Marriage Builders®
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H an update from me. - 06/25/08 07:41 PM
well since i posted on a few other threads I thought I should actually post an update too, afterall, there are so many here that have been so nice to me.

problem is, i really don't know what to say, things are pretty much the same. days just go by, one after the other. we don't really fight much, we just live in the same house together. SF is pretty rare and i no longer care, well maybe i care a little but what's the point, so i'm trying mostly to squash my caring. i guess i have given up. all my trying was not getting us anywhere. he does not complain about the state of our relationship, it seems to be just fine to him. i think the problem is, we have such differing opinions on what makes a marriage good. He has never really needed much from me as far as companionship goes, or SF for that matter. He just wanted me to be faithful and with him till death due us part. i can't make the unfaithfulness go away, so i can't really give him what he wanted most. I can be 100% committed to staying married, which i am. although it seems like such a waste. what good is a marriage that lasts 50+ yrs if there is no love. and by love i mean a love of actions. a love that results in a sharing of life.

my daughter will be moving into college on Aug 15. I really fear that day. i fear i just won't want to be in the house anymore once she is gone.

her and I took a cruise to Spain, France and Italy just last week. It was so amazing.

anyway, i am coping. i have good days and i have bad days. i am doing great with my weight loss, i no longer emotionally eat (ok, well not often and when i do i make better choices). i've been exercising more too. the nice weather allows me to bike ride a lot.

i sure loved reading Bob's update over in recovery.

who knows, maybe something good can still happen for us in the future. i just can't hurt over it anymore. being numb is better than hurting.

(Hi S&C, i did see your hi to me in FH's thread. thanks.)
Posted By: Just Learning Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 07:56 PM

I don't know what to say to you really. being numb and married doesn't seem like much of a way to live. Once your daughter is off to college are you an empty nester?

God Bless,

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 08:17 PM
i know JL, i absolutely hate my update. i've read lots of stuff of yours today, that you have recently posted to others. you always say such good things. sure makes it obvious that my apathy is just wrong.

maybe i'm just being lazy in giving up. i've never gotten us back into counseling. and that is my fault, he is willing, i mean he is willing to go if i set it up, he won't take steps to set anything up. at the very least I should be in IC, to help me cope better. but i fear C in general, having the bad experiences i've had.

there's that stupid word.. fear.

mostly, i'm just tired. i just don't want to care anymore and that is totally on me. i can't blame him for my giving up. i don't blame him.

but then again, all the caring i have done since oct 2004 when i confessed everything does not seem to make any difference anyway. so how can you blame me for giving up.

plus the way i see it, we are still so much on square 1. we have not dealt with anything really. i had enough energy to tackle being on square 1 before. but now, i don't think i could handle trying to address things in depth.

how do i get my spunk back?

We have another son, still at home, just entering HS.
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 08:24 PM
i sit here saying i just don't want to hurt anymore!!!

and yet, that is stupid to think i can stop the hurt by shutting down. i am hurting and shutting down is not changing that fact.

the thing is, DH's parents had a marriage just like our's is now. they stayed married until FIL died. but they never did things together. they just lived in the same house. most of the time they spoke meanly to each other, MIL being contantly critical. FIL responding with sarcasm. they had seperate bedrooms (which we don't have yet, but i sure think about how i might start sleeping in DD's room once she is gone.)

but my DH always maintained that his parents loved each other.

what good is that kind of love?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 08:28 PM

Talk with him about your feelings of energy. Don't accuse, which you really are not doing now, but talk with him. It may be better for the two of you to call it quits. I don't know.

But, talking with him, asking for his help (you are out of gas right now) is the direction you should take. It is clear you need his help. It is also clear you don't want to repeat his parents life. What life does your H want?? Ask him.

God Bless,

Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 08:30 PM

It has been a while.

I've changed my name as the old one triggered you and I don't want to do that.

I know that this isn't easy. Marriage Builders is a program that works for some people. Some marriages are indeed healed. Some aren't. Confessing and making changes do not necessarily equate to a recovered marriage. It takes two willing partners for a marraige to succeed. I know that you know that.

