I am really speechless on how addicted my H is to OW.
We have been separated now for almost 3 and half months. H arrives at work late and leaves early so he can be with her during the time her kids are at school. He has been reprimanded by his superior (we work at the same place) and he keeps doing it.
He has no friends and the friends and collegues at work tell me he is avoiding them or keeps interactions to the bare bones.
He has minimal interaction with our son and with his own family and siblins.
Is he really sick? Where is this going to take him to. I am seriously concerned. He thinks that the love nest with OW will last and be as blissful as it is now, but how can a 50 years old man think that isolation and avoidance and disrispect for rules and obligations can lead him to a new and better life?
I am concerned mainly for my son who has to see his father in this condition of total addiction to one person!
Do you have similar examples that show their level of madness?
blessing

My DH didn't show crazy signs of addiction besides one episode when I was scheduled to go with him on a business trip where the XOW lived. He started an argument and I ended up deciding not to go because of his foul mood. He went and stayed over night (ugh). That's the only time that he showed any signs of an A and I started snooping and found out one week later. Your DH sounds like he is in full throttle. Are you exercising Plan A? What are you doing for yourself? We followed Dr. Harley's plan and one year and six month later our M is in a much better place.

Believer's husband was so addicted that he lost all the family $$$, lost his Harley, lost his family, lost his marriage, lost his self respect ... then, ultimately, took his own life.

This is what AA calls "low bottom".
The low bottom addict's brain is so sick & twisted, they crash much lower than other addicts.

Not a pretty picture.

Be grateful you are not a wayward/infidel/addict.

I think my WW could be the poster child for Addiction (with a capital "A"). She was fired from her job in July. I'm guessing the A began shortly thereafter. And until just recently, she never even bothered to look for work, despite being overdrawn on her checking account and way past overdue on her credit cards. Not only did she not look for work, D-day was Oct. 23, and up until the day she moved out (Nov. 30) she NEVER ONCE looked for a place to live.

During the time OM was in the hospital getting his masculinity trimmed, she nearly spent night and day there. Not only have I lost weight, but so has she. The last time I saw her, she seemed almost scrawny (she was 5'4", 108#). She took up smoking again, and still thinks she's going to be distance running.

And all during this time, she thinks she's being a vital, active member of A.A., dispensing her experience, strength and hope to newcomer women, who haven't a clue as to the level of her dishonesty and deceit.

An addict -- no matter to what they're addicted -- is not a pretty sight.

Incidentally, the word "addiction" is often used here. Below are the seven criteria for dependence (mostly alcohol, but it can be applied to virtually any addiction) as listed in the DSM-IV. I believe anyone meeting three or more of these criteria can be considered addicted. Also, the first two are the only physical criteria. The remaining five are all about loss of control:

The seven criteria for substance dependence are:

(1) Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:

...(a) A need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect.

...(b) Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance.

(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:

...(a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A or B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from specific substances).

...(b) The same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.

(3) The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.

(4) There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use.

(5) A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (such as visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (such as chain smoking) or recover from its effects.

(6) Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.

(7) The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance.

Source:

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Text Revision, Fourth Edition, (Copyright 2000). American Psychiatric Association.

IMO, in some cases it becomes more than an addiction. It seems to me that some WS's reach a point where they continue in this manner to try proove to others that they were right.

Yes. In some cases it involves evilness.

Hey Fred,

My WW is clearly drinking the same kool-aid as Mrs. Fred. WW is also quite an active member of AA. 15 years in the program. OM? About the same amount of time in the program. They both admitted via e-mail (after my phone discussion with OM) that they have not been behaving like people with that level of time/service in the program, but whatta ya know, TB is still dealing with this cancer......

Maybe alcohol ain't the four alarm fire for them at the moment, but we still have a whale of an addiction situation cooking......

Quite right, quite right.

I generally assume we're ruling out the evil ones when asking questions. Else the answer would always be "they are evil."

A.A. has a saying for this (A.A. has a saying for everything, I think): Denial is an acronym:
Don't
Even
(K)now
I
Am
Lying

I also like Dr. Drew Pinsky's 5-word definition of addiction:

Continued
Behaviour
Despite
Negative
Consequences

And yes, whether WS are focused on just one OP or are serial cheaters with a collection, they sure do fit the description of an addict (see 5-word definition above).

It's understood now that addictions are not just to things like opium. Addictions can be either substance (alcohol, meth, etc.) or behavioural (gambling, shopping, adultery).

I think that anyone who says this stuff is not an addiction has never had a cheating spouse and has never watched them be fully willing to throw away their own families (and sometimes their careers) rather than give up the OP(s).

Update: Tiger has been forced to give up golf. He is losing his endorsements and his wife has moved out and is filing for divorce. But word is that he remains in contact with at least one of his ho collection and plans to spend Christmas partying with his single guy friends.

But he's not an addict. This is all normal healthy behaviour that is making him happy. Right?
Mulan

Mulan

I've never been a fan of the idea that WS's are addicted. I agree that they act like addicts, but they are not addicted. I know people will say a bunch of stuff about dopamine being released in the brain, etc., but chocolate does the same thing.

Hi Cobol,
so you D then you R the M?
H moved out over 3 months ago. I am on plan b.

It might not be an addiction but it certainly does something to him. Make him unreasonable, makes him do weird things.
A while ago H said that he knew he was making a mistake(leaving me, at that point i did not know about the A) and he knew that something was wrong with him, but that the drive to have sex with OWs was too addictive.
Why couldn't he go to see a therapist????
After his first A 4 years ago he said that the A helped him because he only had a choice between an A and suicide. Again...go and see a therapist or a doctor!!!!! Wouldn't that be a huge clue that there is something wrong with you!
blessing

HAHAHA.... my xWH actually told someone that's why he couldn't stop his A after two years.

Well, I can see my H continuing to do what he is doing just to prove he is right. That is so much like him!
But while he is trying to prove he is right it must be sheer h*ll!
He might experience truly what being unhappy means! And he would have to put up a smile!
But you know what....I think he is so messed up that he would be able to do that only for a little while and the he really will become suicidal again!
blessing

atena, like your WH my XH gave up EVERYTHING for PP. He was her manager and almost lost his job but did lose his position. She still works there and so do I.

He avoids most of his old coworkers and friends (because no one agrees with what he did). D16 has not talked or seen him since May and D29 has just recently just started to talk to him. Him and PP still pretend that they are only work acquantances even though they have been living together since June.

He is addicted both to the A and now back to alcohol (no surprise that PP is a big drinker). He lost his morals, ethics, family, finances and has aged 10 years. PP controls his every move and we do not think he is allowed to have any contact.

Will it last? I wait for the karma bus and the explosion. He gave up everything for a cheap plastic cheating ho who cheated on both of her x-husbands and her X-BF of 4 years to go "out" with XH.

I pray one day that when her true self comes out again that the fog will lift.

wow Hope, you work with both o them? Am I understanding this correctly?
How can you do that. I work with H, but hardly see him since we work in different buildings, but I could not imagine seeing OW and H together at work.
Yes, every outsider looks at our Hs and thinks: what in the world are they thinking?
It is so obvious they are making a huge mistake, losing everything and most of all their integrity. But Hs do not see it. They just feel entitled, they feel it is their right.
And your H...going with a serial cheater, an obvious w**re! And still in denial, just like mine. He does not tell anyone at work that we are separated!
This is just madness! They really do not care about anything. They just want to avoid giving any explanations.
My H told his sister that it is his own business what he does in his life and that co-workers or me or friends are not entitled to know or care!
So there you have it!
blessing

That's why exposure is so critical. It ends the fantasy of the affair. An affair is mold growing in the dark corners of a wayward's life.

