The beginnings of this saga are on the Recovery Thread.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...oard=30&fpart=all&gonew=1#UNREAD


My WW and I have been doing well since New Year’s Day. On that day, she took me by the hands and called it a new year, a new day, and a time for us to work on our marriage. Since then, her behavior has been exemplary, with both of us putting in extra time and effort to work on each other’s EN’s and reconnecting with each other. We had plenty of discussions of the A in the seven weeks since D-day, but there were plenty of things still left to talk about. We have wildly divergent work schedules, but a mutual weekend at the end of this month, so we agreed to table things until then.

Yesterday I had a little time, so I took a trip to the courthouse in the hometown of the OM to double-check on the date of his divorce, since that info would help when I have that heart-to-heart. What I found – or didn’t find – shocked me. There was no record of his divorce in that county, or any other in the state. I had met him twice before any of the EA or PA stuff started, and he’d talked about with some passion about how tough it was to go through a divorce.

I checked the county we live in, which is in a different state, and the only thing he’s in the books for is a traffic ticket that he paid last week. No divorce here, either. I had never questioned his marital status, and my WW said they never talked about it during their trysts, which she says were at his house.
Now it leaves me wondering just what I should do. She was quite forthcoming about details of how they worked to get time together without me becoming suspicious. Most likely, the OM is separated at the very least, but it’s also possible that I’ve been lied to some more.

What’s my next move? I have ten days to gather information. I already know way more about the A and the OM than my WW suspects, but this marital status thing is huge. What did she know? Was he lying to her about it?

I can’t afford to hire a PI. Do I go dumpster diving, which will be very difficult, or are there other ways I can check on things?
Things have been going so well that this has me completely floored. There has been NC since 1/1, and our time together has been outstanding. We’ve seemingly begun to mend things in a big way, and now this little bomb.

Need input, and need it quick.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

You could just say that there is no court record of the OM's divorce to the WW.

OM could of been married and D'd in another county or state.

Where and how long has the OM live for his adult life?

If there is NC. Why the need to dig up dirt on the OM?

We had verifiable NC for 6 months and if my H had lied about OW and OWH being divorced to avoid exposure it would have been a deal breaker for me.

My then-WH acted like the man-of-my-dreams (like Ahead's W seems to be acting) while we were reading Not--"Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass.

Ahead and his wife are reading the same book according to his recovery thread linked above.

I didn't know it at the time but I needed to expose to OWH in order to begin rebuilding trust, even though we had had 6 months of veriable NC. We seemed to be doing OK but I needed this missing piece to begin recovery, probably due to my 4 D-days when WH had gone further underground while earning an Oscar, Golden Globe and Emmy as a remorseful FWH.)

NC or no NC, if OM is/was D'd, Ahead needs to know. If he's still married or separated and his W knew/knows but was/is lying to avoid exposure, he needs to know.

If she is lying, he has to decide what he wants to do. And he needs help strategizing if he chooses to save his M.

That's one reason he's here on GQII instead of on the Recovery Forum. Did I come close in my perceptions, Ahead?

Wishing you the best,
Ace

Ahead, it is not uncommon that adulterers lie about being married. Your wife may or may not know. She may know and might be telling you he is divorced so you won't tell his wife. It might also be true that their affair caused a separation.

Either way, I would find his wife and give her a call. Obviously, this is something she has to know.

The fastest way I can suggest is to call his home #, disguising your # with *67 and see who answers. If a woman answers, tell her about the affair. If you live close to OM, you can get in a car and drive over there.


Does this prevent you from spending 15 hours a week together, meeting each others needs? This is what is required to sustain a romantic relationship.

I can think of the following possibilities:

1. He's never been married
2. He was divorced years ago in another galaxy far, far away
3. He is still married but lied to your wife
4. He is still married and your wife knows and she lied to you

The only scenarios that should concern you at all are 3 and 4.
If 3 is the case, you'd need to expose to OM's W but this may not be possible due to lack of information about her.
If 4 is the case, your W needs to work on openness and honesty.

Have you checked intelius? It will list people OM lived with and different addresses and when. You might be able to figure things out from there. I think there's a fee related to it - it will show you some teaser info and then you pay to get more detailed info.

He can also look up his name in directory assistance and see if a womans name pops up. I use www.anywho.com. And like turtlehead suggested, you can try www.intellius.com. I don't think it is that expensive to hire a P.I. to find out if you can't find it this way.

This is the same deal with me... I knew the guys name before I asked her what his name was. Fortunately, she gave me the correct answer. Just be cool about things. If she doesn't answer something according to what you think is the truth, don't jump on it. Try to figure out what the descripency is before you do anything. Sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do.

One thing is for sure, I will not divulge my snooping techniques.

OP, I would verify. Yes it does seem like too good to be true that your wife's affair that went on for so long now wants you back so quickly. Has she shown any remorse ? Does she feel disgusted for what she has done to you ?

When you talk to her daily, do you really believe that there is no more contact ? Also keep in mind NC has been in place for less than 3 weeks. I know everyone is different but i thought it generally takes months for women to come out of the fog. My wife is coming out slowly but it is V E R Y S L O W.

We'll take 'em in order here.....

Ace:

I'm following your advice on changing threads, and yes you've pretty much nailed what I need to do.

MelodyLane:

I know the OM's W/XW's name and where she works. Calling the home number is something I'm considering. I just have to come up with a phone number that can't be traced. I'm fairly sure they're separated at the very least. As for the 15 hours, we're making extra effort to make sure that is a minimum for each week. So far, so good there.

Turtlehead:

I tried Intelius. It sucked. The info it gave me was wrong. Reverse Phone Detective is much better, but it won't help me here.

Roy Batty:

Trust me. I'm taking this one slow and careful. I don't want to jump to a wrong conclusion and wreck something that's working out the way I want it to.

Optin1:

We're not talking about feelings right now. We're saving that for the end of the month when we can do it all at once. As for the NC, I have no doubts. Everything checks. As for the fog, I think she's so angry at him, the sun came out and the fog lifted fast. Everything I told her he was is being confirmed. We'll find out.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Glad you're still seeking, Ahead.


In my case, waiting was disastrous. Is there any way you can make the changes needed to discuss your heart-2-heart THIS weekend?

If she is lying and has gone waaaaay underground, that added week could make it that much more difficult to overcome.

If she is telling the truth, her reaction when you seek to speed things up MIGHT be another positive sign for you.

When my WH said that he was willing to do anything to help me heal and showed it in his actions and attitude, he earned his "F" as in "former" WH. It would seem like she would want this to be sooner than later, if she's telling the truth.

If your wife says and SHOWS that she's willing to do anything to help you heal (including last-minute changing of plans for this weekend), then you MIGHT know if you're kidding yourself or not. JMVHO.

Ace

Ace:

No. Next weekend is perfect. We still have one son at home, who's taking off to another city for the weekend to go job hunting. We both have Saturday and Sunday off, which will give us time to handle with what we must without having to face other people until we have our acts together.

As for underground, the feeling I get would be that if he was underground, it would be okay by her.

I could be wrong. I'll find out. And if I'm wrong, this is probably over, anyway. I have my limits.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Another thing you could try is to go to your county tax assessor's website and look up his records. In our county you can search by address or by owner name and it's free. If he owns the house with someone else, it will show up on the record.

princessmeggy:

That's not going to work either. The county he lives in isn't exactly that up to date. I'm going to do a little more digging, but I don't think I'll be able to get much more in the way of evidence on this matter anytime soon.

If anyone else has any ideas, I'm all ears.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Do you have a friend who's phone caller ID is "restricted"? If so, maybe you could borrow it for this call.

If not and you have a land-line, can you call the phone company and change your phone to "restricted"? That way you could call their home phone to find what you need to know and change it back after, if you want.

Could you pay cash for a Trac Fone, use it for this call and then throw it away?

How 'bout an old fashioned pay phone....if you can find one.

As a last resort, you might just call her at work and tell her you know that her husband had an A with your wife and you're willing to give her any information she might want. Then see how she responds. Hopefully, you'll hear "who cares, we've been divorced for years" or something similar.

Still wishing you the best,

Ace

All you have to do is dial *67 and it will be disguised. You can practice by calling your home phone from your cell or vice versa.

MelodyLane:

Right now, there's not a lot I can do. And to be quite honest, the past three weeks with my FWW have been absolutely amazing. Things get better day by day. When we were eating lunch, I happened to look up, and the way she was looking at me took me back 25 years. The two of us are connecting in ways we haven't done since we first began dating. It feels like we're starting over, except that we know where we want to go, and where we never want to go to again.

The Big Talk is now just a few days away. Rather than mess things up and do any LB'ing, I'm going to put all this aside for now and concentrate on the "bank deposits."

Right now, those deposits dwarf anything the bailout has promised. I know things will get a little dicey next weekend, but I'm getting more hopeful by the day. There's no chance things have gone underground -- she's not that good an actor. Nobody is.

I know this is going to be a roller coaster, but this part of the ride is too good. I'll need to remember it when the next dip happens.

----

Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.

"There's no chance things have gone underground -- she's not that good an actor. Nobody is."

Not true. WS's in A's are EXPERT actors and liars. Keep your eyes and ears open and verify what you are seeing.

I could be wrong, but to me your posts are starting to look like you would like to just "stuff the A" in the past and deny anything that might be going on.

Best wishes though.

AM

I would slightly disagree with you on the "EXPERT actors" term. Yes they are actors, but not necesarily expert. Unless someone is a total sociopath, people get sloppy when they commit a crime. If a person is looking for the signs... they will detect the deception.

I had so many signs that were thrown at me... I just chose to ignore them. Now I'm much more vigilant.

If AheadoftheCurve can see a difference in his FWW for the better... things are most likely better. If his FWW is somehow conducting a secret lifestyle, there is no way she well be able to continue to put the current level of energy into her marriage. She would burn out... get depressed, withdrawn and all that.

Hi Ahead,

In your Recovery forum thread, you said:


She fooled you for 16 months, and only after her tongue was loosened by a few beers did she confess.

You sent her with a trusted friend to deliver an NC statement in person but OM left the door open.

Being in withdrawal, she needed continued fixes with the pre-paid cell, but you busted her after she had fooled you for another week. During your talk, she said things you perceived were disparaging to OM.

You bought her a nice ring for Christmas....maybe this signaled to her that she was valuable to you, the A was indeed over, and possibly she was thankful that you were willing to forgive her and start over, which was further proven by hysterical bonding. Right?

Then yesterday you said:


Ahead, I totally understand your feelings of euphoria as I experienced the same thing for 2 months.....between D-Days #1 & #3.

I truly hope you are right and that you and your wife are the exception to the rule, truly ahead of the curve as infidelity recoveries go.

Please realize, however that your amazing recovery could be a fluffy aberration, especially if she is covering up the fact that her 'commitment to you' is merely an attempt to buy her time. Time for what? To justify that she is making every effort to re-bond with you (so she can say she gave it her best effort), but still intending to keep her options open with OM if it doesn't work out with you. Her disparaging remarks about OM may have been made to throw you off, too.

I said all that to say this:

If you begin your heart-2-heart without finding out if she lied about OM's being D'd, and she did lie and is still lying by omission, your temporal joy will be headed for that devastating crash you alluded to when you first posted but you won't know it until the collision occurs.

There is something you can do to avoid that before your talk, and it does not need to cause LBs to burst your present recovery bubble.

I know there may be landlines in some remote parts of the country don't have the *67 anonymity feature. But there are other ways you can find out before your big talk.

It seems like your enjoy now, find out later (denial) might bring you present rewards, but please consider seeking the truth today so that you can possibly deal with any discrepancies now and enjoy the fruits of your labor for your entire future.

INVHO, you will enhance your chances of that future including more of what you're presently experiencing if you confirm OM's status today. If he is NOT D'd, exposure to OMW will have to be a part of your Big Talk....but the only way you'll know is if you call first.

I hope you prove me wrong, Ahead but I feel I need to offer my similar experiences with suggestions for you to consider so that you can possibly avoid my devastating errors. Please think about it.

Wishing you the best,
Ace

Ace:

She fooled me for 16 months because I wasn't looking for anything. Now I know, and in case you're wondering, I'm still monitoring everything. Unless she can clone herself, NC is in place.

She had to get her ring re-sized. It came back yesterday, and we picked it up together. A really nice moment.

I told her a week or so ago that I have no reservations about working on the R and our M, and she asked if I was sure. I said I was, but I get the feeling she thinks she's still got a bomb to drop on me. On the other hand, I have an active imagination, and I already know a lot of stuff that she's not aware of, so that bomb may be a dud. Or it may not be. So, I'm still doing research and keeping up with things.

As for finding out for sure about the OM status, I'll work on that next week. Maybe I can nail it down by Wednesday.

I'm taking your words very seriously. You've already walked down this bumpy road, and I'd be a fool to ignore your advice.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Roy, that assumes that the end user can RECOGNIZE manipulation. I have found that often they can't. What may be profoundly obvious to you and me may not be obvious to a shell shocked BS who has an emotional investment in seeing nothing.

And many simply do not have good bs detectors, period.

Point taken. In AheadOfTheCurve's case though, he seems to have a good feel for the situation.

I wouldn't assume that. He has an emotional investment in NOT detecting subterfuge. It is not uncommon that a very shrewd person can see it in everyone elses marriage, but not their own.

Maybe we should let AOTC speak for himself and not try to profile his situation.

"We are what we repeatedly do." - Aristotle

I believe he is speaking for himself, isn't he? But we very much should profile his situation if we see fit. There is no reason not to. A BS is about the least objective person in their own situation.

Roy,

You may be right. My very good lying husband looked like crap for about three months prior to D-day. Once D-day occurred, my BS detector (double entendre intentional)was on high alert and less lies slipped by. But they still did occur for about half the time there was still contact at work (three months until H left his job and we moved). I finally asked FWH when he stopped lying to me and he said "as soon as I could". One of the factors that stopped him was that he kept getting caught and I would unload huge blunt comments on him for doing it.

In any case, my point to Aheadofcurve is to keep his eyes and ears open. Maybe he is - hope so - just some of his posts seem to have "rosy glasses" or perhaps this is an extraordinary recovery start.

AM

Melody, Roy, Armymama:

What scares me right now is the possibility that I AM wearing rose colored glasses right now. I admit the possibility.

But her total transparency makes a difference. I have been monitoring everything, believe me. I know what to look for and I know where the possibilities lie. Hyperawareness is not a bad thing.

I will do further research on the OM's status next week. I really do need to know before next weekend's H2H talk. But I also don't want to stir up anything that's over and to let dead dogs lie in the ditch where they belong. I don't want to pull a Frankenstein on this thing. That would be just a bit counterproductive.

If it turns out she's shining me on right now, she'll have two big bruises -- one from my shoe, and the other from the curb. If this is not real, what will be real is the end. I have my limits, as I've said before. And if that happens, the consequences will be ugly for her, because I think our two boys will not speak to her ever again. I will not expose unless it's Plan D for that very reason.

And yes, I'm nervous about what awaits. But it's a test that she has to pass. And it's a test I have to pass as well. All i know is, I was real good on tests back in my school days.

Wish me luck. I think I'm gonna need it.

The beauty of this is -- if I'm right about the situation, we really ARE ahead of the curve. Then it'll be up to me not to mess it up.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Then you'll be the first couple on MB to go through recovery with completely smooth sailing.

Even IF you know all the facts, and even IF she is being transparent, and even IF she's truly remorseful, YOU are going to find yourself in about six months in some interesting emotional stages.

P.S. I could tell you about it, what 99% of the people on MB have experienced, but it probably won't apply to you.

princessmeggy:

Even IF you know all the facts, and even IF she is being transparent, and even IF she's truly remorseful, YOU are going to find yourself in about six months in some interesting emotional stages.

P.S. I could tell you about it, what 99% of the people on MB have experienced, but it probably won't apply to you. <G>

Hence the last sentence of my previous post. "The beauty of this is -- if I'm right about the situation, we really ARE ahead of the curve. Then it'll be up to me not to mess it up."

Yeah, I'm aware that I could be the problem down the road. If she's doing everything she's supposed to do, I have to reward her for it. And I still have things to work through, of course. A lot of it will be to tell my ego to shut up and sit down. I've been all over the map the last couple of days as it is, and we haven't even had our long-scheduled disinfecting H2H talk yet.

I had a couple of triggers yesterday, and it got a little tense, but I just now woke up this morning as she went to work, and everything was cool. We were both remorseful about last night -- and it really wasn't all that much to be remorseful about, honestly, just a little b!tchin', nothing major.

That kind of reaction gives me even more confidence than the other, more overt signs of bonding. Resilience is what's needed more than anything right now. She's being patient with me, and I'm trying to do the same with her.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ace:

Computers aren't an issue. She's not computer savvy, and he knows even less. The OM wasn't even smart enough to research that tourist spot they went to together last year. He couldn't find any of the good stuff, despite all the brochures and advertising. They lived on their cell phones during the A. And that's covered. And she isn't sneaking around. She's been keeping me posted on what she's doing. I have enough independent confirmation of her movements to feel confident about that, as well.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

So much for waiting until next weekend for the heart-to-heart talk. Last night, after we'd started talking about how she needs to sync up her work schedule to mine, my WW suddenly opened the floor for discussion of all the things I wanted to ask her.

It was a memorable evening. Not all that pleasant, but memorable nonetheless.

