Marriage Builders
Posted By: GreenMile WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 10:53 PM
SadSoSad's husband here. Just wanted to check in. I spent a couple of days in the hospital after finally dumping all my secrets and "coming clean" followed by a nervous breakdown. I have been lying and hiding secrets all my life and using my intellect as a cover and a shield. I never had imagined that I could ever completely short circuit, but that is what happened after puking out everything and finally admitting to myself and spouse the deepest secrets and sad story of my adult life and compulsive sordid behavior. Most here are well aware of this story. I am now on an antidepressant med, have my first appointment with Dr. Harley by phone tomorrow and also my first appointment with a psychiatrist later tomorrow afternoon, in what will no doubt be a long journey. This is not really a question, but just a big thank you to all who have helped SadSoSad and who have offered advice and help to me during the days before my bottom recently. Those who I initially thought were being unhelpful have turned out to be the most helpful and kind of all, and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. Those who expressed tremendous anger at me on my initial thread, which is now locked, were not being inappropriate, and I understand that everyone here has been on their own difficult journey. Mine and SadSoSad's journey is just beginning. Please wish us well. I don't know what will happen, but whatever does, it will not be for a lack of trying. If we succeed, maybe this will be an inspiration to others. Any advice to me or to us at this point will be most welcome.
Posted By: faithful follower Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 10:59 PM
I wish you both well. This is just the beginning of the roller coaster ride for SSS.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 11:06 PM
Glad to see you back home. I think the Mrs said that the anti-D's make you feel odd. That is very normal, and your body should adjust in about 2 weeks.

I don't take any meds, and when I did take the anti-D's for a year, I felt very strange for the first couple of weeks, kind of drugged and out of it.

I think the two of you are going to be just fine. It will take a bit of work, but you seem to get that.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 11:33 PM
Thank You, FF. We are ready and have no illusions.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 11:47 PM
Glad to see you are home. Let us know what Steve Harley has to say.

Are you in good enough shape to start tackling the list of things that were recommended??? (poly, post nup, EPs)

Still praying for you and your wife. Just remember to put one foot in front of the other.

BTW, how was craft time? grin I had the pleasure of experiencing craft time many years back, 26 years ago to be exact, under a little different circumstances, but I have been there.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 11:48 PM
Yes, I feel drugged and kind of odd and flat. Apparently, I will be on them 6-9 months. Thank you for the encouragement. I feel very lucky in this economy to be able to have access to Dr. Harley and afford the MB telephone consultations and weekend in March and also the psychiatrist. A much greater social safety net is needed for people.

It was particularly odd to be in the mental unit and not even be able to leave, even though it was a voluntary admit. Talk about a controlled environment! The other patients were so sad ( I am sure they probably thought that about me). No one knows a real bottom until experiencing that. It was just like in the movies. In the Arts and Crafts session I painted a sunflower ceramic, and it will be on our wall and serve as a permanent reminder and an inspiration. (Actually, it is pretty cute. LOL.)
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 11:51 PM
Hi, TST. I am ready to tackle that. The sedative effect of the medication is less today, and we are making steady plans for the full program.

Funny, I mentioned the crafts project in the previous post before I even read yours stickout
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: WH back from hospital - 01/26/09 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
In the Arts and Crafts session I painted a sunflower ceramic, and it will be on our wall and serve as a permanent reminder and an inspiration. (Actually, it is pretty cute. LOL.)

HA! What no ashtray for SSS? grin Couldn't resist that one GM...I think it's wonderful that you guys will be hanging your sunflower on the wall as a "reminder and inspiration"...I think it will help keep you grounded...

Welcome back...glad you are okay...You know GM, you have an incredible wife...Her warm, winning personality shines through on a message board! WOW! Be very kind to her GM...humble, grateful...Pledge to do "whatever it takes for as long as it takes"...People like SSS don't come along twice in a lifetime...You are a very, very lucky man...

Mrs. W
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 12:09 AM
"It was particularly odd to be in the mental unit and not even be able to leave, even though it was a voluntary admit. Talk about a controlled environment! The other patients were so sad ( I am sure they probably thought that about me)"

Well, I have been through that. Yes, very controlled. LOL.

When I was locked up, I enjoyed the other patients. But I was probably lucky on the unit I was in.

I HATED the crafts and all of that, and get this, in the patient lounge, we watched a DVD of "The Three Faces of Eve". That's a good one for the looney bin!

Hang in there. I think you and the Mrs. will work this out.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 12:36 AM
I agree with you totally about her.

And, if they had allowed ashtrays in the unit, I probably would have made one for her, though it wouldn't have looked as nice on the wall.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by believer
I HATED the crafts and all of that, and get this, in the patient lounge, we watched a DVD of "The Three Faces of Eve". That's a good one for the looney bin!

Good grief! Hahahaha. You just made my day.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 01:24 AM
Actually it was a good experience. I did let my shrink know about the movie. This was about 20 years ago, I was locked up for anxiety and panic attacks. Never had them since getting out.

So I know what it is like. Now I laugh about it, but at the time I was mortified that I could be in the psycho ward.

Hope you are feeling okay. The meds will even out and you will feel normal in a couple of weeks.

Of course then you have to get into the business of recovery.............
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 03:12 AM

I am glad to see you back, GM.

Your W is a great woman. Make sure you don't mess up the tiny window she is giving you.

You are to be commended for stripping out the personality cancer so quickly and dramatically. Usually a smrt WS like you will just front. Again, I was you, and I have done that.

Anyway, eternal vigilance is the price of marital recovery. Somebody famous said something like that. Pay SSS serious attention every hour of every day.

I know with me, one little minor episiode of missing a chance for affection or what have you just sets my blood boiling and makes me wonder why I am even trying with wayward. But a tiny gesture like a hug or a kiss or dissipates it like smoke.

Best wishes, and I apologize for any rudeness earlier in our exchanges.

Your friend,

Mike
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 03:58 AM
Thank you so much, Mike. No need for you to apologize for anything. Your posts were and remain spot on. I know you are dealing with some difficult things now, too, not to mention the past, and I wish you all the best. Thank you for the kindness you have shown SSS. You are right about her. I only wish I had understood what I had a long time ago. It IS a small window, and I will not squander it.







Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 07:05 PM
GM,

Whats the first item in recovery that you are planning to tackle.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 10:09 PM
tst - From the Mrs. post, it looks like telling her details about his affairs as suggested by the Harleys.

Personally, I never WANTED any details.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 10:14 PM
I mean, I wanted details about why my ex fell for the OW, and things about their relationship, but what they did while they were rutting just didn't interest me.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WH back from hospital - 01/27/09 10:25 PM
He's Ba-ack!

I think it's good that you didn't make an ashtray. As soon as SSS mentioned it, my immediate thought was "Ah, a blunt object!"

I figure a psych ward is like any hospitalization. I've only been hospitalized once for illness. I welcomed those few days of not having to clean, and cook, wonder if the laundry needed doing or who was going to answer the phone... All I had to do was sleep and eat what they brought me and be left alone. When you're sick enough, that's pure bliss.

I can see how a psych ward would be a real downer, but at the same time you had just been through a huge upheaval and the break from "real life" was probably exactly what you needed.

I agree that SSS is a gem of a woman. Funny, strong, articulate, unbelievably generous and caring.

Y'all have a lot of work to do, to be sure, but you don't have to do it all right now. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The only thing you have to do is keep at it. You're allowed to live and enjoy life while you're doing all this, you know. Good seeing you posting again.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/28/09 05:47 AM
TST, regarding your question of what is the first thing, It is an No Contact Statement or policy and detailed plans of what I will do, that covers all conceivable circumstances that could come up, where OW tries to contact me or "inadvertently" runs into me somewhere. It is approved or edited by W and faxed to Dr. Harley. I am working on that now. As for me contacting her, though I would consider that an impossibility in my heart, the safeguards include the GPS thing, phone records, etc.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/28/09 06:08 AM
It isn't about those kinds of details. It is more about what was happening in my head that lead to the decisions in the circumstances, the rationalizations or feelings and how they were carried out. It is going to be very painful, but it is designed for me to be able to recognize any future similar circumstances, thinking, or compulsions very early, so that I can intervene and consciously reject them. Dr. Harley told me on the phone that, although right now I cannot imagine ever repeating my behavior again, there must be safeguards that I can recognize even many years in the future, when the pain of what occurred has subsided. He feels that I may become susceptible again at some point. I sure could not argue with the logic of that, even though I don't believe I could live with myself if I ever did such a thing again.

So, it is not what W fears by "details". Even so, remembering the circumstances and events and sharing those with SSS will be very, very hard, more so on her than on me, and I am "so NOT wanting to do that". But he believes that it is necessary in healing with minimal scarring, because it goes a huge way toward restoring confidence and trust. This stage has to be completed before we can begin to work on actually meeting each other's emotional needs. A written plan following the validation step is written and sent to Dr. Harley, like the initial and fairly quick NC plan, but this could take longer. Anyway, that is my understanding today.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/28/09 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
He's Ba-ack!

I think it's good that you didn't make an ashtray. As soon as SSS mentioned it, my immediate thought was "Ah, a blunt object!"

I figure a psych ward is like any hospitalization. I've only been hospitalized once for illness. I welcomed those few days of not having to clean, and cook, wonder if the laundry needed doing or who was going to answer the phone... All I had to do was sleep and eat what they brought me and be left alone. When you're sick enough, that's pure bliss.

I can see how a psych ward would be a real downer, but at the same time you had just been through a huge upheaval and the break from "real life" was probably exactly what you needed.

I agree that SSS is a gem of a woman. Funny, strong, articulate, unbelievably generous and caring.

Y'all have a lot of work to do, to be sure, but you don't have to do it all right now. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The only thing you have to do is keep at it. You're allowed to live and enjoy life while you're doing all this, you know. Good seeing you posting again.

That is very helpful, Turtlehead. Thank you. I guess it is best to kind of take a deep breath and move my thinking toward the long view. It all seems so immediately overwhelming right now, I could easily go overboard in the early stages with my personality.

As far as "blunt objects" are concerned, the only thing that is blunted right now is my affect a little bit after starting that med. LOL
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 01/28/09 02:38 PM
That makes more sense, although I also think if you ask Steve, MB calls for all details asked for to be truthfully confessed to the BS.

I had to get them, for me it turned out knowing was better than imagining. They were related under the threat of poly, so I believe they are accurate. And, in all honesty, WW is no gymnast in the sack, so there wasn't anything too surprising in there. As she said in summary, it was "basic" and only 5 or 6 times, not enough to get bored and sophisticated.

I'm sure it was all so emotionally wonderful they didn't need to...<eyeroll>
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/28/09 03:31 PM
Yes, I agree that the WS should provide answers to any questions that the BS has.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 01:03 AM
Hope that you are still doing okay..................
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Hope that you are still doing okay..................

Thanks, Believer. You are a very nice person. It was a rough day yesterday. I am working on Steve Harley's assignments for me, which are different from SSS's right now, and some realizations about how, what, and why I did what I did to BW are so painful, and the details so awful, I am overwhelmed by the enormity of what lies behind me and ahead of me. I am just not the person I thought I was or ever wanted to be. That is pretty devastating to deal with at age 61. I do find great encouragement and some hope from people's posts here.

My own feelings pale in comparison to SSS's as a result of what I have done and been. She is just shattered. For the sake of this program, she has put me on ignore on this forum, which is good. I am slowly learning that everything that happened is because my only concern all my life has been me. I am the only one that has mattered to me. Total egocentricity. This has not been a real marriage, but she thought it was for a quarter century because of how adept at lying I have been, and the task ahead is to heal what seems like a mortal wound in SSS right now and then rebuild a marriage from the ground up, with only us as a concern, and the separate "me" gone. This just seems like Mt. Everest. Some hope and some encouragement is what I hang onto.

I had nightmares all night the other night. In one, I was on some island near the edge of a cliff, and the cliff was cleaving away and falling off in places. There was ice everywhere, and people were after me. it isn't hard to see what that dream means. It was a perfect metaphor for what is happening to my ego. SSS is too good of a person for me to give up or let this slip away. I will never find anyone like her. Too many tears right now.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 02:15 PM
Hey GM...

Something I've found very helpful in my own personal recovery was less focus on myself...Reaching out to help others here helped me in a way that self-focus never would have...and in doing so, I did learn a whole lot about myself - a very beneficial byproduct...(obviously you still continue to do your SH homework and do everything you can for SSS...and sure still post on your own thread. smile)

Anyway, not sure if you have read it or not, but there is another wayward doctor on the board right now, Chewie...He seems very flip to others herein...I wonder if you might read his thread and perhaps post and get through to him in a way that maybe only another doctor could...What do you think?

Mrs. W
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Hey GM...

Something I've found very helpful in my own personal recovery was less focus on myself...Reaching out to help others here helped me in a way that self-focus never would have...and in doing so, I did learn a whole lot about myself - a very beneficial byproduct...(obviously you still continue to do your SH homework and do everything you can for SSS...and sure still post on your own thread. smile)

Anyway, not sure if you have read it or not, but there is another wayward doctor on the board right now, Chewie...He seems very flip to others herein...I wonder if you might read his thread and perhaps post and get through to him in a way that maybe only another doctor could...What do you think?

Mrs. W

Thanks Mrs.W. So, overwhelmed with it all right now, it is hard to get outside myself. I have so much to do with all this, there is little time for the forums. Gotta set up post-nup. Change all my Trust documents. Arrange for a horse sitter. Sign up for a weekend, along with all my SH assignments and life's regular demands. I will check out Chewie. Thanks.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 03:36 PM
Quote
So, overwhelmed with it all right now

It's like eating an elephant, GM.

You don't open wide and swallow a whole elephant at once.

You eat an elephant one bit at a time, chewing every bit 50 times, and waiting till that one bite reaches your tummy before you go for another bite.

One

Bite

At

A

Time.

Regards,
Kimmy
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Quote
So, overwhelmed with it all right now

It's like eating an elephant, GM.

You don't open wide and swallow a whole elephant at once.

You eat an elephant one bit at a time, chewing every bit 50 times, and waiting till that one bite reaches your tummy before you go for another bite.

One

Bite

At

A

Time.

Regards,
Kimmy

Thanks for the reminder. Seems like every day, we need to remember that all over again.


Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I had nightmares all night the other night. In one, I was on some island near the edge of a cliff, and the cliff was cleaving away and falling off in places. There was ice everywhere, and people were after me. it isn't hard to see what that dream means.

I had the same dream the night Obama won!
Posted By: not2fun Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thanks Mrs.W. So, overwhelmed with it all right now, it is hard to get outside myself.

Well, good dr. just remember to breath.....and to remember it is WHAT you do with yourself from this point forward that will make you into the man you WANT to be tomorrow.....

not2fun

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I had nightmares all night the other night. In one, I was on some island near the edge of a cliff, and the cliff was cleaving away and falling off in places. There was ice everywhere, and people were after me. it isn't hard to see what that dream means.

I had the same dream the night Obama won!

rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao

That thar is funny, even for a liberal like me.

A laugh like that is very therapeutic right now. stickout
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
You eat an elephant one bit at a time, chewing every bit 50 times, and waiting till that one bite reaches your tummy before you go for another bite.

EEWWWWW that's just gross! I'll bet that tasted awful Kimmy. Wha'd ya do when you got to the rear of that beast? Did you chew 50 times or finally swallow some of it whole? sick
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I had nightmares all night the other night. In one, I was on some island near the edge of a cliff, and the cliff was cleaving away and falling off in places. There was ice everywhere, and people were after me. it isn't hard to see what that dream means.

I had the same dream the night Obama won!

OMG.......... I had that same dream the same night! lol
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 08:31 PM
Honey, if it's deep fried or dipped in ranch dressing, I'll bet even elephant tastes good.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 08:36 PM
GM, It all sounds pretty normal to me.

You didn't get where you are from eating too many bowls of Cherio's.

Just keep in mind, This too shall pass!

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Honey, if it's deep fried or dipped in ranch dressing, I'll bet even elephant tastes good.


rotflmao you must be a southern girl!
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 08:39 PM
Well...der!

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Honey, if it's deep fried or dipped in ranch dressing, I'll bet even elephant tastes good.

And I'll bet you never forget the taste, either.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/29/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by tst
GM, It all sounds pretty normal to me.

You didn't get where you are from eating too many bowls of Cherio's.

Just keep in mind, This too shall pass!

Thnx, tst.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 01/31/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
This has not been a real marriage, but she thought it was for a quarter century because of how adept at lying I have been,


The first thing I said to WW that seemed to break through was "You have not only ruined my life now, but wasted it with 20 years of loveless marriage..."

Sorry,that probably smarts...
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/31/09 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
This has not been a real marriage, but she thought it was for a quarter century because of how adept at lying I have been,


The first thing I said to WW that seemed to break through was "You have not only ruined my life now, but wasted it with 20 years of loveless marriage..."

Sorry,that probably smarts...

It does, but the truth is the truth. Even so, you are an inspiration. If I can do my work, we have a chance. That helps me a lot right now.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 01/31/09 10:29 PM
You seem to be working very hard and I have high hopes for the marriage. Hang in there.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by believer
You seem to be working very hard and I have high hopes for the marriage. Hang in there.

I am, believer, and I have hopes. One of the things that some members of this forum do not really know is that, despite the tremendous damage, SSS and I have some kind of special "chemistry" that we both recognize. Neither one of us wants to live without the other. Even if we failed, and the marriage ended, we both recognize that we would probably always call each other and be friends. That would constitute an EA, and would prevent us from ever really finding someone else. That makes it absolutely imperative that I succeed in healing her and learning what to do. There really is no other option.
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 03:08 AM
There is another option...

SSS could decide to divorce you and go no contact with you. She would go through withdrawal from you and eventually be able to have a committed relationship with someone else.

"High hopes" for your marriage is a bit much at this point, considering the history of your marriage.

Keep your focus on healing HER regardless of the state of the marriage, and give her the right to exit this marriage if she so chooses.

This will be a VERY LONG process, and she really has no idea how she's going to feel in the months/years ahead.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by sexymamabear
There is another option...

SSS could decide to divorce you and go no contact with you. She would go through withdrawal from you and eventually be able to have a committed relationship with someone else.

"High hopes" for your marriage is a bit much at this point, considering the history of your marriage.

Keep your focus on healing HER regardless of the state of the marriage, and give her the right to exit this marriage if she so chooses.

This will be a VERY LONG process, and she really has no idea how she's going to feel in the months/years ahead.

I wrote "hopes", not "high hopes". Regardless, I know it will be a long, long process. Also, she doesn't need me to "give her the right" to exit this marriage. She is in the drivers' seat, and her rights don't come from me. But your point is well taken.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Originally Posted by sexymamabear
There is another option...

SSS could decide to divorce you and go no contact with you. She would go through withdrawal from you and eventually be able to have a committed relationship with someone else.

"High hopes" for your marriage is a bit much at this point, considering the history of your marriage.

Keep your focus on healing HER regardless of the state of the marriage, and give her the right to exit this marriage if she so chooses.

This will be a VERY LONG process, and she really has no idea how she's going to feel in the months/years ahead.

I wrote "hopes", not "high hopes". Regardless, I know it will be a long, long process. Also, she doesn't need me to "give her the right" to exit this marriage. She is in the drivers' seat, and her rights don't come from me. But your point is well taken.

SMB has this spot on. Pay good attention to what she said. Let's not get bogged down in semantics!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 04:49 AM
Yep. I understand. Thanks, bigkahuna.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 09:27 PM
I have a question and need some advice:

Right now, of course, there is still nothing but this gigantic open wound in our marriage, and SSS is in mental anguish at many times, and I am trying and am dedicated to learning how and what to do to heal this. It is 100% MY job. I understand that completely. Though it could take forever, we have been advised that this healing phase will most likely take "around" two years. Here is the question:

SSS wants me to still be able to go on occasional hikes on trails with my dogs. I have done this for years, usually about 5 times per week. SSS wants me to still be able to do this, though , not as often, because she knows how important it is for my health and for the dogs. But, she worries, of course. I have the GPS tracker on my car and on my cell phone, so that she can see where I am in real time and later on, have been. Her "giver" does not want me to sacrifice this important part of my life, but her "taker" is nervous, and "enthusiastic agreement" with my going hiking cannot be achieved. She wants me to, but is not really totally comfortable. My "giver" wants to stop these hikes, because I need to heal her and make her feel safe, and I don't want her to be the least bit uncomfortable. My "taker" obviously wants to still go on one or two of these hikes per week, which take a couple of hours. It is important to my long term health, because I have a bad aortic valve in my heart, which will require replacement some time in the next few years, and it is important that I stay in good physical shape.

What should we do about this? Is it too early to be applying the principle of "joint agreement" requiring ENTHUSIASTIC agreement by both, because of the anxiety it causes SSS? Or should I be willing to accept her "giver" and go on these hikes that are important to my health and our dogs, and allow the GPS tracker to keep her more comfortable about it? Any advice is welcome, regardless of the opinion.

Before you give an opinion, it is extremely important that you know that I went with the OW on some of these hikes in the past, and that is the BIG source of her worry and discomfort about allowing me off to go hiking.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 10:23 PM

Get a treadmill.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 10:24 PM
Since you went hiking with the OW, and your dogs, I would say that you cannot do it anymore, unless your wife goes with you.

Otherwise it is very hurtful to her.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: WH back from hospital - 02/01/09 10:38 PM
I agree, you can't go alone...that is out of the question.

Can she go with you? If 5 miles is too long for her, can you shorten it with the long-term goal of getting back up to 5 miles WITH her?

Is there another form of exercise that the two of you could do TOGETHER? That would provide some nice time to meet your needs for conversation, UA, RC...it could count towards your 15+ hours you are to be spending together/week.

You just need to think outside of the box for this...there IS a solution that can be successfully POJA'ed.

To give you an example, we have done this as well...FWH used to run marathons, he met OW on a running message board. For obvious reasons, running marathons is now out of the question...it was also an IB that helped to tear our M down in the first place.

We POJA'ed this and now we exercise together...but not running, we lift weights. It's been a great source of RC for us; it gives us a common interest; it sparks converstation. We just needed to think outside of the box and this is SO great for us.

Keep brainstorming...you will come up with something!



Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 02:14 AM
Thanks, all, for the replies. I see the wisdom of this. Even though she wants me to be able to do this, if it makes her uncomfortable I simply cannot do this anymore. Looks like I ruined things for my dogs, too. I can get the excercize I need on my Air-Dyne stationary bike, and when the weather is warm, my dogs can retrieve dummies from the pond and walk around the property. SSS is willing to hike with me and the dogs on occasion, probably more like a three miler, maybe once per week. I just cannot do anything that makes her uncomfortable anymore. Simple as that.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 03:37 PM
Quote
SSS is willing to hike with me and the dogs on occasion, probably more like a three miler, maybe once per week. I just cannot do anything that makes her uncomfortable anymore.
Right, you cannot. I hope you are not feeling or showing any resentment or frustration over this, either...you did this to yourself and it's going to be a big fat LBer if you show and resentment or frustration.

I think taking 3 mile walks/once a week together is a GREAT start...who knows, maybe she will really love it and you two can add miles and how many times/week you do it and get back up to your 5-milers. But in the meantimes this is a great start!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 04:26 PM
I need some more help. I know this sounds pretty infantile, but here goes. I don't know what to do, when SSS is on the downside of the roller coaster. I don't know what I can do or say to make her feel loved. Isn't that stupid? She tells me that I'd better figure it out, and that she is feeling like it is still all about ME, and that I am really not working this program. And yet, I feel like I am trying everything I know how. I have done the assignments from Steve Harley, made an appt. for a post-nup, agreed to polygraph, made reservations for the March MB weekend, got the phone GPS set up and use the GPS trackstick. I am seeking help on this forum and being radically honest about everything now. I made continued fatal mistakes during the first few months after discovery. I continued to lie and withhold facts about the affair and numerous other infidelities with paid sex workers during the preceding 18 years. After finally baring it all and coming completely apart, ending up in the mental hospital for a few days, we are basically back in the earliest stages. For some reason, I just couldn't make myself tell the truth about those other things. It was just too sordid and embarrassing and humiliating. I was petrified that she would never respect me again and could never love me after that, so I said nothing about it and flat out lied that there was nothing else to tell. I was terrified that it would be over. The realization that a polygraph would bring that out forced me to finally give it all up. Who knows? Maybe it is too much to expect a person to assimilate that kind of hurt and pain and make a go of it. I know that it will take years before she cqn begin to feel even a little bit comfortable about me. But the fact is that I LOVE THAT WOMAN (don't worry - she has me on IGNORE). I could look a thousand years and not find someone like her. That is just plain true. am desperate for this to work, because of that, not just because of a quest for forgiveness or for guilt, even though both of those things drive me as well. All those years, I had buried my love for her because of her anger at me (that I had caused). Now I am faced with the realization that I may have permanently destroyed that which was what I was always really seeking. Incredible and tragic. At the same time, just banal and stupid.