The sunlight of exposure burns the fantasy of an affair away, leaving only the reality: a marriage gangrenous from lack of attention, the rotting corpse of the wayward's integrity and respect, and the hungry wails of children too long neglected by the selfish pursuit of a wayward's "privacy".

Hope, I pray you will take this in the spirit it is given, and not in the way it might read:

The longer you remain centered in the emotional toilet of this horrible situation, the more you stand to become part of the unflushed mess. I know that it is still raw for you and that you must grieve and let it run its course, but I read in your words an intense sense of non-closure. Your signature says your D was final in October but you haven't yet signed the paperwork. What are you waiting for?

Your description of your XH would probably fit Webster's definition of "damaged." Why hold on to the memory of a person who is so badly wayward (and I don't mean that in the MB sense of the word) that redemption may never come?

Please do yourself a favor: Grieve, yes. But also realize that you are alive -- you have SURVIVED -- and are now a better person for it. Your XH is fallen. And he may never get up.

I exposed to everybody who cares to know! And yesterday at the xmas party at work I exposed to the big boss...and guess what?..Her H has been cheating on her for years and has a kid with OW!
But big boss told me she has to keep up appearance because her H is a big shot politician in a foreign country and has lots of $$$ and she does not want to D because her kids will lose the inheritance as he will then be able to M Ow.
It is amazing what we have to put up with!
But H is really exposed now! At work everybody knows! The neighbor all know, his family, mine, our son....our friends. Really!
But you know what, he lives a life of an hermit and see no one but her. They have their love nest near a beautiful lake and seem to be happy just with eachother!
blessing

Yes we all work for the same company. Granted we work in different buildings but we do have interactions beccause of our jobs. At the beginning of this I was scared to tell anyone but then I found MB and it gave me courage. I can't tell you how many people who still don't know.

Last week I ran into someone I hadn't seen in awhile and he mentions that he has not seen XH for about a month and how is he doing. Before I would have mumbled something unintelligible and ran away. I looked him directly in the eye and said "XH walked out on his family last year for PP and D me. You need to ask PP since he has been living with her since June. He was floored. I did nothing wrong and held my head high.

It has to be difficult for you also working in the same place. Hate it.

It is! People ask me about him all the time since he leaves early from work and they do need him to do stuff. He is really smart and knows his stuff, but he is gone before you know it to be with her. So now I tell people: oh, we are separated. He has been having an A with downstair neighbor for 18 months. I found out 4 months ago. He now lives on his own and sees her regularly.

The problem is what follows. People at that point usually say: Oh, this must be so hard for you...you must be so angry....how do you cope with this?
And I think this is where I became too vulnerable....I never know what to say.
I also become resentuful, he is having the A, he is not telling anyone so he does not have to put up with questions...and here I am having to answer them all!!
Any suggestions?
blessing

If you aren't addicted to anything, you CAN'T understand this statement.

If you ARE, just like I am, then you can.

When I was in the addiction, I can TELL you from EXPERIENCE I didn't care about ANYONE or ANYTHING, certainly NOT a CONSEQUENCE.

The power of addiction isn't FAKE, it's absolutely real.

I had a similar experience last night. At a meeting, the wife of one of the regulars (they attend as a couple) asked me, "where's S_____?" Not knowing she didn't know, I simply replied, "I guess she's with her boy friend." The shocked look on her face told me this was news to her.

So, I apologized for shocking her, telling her that I thought she already knew. After the meeting, she and her H spoke with me and allowed me to tell them the story. They were more than supportive, even offering to invite me over for the holidays! I thanked them, but told them I was OK, and that I already had plans.

Here's the pitch: I'm alright! Sure, I tell people this is the most painful thing I've ever experienced. But I'm not the one who broke my vows. I'm not the one who violated my commitments. I'm not the one who turned my back on family, neighbors and friends. No, I'm alright. Thank you, very much.

aetna, sorry to highjack your thread but want to answer Fred.

Hope, I pray you will take this in the spirit it is given, and not in the way it might read:

I take this in a good spirit of a fellow MBer who cares


The longer you remain centered in the emotional toilet of this horrible situation, the more you stand to become part of the unflushed mess. I know that it is still raw for you and that you must grieve and let it run its course, but I read in your words an intense sense of non-closure. Your signature says your D was final in October but you haven't yet signed the paperwork. What are you waiting for?

There were some issues/clarifications that had to be rectified after final mediation which took some time to work out between both attys. Would not sign on the dotted line till everything was spelled out (can't believe all the careless errors that end up in the decree. Read it line by line.

Your description of your XH would probably fit Webster's definition of "damaged." Why hold on to the memory of a person who is so badly wayward (and I don't mean that in the MB sense of the word) that redemption may never come?

XH has turned into an alien. I know this. I have read some hopeless threads where the waywards have come out of the fog and found their way home. Only God knows the plan for me and I have faith in Him (not XH) I also know that they have to hit rock bottom and I see that XH is starting to spiral down between his alcoholism, finances and losing all respect and position at work. For today I am willing to fight the good fight for this M even though I stand alone.

Please do yourself a favor: Grieve, yes. But also realize that you are alive -- you have SURVIVED -- and are now a better person for it. Your XH is fallen. And he may never get up.

I have grieved, I have cried a million tears, I have gone through every emotion. I have come a long way from the beginning of this nightmare. I have picked myself, faced this every day at my job, taken care of my daughter as a single mother, joined a gym, lost almost 50 pounds and not only survived but thriving. Yes, there are times that I get down and deprssed such as during these holidays and I also know it is ok to be sad. I will pick myself back up and keep going. What is closure -- I don't know. I chose not to date because I feel like a M single. I have friends, I have family, I have God. That is enough for now.
[/quote]

aetna Before this A, XH was a work-aholic and had goals for the direction he was going in his position. After the A started, he changed completely...stopped bringing work home or PC. Missed more days of work this past year then he has in the last 5 years, leaves early. It is like he just gave up on his life and drifting along.

How do you feel about your WH? Do you still love him? Do you still want to restore the M? Be honest. I just say that this was XH choice and I never wanted this. I say that I love the old H, not what he has turned into. We had 22 years together and those years do not just disappear. You would be surprised how people will respect the truth.

I have talked to many women that told me that when their spouses cheated they ran out and got a D. Many have regrets and said pride got in the way.

Only we can say when it is over. It is our final decision not theirs.

Thank you Fred. You gave me a good idea. Next time someone asks I will say: He is with his girlfriend. Because that is the truth.
There is this particular co-worker who, every time she sees me, she hugs me and uses a pitiful voice saying: oh, I know how hard it is (her H cheated on her and now they are in R after 6 years of him having moved out) so let me know if you need help!
She means somewhat well, but she is loud and draws the attention of everyone around....that is soooo embarrassing.
This whole separation has put me thru the washer and dryer cycle! i had enough!
Again if you have any more suggestions on how to handle people reactions...they are more that welcome!
blessing

Hope,
The truth is that I still love my H and that after 20 years of M I am not ready to give up easily. I gave myself till October 2010 to wait for him to see if he has a change of heart. After that I will move on. Till then I will not give him a D.
I live in a country where it takes 3 years to D AFTER a full year or so of legal separation. So it will take him a total of 4 years to obtain a D.
That is if I am in agreement. If I am not... and I am not...then it will take him even longer.
My H, like yours, was a dedicated father and worker. About 2 years ago he started skipping work, leaving earlier and earlier and now he is at the point where he no longer cares about anyone or anything exept OW.
I know there is something wrong with him and out of respect and love for our M vows I am willing to put up with this for better or for worse. Of course I am protecting myself by abiding to a strict plan B.
You must feel deep inside that your H will return to sanity at some point...otherwise you would have given up...
blessing

I know some MBers do not believe in MLC but I believe my XH is the poster child for that. He was having work issues on a major project and turning 50. Everything started to unravel.

