I have not posted much on my situation in a little while, but thought I should, since I could use some advice.

As of the first of the year, my FWW quit her job and moved back home. So, that nets out to 3 years and 9 months we were separated with her A starting about a year before she moved out and NC really happening about a year before she moved back. There were a handful of "moving homes" and several broken NC's in between.

Anyway, so what to do now? I guess I am torn between rolling up my sleeves and pro-actively trying to see if things can work out, or just sitting back and see what happens. I can sense that my FWW wants me to lead or tell her what I want, or something, but I must confess I am a bit reluctant to engage.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to get things started. What would people suggest?

I think after that long, she needs to step up and lead recovery. Why not bring her here?

Rprynne,

As Mortarman can attest to...after a looooong battle to save your marriage...undertaking another "fight" for actual recovery is difficult.

I think it's slightly due to post traumatic shock. You've been in fight mode for a long time. It may not seem that way, based upon what I know of your personality...but you've reached the finish line of ending the affair and saving your wife only to have someone say it's time to run another marathon called "recovery".

I personally doubt you are in the condition to lead right now. You may WANT to...but I doubt you are mentally able to. Your wife needs to be told and understand that you are going to be depressed for awhile here and unable to really truly undertake some big recovery effort. You need time. 3 months, 6 months...whatever (I think Mortarman will say he took nearly the entire last year). Plus...imo, true recovery occurs when the wayward leads the mental part anyway and addresses their issues on their own, lest it feels forced and unauthentic.

Until then...work the basic program. Early recovery couples should spend 15-25 hours together alone. Try to investigate/figure out recreational things you both like and can do together. Try to discover some new recreational activities you both like and can do together. Forget the "program" or undertaking some formal recovery program for a few months and just be.

I'm NOT suggesting sweeping it under the rug. You should be clear that "recovery" will be undertaken; however, YOU need a break where you can just BE. It would also be nice if your wife undertook some leadership herself and undertook, without your prodding, working and fixing herself. Individually, she's got more work to do than you anyway...so it'd be nice to see her get to it. I don't know how well a betrayed can LEAD a wayward to working on themselves...she either wants to do it or not and she needs to do it whether your spent and down or not. It would be a gesture of compensation for her to realize that you are going to be down for awhile and she can pick up the slack...SHE can make the plans for stuff for you two to do together, SHE can push you to DO things you both enjoy instead of just wallowing at home with you spending such time together watching TV, she can start buying and reading the materials and initiating conversations about MB concepts (as you've got a grasp on them already) etc..

Consider AD's. Keep up with your gym (this is often the time betrayed's put back the weight they lost fighting for their marriage).

Good luck friend,

Mr. Wondering

CLICK HERE~~> MARRIAGE BUILDERS WEEKEND!!!

And HERE~~~> DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!

Mrs. W

I have suggested this, but it is doubtful. She has been here before and is quite fearful of how FWS get treated here on occassion.

I agree. But it makes me anxious about things.


This is good advice. But to be blunt, this will be a struggle. I do not think my FWW can handle me being "down."

I have question, perhaps answered elsewhere by you, but why did you let her move back home?

After so long?

Despite what they say about Plan B preserving your love for the adulterer, absence does not make the fart go honda. It more often than not simply allows you to forget the adulterer.

Do you even like her (feelings of love are irrelevant) now?

On a scale of one to ten, how much do you actually desire marital recovery with her after all this time? Almost four years is a rather long time, you know. A very long time. Twice the Harley recommended Plan B period. Shoot, I could have gotten another PhD in that much time. And moved to Mars, or something. And come back again.

So, have you changed?

Would you be devastated if she left yet again? For whatever reason?

OK, rats. Sorry. Too many questions.

Just like the start of recovery, huh.

BTW, I recommend the weekend too. Think she’ll go?

Poor baby. Poor little adulteress. We might all tell her to step up, huh. If that’s what you want her to do, that is.

What do you want? In the end? Not how you get there, but where it is you want to get.

PS: Sorry if this sounds curt. I am in a hurry is all.

I'm gonna differ a bit from Mr. W here...I think that you are going to have to lead, rprynne...I think that has been an ongoing problem in your marriage - "headship"...You have NOT taken the lead, and I believe that is your rightful place...You have allowed her to run willy nilly for far too long...

There are really only two options here that I see...

1. You work the MB program fully and completely - TOGETHER - at your suggestion and initiation.

2. If she doesn't get onboard, you divorce.

Sorry if that seems like an over-simplification, but it's just the way I see it...

Mrs. W

What is different this time?

I can scarcely believe I am saying this but I totally agree with Aphelion - great post!

Yes, EXACTLY. She needs to be here. If she is still afraid of what people will say I doubt her willingness to do the work.

Good question by Aphelion. What do YOU want, rprynne?

rprynne,

Most know that I am very very promarriage. Given her track record, I am wondering why you care? I am wondering how you would ever develop the confidence that she won't leave yet again? I am wondering why you would put any effort into this until and unless she really is committed to staying this time? I am wondering WHAT THE HECK ARE THINKING?

Even more importantly I am wondering what she is thinking and why she has come back yet again?

I don't think you start working on this marriage. Frankly, I think you divorce her and THEN if she really is interested in being with you, the two of you start courtship up and see if at this age there really is something there. I know this is not MB, but you two are now strangers. The person you married is long gone. You have no idea who you are married to now, and really you should have a clue.

I really don't see much hope for this marriage unless she makes some major internal changes in her perspective and thinking.

I will say this sit back and see what happens. I wouldn't think of doing anything strenous until and unless she can remain at home for at least 6 months. I don't mean be cruel to her, but buddy I would not be investing much right now.

Just some thoughts. I did take the time to look back through your old posts, many of which I had read...what a mess.

God Bless,

JL

It sounds to me as though you are looking to protect your W from the consequences of her actions, ie your being "down". She's sitting back, waiting for you to lead, and you're afraid to make a move, for fear that she can't handle it. (And might leave?)

So you both remain in stasis. She is coasting on your inertia, nothing in her character is being challenged or stretched, and you're paralyzed. Does this sound healthy?

My crystal ball is a bit chipped, but I see another false recovery in your near future unless you are willing to tell her that she needs to step up to the plate and get to work.

Personally, I think you've already wasted three years too many.

They are forever gone.

Don't add to them.

GROUNDHOG DAY!

I told her I was divorcing her, she said she did not want that, I said "these" are the things that must happen, one of which was moving back home.


Yes.


I don't think I can answer that question. What I can say is on a scale of 1 to 10, my desire to attempt marital recovery is a 10. You may think that is foolish, but she is my wife, I married her.


I guess that depends.


Many times over.


Not devastated.


I think she would, but I'm not sure if I would go.


You might. Might beat her down.


I want a real attempt at marital recovery.

She actually quit her job. No leave of absence, no she is going to have to fly back for a few days to help out. I made this a condition on returning. If she breaks this, then all the questions are irrelevent.

She is also trying to do some of the MB stuff. Last night, she printed the EN questionaire and wants us to fill them out.

I have thought that way too. You and Mr. W need to get on the same page.

Your two responses are why I asked the question.

I'm pretty clear on my choices. I can do as some are alluding to, which is to say sorry, too much time has passed, no way this can work, etc. I could also sit back and see what she does, see how feel after some time of that. Or I could plunge back into it, risk getting burned again, and see how that goes.

I don't think she is afraid of what people will say. I think she believes people here are marriage at all costs, and any advice given to a F/WS will be some variant of "tough, you deserve to be miserable."

I think it finally dawned on her that her plan was not going to work. This is not to say I think she had some evil master plan, but that somehow she could "manage" her way way through "escaping" to a new life in a way that at the end, everyone was happy.


Yep.

I'm trying really hard not to.

