Hi.

WH just left. Started talking to him about our R, etc. And asked him WHY he came home. He said the same bull. Then I asked him if he was really willing to participate in recovering our M. Same wishy washy answer.

Said he thought he had done all he could do.

Then I asked if he was seeing someone. He said no. I looked into his eyes and could tell he was not telling the truth. I kept silent and kept waiting for him to tell me again. And I waited.

Then he said yes.

I told him to GET OUT. He sat there and just stared out me. This time, I just told him what I really thought about his lies, deceitfulness and that I hoped he was really proud and happy with himself. I don't really give a hoot about a Plan A on a 2nd affair. I told him I could forgive him once, but not twice.

He was waiting for a decision to be made for him. Now it's made.

JERK.

DS is going to be devestated. This time I am telling him the truth too. Not that "Mommy and Daddy are trying to work some things out."

So, ML. You're hunch was right. He kept it hidden nicely this time too. I don't know who she is or anything. I don't really care. Supposedly he met her while we were separated. He supposedly wasn't seeing her when he came home. But contact somehow started while he was here.

JERK. JERK. JERK. JERK. JERK.

Here's what I think. He was staying with a "lady" towards the end when he was not living here. I think it was whoever it is that he has been seeing for the past few months. Then he thought he missed me and missed DS. So, she found out that he was considering working things out with me. She got mad & he all of a sudden needed somewhere else to stay. As a result he asked ME if he could come home.

Well, seems like my worries of Recovery are over.

Oh my gosh, I am SO SORRY for your pain.

I have NO IDEA whatsoever what this would be like, but I know you have come to a place that is safe for you and will support you as you walk through this.

{{{{{{KIM}}}}}}}}}

I wish I could say I am sorry, but I am NOT. I FEEL RELIEVED that you found out the truth. Something was obviously very wrong. I am sorry you had to endure a false recovery, KIM, and am sorry for your boy.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{KIM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Kim, I am not asking you this to make you feel bad, but did you refinance the house and pay off his credit cards? If you say yes, i promise i will not make you feel bad for it. I just want to know if he got that.

PMG

(((((KIM)))))

Thanks for the support. I need it.

He stood there before he left and said "I love you." I told him to never say those words to me again. I told him that he didn't know what love was. That he needed to go and find out who HE was and that maybe one day he could be happy with just himself instead of trying to find happiness in other people.

I told him not to contact me. I told him we were back to the old schedule.

He asked if he could sleep on the couch and I said NO. That he made a choice. That he KNEW what he was doing and he still chose to LIE to me. He chose to LIE to our son. What a A- hole. It kills me to know that DS is going to get hurt again.

He wanted it to be easy on him. He said he felt he was trying to keep pushing me until I asked him to leave. Well, geez. If he would told me about the A a few months ago it would of saved us all a lot of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


JERK. JERK. JERK. JERK. JERK.

This is what terrifies me about him, Kim. He would rather drive you INSANE wondering what is wrong than tell you the truth. This is what he did the last time, remember? I believe he ENJOYS playing cat and mouse with you. He enjoys the GAME of CHASE and watching you slowly crumble from being gaslighted. HE ENJOYS IT.

HE IS NOT SAFE.

Yes.

He stil has credit card debt though.

I've got all of the tax refund money in my account. And I've got enough of my own money set aside to do a D.

I was even helping him buy a new car. Both cars are in his name right now. Crud.

How can someone be so cruel? He tried to act like he felt bad. He acted like it was "hurting" him.

This is so horrible. I was going to say that he knows how bad he hurt me the first time. But if he did know, he couldn't have done it again.

He asked me if he could call me tomorrow. I told him NO. I don't want to hear from him ever.

He knows that he hurt you terribly the first time. You did tell him that, didn't you? I believe I remember QUITE CLEARLY that you told him this OFTEN. And even asked him to LEAVE because you could not take the pain anymore. HE KNOWS HOW BADLY HE HURT YOU.

In fact, I clearly recall that you told him in your PLAN B LETTER how very hurt you were.

Oh, he knew. I'm just saying that if he FELT the pain that I am feeling then he couldn't have hurt me AGAIN in the same way.

Some WH's do feel our pain. Others say the understand it, but never really do. Mine falls into the second category.

He is missing the empathy GENE. Which makes him NOT SAFE.

I was already thinking while WH was still here. I should change all of the locks. I've decided to call in sick tomorrow to take care of that. I'm going to look like CRUD in the morning anyway.

What else should I be thinking of?

I never got mad enough to throw all of his belongings in the driveway. Maybe I should take the liberty to do that too!!

I like the idea of taking tomorrow off to change the locks. Then maybe you can pack up his stuff and deal with it later?

Mel -

Will he ever be SAFE? I am just blown away that he could come home, pretend to be recovering the M and then bring that CRUD with him too.

I told him that I hoped the SLUT was worth it. I am pretty sure I said all kinds of things to him that I shouldn't have.

He just kept sitting there, looking all sad. I asked him if he wanted me to keep going, because I could. I could keep telling him how awful he was so he could end up HATING me. That way leaving would be much easier for him

Is there anything that I need to do to protect myself that I'm not thinking of? Money wise I have a feeling that things are going to get rocky.

He said he guessed that he would find a hotel tonight. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't on the phone to OW saying that he was so relieved that I kicked him out. Now they can be together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kim,
I've never posted to you before but I have read bits of your thread.
I found out 4 days ago my recovery was false as well.
Sux doesnt it.

Can I cry with you?

I don't know if he will ever BE safe, but you KNOW, YOU KNOW, he has not been SAFE IN YEARS. IN YEARS. He has caused you and that boy the most horrible grief and trauma. Over and over again. You have to protect yourself and your boy from him.

Thank you all for being here. You guys are always here in my darkest hours. (especially you ML....how do you always know??)

((((((((((kim))))))))))



Charlotte

I think you are quite entitled after having been abused, raped and gaslighted for the last 3 years. The man has been mistreating you for years, Kim. Don't you DARE castigate yourself for lashing out at him. I would have pistol whipped him myself.

Hi Lil Doggie. It does suck. I am sorry for you. I guess I didn't want to admit that something could be wrong. But underneath everything I must have known. Otherwise I would have been a happy Recovery story who was busy with her happy life with H & DS.

Is your WS still at home then? Are you still going to try to save the M?

Helps to know I'm not in this boat alone.

Truthfully, it felt kind of good to speak without caring if I was going to say something that might "push" him away. Or that might "hurt" our M.

Since I have no Plans of a Plan A, it makes no diff!!

Did it feel EUPHORIC?

no.

PlanB now

If I would have let myself, I think I would have smiled afterwards.

I also felt like I was having an out of body experience. Partly in disbelief that this was happening to me yet again.

He's a sociopath Kim - your suffering means jack to him.

I was wondering if you felt your sub conscious mind go HURRAY FOR JUSTICE!! THANKS FOR STANDING UP FOR ME, KIM!!

I am so very sorry, but again, it is a GIFT FROM GOD that this finally came out, Kim. He could have dragged this on for a very long time playing cat and mouse, wearing you down more and more every day.

He could have toyed with you much longer.

Should I even bother exposing? Right now, I would be doing it out of spite.

please note that this time YOU STOOD UP FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR SON.

The last time we had to PUSH YOU to protect yourself. Remember? Look at how far you have come.. Do you SEE IT?

Kahuna -- thank you for being here too. I felt your cyber hugs earlier.

He has deeper problems than I can help him with.

I wouldn't hide it from anyone, such as his mother. But outside of that, I wouldn't even bother. I would definitely tell your boy. He is plenty old enough to know the truth.

Melody -

I am going to struggle a little bit with my R with God in this. You know the song about unanswered prayers? I have to accept that this is what is in God's Plan for me...

And I am proud that I stood up for myself and DS. I am going to have to pull myself together for him before morning. It's almost 2 AM here...

But I don't think I can go to sleep.

God has sure been strugggling with you, Kim, and has had his hands full for about THREE YEARS trying to protect you. And he has done that at every turn. He brought you here 3 years ago when you were at the end of your rope and we helped get you away from the affair. You wouldn't even defend yourself in the smallest way at first. Now, you are strong enough to protect yourself when need be.

Then when you allowed him to come back for more, God made sure you found out again!

He has had your back for a LONG TIME even though you continually threw yourself in harms way. He has never failed you.

I am praying for you Kim. For you and your son.

I'm also praying for your WH because he has lost his way with God completely.

I've been through a situation similar to yours (2x cheating H, 7 years apart). I can really relate to what you went through tonight. It was sureal for me also the second time D-day, like I was watching myself in a movie. Couldn't believe it was happening yet AGAIN.

Be strong and know people here care.

God bless,
Jo

Yes, be very proud of yourself.

BTW, there's a song I heard today, by a female artist (can't remember who). It's country, and basically the gist of it is "you should've said no, and you might still have me. You shouldn't be begging at my feet" etc. If you've heard it...have a listen.

Might make you feel better.

I'd suggest a swift Plan B, but...I'll let the veterans handle this.

Thanks ML and Jo -

Thanks for your prayers.

ML - I am just going to have to keep rereading what you posted. Right now I am just sad. Things are starting to hit me hard right now.

The anger is subsiding and reality is sinking in.

WH is not here. I have kicked him out and our M is most likely over.

He doesn't give a flip about anyone but himself. He pretends to know about love.

Absolutely, be very proud Kim. You stood up for yourself and your son. Enough is enough.

Jo

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{KIM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I know this feeling, and understand.
[[[[hugs]]]]

Karma Rose - I don't know that song, will have to hunt for it. Plan B is definitely in - personal recovery needs to be my focus now. Thanks for your post and for caring.

Thanks guys. I think I am going to try and lie down for a bit.....hopefully I can sleep.

Hopefully.....

My head is aching and I feel sick to my stomach.

I will pray before I go to bed.

Thank you again everyone.

Keep in your mind Kim that everything you're feeling is normal for what you've been thru. You've lived thru years of mistreatment.

Be sad, but don't take responsibility for any of it. You did everything possible to recover your marriage. You should have no regrets. A BS can't make a WS cheat, just like they can't make them stop cheating. He chose to cheat and because he's done this before he fully knows the consequences. No guess work there.

Jo

You have lots of people praying for you to find strength and resolve when you wake tomorrow.

Jo

I remember the day you washed up here Kimberly. What a transformation there has been in you ! LOOK at you girl ! Strong, protecting your family like a TIGRESS- taking NO more disrespect and corruption from your poison WH.

You can look in every mirror now and see a woman that went the extra yard to recover her M but but refused to have a disrespectful cheating wretch in it.

Be proud of yourself and be confident in your future, Kimberly. I know I am very proud of you and very confident in your future.

Kim, I've not posted to you before either but I too have read your story. I am also praying for you and your son now. May you feel God's peace in your heart. You have done all you can for your marriage. You have enough strength to be all your DS needs for a happy childhood still. {{{Kim}}}

Good Morning. Jo, Bob and Learning -- Thank you for your prayers. I need to dig down and find strength for DS. I can't be sad all the time. I do want to give him a happy childhood & want him to have good memories.....

I didn't sleep much at all last night. I hope this gets easier.

And I know I have gotten stronger since 3 years ago. I know I have grown as a person.

Just made a dumb mistake.

Kim
Don't think I've ever posted to you before, but if you read up on my sitch, you will find some eerie similarities, right down to telling your WH off before he left and his deerintheheadlights reaction. Same same.

Give it about a month and the sadness will subside. Focus on getting things together, legally. If you can get an LSA in your area, do it. Protect your assets from this idiot.

My son is now 6 years old and has been in the midst of my boomerang marriage for three years now. I'm glad that divorce is immenent at this point. It is a resolution for all that is really for the best. I am in Plan B again, for my sanity and to help me move on in a healthy way. I haven't felt this good in years.

My WH had two PA's.

Kim...great job last night. Keep that lousy excuse for a man out of your life from this point forward. Get a bull dog attorney and "CRY HAVOC AND LET LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR."