I took it from the beginning, and she told me it started out innocently, two former co-workers talking about people they knew, etc. They'd gone to lunch, and the conversations gradually got more personal. Then came Der Tag in May 2007, when they went back to his place, went for a motorcycle ride, and then the other kind of ride and the PA was on.

Not pleasant to hear, but I kept my cool throughout, asking questions and leading her through the story. She commented that I seemed calm, ut she could see my knuckles turning white. I think that I impressed her. I did my best not to interrupt and break the information flow.

I don't know if it was smart or not, but that's when I dropped my little bomb about the OM's questionable marital status. She was absolutely stunned. The blood drained from her face and she got real quiet. I asked her another question, and she didn't answer. She said she was still trying to work through what I told her.

I went through the whole thing at that point, the trip to the two courthouses and coming up empty on divorce papers, the OMW/XW? MySpace page where she refers to herself as Mrs*** as her logon name, on the link to her college connection board where she talks about her interests as "I Love Riding our Harley with My Husband **** " which was last updated October 31, 2008. Later on, I showed her picture from MySpace, and commented that I'd bet money that both only have the red hair, but the same body type, etc.

I also told her it's possible they were divorced in another state, but in checking on Texas on the internet (a state that puts all of it on the web), the names didn't pop up, and that the OMW/XW?'s home state would be a long-shot.

In retrospect, I'm not sure this was smart. I don't think that the info will cause her to break NC, but I'll have to monitor that.

Then she told me something that made my jaw drop. She owns the house, and he lives in that camper trailer that I saw parked on the front lawn. I had to laugh at that. If true, how lame. What does it say about this putz? He's a mechanic and doesn't make much money. She's an accountant-type with a really good job. OM told WW that they get along better now that they're divorced. I suggested that it's unlikely he sleeps in the trailer all the time, and she nodded her head on that one.

However, in their times over there, WW was never there when the OMW/XW? was around, so she doesn't know. She never was in the house itself, and the OM doesn't keep photos in the trailer. She's never actually seen the OMW/XW? or their two sons, so she's clueless on that.

As for the PA itself, she figured it was going to be a ONS, and she surprised herself when she went back for more. When I pressed her on why, she didn't have an answer. I'm not sure she knows, but that's a topic for another day - Saturday, I'm guessing.

She also told me she never wished she started it, but she's still going through WD and didn't express the kind of remorse I was hoping to see. She referred to it as an "experience." I also told her I wished I could turn back the clock three years and b!itch-slap myself for not taking care of business and leaving the gate open for this. I also said she had no excuse going through the gate, but that that was a separate deal.

She said they would get together about once every other week, never more often than that, even though they were talking on the phone only once in awhile but texting each other like a couple of teenagers. She said they met where he works a few times, waited until the place cleared out, and go at it on the desk. Again, not pleasant to hear, but I had asked for some of the details. On my own head be it.

She says she doesn't know why she told me (ironically on his birthday) and wishes she hadn't. She figures the A would have died a natural death and I never would have known or been hurt by it. But the WD was obvious, because she says she still misses him. When I pressed her on what she missed, she ran off the EA portion of the list. When I asked about the PA part of the program, she looked at me and snorted and said "You have nothing to worry about there."

At that point, we called it quits. I proceeded to do my best to remind her about that last point. She enjoyed the session either twice as much or three times as much as I did. No complaints there. <G>

I did tell her that the stuff she told me definitely was disturbing, but that I was willing to help her and wait out the WD for the simple fact that she was with me, not him, and that this past month has been good.

We had to cut things short, since she had to get up at 4:00 to go to work. I got out of bed around midnight so my thrashing around wouldn't wake her up and got onto the internet to do more research on divorce status. She wound up getting up, and I walked through how I got all my information on the OM and his W/XW. She had no idea any of that was possible on the internet. Like I'd said early, neither one of them is tech-savvy.

I also gave her my analysis of things. That POS basically found himself in a possible FWB situation, and took total advantage of it. She's fun to be with, and a tiger in the sack, so who could ask for more? But when the A was revealed, it was time to boogie on. Who needs the drama of angry BH and livid adult sons who would tell WW to go to he!!, with one of them his size and possibly temped to come over and attempt to beat his a$$. (Note: the OM is about 6-3 and ex-military and a good shot. On the other hand, true hate can make a difference. I might be five inches shorter and eight years older, but YS is a 6-2 weightlifter who's 19 years younger than the OM. And I have no idea how YS would react to all this. I don't ever want to find out.)

And on top of that, he'd have to deal with WW's hysterics if it all went down like that. Like I said, no percentage in that. All contact after that was initiated by WW, and wasn't always responded to. I told her one other thing about him. Anyone who spent that much time with her and didn't want to fight for her was a pu$$y. He didn't appreciate what she had to offer. Dude's an idiot, which is my biggest ally in getting the M back on track.

We're nowhere near done talking about this. The answers she gave bring up other questions. And I think she has questions of me as well, which I will answer fully and truthfully.

I do know this -- I will attempt to contact the OMW/XW? at some point this week, and hopefully take her to lunch to pick her brain about all this.

I'm not sure about being ahead of the curve. I'm just hoping there's not a train around the bend ready to run my butt over.

Thoughts, anyone? I eagerly await feedback.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ace:

Why better in phone than in person? I'd like to see her reactions, etc., while talking about this. It would give me a better gauge on what's going on. That's if she's willing, of course.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

You may not realize it but you two have an unintentional (and possibly undetectable) bond ~ both just having been betrayed ~ that could lead to places neither of you intend to go.

It could be risky, that's why I wouldn't do it alone in person. But that's me.

Ace

Ace:

You may not realize it but you two have an unintentional (and possibly undetectable) bond ~ both just having been betrayed ~ that could lead to places neither of you intend to go.

It could be risky, that's why I wouldn't do it alone in person. But that's me.

Hmmm.. let's just say my boundaries are completely unassailable. There is no danger of that, not in any way....

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

I think that the advice to just call the OMW is probably sound. You appear to be a lot like myself in wanting to force the issues. A phone conversation with the OMW would be adequate.

You now have a dialog with your wife about the affair. I would just proceed with the Plan A stuff and monitor your conversations with your wife.

My wife offers up little details from time to time just in normal conversation. I then ask small questions for clarification.

The biggest issue that I still face is coming to grips with the fact that my wife had moved on from our marriage. The idea that she was gone (in her mind) coupled with the fact that I still had a glimmer of hope is hard for me to reconcile. The idea that we viewed things so totally different shakes me up a bit... but I learned a lesson.

Remain vigilant, enjoy your time with your wife, listen to what she says to you and contemplate... no need for immediate reactions or responses.

If you two are spending a lot of time with each other... much more than before and things are peaceful and intimate with some fun mixed in... I'd say you're on the right track.

Remain vigilant.

Roy / Ace:

Thank for the advice. This has been a rather rocky day. Neither one of us got more than 3-4 hours of sleep. She just came home for lunch while I was running an errand, and we had a grand total of 10 minutes together.

She told me that she can't talk about this anymore, that she's worn out, and she's tired of me bringing things up all the time.

I haven't been, and she's the one last night that initiated the conversation about the past. I've been told that she can't help me with my problems while she's working through hers. My response was that I'm feeling really frustrated right now. There are two books I've asked her to read, Not "Just Friends" by Sharon Glass -- she got to page 140 about a month ago and just stopped. The other is HNHN by Dr. Harley. She told me she's tired of me harping on the books. I mentioned one of the books briefly about a week ago, and brought the other home from the library yesterday.

Bottom line is that I'm starting to get angry with her attitude. I feel like I'm carrying the whole load. And if she mentions her pain one more time, I might explode. Her actions started this whole cascade of crap.

Yeah, I'm just venting -- but now I have to go to work and put on a happy face after 4 hours of sleep. I've done it before, and I'll do it again. I know this resentment won't help and will probably push things back, but I can't help it.

I'm so sick of it.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Yes, most definitely time to ease back on things... you've gotten a lot of answers to your questions. Time now to pursue some pleasant times with your wife. And I mean a lot! Let's say, 98% other pursuits to 2% talking about the affair.

You'll talk again when the time is right, but down the road, my friend.

Look at it this way... if she is not in contact with the OM and is with you... you now need to take full advantage of the opportunity to court her again. That is what she really needs... she just might not know it yet. You'll never convince her verbally, she has to feel it.

AOTC,

I realize that my situation was/is not the exact same thing you are going through... but I think you really have to ask yourself "what do I want my wife to be?"

Do you want your wife to be forever remorseful and sad or do you want your wife to be that women you fell in love with?

I want my wife to be the person who I dated and I initially fell in love with, although, this may not be exactly Marriage Builder's condoned advice.

Granted, I've only known my wife for about 6 years now... 5 years in our relationship, but I hope to renew a relationship with her where there are no regrets and we have those consistant happy thoughts about each other.

Therefore I have to be extremely careful about dumping too much of my hurt onto her.

My wife understands she hurt me. She understands that she received poor advice and made poor decisions. If I want the kind of wife that I think I want, I have let some of that hurt just lie in the past and move on and do the things that I did before to woo her. It worked before. It seems to be working again.

In my case, I can't reject her again like I did the first time.

One of the worst things I ever did to her was to push her away, as one fateful night I accused her of being too clingy. That was akin to telling her that I hated her and to get lost. I made many mistakes.

Now I want my wife to be clingy. I want her to be clingy to me the rest of my life. I now realize how blessed I was.

Therefore I have to be the man and do the things that won her the first time around.

For me, it's really a small price to pay for a future of happiness. I'm not the most affectionate guy around, but I want my wife. My wife thrives on the intamacy and affection. I have to make the change if I want a happy wife. It's that simple.

The thing is that I can change... an my wife is responding to me. Just like before. For me, that is what I have to do to "work" on my marriage.

The key for me... to remain vigilant! Not just keeping my eye on her, but to keep my eyes wide open in our relationship!

Ahead,

Unfortunately, the BS usually must carry most of the load for the first few months of recovery. Hence, we often see the BS start to show real anger about the 6 month point when they feel they can put the load down.

You are on the rollercoaster and the "honeymoon" period seems to be ending, this is normal.

Your W is not even really interested in your feelings right now. Hopefully as her WD goes away she will in fact care somewhat about your feelings.

We'll see. Just remember you are on the rollercoaster so keep your safety strap buckled.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

I guess I picked my screen name perfectly. You say that usually happens at the six month mark. We're just about at three months.

Guess I really am ahead of the curve. <G>

I just had to vent. We now return to our regular programming, which is already in progress.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

There was something else I forgot to mention about the talk we had last night. When the A started, the OM was living with someone, which makes my WW a OW of sorts. That's like piling on. And she's surprised somehow that he basically threw in the towel when she confessed and exposed the A to me. And she's surprised that he probably had something else going on the side after he ditched the GF. The word denial comes to mind.

I also think I've figured our something else about why I've been so insulted by what's happened.

Yeah, the A is bad enough, but it's who she chose. I can't see this guy having a whole lot going for him.

If he was telling the truth about his marital status, we're talking about a guy who's reduced to living in a camper trailer on the front lawn of his ex-wife because he can't afford rent on an apartment. OOOH, but he has a motorcycle. And when they went out of town to one of the state's top tourist destinations, he couldn't find the cool touristy stuff despite brochures in every motel and gas station within 50 miles, signs and billboards everywhere, and markers almost amounting to neon signs saying "Here's the Good Stuff." Dear Sweet Lord.

And if he was lying, he was using the trailer in his front yard to cheat on his wife. My WW knows that this is a distinct possibility.

And just the same, she's going through withdrawal, pining for this piece of pond scum. This is a woman who is the best I've ever seen at seeing through people, spotting the B.S. artists and calling 'em on it. How could she not see this one a mile away?

I'm dumbfounded by this whole thing. That is one of the sources of my anger. Couldn't she have done better????!!! That's like an extra kick in the crotch.

Arghhhhhh!

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Aheadofcurve,

I think you still are ahead of the curve and what you are thinking/feeling is pretty normal.

Maybe vets can chime in here, but in my case, as withdrawal occurred, my H was able to see many, many inperfections with his A partner that came as a surprise to him. These included previous As disclosed to me by her H, her manipulation of FWH as he was first into the EA portion of the A, Ow's selfishness in ignoring her family, etc. etc. I figured the more of these he was able to recognize, the better. It made withdrawal easier as it went along. Months later he is totally disgusted with himself, but it definitely was not that way early on after D-day.

It is pretty common for WSs to "affair down", chosing someone that is less educated, lower on the economic scale, character deficient, etc. There are a couple of pretty good threads on here about this topic. Certainly was true in my case. The OW was/is no prize.

In any case, I think you are still on track. Stay calm and hang on. The ride is not near over. Best wishes to you.

AM

armymama:

I think I'm ahead of the curve in a way that's not so good. I have officially passed into the next stage of the BH mindset. Extreme anger and resentment.

I wanted to know things in the heart-to-heart talk. I found 'em out all right. It's not the details that are bothering me the most however. What's fueling things is the way she spoke of them.

Yes, I know she's not even one month since NC and she's going through withdrawal. It was her overall lack of remorse that bothers me. Yes, she said she wishes she had never started it, but when I asked her what she thought about the whole thing, she called it "an experience."

An "experience!!!!" That really got to me, though on a delayed reaction. That phrase right there has me so geeked out that I'm ready to walk. I feel right now like -- how dare she feel pain for breaking things off??? She's the one that caused the whole problem in the first place!!! I am tied up in knots, and she doesn't want to hear about it because "I can't deal with my pain and yours at the same time."

That is so galling to me. Now I know this stuff follows a natural progression. Every single book I've read or skimmed has described what we've gone through and my emotions almost to a "T." Intellectually, I know that this too shall pass. But the intensity of my anger is a little scary.

I'm an intense guy to begin with. Any time I take up an interest, or get involved with something important, I give it 110%. In fact, during the talk, when I mentioned that this is a new me, that I'm fixing the things that were wrong, that even I could see that I had issues, she told me she was having problems coping with that fact.

In the past, I put all of my focus on my job. I'm in a cut-throat type profession, one that takes a lot of time and passion in which to succeed. I spent a lot of time at work, and she said she'd adapted to it over 20 years. Now that I'm taking longer dinner breaks and going to work later in an effort to re-focus on what's important, she feels like I'm shadowing her. Our oldest is living with us right now as he looks for a full-time job, and so she says she has no alone time.

I can understand that, but I've had my fill of alone time. I've had more alone time than I've ever wanted. I bit my tongue the other night and didn't tell her that a lot of my alone time didn't qualify as alone time for her, since that's when she was banging the OM. You have no idea how badly I wanted to say that to her. I was proud of my restraint.

I feel like she's not doing a damned thing to fix what's wrong. I'm tired of doing all the heavy lifting while she feels sorry for herself. "What do you miss about him?" First answer was "his eyes." I'd like to poke 'em out and go from there. Won't do it of course, but a guy can dream.

FYI, she has done nothing to violate NC, or even act like she's contemplating it. Her actions say she's totally committed to making it work. Using the stick when the carrot is working would be wrong and counterproductive. I know this.

Last night, all this got to me, so I did what I've been doing and wrote a letter to her not intended to be read by her. I figured, let the bile out and I'll feel better. I was shocked when it hit the fifth page.

About the only good thing right now is that my appetite has disappeared once again. So far I've lost 25 pounds. I've been needing to lose weight anyway, and I've been good about taking vitamins and going to the gym to lift weights as part of my rehab from joint replacement surgery. I actually look better now than I have in years, and I'm back up to where I was lifting-wise before all the medical problems hit last year. I'm starting to look just a little bit cut, so I can't complain about that.

My emotions are perhaps a little bit over the top right now. Then again, maybe they're perfectly appropriate. What I need right now is advice on how to handle it and not screw things up.

I will say, anti-depressants are not an option. I am not suffering from CD. CD comes from feeling depressed for no reason. I have plenty of reason to feel like crap, and I'm not going to cloud my mind. I likely would have been diagnosed with ADD if I were growing up right now, and I taught myself how to concentrate on things. I can learn this one now, as well. I will not allow my mind to be clouded by drugs.

Okay, other than that -- what do I do to weather this storm???

Advice eagerly sought. You have no idea how eagerly. Or maybe you do. Arrrrgh.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09


A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

I think your WW's post affair response is not just her missing the OM. It's also her having to see that she was just used and dumped by the OM.

My WH was at about the same age as your W when he began his A. He claims that when he was on his motorcycle, he felt free, free from all responsibilities. He felt like someone else.
This is WS's 'Fantasy Island'. I hated that show when it was on and I hate my own new meaning of it even more.

Just a thought, but your WW was maybe not attracted to him for any other reason than the thrill of the ride (on the bike), or a completely different lifestyle than she was in.
If the OM had been successful, dressed in a well tailored suit and had a high end condo, I don't think this would have made you feel better. You know you are a much better catch than he. You sound like a grounded and safe person. You are miles ahead of him.

My WH's OW was attractive and well kept. In my situation, this is a hurdle.
It shouldn't be b/c I know that I am attractive and well kept also, but it is one more nasty issue to deal with.

Take care

Aheadofcurve,

I could have written your exact post a few months ago. Subtitute the word "relationship" for "experience" and it would have fit to a T. Just a couple days ago, H used the word "relationship" instead of A and I jumped on him for it.

I also decided to go without the anti-depressants, even though my medical doc and ICs kept asking. I journaled my bad feelings, lost 26 pounds on the infidelity diet, asked and had answered all kinds of details, obsessively reconstructed the entire A from cell phone records, emails, letters between H and OW. All this was a two-edged sword. Even though I needed to know because my imagination was ever so much worse, knowing the details made me angry and it took time to process them all and be put them in their place in our M history - kind of like ripping a scab over and over until there is a scar and not an open bleeding wound.

