Question out of curiosity.

Do most affairs really end within 6 months of being exposed, and do most marriages survive them? If the marriage ends isit usually due to factors other than the infidelity?

Is there a physiological basis behind them ending in this timeframe?

What factors contribute to their demise?

I read so many tales of sorrow on these boards that I find it hard sometimes to believe the good Dr. Harley.

I would be very grateful for the input of any wise veterans on the board.

GH31

GH,

I don't know if the stats are international, but I would guess they are applicable "Down Under". Most marriages do NOT end after an affair. What they often do is limp along because no one has a clue how to rebuild nor a plan on how to do so.

It does seem 6 months is the average. Some end upon exposure, others go on longer. The factor that contributes to their demise or at least the main factor is REALITY coupled with guilt. The reality is that BS is not as bad as was made out by WS. The other reality is that BS' often "see the light" and change their behavior, thus making the Justifications used by WS to be moot. The other reality is the WS often learns that the BS really does love them, otherwise why would they endure this pain. Finally, the reality is that the affair damages many people not just the BS and the WS is at heart a good person, who got desparate and lost their way.

I have tried to simplify this for you, but as you know people are complex.

One thing you can bet on. If there is a marriage hit by an affair that does not change the people in it, (the BS and WS don't learn and grow) then often the marriage will end because both are fully aware of the others failures.

Your marriage can be saved GH. It requires you to fix the things you did wrong previously, and to have the strength to refrain from love busting now. Honesty by the way is not love busting although it can be painful.

God Bless,

JL

Take a look at a post I recently made on rains thread. Anyway, the chemicals responsible for many, if not most, affairs, die a natural death in some period of time. The same chemicals are often responsible for the initial attraction between people who then go on to get married. The issue of the affair creates a dynamic that a) most often the affairees DON'T get married, and b) an earlier demise of the infatuation.

From what I have seen and read, six months is a good average. there are a lot of variables including discovery or not, effective action by the BS, or not, etc.

Larry

Hi Larry and JL,

I think Australia is the same - human physiology doesn't change much with geography.

Thanks for your replies. I guess I am asking because my whole nightmare is now 6 months old. I have no idea where I've found the strength from to even get to this point.

I would be interested to hear from anyone else who has gotten through something like this.

GH31

What have you done with the 6 months?

Most affairs end within 2 years but the majority within 6 months.

How you have spent that 6 months and what you have done with the time will have a bearing on the chances of recovery of your marriage.

Yes, there is a physiological basis for the 6-mo. (ave.) timespan on an affair. It is called infatuation. Clinically, when someone becomes infatuated with another person, the brain releases a flood of brain chemicals, hormones and neurotransmitters, the most notable being phenylethylamine (PEA), which is closely related to amphetamine (phenylisopropylamine). Your brain produces its own drug-induced euphoria, which is what is referred to as being "in love" or romantic love. The person then becomes addicted to this euphoria, and thus intensely craves the other person. They constantly think of the OP, and get depressed when they haven't contacted him/her, and get a real high when they see them or hear their voice.

But, the brain doesn't sustain the production of these neurotransmitters. They subside after about 6 months, upon which the person returns to their normal self, and then see the OP for what they really are, as well as the foolishness of the A.

Most affairs end by 2 years time.

For many reasons. OP/WS one or both never wanted out of their marraige. One or both got bored with their affair and wanted a new love interest. Family, job, life changes, finaces made it to difficult to have the free time to continue affair. OP/WS finely see what the low rent person their affair partner is. WW gets pregnant OM then not wanting to be a dad dumps her. The BS of either one suspect and puts so much heat on them that fear being caught that they have to much to lose and dumps their affair partner. OP/WS families move to far to continue affair. OP/WS drops dead. OP/WS illness.

This is no reason to ignore an affair. If an affair is suspected the BS should search for proof and work to end it. Too much can happen if a BS was to sit and let their WS's affair run it's course.

The longer an affair goes on the greater the risk the WS can get a STD, pregnant by OM, both.

I recommend that you check out Ace's Success Stories thread over in Recovery.

Who

One small correction just in case someone starts a web search on the word, "phenylethylamine." It is spelled phenylethylalamine."

Note the extra "la."

And for the record, I would say that "romantic love" based on an infatuation is analogous to "Fools gold." For me, "romantic love" is based on oxytocin among other neurotransmitters, as Wikipedia so defines.