Hi - I will have to read up on your sitch. Time will ease the pain, I know. or I hope. I'll read up on your sitch. Maybe it will give me some hope for feeling better.

In my state they really don't do LSA's. So I'd have to do a D. WH was pretty good during my last Plan B in giving me bi-weekly checks.

It stinks to be here, and am sorry that you and your son have had to go through this horror. I am glad to read that given time, there are good feelings ahead.

I had a family vacation planned & reservations are set for the first week of August. We were going to take WH's car (that I'm helping to pay about 1/3 of each month) because mine is a gas guzzler plus I haven't gotten my AC fixed. I don't know if I'm still going to go now. I know I should, but the gas prices & no AC for 7 hours is not appealing.

Since I agreed to pay 1/3 of the car payment, do I have the right to ask to take the car for vacation?

We were also supposed to drive down to my parents this weekend. My nephew is leaving for the marines & my sister is having a going away party. Again, I hate driving my car with gas prices like they are.....And I'm not up to being around family, but I need to go for my nephew....

thanks MedC. I need to get my head straight and figure out my plan. Right now Plan B. Get strong again.

If I D, I then have the decision of whether or not to stay in the city I am in or move to be close to my family. There is the issue of DS having a relationship with WH. If I move, then that would be 2 hours away. My Dad has kept a job offer on the table for me with his business all this time.

I am quite happy where I'm working now. But, the potential with my Dad is pretty big.

SilentLucidity -- Your links at the bottom of your post don't work for me. I'll search to see if I can find your thread.

kimberly234,

I'm very sorry about your situation. I think it's every BSs worst nightmare. If there is anything more cruel than infidelity, it's putting your BS through a false R afterwards.

I say if you feel like exposing, why not do it? You've earned it.

(((((kimberly234)))))

Does he know Christ, or does he pretend about that too?

An unrepentant adulterer will not be in heaven, so he needs to meet God first before anything else.

And you need to know that God has granted you the right to a divorce for just this sort of situation.

Prayers and hugs for you during this difficult time.

The "euphoria" of the moment will pass...keep posting.


God bless.

kim, you can drive at night, when it's cooler. Take the vacation. For your son's sake.

Kim,

I'll bump my thread.

and...take that vacation; if you can manage it without WH's vehicle, then do so. It seems really taxing, and at first, it is, but getting to the vaca spot, and having the help of family is priceless.

As far as moving away with your son, that is a toughie, because it is very important for a kid to have his/her dad around, even if it's only a little. If you WH begins to show no interest in visitation, THEN I would move. However, if the opportunity is one that will secure yours and your sons future, I would weigh your options. It's a tough spot, for sure.

I have a good job, and good friends and I live near my family. I am blessed in that way. It's a good thing, because these last three years have been h3llish.


It really does get better. There are a few here who have gone the Plan B to Plan D route, and are doing very well.

(((Kim)))

I am so sorry you just got this terrible blow, but I am glad for you that the doubting period is over. Now you know what you are dealing with and can plan accordingly.

Did you have legal counsel last time? I know you say WH did OK with paying support, but I would get something legal set up as soon as possible. You don't know where his selfish immaturity will lead him this time.

He knows how it went down last time and he probably thinks he can still push you around for awhile.

I think you said there is no LSA, just D, I would go ahead and get something going. Get the reality set down in paper and work on the feelings stuff later.

I am so sorry Kim, I will be praying for you and DS.

(((Kim)))

Hi all -

I know I keep saying this. But your posts mean so much. Thank you.

I might try to rent a car. Between the gas prices and AC it might be worth it. I'm also going to contact the lady I'm renting the condo from and see if she has a smaller unit since it will be just DS and me.

I'm just not ready to see a lawyer yet. I know it would be for my protection, but I can't get my head there right now. I wouldn't be able to think straight and would just be crying the whole time.

I need to let WH know to pick DS up at home today. He gets ticked when people tm him b/c he has to pay for it. But that is probably better than and e-mail. I also need to let him know to get some of his things from the garage. e-mail?

SL - I saw where you bumped your thread. Thanks.

Thanks for the prayers Jean.

((((((((Kim))))))))

I've never posted to you either, nor do I know your whole story, but I am so sorry for what you are dealing with. It is all of us BS's in recovery worst nightmare. Again, I am so incrediably sorry.

About the vacation, I say go. Do you have a family member or friend who may be willing to trade cars with you for the vacation???? This may help....(my sis had a friend she did this for....can't hurt to ask...). Either way, go...it will be good for you.....

About the lawyer....make an appointment right away. I know it will be hard, but don't give this man any wiggle room. Also, you said you were worried about not emotionally handling it, so can you take a family member or a trusted friend with you. Someone who would ask questions you may not think of and help take notes so you aren't so "bombarded"??? Sort of like when someone is diagnosted with cancer. The sick person should always take someone with them to the dr. to help them with all the info thrown their way....

And lastly, take care of yourself. My suggestion is to see your Primary Dr. right away. Let them know what is going on in your life so that way if things come up (depression, anxiety, loss of sleep.....) they will already have the heads up to be able to help you. I was already dealing with anxiety and Dep. when my first Dday happened and I went to my DR. 2 days later. It was probably the best thing I ever did, because it let her know what emergency I was dealing with and we talked about ways to cope, and it also let her know what was going on if/when I needed med. help.....

Again, I am sorry this is happening, though it sounds like you were strong through the whole thing. As far as giving him the riot act....KUDOS TO YOU.....Don't feel bad, don't be embarressed....he got what he deserved and he probably deserved a whole lot worse.....

Your in my prayers honey.....


((((((kim))))))

not2fun

Kim,

I haven't posted to you before either, but my thoughts are with you. Same sitch for me - 9 months of a totally false recovery. He and OW were plotting the entire time. UGH. So I've been there too and I went out with a bang too. Lots of LB's.

I wish I could say that you could get through this with no pain, but you can't. You just have to cross the Extreme Pain River to get to the other side. There's no bridge, but there is a life jacket to hang on to and it's called Plan B. Grab it with everything you have in you and hold on tight. It WILL get you to the other side safely with your dignity still in tact. That I can promise.

(((KIM))))

Kim,

I am sorry you are dealing with this, I recently found out of ongoing contact over the last few years with the same OW. It changes your whole sense of reality of this time.

Be kind to yourself, with me the anger, sadness, grief came in waves, not all at once like the first two times.

We went back home over the 4th of July and on the drive there (9 hours) it was difficult. I wanted to ask him to pull over so I could get sick but I controlled it. For some reason the physical aspects of the affair (the PA part happened in 2003) are hard to deal with now. I also am haunted with the times I thought were good between us the last few years and what the reality actually was, he was probably not present and in fantasy land much of the time.

I hope it all works out for the best.

Prayers,

BA
(previously nabohio)

Kim,

I want to also urge you to set up an appointment with a lawyer. They are equipped to handle the business at hand, and have seen many a crying woman in their presence before, I'm sure. I know I couldn't hold back the tears with my lawyer, but she was prepared. She kept her composure, and was very strong FOR ME; she kept the conversation moving forward, took plenty of notes and did take good care of me.

I will be using her in my divorce, you can bet on that.

It's better to protect yourself NOW. You are dealing with a loose cannon who will do god knows what to your credit and any money you two share.

It's okay to be a emotional mess. It's not okay to excuse yourself from protecting yourself and your child, finanacially and emotionally, from further assault.

In MD, where I live, you can set up an LSA; otherwise, i would probably be divorced already.

I'm glad you have seen my thread. There have been a lot of good posts on there, to help me in personal recovery. That thread is my SECOND, started during my last false recovery. My first thread was started in '06, during my first long false recovery. It's been a long road. If the boards linking system ever gets fixed, there is a lot of good stuff in that thread, too.

How are you doing, Kim??

(((Kim and DS)))

Hi SL, Jean and BeginAgain --

I had about the type of day I expected. Going through bouts of sadness and crying and then feeling o.k.

I am still going to hold off on the lawyer. The fact is that even though WH has put me through H.LL I still don't want one. What is wrong with me?

No one else in my family has EVER gotten a divorce. That could be part of my putting it off. I will be the first. That makes me sad. I also felt like I would be successful at everything.

I told DS this morning that Daddy wouldn't be coming home. I said that it was very hard for me to tell him and that Daddy was hurting me. That he lied to me about loving me and other things. When it came to the "girlfriend" part I kind of jumped over it. I kind of mentioned it......but in a way that didn't highlight it. I know I didn't do a good job, but I couldn't bring myself to talk about it again.

DS just sat there for a few minutes. He asked "why" and that's when I told him that Daddy was huring me. Then he asked if we could go bathe the dog and went on like it was no big deal.

Later, I mentioned that Daddy would be picking him up for dinner. He said "Pick me up at 5, back at 7" And that was the end of it.

It worries me that he seems so fine with this. I always tell him that he can ask me any questions or talk to me about anything..... I hope he is able to share any sorrow that he might have..

On another note. I did get ONE lock changed. I bought two stupid dead bolts and neither one worked right for me. I was at least able to get the regular door lock changed. All the other doors, he either can't get to or doesn't have a key anyway.

I put a note in the mailbox for WH to get some of the things I had put in the garage. I put a mish mash of things in a TRASH bag(quite appropriate, I thought).

I also put the digital camera he gave me for our 16th Anniversary (last month) with the stuff. I look at it only as a guilt gift. He didn't take it. Oh well, I don't have a digital camera so I suppose I will keep it. He wouldn't have remembered our Anniversary if it wouldn't have been the card we got in the mail from his mom the day before.

He has changed his pw on the one e-mai account that I know about. Stuff never showed up there anyway. Now that I think about it, he has to have one other e-mail account b/c I never saw bill reminders or banking info in the other. Oh well, none of my concern now.

I will have to say though that I am wondering if his OW is married? If so, does her H know about it? That would be the only reason for me to find out who OW is. To make sure that someone else wasn't being blindsided in this deceitfulness.

Well, I'm going on up. Ds is going to camp out with me tonight & I should get him on to bed.

I talked to my parents and told them H wouldn't be coming this weekend. I'll have to tell him I asked him to move out AGAIN.

Kim
I know how you feel. JUST keep putting that one foot in front of the other. Keep the lines of communication open for your son. Keep an eye on his grades, when school starts and make sure you talk to his teacher/s to let them know the situation. YOu don't need to go into detail, but it's important that caregivers know about his family sitch. They can help alert you when something seems amiss.

I wouldn't wait too long before calling an attorney, but I understand that divorce is not what you want.

keep dark in Plan B, remove yourself from the drama, lick those wounds and gain some strength. You'll be ready to come out swinging soon enough.

Consider talking to your family physician, to let them know what you are experiencing. You may want to consider meds for the interim, unless you think you can weather this okay. I took AD's for about 6 months last year. It helped with my anxiety.

Keeping busy can help stave off the depression, too.

Hi Kim,

Just finished reading your thread...

I am soooo sorry for the situation you are in...

...you sound much much stronger and better able to protect yourself than the first time around... going to Plan B as the healthiest route to consider and as a means of 'damage control', to name a few... and you are getting great advice...

(((((((((((((((KIM))))))))))

Hi Kim,

I wondered what happened to you. Every now and then I read here and I couldn't find anything about you, so I figured you had divorced and moved on.

We were here about the same time and I can't believe you are still in the thick of this. I don't know how you do it. I am 2 1/2 years post divorce and this all seems like a lifetime ago. Mine was a "drop the bomb and run" followed by a quickie divorce that I did not want. Now I think I am the lucky one.

I know you don't want to hear it, but there is life after divorce and you can be happy again. Do not consider divorce a failure on your part, you have done all you can. You may not have ever planned on a divorce, but is this the life you had in mind? Is this what you want for yourself? Kim, you are worthy of so much more. Remember, the best indicator of future performance is past performance. Do you really want to be here 5, 10, 20 years from now - again?! You are young Kim and can start over.