You need to live your life regardless of the response of your husband. Find something in this life that gives you meaning and prusue it. Be the best wife you can as long as you are married. Be the best person that you can.

BTW . . . I know just how you feel.

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 10:22 PM
Hi C_N,

ohhhh, ok, took me a minute but i know what your name was before... thanks for that smile

i can't make there be 2 willing partners but i can keep this one participating.

i've looked up C names. i think i picked out the one i will call.

i'll call tommorow.

JL, i'm a little leary about asking for help. because i do believe he will see that as a complaint. he wants me to be ok with the marriage as is. know what i mean?

or maybe i am wrong. i don't really think he is thrilled with the state of things, but he is ok with it.

i think.

obviously the point is i should not be guessing, i should be asking him.

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 10:23 PM
so C_N.... what about you. would your original name still fit you?
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 10:24 PM
oh and if so... WHY???
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/25/08 11:49 PM


My old name doesn't reflect me now. I am no longer comfortable.

I am still numb.

The problem I find presently is what am I to do now? My marriage survived my infidelity. It survived my wife's issues as well. Here we are and nothing to say to each other. We sometimes smile. I am unwilling to end it and so is she. We . . . cope I guess.

Passion? Love? Intimacy? Not here. We have both decided to live . . . in quiet resignation I guess.

I will live my life in this marriage. I will not know intimacy, or love, or longing, or passion, or . . . I will know stability and duty. That is what I have.


Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/26/08 11:46 AM
well C_N, all I can say is I know how you feel.

I too am unwilling to end the marriage now. I have learned commitment(i.e. duty). I will not hurt him by divorcing him. He is happy, he golfs all he wants, he does not have to worry about money much. I make him coffee most mornings, I have a good paying job, I do my part to keep a clean house and cook as best I can on my days off. He too helps with the housework, he does laundry, cooks meals, buys groceries. We occasionally have a house project that we work together on. I sit with him on the back porch to watch a sunset or two. So far, I'm still meeting his SF needs as they are so much less then mine. He does not need anything else from me to have a happy marriage. He is content.

I've tried so many times to talk to him, I've shown him posts here. In fact I showed him the most recent one from a month ago which included my questions/concerns about SF. The ONLY thing he commented on was how Rose mentioned that she has gotten better at knowing when to give her DH space. He has told me he would discuss other things, but he never has the time. I found out later, it doesn't seem like he even read it all. What am I to conclude other than the only thing he wants from me is space.

He has NO motivation to change, he is fine as is. It does not matter that I am not.

Has anyone ever consoled with Steve Harley without their spouse participating?

the thing that really demotivates me is this: if he really just doesn't like me much as a life partner, I can't force him to nor do i want to anymore. who would want a forced friendship like that?

I've become so anti-divorce though, because at the end of my life, at least I can say I did do that right. I kept my vow to be his wife till death.
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/26/08 12:19 PM

I wish we were both in better places in our lives. Your sunsets sound pretty lonely to me.

Something that I am trying to learn is to not look to my marriage for my sense of worth or for my own happiness. It is just too much responsibility to place on something external. I try to be content in just being alive. I breathe. I play with my kids. I read when I can. I try to laugh when I can.

Maybe it is time just to let the marriage be for a bit. Let it alone and get busy doing something that you enjoy. You say that your H golfs all he wants . . . what do you do?

SF is a tough issue. Most of the time I would rather just not. I don't know how to explain it. It is too complicated now.

I wish I had something clever to say to you . . . something that you could do and your H would have that "AH HA" moment and start meeting your needs. I just don't.

I didn't mean to make this about me, sorry for that.

You know, things will change. They always do. You have a long life ahead of you. Live it fully.

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/26/08 06:58 PM

I agree with you. It is time to just let the marriage alone. I don't look at the success as my source of self-worth but a better marriage would make me happier. That is not to say i cannot find some other sources of happiness. I'm really trying to do as much with my DD before she leaves. She is a very big source of happiness. I enjoy her company so much.

