I was reading a post on another site by a guy struggling with not telling his kids. He seemed to feel that the consensus among therapists or 'experts" is that the kids should not be told.
So, what other folks that practice in this field agree with Harley I was under the impression that a fair number agreed with his position.
I've seen the exchange that Mel posted by Dr Laura Schlesinger on this issue. Not to be too disrespectful, but Laura is sort of like Dr Phil. IMO. a self promoting know it all/narcissist, whose legitimacy is called into question by the fact that she is willing to give specific advice over the airwaves for profit.
So, who else is in agreement with Harley? How about Dodson, Glass, Pittman, Abram- Spring, Lunderman(sp?), Peggy vaughn , etc? Where do these folks stand, if anyone knows.

I don't know. I don't really care either, since I figure it's sort of like the majority of "marriage counselors" who don't know how to save marriages; who have an 84% failure rate. Yet they call themselves "experts" despite the fact they can't save marriages. Dr Harley stands out from that crowd too, in that he actually knows how to save marriages.

The concensus amongst the traditional marriage counseling crowd - the ones who can't save marriages - is also against exposure and nonchalant about observing no contact with the affair partner. Yet we see how effective exposure is and how crucial no contact is.

I think the issue of telling children is no different. With absolutely no evidence that telling children the truth harms them, some "counselors" advise not telling them. And why? Who knows.

p.s. I don't agree with Dr Laura on every issue but her views on this are tightly reasoned and deserving of respect, IMO. What counts is the merit of the idea, after all, not a concensus. There is a "concensus" that exposure is bad and no contact is not necessary; doesn't mean that is wise.

" whose legitimacy is called into question by the fact that she is willing to give specific advice over the airwaves for profit."

What counselor gives advice for free?

What are they in business for their health?

Same for any person.

People work for income. So by you definition everyone must be bad at their jobs in this country because every one wants to get paid for their knowledge.

Dr Harley and his wife, Joyce, used to do the exact same thing. Have you listened to their radio clips on this forum? Marriage Builders Radio

I would not have told my DS if I in any way thought it would harm him...even if Dr Harley suggested it. I weighed the pros and cons myself and thought what Dr Harley said about exposure to the children made sense to me...

I 100% believe that any hurt that my DS has is about the A and his father leaving NOT me telling him the truth. If I didnt tell my DS the truth I have no doubt that my WH, OW and DS would be spending time together and my DS would be more screwed up by that.

To me it is old fashioned to sweep stuff under the rug, that was the problem with my WH, I was in a deep depression and never having to face any problems in his life before, he had no idea what to do...so he pretended it wasnt happening and found someone else...to me it has been proven that this method is harmful...

I may be wrong but I believe that children deserve the truth, age appropriately of course. MY WH cheating on me was his way of avoiding the truth, so he thought he would just cheat and I would never find out. Well when I found out the truth, It was much more damaging then if he just faced our family problems head on.

My WH told my DS that he wasnt happy anymore so he left...was that good...so would my DS think that if he wasnt happy with him that he would find a new son.

The truth can be very painful but lies can be much more painful, especially the longer they are kept from someone, even children...JMHO

Don't get me wrong, I am in complete agreement with Harley's position on exposing far and wide, including the kids.
But, this guy on another website felt that this was a minority position.
So, other than experts like myself and Harley, anyone else of renown taking this position?

Dang, I inserted my reply into someone's post, again, making it look like part of her post. Sorry.

I don't know because I never checked into it. To me, that has no relevance on the merit of the idea. An idea's value is based on its own merit, not on whether there is a concensus.

ME

Well, there you have it. Three of the brightest bulbs on the planet, aligned.

This from Peggy Vaughn: Full Article here.

Divorce360 sends mixed messages. Some of their writers advocate telling the kids others only in cases where they will find out some other way. Most of the articles point to holding off until you figure out whether or not you are going to separate or divorce.

My take is that since most people want to keep their affairs secret so they don't have to deal with the consequences of cheating, they feel that the kids don;t have to know what is going on. In cases of impending divorce almost all counselors recommend telling the kids at least in a benign way since their world is about to change forever.

The problem of course is that depending on the age of the children, they already know something is up and little minds when Mommy and Daddy are alternating between hushed whispers and loud verbal exchanges, often calling each other vile names, tend to fill in the blanks from their own imaginations.

