I think my XWW was way more negligent of my needs than I was of hers.
Reading some of the stories here, it seems that it is only the BS that was not meeting needs,hence the WS cheated. But, I just do not beleive that someone who resorts to cheating and ot communciating his or her unhappiness is likely to have been the poster child for meeting his or her partner's needs, as well.
I mean to hear some of these stories, you'd think that all BSs are insensitive, emotionally stunted people with no desire for intimacy. I think that is a load of bs.
Couldn't agree with you more. My EN's were not being met at all. My WH was not affectionate in the least.
Our M was in a state where we were like roommates who shared a bed. He had his separate life and I had mine. We never spent any of our free time together. During his wayward period, I was studying for the CPA exam (which consumed every second of my free time), so I 'thought' he was being considerate when he'd offer to go away for the weekends to "give me the house to myself" so I could study...
little did I know.
I am not saying I met all of his EN's, but he came no where NEAR close to meeting mine. I wasn't happy either. But the thought of cheating never once crossed my mind. I just figured we were having one of the "for worse" times in our marriage.
I agree Zelmo. I think when a marriage breaks down, BOTH parties were not getting ENs met. Why the BS continues to uphold the marriage vows and the WS chooses to cheat---is probably due to some morals or personality flaw in the WS.
I was just as unhappy, if not worse, when my H had his EA. I had envisioned packing up and leaving as early as year 3 of my marriage. And again almost every year after that. But I didn't. And I wasn't the one who cheated and offered the "but I thought we were over" excuse either.
Yeah, I'm angry about it. Still.....3 years later. It sucks.
I agree as well. I was not the best young husband, but I did NOTHING to deserve her having even one A, let alone five.
We both didn't communicate well. She never communicated to me about her feelings. If she did all I heard was nagging. She could've communicated better to me, and I could've listened better...ie: We both lacked in that department.
Listening to my wife, one would think I was a horrible person. When I really think back and actually recall on my own, I wasn't any better or worse than her...she just chose to screw other guys for healing from her problem, I just smoked a doobie with my friends...(not female friends).
Having your needs met is necessary for a happy marriage, but unless you marry a retarded 12 year old, needs being met and infidelity are completely unrelated.
I agree as well, i think my ENs had not been met for a long time. And I am the same as Zelmo in that my H's negligence of my ENs was far far far far far worse than my negligence in meeting his.
So I guess I married a retarded 12 year old. Yeah, I can't argue with that...
it was all about HIS navel anyway...and continues to be so to this day.
Having your needs met is necessary for a happy marriage, but unless you marry a retarded 12 year old, needs being met and infidelity are completely unrelated.
Well, if you are talking mental age, maybe there was a direct relationship in my XWW's case,then.
Seriously, my kids have overtaken her in intellectual and emotional development and they are in elementary school. Thank God for my side of the genetic contribution
.
Your WH would've cheated in a good marriage, too. It may have taken him a little longer, but he would've.
I believe this to be true of nearly all WSs. They were all GOING to cheat at some point in their lives, no matter who they marry.
Your WH would've cheated in a good marriage, too. It may have taken him a little longer, but he would've.
I believe this to be true of nearly all WSs. They were all GOING to cheat at some point in their lives, no matter who they marry.
You know, I know this may not be PC, or whatever, but I think there is a lot of truth to this.
It has been my perception , based on what I have read for a long time, that there is something fundamentally different about the character of a WS. I know none of us is perfect, but there are just lines that some folks cross that others do not, under any circumstances.
Your WH would've cheated in a good marriage, too. It may have taken him a little longer, but he would've.
I believe this to be true of nearly all WSs. They were all GOING to cheat at some point in their lives, no matter who they marry.
You know, I know this may not be PC, or whatever, but I think there is a lot of truth to this.
It has been my perception , based on what I have read for a long time, that there is something fundamentally different about the character of a WS. I know none of us is perfect, but there are just lines that some folks cross that others do not, under any circumstances.
There's no doubt about it. WSs are flawed long before they get married. A few actually fix themselves at some point, but most don't...and don't even
want to.