SSS is an amazing woman, and in the last few weeks, I find myself feeling love that I thought was gone for so many years. I find myself fantasizing about her sexually, and I get positively giddy when she is having a good day. I adore being around her then and doing things together. It is like before we were married. She is going to feel massively hurt and violated and betrayed for the rest of her life, but I just plain don't know what I can do or say on the "bad days". Unless I can learn to handle that in a more satisfactory way, I fear that she will give up on me. Can any of you help me?
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
All those years, I had buried my love for her because of her anger at me (that I had caused).

wot?

Quote
but I just plain don't know what I can do or say on the "bad days". Unless I can learn to handle that in a more satisfactory way, I fear that she will give up on me. Can any of you help me?

When my WW sees me in "seethe" mode she showers me with attention, hugs, SF if I want it....sometimes gets teary and apologizes, says it was all the biggest mistake, is really committed to the M and helping me heal, etc

That works.

PS: someone on your BW's thread, in case you aren't reading, suggested while you walk along, she go on horseback since you own horses.

Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 04:49 PM
Well, since it has been such a short time since she found out all of this, I think she is doing quite well.

You can expect her to feel bad for several YEARS.

I think you are doing what you need to do, and all of that stuff will make her feel safer with you.

And please realize that your son's accident will bring her back feelings of fear.

Maybe you can just hold her and comfort her.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
All those years, I had buried my love for her because of her anger at me (that I had caused).

wot?

Quote
but I just plain don't know what I can do or say on the "bad days". Unless I can learn to handle that in a more satisfactory way, I fear that she will give up on me. Can any of you help me?

When my WW sees me in "seethe" mode she showers me with attention, hugs, SF if I want it....sometimes gets teary and apologizes, says it was all the biggest mistake, is really committed to the M and helping me heal, etc

That works.

PS: someone on your BW's thread, in case you aren't reading, suggested while you walk along, she go on horseback since you own horses.

Yes. SSS was almost continually angry with me nearly from the beginning of our marriage because of my attitude of dominance and ego and my deference to my father, who hated her because she was not subservient to me. I didn't understand at the time that I was the one with the problem, the one who caused that anger, or even how totally obnoxious I was in our marriage in the early years. I just assumed that my Dad must be right, and I became just like him. He was insufferable. She was terrified but trapped in the marriage and thought that all my good qualities would cause me to see the light eventually and change. Instead, I reacted to her anger, which I had caused, by withdrawing, eventually completely, and refused to see what was my fault in our initial attempt at marriage counseling in 1984. Our enormous sexual compatibility and activity level was put in the deep freeze, and what followed felt like sexual rejection. In actuality, it was justifiable rejection of my behavior and attitude. Needless to say, I reacted to sexual rejection not by improving myself, but by getting deeply resentful. I caused this entire problem and basically set up the conditions that I used as an excuse for my own infidelity. Pretty sick puppy, I was. But that is what I meant in my previous post. Since October, my basic view of myself, the world, and her has radically changed, and I understand what happened now. I even remember vividly now the long ago hurts and episodes that I had suppressed and not remembered. They seem like yesterday. It is all coming back to me. The recent disintegration of my sense of self after finally puking out all my misdeed and hidden activities was needed but literally put me in the hospital. I have the motivation and intelligence to change and finally be the husband she always thought I had the potential to be, but now there is this gigantic hurt and quarter century of betrayal for her to deal with. Neither of us knows whether MB is powerful enough to save us after this, no matter how hard we work. But if we succeed, imagine the inspiration it might provide to others.

On another matter, she cannot really ride horses on those trails. They are heavily wooded and hilly (we are in Eastern Kansas), and horses are not allowed on those that are close to here. There is one that is also for horses, but it is about 20 miles east of here, and SSS would have to trailer in the horses. Nope. I am going to just have to give up the hiking. SSS feels bad about that, but it will not heal her if I go on these by myself. I feel like I need the green and wild places most days to keep my head comfortable, but I need her more.



Thanks, Mike for the suggestions.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by MarriedForever
[quote] I hope you are not feeling or showing any resentment or frustration over this, either...you did this to yourself and it's going to be a big fat LBer if you show and resentment or frustration.

I showed sadness about it last night. I couldn't help myself. I tried to avoid having it look like frustration or anger, but I think she interpreted my sorrow as frustration, and it hurt her. This is all so hard, but I am trying. Thanks, MarriedForever.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Well, since it has been such a short time since she found out all of this, I think she is doing quite well.

You can expect her to feel bad for several YEARS.

I think you are doing what you need to do, and all of that stuff will make her feel safer with you.

And please realize that your son's accident will bring her back feelings of fear.

Maybe you can just hold her and comfort her.

What great insight! I hadn't thought that his accident would intensify her feeling of fear about this, but it is so obvious now that you mention it. I expect her to feel bad about my betrayals as long as she lives, as will I, but if several years could help us enough to stay with each other and be reasonably happy, I will be incredibly grateful.

We are so relieved that he wasn't hurt. It was incredibly close to being a fatal accident. Totaling a car is a minor problem compared with what could have happened. Right now she is napping next to me on the sofa. I helped her fall asleep by stroking her hair. So, at least I am doing one thing right. Thanks, Believer.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 10:04 PM
GM

Please slow down your mind. You're thinking some great deed or action is going to make it all better. That's not how this is going to play out. It's going to take a lot of time.

Healing from what you've done is not an EVENT, it's a PROCESS!

This doesn't mean sit on yourass and quit trying. Quite the opposite! Continue to find ways to comfort sss and do the work that Steve H gives you, along with reading everything you can about the MB program.

It is many actions, by you and sss, over a long period of time that will allow her to heal.

Hang in there!
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
[quote=MarriedForever]
Quote
I hope you are not feeling or showing any resentment or frustration over this, either...you did this to yourself and it's going to be a big fat LBer if you show and resentment or frustration.

I showed sadness about it last night. I couldn't help myself. I tried to avoid having it look like frustration or anger, but I think she interpreted my sorrow as frustration, and it hurt her. This is all so hard, but I am trying. Thanks, MarriedForever.

I'm sorry to sound so harsh and you're probably not going to like me after this post, but....

GET OVER IT. Seriously, GM...do you know how freaking LUCKY and BLESSED you are that SSS is even CONSIDERING attempting recovery with you????

And you are moping over giving up hikes with your dogs?!?!!?

Holy cr*p, man...you don't know what you have and it's staring you in the face!

My FWH has given me grief over having to give up some IBs too, and let me tell you...it's a GREAT way to drain her lovebank.

If that's your goal, then good job! Keep up the moping [because that's what it IS...don't give me this sadness cr*p...you are MOPING like a child!]

Grow up and realize that any changes that happen in your life right now are YOUR FREAKING DOING. Yep, YOU did this to yourself, GM...you have NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME.

I'll try not to say "I told you so" if this keeps and she kicks you out. Honestly, you are driving yourself to ruin with this attitude.

Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 10:46 PM
I went through kind of the same thing about 8 years ago with my step-son. He was driving home from school and a guy made a left turn in front of him, while he was going about 50.

The weird thing is that I'd been telling all the kids NOT to waste my insurance by going to the ER for small things. My step-daughter was lazy and used it like a clinic.

So my step-son refused to take the ambulance to the ER and walked home about 2 miles, all beaten up and bloody. He showed up at my door. I rushed him to the ER, and there was NOTHING wrong with him.

It still haunts me to this day. Close calls are very traumatic too.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I showed sadness about it last night. I couldn't help myself.

Try harder.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by MarriedForever
Originally Posted by GreenMile
[quote=MarriedForever]
Quote
I hope you are not feeling or showing any resentment or frustration over this, either...you did this to yourself and it's going to be a big fat LBer if you show and resentment or frustration.

I showed sadness about it last night. I couldn't help myself. I tried to avoid having it look like frustration or anger, but I think she interpreted my sorrow as frustration, and it hurt her. This is all so hard, but I am trying. Thanks, MarriedForever.

I'm sorry to sound so harsh and you're probably not going to like me after this post, but....

GET OVER IT. Seriously, GM...do you know how freaking LUCKY and BLESSED you are that SSS is even CONSIDERING attempting recovery with you????

And you are moping over giving up hikes with your dogs?!?!!?

Holy cr*p, man...you don't know what you have and it's staring you in the face!

My FWH has given me grief over having to give up some IBs too, and let me tell you...it's a GREAT way to drain her lovebank.

If that's your goal, then good job! Keep up the moping [because that's what it IS...don't give me this sadness cr*p...you are MOPING like a child!]

Grow up and realize that any changes that happen in your life right now are YOUR FREAKING DOING. Yep, YOU did this to yourself, GM...you have NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME.

I'll try not to say "I told you so" if this keeps and she kicks you out. Honestly, you are driving yourself to ruin with this attitude.

I know. It was a spontaneous reaction, not calculated. I do very much need to grow up emotionally. It is ridiculous. I get teary at the drop of a hat now. Very emotionally volatile. I do appreciate your response. You are right in every respect.
I will stop this nonsense. Like I said before, I have been a child. A spoiled, petulant child who has never had to face consequences or learn boundaries. Its crunch time. I know it. Thanks, MF.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by tst
GM

Please slow down your mind. You're thinking some great deed or action is going to make it all better. That's not how this is going to play out. It's going to take a lot of time.

Healing from what you've done is not an EVENT, it's a PROCESS!

This doesn't mean sit on yourass and quit trying. Quite the opposite! Continue to find ways to comfort sss and do the work that Steve H gives you, along with reading everything you can about the MB program.

It is many actions, by you and sss, over a long period of time that will allow her to heal.

Hang in there!

Thnx. I needed that, too.
Posted By: nikko Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 11:13 PM


"On another matter, she cannot really ride horses on those trails. They are heavily wooded and hilly (we are in Eastern Kansas), and horses are not allowed on those that are close to here. There is one that is also for horses, but it is about 20 miles east of here, and SSS would have to trailer in the horses. Nope. I am going to just have to give up the hiking. SSS feels bad about that, but it will not heal her if I go on these by myself. I feel like I need the green and wild places most days to keep my head comfortable"


i was the one who suggested this.....is she against this or is it too much trouble to YOU to trailer in the horses??

if she is for this find a way. another suggestion is why have to do trails? can you ride the horses on the roads where you are? i do it all the time here. hubby takes dogs and i ride along with one of my horses. if this is important to you find a way. you may have to do things differently, and that may be uncomfortable for you, but it is up to you to try to work this out.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 11:15 PM
You won't have to "try" so hard if these changes come from your HEART and you make them because you WANT to, not because you feel "forced".



Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/02/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I do very much need to grow up emotionally. It is ridiculous. Very emotionally volatile. I do appreciate your response. You are right in every respect. I will stop this nonsense. Like I said before, I have been a child. A spoiled, petulant child who has never had to face consequences or learn boundaries. Its crunch time. I know it. Thanks, MF.

dude......I'm starting to feel your flair for the dramatic again...we don't need to be constantly shown your belly. Just keep your head down and work in the MB program.

Oh, and even DISCUSSING for a SECOND this trail thing is ridiculous, never mind 15 posts or whatever. SSS is uncomfortable for any reason about it? Done.

Get a treadmill. And if it's so important get one of those Jetson dog treadmills for the hounds....
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by nikko
"On another matter, she cannot really ride horses on those trails. They are heavily wooded and hilly (we are in Eastern Kansas), and horses are not allowed on those that are close to here. There is one that is also for horses, but it is about 20 miles east of here, and SSS would have to trailer in the horses. Nope. I am going to just have to give up the hiking. SSS feels bad about that, but it will not heal her if I go on these by myself. I feel like I need the green and wild places most days to keep my head comfortable"


i was the one who suggested this.....is she against this or is it too much trouble to YOU to trailer in the horses??

if she is for this find a way. another suggestion is why have to do trails? can you ride the horses on the roads where you are? i do it all the time here. hubby takes dogs and i ride along with one of my horses. if this is important to you find a way. you may have to do things differently, and that may be uncomfortable for you, but it is up to you to try to work this out.

Good suggestions. Too much traffic here, though, and busy railroad track. Also, the trailer is hers, and I don't know anything about horses LOL. Not that big of a deal though. It will work out. Mike is right.

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I do very much need to grow up emotionally. It is ridiculous. Very emotionally volatile. I do appreciate your response. You are right in every respect. I will stop this nonsense. Like I said before, I have been a child. A spoiled, petulant child who has never had to face consequences or learn boundaries. Its crunch time. I know it. Thanks, MF.

dude......I'm starting to feel your flair for the dramatic again...we don't need to be constantly shown your belly. Just keep your head down and work in the MB program.

And if it's so important get one of those Jetson dog treadmills for the hounds....

Maybe I could hook it up to a generator and save on electricity.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 03:42 PM
I had promised to post my list of extraordinary precautions some time ago and realized I had not. Here it is for comment or suggestions It is in outline format, which did not copy and paste with outline indents, but here it is anyway:

Plan for prevention:

1. Suborn self-interest to the interests of the marital relationship. Establish the needs of the spouse and the marriage as the single most important thing in my life. Though this realization has already occurred as a result of this crisis, this will be continually reinforced and patterned by long-term, dedicated study and implementation of the principles and basic concepts in the Marriage Builders course and lesson work, which will establish:
a. Meeting the emotional needs of spouse as my prime consideration.
b. Discussing with my spouse if I feel my emotional needs are not being met.
2. Recognize the clues and warning signs of risk-taking behavior, including:
a. Use of medications or any psychoactive substances, including alcohol, without my spouseā€™s knowledge, to achieve a feeling of just ā€œfeeling goodā€ rather than for legitimate and prescribed medical indications or in her presence in a social setting.
b. Having the idea occur that something I want does not first have to be enthusiastically agreed to by my spouse. Having any idea occur that cannot be discussed with or brought to the knowledge of my spouse. Finding myself withholding any emotion, activity, information or knowledge of any kind from my spouse. Basically, finding myself violating the principle of ā€œradical honestyā€.
c. Finding myself scheduling some activity that requires my being away from my spouse for a major part of a day, when the same activity could be scheduled to occur at a time when we could be together.
d. Being alerted by spouse of any forgetful, obsessive, or agitated behavior of mine.
3. In conversations with my wife, follow the principles of radical honesty, meeting her emotional needs, and relying on her (and my) ā€œ[censored] meterā€ to question whether my words are being formulated to deceive or achieve any other effect other than convey honest information or feelings to try to achieve any effect that is for my advantage rather than for our mutual benefit.
4. Discuss with my wife any feeling of anger or resentment or concern with regards to her or my sexual fulfillment.
5. Establish specific boundaries of behavior in our marriage and decide the specific consequences that would occur in the case of a violation of those boundaries, including:
a. Conversational boundaries with members of the opposite sex
b. What kinds of touching violate the boundaries of appropriateness, when interacting with members of the opposite sex
c. Boundaries regarding what kind of activities can be planned that involve private time with members of the opposite sex
d. Immediately inform spouse of any warning signs that occur with regard to the above.
6. Seek spiritual guidance and redemption by attending church regularly with my spouse and though meditation and prayer.

Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 03:51 PM

Well, great list, but I think it is more of an entire MB plan (ENs met, etc) than a list of EPs.

IMO, EPs are basically knowledge of actions/whereabouts and access to all communications (cell/email, etc), I would say...

I would consider not muddling it up, make it short and sweet so as a stand alone doc it can be referenced and held to scrutiny.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 05:12 PM

Here, I'm bored:


1. Suborn self-interest to the interests of the marital relationship. Establish the needs of the spouse and the marriage as the single most important thing in my life. Though this realization has already occurred as a result of this crisis, this will be continually reinforced and patterned by long-term, dedicated study and implementation of the principles and basic concepts in the Marriage Builders course and lesson work, which will establish:
a. Meeting the emotional needs of spouse as my prime consideration.
b. Discussing with my spouse if I feel my emotional needs are not being met.


1. I will actively take part in the MarriageBuilders counseling and program.

2. Recognize the clues and warning signs of risk-taking behavior, including:
a. Use of medications or any psychoactive substances, including alcohol, without my spouseā€™s knowledge, to achieve a feeling of just ā€œfeeling goodā€ rather than for legitimate and prescribed medical indications or in her presence in a social setting.

a. Avoid alcohol or contolled substances that may cloud my judgement on NC.

b. Having the idea occur that something I want does not first have to be enthusiastically agreed to by my spouse. Having any idea occur that cannot be discussed with or brought to the knowledge of my spouse. Finding myself withholding any emotion, activity, information or knowledge of any kind from my spouse. Basically, finding myself violating the principle of ā€œradical honestyā€.

b. Commit to Radical Honesty as defined by MB and seek that with my MB counselors.

c. Finding myself scheduling some activity that requires my being away from my spouse for a major part of a day, when the same activity could be scheduled to occur at a time when we could be together.

Avoid Independent Behavior and seek to schedule activities with spouse rather than alone.

d. Being alerted by spouse of any forgetful, obsessive, or agitated behavior of mine.
censored] meterā€ to question whether my words are being formulated to deceive or achieve any other effect other than convey honest information or feelings to try to achieve any effect that is for my advantage rather than for our mutual benefit.


MB Program not EP.

4. Discuss with my wife any feeling of anger or resentment or concern with regards to her or my sexual fulfillment.
5. Establish specific boundaries of behavior in our marriage and decide the specific consequences that would occur in the case of a violation of those boundaries, including:


a. Conversational boundaries with members of the opposite sex
b. What kinds of touching violate the boundaries of appropriateness, when interacting with members of the opposite sex
c. Boundaries regarding what kind of activities can be planned that involve private time with members of the opposite sex
d. Immediately inform spouse of any warning signs that occur with regard to the above.

All good!

6. Seek spiritual guidance and redemption by attending church regularly with my spouse and though meditation and prayer.

Not EP.

Interestingly, you sem to have missed the key concept -- transparency in all communications through elimination of, or full access to, access to cell phone records, texting, emails at home and work and email passwords, all voicemail accounts and voicemail passwords, land line phone records home and work, beeper records, chat programs, or any other possible way contact could be made with OW (present, past and future).

Constant communications of whereabouts and plans. EX: after work, WW calls me to say if she is stopping off for an errand and tells me where and when she will be home. If she goes shopping she tells me in advance what stores she is going to and when she will be home (I usually send a D with her).

You get the drift.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 06:34 PM
GM - I suggest you also check out some of the sex addictions sites - usually there are SA meetings, and RecoveryNation has a great one on-line. I think you might at least want to consider that idea.

Oddly, SA has very little to do with sex, or so they say, but has to do with intimacy and control and FOO issues.

You are very intelligent and can figure out if it is something you need to look at or not.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 06:38 PM
Thanks, Mike. Points are good except for the things that duplicate what is on my NC list. I have a separate NC list. This other stuff was advised by Steve Harley to address the other behaviors in the decades preceding the affair. The actual NC list is shown below:

The following are my planned procedures to assure spouse of no attempted contacts with OW or any future infidelity by me:
1. Provide to spouse all passwords and sign-onā€™s to my phone records and answer any question about any logged calls or investigate to our satisfaction any unidentified call.
2. Carry an operable GPS tracking device for my vehicle whenever away from home and make sure that the device is functioning and active. Provide this device to spouse to download the GPS data upon her request and answer any questions she may have regarding the data.
3. Carry my GPS-trackable cell phone whenever away from the home so that spouse can see my whereabouts on a map at any time.
4. Take a polygraph at any time upon spouseā€™s request.
5. Provide spouse a post-nuptial legally-binding agreement that would insure that she receives settlement sufficient to maintain current lifestyle and current location in any future divorce settlement based on any infidelity from this point forward, as long as we remain legally married.
6. Keep track of who I call and ID the numbers on the cellphone website call logs.
7. Study and master all materials recommended by the Marriage Builders program and implement them permanently.


The following represents my planned procedure in case of any attempt by OW to communicate with me or in the case of any appearance before me, either intentional or unintentional. These scenarios and procedures are as follows:

1. If she attempts to contact by telephone
a. Do not answer, if caller ID is recognizable as hers or any of her friends.
b. If an unknown number calls, and I answer and discover it is her or any of her friends, hang up immediately without speaking.
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible.
d. Inform our attorney of the attempt, if spouse so agrees
e. Provide spouse with all passwords and sign onā€™s to access my cell phone logs.
f. Save any voicemails from her for review by spouse and our attorney
2. If she attempts to contact me by email or instant message
a. Do not answer
b. Save the material for review by spouse and our attorney
3. If I receive any written materials from OW, either in the mail or by any other route
a. Do not open
b. As soon as possible give to spouse for her examination
c. Inform our attorney, if spouse agrees
d. Do not open any unidentified mail except in spouseā€™s presence
4. If I encounter OWā€™s vehicle while driving or parked, or any vehicle in which she is recognized to be a passenger
a. Look straight ahead and do not make eye contact or attempt to gesture or communicate verbally or non-verbally
b. Change route as soon as possible and as necessary until the vehicle cannot be seen.
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible
5. If I encounter OW in public or at any event or store
a. Do not make eye contact or attempt to gesture or communicate verbally or non-verbally.
b. Turn around and walk away
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible
6. If approached purposefully by OW at any place or any time
a. Do not make eye contact or attempt to gesture or communicate verbally or non-verbally
b. Turn around and move away quickly
c. If OW follows or is insistent, find a security officer and tell him/her that I am being followed and harassed and to please intervene
d. Inform spouse as soon as possible
e. Contact our attorney
7. If I encounter OW on any public transportation.
a. Do not speak, gesture, or acknowledge her presence
b. Disembark at the first opportunity
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by believer
GM - I suggest you also check out some of the sex addictions sites - usually there are SA meetings, and RecoveryNation has a great one on-line. I think you might at least want to consider that idea.

Oddly, SA has very little to do with sex, or so they say, but has to do with intimacy and control and FOO issues.

You are very intelligent and can figure out if it is something you need to look at or not.

Actually, I don't think it was SA. I am aware of that entity, not to mention skeptical about it. I think SA is more of an excuse, though I could be wrong. I have always had a strong libido but probably not beyond the normal range. Possibly at the upper end of normal, but I am no expert on that. SSS and I have talked at length, and we both believe that it was more of a lifelong sense of entitlement and ego, combined with anger and resentment at my situation in the marriage. This situation, as mentioned, was created by my own dominating and unloving behavior very early in the marriage, and SSS's adaptation was completely predictable. Her adaptation was then used by me as an excuse. Looking back on it, what I did is really not a mental disorder, but more of just a despicable and immature behavior pattern that includes some affinity for risk-taking. The latter is something that lasted past adolescence only because I never was held to account. The very thought of repeating such a thing makes me sick to my stomach, now. It seems an impossibility that I would ever repeat such behavior. But just in case it is some kind of compulsion that could reappear in future years, I developed the first list that I posted, in order to recognize the warning signs and head it off at the pass. Steve Harley recommended that I do that, and SSS certainly agrees.

To be a less clinical about it, the truth is simply that I have been a [censored], a horrible jerk, a complete A-hole all my adult life in my personal and marital life. In all other respects, I have been a kind, empathetic, principled, law-abiding, ethical, and honest man. Most of who I am is really very good, believe it or not. I have done many good things for people and for the community, and I have wide respect. But in my personal life, I have been a mess. That is the area I am dedicated to fixing belatedly. SSS knows this, but I have done so much damage, that neither of us knows what will happen.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Provide spouse a post-nuptial legally-binding agreement that would insure that she receives settlement sufficient to maintain current lifestyle and current location in any future divorce settlement based on any infidelity from this point forward, as long as we remain legally married.

Sufficient?

I thought the point was it would wipe you out.

What you describe is probably what she would get in a straight up divorce.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thanks, Mike. Points are good except for the things that duplicate what is on my NC list.

I hadn't heard that EP and NC were tackled separately. Jennifer just had us do one. It seems like a lot of the stuff on your first list was just MB protocols, not "extraordinary".

Perhaps due to your history, Steve thought it was a good exercise.


Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Provide spouse a post-nuptial legally-binding agreement that would insure that she receives settlement sufficient to maintain current lifestyle and current location in any future divorce settlement based on any infidelity from this point forward, as long as we remain legally married.

Sufficient?

I thought the point was it would wipe you out.

What you describe is probably what she would get in a straight up divorce.