A 4 year old can decide that Mommy and Daddy are mad because he did something horribly wrong. A 10 year old might think that Daddy having a new girlfriend means that she is no longer his special little girl. A 16 year old might become disgusted at the whole notion of a caring committed relationship even being possible and a college student might question if their whole life was just a lie.

So I think kids need to be told the truth, with the one condition that the truth be age appropriate. If the BS is telling the kids then every effort must be made to avoid berating the WS and making the whole thing into the BS building a support group out of the kids.

The other "experts" are mixed with some saying tell them as soon as the confrontation takes place, others saying tell them once you know you are not going to reconcile or even making the whole thing remain hidden from view until someone else brings it up.

Of course knowing if you are going to reconcile is sometimes not really known for more than a year and if Daddy is moved out and living with a girl half his age, the kids are going to wonder why they have to go visit him every other weekend when they and Mom still live in the nice home they always enjoyed.

And if someone else mentions that Mom is a cheating sl*t or calls her a wh*re, even a 4 year old is going to have questions.

The single biggest reason to tell the kids the truth IME is to teach them what is right and wrong with the whole situation. How do you deal with adultery and even attempt to save the marriage if you are pretending it doesn't exist. If the marriage is saved, they will always wonder what was going on and if the marriage ends they are going to find out sooner or later. Might as well be sooner IMO.

Mark

ROTFLMAO

Well, I pointed that guy on the other website to Harely's site.
I was surprised by the contrast between the posts over there, basically accepting the premise tha virtually everone agrees that the kid don't find out, and those on this site.
I mean, here is this poor guy not only being destroyed by the affair, but feeling guilty that two of his four kids, the older ones, have figured out that his wife is cheating. Bet his wife does not give a rat's [censored], except to the extent she gets some negative consequences from the kids.
Do waywards love their kids?

I often wonder to if waywards love their kids...all I know is that my WH left my home with my son literally attached to his leg crying and begging him not to leave...it makes me physically ill thinking of it...I could never leave my DS like that, I would do ANYTHING for him...

All I could think is that he hated me so much that he would even leave his son so he didnt have to be with me...

Z,

I don't know about any of the "reknown" that you mention, BUT I will tell that my DD's therapist about ripped me a new one for NOT being truthful ( and essentially exposing) about H's affair. She had over-heard the screaming match on Dday and "sorta" knew what was going on. Her dad and shamefully I then gaslighted her for a month.

When I told her counselor what WAS going on, she repermanded me something fierce for not being honest and CONTRIBUTING to her turmoil of the sitch......something I then corrected immmediately.

DD had been going to this counselor off and on for 3 yes. because of SA......

So while she may not be "well- reknown", she is very reputable in counseling community.....

And I agree with what Mel is saying.....who needs a consencous to KNOW what the right thing to do is??......

Not2fun

I hope you can get him over here.

My wayward father took me to meet his OW at a hotel when I was 4. AGE 4. Can you even imagine?

What nonsense...... Kids DO in fact find out. Sooner or later, one way or another they find out and SOMEONE needs to be there to stear them on the right path.....otherewise, they grow up thinking affairs are okay and normal........

Good job on pointing him here.....

Not2fun

not all WS are the same...yes I loved my kids
I loved my H

I hated, hated, hated myself...what I did was about me, not them or my H...my actions hurt my H, they hurt my kids - but saddly it wasnt about them...thats what being wayward is - so focused on yourself and your issues, your wants, your needs...often a BS cant see that the A is more about the waywards seriously messed up mind...

so yes a Wayward can love their kids - some are so selfish and self centered that they believe their lies to themselves that it wont hurt the kids...some - once they see the truth change...others i guess are still to selfish to care.

Yeah, I think my XWW loves the kids. But, she loves herself more, I think.

I think many waywards do love their children, but when their selfish interest collides with the child's best interest, selfish interest wins out every time.

And that even extends to USING the child to further their selfish interest. How many times have we seen a WS who introduced the child to his affair in order to give it a false air of respectibility?

My own father cared more about being my "friend" than being my father in order to feel good about his wrongdoing.

