I'm full of 'em today, aren't I??

This may have a PAINFULLY obvious answer to the rest of you, so forgive my stupidity if that's the case. I guess the gears haven't fully engaged yet from the shock of it all.

Among everything else - having full access to all accounts, all passwords, both of us being 100% transparent, POJA, etc. I also installed keylogging software - he doesn't know this. I haven't given him access to my individual savings account, because that's how I bought the software - and it shows a PayPal purchase. I'm also feeling a little conflicted about having the keylogging software without him knowing - but it's really helped me keep an eye on him and even see him coming here to MB without any prodding from me, to read up on "How To Meet Emotional Needs."

So if I give him access to my savings, he'll see the Paypal purchase and ask me about it. But by not giving him access (he hasn't even asked for it), I kind of feel like I'm not adhering to the POJA. What's the right answer to this?

Whatever keeps you sanest. POJA has nothing to do with keeping your eyes opened for future contact. You deserve to sleep better with a keylogger in place.

Whoops, I guess that isn't POJA....told you the gears hadn't engaged yet, lol.

I hear what you're saying though.

Radical honesty is for RECOVERY when you both trust each other, not when it is NOT SAFE to trust. You can't be radically honest with someone you don't trust, who has proven he will HARM you in secret.

FOR NOW, keep protecting yourself and keep focused on snooping so he can EARN your trust again. [snooping is a great trust builder] Once he earns your trust, you can feel safe and let your guard down. But don't forfeit your protective measures until you are sure it is SAFE.

In other words, don't surrender your arms until you are SURE the war is over.

Thank you. I guess I was just feeling unsure. For some dumb reason I feel a little guilty snooping on him. I know, I know...don't throw stuff at me ....he has absolutely proven to be untrustworthy and has earned this, and he's not fighting it in the least. Having something to measure against what he says has been nice.

You feel guilty about protecting yourself and your children from someone who has harmed you?? Where can I throw my TOMATER???

LOL!! I told you it didn't make any sense! I can't explain why I feel that way. I guess I feel like a bit of a hypocrite because he was dishonest (or at the very least, only partially honest) for much of our marriage and I feel like I'm doing the same thing.

Ok, ok....bring it. ~squinting eyes~

Also, I don't believe you feel GUILT about snooping, but SADNESS, which is understandable. Guilt is a signal from our conscience that we are doing something WRONG. There is nothing wrong with snooping, though. [altho some ppl have been brainwashed into believing snooping is bad, just as some have been brainwashed into believing anger is bad]

Rather, I suspect you feel SADNESS that you have to have this secret at a time when you CRAVE intimacy and closeness. You feel SAD that you have to do this in order to protect yourself. That is understandable.

But, when you think about it logically you will see that snooping serves to protect your marriage from adultery so that you can ultimately build the intimacy you need. It also helps you learn to trust him. When you are able to see for yourself that he is behaving trustworthily when no one is looking, it will help your trust grow in leaps and bounds.

It's not at all uncommon for someone who has always been trusting to feel guilty about snooping a bit. When you feel guilty just remind yourself this is necessary because you were betrayed.

ok, so you feel that CATCHING SOMEONE CHEATING is the moral equivalence of CHEATING?

Do you believe the POLICE are being DISHONEST when they spy on drug dealers?

It is INAPPROPRIATE GUILT to believe it is wrong to CATCH someone cheating.

Yes, you're right. I am VERY sad that I feel the need to do this. I hate this. I wish I hadn't contributed to the mess our marriage became. I wish he didn't make the choice he made. I wish I'd had better skills to develop the marriage I want and need instead of guessing (wrongly) at how to do it. And I am sad beyond belief that all of this has happened.

I'm also grateful for the lesson....and at times, I'm also grateful for the pain. If there wasn't pain involved in this lesson, it would be far too easy to dismiss it. There's no way I could forget this one.

No, I don't at all feel that it's morally wrong to catch someone cheating. Not in the least.

Thanks. I'll do that.