D-day plus 9 and 1/2 months, even though there are still huge "bumps in the road", recovery is ongoing and I am hopeful that our marriage will get better and better. I wish the same for you.

AM

The first few months after D-Day, I had a mission. Snoop to find out what is the extent of this A, who is this OP, plant spy techniques, find out how to fix things in the M, in my H and in myself. This takes a whole lot of energy and focus as you are well aware.

Then after all the physical leg work was done, my mind had the time to really reflect as to what was going on. Enter the stage of anger and resentment you mention.
As you read on this forum, these are normal feelings for this situation.

You are acknowledging what you are feeling and this is good. Accept that it is OK to feel like this under these circumstances. It is hard but try to keep your head level, your WW needs to see you are still in control of yourself.

Breathe and breathe again.

I read your posts and understand your pain and where you are going.
Your WW will babble, babble and babble some more. Don't take it to heart, ignore it. Don't let her ridiculous words eat you up. This is hard to do, but it is not impossible.

Take care

Hi Ahead,

Is it possible that part of your pain (in addition to her lack of remorse from WD and choice to 'affair down') is because you are used to being in control...and she took control (and blindsided you) when she accelerated your carefully thought-out-timeline for your heart to heart talk?

You. Lost. Control.

Just a thought.

Possible solution:

Realize that you/she can only control your individual selves. The rollercoaster automatically takes all control out of your hands. You're human. You may be ahead of the human curve in that your anger has arrived prematurely, but you're doing great overall.

How you respond to being unable to control her will probably determine whether the infidelity rollercoaster curves will send you into a tailspin or if you'll be able to remain even keel.

Ace

Ace:

It's not a control issue. As a matter of fact, I'd been dying to get it over with. The date and time was selected for HER benefit. She chose the new time on a whim, and because of it got just three hours of sleep for work.

And then she blamed me for her being tired, saying that's all I ever want to talk about. Wha-hunh???

I gave up control of things nearly 24 years ago when I said "I do." And I was good with that. It's when she said "I did it" nearly three months ago that things got a little weird.

I could give a crap about being in control. Except, maybe, could she, like, control HERSELF just a little bit? Then we wouldn't be in this fix.

I'm doing my best not to let my anger take control. Just got back from the gym, and let me tell you, getting that 36th rep done on the shoulder press does wonders for burning off anger and resentment.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09


A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Well, I just got off the phone with the OMW. And it is OMW, not XW.

The hornet's nest has been disturbed, the light is shining on things, and the roaches will be scuttling for cover.

And I feel sick to my stomach.

This is going to get ugly.

I have to work, so I can't post any more, but the next few days will be very interesting. Interesting in the Chinese Curse sense.

Wish me luck. I'm gonna need it. Wish the OMW luck, too. She may need it more than I do.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09


A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ah, the lies keep unraveling.

Your wife is aware, I assume, that OM IS married? If she's been in WD for a month already, I'd say she ought to be showing signs of coming out of it soon, although this will surely make her feel even worse in the short term. Can you imagine how STUPID and FOOLISH she's feeling? After she gets past WD, your Plan A efforts will start yielding some results and recovery can begin, so hold on some more.

Just a thought--I remember the blood-red anger and the funky purple resentment of the early months after D-Day. Even though my FWH never expressed remorse the way I wanted to hear it (and many never do), his behavior has won my heart back. So, try not to focus on the remorse thing. It's what she does once she's past WD that really matters.

I, too, must commend you on the awesome way you have conducted yourself throughout. You are an amazing man.

This is why you can't believe what a WW says during an affair.
Even if she wasn't lying. Whether she believed the the OM when he told her he was divorced or she wanted to believe the OM.

How can anyone believe anyone that will say and do anything to get a married woman into bed. You know better. Unfortunately WW's don't.

RHW:

She has no idea that he's still married. I told her that was a distinct possibility after the divorce records failed to turn up at the courthouse. In fact, she wants to know his status. When I broached to her the possibility that he was still married, she visibly blanched. That idea shocked her and almost made her physically ill. Conclusion: she got played, bigtime.

But I'm not going to tell her just yet. She has to work early early early in the morning each of the next three days, and I work second shift, so if I tell her during the week, she'll wind up going to work on three hours sleep again. She's been fighting a cold for the past three weeks, and I don't want her getting sicker.

I'm going to wait until Saturday if I can, unless my hand is forced from the other side of things. The OMW is gathering evidence right now, including a spreadsheet I sent her of all cell phone calls from the WW phone, as well as text message times from January 21 on. (The phone company has five months missing, including some key months, and haven't been able to get them to me despite two solid months of requests. I wasn't very nice to them today when I called.)

When I talked to the OMW, she knew who my WW was, and even knew about things that happened to our kids over the past year and a half. That POS OM has been playing it coy, showing her text messages and conducting conversations with the WW in front of the OMW, dismissing it as coming from a woman on CD meds who is obsessed with him. Sneaky, sneaky. Purloined letter, anyone?

He's claimed I called him to ask what was going on, and the OMW asked if I'd ever had him work on her car. All of those are total fabrications.

He's not aware that I saw a couple of key texts from him that were sent after d-day that put the lie to all that. I don't have a copy, but I can quote from 'em. And the WW's best friend, who told her she was being an idiot, can and will back up the WW's version of events.

He has a profile on one of the dating websites that at least two of the WW's friends saw, and the WW knows the name of the putative GF the OM was living with in Spring of '07. I'll have to get that from her ASAP.

I can see how this is going to play out. The OM is a serial cheater and knows all the moves. He knows how to spin, and how to dodge. Only problem is he's going against me. Bad move. Re-e-e-e-ely bad move. I am extremely prominent in my community and have great credibility. In fact, the OMW knew who I was before I called, and I have a feeling she's going to buy what I have over his spin.

My main worry right now is the WW. He's going to go after her with everything he's got. I have her back, and I will do what I must to protect her. Yeah, she messed up -- oh brother did she mess up -- but she's still the mother of my children, and anything she's spun to me so far has been to "spare my feelings." And I'll buy that as an explanation. She's still in WD and I'm going to cut her some slack. Not a lot, but some.

When I was about four years old, I was sitting on the floor near an electrical outlet. I have no idea why, but I took the corner of the flannel shirt I was wearing and stuck it in the socket, with predictable results. My mother was standing right there and saw the whole thing. She looked at me and laughed and laughed, saying "What did you expect?"

That's how the WW will feel when I tell her, and I'm worried about what her reaction will be. I worry about her state of mind and, as I said earlier, I will do everything I can to protect her from this POS and his likely reaction and predictable smears.

What she did is between us, and we will work it out -- between us. I will protect her from him. And I will do my best to help the OMW. She, too, is an innocent party in all this mess.

Should be a lively weekend. Wish me luck.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

I think your wife's shocked, "deer in the headlights look" may be more from knowing you are looking into OM's marital status and will be contacting OMW soon.

Don't tell your WW anything about contacting OMW. OM will be calling her soon for damage control and her head will explode soon enough. Do NOT tip your hand! Sit back and observe.

What are you protecting WW from? You sound like you think WW is a victim here and the big bad boogey OM tricked her. She needs to feel the consequences of her actions. You have refused to expose to family and now you are protecting her. I think you are in your own fog and being played here. You underestimate just how warped a WS can be. WW isn't spinning anything to spare your feeling...well maybe 2% but the rest is to cover her butt.

Proceed with caution AOTC.

Black Raven:

You have this one wrong. I met this POS twice before anything ever started, about two years ago. He told me about how rough his divorce was, how tough it was on his kids, etc. He's an accomplished liar. I didn't even think to check his status until last week. I apologized to the OMW about that today when I called her.

Her best friend was spun the same story. She told my WW that he was a jerk and it didn't pass the smell test, but by that time she was in her fog and wouldn't listen. Her friend helped me so much after d-day. Without her, the M would have already done a swirly.

And he ain't ABOUT to call her. Trust me on that one. WW is Irish and Italian, and she'd blister his hide like no one ever has before. And I'd bet dollars to donuts she'd tell me, not just because she knows I'm monitoring the cell phone bill, but because she's so angry at him about the marital status thing. She's the best B.S. detector I've ever met. We used to joke that if she wasn't just five-foot-nothing, she'd be a great cop. I think the B.S. detector is back in working order.

I'm not going to expose to our kids, especially our youngest, because I worry about HIS reaction. It wouldn't be pretty. He probably would never speak to his mother again, but I worry more about his instinct to go after the OM. He's about the same size as that POS, and he's a weightlifter, but the OM is ex-military.

Besides, exposure to the family would do no good. The A is dead and over. He's been trying to separate after d-day, because he knows that the consequences of doing anything else will be catastrophic for him. His wife makes three times as much money as he does. He's toast. And I want to help push the lever on the toaster. Nothing else could give me greater pleasure.

Yeah, my WW did something horrible. But you know what? She got played by an expert. She wasn't prepared for anything like this. We'll have our own day of reckoning, I assure you. But I won't have her harmed by this POS. Not gonna happen. Any emotional bruises will be applied by Yours Truly, not him. He's pond scum.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

lol okay AOTC. We will see.



How is POSOM going to harm her?

Sounds exactly like my OM. A wayward could care less if the OP is married too. Sure, they may feel some guilt about it but it will not stop them. Even the knowledge of not being the only one doesnt matter.

Dont try to protect them, they did it to themselves.

Hmm. I agree with Ace here.

Know this: Your reactions and your wife's are not special or unique - they are typical.

You think you're angry now? Wait for a few months.

You will also come to the realisation that your wife was not some hapless pawn in this affair who was tricked and trapped by OM. But unleashing your anger on him for now is productive.

It's actually incredibly foggy in here!

bigkahuna:

I wanted to talk sooner rather than later. The only reason I was willing to wait was because she works first shift, and she wouldn't get much sleep after whatever talk we had. Which is what happened. Control had nothing to do with it, honest.

And yeah, I know the anger will come. She was tricked and trapped, but had plenty of chances to say no. I get that. But you ever see a cat chasing a string? I'm finding out more and more about this guy. He's been doing this stuff likely his entire marriage. He's slick, he's good. But his run is over. I'm going to see to it.

As for dealing with the WW in the future, that's down the road, and we'll get to it. First things first.

And keep the OMW in your thoughts. She just found out this afternoon when we talked. She's got a rough ride ahead of her.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

No she wasn't

I'm thinking a little leaguer trying to get a hit off Nolan Ryan, okay?

Oh because if she would have known OM was married she would have respected the marital bond? Ummmmmm, dude, how did that work for YOUR marriage?

Clearly she had lots of respect for marriage

OM plays little league?

bigkahuna:

You have a point there. But if she knew he was married, he would have been a much less sympathetic figure and it might have given her pause. Again, maybe not I must admit. But it would certainly have changed the dynamic of things. How much, we'll never know.

I think she'd have been a lot more suspicious of his intentions and it never would have drifted into that territory in the first place.

Wishful thinking? Perhaps.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Wishful thinking???

HELL YES

Do they allow you to have a driver's license? What with being blind and all!

All evidence to the contrary; I'm not just being an [censored] but the way you are thinking isn't going to help you.

bigkahuna:

All evidence to the contrary; I'm not just being an [censored]

Could have fooled me. Dude, how about a little less sarcasm and a little more information. I'm really not in the mood for this. And you have no idea what's going on here right now. You have partial information, okay?

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ahead,

People cheat because they choose to lie. Lie to themselves and to those they love.

People cheat because they have weak boundaries. They allow a 3rd party to intrude on their marriage.

People cheat because they are selfish. They do what feels good at the moment without care and consideration of how their actions will affect others.

Understanding these reasons will protect your marriage and your WW.



People cheat because they are tricked or trapped.

Believing this is a reason will most definitely harm your marriage.


[b]No one wants to believe that their spouse cheated on them of their own free will ... but they did ![/b]

Aheadofcurve,

I am always in favor disclosure to anyone and everyone that can assist in the ending of an A. You have uncovered interesting information via disclosure to the OMW and you can use this information. It is important for your WW to know because then she will know that OM was lying to her. (The number of past As the OW had in our sych made my H realize that he was not near as special to OW as he thought he was).

However, I don't think this should be too big of a focus right now. As pointed out, your WW DECIDED to engage in an A for selfish reasons. Also, there is potential that OM will now contact WW looking to spin the information that has come out. If I remember reading your thread correctly, there has been NC for some weeks now. If so, you may want to talk to WW as soon as practical so she can avoid contact with OM.

Have you gotten as far as extraordinary precautions yet? If he tries to contact her, will she tell you? In my sych, everytime I compared info with OWH, it would generate a contact from the OW. It was SO frustrating because for three months, EVERY time OW wanted to talk to FWH, he said yes, rationalizing that it was to avoid a confrontation.

I am not sure if this helps. Be sure to keep your eyes and ears open.

AM

AHOC

WW's have an affair with married men all the time.

Marriage status of the OM has never stopped them from getting WW's to sleep with them.

Your WW is knocked for a loop and is now wobbly on her legs because she is faced with the fact that she gave her heart and body to a man that lied with only one goal. To get in her pants.

She is upset that she had to find out that the OM was just using her as a sex toy.

At this point in her fog she is not upset for being a WW. Only in her choice of OM.

In her fog your WW is still justifying her affair. She is unhappy that she got caught.

Vittoria:

Your post is correct in its entirety. All three reasons you stated are true and unassailable.

The tricked/trapped one.... she was lied to by a champion liar. I even believed what he had set the two times we met before the mess began.

I am willing to cut her a break to some degree because of that. That's what I mean. And I will protect her from whatever mud gets tossed her way from the OM. That falls under the catagory of "Nobody beats up my brother except me." The WW and I will deal with the things that need to be dealt with -- after I get done with the OM.

armymama:

I'm aware that she may be contacted by the OM. It's possible it's happened already. After sleeping on it last night (a whole two hours -- today's gonna be rough) I've decided that I better talk to her about it tonight and not wait until Saturday.

I'm going to have to get everything out in the open -- all the facts she has yet to reveal. I may be acting as defense counsel for her and prosecutor for him. Gotta know what the deal is so I don't get blindsided.

He's obviously a champion liar, and I need to have my ducks in a row. No matter how this turns out for the M, she's still the mother of my children and I feel the need to protect her as much as I can, not from the consequences of her folly, but other things that may arise.

However, if she lies to me from here on out, all bets are off.

Ears and eyes wide open. Count on it.

This is going to be an interesting week, dontcha think?


----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

TheRoad:

I have no doubt that she feels stupid and used.

She should. She was.

Her fog has been starting to lift ever so slightly the past week. This may finish the job of blowing away the smoke. (Of course, it might not, too. We'll see.) How I handle things could be the final nail in the coffin of the A.

Also, she didn't get caught. She confessed. I had no clue what was going on, and probably wouldn't have figured it out. If I had discovered it on my own, there would have been no attempt at reconciliation -- she'd be wearing two bruises, one size 10 1/2 EEEE, the other from the concrete of the curb.


----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ahead,

There will always be champion liars, manipulators and charmers around.
It will be impossible for you to protect your wife from these men. She may meet them at the grocery store, the hair salon or the post office.
It is unrealistic to think, IMHO, to believe that you can discipline these guys if they make manipulative advances to your wife.
You are blaming them when it will be your wife that is responsible for allowing these behaviours.

Yes, I blame the OW in my WH's affair but not to the extent that I will 'deal' with her.
One needs to deal with assuring NC, EP's and R.
One also needs to accept that our M's were vulnerable for our spouse to enter into an affair. Only after this is accepted, can we fix ourselves and our M.

It is difficult to look at ourselves, our WS's and our M and realize that were weaknesses, all of which contributed to the A. Outside forces are not the problem.

Good luck to you

Aheadofcurve,

I think you are doing all the right things.

Just one caution at this point. Don't expect all the details to come pouring out right now. Your WW may hold back quite a bit at this point or be evasive or in my case my WH still lied quite a bit. It was not until we really worked through the need for openess and honesty and he felt safe enough with my reactions for the entire truth to come pouring out.

Yup, a very interesting week. Stay calm like you have been and hang on tight for the bumps and dips. I am really routing for you.

AM

Vittoria:

Yes, the confidence men will always be there. Now she knows it too, and she knows her own personal weaknesses. She should know what she has to do, and what behaviors to avoid, to keep things from happening again.

I talk about "dealing" with her in the sense that right now there's an outside threat on top of handing the A. That takes first priority, because it's immediate. As for issues of the M, I have been dealing with my own weaknesses and LB's. In fact, she's told me she's amazed at the difference. I know what I was doing wrong, and it won't be happening anymore. Ever.

I left the gate open. In fact, I left the gate wide open. That's my fault. Her fault was the fact she chose to go through that gate. Steps taken to fix these have been dealt with in earlier posts, and those efforts are ongoing, and permanent. I just haven't mentioned them lately because they're old news.

armymama:

At this point, truths need to be told, not for my sake, but for hers. She's going to be under attack from the OM while he tries to cover his sorry butt. In fact, the attacks were already underway, preemptive strikes if you will for the entire length of the A. I won't be able to help her if she doesn't come clean. I have to be able to set the record straight. Remember, he'll deny everything, while she has confessed -- and there are witnesses that will back her up.

