Marriage Builders
Posted By: Chryss False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 06:27 AM
I posted quite a bit in the fall when H and I decided to rebuild after 1-1/2 month physical separation and he had started a relationship with someone else. We were doing well, I thought, until Feb 9 when it came out that the relationship never stopped. D day was horrible - I knew there was something off and insisted on access to all email addresses. He gave them, and I found MORE than I ever wanted to know - naked pics she emaioed, mention of his suprising her the night he came back from Cuba and how much love they shared. Spent two weeks in complete hell, tried to get answers of why and how could you... Only to hear, I am confused, fencesitting, cake eating etc.

Three days ago I went into Plan B - wrote a letter, etc. I think it was a good letter, and he responded by phone, he loved me, cried, but can't give me what I want right now. How good it felt to hear my voice, etc. That he is here for me if ANYTHING comes up that I ever need anything and he will love me until the end of his life, but can't give up her as he doesn't know....

I said - no - you need to feel the total absence of me in your life, I am not giving up on us, I want to spend my life with you, but have to protect my love as I can't watch what you are doing, etc. And I said I do not know where my head will be down the road - I may move on by then, or not - but don't contact me in anyway unless you are prepared to meet conditions I've set.

So... here I sit. I cry on the way home, I taking sleeping pills to get any miserable sleep. Am trying to take care of me and kids - planning to move closer to family and friends, have a spa trip planned, focussing on work which helps. I just need to believe that a very DARK plan B will bring him back. I need to believe that it is the best chance we've got. My family and friends think I crazy - he isn't worth it, but I love him, really love him. There is no pill you can taked to make that go away. Our false recovery was my Plan A, and I think it made an impact as he said it was really wonderful and he meant everything he said. BUT he continued to F*&^ her didn't he?

I have to push the obsessive thoughts I have of the emails out of my mind - how she calls him BABE in a sultry voice on the phone. How she lives two streets away, while I am now an hour away. He says I am on his mind everyday. I'm just a mess.

Help!!! Everyday is SO hard. I want to call but stop myself, it's been two days totally dark and it's been hell. God, one day at a time is really really really painful.

Oh gosh {{{{{{{{{{{{Chryss}}}}}}}}}}}

I can just feel that pain and sadness inside. I'm sorry you are hurting.

I went into Plan B because people on here told me it was my ONLY choice to SAVE my M. I was willing to go to ANY length to fight for my M, even if it meant letting him go and letting the A die down.

Believer, the rock solid woman who says A almost ALWAYS END.

Plan B was so hard for me. I missed my H so much and to willingly put myself in a place where I wasn't going to see him possibly for the rest of my life. OY VEY...

But desperate measures takes desperate actions and I trusted G-d and the people on here.

In the end it was the BEST thing I could do. I was forced to work on myself and still need to. I'm a project in the works for sure still. But I got that elusive peace in my life which I treasure. I was out of the chaos. I am healing day by day. I still have my moments.

Unfortunately this all takes time. It's our best friend and it's the worst friend. You are so right, this addict would like nothing better to have that magic pill to take and make it better, but you can't. You get to crawl your way back to survival and life and you can do it by coming here, being honest with yourself and just TRUSTING G-d. He will lead you to healing. He wants that for you.

I need to be honest with you as so many were with me. Plan B is NOT about bringing him back. For sure that's the benefit, but it's about you healing you, preserving the love you have for him and when and if the day comes where recovery can begin, you will have the strength to go out and work hard. Plan B can't be a punishment. You are taking the risk that he won't be back. You HAVE to be willing to take that risk.

My WH's A it seems just broke up. There is movement of some kind. But on March 17, 08 it will be ONE YEAR since I faced my H and said ONE WORD to him. I have been about as DARK as one can get. Did Plan B work? I don't know... I'm still walking in FAITH with G-d. Did Plan B work, ABSOLUTELY YES, because the woman who was destroyed two years ago doesn't exist. A new woman, we call her Queenie, and she is something amazing who has learned that I might not get my husband back, but I can survive.

You'll be ok. Trust the process, rely on the love and compassion here and walk with G-d.


Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 07:59 AM
Thank you so much for your reply. It's 3am here and I'm struggling to cope tonight. I read on a site that when you obsess about him with her, you should try to visualize a big red "STOP" sign, to get off that track. It helps a bit. And I journal everyday - I've written what I would say to him about all the hurt and pain, and I've written what I would love him to say to me if he came back. It has helped in the darkest moments.

But in the meantime, you wait. You check your voicemail, you check your email, you try to keep busy, you try to improve yourself, you try to believe there will be someone else that could make you feel like he did. It' just so empty.

Dreaming of him being beside me at night, and I roll over and wrap my arms over him only to find it isn't real.... that is so hard because it's so real. I can actually feel his skin....

Love really is a losing game isn't it?
Posted By: Looking4 Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 08:26 AM
I don't know that I can say anything meaningful to help you, Chrys. I too, can read how much pain you're in. I am sorry. I am so very sorry.

Do you have a support network of any kind there? Friends, family, neighbors, anyone who can come to you?

Continued prayers for you.

hug
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 01:55 PM
Thank you Looking4 and Queenie. My family is far away, and my close friends are also - although they are in the area I am hoping to relocate to later in the spring. We'll see if the house sells in this market.

Queenie, I've seen so many people follow your posts, and you truly inspire so many women hear to grow stronger and find their sense of self again. I can see how strong you are when you say it has been almost one year of a very Dark B. Even over holidays... you must have suffered so much...

Chryss has definitely not learned how to love herself. Chryss feels like someone ripped open and tore out everything inside of her, and left her to walk around bleeding all over the floor every day.