As you may remember, I too have a young son, a few years older than yours. I'd be careful with the "daddy hurt me". They are very protective of us and will start to hold back if they think it will hurt us or worry us. I always try to give the facts and try hard not to embelish with my feelings. You can say, daddy doesn't want to be married anymore. Period. Boys need their dads, no matter what. Believe me, they will know what went down.

Take care Kim and be strong.

Kim, here are two quotes from what you've posted. The first is from your last post, the second is from your first post.


"What is wrong with you?" Normal human reactions to sin, to betrayal, to focusing on "me" rather than focusing on Christ.

But the two statements are mutually exclusive...and one of them has to "go."

In the first post you made it crystal clear to your husband that "forgiveness," let alone reconciliation and rebuilding of your marriage, is NOT POSSIBLE.

I agree with you. It isn't possible without Christ. But when believers are involved, not matter how much they have succumbed to the "struggle with our human nature, our sin-natured flesh," SURRENDER to God and God's power makes all things possible.

But now you don't want a divorce. You can't "have it both ways" anymore than your husband can have it both ways, you AND another woman.

Either you are committed to no forgiveness and a divorce, or you have to commit to forgiveness and being married, even IF if means that there WILL BE very hard days as part of the recovery process. The "key" for believers is simple; will you try to do it on your own or will you try to do it THROUGH submission to God even if you have days when you 'don't feel like it'?

I asked you earlier on about your husband's faith. Perhaps I should have also asked you about yours.

I asked about your husband's faith because the Scripture is clear that unrepentant sinners are NOT going to be in heaven. Why is that? So that each of us WILL "examine ourselves," because the "real factor to consider" is our eternal state, not our present circumstances. I asked because God is also a "God of Peace" for faithful spouses who are faced with spouses who will NOT repent and turn TO God in humble submission and obedience TO God, and THAT is why Jesus granted divorce TO the faithful spouse for an incalcitrant spouse.

You DON'T have to make a decision about divorce yet. But you do need to spend time with the Lord, especially with the "Forgive or Not forgive" issue, so that you are prepared to "do things God's way" when appropriate, regardless of how you might be "feeling."

Remember, Jesus talked about forgiveness KNOWING that He was to be betrayed by EVERYONE, including Peter, who asked Him about forgiveness. Jesus forgave Peter, and three times He asked Peter, "do you love me?" as part of the reconciliation and reinstatement process. There was also a reason why Jesus "went further" than "simply forgiving Peter."

And those reasons apply to recovery of a marriage, AND both the forgiver's and the sinner's "perspective" on what it actually TAKES to "get to" 'Recovered'.

Kim, you have the 'right' to a divorce. Your marriage "meets God's criteria."

You also have a right to 'not divorce'.

The choice is in your hands, from God's perspective, regardless of who might actually "file the papers."

And God is also patient, KNOWING personally the emotional devastation of adulterous betrayal. As Peter said, to paraphrase, "I love you Jesus and I will NEVER betray you." But the "battle of the flesh," the lack of the indwelling Holy Spirit, overcame "his will" and he denied even knowing Jesus (just like a lot of WS's say something like, 'we never should have gotten married' when their emotions overtake their love for the BS and their commitment TO that love).

God waits on you, and He waits on your husband. The only remaining factor is "what do YOU wait on" and "how long is 'long enough'?"


God bless.

People of all faiths are able to forgive FH. It does not require a belief in Christ to recover a marriage. Obviously a believer in Christ would do well to follow His examples and commands...but the above statement clearly states that forgiveness is not possible without Christ in your life....and for some, nothing could be further from the truth.

Your opinion is noted, MEDC.

According to the Scripture, ONLY God can forgive sin.

We can forgive actions that impact us, but to "forgive AS God has forgiven me"? Not possible for anyone who has not themselves been forgiven BY God. It's sort of like the "log in one's own eye" sort of thing.

Now, why don't you offer YOUR advice and comments to Kim and I will offer my advice and comments to Kim, and KIM can decide what "makes sense to her for HER situtation and HER life?"

If YOU want to discuss "Forgiveness in Christ" with me, I will be happy to accomodate you on another thread, not by way of you attempting to hijack Kim's thread.

Kim, your boy needs to know the full facts. You don't do him any favors by not telling him, except to cause more confusion.

If you just tell him "mommy and daddy are having problems" he is going to grow up thinking that its ok to kick your spouse out when you have some minor problems. He needs to know what it was that his dad did that caused so much grief it led to a separation. If you don't tell him the truth, his dad is going to tell him something alright. And it won't be flattering to you. He will spin the story like he spins it to you.

Good to see you here, Shattered!

I agree 100% Mel.

FH...thanks, but "no." I stated my opinion and don't feel the need to discuss the topic any further with you.

Is there a Christ thread?


My sister was beaten to death at 45 by her very abusive husband. I could tell you the whole story, but it is sad. Short story is that she stayed all those years due to her faith in Jesus. Her ministers all told her to stay that Jesus does not forgive divorce. Catholic, so she stayed "until death did part" at his hand no less.

What is the truth? Where can I go?

I left you a response on your other thread.

Unfortunately, people are often times mistakenly putting themselves in harms way or staying with an abuser because of horrible advice regarding the "religious" aspect of their union.

WifeEWSII - Medc is Catholic and divorced.

Jesus GRANTS divorce to a faithful spouse due to "marital unfaithfulness" of the unfaithful spouse.

God forgives ALL sins for those who believe in Jesus Christ.


Abuse IS "marital unfaithfulness" and the "ministers" who told her to stay are the same ones, apparently, who don't think Priests who abuse children should be "kicked out." There ARE also consequences for sin, not "excuses" for unrepentance.

I am very sorry to hear that your sister endured such abuse and what it cost her. For the record, MY opinion is that there is NO excuse for physical abuse just as there is no excuse for adultery. BOTH are "not allowed" by God.



You can go to the Scriptures.

You can ask specific questions and get responses based upon the Scripture.

What is truth? God IS truth. HE is the authority of what is true, not the mere opinions of "Man."


God bless.

FH is wrong. He knows I am not Catholic and haven't been for over twenty years. MEDC WAS Catholic and divorced (in fact at the suggestion of a priest).

First and foremost Kim, I wanted to let you know that I have read your thread...remember you well...have wondered about you, and will be saying prayers for you and your DS...Bless both of your sweet hearts...((((((((((KIM))))))))))...

Kim, about this...


You know Kim, sometimes success does equal divorce...As a fellow Christian, I'm sure that you also believe that our purpose here is to serve God...Could you really serve God to the best of your ability while living in this kind of abuse? God granted divorce to BSs...Kim, do you think that God would grant you a clear path to take if He considered that path to be "unsuccessful"? He loves you far too much to lead you astray...I know that for sure!


I do not believe it is an either/or situation...I believe that Kim can both rightfully divorce her husband due to adultery, AND IF her husband repents and ASKS her to forgive him then she can...(Actually, as a Christian, she is commanded to forgive him under that circumstance)...However, forgiveness does not mean that there must be a reconcilliation of the marriage...

Mrs. W

I am Catholic and divorced. My Pastor, as well as the priest who married my XH and I (he is a very close friend of my parents) both advised me to file for divorce. The Church does not unequivocally insist on "till death do us part," If they did, there would be no need for the provisions in Canon Law (the "law" of the Catholic Church) for annulment. I think that it is VERY VERY unlikely a Catholic priest would instruct a parishioner that they must continue living with an abusive spouse. My experience (my family has a large number of friends who are priests and nuns) has been that, if they do not advise on divorce, at a minimum, the will tell the abused spouse to remove themselves not from the marriage but from the marital home.

Adultery can be such a potential jackpot for the devil if he gets a BS who does nothing. Just think of the potential: nervous breakdowns, suicides, lost, orphaned, profoundly confused children, etc. Women who spend years in Plan A, trying to attract back an unfaithful spouse, for example, suffer nervous breakdowns and years of post traumatic stress disorder.

Children are corrupted by the immoral behavior of the WS and taught that wrong is right. They are trained to be cruel, selfish little liars and cheaters OR to be abuse victims like their BS parent. The devil must dance with glee at the prospect. Adultery is like a buy one get free special for the dark side! He can take down an entire family for the price of one!

Unfortunately, Dr. Harley's plan interferes with all that fun by giving the BS a PLAN to remove herself/himself from the abuse before she is dragged down into he11. Sure, it is not perfect solution, but it beats the alternative, which to stay around and be beat into submission and insanity. It beats exposing the children to the spectacle of their only sane parent doing nothing to protect herself and teaching them to grow up to be abuse victims.

I bet the devil HATES Dr Harley.

I've been thinking more about this Kim...I strongly suspect that your WH realizes that very thing about you and has exploited it in the worst possible way for years now...that is gut wrenching and very sick...

Kim, please take care of you...

Mrs. W

i agree with MrsW and also suspect there he is not worried about you divorcing him. I bet he thinks he can go play again for a few years and you will take him back when he is done playing. Here is what Dr Harley told a lady in a similar sitution.

I agree with MrsW 100%

I was the first D in my family. I remember being embarrassed to walk into church with my kids, and no H. I figured that everyone was staring at me and saying "there goes a single mom. I wonder what she did wrong" I went through months of having panic attacks every time I went to the grocery store, becuase I felt like grocery stores were for normal, intact families. Not women who could not keep their man around....

Of course, all that is behind me now!!

I now realize that the church is full of other women, and men, just like us, who are looking for forgiveness. Looking for a peaceful life.

that first trip to the lawyer is scary. BUT just going in, sitting down, and asking questions does not mean that you have to file for D that day.It is very important for you to get in there and get some good solid advice.
You said something about helping him buy a car - you refinanced the house recently - he has other debts. You just need to get a clear picture of what your situation is now, and how to protect your future. Even if you never file for D - you are in plan B right now,and need to protect your finances for you and your DS. There are things you can be doing right now that will just make your life easier later on.

At the very least, please get a copy of your credit report TODAY. Go online and do it for free. that way, if he suddenly racks up a bunch of debt later on, at least you will be able to see where you were as of today.

also - when you go to see the lawyer, it would be good to all ready have that credit report.

I know it is scary - believe me I know. Find a lawyer, make an appointment, take a friend to sit with you in the lobby. It will give you great peace of mind to just talk to a professional and get real answers.

I was the first D in the family. But I am the greatest success story. Not because of the D, but because of the solid, loving, peaceful life I have built for myself.

Hi Kim

I just wanted to add something about the "divorce/domestic violence" issue that has been brought up. Many of the pastors and priests who quote "God hates divorce" neglect the rest of that verse. It actually says the following:

Mal.2: 16 "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the Lord Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith. "

Some versions of this text actually say that God "hates" divorce but He "abhors" a man who clothes himself with violence.

In addition, the verses before this say:

"13 Another thing you do: You flood the Lord's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. 14 You ask, "Why?" It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. 15 Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth."

When it says "the Lord is acting as the witness..." that's a legal term in the old Hebrew law for "accuser". God is the one who stands up for us in this whole matter. He's the one who brought us together. So, even if there is a legal "divorce", God does not release the offending party from their responsibility in His eyes.

The part about God not hearing the prayers of those in unrepentant adultery (broken faith with the wife of your youth...your marriage covenant) is pretty strong about where God places the responsibility for adultery.

Lots of WS's like to say "God wants me to be happy" as if God were some permissive parent who lets His kids get away with naughty behavior. What God actually says in His word is that He wants us to have "abundant life" and He set up boundaries-just like a good parent-to help us have that life.

Think about the 10 commandments. They aren't a bunch of "don't do this." The first four are about how His people should honor Him and worship Him. The 5th one is about how to have good family relationships. And the last 5 are how to treat other people, because if you really want to get along with someone, you shouldn't kill him; sleep with his wife; lie about him; steal his stuff; or be envious of his success. Pretty practical IMHO.

I hope this is helpful in some way. Hang in there!

Gosh Kim, you are getting some fantastic support here, very valuable advice. I hope you are okay. We would like to hear from you. We all know how difficult a time this is for you.