What I am trying to get at is that I believe my FWW only moderately buys into the "feelings follow actions" concept. I suspect that if she does not see relatively quick results from changing her actions, she will give up.

I do not consider them wasted. I accomplished much in those three years.

ok, so you have conditions? Was committing to the marriage one of them? Or is this another, "lets go along and see how Margie FEELS before she makes a committment?" Another cart before the horse deal, in other words.

So, is she busy looking for another traveling job?

The first clause in this sentence makes me laugh. She has not read many of my posts, has she? The second clause I agree with, heartily. How else do they, the tiny few of them that do, learn anything?

rpynne,

I think the only one this thread that might be marriage at all costs is you. Why are you marrriage at all costs?

What has your W said or done that makes you think this situation is really any different?

I mean you discuss divorce and she all of a sudden quits her job and comes home??? Doesn't that picture bother you? It would me.

It means she doesn't need or want you for any particular reason other than divorce would somehow be "inconvenient" to her.

There are things going on that you are not tell us. What are they?

God Bless,

JL

No.


Perhaps. I don't know.

All I know is that I told her I wasn't doing this anymore, that I was done. A week later she tells me she doesn't want that, that she is quiting her job and she wants us to work on things. Outwardly, I said great. Inwardly I thought, "yeah right." So I continue on, doing what I have to do, and then she comes home. Outwardly, I said great. Inwardly I thought, "well it won't be long until the other shoe drops". Its been 3 weeks, no emergency trips back to TX, no meetings, she's been going to IC and been trying to engage on marital stuff, etc. I've been sitting there doing nothing, cause I'm waiting to get burned again. So I'm asking what do I do now?


Nope. Says she wants to work things out before she looks for another job.

I think you were different when she posted here before.

Another traveling job?


But you are doing this again. You are not done. If you were done you wouldn't be here asking "what do I do now?"

rprynne, are you taking any of the following:

1. hoochie weed

2. anti- depressants

3. mind altering narcotics

I'm not. Unfortunately, I am loyal and do not like to go back on my vows.


Like I said, she quit her job.


Yes, it bothers the crud out of me. I think it sucks that my wife came home because I was going to leave her.


Nothing that I can think of. If you tell me what you are thinking I can try to answer.

No.


I understand your point, but do not view it the same way.

I'll be more direct. What would you propose I do? Kick her out? Go ahead and file for divorce?


Nope, unfortunately, I am naturally this way.

rpynne,

Going back to your original post.

""As of the first of the year, my FWW quit her job and moved back home""

So, she has been living with you for the past 2 weeks? Sleeping in the same bed or in the guest room? Are you two like "picking up where you left off"? or like you just took in a border and you are getting to know her?

Like someone asked, What was the deciding factor that made her come home? The "divorce" motive? And how was this going to cause her grief?

Could it be she is looking forward at her own mortality and picking the best avenue to experience it?

""I guess I am torn between rolling up my sleeves and pro-actively trying to see if things can work out, or just sitting back and see what happens.""

Elsewhere in this thread you were asked from 1-10 how much do you want the marriage to work and you indicated 10.

So if it is 10 then I guess its the rolling up the sleeves and doing the pro-active working it out thingy.

I am reminded of something I read here lately.

The broken hearted husband really wanted to hurt his WW as payback so asked the forum what he could do and someone told him...

"treat her like a queen, like you adore and love her so much that it hurts. Tell her how much you love and like and respect her over and over again and back it up with actions etc, etc. AND THEN AFTER A MONTH OF THIS DUMP HER HARD!!""

Well the guy thought this was a good idea, so he started doing the greatest Plan A Dr Harley could ever imagine.

At the end of the month, he was asked if he dumped her and what her reaction was, and he said.......

DUMP HER!!?? SHE HAS TURNED INTO THE MOST LOVING, TENDER, SENSUAL, HAPPY, FUN LOVING WIFE A GUY COULD EVER ASK FOR!! I'LL NEVER DUMP HER.

So, my brother, if you want the marriage to work, I guess you have to work on it rather than "just sitting back and see what happens"

I think if you are going to do it, put all you can into it. If she bails again, then you have done all you can and you move on.

You did say if she bailed again, you would not be devastated, right?

IMHO

kirk

rprynne,

While I like krusht's revenge idea, I think you need to tell us what she has done to make you think it is different this time? I would like to hear what HER plan is for recovering this marriage. I would also like see where you fit into her recovery plan.

As John Madden says
She has basically been gone for almost 4 years. I am sure most of it was spent with an OM or two or... So why is she back? Why does she say she is back, what makes her want now, what she could clearly do without, for 4 years with or without an OM in the picture? I presume you know the answer to these questions and thus have simply not told us.

If you don't know the answer to these questions, what are you doing even thinking about recovery? No one is telling you to be mean to her, or ignore her, but YOU asked should you work on it?

I ask "work on what?" You don't know where the fire is, so it seems to me it is a little premature to roll out the hose. It is clear whatever you offered before was not valued, offering it again is likely to lead to the same result, UNLESS AND UNTIL you know what her plans are and where she might need your help.

She has to change but so do you, but there is no need for you to change if she does not tell you what she needs to fit in her plans.

You mentioned you felt she finally realizes her plans were not going to work. Do you mean that her plan was to dump you for her job and OM? Do you mean her plan was to spend as little time with you as possible? What makes you think any plans she has now are not derivatives of her previsous plan?

I want to hear the answer to these questions. You need to know the answer to these questions. Your question of "should you work on the marriage" is way out of order right now. And will be until you know her plans and where you fit.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Just quiting her job means nothing, as she plans to look for a new one in the future. You don't know what kind of job she will be looking for, further you don't know that all of this is simply to placate you so she can go back into the same kind of work and life.

Picking up where we left off. She sleeps in the same bed.


The divorce wouldn't cause her grief. The divorce motive just let her know she had run out of time. I don't think their was a single factor. First off, most things changed when she finally ended contact with OM. It had really gotten to the point where they just talked on the phone and I don't know who, but one of them ended that. (This was without my knowledge, as she confessed to this about six months ago)

Shortly after that, her sister moved to where she was. She moved in with her sister. Her sister is married and her husband is not a great guy. Also pretty sure that her sister's husband had an A. They would talk a lot. I don't know. I think hours upon hours of hearing about her sister's situation, somewhere a light bulb went off.


To clarify I said a 10 for how much I want to attempt recovery. I don't know how to rank how much I want the M.


Yeah.

What? You want to attempt recovery but you don't know how much you want the M?

rprynne,

""To clarify I said a 10 for how much I want to attempt recovery. I don't know how to rank how much I want the M.""

TO CLARIFY??

Uhhmmmm....what?

kirk

I do not. I also do not really ask. When the subject has come up, her answer is that she wants to do the right thing. I realize this is an inadequate answer for most, but I have no real desire to pursue it further.


Certainly, at one time. But no, this is not what I mean. In short, her plan was a M on her terms.

JL - I understand your point about plans or recovery and what not. But I would say, to answer those questions, it is going to require me to engage in things. That is something I have thus far been unwilling to do, so...

Sorry. Guess I just have a different perspective on things.

I can not accurately rate how much I want a M, that I have not either experienced or can reasonably predict the experience. All I can rate is how much I would like to experience it.

Am I wrong? You can't rate how much you like driving a Ferrari unless you have driven one. But you can say I would love to drive one.

Have you considered changing that?

just kidding!


YES!

In the interests of clarification......

Did you say that your wife WOULD attend a MB weekend but you WOULDN'T?

Did you say that your wife has been reading some MB material and printed out the questionaires?

Did you say you want to attempt recovery but don't know if you want the marriage?

And to top it all off, you can't see that your wife wants to try and recover even if she did only come home to avoid you divorcing her (which for some reason you see as a bad thing)

If you really think that you WANT to attempt recovery MB starting with a MB weekend prbably gives you the best shot at it.