I know I did a bad job of meeting ENs - but over the four months of FR, I was very different, and he said he noticed. He also said that he felt inferior to me - and that hurts, as I always leaned on him. Over the past three years, he was my major support in working to complete my Masters, and then to successly attain a promotion that increased my income well above his. I worked toward this to make our lives easier/better. Now, he feels threatened by this, and found someone who has nothing, 3 kids, and is basically a simpleton. He said it is easy with her because he gives her 5 minutes and its enough. What is that? Is that love? I think she worships him and his ego is being stroked in a major way. He says he is intimidated by me and can't talk to me - only since I've been in my new professional role. I interact daily with corporate presidents and he is two years from retiring as a labourer at a steel company. AND I NEVER CARED ABOUT THAT! Obviously he did. SF was always very passionate, and time together without the kids was like we were soulmates. We had a lot of problems blending our families, lots of history there, and we hurt eachother a lot. But we both loved eachother, and he truly seems to be suffering at walking away. He says his heart loves me, and he aches so much for me, but his head has lost that feeling. Is this the I love you but I'm not in love with you speech with a new twist?

I live in the house we shared. I still think of it as ours and certain things as his -although everything here I guess is now just mine. I look at all the rose bushes and lilies he gave me for our garden. I look at the beautiful stone patio we laid in our garden last summer. His workbench in the garage is empty.
He took our bed, thank god, because I couldn't bear it if it were here, but I wonder - do they sleep in it?

I have to stop that. He need to go play out his little fantasy, and I need to do things to grow and get strong. I am even scared that if I do that, then I WILL move on and not be willing if he comes back. And I'm scared to do that,I don't want to do that.

Please - anyone who has actually been successful with Plan B in recovery their marriage???? I know there are a few out there - it would be so helpful to hear from you.... THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:01 PM
Chryss, why not try Plan B?
Posted By: doingfine Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:18 PM
Hi C,

sorry for your pain, I've been where your at, a few times.

Your H is only telling you those things to justify why he is doing what he's doing, he sounds like a victim, whinning about why your where your at and he's not, he found a simple girl to make him feel better, blah blah blah, its babble, don't listen to that. If the tables were turned and you were "simple" and she was his boss, he'd be singing the same tune but the other way around, trust me.
Plan B will be about recovering you. Before I knew about this site, I did a plan B, it did recover me, not watching what H was doing, not listening to his babble, not seeing how he was looking good, basically not getting involved in his stuff, and not being addicted to the whole scheme of it, thats what its about, working on you.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:18 PM
Hi Melody
I am on my third day of Plan B. And I'm really struggling through it. I keep telling myself the mantra of - it's our best chance to recover....

It's just my stages of grief are WICKED. I am angry one day (actually a great feeling as it feels empowering) then in denial another (he couldn't really be doing this to us), then depressed another day (life will never be good again). It's just the intensity of the emotions is more than anything I have ever ever experienced in my life. Worse than any of the other crises I've lived through - and there have been many. I see the value of Plan B - and hopefully with no possibility of seeing/talking to me, he is feeling my absence. It's just that it feels like I'm on a phone call and he put me on "hold", and I'm waiting for him to pick up again. I NEED time to pass, the pain to lessen and to get stronger. I NEED that because 1) I am useless to myself like this, and 2) what a very unattractive mess of a package I am for him to want to be with.

I almost want to kick people who say "Fake it til you make it". Yeah, easy words, hard hard reality.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
Hi Melody
I am on my third day of Plan B. And I'm really struggling through it. I keep telling myself the mantra of - it's our best chance to recover....

Chryss, but this is not Plan B:

Quote
Three days ago I went into Plan B - wrote a letter, etc. I think it was a good letter, and he responded by phone, he loved me, cried, but can't give me what I want right now. How good it felt to hear my voice, etc. That he is here for me if ANYTHING comes up that I ever need anything and he will love me until the end of his life, but can't give up her as he doesn't know....

Plan B is NO CONTACT. How many times have you been in contact with him? You also stated that you were waiting and checking email, etc. Are you waiting for contact FROM HIM?

See, Plan B means no contact and complete avoidance of contact. He is not allowed to get through.

So, did you send him a letter telling him NO CONTACT and then have contact with him right after? Because that is not Plan B, that is just confusing.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:30 PM
Thank you Doingfine. Then I guess I have to package all the words and emails he's sent and treat them as "fogbabble". Because I go over them in my mind a million times a day. It is like trying to walk on water - he told me this is what was wrong, and I fix it, then I take a step and there's no ground there. So he tells me something else, and I do it, and I take a step and again I sink. I am going to take everything said over the past months, and bundle it all together and label it "Fogbabble". Period.

There is some relief in not have new and shocking discoveries to rip my heart out everyday by being in Plan B. Not that I don't wonder, not that I don't want to get up at 1am and drive to his city to see if his car in in her driveway. How pathetic - I did that once - he wasn't there. But it didn't help, because the next night I was in the same position again.

It HAS to be HIM who decides. That's been the hardest part. I CANNOT do anything about what he is doing. WoW - imagine my surprise.....

I do wonder however, if Plan B isn't just a bit of a cat and mouse game - you know, just playing psychologically to make them want what they cannot have. Are emotions really that bloody simple??
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:34 PM
Hi Melody
Sorry - it sounded confusing - my plan B letter was an email, sent from a computer that completely crashed with a virus the next day. I received 3 delivery notifications. of failed delivery of his email. I called to see if he had received an email from me. Had the final conversation after that as he had received it. And then, nothing - no contact, no email, nothing. I left it that I wasn't giving up on us, loved him, but had to protect my feelings for him by having no contact in any way. Unless he comes to a point of deciding to invest 100% in us and meeting some conditions I had outlined earlier.