I do not have a date when I will be ready to throw in the towel. Right now I believe this is where I am supposed to be. We moved across the country 3.5 years ago after living in my hometown all of my life. 2 years later XH walks out and D16 and myself do no have any family here. Not sure where I belong but D16 still has another 1.5 of school so that decision will be made then.

It is difficult to stay in Plan B because of the work environment. In January I am running an all day meeting that both XH and PP must attend. Hopefully they will call in sick. I will make some goals and boundaries for myself that day.

I believe that XH will come home one day. This is the only place that I can state this without people judging me. Looking at the statistics on this site and the type of person PP is she will show her true self. I have heard from many coworkers how badly she treated her X-BF of 4 years in public and the heavy drinking by both of them will take its toll.

Does this mean that I am hanging around putting my life on hold? No -- work on yourself, try and challenge yourself. If XH showed up on my doorstep tomorrow I would not be ready for him to come home. I have my own goals and changes I need to do for myself. I am rebuilding my own self confidence and self esteem and work on being a Goddess.

Wish I lived in a country where it takes up to 4 years for a D. In my state you can be divorced in as little as 30 days with no waiting period. Too easy.

Yes, we have that thank to the Pope, it used to be 5 years, then the catholics had to give in to what reality was. We did not have divorce till 1970.
That said (I am not catholic)I just think some people have traumas from the past that they never dealt with and that re-surface with a vengeance in midlife.
Those traumas coupled with aging = mid life crisis and they lead to an A.
My H was abandoned by his un-married and young parent as an infant. He was told that his dad demanded his mom to have an abortion...but she did not and resorted to an alternative solution...
To this day this episode in his life still hunts him...plus he is 50 and knows that his youth is gone and that he will be good looking only for a handful of years till old age sets in....
I love my h and have compassion for him...but I still do not get why he does not go into IC.
I wish I could help him, but I really can't. So I totally cut any contact with him to keep my sanity.
OW will help him.
blessing

Hope,
I will look up gabzzz thread.
Yes, nothing justifies the A, and Yes, my H has a huge sense of entitlement. He thinks he needs to be happy,that son is 19 and can take care of himself, that I am strong and smart and will get over this...his parents live far away and never really call and same for his siblings....so here you go. He has no clue of the damage.
OW..? I am not sure....if she is so destructive why indulge in her arms? maybe she will help in term of driving them to insanity where they finally have to face the one person they can't run away from or cheat on....themselves!
blessings

Atena-

My xWH was the same way. He was willing to give up a 36 year marriage, his family including new grandchild, and our retirement savings to be with someone he picked up in a bar. OW has been D'd a few times, filed bankruptcy a few times, has a gambling problem which keeps her living in near poverty. My WH is the cash cow sent from heaven. Go figure. When the high wears off they got nothin.

Really..I can't believe it...the more I read on this forum the more I see the reality of OP...the lowest, poorest choices possible. It is mind boggling. You H with a gambler, broke and multiple Ded person...who is only intersted in $$$.
What a mess, after 36 years of M!
Nothing is certain in life, nothing.
Bless

It's been said here several times since I've come on board, that WS always "trade down." It's something to do with the idea that their new "love interest" validates their own sense of superiority, or something to that affect.

Yes Fred, you are right. I am a university professor, speak 4 languages, have 3 university degrees and I am attractive.
OW has a high school diploma, is unemployed, is D and her 2 kids: one swears and say bad words the other is a little lolita and is very sexually forward. She is 15 years younger than H and has large breasts..and has a pacemaker.
I do not know what to think fred..I love my h....no matter what.
blessing

Wow, atena, you've got me by several degrees and several languages!

I have an MBA and speak two languages. I've lived in four continents and studied abroad. If OM has a college degree I'll be quite surprised. He does "shift work" at a tech company in the area. I've had several people tell me they think he looks like a "goof."

In all fairness, I'm not a prize in the looks department. But I'm in good shape, still have most of my hair (and only a bit of it is gray) and according to RealAge I'm 44 -- the same chronological age as OM.

And to complete the picture, WW is a small, 5'4" (suicide) blond, with shapely curves (not all natural) and is two years shy of a bachelors degree. At 48 and her career in shambles (she's seeking employment as a receptionist, I've heard), chances are she'll never get that degree.

Someone (Zelmo?) suggested to me that one of her "justifications" for having an A was her feeling of inadequacy when she compared her accomplishments to mine. I do recall several times when she would ask me to explain a word I had used, as I enjoy language and possess a voluminous vocabulary...

Yes, Fred, my felt a little inferior even if I was very careful not to overdue it, but after all I am knowledgeable in my field but he still wanted to have the last word about it. H is also educated and has higher degrees, plus he is seriously good looking...so i do not know what got into him.
With her he feels like a king. He is a computer expert and she thought chips only came out of a bag and never knew computers had them...she is really thick...does not know what an email is but would text message my H saying: I want to make love to you....lets count all the stars in the sky.
he needs that sort of romantic stuff. Who doesn't?

The texts between my WW and OM were much cruder. At least the ones I saw. He also had her running errands for him ("bring me a coffee with extra shots when you come over...")

When your world gets turned upside down, they aren't kidding!

Oh yes they had pretty low stuff in there especially the one referring to me not being home and she being free to come up and you know....
It is the way it is. It will last and then they will move to the next OP...

I think my exWW is in the running too. She is 34, 5'2", 105#. College degree, very pretty. Her OM is 51, has not had a job in 10 years, has a bench warrant for unpaid child support, was arrested a month after D-Day for pushing around his 75 year old father, plead guilty to that, does not own a car, does not have a dime to his name, has 3 DUI's on his record, and has no teeth!

Did I mention he's also her second cousin?

Me? 34, MBA, worked for a pharma company for the last 10 years. We have known each other since 6th grade.

I look back now on my "addiction" to the OP and cringe with embarrassment and shame. I was totally addicted and foggy. To what, I ask myself now. When reality sets in, it's amazing how stupid the "addiction" looks.

FWIW I didn't trade down, yeah, I know that sounds like some sort of excuse but I had my A with the guy I was going to marry (not engaged). He also didn't trade down.

Surely FOM was a trade down compared to your H?

You had your A with a man who was happy to betray his wife and kids. That is trading down, I should think.

You are absolutely right SC. And by the same token he did trade down with me because I betrayed my H and children.

I don't think that's what people mean though. From what I've read through many years here I've taken that people mean "unattractive, blue collar, stupid etc etc". It's kinda funny (not ha ha) someone on my FB page I met through SI said "you are far too NICE to have had an A." But there you are, I did.

My XH's OW is a chain smokin' house painter who likes to go "tie one on" with JUMBO BUDS. [I actually heard her say this when standing in line behind her in a conv store - "we're gonna go tie one on.."] She chain smokes those little brown cigar/cigarettes and is one of those people who you can tell smoke by looking at their faces, ie: deep lines and white/yellow patches. She drives an old pick up and goes huntin.' I was shocked to my core when I saw her!

She is about 5 years older than me, uneducated, unpolished, and not attractive at all.

So, Mel, you are saying that is what is meant by "trading down".