It's your call rprynne - I'd be already divorced by now.....

Recovery is nothing like driving a Ferrari. Maybe the analogy is off but still...

Why would you want to commit yourself to the hard work recovery requires while you are unsure if you want the M? That doesn't make much sense.

Rprynne,

""I can not accurately rate how much I want a M, that I have not either experienced or can reasonably predict the experience. All I can rate is how much I would like to experience it.""

So even though under your sig line you have "married 17 years",
you do not feel like you ever experienced an M(?)

So you are looking for an M that is not what you had for the first say, 13 years?

And if so, like "in a perfect world" the M would be what? Oh yeah, the Ferrari scenario doesn't let you in on it.

So when do you know if you are experiencing Nirvana?

kirk

rprynne,

You said
How is asking her if she has a plan, engaging in things. Do you plan to simply sit there on the fence and offer no opinions, no insights, and certainly no effort including simply asking questions?

Is so, why are you remaining married to her? Why did you let her come "home"? I must admit you have me confused.

What is HER plan? And how do you expect to make any changes including divorce if you don't know the score?

God Bless,

JL

Okay, I'm very confused. You have been separated 3+ years more or less? With a few false recoveries thrown in? Did you do Plan B at all? Was it dark?

I'm asking because if you didn't do Plan B and didn't set conditions to return, I am very suspicious that she is using you. Not necessarily in a cake-eating way (doesn't appear to be a current OM) but for something. And your own confusion about the situation is leaving you ripe for being taken advantage of.

You need to decide what you want. It's not "do I want to be married?" It's "do I want to be married to HER?" You need to answer this. There is nothing you can do until it is answered.

If you don't know where you are going you will end up someplace else.

Rpynne,

Gosh, you sitch and your answers to the questions you have been posed with really seem like someone not in touch with reality at all. OTOH, I have not come here to judge your reasoning or your emotions in this case.

If you’ll bear with me I would like to tell you a true story I witnessed in my lifetime.

It concerns my MIL who was abandoned after her cheating husband left her and simply moved away to the opposite coast. He never gave her CS, alimony or even a few extra bucks, because she absolutely refused to divorce him. You see, she saw him as sick, much like we view addiction and fog around here.

Over the years, I observed my MIL and her conviction about not seeing a lawyer for some sort of justice and support for the two kids she had as ludicrous. She worked three jobs to put food on the table and a roof over the head of my wife and her brother. People viewed her as pig headed and a fool.

Initially so did I, and eventually my w and I built an in law appt on the side of our house to take her in as she become older and not able to keep up. She went on disability income (as a result of the incredibly hard work she would take on to provide for the kids.)

During this time her WH(about ten years into this) came back and they attempted to R. For me it was beyond belief and much more than he deserved. However my MIL somehow managed to preserve the love for him over all those years of absence and was delighted to try once again. Within a year, he began to once again abuse her emotionally and my wife and her brother told him to pack up and leave town. He was no longer welcome in the family he abandoned years ago.

He did so, and eventually died at a very young age in his mid forties.

My MIL insisted on attending the funeral in a far away state, and when she came home, had an emotional breakdown for about two weeks. She couldn’t get off the couch. It was horrible. She was with us at the time.

The point I am trying to make after this long boring tale, is that for some, time does not matter. It’s relative when comparing the strong emotions of the heart, and sometimes has no bearing.

We are what we are, and feel what we feel.

I won’t judge what you are trying to do, but caution you, to do things in the right manner, as in MB weekends and the like. This is not going to just “pick up where we left off” and miraculously be successful. Thus your willingness to NOT become venerable and remain detached. No one wants to put their heart out their like that after nearly five years of pain. It’s unimaginable.
OTOH, miracles do happen, but it seems they need some guidance along the way. I’m sure you’ll be accused that you’ve set the bar too low, something I probably did myself, but, unless you’ve witnessed my MIL’s life, sometimes you don’t know what humility and loyalty really mean. I learned from a pro.

All Blessings,
Jerry

For the most part I hate spouting little bon mots like this, but it’s seems so apropos at the moment:

Hope is not a plan.

In case it hasn't already been spouted.

Yes.


Yes.


Yes.


I see it as a bad thing, simply because I do not like the baggage of feeling like my FWW is with me because she was going to lose me. I would have preferred she was with me because she wanted to be with me.

Why won't you go to a MB weekend?

Okay

I'm not trying to be sneaky or confusing about this. If we can be happily married, then I want the M. If we can not, then I don't. I do not know if we can be happily married. So I want to find that out.

Correct. At least not an intimate M.


Correct again. Our M for the first 13 years was a sham.


I don't know.

No that is not my plan. I mean, that's the whole point of my thread, I don't have a plan, I'm trying to figure out one. In its simplest form, I want to attempt recovery, but I also do not want to be screwed over again. Someone asked if I would be devastated if she left, and I said no. But I would be devasted if I buy into it again and get screwed over.


I let her come home becuase I didn't think she would come home. At that point, she had ended contact, was living with her sister and was trying to pursue some sort of long distance M with me. I was still married to her becuase at that point, I did not see any urgent need to get divorced. Meaning, I was not lonely, and did not desire to be around any women. Our finances had long been separated, I was living in my own place, we have no kids, so only thing being M'd meant at that point was that I couldn't date, so I was fine with that. But that can only last so long. So I told her, I'm lonely, I desire female companionship, I'm not willing to do this long distance M, so I'm filing for divorce. That's when she said she wanted to move back, us to move back into our house, her to quit her job, us to try to work things out. I went along with it because I thought it would be a good thing to try, but also was fully aware that it could be just another set up. So, I went along with it only to the extent, that it didn't cause any obstacles to me filing for divorce. In short, I said fine, because it wasn't going to hurt me, so what the heck.

No. (maybe a brief one, but not one that really counts). SH told me not to bother with plan B. He advised do plan A until I wanted to plan D. I did not follow his advise in that I quit plan A after our third false recovery.


I can't see how, but wouldn't rule it out.

Your WW screwed you over and now wants you to financially support her and you thought what the heck because you're lonely and she made herself available?

Sounds like trouble to me.

Jerry,

Thanks for the story. All I can say is that I'm as in touch with reality as anyone you could meet. I just have a different perspective on many things.

I may do that. Its like I said before, I do not want to invest if I'm going to get burned.

She is terrified of me financially supporting her. She quit a job that makes more than I do, and I make plenty of money. So, I don't think it's a money grab.

As I posted, I told her I was divorcing because I was lonely, I let her come back because it could not hurt. Why are you inferring that I let her come back because I was lonely?

Thanks for the reminder.

No that is not my plan. I mean, that's the whole point of my thread, I don't have a plan, I'm trying to figure out one. In its simplest form, I want to attempt recovery, but I also do not want to be [censored] over again. Someone asked if I would be devastated if she left, and I said no. But I would be devasted if I buy into it again and get [censored] over.

Wow R,

I understand your fear of engaging with this woman again after so long and apparently 3 false recoveries already. But your level of apathy is astounding and certainly isn't a plan. It seems you perhaps don't want people here to give you a plan, but rather, you want people to tell you "what you should do."

Only you can decide that. It seems pretty simple to me however.

You either:

1. Plan A and fully commit yourself to R with the full knowledge that you may in fact get stabbed in the heart again. This would take a lot of courage on your part.

2. You plan D and move on with your life. Not as much courage required but the "safe" choice.

Lolling around forever will not solve anything and will only make you and her miserable.

This is something that only you can decide though.