That is it. Completely DARK since that call. So, yes I think I'm in Plan B. I guess I just check my voicemail and Email in case he's had some great epiphany...... not realistic I know. Just wishful thinking.....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:36 PM
gotcha! Do you have an intermediary? And how will you know when he has an epiphany if you aren't taking his calls? Do you plan on taking all his calls to find out?
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:41 PM
I have call display at work and at home, and intend on letting them all go to voicemail. I think if it becomes too painful to hear his voice if he calls, I will have someone else listen and convey his messages. As far as email, I haven't planned how I'll react. So, in plan B, if he emails me and just says "How are you" in a months time, and I to IGNORE it? Would that not just drive him away? Or, should I have someone tell him that I won't respond until he is ready to work on us? As far as an intermediary, my friends think I am completely NUTS, as they are all married and swear they would kick him to the curb. (Yeah, that's what I used to say...)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:50 PM
Well, the goal of Plan B *IS* to drive him away. I would make plans to block his emails entirely.

To be honest, Chryss, since you have been dealing with this for 3+ years now, I would probably file for divorce. Since he has been getting away with using and abusing you for so many years, he has been TRAINED to mistreat you. I don't see him changing at all. He feels that there is nothing you can do to stop him, and he doesn't seem to worry about you divorcing him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 02:57 PM
Chryss, are you married to him?

And how is your son doing? Is he still with you?
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 03:41 PM
We have been engaged/common-law for 11 years - truly committed to eachother as a married couple. Both wore a band, etc. Second marriages for both, so the "paper" was something that held less value to us then the commitment. In our minds, we were married.

My son is still with me - doing better some ways, worse other. Will be 18 next month, and the things I have tolerated will end and he will be moving out with a friend then. Long story, but best thing for all, including my daughter. Yes,he is BP, but also totally "entitled", disrespectful, non-contributing, out of school, gangs of kids smoking up in my house while I work, etc.
Tough love time.....

I know it's been 3+ years, and lots of conflict. Lot's of not having the skills to resolve conflict. I contributed my share a lot - lots of AO's, DJ's, almost daily. He withdrew. Would reach out once in a while only to have his hand slapped back. Time away late last summer, separate houses, gave us space to breathe and we came back together in a new way (I thought) in late Sept. Little did Iknow, he found a bed warmer.

I know, it sounds weak and pitiful, but "I love him". Simple but not so simple. I'm not a stupid woman, not a weak woman. But, this emotion I can't seem to turn off even if I wanted.

Posted By: broken61 Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 03:43 PM
Your story sounds so much like mine..I love you and always will, but not like that..I don't regret our time together..blah, blah, blah.
I am working on Plan B myself..I have to have some limited contact due to getting things out of my house..but I feel like you do..wondering..like I am on hold too waiting for him to resume conversation.
I have heard the 'kick him to the curb' thing too, but when you love someone this deeply you can't do that.
I hope with all my heart that you heal and that he comes to his senses for you. You sound like a giving and caring person who only wanted the best for your family.
I too have been told that I am too strong, that he doesn't feel like a man..but he was MY ROCK..did he not know that? I told him everyday how much I love and need him..
Maybe one day both you and I will be in a better state, feeling like a person again..off this roller coaster of emotion.
I guess fate will determine our futures.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
We have been engaged/common-law for 11 years - truly committed to eachother as a married couple. Both wore a band, etc. Second marriages for both, so the "paper" was something that held less value to us then the commitment. In our minds, we were married. We have been engaged/common-law for 11 years - truly committed to eachother as a married couple. Both wore a band, etc. Second marriages for both, so the "paper" was something that held less value to us then the commitment. In our minds, we were married.

Chryss, the reason I asked is because I can TELL you both have renters/freeloaders attitudes, which is very typical in live in situations. He is not committed in any sense of the word, as is evidenced by his actions and by his failure to even bother to get married.

The reason these kind of arrangements have such a high failure rate is because shacking up is a TEST, rather than a committment. It is a TEST to see if one is compatible. It is analogous to the difference between renting a house and buying a house. The buyer will do what it takes to keep the house in good repair, the renter or freeloader is just there until something better comes along. In a real committment, the participants do what it takes to keep up the house. In a freeloaders situation, the folks are just around until something better comes along.

That is what has happened with your boyfriend. Since he is a free agent, and is not committed, he has moved on when something better came along.

Dr. Harley has some real good articles about living together that might be helpful: Living Together Before Marriage


Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 08:11 PM
Hi Melody
In a practical sense, I understand what you are saying. I would beg to differ in some respects, as we had our lives, rrsp's, pensions, life insurance, mortgages, children's lives, etc. completely intertwined. There was no "easy" walking away.

We had our wedding planned a couple of years ago at an inn in Nova Scotia, but several key people couldn't make it, and we postponed. BUT, I at least was not renting. Maybe he was. He has often said, that he would marry me any second if I said NOW. It just truly didn't mean anything to me. My parents divorced in an ugly mess, my first marriage failed due to mental illness and the logistics of ending it were horribly destructive to me psychologically. He was my husband in my heart, and I was his wife. In fact, it meant more to me, as I felt that I knew I wanted to be there totally, rather than just because of a piece of paper that said so. Sorry if this offends anyone with a different view of their vows - just had been burned more than once.

I hope you are not saying that I can't come here for support, because I am in dire need of it right now.
Posted By: doingfine Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 10:37 PM
Quote
I do wonder however, if Plan B isn't just a bit of a cat and mouse game - you know, just playing psychologically to make them want what they cannot have. Are emotions really that bloody simple??


no, that is not what plan B is.

There are two parts to plan B; the main part is, if you have no contact, period, zippo, none, then you are not in THIER STUFF, your not addictng yourself to what they are and are not doing, you have no idea, hopefully you won't care what they are doing, and if they aren't in contact with you it dosen't keep the fire going, them saying things that are hurtful, you hearing them and trying to make sense of them, you seeing them and it breaking your heart, then if they never come back, which is a possibility, you have already started to get over them.
the second part is; hopefully, (if you still want the marriage) the WS starts to miss you, they want to hear your voice, they want to see your face, and then maybe they start doing the things they need to do to get you back.
Plan B isn't a game, it is to help you, trust me, and it will, without plan B, they can just wander in and out with their drama and know that you'll be there to hear it, and see it, not good.
I don't know one person that ever regretted plan B when it was done correctly.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 02/28/09 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
My parents divorced in an ugly mess, my first marriage failed due to mental illness and the logistics of ending it were horribly destructive to me psychologically. He was my husband in my heart, and I was his wife. In fact, it meant more to me, as I felt that I knew I wanted to be there totally, rather than just because of a piece of paper that said so.