Truth be told, to this day I still have difficulty identifying what my EN are. My WW was very affectionate, yet I grew distant from her for other reasons. I know that one was the disagreement we had over her kids. She disapproved of my getting involved in her "parenting" (I now see that she was a very poor parent) and that drove a big wedge between us.
But I think our conversations began to dwindle. She also began to live her role as substance abuse counselor (note of caution: recovering people need to take extra care their work does not "become" their recovery!). She loved the role, and I supported (read: paid for all expenses so she could continue her studies) her completely.
I know Dr. H's list of EN:
- Affection
- Sexual Fulfillment
- Conversation
- Recreational Companionship
- Honesty and Openness
- Physical Attractiveness
- Financial Support
- Domestic Support
- Family Commitment
- Admiration
but I don't know which of these are my top five. It seems that if I identify one, I find a way to shrug it off and say it's really no big deal.
Yet I said above that conversation dwindled. I know I always felt a glow when she admired me. Honesty and openness, I guess (the betrayal of the A cut me to the quick), companionship (recreational or not; she started running and in that we shared an interest, but I just enjoyed having a companion), and physical attractiveness, I guess.
So, looking over what I've written, I guess there were plenty of EN that weren't being met after a while. Affection and SF were there, but maybe they weren't on my top five as they were on hers.
Couldn't agree more...I have said before that if anyone had a right to have an affair, it was me!! I would have never done this because noone ever has the "right" to have an affair. I bent over backwards to help my wife take care of our kids, do stuff around the house, allow her to go to school...basically anything to make her happy.
She was never affectionate or loving towards me, never initiated sex. Then she goes off and screws another guy, lies about it and continues to do so. What a slap in the face!!
H was half [censored] meeting my ENs. Honestly, he was wayward and in self entitled mode long before Tramp-o-lean showed up but I still never thought he'd actually have a full blown A.
I sort of figured that there would be BSs that felt their WSs were way more negligent.
When you got that cry of "my emotional needs were not being met" didn't you just want to say "Say, Honey, do you think there might be the remotest possibility that , maybe, you were a little less than perfect in that regard, as well?"
I got this escuse from my first XWW, a serial cheater who , in 1994(the only year I tracked) spent 224 nights out until after 2 in the morning. We had two sons, 4 and 6, at that time, one with a severe disability.
I wanted to both
and
, but, instead tole her that maybe I sould have sought a "soulmate",too, as she met none of our familiy's or my needs.
Open and Honesty - "I just told you what you wanted to hear" - that was his comment about his 4 years working abroad. I can only imagine what he hasn't told me about - to be continued...
Affection - less and less the longer he was abroad and if it was always sexual
Family Commitment - I don't think he even knows the names of our sons teachers
Oh yeah I forgot - he said to me he was "emotionally starved"
Some, but not all of my needs where being met pree A
I believe this to be true of nearly all WSs. They were all GOING to cheat at some point in their lives, no matter who they marry.
I would not say nearly all, but a majority... Say 75%
Some people are just not meant for marriage.
100% of those people cheat
Ditto.
While I don't doubt my XWW has a list of valid complaints (which are still a state secret) here is my list of unmet needs up to her saying ILYBINILWY:
1. SF, no SF in at least 3 months prior to this.
2. DS, she was a SAHM, but still couldn't keep the house neat
3. FS, yes FS, that includes spending less than we made. We had 70K in unsecured debt and I was debt free when I married. I paid most of this off during the divorce, but she still got half of a good portion of it as the snapshot of the finances was taken long before the divorce was final. I was able to pay off close to all of the 70K of debt, while paying for my attorney and the voluntary CS I gave her prior to any court ordered CS.
4. AS, she wanted a gym membership to stay thin, wanted a treadmill, exercise bike, etc. I provided all of them. Never once used until she started her affair.
5. RC, contrary to what Dr H says in his article about women wanting to be invited into every room in my life, she WAS invited in and chose to stay out. She didn't want to join in when I was autocrossing, didn't want to participate in church groups etc.