Okay this does not make sense. You were divorcing her because you were lonely, i.e. wanted to be free to date again, correct? Fair enough. If this is the case, how is her coming back NOT going to hurt your chances for this? Honestly, who's going to date a guy who's living with his XW? Her presence can either (a) resolve your loneliness if you pursue marital recovery or (b) exasperate your loneliness by making you even less available than you were when you were living apart.

I think this is being taken out of context. I was trying to keep my answer short, so as not to get too long winded.

Anyway, the first line of the orginal pargraph where I brought that up was that my FWW was trying to pursue a long distance M between us. A "how about I work here in TX and you work there in KY, and we will fly back and forth and see each other." I never agreed to this. But she started doing it anyway, with a "it will just be a few weeks", all the while claiming she knew it wasn't going to be permanent, and that we were going to "fix" that. So after a few weeks, I said, this doesn't seem to be getting fixed. I got the its just for a few more weeks. (always, once this asssigment is done, once this deal closes, once I get done training my replacement, etc.) So, (for those that don't think I am in touch with reality), I realized that this was just a BS way to get what she was persuing. So I told her, I am not agreeing to a long distance M, and even though she says that is not what is happening, that was BS, that was exactly what was happening. I told her I was lonely, and a long distance M, was not going to help that, especially, given her nature and her past. So, since this (based upon her actions) was the best she was going to be able to do, I was filing for a divorce. She put in her resignation two weeks later and was home two weeks after that.

So, it is not that I wanted to be free to date again. It was the marriage was unacceptable. What made it unacceptable was that I was lonely.

My orginal answer was to a two part question. Why am I still married, and why did I let her come home. I am still married because she did not divorce me, and I did not need to be divorced from her. I let her come home, because as I posted, a) I told her I was not going to do a long distance M and if she did not want me to divorce her, she had to come home and b) I do not see how her coming home could make things (my M or my life) worse.

rprynne,

I don't think I've posted to you before, so excuse me if I barge in here.

I think you're saying that you consider the MB weekend a risky investment. As if going to the MB weekend is in and of itself a full commitment in the marriage. But I'm not sure that's the case. Can't you use the MB weekend as a really effective means to better assess your chances at marital success so you can finally decide whether or not to commit to your marriage?

(Someone please tell me if this would be an inappropriate use of the MB weekend.)

I don't think you are far off on your conclusions, but its not that I want people to tell me what I should do. I know what I want to do. I want to attempt recovery. I want to do that for a while and see if we can have a good marriage.

But I guess what I am asking (and I can tell by the responses that it is not possible) is how do I do that in a risk free way.

Which I know is a silly question, but I was hoping someone might have some insight that might motivate me. Because right now, I don't think I have the courage to expose myself to this again.

What you are asking is impossible, because your wife is a KNOWN RISK.

To have a risk free recovery you would have to divorce this wife and meet another better woman who is not of bad character and is caring and loving toward you enough NOT to cheat on you.

As long as you are keeping THIS PARTICULAR WIFE around, you will have nothing but risk and heartache. It is simply WHO SHE IS. Her NATURE. And you cannot go against nature.

Think for a few minutes on this series of questions and answers I extracted from your thread here. I re-ordered some of them and I removed extraneous comments:

“Would you be devastated if she left yet again? For whatever reason?”

Rp: Not devastated.


“You did say if she bailed again, you would not be devastated, right?”

Rp: Yeah.


“Why would you want to commit yourself to the hard work recovery requires while you are unsure if you want the M? “

Rp: I do not know if we can be happily married. So I want to find that out.


“So, you are looking for an M that is not what you had for the first say, 13 years?”

Rp: Correct again. Our M for the first 13 years was a sham.


“And if so, like "in a perfect world" the M would be what?”

Rp: I don't know.


“Why won't you go to a MB weekend?”

Rp: It’s like I said before, I do not want to invest if I'm going to get burned.


“ Why are you remaining married to her? Why did you let her come home?”

Rp: I let her come home because I didn't think she would come home...


“You can't see whether your wife wants to recover, even if she did only come home to avoid you divorcing her.”

Rp: I do not like the baggage of feeling like my FWW is with me because she was going to lose me. I would have preferred she was with me because she wanted to be with me.

Rp: I told her I was divorcing because I was lonely, I let her come back because it could not hurt.

Rp: Someone asked if I would be devastated if she left, and I said no. But I would be devastated if I buy into it again and get [censored] over.


Does this conversation built using your own words seem to converge towards an answer? An answer you already know?


IMO:

I think it is too late for you already, man. You are going to be devastated.

I think you should live close but apart and simply date for a year. You will discover some things about her you have never known. And you won’t like them. However, a disclaimer, living apart after an A is not in MB scripture unless there is a Plan B letter in effect and its terms haven’t yet been met.

I feel great empathy for your sitch right now. I remember when my wife wanted to come back. I was also very conflicted. But I felt I needed to live up to the conditions I stipulated in the Plan B letter when she met them. You know, if you do this I will do that…

So, if you have one, look at your Plan B letter. If you don't have one, draft the conditions part for one now and give it to her. See what she does.

It's okay. I appreciate the advice.


Not completely. Going to the MB weekend would make me hopeful. I do not want to be hopeful.

rprynne...

Do you even LIKE her at this point? What is your time together like? From the outside, I gotta say there doesn't look like much to bother saving...

You are one of the nicest guys around here...You deserve so much more than this...

I'm not sure what you are expecting to be honest...If you don't want to go to an MB weekend because that will make you "hopeful" then for goodness sakes what other plan do you have to fix this? "Limbo Hell" doesn't seem like a great address...I think I'd rather live on "Elm Street" than there...

Mrs. W

Yes, you are too nice to take on that huge RISK,, YOUR WIFE> The two difficult cats should be enough for you!!! LOL...

Aph - thanks.


I don't know. Maybe. What do you think?


Say more.


Thanks. Its similar to a plan B letter, but not the same.

Its not that I feel obligated to her to live up to some commitment.

Its more that I've been here four years, and people have said, you need her to be working the program, you need her to be home so you can get your 15 hours a week, you need her to be transaparent, you need her to end contact, etc. Now I feel like, okay, finally, got that done. Then I'm realizing, I don't have much more in the tank.

You sound just like Margie now. You aren't going to get anywhere unless you DO invest. Thats ridiculous to not be willing to ante up $2000 just to see if it might help things along. And then if it doesn't work you can divorce knowing you tried everything.

I just don't understand you, rprynne.

Yes I like her. We get along great. I also love her. Clearly not in the way I used to, and right now not in a way that I think is required for a good marriage, but still.


Ouch. I hate being nice


Mrs. W. I know it can be frustrating, but this is how I sort things out. I ask questions, listen to what other people say, answer there questions, etc. It gets me there eventually. I won't be in "Limbo Hell"

We've already covered so much.

Its not the money Mel. Gee Whiz.

Can't you tell I'm trying to work through some things here?

Look, I was hopeful when I found this place. Shared the concepts with my WW, then I was disappointed. I was hopeful when we started counciling with SH. Then I was disappointed. I was hopeful when we did this or that, or whatever, then I was dissappointed.

If I go to the MB thing, I'm going to be hopeful that it will help, it will make a difference. Just not sure that I want to sign up for what (inevitably) feels like might result in more disappointment.

That is not honest, rprynne. You have been in limbo hell for years.

You are asking the same questions you asked years ago, yet nothing changes. This is how you avoid making decisions. That is called conflict avoidance. Conflict avoiders claiming to be "thinking" things over - endlessly - so they never have to make a decision. That is exactly what you do.

Look, I was hopeful when I found this place. Shared the concepts with my WW, then I was disappointed. I was hopeful when we started counciling with SH. Then I was disappointed. I was hopeful when we did this or that, or whatever, then I was dissappointed.

Yes, maybe because your wife is a natural born cheater. Nothing will work for the long term. How can you change her.?

Lets look at the other extreme.

