First...I am overwhelmed from lurking on this site, at the enormous amount of infidelity out there, it is the saddest thought to think that so many people are being torn apart inside because of S/SO lack of just plain selfishness and disrespect for their own being, man I could go and on with that one
Second...it blows my mind that there are so many caring people on this site to support and advise injured BS's...KUDOS to you all !!!

So I am finally here now too, I had hoped my situation would have resolved from the insight I gained reading but guess what....

D-day first part Sept08, found some sweetheart text messages. Started 6 years ago when H and OW were reunited after 25yrs at a common gathering (that I did not attend with him), immediately after they were exchanging letters, B cards, Xmas cards and phone calls which have escalated to the present. OW lives 7 hrs away so I know there was so physical contact up until ~2yrs ago. H claims he has seen her twice in 2 yrs, they are 'friends', 'glorified penpals' to be exact. Not to worry right.

So after huge confrontation and WWlll for about 3days, I got us into MC, found this site, and started Plan A (because I'm not ****ing stupid! )

Here is where I am at
My spirit is drowning waiting for him to come clean and show some overwhelming emotion about all of this. I really don't want to do Plan B, but the despair that I have been feeling is hindering Plan A. I am not prepared to take meds so I don't have these days of doom and frustration.

I need advice, I need some insight.

We have 2 kids, 17 & 19 yrs. old

Thanks

First I am so sorry you are here.It sucks. but I am sure a lot of the veterans will have some good advice.

If you can try your hardest to do a Plan A. It will leave him with good thoughts of coming home if you plan B. Plan A is very hard. I only found MB after 4 1/2 mos. so I didnt start plan A right away so I had a lot of time to get out my anger, wait for him to come clean and show emotion.

I just want you to be prepared that that may not happen for a long time. because i can tell you firsthand that my husband saw me have a breakdown, try to commit suicide and it did no good he still is with OW. luckily I got a plan A in before he moved out in April. Even if you can only do a short Plan A it will help. Plan B i found so much easier (not easy) because you take yourself out of the situation. You dont have to deal with all the horrible and unbelievable things that WS' usu. say to you.

And be prepared to find out that a lot more happened than u think betw. them.

and keep posting on MB for support there are some wonderful caring people here.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.
just one post and you have made me feel a bit better, that this whole thing might get better, this is also a better day for, mindset and all

I read something from Mark, I think it was from Mark, that the 'rising of the fog' can take as long as the affair itself
that is actually what shot me down since i don't think i can deal with all of this for 6 yrs

Vittoria,

Firstly, is he still pen-paling her?

If the contact is still going on, and they are "just friends" then he either does not get it, or he is getting it and doesn't care.

If he refuses to end the contact then it's plan A (which you can't do)or plan B which could force him to make a decision.

IMHO

kirk

I think Plan b is supposed to help them come out of the fog. because he has no communication with you so it kind of forces him out of the fog. but that is not what Plan b is for it is to preserve the love you still have for him. Because most WS say and do the most unbelievable things. So out of character to what the spouse used to be. You know fog-babble.

My husband also had a two year physical affair and five years he worked with her before that. So I guess we just hang in there until they snap out of it, Affair breaks up, or we are just done. I dont know how much longer I can even take plan B but I think MB says no more than two years. Mine has been 8 mos. but I am starting to accidently hear of cracks in his affair. Hopefully its crumbling. but i wont hold my hope very high.

had to exit quickly....H came home for lunch

krusht
to answer your ? ...the last letter that i found was from 2005 and i could tell that they had not been together but she was always probing to hear from him more, asking about our relationship and whining about hers...she sowed alot of seeds if you know what i mean
H destroyed the most recent cards and or letters after i found another damaging piece of evidence late sept. H said he just wanted them all gone but insisted they were innocent
H left 2 messages with OW the night i confronted him, sent a text to contact him shorty after that
nothing concrete since

NC letter was written 1 month D-day which H said he had no problem with but never 'got around' to doing it, although i had asked for it sooner, the MC pushed him to do this and i feel that is why it got done
exposure was done within 2 weeks but only to some friends, i do wish now i had included his family ( really really hard to do, i felt like such a loser )

there have been some unusual things i've picked up on lately that makes my gut feel that he has contacted her via mail which i cannot monitor, i almost think he has a secret PO box

H says he has had no contact
not sure if paranoia is part of this process i'm in

can you do a keylogger on his computer and a voice activated recorder in his vehicle? i also am appalled at the numbers on affairs. and to think only a small number make it here...

Vittoria,

Paranoia = "unusual things i've picked up on lately that makes my gut feel"

Same thing.

Is the pen pal married? Did your exposure extend to her? If she was whining about her relationship, she must be in one.

I take it your husband is not remorseful and just going through the MC motions to smooth things over?

Did you see the NC letter, approve it and MAIL it yourself?

He never told you about the pen pal, until you discovered her?

""H destroyed the most recent cards and or letters after i found another damaging piece of evidence late sept. H said he just wanted them all gone but insisted they were innocent""

The others here in the halls of MB will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Plan B is not effective when you still live together.

May I suggest intensifying the Plan A, but also bring in the big stick part of it also, i.e. the carrot and the stick.

SNOOP and maybe even hire a Private Investigator. You may want to find out more about the OW to expose on that end too.

IMHO

kirk

StillH

i find it hard to ignore the babble and not respond to it, i'm more of a 'straight shooter' and this gets me 2 steps back lately
Plan A was easier a month ago i seemed to be able to control my mouth and thoughts, now it seems i get frustrated more easily

when H came in for lunch a while ago and we talked about this 'stuff' i had to go into another room and i literally held my lips shut tight with my fingers to shut myself up

i know in Plan A you are not suppose to talk A,M, or R , this is what is dragging me down, i'm trying to see if H has made the progress i have and when he fails the test i'm heartbroken

i've read why Plan A cannot go on too long, protection of self and saving love units for recovery, i soooooo understand this now, not when i read it though
i don't know if i am at the point of Plan B or need encouragement to cont Plan A since it has only been ~3months

H behavior has always been and still is, affectionate which confuses the heck out of me
i am trying to help him so much but he just doesn't get it
we went away for a couple of days in oct. and in the car i read to him about EN and LB etc and i felt like 'this is great' he was totally accepting of it all
but i also know you are not supposed to try to educate them, i find that hard, i'm looking for quick fix aren't i?

to answer all your questions
keylogger in place but nothing is showing up...we only have one comp for family

have not felt need for a recorder since i monitor phone bills and his phone

OW-contacted her XH of 2 or 3 yrs (he is aware of their friendship and has met my H) and asked what his impression of their relationship is....he said "oh it's good, they have a real good relationship but i have not been around for awhile" they are apparently attempting reconciliation

H destroying recent cards/letters...i didn't believe him for one second what he said about that, i told him he just confirmed more guilt

NC was written by me guided from SAA, he rewrote it and i mailed it personally
H had been assuring me that if he had all of the letters that he had sent for me to see that it would be clear that this was all innocent so in the NC it was asked that she return all correspondence and pics of his family that he said he had sent her (isn't that just the sweetest thing, thinking of us...PUKE! )
nothing has arrived and i believe he followed up with the NC, a DON'T SEND ANYTHING letter

i don't intend to do Plan B while still here, that would be a disaster i know

PI...would do me no good at this time, i know where he is most of the time and she is far away, i need to save $$$ at this point if it comes to my moving out

where can i read about 'carrots and sticks' ???
btw thank you so much for your thoughts and advice, it verifies some of my thinking

another question
i don't think my H has gone thru withdrawl, livid at first then once Plan A started he was great...as long as we didn't talk about 'it'

so i wasn't in his head to read his thoughts and really haven't seen signs of depression
does this mean he has broke NC or could i have missed it???

i did find out what 'carrot and stick' meant, will hold off Plan B and use the C&S thing for a while longer

.

