I have heard a few stories of success from the POV of the betrayed - how the WS woke up from the fantasy and returned to rebuild a wonderful loving relationship. I was wondering how much of that is real and how much is perception? It seems to me that the betrayed (at least in some cases) thought everything in the relationship was just fine and dandy BEFORE the affair while the WS apparently had a different perspective. Something was apparently missing.<P>So I guess my question really is for the betrayers out there. How many of you feel you have been successful in rebuilding your marriage? Is it everything you want it to be? Do you believe it will get there? Do you truly feel that deep love for your spouse now? Do you ever think you might stray again?
I can't answer for everyone, but I fell in love with the OM. How do you repair your marriage when you are in love with someone else? I am not with the OM now, but the feelings are still there. People get involved in EA and PA for all kinds of reasons. I think if the betrayer really falls in love with the OP, you are just prolonging the hurt and pain. The betrayer will generally agree to anything in the beginning of discovery because of guilt, but if love is involved you are wasting your time.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<BR><B>I have heard a few stories of success from the POV of the betrayed - how the WS woke up from the fantasy and returned to rebuild a wonderful loving relationship. I was wondering how much of that is real and how much is perception? It seems to me that the betrayed (at least in some cases) thought everything in the relationship was just fine and dandy BEFORE the affair while the WS apparently had a different perspective. Something was apparently missing.<P>So I guess my question really is for the betrayers out there. How many of you feel you have been successful in rebuilding your marriage? Is it everything you want it to be? Do you believe it will get there? Do you truly feel that deep love for your spouse now? Do you ever think you might stray again?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
I agree with the post above. I could not have ever made it work with my ex. Every thought I ever had was of the OM so without the desire it can't happen. If the betrayer is totally in love with the OP even if they try you'll never truly have them.
So how do you tell whether it's a fantasy thing that the betrayer will get over and whether it's true love?<P>Does the betrayer know? To read some of the posts on this board, the betrayer is not in touch with his/her own feelings and he/she will one day 'wake up' and realize the 'truth' - that they AREN'T in love with the OP and that the ARE in love with the spouse.<P>Which is it? How is the betrayer to know what the truth is? Is it real or fantasy? Is the marriage real or fantasy? How does anyone know?
I'd like to hear from betrayers that did get over their OP and went back to their spouse.<P>Response to this would be extremely helpful.<P>Did you feel like you went back to the same situation you strayed from prior to EM or PA with OP?<P>Are you back with your spouse because it's easier to deal with than the guilt and hurt you and your family went through? Did you sacrifice your own happiness for keeping your family together?<P>Now that you've gone back, is it even harder to make the decision to leave the second time because you can't put your family through it all again?<P>I'd like to hear from betrayers that are over their OP.<BR>
TS:<P>There are plenty of stories of marriages that have recovered after an affair. Lonelysoul brings up an obvious point: what happens when you're "in love" with the OM??? How can you repair the marriage.<P>Remember: love is a conditional response to behavior and stimuli. It's not magic, it's not "one-in-a-million", it's not "chemistry".<P>So, when you have an affair, you have two major issues:<P>1. The betrayer is "in love" with someone else, and doesn't really have the motivation to stop.<P>2. The betrayer fell out of love with the betrayed spouse, and the root cause(s) of this need to be addressed by the betrayed spouse.<P>It's pretty obvious that if you can fall in love with an OP, you can fall in love with your spouse (again). Or someone else. You just both need to meet the conditions for love to grow (the four rules for a successful marriage). The issue with rebuilding the marriage is that you have to move past the pain that was caused by the betrayal and the pain of neglect that was in the old marriage. The good side of the rebuilding process is that you're working with "known" behaviors, and that you have a shared past that has enjoyable elements to it.<P>Bonnie could have made it with her ex. He would have needed to demonstrate the right behaviors to her to make her consider it. But he didn't. Lonelysoul: you're basically stuck in withdrawal.<P>My marriage is a good example of the path, although we're not finished. My wife was completely "in love" with her OM (just like most affairs). She married me for all the wrong reasons. Didn't love me a bit. It was an extremely bad situation for her (and as TS states, I was taken by surprise at her feelings, although the marriage was lacking plenty on my side of the equation as well).<P>The first thing I did upon learning about the affair was to start counseling here. Changing my behaviors to become a better husband. It took a long time, and I really didn't see progress (although it was having an effect, according to my wife). So, addressing the "conditions" for love to happen was something that I could do solely by myself.<P>Of course, while it's extremely helpful to do this, it's not enough. The affair has to end. I was "fortunate" (depending on your definition of the word) that my wife became pregnant by the OM. Reality hit the affair. They started fighting. It took a while, but eventually his behaviors were so "uncharacteristic" (right...) that she rethought her direction and ended the affair.<P>But even after that, there was no "magic guilt trip" (damn...