Lets assume she will always dissapointe meaning she will always want to cheat and will cheat on you in the future. Lets make that ASSUMPTION.

Then, what do you do?

Well, if you love her but know she is a cheater and always will be, adjust your thinking to accomodate that.

Set down some cheating rules:

1. You two will have an open marriage'
2. If she wants to cheat, or you want to, you must tell the other one BEFORE doing the cheating.
3. You both must always use protection with other folks and get exams afterwards.
4. You both must be sterile so no unwanted kids result from the cheating.
5. The cheating must be done AWAY from your home and marriage bed.

I think you are trying too hard to change HER THAT CANNOT BE CHANGED.

If you love her you have to accept her cheating!

Ah, the slow and methodical type...gotcha...So long as you know that you will eventually progress...Seems more like "slow & painful" to me, but I am more of a "rip the bandaid off lightening quick" sorta gal...


HA! Your secret is safe with me...I'll tell all the others what a "mean bastage" you are, how's that?


I'm not frustrated with you, rprynne...It just looks very painful to ME...You are a better gauge of what you can and cannot take...I do agree wholeheartedly with Mel though, you DO have to INVEST in order to know...

What I would do: Go to MT and say: "In order for me to stay in this marriage, it will take us going to an MB weekend and working the program." PERIOD. If she balks, you walk. Done deal.

I do have an advantage there that you don't have, of course...I happen to KNOW that if you work the program, the program works...

If you don't INVEST rprynne how will you know what to do? That part confuses me...Do you expect that some all encompassing love feeling is just gonna come along and bite you in the butt?

Mrs. W

rprynne, I've never posted to you before. I'm hanging on your thread now though. You remind me a lot of me. Wonder if anybody else feels that way? :RollieEyes:

Our situations aren't completely similar but then again, yes they are.

rprynne, why do you suppose we've ordered this for ourselves? Why do we keep on signing up for it? What's the pay-off? There really isn't one! Do we think we don't deserve better? (NO - I know I deserve better. I forgot it for a minute though) Are we afraid? (Yes for me) Stubborn? Naive? Door-mat-ish?

GroundHogDay. You & me both, we're pretty much right where we started, years ago, it seems.

Just sayin'

Here is another idea. Sometimes it helps to try and look five years into your future. Our lives are precious and short. YOUR life is precious!!!

If you keep this cheaterwife around, what will the results be five years from now:

1. She will cheat a few more times
2. You will fail to leave her therefore will not meet anyone else
3. You may still have the difficult cats
4. You will be dealing with the pain of her past, present, and future cheating episodes
5. You will be spending $$ on counseling, time on getting advice, all to avoid her cheating again.
6. Your time, money, and effort to try and end her cheating will all be wasted.
7. You will be five years older and have nothing real but the cats to fall back on.

I'll respectfully disagree. You do not know what decisions I have made.

Conflict avoider? Did I not expose? Do I not confront my WW? Was there ever a time my WW was in contact that I did not immediately bring it up? Did I not go to MC with SH? With others? Did I not change all my credit cards, cancel all my joint accounts, move out of my house? Did I not get the divorce papers? Did my WW not send a NC letter?

You can be peeved that I did not divorce her, but don't lump me in with the do nothings. And don't try to call me a conflict avoider.

Perhaps.

I know that nothing has changed in 5 years. NOTHING. You are still in the same place as when you arrived.

It might be believable if you had been in limbo for 6 months, but not 5 years. Fiddling around the edges might look like busy work to you, but it doesn't change the fact that you have made NO DECISIONS and nothing has changed in 5 years. That is CLASSIC conflict avoidance, rprynnee. That is someone who lives a life of LIMBO.

That kind of thinking is a set up to avoid ever making changes. Since it is impossible to change someone against their will, that goal ensures that no action is ever taken. A conflict avoiders dream..

No.

I was debating whether to jump all in or sit back and see if she is sincere. If I knew she was sincere, I would not have any problem jumping all in. This is why I resisted for quite some time about bringing up divorce. Now that that is out there, it makes it difficult to determine if she is sincere.

After 5 years where do you start?

With someone else!!!

Can you change a difficult cat? ( I really love that term you use!)

Difficult Cats and Cheating Wives

How do you change a difficult cat
Give it treats and a catnip mat

Once you love a cat that's bad
You own them and they make you mad

Life is full of cats that scratch
Wives that cheat on you, a good catch

See what is and what is NOT.
Look very carefully at WHAT YOU GOT.

Cats won't change for you..no way
Wives won't change, for even one day...

Cats are selfish and do what they want
Wives who cheat are made to PUNT

You can live with a difficult cat
A cheating wife will drain you flat

Furniture be ruined by a difficult cat
Your heart be broken by being a doormat

Cats are easy to contain
Cheater wives you must distain

Feed a cat they will give you something
Feed a cheater wife she will take everything

Keep these cats who will destroy
Dump a wife who wants a boy toy

Do you want a cat in five years time?
Do you want a wife who crosses that line?

Can you see how great you are?
Find a woman who is a star

Will you keep them in a box?
Will you keep them with a fox?

I do not like them Stellacat.
I do not like them, and that is that!

Typical.

The long wait is over.

The actuality is never quite as good as the anticipation.


You are tired.

And it’s scary.


So,

Date her.

Maybe try dialogues. Write all this down and talk to her about it (in bite sized chunks) using I feel statements.

Give her this thread to read?

You need to pulse the circuit to see what it does. It’s called System Identification. You stimulated her circuits with the divorce statement and got an identifiable reaction. Now hit it with an impulse function – talk about what you need, what you need right now and forever. And can she provide it, finally?

Ask her.

Write it down.


You have nothing to loose except the anticipation.

rpynne,


How will you ever know if you are safe to begin to invest in your marriage again? All human interactions involve a certain amount of risk. You seem to be a rational man. Try to look objectively at your situation. Take a pencil and divide a sheet of paper lengthwise. Make a list of the highs and lows of your marriage. See which side is longer.

Show your list to your best friend, your brother/sister, your mother/father. Observe their reaction. Ask what they would do in such a situation. If you would be too embarrassed to show someone else such a list, then that is something that you may want to weigh heavily.

I understand that the person least invested in the marriage actually holds most of the power. But if you stay uninvested that may be a Pyrrhic victory. You may not be hurt is she decides to cheat again, but the chances of you finding a loving marriage holding it at arm's length is probably pretty small.

rprynne,

I have always enjoyed your posts because they made me think about my own M and relationships in general. You sound like such a nice person. I've seen you tell other BS's to set the bar high when taking a WS back but I don't see you doing it. Granted there may be all sorts of details I don't know, but from what you have said, you were lonely and WW came back once the D card was thrown out. Where is the bar set? Has WW agreed to your term, whatever they are? Did you have any terms? Is she remorseful, sorry, etc.?

Really? Now that does sound like something Margie would say.

I use the term "level jumping". Look at anything from a high enough level and nothing ever changes. Its the equivalent of painting your walls a new color and then saying nothing in the room has changed because the walls are still painted.

But if your point is my M is still crap. Got it.

5 years ago, my WW had moved all of her stuff out and was living in OM's condo in TX. Now she's not. So while my M may still be crap, some things have changed.

Agree.

This worries me and I'll tell you why...Anytime that I see a BH here essentially asking the question, "Is my WW now a FWW?", I always know that she is NOT...Because there would be NO NEED to question it if she were...You would know...Someone that is really onboard would be telling you AND backing it up with ACTIONS...I know you have the "action" of her moving home, but what else? Is there genuine sorrow and remorse? Is she saying things like, "OMG, I can't believe what I have put you through?" Does she get it at all, rprynne? Is it cold and clinical?

Just trying to get a clear picture...