Chryss, is the situation you are in right now not horribly destructive to you psychologically? You have been here for 3 years and the situation and has only got worse and worse. You say you were scared of divorce, yet you entered into an agreement that was almost ensured a worse outcome and a higher rate of divorce if married. The statistics show that marriages that began by living together actually have a much higher divorce rate. To say there is no difference between living together and marriage shows you don't understand what happens in a marriage. They are like night and day.

I understand you are in pain and am not trying to minimize that, but I would point out that the situtation you are in is a result of your arrangement. You say you are all committed, but you can see that your bf is not; you did not believe it enough to go down and even get married. like you said, it is just a piece of paper. You are asking folks here to take your situation as seriously as a marriage, when you have just stated that you don't. You are asking us to take it more seriously than you do.

I bought a new car today and took it for a test drive. Do you think they would have taken my committment seriously if I would have said I won't bother to sign papers and pay you for it, that is just a "piece of paper." I "feel" committed in my heart.

Of course you can get help here, but I hope that you keep an open mind and read Dr Harley's words on this topic. He is right. And you are living proof.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 02:19 AM
Melody
I understand what you are saying, and I certainly can respect the sanctity of the vows of marriage. I do have a clear understanding of what a marriage is, what it entails and the commitment and work that it takes to build it. On this site I have seen several relationships where the marriage is less than 4 years old, both parties have cheated, and children are being used as chattel. The commitment and relationship that my partner and I had far exceeded the maturity level and understanding of these types of situations. I am not saying that I expect anyone here to take my relationship more seriously than I do. It appears "you" do not take my relationship seriously, and that it your prerogative. I appreciate your perspective as just that - your perspective.

If I have given the impression to you that I am scared of divorce, I do not recall saying those words. I know several people who have been in committed relationships without marrying for over 30 years. To assume that I know nothing of the difference between marriage and living together is really quite an assumption. The situation I am in is not a result of my "arrangement" as you put it. I did not take a car for a test drive, and expect to take the car with out signing the papers and paying for it. That is an oversimplification. I most certainly "paid" for the car. My relationship has been almost 12 years - longer that a good portion of the marriages on this site. The answer to situations do not always fit neatly in a box to be put and a shelf and labelled.

Not meaning to sound harsh, and I apologize if this appears that way.


Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 02:27 AM
Thanks doingfine. You are absolutely correct, and in fact, plan B really is kind of brilliant when you see it that way. Not easy, but brilliant. The best chance for the relationship, and the best chance for retaining your own sanity. If I post here and ramble, I beg indulgence- I am at my very most vulnerable and just "dump" it all here. Maybe it makes sense sometimes and I sound like I'm a sensible person, maybe I seem like a raving lunatic. But this is what I need right now, and I'm doing it here.

Thank you for not judging that my relationship of almost 12 is not "worthy" of equal consideration on this board.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 02:30 AM
I wish you the best, Chryss. smile
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 02:32 AM
Thank you Melody, and I wish the same for you.
Posted By: Cymanca Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 09:25 AM
Quote
Thank you for not judging that my relationship of almost 12 is not "worthy" of equal consideration on this board.

Not trying to be funny but would you have come to this site if it was called Living Together Builders?

Just trying to understand your peevishness towards people that are trying to help you.

Best of luck.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 03:10 PM
Alright - I am digesting the comments made, and am somewhat more open to hearing what is being said. I did take offence to the comments that I was not aware of the difference between being married or not. In reviewing and considering the categories outlined, i.e. freeloader, renter, buyer, I think the renter may apply in the case of my partner. I am probably presenting as "peevish" in response to feeling that the suffering that is occuring is somehow "less" due to not fitting into someone's belief of a category. I see many, many people on this site - more than not - who embody the freeloader/renter mentality in their legitimate marriages. In truth, there appears to be more people who in fact ended up here because taking the step of getting married did not affect that freeloader/renter mentality in the least.

That being said, I was a buyer. I believe that he was a buyer, who evolved into a renter mentality when we separated for two months last summer after 11 years.

Yes, I have been coming here on and off for three years. And yes, things were difficult during all of those three years. We struggled in the dark with many, many things beyond the state of our relationship - i.e. blending our families of four kids, living across the street from the most violent native uprising in North America shortly after relocating to an entirely new community, having a child with bipolar,etc. My best friend has been happily "married" (not) for 22 years and has four wonderful kids in their teens and shares a beautiful loving relationship with her partner. She is from Spain and he is from England, and they do not share the perspective that they are not committed to eachother because they are not legally married. She is his husband and he is her wife, and their relationship is one of the most solid I have ever known.

In retrospect, do I wish we had married years ago - given what has happened now, yes. Although in truth I don't believe it would have changed what has occurred. When a committed relationship encounters these problems, i.e. affairs, they happen regardless of marital status. Needs were not met, LBs and AOs accumulate, and the partner becomes associated more with painful experiences than joyful ones. I prescribe to Harley's philosophy - but I am feeling that I am being told by some that I should not be benefitting from trying to implement the tools he prescribes based on not being inclusive in the "marriage" category.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 03:49 PM
Chryss, Dr. Harley's article about living together versus marriage is also quite enlightening: Living Together Before Marriage
Posted By: SugarCane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
I see many, many people on this site - more than not - who embody the freeloader/renter mentality in their legitimate marriages. In truth, there appears to be more people who in fact ended up here because taking the step of getting married did not affect that freeloader/renter mentality in the least.
Dear Chryss,

I am the embodiment of your insight here. I have been legally married for 20 years now and have experienced my H's long-running affair. When I broadened my reading on this site beyond that of affair recovery, to explore Dr Harley's concepts of the "buyer" (etc), I began to see that the problems in my own marriage were related to my and my H's approaches to the state of marriage.