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). She was resentful and angry at the loss of her lover, and the pregnancy added a ton of stress. But by supporting her through this, she learned that she could trust me, and that my old behaviors had really changed.<P>It's been almost 2 years since the affair ended. Our marriage is much, much better in several ways. We're completely honest with each other, and use the POJA all the time. We do things together as a team. We communicate better. We're much happier about the marriage. <P>But... there's no romantic love yet, for my wife. She's getting close at times, but something is keeping her from falling "in love". Some of this has to do with the past history with our marriage, and I'm sure that some of it has to do with the guilt from the affair.<P>But I do believe that we will get there. These things take time, and they can be harder if only one spouse is willing to do the "work" (counseling, etc...), as it is in my case. But if you apply these rules to your marriage, you will rebuild the love.<P>Because it's conditional. Repeat after me: "Love is Conditional". There is a formula that anyone can follow for success in love. Falling in love is a process, and if you know how the process works, and how to apply it, you will have a good marriage.
Thanks K, <P> Needed to hear this again....after reading the other posts I was feeling pretty negative about the whole recovery thing...and you are right it takes time, lots of time.....LU
I am "over" the OM. But marriage is not improved. H has no desire to work on it, at least except for having sex whenever he wants. That is his idea of "working" on it.<P>How is the WS supposed to fix a marriage all by his/her self?!!! There was no "discovery" unless you count the fact that I confessed to him that many times I had been very tempted to have a affair. At that time my EA WAS over. And I have had "warmies" from time to time for several other men over the dismal years of our relationship.<P>He read part of chapter one of His Needs, Her Needs two weeks ago and doesn't have "time" to pick it up again. I never get to see him except during dinner time and if we work out together for an hour when he gets home from work. <P>Last January he quit his verbal and emotional abuse. But by then I was deep into the EA. In March I quit the EA and he quit most of his other LBs, quite unrelated coincidence. <P>He is a workaholic and an alcoholic. We have one child together and I just got pregnant by accident (by H!) [I'm a 43 year old family law attorney, mother of 4 grown up children and a five year old.. Yes, I know better.]<P>How did I get over the OM? Not easy at all. I am very religious and did not want to be an adulterer. Sheer willpower combined with prayers on my behalf. I wasn't strong enough to even pray for myself. His guilt helped.<P>Now I am in mourning for the losses. I do not love my husband. Only if he were to get on the track and join me in working on the marriage would that be likely to happen. Fear that it's only a matter of time, short time most likely, before this happens again.<P>MB (books and website) has no more suggestions, other than come clean and confess so the BS will be motivated to work on it. Didn't work out. <P>But I'm pregnant, needy and stuck. And very lonely. And plenty of nice men out their willing to console me. Help.<P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.
UGGHHH! There's that TIME thing again! Every time I hear "It takes time" I hear the ticking of a clock and it sounds like a time-bomb waiting to go off. A friend of mine told me that time doesn't really exist, that's it's an artifical concept that people use in an effor to structure their lives. I wish I believed that. Maybe I wouldn't feel like time is so much my enemy.<P>K, <P>So after 2 years, your wife still doesn't feel that love for you? I don't think I want to spend that much TIME committed to a maybe. I applaud your efforts. You are a man of incredible love and patience. What if it never happens? I don't want to live my life waiting to feel love for my H. And feeling bad when I don't.
Karenna, <P>If he's not willing to work on it, I'd have to say move on. (I know, it's not the MB way) Especially considering that he's an alcoholic. My 1st H was an alcoholic and I can't see how a marriage can work with someone who's addicted to alcohol. I look at it as an affair with the bottle. The addiction has to end for a marriage to survive.