Mrs. W

*[just stopping the affair w/ OM does NOT make someone a FWW]*

I agree with what you are saying. I won't really ever know unless I test it out.


All evidence to the contrary, right?

The bar is low. But it was set low out of indifference, if that makes any sense. (sense as in KWIM, not was it right to do).

I am trying to follow some of my own advice.


Yes. She is remorseful.

I am saying your decision making process is CRAP, it is non existant, which is why you live in a state of limbo at the mercy and whim of a utterly non committed wayward.

Can I make a suggestion? Do something, dammit.

Both of you jump in with both feet and try to fix your marriage with everything you have by going to a MB weekend. If nothing is better in 3 months, then get a divorce.

But please, do something, dammit.

I think I deserve better. For me, I just think there is a right way to do things and you do your best to do that. Sometimes it sucks along the way.

What is KWIM?

rprynne,

Let me start this comment with a quote.
I would say based on your comments you are "indifferent". You don't care if she stays or she goes. You are not inlove with this woman.

Your real question is "Should I try and rebuild the love and thus the marriage?"

Normally, most of us would say definitely.

But, this is not a normal situation. It is a situation where your W had no problem being separated from you for almost 4 years. She had no problem having affairs or was it one long affair? She really did not want to come back to you other than she felt she would lose "something" no one knows what that is if you two divorced.

Now I don't know much, but I do know this. IF she does not change her thinking, if she does not change her perspective, you are NOT taking any risk by taking her back. Risk implies that there are several possible outcomes, one of which you might like. IN this case you can be CERTAIN that she will leave or have another affair, or both. None of those outcomes warrents any effort on your part. Right? None of those outcomes is what you want.

So unless she comes to you and explains what her plans are, what has changed in both her perspectives and goals for life, you are very very foolish not to divorce her and move on. Her quiting her job is not an indication of change. She can get another one and head off again.

I asked earlier if you had asked her about her plans, and you responded with something along the lines that you felt you would be making an effort for the marriage to do so. I contend you asking is simply confirming what you really ought to be doing. Planning on leaving UNLESS she has changed. Even if she has, I would recommend that you leave, but I am not running your life.

rprynne, you don't have to engage in marriage building, but you MUST engage in information gathering, so that you can make the best decision for you. You are running around blind right now, and I believe that is the source of your ambivalence right now. Gather data, and I think things will become very clear to you.

God Bless,

JL

Know What I Mean?

Mrs. W

Thanks Mrs W.


r,

Agree with jl 100%. Give it some thought and take care.

Yes, there is genuine sorrow and remorse. But no, she is not saying things like that. It is not her way.

I think she gets it. It is not cold and clinical, it is fearful.

Without getting too long winded, my FWW thinks the answer to recovery is just keep me happy. So while she may be sorry, she isn't going to bring that up because that will "ruin my mood."

I'll try to explain more of what I mean by sincere. When my WW and I filled out the EN questionaire, the first time, she lied on it. She didn't list what her most important needs were, she listed what she thought I would be okay with as her most important EN's. So when I say sincere, I don't want to bother filling them out again if she is just going to try and guess what I what to see and put that in there.

She ranked conversation very low. Yet, spent a whole year without seeing OM, but just talking on the phone. So, I can only conclude she doesn't like conversation with me. But rather than tell me that, (because it would hurt my feelings), a better answer was to keep talking to OM.

So by sincere, I mean if she isn't going to change that logic, its a waste of time.

JL - I don't know if you know or think it matters, but it was one A. She had moved in with OM. Moved out after d-day, but maintained contact by phone. The first NC was just a total BS. The last attempts were 2-6 month periods were she was in NC, but then OM would dig up some excuse to call her and within a few days, they were back to talking on the phone 4-5 times a day.

While we did not live together, we saw each other about every two weeks and talked on the phone daily. And she never called it a separation.


Yes. Overall. But I would say I get there because their are some things about her I care very much for and others that I despise.


Okay.

Okay. Not sure it's going to "count" though.

rprynne,

What would you miss if you divorced your wife? Do you think that you could find these things with another woman? (I ask myself these questions a lot).

Nobody is perfect. But, this woman has shown a level of disrespect for you as a man that is appalling. Living with the OM? What must she think of you as a man to do that? And what must you think of yourself to allow her to come home after doing it?

I'm not trying to be a pr!ck, really. It just makes me wonder what she really thinks of marriage. You are so lucky that you don't have kids.

Then why do it? Why waste your time anymore doing nothing that never counts?

Its not that I would miss anything. Its that I would have failed to live up to my marriage vows. Because I hold that view, many would assume that I am a marriage at all costs person. I am not. I understand that their are cicumstances where one would have the right to break that vow. I further understand their are cicumstances where one would have to break that vow. So, I am the middle. Clearly, I have the right, but I do not know that I have to.


Most likely. Things would be much easier for me if I did that.


I imagine you might disagree, but this is looking at the person with no regard for the circumstance. (A theme, that in one way or another gets discussed here often). My wife was not this way until we lost our daughter.

My point was that I imagine even if I did go to the MB weekend, when I post of my situation again, you would tell me I have done nothing.

Well, imagination is not truth, though. And you are right, it might not count. What will your next step be if that is the case?

rprynne,

I had no idea you lost a daughter. I apologize for my words about not having kids. Gosh I . . . am and a$$. I think I may go back into lurk mode.


Listen, I guess all I am trying to say is you either have to take or chance that your wife can be what you need in this marriage or you need to bail. Please don't waste the life you have left doing nothing.

She may crush you or she may be the friend/lover/wife that you need and want. She broke your heart already rp, what is there left to lose? Give it a try for six months. Keep detached a bit and just enjoy the moment if you can. Your wife is probably in there somewhere. I hope she shines through and soon. She is a very lucky woman to have you and I hope that someday she really sees that.

RP,

Just a thought.

Could it perhaps be that you are afraid of being alone?

You stuck it out with a half-way relationship with your w or ww or whatever without ever moving on to a new relationship. You didn't really have to, bc she was always sort of there, half in half out.

When you finally felt you might have the courage or sufficient motivation to D, you told your wife, and she ran home.

Divorcing is a big step towards a new and uncharted life. It would require learning to trust a new woman and dating and possibly being rejected or rejecting someone.

Are your feelings of indifference really rooted in fear of moving on and having to face the prospect of facing the unknown, after a horrible experience with your last relationship?

The relationship with your wife, as bad and uncertain as it is...is it potentially more comfortable than that prospect?

I would get a divorce.

Don't sweat it. I was not saying that to be rough. I was saying it more from the stand point that it is difficult for me to have the same "rage" or "anger" towards my FWW about how she treated me, when it is mixed in with the compassion I feel about the circumstance.

Keep posting


I agree.

That is possible. But I really don't think so.

I once talked with SH about this. If you are curious, I can post what he said.

I am curious because I was, and still am. I have found that I need not be nervous about it though. A single guy in his early forties with a good job that loves his kids is apparently a hot commodity and while i am certainly no brad pitt, i seem to be a target these days for a lot of very nice attractive women, or their friends or parents seem to think that i am looking for someone and are eager to set me up. I am definitely not ready.

I asked if you felt the same way as I am thinking, frankly it seems like a real hurdle to ever get close to someone else again without the fear or being hurt again or just seems like a lot of investment in time and effort.

Sorry, this whole question feels like a thread jack...

RP,

I have been away from the computer for a while and just got caught up on the thread.

AND, I think I know (empathize) where you are coming from.

YOU have been the one on the high road,

YOU are the one who suffered the slings and arrows...and held your head high.

YOU are the one who did the stations of the MB cross, with limited, if any, results.

SO you tell her this long distance dealio is not working, so let's call it quits and OMG, low and behold, she quits her job and moves back home!!

Oh My!!

NOW IT IS HER TURN FOR THE HEAVY LIFTING!!

