own stuff.

LG

Pat, this is unsettling to me and I feel it's due to the last two words. "OH WELL"

They are hurtful words that echo like "WHO CARES" or like "IT'S NOBODY ELSES BUSINESS" or like "GET OVER IT". These two words remind me of the selfishness of MY wayward attitude, MY Taker.


Could this be your stumbling block?
I know if I ever said those two words to my W she would withdraw from me so very quickly.

Tst:

Are you picking on Pat?

OH WELL is just a slang..I'll let him speak for himself but I READ that he doesn't know what else he can say...

The man poured his heart out..

I'm not getting this...

Pat,

I'm not slamming you. But I am wondering if you can see this is how you begin much of what you have to say???

A lot of "I THINK" statements or "I KNOW" statements.
These statements do not make you vulnerable, they are actually statements to educate the listener......

I'm curious if this is your communication style with Frozen???

TST:

How do YOU know how Frozen wants him to communicate?

Frozen might prefer a different style than your wife does.

Those statements sound FINE to ME.

I LOVE for my H to share what he is THINKING...

He's so BRILLIANT..it's usually AWESOME..

He has a difficult time talking about his FEELINGS and that's OK with me..

HIS ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN HIS WORDS ABOUT HIS FEELINGS...

He's not a touchy-feely kinda guy and will tell you so..and feels OK about that and I do too...

NO

I don't know, TST.

You seem to be coming out of YOUR OWN frame of reference.

Are you ACCEPTING that PAT could be DIFFERENT?

There's lots of folks who are not psychologically-minded.

Goodness MIMI,

Pat's been around these boards for well over 3 years, I think he is keen enough to know I am not picking a fight.

I didn't say you were picking a fight.

I was encouraging YOU to take a look at yourself.

I'm not understanding what you are doing or saying.

My question is to YOU.

Of course, YOU don't have to answer.

Ok. I did ask if you are PICKING ON him?

Better stated, I'm not getting where you are coming from.

Maybe Pat does.

Hey, Patriot...

Here's some stuff I think you already know...reminders I saw, 'k?


Do it anyway.

Do transparency for you. As you mentioned, hard not to look for an outcome...so focus on your actions.

Fear of intimacy is real, it's common, and it's persistent.

Act anyway.

Each time you hear in your head "Won't do any good; does no good" take that as a signal of where your focus is...where you have no control. Do what you do because of your own code, anyway.

I believe you want an intimate marriage.

Know and hold your fear and act intimately. Teaches your fear that's old, outdated...that you already are safe. Fear decreases.

You make your experience...choose your intent. You intend SF to be intimate, sharing, loving, representing appreciation, acceptance...whatever it is to you...then know it and state it. Will aid you in amending the past...within your control.

You are emotional...you may make yourself unavailable. Choose to see that as ACTING from your fear, not your love. You are a loving individual, made from love...learning to act from it is what we all learn to do and often struggle with.

Don't choose eggshells...more reactivity from fear. Respect and trust Froz...and yourself. Work on your own self-forgiveness, as well...because you have a lot of amends to your self to do...acting from intimacy is a great way to get there, to your own healing, too.

When you practice acting from love...for instance, when you feel distant or disconnected from Froz...reach out with your hand...touch hers...even if you aren't feeling connected...and you will feel connected again. Close. Together. Allies.

And about baggage...we work ours out side by side...and we do it together. Part of the respect package...doesn't mean you take out anything on her...if that's an urge, then get the signal that means you're seeing her as the cause...which can be overlap, from long ago. Correct your perspective. Talk about it with her...share.

A constant threat to our fear of intimacy is to be forgiven so much...hard to contain...to understand and grasp...to be loved anyway can feel terrifying. Understand that we can't deserve forgiveness...and we can experience it, anyway.

Gift of life.

LA

MIMI,

It is obvious to me that you have an AWSOME marriage today. And I draw strength from you because of this.

It is also obvious to me that Pat's is still broken and I believe HE started this thread for discussion and help.
Sooo, I'm asking questions......