I had 100%, but SSS suggested that be changed. I think the MB material worded it the way I showed it, also. The language there was suggested to me. As for me, I would go along with either, because there is no risk for me. Any EA for me in the future is off the table. Won't happen. One question was whether or not it should include the past. What is done is done. I am not sure how I would react to that suggestion that it include the past EA, as far as 100% of assets. I doubt that the attorney who represents me in the post-nup would even allow me to consider that. But for any future affairs, yes. She is going to ask Steve Harley again in the upcoming phone consult.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 07:46 PM
"In all other respects, I have been a kind, empathetic, principled, law-abiding, ethical, and honest man. Most of who I am is really very good, believe it or not. I have done many good things for people and for the community, and I have wide respect."

I do believe this.

Of course, all addicts deny they are addicted..................

But you are smart enough to look at the possibility. The thing is, whether you believe it or not, SA's who get treatment can do just fine.

And as far as the post-nup, I would NEVER urge anyone to sign anything that would wipe them out financially. Protecting your wife is one thing, destroying yourself quite another.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I had 100%, but SSS suggested that be changed. I think the MB material worded it the way I showed it, also.

citation?

Quote
The language there was suggested to me.

By whom? It sounds more like a pre-nup to me.

Quote
I am not sure how I would react to that suggestion that it include the past EA, as far as 100% of assets.

No, nor would I.

Quote
I doubt that the attorney who represents me in the post-nup would even allow me to consider that. But for any future affairs, yes.

Oh please, you can find an attorney that will write up whatever you want. The foregoing of an instant divorce is the just consideration.

I don't think it should ever be 100 percent. But I do think that a medium weighted settlement should be the price for her staying here and working on the marriage, and your price for the wretched history.

I'd suggest:

65-35 in any divorce at any time from this time forward for any reason.

85-15 for any divorce based on new infidelity by you.

The deal you propose is what she would get anyway. Don't waste the paper and legal fees.


Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I had 100%, but SSS suggested that be changed. I think the MB material worded it the way I showed it, also.

citation?

Quote
The language there was suggested to me.

By whom? It sounds more like a pre-nup to me.

Quote
I am not sure how I would react to that suggestion that it include the past EA, as far as 100% of assets.

No, nor would I.

Quote
I doubt that the attorney who represents me in the post-nup would even allow me to consider that. But for any future affairs, yes.

Oh please, you can find an attorney that will write up whatever you want. The foregoing of an instant divorce is the just consideration.

I don't think it should ever be 100 percent. But I do think that a medium weighted settlement should be the price for her staying here and working on the marriage, and your price for the wretched history.

I'd suggest:

65-35 in any divorce at any time from this time forward for any reason.

85-15 for any divorce based on new infidelity by you.

The deal you propose is what she would get anyway. Don't waste the paper and legal fees.

Excellent suggestion, Mike. Those numbers look good and reasonable. Our appointment with the attorney for the post-nup is tomorrow, and I will suggest those figures if SSS is in agreement.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
.....as far as 100% of assets. I doubt that the attorney who represents me in the post-nup would even allow me to consider that.

I didn't leave it up to our attorney. SMB & I "TOLD" him what needed to be in the Post-Nup. SMB would receive 100%....

I desired to show SMB how committed I was to do whatever it takes to recover this marriage and allow her to feel safe financially. SMB asked me for a post-nup, but didn't ask for 100% of our assets. I offered. Then I put it in writing.




Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:04 PM
Again, I think that suggestion is crazy. 85-15 split? Better go get your head examined. Any competent attorney will advise you not to sign.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
To be a less clinical about it, the truth is simply that I have been a [censored], a horrible jerk, a complete A-hole all my adult life in my personal and marital life. In all other respects, I have been a kind, empathetic, principled, law-abiding, ethical, and honest man. Most of who I am is really very good, believe it or not.

Not to be catty, but it speaks volumes that you say "most of who you are" is very good.

I'll put my community service accomplishments, elected office, local government and governance committees and boards, youth sports, church charities, etc right up there with you, but it is maybe 5 percent of "who I am". And that 5 percent, in retrospect, may have been an ill-advised attempt to escape from the unfulfilling marriage.

I have worked with hundreds of people in various aspects of community service. The vast amount either have lonely lives and are looking for company, have personal or professional agendas, or are looking to be lauded by some mantle in the community. I was 1 and 3. True altruists are few and far between.

I just looked for it briefly but there is a quote out there somewhere that says "If you want to find a bad marriage, look for a man involved in local government".
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Again, I think that suggestion is crazy. 85-15 split? Better go get your head examined. Any competent attorney will advise you not to sign.

What would you suggest that would be enough to keep SSS comfortable and going forward, and ppowerfully enalize GM for future straying?

BTW, I believe GM said a lot of his assets are tied up in a "personal trust" of some sort that doesn't include SSS. That would have to change.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
I'd suggest:

65-35 in any divorce at any time from this time forward for any reason.
This may be reasonable?




Originally Posted by Mike_C2
85-15 for any divorce based on new infidelity by you.

This is NOT a reasonable offer for a man that is repentent.

100% is the only reasonable offer for a BS to stay in the game.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
BTW, I believe GM said a lot of his assets are tied up in a "personal trust" of some sort that doesn't include SSS. That would have to change.

That's not accurate. He can offer the equivalent cash value of said assets, it's not necessary to offer the asset itself. That is what I had to do regarding my business assets.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by believer
"In all other respects, I have been a kind, empathetic, principled, law-abiding, ethical, and honest man. Most of who I am is really very good, believe it or not. I have done many good things for people and for the community, and I have wide respect."

I do believe this.

Of course, all addicts deny they are addicted..................

But you are smart enough to look at the possibility. The thing is, whether you believe it or not, SA's who get treatment can do just fine.

The 100% thing didn't sit well with SSS, either. I am a novice with this. Mike has some great suggestions, and we will use those figures in our meeting with the attorney. Thanks, Believer. Everyone here has been so great.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:20 PM


OH, BTW, sss, I am going to cover myass with a 15% protection plan in case I change my mind and have another affair.

Not a committed WS......

That is acting like the chicken at breakfast supplying the eggs instead of the COMMITTED pig supplying the bacon!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
BTW, I believe GM said a lot of his assets are tied up in a "personal trust" of some sort that doesn't include SSS. That would have to change.

That's not accurate. He can offer the equivalent cash value of said assets, it's not necessary to offer the asset itself. That is what I had to do regarding my business assets.

Yes, that is right. And our Trust attorney said that a post-nup constructs the entire divorce settlement thing and supercedes the Trust setup. The Trusts that are in my name, which are mine alone, have SSS as the beneficiary, and hers have mine as the beneficiary, but those things apply to survival, not divorce. We are pretty sure neither of us is going to shoot or poison the other LOL. The post-nup will take care of the actual numbers in case of a divorce.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:29 PM
I have no idea what their assets are. But I would suggest that IF he strays again, SSS be guaranteed enough to be able to maintain her lifestyle as it is now.

To suggest that GM be penniless is CRAZY. And I like and empathize much more with SSS than I do GM.

The aim of MB is to have both partners recover and prosper.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by tst
OH, BTW, sss, I am going to cover myass with a 15% protection plan in case I change my mind and have another affair.

Not a committed WS......

That is acting like the chicken at breakfast supplying the eggs instead of the COMMITTED pig supplying the bacon!

LOL.

I love your analogy, but SSS has told me unequivocally, that she could not stand the thought of me living out of a box. Anyway, even if we cannot make it, we will remain friends. As for me, the whole thing is moot. Infidelity is simply not something I am ever going to do again under any circumstances. That is why I would not object to a 100% settlement for her in case of future infidelity.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
As for me, the whole thing is moot. Infidelity is simply not something I am ever going to do again under any circumstances. That is why I would not object to a 100% settlement for her in case of future infidelity.

Then just do it!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I love your analogy, but SSS has told me unequivocally, that she could not stand the thought of me living out of a box. Anyway, even if we cannot make it, we will remain friends.

100% if you cheat again gives your wife 100% control of the purse strings. If she wants to be compassionate after that, it's entirely in her control. But it would ALL be her decision at that point. And it should be!
You would survive! And I know you would not need to live out of a shoe box!
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 08:47 PM
GM,

To me this is a point of truth for yourself. If you are NEVER going to have an affair, why cover yourass at all. It's NOT a mute point. It's been an entire marriage of deceipt. Offering 100% if you have another affair is the only tool I know of in your arcenal to have even a smiggen of hope to restore any trust.

This is not about what your wife want's, it's about how far are you willing to go for your wife. Are you willing to go 85% of the way, or 100% of the way?

Dunno? Only know that I went 100% of the way. It has paid great dividends in our recovery as a result.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 09:32 PM
Quote
Are you willing to go 85% of the way, or 100% of the way?

If it's not 100% then why should SSS stay? It is a choice to have an A. Are you not 100% sure that you won't decide to have another one? 15% is a backup plan. This is your chance to SHOW her that you mean what you say and it will go a long way.

She shouldn't hang around if you already have a backup plan "just in case".
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by tst
If you are NEVER going to have an affair, why cover yourass at all. It's NOT a mute point.

I think the preferred term now is "hearing impaired"...
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 10:29 PM

This is a place for a legal opinion, but the bottom line in these cases is there has to be a doctrine of "fairness".

In addition, you want to have the terms such that it is basically "fair enough" to not warrant protracted litigation.

In addition, as GM said, will a betrayed spouse literally clean another one out 100 percent....and stick to it for years to come? Or will family and kid pity, etc, wear that down...you want it to be a threat that can actually be stuck too.

I mean, 85 percent is a baseball bat to the head enough. I don't think anyone is going to rationalize "Well, I'll give up 85 percent of my wealth for this hooker helmet wash, but if it was 100 percent, no way!"

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by GreenMile
As for me, the whole thing is moot. Infidelity is simply not something I am ever going to do again under any circumstances. That is why I would not object to a 100% settlement for her in case of future infidelity.

Then just do it!

We will do whatever she wants in order to feel safe.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/03/09 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by believer
I have no idea what their assets are. But I would suggest that IF he strays again, SSS be guaranteed enough to be able to maintain her lifestyle as it is now.

To suggest that GM be penniless is CRAZY. And I like and empathize much more with SSS than I do GM.

The aim of MB is to have both partners recover and prosper.

And that is exactly what we are committed to do. To make that happen includes doing whatever makes SSS feel safe. If she does not feel safe with an agreement, it isn't going to do anything to help us. She will decide the numbers.

(The way things are going in the world, maybe we will ALL be living out of a box pretty soon.)
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/04/09 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
To be a less clinical about it, the truth is simply that I have been a [censored], a horrible jerk, a complete A-hole all my adult life in my personal and marital life. In all other respects, I have been a kind, empathetic, principled, law-abiding, ethical, and honest man. Most of who I am is really very good, believe it or not.

Not to be catty, but it speaks volumes that you say "most of who you are" is very good.

I'll put my community service accomplishments, elected office, local government and governance committees and boards, youth sports, church charities, etc right up there with you, but it is maybe 5 percent of "who I am". And that 5 percent, in retrospect, may have been an ill-advised attempt to escape from the unfulfilling marriage.

I have worked with hundreds of people in various aspects of community service. The vast amount either have lonely lives and are looking for company, have personal or professional agendas, or are looking to be lauded by some mantle in the community. I was 1 and 3. True altruists are few and far between.
I just looked for it briefly but there is a quote out there somewhere that says "If you want to find a bad marriage, look for a man involved in local government".


You have a good point and are probably right. Being involved in those things more than the usual person was obviously some form of substituting for what was missing in my marriage. It was both a refuge from problems and also pulled even more time away from our marriage, as well. None of them are for self-aggrandizement. I just enjoy the stuff. The music festival, astronomy newletter, an community anti-litter/cleanup thing, running the youth music program, etc. It isn't big profile or government stuff like you are referring to. I enjoy it when people thank me, because it is all volunteer. So, I admit that I like that. But to a great extent, it was an escape from my own problems in our marriage.

Sorry. Your main point about my saying "most of who I am" is not the right interpretation. I was referring to a lot more things about me than those organizations, but to the personal, to empathy, kindness, appreciation for beauty, for justice, etc. SSS would not have stayed with me through all these years, if she did not like me for many things that are good about me. But my behavior to her and my behavior in secret in our marriage has been unconscionable and in many ways, just plain evil. I don't know what percentage of "me" that represents. I do believe that we are all many different things in different circumstances, but we all carry complete and total responsibility for our own actions.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/04/09 03:35 AM
<quote> But to a great extent, it was an escape from my own problems in our marriage.</quote>

Have you quit them all? I did on d-day, everything, including an elected office. Wife quit all her community affairs, which were considerable

And, sure you can always say the big quarterly newspaper comes out in March or some other excuse, but your time is SSS's and hers alone now.


Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/04/09 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by sadsosad
I am waiting to see what he says about this. He has agreed to do it and he has started the process. I am hoping he does whatever he feels is needed for me to feel safe. Will he or can he actually put himself in my position instead of his? We will see. I do not want to make this decision. I hate this but then there were promises made by the one that had spent our lifetime together breaking all our promises. I was trusting him to be true and I was totally mislead.

GM, you were leading me to believe she wants to make the decisions about the post-nup arrangements. This is clearly not the case. She is expecting and "needing" you to take the lead on this. She wants to see how committed you are.

This is what I have been saying all along. She wants 100% committment. She is waiting to see if you are for real or if you still are the same liar & con you have been for the entire marriage. You can make all the difference with this choice or you can continue to create doubts in your wifes mind.



Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/04/09 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by sadsosad
I am waiting to see what he says about this. He has agreed to do it and he has started the process. I am hoping he does whatever he feels is needed for me to feel safe. Will he or can he actually put himself in my position instead of his? We will see. I do not want to make this decision. I hate this but then there were promises made by the one that had spent our lifetime together breaking all our promises. I was trusting him to be true and I was totally mislead.

GM, you were leading me to believe she wants to make the decisions about the post-nup arrangements. This is clearly not the case. She is expecting and "needing" you to take the lead on this. She wants to see how committed you are.

This is what I have been saying all along. She wants 100% committment. She is waiting to see if you are for real or if you still are the same liar & con you have been for the entire marriage. You can make all the difference with this choice or you can continue to create doubts in your wifes mind.

I have my appt. with the attorney for this in an hour. It should remove all doubt.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/04/09 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I have my appt. with the attorney for this in an hour. It should remove all doubt.

smile
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/05/09 09:38 PM

GM -- what does Steve Harley say about the polygraph? pro or con?
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/05/09 10:54 PM
I think he is in favor. He did not say anything negative about it. Whatever increases trust.

FYI. We are having a tough time with the attorney re: a 100% post nup that is retroactive. Or even 100% under any conditions. She is researching it but might refuse and have to refer us to a different attorney. I will know in a few days.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/05/09 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I think he is in favor. He did not say anything negative about it. Whatever increases trust.

FYI. We are having a tough time with the attorney re: a 100% post nup that is retroactive. Or even 100% under any conditions. She is researching it but might refuse and have to refer us to a different attorney. I will know in a few days.

I think 100 percent is not needed, may even be counter-productive to something that will stand up if challenged.

80, 85, maybe a dollar amount makes more sense to me.

It's not like 85 percent is not a sufficient deterrent.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
FYI. We are having a tough time with the attorney re: a 100% post nup that is retroactive. Or even 100% under any conditions. She is researching it but might refuse and have to refer us to a different attorney. I will know in a few days.

If your attorney is experienced in this area of law, she should be able to handle the research necessary to write the post-nup as you've requested, or she will refer you to someone that can. If it's crafted properly, you'll have no problem making 100% work.





Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 01:59 AM
These things aren't worth the paper they're written on. Any good lawyer will tell you that.

So what happens if greenmile ends the marriage due to an A sadsosad has? He gets nothing or he ends the M cause he just wants out?

Ridiculous
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
These things aren't worth the paper they're written on. Any good lawyer will tell you that.

So what happens if greenmile ends the marriage due to an A sadsosad has? He gets nothing or he ends the M cause he just wants out?

Ridiculous

If they are not worth the paper they are written on, why the hypothetical question?
But to answer your question, the post-nup can be, and usually is written to address this particular issue.


Stay the course GM! There are way too many BS's that accept crumbs and then make excuses as to why they have settled for them.

Your wife deserves what you are offering and you know this!

Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
These things aren't worth the paper they're written on. Any good lawyer will tell you that.

So what happens if greenmile ends the marriage due to an A sadsosad has? He gets nothing or he ends the M cause he just wants out?

Ridiculous

If they are not worth the paper they are written on, why the hypothetical question?
But to answer your question, the post-nup can be, and usually is written to address this particular issue.


Stay the course GM! There are way too many BS's that accept crumbs and then make excuses as to why they have settled for them.

Your wife deserves what you are offering and you know this!

I can tell you from experience that it will not hold up in court. All they aim to do is act as a deterent.

And any WS who would sacrafice their financial security for the rest of their lives has rocks in their head!

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
I can tell you from experience that it will not hold up in court.


Doubt that!! :crosseyedcrazy:
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 03:04 AM
Actually I had a friend in a similar position W had an A he made her sign everything to him....5yrs on she left again judge ruled post nup was could not be applied as too much had changed since then! She didn't leave for an A.

But tst, I guess you knew that already eh? Is that why you signed one soooo eagerly??? blush
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Actually I had a friend in a similar position W had an A he made her sign everything to him....5yrs on she left again judge ruled post nup was could not be applied as too much had changed since then! She didn't leave for an A.

<shrug> So you update them annually.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
These things aren't worth the paper they're written on. Any good lawyer will tell you that.

So what happens if greenmile ends the marriage due to an A sadsosad has? He gets nothing or he ends the M cause he just wants out?

Ridiculous

If they are not worth the paper they are written on, why the hypothetical question?
But to answer your question, the post-nup can be, and usually is written to address this particular issue.


Stay the course GM! There are way too many BS's that accept crumbs and then make excuses as to why they have settled for them.

Your wife deserves what you are offering and you know this!

I can tell you from experience that it will not hold up in court. All they aim to do is act as a deterent.

And any WS who would sacrafice their financial security for the rest of their lives has rocks in their head!

I think it would hold up in court if the WS drafting the agreement gives a recorded statement to the attorney for their records, but who knows what any given court is going to do? And yes, it is merely an extraordinary precaution and an instrument to help restore a sense of safety for SSS. Neither SSS nor I have any intention of failing at restoring our marriage and restoring love, and neither of us would let the other live in poverty no matter what the situation. Neither of our beloved grown sons would tolerate that from either of us, either. Even if I were to some day fail at this and SSS were to ever actually divorce me and get 100%, she would not actually keep it all to herself. She would provide some level of sustenance for me. If you doubt that, you don't understand how principled SSS is, and it works both ways. I could never let her go wanting, no matter what. That is why I said earlier that this post-nup has absolutely no real value to either of us except as a powerful tool for restoring her trust and her faith that I am committed, and also as a deterrent to help reinforce those that I develop for myself to safeguard my weaknesses.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
That is why I said earlier that this post-nup has absolutely no real value to either of us except as a powerful tool for restoring her trust and her faith that I am committed,


So in your opinion it wouldn't hold up, neither of you would abide by it, but it is a tool to rebuild "trust"??


Are you trying to win an Irony Award?


PS; Right after D-day, I tossed WW out, got an attorney, and sat down with WW to go over finances, explaining I was going to go to court on her adultery, put her OM on the stand, and absolutley burn through every dime we had, unless I got exactly what I wanted.

Then I laid out what I wanted.

She burst into tears: "But....what do you want me to do, live in a trailer?"

and I looked over the papers again and I said, slowly...."Jeez.....sweetheart....on your income, I don't think you could afford a trailer..... what about the OM, won't he love and support you?" (OM, janitor who had dumped her that day to stay with OMW.)

So, don't take for granted how compassionate SSS would be with a second knife to the heart.

And don't assume the sympathy of your sons' either.

BTW, do they know all the affair details? If you are depending upon them for some sort of future sympathy to get you thru a second infidelity, then SSS should apprise them of every dirty detail you have revealed.

Actually, should anyway.

Do they know everything?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Actually I had a friend in a similar position W had an A he made her sign everything to him....5yrs on she left again judge ruled post nup was could not be applied as too much had changed since then! She didn't leave for an A.

<shrug> So you update them annually.

Apparently Vladies friend was not that bright. wink

You're absolutely right Mike! It's a lot like a last will and testament, you update them whenever something changes.
A post-nup really is more simple than many think......


Vladie, (aka. myfamilyilove) Everybody has a friend who knows someone who......whatever! :RollieEyes:
If my memory is correct, you're not even in the US. skeptical
And why are you even on this or any thread - it's obvious you hate marriage builders advice from your tag line. grumble



Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
So, don't take for granted how compassionate SSS would be with a second knife to the heart.

And don't assume the sympathy of your sons' either.

That's right!

This is why a post-nup needs to be in place - to protect SSS from future danger!
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Actually I had a friend in a similar position W had an A he made her sign everything to him....5yrs on she left again judge ruled post nup was could not be applied as too much had changed since then! She didn't leave for an A.


Maybe your friend needed a better lawyer.


Quote
But tst, I guess you knew that already eh? Is that why you signed one soooo eagerly??? blush



He signed one so eagerly because he was willing to take the actions that demonstrated to his wife that he meant what he said. Too bad more FWS aren't willing to follow up their words with the actions. I would guess your WS falls into that category??

tst went to HIS WIFE'S attorney to have this document written. Her attorney told tst that he worked for HIS WIFE and that he should seek his own separate legal counsel about protecting himself. tst told attorney his concern was to protect his wife.

The attorney informed tst and his wife that these documents must be written very carefully so that they WILL hold up in court. That attorney (who worked for tst's wife) took the time to research and write up a solid post-nup that WILL hold up in court.

BUT BECAUSE tst took such extraordinary ACTIONS, his wife can feel safe in this marriage, not because she will get all the money if he leaves, but because she knows that nothing matters to him more than she does.

GM, if you are doing a post nup for no other reason than as a MOTIVATOR to NOT have any more affairs, then don't waste SSS's time or love.

IF you are doing it because you want to DEMONSTRATE to her in a concrete way that she is more valuable to you than any possession, then do it with pleasure.

I don't believe that a post-nup is appropriate in every, single situation. BUT in GM/SSS's, it is a must IMO.



Posted By: turtlehead Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
So what happens if greenmile ends the marriage due to an A sadsosad has? He gets nothing or he ends the M cause he just wants out?

If the post-nup is written correctly, it will say that in the event *GM* is unfaithful, then he forfeits the financial and material assets. Where in the world did you come up with the notion that GM would forfeit everything if SSS were unfaithful? That makes no sense.

Quote
And any WS who would sacrafice their financial security for the rest of their lives has rocks in their head!

How do you figure GM is sacrificing his financial security? All he has to do is remain faithful. If he decides he just has to have the company of someone new, then he can do the honorable thing and end the M *before* chasing after a bit of strange tail.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 03:34 PM
I agree, SMB. That's why we are doing it.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
So what happens if greenmile ends the marriage due to an A sadsosad has? He gets nothing or he ends the M cause he just wants out?

If the post-nup is written correctly, it will say that in the event *GM* is unfaithful, then he forfeits the financial and material assets. Where in the world did you come up with the notion that GM would forfeit everything if SSS were unfaithful? That makes no sense.

Quote
And any WS who would sacrafice their financial security for the rest of their lives has rocks in their head!

How do you figure GM is sacrificing his financial security? All he has to do is remain faithful. If he decides he just has to have the company of someone new, then he can do the honorable thing and end the M *before* chasing after a bit of strange tail.

Correct. It is not a sacrifice of anything to me. It is just the right thing to do. Actually, brutally necessary thing to do. And my financial security would not be placed in jeopardy for two reasons. 1) I will never do such a thing. and 2) I could return to practice medicine if needed. Even a part time job in a small clinic would keep me comfortable. This post-nup is really about one thing: protecting her and making sure she feels that, so that she can heal. It is not a threat to me at least in a survival sense.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
Where in the world did you come up with the notion that GM would forfeit everything if SSS were unfaithful? That makes no sense.

The proposition at one point was that, going forward from now, SSS gets a more weighty chunk, say, 60-65 percent. In their is a second infidelity by GM, that goes up to 85-100 as debated.

I odn't think that an infidelity byy SSS was discussed, but a drop to 50-50 for that does not seem unreasonbable.

I know my WW is very concerned that I will go have a revenge affair, and it probably effects her recovery right now.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
This post-nup is really about one thing: protecting her and making sure she feels that, so that she can heal. It is not a threat to me at least in a survival sense.


Maybe I've missed this in the past threads, but it seems to me you've been dodging the question of whether you exposed to your sons or not.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/06/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
This post-nup is really about one thing: protecting her and making sure she feels that, so that she can heal. It is not a threat to me at least in a survival sense.


Maybe I've missed this in the past threads, but it seems to me you've been dodging the question of whether you exposed to your sons or not.