I've wondered the same thing myself. The question of in recovery who is in the "fantasy". I only ask that because I wonder how someone can be in love with someone else then suddenly be back in love with thier spouse.<P>Yes I realize love is a choice. But how do you make that choice if you have feelings for someone else?<P>I know that MB tech can work. Allen and I were having this discussion the other day. We have the potential to have a wonderful marriage.<P>Well I have the potential to do Lots of things if I put my mind, heart and soul into it. I could decide I want to run a marathon and I can train and practice and run, but hey, I may still come in second or not finish at all.<P>True, I will be in better shape for trying, but just because I have the potential, doesn't mean I can obtain a certain goal.<P>So...I don't have a answer...just another question.<P>I think I fall into truthseekers category. Two year and to not be back in love? Wow, that makes me wonder..how can you say a marriage is better? (not specific to K, just a question)<P>I read about the indifference and anger a betrayed spouse has if a betrayer returns and wonder...so is that just the fantasy wearing off and they see reality and go "hmm what the heck was I fighting for"<P>Another question while we are going against the doctrine here.<P>I read on another post how a betrayer is selfish for putting thier needs first and betraying....Well what is a betrayed spouse doing by wanting the betrayer to stay in the marriage?<P>Are they not just as selfish as the betrayer? They want to be happy, they want the wandering spouse to return. But is that not putting thier needs/wants above thier spouses?<P>just another one of those "hmmmm" questions that I have been wondering about.<P>Cat
Hi Cat,<P>You question<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I only ask that because I wonder how someone can be in love with someone else then suddenly be back in love with thier spouse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't true the other way around. You were in love with the spouse and then went to being in love with OP. Most importantly, these situations don't happen suddenly, do they
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. It took time for your marriage to get to the state that the affair seemed attractive. It took time to fall for OP and it will take time to get back to being in love with spouse.<P>Why is two years worth it you ask? IMHO it has to do with potential rewards. In the case of children, not only do you have a chance to have a marriage like you didn't have before, but you have a chance to avoid putting you children through the gut wrenching issues of divorce and step parents and etc. <P>I suspect that is why couples without children do not reconcile so often. The long term prognosis is only for the spouses to be happy. In your case the long term prognosis is for you, your H, and children to be happy.<P>So maybe two years is not that long? <P>Finally, Cat there is potential and there is realistic potential. Rebuilding marriages is something that realistically is doable. The Harley's have shown that. Even running the marathon is doable, but winning one may not be very realistic.<P>Well that is my $0.02.<P>God Bless,<P>JL
Ahhhh, time for clarification: there are lots of types of love. You can talk about fraternial, agape, eros, ...<P>My wife isn't "romantically" in love with me (completely). This doesn't mean that she doesn't love me---in fact, she demonstrates her love to me in several ways (including working through her issues in our marriage). We have a deep, profound "caring" love between us. We share a love for our children. So all in all, we are successful on all of those fronts. The major issue between us is that lack of "pitter-patter" eros love for my wife, and that is likely centered around an emotional dysfunction for her to get emotionally close to anyone.<P>She fell in love with me. But she got hurt, and fell out of love.<P>She fell in love with the OM. She got hurt, and fell out of love.<P>Is there a wonder why she might be hesitant to fall in love again?? <P>So, my job is to exhibit the behaviors that show her that she won't get burned again getting emotionally close to me. And to give our marriage the best chance to allow those feeling to develop for her, by following the rules of protection, care, honesty, and time. This would have gone much more quickly if my wife would agree to doing joint counseling with someone who could help (in my opinion, a behavioralist like the Harley's), but we'll get there regardless---even if the pace is more leisurly.<P>I'm afraid that most of you have a very immature concept of love. You're unwilling to commit to doing your best. The excuses are many: it'll take too long; it's too hard; my other spouse isn't helping, and I don't want to do it alone...<P>These are just excuses. If you treat your marriage as a lifetime committment, and you are unwilling to accept divorce as an option, you can start to do the work to make the marriage great. Even if you're not "in love", you can build these feelings. You may need help (which is why I highly tout the counseling at MarriageBuilders---and I even had a "tune-up" appointment a couple of weeks ago), but you can do this. You may not like the rules that MarriageBuilder's imposes on recovery, and you may not like having "romantic love" broken down into a bunch of bite-sized behavioral processes---but this stuff works. If both parties agree to work on it, and they have the appropriate guidance, it basically never fails. And even where there's only one partner "schooled" in this set of skills, you will still see great successes.<P>And as an aside: there are plenty of women who would love to be in a marriage with me. Using that as an excuse to quit your marriage is very poor reasoning---there are always other partners lurking about. The major issue is that you own 50% of the responsibility for the state that your marriage is in. You need to take that responsibility, and start learning the skills and behaviors necessary to "fix" the marriage. If it doesn't work on your current marriage---so be it. But if you choose not to learn these skills, you'll be back here in 10 years lamenting the same problems with a new partner---solely because you didn't learn a damn thing from your current marriage. And as exhibited by the even higher divorce rate for second (and later) marriages, it's pretty clear that most people don't learn from their mistakes---they keep repeating them.<P>A note to Karenna: Harley has lots of experience with alcoholics (you should look up the Q&A's on this site concerning alcoholism, if you haven't). The bottom line is that your husband needs to treat the alcohol addiction first, before you can begiin work on the marriage. I would recommend that you begin counseling with Steve or Jenn Harley (888-639-1639) and see if they can help you with a plan to immediately address your problems.