Larry

Can I ask a series of simple questions? When does the 6 months, 2 years (or whatever timeline) begin? Is it at the beginning of the A? Is it upon exposure? Can certain events feed it or perhaps extend the period of neurotransmitter production? For example, excess drama requiring further "rescuing"? Silly questions perhaps, but maybe useful for new BS's.

Tabby,

You and I walk the same similar timeline and I am indeed interested as well.

Not to mention that in my case, the "real life" has been set in for a long time with them and it seems to make them stronger together. I can't figure it out, and I am not trying to anymore.

Tabby, good questions. I'd like to know also.

My exposure hasn't been very good. Going to do it again and more expansive. But, my WW and OM both read and posted in my original thread. While that's not an exposure, would that be the first "strain" on their relationship. Of course, I guess it could have pushed them closer though. He11, I don't know. In my case, it seems no one I HAVE exposed to, even cares.

Hi GH,

Well, I'm still waiting. But since I have had to come out of B because the judge ordered us to work together and I've had more contact with OWH because he hired my attorney and filed for D, I have found out that all is NOT honey and wine in Affairland.

Slag is upset that OWH filed for D. Slag is upset with my WH, Mr. Gray because he is addicted to drugs and embarrassing her in public. She's addicted too, but I guess she "functions" better. Yeah, sure. Whatever.

OWH & I have the same problem you mentioned with exposure with some family members. My FIL & BIL on my side don't approve of the A but they say nothing. The kids are another story, however.

On OWH's side...he exposed to Slag's family and they don't approve but they say, "She is an adult, blah blah blah."

So I hear ya' on that one.

Hang in there, though. It will get better. And the affair very likely WILL end, eventually. Just do what you need to do to protect yourself.

MenOut,

I exposed the A to the world almost and NO ONE seemed to care at all. No one wanted to talk to WH. It broke my heart knowing that no one would help.

I just knew in the end I did everything I could possibly do to save my M and more. So my conscience was clear.

You are doing what you can.

I hear ya. It's just sad the OMW doesn't seem to give a crud either.

Men,

I have had the hardest time learning that I can't control what they do. I would, trust me if I could.

What I have somehow come to grips with is that I have tried and continue to try and save my M and that's all I can do.

So that if and when judgement day comes, I go with a pure heart.

I'm sorry you are hurting, but there is a lesson in this for you. You just have to seek it and work through it. Tough stuff and I hate it, but there isn't always a choice in life, is there?

Dancing,

Harley is very specific about this one point. If there are other addictions in play, such as you have mentioned, he won't even consider MC with the couple until those addictions are addressed and ended. It is tough enough to deal with a failed marriage without the added stress that addictions to alcohol, drugs, etc.

Your H, must address the drug issue first.

God Bless,

JL

the biological clock begins when the WS becomes infatuated, in other words, when the WS finds they can't think of anything other than OP, and they're counting down the minutes to when they can see or talk to them again. Exposure, discovery or even sex is incidental.

Some things may hasten the end of the infatuation cycle; in my WW's case, she admits the fog lifted partially after exposure and after a bout of jealousy when she found out another woman was interested in me. Anything that shocks WS with some reality should help shorten the infatuation cycle. But, YMMV.

Thank you, JL.

Yeah, I don't know if he ever will. YDS had a good point about this because he had his own struggle with drugs for about a year or so. He said his dad probably thinks he's functioning normally and there is nothing wrong.

I don't know what it will take for him to wake up, if ever.

I am around DGS a lot, though and I have been sending him pictures. Since I am in Plan Whatever now. LOL!

I haven't heard from Gray since I sent him the email (respectfully) asking about this charge to the checking account he made without asking.

Thanks again!

Charlotte

(sorry for t/j GH!!)

I had mixed results with exposure. It didn't end the A - in some ways it may have reinforced it though I still believe in the long term it will end (though it is going to hit the 2 year mark next month if you start from the beginning of the A, it's been 15 months since D-day/exposure). Most people were very supportive of me. WstbxH snowjobbed MIL 3 months before D-day (went to visit her and told her how unhappy he was with me meanwhile leading me to believe nothing was wrong). BIL#1 who had only just faced his D-day was angry with him, supportive of me but in the end stood by his brother. BIL#2 who watched what BIL#1 went through didn't speak to WstbxH for a long time - to the extent that it ruined MIL's 60th birthday party. MIL was furious with me and insisted on no contact between me and the BIL's. She then turned around and gave OW all the gifts she had bought for me for my birthday. She honestly believes that in the 5 days from when WstbxH asked for a divorce and I found out about the A, he met, fell in love and planned a future with OW!!!