On my own, i love to bike ride and roller skate. I have not skated now for a few years but i intend to get back into it. there is a weekly dance class (on skates) that i used to go to. I;ve tried to go the last few weeks but other things keep getting in the way. I intend to make sure that next wed I am there.

Historically I have enjoyed music but I find that harder to enjoy these days. not sure why.

i love to play games (cards, back gammon) but unfortunately that normally requires someone to play with. but i find other opportunities, at work, there is someone who enjoys back gammon too, when we both manage to get some free time, at the same time, we will play. And I am part of the chess tutor group which goes to a school to teach chess during the school year. this summer we are getting together occasionally to play each other. i won yesterday smile and of course there is my daughter. she will play cards with me on occasion.

i'ld like to get more involved with church and working with kids there, but that is tough to arrange. i am going to get on the substitute list for next school year. i very much enjoy working with kids.

getting in back in shape is finally something i see happening. I felt so unable to for too long. I joined weight watchers and that has helped emensly. I just went over the 20 lbs mark. I still have about another 20 to go. I still have a hard time believing how out of shape i got. i've never really felt or seen myself as so out of shape. just because historically and as a child/teen, i never had weight issues.

i do know what you mean about SF, no explanation needed. I've gotten to a point just recently where I'ld just as well not. I mean if it's just about a physical interaction, which is how it seems to me, it's just not appealing anymore. especailly due to how much i have changed regarding my view on sex.

Life does keep changing, positive change in the future is possible. until then we do our best.

anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: an update from me. - 06/26/08 07:28 PM
Hey FL

Pretty crappy update, flower. {{{{{fl & H }}}}}

I've been trying to condense what moved US out of the "meh" but its hard to quantify.

We got pretty low and exchanged some real "soul cough" truths and opinions. I think we were both at a point where we needed to express how we truly felt more than we needed to stay married.

I put some facts out there which terrified Squid. She responded with a dug-deep fragility and honesty that it actually scared me to see her soul ripped bare before me. No artifice. No cant. No MB-ness. No composing onesself first.No keeping the worst in reserve to retain some bargaining power for later.

Soul talking to soul.

Bear in mind the context for this is that Squid has worked with me in my MB ministry these months and has learned all about affairs and marriagebuilding in a way that snuck under her defensiveness radar.

She realised I hurt just like some of the BS who we help. She hurt ME just like some of the WS we coach did their BS.

Then she got to see how her behaviours to me looked to me. The realization shocked her into letting me know how she truly felt about things. That made me cry. Actually weep in pity for her and in shame at my complicity in her reaching that place.

But God being GREAT we have walked on from that and haven't REALLY had a backwards step in a couple months now.

Can I advise you to do what we did ? By no means. I think the lesson is that with a reluctant spouse investing in a CULTURE of marrigebuilding is required rather than performing a set of tasks such as doing EN questionnaires or reading HN HN for example. And honesty. And patience.

Not much use am I ? Sorry, flower.

All blessings to you !
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/26/08 08:07 PM

Your daughter is off to college in the fall! Where did the time go? I hope you two have a great summer.

Yes, I too would like to have a better marriage. I would really like to have an emotional connection with my W. I think that is partially what messes up the SF. It isn't just a physical thing to me. I can't really have it without if affecting me emotionally. That may be weird for a guy, but it is the way I work. And since there is so little connection right now, it is just too hard for me to want to go there. I will is she wants it, but her dire is pretty low so it isn't an issue that often.

I'm a runner and that is what I do for exercise. I bike also. But the city I live in isn't exactly bike-friendly. And it is quite hilly. I find that when I am training hard my marriage stuff doesn't affect me as much. I also feel so much better. And I maintain my weight.

Running is a solitary pursuit so it does nothing for a need for companionship. I do see other runners out and about and that contact helps.

Music is hard I guess because I just don't hear much new these days. And the old stuff is getting pretty tired.