Please seek legal counsel--so that you can at least have some knowledge of where you stand and what ways you can protect yourself, even if you choose not to file for a D.

Hi Kim,

Just dropped in here to see how you are and hope your feeling better than the other night. I have been praying for you.
See your lawyer, I am starting my proceedings now.
Ignore your WH and all about him, just think of yourself and your DS, you are entitled to be selfish now. Its all about YOU!

{{{HUGS}}}

Lil.

wow. a lot of things for me to digest here.

As I am reading, tears are flowing down my cheeks.

FH - I don't believe my WH has ever accepted Christ into his heart. I was raised Southern Baptist. I have not done a good job of keeping my relationship with Christ active or done a good job of serving Him. WH and I have attended a church together since he's been home. We had attended Church together some before the A and during our Marriage.

so, Mel. What is the best way to tell DS? Just come right out and say "I asked Daddy to move out because he has a girlfriend?" I know that some parents don't tell their children and they grow up with very successfull relationships and Marriages.

I do see your point. You don't tell someone to move out just because they hurt your feelings. I also told DS that Daddy lied to me. But, you don't tell someone to move out just because they lie to you. It depends on what the lie is.

I understand everyone's point about seeing a lawyer. I will think about it.

And about the forgiveness thing. I said that out of great anger. With prayer, God can help me forgive WH. I don't want to live the rest of my life with this thorn stuck in my heart. I don't think it matters to WH if I fogive him or not at this point. That is something he will one day have to take up with God.

I wish that WH would just take the action and divorce me. He is the one who doesn't want this M. I don't want it in the state it is in.

so Mel, you think he would never D me??? Just keep me hanging until I broke down?

I am still having moments of sadness and I still hurt.

Shattered - it is good to hear from you! I am glad that you are doing great and that there is life after D.

Sometimes I think about it & I think of how free I could feel if I were free of him legally. But then I think that I will always love him and be tied to him emotionally.

I will pray that God will guide me and help me with my decisions.

Lil doggie - Thanks for checking in too. Mrs Wondering - I remember you too!

I know I didn't address all of the points, but it has me thinking. Thank you all.

I know I can get through this even though I don't feel like it now.

And I also know children who were not told who grew up profoundly morally confused and SCREWED UP. There is no reason to not tell him. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.


Can you see how this would worry him? You seemingly kicked out his father because you weren't getting along and because he lied to you. What if you and your son don't get along? What if he lies to you like all children do?

I just think its important that he understand the seriousness and GRAVITY of your decision to ask his dad to move out. It was not a frivolous decision on your part and he needs to know WHY so he doesn't grow up hating YOU over this.

It would also help if your son told his dad how disgusted he is about his adultery. Your H should be put in a position to have to explain himself to this boy. He has put this boy through he11, let him explain.

And I would be VERY CLEAR with him about what is happening and not whitewash it. Talk about ADULTERY and why adultery is wrong. Tell him it is immoral and that this is NOT your H's 1st affair. Tell him about the last affair and how much pain it caused you.



Oh yes. That is what he has done so far. He strings you along as much and as long as he can get away with it.

I will post my Dr Laura transcript about telling kids the truth in the next post.

This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show recently. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.

Dr. Harley, as many of you know, is a strong advocate of telling the children the TRUTH.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

Kim...

I very much agree with everything that ML posted to you...I think it is CRUCIAL for your son to be told the truth...

On another note, have you thought about calling JustPeachy? If I recall correctly the two of you had met on at least one occasion...I think that she would be a wonderful source of local support for you right now...

Mrs. W

Kim,
I don't think your WH will file for divorce. He didn't last time and he won't this time. It is obvious he doesn't want to be married, but I don't think he wants a wife either.

I think he wants a mom. He wants someone to cook and clean and manage the family while he runs around like a 17yo boy.

Do you really want to put up with him whining to you about his poor finances like he did last time? Go ahead and get it all set up. Then you both will have a very clear picture of what option A and option B look like. I think if you are the one to file, that gives you more power to the timeline. It can go as fast or slow as you need.

I am curious what your communication with him since he left is. It struck me that he didn't want to leave but was sure fast to change his email password once you kicked him out. If he wanted your forgiveness, he would have been out at the crack of dawn resealing your driveway or something.

Draw your boundary, you will not be "default" position for him anymore.

And I agree, DS is old enough to know. Married people don't have boyfriends and girlfriends, he can understand that.

Your WH sees what is out there and he knows what was waiting at home. Don't make it easy on him to slither back in without doing the work. You are his family, not just a place to crash when he is in between deals.

Well here's something else for you to consider about your son - if he does not know that Daddy was asked to leave because he had a girlfriend, then when WH has visitation with this son, and takes him around said girlfriend, how is he possibly to know that this woman along with his father is the reason he can't have both parents in his home, together, in love with each other?

If you don't define it as wrong, she's going to be just a nice friend that daddy has instead of the evil threat she is to him.

I will try to do this Mel...I grew up knowing nothing of married people who did this kind of thing. Never happened to anyone that I knew. Everyone in my hometown stayed married. My childhood was full of innocence. I only wanted the same thing for my DS.


I wish I could e-mail this to WH.


Hi Mrs. Wondering - hope you have been doing great! Yes, JustPeachy & I got together a bit while WH was gone and she was great support. I tried reaching her a few months ago......


Jean - you make a good point and I have thought about this over the past day or so. It also gives me control over a situation where I feel like I have no control over.


I sent him an e-mail stating that I could not see or speak to him while he was in a relationship outside of the Marriage. That if he could TRULY end his A that I felt we could really rebuild our M. That the fun and laughter we shared the past weekend was indicative of that.

He e-mailed me back --- summary: I am an amazing and incredible woman. He loves me tremendously. He loves DS tremendously. He is sorry for what he's put me through. He won't promise or say antyhing that is not true but will do anything for me and DS to make DS's life as normal as possible.


KaylaAndy - I hear you loud and strong. Thanks for reading and posting. I don't want DS to think that the OW is some nice friend....

I will try, try to work up to telling DS everything...


A friend came to visit me last night as I had invited her kids over to play with DS and have a cookout. DS had a lot of fun & I had already shared with my friend what had happened with WH (she knew about the last time too). She ministered to me and we talked a bit about addictions, etc. She recently helped counsel a friend who's H had an Internet Porn Addiction. They were also counseling through their Church and the H was instructed to move out until he met certain requirments. Sounded a lot like the MB program. In the end, the H moved back, but was still not able to stay "sober". After being disappointed a second time, the wife decided should could not go through the same steps over again. So she decided to D the H. She had two small children adn didn't want them to be exposed to his addiction. The H was exposed through his father and that was how he was introduced to it.

I realized that this applies to my situation too. I don't want DS to grow up and have an A on his wife. WH's mom is twice divorced I think. Supposedly his biological Dad had an A on his mom. But his mom never told him until recently.

My friend encouraged me to give this some more time. She asked me what I thought I needed to happen next. I told her that I needed to get myself right with God and draw nearer to him. To pray and find peace and joy through Him.

She said that God would reveal to me and guide me in what I needed to do. To take one day at a time with Him.

Before she left, she prayed with me. It is a blessing to have a neighbor like her.

I tried e-mailing the the H of WH's first OW. His e-mail bounced back, so I decided to call him. He served his wife D papers this week. I asked him if she was still working at the paper. He said no, but he didn't know where she was working now??? Does that seem odd? He doesn't have his two kids, and will not be granted custody. He said as far as he knew his wife and my WH never stopped contact. He sounded great & I told him so. OW has a different phone # now & he has stopped caring about what she's doing.

I want to believe WH when he said that there was absolutely No Contact. He even told the counselor last Saturday that there was none with that particular OW.

Silly me. I didn't know I needed to ask him about any other Relationships he was carrying on.

Just checking in on you Kim, hope you and DS are doing OK

Jean -

Hi! Thanks for checking in. Ds & I are doing o.k. I still have my moments of sadness of course. But DS seems happier than ever.

but hey!! I reserved a horseback riding session this Saturday for DS & I!! I am soooo excited. It will be DS' first trail ride. I hope he enjoys it!!

I also joined a local "healing relationships" meet-up group. Will see how that goes.....last night as I was filling out the questionnaire I answered that I wanted the Marriage to work out still and that ideally WH and I would try again. But this time REALLY following a rigid plan.

I don't feel like I did the first time. I never had thoughts of what life would be like a year from now without WH. I always pictured the future with him back in it. Now I occasionally think of what is will look like a year from now without him.

I think of what WH has turned into. What he has turned into is not attractive at all. It sickens me now whereas before I looked at it as someone who has "gone astray" and needs to be led back home somehow.

IF the old husband ever turned up, I might be willing to give it another go. BUT if God has it in his plan another chance for us, it is going to be different the next go round.

I have really enjoyed the extra time I am getting to spend with DS. I am back into the habit of reading devotionals to him and praying before bedtime. Perhaps God is doing me a favor? Maybe I would not be able to raise DS to know God so well with WH here?

Part of me still wants the M to work out. Part of me does not.

Tonight between chapters in a story I was reading to DS, He said "Mommy, I need to tell you something." (with a big grin on his face) "No, first I need to tell you something then I need to show you something"

then he said "I love you Mommy." and he gave me a huge hug with a big smile. Made my heart melt.

He seems very happy. And that makes things easier for me.

Hi Kim,

Sounds like you are doing well.


...and I see your DS knows a good thing when he sees it!

Hi Kim, I've "been away" for a little bit and wanted to catch up with your situation. The following quotations are not "sequential" in "posted time," but they are relevant to each other, so I grouped them together in order to hopefully respond a little more clearly.


Okay, you know your husband better than anyone except for God. If you are correct, then you have been in what God calls and "unequally yoked marriage." Why do you suppose he was "going through the motions" of attending church with you?




Not "silly," he was (and still is) taking advantage of your love for him and your trusting nature. He KNOWS you believe and he has probably heard all about God saying, "forgive" someone. You know, things like "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others," etc. But he "conveniently" forgets that to be forgiven requires repentance on the part of the sinner.




Dr. Laura is 100% correct in her assessment. I've just had another personal "go around" with this very subject, and people don't "like" the truth when it inconveniences them and they DO try to play the "judgmental card" to get you stop saying what is true.

Here's the "key" for you on this one, Kim, God IS truth. What God has said in His Word IS truth, imparted to us BY God.

What Dr. Laura said concerning the custodial parent and what to tell children is also true and it is consistent with God's Word. "Train up a child" includes righteousness (behaviors that honor God and humbly submitting our will to God's will) and honesty (truth).

Too often today people want to deny the idea of "authority" and of the existence of "absolutes." God is "in the business" of truth and He has the authority to decide the "absolutes." "Personal responsibility" is often tossed out the window in favor of "if it makes ME feel good then it must be right." Wrong. Evil often "feels good," at least for a short time. That's part of the enticement of sin.

Part of parenting is to give our children "truth," even when sometimes it might hurt for a while, because truth not only "heals," but it established that there IS "right and wrong," and the children NEED that. They will be faced with having to make their own decisions, and it's very important that they KNOW that "excuses" do not negate "right." It is important that they KNOW that what is "right and wrong" comes from God and is not just a "relative thing that each person can bend to justify wrongful behavior."




A wonderful example of "fog laden self-justification."


"I am an amazing and incredible woman." You ARE. A true statement.


"He loves me tremendously." No he doesn't. A false statement to "sooth" is very unloving behavior.


"He loves DS tremendously." No he doesn't. A father who loves his children does NOT continue to bring pain and devastation into their life by his own self-centered indulgence of "doing what he wants to do even if others get hurt." That is NOT love and it is not protecting his children and it is not self-sacrifice as a Parent.


"He is sorry for what he's put me through." No he isn't. He's sorry he "got caught." He's sorry others can't see that he is "entitled" to do whatever he wants to do. He is NOT "repentant to God" and he is not repentant to you.