Yeah, my insane XWW , brought this guy(whose [censored] i am still contemplating kicking), right into our daughters lives.
As soon as she moved out, this guy was snaeking into their house every night after the kids went to sleepand sneaking out in the morning before they arose.
Their 'loving" mother began barricading her bedroom door at night, preventing the kids form entering in the event of a bad dream or sickness, so as to keep this guy a secret. She actually told our kids that she was doing this "in case burglars came into the house".
So, while I am sure she feels affection toward our kids, perhaps there is a distinction to be drawn between love and fondness.
Maybe I'll head over tongiht and kick this guy's butt. How am I fixed for bond $$?
I know my dad loved us kids. Never stopped him from driving around from Tavern to Tavern with us kids in the car, puking his guts out the driver's door, drivig with one hand and his head hanging down by the street( we did get free popcorn and beer nuts, though, and every bartender in town would give me free cokes if istopped in).

OMG, ML...No I absolutely cannot imagine that. That is horrendous.

You know, some guys just don't desrve kids.

I definitely love my kids. I never even stopped loving my H, not even during my A. I think waywards can love their kids. Of course, every wayward is different. Any man who could walk out on his family with a kid clinging to his leg crying certainly seems heartless and incapable of real love. I couldn't even imagine doing something like that.

I think the selfishness often causes waywards to do things that are not in the best interest of their children, that's for sure. When I was involved in my A, I was not putting the needs of my kids first. It doesn't mean I didn't love them, but I certainly wasn't taking into consideration how my actions could affect them. I didn't introduce them to my AP or involve them directly in my A in any way, but that doesn't mean my actions didn't affect them.

For me, it was the realization of what my actions could mean to my children that ultimately made me end my A, to a large extent at least. In my case, the OM started talking about moving to where I lived (he lived 3000 miles away) so we could get married and he could be a father to my kids. He basically wanted me to move my H out of my house and move him in. Nice and neat. It scared the crap out of me and finally made me wake up and take a good long look at what I was doing. I couldn't even imagine putting my kids or my H or anyone in my family through something like that.

Yes, this is what mystifies me about my XWw, as well. I mean, I can see , she obviously cares for her kids. But , going this far, seems incomprehensible. IS this degeneration into abject self interest gradual, or aomething that has always been within, but remained dorman.
People are very complex.

Not really. I think those in a wayward mindset don't think much of the future effects of their actions. For example, in your XWW's mind, she probably thought she was showing a great deal of care for the kids by keeing her activities with the OM hidden from them. She wasn't considering the likely future effect of her actions.

My FWW did allow our kids to interact with the OM at least once, but it was NEVER with the suggestion that he was some sort of special person to her.

Im still gonna go with the "abducted by aliens" theory.

My ex moved POSOM into the house the minute she filed a protection order to get me out of the house.

My H ended up telling my kids, which was a very good thing. My DD had already imagined something terrible, and she was afraid it was her fault. My DS never really seemed to notice anything, but he's not a big talker, so we could never know for sure. DD and I have generally discussed it a couple of times - she's 13 now so she definitely gets it. DS and I haven't talked about it. He is 11 now, so I know he knows the "facts of life." I don't know if he has really connected the dots yet.

I can't think of any reason kids shouldn't know. They sense way more than we give them credit for, and do we really want them drawing their own "It's my fault" conclusions? I think it sends the message that covering something up is fine. Not something I want my kids to learn. And if my DD goes through some kind of rebellion and throws it in my face, then the fault is mine. If I had never cheated in the first place it wouldn't be a problem.

I have a hard time accepting that WS's love their kids when they can do so much damage to them and much of it openly. Sure, they may hide their AP and activities from them, but even the risk of the affair itself on ripping the kids' family and home apart is akin to holding a baby out a 17-story window. If they do love their kids, it is not true parental love. It is a selfish love - as in, any gesture the make towards their kids is really a pat on their own back for being so wonderful and loving. It is not for the benefit of the kids.

I agree....Esp. when it is a LTA and the WS leaves the family for OP. I dont think that these people even know how to love another person, even their own children...They only love themselves, truly...

I guess I agree that it must be a different type of love than one typically thinks of. Same with the assertion that a Ws never stopped loving the BS.
I think if we look at this realistically, it is hard to reconcile the actions with the profession of love. I mean, as Harely points out, it is abuse. Does a guy that beats his wife really love her? Does a woman that beats her husband really love her kids? Hard for me to accept.

I always thought that the love a mother has for her child was unsurpassed, even by a fathers love...but it has been proven here time and time again that there are mothers who do this to there children and fathers who would never dream of hurting them.