I haven't attended church in a very long time. My wife and I are of different religions and that just adds to the fun. I think our kids are going to be pretty confused. They do like the Holidays as we celebrate both.

I really hope you can reengage your H. I'm in my 40's now and many of my friends are getting divorced. It is just rampant. I am a little down on marriage at the moment.

Has anything that your tried made your marriage better? I ask because I am running out of ideas and perhaps you have done something that I could try. Or maybe it is pointless.

I remember reading your threads back when you did so much soul searching trying to come to the decision to tell your husband all your secrets. I know that must have been horrible. I did something similar and it just sucked to watch my words break my wife. Perhaps it was too much to ask anyone to put all that behind them and to move on to a loving marriage. I wish I could find a way, but again I am out of ideas.

Yes, let's have hope for a better future.

Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/26/08 08:12 PM

You and your wife seem to have made it out the other side. Congatulations!

I have leared that is very hard to build a happy marriage by yourself. I'm glad that your Squid has decided to join you in making your marriage something valuable.

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/27/08 01:34 PM
BoB, posts from you are always nice. I really am so very happy for you and Squid. In fact the only thing that would make me happier is if it were to happen for us now smile

I don't know how to get him into a CULTURE of marriage building.

My mood is somewhat better than before. I was starting to slip into a (for a lack of better word) victim mood. I am choosing to stay, I am not trapped. My desire is to be married for life.

that said..... we had just a lovely little chat last night. I did tell him I am very much out of steam and in the face of having to take DD to college soon, I'm extremely emotional too. He says he will work on setting up things so we spend more time together. He suggested raquetball today. That might be hard given the schedule of DS's tennis match and a family outing that is happening tonight but then I don't see why we could not fit it in on Sat.

but my "lovely little chat" comment was actually sarcastic. Later in the evening we talked about SF and more specifically kissing.

Kissing is now ok for him, even pleasant, "as long as it is not french kissing".

I really don't know what to make of that. Kissing has been an issue for over 9yrs now. I give. I just don't care. I don't understand the above stmt. Except to say that I do believe 9yrs ago when I first told him that I missed kissing him, it was french kissing that i wanted. Obviously I hurt/upset him greatly for ever expressing that desire. He recalls it as harrasing him. In my eyes, I was merely telling him a desire.

But I obviously need to try to make some sort of ammends for how I must have hurt/upset him for ever saying anything about kissing.

I will admit, i've always focused on how his reaction to my request hurt me that I never figured out how much my request hurt/upset him.

I say hurt/upset because I just don't understand what exact feeling telling him i wanted to kiss more created in him. Although I guess he has told me, it caused him to feel harrased. Mind you this request from me and his response occured YEARS before any confessions. Obviously not before the A that occured while we were engaged or the one that occured 5yrs into the marriage, but it was before all that occured in the most recent part of our marriage.

anyway, he was gone last night, went to sleep at the lake house in order to work on a project first thing in the morning. I didn't sleep great. tossed and turned a lot. a bit late for work now so i better stop my rambling.

Bob, once again, congrats to you and thanks for posting here. I actually have something else to post about which i will do over in recovery after I dig up the last thread I started there a month or so ago in which you and FH were trying to help me reach self-forgiveness. I think, I say think cuz i still feel like I need more time to go by to see if it sticks, I have reached a level of self-forgiveness as well as accepting God's forgiveness.


I got a nice bike ride in last night. I don't run as often as biking but I do a bit of that too. I decided yesterday that I am going to try to do a tri-athlon next year. Three women I know were talking about it yesterday. They all just completed one. I might be able to find one yet this year but I'm not sure I could be ready on time so I am going to set my sights on doing the one they just completed. That is a very exciting thought to me.

We are in our 40's too, mid to late forties to be exact. I'm the younger one!! smile

"Has anything that your tried made your marriage better?" all i got for you at the moment is the act of confessing. It's hard to maintain that concept sometimes, given where we are right now, but even so, where we are now is so much better than where we were back when i had a closet full of secrets. I have do my best to remind myself of that.

