I noticed in another thread about how a member feels that he can't "measure up" to OM. He didn't mean it in a sexual manner (I don't feel anyway), but that comment really struck a chord with me.

I feel that in an overall sense of value, self-worth, and basically who I am as a person...I more than measure up to OM. I know this because of the contact (although minimal) that I have had with him. The guy is a loser compared to myself.

But, one issue that I am having a hard time with is "measuring up" in the bedroom. It's easy for me to say "ya, I've seen the guy...what a fat, greasy lowlife", because I have first-hand knowledge of that aspect. I will NEVER have first-hand knowledge of the bedroom theatrics between he and WW. And, right now I feel that because they had multiple sexual encounters...and the fact that WW "enjoyed" the sex, that I am never going to "measure up" to OM.

By "measure up", I mean in all senses of the word as far as sex goes. Size, quality of sex, pleasure for her, techniques, etc...

How does a guy overcome all of this?

I would like to think that I am good in bed, and have enough experience that I can give myself some credit. But, it seems as though it wouldn't matter if I were Ron Jeremy right now (he's a porn star, for those of you who don't know him) ...I would still feel like I don't measure up to OM.

BH's, how do you/did you get past this?

If there are any WW/FWW's that have any insight to give, I'd appreciate your advice as well.

Many tire kickers coming in here.

I know it's a bit of an uncomfortable subject for some, but it's a huge subject for BH's....isn't it?

It's also a problem for BW's...at least this one anyway. I worry that I won't please Ike as much as OW did or that I won't be as good at something, which logically, I know is silly, but I can't help it. So....don't think it's just a problem for the males out there....the females feel that way also.

I'm not a BH, but I know what you're talking about. However, since my wife had a child before we were married and I know the birth father pretty well, these thoughts have crossed my mind.

A) Don't think about that. There is always going to be somebody out there who's better at sex then you are. I know it's different, but still.

B) If what we've been told is true, it's not just physical for women, they need the emotional attachment as well. So assuming the emotional attachment with OM is gone or reduced, you win.

C) Sex is never the same each time. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's just ok. You aren't going to be at your best each time. Maybe that doesn't help much, but maybe it takes some pressure off.

D) Maybe the wife can take this concern into account and give you a little extra encouragement?

E) Maybe learn a little something new to add to your arsenal in the bedroom? I hate to admit it, but I have done a little bit of research in that department in my free time, in hopes to make things better in SF, if I ever get the chance.

F) It probably took a while for your W to find you, and she selected you over all the other choices. With the OM, he was probably the only option. So odds are you have much more for her needs they he did.

Some of these would apply vice versa too I think. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

You may not want to hear from the likes of me…

I’m still not over it. (Well, not in the way you are probably thinking of.)

Actually, she did tell me he was better SF-wise, and not better any other-wise.

FWW and I were virgins on our wedding night. I have not had intercourse with anyone else, ever.

There was a period of hysterical bonding after D-Day 2 of the VLTA (and the other D-Day), but then I started to experience very graphic images of them together and I could not make it work. I tried and I tried. I even went to an IC who taught me to use what she called stop signs and directed eye movements to redirect my thinking, but all they did was remove my desire for SF altogether.

At least the female can sort of fake it, mechanically speaking. Not so for the male.

It’s very Pavlovian - I feel an urge for SF but then I quickly get images of them together and I can’t perform. I use the tricks they taught me to get rid of the images and then I am suddenly completely not interested at all, every urge is driven out along with the images, and I can’t perform either.

The embarassment is not worth it.

So, on the bright side I don’t miss it any more. No interest with anyone. I see a beautiful woman and I immediately think, ugh, sex is just a one way ticket to heartbreak. My EN for SF and wife being with OM is completely linked.

It’s been 3 1/2 years since D-Day 2 of the VLTA so I’m starting to think I will never be over it.

But, I don’t much care, either.

So maybe I am over it.


With prayers,

PS: It’s generally embarrassing to talk about this, you know. So I’m wondering if maybe if I can get past the embarrassment I might see some improvement?

It's not only BHs that feel this way, how about us BWs? I always prided myself in being the best in bed, I was always patient and understanding as well, and now, well my esteem has taken a major shattering! My F?WH says it wasn't about me, it was about him, but it sure affects me! It FEELS like it's me, no matter WHAT I tell myself! How do you get over this? I don't understand any of this, the unfairness, nothing. My girlfriend tell me any guy would give his right eye to have a wife like me, but it's not "any guy" that's affecting me, is it? It's my H! If anyone has any idea how to get their esteem back, I'd be open for suggestions...

Hmmm, well if it makes you feel better, I have to take a pill or I'm pretty useless. Part of my issue is high blood pressure medication, but there is more to it then that.

But I was also going to say, don't you think part of the attraction to the OM was that it was wrong, taboo? You can't compete with that, no body can. Even the OM can't compete when it's no longer taboo. That's a big part of why affairs fail all the time.

I get these comments all of the time as well (of course the opposite gender)...they don't make anything easier to handle, that's for sure.

Plan A your new self.

And plan B your old self.

If your H is not stepping up to his responsibility and making you the center of his life after his adultery, then you do it. You remake yourself anew. You create the new person you want to be. H can come along with you or not as he wishes.

with prayers,

W tells me that's a big reason that she enjoyed the sex. I will never measure up then, is all I think.

She can say anything to try to make me feel better about this issue, but it's like I'm listening to the teacher from Charlie Brown....blah, blah, blah......

While she is talking what I hear is this...."his d!ck is huge, he made me orgasm 12 times in an hour, we did EVERYTHING that I won't endulge in with you...over and over, I screamed his name so loud the neighbors complained to the police, etc...."

I could be needing a pill soon, myself.

Its more like this Intro,....wah wah wah wahhhhhhhhh...(this is all over my first thread back in the A days....its was Marks Manta to me during the "fog"...... )


not2fun

Thank you for mentioning that, that helps me a little.

har, OM's BW told me OM always had to pill up. FWW eventually admitted the same about him too.

I don't think a pill will help me, though. Dr said it wouldn't. My problem is up on top.

In garden variety adultery perhaps. Their affair lasted 10 years, with multiple D-Days. Their SF was like an old shoe long before I found out the first time even. But, even if this were true, it means nothing to me. What would I construct with that belief?

With prayers,

lol...sorry. Not trying to steal yout thunder, not2fun.

My memories of Charlie Brown have faded it seems...lol.

No apologies needed...In fact it brought back a good memory of that time, and there aren't many. This place was about the only place I could end up smiling and even laughing on some days. It was fun to remember because I had forgotten..... ....too bad the "other memories" of that time haven't faded as well....


not2fun

ps...and yes BW have a hard time too. Though I do think it is much harder on men since that is generally a high need of theirs.....

Well in my situation, my WH listed as his reason for his affair that he wanted to see if his *edit* would work better with someone other than me. He says it didn't, in fact it was worse, he couldn't do it, but he did play around with her. Emotional, physical, whatever, it doesn't make any of us feel any better knowing that's what they wanted and we were cast aside.
Oddly enough, he's been doing better since breaking off with her, as if the stress and depression over the affair and all of the lies that went with it, caused a lot of his problem. I've encouraged him to see a doctor and the doctor says it's stress that's caused his problem. I've always tried to be understanding and not demanding, and have shown interest in him, I really don't know what more I can do. He puts pressure on himself that isn't coming from me and says it's really hard for a man to not be able to perform...I'm sure it is...it's just as hard to have him choose someone else over his wife!
I already practice enjoying every aspect known to man with him so I honestly don't know what more I can do...I just keep on trying to help him relax and enjoy what is without worrying about what isn't...it seems to be working.