"He won't promise or say anything that is not true" An "empty" promise. HIS "truth" is whatever HE wants, not what IS true. What he won't promise is to "follow Christ" because he doesn't thing Christ IS true and that God IS truth. He wants to twist truth in the same way that Satan twists truth, to deny what God HAS said.


"but will do anything for me and DS to make DS's life as normal as possible." This is laughable. "Normal as possible" without him. There IS a truth in here, Kim. That truth is we find our "life" in Christ, not without Him. That is the truth for you and your child. But it is NOT the truth for him because he WILL NOT "do anything" but indulge his own wants and desires to "give into" temptation and sin.





Kim… out of the "mouths of babes." A "childlike faith."

"Perhaps God is doing me a favor? Maybe I would not be able to raise DS to know God so well with WH here?"

Kim, please don't forget, while you are dealing with all the trauma of your husband's actions, that God is first, and foremost, the God of Peace for those who know Him and love him. God says to Kim, "I love you Kim." And He gathers you under his "wing" as a Hen gathers her chicks and gives you His hug, warmth, and safety from the turmoil raging around you.

God knows the future, and He clearly promises you that He will never leave you or forsake you. He will walk WITH you through all the turbulence of the day and will LEAD you into a future WITH Him as you walk with Him. Our "circumstances" do NOT "define us," nor do they negate the truth that "we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Rom. 8:28)

"All things" includes your husband's choice to disobey God and bring betrayal and devastation into your life and the life of your son.

God bless.

Good morning Kimberly,

Sounds like you are keeping busy and doing good things to bond with your DS. This is really the best thing for you both right now.


Many of us understand what you have been thru and what you are going thru right now. There are still days that I shake my head in disbelief that things went SO WRONG. There were days, right after PWC left, that I looked at what I did and wondered where *I* could have worked harder. now, I don't doubt at all that I did all that I could, that it was really up to PWC to step up to the plate, and his decision was not to. I was not willing to remain in a loveless marriage.

You are doing well, despite the situation. Thank you for your support on my thread.

(((Kimberly)))

FH - Thanks for reading and posting. I am still struggling with telling DS everything. I will pray that God will give me strength and guidance to telll him.


Thank you for that too. I was angry a few days back, desperately sad and undone. I can feel God protecting me under his wing. I still have a long, long, long way to go.

Your analysis of WH's e-mail was good. I couldn't help but e-mail him back the next day. At the time, I didn't care that I was breaking Plan B and didn't care if it would upset him or not.

I e-mailed him back with: "I don't know how you can say that you love me. Your adultery is causing great pain. I don't know if you pray, but know that I am praying that you will choose to seek out God and ask Him for guidance. Normal = End your affair. Don't tear our family apart."

He hasn't contacted me again since.

From SL
I still doubt myself. Yes, WH also decided not to "bring it". but I still find myself faulting ME at times too -- more like, if I would have not been so blind to the red flags when he asked me to come home and stood up for the list of things I needed before he moved back in, things would have been different.

PLEASE, guys, don't let me fall back into that trap again. I was blind by my own eagerness to start working on the M again.

Lets see, he got a refinance, me paying part of his car payment and he recently bought himself a laptop. I feel scammed.

{{{{KIM}}}}

I know how you feel. Its good to see you leaning on God, let Him be your husband now.
I dont post often to you but I do read whenever you write. Your DS sounds wonderful, I know you can train him up to be a good man of faith and integrety.

Lil

You were scammed. But you know what is different now? You protected yourself all by yourself. You didn't have to be pushed to move off the train tracks. You recognize it now when someone is using you. It gives me such great peace knowing you have come SO FAR!! You are going to make it and your boy is lucky to have you to protect him.

And you can count on me to say something if I see you falling back into that trap again! Somehow I don't think you are going to fall for it again.

Yup. I get it. Kimberly, give it some time and you will be able to discern what REALLY is yours to deal with and you will let go. This is going to take some time.

First off, THWAP (2x4), stop answering those emails. Get an intermediary. PRONTO. This is your task. Get darker.

I would suggest the books "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend and "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie. This is a good place to start while in Plan B. You can begin to implement boundaries in your life. Initially, it's no easy task, but you get the hang of it.

LIL - He is being such a big "little man" about this. He did have a rough day at camp yesterday. I hope he is not just putting on a brave front for me.





Melody - I just wish I had figured it out sooner. I am stronger!! I am not sure if I would have pushed WH about working on the M last week if I hadn't come here first and had you guys question me about him having another A. It was in the back of my mind........


SL - I know, I know.....I'm sure even if my e-mail is not nice, it gives him some sense of satisfaction that I sent him an e-mail. I'm not sure who I would want to ask to be an Intermediary this time around. WH ran off my Intermediary before. Then I couldn't find another one. My plan is to just put any schedule changes or pertinent info in with WH's mail. And put it in the mailbox for him once a week. I don't plan on contacting him unless it involves $$ or DS.

I have contacted the counselor that WH & I saw last week. Trying to work at a good time to do IC. I didn't even get myself IC the last time I had to go into Plan B. I really plan on taking care of myself.

I want to live my life, not just watch it go by. I want to experience things, not just wait for good things to come my way.

Oh, and thanks for the book suggestions! I do love reading.

You sound like you have pretty good footing now, Kimberly. I suppose it's because you have been at this long enough to know that you WILL be okay.

As for your DS, he probably IS putting on a brave face. Just let him know that you are there to listen. I want to reiterate what Melody has touched on. It is so very important that your son know that what his father is doing is WRONG. Teach him this now so that you reduce the chances of DS repeating the behavior he sees in his father. This is not about BASHING your WH, this is about being honest with your son about his fathers actions and it's affect on the family. Just think about it. I'm going to leave this subject alone now. I know how hard this is.

The book by Melody Beattie is a good one. Daily affirmations on owning what is yours and letting go of the rest.

SL -

It is hard for me -- I did ask DS today "DS tell me what you think marriage is?" "What do you think it means to get Married?"" He said he wasn't sure. I'm not sure if he just didn't want to talk about it or he really didn't know.....so, I talked to him a little bit about what it meant to get married, talked about the ceremony and the promises that you make to another person.

I took a baby step in the direction of telling him. I first wanted to know what his impression/idea of marriage was --

I'll get there......

Cool beans, Kimberly. I think you are doing just fine. Baby steps

How do I enforce boundaries without an Intermediary? WH called last night & left a vm regarding my note to him. My note was bascially a schedule of next week and then a reminder about giving me a check b/c he hadn't given me one yet.

He wanted to know if my note regarding Thursday was for this Thursday or next Thursday. Then he said he had a check for me and had "forgotten" to give it to me. That he would come by and put it in the mailbox.

Then today he e-mailed me - to tell me he put a check in an envelope and slid it in the garage. That he came by Saturday while I was out of town to mow the lawn, but everything was locked up. and "I'll do that if you will give me access to the garage." He told me he would be going out of town next weekend for his high school reunion, wouldn't be back until late Sunday (which is his day with DS). Wanted to know if he could spend the day with him on Monday instead (he's taking the day off).

Then he asked for his phone charger and some of his clothes. He had the nerve to sign it "Love, WH"

I think he is feeling a bit guilty. I mowed 1/2 the lawn on Tuesday & guess he just wanted to "offer his help". Thanks, but no thanks.

I don't plan on responding to the e-mail. Even though I want to so I can tell him he's helped quite enough already. That surely he must be jesting when he signs off with "love". He took me for a fool once, but I'm not falling for that again.

I'll just put some clothes in the garage for him to pick up on Sunday with some other miscelleneous things. Short note to say "Next Monday is o.k. Pick DS up no later than 7:45 AM. Back by 7 PM. Don't call me as long as you are having an Affair. Normal = End your Affair."

It is sad, but I feel next to nothing for WH. He has pretty much shattered anything that was left. I grieve sometimes for what was. But am somewhat happy that he doesn't get to me like he used to.

What you are feeling is normal, and what he is doing is by the script.

Get an intermediary. Write a Plan B letter and send it to him.

Break open your copy of Surviving an Affair. Go to page 79 and start reading up on Plan B. There is a sample letter there on page 80 that Jon wrote to Sue. Use this as a template.

Get as dark as you possibly can. I really think you need to see a lawyer, Kimberly. Get serious about this. Protect your assets and your child. Set up visitation and an intermediary ASAP. Then get dark. You have choices here.

Do not let him help you around the house. So far, so good with this one; keep it up.

SL -

I'm not sure about sending another Plan B letter. At least not the same type that I sent the first time......

This is my first Sunday without DS. WH just picked him up.....I hate this routine. Hate it, Hate it, Hate it.

I found a suggestion from a website about how to word telling DS about his daddy having an A. Below is what I found:

"when a mom and dad decide to get married, they make a promise to love only each other. Sometimes moms and dads make mistakes and hurt each other. Dad loved another woman in a way that he should have only loved mom. That’s why mom is so sad.”

I think I will use that with DS, changing the last line to "That's why mommy could not let daddy stay here anymore." I think I will take out "Sometimes moms and dads make mistakes and hurt each other."

Had a good day with DS yesterday - the horseback riding was fun, but he was too scared to ride by himself even with the trail guide "ponying" him. So, we had to squeeze into one saddle together!!! He enjoyed himself by the end of the ride.

Well, guess I'll go shopping or something --

Kimberly,

I have not read your whole thread but I wanted to tell you that in the last few posts that I just read you sound like a very strong woman.

I wonder alot lately what I would do if my H ever betrayed me again and I just realized after reading a few of your posts that I don't need to worry about the what if's because I can be a strong woman like you and it would not be the end of my world. I know I ramble a bit, but what I am trying to say is that you are an inspiration to me.

Trying -

Thanks for reading & for your post. Some days are much better than others. You are right, it really is not the end of the world. And more often than not, I do look at it as a new beginning.

I hope I can keep inpsiring you..

There are so many people here that are stronger than they realize.

I wanted to share this with everyone - My neighbor e-mailed it to me and it really helped me through a rough day. It is a letter from God -

He has your back, Kim!

My good day ended terribly.

I hadn't prepared myself so well for the drop-off. And I now remember how hard it was for me before on Sunday evenings. Pick up and drop-off are awful. Why is it that I get so sad & depressed?

DS went with me to walk the dog after & he had just gotten off the phone w/his Grandma. Then he pretended to call his Dad - I thought he had so I walked ahead as I didn't want to hear the conversation. Even though I walked ahead I could hear him pretend to talk to him - telling him about a show he thought he might want to watch later. When DS got off the phone, he came up ahead & said "mommy, I just got off the phone w/Daddy. I told him about the show we were going to watch." I just said "o.k.". Then he said, "I'm just kidding!" For some reason, that got me. I said "DS, Daddy has really hurt mommy. Please don't tease mommy like that." I got down on my knees so I could look up at him -- and then gave him the speech I had been holding back on. I told him that when a Mommy & Daddy get married they make promises to each other. They make a promise to love only each other. And that Daddy loves another woman like he is only supposed to love mommy.

He looked at me and then said he was going back inside.

UGH. I think my timing was way off & I was hurting at the time. I didn't want to tell DS when I was already upset. I went to my backyard and just sat down & cried. I think it hurt DS. It hurt me to tell him.

Gosh, I hope I did the right thing. I don't feel like I did. I feel awful for telling him.

I feel like I have shattered his innocence and childhood.

I know what you guys are thinking. It wasn't me, it was WH. WH did all of this. Not me. But I was the one who told DS.

later, DS came out and found me. I dried my tears as quickly as I could.

I DO NOT want this to be DS's childhood memories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I DO NOT want DS to look back on this & think of this time when he thinks of his childhood. HOW can I make this better for him?????

While I was sitting outside, I was sooooo close to texting WH with "I hate you." WH had told me that he wished at times that I would call it quits and tell him that I hated him. He would get his wish.

I had the text ready to send. But I didn't send it.

I just can't believe that this is happening to me. Still.

(((Kim)))

Trust me, I know how much that stunk, BTDT.

BUT...