Yes. They know all about it.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/10/09 01:21 AM
Don't know what to say. I "remembered" some other things and nuked SSS once again. It is so cowardly and so cruel, and she is so devastated, there are no words. I had put a few hurtful things in some sort of box, where it was "safe" and convinced myself that I had puked it all out before, then had an emotional breakdown and ended in the hospital. But these couple of things involved very meaningful things for SSS, because they trashed things that were part of her life. Everything that everyone here warned me not to do, and that she warned me not to do, I did. Holding back these few "details" after she had been repeatedly harmed and then began to feel a little better, is the worst thing I have ever done, even worse than the infidelities.

I wanted to explain why I have not been posting the last couple of days. My sadness and humiliation are exceeded only by the pain that SSS is experiencing, and I don't know if she can recover from this last insult. I am a coward, and I deserve nothing from here on out. I would like to think that we can still recover, but I just don't know now after what I had done. I cannot think of any other important facts that I have left out, but now I am doubting my own brain and doubting my entire life. I now know that there is something terribly and basically wrong with me. Is SSS wrong to continue trying? Can psychiatric treatment help me? Is it possible for MB to work for us now? I apologize to everyone here who has tried to help us and support us.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 02/10/09 01:35 AM
I hear ya. If you beat her every night and verbally abused her all day long it would not be as bad as what you actually DID DO TO HER.

EEEEEUUUUUUHHHHHKKKKKK!!!!!
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 02/10/09 01:41 AM
sigh

GM,

No one can tell you or SSS if you should stop trying. That is entirely up to you, more so SSS since she is the one that has suffered such trauma. My FWH's A wasn't decades or involved hookers so I can only imagine what must be going on in SSS's mind. However, there was trickle truth and omissions of truth and it nearly destroyed both of us. There was a time when I thought there was no way on earth to salvage our M yet here we are today in recovery.

If you are uncertain if there are any more big bombs out there, tell SSS you will continue to think back and let her know if something comes to mind that she would find important but do not intentionally hide the truth from her. Perhaps make a list of what you have already disclosed so you don't have too many things in your mind at one time. Having to recall 20+ years of lies...well I can only imagine.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/10/09 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by black_raven
sigh

GM,

No one can tell you or SSS if you should stop trying. That is entirely up to you, more so SSS since she is the one that has suffered such trauma. My FWH's A wasn't decades or involved hookers so I can only imagine what must be going on in SSS's mind. However, there was trickle truth and omissions of truth and it nearly destroyed both of us. There was a time when I thought there was no way on earth to salvage our M yet here we are today in recovery.

If you are uncertain if there are any more big bombs out there, tell SSS you will continue to think back and let her know if something comes to mind that she would find important but do not intentionally hide the truth from her. Perhaps make a list of what you have already disclosed so you don't have too many things in your mind at one time. Having to recall 20+ years of lies...well I can only imagine.

Yes. Tough to remember 20 years. Most of it was a long time ago. The things I forgot were some details that were important about the recently ended long affair. I do draw a little hope, when you say "nearly destroyed". We are certainly there. The rest is up to me to evaluate my memories in terms of what details would be important to HER, not to me. If they involved things of hers, then they are critically important. I did make a list last night and went over them. Only a few little things were actually new or important. I hope to God I have remembered all such things. The trickle approach is literally killing her and our chances. With my lifelong ingrained habit of compartmentalizing and peripheralizing painful things, I could use a professional, possibly with some experience in hypnosis. Mostly, I just need to grow up face the consequences of my actions.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/10/09 06:30 PM
Are you both still counseling with Steve Harley? If so, hows that going?
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The trickle approach is literally killing her and our chances. With my lifelong ingrained habit of compartmentalizing and peripheralizing painful things, I could use a professional, possibly with some experience in hypnosis. Mostly, I just need to grow up face the consequences of my actions.

Death by a thousand cuts. I'm there too.

Funny you say that about hypnosis. I'm reading her vanity wall and I see a diploma about "hypno-therapy".

I said "your name is spelled wrong". She goes, "no way" gets up and looks. "She said, people have been sitting in your chair for 20 years and nobody has ever seen that.'

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the school. Anyway, she said she doesn't do it anymore, because all it boiled down to was helping people stop smoking.

I'd like to engage her to enhance my memory of "Mike's 10 Best Pre-Marital Sexual Moments" since I was black out drunk for most of them...



Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The trickle approach is literally killing her and our chances.

I think there are two separate phenomenon. One is remembering stuff...that sux.

The other is changing your story. This is what bothers me about my WW (who has a memory like a steel trap).

As time goes by and we talk, "2" becomes "4" becomes "8" becomes some other correction, expansion or edification, and it just sux....
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 01:56 AM
****edit****
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
****edit****


Dude, you are just running around to all the threads tonite doing driveby shootings. Have some compassion for people in pain.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 04:52 AM
Well, as bad as it has been, SSS is now referring to me as a FWH. I am honored that she has gained enough confidence to post that. Yes, it has been very bad, but I am committed, and Steve Harley was very encouraging to us on the phone today. I know I can do this. The pain of the past is immense for her, but it is in the past, and a few years of hard work by me, and we can have many good years together going forward. Interestingly, Steve Harley felt that with so much in the past, remembering details that are painful but add nothing to the total picture are probably counterproductive at the moment. I really think it is all out there now. God, I hope so. It is sooooo easy to suppress memories that are painful to convey are worse to hear. If they are not substantive, don't aid SSS in filling in her picture, and I put my safeguards in place, they are of no help right now. Anyway, we had a very good day. There will be plenty of bad ones ahead. One day at a time. SSS is a special person to deal with this and want to go on giving me an extended chance to grow up and redeem myself and compensate her for a quarter century of betrayal. Some will consider her a fool to do this, but she is no fool. It is called love, and there is no way I am going to trash that.

Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 03:13 PM
Quote
It is called love, and there is no way I am going to trash that.

I agree what SH said about the details. Two decades of details might be overload for any BS.

You are very early into recovery GM. If you feel yourself slipping, please come here or call SH but do not break NC in ANY way. I don't think SSS could take it nor should she. Stay focused. It will be rough for a good while but NOTHING is worth going back to the hell the two of you have already passed through. NOTHING.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Well, as bad as it has been, SSS is now referring to me as a FWH.

I hope I'm not busting chops but I think that is waaaay premature. You won't see a ring on my hand for a very long time.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 04:40 PM
Thank, BR. I haven't broken that and won't. That won't be a problem for me. The OW is not someone I ever want to communicate with again.

We are both ready to work through this.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Well, as bad as it has been, SSS is now referring to me as a FWH.

I hope I'm not busting chops but I think that is waaaay premature. You won't see a ring on my hand for a very long time.

No offense taken, Mike. If you knew us and the whole picture, you might be more inclined. You and I are a lot alike. I have been thinking about your situation and am pulling for you, too. I am in no position to post on your thread, but my thoughts are with you. And thank you. You have helped me here more than you know.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 05:23 PM
GM - I did a 12 step program a few years ago, and the 4th step was making a fearless and searching inventory of myself, remembering all the people I'd wronged, etc. I took several months writing it all down, taking my time, being sure to list everything.

The odd thing was, even several YEARS later, I kept remembering something else that I'd forgotten.

I think Steve has the right idea. If your intent was to make a full confession, then leave it at that. I'm sure that YOU will think of more things over the years to come. Whenever I do that, I add it to my inventory in my head.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
No offense taken, Mike. If you knew us and the whole picture, you might be more inclined. You and I are a lot alike. I have been thinking about your situation and am pulling for you, too. I am in no position to post on your thread, but my thoughts are with you. And thank you. You have helped me here more than you know.

Damn.

You are good.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
No offense taken, Mike. If you knew us and the whole picture, you might be more inclined. You and I are a lot alike. I have been thinking about your situation and am pulling for you, too. I am in no position to post on your thread, but my thoughts are with you. And thank you. You have helped me here more than you know.

Damn.

You are good.

Seriously, MIke. That was from the heart. Not BS, even though the way you have helped me is by calling me on BS. I know I have a LONG and steep climb ahead of me, and I know that I might not make it.

BTW, I talked to the lawyer today, and she is declining to write the 100% post nup with retroactive. She told me that she cannot in conscience do that, that she would not be representing my interests. So, back to square one. Her mailed reply and refund will include the names of two attorneys who she feels would do that, and I am waiting for the snail mail on that. Might come today.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
BTW, I talked to the lawyer today, and she is declining to write the 100% post nup with retroactive. She told me that she cannot in conscience do that, that she would not be representing my interests. So, back to square one. Her mailed reply and refund will include the names of two attorneys who she feels would do that, and I am waiting for the snail mail on that. Might come today.

This is exactly why we used my WIFE'S attorney. He represented HER and wrote the post-nup to protect HER interests.

Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 10:32 PM
Like I've said, I think the numbers have to be something like 65 percent for any reason and 85 percent of new infidelity. Even if you can get some attorney to write up the 100 percent, it would probably at the very least ATTRACT a legal challenge form futrure adultering GM, and, in all honesty, (flame me) doesn't pass the ethical test. SSS and her kids won't let GM live on nada, not once the pain passes....
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/11/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by GreenMile
BTW, I talked to the lawyer today, and she is declining to write the 100% post nup with retroactive. She told me that she cannot in conscience do that, that she would not be representing my interests. So, back to square one. Her mailed reply and refund will include the names of two attorneys who she feels would do that, and I am waiting for the snail mail on that. Might come today.

This is exactly why we used my WIFE'S attorney. He represented HER and wrote the post-nup to protect HER interests.

I think that is what we will do. We got the names from the first attorney today, and we will call and have it be HER attorney. I think you are right about this. See my reply to Mike below.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Like I've said, I think the numbers have to be something like 65 percent for any reason and 85 percent of new infidelity. Even if you can get some attorney to write up the 100 percent, it would probably at the very least ATTRACT a legal challenge form futrure adultering GM, and, in all honesty, (flame me) doesn't pass the ethical test. SSS and her kids won't let GM live on nada, not once the pain passes....

I know you are technically more correct, but here is what Steve Harley told her: "Is he only 65% sure he will never cheat again"?

Of course I am 100% sure, and the point of this is to show that resolve. She deserves more compensation than I can give in two lifetimes. Right or wrong from a legal standpoint, I simply have to do this. I owe it to her. And again, neither she nor my sons, who still love me despite what I have done, would tolerate my being destitute.
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Like I've said, I think the numbers have to be something like 65 percent for any reason and 85 percent of new infidelity. Even if you can get some attorney to write up the 100 percent, it would probably at the very least ATTRACT a legal challenge form futrure adultering GM, and, in all honesty, (flame me) doesn't pass the ethical test. SSS and her kids won't let GM live on nada, not once the pain passes....

I know you are technically more correct, but here is what Steve Harley told her: "Is he only 65% sure he will never cheat again"?

Of course I am 100% sure, and the point of this is to show that resolve. She deserves more compensation than I can give in two lifetimes. Right or wrong from a legal standpoint, I simply have to do this. I owe it to her. And again, neither she nor my sons, who still love me despite what I have done, would tolerate my being destitute.

Okay, but you are skipping over my main point. I think for the gift of her not filing tomorrow, she should get 65-70 percent going forward no matter what, even if she just decides to bag it. The larger percentage 85 or 100 percent or whatever, is if you cheat.

And if they aren't going to leave you destitute, what the heck is this 100 percent exercise for?

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Like I've said, I think the numbers have to be something like 65 percent for any reason and 85 percent of new infidelity. Even if you can get some attorney to write up the 100 percent, it would probably at the very least ATTRACT a legal challenge form futrure adultering GM, and, in all honesty, (flame me) doesn't pass the ethical test. SSS and her kids won't let GM live on nada, not once the pain passes....

I know you are technically more correct, but here is what Steve Harley told her: "Is he only 65% sure he will never cheat again"?

Of course I am 100% sure, and the point of this is to show that resolve. She deserves more compensation than I can give in two lifetimes. Right or wrong from a legal standpoint, I simply have to do this. I owe it to her. And again, neither she nor my sons, who still love me despite what I have done, would tolerate my being destitute.



And if they aren't going to leave you destitute, what the heck is this 100 percent exercise for?

To 1) demonstrate right now 100% resolve and intent and 2) To put a giant blockade in any thoughts of cheating in case it is a compulsive behavior disorder that I would otherwise not have sufficient controls over at some future point, even if my own love bank were full.

I know that #2 is not the case with me, but SSS cannot afford to assume that right now. Not with my history and the shock of the revelations. #1 is crucial to help SSS heal and feel a sense of security that I will be faithful, even though 65% would accomplish financial security for her.

Mike, I have lied so well for so long that a drastic measure is needed in my case to even begin to restore any trust. It really is that simple. A total annihilation of her trust requires a drastic step in order to have any chance of restoring enough trust for us to have a marriage going forward. Without trust, there are no walls or vaults to the love bank. Deposits are not safe without trust.
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 01:44 AM
Just a thought - say this agreement will stand up in court, how is sss going to prove that you cheated? What proof would a court accept? You need to be pretty clear on this.

No offence GM but if you were to cheat again, you would hardly be willing to admit it!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
Just a thought - say this agreement will stand up in court, how is sss going to prove that you cheated? What proof would a court accept? You need to be pretty clear on this.

No offence GM but if you were to cheat again, you would hardly be willing to admit it!

Well, that is a great question. Since I am retired, I am not gone for any major blocks of time during the day or night. When I am, I carry a trackstick and a GPS locator on my cellphone and/or I am with someone else who she knows and trusts. If my story does not match up with my location, then it is highly suspicious. My cell phone records are available to her at all times, since she has my account log in and password. I have to account for any call she questions. Any suspicions would trigger a private investigator, and that would yield hard evidence, as well as phone records. My financial accounts are also shared and open.

But all of that is nonsense. Here is the real answer to your question: The post-nup is RETROACTIVE. If she divorces me for any reason or none at all, she gets 100% straight up. She could do that to me the day after the agreement is signed. That is why it is so hard to find an attorney who will do this. SSS would not in a million years abuse this. If she simply got sick of me and decided to throw me out and take all of our assets, she could. This agreement is so drastic and leaves me so vulnerable, that is why the attorney would not write it up.

I have posted before, and it is true: Neither of us wants to live without the other, unless of course there is further infidelity on my part. I trust her totally. If you knew her, you would understand why there is no risk on my part with this agreement. Even if she suddenly changed her persona and values and just blindsided me out of the blue, our sons would never speak to her again. They are her reason for living. There are many reasons why this agreement is safe for me and the the right thing to do for her.
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 03:51 AM
All good then! The different percentages for cheating and not cheating were throwing me a bit. 100% whatever the cause is definitely the way to go. Personally I think you're :crosseyedcrazy: but once you're both happy thats all that counts
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by myfamilyilove
All good then! The different percentages for cheating and not cheating were throwing me a bit. 100% whatever the cause is definitely the way to go. Personally I think you're :crosseyedcrazy: but once you're both happy thats all that counts

Yep. Now all I need to do is find a lawyer who will write it up. The last one wouldn't for ethical reasons, but it cost me about $330 to find that out LOL
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
If she divorces me for any reason or none at all, she gets 100% straight up. She could do that to me the day after the agreement is signed.

Then I am not sure the drastic nature of this doesn't put handcuffs on her in a way.

Quote
If you knew her, you would understand why there is no risk on my part with this agreement. Even if she suddenly changed her persona and values and just blindsided me out of the blue, our sons would never speak to her again.

Do you ever read what you've written before clicking "submit"?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
If she divorces me for any reason or none at all, she gets 100% straight up.


Our post-nup is written the same way.
I'm glad to hear you are seeking this.

What Steve Harley said about 100% committment is 100% true!

It's like Hernando Cortez buring the ships!


Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
If you knew her, you would understand why there is no risk on my part with this agreement.

How convenient, no risk, for you. No risk for you. No risk for you.

High fives all around???

No risk for you.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
If you knew her, you would understand why there is no risk on my part with this agreement.

GM, do you see what both Mike and Pepperband are saying to you?

If you don't feel there is any risk for YOU!
Then this action is kinda meaningless to YOU!

Do you get this?

What your wife needs (IMO, all BS's deserve) is heartfelt changes.

What you are demonstrating is the WRONG attitude and attaching that attitude to this action. Won't help sss or you if the heart and the action don't line up!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 03:21 PM
Quote
in case it is a compulsive behavior disorder

I think it is disingenuous to imply that your near 3 decades of immorality might be a "disorder". All while acting as a pillar in the medical community.
If you actually have a "disorder" , tell SSS to have the courts assign adult conservertorship over to your wife and sons, for the remainder of your life. You are obviously too ill to take care of your own business.

You cannot have it both ways.
Are you immoral or are you ill?

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
[quote=GreenMile]
Quote
If you knew her, you would understand why there is no risk on my part with this agreement. Even if she suddenly changed her persona and values and just blindsided me out of the blue, our sons would never speak to her again.

Do you ever read what you've written before clicking "submit"?
I don't understand what you are objecting to, Mike. Is there something wrong here? Please explain. Did I not word that well? Maybe I am just dumb. Not only would she not abuse a retroactive 100% post-nup, but she knows that our beloved sons would find that abhorrent as well, and they are her life. It just is not going to happen. Or maybe you are saying again that if it is no risk, then why draw it up that way? I wrote earlier that the whole thing is a statement of commitment and puts a huge roadblock in front of me, in case my problem is compulsive and rears its ugly head in my mind in the future. That is the reason for drawing it up in that manner if we can find an attorney who will do it. It shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Quote
in case it is a compulsive behavior disorder

I think it is disingenuous to imply that your near 3 decades of immorality might be a "disorder". All while acting as a pillar in the medical community.
If you actually have a "disorder" , tell SSS to have the courts assign adult conservertorship over to your wife and sons, for the remainder of your life. You are obviously too ill to take care of your own business.

You cannot have it both ways.
Are you immoral or are you ill?
I don't believe it is a disorder. I am a grown up, and I take responsibility for my actions. I have been immoral and cruel. As far as I am concerned, the person who I was is dead. But the worry on my wife's part is that it could be a "disorder". The 100% post-nup is partly to diminish her fears that it could be a disorder, and that I would repeat this at some point. She is worried about that possibility, because after this, she has reason to worry about any possibility, even though she recognizes the change in me.

It seems that my explanations for wanting to structure this agreement in such a drastic way are being seen as some kind of ruse by me. TST knows what I am saying. It is a precaution. That's all. It is for both reducing doubt and mistrust by SSS and for building safeguards to protect my own weaknesses. It may sound disingenuous to you, but people are capable of changing. People grow up sometimes, even 50 years too late. I have to believe that I can and am. Hope and determination are what keeps us all alive. I don't mean that as lecture. I am the one who has been horrible. But I have to believe that I am changing and can change myself for the better forever, or why am I even making these efforts?
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by GreenMile
If you knew her, you would understand why there is no risk on my part with this agreement.

How convenient, no risk, for you. No risk for you. No risk for you.

High fives all around???

No risk for you.

No risk that she will abuse it. Gigantic risk to me, if I abuse it. Does that make sense?
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 05:48 PM

You could sell ice to Eskimoes, I'll give you credit for that.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:03 PM
GM in my opinion, you are not trying very hard on this postnup thing. Here is a simple thing you can do NOW. Give your wife what you have been giving to skanks for twenty years. How much have you spent on skanks per month? 1500 a month? Then it is this amount over 20 years....

1. Get $300,000.00 or $400,000.00 together in one account.

2. Go to that bank and have the bank write up a cashiers check for that amount for you with your wife's name on it. (A check for $400,000.00 is AT LEAST the amount you spent on prostitutes and skanks in 20+ years).

3. Put the check in a separate bank account with only her name on it. Take home the signature page for her to sign.

4. On Valentines Day, present her with a nice box of chocolates with either the check, or the signature page to her private account in there. Wrap it up pretty.

NO WOMAN COULD REFUSE THIS GIFT FROM YOU!!!!!

Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:12 PM
Let me say one more thing. Any man like you who is NOT willing to put his money where is mouth is (er...ah....was!) is not anyone to be trusted, is not a real man,, and is not going toward recovery, and is not truly remorseful.

You paid out the families money on these skanks! Put your money where your mouth is and give your wife AT LEAST THAT MUCH FAMILY MONEY......back!!!!

FORGET THE POSTNUP, GIVE HER THE CASH NOW!!!!!!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:24 PM
Re: Eskimos.

LOL. I mean that in a good way.

BTW, how much should I charge them, MIke?
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:31 PM

this is what I am hearing:

You can't get any lawyer to write up a pre-nup that would hold.

Your sons and W would not let you suffer the impact of the proposed settlement anyway.

Why not just write one up on a cocktail napkin and say you will cut off your right hand if you get caught cheating again?

Fits all the above criteria.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Stellakat
GM in my opinion, you are not trying very hard on this postnup thing. Here is a simple thing you can do NOW. Give your wife what you have been giving to skanks for twenty years. How much have you spent on skanks per month? 1500 a month? Then it is this amount over 20 years....

1. Get $300,000.00 or $400,000.00 together in one account.

2. Go to that bank and have the bank write up a cashiers check for that amount for you with your wife's name on it. (A check for $400,000.00 is AT LEAST the amount you spent on prostitutes and skanks in 20+ years).

3. Put the check in a separate bank account with only her name on it. Take home the signature page for her to sign.

4. On Valentines Day, present her with a nice box of chocolates with either the check, or the signature page to her private account in there. Wrap it up pretty.

NO WOMAN COULD REFUSE THIS GIFT FROM YOU!!!!!

Stella, there are so many people here who mean well and make sense. I try to read what they say and take it to heart, and they are helping me. You are not one of them.

Stella, this is not about money. She does not want to PAID OFF. This is a matter of the heart...and of the future between two people who still love each other and want to repair their marriage. As Mike said to me, "Do you read your stuff before you push the SUBMIT button"? Are you actually a BS or a WS, or are you just lurking here for entertainment?
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:49 PM
Wow. I'm not sure where the wires got crossed but I think GM is saying that there is no risk to him because he knows sss is not an abusive woman so he trusts that she will not use the post-nup just to stick it to him out of malice. And if for some reason, sss did, her children would be peeved with her because they think better of their mother. What's wrong with that? confused
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
this is what I am hearing:

You can't get any lawyer to write up a pre-nup that would hold.

Your sons and W would not let you suffer the impact of the proposed settlement anyway.

Why not just write one up on a cocktail napkin and say you will cut off your right hand if you get caught cheating again?

Fits all the above criteria.

I have been to only one attorney. She wouldn't do it and gave me two other names. I will make sure we do it with one who agrees to be representing only my wife, not me. The second comment is correct, but any largesse by her would be very limited. Your third suggestion would not accomplish the actual goal IMO (I know you are just joking). The goal is to guarantee that she will not lose her home, land, and lifestyle if I am unfaithful ever again. The 100% is to give her total control over her future with me, which is the most important thing for her. She would control whatever she would be willing to help me with in that eventuality. It would be at her discretion. The 100% is also to show my level of commitment. As for the money, itself, I would much rather live well and be in love with my wife and remain in this beautiful home than to hurt her ever again and live off her generosity in some tiny bungalow. The retroactive aspect, again, is to give her total control. This should not be so hard to understand.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Wow. I'm not sure where the wires got crossed but I think GM is saying that there is no risk to him because he knows sss is not an abusive woman so he trusts that she will not use the post-nup just to stick it to him out of malice. And if for some reason, sss did, her children would be peeved with her because they think better of their mother. What's wrong with that? confused

Thank you. You say it so much better and simpler than I. I have always been addicted to words. Another bad habit, I guess.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Wow. I'm not sure where the wires got crossed but I think GM is saying that there is no risk to him because he knows sss is not an abusive woman so he trusts that she will not use the post-nup just to stick it to him out of malice. And if for some reason, sss did, her children would be peeved with her because they think better of their mother. What's wrong with that? confused

Thank you BR. You say it so much better and simpler than I. I have always been addicted to words. Another bad habit, I guess.


Sorry. The site was stuck, and I pushed the SUBMIT button again. I don't know how to get rid of a double post.
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 07:17 PM
You're welcome. Comes from years of practice of filtering.

To delete a post, hit the "edit" button. A "delete" button will show up to the far right under the post. That bit of information will cost you $400,000. I accept AMEX and wires. stickout

But getting thanked twice will do. grin
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
That bit of information will cost you $400,000.


rotflmao
Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 08:17 PM
I am here for the entertainment. lashes
Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I have been to only one attorney. She wouldn't do it and gave me two other names. I will make sure we do it with one who agrees to be representing only my wife, not me.

A document signed by you without legal counsel would be MORE binding?

Quote
The goal is to guarantee that she will not lose her home, land, and lifestyle if I am unfaithful ever again. The 100% is to give her total control over her future with me, which is the most important thing for her.[quote]

So sign the property over to her now, and set up an annuity solely for her. You seem to have the means.