Aphelion, I figured your Dr would say something like that, and I'm sure he's right. It's for physical things more then anything else.

However, it would allow for things to happen with less stimulation, thus less mental work on your part. I'd think. It might me be somewhat of a confidence booster? I don't know. I've never taken it when I didn't plan on using it, so I don't know.

And I hate the false impression that people have about the pill. It has nothing to do with testerone levels, or desire for SF, it's all about blood flow...at least as far as the pill goes. The only real problem with it is that you have to pretty much plan everything. And it's expense. However, probably thoe only good thing about my separation is that it gave me an oppurtunity to stockpile and let insurance pay for it. They will only pay for so many.


And honestly, I think men have trouble with knowledge of an affair because they compare themselves to the OM physically. I could be wrong, but I'd think women have a need to know they ae beautiful, and having their husband go elsewhere would really damage that need.

Quote: "I will NEVER have first-hand knowledge of the bedroom theatrics between he and WW. And, right now I feel that because they had multiple sexual encounters...and the fact that WW "enjoyed" the sex, that I am never going to "measure up" to OM."

This is exactly what I'm going through now... my WW has been gone for 2 months now living on her own and spending every waking moment with the OM as far as I know. From what I know the PA part has been going on for the 2 months, the EA for 6ish months.

I have some very reserved feelings about "being" with her IF she comes back. The mental pictures of her with someone else, especaily because I know who OM is would be very difficult to overcome. I feel I can forgive her for all that she has done but can't seem to let go that WW is somewhat "blemished" or "damaged" for lack of better words...

Hopefully I can find some info in this post too?

Well my husband picked someone nine years younger than me and a tiny size 5...I didn't see her but he called her a "hot chick". I could have done without that piece of information. You bet it's damaging to us. I can't compete with someone nine years younger than me no matter how attractive I am!

And yes there are pills to help even with stress, my husband tried one once and it helped somewhat although not totally, but it upset his stomach so he didn't want them anymore. But I would think it'd help just knowing it's there to take if you want to. I know the pressure is tremendous for guys...and just for the records, although most women have "faked it", I never have, I believe in honesty and don't see how anything good can come from dishonesty, no matter how well intended.

Wow, that sounds pretty much a lame excuse.


What's the harm in trying? it's not like they announce it when you pick up your pills at the pharmacy. Although I was kind of embarrassed the other day when I realized I looked rather pathetic picking up viagra and Anti-depressants. lol.


Does he know that he can make you happy with something other then what's down there? I'm just wondering if some of the pressure was off to perform that way, and gained confidence elsewhere, it might be easy.

And a man doesn't have to be up to have his fun. Does he know that? I'm wondering if that would take some pressure off, if he had a night where he didn't have to do anything.



Yea, give him time. Like I said, part of my stuff is probably psychological too. I've been considering working out more as maybe that could give a pschological boost. I think a part of me still has that good church person mindset too.

I have heard other BHs express the same thing, I think that is an issue that they struggle with more than BWs. I get mental images that tear me up inside, yet it's not the feeling that my WH is "damaged" so much as the feeling that he's not who I thought I was married to and nothing has been as it seemed...the M is not what I'd thought and hoped for. I still don't know how to get past that but then it's only been a couple of months since I found out. I take a day at a time and "wait and see".

Wait, are you saying fundamental morals might be at the root of the problem?

hmmm, can I hire prostitutes to help me get past this? They don't much care about performance or feelings or technique. They just want the money. That I have.

eh, I'd disagree with that. Hard to say why, but the maturity is a huge difference. I'd imagine your husband feels similar.



I don't see the point of faking it, especially in marriage. I mean if one of you finishes first, it should be the other ones duty to keep it going till the other one is done. That can't happen if you're faking it. You're only cheating yourself.

[/quote]

Does he know that he can make you happy with something other then what's down there? I'm just wondering if some of the pressure was off to perform that way, and gained confidence elsewhere, it might be easy.
[/quote]
Yes, he's actually quite expert at satisfying me in other ways and I him, so that's why I don't understand any of this. If I wasn't like I am, I could maybe understand it, but this whole thing seems dam-d unfair to me! I can't help but feel it's just an excuse to eat cake!

Not at all. I'm saying that if you spent most of your life thinking that sex is something to be avoided, it can be difficult to just flip the switch when you're married. And I wasn't refering to you in any way.

And I assume you're sarcastic regarding prostitution.

Does he know that he can make you happy with something other then what's down there? I'm just wondering if some of the pressure was off to perform that way, and gained confidence elsewhere, it might be easy.
[/quote]
Yes, he's actually quite expert at satisfying me in other ways and I him, so that's why I don't understand any of this. If I wasn't like I am, I could maybe understand it, but this whole thing seems dam-d unfair to me! I can't help but feel it's just an excuse to eat cake! [/quote]

hmmm, this is maybe getting too personal, but if it helps...

Does it seem easier for him to get hard with other things? That is the case for me. And it's not that I don't prefer the real thing. I couldn't say I know why for sure, but I wonder if it's because with other things, there is more constant stimulus on the right spots? So if that's true, maybe different positions, or something else, may help?

V4G,

You are very early in this wringer called recovery. Take it slow, give yourself time.

It will get better. But remember, they don’t call it the rollercoaster for nothing.

I suspect your most angry phase is yet to come. Be ready for it.

well, mostly, yes, indeed, certainly...


ed: I do sometimes wonder what the experts could do to help...

edd: certified, grade a, inspected experts of course...

eddd: just kidding...refer back to the morals question.

I know exactly what you mean! Ike picked someone who is 11 years younger than me and has never born children, so you know....Luckily, I look about that age though hahah

well i think it is harder for a bh then a a bw in the sense that in most relationships it is the man who is supposed to please the woman. this adds additional pressure to the male roll.

if he is able to push all the right buttons most women will respond physically once started.

the prostitution deal is a no go for me personally. i tried that when i was younger and had a hard time working it out. once yourealize that the only thing they are interested in is the mighty buck it takes to much out of the equation.

another issue that comes into play in mho is the length of the PA. in my case it was fairly short maybe 2 - 5 encounters. i can not even begin to imagine how some of you get past the long term A. I barely managed to move on after a short one.

without trying to sound to bold i felt (as i think most men feel) that i was the cats meow when it came to bedroom performance.

what helped me was things like the music i listened to. i stopped listening to all the mushy love song stuff and started listening to the "who's cryin now" stuff. this enabled me to carry a more secure attitude into the bedroom.

i also carried the attitude that i was going to do the deed to her like no one else. stand her on her head and spin her, bend her every which way but loose, and lock the bedroom door every single second that i had any spare time.

my intent was to give it to her so much and so hard that it would be hard for her to walk.

i have always been the kind of person that was looking for a new trick to add to my bag. so i found a couple of those to throw in also.

the om in our case was 15 years younger then i was so i felt i had to prove myself to her. she did tell me of one position that he used and i have never had sex with her in that way again. i don't think it still bothers me now but it has just never been on the menu recently.

maybe it's just about the attitude you carry inside yourself. you ned to find that old confidense again. you need to know that you can ring her bell whenever you choose. kwim?

I respectfully disagree. I am a full participant in the activities, and have tried essentially everything there is to offer, although some were a one off.

WH has been home 10 days and last night was the first time I could truly put an F in SF. It has been awkward, fumbling, rythmless and emotionaless up till then.