On OW's side, she has a large family and they are very religious. Only 2 sisters still talk to her. One she is still close to (also blacklisted from the family due to an A of her own) and the other is a very tentative relationship since her husband and OWH are still very close. What little time OW allows OWH to see his DD, he has to take her around to visit her family as well as his since they won't allow WstbxH anywhere near them and OW won't visit without him.

Among friends, all of our (mine and WstbxH's) friends took my side. Virtually all of their (OW & OWH's) friends took his side. There is one couple that work with OW and WstbxH. They still get invited to their place for dinner and stuff but the husband confided in OWH that he doesn't like WstbxH. Also, that couple is now on my baseball team and I tailgait with them after the game. It was funny the week OW came - another couple came that had previously been friends with OW and OWH and were sitting with us. OW and WstbxH hung around by their truck, not 50 yards from our party, for about 30 minutes before finally leaving. I think they were waiting in hopes that I would leave so they could join. Basically through no effort or design, I have stolen their remaining friends.

So nobody "talked" to either one of them really, other than to tell them they were crazy. But it did shake up their entire support network which they don't think they need right now but someday they will.

The reason I think exposure may have reinforced their A in this case is that they have nobody but each other. They have had ongoing drama with OWH who has had to take OW to court just to be able to see his DD at all (OW and WstbxH bought a house in another city and moved without telling anyone until it was done). We also had some drama created by my DS's wedding which OW was specifically asked not to come to. And of course a number of stupid requests along the way which I have been in no way willing to oblige. So I believe they have a lot of "poor us" and "our love will get us through" crap. They are planning to get married as soon as the divorces go through so they still have plenty of scheming to do to keep them busy.

Now all that said, I tell every new BS here to expose, broadly, widely and swiftly. I still credit this very move for every positive thing that has happened to me since (yes, in retrospect there really are positive things). In addition to the tremendous support I received from friends, family and even strangers, I believe I got a better settlement (WstbxH was less willing to pursue most things when I reminded him that this was his doing). I also retained many friends that probably would have believed his snowjob along with his mother if I hadn't exposed. I also connected with OWH who was instrumental in getting information, not jsut about the A but ongoing information like when WstbxH was planning to rob my house or show up at my baseball game to taunt me. It made him look like a liar and gave me credibility.

No offence, but I disagree:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenylethylamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine

Just Learning,

I wonder if this would apply in a dry drunk situation where the behaviors are absolutely the same, but missing the substance of alcohol.

But then Harley considers the A an addiction.

I'm not sure where I am going with this, so just ignore if it has no merit.

Galoot you are correct. It is phenylethyamine, no extra la.

I think the other poster got mixed up in thinking the last "word" was alanine. Alamine is not a chemical term, alanine is (it is an amino acid). "amine" is also a chemical term-- for the NH4 group (an amino group, different than an amino acid). But, in all my years working I've never heard of an "alamine". That's combining "alanine" and "amine", is my guess, but those are two totally different things.

I am a research biologist, that's how I know this crap. :-D

Anyways, not really relevant, just like to chime in where I actually KNOW something

E.

No offence, was hoping you wouldn't so take either.

I used one la early on in discussions. After a while, I switched to using two la instead of one. I had a reason.

The spelling is easy to confuse. Try a standard google search, which turns up numerous links for phenylethylalamine in terms of infatuations, and not too many when you spell it with one la. You also get links to a commercial drink one way and chocolate another. No question, confusing to me at the time, and now.

Soooo, in difference to your certainty, I did some more research. Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster both use one la. Numerous other sites use two based on google searches.

So which is correct?

NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) calls it Benzeneethanamine and uses one la in the aternate names directory. NIST has ZERO reference when using two la. This builds a good case for one la.

Then, I found several authoritive references using google to phenylethylalamine as an amine, which relates to Methamphetamine, which the DEA classifies as a drug. Wikipedia deals with the one la spelling exactly the same way. Given the level of the authority on the sites using two la versus the level of the authority of the sites which use only one:

I have come to the conclusion that both spellings seem to refer to the same chemical structure, C8H11N. On the other hand, when you google the two spellings, two la gets more romantic hits in terms of infatuation than one la. And that was my point. Like I said, I originally used one la whilst trying to take the mystery out of infatuation and to make the point that the production of the meth like chemical involved faded in time.

I kept getting confused feedback and some disagreement. When I started using two la, that stopped because of what you see when you google it that way.

I have beat this to death. Sorry. . .