It is better that DS knows the truth. In his little mind, he may have thought you were mad at Daddy for throwing his socks on the floor instead of the hamper. He will do better knowing that marriage is big promises and it takes something big to end a marriage.

(((Kim and DS)))

Hello Kimberly, you do not know me and I never posted before.

I have been following your thread (not sure I'll be/ am in a similar situation).

Just wanted to tell you that I think you did the right thing about talking to your son.
I dont believe there's an easy way of telling it.

That sadness of yours would always be there.

We can't protect them from everything. He's going to be stronger now.
His child memoires will be of a good strong and supportive mother who had the courage to tell him the thruth.

Wish you the best.

Jean & Lost -

Thanks. I hope that you are both right.

I keep thinking that maybe I can break some cycle -- What would have happened with WH IF his MOM had told him the truth about what happened with she & his Dad. His Dad had an A. Would WH have been a different husband? Had he know how much it hurt his mom, would he have done the same thing to me?

Yes, you did the right thing. I would go even further by saying that you should have done it earlier. He's 8, not 3.

I think you should have another talk with your son. But this time, calm and collected. Allow him to ask questions if he has any.

Hi Kim,
just dropping in to say hi.

Hi.

Hope things are going well for you and DS. {{{{HUGS}}}}

Lil

Hi Lil - thanks for stopping by!! I'm reading your thread....

SL suggested I do a Plan B letter. I believe you are right SL. But I don't know if I should do the standard since this is the second time.

WH e-mailed me today telling me he printed school supply list & asked if I had gotten anything yet.

I did not respond. He does not need to be e-mailing me. If WH wants to buy some stuff, he doesn't need to check in with me. I'm certainly not checking in with him.

Suggestions on Plan B letter? I mainly want to enforce boundaries, don't have an intermediary and am not sure if want to save the M. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

((((kimberly))))

I know how difficult that conversation was. There may be more of those in the future, but it gets easier, because the emotional side of things wanes and you are able to speak without all the hurt. My DS knows that his daddy hurt his mommy and that he broke a vow to love and protect me and our family. We still talk about this now and then, but it's less often.

I say to write the Plan B letter just as if you did want to save the marriage. It matters NOT what your WH will think; it only matters what you want--since it will be you penning the letter. It's a love letter, of sorts, and a citation of your boundary and how you will enforce it (no relationship/contact with you as long as there is OW in the picture). It's harder with young children, but not impossible.

As for me, I do not TALK to PWC, I email, mostly, and only stuff about DS. Just the logistics of raising our son. Sad, really. He's missing so much, although I'm not so sure PWC thinks he's missing anything. I do not have an intermediary this time around. I am able to deal with the minute amount of contact we do have, and PWC keeps it strictly business.

Break open SAA. Write the letter, Kimberly.

O.k. - here's a stab at a Plan B, second try after false recovery and found out H is having another affair letter:

Dear WH,

I could tell something was not right the last several months, but I could not put my finger on it. When you first came back home after being gone for so long, we had some amazing times. I was nervous and scared, but willing to take the risk of allowing you back into my heart because I still loved you very much. Reading bedtime stories together to DS again, falling asleep with you next to me, looking forward to seeing you at the end of the day and looking into your eyes and seeing the love you had for me reflected back made me know I had made the right decision.

It was nice to have you tell me how much you missed me, how lonely you were and that you loved me. What I didn't know was that there were still secrets that you were keeping. WH, it was no wonder that you had a knot in your stomach every day. Why it was hard for me and hard for you to focus on the marriage. Our attempts at recovering and rebuilding were destined to fail because you never completely cut of contact from the OW long enough to withdraw yourself from her.

It was no wonder that I couldn't get over those feelings of betrayal.

WH, I still love you. You are family. DS, you and I are family. Your adultery is hurting me incredibly. I believe that we can have a beautiful marriage, one that does stand the test of time. But I need your true commitment and honesty.

Until you can tell me that the Affair is over and you are willing to be open and honest with me, please only correspond with me if there is an emergency (such as DS is hurt or if you are unable to pick up DS at the scheduled times).


O.K?? suggestions?? I'm tired, so will take a re-look at this in the morning.

It's a lovely letter, Kimberly, but I cannot comment much right now, as I am tired, also. I will say this....


Be specific about how he can contact you. I really do like the first paragraph above. Very honest, and loving. Maybe say "until you can prove that the affair is over"--since waywards SAY all sorts of things.

Think more on it tomorrow.

Kim,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't the oringinal OW is it? For some reason I thought he met someone else before he came home?

If that is the case, I think your letter needs to address the fact that he needs to decide whether he wants to be married at all.

I'm not making sense... the first affair seems to be a anomaly, nice family guy, freaks out and has affair. OK, we've all seen that that can be worked through. But when it happens again, so soon after false recovery...I don't know.

Is this the same OW or a different one??

And maybe your letter just didn't include the specifics for privacy reasons, but did you clearly outline schedule, money and responsibility issues until something legal is done?

Cover everyting so there is no need to question the rules.

I am surprised that he hasn't contacted you more. You just said leave and he did and it seemed to pick right back up from the old PlanB, for some reason that worries me.

Do you think he thinks he can just have another round of swinging single and then some back home when he talks you into it?

In my humble opinion I think your WH will look at this letter as a confirmation that you din't really "kicked him out" and that he can do whatever he wants and come back at anytime.

Just keep being strong for you and your DS.

At this point NC with your WH is the best for both of you.

Jean & Lost -- so your opinion is that I shouldn't do another Plan B? At least not in the way I wrote the letter? I know I need to work on it some before I give it to him. Jean, WH told me it was someone different than the original OW. But I have no idea if he was telling the truth!! HAHAHAHAHAH. A wayward telling the truth????

I guess the real questions is: Do I want to try once more? Am I an idiot for even thinking that?

Are you saying to me "Give it up, Kim. This is the guy's second affair. It's over. Just get a D & be on with your life."

I got another e-mail from WH today. So I really need to do something quickly.

When I kicked him out, I told him NOT to contact me.

His e-mail today asked if I could give him a check for my portion of the car payment. He also asked for another box of his checks. Then he offered me use of the car for vacation next week as I would have AC and better gas mileage.

My first thought is to not respond to the car offer. BUT, I am paying for a portion of the payment. Why, should I not get to use it? I am paying about 1/3 of the car payment. I have thought about not giving him a check. But that would make me a person who goes back on my word.

Help, help with Plan B letter.

willow said:
I screwed up on allowing him to come home without meeting my requirements. IF I let him come home again it won't be the same. So, I don't think he will see it as "I can come back home anytime I want". I also would consider a post-nuptial agreement before he comes home again.

First time in this thread, and don't really know the whole situation...but, from what I just read in your last post, it seems you want to do another plan B...but you say that you "need to do something quickly" in regards to your WH's email? If "doing something quickly" means deciding whether to reply to his email, and you are going plan B...then why even plan B? Just a question from an outsider's POV...FWIW.

Hi Introvert -

"doing something quickly" meant getting my Plan B letter to him. I am tired of him e-mailing me (twice this week) and he left a message on my phone last week. So, I'd like to get the Plan B letter to him (not respond to his e-mail).

Oh okay...sorry, just thought that's what you meant.

No problem!

thanks for reading!!

Kim, are you going to let him come back to do this all over again to you? He has no interest whatsoever in being married. This is not about an AFFAIR, but about an attitude whose foundation is a lack of committment, lack of care, lack of respect. This is a man who wants to be single. That is the problem. The affair is just a SYMPTOM of his chosen lifestyle and worldview. He is a single man whose goal in life is to have FUN.

He is committed to a SINGLE, PLAYERS lifestyle that is incompatible with marriage.

So, he can end that affair and nothing will change. He will just come back for awhile again until he gets bored and then go play some more until you throw him out again.

No, it would not. It would mean you are a person who makes NECESSARY CHANGES based on CHANGING CONDITIONS. The conditions changed and it would not be in you or your son's best interest to continue to paying for his car. If you had known he was not serious about your marriage, YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER AGREED TO THIS.

Did he tell you before you agreed that he was cheating on you? Did he tell you he was not committed to the marriage and would put you in a position to have to separate from him again before you agreed to pay his car payment?

You and your son need that money much more than he does.

Kim,

I am not likely to say "give up on the marriage", hell, I am a year and a half divorced and I still hold on to something (I don't know what but I am hanging on to something).

BUT...

Like Melody said, I don't think your problem is his infidelity. If his genitals rotted off, he would still find some way to avoid home, family, responsibility. Your plan B sounds more like a parents tough love for a wild teen. That is appropriate in one vein since that is how he is acting.

BUT...

It is not appropriate for a grown man who has a wife and child. I wouldn't planB him, I would file for divorce and let him know how close you are to done. Maybe I am wrong, but I do believe that you don't have to be in a hurry to get divorced, just start playing grown-up with him.

He has no respect for your planB.

If you want to write about a path home, I would make a clear and non-negotiable list, see tst and sexymommabear(maybe wrong name) for a list of what a MAN does.

This is not a "time-out", he is not being "grounded", you are a grown woman who needs a grown man to help her lead her family.

You need to move the line in the sand, he pi$$ed all over it last time. Let him know that your BS meter has been recalibrated and you won't fall for the same song and dance.

JMO

O.k. so you really believe there is NO HOPE whatsoever.

Back to the car payment. He paid for my car completely. Even when I kicked him out the first time, he finished paying for it.

let's say I tell him that I am not giving him any money for the car. I tell him that I cannot give him any money because I feel like it is supporting his affair.

In turn, he stops giving me money. So, we are back to filing for a D to protect myself financially.

Jean - I actually hate the thought of having to spend thousands of dollars divorcing this man. The money could be well spent elsewhere. It angers me that I have to part with money this way.

I'll have to think more on what you and Mel have said.

I do want him to stop e-mailing me.

Kim,

I am not saying there is no hope. I am saying prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

IMO, I think you should at least talk to a lawyer, minimal if any $$, and find out what you would be likely to be awarded in a divorce. That will give you some more info.

I hate to get into the car payment thing, but, I hear you wanting to be fair. Admirable, but given the circumstances, that money might be better spent elsewhere.

I am actually cringing as I write this, I am sorry you are going through this again. I really want to hear about rainbows, WS becoming FWS and unicorns. I love that stuff.

I have wasted alot of time and effort trying to keep from ruffling my exH's feathers-trust me, it doesn't get you anywhere.

How about this:

STOP EMAILING ME!! Unless it is an emergency, I would appreciate it if you didn't email me.

KIM

That is much more appropriate than a misleading plan B letter that completely misses the point. This is much much more than an affair, Kim.

Expecting the worst.....the worst has already happened.

I'll plan to see a lawyer when I get back from vacation. That will be in 2 weeks. I'd like to just go have a good time & not have to think about any of this.

Car payment issue ..... I did have it sitting out in the garage. WH asked me to put out a box of checks. He didn't pick his stuff up - I guess b/c it was storming & he didn't want to get out of the car. Anyway, I went down & got the check off the stack of stuff for him.

I wish my story would have turned out differently too.....We all do, that's why we are here to begin with.

I'd like to add: "Why in the world do you think I should continue helping to pay for your car?"

"STOP E-MAILING ME!! Unless it is an emergency or has to do with an unexpected or unavoidable change in schedule regarding DS, I would apprecaite it if you didn't email me.

Kim"

Still thinking about the car payment.....For now I am going to hold onto the check.

I hope you do follow thru and speak to an attorney, Kimberly. At this point, it's protect the family first, and Kimberly's personal recovery (you've been bleeding out long enough). You will continue to think about the marriage, there is no stopping that. It's natural when you lose something to try and 'figure it out'. Try not to obsess. Find things to do with your downtime, fill your days up.

If you can set up an LSA, get the ball rolling on this. Secure your finances, separate your assets and settle as much custody/CS as you possibly can. If you cannot do this, consider filing for D.

If you want to write an email to express your desire to have not extraneous contact, then go right ahead. You don't have to call it a "Plan B" letter, so you don't confuse anyone around here. Call it your "Plan separation" letter, or whatever.