And my reputation for honesty will help her in this. I have credibility that could well trump anything the OM says.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

AOTC,

Understand that no one here wants to see you get run over by a mac truck. All BSs here have LIVED this and know just how whacked out a WS is and how desperate they get to try and downplay everything so they don't look like THAT much of a pathetic, low-life. Barely two weeks post D-day you were giving your WW a banner with an F on it. Considering she had just asked OM if he was willing to fight for her and she still continued trying to contact him, I'm not sure why you are so quick to give her that F. Wishful thinking? I think so. All BSs want to think their WS are being truthful after Dday and "get it." All of us want that.

Waywards will swear on a stack of bibles, their children heads, their mother's grave and anything else you would think one would find sacred, all the while lying their butts off. Some lie more than others but 99.99% all lie to some degree. The following thread is that of a BH who was very proactive and put a stop to his WW's affair pronto...exposed like a champ, dealt with the continued lying that he'd been warned was coming, and a polygraph. Just the idea of the polygraph had his WW revealing more than she had already sworn up and down to.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2166313&fpart=1

You say if WW lies to you one more time that all bets are off. I do hope she is honest with you AOTC, I do. But experience tells me otherwise. We have all thought the same as you at one time or another...just one more lie and I'm done and then BAM!

black raven:

Actually the F went up there briefly two weeks after NC was established. I took it down almost immediately because I realized it was too early in the game to call it a win.

The NC has been strong, and verifiable, and she's been doing everything I've requested her to do as far as conduct goes. She's still a little foggy, but I think she's less foggy than most at this early stage of NC.

We did the EN questionnaires, and both of us have paid extra attention to taking care of things. We both know that it's going to be a rough ride, and we're trying to ease the pain as much as possible.

Now some of that may come from the fact that, as far as I can tell, the OM dropped her like a hot potato as soon as she confessed to me about the A. Remember, she told me -- I didn't discover anything. I didn't do an immediate exposure because, quite frankly, I thought it would have driven her to him. I also thought he was divorced and assumed there wasn't anyone on his end to expose to. I won't go over that -- previous posts explain that.

I did an exposure to the OMW yesterday, my first opportunity since I discovered that he might not actually be divorced. I'm waiting on a call back from her right now to briefly discuss some information I've passed along to her.

He's gonna spin spin spin, and I want her version of things first. I have 95% of the information anyway, including things she doesn't know I know. I'm looking for little tidbits that can blow up his B.S., like where did she park her car when she was over there, etc.

This dude will lie like a trouper, and I want to have my ducks in a row. The OMW deserves to get some truth from this sorry sack. Besides, I've been wallowing in my own pain for so long, helping someone else out would be a nice change of pace.

Also, my WW and I have been doing so well this month, other than a couple of minor setbacks, that I'm encouraged that she'll 'fess up the few things left.

Yeah, yeah, a guy can dream, right?

But if she truly understands what's on the line in this stage of things, she will come clean on some lingering things, if nothing else, to confirm she's not a nutcase.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

The past two hours have been amazing. I cleared the decks at work so I could meet the WW at home to tell her about my call to the OMW yesterday. She's been smiling and happy the past day and a half, and I hated to tell her that I was about to ruin her day.

We went in the bedroom, closed the door, and I proceeded to tell her about the substance of the phone call. I told her the OM was indeed married, and on many of the phone calls she made to him in the evening where they'd talk about mundane things like mutual acquaintances, he was sitting on the couch while the OMW listened in on the OM's end of the conversation.

He would show her text messages that were sent, saying that she on anti-depressants and was obsessive about him and he was just trying to make her feel better.

When she would send racy late night texts, the OM would show the OMW and say that he's just going to play along with her.

Basically he was hiding her in plain sight and characterizing her as a loon.

All the WW did was sit on the edge of the bed and start shaking her head back and forth slowly, like she couldn't believe it, but that she could also believe it. I could see her eyes cloud with first anger, then disgust.

All the things her best friend had been saying all along throughout the A about what a jerk and liar the OM was started sinking in. I literally saw the fog lift. Amazing.

I told her I would need some information from her to butress a challenge to the crap the OM was sure to be spewing to the OMW. She asked me what harm he could do to her, and my response really revealed something to me about myself. I was worried about the WW being painted as a nutcase. I was actually worried about that, and angry that this SOB had the stones to hurt her like that. I still don't quite comprehend my mindset, but there you go.

Her response was that during the A, she WAS a nutcase. The tone of her voice was tinged with embarassment and sadness, and much more convincing than tears would have been.

Then I told her about a late night phone call to her best friend, where I was trying to get info such as the singles website where he'd posted a profile in November, the name of the girlfriend everyone thought he was living with in the spring of '07, and any other actual evidence that he was sleeping around.

Her best friend didn't know the name of the putative GF, and didn't quite get me the info I needed about the website. However, she told me that on that site if a profile is viewed, a contact address is given to the person viewed. This schmuck sent her an e-mail expressing interest. She told me she was disgusted with that fact.

That surprised the WW, since her friend never told her about that, presumably to spare her feelings. At that time, we were laying on the bed next to each other, and I started laughing, saying I knew how she felt. The WW looked at me and said "I'm not talking to you anymore," turned her head, and started laughing herself. She looked at my grin and told me to just shut up.

That's when she told me that there were things that she had yet to tell me, and that Saturday would be the day -- the day we'd originally set aside in the first place two weeks ago.

She also said, since I came clean, she would too. It turns out she'd been texting him through another friend the week before. She wanted to meet with him to talk about things. She said she never did it. Then she said she got a text from him around noon yesterday through that friend that he wanted her to call him. That would have been about two hours before my hour-long phone call with the OMW. Wonder what he wanted to talk about? She never called him back, but she saved the text message, and will keep it at my request. Comprendez vous evidence, anyone?

She told me she feels stupid for allowing herself to be played, and she apologized to me for what she did to me, and for embarassing me with all this. This was said dry-eyed, in a fashion (for her) so much more convincingly and sincerly than if it had been accompanied by tears.

I feel truly at peace for the first time since D-day back in November. I know Saturday's final talk will be uncomfortable, but I know that she's out of the fog, and back with me 100%. We'll get through that last bit, and continue rebuilding our M.

I know there will be ups and downs to come, but I think I can say that we're in recovery, and in recovery in a big way.

NOW I can change the signature I'm using with complete confidence.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/11/08

A good start to what could be a great '09.

AHOC, I want to urge caution once again. Your wife has told you numerous times that her affair was done only for you to discover that it was, in fact, NOT. You thought it was over on Jan 1 and all the while she was secretly contacting him through this friend.

Recovery won't start until it is really over and she is through withdrawal. So far, that has not happened. All you have right now are more promises... You have had that numerous times.

Who is this so called "friend?" This enemy of your marriage?

I forsee foggy conditions continuing for 6 months.

Saturday's FINAL talk?????

Unless of course you mean Saturday in December next year?


It's a rollercoaster. Your expectations are setting you up for a huge fall. You may well be in recovery but you have no idea what is ahead of you.


We'll see.

Yet she is a FWW...

Is that BK and Mel? I can barely see through all this fog.

Yes - NC is still not in place. Good Grief.

Anytime you see this in the middle of withdrawls allof a sudden - it only can mean there has been contact.

MelodyLane:

That friend has some issues, to say the least. I'm still working through that, but I think the withdrawl has happened. She told me today that this past week when she tries to picture him in her head, it's my face that she sees. Maybe I'm a little too giddy right now, but the A is done.

bigkahuna:

Dude, get your AMS seal checked. Your forecast doesn't compute. I know we'll still have some rough times, but today we turned a corner. Stay skeptical. Whatever. And if you want me to take anything you say seriously, don't use that stupid looking smiley. Talk like an adult, okay?

black raven:

I saw the look on her face. And I saw the look of final comprehension. She gets it. She told me he'd made some slips in conversation a couple of times during the 16 months, but she was so deep in whatever that didn't pay any attention. Now all the pieces have fallen in place for her, and she's embarrassed, mad, and sorry for what she's done.

----

Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/11/08

A good start to what could be a great '09.

rwinger:

Actually, I know where the big smile came from. And the contact that made her smile wasn't from him. Trust me on that one.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/11/08

A good start to what could be a great '09.

Ahead,

This website deals largely with infidelity. Have you checked the membership count lately ?

If this 'process' was this easy this website wouldn't even exist !

You are clearly someone who thinks very 'black & white', you need to bring some gray into your wardrobe or you won't be ready for the 2009 spring line.

[quote=AheadOfTheCurve

, don't use that stupid looking smiley. Talk like an adult, okay?


[/quote]

Hey don't knock the smiley's

AHOC, my friend, your forecast does not compute. You have been very wrong in the past and you are wrong now. Your W has been in contact the WHOLE TIME with the OM so she can't possibly be in withdrawal.

Nothing has happened here except some MORE empty talk from your wife. Her actions say otherwise. You were similarly convinced on january 1st and you were wrong then. As of yesterday she was still in contact with the OM. Until that ends, AS DEMONSTRATED BY ACTION - NOT TALK - you are not in recovery. Talk is MEANINGLESS with a wayward.

Please continue to watch your back and be realistic about what you are dealing with here.

Being delusional is OK but it's not helpful when you are an [censored] along with it.

Your wife was in contact with her affair partner yesterday dude. She hasn't even started withdrawal yet.

I'm amazed you are posting here at all and haven't started your own web site and infidelity recovery forum seeing as you obviously know EVERYTHING and are blowing off everyone who is actually trying to help you.

Delusional and arrogance is not a good mix. Good luck.

Please stop, AHOC. The affair is not done. She was in contact as recently as YESTERDAY. You thought it was done on January 1st, remember? You told us this back on 1-15:


She was still in touch with the OM the whole time.

Is this the same friend who was acting as the go between between the OM and your wife:


AHOC, you have so far been wrong on every count. Do you realize this?

AOTC,

If you want to believe everything your WW says, expose your strategy to her so she can tell you whatever you want to hear, and protect her from the boogey OM, more power to you.

You are more fogged out than WW and this sentence says it all to me.


Good luck to you.

Okay, I just got back from dinner with my FWW, so I have to play some catch-up. So far I'm getting beaten up pretty badly. I expected some of this, but many of the criticisms come from misreading what I wrote, and flipping identities of different individuals. What I'm going to do is assume the problem is with what I wrote, that I didn't express myself plainly. Here goes.

bigkahuna:

My problem is with those ROFL smileys. I find the sarcasm rather insulting. Why not ask what gives me all this hope? You might be surprised, seriously. I might actually have some concrete evidence. I was just handing back sarcasm for sarcasm, so cool it, okay?

Yeah she was texting him through one of her friends (who I am not happy with, and wasn't before) and that was a break in NC. But she also told me about it today without prompting and would have shown the actual texts to me if her phone hadn't died this afternoon. And before you jump to conclusions, the phone was doused with champagne on New Year's Eve. It's been going bye-bye for three weeks. I'm shocked it lasted as long as it did. When she gets a new phone this weekend, the SIM card will have the text messages on there.

black raven:

Cool your jets on the fog comment. I'll have a more detailed explanation for my optimism shortly.

Vittoria:

Same as to black raven. There's a real reason for my attitude.

Melody Lane:

She was in contact the middle of last week, and the impetus came from my discovery that the OM might not be divorced, something I heard him claim six months before any hint of an A started. He tried to contact her yesterday, after he found out the OMW was going to call me and talk to me. She did not call him back. That action says something, doesn't it? And how about the fact that she's happy to show me all the text messages she has in her phone (once we get the phone fixed, anyway)?

bigkahuna:

Your post is next. Read what I wrote above, read your post, and check a mirror really quick-like. You're jumping to conclusions after misreading what I wrote. Please, turn down the rhetoric. We're all in the same boat more or less, and trying to help each other. Getting nasty does no one any service.

Melody Lane:

She did have some contact with him after the first of the year, which disappoints me. But after Sunday's talk it was clear she was still foggy. But her attempts to contact him a couple of days later showed less fog. She wanted to know about the divorce issue. And the idiot friend who was helping her was NOT her best friend, who I guarantee would have told her to cut it out.

Melody, you either misread what I wrote, or I expressed it poorly. Who was wrong is open to interpretation.

black raven:

When I heard the OMW's description of how my FWW was represented in the OM's patter over the past 18 months, I recognized immediately what was going on. He was setting himself up for the "Fatal Attraction" defense. NOT ON MY WATCH! This guy was clearly a serial cheater with a good line of BS. I'd like to bust his chops by exposing him to the OMW. Isn't that what works best?

========

Now for the issue at hand. Please read carefully. Many of you missed it the first time, possibly through poor communication on my part.

When I described my phone conversation with the OMW to her, it was like watching a vault door open. You could almost hear the clicks as the facts finally penetrated her fogged mind.

First tumbril: The talk on Sunday, when she was informed that there was a strong likelihood that he was actually still married.

Second tumbril: The confirmation of that fact after I spoke to the OMW.

Third tumbril: Being told that the OMW knew who she was, and from the OM's description, assumed she was delusional and off her meds, obsessing over her hubby.

Fourth tumbril: Her best friend's comments over 18 months, telling her that his story didn't seem right, that he was a jerk and probably a liar, something she didn't want to consider because of the fog of the A.

Fifth tumbril: Remembered bits of conversation over that time that she'd discounted, bits where he slipped and referred to "our house" and "my wife", bits she didn't want to process due to excess fog warning.

Sixth tumbril: Her pride in her reputation as a BS detector. The woman is the best I've ever seen at spotting liars. More than once I was burned by people because I didn't listen to her. And the detection process begins on the OM.

Seventh tumbril: I'm still standing right there, telling her all these things once again, and telling her I have her back if things get ugly when the OM starts spinning what happened to get his sorry butt out of trouble and make her look like a psycho, which she most definitely is not.

Watching her shake her head slowly as I tell her things, and watching her process all the information she had but refused to consider was really something. You could see everything fall into place for her, realizing she had been played and made to look like a fool. And nothing is worse than realizing you've been made to look like a fool. Nothing.

The fog is gone, and she sees that POS for what he is. There is zero doubt in my mind. The past few days have been good for her and we've been taking joy in being around each other. I've been Plan A-ing her to the limit practically since d-day, and we've been making those love bank deposits almost every day.

Now is the payoff. Any comments about missing him means her aim is off and she needs to resight the weapon. He made her look like a fool, and she knows it.

And she knows I'm still there for her.

I know we're still in for some ups and downs. We're going to have the lay-it-all-on-the-table talk on Saturday when we both have the day off and our DS23 is out of town job hunting and we have the house to ourselves.

I know she'll tell me everything after she complained about her best friend telling me about the singles website and the fact that she viewed the OM's profile, and he, without knowing who she was, sent her an e-mail expressing interest. The friend didn't tell her, and she said she didn't care if it hurt her, she just wanted all of the truth. And I laughed, and she realized I need the same thing. And she realized WHY I need the same thing.

No, it's not pretty. And it's pretty complicated. But if you look at all the pieces objectively, I'm not just spinning my wheels. This looks like a major breakthrough, one that could get us over the hump into full recovery mode after several stops and starts.

Does that make it any clearer?

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/11/08

A good start to what could be a great '09.

Man we aren't even in the same OCEAN - I have serious doubts we are even on the same planet.

I've been there, done that. Fully recovered my marriage. I don't need your help. You are delusional and I think you and reality need to get together and settle your differences.

ok AHOC, no one has been misreading what you wrote. The only unclear person I see on this thread is you. Rather, you have been misreading your wife because you choose to focus on her WORDS, rather than her ACTIONS. You misread your wife's friend and wrongly believed she could be trusted. She could not.

For example, you told us 2 weeks ago the affair was "all done" and we told you this was UNLIKELY. We were right. The affair is NOT OVER:

your words today:


Your wife has been in contact ALL THIS TIME by your own admission.

Now, I am not saying this to rub your nose in it, but only to point out that your trust and overconfidence has not served you well, my friend.

Fortunately, you have done some very effective things, such as calling the OMW and informing her of the affair. That has - PERHAPS - made a huge blow to the affair. There is something very OFF here, though, since his wife has gone along with this.

And hopefully you can see now that this "friend" is not to be trusted. She is an ENEMY to you, your wife and your marriage for acting as a conduit between the lovers. If she were a friend, she would have put a stop to it and called you. So, I would suggest doing your best to get her out of both your lives. She is TOXIC to your marriage and will impede any possible hope of recovery by helping your wife be a BAD PERSON.

We hope that you are more clear now about the veracity of your wife and will go by her ACTIONS, never her words. As you have learned the hard way, talk is CHEAP with a wayward. It is meaningless.

bigkahuna:

Being delusional is OK but it's not helpful when you are an [censored] along with it.

Look, you started the sarcasm. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Your wife was in contact with her affair partner yesterday dude. She hasn't even started withdrawal yet.

She wasn't in contact with him yesterday. She had a chance, and turned it down. REREAD WHAT I WROTE AND GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

I'm amazed you are posting here at all and haven't started your own web site and infidelity recovery forum seeing as you obviously know EVERYTHING and are blowing off everyone who is actually trying to help you.

I don't know everything. I just know what I saw. I was there. I know that look in her eyes. I'm not pretending to be an expert. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Delusional and arrogance is not a good mix. Good luck.

I'll just let that one alone. You make the call. But I will take the good luck wish as sincere. Thank you. I have a feeling I'll need it. Everyone on this board needs it, by definition.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: FWW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/11/08

A good start to what could be a great '09.