I don't even know why I wanted to save my marriage when I look back. I guess I believed in my vows and wanted my child to have an intact family.
She was right in one way, I had little if any love for her at the time she had her affair. I loved her, but not because of her, but rather in spite of her. I chose to love her.
She chose not to love me back, and evidence is her affair and choice to divorce.
Count me as a BS with unmet ENs. I agree with others who say there is something fundamentally wrong with WSs. Not only were my ENs not met, I actually recognized and understood this - though I didn't know they were called ENs at the time. I worked very hard to try to fix the problem in my M. When I couldn't, I found other ways to fulfill myself in every aspect except one. Without cheating.
RC/socialization: spent time riding horses, developed friendships with other women who became my companions. When my son got old enough to drive, he became my "date" for weddings and other obligatory events (this was actually a sweet deal as he was an automatic DD).
Admiration and Financial security: worked very, very hard advancing my career, became very respected in my field and got a cushy job
Affection: got a dog. Okay, it wasn't the same but at some point I did accept that I was leading an affectionate life and that this was the way it was going to be.
My marriage was empty, but my life was very full. There was never a thought about cheating.
When I mentioned to my wife that she was the really the one neglecting my EN's not the other way around, her response was "Well I'm sorry, but I have not loved you in years..."
So in her mind its ok that she did not meet my needs and then goes off and has an affair. This type of rationalization is probably pretty common amongst WSs.
OK, kick me off and I'm sorry I'm butting in. But I wanted to validate here. No way was I meating BH's needs when I cheated. I was so selfish it would have been impossible for me to have been meeting his needs. Life was all about me. I don't think a WW can honestly say she was meeting her H's needs and then go out and have an A. If I had cared about H the way I was supposed to I not only would have met his needs, I probably wouldn't have had an affair. Don't let your WS pull that wool over your eyes. You are right on the money about this one. Okay, I'll go away now.
An interesting perspective, lurioosi2. One I'd like to believe is true. But the WS can't see that, can they?
My WW, in her (now recognized as) fogbabble maintained that she had not changed in the relationship, I had. She had continued to show affection, was willing and available for SF at any time, and that it was I who had distanced myself from the relationship.
And it's true, in part. In an earlier post today, I gave perhaps my first analysis of what EN I hadn't been receiving. I struggled to find these, which is one reason WW was able to batter me with her justifications and accusations.
She was much more able than I to identify where her EN hadn't been met. In this respect, she was being completely honest, but only because the focus was completely on her.
We haven't gotten to the point where we can sit down and work on recovery. Perhaps we never will.
Okay I'm jumping on the band wagon of my EN's were not being met either. Before I found out about exWH 2nd affair if he did do anything nice for me and I would tell him thank-you that I liked that he would stop doing it.
During the last year before he left anytime I would try to intiate SF he would reject me. We had even gone to a resort with friends and he rejected me every night that we were there. I never thought about resorting to an A, I knew how deeply they hurt.
I guess he didn't want to cheat on his ho.
Still
Using unmet needs as an EXCUSE to have an affair is about like the bank robber blaming the bank for robbing them because they wouldn't give him a loan. Dr. Harley actually uses that analogy in the post he wrote to me once.
I agree that many, if not MOST betrayed spouses were not getting their needs met either. But, they didn't have an affair, did they?
MelodyLane: Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.
You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."
An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.
Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
Thanks for the reality check ML. While what lurioosi wrote is likely true to an extent, my WXH wasn't meeting my ENs for a long, long time. I'm pretty sure he wasn't cheating that whole time. I wasn't meeting his very well either. He cheated, I didn't. Two different choices made to deal with the same problem. No, unmet ENs does not excuse adultery.
You are correct in that unmet needs does not excuse adultery however i am sure that most WSs would disagree with you
...............
You are correct in that unmet needs does not excuse adultery however i am sure that most WSs would disagree with you
...............
Yes, you here them bandying this justification about, incessantly. What hypocrites, as most were terrible at meeting the needs of their spouses, IMO.