My mental issues are not how well he may or may not have been with OW althouht it pisses me off someone else knows what I always felt was 'our' secret. My biggest problem is we have been together for most of my adult life. Yes I had a few other men before we married, no more than he did pre-me. I have been exclusivly his for coming up 15 years. She on the other hand has serial relationships, several each year. She is not exclusive. In fact to me, her 'female part' is akin to a sewer.
MY husband stuck his d*ck in something I wouldnt want anyone to put their hand in.

Thats my big problem. Is this typical BW thinking?

i understand about putting his wacker where you wouldn't toouch with a 10' pole. i also know our om and can't for the life of me understand why my w would even give a thought of boinking this walking cespool.

and both my w and myself had had plenty of pre M experience. we were exclusive for over 20 yrs at the time of her A.

i think mental visuals and gross thoughts haunt both men and women. what i was refering to was that i (assuming here, i know dangerous) think in most relationships it is the male who initiates sexual intimacy.

with that in mind my thinking was that if my w initiated SF with me it would have been easier for me to respond then actually be the initiator. especially at the time just post d-day and early recovery.

Yeah, I guess you heard that somewhere but no one ever told my x. Seems like I was always told it was the opposite.....it was the woman's role to please the man.

How come x never bothered, in all those years, to even try to please or satisfy me? Y'all musta read different books.

lildoggie,


She is not exclusive. In fact to me, her 'female part' is akin to a sewer.
MY husband stuck his d*ck in something I wouldnt want anyone to put their hand in.


I won't get into whether it's harder for a BH or a BW, but this comment you make about OW speaks volumes.

You seem to be using very harsh words regarding the OW and her body parts, but not your WH. Now, take these very comments that you make about OW and her "female part"....now imagine that you are a BH and that very female part that you describe belongs to your WW.

I can't speak for all BH's. But I'm guessing for a certain amount of time after dday, this is how most of us feel/felt. For how long, who knows.

I'm amazed at the way men think. I think it is harder for men than women. The sex part of the affair didn't bother me half as much as the intimacy part.

There is nothing like married lovemaking, being with a man that you love and trust, where there is intimacy and a history.

Women that think sex with their affair partner was EXCITING are sick. A donkey show in Tijuana is exciting because it is forbidden.

Like Mel says, it is like animals rutting, maybe a high for some, but so empty.

I'm concerned that any woman who thinks that sex with their affair partner (that probably dumped them) is better than with the husband of their youth, is still exhibiting some WW tendencies.

Hopefully some FWW's will check in.

Ok a FWW check here...

It wasnt attraction over how he performed or looked. Frankly my DH is WAY better in the SF department then he probally ever will be.

When I came back to H we had the wonderful make up sex. I think it wasnt till I knew I had gained complete forgiveness from him that we have enjoyed the married lovemaking, nothing like two people coming together as one

OK maybe TMI sorry

While I have to say that I never did have sex with my former wife after she left to have her affair, I did have some issues after the divorce with my current wife.

It just took time and getting over myself and concentrating on pleasing her.

I found that I'm very aroused by all the sensory experiences associated with her getting aroused. The sounds, the increased breathing, they way her body moves, the way she wants me.

I am on BP medicine, but I no longer find that to be a problem.

So while I don't know what it's like to try it with a FWW, I do know my confidence was shaken. I would have thought that years of no sex would have produced a different result, but it was difficult at first.

I don't know if this helps, but as long as you are as healthy as you can be, if you can get your head in the game, I think things will begin to work.

Part of getting your head in the game is controlling your thoughts.

I used harsh words becayuse I have harsh feelings aboutOW, and frankly they were the politest I could come up with. I dont feel a whole better about WH body parts either, thats why he has to have an STI test. The way I feel had a huge impact on sex with him, I ws the one who felt awkward etc. MY 'female part' is a whole lot less used, and shared around than OW.
Yes I imagine many BS have similar feelings, I just wanted it noted that a degree of disgust for the WS is not the sole domain of the BH

I have not had a problem in that department for a couple of reasons.

First, I didn't go through the usual false recovery, betrayal, false recovery, betrayal .....etc cycle.That scenario is incredibly damaging to one's ego and self respect. I gave her one chance to change as she had promised. That promise lasted three days with renewed contact. I was out of there and as it turned out, never to return.

Secondly, even though it does hurt when I think of what I thought was my wife involved in a hide the banana with another guy, I have never been a very jealous person. She would often tease me that she would leave me for a past boyfriend. My usual reaction was "go for it". All my life I have known that if a person didn't want me that there was absolutely nothing I could do to prevent it. Except going crazy worrying about it.

Third and most importantly, I lost all my respect for her. Every relationship she has been in since the original A, she has played the role of the OW. From breaking up long term relationships, to engaged couples and finally her latest acquisition ...a married man with two children that she just nurtured through his divorce. If you throw in finding out about a prior M, several abortions and playing a role in our godson's parent's breakup, the hardest realization in my post breakup is the simple fact that I was married to a skank. I know that sounds harsh and clouded by anger but it really is just a simple unemotional fact.

Make no mistake, I was deeply in love with my delusion of my Ex and still mourn my M's demise but graphic details are not part of that mourning or of my sexual identity.

Can some of the women help me understand this?

When I talk to some of my male friends or if you listen to locker room talk, I get the sense that sex for men is a huge driver and the physical nature of the act plays a large part in the experinence. I am of the impression that the mere physical release can be a huge motivator. What I am suggesting is men do not seem to have as significant a need for emotional intimacy or connection in order to complete the act.

Now I am wondering how it is for women? Is the need for emotional intimacy the overriding factor? As one person described to me the physical is the easy part once the emotional intimacy is established. I am trying to understand the sequence of events in the womans mind.

My wife is having an emotional affair with OM, I am pretty sure it has not gone physical yet. But once that emotional bond is established it seems to me that the physical cannot be far behind.

What is it that causes a woman to participate in an affair?
What are the triggers for a woman?
Is physical appearance a big factor?
Is it the excitment of tasting forbidden fruit?
Is it the emotional bond over time that leads to an affair?

Please help me understand so I can hopefully inoculate my marriage from this ever happening again.

Hi Introvert

Interesting question.

In my case when Squid was in her affair pomp she joked to me in front of her affair-enabling friend that "its not the size its what you do with it". Praising OM. This was reinforced by OMs' GF when I spoke with her that OM is no sexual leviathan and in fact he admitted to ED and PE during his A with Squid.

However it is the illicit , exciting nature of affair sex that makes it "great" not any attribute of either partner.

I am younger, taller, bigger stronger, more handsome, better endowed and "longer lasting" than OM. But none of that makes any difference to how hurt I am because she chose to allow him inside her and she shouldn't have.

Like Aphelion I have never had sex with anyone but Squid. AFAIK she has only had sex with me and now OM.

I admit to an unhealthy valuing of lifelong monogamy, and its loss still hurts me now. I am the polar opposite to Believer in that I wasn't nearly so concerned about Squids EA component as the PA. Our SF is often ruined by movies and thoughts even no four years in.

I have no advice, when I find a way to handle this I'll pass it on.

It seems that me that both men and women engage in activity for emotional attachment as well as physical enjoyment. Where the differ is in how much they need in one department or the other. Men typical are more physical with less emotional, and vice versa, but not always so. There are women out there who don't need much emotional attachment, they are more interested in the physical side, just like a typical guy. Then there are guys who can't just sleep with anyone, they want it to me more then that.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if my wife was upset at me for something, I could tell she wasn't feeling all the great about me emotional, I'd be hestitant to have sex with her. I think know it's not so much about making love to me, as it is just having sex with someone. I just happen to be her husband and available at the time. I imagine there are guys that wouldn't care, not that they'd ignore the emotional issue, but it wouldn't cause them hesitation.