I did not write a letter this time round. I simply requested that there be no contact other than that regarding DS's activities/school/emergencies. I was specific about drop off/pickup (my son is old enough to walk out to the car and get in the house on his own). I recently got the house key back and have asked him to stay away completely (in accordance with our LSA). So far, it's been relatively quiet.

My first post to you on this thread 2 weeks ago. It rings more true now. Keep him out of your life.

Thanks SL. I will look at it this way. I've not sent an e-mail or letter yet. Just needed some time to get my head on straight (if that is at all possible).

MedC - your post is duly noted. I am going to take my vacation and put all of this out of my head for a few days. When I get back, I plan on contacting a lawyer.

I have taken enough of his Cr**p.

And I don't plan on giving him a check for the car. I will not support his single lifestyle!!!

DS just came home....be back later!

Kimberly,

I truly understand your struggle right now, as it is still pretty fresh for me. I have to say, I didn't hesitate for a moment to contact a lawyer and protect my assets. I got the ball rolling on that in '06.


Yes, indeedy. I hear you. So, try to remember this thought when you are weepy over the loss of your familiar situation. STand strong against your WH's Bullcrap. Protect yourself and your son from his bullcrap. Remember that he's got MORE bullcrap where that came from.

stay as dark as possible. accept no help from him. don't help him with finances, unless you are legally bound.

Take care of you. You matter a great deal. Look inward to see how you can become a better version of yourself.

Kim - just stopping in on a fly-by tonight. Still focusing on work and taking care of my family...

You've been in my thoughts. Dear one - please brace yourself for a reality check here.

As much as I hate to think it, I believe your husband was so desperate to get the refi out of you, he pretended reconciliation with no intention of following through on the Plan B conditions.

I think this was deliberate to get the money out of the house, PERIOD.

I hate to think this of any human being, but the facts are there and he got what he came for, so to speak, and then he got caught - which was inevitable because he didn't care to hide it as much anymore. The money was the only reason he came home.

He thinks he can come along and milk you for every dime and you'll just sucker right back into compliance.

Do you have a plan to stop him from bleeding you this way? Repo the car, sell it and any other asset to pay back the home equity loan he got out of you. It's time to fight back on this one!

You owe it to that little boy you are raising!

Hi Kim,
Sorry I havent been stopping by much, i have just caught up on your thread.
I agree with the poster who said re-evaluate you line you have drawn, have you read the raising the bar thread?
Your H sounds like he has no idea of what the real world is like.

{{{{{{{KIM}}}}}}}}

Hi SL, KA & LIL -

Thanks for checking in & for your advice & support. I will keep pushing forward in getting through this.

I am beginning to truly believe that WH came home just to get some financial things in order. He sure was a good actor though to begin with then if that was the case. I am going to try not to think on it too much though as it just drives me crazy and makes me angry.

I had a rough night last night. Ended up in the emergency room after slicing my finger on DS' snowcone machine. The blades are hidden & I thought I was reaching into an area that was safe. NOT. It was a stupid mistake and I ended up with 5 stitches after spending 4 1/2 hours at the ER. In my haste to leave my house to get there, I locked myself out of my house. So, I had to call my neighbor to see if they had a ladder so I could climb back in my house. I told her what happened & she & her H could see I was out of sorts b/c of the sliced finger. Thankfully, she offered for DS to stay with her H & son while she drove me to the ER. Then she came back at 2 AM to pick me up! What a blessing that was.

Question: WH is out of town at his class reunion. I think he told DS that he would call him & they could hook up on this game site on my computer & WH's laptop. WH called a little while ago, I didn't answer & WH didn't leave a message. I didn't tell DS who was calling.*which I feel bad for hiding that from him** Should I allow DS to answer my cell phone? I don't have a home phone.

When DS is with me, I consider that to be our time. I don't want to be bothered with WH calling while DS is with me......So this is one other thing that needs be addressed in a letter (separation letter) to WH.

Thoughts??

I do think that either parent should be able to talk to the children as long as they are not using that as an excuse to cause the other parent grief.

Options I have seen work:
1. text message saying please have child call me
2. set time for phone call everyday (I have a friend who does this, he knows it is his ex calling to say goodnight to DS so he ust hands the phone over to DS without him talking to ex)
3. get the kid a cheap pay as you go phone. I bought one for $15 and put $20 worth of minutes on it. The minutes expire after a while if you don't use them, though.

For me, ex hates it if I call the kids, I rarely do, but if I need to ask a question, I send text asking them to call.

Sorry about your finger, I have one of those sno-cone things, also. I can imagine how that hurt.

(((((((((((KIM)))))))))))) My friend, I am so sorry for what you are going through. God Bless the kindness of your neighbors.

i agree with Jean about letting your son speak to your H whenever he calls. I would give him open access that way.

Ah, those pesky parts of Plan B that have to be ironed out.

Well, when my son was younger, his dad called at around the same time each day to talk to DS, usually in the evening, around 8PM.

YOur son is a little older, so that may not be as effective, as he may want to talk to his dad at odd times, or dad may want to speak to him at odd times, since there is more to talk about with an older child. I like Jean's idea of a TM from dad requesting DS to phone him, or, if son is in the vicinity of the phone, hand it to him.

I dunno, kick it around; you'll figure out your own method.

Basically, I find it important to ensure you have done all you can to have the child/ren be accessible to their parent, outside of visitation. As a parent, I want all avenues of communication open for the other parent. What they do with that accessibility is completely up to them. In my case, Zombie(PWC) does not call on non-visitation days anymore, but if he did want to, I would make sure to have the phone charged and accesible.

Hope you have a good weekend!

(((KIM))

Your WH and mine are from the same pod. Scary. Mine faked recovery because he needed someone to take care of the house and all of our business, which I do very well at and he does not. I know how used you feel. Dark Plan B girlfriend....

Just checking in with you. oh, maybe this is vacation week. If so, I hope you and DS are having a great time!

Hi --

Leaving for vacation on Sunday -- Have just been spending more time with DS and dealing with yet MORE car trouble....I've been hunting on line for a new car.

I have a car rental for the trip so no worries about no AC or the car breaking down.

I believe I have figured out who the OW might be & where WH is staying. I have called her & she was shocked to hear from me. Mel helped me with what I should say -- short & just a Hi, this is BS. WH has told me a little about you & I just wanted to know what he has told you about me, his wife, and his son. She said she had to go to a meeting that WH had told her a little about me. but she had to go....

anyway, WH I haven't sent word to WH that I'd like him to stop e-mailing. When I do, I want to address $$ and schedule. I've just had so much other stuff to deal with this week.

WH has offered me his car 2x more and offered to watch the dog while we are gone. via e-mail. Plus sent me something for DS via e-mail.

More later.

Left message for supposed OW last night on her cell(still not 100% sure this is her #, but in WH's handwriting it has her initials & "cell" next to it) Also has her "work" # but when I called it, it sounded like a home #. Just gave her my # so when she had time to talk, we could finish her conversation.

I know WH is there. I was able to do a People Search on Yahoo, so I know where she lives. WH's car was there this afternoon.

How many times is too many to call & leave her a message? I just want to know from her what her relationship is with WH. I want to also know why WH moved out from there (in her words) in the first place. He seeemed to have the need to move out of there "all of a sudden."

I am going to call once more & leave a message with my phone #. Just in case the cell # was wrong. I don't know how old those #'s are.

More & more I think of WH as a stranger. I think of him as an enemy. It makes me quite sad to have these feelings. He has been my family for so long....and I hate letting that go. It hurts.

I think of fights that my sisters & I or my brother & I have had over the years (not too many really, but there have been some "good" ones). We always forgive each other & continue to love each other regardless. We forgive and forget. We stick together.

It is just unfathomable for me to understand still how WH could do what he did. I just don't get it. I could never do what he did. If a WS could only understand the pain it causes, the sorrow and feel what a BS feels....

Good detective work. I am sorry you had to see it.

The problem here is not the same as having a fight with your sister. You didn't have a fight with your H. Your H has been leading a secret second life for a very long time. A destructive, secret life.

Kim, I have always wondered if you EVER really knew him. This is not the same as a WS meeting and falling in love with an OP. Your H has a swinger lifestyle. Is it possible you just did not know it all this time? I know you have a very hard time seeing the BAD in people and tend to WANT to see only the good. That is a nice trait, except when it is taken to an extreme which leaves you vulnerable and unprotected.

He also is very selfish and has no empathy. You have said before that if he just could "understand" your pain it might be different. I don't agree. I think your pain only has meaning to someone who has EMPATHY. Your H has no empathy, Kim. He has been playing cat and mouse with you ever since I have known you. He seems to enjoy it.

Right now, I wonder if I ever really knew him too. We were so happy together when we got married. I don't know what to think anymore. I wonder if there really is such a thing as love sometimes.


I do know that I will eventually get over this. I need to make some new friends and start doing the things that I enjoy.
I am looking forward to my vacation tomorrow.

I left a message on OW home #. No response. I guess she is going to ignore my calls. I really feel like creating some conflict with them.

I'd also like to mail WH's mom a note, just telling her what has happened. I'd do it in a calm way, she has always been very nice to me.

Hope you all have a wonderful week. Many of you will be in my prayers!

WH called after I left a message today. Said that supposed OW mentioned that I called her & that she never called me back b/c she wasn't sure what I wanted to talk to her about. that she couldn't talk b/c she had to go to a meeting. WH said he wasn't sure either why I called her. but I could call & talk to him. then he told me to have a safe trip and to be careful. And ended it with "I love you."

Hmmmm. He's lives in a weird world. That's all i've got to say about that. He's a little off if you know what I mean!

Maybe I'll meet another single mom at the beach!!

You got that one right! Wow, he does beat to his own drummer.

I hope you and DS have a wonderful, wonderful vacation.

Hi Jean -

Had a very nice vacation! Relaxing, weather was good....waves were a bit rough, last day were riptide warnings so didn't get to play in the ocean that much.

Lots of families... husbands & wives. I tried not to let it bother me that I was there without an H. I did pretty darn good.

DS got a bad case of swimmers ear. On antibiotics - one ear was bothering him before we left and yesterday on the way home it was bothering him much more. Took him to the doc and they put him on antibiotics and ear drops.

Having WH pick up more of his stuff. Put a few more things in the garage for him & left a note stating that I would need to sell the Jeep soon. Unfortunately, it is in his name so I'll have to work that out.

I don't even bother with putting WH's name on the note and didn't sign it. I'm still go through mixed emotions - from feeling sorry for myself to anger to relief that I don't have to deal with seeing that man in this house.

It was nice being on vacation & not having to deal with agreeing on what we were going to do, where we were going to eat dinner, etc.

Well, I guess it's time to start that serious search for a D lawyer. And I need a car too....

I like to think of it (finding an attorney, LSA, splitting assets, closing accounts, etc.) as protecting my family from further harm. That is the purpose.

I hope your search goes well, Kimberly.

I'm happy for you, that you got to take that vacation. The sound of the ocean waves always make me feel soothed.

Oh, and your DS should be feeling right as rain again soon. Those drops work pretty quickly, in most cases.

Hi SL - Yep, the sounds of the ocean were exactly what I needed!

I have a couple of Lawyers that I will be calling in the next day or two. I'll meet with a few before I make a choice. I have started looking at the process in a way that I approach things at work. Maybe I can remove the emotional aspects of it somehow.

WH doesn't make that much money. When the wife makes more, does that have any reflection on the judge's decision with how much the H as to pay?

Also, WH doesn't have overnights with DS. Mainly b/c when the first A happened, he was working nights so DS couldn't stay overnight. Plus, WH would never tell me where he was staying. And, WH still hasn't told me. I figured that out on my own.

I don't know what is in DS's mind. Does he wish he had more time with his Dad? Does he feel abandoned? Is it my job to instigate more time between the two of them? I don't think it is, but I also want DS to have a Dad.

And, do I have the right to say he can't have overnights while WH is living with some woman? Even after the D??