So, PSUB, would you say she A'd down?

Seriously, I know this storoy but every time I hear it I can't believe it.

She affaired at least 2 miles underground. If it didn't happen to me, I wouldn't believe it either.

Yeah its like that old saying, "Ignore your health and it will go away" If we ignore our deep seated emotional problems our emotional health will go away.

Some people just don't do the work that they need to on themselves when they have a chance. They find other issues to address, Success with Children, Money, Social Status, somebody elses problems, the list is long, and ignore their own need to know themselves first. They feverishly do "good" things and live in denial of things that have hurt them or the scars that have effected their lives and the lives of those around them. Is it any surprize that they will fall into something that is equally contrary to the truth that "They" are their problem?

OPs admiration or willingness to jump in the same boat with them is what draws them together. Just like most addictions, its another way to "fix" themselves while leaving an unrealistic self-image intact. They make their own little private world and the rules that apply are the ones that they deem important. Its like religion, something that man has created, overstepping the rules that God wants us to live by. Which if we are honest with ourselves we all fail to do perfectly at all times even though we agree that the spiritual laws are good. So the new person they hook up with belongs to the new church they create in their new world that picks and chooses which rules are important.
We all are damaged by something in our life, some of us more severely. I think that being honest about who we are and what we are helps us to soul-search. We ARE only human and we are weak units without reaching up and out of ourselves for help. The feeling we get when we are accepted just the way we are is nessesary for us to feel loved. At the same time we are learning every day that we are failble and we need to be forgiven yet again daily. When we have someone in our lives that takes the place of objective truth, love and accepance, (God or higher power of choice) we cling to them because we have fooled ourselves into believing that a human being can replace God.
God gives us grace so we can see how much we need him. We can see that we are screwed up. But instead ppl take that grace and use it to feel entitled with blinders on. Expecting God to bless something totally unrealistic that goes outside of what marriage was supposed to be. Why? Because they deserve it they think, they have suffered enough, Life and God owes them. Vain and selfish.

If they could only see that they are jumping from the frying pan into the fire, that being responsible for thier actions towards others is the reason we make our vows before God, (or replace with higher power), because we will need to continue seeking help as time goes on. Marriage was designed for us to grow individually as well as together and life is hard sometimes. God will bless those who face problems head on and curses those who run away. Its just a fact of life. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself", (Winston Churchill or FDR?).

What causes ppl to hide thier heads in the sand ad refuse to be helped? Why can't they admit they drop thier pride or admit they are human and subject to everything all other humans are? I wish I knew. I would bottle the cure and make a million. But its good to know that as long as we remain in truth we will have a sound mind. That is more important to my conscience, and my relationship with others.

Some might consider that a step up from the likes of me!

I have a GED and no colledge. But like Gumps mama says, "stupid is as stupid does" lol.

Time for me to look into school now. allways wanted to experiance colledge.

Wow, PSUBIKER, that pretty well takes the cake. Second cousins!

My WW OP just got arrested for DUI last week. Found his mug shot online which gave me a smile. First time I've seen a photo of him. Not a bad looking guy, but has a real hard edge to him, like you see in most alcoholics.

I think often people affair down is because they are trying to rid their life of responsibility. If you hook up with some looser then you don't have to worry about being a responsible adult. It's a way of rebelling against expectations.

Yeah, I agree with that Nexus6....my WH said he just didnt want to be married anymore....

Of course people affair down. Decent, self-respecting men and women don't get involved with someone else's spouse. You've got to find trash to do that.
Mulan

Trash, indeed.

The piece of Pond Scum that my FWW wound up with lied to everyone about his marital status. He proclaimed far and wide that he had gotten a D. Everyone believed him, because he was living with his girlfriend at the time. I even believed him.

And when I did the detective work and found out that he really WAS married and contacted his wife and she quoted his gaslighting to me (and obviously believed what she had been told), that ended any WD symptoms on her end.

When I asked her if she would have gotten involved with him had she known he was married, her reaction was immediate and visceral, the kind you can't fake. In fact, she shuddered a little bit and said "H no. Of course not!" She also had the grace to stop, laugh a little, and say "I know that sounds odd, but I couldn't do that."

That DOES sound funny when I write it out, but I got what she meant, and that was another point in her favor.

Well said, Mulan.

What about the younger model (especially Frank Pittman's description the dumsel in distress).My OW was 15 years younger than my H and 10 yrs younger than me.A desperate way to to return to the careless rapture of youth. It is cheating and self deception at many levels

"Just like most addictions, its another way to "fix" themselves while leaving an unrealistic self-image intact."

A very good description of narcissistic mindset

Even if they don't go for someone actually younger, the OP will always be immature. The waywards need to grow up and accept the adult responsibilities of life, like commitment and dealing directly with ones emotions. Instead they think they can just leave it all behind with someone new.

This section from the book Rebuilding pretty well sums up the wayward mindset. My WW said some of the quotes from this chapter to me almost verbatim. Instead of growing up inside the relationship they choose to blame their husband or wife for their unhappiness and look for someone who validates their irresponsibility. So sad.

If you want to remain a party-nut, in my opinion, don't get married. Do a George Clooney.

Seriously--party all you want. UNTIL you get married. Then you forfeit the right to return to youth when you bragged about such things to college buddies.

Those years are over, etc, etc. I'd love to say so much to waywards blaming the MLC...

The affairing down, the immaturity, the Rebuilding article -- all I can relate to.

And getting it all out of your system BEFORE M -- agreed.

And MLC -- NOW my WH wants to party like a rock star after 24 years of marriage and 3 teenagers.

He's definitely rebelling. And I think he went so far off the deep end since he KNEW I'd stay the same... that I'd hold down the fort -- take care of the kids, the house, the dog. If I had been an irresponsible spouse, then perhaps he would not have left.

So I'm to blame for being the "parent"? Kind of unfair. We BOTH acted like parents -- RESPONSIBLE adults -- until he decided to rebel.

And he didn't take me along to rebel WITH -- he rebelled AGAINST me. Like I'm to blame for him having a wife of 24 years, and 3 kids, and a house, and bills, and a responsible job.

He's acting VERY inmature as he rebells and, as the article says, it doesn't help if I point this out. So him and OW taking pictures of their privates and posting to each other is a form of teen-like rebellion.

As long as the immature OP goes along with the rebellion, then there's no chance WS will glance a look at their former self in the mirror. For that to happen, something MAJOR seems to have to happen to jar the wayward back to reality.

OP leaves? Financial loss? Divorce? KARMA BUS..... Because it seems that rebels want to be rebels until someone tells them -- FORCES THEM -- to grow up.

Great quote!
My H mantra was: do not tell me what to do. I will do what I want and when I want.
Does he think he is Mick Jagger?
Sure does not have his cash!

If he thinks he's Mick Jagger, you should just tell him that "You can't always get what you want!!"

The addiction IS powerful...it over rides everything--and I do mean everything... I don't know why but, it does.

That's exactly why it's considered an addiction. An addiction becomes not only the priority in the addict's life, it becomes the only thing in the addict's life.

Google "Criteria for Dependence" and see what I mean. There are seven, according to the DSM-IV. Any three are sufficient for a diagnosis of addiction.

And I kind of seem to notice that all the BS' on here are very responsible caring and loving...and if they have children exceptional parents....and that may be more of a reason why they left and a lot of them seem to not care about their kids....we BS' are very responsible and WS know that and know that their children will be well taken care of.

All the more reason to ditch their responsibilities...we will take care of it. While they go and have fun.