And I imagine most women wouldn't want sex with their husband if they were having issues with him. Maybe not all, and maybe they would engage to meet their husband's EN, and maybe improve the relationship overall.

SF competitiveness was a big thing with me after the A ended. In one of my posts from the old days I expressed the desire to ensure that I had created the 'best' SF experience for my W ever. I was told at the time that this was difficult. I knew that.

First, I never really asked any questions about their SF. I did not want the images and hangups that would come with that. I already knew that there were 3 things that suddenly she wanted me to do. I knew that she learned from OM. Over time I have learned those 3 things are not the biggest deal. I also learned there was only really 1 week of the A where their sex was any good. He was quite a pervert and she rebuffed anything kinky. Soon he was not even able to 'get it up'. He attributed it to guilt and she bought into it, being in the fog.

Anyway, I am not ashamed to admit that I did a massive research campaign on improving my techniques in the area of SF. Yes, I even paid for some of the stuff out there. After all the research, I did see some level of improvement. I had always tried to make sure she was satisfied, but I began to see her satisfied. There were some very good results and my confidence grew. A few times during this she told me that the OM wasn't really that great. She realized it was the 'taboo' nature of it, not his abilities.

Then in spite of all the research and paying for information, a few weeks ago I stumbled upon something on my own. I think all women are different, so I think I basically stumbled on her mega-button by chance. Though I had thought I had seen some strong reactions from her before, this one was totally explosive and went on and on and on. When it was over it took her several minutes to even be able to talk or move. She finally said 'OMG, that was the BEST EVER. It was insane.' In my mind I smiled and said to myself 'Mission Accomplished'.

I write that to make a point. I am not shallow about SF. It is very deep physically, emotionally and spiritually with me. I did, however, want very much to hear those words and it happened. I have tried to recreate that seismic response again since and have not quite done it. My newfound technique does result in a consistent great result, but not quite that night. I think there were several other factors that contributed. The right words during the day to build sexual tension. A good day at work. The right mood. No distractions. The right songs playing on the radio during.

Sorry for the long ramble. Not sure if it helps, but my main point is you have to trailblaze your own SF confidence. There are many, many things to be learned and applied that do not involve anything kinky.

Hey ladies,

Don't let this bother you at all.....In my sitch, the COW is 10yrs OLDER. Try to get around THAT one....they took MANY pictures of her. And at first glance, I thought she was pretty (thought that after cday anyway, but on cday my first though when I saw her was "OMG...your old"), she has an amazing body, and some great fake knockers. Then I saw them again awhile later, and this time around I saw her stretch marks, some cellulite, and the wrinkles.....anyway, her "image" is not quite as high as I once thought....but still to know that my WS went after a "old" bag, especially when PA is probably 1 or 2 on his EN'S, is still a hard pill to swallow.....

Anyway, just don't concentrate on it. KNOW in you heart and mind that YOU are WAY better than her, because no matter how beautiful and "unbleamished" she may seem, we all know her insides aren't.....

And remember, those "childbearing" marks are badges of honor. Especially when they were earned having your WS's child.....

not2fun

OMG, this was one of the biggest issues I had to deal with. In my sitch, OM was a typical "bad-boy", player-type, the type you date and have fun with, but don't marry nor bring home to meet mom and dad (though WW at one time talked of marriage). On the other hand, I am the classic "nice-guy" whom the girl would marry after their fun with the bad boy.

Anyway, while FWW was still in the midst of her fog, I was foolish enough to ask what was so special about this parolled ex-felon drug dealer. She then described their love-making sessions, up to 5 hours continuous, in which he smoothly moved her between just about every position described in every book, (him on top, her on top, behind, facing forward, facing backward, seating, kneeling, standing, on her back, on her stomach, on her side, and all combinations and permutations thereof) and entered her, both orally and genitally, in every one of her orifices. She also said that he said she was, of all the women he's had, the best *edit he's had.

Cripes, I'm trembling just typing this, even though this was months ago.

I, on the other hand, generally stick with one of 3 positions, with occaisional oral sex to spice it up.

FWW then told me that's what she's always wanted from me, and that it should come as natural and smoothly as it had from OM.

I then pointed out the dilemma FWW placed me in. She always acknowledged that she married me because I was cute, niave and 'safe' and not a player and not like all the other guys who were always pawing all over her, as she said. So, I point out its rather hard to be attracted to and expect me to be innocent, and yet also expect me to have the technique of an experienced player, especially when she expects the man to lead on his own, without having her to suggest what she wants.

She then had the nerve to say OM wasn't that experienced, and it just came naturally to him.



Yea, right.

Anyway, for a long time lovemaking was nearly impossible because, each time I saw FWW nude, I was then haunted with images of her and him together.

Once that was overcome, then the next hurdle was my low self esteem and insecurities I was now priviledges to have been given.

As the fog lifted and WW ended the A and wanted to reconcile, she realized what had been done. She first assured me repeatedly that she was not judging or comparing me. She also pointed out, regardless of his technique, she had many more O's with me than him. She also pointed out that, except in the bed, that I had OM beat in almost every other quality.

She also got over her reluctance of expressing what made her feel good and what she wanted. However, the only hangup was that I knew that most of the things she was suggesting were things that OM did on or to her. That took a while to get over, as well. Fortunately (I guess) is that FWW was drunk many times when we started making love again, and didn't remember she had told me things, so later, when I started doing certain positions, she asked me where I learned that. I told her I was just relaxing and doing what came natural.

So, I guess in sum, to get through such a thing, WW needs to be sensitive to the insecurities just placed on BH, to clearly show that she is not comparing and judging, and to be willing to suggest what she wants without being (too) obvious as to where she learned of it.

P.S.: She also did point out that I am bigger

Emotion is a key drawing factor to women. Physical is not as important. "size" is not important. I just made the mistake of attempting to watch a movie about John Holmes...it disgusted me. The guy thought since he had a 14" *edit* he was god. I thought it was a definite B grade movie that lacked any substance, about a guy who was in love with himself and I couldn't figure out why. So any of you guys who think it's about that, get over it. I say that to be kind...size isn't important. Excitement of tasting forbidden fruit probably enters in to most affairs, whether men or women. After all, they don't have to deal with the realities of life, just the fun parts. Triggers...I'd say probably a man paying attention to her, treating her as if she mattered...it comes back to meeting emotional needs (HNHN). You're right, if your wife is having an EA, the PA probably isn't far behind. However, women aren't cut out like cookie cutters, I'm speaking for women I know, I'm sure there are some out there that are just in it for the physical...just not the women I know.

I think you should edit your post for language. I don't see that the use of the word "D***" is really needed.

I don't think most women would appreciate the use of the word "c***" on this site.

I don't mind the word.

which one?

I mind them both.

The D word. The C word is a little more derogatory than the D word. The C word is used to basically insult women to the greatest extent...the D word, not so much. I don't know many women who deserve to be called the C word, but I know a lot of guys that are *edit*.

Besides, she used the word as a description of John Holmes' penis, not to insult anyone.

The owners of this site as well as the TOS prohibit the use of profanity.

It is not up for debate.

c00per

A reminder:


If you think your word choice might be profane - try a substitute word.

c00per

I HATE that word and I would be offended, unless it is used to decribe the OW....then by all means call a spade a spade.....


not2fun

I've thought and thought on how to explain in words the difference between affair sex and married sex, and I continue to come up wanting...I just don't think that I will be able to convey what I want to, especially without getting graphic, but I'm gonna give it a shot...

Affair sex is mostly in your head...It's more about the "build-up"...there are a lot of conversations between the adultery partners about it, and so there is much anticipation...the conversations about it serve as a form of foreplay really...the problem is though, the actual sex is always lacking compared to the fantasy...That goes unspoken though, and you do all that you can in your head to try and make the experience match the fantasy...it still falls short...