Mimi,
You are a fiery sort and I like you. I appreciate your support.

tst,


ah... something to learn. I will tell you exactly what 'I think'(pun intended)

I thought they DID make me vulnerable. It is information about me. Insight into my beliefs. Insight into how I think. ANd further, it is solely about the one person on whom I am expert... me. Instead of me trying to guess at someone elses motives, desires or meanings, am I only talking about me. The person I can control. The person that I have to live with no matter what happens. Me. The discussion is about what is inside my boundaries... so because I was talking about it, YES, I thought I was being vulnerable. Giving away information about me. It certainly seemed much more protecting of me to simply keep the cards close to the vest...but I didn't... I thought.

So you assert that they do NOT make me vulnerable. Great! What would? What statements would? How would you word a statement in order to be vulnerable? I made my argumnet above for my way. Maybe all this time I have done it all wrong. Trust me, this would not be the first time that happened.

If the way I am talking is not a vulnerable method, I am totally not seeing it.

mimi,
I hope I say this as softly as possible. I really appreciate your support and I think a lot of you, but I don't feel attacked here and I feel safe enough to speak up. Again, I really appreciate your support. I hope you are doing really well. I think I will be ok 'fighting' with tst... lol.

please take care of yourself and tell your husband hi from some random guy from the internet.

I've GAINED my POV from reading TONY ROBBINS, BTW.."Awaken the Giant Within" and "Unlimited Power"..

Tony teaches learning to respect each others different WAYS OF BEING..different COMMUNICATION STYLES..all of us are UNIQUE...

I'll leave it to you, Pat..CARRY ON..

This is bothering ME for some reason...

Not sure why...

I guess your way sounds a lot like my H's..

Perhaps better in fact...

I mean, I couldn't IMAGINE him posting on a FORUM..

WOW, I admire and respect THAT VULNERABILITY about YOU...

Mimi,

It sounds like you are taking Pat's plight PERSONALLY. No need. He's posting, and he seems like he's up to the questions.

I agree with LG, and LA on this. I don't need to get into anybody's pysche. Do the MB principles, as best YOU can, regardless of what your partner is doing. You are doing them for yourself as well as your mate. You both benefit.

Unless you are a sociopath, these plans should work for your marriage, even with/without PA tendencies and behaviors, so long as you choose to do them day to day, minute to minute. You can work on yourself simultaneously. IMO, it's all about going thru the motions, until the feelings emerge, and then continuing thru the motions to KEEP thos feelings.

I'm not talking about Frozen here, I'm talking to Patriot about what Patriot can do. I don't have time to psychoanalyze Patriot, and I'm not knowledgeable to do that. I am a BS, who knows what she would want from her WS in order to trust again, and live in the now, as opposed to the past. Alot of O&H, feelign the fear and doing it anyway.

Maybe i am wrong here but i think that is what Patriot should be doing (using "I" statements instead of "you" statements) isn't it?

Yes, I agree that "I" statements are better than "you" statements.


Let me clarify (hopefully) what I was attempting to say;

For me, when I am trying to be vulnerable with my wife, "I FEEL" statements help more than "I think" in these conversation.

One of the LB's I was frequently quilty of with my wife was "DJ's", in the form of educating her, by using "I think" or "I know" type of statements..... Not tring to say this is an issue for Pat, but I was curious about his style and if Pat ever noticed this in his marriage.

Okay Patriot, let's spend a couple of minutes on your questions here.

"Isn’t being vulnerable talking to people and facing your failure?"

No it isn't. It's information exchange at best. IF you mean acknowledging you WERE a WS, that is a factual statement and not "facing your failure." Facing your failure is to IMPLEMENT change that moves you in a better direction, toward what you want the "new and improved you" to be.


"Isn’t it being present to say “you know what… things are bad in our relationship and I started this mess”"

Being "present" is just that, being present in the marriage. It is not being vulnerable. Choosing to stay in the marriage rather than divorce is a positive step, obviously, in beginning to recover, but you can be "married roommates" for the rest of your life and "present," but it's not vulnerable and it's not, imho, a "good marriage" that results in a "one flesh" marriage.


"Isn’t it honest when I say I feel lonely and sad about the past I can not change?"

Yes it's honest. So what? I'm quite certain that Froz also feels lonely and sad about the past that she cannot change either.

And you are both right. Neither one of you can change the past. But you CAN change TODAY, and in so doing, change each TODAY that is in the future.


"I would like to understand… but I have said that for years now and I still don’t get it, I guess. Emotionally unavailable. I don’t even know how I am doing that now."