[quote] She would control whatever she would be willing to help me with in that eventuality. It would be at her discretion.

WADR, I think you return to this refrain because with decades of dominance and manipulation you feel comfortable winning any future tussle with guilt and your other considerable skills.



Posted By: Mike_C2 Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Originally Posted by Stellakat
GM in my opinion, you are not trying very hard on this postnup thing. Here is a simple thing you can do NOW. Give your wife what you have been giving to skanks for twenty years. How much have you spent on skanks per month? 1500 a month? Then it is this amount over 20 years....

1. Get $300,000.00 or $400,000.00 together in one account.

2. Go to that bank and have the bank write up a cashiers check for that amount for you with your wife's name on it. (A check for $400,000.00 is AT LEAST the amount you spent on prostitutes and skanks in 20+ years).

3. Put the check in a separate bank account with only her name on it. Take home the signature page for her to sign.

4. On Valentines Day, present her with a nice box of chocolates with either the check, or the signature page to her private account in there. Wrap it up pretty.

NO WOMAN COULD REFUSE THIS GIFT FROM YOU!!!!!

Stella, there are so many people here who mean well and make sense. I try to read what they say and take it to heart, and they are helping me. You are not one of them.

Stella, this is not about money. She does not want to PAID OFF. This is a matter of the heart...and of the future between two people who still love each other and want to repair their marriage. As Mike said to me, "Do you read your stuff before you push the SUBMIT button"? Are you actually a BS or a WS, or are you just lurking here for entertainment?



GM, I said this yesterday to SSS in <cough> similar circumstances: You don't have to answer everyone in this board.

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
You're welcome. Comes from years of practice of filtering.

To delete a post, hit the "edit" button. A "delete" button will show up to the far right under the post. That bit of information will cost you $400,000. I accept AMEX and wires. stickout

But getting thanked twice will do. grin

Excellent. Thanks.

Excellent. Thanks
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 09:43 PM
OK. LOL
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I have been to only one attorney. She wouldn't do it and gave me two other names. I will make sure we do it with one who agrees to be representing only my wife, not me.

A document signed by you without legal counsel would be MORE binding?

Quote
The goal is to guarantee that she will not lose her home, land, and lifestyle if I am unfaithful ever again. The 100% is to give her total control over her future with me, which is the most important thing for her.[quote]

So sign the property over to her now, and set up an annuity solely for her. You seem to have the means.

[quote] She would control whatever she would be willing to help me with in that eventuality. It would be at her discretion.

WADR, I think you return to this refrain because with decades of dominance and manipulation you feel comfortable winning any future tussle with guilt and your other considerable skills.

I don't know what "WADR" means.

I can understand why you think that may be true, but I am not thinking in that way. I don't need any future tussles, and I can go practice in a clinic part time, if needed, and be financially viable without tussles, unless I become disabled. Seriously, I am not greatly worried about what this would mean to me, because I have no intention of it ever coming to that. What is needed now is for SSS to have a sense of security and for it to be me that guarantees that for her. If a post nup of the nature that Steve Harley describes is the best thing, then that is what I want to do.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 09:57 PM
With All Due Respect
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Stellakat
I am here for the entertainment. lashes

Cheaper than the movies I guess, and interactive, too. Not a bad choice actually.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 02/12/09 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by tst
With All Due Respect
Ah! Thnx.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 09:07 PM
I need help. I desperately need help.

After all these months, SSS is concluding that I never loved her, that it was all a calculated USE of her one and only life for my own purpose. I am falling apart. What if that is true? What if the person I was simply did not love her ever? Maybe that explains it all. I destroyed her. But I can't live without her. She is everything to me. I love her so deeply it hurts. All I want to do is spend the rest of my life with her and give her everything she was denied for so long, to really be her husband finally. All I want is to make her happy. But now she cannot trust it or believe me. What do I do? Please help me. Someone please help me. I love her now. That is all I know. Why did it take me so long? Can I save this? Can she ever love me again? Oh, God. Someone please help me.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 09:11 PM
GM - I have been watching her thread, and I still think things are very, very hopeful. She is going through the recovery process and working on her own issues, which is exactly what she needs to be doing right now.

And you need to keep working on your issues.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by believer
GM - I have been watching her thread, and I still think things are very, very hopeful. She is going through the recovery process and working on her own issues, which is exactly what she needs to be doing right now.

And you need to keep working on your issues.

Thnx, Believer. I feel like my whole life has been a mistake.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 09:45 PM
I do not know how you could have lived your life this way. You should be in jail or something. Why do you want to remain married anyway? You were not acting married all these years. I cannot see how in any way, you have loved her.

It seems to me like you have had some big "health scare" like a heart attack, diagnosis of cancer, diabetes, or heart problems to cause you to give up the other woman and say you want to stick with your wife now....perhaps because you dont want to grow old and sick on your own after all, she is a NURSE. There is some motivation NOW, and I would like to know the REASON, the real reason that NOW you are trying to resurrect your marriage you ruined all these years. It is a selfish reason I am sure.

I would urge her to divorce but I am not going to. I do not know quite how you could make up 25 years to someone but if you figure out a way to do it, more power to you.

What I do not understand is how someone as corrupt as you could really change and want to recover the marriage. I picture you cheating on her again and again as is your nature. Even if she does continue to stay with you.

How can you change?
How can you make up for 25 years abusing your wife and fam?
How can you even pretend to love her?
What is there that could make up for her ruined life and marriage now at this late date?
What caused you to want your marraige back NOW?


These are my questions and maybe her questions also.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 09:47 PM
GM:

Your line:
Quote
I feel like my whole life has been a mistake.

It has been in many ways for at least the last 30 years.

It DOESN'T have to BE GOING FORWARD.

Do you think its tough NOW?

Just wait. The mirror gets larger and larger. You ARE the only one to look into it and see the reflection.

SSS has ALOT to process before she can make a statement that she is done. And then BE DONE.

If she processes it ALL, then she can decide to stay. Have you told her EVERYTHING?

LG
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Stellakat
I do not know how you could have lived your life this way. You should be in jail or something. Why do you want to remain married anyway? You were not acting married all these years. I cannot see how in any way, you have loved her.

It seems to me like you have had some big "health scare" like a heart attack, diagnosis of cancer, diabetes, or heart problems to cause you to give up the other woman and say you want to stick with your wife now....perhaps because you dont want to grow old and sick on your own after all, she is a NURSE. There is some motivation NOW, and I would like to know the REASON, the real reason that NOW you are trying to resurrect your marriage you ruined all these years. It is a selfish reason I am sure.

I would urge her to divorce but I am not going to. I do not know quite how you could make up 25 years to someone but if you figure out a way to do it, more power to you.

What I do not understand is how someone as corrupt as you could really change and want to recover the marriage. I picture you cheating on her again and again as is your nature. Even if she does continue to stay with you.

How can you change?
How can you make up for 25 years abusing your wife and fam?
How can you even pretend to love her?
What is there that could make up for her ruined life and marriage now at this late date?
What caused you to want your marraige back NOW?


These are my questions and maybe her questions also.

Thanks for the help, Stella. You are so sweet and supportive.

I wish I had the answer to all of your questions except the part about pretending to love her. That one is easy. I love her. The realization of that was brutal... and recent. It had nothing to do with my health.

She is the best person I have ever known.

As for cheating in the future, I feel it is impossible. But just in case, I have written a detailed plan to protect my emotional needs and vulnerabilities, and I keep studying that to make sure it is automatic. None of that is of any use, if she cannot make a go of it with me, and I am in a state of horrific fear of that. The damage is so great. I feel so hopeless. I don't want to end up back in the psych ward. When I look forward, I feel good. When I look back, I want to die.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by lousygolfer
GM:

Your line:
Quote
I feel like my whole life has been a mistake.

It has been in many ways for at least the last 30 years.

It DOESN'T have to BE GOING FORWARD.

Do you think its tough NOW?

Just wait. The mirror gets larger and larger. You ARE the only one to look into it and see the reflection.

SSS has ALOT to process before she can make a statement that she is done. And then BE DONE.

If she processes it ALL, then she can decide to stay. Have you told her EVERYTHING?

LG

It has been, at least my personal life, a mistake. I wish I had a time machine and could go back and do my adult life differently. I do see going forward as the only way to keep on living. But that mirror is huge, and I see it 24 hours per day.

Yes, I have told her everything. There are little details that I remember now and then, and I am making a list. but there is nothing substantial remaining. Steve Harley said that these kinds of details were not important.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
. But I can't live without her. She is everything to me. I love her so deeply it hurts. All I want to do is spend the rest of my life with her and give her everything she was denied for so long, to really be her husband finally. All I want is to make her happy.

This reeks of manipulation.
Sorry.
You do sound desperate, but you sure don't sound loving .


Quote
But now she cannot trust it or believe me.

True.


Quote
What do I do? Please help me. Someone please help me.

Help you what?
Help you feel better.
Sorry.
The pain you feel is the rent come due.


Quote
I love her now. That is all I know.

It sounds like you need her. You don't sound loving at all.


Quote
Why did it take me so long?

Go back to the psychiatrist for the answer to that question, if you really want an answer. It is an inappropriate question to ask of strangers.
I believe you are sick. Still sick. See a physician when you are sick.


Quote
Can I save this?

Save what? The sham of a marriage?
Why would anyone want to save something so thoroughly false?


Quote
Can she ever love me again?

Not if you continue these manipulations and dramatic breast beatings.
Meaningless.
Not loving.
Very self focused.



Quote
Oh, God. Someone please help me.

Again, you need to make a call to your psychiatrist when you get this worked up.
It's not SSS's job to fix your brokenness. It's not ours.

I am sure that these pity parties you throw for yourself used to get you some milage - especially with the paid OW.

Call your psychiatrist. You are ill.


Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 10:49 PM
Well, yeah - he has not acted honorably, he has lived a life of lies, etc. etc. But NOW he says he wants to change. And he DOES seem remorseful. So we can keep giving him cyberslaps, or try to help him.

His wife has been warned, and I really don't see the point of bringing up the past over and over again, and beating him up.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Well, yeah - he has not acted honorably, he has lived a life of lies, etc. etc. But NOW he says he wants to change. And he DOES seem remorseful. So we can keep giving him cyberslaps, or try to help him.

His wife has been warned, and I really don't see the point of bringing up the past over and over again, and beating him up.

He needs a psychiatrist. He is sick.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 11:00 PM
Okay, we'll send him to a shrink.

Personally, I think he is a SA. He doesn't think so.

But I'm sure he could go and get "help" and snow the guy and continue on his path.

He either IS going to change, or he is NOT. I think his wife is preparing for either alternative.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by believer
He either IS going to change, or he is NOT. I think his wife is preparing for either alternative.

That's true.

To be honest with you B, I don't get the sense of true remorse . My nose is twitching the same way it did when he first started posting. He lied to the board and tried to manipulate the members into feeling sorry for him.
It is 100 % still all about him. Even the "I love her so much I can't live without her." .... is self focused.
B, I feel really sorry for him believe it or not. I am conflicted. I feel sorry for him but I realize that the worst thing for him is pity. Our pity feeds his self focus. He needs professional attention. Continually and long term. He truly is sick. If he had cancer, we'd tell him to see an oncologist.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 11:21 PM
Well, I'll defer to you Pep.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because his wife says that he is very kind, and cares about other people - except for her.

He has taken care of his wife and family, so he gets some points there.

The risky sex (from someone that should know better) is troubling.

That is why I think he is a SA.

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 11:28 PM
Thnx, Believer.

Regardless of whether I deserve it, the pain is unbearable. It feels like the world is coming to an end.

I want to do what is right. I have spent 30 years doing what is wrong and living a lie. I want to stay with SSS and give her all my love, but perhaps it will not be possible for her. I know it is possible for me. And I know that I will be faithful and have put the safeguards in place to assure that. I just was reaching out for people here to encourage me and help me at this terribly down moment.

I look at this forum as a place to get advice that helps supplement what the MB program can do. But I keep running into people who just want to trash me and vent their anger and suspicion and discourage me and SSS and get us to divorce. They feel that once a liar and manipulator, always one. Once a cheater, always one. Maybe they know me better than I know myself, or maybe they feel so much sympathy for SSS, that they feel obligated to protect her by discouraging us from trying. But sometimes people do change and seek redemption and succeed at it. I just want to be one of those people, that's all. No psychiatrist is going to help with that. I will be that person, regardless of what happens to my marriage.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by believer
He either IS going to change, or he is NOT. I think his wife is preparing for either alternative.

That's true.

To be honest with you B, I don't get the sense of true remorse . My nose is twitching the same way it did when he first started posting. He lied to the board and tried to manipulate the members into feeling sorry for him.
It is 100 % still all about him. Even the "I love her so much I can't live without her." .... is self focused.
B, I feel really sorry for him believe it or not. I am conflicted. I feel sorry for him but I realize that the worst thing for him is pity. Our pity feeds his self focus. He needs professional attention. Continually and long term. He truly is sick. If he had cancer, we'd tell him to see an oncologist.

My focus is on SSS. When she is down, I am down. When she is up, I am up. Her world is mine. It is easy to take any post and say that it is self-focused. The fact is that when anyone posts, they are speaking for themselves, and it can be interpreted as self-focused. Do I want to be happy? Yes, of course. Do, I want to save our marriage? Absolutely. Do I want SSS to be happy and fulfilled? More than anything in the world. Does the fact that I want those things mean that I am self-focused? Well, it sure could be looked at that way. After all, it is ME that is posting. I am in a quandary about this possibility that I did not love SSS when we got married. She is concluding that, and it is putting her in a state of unbelievable anger and sadness. It would explain my behavior. I speak for myself when I say that I want to change myself, and I want this marriage to work, and I intend to stay faithful, and that I love her deeply, a love that has overwhelmed me since this discovery of my affair turned our lives upside down, and I had to look inside my heart and realize some serious things about me that were very messed up. Is that self-focused? You betcha. It better be, don't you think?

Do I feel true remorse? There are no words to express the pain of remorse in my heart. It put me in the hospital a while back. It leaves me in tears off an on throughout every day. To question whether my remorse is genuine is to just simply not know me or us or what is happening here.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/08/09 11:50 PM
I hope you will hang in there.

I know that change is possible, because of how much I've changed, and I was much worse than you.

On the other hand, there is that guy back east who swore from the bottom of his heart that if they paroled him that he would spend the rest of his life showing he changed, he would cherish his wife and kids, blah, blah, blah.

It's the same man who murdered his wife and kids, and then killed himself.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by believer
I hope you will hang in there.

I know that change is possible, because of how much I've changed, and I was much worse than you.

On the other hand, there is that guy back east who swore from the bottom of his heart that if they paroled him that he would spend the rest of his life showing he changed, he would cherish his wife and kids, blah, blah, blah.

It's the same man who murdered his wife and kids, and then killed himself.

I'm not him.

Your encouragement means a lot to me, Believer. I suppose that was what I was looking for. It is right to be suspicious, though. I was an SA. The stories of people even on this forum who have WSes and go through this and then the WS goes right back to what they were doing, astonishes me. I cannot imagine it. After realizing that SSS really did love me and desire me all those years, I could not hurt her again if my own life depended on it. I want those years back. I want to undo the damage that I caused. But I suppose that is just being self-centered or self-focused, because I want it.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
After all these months, SSS is concluding that I never loved her, that it was all a calculated USE of her one and only life for my own purpose.

What else do you think she is going to conclude? Your actions in the past have not demonstrated love.

Sounds to me like she's finally getting angry, and you're seeing some of the anger and feeling some of her anger. Sounds pretty normal to me. You need to expect this, GM. Not sit and feel sorry for yourself because of it.




Originally Posted by GreenMile
I am falling apart.


GM, this is a real problem. You should not be falling apart. You need to protect your wife from your own nervous breakdowns. You are not creating an environment where she feels safe enough to work through her pain and anger. Your continuous mental state of "I'm falling apart" every time your wife displays pain and hurt causes her to take two steps backwards in this healing process instead of moving forward.

At some point you have to become the strong one and support HER through the normal emotions of anger, rage, and grief that a BS needs to process.



Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 12:12 AM
TST, thanks for jumping in. That is what I needed to hear. I have heard this many times before, but still when things are emotionally horrible, I get weak and weepy and lose sight of what you just told me. I have been told this over and over, and it is so easy to forget. I guess that IS being self-focused. I must help her or fail.

Thank you.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
What if that is true?

Doesn't matter!



Originally Posted by GreenMile
What if the person I was simply did not love her ever?

Doesn't matter!



Originally Posted by GreenMile
Maybe that explains it all.

It might, but it doesn't matter!



Originally Posted by GreenMile
I destroyed her.

Yes, you did. So what are you going to do about it?



Originally Posted by GreenMile
But I can't live without her.

Doesn't matter!



Originally Posted by GreenMile
She is everything to me.

Then let your actions show it by being strong for her.



Originally Posted by GreenMile
I love her so deeply it hurts.

You've hurt her so deeply, and you call that love? Again, let your actions show it by being strong for her.



Originally Posted by GreenMile
All I want to do is spend the rest of my life with her and give her everything she was denied for so long, to really be her husband finally.

Again, then start letting your actions show it by being strong for her.



Originally Posted by GreenMile
All I want is to make her happy.

It's a great goal, that again, can only be achieved by letting your actions show it by being strong for her during these times.



Originally Posted by GreenMile
But now she cannot trust it or believe me.

DUH!!! rotflmao



Originally Posted by GreenMile
What do I do? I love her now. That is all I know.

I hope with the time you've spent on this board and the time you've spent coaching with the Harley's that you know much more than just "I love her now".

I'm sorry GM, but what you have to do now is stop feeling sorry for yourself. Everytime she needs to vent, you need to somehow learn what it's going to take to sooth her through that time, regardless of whether she stays in this marriage.

You need to view this whole picture through a different lens. That lens needs to be one that allows her the freedom to make whatever choice she needs to make. One that also includes you continuing to do whatever it takes to help her heal from all the destruction.


Originally Posted by GreenMile
Why did it take me so long?

Doesn't matter!



Originally Posted by GreenMile
Can I save this?


Not by yourself.


Originally Posted by GreenMile
Can she ever love me again?

Yes!

The real question is, "Are you willing to learn how to love her?" It doesn't happen by having emotional breakdowns.



Originally Posted by GreenMile
Oh, God.

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. You're calling out to God. If you will earnestly seek Him, you may find the answers that will allude you otherwise.

Now stop feeling sorry for yourself please, and start laying out a plan of action to help your wife when she's in pain. You might stop over to the recovery board and read the thread started by WHofRLT about helping BS's overcome triggers.


Regretting your past is not a bad thing, dwelling on yourself IS.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
But sometimes people do change and seek redemption and succeed at it. I just want to be one of those people, that's all. No psychiatrist is going to help with that.

I see. You've recently acquired so much insight into yourself that a psychiatrist can't help.

If that's true, why are you falling apart?
Posted By: johnstwin Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 01:25 AM
GM

Let's look at this clinically-

You have engaged in extra-marital affairs your entire marriage.

You had a long-term affair with a prostitute.

You have ignored your wife for these relationships.

With this history, it could be concluded that you have SA.

I am not trying to beat up on you. I am simply pointing out the very apparent facts.

This aspect of your life needs to be examined and "autopsied" to really get the root of your choices and behavior. Without facing this part of your life, you can't get past it. Without some kind of active work to change the patterns, they will return.

If you won't seek medical help, perhaps you should consider the Every Man's Battle week-end intensive through New Life Ministries. It isn't an end-all solution, but it could be a start.

There are other things that will have to be in place as well.

Do you have any accountability people in your life? It can't be
your wife. It needs to be men who have the b@)($ to say "WTH are you doing? You are out-of-line." Men who will know when you are bs-ing.

If you are to have a chance to get healthy regardless of what your wife decides to do, you have to face yourself and it sounds like you are trying to hide from who you are.

Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 01:33 AM
"Every Man's Battle" is an excellent book.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by GreenMile
But sometimes people do change and seek redemption and succeed at it. I just want to be one of those people, that's all. No psychiatrist is going to help with that.

I see. You've recently acquired so much insight into yourself that a psychiatrist can't help.

If that's true, why are you falling apart?

I was being rhetorical, I guess. I am seeing a psychiatrist. Right now just for anti-depressant meds, but he has given me the name of someone to deal with the other issues. I will be calling him.

I was falling apart today. Generally, I have been pretty much together. At times, SSS and I have actually been having some fun. It isn't all a crisis. Anyway, these posts have helped me. I am glad I asked for it. It is like that old cliche after someone slaps you. "Thanks. I needed that."
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 03:03 AM
Ok cool
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by johnstwin
GM

Let's look at this clinically-

You have engaged in extra-marital affairs your entire marriage.

You had a long-term affair with a prostitute.

You have ignored your wife for these relationships.

With this history, it could be concluded that you have SA.

I am not trying to beat up on you. I am simply pointing out the very apparent facts.

This aspect of your life needs to be examined and "autopsied" to really get the root of your choices and behavior. Without facing this part of your life, you can't get past it. Without some kind of active work to change the patterns, they will return.

If you won't seek medical help, perhaps you should consider the Every Man's Battle week-end intensive through New Life Ministries. It isn't an end-all solution, but it could be a start.

There are other things that will have to be in place as well.

Do you have any accountability people in your life? It can't be
your wife. It needs to be men who have the b@)($ to say "WTH are you doing? You are out-of-line." Men who will know when you are bs-ing.

If you are to have a chance to get healthy regardless of what your wife decides to do, you have to face yourself and it sounds like you are trying to hide from who you are.

I enjoyed the pathology metaphors:)

I am trying to change who I have been. Yes, I don't like to think about who that was. I guess that is running from it in a way, because it is uncomfortable. Somehow, I don't see that avoidance as aberrant. Under a microscope, if you place a little vinegar on one end of the slide, an amoeba will move away from it, because it is uncomfortable. But that mirror is everywhere I go. I look in it and see someone who had some very bad characteristics that have been catastrophic for my marriage and to SSS. I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers. But in my private life, it was Jeckyll and Hyde. These days, 7 years removed from my career, I mostly see the horrible things in the mirror, and I want to go back and change myself. I want a mulligan. Like in the Shawshank Redemption, when Red told the parole board, "I want to go back there talk some sense into that young man, but I can't. He is long gone. And all there is left is this tired old man." I wish I could go back. I really do. But I have the capacity to remake myself...and to compensate SSS, and to take care of her and make her safe. That is what I intend to do.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers.

I understand what you are attempting to do here. Expose yourself as "not 100% bad". I am certain it made you feel better about yourself to write out all your accomplishments.

What you may not realize is, you have basically written an indictment about your lack of love for your wife. Your list of where you had success shows what you value.

Making yourself look good (listing your accomplishments) highlights how little you've cared for SSS.

If you were trying to show how much you now love your wife, you just failed. You turned the spotlight back on yourself. Again.

FYI ~~~> This only makes what you did to your wife worse by comparison.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thanks for the help, Stella. You are so sweet and supportive.

This is sarcasm, isn't it?

Do you think that it is appropriate?

Do you think you deserve "sweet and supportive" responses, and that you are in any position to challenge those that are not?
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 03:42 PM
Yes, it was. And no its not. My bad. I was looking for some advice, though. Stellakat often responds with invective. That is not helpful, even if it is appropriate for the person I have been for so long. It seems that this forum is designed to help people not bust their chops, even if their chops deserve busting. All it does is make the reader reject what is said. I am sure there is method to that madness, and the motive may be good, but if it comes across more like madness than method, it accomplishes nothing and might as well not be posted. That is just my opinion, of course. And that is an opinion of a marital criminal who ought to be in prison.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Stellakat often responds with invective.

So what?

Quote
And that is an opinion of a marital criminal who ought to be in prison.
:RollieEyes:
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I was falling apart today.

Then stop it because sss can only take so much. FWH and I have had our moments of him not being able to handle what a [censored] he was but the BS needs to know she can count on you. If I'm having a bad day and FWH's reaction is he can't handle my sadness or anger at some point I'd have to tell him to get out or let him leave. You need to suck it up.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:10 PM
I don't think that Stellakat's post was "busting your chops". I think that if you read it again you might find it very helpful. It is pointing out to you that until you can answer each and every one of those questions, you do not deserve to be given the time of day.

It is not good enough to say that you cannot answer the questions (except the one about loving sss). You need to answer them and then deal with the implications of those answers. If the answers are ones that cast you in a bad light (and how could they do otherwise?) you need to work out whether and how you can move forward so that those positions are no longer true. It is not good enough to say "I won't be that person again"; you are that person just now. You have been for 25 years. Statements and declarations do not make you a different person.

My thought was that your sarcasm was indicative of your attitude to building a new marriage. Think hard about whether this might be true.