inamess,<P>At last a positive reply from a betrayer! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I was wondering if there were any betrayers out there who felt that they were a success story. <P>I do have one question for you, though. i don't understand something. You said that you are in love with your H, yet the OM is still on your mind and it takes great strength to avoid thinkging of him. Why is that? If you were truly in love with your H, wouldn't thoughts of the OM be pretty much non-existent? I think I would have to still categorize that as potential recovery. On the trailing edge of withdrawal and it's too soon to REALLY tell if yours is a story of success.<P>K,<P>I guess that's my problem. I DO consider divorce to be an option. I question whether I WANT to put the effort in to make it work. But since I have pretty much given myself the time to try (my 1-year promise to stay), I have started to try some of this stuff. We did do a successful POJA type thing once. HE has since done things without discussing them with me first (like invading my safe place in the house with his computer. GRRR). And we are trying to find things to do together, but progress there is very slow. Even when we do things together, the tension in the air just poisons it for us. But I have the year, so maybe in a year's time, things will be different.<P>OK. I just have to accept it. It takes TIME (cringe). <P>I guess with the seeming demise of the marriage of one who I DID consider a success story, I was looking for another to hold up as an example. A success from the betrayer's POV.<P>So far inamess comes the closest. Anyone else have a success story to share?<P>
hey there all
<P>OKay here it goes.<P>I discovered that after I wrote the letter, I felt better and worse. I felt that my senses were returning but I was upset to say good bye to what I felt was a friendship.<P>When I wrote that letter, I was able to focus on what I felt for my H. In the middle ofmy affair, i felt like I was a split personality. one for my H and one for my OM. i didn't know what i felt for either really. <P>Now that there has been absolutely NO CONTACT for 2 weeks, I feel like I am truely able to start falling in love with my S.<P>Now, for me, I never fell in love with OM. I do not believe that you can truely LOVE 2 men at the same time. NOt true love. I din't know that I still loved my H. As a matter of fact I thought I really disliked him. He made me annoyed, mad, angry, angry angry. There wasn't anything that he said that I didn't sneer at.<P>Our relationship has come so far in only 2 weeks. I am completely honest and truthful with him. He askes questions at times that are hard to answer, but I do it because he needs to know. I woke up one day and decided that I had had enought of living two lives. I dearly love my children and they were getting the same treatment as my H. I am a better person than that. So I just made the decision to end what i had going.<P>Now, I must add that my H is quite a guy. He really tries to meet my needs in all ways. <P>I am not saying life is perfect or that I haven't wanted to contact OM again. I did have feelings for Om. I just know that I did not fall in love with OM. Given anymoe time it could have happened.<BR>I just realized that no one could love me like my husband. and love me completelly like my S.<P>My H is worthy of being loved. He is a very good man. good father. <P>This H is not the H I had an affair on. The H i had an affair on was cruel and not worthyof my time energy or effort. <P>He has changed in the last two years, I just was too hung up on Om to see it.<P>He told me yesterday that int he last two weeks I have treated him better thanin the last 5 years.<P>It is totally possible to recapture love with your spouse. IF it is possible to fall in love with someone other than your spouse then it is possible to fall in love with a changed spouse.<P>does any of this make sense? I only got a few hours of sleep, I will be back later to finish!<P>Mercy
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<P>PS. I would say my marriage even in 2 weeks is the best it has been in many years.<P>MY H expresses one issue that is a concern for me and that is he wants to know how he is going to trust me again. He feels that everything that has happened in the last 2 years could be a lie. Some of it is, some of it isn't. <P>The more you trust in God to heal your marriage the quicker it can recover.<P>God Bless,<BR>MErcy