Larry

eeyoree:


Just the one I was looking for

If you have access to elsevier, take a look at:

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0920996497001163

or:

http://researchspace.csir.co.za/dspace/bitstream/10204/2151/3/Maila_1_2005.pdf

Which is from the International Journal of Phytoremediation, 7:87–98, 2005

I got both off a google search using two la. Al Turtle is one site I use because it is free and it has a rather complete discussion on the effects of however you spell PEA in terms of infatuations and he spells it with two la.

Given my now total confusion on which is the correct spellling, I guess I will use both in the future and direct those who want good google hits in terms of infatuation to two la and those who want what appears to be somewhat more accuracy with one la.



Larru

Hi All,

Thanks for your input. It's curious that most As end and that Dr. Harley sees them as addictions. I would have thought that most alcoholics and smokers don't ever conquer their addictions but I could be wrong.

Any other remarks from veterans out there regarding the lifespan of most As?

During this six month trauma I have worked very hard to conquer selfishness and anger. W says that "I've been really good recently" but then other times when the fog is thicker alleges that it's all an act with a hidden agenda. I assume it's because contact with OM persists.

Selfishnes, putting myself first and being neglectful are the things that W fears will happen again.

I really do hope that these poisonous, delusional chemicals go away eventually but my expectations are still low to non-existent.

I think it's a miracle that we were separated for 4 months with very minimal contact, but using the contact that we did have I did my best. W's sister is getting married next weekend and I will be a groomsman. I have organsied future BIL's bachelor's party for tomorrow.

Very interesetd in getting some more input from you veterans.

I don't know if this will help but this is the time line of my A.

Feb - April 2002: kissing, touching

April - September 2002: intercourse (10 times)

September - June 2003: Sporadic contact and no touching

June 2003: The OM ended the A.

October 2003: D-day #1 with my BH

April 2006 for two weeks: Contact with OM but no touching

June 2006 D-day #2 with my BH

Our time line *yes rmx you can correct me if needed*

September 1998-- EA

October 1998 --- A turned to PA
D-Day

January 1999-- Left OM...NC

As you study adultery, you will find that:


A WS will rewrite their vision of their BS. And if the BS makes changes in their way of doing business as a result of the trauma, the WS will denigrate the changes. This is part of the rationalization process to justify the betrayal.

If you will google the various spellings of PEA, you can read for yourself and no longer be curious. Now that said, PEA can temporarily bloom again as in a High School reunion nobody in their right minds should attend. So it can in a marriage when both parties are educated in the process and invest in a periodic renewal of the infatuation.

Larry

Hi Larry,

You really appear to know your subject.

My W said in an email just after we separated I want this separation for now as my image of you has diminished. Do whatever you have to do to make yourself a great guy again because at the moment I don't see you that way.

Then every time we got together afterwards she was crying "reconciliation" and "it's destiny that we will get back together" etc. I also heard things like "don't go and date other girls, what if I want to come back to you in the future?" and "I frown upon you looking at divorce proceedings. It's typical of you to want to cover yourself". Unbelievable but true.

But, I was a nasty, selfish, neglectful and horrible person to live with with many many DJs, SDs and AOs. I fully take responsibility for making her vulnerable to an A but I find that the deception, lies, hypocrisy and cake-eating are getting harder and harder for me to live with.

I hope I can work this marriage out. I don't want to apply the lessons of this trauma with anyone else but her.

Any other comments on the lifecycle of an affair?

best,

GH31

Best way to terminate an affair is to shoot it in the head. By that I mean exposure within the guidelines, suddenly and completely. Read all of Harley's stuff, he is the man with the plan.

Your wife is cake eating. I would guess you have been here long enough to know what that means, especially if you have read all of Harley's stuff.

I dunno you from Adam. I would bet that you are not as nasty a person as you are laying out. Otherwise, you wouldn't be making whatever changes you are making; nasty is as nasty does.

All the best.

Larry

I just thought of a little more insight on this ~6 month infatuation cycle. Right now is about 6 months since FWW's infatuation began, from the best I can tell. (She marks Feb. 10 as the start of their relationship, their first date, but she was meeting him casually before then, and had all the earmarks of then being infatuated) Anyway, I've been carrying out Plan A since I found this site in March. While their PA ended in late April, they continued an EA on the phone, including during several false NC. But, just this past weekend, WW remarked on how much our relationship has improved during the past two weeks. Now, maybe I missed something, but I'm sure I've been acting the same way now as when I started plan A.