It looks like we registered at MB close to the same time. I forget who really knows my story and who does not. I didn't realize you were reading my posts back then. Finding MB certainly did have a huge impact on me. I don't know your story more than what you have made reference to recently. It sounds like you also choose to confess? as opposed to having your A be discovered?

As for "Perhaps it was too much to ask anyone to put all that behind them and to move on to a loving marriage." I don't know but that is not ours to decide and therefore worry about. Like you said, all we can do is be the best spouse we can be today.

for me, getting in great shape (and staying that way) is something my DH wants too. So focusing on that is the best choice for me. As for SF, I have no idea what the next few months will bring. I too am sure I won't turn him down if he ever asks. But for me personally, I don't really care to go there anymore for just my sake.
Posted By: catperson Re: an update from me. - 06/27/08 02:08 PM
JL, i'm a little leary about asking for help. because i do believe he will see that as a complaint. he wants me to be ok with the marriage as is. know what i mean?

Hi. I'm not familiar with your past here, I'm relatively new, but this comment really struck me. Do you realize that this is you giving him power over you? I learned that from LA yesterday.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you, like me, can learn to shift your perception of what you're here on this earth for, you can realize that it's not about 'not complaining,' kwim? My first thought was, 'who cares if he thinks it's a complaint? It's YOUR feelings, not his. He shouldn't be expecting you to have the same feelings as he does. And if he does expect that, well, too bad.'

Just as he has the right to want space, you have the right to want real companionship. The question is, does one of you totally give up, or do you keep the pink elephant alive and well in the room until it gets addressed?

I'm only pushing this because what you said could have been me two years ago. I've been making myself numb for near 30 years, and it has caused me to be near suicidal, given me chronic depression, and created physical problems that I still have 10 years later. Your body doesn't let you 'give up.' It fights back and pays you back for doing this to it.

A final thought. If there was one person on this earth who you really admired and you wanted to admire you, who loves you (your mother, or some such person), and you were to tell them this and acknowledge that the main reason you are staying is because of a promise - a promise - what would they say? "Good for you. I'm proud of you for having the integrity to keep that promise. I'd rather have you keep that promise and live in sadness and numbness, than to reach out for what WILL make you happy. Because keeping your promises is what matters most."

Would they say that? Or would they say "I love you and I can't stand to see you miserable. Please change something so that you can be happy."
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/27/08 02:19 PM

I've never done a triathlon. I've done a bunch of marathons though. I really enjoy the training. I even enjoy the pain in some sick and twisted way. I especially enjoy all those endorphins that follow rigorous exercise. I also like the fact that my waistline gets back to what it was in college.

We are both in our younger 40's.

I was wondering if you now thought that confessing everything was the right thing to do. I am so glad that you don't regret it. If I remember my situation clearly . . . it has been a long time . . . Yes I told her. Then the OW's H called. Then there was a lot of drama. IT took me a while to tell her everything. But now I have. And I don't know if that was the best decision for our marriage, but it was the honest decision and I feel no real regret for doing it. I would have like to have spared her how I really felt about the OW, but she did deserve to know. My A wasn't really about the sex, but there was plenty of that, it was about an emotional connection that I hadn't felt before. Anyway, I've found my first post if you are interested. It is back from 03.

How do you reconnect with your spouse? My name suggests my state of mind. I exist. I wake, eat, work, play with my kids, sleep, etc. But it is all done through some distorted lens . . . it is as if I am standing outside myself watching the actions go by.

My affair has been over for two years. It was with a woman I have known most of my adult life. It was not a one-night stand. It was an EA probably for about a year and PA for about six months after that. It ended mostly from guilt on both parts, but an enraged husband, a gun, and cops all had something to do with it too. It wasn't a healthy situation for anyone involved.

The affair didn't die a natural death (and if she and I wanted to it had to end) and there is a lot of unresolved "stuff" to sift through.