I was a betrayer, but did fall back into love with my husband. At the time I was involved in my affair (it lasted over a year) I felt like I was very much "in love" with the OM, with no feelings for my husband. But when the OM asked me to leave my husband, I couldn't even think of doing that. Trying to recall my mindset at the time now is difficult, because I truly don't understand my behavior. I can say that I was maybe trying to recapture some ideal of romance that my husband and I no longer shared?<P>My marriage is stronger than I could have imagined it would be, but I really feel that the infidelity forced all of these issues to the surface. And I do feel very much of the romantic, in-love feelings for my H. As soon as I removed myself from the situation where I was in constant contact with the OM, I started falling back into love with my husband. And I have/had the same issues as K said in regard to his wife's fear of intimacy. I've had these issues for quite some time, but I realized that in order to be trusted, you have to be able to trust, especially your spouse. A marriage is nothing without it. When I was so mistrusting, I ended up in the affair and being on the other side of betrayer too. <P>
TS:<P>A couple comments.<P>The first is that my wife would tell you that we're successful as well. She doesn't visit these boards because she can't stomach the stories---they throw her recovery backwards. In fact, my wife's greatest fear right now is that I'll leave her---her fear of intimacy has meant that we haven't had sex for a long time, and as you probably are aware, most men (including me) use this equation:<P>romantic love = f(sex)<P>I've learned to realize that she can love me and not want to have sex (with me or anyone) because of the barriers she's put up. So it does make it "easier" on me to deal with the fact that she loves me, just not in the way that I want her to love me. And then I plan on how to build that love up (just as Connor has illustrated).<P>Point two: you've given yourself a year. That's great. Now go out and get a coach (Steve Harley) and start working with him. No excuses---you'll find your progress 10X faster if you do. And what's more important---YOU'LL FEEL MUCH BETTER about doing this work. No excuses---just do it.
When one spouse wanders- it is because they feel the need to be liked/loved/appreciated better than they are being treated by their spouse. All relationships follow a similar pattern of Lust/fantasy that then turns into discovery that then matures into really knowing who the OP is. <P>One relationship researcher found on average this whole period usually takes about 2 years. Think back to when you were dating. Some of us might only have gotten a couple of weeks or months into a relationship and then stopped it. Why did you stop that relationship?<BR>Why did you get into your present marriage relationship? what was the difference?<P>When you discuss being "in Love" with an OP you have to remember several things...Sex for most men (in general) is a way to communicate in an intimate way(regain those feelings of being appreciated,etc). Sex with someone does not mean you are "in love" with them. (And in general, for most women communication is intimate) And, being involved in an Emotional Affair does not mean you are "in Love" with the OP either. What men and women need and thus desire (because they aren't receiving) can be one or the other...I'm just stating what this researcher found out to be true for the majority of people...don't get hung up on the his/her stuff) <P>What is an emotional affair? ...fulfilling whatever emotional needs the WS has through communication. And, you can communicate in lots of ways...<P>Do you feel liked/loved/respected by your spouse when you disagree...argue...are ignored, etc? Probably not! What are all those things? Poor communication techniques.<BR>If on the other hand, your spouse listened to you without judgement and you felt really appreciated and understood...wouldn't you have warmer feelings for them?!<P>Communication is the basis for a true loving relationship. Proper communication means expressing your feelings in a non-judgemental way to an open receiving spouse.<BR>You cannot have a successful rebuilding of your marriage unless you learn NEW communication patterns and establish a respect for actually listening to the other spouses feelings.<P>The only way to actively practice NEW techniques where there is structure and support... from finish to start, is through a program called Retrouvaille. The web site address is <A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org" TARGET=_blank>www.retrouvaille.org</A> <BR>Read the testimonials....<P>Most of us who have attended did not find the answers to all the questions presented here in books, through our counselors, or by trying to "fix it" on our own. You WILL find out what was "apparently missing". And I truely believe that once you understand yourself (communication barriers) and your spouses feelings...there really is very little chance that one or the other would stray again. (because that op would not know what it takes to make a marriage/ relationship work- you'd believe that for a fact...and you would regain that intimacy needed for a wonderful love making relatioship.)<P>We used this program and found our answers. I would say 3/4+ of the 40 or so couples at our program finished it. Only a few dropped out. Too bad they didn't stay...they might have learned what they needed for their next relationship...It was evident that things don't always change just because you find someone new (there were several previously divorced and newly remarried couples). And, if you have children...they will definitely benefit...because they will grow up knowing what it takes to make a marriage work and not fall into the dysfunctional patterns they grew up with.<P>I can't tell you how miserable we'd both be if we hadn't stopped floundering. We tried the books, counselors, questionnaires, etc...<BR>Most couples who attended Ret. will tell you the same thing. Our love for each other is even deeper now!<BR>