I distinctly remember thinking that Mr. W was better, but I also remember trying very hard to push that thought to the back of my mind...it interfered with the fantasy, and you don't want any part of that during an affair...You sure as heck can't tell the OP to "do it this way like my spouse does"...

As far as regaining confidence goes, I can only say that Mr. W amazes me...He never seemed to let it shake him, and I was BRUTAL with my descriptions I am ashamed to say...Mr. W almost seemed to take it as a challenge, as bizarre as that may sound...He became unbelievable...a man possessed in some ways...He was already better than OM, and still he stepped up his game...I remember him telling me that I did not define his masculinity, that that was only for him to define...I think he just looked in the mirror and KNEW that he was the better man and went about his business, OM be damned...I also remember him telling me during one of my "fog diatribes" that he too could go out and essentially have "hot monkey sex" with someone new...put his best foot forward and all that jazz...that it was not the big deal that I thought it was...He was right...very, very right...

Mr. W and I were just discussing this before I posted it, and we both agree that our sex life now is far more fulfilling than it has ever been...May that bring hope to those of you still deeply hurting where this issue is concerned...

Really, there is no question that marital sex is far better, both physically and emotionally...

Mrs. W

they both are a profane term for a body part. Whatever you think about them....that is the meaning of the words.

The owners of this site as well as the TOS prohibit the use of profanity.

It is not up for debate.

c00per

Let's be adults here shall we ...

Seriously, is there anything in any of these posts as vulgar, profane, and obscene as the actual REALITY of what all of us have faced.

This is a subject that causes emotions to run RAW, and I fully understand ANYONE who chooses to express themselves with a select "4 letter word" or two every now and then.

I can handle the descriptive "words" ... its the wayward "acts" that are truly offensive, but we HAVE to deal with those ... so are the "words" really that important?

IMHO, if you're mature enough to discuss the subject, the descriptive words are just part of the package.

I agree.

Since it is usually teenagers that see the need to use such words to get their point across, I suggest we be adult and use words that are not so colorful.

Please email me if you require further discussion of how this board is moderated. Continue this discussion withour profanity - which violates TOS and the desires of the owners of this site.

c00per

*edit*

Are you for real medc?

All of the 2x4's that you swing, and the "D" word bothers you? Really?

yes, really. To me it is the same as the C word. No difference...except for the gender it describes.

Then again, I am a dad that has NEVER cursed in front of his kid. Perhaps I just have a different tolerance for profanity.

I voiced my view, the mods made a decision. It shouldn't be too hard to abide by.

Either you are the owner that runs this site, in disguise, or you are the only man I know that is offended by that word.

I understand the "C" word, but the "D" word is used all the time...probably more in a joking sense than an insulting sense...unlike "C".

I'm surprised by your reaction....but, to each his own.

edit: Thanks for the T/J. Maybe if we can stop disecting every "borderline" curse word and making an issue about it, we can continue an adult-esque conversation...ABOUT SEX !!!!!

I understand where you are coming from.

The hypocrisy of one of those words vs. the other makes no sense to me though. I can tell you that I know a lot of men that would be offended by the use of that word in this setting.

sheesh, how sheltered am I? I cannot figure out what the D and C words are.

Can I have a hint? (Without violating TOS, I mean).

Starts with a D...

See my edit. I'm done with this silliness.

***Ahem***

This matter has been decided. There is no need for further discussion about it. Either continue to discuss the topic of the thread without the use of profanity or the thread will have to be locked.

Thank you for your cooperation.

***edit***

I have a hard time believing this. Of course, no woman who loves a man is going to tell him it's not big enough, as it's going to hurt his confidence and there is pretty much nothing he can do about it. That being said, my understanding is that size isn't everything, and could maybe be a hindrince in some positions. Without getting too graphic, arent't there certain places on the inside that are more sensitive then others, and bring more pleasure? I would think with more size, your chances of hitting that, and maybe serveral spots at the same time, is higher. But with a not so big size, you can still get it from the right angle. Does that make sense? And aren't some women more turned on by touching on the outside then on the inside?

From what I've heard too, some women don't like it too big as it can be painful. Maybe it's more a factor of just fitting right? Maybe it also has to do with preference?

In some ways it's best to for guys to not even worry about it, since we don't have much control. It's not like implants are available or anything. I would think the downside is that if a woman has a definite size preference, she probably won't know her loved ones size until she's already committed.

good post Mrs. W.

Thanks medc...I figured it was gonna get lost in all the "shuffle"...hopefully it may help someone...

Mrs. W

Not lost in the shuffle....I read it. Thanks for the great post.

This is very close to my experience. Sounds like same OM even. Her excruciatingly frank descriptions of their decade of hot sex in exotic cities all over the world shut down my libido entirely.

Neither FWW nor I knew much about sex before our wedding night. I was proud we were doing very well. She was happy. She told me so. Never once was I not making love, not once just having sex.

It was very painful to hear her say she felt raped when we had sex, after she met OM of course. Sure was shocking news to me. He was the brutal S&M guy. I remember seeing bruises on her every once in a while she would not discuss.

Like your wife she also changed her tune later when she wanted to reconcile. He suddenly wasn’t so good. Yeah right. Like now I should believe her. Right.

I am still in this place. Years later.

My self esteem has recovered nicely. Just not my libido.

She keeps score? This was a left handed compliment indeed.

In my experience, adulterers are of a class of liars such that they can say almost anything and maybe even believe it themselves. No matter what they say about comparing, they in fact do. I mean, come on – would you somehow not remember who was better? Would you tell your current partner someone else was better? Oh, wait, yeah, they already did tell us that.

I got the same. Likely just another lie.

And as usual, I completely agree with Mrs W. It was my experience also. The build up and "we're doing something we shouldn't do" aspect makes it seem way better than it really is...then when it doesn't compare to the marital intimacy, the WS begins lying to his/herself over and over to validate and perpetuate the fantasy. This aspect of it must be the toughest part to overcome for the BS, but really, it is usually nothing like the BS pictures. For that matter it is nothing like the WS pictures, either! Like all other aspects of a PA, when the reality of the situation hits the WS, it is disgusting to think about.

W2S had very little trouble overcoming this as well (as far as "performance" goes---his brain is a completely different story, however). He has always been confidant about his sexuality and still is...

This issue really has to make its way through the pain and find it way back to self-confidance. While the A may temporarily shatter your self-esteem, finding it again will be so empowering for you guys. TAKE BACK WHAT WAS TAKEN FROM YOU!

I know...easy for me to say...I'll shut up now. lol.

It is not possible. I can never get back what Squid gave to OM. It stopped existing once she gave it away.

All that remains is the space it used to occupy.

Great posts from Mrs. W and Lala......it would be nice if a FWH would come in a chime in about this though.....


not2fun

I agree with Bob.

FWW didn't just give it to OM. She and he then spent considerable time and energy taking it apart, playing around with the pieces and throwing it away bit by bit.

It no longer exists.

Perhaps I might find something new to replace it with. Still looking.

But what was is no longer.

It is not possible to take it back.

I can only reiterate what Mrs W and LaLa have said.

The OM was very inexperienced, despite having been married for over 30 years. He was a prude. I had to bite my tongue to stop saying derogatory things about the SF, but sometimes they slipped out. The excitement came from the fact that it was forbidden and the attention I was getting.

My H reclaimed me the morning of d-day. D-day was at 3.00am. He has a great deal of self esteem and has never doubted his sexual ability. (I am trying not to speak for him but he did tell me this).