I guess what I'm asking is when do you begin to feel normal? How do you bury the emotions that were stirred into a bonfire?

I am not, typically an emotion being. I am uncomfortable with showing or experiencing deep emotions. I'm usually rational and keep things pretty even-keeled. This whole thing has ruined my equilibrium.

This mess, of course, devastated my wife. I offered her divorce, not really because I wanted it, but because what I did was the ultimate in selfishness. She refused and wanted to rebuild our life, which we have. We are good companions. We raise are children well.

She knows that I'm different now and I know it too. The emotions I went through we just too much for someone like me; I never want to feel that out of control again. I think I've closed some doors and I want them closed.

Is this normal? Has enyone else experienced this? My IC thinks my response to emotions have to do with childhood issues; could be I guess.

It is wrong to just want to be numb?


I’ve change some from that time. Now I want to experience emotion again, and I just don’t. I guess I’m never happy.

I read your story at the time because you were a WS trying to decide what to do. I didn't post to you because I was the last person that could have helped you. I was an emotional mess.

It is strange that you mention the kissing thing. The same thing goes on here. My W just doesn't like it. I think she thinks it is gross or something. I do brush my teeth . . . really. If I think back I guess it never really was a high priority to her. We would do it, but not like I did with previous women. Maybe she just doesn't want to be that close. . . or she thinks that I kiss like a Labrador. Who knows. She won’t really tell me why.

I do know that my wife cares for me. I just wish she could express it in a way that I can understand. I just can't imagine still feeling this way in another 10 years. My kids will be mostly gone by then. And then what?
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/27/08 08:13 PM

i just wanted to acknowledge that i did read your post. I read it this morning actually. i don't have a great response for you. i've really become a person who belives in keeping that vow no matter what. i mean, if there was physical abuse going on then i would say leave. but DH really is a fine person, even if we are not the most successful couple. i don't want this marriage to end in divorce.
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/27/08 08:17 PM

thanks for sharing. i'm tired and i need to get out of the office.

if i start to think about this stuff again, i'll just get sad. i need to take a break. i'm bringing home a late lunch for DD and I to share. she is waiting for me so i have to go.

one question... do you and your wife spend much time together. are there things you would like to do with her that she just won't do or do neither of you even try to do things with each other anymore?
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 06/27/08 09:54 PM

I didn't mean to bring you down. I think I posted to you because I just wanted you to know that another FWS is still in the marriage and is also struggling after all these years.

No, we do not spend much alone time together. Our conversations revolve around the kids and finances mostly.

We do try to get out on a date once a month or so. Getting a sitter is sometimes hard.

I don't know if the reason is that we don't enjoy the same things or we don't enjoy each other's company. Sometimes sitting across the table from each other is awkward as we just don't know what to say. I have this idea that it would be great to see a show and have dinner with her, but when it happens it just isn't . . . how do I describe this . . . I guess I would have rathered just stayed home and read a book.

Will your H train with you for the T? I think that would be a great time for you two to bond. And you wouldn't have to worry running or riding by yourself. My W and I used to run together, but we can't do that now as we would have to get a sitter.

Please don't feel that you have to answer me. And please don't do it if it makes you sad. I think we all have had enough sadness for one life. I hope things get better for you. I really do.

Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: an update from me. - 06/28/08 11:47 AM

Squid and I talk a lot; Squid talks about our experience and R more than I do lately.

I wanted to write something that I have realised that may help ( or not).

Squid no longer feels disappointed in herself if I manifest consequences of the A. Previously she set herself a standard that she would only permit herself to be happy if I carried zero negative consequence of her affair. Unspoken deal, but real nonetheless.

She does not see me upset or respond to a trigger and feel disappointed , anticipating the day when I will no longer trigger in ways show my hut and remind HER of her contribution to this situation; expecting to be able to forgive herself only THEN.