Funny, my WW said the same thing. During plan A, right after she had almost agreed to come back home she sent me this angry email about how "The likes of me and her sister shouldn't be telling her what and when to do things." (her sister was very much against her A). Right after that the OM moved in with her.

So far after leaving she's entered into a fake marriage with the OM two weeks after meeting him, managed to get fired from her job and of course the OM is an irresponsible, broke, ex-felon, drunk driving, partying, alcoholic, hipster. Amazing how almost all the waywards follow the same pattern.

What is it in their life history that causes this kind of behavior? My WW's parents both died when she was in her early twenties leaving her with a lot of responsibility at a young age. I think she just never got the chance to rebel and grow up in a normal way and is acting it all out now.

Affair down?

Well some waywards do all they can to destroy thier BS so then when they are in the gutter, they can call the OP a step up.

Its to bad that BS's don't deal with problems and take the blame for so long.

Thank God for this place

I agree. Isn't it great though that when this happens and the BS chooses a personal recovery for themselves, it then has the opposite affect.....it becomes obvious what a vile human being the OP is? I believe in time that happens. The WS and OP aren't doing anything to fix themselves and after they've wallowed in their ugly vile A for a while, it will show. Oh it will show!!! It makes me almost giddy to think about it! Sorry, I guess I'm feeling punchy today My WH's AP is a very messed up person. Even WH said so. So he sees it too. What I represent and what OW represents is as different as the ocean is wide. My MIL said this to me after I exposed the A:

"And this woman is not worth what he is giving up and I swear, she will appear to him like a black vision of unhappiness and ruin before long. He will lose respect for her because of what she is doing to her own family and she has two children who wonder where their Mommy is. She must be a complete loser. He will realize that when the glow wears off and life becomes real. She will be the vision of unhappiness to him, and remind him every day of all the people he has hurt."

I TOTALLY agree with this!

PSUBIKER, holy cow about your XW's OM?!?

My H's addiction to his OW was pretty severe. While he was in the thick of it, he was driving me and my sister somewhere. He didn't say a word the whole trip (he is normally a very chatty laid back guy). He was very moody and blew through a stop sign. When both my sister and I said, be careful!, he argued with us that he hadn't run through any stop sign, when it was plain as day. When we got out of the car, my sister said to me ~ something is very wrong with him.

His addiction to OW still surprises me. She obviously fulfilled his need for admiration ~ the things she cried on his shoulder about was her long list of problems(according to her) including:

her lyme's disease
her krohn's disease
her fiance's messed up XW
her abusive alcoholic father
her abusive fiance
her fiance's cheating

I doubt half of this is true but that's besides the point. My H doesn't really like listening to people ramble on about their problems or drama AT ALL. Even when he was defogged he said this was most of what their conversations about. It still surprises me that he became addicted to this personality type...

ITA with this statement, i have neevr been a fan of the "fog" or "addiction" or whatever you want to call it, it is plain old lust and newness IMHO.

I think a lot of it is escapism too.

Not an addiction? Then how do you explain the crazy completely out of character behavior we see time and again?

I have seen it with my own H, my sister's H and recently while some out of state relatives were here, they told us details about our uncle's wife's A.

They explained that my uncle and his now XW had gotten into a fight over her A a couple years ago and she hit him and he called the police on her. They showed us her mugshot online. Our jaws were on the ground. She looked like she had aged 15 yrs and she just looked kinda crazed...it reminded me of Lisa Nowak's mugshot.

I explain it by S E L F I S H N E S S, nothing more, nothing less.

Me personally would not like the thought that my H is an addict. We all know addicts can fall off the wagon at any time.

Could be, i am not sure....... Just getting away from their hum drum life i guess.........

Escapism, addiction, selfishness - all of it.

Still_Crazy I am aware that I could fall off the wagon, that is why I have EPs in place and that is why NC means NC for life!

A very short list of the criteria for dependency (addiction) according to the Physicians' Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, 4th Edition (DSM-IV):

• Tolerance
• Withdrawal
• Consuming larger quantities than intended
• Unable in past attempts to cut back or quit
• Impairment
• Time spent obtaining
• Continued usage despite knowledge of harm (breaking one's own rules)

Any three constitute a diagnosis of addiction.

Lust, yes...but then how do you explain it when they end up M the OP and stay with her for years.

Based on the criteria Fred listed I can honestly say that all of the above figured, therfore I must have been addicted.

I know that EPs and NC must be in place, what i am saying is that the thought of my H being "addicting" to the OW hurts me more than to think it was just selfishness or lust or the time in his life or whatever.

And i do not believe it was an addiction at all, i think it was just the lust and the newness of the "relationship" just as we experienced when we started dating, it continued because of selfishness. IMHO

Selfishness is involved in an A obviously but it doesn't explain some of the behavior.

My H is absolutely crazy in love with our son. when we are all home together, they are usually side by side, has always been this way. During his A he seemed to forget all about our family and didn't seem to care about our son very much. He was everyday constantly looking for excuses to run out for errands, etc., so he could call/text OW. It was so strange.

I have no idea how to understand this behavior other than the theory that he was addicted...

Did you not feel this way when you first met your H or some other boyfriend when you first began dating?

Do you think you were "addicted"?

It is lust and newness and then you add that is "forbidden" and it heightens things even more. IMHO it is simply lust and selfishness.

I can't imagine another way to describe my WXH's behavior other than addiction. In addition to ripping apart our family and all the standard wayward crap, he's still with his OW who is a certifiable psychopath (she's run over her xH with her truck, been charged and convicted, and is currently filing frivilous lawsuits all over the place that are probalby costing them a fortune). There's no way he can't see it and there's no way it doesn't affect his daily life. Now it could be that he's sticking with her now out of pride and that he's afraid of the "I told you so" speeches he's bound to hear. But he didn't get to that point without being hooked to start with.

Yes, It is an addiction in my opinion. An addiction is a behavior used to cover up pain. Instead of feeling the pain we cover it up with alcohol, drugs, food and yes...people.
Our H have no control over their urge to be with and contact OP.
When my H came back from his 2 week vacation with OW he was like a crazed lunatic. He was texting all the time,he was sighing, he looked lost...he looked as if he had to inject himself a substance in order to calm down. This extreme behavior prompted me to finally snoop and read his text messages. Sure enough there was an OW.!
I swear OW acted on him as heroin would for a drug addict.
All in all...their A with OW is not healthy, is not "normal". It is beyond explanation...and it can't be sustained for long by a normally functioning brain.
Like any addiction...the addict feels good when the substance or person is available, but inevitably it comes a point when the drug no longer works or higher doses are needed. This works with heroin as you can inject yourself more ....but it will eventually kill you.
It does not work with OP because their appeal simply dies off. So at that point either the A ends or WS is too proud to let OP go and admit to the world he was wrong...so he continues the misery of the A and leads a miserable life of regret. Basically welcome to h*ll.
blessing

Your H was exhibiting the criteria of impairment, also known as "Giving up or reducing important social, occupational, or recreational activities." Of the seven criteria, only two are physical: (increased) tolerance and withdrawal. The rest are pyschological, known collectively as "Loss of Control."

Given that both my WW and I have a background of alcohol addiction, and seeing as how my WW has turned her back on all of the principles and beliefs she espoused, her current behavior suggests to me that she is once again in the throes of addiction.

Were it not so, I wouldn't have found my way here. SAA states on page 56 that affairs are addictions. Had this realization not come to me, I would have simply pushed WW away and been endlessly angry and resentful about her behavior. And while I hope for recovery, I'm not overly positive, since addicts are harder to treat than "just plain folks" who get addicted to affairs.