Were you reading body language again? This sounds very much like what you told us back on January 15th when you were CERTAIN it was all over by reading her body language. You were wrong then.





here

AHOC, we are not trying to be mean to you, but it is disturbing to see you make the same mistakes over and over again. My greatest fear for you is that it will lull you into a state of complacency. Your wife has demonstrated to you several times that your trust is very unwarranted.

AHOC, she has been in contact almost the entire time. You told us this. And I seriously doubt she turned anything down since it was SHE who intiated contact, not that that makes any difference. The point is that she has been in contact the whole time. And you were very sure it was over back on January 1st.

Screaming at BigK is not going to change that.


Well, you were wrong back on January 1st about her body language and I bet you thought you knew the look in her eye there too:


It doesnt seem that this has served you well.

AOTC I really do sincerely wish you good luck.

You might want to stop and consider that we really do know what we are talking about.

We'd really like to help you but you are dismissing everything anyone posts to you. You are shooting at the helpcopters and telling us that the reason we don't understand is because you haven't expressed yourself clearly enough. But actually, we see perfectly.

You are the least experienced person on this thread and cannot see clearly. We would love to save you some anguish if you would only listen.

bigkahuna:

Thanks for your last post. Please don't indulge in sarcasm. I'm really not in the mood for that. You should know that on a rollercoaster ride, the person with the sarcasm is most likely the one that catches it when the rider loses his lunch, okay?

I'm happy and anxious to listen to what those with more experience have to say. But remember that style counts, too. And when things are dicey like this, style counts more than ever.

Given that, I get the point of the last two posts. I am a man of great passions, and I tend to get a little over-enthusiastic about things at times. I do my best to guard against that, but it's been so damned tough the last three months given major joint replacment surgery and then the 2x4 upside the head in a two-week stretch.

I get the point, I promise you. I didn't think any of her friends would help her do a head fake around me.

But being told that the OM was doing the "Fatal Attraction" thing really hit her hard. Now that you phrase it the way you do, I'm going to really re-examine things. I think she sees him for what he is finally, but you're correct. I could be mis-reading things.

I used to like rollercoasters.

Now, not so much.

AHOC,
My first and possibly last post to you about your sitch.

Here are what I have had to finally come to grips with, as will you in the not to distant future.


WW's always " affair down as evidenced by insightful writings and books by Dr Frank Pittman. Look them up.
" good girl in a good M tosses aside good H for a wild ride with the bad boy

Seems to me, your WW decided to take the bad ride with OM

Next point is, your WW could not have cared less about the marital status of OM, as mine did not either. It takes two to tango, period!!!

It was never about M status, as your WW did not care about her own M status. Why would she place emphasis on that, if she did the deed while she was M'd to you?


PREDATOR: Yup, I latched onto that notion too for a long while. My poor naieve W simply didn't know she was being player by a pro. Bulls888t!!!!!!

They didn't care!!! They wanted the bad boy!!

Through years of experience here, I am warning you that if you buy into the fact that your your WW was played here, you will lose the significance that your WW actively played into the same game, and now tries to absolve herself from any wrongdoing. Don't buy into this BS.She knows what she did and is trying to downplay her guilt in this whole matter.

Recent contact with her OM only accentuatates that she is still not commited to R and is only waiting for OM to make the next move.

Unfortunately, you are not ahead of the curve, but rather, in the same rollarcoater as the rest of us. You are simply being deceived by a liar.

You will come to see this in time, as most of us had to see it.

All Blessings,
Jerry

shinethrough:

Been a long night with a lot of long thoughts. As I said in my last post, I run on my emotions all too often, and I'm starting to see I was a little too optimistic after yesterday afternoon.

Thanks to those who pointed it out to me. Just a reminder -- be a little more diplomatic about it, okay? The tone almost caused me to disregard everything.

Your point of it taking two to tango is absolutely correct. I just keep having this feeling that if she knew the OM's actual marital status before she lost her freakin' mind in the spring of '07 he never would have gotten close enough to her in the first place.

On the other hand, she might have gotten into an A with someone who wasn't obviously a POS, and that would have been ten times worse.

Now that this guy's true character has been exposed to the point that even she can't deny it any more, chances of a real R are improved. That's if I decide to stick around after this weekend.

I'd told her that if she went around my back like she did, that I was done and that I would walk away because that would destroy the last little bit of trust I had.

I have to do some deep thinking on this one. Driving home from work last night, I realized that she's promised NC and broken it eight times now since mid-November. Will I play ball one last time? If so, it's the ninth inning, and one more strikeout and it's game over.

The question is -- has the game changed enough with the revelation of the "Fatal Attraction" strategy by that POS? Did it really get to her, and does she really see what she's done? If so, walking away would be a mistake. But if she's just mad about it, and not truly remorseful for her actions and the harm they've wreaked, I have no other choice than to throw in the towel.

I keep thinking that the blinders have to come off at some time. But have they?

I posted on Mark1952's music thread a few days ago about my favorite song and how it just sums things up. It's an old song by the The Who called "Bargain."

I'd gladly lose me to find you
I'd gladly give up all I got
To catch you I'm gonna run and never stop
I'd pay any price just to win you
Surrender my good life for bad
To find you I'm gonna drown an unsung man

I'd call that a bargain
The best I ever had

Ain't looking like a bargain right now. But the promise still seems to be there. I just hope I'm not kidding myself.

I do know that I will have to make a decision on what to do this weekend. This is gonna really, really suck.

ADDENDUM:

I have one request of the vets on this board. We've done the EN questionnaire, and I've been following the precepts of Dr. Harley for the most part, but she hasn't been active on this website. Should I get her to read the two threads I've been running on here? Would that help her comprehend what's been going on?

My 46 posts so far are as close to a diary of my mental state as anything. Do you think her actually reading 'em from start to finish, along with the responses of the MB community, would do any good?

Feedback desperately desired!!!

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08?
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/11/08

No. Because until her affair is really over, as demonstrated by some long term ACTION, she won't comprehend anything. She will just learn your tactics so she can fool you better next time. Then you would lose this place as a resource.


Suggestion: please toughen up a bit and pay more attention to what is said rather than how nice it is said. You are the only one who would have suffered if you had disregarded good advice only because it wasn't said nicely enough. Folks really are trying to help you and were only trying to get your attention. It seems to have worked.

I was a little too optimistic yesterday afternoon.


It's common to be optimistic if you believe the fog lifts this easy.
Fog lingers, different degree for different day. BTW, convincing your WW to the OM's true colours will not lift the fog.
The tone almost caused me to disregard everything.


The tone should cause you to re-examine your thinking. It is not the tone you dislike, but the thoughts behind the words.
I just keep having this feeling that if she knew the OM actual marital status........


The only requirement to be the OM/OW, is to be of the human species.
You still don't get this one, go back re-read last few pages of posts.

one more strike out and it's game over


There will be many strike outs. This is the way it goes. I suggest you stop making these threats to your WW because you do not want to follow thru with them at this point. Do not make any decision to end the M now, your mindset is too emotional. Right now think 'I can save this marriage step by step'

should I get her to read the two threads on, will she comprehend what is going on


No, she won't get it b/c SHE IS STILL IN THE FOG. I used to think the same thing so I know where you are coming from. I am sure the vets will say the same thing.

**edit**

AOTC,

I understand that you want to be in recovery more than anything. What BS who wants to save their marriage wouldn't? But like my dad used to say: "Why don't you "want" in one hand, piss in the other, and see which one fills up first?"

Your wife was in contact with OM last week? Then you are not in recovery. Plain and simple. It is not up for debate, it does not matter if we have all the facts, and wishful thinking will not change things. You are not in recovery. Period.

I hope that you eventually are.

You also need to scrap the notion that she was played by some "expert liar". Please. The fool was allegedly staying in a trailer in "his ex's front yard"? I doubt he could swindle an extra order of fries from a teen running the drive thru at McDonald's.

Yes, he lied. But your wife KNEW he was lying and liked it. What type of "bad boy" goes around being honest?

She was not tricked. She was not trapped. She was having her fantasy fulfilled. Those looks of horror and disgust when you "reveal" things to her about OM? They could be caused by several things, but I seriously doubt they are caused by finding out that OM was lying to her. Unless she is stupid, she already knew he was. Don't think for a second that she wasn't lying to him, too...you two never have sex, you have a penis like a skin tag, etc.

Your wife was every bit the "playa" that OM was. You also need to start considering that maybe this particular Prince Charming wasn't the only one who managed to get into your wife's pants. Obviously, she's not particularly choosy.


To sum up:

You are not in recovery no matter how much you'd like to be.

OM is not some expert liar or con artist.

Your wife was not tricked, trapped, or taken advantage of.

At least you'd better hope she wasn't, because if she's really that stupid, there's no hope for your marriage.

AOTC,

First, sorry you have become a member of the club no one wants to belong to. I haven't read your entire thread, but I wanted to point out a couple of things for you. You should listen to EVERYTHING BK and MEL tell you. They have seen hundreds of situations just like yours and have the script down pat. Your situation is not unique. The WS and the BS follow a very predictable script. Right now, you are still in the shock and denial phase of a BS.


I know BK and MEL can be a snarky bastidges, but that is the point of their posts. They are trying to provoke you to really think about what is going on and to snap you out of the BS fog you are in. Not unlike most of the other BSs when they arrive here at MB. Believe me, you could not get better advice than they have given you and you would be well served to listen to them.


I've been right where you are and BK is absolutely correct. For now, placing the blame on the OM is a reflex of sorts. It's protecting you from unleashing the underlying anger you have. The OM owed you nothing. Your WW is the one with whom you took vows. Let me ask you a question. If your WW's marital status didn't matter to her, what makes you so sure the OM's marital status would have mattered either?


Do not bring your WW here until the A is over and you have verifiable NC in place. Until then, her reading your thoughts and plans would only provide her with ways to better deceive you.

Want2Stay

My jets don't need cooling. The further details are more of the same and don't change my opinion. You are not ahead of the curve but refuse to see it.


Really? Others, myself included, have pointed out how you've been wrong about things thus far and you still stick your fingers in your ears. Everybody has misunderstood or is wrong except you? Again no one is trying to be right just for the sake of being right. All BSs know your pain and are willing to give advice to help YOU not be bulldozed by WW and hope to spare you from learning lessons that some of us have learned the hard way.


No.

Ahead,
Really, when you think about it, really think about, what do have to lose by opening your mind to the vets. You've not made great leaps forward to NC and recovery with your plan. A MB plan set out by these people can save your marriage, if you are willing. Precious time is being wasted in denial on your part.



Take care

You keep excusing her constant breaking of her promised NC's as her still being "Foggy". The Fog state feels good and they don't usually want to leave that state. Make sure your actions or inactions aren't allowing her to stay in the Foggy state.

So far their have been no consequences for her breaking NC. So whats the incentive to not keep breaking it?

Also she seems more interested in finding out why he broke up with her than repairing your marriage. You are just an afterthought. I don't know about you but I refuse to be someone's afterthought even my spouse's.

Where would she be if this guy didn't dump her or was truly divorced?? I think you know.

Thanks for all the feedback. I will follow the advice and not point out this thread to her. I getcha. No problem.

As for my problems with snark, I actually do snark for a living. I am a professional, and that's how I pay my bills. The snark I've been getting came across as mean spirited with a tinge of gloating, because what I tried didn't work. I know intellectually it wasn't meant that way, but intellect doesn't reign supreme all the time right now.

I am no longer a James Bond Martini. I was shaken, but now I'm stirred as well. Skip the snark. Right now, I need a lot of nice, 'cause there ain't a whole lot of nice going on and I have to keep a public happy-face going. It really, really sucks.

Flynn:

Yup, been making excuses for her. I don't feel particularly good right now. I'm seriously considering, as they say on the cop shows, lawyering up. I'm not a patient guy, and what supply I do have is about used up.

I used to like roller coasters. Not so much, anymore.

AHOC, we really are on your side, but if you want nice, you need to call your momma. We are here to help you save your marriage, not to have a tea party with you. I would implore you once again to pay close attention to the SUBSTANCE of the words and stop worrying about how "nice" the post is. "Nice" is not going to save your marriage. You have too much on the line right now to allow yourself to get distracted by nonsense.

Strap her asz to a polygraph then staple a GPS to her forehead!

No you don't. You choose to put up the facade that all is well on the home front. Not saying you have to wear your feelings on your sleeve for all the world to see but it sounds like you are really caught up in appearances. This may be part of the reason you want to ignore your WW's own stupidity, believe her lies, and not expose to family.

I can't imagine giving a rat's [censored] about appearances after d-day. What other people think was so unimportant that it wasn't even ON my list of priorities.

It's normal for NC to get broken a few times.

Boundaries have to be put into place to stop this from happening.

NC with toxic friends.

Verify NC every way you can. Key loggers, digital VAR in the home and her car. GPS in her car.

It's sometimes happens when a BH as you is to willing to believe a WW that only has been lying non stop to you before D day and after without proof.

There can be no trust without verification. Before affairs yes. After affairs no.

black raven / krazy71

The happy face is for at work, okay. Being happy is part of the job.

TheRoad:

We talked again today during her lunch hour. She told me she understands her promises are worthless, but she's willing to do whatever it takes to prove she's on the up and up.

Trust but verify is the phrase of the day.

And the roller coaster continues on.....

If I were you, I'd make you and your wife working the same shift a priority.

Regardless of the financial consequences, one of you needs to change shifts, or jobs if necessary. Immediately.

Krazy,

We've already discussed that. My shift is set in stone. I can't change it, and I can't change jobs. That's not an option.

Her job duties have changed. Her old position was eliminated starting Monday, and she's been shifted to another spot that will have her working shifts all over the place. But she won't be first shift all the time, and that's good enough.

I'm paranoid about what she's doing, and she has promised (yeah, yeah, I know) to PROVE that everything is good again. This means checking in on the phone, verifying everything.

I don't know how we'll work it, but we have the weekend off together (perfect timing) and we're going to talk things out.

She knows her promises are worthless, and she says she's willing to do whatever it takes to prove NC and the rest of it.

I'm trying to stay calm. I WILL stay alert.

You know, a thought just struck me as I walked back to my desk.

She knows one more mistake and I walk. It's over, I'm done.

Now it's her turn to Plan A ME. I think I can live with that scenario.

We'll find out if there is justice in this world.

There isn't.

You will find that out once you realize your wife is gaming you.

Polygraph her.

Yup. I agree with IAM.

The addiction practically guarantees she will slip up again. This is not a sprint it's a marathon on a rollercoaster not a slippery dip.

AOTC - too bad if you don't like my tone. I guarantee - even PROMISE you I will piss you off again. And your reaction to what I say is YOURS. It won't take one second off my life if you ignore me. YOU are the one that needs help here. YOU are NOT entitled to have anyone post to you - everyone posting is doing it out of their desire to help you. Shooting at the hellicopters will not behoove you I promise.

bigkahuna:

Your posts make sense, you have good things to say. And the post previous to this one was fine. I'm just asking for advice, not snark. Don't sugarcoat things -- just skip the snark, that's all I ask, okay?

Now, here's a question I'd like you to answer, along with all the other vets...

How can you tell when the fog has lifted, and the WS gets it? What are the signs, or if you're into poker, the tells that indicate that recovery is underway. I know there are probably a number of different ways....so everybody, please chime in.

Thanks for the help.

You can tell the fog has lifted when she is no longer foggy. You can tell she gets it...when her actions line up with her WORDS. ACTIONS, ACTIONS, ACTIONS, are all that count. Recovery is underway when the fog lifts after her withdrawal and when she begins a PLAN OF RECOVERY. The fog will lift and withdrawal will take place after several WEEKS of no contact. [no contact demonstrated by ACTIONS, not words]

A plan of recovery would include strong boundaries along with complete transparency to ensure that the conditions that made the affair possible no longer exist.

Nope. Not likely. Maybe you are too sensitive to be on a message board?


Total transparency in all she does - all passwords, etc. Being available 24/7 if you phone her. Accountability for her time.

Openness and honesty regarding all aspects of her affair.

No contact or attempted contact with OM for a minimum of 8 weeks.

A willingness and active participation in repairing the damage she caused to your marriage.

Her not blaming OM for her affair and not blaming you either in ANY WAY.

Attitude of whatever it takes for as long as it takes.

bigkahuna:

Total transparency in all she does - all passwords, etc. Being available 24/7 if you phone her. Accountability for her time.

Openness and honesty regarding all aspects of her affair.

No contact or attempted contact with OM for a minimum of 8 weeks.

A willingness and active participation in repairing the damage she caused to your marriage.

Her not blaming OM for her affair and not blaming you either in ANY WAY.

Attitude of whatever it takes for as long as it takes.

That's a checklist I will post on my mental refrigerator. That's pretty damned comprehensive. She was talking a good game this afternoon. If she keeps it up for two months with no letup and slips, okay.... Until then she's on double-secret probation.

Works.

Thanks a lot!

AHOC, a good sign of her sincerity will be her willingness to send the OM a no contact letter. Check this out:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Dr. Harley: My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

AOTC - she will slip up - I guarantee it.

Fog rolls in and out. It took 6 months before I was sure my wife really "got it" and she was a model FWW with no slips in any way.

Recovery SUCKS. It's HARD.

Just with the length of your wife's affair you can expect fog for some months - maybe even a year.

Ahead of curve: Give us an update, please...

It’s been a busy week at work, and I haven’t really had time to post.

We had one more long talk on Saturday, and while F?WW seemed to be worried about dropping another bomb on me, everything was pretty much a dud. Nothing really new, just a rehash of stuff I already found out about or was less dramatic than F?WW’d thought. Certainly nothing that disturbed me more than I already had been.