May I suggest intensifying the Plan A, but also bring in the big stick part of it also, i.e. the carrot and the stick. (by Krusht)



i understand intensifying Plan A, what would a 'big stick' part be
could anyone give me an example?

although WH says there has been NC, he does not seem to understand a relationship of this length is at greater risk for continuing, is my thinking on this correct?

Read your posts last night and have them on my mind. I don't have much time to post but here goes:

It sounds like you are not sure if there is contact between them right now.

I read that you are trying Plan A. But you mention that Plan A means something like act nice. Are you also reminding him in various ways that the deceit of this affair and violation of your relationship hurt you greatly? That is not a lovebuster. There are times when explaining to him how violated you feel are neccesary.

Since it appears that there was a huge EA component of this A where he used the US mail, you are having a hard time assuring that there is truly NC.

That is why I say you need to set up a polygraph for your H.

I don't see how you will ever have peace that this long term EA has truly ended.

Your sitch is my nightmare. My H's EA was short term because I got wind of it very early. But it took my discovery of it to get him to see the sized of the betrayal and the danger of his activities.

It is hard to think that such a long term EA was not a PA. THat is another reason you need the polygraph. You need to know what you are dealing with and you need to know the truth to recover.

Thank you for post laker53

H denies that it was ever PA, only saw her 2x in 3 yrs but I believe it was an EA that turned PA sometime in the past few yrs.

Believe me the length of this A is extremely difficult
Also hard to swallow that I was so blind during these years...looking back I do see some signs but it just never entered my mind that he could or would do this
But I know that I am not the only one in this situation who was blindsided, hindsight right

Anyway... where would you go for a polygraph ???
H said he would take one but it was said sarcastically shortly after
D-day you know " What do want me to DO, get a POLYGRAPH ?????????"

Would looooove to tell him he actually has an appt. with one!

Something really infuriated me the other day
I found a 5 digit # in his wallet that had not been there before and since I suspect he has a secret mailbox I went to the post office. I didn't see that # section on the boxes but there was a series before and a series after... so where was the series I was looking for? (thought maybe there was another section hidden in the back) I asked the woman in the depot if this was a post box #, didn't ask for a name, height, weight or medical background and I was rudely told "We can't give that kind of information out, that is private"

I am so sick of all this privacy crap.

Thanks

I have read of people on this forum arranging for a polygraph for their WS pretty regularly recently. Have you tried a yellow page web search, or the local phone book?

How about the local police station or a detective? They might be able to tell you of someone.

Set up a list of questions you want answered. I have read on this forum that many WS or F?WS go along with the polygraph and then at the last minute, as they are getting out of the car, fess up with some small truth that they had withheld. But BS are advised to continue with the polygraph test.

I just get the feeling that you need to know more about this EA or PA. He has been very secretive by trashing all the letters. Since it was very long term for an EA, it could be difficult for him to truly stop the correspondence. He could be covincing himself that she needs him and that he would be letting her down if he did not continue to "support" her.

I really encourage you to go for the polygraph. It could help you get through this rough period and help you figure out if you are currently in recovery, ie no contact or not.

How would he be paying for a PO box? Does he have a checking account? Exactly how much money is a PO box and how often is a payment due for it? That might help you look for the money trail. But I would go the polygraph route if I were you.

I have a friend who is a cop, it never occurred to me to ask him...duh me
I just left a message with him about that...thank you

When you mentioned the part about him 'convincing himself that she needs him and that he would be letting her down if he did not continue to support her' that sounds like a reason that he would have in his head.
The early letters from her were very 'needy' so to speak and always so appreciative of his support. In general my H has a big heart so I can totally see this.

I've looked at credit card statements and cancelled checks but have not seen anything to indicate payment for a mailbox, but he has on occasion gotten cash (couple hundred bucks) from his credit card. I don't know, I just don't know if maybe I am looking for him to fail more than what he already has.
Will call the post office today and ask about renting a box and payment methods.

Thank you again you have given me more food for thought.

I must have more patience, I must have more patience, I must have more patience.
I can do this, I can do this, I can do this.

You CAN do this!!!

Keep us updated.

So can you. So can you. So can you.

thanks

Well you did a poor exposure when you found out about the affair -- I'm NOT knocking you, I don't think you even knew about MB yet so of course you wouldn't know to expose or how to do an effective one -- I'm just making an observation that it could have been better.

So it seems to me that you really need to find out if the affair is ongoing. A polygraph is an EXCELLENT way to find that out - especially since the affair was conducted mostly via postal mail. You can also find out if it was ever physical (and I'd be surprised if it wasn't, as long as it went on).

IF you find out the affair is ongoing, you need to do an immediate global nuclear exposure:
OW's H
H's parents
Your parents
Your children
And anyone else that has influence over your husband's moral and ethical behavior - such as a priest or close friend that you know to be pro-marriage.

I think you should also get a GPS and put it on his car - get one that tracks his movements and then you can see if/when he goes to the post office. Keep in mind that he may not be using the local PO, he may be using a different one.

Secondly I think you need to examine your interactions with your husband for Love Busters and eliminate those.

H destroying recent cards/letters...i didn't believe him for one second what he said about that, i told him he just confirmed more guilt - this looks like a big fat DJ to me.

I found this bit that you wrote confusing:
Why are you talking about this 'stuff' if you konw you're not supposed to bring up the A, M, or R?

Here's the deal: if the affair is ongoing, then YOU (the BS) don't try to talk relationships because that is a HUGE turn-off for a wayward. But once the affair is over, then you HAVE to talk about it. Figure out what caused it, figure out how to prevent it in the future. Get it all out in the open so it's no longer a boogey-man hiding under the bed and scaring you all the time.

So if he's bringing up the marriage, the affair, and recovery, then by all means listen to him and hear what he has to say. If you think he's in the affair then focus on meeting his ENs, eliminating LBs, and finding out for sure about the affair so you can expose if necessary.

It also seems to me that you're focusing too much on your husband and trying to make him do things your way. You can only control yourself. You need to learn to let go of this desire to control his behavior, as it will hurt your recovery and also the relationship that follows.
i'm trying to see if H has made the progress i have and when he fails the test i'm heartbroken
Leave his progress up to him. You work on your own progress.

This is confusing to me:
in the NC it was asked that she return all correspondence and pics of his family that he said he had sent her ... nothing has arrived and i believe he followed up with the NC, a DON'T SEND ANYTHING letter
Why were letters being sent after NC had been requested? I totally don't get that.

The early letters from her were very 'needy' so to speak and always so appreciative of his support. In general my H has a big heart so I can totally see this.
It's not a big heart, it's a big EN for admiration. How frequently do you admire your H, and in what ways? I would step up the effort considerably. Also think about your H's other top ENs and how you're meeting them.

In summary, I think you're down to:
1 - find out if the A is ongoing and if so EXPOSE
2 - meet his ENs (do you know what they are?)
3 - eliminate LBs
4 - focus on changing yourself, not on his changes

When you know a little better what is really going on, then you can set boundaries, expose, Plan B, or whatever - but for now you need to hunker down with the list above and find out what's going on with your H and OW, if anything.

saw your post as I was heading out the door and had no time to reply but this was a good thing b/c I had a chance to think about some of your observations

I agree that I did a really lousy job of exposure, I have figured that about for the last month. I now understand the 'nuclear bomb' part. I think it would have crushed my WH if any of his family knew, for that reason it would have been more effective.
Two good friends of his that I told spoke with him but he fluffed them off, making it out to be less than what it was. 6 other friends know and my sister and BIL.
Would advise anyone to do this the way it should be done.
I was so scared and felt foolish.