I'm only guessing, but it's my guess that while a WS is inebriated with the infatuation hormones, those hormones create a sort of filter against anything that would contradict WS's view or belief about her feelings toward OP. Any love deposits from BS are registered, but not really deposited, or at least are severely discounted. It is not until the infatuation subsides that the love deposits, past and present, are actually deposited in her love bank. Just a thought

So if there is a 6 month infatuation cycle that begins at "the beginning" of the A (as opposed to discovery), what is happening in A's that last longer than 6 months? What about the ones that last close to the 2 years? And the ones that excede that? I guess what I'm really asking is what is going on my WstbxH and OW right now? Even with the drama fueling their flames, they have to be way beyond the infatuation cycle.

Six months is a rule of thumb, not a hard and fast time period. It is that the betrayal of adultery can sometimes fuel a longer period of time, similar to the mistress culture of Europe, say France for example. Affairees keep themselves pumped up by lying to themselves, from my POV.

Affairs thrive in secrecy. Exposure can hasten a reality fix. And of course, in rare cases, oxytocin eventually overtakes the infatuation and real love sets in, unfortunately. I am not saying that is the case with your situation. I don't know enough to even comment.

Larry

If a BH is waiting for an affair to die off on its own, he is taking a bad strategy.

When the WW moves out she no longer has to hide her affair, no pressure to end it. It feels great, and no stress having to sneak arround.

When a WW knows that her BH is aware that she is banging another and does nothing to impede it she see's BH as weak and loses more of what little desire she still has for BH.

LTA, long term affair. With an unsuspecting BH or a BH that suspects an affair but will do nothing to confront the WW the affair continues for years. Why? the WW does not want to disrupt her childrens life. Give up the house, cars, BH's pension. Why should she? BH provides finacial and material needs. The OM provides her with great sex.

Trying to end an affair sooner is better because there will be less to forgive. Letting an affair go on, increase the chance that WW may leave BH. Or is WW comes back. It's with a STD, knocked up by the OM, or both.

I can see all that. But my Wstbx's and OW's A was exposed - first by OWH, then by me. They instantly moved in together (Wstbx actually told me that he had originally planned to JUST have an A but then he fell in love ). Upon moving in together, they proceed to expose themselves - presumably thinking that now that they are both away from their spouses, it was ok and people should get used to them. Pressure to end it was ignored. Even financial pressure (they burned through their settlements in a matter of weeks and had to cash out all their RRSP's) didn't deter them. So they made it through Plan A applied by both OWH and myself (admittedly mine was pretty bad when it came to eliminating LBs, though my exposure was good). The Hurleys even say exposure only ends A's 15% of the time.

So now they are in the open. They are also financially entangled with each other (share a mortgage among many other loans). I'm not sure what their legal status is - here 6 months cohabitation = common law, but since none of our divorces have gone through the system yet I really don't know if they are protected by the 50/50 thing or not. Probably they are. He has her listed on his life insurance as his wife - they didn't have a problem with that.

The A has probably been going on for 2 years as of this month but I don't know for sure. She was having an A with a different OM earlier in the year - Aug 06 was when we have the first evidence of an A between them. I suspect it was an EA at this time. I have no idea when it progressed to a PA. He began draining the bank account in Oct 06 - first concrete evidence of his planning to leave though there were a few things in between that suggest he was planning earlier. Feb 07 was when he snowjobbed his mother - prepping her for when he left me. He didn't say anything to me until OWH caught them and decided to throw OW out of the house (this was her second A that he knows of). So if anything, their plans got moved forward but that was all.

Despite the fact that the A continues, everything MB has said about A's has applied to them, how they behaved and what comes out of their mouths. I'm just waiting for the A to end now, but I think it will go past the 2 year mark.

FWIW, I'm not looking for recovery. I've moved on and I'm happier without him. But I'd still like to see the karma bus hit them.

Tabby1 your story sounds like mine except that OW was divorced has 3 teenage boys,I have 2.They have been together 19 months,moved in together straight away.OW worked with my WH.Last month WH was forced to resign and OW was forced to resign 3 months ago.WH was the boss,OW was a temp for the company.OW now has a job and WH has filed for divorce cos he wants half his money from house so he can start a business.WH has lost all friends and they "only have each other'.When I told him that only 5%of affairs he said "maybe I'm one of the 5%"
I don't think it will end.In the beginning WH was furious cos OW's EXH told me 2 weeks into affair.WH said he didn't expect the affair to go anywhere DUH!!
OW has tattoos and piercings so doesn't WH have a tattoo done at 45!!crazy behaviour all round including excessive drinking.WH now drinks red wine..my drink..he never touched wine before only beer!!OW drinks too...