My very first post here was about whether my H and I were ever really buyers in our marriage, which at the time I married I thought we were. If you are interested in seeing this issue from the point of view of a married BS, and you have a high tolerance for long and rambling posts and have a cup of tea to hand, you might care to read that post. (I'm sure you know how to click on my name, go to "view posts" and go to my first one.)

If I were to summarise here what I tried to say there, it would be to say that today, in Western Europe and North America, we treat marriage more like living together, and there is a cost to doing so. Not everybody feels this way, of course, but it is very common for people like I was 20 years ago to think nothing of living together before marriage, getting married after pregnancy and even after the birth of the children and to see no difference between many marriages and many living together arrangements.

In this view, if marriage is not really any different from a "committed" living together arrangement, then what is the big deal when a marriage breaks up? It is very sad, but these things happen. We should try to continue being good parents to the children and should be civil, and if possible friendly, to each other.

Well, that was my problem as a married BS. However, you as an unmarried "BS" are being asked to consider how having NOT taken the step of marriage has affected your, and more crucially your partner's, approach to your relationship and infidelity. In many people's views, living together can be indistinguishable from marriage, as in the case of your friends. I too have friend that live as you describe. However, how can we know what living together means to each of the very different couples that we know with these arrangements?

Marriage in the West has been clearly defined as a legal (and often religious) commitment to one person for life, with financial and other obligations between those parties and to the children. We can assume that people are subscribing to that concept when they make their oath, although in seems in practice, with people divorcing after a few weeks, that many do not.

What recognised values are people subscribing to when they live together? Where are those values defined?

Originally Posted by Chryss
That being said, I was a buyer. I believe that he was a buyer, who evolved into a renter mentality when we separated for two months last summer after 11 years.
When a committed relationship encounters these problems, i.e. affairs, they happen regardless of marital status. Needs were not met, LBs and AOs accumulate, and the partner becomes associated more with painful experiences than joyful ones. I prescribe to Harley's philosophy - but I am feeling that I am being told by some that I should not be benefitting from trying to implement the tools he prescribes based on not being inclusive in the "marriage" category.

I did not see that you were being told that you should not be benefiting from MB tools because you are not married. I think the question is whether a relationship in which, by choice, a public statement of commitment has never been made can be helped by the tools designed for relationships in which this public, legal and often religious declaration has been made.

Not being married while living together is an act of will, a choice and a public declaration as much as marriage is. It is not the absence of a choice, or a choice delayed or postponed, wouldn't you agree? Might it be that this choice not to make a public and legal declaration of commitment might have had a bearing on your partner more than you realised?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 05:12 PM
While there are most certainly bad marriages - and we see them every day on this forum - that does not mean that living together is good. Living together is a month to month agreement, whereas marriage is a life time committment. Making comparisons to the lowest common denominator doesn't make living together a good bet, it just makes folks wonder why you can't make the comparison to the highest commmon denominator. And we know why.

Living together has all the dynamics of DATING, in that it is a TEST DRIVE, so it is more closely related to DATING, not marriage. In fact, Dr Harley doesn't even consider this infidelity because they are not married.

Comparing the worst marriages to the best shack up situations doesn't change that either, since the rule is not defined by the exception, but the norm. The truth is that there is a REASON that marriages after living together are much weaker than marriages than did not.

This is not a put down to point out the differences between living together and marriage, but an attempt to help others see that it usually ends up in the kind of situation Chryss is in now and to help others see the inherent problems that come from living together.

excerpt from Living Together Before Marriage

It's a tempting argument. After all, a date tends to be artificial. Each person is "up" for the occasion, and they make an effort to have a good time together. But marriage is quite different from dating. In marriage, couples are together when they're "down," too. Wouldn't it make sense for a couple to live together for a while, just to see how they react to each other's "down" times? If they discover that they can't adjust when they live together, they don't have to go through the hassle of a divorce. Besides, isn't it easier to adjust when you don't feel trapped by marriage?

The problem with those arguments is that marriage changes everything. If couples that live together think that after marriage everything will be the same, they don't understand what marriage does to a couple, both positively and negatively.

In my experience and in reports I've read, the chances of a divorce after living together are huge, much higher than for couples who have not lived together prior to marriage. If living together were a test of marital compatibility, the statistics should show opposite results -- couples living together should have stronger marriages. But they don't. They have weaker marriages.

To understand why this is the case, I suggest that you consider why couples who live together don't marry. Ask yourself that very question. Why did you choose to live with your boyfriend instead of marrying him?

The answer is that you were not ready to make that commitment to him yet.
First, you wanted to see if you still loved him after you cooked meals together, cleaned the apartment together and slept together. In other words, you wanted to see what married life would be like without the commitment of marriage.

But what you don't seem to realize is that you will never know what married life is like unless you're married. The commitment of marriage adds a dimension to your relationship that puts everything on its ear. Right now, you are testing each other to see if you are compatible. If either of you slips up, the test is over, and you are out the door. Marriage doesn't work that way. Slip-ups don't end the marriage, they just end the love you have for each other.

What, exactly, is the commitment of marriage? It is an agreement that you will take care of each other for life, regardless of life's ups and downs. You will stick it out together through thick and thin. But the commitment of living together isn't like that at all. It is simply a month-to-month rental agreement. As long as you behave yourself and keep me happy, I'll stick around.