As far as the polygraph, cop friend not able to help me.
I left a message with a PI this aft. and waiting for him to call back.

I'm not sure about a GPS, he tinkers with the vehicles so he may find it, and doesn't always take the same one, I mean our vehicles are not designated 'his' and 'hers'.
Plus if you park downtown there are many places besides the PO that you can go
I need one implanted under his skin!

OK the PI just called back with a price for the polygraph..$1100 or $1000 utt, the tech is certified, does video pre and post polygraph interviews etc. but I just about **** my pants !!!, I had no idea it would be that much.
If this is the only alternative I will do it but it would have to for sure wait until after Christmas. Plus there is a waiting list of 2 wks so that puts us at Dec. 25th...no thank you
Any other suggestions???

Moving forth, what you said about our interactions made so much sense. I wasn't sticking to the plan as well as I should have b/c I didn't really understand why you shouldn't talk about these things in Plan A. I just knew you weren't suppose to, so I don't think I focused as much as I could have.

I will also focus on my progress, not his, that one will be hard, just being honest.


"This is confusing to me:
in the NC it was asked that she return all correspondence and pics of his family that he said he had sent her ... nothing has arrived and i believe he followed up with the NC, a DON'T SEND ANYTHING letter
Why were letters being sent after NC had been requested? I totally don't get that."

I think WH sent his own letter after the NC letter advising her either not to return his previous correspondences and photos of his family, or to direct them to his other mailbox (if he does actually have one)
The point of her returning these things (which were asked for in the NC letter at the end) was b/c my WH was 100% positive it would clear any romantics. I was trying to call his bluff. She has sent nothing back.
I understand now this was his 'fog' voice talking....right?? It should not have been included in the letter.

You are bang on with admiration being his top need, he says it is affection but I think admiration is first. I know I have not been meeting that need for some years.
I will meet them.

I feel like you have put some pieces of a puzzle together for me with everything you read from my post. Why haven't I been able to do that?? Never ending ? isn't it

I apologize for being so lengthy.
Thank you/all others so much for your thoughts.
I need to get some H/W done, will try to pop back periodically over next 2 days.

Shop around for the polygraph. That price sounds high and it also has bells and whistles you don't need.

Does he have a simple polygraph exam without the pre post video?

Is the PI getting a kickback? I know you can't ask, but it sounds like it. I remember 400 dollars mentioned on this forum i think.

Vittoria,
So you think he sent the NC letter asking her to return his stuff (because he was backed into a corner by you calling his bluff), and then followed up with a private letter saying NOT to send it? If so, that's indicative that he's still in a VERY wayward mindset, and you're right to be concerned about ongoing contact. It sounds like he may be doing just enough to appease you, with no intentions of ending the A.

This might help you find a polygraph examiner, I don't know how good it is but it's a start:
http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/listcountries.php

I will also focus on my progress, not his, that one will be hard, just being honest.
I hear you. The natural tendency is for the BS to become obsessed with the WS. It's a hard tendency to fight but truly you have to focus on yourself and attracting him back to the M. You can't focus on his progress or what he's doing. He's the lost soul and to base your actions on his cloudy judgment would be... well, less than optimal Besides, you already know you can't trust what he says or does right now. Lots of it is lies, coverup, and appeasement. It's probably quite changeable, too. So just hunker down and set your sights on your own goals.

Some wise person here on MB made the analogy years ago of the BS being the lighthouse. There was a post that got quoted often and referred to, but I haven't seen it recently. The gist of it was this: You, the BS, have to be the light house. You shine a beacon guiding the WS back to the marriage. The WS is out at sea, floundering, but you cannot allow his floundering to make you waver. You have to be rock solid, and steady. If you try to go out into the stormy sea to rescue the WS, or teach him how he should be navigating, you may both end up drowned. So you stay the course, unaffected by his floundering. The WS will come closer at times, and drift farther away at times. You are unaffected by this, because you are rock steady, shining your light.

It was beautifully written. I hope you get the idea.

thanks laker53 and turtlehead, you guys are really helpful, I can usually troubleshoot not too bad but my brain doesn't seem to like this problem and gets stuck in 'idle'

I went to the website you posted and it was great, I found a place mentioned not too far from where we live, I will email them when I am done on here. Thanks for mentioning a price, that will be helpful.

I remember reading something about a lighthouse, but scimmed over it not really understanding it, I do now, thanks for clarifying the message within.

I posed this ? before but it got missed.
Is it possible to miss WD in the WS or is it so obvious, it can't be ?
What would some specific behaviours be ?

Past 2 days have been good, no LBing exchanges, no talk of anything I'm not supposed to talk about. In my head is a different story, I feel like a hypocrit...think one thing and doing another.

One thing I absolutely despise is 'two-faced' people, and that is what I am right now. If my WH ever calls me on this in the future, I know I will not be able to justify some of my actions.

Anyway again, thank you so much for keeping in touch.

To answer your question,
My FWH had no withdrawal symptoms afer he wrote the NC letter. But he had only spent four weeks involved in the EA. So your H was either not really invested in the relationship and was willing to go NC, or he is not in NC. I suppose it is possible that he is hiding or burying his withdrawal symptoms, but it is doubtful.

That is why I think you need the polygraph. I don't think you have the whole truth. Maybe he spent several years in an EA with her and easily stopped it. But it is not probable. I am just going by what I have read on this board and probability from an intuitive perspective.

hi laker53

I hear exactly what you are saying and believe me I have my doubts too.
Your suggestion of the poly was great, I am going to do it.

As soon as I logged in tonight there was a thread on polygraphs, how crazy is that!
I will follow that one to learn as much as possible.

I doubt WH could hide WD, he has known this person too long...30yrs and then reunited 6 yrs. ago, slim chance. I feel like I am coming out of my own fog sometimes and it bites.

Do you think that your H is in contact with the other woman? Is he telling you that he has no contact with her? Has he answered all your questions about his relationship with her?

Yes, I think he has had contact since the day he was busted and for sure since the day the NC letter was sent which was about 10 weeks after D-Day.
WH says NC since shortly after D-Day but I do not believe him, certain things don't make sense. It's detailed and long to explain and I really don't want to be a long winded poster.

The contact that I am talking about is phone/letters, I know there has been no physical contact since D-Day.

WH will answer any question I ask him but I don't believe his answers. There are too many suspicious details and his answers are bizarre. I wouldn't describe him as a bizarre sort of person, he is a regular kind of guy. I have no proof of a PA but there are enough inuendos (?sp) to say otherwise.

So that is why I want the polygraph, to put an end to this game I feel like I'm in. I so do not want to find out more info 6mos or a year down the road. I want it figured out now.
Thus the name of my thread...Plan B or you guys...I didn't know what to do, and could feel myself losing control, but the advice I have gotten here has helped a great deal.

Things are easier to do when you have a plan and support.
I have some very good and longtime friends but they do not seem to appreciate the enormous affect this has, but I'm pretty sure none of them has been in this spot.

See, I still have a lenthgy post and I even didn't describe any details !
Thanks for looking back in on me.

Thanks for the clarification. Did you mean to say that you know that there has been no physical contact since D Day?

I hope you have success in finding a person to implement the polygraph exam. I would find your situation very difficult. It is too bad that your friends don't understand. I have to say that I more fully understand the pain that people go through re affairs now that I have had a small taste of it.

I know a guy who is going through it now--I just heard about it, but it all started in June. Fortunately, he seems to be getting some good support from some friends.