No, it is not the same thing as when we were in love with our first boyfriend. We did not break a family or hurt our kids by doing that. We were engaging with another person who was not married and who was free to see us and be with us.
We could make healthy plans for the future with him as we were not hurting other people to whom we were bound by vows.
An addiction is a behaviour that can't be controlled. The substance we need drives our every decision.
Maybe I depended too much on my first boyfriend, but I was not addicted to him. I was also 18 and had many hormones going crazy.
blessing

Lets not forget the luxury of denial. which in my opinion is the worse enemy.

I call it a luxery because they by the idea that it will be better when they run away.

The temptation to give up and start over is great when ppl have a troubled marriage.

Its to bad we all don't see thru the fairytale thats sold to us when we get married. Its work and a garden that needs to be tended to every day. It can produce beautiful fruit if its tended. It will sprout weeds if we let them grow.

There is so much temptation in who we are and we need to recognize it before it becomes a way out of being responsible and accountable. The potential is in all of us.
Some of us succumb to it, some of us walk the edge of the dangerous cliff, some of us dismiss it because we know what it is leading to.

Everyone is different and relationships between people can have many bumps in the road. In the end its what you do when you have a wreck that counts. Not that you are a bad driver.

Truth is we need to learn how to drive and the brave ones go back to school and stay in school.

The proud ones fall over and over.

In this society and what we all see every day that causes us to compare what wehave with what "They" have. its allways going to be a battle I think

I thought the following paragraph might be of interest to those curious about this thread:

The pleasure model proposed by professor Nils Bejerot. Addiction "is an emotional fixation (sentiment) acquired through learning, which intermittently or continually expresses itself in purposeful, stereotyped behavior with the character and force of a natural drive, aiming at a specific pleasure or the avoidance of a specific discomfort." "The pleasure mechanism may be stimulated in a number of ways and give rise to a strong fixation on repetitive behavior. Stimulation with drugs is only one of many ways, but one of the simplest, strongest,and often also the most destructive" "If the pleasure stimulation becomes so strong that it captivates an individual with the compulsion and force characteristic of natural drives, then there exists...an addiction (emphasis mine)" The pleasure model is used as one of the reason for zero tolerance for use of illicit drugs.

There is a chemical basis for the addiction of an A. It's the Phenylethylamine molecule released during the early stages of a relationship that acts much like a natural amphetamine and is responsible for the infatuation stage of a love. Unfortunately I think what happens is that wayward have some other emotional baggage that makes them susceptible to addiction to Phenylethylamine. They crave that "infatuation" sensation and will destroy their lives and the lives of others to get it, much like a drug addict.

In WW's case and probably in the case of many other waywards they have a aversion to dealing with painful emotions such as anger, loss, boredom or disapproval and use their affair as a way to "get high" on infatuation and numb those emotions. When the infatuation peters out they either recover or cling to the affair out of shame and fear. In many ways I don't think anything about the OP really matters, it's just the feeling they get being infatuated with someone.

My WH father was battling cancer and was losing and I was also in a depression....my WH definitly bottles his emotions up, always had....he was so close to his father and wasnt even seeing him when he was dying. He was instead with OW, all the time...

My WH sounds like the perfect example of an aversion to dealing with his painful emotions...he didnt even cry when his dad died, no emotion. It has to come out in some way because I know that he loved his father more than anything.

There may be a chemical released however i belive that it is just as you stated "it is released in the early stages of a relationship".

When we first met our spouses we had that same chemical relased and we "craved" being with them all the time and even though we did not break up a family (or two) or any of the other nasty vulgar things that go with adultery, i am sure that most of us were selfish in our own way during that "new" phase of our relationship with our spouse.

Like we did not spend as much time with family or friends and we would find ways to see that person or make up excuses to possibly run into them, or call them all the time. We all did i am sure only we did it in a "relationship" that we could have and did not have to keep secret and did not tear apart anyone else's world for it to happen.

So i agree with nexus in that it is simply the "infatuation" feeling that makes them do all the stupid stuff they do when they are having an A. And they usually either snap out of it and realize what the heck they have done or they don't until it is too late and then they hang on for appearances IMHO anyway. However i do not believe it is an "addiction" or "fog".

Why can't it be both? Not everyone who drinks alcohol becomes an alcoholic, but those who are predisposed to it either genetically or through socialization are unable to pull back once the addiction takes hold.

There was once a supposition that if you put 100 people in a room and gave them a shot of heroin every day, that after 90 days you'd have 100 heroin addicts. But if you put 100 people in a room and gave them several drinks of alcohol every day, at the end of 90 days you'd have only ten alcoholics.

And those ten would think they were just like the other 90.

The point is that "infatuation," like alcohol, affects certain people in one way and others another. I think this is why Dr. Harley treats infidelity just like addiction: the treatment begins with complete abstinence -- for life -- from the addictive object (the OP). We've also heard about the withdrawal stage, which is also one of the DSM-IV criteria for addiction.

Addiction is a funny thing. People know that heroin is addictive, but some think alcoholism is simply a matter of "weak willpower." Yet people can and do die from alcoholic withdrawal, but no such peril exists for heroin withdrawal. Such is our warped societal view.

The American Psychiatric Association has not defined a criteria for "Affairism," but considering how on-target Dr. H. seems to be with his analysis, I think that's the only thing missing.

Of course, this is merely a mental exercise. Whether or not it is an addiction in the APA sense, the affects of it are as far-flung and devastating as any drug- or alcohol-related problem.

I tend to lean toward Dr. Harley's theory. He is the expert after all and has seen so many more cases than we have here on the board. I just think some WS's are affected differently than others but I think they all are affected by NC and withdrawal at some level. I also think it has a lot to do with the WS's level of insecurity or low self esteem.

Well perhaps it my sitch then because my H did not go through withdrawal from his OP, nor did he have NC for a while after because they worked together.

He turned her in to HR for "sexual harrassment" after D-day when she still would not leave him alone and she then quit and tried to contact him later which he told me about and that was the last time either of us have heard from her.

And perhaps it is addictive personalities, however my opinion will remain the same in that i do not think it is an "addiction" or "fog", it is "infatuation", "lust", "newness", "secrecy" and "selfishness".

Perhaps this describes your own experience, but it doesn't describe the typical. You have only been exposed to your own husband, whereas Dr Harley is a psychologist who has been exposed to thousands. . And perhaps your husband wasn't addicted at all, but Dr Harley accurately describes most as an addiction characterized by a brain fog. Waywards who post here will attest to Dr Harley's depiction.

If you want to get a good understanding of what he means, go rent the movie Unfaithful with Richard Gere and Diane Lane. That is the best depiction of the addictiveness of an affair I have ever seen.

On the "addiction" of an affair, this is what Dr. Harley had to say:


Dr. Harley has addressed the possibility certain affairs might not be addictions, but even if it not, the cure to restore marital compatibility is the same. So whether or not it's an addiction, treat it like one and follow his program to restore love to the relationship.

Whether or not an affair is truly an "addiction", treating it as one is extremely useful.

Thanks for posting this, BB. Another important take away from this is Dr. Harley's experience with alcoholics. He is one of the few that recognizes the addictive nature of affairs because of his background with chemical addicts. I believe this is what gives him a unique advantage over other psychologists, marriage counselors.

Alcoholics on this board also recognize these very same traits in other WS's. Most have the classic traits of an alcoholic.