Yikes Tabby, I am so sorry you are going through this.
This post made me think of 2 A's that I know of that went long term with different results.
The first one was my Husband's brother's wife and his sister's husband started a secret affair. (This was before I entered the picture) It all came to a head at his other brother's wedding (nice) when the WW asked my BIL for a divorce at the reception. One of my husband's other sister had "caught" them together around town but only told my MIL because she knew her brother and sister wouldn't believe her. So my MIL knew and my SIL knew but had no real proof other than SIL seeing them together around town. I forget how they finally got outed but WW filed first, then my SIL woke up and realized what was going on and filed also. At the time WW and BBIL had 3 boys ages 5,3 9months. WH and BSIL had a boy and girl ages 5&4. I entered the picture 4 years later. During those 4 years WH moved in with WW. I couldn't believe these 5 kids had to deal with this horrific mess all those years. Can you imagine going to see your Dad and his new girlfriend (AUNT!) at their house where your cousins live? SICK!!! The boy of my SIL would refuse to go in and his dad would be mad and tell him to stay in the car if he feels that way. A few years later (don't remember exactly when) WW had an affair on WH (shock) and kicked him out. This is when the whole thing hit WH and he came out of the fog. He has spent the past 10+ years trying to make ammends to his children, family and my BSIL. He makes sure he gives full credit to SIL for raising the children and thanks her all the time. Around the time he woke up my SIL was diagnosed with MS. She was doing well for about 5+ years then went down hill fast. When she couldn't be alone anymore HE got an appartment attached to the police station he works at so he could keep an eye on her when the kids were working. She was to call him day or night if she needed anything from him. She got so bad she needed 24 hour care so her daughter and her H (who had a newborn) wanted her to move in with them. Once again WBIL stepped in and found a place that would hold all of them. Daughter's Husband also has a son who is autistic. He had been trying to get custody of him from the mother who has issues. Her mom got custody and welcomed him to share it with her. They also found out my niece was expecting again. Now they needed another place with 4 bedrooms with one downstairs for my SIL. Guess who found that for them? WBIL is now a doting dad/grandpa and even comes over any time my niece needs someone to sit with her mom (his BW). There are people in the family that will never forgive him but his family (including my SIL) have. I have never met the man but I respect him for owning up to his mistakes and taking care of my SIL. When she gets overwhelmed by what he does for her (and he does a lot) he says "It's the least I can do after you raised two wonderful children for me. I can never repay you for all you have done for me."

The second was my sister's in-laws. My sister and BIL got married the same day the other couple did above. (weird huh?)
My dad noticed that my sister's FIL disappeared downstairs to a bar with a "workmate" but didn't say anything. While my sister and BIL were on their honeymoon her FIL dropped the bomb. He gave her MIL the whole WW babble and said he was in love with someone else. They went off into the sunset and eventually got married (gag) This strained the relationship with both his kids. He wasn't even invited to his daughter's wedding, my BIL gave her away. At this time sister's MIL was dating a creep none of us liked. Over the next 10 years both relationships ended and they were both single again. They met up at his Aunt's funeral and started talking. The fog was lifed on him and he tried to make amends. The kids welcomed him back into their lives and everyone got along. Then shock of shocks....they started dating! They got remarried about 8 years ago and they are like high school sweethearts now.

Both these stories tell me that WS can wake up from a fog even after a long A. I know it's not the norm but it does happen.

tabby

all marriages do not recover from an affair.

Exposure, doing a 180, and MB works the best to end affairs.

Even though an affair may end. The WS may never see the OP again. The marraige still ends up in divorce.

Doing a perfect plan A. Then a perfect plan B. Does not guarantee
success. Doing nothing guarantees failure.

Most affairs end. Most times when the WS and OP marry, the marriage does not last. Not every time.

There are no guarantees. Only odds. Probable out comes.

I agree with this TR - because it fits the alpha / beta male scenario.

Once the BH becomes the cuckold (aka beta male) it seems the WW will place alpha male above and in higher esteem even through R.

I quietly agree with Medc and MyRev responses to snap a foggy BH out of no action. An alpha male will compete against the interloper or if the situation requires it - push the WW into the OM arms by moving on. An alpha male will not tolerate the status quo.

An alpha male will stand up, beat his chest and chase the other male away or move on to find someone else for himself. He will not share his wife with another and seldom will tolerate Plan A for very long. I also believe that an alpha type male will perform a scorch earth policy in his fight against the OM. He would be willing to lose $$, home and everything to battle against the assault of his family.