One has to really have to have a huge sense of entitlement and lack perspective to try to say that as the type of person likely to cheat, the WS was decent at meeting needs in the marriage.
I wonder if a good question is whether the BS or WS spoke openly about how their EN were not being met and for how long. Were we or they vocal about it? I am not defending, just a question and could be said for BS withdrawing (if they did) before D-Day.
Well count me in on the "BS not getting EN's Met" tally.....
Our marriage was the pits...as I had described numerous times on my thread.
HOWEVER, I couldn't ignore the fact that I had not done my part in the marriage. I took on FULL RESPONSIBILITY of my part in the demise of my marriage. I also totally believed in Dr. H's reasoning in why people have affairs and HOW they happen. I also know that while my boundaries were much stronger than H's (I don't think he had any...) that given the right circumstances, I was too could have found myself on the other side of that equation.
BUT in the end, I had to quit doing a "scoreboard" of who was meeting who's needs better and just do the job I SHOULD have done all along......
not2fun
I wonder if a good question is whether the BS or WS spoke openly about how their EN were not being met and for how long. Were we or they vocal about it? I am not defending, just a question and could be said for BS withdrawing (if they did) before D-Day.
I was vocal about it. I tried everything. His answer was that's just the way he was. I even accused him of tricking me into marrying him - because before that he WAS affectionate, we used to go out dancing and we had a group of friends we played cards with, and he was ambitious in his work and cared about fiscal responsibility. However, when he flat out refused to even attempt to meeting my needs, I did withdraw. That and I found my own ways to fulfill myself (friends, horses, work etc) so I not only didn't complain to him anymore, but I wasn't even really around him much. So yes, I am responsible for my share of the state of the M but I still didn't cheat.
not2fun,
I think you explained it well. For some reason BS seem to act like they could never have A, when we've seen it on this board. Either RA or after d-day working to R, but having some sort of loss from finding out and then later (like months/years) find someone who "will listen" or "understand" and before they know it land in A land.
By saying you SHOULD have worked on you and worked on meeting S EN and not have a scoreboard of who's meeting who's needs how often, which ones, and how long. It's my opinion that we should always try to be in Plan A, shouldn't we? Isn't that the point of MB? To get rid of LB, AO, AH, and to meet our S ENs? With the Plan A, isn't this suppose to bring our S back to us. If there is no A, then "Plan A" is really implementing MB principles that ARE Plan A, which in turn will make for a better M, right? However, what if you are implementing MB principles yet the S doesn't put any effort in? This last question should not be included, but that is where MB breaks down.
tabby,
I hear you. I have done the same with my S. I have been vocal since day one and 15 years later she is actually "getting" it. The other night was another argument about lack of SF. She always used, "Most M have trouble with SF." I was actually whitty enough this time to say, "Most M have nasty fighting too, do you want to be part of the most, and have an average M, or do you want an exceptional one?" She shut up at this and I could tell it was an epiphany moment for her, she was quite the rest of the night. Those moments use to be non existent until a year ago, and now they seem to be happening more frequent so I think after 7+ years of MB from one side of the marriage, it is actually working!!! But I'm exhausted from doing most of the lifting, glad to see her at least seeing that I've been lifting, not that she will at anytime in the future.
I've accused my H of tricking me into marrying him before, too. After everything came to light, I found out he'd cheated on me before we were married.
And that's when things between us were always great.
My biggest fear is that my H is a serial cheater who will have ONS after ONS if he knows he won't get caught. Part of me wants to try to set him up with a female decoy of sorts to see if he'd take the bait.
Just to test him. Before I put too much time and effort into recovery. I know this is probably the wrong attitude to have, but how do you know if you're dealing with a serial cheater?
My H never once wanted to "leave" me. He just was fine sleeping with random skanks. ONS after ONS. And lying to me about it. I never once thought he ever wanted "out" of the marriage. He's even said that. i don't worry about him up and leaving me one day, I worry about him being, "that guy" who cheats on his wife any chance he gets.