You want things to be better right away. What are you going to do about the fact that they won't be? Are you seeing only warm and supportive comments as being helpful advice? Do you want to dismiss posts that are otherwise? How is this attitude, if it is yours, going to help or hinder you?
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:11 PM
I will take that to heart, Pepperband. SSS loved me for my good characteristics, and they are still there, I think. The empathy and social consciousness are things that she still values. I'll take whatever crumbs I can get at this point. The case worker when I was hospitalized reminded me that beating myself up continuously is not helpful. That is the basis for what I wrote. I beat myself up all day long. Nobody is all bad or all good. Nothing is that simple. You know that.

I was writing from my heart, and I cannot be the person SSS wants me to be, if all I am is a bad guy. She is not a fool. She loved me for a reason. I have to build on my good points and extend them into our marriage. I think I am making some progress. It is up to me entirely. When some on this forum want to see this as a movie script with a nefarious villain who must be eliminated in order to save the heroine from destruction, it departs from the reality.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:13 PM
Agree, Raven. Same thing TST said. You are absolutely right.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
I don't think that Stellakat's post was "busting your chops". I think that if you read it again you might find it very helpful. It is pointing out to you that until you can answer each and every one of those questions, you do not deserve to be given the time of day.

It is not good enough to say that you cannot answer the questions (except the one about loving sss). You need to answer them and then deal with the implications of those answers. If the answers are ones that cast you in a bad light (and how could they do otherwise?) you need to work out whether and how you can move forward so that those positions are no longer true. It is not good enough to say "I won't be that person again"; you are that person just now. You have been for 25 years. Statements and declarations do not make you a different person.

My thought was that your sarcasm was indicative of your attitude to building a new marriage. Think hard about whether this might be true.

You want things to be better right away. What are you going to do about the fact that they won't be? Are you seeing only warm and supportive comments as being helpful advice? Do you want to dismiss posts that are otherwise? How is this attitude, if it is yours, going to help or hinder you?

I know SugarCane. Sometimes good things can be said in the wrong way. Things that need to be read and taken to heart can be rejected, if they are presented in an unhelpful way. It is tough to know what someone is really saying on the internet, when body language is not there. A message can come across in entirely the wrong way. That is why emails can be so dangerous. I tend to sound more didactic and dissembling than what my thought really are when I write, and it can really come across as phony or insincere. It is an old habit from writing long medical reports for 30 years. Believe me, my heart is where it is supposed to be, and I am working very hard, though it might not sound like that, the way I write.
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I am trying to change who I have been. Yes, I don't like to think about who that was. I guess that is running from it in a way, because it is uncomfortable. Somehow, I don't see that avoidance as aberrant. Under a microscope, if you place a little vinegar on one end of the slide, an amoeba will move away from it, because it is uncomfortable. But that mirror is everywhere I go. I look in it and see someone who had some very bad characteristics that have been catastrophic for my marriage and to SSS. I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers. But in my private life, it was Jeckyll and Hyde. These days, 7 years removed from my career, I mostly see the horrible things in the mirror, and I want to go back and change myself. I want a mulligan. Like in the Shawshank Redemption, when Red told the parole board, "I want to go back there talk some sense into that young man, but I can't. He is long gone. And all there is left is this tired old man." I wish I could go back. I really do. But I have the capacity to remake myself...and to compensate SSS, and to take care of her and make her safe. That is what I intend to do.

Pre-A days this would have rolled off me but post A it just screams sympathy. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way or perhaps as a BS I'm now hypersensitive. My FWH would tell me things like this too and guess what...I didn't care.

So you have a hard work ethic...yippie...your treated your wife like dirt. So you are honest with others...yippie...you lied to your wife like a dog. So everyone loved and respected you...yippie...do they even KNOW the real you and the bs your wife lived with?

Were you all bad GM? Probably not. Having a strong work ethic or a good sense of humor are good qualities but is irrelevant when you mistreat someone. You should remake yourself. You should make yourself into the man that you'd want your sons to be... not only for sss but for yourself.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The case worker when I was hospitalized reminded me that beating myself up continuously is not helpful. That is the basis for what I wrote. I beat myself up all day long. Nobody is all bad or all good. Nothing is that simple. You know that.

Learn to take your own inventory with brutal honesty - which is not "beating yourself up".

There is a difference.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:25 PM
GM, I would like you to e-mail me.

I have a discussion I want to take up with you off of the boards.

If you are interested, just click the notify Mods button on this post and send them a note that it's OK to exchange e-mails.

Posted By: SugarCane Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:28 PM
I think you might have missed my point. That is, that you should try to answer Stellakat's questions, or at least the gist of them:

Why should sss bother with you any more? I understand why you want her to, but why should she?
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 04:33 PM
GM,

I get some of the stories on MB mixed, so to save me from re-reading your entire thread...... help refresh my memory if you would please.

Did you attend SA, or NA, or AA meetings in person or online at any time in the past? ...If so, what and for how long?

Do you attend church alone or with sss? ...If so what denomination and how often?

Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Why should sss bother with you any more?

I'm not 100% sure, but I t h i n k this was his response...

Quote
I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers.
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 05:34 PM

I found it interesting that you said you "were" an SA. You ARE an SA, for life. It's like a diabetic saying, "I manage my diabetes with diet/exercise, so I don't need to take insulin." It's not like suddenly the person is no longer a diabetic because they manage their disease well. Cripes, I'll always have the tendency to be codependent for my whole life. Sure, I'm learning how to manage my behaviors, but it doesn't make it go away.

My husband is a recovering SA. Thankfully, we are young and his addiction did not escalate to the level of yours.

Have you read anything by Patrick Carnes? You can get a start on that..and your dr recommended you see someone who specializes in sex addiction, right? Other counselors may not work, because they aren't trained in addiction, let alone sex addiction.

And, the only thing that helped our marriage was getting our personal demons dealt with. My husband has alot of "great" qualities as well..but all of that gets trumped when I begin to think about him where he was a sober addict, but hadn't moved to recovery yet.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
I think you might have missed my point. That is, that you should try to answer Stellakat's questions, or at least the gist of them:

Why should sss bother with you any more? I understand why you want her to, but why should she?

LOL. Good question. She can best answer that in her thread. Apparently, she thinks I am still worth a shot. I guess there are some things she still loves.

Before going any further, my little post about looking in the mirror and seeing some good things besides the bad things has stirred things up. Life is complicated, I guess, and no one is all good or bad. But I probably should have left that out. I am working to be a good worthy and faithful husband to SSS. I know it will take years, and there is a world of injury to SSS to heal, but I am determined.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by inrecoverynow
I found it interesting that you said you "were" an SA. You ARE an SA, for life. It's like a diabetic saying, "I manage my diabetes with diet/exercise, so I don't need to take insulin." It's not like suddenly the person is no longer a diabetic because they manage their disease well. Cripes, I'll always have the tendency to be codependent for my whole life. Sure, I'm learning how to manage my behaviors, but it doesn't make it go away.

My husband is a recovering SA. Thankfully, we are young and his addiction did not escalate to the level of yours.

Have you read anything by Patrick Carnes? You can get a start on that..and your dr recommended you see someone who specializes in sex addiction, right? Other counselors may not work, because they aren't trained in addiction, let alone sex addiction.

And, the only thing that helped our marriage was getting our personal demons dealt with. My husband has alot of "great" qualities as well..but all of that gets trumped when I begin to think about him where he was a sober addict, but hadn't moved to recovery yet.

I see what you are saying, and I understand. It is like addiction for certain people. I used to go to NA meetings in the 80's when my chemical addiction was active, and that answers one other question on a post here, but yes, I still must consider myself an addict forever. I always will be. I get that. I am still not sure that I am SA from that kind of dynamic. At least it does not feel like that to me. Just not sure. I am putting my extraordinary measures in place. I haven't read Carne's book. But I will, if you recommend it. I didn't understand what was meant by SA when I first read that. I thought it meant "serial adulterer". I now assume that it means "sex addict". My answer to that is that I doubt it, but I can't rule it out.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Why should sss bother with you any more?

I'm not 100% sure, but I t h i n k this was his response...

Quote
I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers.

Nope. Those things were just self-observations, not reasons why SSS should bother with me. She has her own reasons, and I am sure it can be found in her thread. I don't read that, for obvious reasons.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by tst
GM,

I get some of the stories on MB mixed, so to save me from re-reading your entire thread...... help refresh my memory if you would please.

Did you attend SA, or NA, or AA meetings in person or online at any time in the past? ...If so, what and for how long?

Do you attend church alone or with sss? ...If so what denomination and how often?

I attended NA meetings in the late 80's for about three years, until my chemical dependency was inactive for a long time.

I have been to church with SSS. She doesn't care for it, but I feel like I need it. She has assured me that she will go with me more often. It is non-denominational and, best of all, non-judgmental. It is just a basic Christian church of no denomination that was founded based on the equality of all human beings. I liked it there and felt comfortable. As for SA, I misunderstood in an earlier post. I thought that meant serial adulterer, not an actual compulsive behavioral disorder.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by tst
GM, I would like you to e-mail me.

I have a discussion I want to take up with you off of the boards.

If you are interested, just click the notify Mods button on this post and send them a note that it's OK to exchange e-mails.

I would like that. I need to change my forum prefs and also change my notifications to a different email address that I would prefer to use for this. But SSS and I need to drive to Kansas City today for something and won't be back till late. Once I am back and set that up, I will email you. Thanks, TST.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:14 PM
NO, NO, NO!!! Wrong answer, to the question that I did not ask!!

Green Mile, I know you get what I'm asking you, and I think you're giving what you hope looks like an answer but isn't, so that the question will disappear.

Last try: What reasons can you give sss for building a new marriage with you?

If you don't want to answer that's okay. This is none of my business anyway! It's no problem for me to disappear!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The case worker when I was hospitalized reminded me that beating myself up continuously is not helpful. That is the basis for what I wrote. I beat myself up all day long. Nobody is all bad or all good. Nothing is that simple. You know that.

Learn to take your own inventory with brutal honesty - which is not "beating yourself up".

There is a difference.

Thanks, Pepperband. I understand. I have been taking that inventory, believe me. It is honest. And the brutality of it is as you might expect. Very brutal.

I am not used to taking antidepressant meds. I was started when I went to the hospital some weeks ago and must continue for about six months. It certainly takes the edge off, but it also makes me wonder if it might blunt the emotional process of self examination and self-improvement, and the brutality of that, that is optimal. For a person who has always tended to objectify and rationalize, which has been part of my problem, maybe those meds are not such a good idea. I just don't know.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
For a person who has always tended to objectify and rationalize, which has been part of my problem, maybe those meds are not such a good idea. I just don't know.

It's you, not the meds.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
NO, NO, NO!!! Wrong answer, to the question that I did not ask!!

Green Mile, I know you get what I'm asking you, and I think you're giving what you hope looks like an answer but isn't, so that the question will disappear.

Last try: What reasons can you give sss for building a new marriage with you?

If you don't want to answer that's okay. This is none of my business anyway! It's no problem for me to disappear!

Oh. I see. Well, because
1) I am capable of, and fully intend to be, the person she always wanted...faithful, loving, honest, supporting, and a full partner
2) I adore her
3) I want to re-claim our history (the good parts) for her and help her re-claim her life for her and restore meaning to it and heal her pain
4) We never tire of each other's company. We truly like being with each other
5) Because it will set an example for our grown sons
6) Because I am remorseful beyond description and seek redemption
7) Because we are still hot for each other LOL
8) Because the person who did those terrible things to her is gone.
9) Because we can have true romantic love for each other, if we work for it
10) Because she can be safe with me

Not necessarily in that order. Are those wrong reasons?

I know there are more.
Posted By: committedandlovi Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:50 PM
Quote
It is non-denominational and, best of all, non-judgmental. It is just a basic Christian church of no denomination that was founded based on the equality of all human beings. I liked it there and felt comfortable.

With all due respect to religious preference...

This speaks volumes to me.

With all the heinous stuff you were doing outside your marriage you should have felt SOMETHING if that church was doing its job.

This is the type of church that continuing sinners want to attend.

Your history indicates the need for a church that WOULD judge you...and hold your feet to the fire.

JMHO
committed
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 06:50 PM
GM...

If I may, let me offer you something that may shine light on why the list of "good GM" stuff doesn't really matter...A different perspective for you to try on so to speak...

"Hi, growing up I was a good student at Woodrow Wilson High School in Tacoma, WA. I was very active in the Methodist church there. I was a member in good standing of the Boy Scouts of America. I volunteered with the suicide hotline in Seattle, WA. I was an honors student in college and eventually graduated with my degree in psychology. I'm very handsome and charming. There is much more, but this is all I have time for now. Oh yes, I forgot to mention, my name is Ted Bundy."

I realize you will see that as an extreme example...I do hope, however, that it will help to give you some perspective...

Mrs. W
Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 07:18 PM
GM, you would still be with the latest prostitute if your wife had not found out about it. And had the strength now, to NOT put up with it and to confront you, strength she did not have before since you kept her self esteem very low.

Why keep your (very damaged by you) wife and family? Why not stay with the prostitute who loves you. That is more your caliber. She is more on your level. She loves you regardless of how you are.

Stick with the prostitute and leave the wife to be free of you.

Buy a home for you and the prostitute to live in, pay for her food, clothing, and crack. Make sure she has enough meth to be happy. You will have a simple life and will not need to make any changes in yourself.

This option would probably be best for everyone.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by committedandlovi
[quote]It is non-denominational and, best of all, non-judgmental.

redflag
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I have been to church with SSS. She doesn't care for it, but I feel like I need it. She has assured me that she will go with me more often.

OK, were you going to this church prior to recovery?
Give me a rough time line of your church history...


As far as sss not caring for the church?? Is that because she doesn't like church or doesn't like THIS church?


Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
It is non-denominational and, best of all, non-judgmental.

redflag [/quote]

It is a pretty strange thing for a repentant WS to appreciate "best of all" in a church.

Especially for one who "constantly beats himself up".

Makes it seem as though you're only interested in APPEARING to beat yourself up.

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Stellakat
GM, you would still be with the latest prostitute if your wife had not found out about it. And had the strength now, to NOT put up with it and to confront you, strength she did not have before since you kept her self esteem very low.

Why keep your (very damaged by you) wife and family? Why not stay with the prostitute who loves you. That is more your caliber. She is more on your level. She loves you regardless of how you are.

Stick with the prostitute and leave the wife to be free of you.

Buy a home for you and the prostitute to live in, pay for her food, clothing, and crack. Make sure she has enough meth to be happy. You will have a simple life and will not need to make any changes in yourself.

This option would probably be best for everyone.


Stellakat, I think GM gets your point......IMO, you're making these attacks personal......

The best option would NOT be a return back to what they have already lived through, the best option would be personal recovery for both sss and GM.



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 08:35 PM
I agree w/ Stella.

I think the kindest thing GM could do for his W is to give her her freedom.

Remove himself entirely from her life.

Quote
The best option would NOT be a return back to what they have already lived through, the best option would be personal recovery for both sss and GM.

I don't believe either one can personally recover TOGETHER.

Posted By: Stellakat Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 08:49 PM
I am not being judgemental here. (well maybe a little)

I am however a realist. People, we human beings, hang out long term with other people who are the same caliber that we are. We hang out with people we have things in common with. We hang out with people we can communicate with. This is just what human beings do.

Why fight nature. If GM felt comfortable around prostitutes for over 26 years straight, then that is the type of woman he feels comfortable around, the type he can communicate with, the type he likes to be around, and the type he was around the majority of his married life.

There is no easy way to change this now, unless he gets a brain, psche, and heart transplant.

It is who he is.

He has chosen to spend his time, his life energy, and his money on these women for 26 years. He loves being around these types of women MORE than he loved being married. It has been his choice of who he likes to be around. It is who he prefers to be around. It is his nature to prefer these types of woman and by his actions (for years) he showed this.

Let him go and be with those who he prefers being around. That is all I am saying.



Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 10:29 PM
It is evident to me that sadsosad is investing in Marriage coaching w/ Steve Harley & investing in going to the MB weekend the end of March WITH GM.

sss & GM currently want to reconcile their marriage and both need help in making that work. It's evident to me that this is the reason they are on the forums. Telling them to go their seperate ways may seem to make some that are posting feel better about themselves, but how is that helping them in the decision they have made to attempt recovery? (rhetorical)


Gun slinging MB style is fine if it's helping them with their stated goals. Otherwise, what's the point, other than personal attacks...
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 10:37 PM
Quote
There is no easy way to change this now, unless he gets a brain, psche, and heart transplant.


I don't disagree. I would just prefer to see it written out,
"There is no way to change this without GOD, unless he gets a brain, psche, and heart transplant".

Dunno, Just a thought.....
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/09/09 10:59 PM
Why don't we all just agree that he is pond scum, a hopeless psycopath, and belongs in jail?

Then we can get on with giving him positive advice.

I don't know, I may be stupid, but my WH knew about MB, but never cared enough to post here. And to this day, he wants to get back together, but can't be bothered to post here.

So let's support those who come here as best we can.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by Stellakat
GM, you would still be with the latest prostitute if your wife had not found out about it. And had the strength now, to NOT put up with it and to confront you, strength she did not have before since you kept her self esteem very low.

Why keep your (very damaged by you) wife and family? Why not stay with the prostitute who loves you. That is more your caliber. She is more on your level. She loves you regardless of how you are.

Stick with the prostitute and leave the wife to be free of you.

Buy a home for you and the prostitute to live in, pay for her food, clothing, and crack. Make sure she has enough meth to be happy. You will have a simple life and will not need to make any changes in yourself.

This option would probably be best for everyone.


Stellakat, I think GM gets your point......IMO, you're making these attacks personal......

The best option would NOT be a return back to what they have already lived through, the best option would be personal recovery for both sss and GM.

Back after a day out of town with SSS.

Thanks, TST. We are here because it is Marriage Builders. It is something we both want. We re-live the agony for a large portion of every day and probably will for years. I know that I will until the day I die. It isn't necessary to make me suffer more than I am. I think Stellakat is letting her own anger out. It is likely feeling good for her to do that, but there is an unflattering term for people who inflict pain for their own pleasure or to better themselves. I really don't believe Stellakat is wanting to do that consciously, so I will leave it at that. But there must be some issues there that go beyond wanting to protect SSS. TST, I do want to email you and will set that up later.

I have read all the many posts since we have been gone today, and there are only a couple of things I want to clear up.

First was Marshmallow's comment that I should do the right thing and "set SSS free" in her words. SSS found that quite offensive. She does not need me to "set her free". She is quite capabable of doing that all by herself and will, if it ends up seeming to be the best choice for her. She is a grown woman.

Second was the more emotionally charged question about religion and church. To answer that, SSS and I have been to that church once, since all this happened. She chose it, because she has friends there, and by "non-judgmental" it means that it is dedicated to social equality and includes gays and other groups that have been discriminated against. SSS is very involved in rights organizations. It does not mean that it believes that people are free of moral structure, can sin without repercussions, or does not follow the tenets of Christianity. She grew up with a religious background. She merely does not like churches particularly and finds many of them quarrelsome and divisive. She feels like she can communicate with God without going to a particular building and sitting with a group of like minded people. That's all.

As for me, I grew up without any allegiance to religion, and part of my problem has been the lack of a moral code or fear of retribution in an afterlife. I had a childhood with a bad marriage and a lot of yelling and shouting, and I found the books of Alan Watts, who taught comparative religion and was an expert in the Eastern Religions when I was 20. The Buddhist concept of God was a relief to me and helped me adjust to my childhood and meet the challenges of adulthood...or so I thought. But the lack of a moral code with defined consequences was the worst possible thing for me when it came to marriage, especially after knowing only the awful marriage that I grew up in. In a way, Alan Watts was a contributing factor in my reprehensible behavior. After all, if everyone is God, then it doesn't really matter what you do, right? I now understand that this is a prescription for chaos and sorrow. Though both of my parents were non practicing Jews, I find now that the teachings of Jesus are the most meaningful, and the best, guide for personal and social behavior for me. I do not believe in evangelism and think it is wrong for people to try to get other to believe the same way they do. My beliefs do not make me a Christian in the sense that I worship the birth and death of Jesus as divine events, though I can't exclude the possibility, but I very much believe that following his teachings can lead me, and everyone else, out of the darkness. If I had followed that, I would not be in the situation I find myself in, and I would not have committed such terrible sins against SSS and against myself. So, I want to go to that church more often. I believe that a sense of redemption and self-discovery and healing lies there.

So, the answer regarding spirituality is YES. That is the key I believe to my recovery and growth as a human being.

I know in my heart that I have undergone a transformation, and that I can follow the MB principles and incorporate them into myself. If I were a betting man, and didn't know anything but the history of who I have been, I wouldn't give a plug nickle for my chances or for the safety of SSS. I can see why Stellakat and and everyone would agree that I am simply a bad bet and that SSS is better off getting rid of me. But here is the thing: I do know who I am and what is in my heart, and I would take that bet in a heartbeat. But I feel enormous pain, and it is not necessary to rub it in. The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years. Can SHE deal with the past and trust me for the future enough to make that bet along with me? If MB can help us stay together and find love and redemption and trust, wouldn't that be something? People should be pulling for us, not trying to discourage us. That is all I have to say, I guess.


Posted By: Marshmallow Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by believer
I don't know, I may be stupid, but my WH knew about MB, but never cared enough to post here. And to this day, he wants to get back together, but can't be bothered to post here.

It's a pity your H won't come here, Believer.

While I don't know everything about your sitch, I don't think your XH had multiple A's.

In GM's case, this isn't a one time mistake, it was a way of life for him....for 26 years.

GM reminds me of my dear sister's XH.

In almost every way.

And while I love happy endings and rejoice whenever someone truly repents, I don't believe MB will help this couple...GM's character flaws go too deep.

Posted By: karmasrose Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years.

This says it all.

Quote
Can SHE deal with the past

You want your wife to be the one who deals with the past? You seem to WANT to sincerely make the effort, but...frankly she has every right to run and not look back...
Posted By: cinderella Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years. Can SHE deal with the past and trust me for the future enough to make that bet along with me?

Talk is cheap....you can talk all you want BUT can you walk the walk of a changed man? Can you be the changed man? Can you make that sort of life change? Can you accept the fact that it may take a very long time until your faithful wife can see you in a new light? Can you give her a reason to see you differently?
Posted By: johnstwin Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 05:24 AM
GM-


Are you willing to spend the rest of your life showing SSS that you have changed-even if she never does completely trust you?

If you can, then I'd say you have a chance.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 05:41 AM
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by believer
I don't know, I may be stupid, but my WH knew about MB, but never cared enough to post here. And to this day, he wants to get back together, but can't be bothered to post here.

It's a pity your H won't come here, Believer.

While I don't know everything about your sitch, I don't think your XH had multiple A's.

In GM's case, this isn't a one time mistake, it was a way of life for him....for 26 years.

GM reminds me of my dear sister's XH.

In almost every way.

And while I love happy endings and rejoice whenever someone truly repents, I don't believe MB will help this couple...GM's character flaws go too deep.

I hope you are wrong. It was a sad, and sick substitute for a cold marriage that I had created. I had a prior marriage that lasted almost 10 years. We were together for 8 years, from 1970-1978, then separated for two years for her career. Finally It ended in a career move for her to NYC in 1980 after she finished veterinary medical school. Never once was there infidelity in that relationship until the separation. Cheating with sex workers is not part of a compulsive personality disorder for me. The dynamics of what happened are far more complicated than you know. I was still angry about the first marriage ending, because my first wife chose grad school in small animal medicine in New York City, rather than re-uniting with me. It was immature, but I was angry. The anger spilled over into my marriage with SSS. When I became domineering and unloving, the more she cut me off, and then the angrier I got. Still, I had every opportunity to fix it in counseling, and I never did. I was afraid to face my own demons. I squandered several chances to fix our marriage, the first time with a world renowned marriage counselor, and chose instead to cheat with a prostitute. It seemed much "easier" than actually dealing with my anger and allowing SSS into my heart. It is a very sad story all the way around. And completely unnecessary. All those many years, all I had to do was treat her with respect as an equal and meet her emotional needs, and cease my independent behavior and none of this would have happened. None of it. It is 100% my fault, but I am not a psychopath or a compulsive sex addict. That is why I believe that MB can still save our marriage. It is far more likely to succeed than anyone here realizes. I believe it is greater than 50:50. The question is really whether that much injury can be healed enough to allow a loving marriage to develop. It will be easy for me not to cheat. Easy. It is not a compulsion or something that I have no control over. The fact that SSS and I are so compatible together is very important, I think. We really do enjoy being with and doing things together. And she is the sweetest person on earth. It also is true that she has a tremendous libido that I had conveniently convinced myself had shut down. Boy, was I wrong! The truth is that she had to be cold to me to protect herself. I understand that now. I would have done the same thing to me if I had been her. I was an a**hole. Pure and simple. It would have been insane for her to have sex with me the way I treated her.