An extreme alpha male OTOH will just assume allow the OM to be the cuckold and raise his kids. Not in favour of this - btw.

One thing I have learned in this situation is that whether we like it, admit it or not - we all have a need for a spouse's physical attractiveness. In truth - if you consider your self attractive or in good shape - you don't want to wake up next to a fat slob - this is true for either sex. Just look at diet, dental, personal hygiene ads in the media.

If a BH (incl BW) lets his body fall apart with the additional aging we have no control over it and become lazy in our appearance and how we publicly present ourselves, the BH and BW is setting himself for their spouse to lose any interest and look elsewhere.

In my situation, I am in late 40's but can still bench press my weight (200lbs). The one thing that does attract my spouse to me is that I am aging gracefully and look more distinguished older. She also understands now that I will be OK with or without her and we have been married close to 30 yrs. This was not always the case and I had to find myself again and assert my so-called 'alpha' male stature in the family. My sons basically alluded to this. I recall cologne and some clothes they bought for me.

My kids made me realize that during the course of career and the mundane life routine, I had become a bit sloppy, less energetic, and become out of date in the styles. My wife was being courted by much wealthier Dallas yuppie types. Before it went too long - it ended.

As far as to the length of affairs, I was reading recently in (I think,I've read several books but I'm almost sure this is the one ) Torn Asunder by Carder, and it made an interesting but understandable point.

Many affairs which are "on again-off again" or in which partners are separated by distance and perhaps see each other only twice a year or so, can literally last for decades. Because the adultery partners are not around each other enough to get sick of each other, the "thrill" is still new enough to keep it going for a very long time.

The same principle to a slightly lesser degree applies when the adulterers are conflicted about their immoral actions, and periodically break off contact for a few months, then run into each other and start back up again. Then they feel guilty and stop, only to repeat the cycle over and over and over. In some weird way, the breaks in the relationship only serve to reinforce it.

Scary!

And a good incentive to have NC for life, as Dr. Harley advises!

Winger,

I agree with alot of what you say here particularly as it relates to a BH and the necessary efforts to the end his WW's A.

I also believe that a BH that uses this same approach to recover the marriage after the A will struggle mightily. In my experience, recovery requires a different mindset and approach.

From what I read, nothing guarantees that the APs will break up or drift apart after the infatuation wears off (i.e., the honeymoon's over). Most do, as Dr. Harley writes in one of his articles. But sometimes, after the infatuation wears off, the APs see they still share a lot in common, still are attracted to each other and still aren't sufficiently attracted to their BS. If such is the case, all involved should recognize that the APs are now acting under their true feelings, and not under the influence of the fog. Plan D would be the most likely course of action.

Middle aged madness. Perhaps the tattoos are spelling right (line from Steel Magnolias). The Karma bus is coming.

Larry

Don't let your spouse go ALONE to a high school reunion!

Larry

Absolutely, 100% true.

Larry

To add another perspective, I'll add my own timeline:

Sept - Oct 2006: A begins. I'm unsuspecting.
Nov 2006: ILYBINILWY speech...
Dec 2006: Separation
Feb 2007: Caught by P.I., exposed, WW comes back for a weekend. Goes back to OM.
Mar 2007: I enter Plan B
Apr 2007: D filed by WW
Sept 2007: WW comes back for a week, goes back to OM. The M.O. matches February false recovery: Making sure that I'm still in the loop.

Plan B resumes, D and Plan B continue to this day.

In Sept 2008, the A will hit the 2 years from the start mark. WW has admitted December 2006 as the start date, but I don't believe her claim. (WW opened her mouth, thus, she must be lying...)

The point is: It's not so much a matter of time, but more in what you do as a BS, the in laws, and a complex array of variables. All of them seem to be out of your control completely - most are.

Exposure is an absolute must, hands down. It must be done quickly and stike strategic targets. This is a whole different discussion in itself.

Yes, I think the six month rule on chemically induced infatuation is true. After roughly five months of an A, my WW came back for a brief moment and told me that she told OM that they needed to step back in their relationship. It had a sense of "getting old" for them.

Engaging in conflict with your WS is completely counterproductive - I would personally recommend a Plan B sooner rather than later. I've become quite a fan of "Silence is Golden".

Your WS won't begin to respect you again so long as you are in conflict. The conflict feeds the flames of justification. In regards to perceived weakness, if you find yourself falling flat on your face when communicating with WS, the "Less is more" and "Silence is Golden" approach is more beneficial.