Instead she looks at the day, week or project that we are in and if it is happy, she appreciates it. If it is sad she looks if there are any actions she could take to remove the sadness. If not she accepts it. After 4 years of emotional self-mutilation in response to this that achieved NOTHING, she appreciates me letting her off the responsibility to feel the need to do this.

We discussed and realised life was ALWAYS a combination happy and sad: sweet and sour, and the main difference now is that Squid was culpable for a bunch of the sour in our life lately.
In the past its been loved ones dying, financial troubles etc etc that was nobody's "fault".

Surfing the waves, both the fun ones fun and the scary ones as they roll in seems to be working for us. I do not require Squid to be Stepford-porn-queen any more in order for me to feel compensated for her affair. There IS no compensation possible. I am no longer disappointed that she has not met her side of the bargain that I subconsciously set her, but that she never agreed to.

She no longer requires me to live in a state of amphetamined happiness in order for her to forgive herself for her affair. She doesn't receive my manifesting consequences of her affair as an affront any more.

We were both awaiting impossible statuses to come to pass in order to permit ourselves to enjoy the good parts of our life.

We both only require that we love each other and show it in ways that work.

Our relationship is getting better and we have had the longest period of sustained happiness since d-day in the last 2 months, and this after we gave up needing Nirvana before permitting ourselves to be happy.

We explained to each other very nakedly how we felt. I was taken aback to realise how Squid felt deep inside.

This is a departure for us, but it does seem to be working for us.

Its not REALLY acceptance, as we have hopes of yet more improvement, but I think it is a recognition of each others limitations in ability to be the source of the others happiness.

Of each others humanity.

That make any sense ?
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: an update from me. - 06/28/08 05:17 PM

Well said Bob and congratulations. We still have a couple of hills to climb to get where you two are, but I have hopes. smile

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/28/08 06:16 PM

no worries, your posts are NOT bringing me down. I appreciate your sharing. you sound like you are out of steam too. They say the best way to feel love towards someone is to do loving things for them. I agree and yet i still feel too out of steam right now. best thing i can do i think is to be quiet and let some more time pass. having to say good bye to DD is going to be hard, setting down the marriage concerns for a while may be what i need more than anything. if DH picks up the slack some and initiates some activities for us, i won't turn him down, but other than that i'm just going to lay low.

so i did find a tri-athlon that is occuring here in Aug. Today i went for a 12+mile ride and then I parked the bike and ran a bit. I 100% ran for 1/2 mile and then mostly walked the 1/2 mile back. Its a start. I have to figure out where I can swim to see what distance I could handle.

This event seems kinda short to me, only 400m swim, 12 mile ride and 3 mile run. I know the bike ride will be fine, the 3 mile run may not actually be a run, I'm guessing i would end up walking some (does that count?). 400m is about .25mile, that does not seem so bad.

the women's only triathlon that just occured was a bit longer, 750m swim, about 14mile ride and then a 5k run. but that wont happen again till next summer and i'm really liking the idea of doing something this summer. so i could always do the longer, women only one next year.

DH is not a swimmer or a runner (bad feet), so training together is not an option, but he says he will ride (short distance) around the neighborhood with me sometime, just for fun.

Actually I found a ride that he is interested, it goes thur an older neighborhood that has many Frank Lloyd Wright houses and you stop and tour each house. He says he will do that with me too. That will be fun.

anyway, weather is beautiful today, i hope the same is true by you. DH and I are going to play raquetball shortly. that is always fun.

i do encourage you to try to find something fun for you and your wife to do. i know you have to deal with sitters still, we are past that need and that helps (our kids are 14 and 18). what ages are your kids?
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/28/08 06:21 PM

great stuff, thank you very much for taking the time to write all that. i've read it over multiple times. it all makes so much sense intellectually, putting into practice is the hard part. but reading, re-reading, is very good for me and helpful (just like what you wrote on my last thread regarding self-forgiveness).

Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 06/28/08 06:22 PM
Hi Larry, hope is very good to have. all the best!
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: an update from me. - 06/28/08 07:53 PM
it all makes so much sense intellectually

You know what FL, this advance didn't come about intellectually. For ONCE...