I have not told that story yet. It is not a rationalization or some form of protecting myself. It is what happened. SSS would agree. I was very messed up, but not in the way you think. Now that my anger is long gone, and I am learning about the way love is built and works, I understand that I had placed a governor on my emotions practically the day we got married. I simply would not let SSS put deposits in my love bank early on. She tried everything to make me happy, but I was not open to it. And I mistreated her. She responded by putting up a wall to protect herself. God, I wish I could go back and fix it. It would have all turned out differently. This is the story that must be understood in order to know what our chances of recovery really are.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by cinderella
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years. Can SHE deal with the past and trust me for the future enough to make that bet along with me?

Talk is cheap....you can talk all you want BUT can you walk the walk of a changed man? Can you be the changed man? Can you make that sort of life change? Can you accept the fact that it may take a very long time until your faithful wife can see you in a new light? Can you give her a reason to see you differently?

You have it exactly, Cinderella. The answer is yes. I am absolutely certain. And I can accept that could take many, many years before SSS can totally trust me again. No one knows me better than her. She has known me for 30 years. If you ask her, she will tell you honestly that I am not the same person I was. She sees the change in me. But I learned to be such a great liar over the years that in order to protect herself, she simply must mistrust me now, even though she sees the transformation in me. The trust will take a long time, and it may never be absolute. But I am not away at work during the day, and I have given up my most of my organizations and activities, and I am easing out of the rest of them as quickly as possible. I have abandoned independent behavior, and I am with her ALL the time. She accompanies me whenever I must go anywhere. That is the way it should have always been. It seems odd to us right now, but that is the way a real marriage should be. Yes, I can give her many reasons to see me differently. That is my job to make sure that is always the case.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years.

This says it all.

Quote
Can SHE deal with the past

You want your wife to be the one who deals with the past? You seem to WANT to sincerely make the effort, but...frankly she has every right to run and not look back...

Those are her words. She told me that. I know I can do what needs to be done. But even if I do everything right and become the perfect husband, if she cannot deal with the past and what I did to injure her, then it is over. Of course she has every right to run and not look back. There is not a person on earth who would tell her otherwise, including me. No need to be frank about it. That is like saying, "I'll be frank about it. Water is wet." I'll tell you how I feel. I feel like I am racing against the clock. I have to keep ahead of her decision to run. I have to work this program and be so good at it, that she cannot pull the trigger on that decision. The rate of my success must exceed the rate at which she loses patience.
If I slow down to look back, its the ballgame. I have this one opportunity to win back the love of my life, the person who was always there for me when I was always lying and never there for her. Its do or die for me. This is the two minute drill. I am four points down with 1:30 on the clock and 85 yards to go.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I am trying to change who I have been. Yes, I don't like to think about who that was. I guess that is running from it in a way, because it is uncomfortable. Somehow, I don't see that avoidance as aberrant. Under a microscope, if you place a little vinegar on one end of the slide, an amoeba will move away from it, because it is uncomfortable. But that mirror is everywhere I go. I look in it and see someone who had some very bad characteristics that have been catastrophic for my marriage and to SSS. I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers. But in my private life, it was Jeckyll and Hyde. These days, 7 years removed from my career, I mostly see the horrible things in the mirror, and I want to go back and change myself. I want a mulligan. Like in the Shawshank Redemption, when Red told the parole board, "I want to go back there talk some sense into that young man, but I can't. He is long gone. And all there is left is this tired old man." I wish I could go back. I really do. But I have the capacity to remake myself...and to compensate SSS, and to take care of her and make her safe. That is what I intend to do.

Pre-A days this would have rolled off me but post A it just screams sympathy. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way or perhaps as a BS I'm now hypersensitive. My FWH would tell me things like this too and guess what...I didn't care.

So you have a hard work ethic...yippie...your treated your wife like dirt. So you are honest with others...yippie...you lied to your wife like a dog. So everyone loved and respected you...yippie...do they even KNOW the real you and the bs your wife lived with?

Were you all bad GM? Probably not. Having a strong work ethic or a good sense of humor are good qualities but is irrelevant when you mistreat someone. You should remake yourself. You should make yourself into the man that you'd want your sons to be... not only for sss but for yourself.

Yes. All true. I do get this.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/10/09 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by johnstwin
GM-


Are you willing to spend the rest of your life showing SSS that you have changed-even if she never does completely trust you?

If you can, then I'd say you have a chance.

Thanks, JT. That is very encouraging, because that is exactly how I see it, and the answer is yes. That is why I also think we have a chance. I know the challenge and the frustration that lies ahead as far as the eye can see.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/14/09 05:27 PM
GM -

I posted this to the Mrs. and am posting it to you now -

SSS -

Have you checked out the RecoveryNation spouses' site?

I really think hubby may be a SA.

A lot of addicts find themselves as addicts because they've lost a control component in their life and they find SOMETHING that they CAN control and fixate on it. A person who suffers emotional/physical abuse WILL usually try to find something that they CAN control and because they want to overcompensate for the pain, the abuse; whatever it is that gives them relief. Food, sex, drugs, alcohol etc. When someone is hurt and in pain, the human being in them wants to find a fix. And alot of times its not a 'healthy' fix. How many times have you heard of a bulimic who suffered 'other' abuse and felt so out of control, they found that food is something they can control. And control it, they do!

Us humans have a desire to stay in control and fix our pains. When control is 'taken' from us or someone 'hurts' us, even as a child, we seek out comfort. And sometimes the brain disconnects and self-preservation is paramount and our comfort fix is destructive. And we set 'patterns' that follow us for a life.

Id say that somewhere, somehow and to some degree, GM has suffered some pain/loss of control at some point in his life. Probably when he was young and didnt have the tools to 'fix' whatever issue it was. Maybe an over controlling parent. An absent parent (emotionally/physically)Maybe he witnessed violence or abuse. Or was victimized himself. He learned to 'fix' himself thru self-gratification. And when a stressor pops up in life, he reverts to his old comforts.

When an alcoholic is feeling down-they reach for a drink. When a drug addict is feeling bad-they reach for their drug. When a sex addict is feeling down, they reach for their fix. They dont want to reach for their destructive fix but its the ONLY way they know to solve their feelings. And their issue is finding NEW and healthy ways to comfort themselves.

Ive dealt with an addict. Eventually, hopefully you can separate the addict from his addiction. You will never be able to fix an addict---but you CAN help fix a person that SUFFERS from an addiction. When a person can learn to fix THEMSELVES, the addiction can be solved. Focus on the PERSON who needs fixing. GM will have to find a way to fix HIMSELF and the addiction can be controlled. His BRAIN is the part that needs the fixing and the rest can fall into place. Also, I found that getting mad at the addiction was more productive than getting mad at the person! GM may feel like we're attacking HIM when itd be better if we attacked his PROBLEM. Attack the sex addiction, not GM personally.

Of course, I STILL don't have my psychiatry credentials.

HUGS to you and GM.



Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/14/09 11:18 PM
It isn't addiction to sex. It is really addiction to control. I don't like to be out of control or have situations that I cannot control. I am realizing that my life has been ruined by that need to control or manipulate the world to be advantageous to me and be the leader in interpersonal relationships. To be the "decider", as Bush would say. I think that is what all those hookers and the affair were about. Basically, I called the shots in those situations. I could decide. In my marriage, it was clear that SSS was not going to go along with me controlling the marriage or circumstances. She wanted a real partnership. But I think you may be right. It is kind of an addiction. Even when I used drugs, it was to control my mood or state of mind. That is almost certainly the demon that has taken down my marriage and caused so much risky behavior and destruction to SSS. I have always been most uncomfortable in situations over which I had no control. Not like a mean despot or dictator, but just "in control". I need help to overcome this and it is also very harmful to recovery, because I am no longer in control. I thought I had given up all semblance of controlling behavior, but I still have this remnant of wanting to control the recovery, wanting to MAKE SSS heal, wanting to manipulate the world I live in so that we can be happy, and so that my feelings of helplessness and overwhelming remorse can be made to GO AWAY.

But alas. I have no control over all of that. It will never go away. All I can do is be someone who SSS can believe in and be a partner with and who dedicates his every waking moment to healing her. I cannot do that and be in control of the situation. I am beginning to understand that I simply have to give up that craving to be on top of every situation. Faith in a higher power and surrendering control is the only door open, and it is closing fast. It is nothing less than the death of ego, itself.

Huge hugs back at ya, Believer. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for pulling for the both of us.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/14/09 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
....It is really addiction to control. I don't like to be out of control or have situations that I cannot control. I am realizing that my life has been ruined by that need to control or manipulate the world to be advantageous to me and be the leader in interpersonal relationships. To be the "decider", as Bush would say.

...... Even when I used drugs, it was to control my mood or state of mind.

...... I have always been most uncomfortable in situations over which I had no control. Not like a mean despot or dictator, but just "in control".


Sounds like a perfect description of a typical addict.

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/14/09 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by tst
[quote=GreenMile] ....It is really addiction to control. I don't like to be out of control or have situations that I cannot control. I am realizing that my life has been ruined by that need to control or manipulate the world to be advantageous to me and be the leader in interpersonal relationships. To be the "decider", as Bush would say.

...... Even when I used drugs, it was to control my mood or state of mind.

...... I have always been most uncomfortable in situations over which I had no control. Not like a mean despot or dictator, but just "in control".


Sounds like a perfect description of a typical addict.

[/quote
Yes, I see that. It really is. I want and need help. I cannot save our marriage without that help.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/20/09 08:51 PM
Just arrived at MB weekend. It starts this evening. Glad the site is back up. I am ready to go to work. SSS is struggling and sad about even having to be here, but we have good moments, too. One step at a time.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/20/09 09:06 PM
Hang in there, GreenMile!

For some crazy reason, I have faith in you, and I think between SSS and you, your marriage CAN overcome everything. I'm putting my money (oops, YOUR money) on the Harley's being able to help you.

If you get a chance, ask about how sexual addiction might influence recovery. Just wondering.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/20/09 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Hang in there, GreenMile!

For some crazy reason, I have faith in you, and I think between SSS and you, your marriage CAN overcome everything. I'm putting my money (oops, YOUR money) on the Harley's being able to help you.

If you get a chance, ask about how sexual addiction might influence recovery. Just wondering.

LOL Thanks, Believer. I believe it too. SSS is pulling for me but betting against me.

I will ask that. Heading downstairs now to the seminar.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 12:24 AM
So, any update???????????????
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by believer
So, any update???????????????

Yes. Sorry. I have been posting on some other threads since getting home. The seminar was simply fantastic. Dr. Harley is a brilliant speaker and makes everything seem so totally logical and understandable. It was wonderful meeting him, Joyce, Steve, Kim, and all of them in person. Having been an engineer before becoming a clinical psychologist, he makes everything flow logically, and his system is born of scientific observation and logic. There is no doubt to any listener that the MB approach that evolved from his experience is not only the only program that makes sense but the only one that works. It is based on observation and empirical data and results. With my science background, it was perfect for me.

Now for a more personal reaction: He gave me hope. Actually beyond hope. I am totally confident that if I can master this and work this for the rest of my life, that SSS and I will succeed. In fact, the odds are 100%. The only remaining doubts are 1) that SSS will not be able to heal, which in my opinion can only happen if I fail to do this and follow through, and 2) there is a risk of failure in the long term, if I do not find a personal God to surrender myself to, who will give me the tools to live a moral life. I have lived 61 years without a moral compass. My embrace of Buddhist philosophy when I was a young man helped me a great deal with the conflicts of my childhood and the demands and complications of adulthood, but it was toxic beyond belief in the context of marriage. The self cannot exist only as an expression of the whole universe when you are married. The self must instead exist as an expression of two individuals functioning as one self, both sides totally commited to the other. The universal self is bereft of moral structure, because anything goes and everything only serves the self. The spiritual part is not really part of MB, but TST spent hours with me after the seminar and helped me to understand this part. SexyMamaBear spent those same hours with SSS and helped her as well. Years ago, I never completed the 12 steps after getting clean from drug addiction. This was likely my undoing, as I clearly have an addictive personality that is very strong. An affair, sexual or otherwise, that meets emotional needs is like a drug, exactly like an addiction. TST made it very clear that I have little chance of long term success without that spiritual approach, so after completing all the lessons and mastering MB, I will be getting the Big Book and finishing the job I left unfinished years ago. I have a lifetime of work, but I am now excited and optimistic and ready to go to work. I would not only recommend the seminar to everyone but actually urge everyone to beg or borrow the money if necessary to attend one of those weekends.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 04:56 PM
Oh, GM, your words give me lots of hope. I'm so happy that you are realizing how important the spiritual side is.

I really hope that you will get the Big Book right away. The problem with an addiction is that we always feel that we have the power to overcome it. And that leads to a constant struggle, failure, and self-hatred when we fall.

Once we accept that we are powerless, and rely on our higher power, everything becomes easy. It is a hard concept to grasp, but I've seen many, many people completely turn their lives around.

I know there are a lot of people here doubting you, but hang in there and don't give up. A 12-Step program works. I've been using one for 40 years and have been clean the whole time.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by believer
Oh, GM, your words give me lots of hope. I'm so happy that you are realizing how important the spiritual side is.

I really hope that you will get the Big Book right away. The problem with an addiction is that we always feel that we have the power to overcome it. And that leads to a constant struggle, failure, and self-hatred when we fall.

Once we accept that we are powerless, and rely on our higher power, everything becomes easy. It is a hard concept to grasp, but I've seen many, many people completely turn their lives around.

I know there are a lot of people here doubting you, but hang in there and don't give up. A 12-Step program works. I've been using one for 40 years and have been clean the whole time.

Thanks once again, Believer. Since getting home, I have messed up several times already. These were moments of need by SSS that I misinterpreted. She read the first chapter of His Needs, Her Needs this morning and was triggered badly by it. She is lying in bed sobbing and won't let me be by her side in there. When I try to be with her, she threatens to leave the house. All she can feel right now is the overwhelming pain of what I have done to her and a complete lack of trust that I can be honest or that her life can ever be better. Plus she is in a deeper crisis because of some discouraging things that people wrote to her in her thread today. I know I have to be strong for her, but it is so hard when it is like this, when all she is reminded of is my horrific lying and betrayal of her. I am really at a loss what to do or say at times like this, and feeling helpless and afraid is where I am at. And last night, after I posted to you, I went to be feeling so hopeful. I can only ask for God to help her and to guide me right now.
Posted By: believer Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 05:39 PM
She is going through the normal grieving of the marriage she thought she had. No matter what you do, she will go through this.

She should have a lack of trust in you. She would be foolish to trust you right now.

I suggest that you keep working MB and also start on a 12-Step program.

Do some deep thinking about your spiritual side. I've been interested in SSS and your posts about religion. It doesn't seem like you have connected with a belief system. I would work on that.

I'm kind of the same. I call myself "a follower of Jesus", instead of a Christian.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 06:27 PM
GM, sounds like a rough day. You know there will be many more ahead, just do not get discouraged.

You and sss both have Kim's phone number from MB and can call anytime you are experiencing these tough days. You can also post directly to Dr. Harley on the MB Weekend forum anytime needed. Use all the resources available to help you.

Please remember, this is a process not an event!


Originally Posted by believer
I suggest that you keep working MB and also start on a 12-Step program.

Believer, your post has merit, but is not what Dr. Harley recommended for GM.

I am trying to stay as close to what he actually said;
Dr. H was specifically asked about working both the MB & AA/SA programs simultaneously in the beginning of recovery at the MB weekend. He said, You should not co-mingle approaches to marital recovery in the beginning of recovery as it is a recipe for huge problems. Stick with the MB program until the marriage is in a full state of recovery before introducing another set of ideas that could cause marital conflict and lead to LB's. MB is all that's needed if the rule of POJA is followed at all times!



Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 06:46 PM
That is true, what Dr. Harley said. And I took it to heart what you told me in that regard also, TST. You and Believer, like it or not, are my greatest source of support and inspiration outside of the MB team, and I appreciate it more than words can describe. That is a lot to say for a word addict like me LOL.

These kinds of days will be many, when SSS questions whether she should even continue. Though I know that, it doesn't make them any easier.
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 06:54 PM
GM-
i know EXACTLY how your wife feels, bc my H had a similar history to yours. i have felt like seperating on a daily basis and still have since we got home- its TRIGGERS.

the pain is intensified since we have so much hurt from past behaviors , but sss and i need to remember that these are habits- and they can be changed - as dr. harley said.

PLEASE call Kim today - and post to dr harley. this has made all hte difference for us - and it is very hard for us on a daily basis. they are there for you -- and they will give you their professional advise. it has already been so helpful to me in just these 3 days.

i felt like calling it quits too bc of something my h did on the way home. now i am back on track.

take care, sunflower
Posted By: MicheleG Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 07:14 PM
Quote
I am totally confident that if I can master this and work this for the rest of my life, that SSS and I will succeed. In fact, the odds are 100%. The only remaining doubts are 1) that SSS will not be able to heal, which in my opinion can only happen if I fail to do this and follow through,


GM, I haven't posted to you before but I have been following you and SSS from the beginning. I wanted to point out that SSS may not be able to heal no matter what you fail to do or follow through with. There comes a time in R where no matter what the WS does, heck you could become superman, the healing will be hers alone to accomplish. After all is said and done, she will be left with an upheaval of emotions that can squash her in a single moment on a day to day basis. And it will have nothing to do with your heroic effort to accomplish the work before you. So your correlation between your success and her healing is not so pieced together. And if she should fail to heal sufficiently it will not be her failing.

From what I have read, particularly your setting her up to fail throughout your M, it would be easy for you to put it on her in the end. Telling yourself "I did everything I could,but she FAILED to heal". Seems like she's being set up again. Sabotaging healing by dripping out truths will likely cause her NEVER to heal.
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 07:16 PM
Quote
I am really at a loss what to do or say at times like this, and feeling helpless and afraid is where I am at.

Sometimes there is simply nothing you can say or do. If she doesn't want you to sit with her, don't. Don't leave her in the house by herself. Reassure her you'll be there for her if she calls on you but give her some space to grieve.
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by MicheleG
I wanted to point out that SSS may not be able to heal no matter what you fail to do or follow through with. There comes a time in R where no matter what the WS does, heck you could become superman, the healing will be hers alone to accomplish. After all is said and done, she will be left with an upheaval of emotions that can squash her in a single moment on a day to day basis. And it will have nothing to do with your heroic effort to accomplish the work before you.

Post of the day!

Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by MicheleG
Quote
I am totally confident that if I can master this and work this for the rest of my life, that SSS and I will succeed. In fact, the odds are 100%. The only remaining doubts are 1) that SSS will not be able to heal, which in my opinion can only happen if I fail to do this and follow through,


GM, I haven't posted to you before but I have been following you and SSS from the beginning. I wanted to point out that SSS may not be able to heal no matter what you fail to do or follow through with. There comes a time in R where no matter what the WS does, heck you could become superman, the healing will be hers alone to accomplish. After all is said and done, she will be left with an upheaval of emotions that can squash her in a single moment on a day to day basis. And it will have nothing to do with your heroic effort to accomplish the work before you. So your correlation between your success and her healing is not so pieced together. And if she should fail to heal sufficiently it will not be her failing.

From what I have read, particularly your setting her up to fail throughout your M, it would be easy for you to put it on her in the end. Telling yourself "I did everything I could,but she FAILED to heal". Seems like she's being set up again. Sabotaging healing by dripping out truths will likely cause her NEVER to heal.

Thanks for that reminder of reality. I don't believe I am setting her up to fail, but I take very seriously your warning. It is hard for me to reconcile the concept of radical honesty, and answering her questions that, if radically honest, will end up triggering or hurting her.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Quote
I am really at a loss what to do or say at times like this, and feeling helpless and afraid is where I am at.

Sometimes there is simply nothing you can say or do. If she doesn't want you to sit with her, don't. Don't leave her in the house by herself. Reassure her you'll be there for her if she calls on you but give her some space to grieve.

Thank you.
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 07:33 PM
GM, I just read your wife's posts.

Please remember that Radical Honesty is not a weapon.
When sss asks a question, if she say's that's all she wants to hear right now, then stop!
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 08:53 PM
How was the goat walk?

Like tst said, if sss tells you to stop then stop. You don't want to crush her until there is nothing left. Don't put anymore burden on her than she can handle in the name of RH. You have a strong wife GM but you may have to bare some of this burden on your own. If you want to get it off you chest by saying it out loud, talk to your goats or dogs while you are walking them. Confess it to God. He's always listening. wink
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 08:59 PM
I will. Many times it sounds like a question, but I have to learn to not say anything back. That has turned out to be a major challenge for me. I wish I could just go back 26 years, call a Mulligan, and start over.
Posted By: Wknghrd2LoveEasy Re: WH back from hospital - 03/25/09 11:10 PM
GM,

I do not believe that I have ever posted to you before, but I have been reading both your's and SSS's threads from the beginning.

I think you have not even begun to scratch the surface of your issues.

All of this is said in a gentle tone of voice to you, but I suspect it may come off as angry and loud.

If you are truly interested in saving your marriage, you had better to learn to shut your mouth and START LISTENING. Your inability to HEAR(and I mean that literally) is going to drive your wife completely away from you.

You have spent your entire life trying to fulfill your own needs at the expense of everyone around you.

Now, YOU have the need to be "radically honest" at the expense of your wife's emotional health. WHEN will you get this? WHEN will you realize that this is NOT ABOUT YOU? WHEN?

Where is the POJA in what you are doing?

You seem unable to set yourself aside for your wife's benefit. You cry and feel sorry for yourself because you feel lost and uncertain. When is your wife going to see a truly strong man who is able to put her feelings ahead of his own? Or at the very least, a man who refuses to allow his feelings to trample all over his wife's ego.

If you feel the need to talk so much, then call tst, or the Harleys. STOP beating your wife up with your words. That is exactly how she feels. And if you do not stop it, you will lose her for good. It seems like you have merely traded having sex with other women for torturing your wife with DETAILS about having sex with other women. It is CLEAR to me that she does not WANT any more details. WHY is it not clear to you?

Personally, I believe it is not clear to you, because you don't want it that way. You believe that you know better than your wife what is good for her. You don't. You are doing her no favors. I think you know that though.

You have a serious control problem. Classic,actually. If you have not read Controlling People by Patricia Evans, RUN to the store and get it. I mean that. RUN. DO NOT read it with your wife. I think you will be truly shocked at what you read. She describes you perfectly. You can read this book and it will not interfere with the MB program in any way.

When a control problem is present, it is almost impossible to make the MB principles work in a marriage.


Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 12:27 AM
Stay the MB course my friend. I'm praying for you and sss.

((((((sss & GM)))))))
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Wknghrd2LoveEasy
GM,

I do not believe that I have ever posted to you before, but I have been reading both your's and SSS's threads from the beginning.

I think you have not even begun to scratch the surface of your issues.

All of this is said in a gentle tone of voice to you, but I suspect it may come off as angry and loud.

If you are truly interested in saving your marriage, you had better to learn to shut your mouth and START LISTENING. Your inability to HEAR(and I mean that literally) is going to drive your wife completely away from you.

You have spent your entire life trying to fulfill your own needs at the expense of everyone around you.

Now, YOU have the need to be "radically honest" at the expense of your wife's emotional health. WHEN will you get this? WHEN will you realize that this is NOT ABOUT YOU? WHEN?

Where is the POJA in what you are doing?

You seem unable to set yourself aside for your wife's benefit. You cry and feel sorry for yourself because you feel lost and uncertain. When is your wife going to see a truly strong man who is able to put her feelings ahead of his own? Or at the very least, a man who refuses to allow his feelings to trample all over his wife's ego.

If you feel the need to talk so much, then call tst, or the Harleys. STOP beating your wife up with your words. That is exactly how she feels. And if you do not stop it, you will lose her for good. It seems like you have merely traded having sex with other women for torturing your wife with DETAILS about having sex with other women. It is CLEAR to me that she does not WANT any more details. WHY is it not clear to you?

Personally, I believe it is not clear to you, because you don't want it that way. You believe that you know better than your wife what is good for her. You don't. You are doing her no favors. I think you know that though.

You have a serious control problem. Classic,actually. If you have not read Controlling People by Patricia Evans, RUN to the store and get it. I mean that. RUN. DO NOT read it with your wife. I think you will be truly shocked at what you read. She describes you perfectly. You can read this book and it will not interfere with the MB program in any way.

When a control problem is present, it is almost impossible to make the MB principles work in a marriage.