The A is dead, dead, dead. There are two factors that buttress my confidence in that fact. First, F?WW told me of two text messages F?WW sent to her go-between friend, one asking if the “friend” had heard from OM, and the second saying F?WW didn’t expect to hear from him ever again because “he’s married and the jerk got busted.” F?WW told me she’d love to contact him one more time to essentially read him the riot act, but I reminded her that with his characterization of her as “Fatal Attraction” material, it would just play into his hands. F?WW agreed with my assessment, and the matter hasn’t come up since.

Second, he dumped her to save his own hide. That POS is backpedalling harder than any NFL cornerback trying to cover Randy Moss. I managed to find a profile with picture that he had on a speed dating site through a Google search cache dated December 7, fittingly enough. He’s trying to save his sorry butt, so even if F?WW tried to break NC, he won’t answer or respond. OMW makes three times as much as he does, so getting 86’ed isn’t exactly in his best interests. It’s not exactly flattering, but it’s good enough for now and I’ll take every bit of good fortune that comes my way. If F?WW’s going through any kind of WD, it’s quiet and subtle. I think F?WW was slapped so hard in the face with a wet fish that maybe she had some sense knocked into her. Her actions indicate that, although I know there are ways around anything.

There is one worrisome development, but not from F?WW. I exposed to the OMW as soon as I found out she existed. Since our hour-long phone conversation, the OMW has not been in contact with me. I sent her some cell phone records to back up what I told her, and called her the next day and left a message on her work phone. No response. I waited a couple of days, and sent her a text message on her cell phone. Again, no response.

There are three scenarios that I see for this.

One, she’s bought into OM’s bushwah and doesn’t believe me. He’s obviously experienced in this kind of thing, so he hasn’t left much of a paper trail. Denial would be easier for her to deal with.

Two, she already knows he’s been playing around, as evidenced by OM’s ex-girlfriend of two years ago that everyone assumed he’d been living with. If that’s the case, she lied to me on the phone about there being no past indication of his present performance. F?WW says this has to be the case, because there’s no way she didn’t know about the xGF. The camper shell he claimed to live in was actually in the xGF’s yard at the time.

Three, she’s gathering evidence and will nail him with it when she has her ducks in a row. If that’s the case, why didn’t she call from her work phone? He can’t access records of that.
There’s a fourth, remote possibility. They might be ready to go after me with some sort of scam or charges. I’m vulnerable to that as someone very prominent in the community. F?WW mentioned that I’m more vulnerable than she is. But I don’t consider that likely.

For starters, I don’t think a harassment charge would be taken seriously. He’s eight years younger, five inches taller, and is ex-military. Who would believe a grey-headed old fart who had just undergone joint replacement surgery could do any damage to him? Of course, if they did something like this, it would hit the front page of the newspaper and wouldn’t go away until it was over. With my reputation, OM might get laughed out of town anyway, but it would leave a stench that could possibly cost me my job, innocence be damned. But like I said, that possibility is so remote I don’t even know why I’m worried about it. That is, other than the fact that paranoia has become a way of life for me lately.

F?WW signed up for MySpace today, and told me she wants to do a page with both of us together on it. All her co-workers are on MySpace, along with family members (my family does Facebook, FYI) so it’s logical. OM and OMW are also on MySpace, so I can see this as her version of giving him the finger, so to speak. I can live with that part of it, to be honest. I’d like to give him the whole fist, but for reasons listed in the previous paragraph, that’s not a good idea for any number of reasons.
I can’t see F?WW still harboring any kind of good feelings toward that piece of pond scum. She told me about a conversation they had last fall, where OM said that he could lie right to her face, and she’d never know. He then added “But I wouldn’t.” Right.

Of course, she could be doing that to me right now, but there are just so many indicators that it’s not the case. She lost her freakin’ mind about two years ago, and getting kicked in the head seems to have jarred things back into their proper order.

I hope, anyway.

All right, have at it. I’m wearing the cup I had from when I played baseball. I suspect I might need it.

INCOMING - Prepare asbestos undies

What the hell are you thinking. Your WIFE tries to innitiate contact with OM through "friend" and you see that as a GOOD SIGN that the affair is dead? Are you insane?

She's PINING for him man - wake up.


No she's not in withdrawal and NOT a FWW as evidenced by her ongoing attempts at contact. She clearly hasn't had ANY sense knocked into her.


Leave OM'sW alone. You told her about the affair - move on and don't worry.


Get her to un-sign up from myspace.


Indeed!

There needs to be NC with the toxic friend that was the go between for the affair.

The WW went fishing with an email to her to see if the OM was sniffing around for her. And incase he was to do the same this TF could pass these little tidbits on to each of them.

NC, means any means of finding about the OM and his life. So there can not be my space for you or your WW becaue OM is there.

AHOC, if an affair is "dead" that is demonstrated by DEATH. If there are still attempts at contact, then that means = NOT DEAD. When your wife stops trying to contact the OM, the affair will be DEAD. But until that happens, it ain't DEAD.

Setting up a page on myspace is a very bad idea. It gives her a new way to contact the OM and spy on him...........and stay triggered.

Just curious, why is the "friend" taking messages from the OM? What kind of "friend" is this exactly?

Mel,

This is the "friend" who acted as a go-between a couple of weeks ago before I found out about OMW, did the exposure to her, and found out about the OM's precautionary character assassination games in case the F?WW blew things up on him. Said "friend" is on the toxic list, and F?WW knows it. That's why F?WW told me about the texts she sent to the "friend" at first opportunty (the following morning) and why she sent them. She had no idea that I'd already read them off her cell phone, and gave me almost a verbatim quote of the text. Point to F?WW.

F?WW is dying to give the OM a hickory scalp massage. Funny thing, I understand what she wants to do -- and it would be epic. If I were an objective observer, I'd love to hear this conversation, because you just don't piss off an Irish/Italian girl, especially this one. Trust me, you just don't.

She feels humiliated. Not a bad thing from my perspective, of course -- she deserves to feel that way. After d-day, and the first attempt at setting up NC, I told her what kind of pond scum the OM is and she naturally didn't want to listen. Now she agrees with me.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Any type of contact would start the whole cycle over again, and I've managed to give her logical reasons not to do it.

F?WW is spending her energies right now trying to make things right. I can tell part of the problem for her is that it's impossible to prove a negative, and she's wracking her brain trying to figure out what to do. I'd love to have an answer to this myself.

In fact, this morning just before she left for work, she gave me a greeting card that was an abject apology for what happened, assuring me she loves me the way she did back when we first got married. F?WW knows bare words aren't enough. She's trying.

I'm still all over the place emotionally. When I'm around her, it's clear that she's doing all the things she's supposed to be doing, and none of the things she's not. But when we're not together, I start wondering what's going on. I'm finding it almost impossible to concentrate at work, and I can't sleep, and all those other good things.

She also quit smoking this weekend. The first time she quit, it lasted almost 15 years. She knows how much I hate her smoking, and I appreciate what she's trying to do. I know it isn't easy.

I'm going to kill the MySpace thing today. You and BK have just confirmed my initial reaction. Honestly, I think she wants to do it as an announcement to the world that we're fully together, but having even the slightest opportunity to open a door that needs to stay closed is too much of a risk to take.

More feedback, please.

AOTC,

What scares me here is that I see you justifying contact so long as she is honest about it...Does it really make it better if she tells you that she is actively betraying you? Me thinks not...Being "honest" about bad behavior doesn't change that it is BAD BEHAVIOR, capiche? What she is doing is still damaging you and your marriage...That MUST stop...Only when it stops can you begin recovery...

And really, this "hate" that she now has for the OM just keeps her passionate about him...Do you understand that even if she called him to "tell him off" that it would STILL be a FIX for her? Any contact is bad contact and is a threat to your marriage...

Also, do not allow yourself or her to justify anything she has done because she was somehow "duped"...No sir, she committed adultery WILLINGLY...Any "lies" told by a man willing to have an affair with a married woman were to be EXPECTED - Neither of you should be shocked by that...You get that, right?

Mrs. W

MW,

Does it really make it better if she tells you that she is actively betraying you? Me thinks not...Being "honest" about bad behavior doesn't change that it is BAD BEHAVIOR, capiche? What she is doing is still damaging you and your marriage...That MUST stop...Only when it stops can you begin recovery...

And really, this "hate" that she now has for the OM just keeps her passionate about him...Do you understand that even if she called him to "tell him off" that it would STILL be a FIX for her? Any contact is bad contact and is a threat to your marriage...

She didn't make contact, which is the point. Also, she discussed it with me before doing anything, and let me know exactly what she was thinking. No secrets, which is a huge step. She recognizes that making contact would be bad for what we're trying to do. And, yes I understand the fix part of things. I'm giving her several reasons not to do it, both emotional and logical. I'm not trying to fight fire with fire, but fight fire with water.

Also, do not allow yourself or her to justify anything she has done because she was somehow "duped"...No sir, she committed adultery WILLINGLY...Any "lies" told by a man willing to have an affair with a married woman were to be EXPECTED - Neither of you should be shocked by that...You get that, right?

Actually, she gets it, too. In our conversation on Saturday, she made it clear that she understands that exact point, which is even more important than ME understanding it. Small steps and all that. As for her buying his marital status lie, two years ago, before any of this crap started, he told me he was divorced and I believed it too, for what it's worth. He's a professional liar.

AOTC,

So long as WW is interested in contacting OM for any reason the A is not dead. Your WW reminds me of my OW. I'm telling you right now that if she calls OM to tell him off or give him the finger, the BW will be laughing her butt off at how pathetic WW is and OM doesn't have to say a word.

Leave OMW alone. She's probably kicking OM's butt and downgraded him from his trailer to a portapotty. If she wants to speak with you she will contact you.

AOTC...

She was FISHING for CONTACT! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!

What if the toxic friend had said, "Yes, OM called me and he is dying to talk to you!" ??? Wanna bet she would have called him? I'm a FWW, AOTC...I'm just pointing out to you what I know based on my experience in that g u t t e r...

Please tell me that you are continuing to snoop, AOTC...Do you have a digital voice activated recorder in her car? A keylogger on the computer? A GPS installed in her car? You sure should! INSPECT WHAT YOU EXPECT, AOTC!

Mrs. W

P.S. OM was a LIAR? An infidel tells LIES? Surely you jest! No way!!! Shocking!!! (NOT!) (Sorry AOTC, but when you keep stating that over and over, it's just kinda funny...Newsflash: ALL ADULTERERS LIE! We get it! )

Anyone remember which thread it was where the WW hated the OM and went to his house to 'give him a piece of her mind' and ended up giving him a different piece of her anatomy?

Absolutely zero contact is required.

Whaaaaaa? LOL Sounds like a gem. :twobyfour:

AHOC, it is a huge step, but it is a HUGE STEP backwards. You told us:


It is clear your wife is still trying to make contact here. That ain't a step forward, that is a step backward. Once again, you are ignoring her ACTIONS and going by her words. That practice has failed you in the past and it is failing you now.

A step forward would be for her to STOP trying make contact with him. It doesn't matter a ratsass if she is forthcoming about her attempted contacts, that does not erase the DAMAGE done by those attempts. The only thing that will suffice is complete and total NO CONTACT. And I don't mean NC that is successful because she couldn't reach him. I mean when she STOPS TRYING to contact him. THAT is no contact.

Your optimism is unwarranted, AHOC, and is leading you - AGAIN - down the wrong path.

Call this post "In beero veritas." After a couple of drinks with co-workers after a very long, complicated, frustrating day, it's time to spew just a little bit.

What's been driving me crazy the past three months is the fact that my gut instincts have been unerringly wrong. We're not talking 180 out of whack. It's more like a 540, where I do a complete spin and find myself totally disoriented.

Every time I start feeling good about where things are heading the F?WW does something incredibly unpredictable and stupid and sends things back to square one. Every time I think that she's done something unpredictable and stupid, it's turned out to be demonstrably innocent and sane. It's enough to drive a guy to drink. (Na zdrovie!)

There is no sane reason to believe that the A isn't over. The OM is backpedaling with all his might, since if he doesn't smooth things over, he really will wind up living in that camper trailer that he's claimed to live in. (Still can't believe she bought that line. SHE can't believe she bought that line. I can't believe I bought anything that SOB claimed two years ago before all this crap started.)

There's nothing for her to go back to. She claims she has no feelings left for that piece of dog crap. Considering the B.S. he spun to her, and to the OMW, that should be enough to cauterize anything that's left over from the A.

But that's logic, and logic hasn't worked too well the past three months.

Many of you wonder how I can believe that she can get past all this so quickly. Time to fill you in on something I haven't mentioned in these threads.

Been there, done that.

Twenty years ago, I had to go out of town on a business trip. It was going to be two more weeks of work after I got back before I could take a week's vacation. She decided to take the kids home to see her Mom, and wait for me to fly the 850 miles to join 'em. Bad move.

After two weeks of being alone in the apartment, I went out and got 'faced. And you can guess what happened. Yup. ONS. When I woke up the next morning, I scuttled back to the apartment, and didn't open the drapes for a week. I sat there in the dark and contemplated what a POS I was. I violated my vows for a quick piece. So what if I was drunk? I knew better, and did it anyway.

I kept it secret for two decades. Telling her would have served no purpose. Every time I started thinking how great I was, I'd have a flashback, and that took care of that pride thing. I vowed to take it to my grave before telling her. I would rather live with the solitary pain than do anything that would hurt her.

I built barriers that would match Indy or Talladega. We're talking solid concrete rebar. Never, ever, would I put myself in a position that would allow me to succumb to my demonstrable weakness of character. And I haven't, despite opportunities. I hate doing things that I would despise myself for later on.

About three years later, I'd gone out for a drink with a co-worker. We wound up at an all-night fast-food joint to down a couple of sliders. A hottie sat next to me, ordered some french fries, and dipped them in my ketchup. I set a land speed record, literally running out of said fast-food joint. I told my wife about the incident the next day, and she laughed. She thought it was funny. Naturally -- she didn't know the backstory. I sure as hell wasn't going to tell her!

(FYI, when I reminded her of the story last week, she still found it funny. That bothers me.)

Now do you understand why I'm so inclined to give the F?WW a break? I have no halo. Lost it a long time ago. I get it.

Doesn't mean I still don't want to vomit every time I think about what she did. There's a difference between a ONS and what she did. But that difference is like the guy who had the conversation with the woman that ends up -- "We've established what you are. We're just negotiating a price."

I confessed to her the day after d-day. She needed to know. But that's not why I told her. I told her because I didn't want her to feel like a total piece of crap. Mister Perfect did something just like it, so she shouldn't hate herself too much.

I want her back. I want the her that I married, not some meek little thing that feels guilty about everything. (Just the one thing.) I don't want some woman who is eaten up with sorrow. Just someone who knows what never to do again, and how to avoid having the opportunity to be weak.

Dammit, if I can do, she can too. This is a woman that quit smoking cold turkey 18 years ago, and did it without me noticing for six weeks. (Yeah, I'm an idiot. We already knew that.) She has more backbone than I do. She's demonstrated that.

Anyone can lose their f'ing mind. Everyone is entitled to one mistake.

I just want us to survive this. That's all. That's not too much to ask for, is it?

WOW

Ahead of curve,

I think it may be a mistake to project your feelings, reactions and plans onto your wife. I think a ONS is very different from your wife's A. You did not have an emotional involvement and reacted appropriately with horror at what you had done. She has been very emotionally involved, does not really have much remorse, and does not seem to be highly committed to the M at this point. Apples and oranges.

AM

Hey, BK, gimme something better than a WOW, okay? How about a reaction... please?

"I just want us to survive this. That's all. That's not too much to ask for, is it?"

No.

Correct me if I am wrong BK, but I would say his 'WOW' is from the fact that you have not learned anything from what has been said to you.

I read your very long post and thought just that.

Armymama had good points BTW.

Here's my 2 cents, not that you give a [censored]
Just because you had a ONS does not mean that you understand what your WW is in.
You don't give her a break, she does not need someone to give her break.
She needs the husband you promised to be, you know the one to protect her and guide her when she makes mistakes.
You are prolonging this whole thing by not listening to any advice being given, and you certainly are not helping your WW.

Bye

Vittoria:

What I meant by giving her a break is by not just calling it quits when she told me of the A. What my stupidity did was give me a little dose of humility.

And please keep giving advice. Please. I damn well know I need it, or else I wouldn't be here.

Okay then.

Start at the beginning of your thread and read only what others have posted. Ignore your own posts since they will only reinforce what you think.
Your thinking is what needs to be changed first before you can help your WW.

Does that make sense to you?

Vittoria:

Just did what you suggested. Yeah, I get it.

First....anyone have a recommendation on a keylogger? If there's a good freeware one that would help out a lot. Money's beyond tight right now.

I started looking at the BoostMobile phones two days ago and started pricing 'em and looking into what it will take to get that started as well.

And I've started looking into what it would take to do a poly. The cash will be a major issue, but since I can't sleep at night for more than four hours at a time, this is something I'll be doing sooner than later.

Gad, I just want to vomit.

Are you telling me that you had a ONS in THIS marriage and have never told your wife?

blazingtools.com is where I downloaded mine from. $40.00 US. Easy to use. Mac version available.

I know, explains a lot of fog on both sides.

A mixture of all that actually.

Your wife has just discovered you tore her heart out 20 years ago.

Just WOW.

I'll have to think some more on this.