Habits are hard to break, and couples that live together before marriage get into the habit of following their month-to-month rental agreement. In fact, they often decide to marry, not because they are willing to make a lifetime commitment to each other, but because the arrangement has worked out so well that they can't imagine breaking their lease, so to speak. They say the words of the marital agreement, but they still have the terms of their rental agreement in mind.

Couples who have not lived together before marriage, on the other hand, have not lived under the terms of the month-to-month rental agreement. They begin their relationship assuming that they are in this thing for life, and all their habits usually reflect that commitment.


Posted By: Pepperband Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 05:19 PM
the "paper" was something that held less value to us then the commitment (AKA the marriage was already dead, we were only married on paper)

in our minds, we were married (AKA in my mind I am divorced)

husband in my heart (AKA my heart decides who is my spouse, not some legal piece of paper)

just a piece of paper doesn't make us more committed (AKA we married for the wrong reasons, therefore the marriage is invalid)

Isn't it eerie how live-in relationships speak of the marriage committment in the exact same terms that waywards do?



Chryss - you may not see it right now, but your attitude about marriage is also the attitude that permitted your X-boyfriend to leave you.

Living together as if married = commitment is in the moment, and dependent on circumstances of the heart.

I am not saying you are not heartbroken - I am saying your live-in-relationship was build on a cornerstone that disregards legal marriage commitment (eerily similar to waywards in an adulterous affair)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
I hope you are not saying that I can't come here for support, because I am in dire need of it right now.

Of course you can ask for support.
Here is my 2 cents:

Separate everything from him.
Plan B like you live on Mars.
You can't be seen.
You can't be heard.
Get yourself through mourning.



Do not consider reunification with him if that means continuing to live-as-if married.

You're obviously a quality woman ... wait for the whole enchilada this time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by Chryss
I hope you are not saying that I can't come here for support, because I am in dire need of it right now.

Of course you can ask for support.
Here is my 2 cents:

Separate everything from him.
Plan B like you live on Mars.
You can't be seen.
You can't be heard.
Get yourself through mourning.



Do not consider reunification with him if that means continuing to live-as-if married.

You're obviously a quality woman ... wait for the whole enchilada this time.
'

DITTO! Raise the bar and you raise your VALUE. People value that which doesn't come for FREE.
Posted By: miriam123 Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 05:35 PM
Chryss:

Hi - I've been away from the boards for a month because I needed a break, but thought I'd try to help.

I'm now "completing" my 4th month of Plan B. In my case, it has been broken twice; the first time because I own a business that our state treats as "joint" and I needed to inform him of legal issues in order to ask for his signature on a business loan. He immediately tried to contact me (which he had not done previously). He initially left me a voicemail that was clearly shocked and sympathetic and offered to use the house equity (3/4 of which is my investment, not his) to help get a loan. When I didn't respond, he contacted my IM and made the whole agenda clear; he wanted to use the financial situation of the business to force me to follow through on the divorce. When that fell through (I backed out because the loan terms were not affordable and chose not to respond to the "quick divorce" attempt)), I didn't hear from him again (he has been adhering to my Plan B letter).

The only other contact was another formal letter written to him as a Board member/shareholder by me as CEO because I am required by law to send an annual report, and opted to hold the "shareholders" meeting by letter rather than by telecon in order to avoid any verbal contact with him. Under the law I gave him 10 days to respond to the "state of the business" letter, simply by signing it to indicate he'd received in and understood it, and to mail a copy back.

And _there's_ the difference that I owe to Plan B. The first business contact was one in which I was really hoping he'd snap out of all his fog and realize that he'd destroyed not only my life but my livelihood, would have an epiphany, would start working toward meeting the conditions of my Plan B letter. I believe (based on an email he sent to my attorney at that time) that he did realize that, and only at that moment - but then he chose to use his realization (which clearly upset him) to justify his effort to get out of the marriage quick, "reasoning" that it would be better for me and the business. Mind you, he didn't ask any questions - he just took the face value of what had been written to him so far, leapt to the conclusions he wanted to reach, and then made his "offer". It hurt terribly at the time, but it was just what I needed - another affirmation (after 2 months of ZERO contact) that he was as self-centered, obsessed, and finished with the marriage as he was before - maybe moreso.

The second time I had to contact him - just three weeks ago - I HATED IT. I tried to find a way around the law but couldn't. I even tried getting a "CEO proxy" to write and send the letter but the law is pretty darn specific. So I found a legal way just to "inform" him of what was happening and get a legal statement back that he had been informed. The letter was "just the facts" - totally impersonal. And this time I found myself hoping that he would NOT respond even with a signature and mail back. I didn't want to see his hand writing. And because a refusal to respond helps me build a legal case I can use to get him out of the business.

The difference between the first contact and the second is like night and day - for ME. It's Plan B at 2 months and at 4 months. In the middle of February I actually had 3 good days in a row - days where I didn't think about him much, didn't obsess, and wasn't crying. The following week I had another 2 good days, and the last week I had 4 good days. The last three days I've been having nightmares about him and OW every night, am exhausted and weepy as I write this - but I know that this too, will pass. I'm pressing on.

I started Plan B like you did - hoping it would bring him back - but also knowing that it was absolutely the best thing for me, and doubting it would bring him back. (My whole story is posted under miriam123/"Wavering" somewhere on the board; I'll find it and link to it if you want.) I still love my husband deeply. but I do not love him so much I want the relapsed alcoholic/dry drunk/OW-addled, irresponsible child-man back.

I can't listen to love songs without bawling (I have to turn off the music or get up and leave.) I miss my house, my dogs, my life, and the man I pledged myself to. I miss him in bed, I miss his smile, I miss his voice, I miss the smell of him. I miss our family. I miss cooking for him, I miss coming home, I miss my roses - I miss thousands of things.