From Turtlehead....thanks
In summary, I think you're down to:
1 - find out if the A is ongoing and if so EXPOSE
2 - meet his ENs (do you know what they are?)
3 - eliminate LBs
4 - focus on changing yourself, not on his changes

When you know a little better what is really going on, then you can set boundaries, expose, Plan B, or whatever - but for now you need to hunker down with the list above and find out what's going on with your H and OW, if anything.


[/quote]


OK, this is where I am at.

A polygraph is booked for Jan.31 @ 1pm (after much shopping around found one for half the price of my original quote )

At present there is a letter in the postal system addressed to the questionable postal box I believe he has, it has a return receipt on it so I will know if it gets delivered.....thank you Jim Flint ! who knows, the # that I found could have been a part for a piece of machinery, time will tell

Have been meeting EN's but still feeling like I am a '2 faced person'

Pretty good at knocking out the LB's....did have 1, only 1 last week when I asked for a boundary to be in place and that was met with resistance from WH

Have truly focused on my own progress not his



Now, I did not want to tell my H today about the poly, but will have to tell him tomorrow. It is on Wednesday.
I need suggestions as to how to approach this in the most non love busting way, although I know it will seem to him like a huge LB

Help me out please

It is now today..... can anyone give me some ways to approach this polygraph in a non love busting way ??????

I'm really stuck

Thanks

Just tell him that you don't feel assured by the story he has told you and tell him that him passing a polygraph would reassure you. This would be in his interest too, because you know he wants to regain your trust. This way he could PROVE to you he is being truthful.

WS: YOU MEAN YOU DON'T TRUST ME??? :MrEEk:

Vittoria: No

WS: I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DON'T TRUST ME!!

BS: It is true, I don't trust you, but I WANT TO. That is why I am giving you this opportunity. I want to trust you and I know you want to EARN my trust. This is why I would like you to take the polygraph. Passing it would help you regain my trust and you do want me to trust you, don't you?

Oh that sounds really gooooood !

Thank you

I hope this does not become an issue between now and Wednesday and I hope he follows through with it.

I am so scared that he will fail this test.
It seems our relationship is so superficial right now, not sure if it is on his part b/c he is cake eating or on my part b/c I don't trust him or I just don't know enough about his A.

Anyway.....thank you so much for your reply Melody !

You can add to your statement:
I feel like our relationship is very superficial right now. I feel like I have lost my footing, I don't know if it is because you are still contacting OW, or if it is because I just don't trust you, or if it is because I just don't know enough about your relationship with OW over these past years.

But I don't want a superficial relationship. I want a special and intimate relationship. I want the best relatinship that a man and a woman can have. I believe we can achieve that relationship. I just need this help from you as a start--the polygraph.

laker
You just put my thoughts into a wonderful non love busting statement....thank you

Could you come over here and tell H about the poly.....????? lol


Will let you know how it turns out

I spoke to H, explained it in a non-accusing manner just like what was suggested, I really did do a great job of it. He agreed with everything I said about gaining trust back, wanting more than a superficial relationship, all the stuff right up to the point where I mentioned the 'P' word

His replies were

1) silence with a sober somewhat smug look

2) " this is really uncomfortable for me "

3) " they are not 100% accurate you know "

4) " I am not doing a polygraph "

5) " I told you there was no sex "

6) " what if a person was thinking about doing something but didn't do it, that would come out as if they really did do it"

7) " never did I think that talking to someone on the phone would ever lead to this"

8) " this is ridiculous"

9 " would you take one " to which I replied ABSOLUTELY, I have nothing to hide

After a bit more convo about repairing marriage and his committment to this, he said he had the afternoon to reconsider the test.....he left to go do some work

I was somewhat prepared for this answer but it still hit me like a ton of bricks, I feel like I am back about 50 steps and I just don't want to go there.

My questions now are

Do I wait until tonight to react to his refusing the test in hope he will decide to do it, or do I react this afternoon

Is this where I have no alternative but to go to plan B

I can go to a friends place and stay, have already discussed this with her, but I really don't want to leave my home.....

This next option is the one I am leaning to...
My in-laws live a few miles away, I am willing to go over there with all of his stuff and expose to them the affair and present situation, ask them to help me save our marriage and allow my H to stay with them until he decides to start taking responsibility and finally end contact with OW. ( I have no proof of contact but a deep rooted gut feeling from certain things that don't make sense )

I have a bunch of stuff in my head to say to them but I can't write it all down, I'm a slow typer.....but it all sounds good, trust me

I was slow to react the first time, I don't want to make the same mistake again

I've not mentioned this before, but the text message that I originally found 4mos ago read "Miss you baby xoxo WH" man I can still see it plain as the light of day
This is what has led me to believe the EA has gone PA

I am beside myself right now, can someone give my some guidance please!!!!

he's not being honest - the requirement for a polygraph just became more important

This is a classic letter ... applicable when your adulterous spouse is not willing to disclose the details of the affair ... but wants to recover the marriage ...

Here ya go! Make a copy of the letter and hand it to your husband -

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Has he told you that he has gone no contact with her? Has he told you everything about the relationship--has he answered all your questions?

I think that you need to let him know that you need to know the truth, no matter what the truth is. It is radical honesty that you need in order to begin to create the intimacy in the relationship that you crave. You can remind him that there cannot be three people in your marriage and as long as he keeps secrets with OW, even if they are only past events, that creates three people in your marriage.

I suggest that you prepare some statements to him like that stated above, and let him know that you need the polygraph. I would suggest that you keep your statements somewhat succinct and that you not get into a debate with him. Getting into a debate would let him think that he had wiggle room. Basically, let him know without a threat that it is a polygraph that you need from him.

If you feel like you can push back the date of the polygraph, then you could do that, but you need the polygraph. As long as he refuses the polygraph, you can tell him that you feel he is keeping secrets from you about the relationship with OW. Certainly a polygraph will be able to differentiate between did you do this and did you think about doing this. It can also differentiate between did you touch her with your hands, lips, etc.

You can decide, but I would suggest that you give him a little time re the polygraph. But make it clear that you need the polygraph.

this is a response to Pepper's post, I got it in too late for it to be right underneath of hers



I know, I just don't know what to do now

I want to crawl under a rock, I feel like the way I did on D-Day

I can't force him to take it, but his reaction and refusing to take the test has just confirmed all that I believe has gone on and is still going on

Do I act today or wait, the test is scheduled for Wednesday, I won't cancel it until Wed.am, will have to pay a cancellation fee but that's OK

You: "Husband, I am certain I will not remain married to you without openness and honesty."
Then, be silent.
Be calm.
Wait.

Give him 48 hours to change his mind.
Then expose to everyone all at once.

This I do know---Do not leave your home. Never leave your home. How old are your children? Do they still live in your home? Stay put, do not leave your home.

Pepper : oddly enough I have Joseph's letter printed off, searched for it a while back after it was mentioned in another thread.....it is a great letter and thank you for reminding me of it
and thanks for verifying that he is being dishonest, I needed that, feel like I am losing my mind

Laker : H says he has had no contact, so why wouldn't he be willing to do the test ????
Because I think he is LYING
I did explain everything you mentioned about knowing the truth etc. I have learned a lot from your words
I will hold off doing anything right now, I don't want to jump the gun but nor do I want to miss an opportunity to do the most effective thing
Your post has calmed me down, I need to read it again and answer anything else
Thanks...again

Our kids are 17 and 19 both boys who refuse to believe that their father has had an affair, they are indifferent to it, not sure if this is because of their gender and they can't identify with my side or not

17 yr old is at home, 19 yr old is away at college but home for the holidays
We also have 2 children from my H first marriage, they are 28 and 26, they know nothing of what is going on

Pepper
I will tell H that and give him 48hrs, that seems more than fair for nasty fox

I think you are very correct with the above statement. You do not want to lose your momentum. You do not want him to think that he can gaslight you any more than he already has.