You are only "emotionally unavailable" because you choose to be, not because you "must be."

That IS the "problem" isn't it?

You, as well as Froz, have erected barriers, "walls" if you will, to your emotions and your reactions to them in order to "protect yourself," isn't that right?

Letting them down means not only that you COULD get hurt, but that you likely WILL get hurt at some point.

What seems to be missing as a "key ingredient" is TRUST. I may be wrong, but I don't hear much in the way of trust by either of you, at least not trust in a "positive" way. Plenty of negative trust, but that's "expecting the worst" and keeps giving an excuse to keep the walls of protection up.



And this, Patriot, pretty much sums up the "problem" with the vulnerability issue you have "struggled" with.

This is perhaps a true statement if you were single. But you are NOT single, you are married. The person you "live with no matter what" is your wife, not you. Think about it.

What you are saying in this statement is that YOU are the most important thing in your life. There is no "living with God" and there is no "living with Froz." There is only YOU.

You want to be vulnerable and have the emotional connection?

Then understand that the "you" dies in a marriage and becomes the servant of your spouse. HER "best interests" supercede yours, and her "best interests" are subordinated to being YOUR servant. You serve each other as helpmeet and completer.

It's just like love, Patriot, you DO for the other, they feel loved, and they respond in kind, and the cycle continues and escalates. Love never fails. Lack of love fails all the time.


God bless.

Mimi - I'm a bit confused by your strong defense of Pat when you are so very hard on the recovering waywards in other cases. You talk about extraordinary measures, yet you don't see through the lack of those in Pat's case.

Sorry - I reserve the right to be skeptical.

Pat - I encourage you to go deeper in your recovery. You can have all the right answers and still be wrong in the heart.

These questions get to the heart of the matter:

1. Does your wife FEEL loved, precious, adored and otherwise totally appreciated by you? If not, why not? What more needs to be done?

2. Does your wife FEEL safe, protected, that you take extraordinary precautions to protect the marriage consistently when no one is watching? Without expecting lavish praise for doing what should have been able to be taken for granted? If not, why not? What more needs to be done?

3. Do you try to "control" your wife's feelings, thoughts, etc. out of fear that if you don't, and she's left to her own choices, she'd leave you in a heartbeat? If so, you have nothing left to lose because she's already gone in her heart - so step into a risk of letting go of control...

4. Are you afraid of your wife retaliating on you? What defects of character lie deep within you that make you think she'd betray her own soul to get even? Please resolve those on your path to healing your marriage - or at least your own soul.

5. Who do you trust? why? What makes them trustworthy? Do you trust Froz? What do you trust her with? Do you dare to have a vulnerable, feeling conversation with her, unrehearsed, spontaneous where she can tell you are sincere and she can share with you sincerely how she feels? What would need to change within you to have this happen?

These are just the first questions I can think of. But this is plenty for now.

Keep in mind Pat - I've been through marriage with someone who had all the right words but his soul was wounded. He has earned my trust. I've watched this process happen several times. But not every time was victorious; I have watched people hang on to their pride and "their way" of being to the death. Mimi says you are who you are and that can't change. I say for your own happiness it MUST change.

I wasn't saying that he CAN'T CHANGE into being a BETTER HUSBAND OR PERSON...

I was referring specifically to his COMMUNICATION STYLE...

Sorry if that was not clearer...

FH,


I don't agree. That is DOING something about your failure. Facing it, to me, is simply recognizing it and not ignoring it. It is the difference between yes I did and no I did not. When youa re honest with yourself, you face something. That is my take

When you do something to change... you are doing something. All side phrases and hidden meanings aside... facing it is facing it. There it is. I did it. Doing something about it is different. That would be doing something about it.

The explanation, or defense if you see it that way, is to explain my behavior. That is how I see it. So that is how I behave. And that is why I respond the way I do. I did face it.

Doing something about it I fell short on



sure.. and I don't want to be married roommates.no argument here.


well around here, honesty is a pretty important thing to be getting because of the amount of dishonesty that existed. So thats what. And I bet she does feel that way.

yes.. we both have walls. thats true.

correct.. there is no trust. None from her to me. Not much from me to her either.



and now the confusion is exposed. Maybe I am the dumbest man alive today, but the remark was made from the angle of the only person I can control is me the only person I have sway over is me and so on. Instead of trying to control her or step on her property, I am trying to stay on mine. But then I say something that reflects what I am trying to do and this happens. Someone calls me out on how much of a stupid error that is and no wonder I am failing. Don't you see patriot???