Sure, now he's being great. Saying all the right things, doing all the right things... but there will always be another opportunity to cheat. I just wonder if he'd take it.
It takes TWO to torpedo a marriage. But it only takes ONE to have the affair.
And yeah, I got the babblecrap from my husband too. His line though was even more pitiful. We had reached a real low point; a time when we barely interacted with each other. Truthfully, I was very close to leaving him. When I put him on that plane to go to his high school reunion, I jumped for joy at having two weeks WITHOUT him (if I had only known....)
But did I go out and have an affair? Would have never dawned on me to do so.
He once admitted to me that he thought my withdrawal was due to my having an affair. I wonder when I would have had the time to fit that in?
Anyway, his line of "I thought we were over" is just about the most pitiful thing I've heard yet. He thinks we're over so he hooks up with an old girlfriend? Yes, very mature. NOT More like "my navel is the center of the universe and I can only be concerned with my own happiness"
I lost a LOT of respect for him over this and the sad part is I don't think I'll ever, ever regain it.
Well count me in on the "BS not getting EN's Met" tally.....
Our marriage was the pits...as I had described numerous times on my thread.
HOWEVER, I couldn't ignore the fact that I had done my part. I took on FULL RESPONSIBILITY of my part in the demise of my marriage. I also totally believed in Dr. H's reasoning in why people have affairs and HOW they happen. I also know that while my boundaries were much stronger than H's (I don't think he had any...) that given the right circumstances, I was too could have found myself on the other side of that equation.
BUT in the end, I had to quit doing a "scoreboard" of who was meeting who's needs better and just do the job I SHOULD have done all along......
not2fun
...and,then, get out if the cheater does not respond to your doing your part. But do not resort to cheating, like the WS has done.
It CAN take two to torpedo the marriage. But, one, alone, can do it ,as well, if the behaviors are egregious enough. The 50/50 pre affair problem thing sounds nice. But, it does not always hold up under scrutiny.
My guess is all of them. Their giver stops giving and their taker comes out. The other persons taker comes out and the WS finds themselves in an affair.
From the MB website...
But in marriage, a strange thing happens to the way our Givers and Takers operate. They seem to work independently of each other. Either the Giver is in charge, and we give unconditionally to our spouses, or the Taker is in charge where we take what we want from our spouses without giving anything in return.
When the Giver is in charge, we are loving and considerate. But we tend to make personal sacrifices to see to it that our spouses are happy and fulfilled, because our Takers are not there to defend our personal interests and our Givers do not care how we feel.
But when the Taker is in charge, we are rude, demanding and inconsiderate. All we seem to think about is ourselves, and what our spouses can do to make us happy. We expect our spouses to make sacrifices for us, because our Takers don't care how our spouses feel.
I want to emphasize to you that this is normal behavior in marriage. You might think you're married to a crazy person, or you may think you're crazy yourself, but let me assure you, marriage is one of the very few conditions that bring out the pure Giver and Taker in each of us. And that usually makes us seem much crazier than we really are.
It should be no surprise to you that it isn't the Giver that ruins marriages -- it's the Taker. But the Giver plays a very important role in creating the problem. It's the effort of the Giver to give our spouses anything they want that sets up the Taker for it's destructive acts. After you have been giving, giving, giving to your spouse, and receiving little in return (because you haven't bargained for much), your Taker rises up to straighten out the situation. It sees the unfairness of it all, and steps in to balance the books. But instead of coming to a more balanced arrangement, where you get something for what you give, the Taker just moves the Giver out of the picture altogether. It says, "I've been giving enough, now it's your turn to give."
I wonder if a good question is whether the BS or WS spoke openly about how their EN were not being met and for how long. Were we or they vocal about it? I am not defending, just a question and could be said for BS withdrawing (if they did) before D-Day.
It is a good question.....for us, the question would be "How were we vocal?"...Ummmm, through AO'S, DJ'S, Sarcasism.....you know, all those lovely love bustin ways.....