He is clearly being deceptive. You cannot build your relationship with him as things stand right now. Pepperband is one smart chick--you are fortunate to have her advise.

You and he need the polygraph.

At least you have a few days to refine your plan with the help from good folk on this board.

This thread link here

has a pretty interesting discussion about polygraph testing - and Dr Harley himself posted (around page 4 or so)

FYI

I am not sure about the idea of giving him "48 hours" You have the poly scheduled. The date is the date. What will the 48 hour deadline do for you? Pepperband, what do you think?

laker
Are you thinking the 48hrs should be up the morning of the test rather than 48hrs from this evening since that would give him/me more time to settle/negotiate this?

Not sure if that is what you are thinking
H won't be in until at least 11pm which is when I would tell him this, or it might have to wait until tomorrow if I am sleeping

Thanks laker

Pepper: have been going through that thread you linked about polygraph discussion, it's helpful, I'm not only a slow typer but reader as well, inbetween life this aft. I am only on page 4, will get through it tonite
Thank you

I think the mantra should be I need the polygraph. Setting up the 48 hour deadline just adds noise and gives him something to grouse about beyond the "I need the polygraph."

You know that you can cancel the poly if he refuses to go in the morning. In fact, I might go so far as to get in the car and wait for him on the morning of the polygraph. But you have a little time to think about that and act. Setting up the 48 hour thing is a red herring in my view.

The deadline is the deadline, the appointment is the appointment. Just get in the car at the appointed time. I think you might want to prepare for full exposure in the event that he refuses to get into the car with you.

Have you managed your boys in this manner at times through the years? You just quietly tell them that this is what you need. You have that sort of "mom" tone of quiet certainty. So often with my three boys, this was all that was needed to get cooperation.

I would not think in terms of "settle/negotiate". I would get into the "quiet certainty" frame of mind. When you think in terms of "settle/negotiate", you are acting from a perepective of fear and anxiety and panic.

I just re-read Pep's advise about giving him 48 hours and if he does not change his mind--expose to everyone.

You would keep that 48 hour deadline in your mind, don't say "you have 48 hours" Just keep that in your mind and then if he still is saying he will not go, you can expose him to everyone.

I still think it is possible that he will get in the car with you and go, even though he is saying up to the last minute that it is stupid.

vittoria, don't leave or make any ultimatums, just be a broken record as lake suggested. Let him know you need the polygraph in order to feel safe and move forward. "don't you want that too?"

[quote=lake53]I just re-read Pep's advise about giving him 48 hours and if he does not change his mind--expose to everyone.

You would keep that 48 hour deadline in your mind, don't say "you have 48 hours" Just keep that in your mind and then if he still is saying he will not go, you can expose him to everyone.


The traffic in this house is crazy, I have to log in, then log out quickly, (sometimes in the middle of a post...ugh) This A business is like the flu....you know...no time for it

Back to reality

I am confused about the time line now

I understand keeping the 48hrs in my head... got it....but 48hrs from when ??

So when do I say " I am certain I cannot live in a marriage with out openess and honesty"
Now or when I am waiting in the car on Wed. at 12noon ???

Sorry I am so thick, I need a step by step explaination

Is this correct...wait untl Wed., plant the openess and honesty line, if he doesn't show up in the car...cancel the poly and then expose...then send him to his parents which would be Plan B

got it....

Quote from laker
Have you managed your boys in this manner at times through the years? You just quietly tell them that this is what you need. You have that sort of "mom" tone of quiet certainty. So often with my three boys, this was all that was needed to get cooperation. [/quote]


For the most part yes. Dealing with an A has created a whole new challenge when it comes to them. This is such an adult problem and for the most part their issues have been 'kid' issues.

Earlier when I had to exit quickly, S19 and I had a chat. He asked what was wrong...looking at my face
I said " I know you guys don't believe that your dad had an A but it is true, I know it's hard to face and I understand how it's easier not to talk about it"
Anyway this led to a good convo, but now he is going to talk to his dad, not sure if that is good thing or not. He is 19 and fully able to understand it all.

BTW laker, you have pegged me pretty good

I like what Mel tells you. It has a lighter touch than saying you won't live in a marriage without opennes and honesty.

I would focus on that when you see him. Be the broken record.

I do not think you are at the point of Plan B yet.

You do not sound as though you need to go to Plan B in order to protect what little love you have left for him. You are dealing with a guy where it is hard to discover all his affair activities. You still have that PO box that you are investigating and that could bring you some good evidence. You are still at the point of investigating and have not yet fully exposed. As Mel always says, exposure is a powerfull weapon against the A. But you don't have all of the information that you need in order to do a good full exposure--meaning that PO Box---does that PO Box exist or not--.

So I do this up until Wed. when I'm sitting in the car waiting for him?

I don't know if I am still in Plan A you guys. H just came in for a bite to eat and has now left again to work ( family business where we live so he's always popping in and out )
He came in and acted like everything was fine, hunky dory.

I asked him, very matter of fact, "What is your plan for repairing this marriage"
Silence
Then started spewing all kinds of junk that had nothing to with the question.

This is where I get verbal diarrhea, I controlled myself as much as I could (no yelling)
He said he was quite happy right now, that his needs are being met to which I wanted to smack him with my very large cast iron frying pan....but I didn't

I told him that I thought he was cake eating, he was apalled that I thought he was lying about NC.....left with a final F you

Soooo when I see him again, I just cont with Plan A, ignore the conversation we just had, and cont with the plan for poly.....is this correct?

FYI....have been doing a good job of Plan A

If I don't say it enough....thank you all for the help

I would try to think of the Polygraph and Exposure as having their own individual timelines.

Stick to your mantra till Wed. noon. Watch him squirm and try to argue and negotiate, watch him try to get you into an argument with him in order to make you look like a b!tch. Maybe he'll throw you a bone about the A. On Wed. noon go to the car and wait for him.

If he won't go to the poly appt. Get all your exposure info and expose in one fell swoop. You can start your exposure plan right now--make a list of names you want to expose to, draft what you want to say to each one. You will want to include any PO Box info that you obtain.

As far as the PO box, the letter to it was mailed this past Monday.
The mail being what it is over Christmas, may not get a reply until late next week.

I really just would like to go out to the shed and knock over his Harley
World rocked for world rocked

OK, got it

I feel so much better
Thank you

I'm sorry that you had to come to this forum for the same reason I have....you seem like a very nice person
Everyone has been great and so helpful

Stay calm.

Try not to throw out relationhip type generalities like "what are you going to do to repair this marriage."

stick to your mantra, and keep to Plan A. Remember, throwing out, "what are you going to do to repair this marriage is not Plan A. Hopefully, you can refrain from saying that sort of thing for a few days. [I know it's hard. Just pretend you live in the South (maybe Texas) and just slow down a little. Those southern gals never jump the gun, they never try to knock over a Harley, or run anyone over with their big truck.]

It seems he is going to try to ignore the whole polygraph thing. I hope you get a couple other posters like Melody Lane and Schoolbus to help you through the next few days.

Don't pitch over the Harley and maybe you should consider take-out for a couple days

I also use cast iron and I know those pans are implements of destruction when raised over the head

Hang in there and have patience. I think it is fine that your son knows what is going on and how you are feeling about all of it. I imagine that your H will try to deny anything if your son talks to him, but it is fine for them to have that conversation.