Except to say, you should NOT expect your wife to have the same path as you had.

AHOC, what was your wife's reaction to the ONS when you told her?

I agree with the others that it is a mistake to judge her affair by yours. They are like night and day. Hers is an emotional entanglement and she is clearly addicted. Yours had none of those traits. Not to mention that you both have entirely different personalities.

Not to mention his WIFE has just found out the last 20 YEARS (20 friggin YEARS) was a sham and a LIE!!

AND His wife because of her very real guilt over her affair is POWERLESS to process HIS AFFAIR with him.

She's screwed whichever way she turns. (the cenaored word is what you would do with a ***driver)

oh yeah - I almost forgot! We found Mike_C2's fictional happily married couple complete with an undisclosed drunken ONS 20 years later. Not so happy are they. I really do wonder why!

I used Refog, you get a free trial, then $39. www.refog.com

Fortunately, or unfortunately, I busted my WW within 12 hours of the free trial. <rubs heart>


BTDT, got the mouthwash.

After a great deal of pondering, I've decided that with any poly I'd have to be ready to have two, or maybe cut a deal with the ploygrapher for a twofer.

If there is a fail, WW might just say "oh, it was the test!"

A double fail would be hard to get by, for either of us.

Be well, AOTC...

Put your story in your sig, you'll get better responses.

Having been in your position, I tried to spend a lot of time alone, just pondering and stewing, and kicked back 2 or 9 drinks.

I'm not saying it was the right thing, it is just what I did. :-)

Let's pick things up since the last time I posted. Plenty's happened since then.

MelodyLane #2208183 - 02/07/09 10:17 AM

Mel, you need to read posts better. Your advice is great, but this marked the second time you misread what I'd written. In fact, as in the other case, the answer to your question was in the following paragraph. This time, it was Ace that pointed that out. (Thanks, by the way, Ace.) Conclusion jumping hurts credibility.

MelodyLane #2208404 - 02/07/09 07:41 PM

When I told her, she had questions, most of which I could not answer due to the time factor. I can't remember a name, or a face. I deliberately did my best to block them out over the years. The fact I did it was enough. And you know what she did after that? She tried to make me feel less guilty about it; tried to make me feel better. Yes, we have different personalities, but maybe not as much as you'd think. She was trying to protect ME at the point. Go figure.

bigkahuna #2208402 - 02/07/09 07:34 PM

She didn't just find out. She found out three months ago.

bigkahuna #2208414 - 02/07/09 08:12 PM
bigkahuna #2208415 - 02/07/09 08:14 PM

A sham and a lie? Okay, whatever.

As for processing the ONS -- I've done that for 20 years. IN retrospect, the fact that it happened probably saved our marriage at this time. I have the humility to know that ANYONE, no matter how good a person they are inside, ANYONE can make a devastating mistake. Without this knowledge, I might have walked. But I knew better, and I've been working to save things. The fact that she knows I made that same mistake might keep her from hating herself. We can, and we will, learn from this and move on and create a better marriage. We know that we're both capable of mistakes and will be on guard to keep anything like this from happening again.

Now, you ask how I can know this with any certainty. The answer: we had another talk last night. She had been cranky since coming home from work, and I've been hyperaware of things, something you all know all too well from personal experience. In my case, I've been seeing things that aren't there.

Her job has changed, from working in a back office to being on her feet all day long, and she hasn't had time to get new shoes yet. She quit smoking a week ago. And I started reading things into her bad mood. Surprise.

We finally had a serious discussion around midnight. She wanted to know what it would take. She said she'd come completely clean, told me everything, wasn't doing anything wrong, and it felt like it just wasn't good enough. She had made no effort to contact him, and had no desire to do so ever again.

I asked her about her feelings for the OM. She said she had no feelings at all for him anymore after finding out what the OMW had been told. She said she didn't even know who he was after all that, and that she'd learned her lesson.

(My aside here. What OM is, very clearly, is a sociopath. He could give a damn about anyone else. And when sunlight hits fog, it clears. That's what's happened here. She's no dummy. This was her own 2 x 4 upside the head. To quote "Tommy Boy", that's gonna leave a mark.)

She added that there was now way OMW didn't know about any of his outside activities all these years, and that OMW lied to me about that part of it. The more I think about it, she's probably right. Why should the OMW tell me, a total stranger, anything? (MikeC2 found out about how much an a ally the other BS would be.) She thinks there's some strange dynamic in that household and we need to stay as far away from it as possible. No argument there.

She said when she thinks about him, she's going over what he'd told her, and marveling at how she missed all the clues about the real situation. I didn't tell her it was because she didn't want to know. She'll figure that out on her own, if she already hasn't, and my saying it would sound like rubbing it in.

Bottom line, she's been doing what she needs to do, and I've been leaning on her anyway. When you start getting what you want and need, it's time to start rewarding that behavior. The carrot never works if you keep beating 'em with the stick regardless.

I think recovery has begun, and it's going to be a long road. But at least this time it looks like it's for real. From here, a lot of this will be up to me, not her.

So sorry, AHOC, your posts are so unnecessarily long winded that one has to read a novel just to get to the punch line. Which is why I ASKED you about that comment. So when you say things like:


And then several chapters later, say you DID tell her after D-Day, it is hard to keep straight. Which is WHY I ASKED. If you want to help folks better understand you, you might want to keep it CONCISE, SHORT and to the point. And if you want to be understood you might want to lose the rudeness when folks ask you questions for clarification. I promise you will get lots more help that way.

This experience has shown me that I am probably not the right person to help here. Good luck and take care.

Mel,

I'm sorry if I offended you. I understand that people are here because they've BTDT and are trying to help others, or are going through it themselves.

But remember, actions come in context and I want to make sure that what I'm saying is clearly understood. Making suggestions and giving advice off of incomplete information means that what is said may not fit the situation.

I don't want to waste anyone's time. I should have written about my personal backstory a long time ago, and I apologize for that. Keep in mind where my head has been for the past three months. Hopefully there's been an audible pop as I've pulled it out of there.

We've all gotten a little snarky from time to time. Sorry from my end. You know from personal experience how tough this has been to accept and deal with.

Thanks for all the help and advice you've given me during these trials. And that goes for the rest of ya, too!

Mel,

One other note. Yes, I am long winded. Sorry about that. That's one of the things that's driven my wife up the wall over the years. I have plenty of bruises on my shin from giving the "shut up!" kick with the side of her foot.

And it's worse when I've had a few. I supress about two-thirds of my vocabulary, and about six beers in I start sounding like William F. Buckley and people's eyes start crossing. Yikes.

My problem is having a touch of Asperger's. I'm so used to people not getting what I'm driving at that I go to great lengths to make sure I've communicated my thoughts properly. Yikes, again.

I'm better at it than I used to be, though. Scary thought, when you think about how I used to be.

AHOC, keep in mind that I didn't give you advice; I ASKED for clarification on this point. Please consider what I said about keeping it more concise and to the point if you want folks to get a more accurate reading of your situation. I hope that helps. Good luck.

Mel,

I owe you an apology on that.

AHOC, keep in mind that I didn't give you advice; I ASKED for clarification on this point.

I misread it as you being aghast, rather than asking for a clarification. As I've said, my head has been in the wrong place for a while now. Sorry about that. Told you I was an expert at jumping to conclusions. Proof right there.

Thanks, AHOC, no harm done.

Yes I understand YOU HAVE but do you nderstand SHE HASN'T?

This is significantly impacting your situation right now even if you don't see it AOTC.

ahhhhh.....feel the love :-)

Why, thank you!

Mel,

I prefer to think of my posts as ..... thorough and complete.

I'm doing a bump, because it's been quite a while since I've posted in my thread (five weeks or so).

I'm going to do an update when I get a chance this weekend. It's been a remarkable six weeks, with some great stuff, some good stuff, some bad stuff, and a headshaker or two.

Overall, I think I've been way luckier than I deserve to be.....

And thanks to everyone who's replied to me since this whole mess began. I'm sure you'll have a 2x4 or two for me, hopefully along with an occasional attaboy.

(Mel, BK: Head to the lumber yard. Don't let me down!! )

P.S.: This is not to start a storm of replies, but I hope Mike's doing okay. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say I'm worried about him right now....

I'm always good for a 2x4

I love a good read AOTC, just as much as watching the cinders fly.

I'm glad that some things have been 'remarkable'.

Take care.

Okay, Vittoria and the rest... settle back, pop open a cold one if you've a mind to, and enjoy another novel. (Sorry, Mel.)

First, the weather forecast is calling for decreasing cloudiness with occasional fog, patchy at times, thick at others, but clearing up a little faster than normal given the conditions.

First, the A is deader than Kelcey's nu.... er, a doornail. As far as Pond Scum is concerned, FWW is radioactive. And as far as she's concered, he's, well, pond scum. Being described to the OMW as an Alex Forrest/Glenn Close/Fatal Attraction in training could just about kill anything. We'll get back to that in a bit.

The day before Valentine's day, I took a day off, and we went to a local tattoo shop, where she had a small heart inked high on her left breast. She told me that was her VD gift to me -- something permanent to show her committment. Nice. Very nice.

And I sent her flowers on the 27th anniversary of the day we met. The folks at work were impressed, and I got a lot of thumbs up from the small group of her friends there that know what's going on. They've been a good support group to me, as well as to her.

We've also had a couple more detailed talks since then. The one she initiated went a whole lot better than the one I tried to start. What we wound up discussing dealt with FOO and issues she had while growing up.

She had it tough. Her father died when she was 10, and as one of four kids with a widowed mother who didn't get a whole lot of help from the extended family, it meant tough times including spells of government cheese, if you will. She was the good one, who spent time cleaning the house and doing all that kind of stuff. The place never was very clean, but without her it would have been a total disaster area and possible health department violation. (That explains her total anger at lack of DS from me and the boys. I don't mind a little bit of mess, but that brought back bad memories for her. I've fixed that the past four months and am doing my share to help. I feel bad about that, believe me.)

Now comes the tough part for her. She had only two relationships before I came along. When she was 15 she got a job at a restaurant and had to ride the bus to work. The bus driver was very friendly, and got friendlier all the time. She said she was so naive that she had no idea what was going on until it developed further into statutory rape. This POS was in his early 30's, and she later found out she wasn't the only one, and it wasn't the first time he'd done this. This lasted until she was 18. FWIW, the bus driver got run over by the karma bus -- he died over a decade ago of a heart attack when he was just 53. RIP -- NOT!

The second POS was an abusive type. I've gathered that he was verbally abusive, possibly physically abusive, though I'm not sure about that. He treated her like crap, but she was finally able to get away from him. That explains why her mom greeted me like a savior when she took me home for the first time.

So, no surprise, she's had self-image issues all her life. Taking that into account, I fully believe her when she said she had no idea Pond Scum was married. If she'd known, he wouldn't have gotten close to her in the first place. It's possible someone else would have instead, but who knows?

That night she also told me there WAS a sexual element to it (yeah, shock). But this element practically breaks my heart. I'd had SF performance issues for a while, first caused by weight, then by apnea that contributed to blood pressure issues. The meds made it worse. Viagra/Cialis made the SF problems worse, because suddenly it was the Washington Monument, and it took forever and it physically hurt her.

She figured my problems were because she'd gained weight from the kids and I no longer found her attractive and that she was lousy in bed anyway, like that one boyfriend said. Total crap, but she believed it.

Okay, so along comes Pond Scum, a rugged-looking former co-worker who's physically imposing at 6'3", eight years younger than me and showing an interest. She bought in and things started. And then HE had a few problems. Watching him go pfffft a few times (which I found amusing, I have to say and hate to admit, the POS fraud) just confirmed her self-image.

After she told me this, she turned her head and muttered something I wasn't meant to hear -- "I risked everything for that. I'm so stupid."

After that, I proved to her that I find her very attractive, and she really is hot in the sack.

Fast forward to a couple of nights ago. We started discussing Pond Scum again when I was home on dinner break, and she corrected part of my timeline. The last time I talked to him was after the A started. In fact, it was right after she'd had surgery. I was home to help take care of her, and who wanders up with some DVD's that she can watch while stuck at home?

This POS hung out and we shot the breeze for about an hour, while he talked about his divorce again and how hard it was on his kids, etc. I never even wondered why he would stop by in the middle of the day on a weekday. Never even crossed my mind to question it. I asked her what she was thinking while Pond Scum was here and talking amicably to me. "This is awkward."

I actually laughed when I thought about it. I mean, the sheer effrontery of it, the gall, the cojones to not only stop by, but to talk to me for over an hour with her sitting right there!

I had to head back to work, but I figured her matter of fact response meant we could pick up the conversation when I got home for the night. Not so much. She objected, complaining all I wanted to talk about was the past. (Still some fog here.) She finally exploded, "You want to know what I'm feeling right now??"

She said she felt stupid for buying into his b.s., and fat and ugly, and how could anyone find her attractive? She also vented about how she hadn't tried to contact him, and that she was doing everything she was supposed to do. She had her best fried to babysit her when I wasn't around, calling it a prison, but also adding she knew why she was in that prison. That was enough for one night.

I've decided that there are still questions that I want answered, but I'm going to let her run the schedule to some degree. She really IS working at this, and I don't want to push, since there's been a lot of progress. We're hanging out together all the time, and quite frankly we're having more fun than we've had in a long time, maybe since we first started dating back when the earth was cooling.

She's the one that made the s**t-sandwiches we both are eating right now. I'm about a third of the way through mine. I figure she's 20-25% through hers. If I try to jam it down her throat, it won't get digested properly. I have to leave her some dignity in this process.

I married a feisty little redhead (Mel, if we put you about 9 on the feisty scale, she's an 8.) and I want HER back when we get through to the other side, not some poor thing crouched in a fetal position or scourging herself with whips. We may be lapsed Catholics, but the concept of penance is well understood by both of us.

It's gonna take more that ten Hail Mary's and a dozen Our Fathers to complete the penance, but we WILL get it done.

I just have to be patient. I can do this. (Who was it said that again, Vittoria? )

And so, an end to War and Peace, Part 1.

oh Lordie, Lordie, that stinker wrote a novel!! And there is childhood stuff in it too!! Well, I guess I will have to do my workout and leave the reading to others.


Feisty?? A poster once told me I needed "ASSERTIVENESS TRAINING!" So I have no idea what you mean!

Mel

MEL:
Feisty?? A poster once told me I needed "ASSERTIVENESS TRAINING!" So I have no idea what you mean! \:D

Tell that to the guy you pulled out of the pickup truck .

Besides, you swing a 2x4 like Josh Hamilton!

I can't! He is too scared to talk to me!

The red hair made me do it!

The red hair made me do it!

Yeah, I get that part. Red hair (wife, two sons) is why my carry permit reads

Hair: Silver

And now, War and Peace, Part 2.

There's been some resistance to reading the books I've picked up. She stopped reading "NOT Just Friends" a while back, and last week I bought HNHN and "Love & Respect" by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs (highly recommended!).

I told her during the second discussion (the one that didn't go so well) that I really need her to start on HNHN as soon as possible. I figured with her state of mind right now, leaving Shirley Glass's book out of the picture was a good idea.

And she's been reading HNHN for the past few days. A good sign. I have been pulling excerpts from this website that I've felt were profound and putting them in a file for later perusal. One of those was "Joseph's Letter." I printed off a copy a couple of days ago and left it in HNHN so she'd see it when she got home from work. She hasn't mentioned it, but it was folded in half, so I think she read it. I'll see if she addresses it on her own sometime in the next week. Again, she's doing the right things, so we'll do this on her emotional schedule on this one. Neither one of us is going anywhere.

Now comes the possible 2x4. She set up a MySpace account about a month ago. Her family and her co-workers all have MySpace pages (my family uses Facebook) and she wants one too. When I pointed out dangers, she told me she also wants to make a statement about our status on it, as in declaring to the world that we are together, permanently.

Oh, did I mention that Pond Scum is on MySpace?

Uh huh. Trouble. Then again, maybe not.

Every once in a while, she looks at his page. And she admitted it right away when I asked. But she seems more interested in the OMW's page. One of her more recent status reports had her excited because she was about "to go riding off into the wild blue yonder on the Harley with my Hubby. Eat your hearts out!" She told me she started laughing when she saw that. Her thoughts on it? "What in the hell is she thinking?!?" She seemed insulted that OMW would think she'd be eating her heart out about it.

Humorously enough, what she said mirrored my thoughts exactly when I first saw it. (Yes, I check their MySpace pages regularly for any clues on what might be going on over there.)

Her take is that OMW didn't tell me the truth about her M when we spoke on the phone in January. It seems Pond Scum was living openly with another woman way back before my wife earned the extra "W". That camper shell he claimed to live in at his own house was parked on this other woman's lawn when this whole merry-go-round got started. She thinks those two have some sort of weird game going on, one that's not healthy to be around.

No argument there.

That of course led to the question of what was running through her mind when she looked at Pond Scum's MySpace page -- enquiring minds want to know, of course. Her answer was any number of descriptive words, mostly ten or twelve letter compound words that wouldn't make it past the PC screen. (Again, matching my opinion. Go figure.)

I asked her if she was disappointed that Pond Scum seems to be in OMW's good graces despite all the evidence. She said yes. I then asked if what she wanted was -- exact quote -- "A spousally-performed double orchidectomy." She figured it would be too good for him. (I have no argument with that, either.) OMW has a cat. Might make a good meal for it.