The most common factors that bring a WS back, I believe, after the six months of "infatuation" are: WS guilt, fear of losing you/jealousy, reality shocks (such as a death in the family/friends, cancer/terminal illness scares, etc, etc), selfishness, selfishness, selfishness.

The things that keep them from coming back (Again, just in my opinion):
Guilt over what they have done (feel as though they don't deserve you after what has happened), IN LAWS!!!, WS feels you won't take them back, shame, stubborn pride.

The best tactic I can recommend is to earnestly work on yourself, follow the Plan A formula as it applies to you, don't worry about things you have no control over, and exude dignity and self-respect. In a Betrayed World, demonstrating dignity goes a long way.

There are no guarantees of anything, so one can not focus on a "timeframe".

It's funny, they usually come back when you least expect it, and sometimes after you have moved on...

GH:

How about this:

Mine lasted 4.5 years. And ended on D-day.

But your not really asking "do affairs end in six months"?

Your REALLY Asking: "CAN I SURVIVE ANOTHER SIX MONTHS?"

Totally different question.

Timelines mean goals.

Goals mean something to strive for, to hope for, to see, "If I can make THIS, then, I will see what happens next....

Affairs end how they end. We can discuss the chemistry for pages. Doesn't really make any difference.

Your H's affair will end when he decides that your a better alternative. Or the OW dumps him. Or he finds another OW.

So.

The pain you have been feeling for the past six months? May get worse or better.

What is YOUR PLAN? Your GOAL?

Lets work on that.

LG

These statements sum up what I have found most valuable about MB. It is not just about marital recovery, but also personal recovery which is my goal. And in reading between the lines, I don't think there's a hope for marital recovery without personal recovery - and that's really and truly what Plan B does for a BS.

My M is over and I'm okay with that. I'm moving on and life is getting better every day. I barely see WstbxH any more and we never talk so there's no conflict from my side. However, there's tons between OWH and OW and it does indeed fuel the flames. I believe one day it will end - even though they certainly seem to be candidates for that 5% that don't. It doesn't really matter - I like my life now and I don't want him back. I do think that other family members who still interact with him, like DS for example, will feel better if/when they do break up. Though they may get used to her presence, she will always be a homewrecker in their eyes (and him in the eyes of her family).

Do you think pride would be another reason an A lasts longer? By that I mean they are miserable with OP but to end the relationship would mean they were wrong. Early in this post I relayed 2 A that I knew of that lasted a long time but did end. With both A's the WS was miserable with the OP for a long time. Their marriages were long over but they still hung on to the A for years even though the relationships were dead in the water.

BINGO LG,
If she sets the expectation of 6 months and she gets there and the A is still going on it will be crushing.

I agree w/ Rwinger on the Alpha male.

I also think that the alpha male thing makes some sense as far as ending a WW's affair.

I too, fell into the habits of not eating, sleeping...sobbing and crap. Found out that WW was still in contact sith OM during the duration of me doing this...up until the day after I had a RA, and happily told my WW about it.

She hasn't had contact with OM ever since (as far as I know).

Coincidence?

Introvert,

I know they don't advocate it here,

I would not advocate a RA ...

But some women are attracted to the "bad boy" (good example is the attraction women have to rock bands - sports) in the local bar who appears as an alpha male while her betasized husband sits at home taking care of the fort (or flopped on the couch watching TV.) Most women would never marry this bad boy but deep down may want that excitement. The husband was not always betasized either - but is a result of not taking his marriage seriously.

In general - women do not like weak men.

I recall during my hockey playing era when some of my team mates would get propositioned in a bar by married women to father their children. Unbelievable but very true. Its a joke amoung some athletes - how many kids are out there unknown to the fathers raising them that their bio-dad was recruited by mom.

Apologies if this is insensitive - but I have seen it. Just go to the local bar/hangout after a game to witness the groupies (married or single women) come out.

Before the advent of the Internet, which aided the spread of this information, I was somewhat friends with a guy who I will lable Dr. Quack. Over beer, he told me that at least 7% or more of babies born were NOT the husband's. This is fair common knowledge amongst certain healthcare professionals, just not discussed to any extent except whispers now and then.

Some women are controlled by their organs, just like some men, or should I say males.

Larry

I believe that this is one of the 1st things every BS needs to decide on quickly.

Once you choose it, it creates an attractive path back for the WS that not only the WS see's, but everyone that knows about the situation, or it adds mountains of data very quickly telling the BS to goto Plan B or Plan D to avoid the abuse.

Yeah, I wouldn't advocate it.