But, even at 4 months it is better. I am not caught up in the craziness. My life is moving on by fits and starts. I am beginning to think about the future without him, little by little. I am re-discovering things I used to do before we were married and finding I still enjoy some of them. I've lost weight (a side effect of the betrayal and stress) but am now building on the weight loss to lose more. I feel better physically and emotionally as a result. I still have a great relationship with my stepkids. I am beginning to make plans to travel to see my granddaughter.

It's hard. The pain is enormous and multifaceted and feels like it will never end. I know. But all I can say is that Plan B really, really, really is NOT about getting him back. If that happens - and you still want him - great. But what it is really, really, really about is getting YOU back...and you have to go through it for a while before you even begin to understand what that means. It took me almost 3 months for my head to clear.

Find ways to be good to yourself. Reach out to friends, and if you've lost track, go find old ones and make some new ones. Exercise - a good 30 minutes will kick up endorphins. GET OFF the sleeping pills/anti-anxiety meds (they depress you further) and go to your physician for anti-depressants - figure you'll be on them for a minimum of 6 months - they'll help stablize your entire system and will help you regulate sleep again. I like the other things you said you were doing - the spa, etc. - just keep it up. Have faith that the human mind and heart will begin to heal (despite ourselves, sometimes!) over time.

Sorry this is so long.

I'm pulling for you.

- M
Posted By: miriam123 Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 05:40 PM
Chryss -

Also - what Pep said. kiss
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 06:06 PM
Thank you to everyone who took such time to write. I see in many ways that what you say is right. For example, in many past situations, maybe if we had married and DID have the buyer mentality, we would have pushed that much harder to find ways through the maze. Maybe being married would have inherently made us buyers - as we had both lost so much during the end of our first marriages. I don't know. You are probably right. On the other hand, I believe in commitment,and I believed in it in my first marriage. And when the situation became intolerable, I did NOT leave for a long time, when I really should have. My commitment to the marriage kept me in a very bad, very unhealthy place for years. I felt trapped by my ethics, trapped by the vows I took - that regardless of his illness and abuse he heaped on our family due to it - that I was obligated to work it out no matter what. I could NOT leave. I would NOT break up our family and end the marriage.

I can see now that the past had a huge influence on my current relationship. I was committed - but knowing my own values, I knew that if it went badly - I would stay because of the vow. Obviously right this moment I am realizing I have very weak boundaries.....

You have all provided a whole new dimension to my perspective that I didn't fully entertain until now. I'm going to think about this alot and will past later.


Posted By: Pepperband Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
I'm going to think about this alot and will past later.

Good for you!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
On the other hand, I believe in commitment,and I believed in it in my first marriage. And when the situation became intolerable, I did NOT leave for a long time, when I really should have. My commitment to the marriage kept me in a very bad, very unhealthy place for years. I felt trapped by my ethics, trapped by the vows I took - that regardless of his illness and abuse he heaped on our family due to it -

Aren't you doing the exact same thing here, though?

Can I make a suggestion? Instead of looking for the lowest common denominator to make you feel better about your situation, why not accept your situation for what it really IS: BAD , and look for solutions?

We can always find situations worse than ours, but it doesn't make our bad situation good. And it doesn't solve the problem at hand.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 06:28 PM
Chryss -

FYI

When I was much younger, I was in a "committed" unmarried relationship for 14 years - it was a train wreck in slow motion ... but I could not see it coming because I was a passenger on the train- he broke my heart and nearly ruined me for marriage

but I showed him - I live well - I love well - and I made a much happier life without his uncertainly and his reeling me back with half-assed promises of "commitment in out heart"

I have been married to my H 28 years coming this May - loveheart
Posted By: Cymanca Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 07:47 PM
Quote
You have all provided a whole new dimension to my perspective that I didn't fully entertain until now

I see that you have been praying for your wandering partner to have an epiphany.....looks like the correct person had one instead.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 09:01 PM
Can I make a suggestion? Instead of looking for the lowest common denominator to make you feel better about your situation, why not accept your situation for what it really IS: BAD , and look for solutions?

Melody - I've been unfair to you and for that I apologize. You tell it like it is, and pull no punches. People tell me I am like that - now I see what they mean.

If I could ask - could you please elaborate on what you said above - about looking for the lowest common denominator, and looking for solutions. Regardless of the situation being good or bad (and I agree it is bad, no two ways around it), I still feel like half my soul has been torn away. I don't even know who I am that I would entertain even considering forgiving him. And yet, here I am. Thus, Plan B is my effort to save myself.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 09:13 PM
Miriam
Thank you for sharing your situation with me. It is very inspiring to hear you speak of the incremental improvements you are having over the past few months. And the good days and bad days - how true that is. I felt pretty good on Wednesday - I was ANGRY at him (which I think is what I legitimately should be feeling) and it was empowering - for about half a day. Then on the drive home, I was a pitiful mess again. I know what you mean about songs, and about triggers that set you off. I bought the house from him, and he bought a new one. I have no presence in his house, while everywhere I look - everywhere - he is there. Every stone we laid on our patio, every room we painted, every picture we hung, every tile we laid in the kitchen, every board of the hardwood we installed, every perennial we planted in the gardens. The tulips are starting to break through the ground and we both so carefully picked out the colours and mapped out how they would look this spring. We did it together, and now it still feels like ours - not mine. Like I've been living a lie. Yuck.

As hard as it is to have no contact (and we haven't now since early in the week) there is some peace in having only myself to deal with - no drama, no looking for answers, no wondering "is he with her tonight", doubting every single slimey lie he says. When your face is pressed up close to a mirror, you cannot see your face. I'm just waiting for some time, and distance, to step back and see my face again clearly. I can't believe I've managed to function at work through all this. There's a lot to be said for compartmentalizing things - I've told no one there that this is going on. Therefore, I am strong there and no one knows any different.

I am beginning to truly see that by not marrying, perhaps we both ignored the fact that we built this life on quicksand. We built a very large castle, complete with turrets and beautiful flowing gardens, but still - on quicksand. I guess I'll never know if it would have made this ending any different.