In seriousness though, 5 yrs prior to Dday, H did write me a letter about his unhappiness in our marriage. It mostly told me what he was missing, which EN'S weren't being met (not that we knew about EN'S then....), and which LB's I had been engaging in. The letter DID NOT go over well with my Taker though....
....Unfortunately, some issue's came into our lives that had to take precedence over the issue's in our marriage, and by the time all that was resolved a couple of years later, neither one of us were willing to address our marriage. So we just coasted by, letting the other know about how our EN'S were going unmet (can we say total Taker mode....) through LB'S and fights, not resolving them, and then wham!!! before you know it, H is head long into an affair......the only if's.
I would gather many spouse's, both BS's and WS's probably DID let the other know about their unhappiness, but when done through Love Buster's, usually the point is missed. And so they enter into WD. The state of confliction is usually dealt with in either a fight or flight method and when the fighting doesn't resolve anything (like it ever does....), the next logical step is flight, which typically is WD. Thus the cycle continues......
Looking back, all of this is easy for me to see NOW, but at the time, no understanding what-so-ever......live and learn
I would also like to add, that when my EN'S were not getting met, I never thought to have an affair. But then again, neither did H. I truly believe that most affairs aren't done intently.
I can also attest that in COW's sitch, both of them were happy with their M and attested that the other was doing well with meeting each other's EN's. So, while H and I are the "unhappy and crappy" example, they were the "happily married" example.....
not2fun
COW's sitch is a perfect example of the uppitiness of most on this thread, like it would be impossible for them to have an affair. Yeah, our WS were the weaker, but we are all vulnerable. Bump into someone on a regular basis at work or any where, say passing cliches, then wham! Caught in a web.
COW's sitch is a perfect example of the uppitiness of most on this thread, like it would be impossible for them to have an affair. Yeah, our WS were the weaker, but we are all vulnerable. Bump into someone on a regular basis at work or any where, say passing cliches, then wham! Caught in a web.
Agreed. My fwxw SAVED MY LIFE!! I really believe that. If I'd gone first(and last as she would not have had an RA) I don't know if I could live with it. I just don't! Instead, I had numerous liasons over the past year. I'm certain I had ws tendencies and they showed after DDAY! DUDE
COW's sitch is a perfect example of the uppitiness of most on this thread, like it would be impossible for them to have an affair. Yeah, our WS were the weaker, but we are all vulnerable. Bump into someone on a regular basis at work or any where, say passing cliches, then wham! Caught in a web.
Man, I have been bumping into folks at work for a long time(need to get my eyes checked) and I'm just full of cliches. Funny, no affair. Wonder when it is gonna happen(might help if I was good looking, I suppose).
COW's sitch is a perfect example of the uppitiness of most on this thread, like it would be impossible for them to have an affair. Yeah, our WS were the weaker, but we are all vulnerable. Bump into someone on a regular basis at work or any where, say passing cliches, then wham! Caught in a web.
Man, I have been bumping into folks at work for a long time(need to get my eyes checked) and I'm just full of cliches. Funny, no affair. Wonder when it is gonna happen(might help if I was good looking, I suppose).
It aint looks. Nobody wants to cheat w/ anyone hot lest they get cheated on..DUDE
Having your needs met is necessary for a happy marriage, but unless you marry a retarded 12 year old, needs being met and infidelity are completely unrelated.
You said it. With all due respect to the Harleys, there's no connection between needs being met or physical attractiveness when it comes to cheating. ENs are necessary for a good marriage, as Krazy said above, but will do nothing to prevent cheating.
People cheat because they think they can. That's it. That's all. It's just entitlement run wild.
If it was lack of ENs being met, I'm the one who would have had 27 boyfriends while married to XWH. I never had any. I was largely ignored and became more and more emotionally starved and fragile, while XWH was hogging down double and triple helpings every day and just couldn't understand what was wrong with me. His life was great. He told me I "needed help".
Mulan
Mulan,
I agree, EN CAN be met and if not? It doesn't matter. I was just curious how many WS or BS were almost begging for EN to be met before WD or A.