My H and I have shared just about every derivation of SF there is because we know each other intimately and we aren't afraid to be ourselves.

The thing that upset my H terribly was the emotional side of my A. He hated the fact that someone else had kissed me. He hated the fact that I had shared intimacy (not just sexual) with someone else.

My H is a very talented artist and one of the things he did to reclaim me was to paint me (a nude). It was a very bonding and intimate experience for both of us.

Our sex life didn't falter once after the A. Not once.

Go back and re-read that paragraph that sentence was found. Lala was talking about self-esteem......and yes YOU CAN TAKE IT BACK.....

"No one can make you feel inferior without your permission"....Elenor Roosevelt

not2fun

TTIUWP

LOL, I can't work the letters out.

My self esteem is a complicated thing these days. It was very simple once.

Click here for explanation

ROTFLMAO!!!

Now THAT would send the mods right over the edge, eh?

Mrs. W

Is your H here? I really hope what you are saying is true, for his sake, but I have a feeling there has to be some underlying issues that he has regarding his sexual confidence post dday...as opposed to pre d-day. I had sex with my W promptly after dday, and we've been having regular sex ever since...that doesn't mean I'm not having issues about it...I mean, I started this thread lol.

I will say that our sex life also did not wane after the affair...

Mr. W does post here though he is really busy lately and his posts are not as frequent...I'll see if he has time to chime in...

Mr. W is a very confident guy...always was...the affair knocked him down for only a very short time...he didn't miss too many steps before remembering exactly who he was...

Our situation differs from that of BobPure and Aphelion, in that Mr. W and I were not virgins when we met...OM was an ex-boyfriend of mine...I think that part actually helped in our recovery as odd as it may seem...In other words, I had a past sexual history with OM that pre-dated my meeting Mr. W...In recovery mentally it wasn't as hard to overcome since OM had "already been there before"...Egads that sounds horrible!!! Tis true, nonetheless...

Mrs. W

gonna bump this up so some FWW might see it....(not sure who on here is a FWH other than the newbies that have crept up lately...and they are not true "F" yet....)

not2fun

Intro, no my H isn't here. The fallout from the A WAS totally devestating for my H but, sexually, it was both a bonding thing for us and a reclaiming/recovery thing. Our sex life had/has always been wonderful. Even in MC just after d-day we both put 10 when our MC asked us about our sex life. Other things weren't 10's. For my H, the betrayal of trust and the thought I was capable of such a thing as an A, were far worse. I'd be very foolish if I thought my H didn't suffer terribly during those first SF encounters after d-day. I know if I'd refused him it would have been the end of the world.

But those moments of intimacy were so important to us. If we'd lost that, we'd never have recovered.

As Mrs W has said about her and Mr W, neither my H nor I were virgins when we met. My A was also with my old h/s boyfriend (as was Mrs W's) and he was a known quanitity to my H.

tst is a terrific FWH...Hopefully he'll show up and offer his perspective...(He is the FWH of SexyMamaBear)

Mrs. W

Bob,

Mrs. W,
I just wanted to take a moment and say that I really admire your candor in discussing your affair. You give me hope that someday, my FWW will be able to openly discuss her affair and we can both learn a great deal from it. I think right now she believes that discussing the A only serves to resurrect the pain, but I believe that discussing it is the only long term way of diffusing that pain and truely earning the badge "recovered". You set the bar high, and Mr. W is lucky to have someone so dedicated to the marriage.

Bob Pure said:

Aph said:

Guys, I am very sorry you feel this way. I heard a quote once, although I can't remember who said it and can't seem to find it on Google, either (lol), but it went something like- "Whatever you think you can, or think you can't, do...YOU'RE RIGHT!"

Noone can take away your self-esteem. And even though this discussion is about intimacy, self-esteem has everything to do with it. I know you say your SE is just fine, Aph, but your words tell a different story. You have talked about being a geek and this and that (the discussion about the slide-rulers was hilarious), but obviously your intellect has served you very well in your life. Maybe the fact that you and Bob were virgins when you married has a lot to do with it as well. It is a wonderful thing, no doubt, but maybe it has made it that much harder for you guys to move past this particular part of the A. Marital intimacy is supposed to be sacred to all, but marrying as a virgin goes even a little further, IMO. It is a bond that you have ONLY shared with your spouses, and therefore makes it that much harder to overcome the devastation of that exclusive bond.

Maybe the only way to overcome it is to find the strength within yourselves to re-create what was lost. Obviously, you are no longer your wives' one-and-only...but that doesn't take away YOUR worth. What YOU brought to the M you have honored. Is there some peace to be found there?

Andrew...

Thank you for your post, I really appreciate it...

Interestingly enough, Mr. W and I just discussed this aspect of our recovery the other day...

I think it has played out as it has for two reasons...

1. Mr. W always provided me with a safe environment in which to share.

and

2. Growing up, my father had Bipolar Disorder and I watched in horror what sweeping things under the rug wrought...Instinctively I knew how damaging that was to do, thus that was never a consideration for us.

Til this day we discuss EVERYTHING openly...It works very well for us...

I too hope that your wife comes to understand how important this is...

Mrs. W

In context I thought you were writing about lost sexual intimacy and exclusivity, not SE.

It may not appear so around here, but my SE is pretty darn good. Yes, there was a big dip for a long time after each D-Day of each affair. But … I know what I am worth to me. I even know what I am worth to FWW. (An EN meeter, of course.) But that is OK. I also have many other interests now.

EXPLORE THIS, APH...I implore you! I sense a deep sadness in you... emptiness, anger, bitterness. It does not have to be this way!! Don't slough it off and say things about "loving detachment" and "other interests" as if it is satisying to you in the way a marriage should be.

GRR...I'll get off it now...you and Bob get to me in a way that I can't explain. Just want to help you so much. Don't know how, though...

Edited to add...Bob seems to be doing much better, though!

I forgot (haven't had much interaction with the FWH...I know there are a couple, but not many...)....maybe I'll put a shout-out to him.....

Thanks Mrs. W.....

not2fun

Aphelion...

I read you say something about not being able to bring up the affair with your wife...Why not? What happens if you do?

Mrs. W

HI NOT2!!!

How ya doin today, sista?

BTW, intro...where did ya go?? It's all about YOU, too! LOL!

HEY GIRLFRIEND......I am okay...I was a little PO'd at WS earlier, but I am getting over it....him having to fix us and his business is hard on us both. Not enough hours in the day for all of it. It will be easier for me though in a couple of weeks when I go back to work. Give me something more to do during the day. Right now, I would rather him be home a 5 every night and take over when he does get home, but alas, in his line of business it doesn't work that way....oh well....how are you?? I almost thought about busting W2S chops on the music thread. I may still do that.....

not2fun

AGREE!!!!!

Mrs. W

I'm around...just playing some guitar with the computer on lol.

I did stop in the "W says A is over - but contact with OM persists" thread...I feel bad, but I just 2x4'd a fellow BH. Maybe you guys can help him out a little more gracefully than myself lol.

Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't know what to think! I was a little stunned as he keeps all of that anger away from me...has for some time. I totally understand his anger, though...but I do wish he would come out and straight-up tell me (or you all here) ABOUT his anger instead of having it come out like that.

BUT...I spoke to him and he says he was working out, heard the song, and thought it would be a good one for BSs as an anger-reliever. I LOVE Disturbed...have seen them front row (although I got my old A$$ kicked in the mosh pit-lol!) and that song is one of my favs, but I just thought in that context it was a little, ummmm, HARSH. However, he assures me he didn't mean it that way and that it wasn't directed at me. I'll hafta take his word for it, won't I!