It is up to her to convince you to stay in the M. She should be making it up to you hand over fist. She must do the penance by committing to the M.

She should be doing the FWW version of the PLAN A showing you how she can AND HOPEFULLY WILL BE from now on. She should be trying very hard to WIN YOU BACK!!

You said that she was doing this by MAKING YOU HAPPY. Now that sound like a good thing...correct?

How happy do you have to be before you call it a good M and not the sham of old.

What made it a sham? I got the hint there was a lack of intimacy. For thirteen years?

I did forget about your daughter's passing, sorry. What year in the M did this happen?

And do you have a time frame? How long will you give her to prove it?

Anyway, what some are calling apathy on your part, I believe is more of "come on honey, show me what you got". Show me how bad you want to stay with me, and make me believe it.

And, I must tell you my friend, I think it is totally justified.

IMHO

kirk

rprynne,

As you know, we've posted back and forth to each other since I came here 18 months ago, but I don't think I've posted to you on this thread ... mainly because I have never really understood what makes you tick and didn't want to be the downer telling you to move on.

I've always liked you and felt somewhat connected, but we always seemed to be on slightly different pages.

However, krusht's post above hit a nerve with me and I think I have a better understanding of where you are, and what you are seeking.

If krusht's post resonates with you like I think it will, then I'd like to offer up my encouragement. I'll admit to never being much a fan of your (F)WW ... I just saw her as treating you with extreme indifference, but then she does something unexpected like quitting her job when you had reached the end of your rope.

Maybe she really was one of those WW's who had to really be faced with a future without you, before she woke up to what a great guy she was pushing away. I TRULY HOPE THAT IS THE CASE.

Anyway, I think you are very smart to remain guarded, but I now see some hope for her to step up, "IF" you will continue to set the recovery bar very high for her. Obviously, she has a high skill set to have advanced so far in her profession, let's see if she has what it takes to rise to a more PERSONAL challenge.

Don't short-change yourself, and don't accept anything less than what you deserve for your faith and belief in a future with her. She SHOULD be the one doing the HEAVY LIFTING at this point, and you should be encouraging her to put her entire soul into that effort.

Regardless, you're fortunes took a surprising upward turn when you defended your boundaries ... it doesn't seem prudent to ease up now that things have turned somewhat in your favor.

You never said if you were an offensive or defensive lineman ... whichever it was ... now is the time to BOTH defend YOUR goal, while you open a huge hole for HER to carry the ball forward.

Yeah, I know, its a bad mixed metaphor, but I think you'll understand the meaning.

Hang tough, my friend.

BTW, GREAT POST, krusht!!!

MyRev,

Thanks for the kind words :RollieEyes: (can't leave these alone!)

RP, MyRev wrote:

""Regardless, you're fortunes took a surprising upward turn when you defended your boundaries ... it doesn't seem prudent to ease up now that things have turned somewhat in your favor.""

Which is a very good point and advice.

I wonder if you consider her moving back as your fortunes taking an upward turn? It must not be dull around the old homestead now.

Remember, you are the one who told her you were lonely. Watch out what you wish for!! :crosseyedcrazy:

kirk

RP my affair started as an exit affair after the loss of our son. I felt my DH abandoned me and our kids ... he was deployed and as it happened involved in some heavy fighting .. but I didn't care HE ABANDONED us was all I could see. So I blamed him for everything and wanted to hurt him. yes stupid but that's what I did.

to cut a long story short he took a risk on me .... I didn't have any idea how to repair what I wrecked ... I learned I couldn't ... so we have a NEW marriage. I did slowly take on the booking of MC and IC and whatever I could ... my H was not that prepared to work too hard to recover our M as I had done such a SUPER job of hurting him. Like you he went along reluctantly and usually watched the seagulls on the river during the MC sessions. It took some time for him to say much.

The thing is there is NO WAY to not put yourself at risk in any recovery plan or action. I wish for any BS there was.. but there isn't.

IF your F?WW is really wanting to try recovery why not have her do the running around ... I know its not much but at least if she booked the MB weekend .. the SH sessions etc ...you could see some commitment from her.
Another thing is I bet SH would pick up pretty quickly if she was playing games or not committed.

Why not just ask your w to do some of this work for you right now. A refusal would certainly let you know that no matter how much she may say she is remorseful that your M is not that important after all to her.

However if you don't want to do MB weekend or sessions then maybe plan D is YOUR only real option.

whatever you decide I pray you will find peace and happiness.

aw

Wise words AW!!

RP!!

Come on DUDE, you started this dialogue.........what's up???

Sorry, just got back from a trip. I will respond today.

Not at all. You had asked if I stay because perhaps deep down I am afraid of being alone. I had asked SH about this and his answer (which I probably only partially agree with) is a bit reversed.

For the most part, I was already alone. Said another way, for most people, a separation would be a dramatic shift or change in their life. For me, it was not that big a change, (at least compared to say the last 8 or so years of my M) because my FWW were seldom together anyway.

Fear is probably too strong a word, but what I sense for myself at least, is first, I realize I do not want to "die" alone, so if that means fear of being alone, then so be it. I've always viewed it as valuing having a partner. Second, I really don't want to "court" anyone again. Meaning, I don't want to have to go through all those little things you have to do in the process of finding a partner.

Not sure if this makes any sense, but that would be a closer description of my "fears".

Like what "little things" rprynne?

You do know that "courting" your spouse is how you remain in love, right?

Mrs. W

Yes. What you have described is very much my state of mind.


Yes.


I really don't know yet.


To me, what made it a sham was that what we had in the M was very much what she asked for. But she claims she was only asking for things that she thought I was willing to provide and thus she was being forced to sacrifice. My FWW presented to me that she wanted a M that was more like a business partnership, than an intimate M. She did not care about conversation, or affection, or gifts, etc. That she was just not into "romantic" stuff. Then she runs off and "falls in love." When I asked why, all those things she did not want became her "sacrifices"

Yes, there was a lack of intimacy. If you mean SF, no, that was not the problem. Like most men here, I would like more SF, but I don't think the amount of SF was as low as some of the "worst" cases we've seen around here.

But the intimacy has not been there for any of our M. And it was her choice.

Some might read that and say, poor guy. But that's not correct. I was fine with how our marriage was. I was not out there yearning for something more in my M and just suffering through. But apparently she was.

So now that she is back, I want to see that she realizes that.


It was six years ago.


I really don't right now.


Yes. But it is also more than that. Can't always describe it, but its around just being more self-aware and proactive.

Thanks. I have always liked you too.


I agree with the above and the rest of your post. I am not letting up, but must confess it is not my "comfort zone".


Defense!!!


Thanks. Hope things are going well for you.

For the most part, I do.

Awwwww, you guys, this is a very sweet "Bromance"!

Sorry, I just sooooooooooooo couldn't resist that!


"DEFENSE! - Hold 'em! DEFENSE! - Push 'em! DEFENSE! - Hold 'em real tight!"

Whoa, I just had a cheerleader flashback - with motions and everything!

Mrs. W

I know. I don't like it, but I know.


I did. She agreed to do the work. That was before I left town, so we'll have to see.


Thanks.

I just mean I have no desire to go through all those things that are involved. Meet the parents, reveal embarrassing details about yourself, etc.

Its BTDT thing.


I know.

Just giving the man his "props"


Take it easy. I would hate for Mr. W to come home and find you have back flipped yourself into a broken neck.

Hey rprynne! Its been awhile since my last visit, been awhile since your last post to this thread too it seems.

Its a bit scary, but I've always felt like I understood you in some way and your thoughts have helped me in the past and I appreciate that.

So I'm going to offer my thoughts to you about your sitch.