Still_Crazy I don't think your situation is exactly the same as most here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your WH still flirting with women and isn't that one of the reasons you are posting on the divorced board? I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but you admit that NC didn't happen immediately with the A that you discovered, so he never had to go through withdrawal from that. And if he's still flirty, he's still getting his fix.

In my WW's case she has an addictive personality already and has become an alchololic on top of the A. During Plan A she seemed enthused about coming home until I would bring up the need for her to separate from the OP. Then she would get a look on her face like you just grabbed a bottle of booze from a wino. She was completely willing to give up all her friends and family to get that fix. The brain fog is real and simply means that like and addict no logic or reason can get through to the WS.

Addiction Vs Dependence

I used to work in a chronic pain clinic where I treated people who were physically dependent on a chemical (drug).
Calling such people "addicts" is actually a misnomer.
But calling such people "dependents" makes it sound like I'm putting them on my tax returns.

Quote

the important distinction between physical dependence and uncontrolled psychological craving (addiction).

Wow, can I relate to that, Nexus. My WW was nine years "sober" in A.A. before she began her A (also with someone in A.A.). Her slide down was quick and hurtful to see. We both lost weight on the "my wife is having an affair" diet, but she started smoking. She's pushed away her kids, and the only "friends" she has now are the newcomer women in A.A. she "sponsors," and some of her Facebook friends she chats with occasionally (I had to block one today, as I saw she had commented on this person's status. I don't want to read anything she has to say). This woman has truly been taken over by an alien. Question is: Is my wife still in there, somewhere?

You are wrong in that he did not have NC, he was not at work for 4 1/2 months due to being in the hospital 2 weeks after D-day, when he went back to work the OW still worked there and that is when he turned her in for "sexual harrassment" because she was still pursuing him and then she quit. He later left that company as well.

And him and i differ on opinions as to whether he is "flirting" or not so i guess if you want to say that is why i am posting on the divorce board then i guess you are correct. However he was "flirty" prior to his A and he has not changed that behavior is actually why i am posting on the divorce board.

Drgnfly did give me some useful information over there in that she and Skald had similar issues and Skald always said he was not "flirty" as well because there was no "intent". After reading what she wrote it fits my H to a tee and i actually used it in a conversation with him and he seemed to understand why i have always thought he was "flirting" when he did not think he was at all.

So maybe my sitch is not the same as most and maybe i am basing my responses on my H and my H alone however when i read these other threads and hear people say the same things over and over again i can't help but think that all WSs are eerily similar therefore it would seem they ARE like my sitch i dunno........

I believe most on this BB would agree that anything the BS feels is cheating or unfaithful, IS, regardless of whether the WS thinks so or not. It's part of extraordinary precautions which a WS should have in place as a condition of recovery. Your WH has refused to quit flirting. Why? Especially if there is no "intent" to it! If there's no intent, there's no purpose. If there's no purpose, there's no point. If there's no point, why bother??? You see where this is going don't you? Yes, there is a point and a purpose, just nothing he's willing to share with you because - guess what - he is still being unfaithful!!! SC - do you still not see the addictive nature of this behavoir?

Dr. Harley defines infidelity as "a romantic relationship outside of marriage". "Romantic" has one definition of "displaying or expressing love or strong affection." Flirting is a form of affection. He is initiating affairs with all these women by flirting with them. The fact that the other women don't reciprocate does not mean he hasn't extended the offer.

I agree that it should not matter what he thinks and only what i think about his "flirting" and hence the reason i am posting in the divorce column.

I do not however believe he is being "unfaithful" as you put it and I still do not see it as an "addiction".

SC, did you read Barnboy's response above? In case you didn't, here it is again. He explains it much better than I do.

Barnboy you actually have it backwards. The women actually "flirt" with him and then he does nothing to stop it. He does not EVER start it and that is why he always says there is no intent therefore it is not "flirting" he is simply being friendly.

Tabby did you read my response to Barnboy?

And this is different, how?

SC, I work in an old boys club and get flirted with ALL THE TIME. One does not have to be unfriendly to ward off flirting.

I beleive that DR.Harley uses the simple term "addict" because it best describes the WS. The details don't matter of what chemical causes the problem or what behavior/circumstance.
What is needed is the realization of the effect As have on marriages is the same as Drug addictions have on average ppl.

If someone can't see past the feeling/chemical high of the affair then the marriage will struggle to get back to the place it needs to be.

So addiction to an outside stimulation of pleasure that is directly opposed to marriage principals is the enemy, Chemical and situational/circumstansial as it may be it is just a detail of the problem

I guess i am not sure what you mean by this Tabby. I do not disagree with you in that it should not matter if it bothers me.

What i disagree about is that it is an "addiction", i just do not believe that. I think that most people on here do not want to look at an A for what it really is (and it is because it hurts so much i am sure) and that is a "relationship".

IMHO whether any of us like it or not our WSs had a "relationship" with someone other than us while we were married and they acted in that "relationship" how they would in any other "relationship". The fact that they are hurting other people in the process is just "selfishness" and was no concern of theirs at the time just like ANY "relationship".

SC, have you read Drinking: A Love Story, by Carolyn Knapp?

Many alcoholics say that they first felt like they were "losing their best friend" when they gave up drinking.

Food is my best friend

I really just wanted some way to use that lovey dovey icon...I dont think I can use it any other way.

I have not Fred. And i am sure that many do say that i do not doubt you for a minute.

You are talking about an alcoholic though not an affair.

And like i have stated many times on this thread, we were all the same way in the beginning of our relationships with our spouses too.

I know that i quit hanging out with my friends and doing as much for my parents and calling off work if he did not have to work that day, these are all things that were "selfish" at the time, just because it was not in an adulterous relationship was i too an "addict" for my future spouse?

That is all i am saying is that if it is an "addiction" then ALL "realtionships" and "infatuations" are an "addiction".

Since the topic turned to flirting, here is an MB thread titled "Mulan's Long Rant Against Flirting" which might be of interest to some:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1980148&page=1

And yes, I do think sex/admiration can absolutely be an addiction. Now, I don't think a person starts out being a sex addict any more than an alcoholic starts out being an alcoholic. If the predisposition is there, and the person allows themselves to cross the line with the first drink or the first illicit contact - *that's* when the addiction kicks in and that's when the addictive behaviour starts.

And no, I don't agree that an affair is "just like any other relationship." The people in it know before it starts that it is illegitimate and must be hidden and that most would consider it wrong. That's the polar opposite of "any other relationship" and causes completely different behaviour in the participants. Lies, secrecy, and gaslighting are not part of any normal relationship, but come in full force when addictive behaviour is in play (with any substance or behaviour).

I know that people don't want to excuse horrible, selfish, destructive behaviour by letting the perps hide behind "Ooh, I'm an addict, it's not my fault, I just couldn't help myself."

That's NOT what we are saying.

Addiction is not an excuse. It's an explanation.

Excuses are dead ends. But if you have an explanation, you can deal with the problem because you understand it and *sometimes* bring about significant change.

Nothing but addiction (in his case, to sex/attention/admiration) could have made by WXH ignore his own dearly beloved son - but that's what he's doing. It has nothing to do with me because I have not interfered in their relationship in any way and have had zero contact with XWH for some 18 months.

People on heroin or meth behave the very same way - they dump EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY that interferes with their heroin or meth. Substitute "OP" for "heroin or meth", and do you not have the behaviour of a WS perfectly described?
Mulan

I see that I've started trying to persuade you on something that you don't want to be persuaded to, and I apologize. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I to mine.