She says she'd love to talk to him one more time and ask him what he was trying to accomplish, and if he just hates women, and so on and so forth. That might be entertaining to watch, if you want to be clinical about it, but I'd want to make sure she didn't sneak her hammerless .38 Special into her purse. She might use it on him. She admitted if she did to him what she'd like to do, I'd have to visit her in jail.

(I have my own ideas of what I'd like to do, but MikeC is an object lesson in that -- hope he's okay. Ignore my digression.)

She asked for my help in putting pictures on her MySpace page -- pictures of the two of us, including the one I'm currently using as my picture on Facebook. The caption she wanted "23 years and still going strong."

Strong statement. Goes nice with the new tattoo.

I'm still not quite sure what to think. Things seem to be going well, with occasional hiccups. Oddly enough, the hiccups are reassuring. We're working at it, both of us, and we will get to the other side.

The plan is to head home next year and renew our vows for our 25th anniversary. We'd always talked about doing that, but now it carries more meaning than ever before.

Okay, there's the update. Looking for feedback, thoughts, and any warnings I might need.

Fire away.

Her checking on him on myspace is contact.

NO CONTACT is for both of you - you both need to quite that. BOTH OF YOU.

bigkahuna:

Her checking on him on myspace is contact.

NO CONTACT is for both of you - you both need to quit that. BOTH OF YOU.

Advice noted. I'm done checking those two out. You're right -- why torture myself.

FWW has also agreed to stop. We'll see if she lives up to it. 50/50, but don't worry, I'm monitoring.

It's not about the A restarting -- no chance of that. It's all about her getting her mind right at this point.....

AOTC...

I think it's pretty SICK that your wife is STALKING her VICTIM (OMW)!!! "Her take" on what the OMW said regarding HER marriage is a bunch of HOOEY...Your wife has NO IDEA what goes on in OM's marriage...Anything she was told about his marriage came from a KNOWN LIAR...

You both need to knock off the commentary about their marriage...Their marriage is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...

Mrs. W

I agree with the others. It really creeped me out to hear your wife is still in competition with OMW.

MrsW:
I think it's pretty SICK that your wife is STALKING her VICTIM (OMW)!!! "Her take" on what the OMW said regarding HER marriage is a bunch of HOOEY...Your wife has NO IDEA what goes on in OM's marriage...Anything she was told about his marriage came from a KNOWN LIAR...

You both need to knock off the commentary about their marriage...Their marriage is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...

Whoa...first off, you're right on one thing. I shouldn't have gotten into the commentary part of things. I don't know exactly what's going on.

But remember... she's reacting to what the OMW told me. She didn't even know there was an OMW. Pond Scum did such a good job talking about his divorce that he convinced everyone that knew him from his former workplace (about 40 people at FWW's current employer) that he was divorced. He even convinced me. It wasn't until I went to the courthouse to check on when he was divorced that I discovered that fact. Two years ago, Pond Scum was openly living with another woman one town over from where OMW lives. She told me that they'd never had any problems of any kind. I didn't know that when I spoke with OMW, but I've had independent confirmation of that fact since then.

Basically, OMW lied to me. I've never met the woman face-to-face, wouldn't know her if I saw her on the street. But she sure knows me -- knows all about me. I sent her my cell phone breakdown sheet to give her evidence, and she promised me she'd do the same. I never heard from her again. I called her the next day and left a voice mail, then left a text message with her the following day. Not a peep from her. Not a thank you, not a it doesn't add up. Nothing. Black hole. Crickets chirping. To find out she lied to me on top of that was pretty annoying.

Granted, the info she gave about her conversations with Pond Scum blew away the fog in my household, and I'm grateful for that, but I don't get the rest of it. My wife was mad because it appears that she's been considered a whacked-out liar, and that ol' Pond Scum is skating on it. I get her anger at that. Hey, I even have some sympathy for that, if you can believe it.

And think about it -- OMW knew there was something weird going on for a minimum of nine months to a year, and never once tried to contact me. If your husband is being stalked, don't you try to do something about it for safety reasons? Her lack of action doesn't add up.

But you're right, commentary on their marriage was inappropriate. Won't happen again.

Lexxxy:
I agree with the others. It really creeped me out to hear your wife is still in competition with OMW.

She's not. The OMW seems to think she is. What's galling to FWW is that it seems that OMW bought all of Pond Scum's fables. And she was insulted that OMW thought she might still have an interest in him. That's all. That's it. And I believe her reaction is genuine. Her other comment was said with a sarcastic chuckle, "Good luck to her. She can have him."

Of course YOUR WIFE would never be taken in by pond scum. Or ever have an interest in him.

Do you know how stupid this stuff sounds? I'm just shaking my head.

bk....

Per your suggestion back before MB blew up for a few days, she hasn't looked at either MySpace site since I asked her not to do it any more (and explaining the rationale behind the request). Still monitoring, but so far, so good.

Of course YOUR WIFE would never be taken in by pond scum. Or ever have an interest in him.

Do you know how stupid this stuff sounds? I'm just shaking my head.

She's in BTDT mode. She did get taken in by Pond Scum and she's dealing with the consequences of her actions. It's been pretty brutal around here. She's offended by the fact that it seems that he's skating, and that she's being considered some sort of nutcase by OMW.

I'm offended a little by the fact that OMW flat out lied to me on the phone when I called her. I laid everything out on the line, and she blew smoke up my butt when she described how her marriage had never, ever even had an issue on infidelity. I sent her information she said she wanted, then never returned the favor or even acknowledged she'd received the stuff. Honesty from that household has been in short supply.

And if she knew FWW had been calling and sending inappropriate texts for somewhere close to a year, why didn't she try to contact me? Stalkers can be dangerous, and contacting me would seem be a common sense move for safety's sake. Of course the answer is, she was told by him that I'd called and talked to him about it. (My phone records prove otherwise, and she has 'em.)

But you know what? I'm worrying about me and mine from here on out. They're irrelevant.

I've been doing a lot of pondering the past three days or so, trying to figure out where my emotions really are right now.

I figured out where a lot of my residual anger is coming from. I'm the one that everyone else involved has flat-out lied to, some for a very long time.

I've been getting truth out of the FWW, finally. We've both been working hard on meeting EN's, and she's agreed to get back to reading the books I've been collecting on the subject. (HNHN, LB, NOT "Just Friends", Love & Respect, with SAA due in the mail late this week or early next week.) I read at around 800-1000 words a minute, but she's not a fast reader. It'll take time.

The idea is for her to read as many as possible before we go on a weekend getaway next month for her birthday. We're going to that same vacation spot she went to with Pond Scum this time last year, and where we went in October. Doing a little reclaiming. She understands why.

I do know that any understanding I had of the time line of things is totally bollixed up. I need to go over things one more time with her. I hate doing that, but I have to for my own sanity. I don't understand the whole thing just yet. She doesn't want to talk about it more, obviously, but I'm working on getting her to see the light for my need for closure. I'm confident she'll get it, and fairly soon.

I'm not trying to shove the whole s*** sandwich down her throat. That's no way to accomplish anything. She's been working on it on her own, so I'm trying not to be counterproductive. There's been progress, so I have to be patient, the hardest thing of all for me. Patience is not who I am. Gotta learn. I can do this.

As for the anger for Pond Scum and his wife, no need to elaborate on him. He bald-face lied to not just me, but everyone, and had dozens of people convinced. I'm thinking Karma Bus, because people like him create their own private hells, given enough rope.

Now for OMW. She lied to me as well when we spoke. I've found Pond Scum's address where he lived one town over during the separation she says never took place. And if she knew something weird was going on, why didn't she call me? Her explanation doesn't make sense. Accepting Pond Scums explanation that he was "going along" with suggestive late-night texts? C'mon. Get serious.

I've come to the conclusion that I will never understand those two people, and I shouldn't even spend the effort trying. I have to worry about me and mine. That's enough work for anyone.

All I know is, things seem to be getting better, slowly, which makes it more likely that I'm not imagining things.

There may be a light at the end of the tunnel after all, and odds are improving that it's not attached to a train.

Had another long talk this weekend, and boy what a weird turn this thing has taken.

The story of the A has changed, but oddly enough, I don't find the revised story all that upsetting. In fact, I even understand why she didn't spill her guts the first couple of times. And I think she's finally vomited it all up.

The revisions make her look worse, but not all that much worse, since at this point it's just a matter of degree. In fact, it all looks more pathetic than anything else.

The frequency of PA meetings didn't change. What was altered was when it started, and how. Date it from May '07 instead of June.

Things started innocently enough with practical jokes at work, which when she described them, I remembered her telling me all about them as they happened. Funny stuff, and totally devoid of anything inappropriate.

The problems came when Pond Scum left his part time job at my FWW's employer. They stayed in touch anyway. In March of '07, he called her at work to chat, and she asked him if was ever going to give her a motorcycle ride. He agreed, and that's when things started developing.

She admitted that she thought he was good looking and there was some attraction, but she never meant for anything to happen. Believable. But after that late March ride, things at home started getting a little tougher. I was going through things at work and we started arguing. She admits she started picking fights, and that's where the justifications started in her mind.

Pond Scum called her, and they met at a local park one afternoon in early May, and that led to a make-out session. A couple of weeks later, he called her, she met him at his full-time job, and when the building emptied, the PA started. In fact, she said for the first four months, that's what they did about once every two or three weeks -- met at his office and had sex on a table. Yuck.

She told me that she just wasn't emotionally prepared to tell me this before. I get it. It was just sleazy behavior, and she's ashamed of it. She should be.

That was about the only real change in the story. And since it makes her look so bad, I strongly believe that this is the real deal.

She also told me something else that changes everything. Pond Scum had ED issues the entire way through! He blamed it on Gulf War Syndrome, which doesn't quite fly when you examine it further. He told her about a month before her confession to me that he had to go to a doctor to get a shot to help him with it. (I looked it up -- if you do shots they're self-administered each time you want to get busy. More lies.) So much for the younger, good looking stud. Just sad.

She said he'd asked her to move in with him two or three times, but she never considered doing it. Our out of town trip last October before my joint replacement surgery made her wonder about everything, since it was a game-changer for us with my acknowledgment that our marriage needed a jump start.

His statements weren't adding up, and she had that "being used" feeling. Duh.

Basically, it all sounded so sleazy, so "hole and corner" as our Brit friends might say. Just low rent, low class, and as out of character for her as you can get.

With her reading LB right now, and the things she's been doing, and that we've been doing, we're making progress on the M. That's the other half of the equation, of course.

With the research I did, and what I did know before, her story stands up better with the revisions. It would have been nice if Pond Scum's wife had told me the truth about things when I talked to her back in January, but we're past that point now.

What are the things I need to watch for, look out for, and do to keep this thing progressing?

Replies eagerly awaited.

Well it's been exactly 2 mos since I replied to your thread, and at that time, I told you that you were nowhere "ahead of the curve." You simply didn't realize it at the time. Too much enthusiasm and too eager that you had the entire truth so quickly.

Sad to say, you are not done yet. There will be yet another revalation and soon I hope.

All Blessings,
Jerry

shinethrough

I paid attention to what you said in the last post. I knew that my FWW and I would have to have another talk to cover everything one last time and try to get rid of the "I don't know/don't remembers."

It happened Thursday night, and I hate to say it, I began it with a real LB, on a return of serve. I knew she was going to be up when I got home from work and I was looking forward to talking with her. Unfortunately, she was watching this incredibly dumb movie on TV (and I hate watching TV in general -- nothing's on. And that's an expert opinion, trust me!), so I headed off to the bedroom to read. Instead I fumed. When I went to the fridge to get a beer, she asked me what was wrong, guessed why, and off we went.

She raised a ruckus about not getting any alone time anymore. She's right -- S23 is working part time, and he's usually working when she is, so when she's home, so is he. When I'm around, all my attention is focused on her, and she feels stifled. She's right, which is galling.

So naturally, things turned to the aftermath of the A. I started bitching that she hadn't picked up any of the books for about a week. She got defensive, then offensive, and then the books started flying around the room. (I picked the fight, and should have known what was coming.)

She complained that I keep throwing the A in her face. I don't, but she's still WDing a little bit, and feels ashamed, angry, anxious, and a few other a-words. I told her that I still had questions, including where ol' Pond Scum's ex-GF was living during the A.

She blew up, and insisted on showing me where, since she didn't know the address but could find it. So off we went. She told me it was off one major street in our town. She was mixed up -- it was another major street that started with the same letter. Honest mistake. While we were driving, I went over the beginnings of the A one more time. She showed my the house, I memorized the address, and we came back home. She told me she was angry and shut down.

Funny thing is, knowing the address allowed me to do internet research that actually proved some of the things she told me. Got the name, which matched the first name of the GF she told me about earlier. Google maps proved that the OMW lied to me. The street shot of her house didn't show the trailer or the motorcycle, which would have been there if Pond Scum was actually living with her the whole time, like OMW had said. The photo of the ex-GF's house had the motorcycle in the front yard and what looked like the trailer in the back yard.

I know everyone hates long posts.....so this is being broken up into two parts.....

End Part 1

Part 2....

Going over the A's beginnings brought one minor change. On the day it became a PA, they met at that same park, talked, then he invited her to where he worked, which was deserted by then since everyone had gone home. She knew what was going to happen, and agreed to go.

So, the blinders are off. Let's face it, she didn't set out to start it, but she was involved every step of the way. She gave off all the right vibes, and Pond Scum's reptilian brain understood what the possibilities were.

Excuse for asking for the motorcycle ride? An angry "I like motorcycles!" Great. A new trigger for me. Now I get to be reminded of things everytime I see a HD motorcycle. It's going to be a long spring.

She's vomited up everything that matters. When I asked her why she just didn't tell me all of it from the get-go, she said she didn't think I could handle it all right away. Typical foggy thinking.

She's also made a few statements at various times through the iterations of her story that, as a whole, are quite telling.

She talked about how she felt like a maid, since no one was helping her around the house despite the fact she had a fulltime job. (Guilty as charged.) She talked about when I was around, my nose was either in a book, or glued to the computer monitor. (Close enough.) With the boys grown, she felt unneeded, and wanted to develop independence. (She sure as hell did that!)

She said the sex wasn't very good due to his ED issues, so I asked her why she kept going back for more. She said it was because he showed her attention. Sad to say, I buy it. Not filling EN's, and my own IBs -- we pay for our sins sevenfold. Grrrrrr.

She told me that he asked her to move in with him at least three times. She said she never considered it because she knew what she had with me. (Another slice of, er, cake anyone?) Let's face it -- Pond Scum is a loser. His job pays squat. He's a pretty face who's good with automotive tools, but not with his personal tool, and he has a motorcycle.

She also told me that she wanted to see if things would get better between us -- not that she told me anything was wrong, mind you. I'm your standard idiot. If she wasn't complaining, everything must be okay.

Our out of town trip just before joint replacement surgery was what broke the A's back. I was asking the right questions about our marriage, and trying to improve things. At that point, the lies and subterfuge got to her, and she confessed to me.

Oops... I lied. There will be a Part 3.

Part 3.....

Her confession is one of the things that have saved the M so far. Another is the fact that the PA part of the program ended before our out of town trip. Still another is the fact that's she's ashamed and sorry for what she did. I don't think there'll be a repeat. I've already told her that if it happens again, I'm Mason Crosby and her a$$ is a football.

I spent part of yesterday fuming. I was going over my options. Should I have an RA to get even? How about Plan D and making it ugly -- with my prominence in the community it would be front page every day. Pond Scum would wind up getting fired for having sex on city property, the boys would never speak to her again, we'd lose the house and have to declare bankruptcy, and I'd lose my job and have to move to another city and start over again. And I wouldn't care.

I made my decision. I went to Wal-Mart, got three roses, went home at dinnertime and put 'em in a vase (she was at work) and wrote on the back of an index card asking for do-over. Sanity prevails. I don't want this to go up in smoke. I love her too much for that.

She said a do-over was what she wanted, too. Thank G-d, as my pals who are Members of the Tribe would say.

This morning, I woke up early, took my blood pressure meds, and started brooding. I laid on the couch while she was sleeping, and the tears started leaking.

How Could She?

Uh, you had an ONS 20 years ago.

I was drunk! She was sober, and did it with malice aforethought!

And how much attention did you pay her over the years? How much more effort did you put into the job than into the marriage?

Ah, crap. Shuddup.

Honestly, I think I know everything I need to know about the details of the A. Anything else would be pure torture. I understand why she doesn't want to talk about it -- it makes here feel about three inches tall. At this point, questions about the A turn into spousal abuse. If she wants to talk, I'll listen. If not, time to start letting it go.

I know I'm dealing with a form of PTSD. (How can I have PTSD? PTSD is for guys like my Dad, who survived the Ardennes forest in '44-45. THAT'S stress, not this. This is just sucky.) When things get to me, I'm going to go off by myself until it passes.

I'm looking for any advice anyone has for me so I don't start fouling things up. I think we've turned a corner, if I don't go off the deep end.

And in case anyone was wondering, my screen name comes from my basic personality. I'm the most relentlessly optimistic person I know.

There's always a way to make it work. A little more effort, and you'll turn the corner. If it hits the fan, hey, we have fertilizer for the garden. IT'S ALL GOOD!

I'm getting my first taste of clinical depression. No one can tell, because with me clinical depression appears to be anyone else's passing bad mood.

Amazingly, my optimism (in the case of everything except the Cubs) has proven to be correct. Here's hoping my streak continues.

I've already told her that if it happens again, I'm Mason Crosby and her a$$ is a football.

For any non-football fan...or Packer fan Crosby is the Packers Field Goal kicker!!