Thanks for the chuckle

I'm going to settle down now for the nite with a movie and a glass of dandelion wine

Take care

Thank you. I think I am a pretty nice person and I think my H is a pretty nice person. He just did a very dumb thing. We figured out a lot about our relationship and things that he needed to avoid after the EA. He had countless opportunities to have an affair over the thirty some years of our marriage. It took contacting an old HS flame that got him hooked on remembering Glory Days and all that. It is a very slippery slope and he was heading down the ravine. They were e-mailing, texting and talking on the phone for three weeks. He got cold feet: She suggested she come up his way to visit HIM (not us). They arranged to meet at a coffee shop. He lied to me about his plans to get away alone to do it. After an hour, he said it was time for him to go. She looked shocked and puppy-sad and said she had no where to go for the rest of the afternoon, implying she thought they would have the day together. So he brought her home, pretending they had just "run into each other". He kept up the lies for another week and kept e-mailing her. Till he came out of the fog and realized how foolish he was being by trying to keep the relationship with her going.

When I looked at his little saved stash of e-mails, I could not believe it. He was upset that I looked at his private stash, but he quickly realized that he was wrong--sent the no contact letter after a day or so of drafting it. She tried a couple times to contact him, but we just did not respond.

He liked the admiration she gave him and he liked feeling like a hero to her. He was saying things to her that were an effort to bring their past relationship into the present time. At the same time, he sent her pictures of all of us and our home, etc. Yet he also was being flirtatous with her.

Thank you for sharing that
I give your H credit for not allowing it to go further, it doesn't make the ordeal any less hurtful though does it

As much as I read and read on this forum I will never understand the mind of a person who wanders from a marriage, do they not know they have someone who loves them more than they can imagine, right here at home

My H sitch sounds incredibly similar....college pal, not a sweetheart but said he did boink her once, she used to do his papers for him. After they graduated she sent him letters to his family home but he just never replied.

They met up at a 25th reunion. He said he just wanted to be nice to her because he had used her in college. She started back again by sending photos from the reunion, then an Xmas card and a Bday card. I remember seeing these 5-6 yrs ago but fluffed them off as nothing significant since I have many male and female friends from HS and college that I still keep in touch with.

After that I don't remember seeing much else. The first phone call to her (103min) was less than 3mos after the reunion, and he had already sent her letters. Anyway the phone records just showed more and more over the years. Her letters to him, the ones that I found revealed that he had sent her chocolates, and more letters.

My H didn't start travelling on short bike trips until a couple of years ago. He also discovered texting.....which eventually led to his demise
He lives very much in the past and also loves to talk about the good old days. They were his 'glory' days...football captain, wrestling etc.

He says that when he is on his bike he feels like a different person, no responsibilies to job etc. (and apparently none to his family either)

I did pop back b/c I thought of something

I am to call the poly examiner tomorrow at 9am.
I know the questions I want answered

1) was there sex

2) has there been no contact since D-Day

3) is there a secret post box ( I could just have the wrong #)

4) is there a secret cell phone


Are there any other questions I should ask that would be helpful???

Yes .... the 48 hours is between you and you - it is not an announcement you make to H as a threat, no threats. Also, no warning prior to exposure.

Give H some time to think about being honest - if he cannot be honest have a plan for yourself (the 48 hours was just a suggestion)

I'm tired and not making sense - sorry

These questions need to be more specific, off the top of my head:

Sex:
How many times have you been in close proximity (in the same room) to her since the reunion.
Did you physically touch her--take her hand, hug her, kiss her on the lips, kiss any other part of her body, was there any type of sexual relations

Have you spoken to her since D Day
Have you written to her since D Day
Have you texted her since D Day
Have you seen her since D Day
Has she spoken, written, texted seen you since D Day

Do you have a cell phone that is a secret

Do you have a post office box

These items I typed quickly off the top of my head.

Thanks for even stoppng back so late....

WS are 'freaks of nature' meaning that I can't quite figure them out
I thought my H would still be pissed over the conflicted convo last nite re. poly, but when I crawled into bed last nite, he rolled over and hugged me, like there was nothing wrong ?????

I will be cool and just cont to remind him that I need the poly to feel safe, and be able to move forward etc.

Thanks all

Hopefully I don't have to come back in a panic with anything unexpected before Wednesday.

Not sure if anyone is around that is familiar with my sitch but will take a chance that I might get some advice

The MC that we saw 5 times from Sept to Nov has slotted in an appt for us Monday eve. I had called him today to see if he had anything before Wed. which is the poly day. I am to call him back tomorrow to confirm or cancel.

I know most here do not have faith in MC, and I do tend to agree. What the MC allowed for us was that it gave us a neutral ground with mediation to talk about the A. Not sure if that makes sense or not.

Since my H is refusing to do the test, ( should mention that last week he said he would have no problem taking a polygraph...until he was told I had made an appt for one ) I was thinking maybe the MC would have some influence on him.
I have no idea how this MC feels about this sort of test, although in a session with me, he suggested using a PI.

Would it be helpful to go to this session or hinder the situation ?

Melody

If you happen to read this....I used your words on my H today and I honestly thought for a moment that I saw my real H in his face, just for a moment then he started babbling, but they were such great words to which nothing else had to be said by me
Thank you

I am not big on counseling in general. Maybe it works for those who have insight into their problems and want to make changes. Would they need counseling since they already have insight and want to change?? Mel singles out marriage counseling, but there really is no research that indicates efficacy for counseling in general.

So call this guy up and tell him that you have scheduled a poly for hubbie and let him know that this poly appt. will be the topic for discussion at your little soiree for Monday. Ask him how he feels about such a topic of discussion.

If he thought a PI was a good idea, maybe he can help you with your hubbie. On the plus side, you have set an agenda--to poly or not to poly--so the soiree will have a theme.

Mel has a good way with words, Her words have a way of giving a WH hope that he can have a fulfilling marriage with the wife. Maybe that is why he turned over and hugged you last night.

Once you are through all this affair discovery crap, you and he need to spend quality time together. I foresee you sitting on the back of that Harley with the wind blowing through your hair. For me and my hubby, we started running together, biking together and cross country skiing together--nothing motorized.

Vittoria,
How are things going? Did you go to that counseling session. Any sign of the old H?

hey laker, your post from Dec.27 left such a good feeling inside my heart

not really sure where to start but to say the sh*t hit the fan would be an understatement

let's start with Sunday around noon
didn't push it but reinforced again why I/we needed the poly
H blatently refused.....then a pissing match began

H: Why don't you take a poly first
Me: This isn't about me taking a poly, but if you book one I will take one
H: You take one first
Me: No
H: You take the one on Wed., it's already booked
Me: That won't guarantee that you'll take one
H: You take one first, what do have a dark secret that you don't want to come out

I know at this point I should have just walked away, that convo went on and on
I got sucked in big time and lost my control to ignore his babble
i'm so mad at myself for not walking away

I got myself into such a mess in my head, I couldn't protect myself anymore, his accusations, false justifications and more hurtful words just wore me down

I called him a mole, a coward and someone who didn't deserve anything good, and then I slapped him across the face, that face that had a horrible smug look on it

I then, went to his parents house, his brothers house, his good buddies house and then I called our son from his first marriage who is 26.

I told them all what was going on, that I needed help because I couldn't do it myself anymore
It made me sick inside, it was so very hard
I could see how much this was hurting all them, and I was the one saying the words
I wanted to puke

came back home, H working, filled suitcases with as much of his stuff as I could and put them on them outside infront of the garage
wrote a letter, I hadn't read any Plan B letters yet but sort of had an idea, read some later and I wasn't too far off with the one I did

H has been at a motel since. Left bitter with some real choice words. It was bad

I need to watch some TV or something right now
will be back to tell more, it just gets worse
that old saying is so true.......be careful what you wish for, you might just get it

from your tag line ....
How about you concentrate on the kids and the dogs as much as possible?