I think your WW quitting her job and coming back after an ultimatum of divorce is by and large not much different than the way most infidelity ends and recovery begins. You enforced a boundary, your WW made a choice. If anything, I think that should show you that you DO have power to affect change in the realationship. No, her coming back to keep you from leaving isn't how you wanted her to return. But realize that you are also contradicting your own claims of ambivalence. You wanted her to return a certain way, that isn't ambivalent. She didn't return that way, she returned another way. Oh well. Of all the the injuries you've suffered along the way, this one seems pretty minor. It might sting the most because its the freshest wound, but surely a pragmatist like yourself recognizes that this wound will also heal.

One thing I find interesting about your M (or lack of one) is that for whatever reason, you hung in there, and for whatever reason, your WW has come back. It wasn't because of kids, it wasn't because of money, it wasn't because of an exceptional working of MB plans, etc. If anything, you and your WW have demonstrated to each other beyond any doubt that you do not NEED each other. What you're trying to decide is if you WANT each other, which seems like a pretty reasonable question to me.

I don't think you're going to get the answers to your questions without being willing to put forth some effort and exposing yourself to some risk. I would think that at this point your should WELCOME that, because doing so should result in some closure for you, one way or the other.

I think you need to find some way to determine what your WW wants in a marriage, and you need to be very honest with yourself about what YOU want in a marriage. This is complicated by the fact that you don't trust that your WW will tell you the truth and that she tends to try to tell you what she thinks you want to hear. This I think is conflict avoidance by both of you.

I guess what I would suggest is that you attempt is just a back to basics, clear the air conversation based NOT on the past, but on the potential of a future. Just lay it all out there. I envision something like a "Look WW, I'm here, you're here, after all that has happened, I think we owe it to each other and to ourselves to find out if this can truly work, if this is really worth both of us putting in the effort to try to fix this."

It seems overly simplistic, but really I think it is that simple. In order to start pondering any type of recovery, I think you both have to know that you WANT to recover, and I think you both have to accept that it is going to require you both to step out of ambivalence and WORK at it.

In some respects I think both of you have done a little of this. You finally made the decision that things were either going to change or you were done. Your W made the decision to quit her job and move home. So that's a step. What the next step? I think first is an agreement to honesty in undertaking the next steps. An honest Emotional Needs questionairre seems like a reasonable first step. I think an honest discussion of boundaries going forward is another.

I think you have to find a way to reach the pragmatist within your WW and get her to buy into the fact that at this point anything but total honesty is not in her best interest either.

I think you just have to jump in a bit more rprynne. There is NO reason now for you to fear rocking the boat. LEAD this in the direction you need it to go. You pushed, and she responded. Keep pushing.

Tyk

Hi Tyk. Hope things are going well. You need to give us an update.


Ditto.


Yep, I understand and agree. I'll get through it. I can't really express it, but I guess I just prefer to be wanted as opposed to being feared lost.


It does.


Pretty much over the last month, I have worked through this. I am engaging on things and have put aside my concerns over being exposed to more damage.


We did fill out the ENQ.


I agree with this. I think she is at a place where she understands this.


I agree and then I disagree. As sort of said above, I needed to engage more and I have. But I just don't think I should lead this.

Over the last few weeks, I have a better read on things. She has been home long enough that this is not just another "trick", so that has helped. We have talked several times about things. The best way I can put it is that she understands what needs to happen. But there seems to be a couple of problems, that all sort of roll up into what appears to be sort of a "how 'bout we just go back to the way things were" approach. She knows that won't work, but then keeps looking to me to figure out some way around it. But the answer always comes back to she is just going to have to actually do what needs to be done.

As an example, she needs to come clean about the past. But then she will come to me and ask me what I want to know or ask that I come up with a list of questions. Well, that isn't going to work. It just becomes an interrogation with a hostile witness. IMHO, she needs to take the lead on this.

So, I'll just keep plugging along. I agree with much of what you said and really appreciate the advice.

I really struggled getting what I needed out of WW in that regard too. She lied to me months after D-Day and I was honestly closer to plan D after that than I was as a result of the A. Not that I viewed the lie as a more serious offense, but another lie on top of everything else, that far into recovery was not what I was looking for. Anyhow. ..

This kind of reminds me of the advice you were giving me when I was wanting my WW to sincerely apologize without me telling her to or coaching her. You may want to go back and read your advice to me, because I think it was sound. You probably can't wait for her to figure out a way to satisfy you in this regard. She needs to commit to answering whatever you want to know truthfully, and I think you need to agree to try to minimize the feeling of it being an interrogation.

This might be an idea for you: do it in writing instead of verbally? You write down what you want to know, and she responds. This might have the effect of slowing things down, letting her answer the question fully without you jumping on something and getting off target? It also will allow you to perhaps winnow your questions down to what you really want and need to know?

Glad to hear some progress is being made rprynne. I know that in my case it took a few months and a couple different tries and finally another ultimatum from me before my WW truly got on board and started participating in our recovery.

Its a bit "unsporting" to throw someone's own advice back at them, don't you think?

Seriously though, you're right. I started to do this, but surprisingly, I am at a loss as to what I want to know.

I know I would like to know how things ended, but aside from that, their aren't too many details I do not know.

I'll need to think on it some more, but I think it is not so much about details, but how they are presented. It needs to be a narrative, not a listing of facts. I'm not sure if that makes much sense to anyone.

I would just like to say to my FWW, "Just tell me the story." But I really feel if I do that, I'm going to at best get a "I was unhappy, I met this OM, I went out, etc." or at worst I'm going to get "What would you like to know?"

I wish there was a simple concise way to state what I want to know.

I know exactly what you mean. I still am not satisfied that I know everything, but I think I probably know everything I need to know. Knowing and understanding are two different things though, and I still don't understand everything. However, I don't feel the same drive to try to understand it as I once did. I used to be consumed with it, now, it is an exceptionally bad time when I let myself get drug back into the wallow. It still happens some, but not as often, not as intense.

In the meantime, while you try to figure out what it is you want to know, just to fill the time you should be striving to build a marriage with your W. You said that your W has trouble buying into the idea that feelings follow actions. Perhaps you have trouble with that as well?

I just don't think there's much to be gained from sitting around waiting to "feel like" reconnecting and rebuilding. Start doing the things that lead to place you think you'd like to be, and in the process, you'll discover where you want to be. ACT, and then see how you feel. ACT and see how your W feels. If its not working and not adding up, well, that will be part of your answer, right?

Just to provide an update.

Over the last month, things have being going pretty good. I guess I'm finally starting to get comfortable with the fact that my FWW is actually home. I think the constant thought that somehow this was another "trick" was weighing on my mind more than I had realized.

Anyway, her being home has given me the motivation to take a more active role in things, so I am trying to re-learn some of the MB stuff and put it into practice. The only real bump has been that our MC all of sudden retired, so we are a bit on our own, as I don't think either of us really want to start up with new MC.

My FWW has been slowly starting to take the lead on some things. Recently, she actually brought up some R talk, which may not seem like much, but.... She has been willing to try whatever I've suggested might help me and has followed through with actions. She has not been the least bit resentful about it. She has been making changes that I've noticed. She says she has been getting advice on another web site forum, but I don't know which one.

I'm still struggling with some things. Mostly, I struggle with being O&H. I tell her I'm fine, when it is not always true. But I know that's a mistake, so I'm working on it.

She is being O&H for the most part. The only thing I worry about is that she never has any complaints. Never anything I could do for her or improve on.

One thing I was hoping some may have some advice on. My FWW sort of made a separate life out of her A. New job, new friends, etc. Now that she's back, I can tell she's feeling like she has no life, since she had to give all that up. She mentioned that to me and I didn't really know what to say. I basically said it was hard for me to comment because the last time she made new friends, etc., it didn't work out so good for me. Any advice on what I should have said or should do?