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Mrs. W.

However, in my sitch, there was, in fact, big differences physically, and not just emotionally, between the married sex and the affair sex.

During 2007, for the year prior to when the A began, I was apparently coming down with diabetes. I didn't realize this because I neglected to have an annual physical. And, as the TV commercials inform us, diabetes is a cause of ED. So, as my diabetes worsened, so did our lovemaking. This led me to be embarassed, which only worsened the problem and made me reluctant to initiate sex. So, by the time OM entered the picture, FWW was very frustrated. This problem also contributed to the distance that was growing between us.

By the end of 2007, my diabetic symptoms had become readily apparent, and I sought medical assistance. I was able to get my blood sugar under control within 2 months, and, with assistance from the little blue pill, It returned to near normal. But it was too late, she was already in the A.

The only thing I could say was that the hysterical bonding that occurred for the few weeks after d-day were great. But then she described to me her sessions with OM, and blew whatever esteem I had regained out of the water.

Since then we've regained our intimacy. Other than the fact that we have to pre-plan a little for the little blue pill (or yellow pill, as the case may be), things have returned to normal. We've both accepted that ED is just an unfortunate effect of diabetes (along with ones much worse that I'll likely have to face some day). In fact, she now often intimates her interest by suggesting, "why don't you go take a pill."

I was thinking about this topic.

My self-esteem IS dented somewhat by my experiences for some obvious and some less obvious reasons I won't go into here.

I am not insecure regarding SF though. It is not a lack of sexual confidence or self esteem at play.

It is that I no longer desire SF in my marriage NEARLY so often as before. As Schnarch says in "passionate marriage" :


When SF reminds folks of bad stuff it's bad SF. So I don't desire it much.

Sexual confidence isn't a problem for me, if we're talking about the act itself. Once we get going, I'm fine.

What I have a problem with is initiating SF.

I guess it's already well-documented, but I lack the confidence to initiate SF.

During the few brief civil discussion we've had about it, my FWW says I used to have no problem, and would initiate it all the time.

I swear on my children that I have little to no memory of being that way. It's like I have no idea what to do, or when to do it. Usually, when I do start to try, I begin to feel SO awkward and uncomfortable that I just stop...pretending that the back rub was just a back rub, etc.

I know it's my own shortcoming, but what crushes my self-esteem even more than the A itself is the way it's made me unsure of how to approach my own wife. Of course, when we're discussing the issue, she tells me "just do it", but for some reason the words don't help.

OM never had an issue with how to approach my W, and the fact that I do absolutely breaks my heart and makes me feel like less of a man.

I know I'm not the only one...lacking the confidence to approach your spouse for SF is gut-wrenching.


P.S. From day one, my W has claimed that she never had an O with OM...by choice...that even though she was cheating, there were still things she didn't want to do with someone else. She says she can enjoy sex without an O. With me, she has them at the drop of a hat, and almost always multiples. I've never believed her. Has anyone heard of such a thing from a FWW? Is it even possible?

I'm not a FWW but as a woman, I can say it's possible...we are able to control our O and can pick and choose whether or not to have one just the same as a man can. She may have established that as a boundary for her, which may sound peculiar in light of what she was doing, but it tells me that she wanted SF but hadn't made the decision to end the M and wanted to reserve O just for that. That is, IF she is telling the truth.

Explore what? Emptiness, anger and bitterness? No thanks.

I have tried to explain this before, now and again. I have difficulty with clarity and conciseness, I admit.

My M during the VLTA and the previous EA was a living he11. And I didn’t know why. On a scale of 0 to 99 and a third, those 15 or so years were a 2 and seven eighths. Now, as bad as it may seem to an outsider, it is around a steady 75 point one.

That’s more than I ever hoped for and enough for me, for the time being.

When the pain of long and horrible torture starts to finally pass one does not tend to offer additional body parts for more abuse.

I was 110% focussed on my M all those years. Tying to fix what was wrong. Why she was so unhappy. Jumping at every tiny oppotunity to get her her to love me. I had no outside interests. I cowered at the thought. What if she noticed I wasn't ready to jump on command? I gave up absolutly everything I once was and once had. Sorry, MB, but I refuse to go even a tiny part of the way back there.

I have thought this through. When DS is settled in college I will decide on my next phase of life. In the meantime I am content with other interests. In the meantime I absolutely refuse to put myself in a position where I might even remotely have chance of going through that pain again.

Ther are no LBs or DJs. I meet all her ENs very well. Just like I always did. Just not under duress now.

My ENs are pretty minimal, like I was trained to be during all thsoe years. And that is OK too. I get all I need and most of what I want in life.

I keep my promises. I keep my vow.

You don't need to feel sad, bad or frustrated for me. Really.

With prayers,

ed: It occurs to me, in the sprit of the original thread, the above partly explains my reluctance to have SF with FWW. Oh, the images and the stop signs and the resulting negation of libido in general still apply. But subconsciously, I cannot go there any more. That level of intimacy would be getting way too close to the fire again.

Oh, let's see. Anger. Withdrawal. Yelling. Not so much yelling anymore. Stonewalling. Crying. Accusations I will never get over it. We should just D. I am punishing her. All the usual…

The VLTA is dead. Of that I am sure. So, as preached by a number of MB theorists, it does not need to be a topic of discussion any more. And hasn’t been for more than two years now.

And what would I bring up at this late date anyway? I know all the details I care to know. My need for prurient picking faded first. It became way too painful.

I would like to know The Why, of course, but there is no why. It just is.

She is who she is and who she always was.

I simply didn’t know who she was…would not believe who she was…

Now I know better, and plan accordingly.

With prayers,

I didn't think the use of a part of the anatomy in the context in which I sued it was "profane" at all. I'm sorry offense was taken. Feel free to edit away!

My WW tried to say the same thing. Then, OM was nice enough to immitate her "noises" over the phone for me, when I mentioned that WW said that "he sucked in bed." A friend of mine and W's also mentioned to me how one of OM's friends was laughing one day saying that WW was loud in bed. Don't know if that person was in OM's house or if one of the tenants upstairs heard my WW "O" and spread the word...or, if OM was just bragging.

Either way, I think your WW may just be sparing your feelings...like mine tried to.

I already assumed, since WW kept going back for more, that she was "satisfied".

Not to be a jerk, but would you keep going back for more sex with a woman that didn't satisfy you? I know I have had sex with quite a few women and never went back, because of lack of satisfaction. It's pretty safe to say that if a person keeps going back for more, then thay are "satisfied".

Just sayin'.

She isn't telling the truth.

There is no way his WW went to that extent to ruin their marriage, but "stopped" herself from having an orgasm out of respect for her marital boundaries. Boundaries were the last thing on her mind when she was doing OM. Men are very satisfied and proud after bringing a woman to orgasm (at least I am), and there is no way she would hold back from letting her OM get that satisfaction....IMHO.

I tend to agree with Intro. And that's from a FWW perspective. Just seems silly to have gone that far and have something so silly and stupid as a "consideration" for the H. A BETTER consideration would be not having SF with him, period. What, she thought somehow not having an O would somehow make it better? Sounds suspicious to me. Really suspicious.

However, I WOULD tend to believe her a bit more if she said she didn't have an O, not because she "didn't want to" or "wasn't trying" but because HER GUILT got the best of her while she was in bed with OM and she just couldn't shake that to get herself to an O. O's take concentration for women... well, it does for me. If my mind is racing, I'm not gonna get there. I'd believe that more. That it just HAPPENED that way, not because she WANTED it to be that way. But even that is questionable... if the SF happened more than once, I think. If it was a ONS, then I'd be more inclined to believe that story, but if it happened multiple times, then why did she keep having SF if her mind raced, she felt guilty, and never had an O??