Not sure how to take that ???

I have a great relationship with my kids, I haven't brought them into this forum because there hasn't been any turmoil between myself and them, we have been supporting each other. They are my rocks and I am theirs.

The dogs??, that goes without saying....they always have our attention

Am I whining about what happened???
Please tell me if I am

I

When I said it got worse and be careful what you wish for.....

H came to the door tonight, I thought it was my niece, the porch light was out, I turned the light on and opened the door at the same time
If I had known it was him, I would not have opened it

I was the only one home at the time
H said he wanted to come clean, so then he started spewing

He said there was one more time that he saw OW, they had made out, no intercourse
He said he had gotten a BJ in Daytona last year
He said he'd gone to a R&T with some buddies after getting smashed at a bar

My take on this is
He's throwing me a bone so I think he has 'come clean'
Now I'm thinking all this is the tip of the iceberg and I really don't know this person at all

And he also told DS19 and DS26 which I think is more info than what they needed to know (the BJ and R&T)
They have also been on him to get IC and get honest

Hey Vittoria,
I think Pepperband just means that it all sounds pretty intense between you and H right now and that maybe it is good timing to just spend time with those that can keep you feeling whole.

It is likely that there is more than what he told you, but it is good that he was able to tell you these things. I bet it was not easy for either one of you. Who knows how much more there is to be told. But at least he was able to share some info with you. Are you able to feel that is a step in the right direction?

I do not know what your Plan B letter said. Are you saying that you still expect him to go to the appointment tomorrow? Does he have a route or pathway back to you?

It does not seem like you have a plan. I think this is because you do not know if there is no contact yet and you do not know what kind of infidelity you are dealing with. I still hope the Polygraph is an option.

I still think there is plenty of hope for your relationship and your marriage. I am not sure why you think that he should not have told his sons about his behavior. they are old enough to be told the truth. Take care of yourself.

The poly is still a go, I have not yet cancelled it, but I don't see my H going.

I haven't actually seen this as a step forward, I thought it was more like a step backward. I still believe he has more that he has lied about, and he was not sincere when he spewed this out....it was almost like ' you wanted it, well here it is '
he still tried to justify everything
the last thing he said or yelled before he left....."what do you expect when you put a hungry cat in a cage with a mouse"

Do I have a plan? Right now I'm still trying breathe so to say. I went to the counseling myself on Monday nite, H did not want it for himself or to go a couple.
It was really good. MC supported everything I did and explained that H's behaviour is becoming more immature and irrational as he comes closer to having to deal with everything.
MC said it's like watching a cheap sweater unravel...cool analogy

One thing that has been on my mind.....when H was saying that I had a deep dark secret, he eluded that our oldest son was not his. Believe me there is no basis for this, we dated for over 3 years and I am completely and have always been loyal and faithful.
I talked with son already this am and asked him if he needed me to take the poly for that reason, if because his dad had brought it up and he had now doubts (oh this is such a mess, I could just kill H for saying something like that) I explained to son that H was trying to move focus on me.
I told son I would absolutely do the poly for him but not to feed into H's game.
Son said he does not need me to take it for his benefit, he is confident with his paternity and sees what is going on/

Has this been an ulcer inside H ??? His first wife messed around on him and he was never sure if his son was his or not.

Since my plan B letter was written in haste and under duress it did not explain a pathway back.
I know that one stipulation that all of us have as a family for H to return is that he attend IC.
Our MC would be very good for this, he knows my H's issues better than I.

Do I send another Plan B letter when I get my thoughts more together?

As far as the kids knowing about the BJ and R&T.... I thought it would just make the image of their dad worse than what it already is, I don't know, that stuff makes me sick.... he's such a filthy pig and I hate him and I question what I even want right now, save M or ditch M....save M or ditch M

Should mention I also told my mom and her husband, I am so appreciative that all family is 100% behind us.

I also called OW exH, although I don't really know if they are divorced, but H had said they were trying to reconcile.
This guy said " well you know we are all human and [censored] happens"
I said my standards were higher than that.
He was of no benefit to call.

Before anyone asks
H is self employed
He would call OW at her workplace, I don't believe he was ever there so I don't know if notifying her place of work is relevant.
I can't imagine he is still in contact now.

This is why I think it is good that your WH has told your sons about his behavior. Even if he did it with ill intentions, now they know at least part of the truth. They are easily old enough to know the truth. It sounds as though the information your WH told them has helped them to understand that your H is wayward.

Ok that makes sense now, I didn't see it that way
S19 has sometimes, and only sometimes, eluded to the belief that 'if H had been happier in the M and had not gotten the cold shoulder' and has said 'well you have to see dad's point'
I have quickly tried to explain there are other options than the ones H has chosen and that I also should have sought MC sooner.....

I have had the benefit of learning from this site and the MC, I need to get sons into IC so they hear a rational view from someone else, I'm afraid this is turning into their dad just wanting more justification from someone other than himself

just read on another thread a good post about other options rather than A, will print it off and stick on the fridge

[/quote]


Ok that makes sense now, I didn't see it that way
S19 has sometimes, and only sometimes, eluded to the belief that 'if H had been happier in the M and had not gotten the cold shoulder' and has said 'well you have to see dad's point'
I have quickly tried to explain there are other options than the ones H has chosen and that I also should have sought MC sooner.....

I have had the benefit of learning from this site and the MC, I need to get sons into IC so they hear a rational view from someone else, I'm afraid this is turning into their dad just wanting more justification from someone other than himself

just read on another thread a good post about other options rather than A, will print it off and stick on the fridge [/quote]

You are fifty percent responsible for the state of your marriage. You are zero percent responsible for your husband's decision to seek an EA or a PA.

But I do not know how to suggest that you proceed now. He told you some truths in anger. I do not mean to upset you, but it would have been helpful if you could have turned into a stepford wife at that moment and said something like, 'let's just proceed with the polygraph and then figure out what we need to do to repair our marriage--I think we can fix it.'

When you mention another option rather than Plan A or B, are you referring to something called the 180? I really think that Plan A and Plan B are the way to go. But I do not know which one you are in. He certainly does not have fond memories right now of you, so it is not an ideal time to go to Plan B. On the other hand, it seems as though you are not able to sustain Plan A at this point.

If you go plan B, make sure you let him know exactly what the path back to you is. You would also need an intermediary so that you can have no contact with him. You also need to make clear that you are doing it to save the love you have left for him, acknowledge your mistakes in the marriage and let him know that you are certain that you and he can re-build a marriage. Sounds like you also set as part of his return to you-the polygraph.

sorry I wasn't clear enough, the post I was referring to was other options than having an affair, stick them on the fridge to help the kids understand that there is no excuse for an affair

The kids work with their dad, S19 is asking him this am if he will still take the poly

I don't know where to go from here either
The letter I wrote that was on his suitcases said much of what you suggested, but should I write another one with a plan for him to get back home????

If you are in Plan B, then you do need to write a letter with all of the components of Plan B. Look at the sample letters again. The most important part of the Plan B letter is including information for the WS so that they know that there is a way to get back into the Marriage and that they know exactly the steps to take in order to get back into the Marriage. You also need an intermediary that will protect you from contact with WH. Are your finances separated so that you do not need to have contact with him over finances?

I would wait and see if he makes the polygraph appointment. Do not do anything re a Plan B letter until you have everything sorted out. You two have had an intense couple of days. You might want to wait and breathe for a day or two and let the dust settle.