NO... I don't. I don't see the FINE line between the selfishness of "me, me , me" and the selflessness of "me, me ,me"

lets see if I can frame that. If I only care about me, then I am selfish. If I only focus on me, I am not? If I only worry about me, I am selfish. If I only worry for me, am I not? No... I fully do not understand the "you can only control yourself" line on one side and then the "the only thing you worry about is yourself" on the other.

I continue to get told I am controlling. From where I sit, I don't have control of jack. "That's because I took the control back from you". um.. I didn't think I had control before either, but thanks for saying that to me in such a non-polite way, dear.

You always win!

um.. I sure don't feel like it

I can't even address all the points made here with anything coherent... I don't like being hurt. I don't like putting my heart out for people to stomp on. is that the core problem? I should step in front of a train once? Maybe a lot?


I feel totally confused. Now was probably not a good time to reply.

here is what I would like to ask. Of you FH.

I made remarks about vulnerability. You said NO to each one. I did not catch where you told me vulnerability looks like this...

was it there and I missed it? I usually do, so where was it.

I am sure this all sounds defensive... but the true emotion here is frustration. Utter debilitating frustration.

No matter what I try or don't, it is always the same result.

I have a few things to read... I am in an uptight mood right now and again, now was probably not a good time to post

I will probably have to come back and edit all this crap

Good question. But to clarify - I'm a betrayed spouse, not a former wayward.

What did I do to be so successful? I'm not "there" yet; but I'm a work in process. I consider my greatest success was to learn to let my husband be himself. I put his recovery in God's hands (had a very good therapist give me a verbal smack down about getting in God's way).

I'm what you'd call a formerly scared-to-feel control freak. I'm also married into a family of unemotional intellectual jousters, which is why I gave the warning that I did.

I studied. I tried to figure it out. I went to group therapy for children of alcoholics - in a setting that played Claudia Black's "Stamp Game" - it's a therapeutic "game" where you draw a card that has a specific color and label/emotion on it. You then talk through what in your life reflects that color and that emotion. I found myself emotionally "inhibited" in this process. Thank heaven I didn't have the internet back then - because the internet reduces everything to words - which is an escape from feeling and processing the real feelings. The YUCK at the bottom of that emotional pit that I'm not going anywhere near... You know that place/that feeling?

Instead I went into a process with this group and an extended group, that used music, motion, thinking, feeling, crying, screaming, and whatever was needed to recognize the feelings that kept my voice locked in my throat, and my heart aloof from everything. I felt sometimes like there was a drill sargent in my face confronting me about my isolation, or my neighbor about her adherence to religious tradition without having the heart of that faith in her... I died in that room in a sense. But for the first time, I started to live. And I'm still learning to live and feel. I constantly put myself into experiences that require that I be vulnerable to a new feeling or awareness of myself. I even answered a radio ad that started out "this class is not for wimps" because at the time in that profession I saw myself as a wimp.

Pat - you can't do this kind of emotional work on this board - but Kim can get you into the right kind of place to do it or she can refer you into whatever setting that can. But it takes years of work.

Who knows what the future will bring? We can't go bury our spouse in the ground for fear that we will lose them. That only guarantees we will get what we fear the most.

If you've read Kasey and my recovery story in it's many pieces you will find that I left Kasey - for several months. And every time we met in our minister's office, Kasey would spell out all the conditions I had to meet in order to come home, as if he were in charge of my staying away... I'd just say "I don't need to be married that badly". Eventually he got it - I was gone. And instead of trying to coerce me to come back, he started asking what my conditions were to take him back. And he worked on it, with all sincerity. He even went through that emotionally scary fire that I went through - drill sargent and all just to deal with his own escapes. And he continues to show he loves me by being vulnerable to life, to me, to growth opportunities (pain), etc.

Please consider I was just as wounded as I could be. Kasey was as wounded as he could be. Yet this next month we will celebrate nearly a quarter of a century together. And we're happy - we love being in each other's company. We couldn't have done it without Willard Harley, his books, some really good group therapists and a couple of drill sargents that Kasey has a hard time saying two good words about!