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Chryss
If I could ask - could you please elaborate on what you said above - about looking for the lowest common denominator, and looking for solutions.

Chryss hug

What I mean by that is you are COMPARING your situation to others, ie: bad marriages, etc. My point is that it is what it is and you have to deal with what you HAVE, no matter how it compares to anything else. That is a diversion that distracts from solutions, IMO.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/01/09 09:30 PM
Hi Melody
Yes, I see what you are saying. I suppose it was a diversion that I intentionally or unintentionally used to divert the pain away - as I really felt I could not cope with anymore pain and still continue to go out into the world everyday and make a living.

Yes, it is what it is. It is not good. I am managing my emotions thoroughly from fear, not a good place to make decisions. Ok, so digging deeper into Chryss' psyche, why do I want that life back????????? I'm on the couch Dr. Melody smile
Posted By: SugarCane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 12:16 AM
Chryss,

I have just read all your other posts, and it seems very clear to me that you avoided telling people here that you were not married until directly questioned yesterday. You once, in an early post, made a slip and referred to your "partner", and when questioned about whom you meant; was this someone in between your two husbands? You said, no you meant your current husband. You continually referred to your being married and even told of his sending flowers on your "anniversary" last year.

I don't think this was just your way of seeing your relationship; I think you were deliberately creating a false impression because you knew that posters would point out the fundamental difference between marriage and living together. I think that you have spent three years here (on and off) getting unhelpful advice because you did not describe the truth of your situation.

Your partner's treatment of your son (and you) when you first came here must be understood in the light of the knowledge that he never made a public commitment to you or your children. His "affair" must be seen in this context also.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 12:47 AM
Wow. Talking about seeing things through your own filter, and attributing negative motivations to other people. I am so glad you have "figured" me out for the lying manipulative person that I am. Depending on the level of your education, I would venture to guess that you've never heard of "Groupthink"????
Look it up.





Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 12:49 AM
I'll thank you all for the help you've provided to date, and I won't be back. I didn't sign up here to be slaughtered by a nameless, faceless, extremely judgemental person.

Keep your little club private folks.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 12:54 AM
We don't take well to people who lie. If you want to be honest we will be more than happy to help you.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 12:56 AM
You're welcome

PS - I don't post marriage advice to people who are not married.
I'm just weird that way.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Chryss
I'll thank you all for the help you've provided to date, and I won't be back. I didn't sign up here to be slaughtered by a nameless, faceless, extremely judgemental person.

Keep your little club private folks.
Nameless and faceless we all are, Chryss, but I have no desire to slaughter you.

What you seem to see as my "judgemental" approach is nothing of the kind. I was trying to suggest that if you had said that you were not married when you first came here, the advice given to you would have been different. It would not have been "go away; this is a private club and we don't want unmarrieds"; rather, it might have explained your partner's treatment of you from his standpoint as an avowed renter or freeloader. You might have been advised to base your approach on an understanding of your partner's lack of commitment to you and the children. You might then not have spent three years in a deteriorating situation. You might have been able to change that situation.

Please think about continuing to post here, because there is much help available to you. However, it will only be useful if given on the basis of your real situation, not an imaginary or wished-for one.
Posted By: Chryss Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 02:32 AM
Sugarcane

I guess I am like a bee drawn to honey - I just had to come see what was buzzing.....

Below as taken from Harley's columns:

"One study that you may find interesting was done by Bennett, Blan, and Bloom (American Sociological Review, 1988, Vol 53: 127-138) entitled, "Commitment and the Modern Union: Assessing the Link Between Premarital Cohabitation and Subsequent Marital Stability."

The point made by the authors is that, overall, the risk of divorce after living together is 80% higher than the risk of divorce after not living together, which is already too high. In other words, those who live together before marriage are almost twice as likely to divorce than those who did not live together. But they also point out that the risk of divorce is even higher if you don't live together more than three years prior to marriage. The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together."

I only bring this forth in the light that we have been in a common-law marriage for 12 years. We have faced several circumstances that challenged our commitment. Unfortunately, the final couple of years, the challenges were overwhelming, and I would venture many others would have found them so as well.

I appreciate your thoughts on how advice offered would have differed. I did not intentionally lie or mislead, and resent that someone commented I did. My integrity is something that I try very hard to maintain. In almost 12 years of building a life, purchasing homes, raising children, nursing through surgeries and parental illnesses, supporting careers and and being strong when the other is weak, I came here feeling the pain and loss of MY marriage.

To Melody's earlier posts, I was becoming aware that perhaps the mentality did exist still after all these years. And appreciate that she gave me that to consider, and I will gain further knowledge. But I do not feel at all comfortable that this forum is a "safe" place to come when I am vulnerable as I am right now. I won't be back.

Posted By: doingfine Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 10:41 AM
its a shame that rudeness once again has run someone off! Rudeness on this site has tried to run me off, but because there are the ones that stick around to help us newbies and are straight forward WITHOUT being rude makes me stay to enjoy their knowledge and straight forwardness. There was a better way.
Melodylane, I enjoy your posts, you hit it right, you are amazing with your insight, expertise and your aim with your golden 2x4, thank you once again, and this memeber was realizing that to, seeing what the real dilemma was, but now won't enjoy your posts or any others that have the ways and means of explaining without the attacking and maliciousness that some feel so compelled to bring to this site.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 02:11 PM
Thanks for your kind words, doingfine.
Posted By: doingfine Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 03:30 PM
your welcome M! your awesome, so glad your here!
Posted By: believer Re: False Recovery -Plan B - Coping... - 03/02/09 03:50 PM
"What you seem to see as my "judgemental" approach is nothing of the kind. I was trying to suggest that if you had said that you were not married when you first came here, the advice given to you would have been different."

I agree with this advice. Hope you will order the book "The One" (Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders), so from now on you can learn to be a BUYER.
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