I guess what I was trying to say is that almost everyone gets some effect from drinking alcohol. But not everyone becomes an alcoholic. I think that the chemical releases that have been measured are indeed felt by everyone. Just not everyone has the propensity to addiction. Perhaps that's why some people can resist the "urge" to become entangled in affairs while others can't. Sure, it may be a weakness, or some bio/psychological deficiency. The result is still the same, and on that I think we both agree!

Yes you are correct in that we both can agree that the results are the same .......

Mulan i don't see it as an explanation i see it as an excuse as well. And it makes me more confused and sickened to think my H is an "addict" than to think that he was just being "selfish", but that is just me......

This describes what H is doing right now. Back to teenage years. A mature relationship does not take this shape and form. He took several days off work to be with her, he has cut contact with everyone, he is crazed without her, he plans his day around her.
I used to be like that at 16 maybe till 23. When I met H I did not cut ties with parents and was not crazed or withdrawn if he was not there.
A as well as unhealthy relationships are addictions.
H has no control over the fact that he needs OW. He has done crazy things to be with her, namely abandon his family, risk to be seen by son while having A with her, shamed in the workplace (by me who exposed to everybody..)
Now....I suspect he is addicted to the secrecy and the thrill he derives from it. The A is exposed. If my theory is correct it should end by him cheating on her with yet an OW.
I will never quite know as I am in plan b, but maybe news will travel.
blessing

Whatever it's called they act like a COMPLETE A$$.

Well, H is saying that I do not want to talk to him and if he wants to he needs to use a IM. He is spinning it so I look bad. But fortunately when I exposed everybody understood that it is normal for me not to want to have any contact. He is also spinning that I kicked him out of the house and that he would have moved out anyway but that I am a very angry person and that is what he had to deal with all the M. I made him so unhappy he really could no longer bear it.
I know I should not be listening to this stuff while in plan be, but my SIL had to let me know because she thinks this is what he will tell son when he comes for xmas
blessing

My WH acted the same way Atena.....and that is exactly what he is acting like, a teenager....I mean when you are an adult you are not supposed to act like this anymore....I would think that you could control yourself....They ditch their responsibilities and family to be with OP. I am sorry but a normal adult who is dating does not ditch their responsibilities, they might dream about it, but being an adult means dealing with your responsibilities....teenagers are the ones who escape them, teenagers are supposed to be selfish, that is the way their brain works.

I remember when I was a teenager, I would not leave the house until I looked perfect, not one hair out of place...and that hair took me a good hour to do....now with more responsibilities and less sefishness, I have my routing down to half an hour tops....and it can be five minutes, because I now can leave the house if my hair is not perfect and not have to rewash it and start over.

This is when you are supposed to be selfish, not when you are married with children and responsibilities....I mean it takes some self control I guess Waywards dont have any.

My H used to say that life is too short for him to be worried about everybody else. He just needs no self help books, not enlightenement. He said I want to have fun and be with someone fun.
A teenager. But still, I miss him and wish he would change.
blessings

I know how you feel...I miss my WH too...its really sad and hard.
Especially this time of year...but we will be okay.

I agree with Fred about WS behavior being like a chemical addiction

If the brain and its inner workings, thoughts, judgements, etc. are controlled by chemical balances, If the brain is really this amazing battery that influences every thought, desire, action we take.

Then the best gift we can have in our lives are healthy boundaries.

Mulan said something about how it explains why,(addictive behavior) not that its an excuse. I agree with that.

This is a good discussion. I have been enjoying reading it.

Interesting because I think many would prefer to think of their WS's as addicts (implying that they have an illness) rather than selfish (implying that they have a poor character). In any event, it doesn't really matter. It still is what it is. Just like cancer is cancer - you can say someone died of natural causes, but it's still cancer and it's a horrible illness. The main difference is that if you diagnose the cancer early enough, it can be treated. Similarly, if you diagnose the addiction, it can be treated (assuming in either case the patient wishes treatment).

To me it seems more like a disease or something to think of it as an addiction. I would rather think he had a selfish time in his life than to think that he is "addicted".

But as you said no matter how you look at it adultery sucks all the way around...............

I can understand why you don't want to call it an addiction then. A disease is something we didn't CHOOSE and have no control over. We don't choose cancer and have no control over whether it goes away or not. That is very different from a BEHAVIOR. We choose our behaviors. Adultery is a behavior over which we have full and complete control. A behavior we CHOSE. Just like I CHOSE to drink and smoke. They were CHOICES although I was addicted.

So when I define adultery as an addiction, I am not calling it a "disease." It AIN'T.

I just had a conversation with my grandma about this. We were contrasting how people "were" in the good old days compared with how they "are" now.

The consensus was that all this psycho-babble has done nothing but give us excuses to justify bad behavior. People like to say "things are different now." But what is "things?" Clearly CIRCUMSTANCES are different now. Or at least we think they are.

But every day, each one of us, wakes up and is faced with choices. Sometimes every day choices, sometimes HUGE ones. And every day we make a decision to do right, or do wrong, faced with those choices. How is that different between now and then?

I'll tell you, NOW there is an entire world wide web of things you can download that feeds you all kinds of stuff that tells you how what you choose to do wrong really wasn't your fault.

Do we today stand up for what we believe? No. We stand up for our right to no longer have to apologize and be held accountable. Sheesh.

You are so "judgmental!"

I guess so Mel.

I like people who take responsibility for their mistakes.

I don't know what set me off in this thread. Maybe the talk about it being "an addiction" and "understandable."

Maybe the steps to get from a loving marriage to an affair make sense, in that one can follow them. But to make the stretch that that makes it OK, for that, or any other reason, it just sits in my craw all wrong.

Look at our presidents. They do something wrong in their past and they are off the electable list. Personally, I'd rather have a guy who has made a few mistakes if he has OWNED them afterward. THAT's a real guy.

I don't understand your smiley though. Is that a drama queen? If so, that's me. :-D

Isaiah 1;4-6
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Yeah I think we sometimes ask the wrong person for advice sometimes huh? After all with all the excuses we make we still need to be accountable in the long run to what we have the tools to change. First of all ourselves

A's are horrible but
[quote]maybe the steps to get from a loving marriage to an affair make sense, in that one can follow them. But to make the stretch that that makes it OK, for that, or any other reason, it just sits in my craw all wrong.[\quote]
You do not go from a loving M to and A. There must be some s*t in between.
No one who is truly happy in a M cheats.
Now, these cheaters are unable to verbalize the problems the M might have or to deal with them in a mature way, so they find OP and allow that OP to meet their needs.
Blessings

I am just teasing, NC, I agree with every word you wrote. Our culture has fostered a generation of pansies who can't take accountibility for their wrongdoing. Everything is the fault of our "FOO" or some newly concocted syndrome manufactured to cover our crimes.

the smiley is a drama queen!

p.s. I consider it a compliment to be called JUDGMENTAL and I was complimenting you when I said it. It is an insult, IMO, to be "non-judgemental." People who can't judge right from wrong people our prisons and that is right where they belong.

No offense taken Mel.

Fact is, I LIKE the fact that I WILL call bull$h!t when I see it.

Like my Texas momma says "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch."

I even bought her a license plate for the front of her car with that saying on it. When I asked her if she wanted me to put it on, she said "No, I'll keep it handy just in case I need to smack you with something."

I love your momma! Like I told my 6'4" grown son, "I can still reach your [censored], son!"

Oh I am SO telling mom that one!

She'll be saying that to the grandkids more than "I love you!"

Wait, isn't that how you SAY "I love you" in Texas?

We Texas mommas love our boys!

I allways liked "If ya wanna pee with this big dogs ya gotta lift yur leg hi"