Doesn't add up...

E.

Have to agree with intro. Can't see a WW really holding back and maintaining a boundary there. That would imply a conscience. There isn't when your pants are around your ankles and another man is doing certain things.

Who cares if she had an O with OM? She had SF with him. That's bad enough. Don't take the consolation prize of, "Well, at least she didn't have an O with him."

Assume it's a wayward lie and that she's trying to soften the heinous act just to keep from hurting you.

Nuts!

I agree that she is probably lying, but here are some things she said in defense of her seemingly ridiculous claim:

She (like many women) can enjoy sex without an "O".

Her sex with OM wasn't about having "great sex", it was about striking back at me for perceived injustices & gaining a measure of control over her life. Now she realizes how idiotic she was.

She went back because the "arrangement" they had was easy, convenient, and required almost no deception, planning, or lying.

I have went back and forth with her on this issue more times than I can count. Even after 2 years, her story has not changed one bit, even though she is clearly remorseful and wants our M to succeed.

Her affair was unusual in most aspects, so who knows?

I've assumed she's been lying the entire time, and trying to accept it.

That's a major source of anger and resentment, though.

That's probably true (boundaries were the last thing on her mind when...).
I would concern myself less with whether she had an O than the general situation itself. We have enough to worry about with dealing with their lies, their morals, getting through all our emotions in dealing with all of this, and deciding if the marriage is even salvageable.

I've got all of those concerns, too.

Sex is not satisfying without an orgasm....period. Sex is a tool used for procreating and/or satisfaction (oragasms). So, unless she repeatedly tried to procreate with OM...she was having orgasms.

Also, there is nothing "easy" or "convenient" about repeatedly having sex with someone who doesn't give you an orgasm...it's quite the opposite..."hard" and "inconvenient" would be believable.

Sorry Krazy....I know it's tough to swallow...believe me, I know.

I agree with you 99%.

Women are not like men. They do not have to have an orgasm to have fun, or to want more.

She did admit to doing the job herself during SF with OM, which is an entirely different thing, imo.

That said, I do agree that she is lying, but she will never reverse her stance.

It almost makes me angry enough to file for divorce all by itself, and has kept my temper at a low boil for 2 years now.

nothing was tough to swallow for my ex. She was basically a prostitute for her OM. While they did have intercourse 6 times over 3.5 years...their main activity (about 60 times) was her giving him head.

Figure that one out.

Hooker comes to mind.

Jesus...that's awful.

Mine screwed OM 12 times over a 3.5 year period. They never saw each other at other times, no dates, no gifts...she gave me his name and cell number, but didn't know where he lived, and didn't care to. I found that info on my own.

At least hookers get paid...my FWW didn't even get lunch.

I thought I'd posted an answer to this question before, but I guess I didn't.

First off, my FWW is the only person I've ever had SF with. Unlike the rest of you with some experience below your belt, I really don't have any terms of reference to compare SF with my FWW with SF with someone else.

Secondly, I had, and continue to have problems with ED. I used to be afraid to approach my FWW for SF in fear of letting her down, and every time I did and I failed, it got worse. Her approach to SF at the time of just lying there didn't help much either. However, I went on medication a few years ago, and thereafter experienced some of the best SF with my FWW. She met my needs and from her reaction I didn't think anything was missing from the experience.

What I didn't know at the time was that my FWW started her PA only a few months afterward, and she was getting SF from both myself and the OM for almost a year afterwards.

Of course I was devastated. I felt like I had been used as a substitute for the times she couldn't have SF with him.

Shortly after D-Day, when I asked what the difference was between SF with me and SF with the OM, she replied that he was "bigger", and that he lasted longer, but she then went on to say that the size didn't really matter, that I was "good enough" (of course I was thinking if the size didn't really matter, why was that the FIRST thing that came to her mind when I asked that question?).

She also suggested that her Os with the OM (if she got them) were not as intense as they were with me. I have trouble believing this, particularly as she mentioned at one point that he had to cover her mouth at one time to stop anyone from hearing the noises from their office!

Nevertheless, there's I could do about the size issue, but I could work on the other aspects of SF, so I concentrated on those. And the ED medication helped. She highlighted longer, I worked on that. I also paid a lot more attention to her needs, and I thought I was fairly successful at that - her responses suggested that she really enjoyed almost every time we did it.

I thought things were going really well, until she told me that she was only indulging in SF because I wanted to, and she didn't really feel the need for it, and she also suggested that I was interested in her only for physical reasons. Our SF dropped off quite a bit after that, for obvious reasons. She recently suggested again that I'm only interested in her for 'physical' reasons, even though SF is down to maybe two three times a month, if at all. So basically for the last few weeks it has stopped completely. I'm just not inclined to have SF with her at the moment.

Funny enough, just before this latest dry spell I was feeling confident enough to try SF (infrequent as it was) without the use of the ED pills. That confidence disappeared quite quickly.

So as of this moment:
1. I'm not inclined to have SF. There's no desire, and that depresses me a bit.
2. I'm not confident enough (again) to engage in it. Partly because my FWW's actions and comments have caused me to seriously question my ability in that regards, and partly because I just don't think I can do it if I have no desire for it.
3. It seems we're returning to the type of situation that existed pre-A (and before I went on ED treatment) where I'm basically afraid to approach my W for SF. I've mentioned this to her, and the response has been, well, unsympathetic.

I guess history's repeating itself.

Sounds familiar...but, it's all relative to her having SF with OM. If she likes to do the job herself, then why even involve OM?....because, she liked to do it herself in front of him....just like my WW did.

Now we both have the unfortunate reality that other men are hi fiving each other, over a beer, talking about how our wives pleasured themselves in front of them......not fun.

There is no difference...she "O"ed. For him... because of him...no difference. Just as gratifying for him, either way.

I actually have more respect for a hooker than a cheating W. Unless of course the hooker was married.

Hey, at least you have a number to go from. My W still says "I'm not sure...I don't want to think about it" when I ask her how many times. And, her PA was only about 5 weeks long as opposed to your WW's 3.5 years.

I think that is worth paying attention to. I think the SF part of the A is driven by three general things. Just the experience, expression of "love", or to sustain the A. Maybe a mix of all three.

ONS and short A's are probably just the experience. That is a real bummer, because there really ain't much you can do about that. I mean if the WS just wanted "something different" to see what it was like, then its hard to become diffeent.

Expression of love is also a downer, cause it means your WW thought she was "in love." But that can change when they realize it was a fantasy.

To sustain the A, I think is much more common in LTA's. All I mean here is that the SF was not so much because they wanted the SF, the WW just didn't want the A to end, so they did what they thought (or knew) OM wanted so as to keep the A going.

I think in many of those cases the WW is going to lie about the SF because this is going to be a really hard one to admit. No WW is going to want to say "I slept with him because I was afraid he'd leave me." Makes them too vulnerable. No WW who is in recovery is going to say "and I really cranked it up a notch so that he would be impressed and like me." Makes them too open to the retort of "so you its not that you don't like SF, its that you aren't motivated."

Finally, IMHO, one should take any details they get about "how good" the SF was with a grain of salt. You see time and again that mind/fantasy plays a bigger role in all of this than any sort of reality. I mean SF is a difficult issue for BH's, so consider some of the other things that were also described as "better." Dives where they went are described as romantic. Idiot OM's are described as complicated. OM's who abandon there children are described as "good fathers".

MiM - I only commented because I don't think you should view her comments as a rejection of you. Its probably a deeper issue than that.