Mulan,
I agree, EN CAN be met and if not? It doesn't matter. I was just curious how many WS or BS were almost begging for EN to be met before WD or A.
themud, I have a somewhat unique perspective on this, in that my current marriage and my last marriage had affairs, but both with different causes. My last marriage of 20 years ended over an affair. In that marriage, my REFUSAL to meet his needs made him vulnerable to an affair. His top 3 needs were SF, RC and Conversation. I refused to have SF with him, wouldn't go anywhere with him and had no patience for his mindless blabbering. I treated him with horrendous disrespect. So, the first skank that came along and offered to meet his needs was irresistable to him. It was like a starving man encountering an all-u-can-eat buffet. There is no excuse for his affair, but my treatment of him contributed to his vulnerable state.
Fast forward to current marriage. We had been married 6 months when I discovered his online EA with an old girlfriend. I had been meeting all of his needs. He had his affair because he was a man of low character. It had nothing to do with unmet needs. And this is coroborated by our counselor who introduced us to Marriage Builders.
Some affairs do result from unmet needs. It might be the REASON he was vulnerable, but it is never an EXCUSE. It is NEVER EVER an excuse for an affair and never is the BS to blame for a bad decision he/she never had any vote on.
Like Dr Harley said, blaming the BS is analogous to blaming the bank for a bank robbery because they refused him a loan.
I think this deserves a REPEAT:
You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."
An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.
Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.
You know what, some BSs could NEVER have an A. I, for one consider someone who so selfishly cheats on their spouse and stays with them the same as I do a child molester. To me saying that a WS who continues to stay with their spouse and cheat on them is like saying a child molester cannot help themselves because they can't help it; because they are lonely; because they were abused. I have had MANY opportunities to cheat if I wanted but I totally avoid all that may tempt me because I WILL NEVER CHEAT ON MY SPOUSE- PERIOD. So I think it's a bunch of crock that anyone will cheat if given the right circumstances. In my first M, I was so miserable in that M. He was abusive and I stayed. I thought about it, I was even attracted to other men BUT I DID NOT CHEAT. Some people will not cheat no matter what. They will leave.
I agree with cobol_girl. I would never cheat on my W. I cannot imagine any "conditions" that would cause me to do so. If it were that bad I would just leave.
I was doing far more to meet her ENs. In fact she was doing almost nothing to meet mine. She had a huge sense of entitlement. I guess that was mostly my fault, because for 9 years I bent over backwards to try to give her everything she needed, and most of what she wanted.
We were pretty far apart on some parenting/discipline issues, and that was all we ever fought about. Then she convinced herself that I didn't lover her anymore, and that I hated her kids even when it had only been about 4 months since I told her that I wanted to adopt them. She even posted on her facebook page that I was a wonderful husband less than a month before she began her online affair which turned physical.
She lied to me about where she was going that day, and stopped by a lawyer's office on her way to his hotel room. She has told me "we were getting a divorce". She doesn't say that anymore, but when she did, I would say "no, YOU were getting a divorce".
She now admits in her mind at the time, if she started D procedings, that we were separated, and it was ok to be with OM, and that it wasn't cheating. Even though I was totally oblivious to any of it, including her plans to leave me.
It is just truly amazing, but very sad how a person can convince themselves of just about anything when full blown selfishness kicks in.
My sitch is slightly different than most here on MB.
I would have to say that i at the time my H had his A i was not doing a good job at meeting his ENs. With that said the reason i was not meeting his ENs was because of him.
We had a drunken relative living with us and i did not want him there and i begged my H to make the relative leave. I told him i did not like being around this person (because he was always falling down drunk) and if my H chose to spend his time around his relative that was his choice but i would not be around the two of them.
Well my H allowed this drunken relative to live at our house for 3 years (that is a long time). By that time we were no longer spending time together at all and he was vunerable to the OW.
So while i agree that i was not meeting his ENs at the time he had the A, I was not meeting them because his choice to be with the relative instead of me.
And he did not really act like most waywards i read here on MB in that he did not rewrite our marital history and he never told me he did not love me. He took full blame for everything that happened.