Just got off the phone with H, the third call actually but when he started to babble, I told him I would not listen and hung up.

This last call he was much more co-operative.
I'm picking him up (noon) at his motel and we are heading to the poly.

It's going to be hard to ignore the babble he might spew but I am determined I will and not lose control.

Need to call the examiner and specify sexual intercourse rather than sexual contact since he now has admitted to that.

Thanks for your support and advise, I get that you must be getting frustrated doing this on your own.
I am so grateful to you.

I am really glad to hear that he is agreeing to go to the appointment.

I am not frustrated in being the primary support recently on your thread. I just worry that someone else could give better information. There are some really experienced people on here like Mel and Turtlehead seemed to give you good counsel also.

I want to tell you something that I think is most important to you when you have contact with your WH today; keep foremost in your mind your

end goal

--visualize it--seriously--put a video in your head of you and him involved in a scenario of a happy marriage--an intimate joyful, sharing video in your head.

When he spews something ugly, think of what Mel advised you to say. Try to stay calm and look at your

end goal.

sounds like a good plan, am trying right now but all I want to do is cry

I'll be all right

thanks again, not to just you but yes to everyone who has guided me

20 yrs married with kids and 2 dogs
Have patience. Have patience. Have patience.
I can do this. I can do this. I can do this.

You and he are taking a step toward radical honesty. I think it is a big step toward marital intimacy.

I know it is hard, but it is a positive thing you are doing for recovery of your marriage.

Green, the color of calm.

You started a post with "hey" a while back. That is the family term of endearment when I talk to my oldest who is now 19 and away at University. It sounded very familiar to me when you used it....."Hey"............."Hey".

Are you Canadian?

100% rural Canadian farm girl

Need to leave now, I feel better and I look great if I do say so myself. Pink shiny lip gloss to boot.
Have read about the godess stuff.

Bye for now

If you are in the Eastern part of Canada, here is a shout out from across the...

Not from the eastern but have visited out there twice and it is amazing, there is something about being near the ocean that is so calming yet exciting
If I am out there again , I will give a big shout back

The verdict is in..... WH...HAS NOT have sexual intercourse with anyone, other than me since 2003

This was really good news but I didn't feel like I could jump and down and scream it to the world, I thought that would minimize everything else. He sort of thinks that this clears him. I do feel good, I honestly did not believe he would finally do it.
This is such a big step, I'm still cautious because I've been hopeful before and then knocked down, and of course I still here babble.

This was also good..... WH also admitted to calling her twice, from a pay phone (not sure where you find them anymore??) and from an employee's cell phone.
That was awhile ago but I forget exactly when he said it was. My mind was full of 'what if's about the test.
Had a good car ride there and back, when the babble started for the 4th time I threatend to drop him at the side of the road and he politely shut up.

This is not a test for the weak. After it was over he was visibly stressed out, have actually not seen him like this before. He was quiet and initially seemed really angry at me for wanting the test, arms crossed, pursed lips, red eyes and only looking out the window, saw the knees have little quibbles too.

I didn't say too much for awhile but I did tell him that I was proud he did it, and I felt a little safer and that it was a big step forward for both of us.

I also told him that this was one step of many at rebuilding. I couldn't live in a marriage without honesty and he had to deal with that issue before he could return home. I feel that if he returns too soon he will become comfortable and not have any motivation to change things. He needs to fix these things for himself, not just us.

I dropped him back off at the motel, we wished each other Happy New Year, I hugged him and left.
I so wanted to invite him back after he was done his work, but I didn't.

Not sure if anything I did was correct.....I need this forum in my pocket so as to refer to it before speaking or acting....

So now what ??? Not sure how to proceed

Happy New Year Everyone....2009 has to be better than 2008 for some of us...right?

Congratulations Vittoria.

This was a very big step for you and your H. I am really relieved to hear how well things went for you and him and I am glad to hear that you were able to give him praise for his actions related to the poly.

What are your behaviors that you want to change for the Marriage? Is he able to tell you what he would like to see changed?

It is also very good that he was able to tell you that he did contact her by telephone. I think it is important that you make sure he understands that you want to meet his emotional needs that she had been meeting.

Hopefully at some point he will be able to realize that it is not functional to live within his past. My FWh was able to say good bye to the young man that he once was. It took several months for him to figure it out, but that was a big part of us re-building our relationship and marriage. He just stopped cold turkey re-living past events.

We still struggle with some issues related to raising children.

Let him know that you want to know how you can meet his needs and get him back into the house as long as you do not think he is in contact with any OW.

It will take time for you to get over all of this and you still will have some times of anger. Is he ready to commit to radical honesty? Try to give him lots of strokes for the honesty that he gave you today.

I tried to call him last nite, no answer and didn't leave a message but he would have seen my missed call on the phone.
I read your post laker later last nite and decided to send him a text...said thankyou for his honesty today, i saw how hard it was him, I love you and want you home soon.
No response.
Left a 'happy new year' voice message about 1220am. I thought he would have called.

Although I don't feel like I'm ready for him to be around all the time if he is not ready to recover, he didn't sound (yesterday) like he was in a hurry to come home.
He even mentioned how expensive the crappy motel room he is in, and said he should consider looking for something else....like an apartment.

I have no idea what plan this is....I don't think this is one

Now I'm thinking 'what if he doesn't want to come back' and why

The making out session that they had according to him....he stopped in to visit her(July 08) on his way up to visit a friend further up north
After awhile it started raining and since he was on his bike and they had been drinking, she insisted he spend the night. He thought ok, will sleep on the couch.

She came into the room later that nite with a nightie and crawled on the couch with him. He said b/c of the alcohol he was of no use.....hence......there was no intercourse just alot of other stuff. (YUCK YUCK YUCK)

I know if I had not found that text in late Aug, the next time they had gotten together...it would be planned much better.....alcohol later rather than first.

I know I should be able to feel so much better and I do a bit about trusting him since he came clean but it's so hard not to think about this new info he handed me the other nite.

Maybe I'm just tired, I know I feel tired

Why would you trust him? He is still a wayward. The poly was a step toward the truth, not a step toward trust.

Focus on yourself now. Make sure that you are exercising, dressing good, smelling good, do the activities that you need to do--work, hobbies, home improvement, whatever.

You will have plenty of feelings about that info he gave you. He has confessed that he had an EA that led to a PA for that one night.

Thankfully, you intercepted that text and confronted him about it. You have done what you needed to do related to contacting him on New Year's eve. The ball is in his court now.

WH moved back home last night after 6 nights in a raunchy motel, couldn't take it anymore. ( I packed his stuff and threw it on the drive last Sunday )

He was more than willing to sleep in the shed, but there has been glimpes of fog lifting and positive conversations, so I agreed for him to move back in. I have missed him and I can see in his face now how badly he is feeling. No smugness like there was before.

I have had to put my hand up occasionally, you know how a crossing guard does while standing in the middle of the street, to his face when he starts to babble. But he seems to be getting better at recognizing what he is saying as to be excuses. ??not sure if that sentence makes sense

He was willing and even enthusiastic to do the MB weekend which I thought was wonderful. But, after considering the cost of the course, the flight (from Canada, not to mention the crappy exchange right now) and the cost to keep the business running while away we will look into phone counselling. So this is all good.

Have had some down times but have had pretty good ones too.
It's still really hard, I am seeing that he is having a hard time with shame and remorse. He is not someone to talk out his feelings with friends so it's pretty much me which I feel conflicted over, I mean it's a hard thing not to LB something back.

I am better and I am continuing to read threads for advice.


PS Thank you laker, you have been my lighthouse.