My guess is that these people may be missing something inside of them that doesnt allow them to truly love anyone...I mean how could they leave there family so distraught and many of them never look back...

I would do ANYTHING for that little boy of mine and I see many on here that would do the same and have...That is what is missing..putting their childs needs over their own selfish, childish needs.

And I really am not referring to the waywards who go back to their family and realize they made a huge mistake and are willing to do what they can to heal their family...I consider that to be different, everyone makes mistakes, its what you do after that counts....IT IS WHAT YOU DO AFTER THAT COUNTS!

Leaving a spouse or family that loves you and would do anything to try and save the family, for OP, is just incomprehensible to me...

I still think that one day someone is going to discover a virus that causes people to be wayward, or something similar. And certainly, some people are born "missing" whatever this is. When you really think of it, you wouldn't treat an acquaintance or even a total stranger who you care nothing about in the manner that a wayward treats their spouse and children. Common courtesy would prevent it.

I agree, Tabby...I mean they say that serial killers have damaged frontal lobes, neglect or abuse in childhood. It is like a formula to make a serial killer.....I am sure that there is a formula for waywards that leave their family, and I am pretty sure it has to do with BRAIN DAMAGE....

And the worst part is that they do treat their family worse than a total stranger and they STILL dont see that they did...My WH thinks the way he treated me and DS is perfectly acceptable.




PS I am not saying that waywards are like serial killers or anthing like that..

Thank you for making that distinction. I don't see how anyone could abandon their family for good either. It was the thought of losing my family that finally snapped me out of my A.

I have a friend who abandoned her H and 3 kids for a man she met over the internet. She just picked up and ran off to Texas to meet him. She ended up in a very abusive relationship. In the meantime, her ex-H met someone else, remarried, and moved away with the kids. By the time my friend figured out she had made a huge mistake, she could no longer locate her ex-H or her children. She has since left the abusive relationship and remarried, but she hasn't seen her children in many years. She had her tubes tied after the birth of her last child, so she can't have more children. I only see her every once in awhile now, but the whole thing makes me unbelievably sad every time I think about it. I know she has suffered and that she regrets the things she did to her family. But her mistakes can't be undone. She lost the opportunity to watch her children grow up because of her selfish actions. That's something she is going to have to live with for the rest of her life. I don't know how her children are doing. Her oldest would be 17 now.

It just makes no sense to me how a mother or a father could simply walk away from their family like that and never even think about the consequences.

I struggle with this as well. When my WH packed up a month ago, he told me he thought if he left his family, he could see her again?????? What kind of person would leave his own children for a relationship 2000 miles away? Makes no sense to me at all, as I would never do anything that harmful to my kids. It is probably harder for me to get past than the affair itself. I may never be able to get past it... So selfish and self absorbed!

BTW - I am so glad I told my kids. They are older and figured some things out anyway. It makes my WH more accountable for what he has done and continues to do. And for me I know that they will not have anything to do with OW if it should get to that point. At least for a good long time) This makes WH live with the decision he made or will make. If his A and fantasy are more important than his own kids, then I hope he is happy. It also prevents my WH from filling them with lies, like my father did to me.

My WXH actually bragged to his family about what a wonderful ex-husband he was because he didn't destroy me financially! At the same time he was doing this, he was having my mail redirected so I wouldn't receive my bills in time to pay them. He was also breaking into my house and stealing stuff. How can you fault such a wonderful exH as this???

IDK, Tabby, I guess we will never understand...

In the case of a WW, most of the time, it seems, they do not have to walk away from the kids. They have a huge leg up for custody. Stiil , I question if they love truly love their kids since their actions hurt the kids and interfere with the kids ability to have the dad as present in their lives. I'm talking about good dads and husbands.
In divorce, regardless of infidelity, I realize this happens, too. But, co-parenting would seem to be easier in a divorce where one spouse was not so hurt by having been cheated on.

Exactly, Zelmo...I love when my WH said "why cant we just be friends, Why cant you just act like a grown up and think of DS and what is best for him." OMG, yeah, he said that to me....

I said "Maybe if you didnt cheat and lie to me and instead tried to work on the marriage...We could have been friends if it didnt work out."

His response "What is the difference?"