I don't know what WH will try to ask for. Right now, WH picks up DS at the neighbors for two hours, twice a week. He gets DS every Sunday for about 5 1/2 hours.

I can't stand the thought of having DS gone every other weekend.....

What should I expect?

On another note, I got my stitches out last week. The Dr./Nurse who removed them was a man, about my age (maybe younger), but I was actually attracted to him!! That hasn't happened to me in years probably. It at least felt good to know that I have not written off the opposite sex.

DS is better - is still complaining some, but also says he feels better. He can at least hear out of that ear now!

OH. And DS said that someone stole WH's laptop. Right out of "his house." I had to work to keep a grin from sliding across my face. I just said "Oh. Well, that's too bad."

Inside I'm thinking "Hm. Well, that's what you get!"

He bought the laptop just before I found out about his second A, while I was putting my $$ together for our nice family vacation.

Your best bet is to speak to a lawyer and try to get this current schedule written up in a legal separation agreement. This sets the precedent for divorce and is USUALLY carried over. If you don't want visitation beyond what it is now, state this to your lawyer and state why, non-emotionally. Be sure that it's about your son's welfare, and not about your emotional response. Make sure you discuss physical AND legal custody.

Basically, I was told to go for everything that I wanted in the divorce, and then hash it out from there. You can always compromise down, but if you don't ask for something, no one is going to offer it up.

It is not your responsibilty to foster the relationship between father and son; it is your WH's responsibility. YOu can't MAKE him be a father.

It's okay to talk to your child about how he feels right now. I generally let my son lead that conversation. Sometimes my son will tell me he's finished talking about something, so I say, "Okay" and move the conversation on to something less stressful.

It's good to hear that your son is doing better. Those ear aches can be killer.

Honey, they may mess with our minds, but our libido's stay intact
I am really glad to hear that little gem from you.
I'm a lurker here too
[[[hugs]]]

SL - thanks so much for the tips!! The lawyers here steer you away from LS here b/c it costs just as much as a D. Should probably just go straight for a D.

It is already established that WH has been writing me a check for $$ amount every two week for the past 2 1/2 years. So, that will probably be what I will ask for. Although with inflation I should probably bump that number up a bit.

ML - I got your red flags. Loud & clear!!

lildoggie -

Spoke to first lawyer on the phone today.....Well, I think it was just the "screener" perhaps.

Anyway, she asked me a few questions & thought I could file initially as uncontested. She gave me rates for both contested & uncontested. Wow, what a huge price diff.

I asked about Separate Maintenance, she advised against. I asked how to proceed by filing with reason of adultery & she advised AGAINST it. She said that if I was going to file that way, it would become public record and the children would know about it. And that children didn't have any reason to know that "Daddy has a girlfriend." Well, that immediately marked them off my list. I was a bit surprised that she expressed an opinion like that.

I told her that I did want to have it on public record. She said that if filed that way, it would not be "peaceable" and that normally the other party begins to play dirty and act like a JackA_ _. I told her my H was already acting like a JackA_ _. She said if I wanted to file uncontested, I would need to file with "irrconcilable differences."

On to the next lawyer......

Kim,

You reminded me of my lawyer search. The one I ended up going with was reluctant to file on grounds of adultery also. She did, but just because I insisted. Then she met my exWH and she was balls to the wall after that. He made such a negative impression on her and her staff.

After dealing with exWH, not only were they happy to have the adultery on record, but they subpeonaed (spell check) the OW and OWH, which was the turning point in my divorce. ExWH became very agreeable to my terms in, oh, about five minutes after OW was served. (of course, exWH hasn't kept up his end of the deal, but that is another story).

I hope the next lawyer you speak to gives you a better feeling.

Yeah, I don't mind pushing the issue of filing based on adultery....it was the comment about the "children not knowing" that turned me off.

Do you have to go to court to have the OW subpeonaed (I'm not sure on the spelling either!) or do they do it anyway when you file based on adultery?

I've decided to just repair my car & sink more $$ into it - All the on-line articles say it is better to do that unless it is something like an engine. It finally conked out on me anyway so it would be kind of hard to trade it in at this point. Hopefully I can drive it for another year or so before getting something else.

I am detaching more & more from WH. I guess that is part of the healing process. Put some more stuff in the garage for him.

When I find myself thinking of him, I tell myself "You're doing it again. Stop it." That usually works.

The way I recall, deposing the OW and OWH was in preparation for trial. Basically, it was just putting pressure on ex to sign the papers. He didn't care for the terms of the divorce (plus I had OW named in the complaint), so he wanted to fight. He decided to stop fighting when OW was served and he signed that day.

Sorry about the car repairs but I usually just fix whatever is wrong also. If I can fix the car for less than I could replace it than I fix. But I drive a 15 year old car and love not having a car payment.

Have a great weekend, Kim

Hi Kim, I've been here since you started here, posted to you a few times.

I just want to say I'm sorry to hear WH did it again, I knew you really wanted and fought for it the marriage builders way. I think a lot of it's his ego, the entitlement, self serving selfishness that all waywards have, he never got rid of it. I'm sorry for your son whom had to endure it a second time. It's harder the second time, but you will get stronger.

Your a great woman, who never deserved such treatment. I only pray the Lord above will show your husband the depths of what he has done, and show him himself and how treacherous and selfish he really is.

And I pray you and sons personal recovery will be a miraculous and speedy one.

Lady

How's it going, Kim??

Hi Kim,

Havent seen you around for a whie and was just wondering how it was all going.



Lil

Hey Kim,

It's been nearly a month since you last checked in, whats been happening?

Hope you and your DS are ok.

Hi all -

Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts. I have had a hectic and crazy month and finally feel like things are slowing down. I haven't put anything further into locating a lawyer so hope to get back into that again too.

I found this bbq tool stuck underneathe my bushes at the front of my house a couple of weeks ago & it weirded me out. It was the tool that has a long prongs to stab larger pieces of meat. Someone had bent the tool so the end of the prong was at a 90 degree angle. I hoped that WH had left it....maybe he was using it for something. It had me VERY weirded out and I e-mailed him to find out if it was his. He said No. My alarm system is broken, so maybe I will get it fixed.....

I shouldn't have e-mailed WH, I knew it was a mistake when I sent it. I am ready for the 2 x 4's.

DS's birthday is today. WH e-mailed me b/c DS mentioned that I might be getting him a Wii. WH had the nerve to say he would share the cost of it with me. I didn't response & after another e-mail inquiring about my safety with the alarm system and the birthday present I told him it was a mistake for me to e-mail him to begin with and for him to not to e-mail me unless it was an emergency or concerning DS' behavior/schoolwork.

That stopped the e-mails.

I have also asked WH to change his mailing address to that Woman that he is staying with. This is a big step for me b/c I held back on doing that the first time he moved out. I am tired of seeing his name on the mail coming in and tired of handling getting his mail to him.

On another subject, has anyone read the book The Shack? I just finished reading it and am going to read it again. It helps to work through the questions people sometimes have for God when tragedies happen to good people. It's fictional, but the book really helped me to look at what has happened to me in a better light.

I'm still sad much of the time, and am sad today thinking that I should be celebrating Ds's birthday with the man who helped bring him into this world.

Kim

I am glad to hear from you Kim!

Happy Birthday Kim's DS

I am sorry you are in a sad period right now, but, this too, shall pass.

I recently started Divorcecare, yeah, a little late, but better late than never. They say there are two ways to go through divorce, the right way which invoves extreme pain, or the wrong way which involves excruciating pain (Doesn't that make you feel warm and fuzzy??)

Good job on the mail situation.

Sorry you are feeling sad. Be careful about the mail thing. Both WstbxH and his OW immediately had their mail changed. Unfortunately they are both stupid and managed to have ALL of our mail forwarded to their new address - mine and OWH's included. This caused me problems in particular because all of the bills had been in Wstbx's name and I was in the process of switching them to mine so there were a few that took a couple of tries. One bill that only gets paid quarterly didn't work out the first time, but I had forgotten about it since it was so rare. WstbxH kept the bills since they were being sent to him (it was just another horrible thing he did to me for no other purpose other than to hurt me more - probably impressed his OW at the same time). Eventually a collection agency caught up with me and I found out for the first time that this was going on. (all the monthly bills I had set up on automatic withdrawal so they were getting paid - just not this quarterly one).

Now even though he couldn't wait to forward his mail out of my house, that service only lasts 6 months here. I guess they figure that's enough time to get your address changed at individual places. But Wstbx did not bother to do that so after 6 months I started getting his mail again. At first I would let him know but I grew sick of it (and still a little bitter about that bill he hid on me) so now I just save it in a pile. If DS comes home on the weekend AND DS decides to visit Wstbx AND he happens to remember about the mail, it gets there. Otherwise it just sits in it's pile. I had his income tax refund for months (tee hee hee.... )

I loved the Shack! Great book.

About the change of address thing - if you know what her addres is, you can change it yourself. Go online. I think it is USPS.com if I remember right. You jsut list his name and old adress, to be changed to his new one. There is aplace ont ehre to say "Just change this one person, not everyone at this house"

I did it - and it was GREAT for me. Within just a couple fo days I was no longer getting his mail.

So now I have to make a confession about soemthing I did at the time. He had a Playboy subscrtiption that he signed up for just a few months before he left. Those disgusting magazines kept showing up in my mail box and I was sick of it. So one day a letter came in the mail from Playboy with an offer to extend your subscription for 3 more years at a lower price. I filled out the card, with his new address, checked the box that says "yes, please bill me later" and sent it.

I wanted to make sure that he and OW got those magaiznes at her house for a nice long time. And I am sure she was thrilled to see the involces coming in to pay for the 3 more years subscription!

Ok so it was an act of revenge, and at times I felt bad about it, but what the heck. It made me smile for awhile

Later, I just changed his address at USPS.com, and quit getting his mail all together.

Jean, Tabby & WOF -

Thanks for your posts -- I know the sadness thing is a rollercoaster ride...comes & go's.

In the book I mentioned before, the main character describes his pain as "The Great Sadness" something that was with him a huge part of his waking days, and even in his sleep. Even though his sadness was caused by something other than betrayal, his feelings and descriptions were much like mine.

DS had a wonderful day yesterday. I try not to watch him get in the car with WH, but peeked out the window a bit. When DS got in the car, WH & DS hugged for a very long time. I know he misses his Dad even though he never brings it up to me. And I try not to think about it.

Jean, the just don't look forward to going through more pain with the Divorce. It's like plopping pain on top of more pain.....

Tabby - thanks for the tip off on the bills. Most of the utilities are in WH's name still. I am now in the process of getting them changed. That would stink to not have the utility bills coming to me!! Other than that, nothing else is in his name. No CC's,checking account stuff.

WOF - your story about the PlayBoy subscription made me chuckle. I might go on & change his addie after I get all of the bills out of his name.

Doing DS's party tomorrow. Small gathering at the house, it will be a lot of fun!

Kim

Hi Kim,

Good to hear from you.


....while it's a good idea to acknowledge the pain and sadness ...do keep focusing and putting your energy on the good stuff and enjoying your DS...they grow up waaaay TOO SOON!

Yes Luna, they do grow up too fast. And every year I find something extra special that I love about DS. Every year there is some uniqueness about him that I discover. He is truly a special kid!

Yesterday was a beautiful day, weather was wonderful and the day was fun! 4 boys, 1 girl at the party which was PLENTY for me. Thank goodness my mom & dad were here to help. Nine year old boys are FULLLLLLL of energy.

WH got a piece of mail yesterday from an insurance company that is mine, not his so I was curious. The envelope was not really sealed......I pulled it out & there it showed 3 visits to the Therapist that we used one time right before I found out about 2nd A. One was around the date we first went, another later in the same month (July) and one in August. I have not been back to the therapist. The crazy thing is that it showed that WH is working at a different company. One that he worked at 14 years or so ago. It is bewildering. I am pretty sure WH has not changed jobs.

Could WH really be getting therapy?????????????????

Kim