I am aware of my control problem and am trying to deal with it. I will get that book. I did not even know I had been continuing to sugar coat what I felt for the OW. I actually thought it had been spilled out there. Today, I told SSS that I had felt passion and love for the OW. This is not something she did not know. I thought that I had admitted that, but apparently I did not. I sugar coated it. As I unravel and surrender myself, many old rationalizations are unpeeling. I honestly thought that I had told her everything. Now I have nothing. No pretense, no lies. But I also have no SSS. It seems like now I also have no hope. If ever there was a bottom, I am there. I am sorry for SSS and sorry for my whole life, really. If anyone or anything can help me, please help. I really need God's help.
Posted By: Wknghrd2LoveEasy Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 02:26 AM
GM,

Listen to tst. Stay the MB course. Pray for God's help and you will be able to do this.

My post was not about whether or not you had told SSS everything or not. My post was about you NOT telling her anything anymore. She does not want details. Do not give them to her. Listen to her. She said to stop giving her details. STOP giving her details. To continue when she has said to stop is a Love Buster.

When you feel the need to unload the things you have done, unload them to a friend, not to SSS.

My suggestion to you is that while you may have a NEED to be O&H, your wife does not have the need for your unbridled O&H. It seems to me that HER need trumps yours.

Yes, GM ,you have done terrible things for a long time, but you are not the first person to do that. The apostle Paul killed followers of Christ. He was known as Saul and was feared by all men until the Lord knocked him off a horse and blinded him and gave him another chance. Turns out that blinding him actually opened his eyes to the TRUTH.

Seems to me that you have been knocked off your horse and now your eyes are opened.

Rejoice that you have been given the same kind of second chance. Your wife clearly wants to be happy with you. All you have to do is stop the LBs and fill her Love Bank.

I am telling you that you MUST stop feeling sorry for yourself though. Look to heaven. Thank God in the midst of this that despite all, your wife is still here. Focus on the NEW life that is right in front of you. No hope? It doesn't look like that to me at all.

My guess is that you want to jump to the end of the story and see if SSS stays with you or leaves you. It does not work that way though. DO THE WORK. That's all you can do. Literally one day at a time. Stop the focus on what the final outcome will or will not be. Focus on TODAY. Not yesterday, not tomorrow.

LISTEN to SSS. She is a smart woman who is becoming increasingly self-aware. She knows what she needs and wants and she knows how to tell you. You have the possibility of a good(even great) life here.

Read the Acts of the Apostles to see what miracle works God can do in a man's life. That man can be YOU GM. Really.
Posted By: MicheleG Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 02:52 AM
As stated above, listen to and RESPECT SSS' wishes. If she has had enough, stop.

This is going to take years. You can read the books, do the paperwork, counsel with the Harleys and cry a river, but you cannot speed up the healing process.

Slow it down or you're going to derail the train.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 05:32 AM
Thank you, everyone. I do feel your prayers. I was asking for them. I will press ahead with the MB course. O and H does have its limits, and I am aware of them. I didn't volunteer the information today. Really. SSS drew it out of me, She believes that she didn't, but she did. Is there any really good answer other than the honest one?
Posted By: inrecoverynow Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Is there any really good answer other than the honest one?

No, but it's the way you convey honesty. And respecting your spouse's needs during said honesty session.

For example, I'm still dealing with triggers after two years of my husband's behavior. (In our case, we're dealing with addiction issue and he failed to tell me that he knew he had issues before we married.)

So, yesterday his behavior triggered me. I had two choices.

Choice A would have been: "I'm so f'n tired of have triggers of your behavior, something that I didn't cause, nor did I ask for. I'm f' tired of dealing with this. I'm sick of it. You KNOW this type of behavior triggers me. Why the h8ll do you keep doing it?"

Choice B would be: "Honey, I'm having another trigger. I'm hurting because of it. I know we talked about your behavior yesterday, but, it affected me enough to dream about it. Can we talk?"

Both responses are honest responses. Which would you rather hear? Something nice or repeats of the f-bomb? Which would make you want to work with me, if I were your spouse?

Other resources for control issues that might be useful are books on codependency. Melody Beattie and Pia Mellody are the authors for things. One of the markers of codependency is the need to control everything.
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 01:50 PM
GM-
Even though your wife asks you for information, bc she needs to know to fill in the gaps of her life- you should be very gentle and preface your answers with saying that those hurtful behaviors you participated in were truly the actions of a broken man- and that you would not do those same things now.

Please post to dr. harley. He is the man who created this program - so why not use him as a resource??? also - kim- our weekend follow up person is a wonderful resource. she has alreayd helped me and my H get through some tough days this week. Use the resources we were given.

my thoughts and prayers are with you and sss, sf
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by GreenMile
It is hard for me to reconcile the concept of radical honesty, and answering her questions that, if radically honest, will end up triggering or hurting her.

Withholding will cause much more damage, though, keep that in mind. If you want to cause some REAL damage, withhold some hurtful information and just let her SENSE it for a couple of years until she manages to drag it out one tidbit at a time. The way to recover is to lance the wound NOW and then get on with healing. Putting a bandaid over it will just cause it to fester and grow. Radical honesty will make her hurt and trigger NOW rather than hurt and trigger COMPOUNDED for the next few years until she gets it all out.

Quote
Radical honesty is so important in marriage that there is a much greater risk of divorce when a couple is not radically honest, than there is when a couple reveals very hurtful information to each other. In other words, you face a much greater risk of divorce by keeping those email letters secret than you do by revealing them. That's why we always recommend full disclosure.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 02:14 PM
p.s. and whatever you do, don't play it like a hostile defense witness who only answers DIRECT QUESTIONS. That just infuriated me with my H. I needed CONTEXT and context is not forthcoming when you only answer DIRECT questions. Give her the WHOLE STORY about EVERYTHING.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by inrecoverynow
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Is there any really good answer other than the honest one?

No, but it's the way you convey honesty. And respecting your spouse's needs during said honesty session.

For example, I'm still dealing with triggers after two years of my husband's behavior. (In our case, we're dealing with addiction issue and he failed to tell me that he knew he had issues before we married.)

So, yesterday his behavior triggered me. I had two choices.

Choice A would have been: "I'm so f'n tired of have triggers of your behavior, something that I didn't cause, nor did I ask for. I'm f' tired of dealing with this. I'm sick of it. You KNOW this type of behavior triggers me. Why the h8ll do you keep doing it?"

Choice B would be: "Honey, I'm having another trigger. I'm hurting because of it. I know we talked about your behavior yesterday, but, it affected me enough to dream about it. Can we talk?"

Both responses are honest responses. Which would you rather hear? Something nice or repeats of the f-bomb? Which would make you want to work with me, if I were your spouse?

Other resources for control issues that might be useful are books on codependency. Melody Beattie and Pia Mellody are the authors for things. One of the markers of codependency is the need to control everything.

Thanks for the nice response and suggestions. Very difficult to do that in the middle of a situation that is already emotionally charged up and uncomfortable, but that is a skill that I need to develop.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by sunflower55
GM-
Even though your wife asks you for information, bc she needs to know to fill in the gaps of her life- you should be very gentle and preface your answers with saying that those hurtful behaviors you participated in were truly the actions of a broken man- and that you would not do those same things now.

Please post to dr. harley. He is the man who created this program - so why not use him as a resource??? also - kim- our weekend follow up person is a wonderful resource. she has alreayd helped me and my H get through some tough days this week. Use the resources we were given.

my thoughts and prayers are with you and sss, sf

Thanks, Sunflower. In the case of yesterday, it was not really details or new information, it was answering a question about my feelings during the affair, and the effect of those feelings on the sexual experience.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by GreenMile
It is hard for me to reconcile the concept of radical honesty, and answering her questions that, if radically honest, will end up triggering or hurting her.

Withholding will cause much more damage, though, keep that in mind. If you want to cause some REAL damage, withhold some hurtful information and just let her SENSE it for a couple of years until she manages to drag it out one tidbit at a time. The way to recover is to lance the wound NOW and then get on with healing. Putting a bandaid over it will just cause it to fester and grow. Radical honesty will make her hurt and trigger NOW rather than hurt and trigger COMPOUNDED for the next few years until she gets it all out.

Quote
Radical honesty is so important in marriage that there is a much greater risk of divorce when a couple is not radically honest, than there is when a couple reveals very hurtful information to each other. In other words, you face a much greater risk of divorce by keeping those email letters secret than you do by revealing them. That's why we always recommend full disclosure.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thank you. I do understand that. I had disclosed everything, I thought, but I had minimized the amount of love and passion I felt during the affair in earlier disclosures to SSS, really because I was disgusted by what I had done, and that led me to remember my feelings as less than they were. I don't know if that is abnormal or pathological. I had been projecting my current feelings back to the time of the affair, and that was not being honest with myself or her. It was coloring the past with the feelings of the present. That is not honest, and I stopped that. In that sense, it was a new revelation, though she told me many times that she knew that already.

It really worries me. If I can let my humiliation, embarrassment, remorse, and grief color the past in my own memory to make it more palatable to me, then how can I know whether I am being honest or not in the present regarding the past? As I come to grips emotionally with what I have really done, my story changes, because I start remembering it for what it was rather than in a way that makes it easier for me to deal with within myself. Does that make sense? Is that an adaptation that all humans have, or am I really abnormal and need psychiatric help for that? Is that the mark of a "born liar" as Dr. Harley listed in his seminar? Or were all my lies just "stay out of trouble lies" as he describes. I want to think they were "stay out of trouble" lies, which can be cured through making radical honesty a habit. If they are the other type, then I need even more help than I thought. It worries me, and it worries SSS. If I am a pathological liar, then she does not want to waste even more of her life on me, and I don't blame her.

Posted By: sunflower55 Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 03:38 PM
GM-
being a BS with a FWH with also a LONG history of infideltiy and lying wiht many partners- i can just give you my feelings about this one.

when i asked my h for facts and details about the affairs i wanted absolute honesty. when i asked him about his feelings - these are NOT facts - he could adjust his feeling statements to take into account what was happening at the time he was cheating and the fact that he was now committed to our marriage.

so i hoped inside - that when i asked him who the sex was the best with - who did this or that the best - who did he love... that he would say - NO ONE was better than you- these were all sick actions of a broken man- one who really wanted a relationship with you - but who was too broken to know how to create that. all these sex acts did not have true love and it was YOU that i really wanted - i just was too fearful, or broken or whatever you want to say - to know how to do that - so in a very selfish way - i sought out weak subsitutes.

this would have helped me heal and start to feel things fro him again.

my H did not say these things- he said hurtful things that drew us apart further. then i did finally tell him what words would help me heal - and he began to help me by saying th ings like that.
good luck , SF
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 04:29 PM
That is very familiar. I have been adjusting feelings statements, because my current feelings in real time seem to bleed backward and color my recollection of my feelings with the OW. But looking at the facts is different. Just from the number of phone calls I made to OW, the hikes we went on together, which fulfilled a need for recreational companionship, and of course the sexual fulfillment clearly filled my love bank above the "in love" threshold with that woman, even though she was never the kind of woman I would really want to ever have a committed life relationship with. SSS is the only woman I ever wanted that with and remains so to this day, even though our love banks were bled down below the hate threshold for years. The worst cruelty on my part was not letting her go years ago and try to find a good life with a man she would be happy with. I kept her hanging on with false statements of love and commitment and basically took her life away from her. It is detestable in the extreme. I ought to be taken out and shot. Really. It was my own cowardice that did that. But you know what? I feel guilty even saying this, but I am selfishly glad that she is still with me, and that we can have a chance to make a real marriage with whatever time we both have left in the world. I am thrilled at the prospect but feel guilty that she never had a chance to make the last 26 years happy for her.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 04:32 PM
You could let her go....now!
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 05:01 PM
gm-
my husband and i have had the exact same conversations- his affairs were for 12 years - but his abuse and control of me was for 31 years.

yet - i now know that i was a participant in this sick marriage. another woman - a whole woman - would have not been attracted to him to marry him - and when she was married- she would never ahve stayed after his first AO.

so maybe sss has issues too. she could have dumped you too long ago.

even though- you are definitley more culpable- as you manipulated and lied- and she was straight and true.

if you believe you can become the spouse she deserved for all these years and truly committed to DO WHATEVER IT TAKES
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 05:04 PM
gm-
sorry - sent it by accident without finishing-
and do whatever it takes to win her back- then keep at it.

remember dr. harley's words???? these are all HABITS that can be changed and relearned.

sf
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 06:57 PM
I sent you an e-mail, reply when you can!
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 08:12 PM
[quote=Bubbles4U]You could let her go....now! [/quote She is a grown woman, and a strong one at that. If she decides she wants that, she is perfectly capable of telling me to go. I am not holding her captive. This is a decision she will have to make. I will do everything I can to make that a decision she never wants to make. But it is her decision.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by tst
I sent you an e-mail, reply when you can!

I just did. Thanks, TST.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by sunflower55
gm-
sorry - sent it by accident without finishing-
and do whatever it takes to win her back- then keep at it.

remember dr. harley's words???? these are all HABITS that can be changed and relearned.

sf

You are so sweet, Sunflower. Thanks for the reminder. I know that they are habits that can be unlearned. I am counting on it, and so is SSS.

Today has been much better. We have been working together all day on projects and have enjoyed each other's company and companionship. The bad days will come often enough, but if we can eliminate the love busters, meet each others EN's, eliminate the independent behavior, and always implement POJA, we can recover enough to have a good life together. That is our goal.
Posted By: Lilybelle Re: WH back from hospital - 03/26/09 09:29 PM
Hi GM,

I am married to your twin, except we are 5 years out from discovery. 25 years of reality and choices were "stolen" from me. too. I really think I can and want to support you and your w. I've offered her my email addy but she hasn't responded. I think I could save you guys about 4 years of misery. Of course, it's the hardest thing we've ever been through, but it is possible to come out together. The main goal is to come out healthier - together is a bonus. Frustrating to watch you both doing this dance. I am available - lilybelle100@yahoo.com

Best -L
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 03/27/09 03:31 AM
Hi, Lillybelle. SSS got your message and will be getting back to you. She is very interested in what you have to say. We have been immersed in projects together and also the MB exercizes and lessons.

I am delighted for you that you have found something to help you. SSS and I are 100% committed to MB and cannot let any other program confuse or dilute it, or it will not work. We have invested everything in it. After going to the weekend and meeting and listening to Dr. Harley, I can tell you, as a person with a science background, that MB is empirical, logical, and works if it is followed, and the statistics and experience over many years proves it. It makes total sense to me and to SSS.

If it doesn't work, then we will not be together and will thus need no other program. I don't think that will happen, but I dearly appreciate your offer of help and wish you continued success. One question, though. Why are you on the MB forums, if you have had success with another program?
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 04/10/09 05:45 PM
Been trying to update things, but every time I post and submit, it is lost, and it logs me out to boot. Will try again:

We are spending a lot of time together and trying very hard. So many triggers. Good days and bad days. The staff here has been wonderful with their encouragement, but there is so much healing needed before we can make a lot of progress on the lessons. SSS and I have so much fun together on the good days and are really made for each other. I was so immature, angry, and demanding for so long and completely lacked a moral compass. My miserable character made of mess of a potentially great marriage. We may not succeed no matter how hard we try, but encouragement is the lifeblood of our chances. We just have to trust in the program and trust in God to help us and to help me be worthy of recovery. Whatever helps SSS to heal is all that is important.
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: WH back from hospital - 04/15/09 04:24 AM
GM-
hi - i have been reading your posts on the weekend forum and now just this one. your words and emotions are dead on. you know the truth of your past - and you are learning from your past - how you want to live the present and the future.

you sound like my H. sss needs time and assurance from you in order to heal.

she is a burn victim - and every trigger that happens- or misstep by you- will cause her tremendous pain- as you have seen.

do not shrink away when she is in pain- but stay by her- support her in any way you can- as you seem to be doing.

THINK hard before you say things to her- and imagine that you are her - and how it would feel to hear those words. empathize with her pain- and let her feel bathed in your love.

continued feelings of love and safety - will allow her to heal and move forward.

sf
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 04/15/09 01:40 PM
Thanks, Sunflower. I appreciate your wise words and encouragement. I wish the best for you two, as well.
Posted By: turtlehead Re: WH back from hospital - 04/15/09 03:15 PM
Sorry to hear about the posting problems. It's good to see an update from you. I wonder about you two.

SSS has been hurt more than anyone I remember seeing on these boards. I'm surprised she gave you a chance at reconciliation but I must say you are stepping up to the plate admirably.

It's lovely to hear you say that her healing is what's important in all this. Happily, you can help her most by working honestly on yourself, which you appear to be doing.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 04/15/09 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by turtlehead
Sorry to hear about the posting problems. It's good to see an update from you. I wonder about you two.

SSS has been hurt more than anyone I remember seeing on these boards. I'm surprised she gave you a chance at reconciliation but I must say you are stepping up to the plate admirably.

It's lovely to hear you say that her healing is what's important in all this. Happily, you can help her most by working honestly on yourself, which you appear to be doing.

I am, Turtlehead. Thank you. It is not fair to SSS that she has to work on all this also, because I am totally at fault, but to make a sound marriage and restore romantic love, SSS is finding some aspects of the lessons difficult also, and require change and new habits for her as well as for me. But she is taking this on with determination, also. I think one of the hardest things (though the best thing) for me is re-discovering how remarkable she is. Though it makes me redouble my efforts to stay married to her and to make the necessary radical changes in my life and and the way I see the world, it amplifies the horror I feel when I realize what I have squandered and the value of the woman who I betrayed. I think about that many times every day.

For reasons that are difficult for me to explain, she really still likes me and still loves me. If I can help her heal enough in the next few years to get her through most days without pain, we will make make it. I am sure of it. But it is entirely up to me. I think my plan to protect my weaknesses is a good one and is strong. As long as I pay attention to it, I am safe. I don't think that is really different for any couple. It is true for everyone. Everyone needs such a plan. Steve Harley explained to me that no one is ever safe without a conscious plan. That is why 60% of all marriages are marked by episodes of infidelity.
Posted By: black_raven Re: WH back from hospital - 05/08/09 02:02 PM
**********
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: WH back from hospital - 05/08/09 04:33 PM
Hey GM,

I really liked what PM had to say on another thread, so I moved it over here.

Originally Posted by PrincessMeggy
May I offer a different theory? My DH was similar to this at first in our recovery. He COULD NOT handle it when I spiraled down. His words were as if he were pacing the room wringing his hands, wanting to know but afraid to ask, what he could do to fix this. He couldn't. He just couldn't. Anything he said would be read by me as patronizing or insincere or dishonest. I had no trust left to trust his words that the past is the past. What's done is done.

After a few months of this, and him exclaiming several times that, "It's always going to be like this isn't it? You're going to punish me for the rest of my life", clearly not understanding, he finally got it. He learned that it was part of the healing process, there WAS nothing he could do at that moment to make it better. He finally learned that the best he could do was to hold me and to quietly just.be.there. as I healed. I remember one of the things he exclaimed often was, "I don't know what you want from me! What can I do?!?"

I didn't have the answer because I didn't know. It just was. I could not express what I was feeling without sounding pitiful to myself. I didn't have MB at the time, but you do.

Thankfully, we made it through and things are better than ever between us. We walked through the fire and survived..........
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 05/09/09 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by tst
Hey GM,

I really liked what PM had to say on another thread, so I moved it over here.

Originally Posted by PrincessMeggy
May I offer a different theory? My DH was similar to this at first in our recovery. He COULD NOT handle it when I spiraled down. His words were as if he were pacing the room wringing his hands, wanting to know but afraid to ask, what he could do to fix this. He couldn't. He just couldn't. Anything he said would be read by me as patronizing or insincere or dishonest. I had no trust left to trust his words that the past is the past. What's done is done.

After a few months of this, and him exclaiming several times that, "It's always going to be like this isn't it? You're going to punish me for the rest of my life", clearly not understanding, he finally got it. He learned that it was part of the healing process, there WAS nothing he could do at that moment to make it better. He finally learned that the best he could do was to hold me and to quietly just.be.there. as I healed. I remember one of the things he exclaimed often was, "I don't know what you want from me! What can I do?!?"

I didn't have the answer because I didn't know. It just was. I could not express what I was feeling without sounding pitiful to myself. I didn't have MB at the time, but you do.

Thankfully, we made it through and things are better than ever between us. We walked through the fire and survived..........

Thanks, TST. I continually refer to the things you have told me and written and your wonderful encouragement. Times are very tough for SSS right now, because it is our anniversary and mothers day both this weekend. You know. You have been there. I don't always manage to be strong and encouraging, because my guilt is so enormous that it beggars description, and when I am reminded of that, it hurts so bad that it is hard to remain strong. Then I start to focus on my own pain. It is hard not to. It hurts like fire. But she is in pain of a magnitude I can never imagine. But I have to imagine it... and feel it, too. I put her there. Pain is pain. Some day, she may be willing to resume working the MB program. In the meantime, I will try to remember all the things you have taught me, and I will try to do the MB lessons as much as I can on my own and become her source of greatest solace and comfort. Right now, no matter what I do in this program, how I meet her EN's, when she looks at me, she mostly sees only the person who destroyed her life and ruined all her memories. It may turn out to be too much. Neither of us really knows. But I will not quit. I will fight for her. If she eventually gives up and sends me packing, I will understand and not blame her.

We have really good days. We really do. Then the sky turns dark and begins to boil, and the seven plagues are unleashed on the world. Blood, locusts, killing of the firstborn, hail the size of baseballs, posts from Black Raven.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/13/10 04:19 AM
Hi, everyone. I have not posted for a long, long time, so I wanted to just check in with you all.

We are a year out from the final D-day. I can tell that MSM is starting to heal a bit, but it is slow going, and there are always daily triggers and fleeting return to the full horror of the carnage that I left of MSM's life...and my own. But there are many, many good days, and I give thanks for every moment and feel so much gratitude and love for all the help and the often tough love that was extended to us both from all of you on the forum. When I try to step back and look objectively at our situation and what is slowly happening in our recovery, I allow myself to project that MSM may actually be ready to return to the MB lessons in another year or so.

I know everyone would love to hear that we are deep into recovery and success, and that we are building love units daily and following the normal ascending curve of couples who have turned to Marriage Builders at their darkest time, but I cannot really say that. I was so terrible as a husband and as a human being for so many years, that it was actually criminal that I did not let MSM go and make a decent life for herself 25 years ago. No rational person could expect her to put that aside and go on. For MSM to make the progress that she has in the last year is as miraculous as my own transformation as a person. In addition to her grief and anger, she is dealing with gigantic feelings of worthlessness and embarrassment that she did not put a stop to our marriage long ago and feelings of being a fool for staying with me. But there is hope, and there is still recovery happening. I am in it for the long haul, and she is starting to believe that, though she won't dare admit it. We both want it. And neither of us is facing the future with blinders on.

I will try to keep you posted from time to time. I love you all, even the folks who were mean to us LOL. I understand its origin and its purpose.
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: WH back from hospital - 01/13/10 04:35 AM
GM, thank you for the update. I am glad to hear you are still as committed to recovery as you were a year ago. MSM is a lovely woman and you are very blessed.

tst and I care for you both and are hopeful for your marriage. Your patience, gentleness, consistency, and commitment are the key, and it sounds like you understand that. Please tell MSM hello for me.

As horrible as you were, today you are a different man because you choose to be.
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/13/10 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by sexymamabear
GM, thank you for the update. I am glad to hear you are still as committed to recovery as you were a year ago. MSM is a lovely woman and you are very blessed.

tst and I care for you both and are hopeful for your marriage. Your patience, gentleness, consistency, and commitment are the key, and it sounds like you understand that. Please tell MSM hello for me.

As horrible as you were, today you are a different man because you choose to be.
kiss
Posted By: MicheleG Re: WH back from hospital - 01/13/10 12:00 PM
GM, thanks for the update. MSM will struggle with the anger she has for herself for quite sometime. Even though my FWH only had 1 A, I look back at the red flags that were present throughout our R that I chose to dismiss and I have a hard time forgiving myself. I hope I can teach my children to choose differently.

This will take years GM. Glad you two keep moving in a positive direction.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: WH back from hospital - 01/13/10 03:09 PM
Thank you for the update GM, from me too!

Originally Posted by GreenMile
In addition to her grief and anger, she is dealing with gigantic feelings of worthlessness and embarrassment that she did not put a stop to our marriage long ago and feelings of being a fool for staying with me.
GM, you are right, these are gigantic feelings, and they are a huge hurdle to overcome. Please tell your wife that she is not alone with these feelings, I struggled with them too.
Continue to give her your time and love, and prove to her that she made the right choice to choose R of her M.
You sound like you understand what she is struggling with, and this is a reflection of your own growth .... smile

Please tell MSM that I hope she is DWG, and that I think of her very often and miss her.
hug
Posted By: GreenMile Re: WH back from hospital - 01/13/10 04:35 PM
Thanks to you both. I will pass that along.
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