Though many WW end up with their kids, they are still cruel to them. My WXH's OW has custody of her DD-now 8 but 6 at the time WXH and OW moved in together. Her treatment of this little girl is beyond appauling and it's shocking that OWH has not yet been able to regain custody. In addition to ripping this little girl from her home, she brought her to live with another man (my WXH) who proceeded to prance around their apartment nude prompting child services to investigate. Of course they denied it (child must be lying).

Then OW attempted to set up OWH to feed DD food that they had just discovered she was allergic to in an attempt to make OWH look like an incompetent parent. That's right - she willfully put her child's life at risk for the sole purpose of hurting her BS. If that's not enough, she also set up her OWH to not pick DD up on his night and then left town so DD would be abandoned at school and it would appear that OWH was the neglectful parent. Fortunately I discovered this plot and tipped off OWH in time.

To top it off, OW being angry that OWH didn't have the decency to drop dead of his own accord ran him over with her truck - with DD inside the truck witnessing the whole thing!!! Yes, this is a parent with her child's best interest at heart. And the courts are so slow and stupid around here NOTHING has been done so far.

Karma could roll around shortly and interestingly enough, OW will be driving the bus herself. She is suing OWH again to try to have him cut off from DD completely claiming that the assault charges laid after she ran him over with the truck were frivilous. The charges werre laid by police, not OWH. What the court previously viewed as malicious mudslinging is now turning into brutal reality.

No - WW's don't have to walk away from their kids to be cruel at all. Being wayward alone is enough to do that.

Still, this is the problem with some Waywards and people that have not been on the receiving end of this. I'm not exactly sure why it is, but, folks that have not gone through it seem to have no true appreciation for the extent of the trauma, the pain, the humiliation, the nightmars, the weight loss etc.
Just look at movies, Soaps and TV. Infidelity is almost a joke. It is as if the WS merely forgot to pick up milk from the grocery store on the way home.
And, if you try to explain what it has been like for you, you get the "pity party" or "lack of maturity" deal thrown in your face.
Just as they do when they justify their affairs and place the blame on the BS, unremorseful WSs are really adept at making the post affair wreckage the BS's fault, as well. It is really frustrating and hard to deal with.

Yeah, most people treat it as just another fact of life, that just happens...divorce him and move on...well that may have made more sense when we were dating...he was my family, we have a beautiful DS...I deserved better treatment. And it hurts like he77.

And unlike when you are dating someone, you cant just move on and never see them again...Divorce, children and in laws that have been your family for years, make this impossible. I dont understand why people cannot see this....

Because most people, including me before this happend, are oblivious to things that do nat affect them.
I got this when I was raising my autistic, mentally challenged(who knows what is poltically correct these days) son. Few people could see how hard it was and they could not understand the sheer exhaustion.
It's life. People just do not get it and you cannot make them get it.

Yeah, Zelmo, I guess you are right..Human nature...My friend has a son that is autistic, I am there a lot because my son plays with the daughter. It is very challenging for my friend, but what a sweet child.

I am sorry you are going thru all this with the extra challenge of your son...You sound like an awesome father, what a lucky little boy. I was exhausted with just my DS when all this affair stuff was goin on, now a little less so.... I admire your strength.

The main "benefit" I got from my XWW's affair was it gave me the opportunity to really bond with my boys. I bet I changed 99% of the diapers, prepared almost all meals . Out of curiosity, I looked at their medical record, which always reflect which parent accompanied them to their doctor visits. It was absurdly lopsided.
If one of my boys got hurt or was sad, they came to me, not her. And, remarkably, this made her resent me.

Hey Zelmo, have a look at your kids' agenda books from school and see which parent signed off the most. That has got to be one of the most telling documents in existance these days.

Yup, and you can walk away with integrity, clear conscience and your boys respect and love. You cant ask for much better than that, Zelmo....

I doubt my first wife could find her way to their school.

Zelmo (and others):

My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.

My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.

And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.

At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.

The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

There you go Z, out of the mouth ( or fingers.... :D) of the professional!!!

Not2fun

Dr Harley, there are so many topics on which you could give clear answers and guidance! We need your help much more often!

Nice. I am going to print this off and give it to my XWW's parents. They have been very supportive of me throughout this. But, I suspect they still question the wisdom of my having blabbed to my kids.
And, when I say "blabbed" I don't mean I added any editorial commnets on their mom's character(or lack thereof). I simply did the old Joe Friday deal; "Just the facts, mam."

Thank you, Dr Harley!

Thanks, Dr. Harley - beautifully put!

Bump