I still look back throughout our M and see that he has had selfish wayward tendencies since the beginning. And he has not really ever been very good at meeting my ENs even though i have shared them with him vocally in every way i know how. Yet i practice EPs to the inth degree to ensure that i could hardly even have a chance to have an A much less have i ever even considering cheating.
Mine wasn't even feeding me and I couldn't even drag myself across the floor to the kitchen to get something to eat. And when I could drag myself around, she put the food out of my reach.
So no, she wasn't meeting any of my needs.
Evil [censored].
Pariah, the fact that your WW is not in jail scares me.
Mine wasn't even feeding me and I couldn't even drag myself across the floor to the kitchen to get something to eat. And when I could drag myself around, she put the food out of my reach.
So no, she wasn't meeting any of my needs.
Evil [censored].
Can we say Kathy Bates (Misery)?
My husband went to an island 3 yrs ago and said admitted to "hanging" out with young woman while there. He said they didn't kiss or have sex.
He has been interacting with her over the past 3 years via email telling her he loves her, exchanging pictures and possibly sending her money. How can a little encounter amount to a 3 year relationship over the internet and phone calls? He says it is just phone sex.
Please help me see through this. I don't feel I can trust him anymore and this isn't the first time he has denied a relationship with another woman.
I am so confused and hurt!
atlantacutie, please start up a new thread so posters can help you. Posters won't see your post buried down here at the bottom of a Tiger thread.
You know what, some BSs could NEVER have an A. I, for one consider someone who so selfishly cheats on their spouse and stays with them the same as I do a child molester. To me saying that a WS who continues to stay with their spouse and cheat on them is like saying a child molester cannot help themselves because they can't help it; because they are lonely; because they were abused.
Cobol,
I would consider this a far stretch. WS and child molester's aren't even in the same category. My H was a WH. My daughter was molested. No matter what he did to ME and the kids, it does not even compare to the hell and anguish that that monster did to my daughter. What H did to me, nearly broke me, but that monster stole my 9 yr. old D's innocence.....and in my heart of hearts, I have yet to seen a WS as horrible as the child molester (and there are some pretty rotten ones on here.....)
not2fun
* raises hand * I thought EVERYBODY was unfulfilled in marriage so I tolerated not having my ENs met.
When my WS admitted what was going on (EA with co-worker) it was because he was ready to take it further. his comments were, i'm not happy you're not happy, not for a long time. i don't know if i want to be married, you would be better off without me, you deserve better, we're just two lonely people living together.
i was shocked out of my stupor, he wasn't all right, but he was'nt all wrong. i wonder if anyone, put in the wrong circumstance would make the wrong decision. Starving people don't care what they eat, they are just hungry.
i plan to keep my husband full.........
Mine wasn't even feeding me and I couldn't even drag myself across the floor to the kitchen to get something to eat. And when I could drag myself around, she put the food out of my reach.
So no, she wasn't meeting any of my needs.
Evil [censored].
Yikes, sounds like Betty Davis' caretaking routine in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane". I think she served her disabled sister(Joan Crawford) a rat.
I lost so much weight, I would have loved to have even a rat to eat.
Re: How Many BSs' Were Not Getting Their ENs Met?
I must be an anomaly. Not only
was Flick trying to meet my needs until the A turned PA, I wasn�t interested in letting him fill them. Until I noticed he had stopped trying.
LB's were the problem in our M, not EN's
Infidelity is a symptom of marital dysfunction, and we had it in spades.
I lost so much weight, I would have loved to have even a rat to eat.
Both my WW and I have both lost weight. I don't mind, however. As a runner, I've been wanting to trim down, but meal time with WW never allowed me the luxury.
Some people say I'm too thin now. But I like the way I look.
The last time WW and I were on speaking terms, she was a little worried about her weight loss. Now that she's resumed smoking, I can only imagine what she's going to look like soon (not to mention what that will do for her running).
You asked:
How Many BSs' Were Not Getting Their ENs Met?
The answer is:
Every one of us.