We'd both put force-fields of self care around ourselves. I had become self-actualised ,no longer NEEDED Squid and thought that while I was sorry if Squid didn't like the consequences of her A that was tough.

SHE thought that every mention of the A or manifestation of hurt in me was a use of her past sin to beat her into submission and compliance and that I was making a bit much more fuss than I should so long after d-day. And that nothing she could do would make much difference anyway because she was lower than whale crap.

We got so low that we poured our true feelings into a note each.

I won't write the intimate details of what we exchanged, it kills me that certain folks on here already know too much about me - but suffice it to say I never realised how existentially Squid was hurting and self-hating , and she never realised that I am forever changed as a result of my experiences. FOREVER.

We were both insecure, basically.

So we talked it over and we changed it.
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 07/01/08 01:56 AM
it kills me that certain folks on here already know too much about me
for what it's worth.... i am very thankful that you have shared as much as you have throughout the years.

maybe the difference is that i don't think DH has gotten to any sort of low to the point that he is motivated to really let down what ever guards he has up. i think he got to that point many years ago when he worked so hard to pull me back into the marriage and maybe he just doesn't have more in him.

CN, how you doing?
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: an update from me. - 07/01/08 12:55 PM

I'm doing fine. We finally got a break in the heat here and I've been enjoying it. I'm running again and doing some decent distance . . . 10 miles for my longer runs and 5 for my sorter. It feels so good to run again. I had to stop for a long time due to injury. I am beginning to feel much better. I am one of those people that really needs to exercise.

About the marriage. Well, like you, I'm just going to let it alone. I can't do a lot about it and like I said I'm not leaving anytime soon. It is kind of like a sore spot that you just keep rubbing . . . you know you are just irritating it but you can't seem to leave it alone.

My marriage is a lonely place for me, but my family life is full. Perhaps I am just too needy. I would like to spend time with my wife when the kids are in bed (we retreat and do our own things mostly). I would like to have SF and feel that my W is there and actively participating and enjoying it. I would like to laugh with her again. It just seems really strained. Perhaps we are just too tired these days.

About your training . . . see if your H will slowly ride his bike as you run. He can carry water for you. And keep you company. There is absolutely nothing wrong with jogging for a while and then walking. Keep doing that and just increase the running part and decrease the walking.

Also, make sure you have some good running shoes. Go to a local small running shop, not the mall, and have them fit you. They will give you the correct shoe for your body frame and for the distances that you are going to train. Tell them what you are up to and they can really help.

I can't help with the swimming. I can swim, but I've never trained for a triathelon.


Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 07/01/08 01:15 PM
oh I forgot to mention.... last night i rode to the zoo and back again (12+ miles) and afterwords i ran for the entire mile. I do believe I can do this.

now here is the sick part.... the more i start to figure I can do this, the stronger my insides are saying to me... heck, if you can do this, then it must not be any big deal.

why do i do that to myself? and why do i believe myself when i do that? it's stupid but i believe it anyway.

morning is still young here, i'm going to do some yardwork on the part of the yard that is normally horribly hot in the afternoon but very comfortably shaded right now.
Posted By: FinallyLrningT2H Re: an update from me. - 07/01/08 01:22 PM
forgot to mention...

see if your H will slowly ride his bike as you run. He can carry water for you. And keep you company.
he just would not do that, would see absolutely no reason that I can not do this on my own. and i'm ok with that. the run is not that long anyway. i suppose if i were training for an actual marothon where i was needed to run many more miles, that might be a different story. i have done 5K runs before, i think the last one was 2 yrs ago but still, 5K is not that much.

we did however have fun playing raquetball the other day. I even beat him. hours before playing i had taken a long ride and ran the 1/2 mile, oddly instead of being insanely tired, i played better than normal.

honestly, he could beat me if he really played his best, he could hit way more kill shots then he does, but he plays to my level (or just bearly above it, which is a good thing) and sometimes I can sneak in win.
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