Connor, <P>If you don't mind I have a few more questions for you. How long did it take for you to start feeling love for your H after the affair ended? What was your marriage like before the affair?<P>K, <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>romantic love = f(sex)<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, and for most women the equation is just the opposite:<P>sex = f(romantic love)<P>Although, sometimes sex is just sex and romantic love isn't even in the equation. That's where things are with my H right now, for me any way.<P>It seems like every time i start to make some progress with making things work, something nside applies the brakes. There's something I'm afraid of and I don't know what it is. It's not intimacy. I guess it's still that fear of loss of identity. I lost who I was for so long in my marriage (and it wasn't my H's fault, he's not the smothering type at all) It was me trying to do what he wanted to do because he didn't like the things I wanted to do. I gave up doing all the things that had defined me. I'm afraid that I will do that again. I've already started to gain some of the weight back that I lost. I don't want to become a fat couch potato again. It was tough pulling myself away from it the first time. In pulling myself away from it I pulled myself away from my H. <P>I guess I just need to find a way to be me and be in my marriage at the same time. It's probably possible, but still I doubt. And I am afraid.<BR>
Mercy,<P>Your case is still one in recovery, so I consider yours a potential success. Also, your case is different from mine. You had very real reasons for being unhappy with your marriage because of your H's previous behavior. And you probably doubted for a long time that his changes were for real and that they would last. In your case I do see alot of potential for success.<P>sad2,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>When one spouse wanders- it is because they feel the need to be liked/loved/appreciated better than they are being treated by their spouse.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But my H has always been attentive to me. He has always shown that he loves and appreciates me. And I was still unhappy. the love was still missing.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Do you feel liked/loved/respected by your spouse when you disagree...argue...are ignored, etc? Probably not! What are all those things? Poor communication techniques.<BR>If on the other hand, your spouse listened to you without judgement and you felt really appreciated and understood...wouldn't you have warmer feelings for them?!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We disagreed very infrequently. Never argued. Ignored? possibly at times. But he never acted as if he wasn't listening. He never passed judgment on what I said. He was just too passive about it. Didn't say much in return. Just looked and nodded. OK. I guess that felt like I was being ignored. Poor communciation skills.<P>I heard that Retrouvaille is a Catholic thing. Is that true? I haven't looked into it because neither of us is Catholic and, although Christian, we are very turned off by some of the Catholic teachings. I guess I can check out the web site and find out for myself. <P>Thanks for your input.<P><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess I just need to find a way to be me and be in my marriage at the same time. It's probably possible, but still I doubt. And I am afraid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know that you're afraid---and that fear isn't motivating you, but rather paralyzing you. And your goals are very possible. That's why I'm suggesting Steve as a coach---he'll be able to motivate you to succeed very quickly, and you'll find yourself enjoying the success.<P>I'm assuming that you're depressed about Francis and her marriage. I'm very disappointed as well; but I've always been concerned about her. Her recovery was "too" quick, and almost too textbook. She went through a complete 2-year process in a little over a month. My concerns are that with her mental issues (manic depression, OCD) are overwhelming her abilities to cope with her marriage. She's pretty atypical in what she's dealing with, and you should try not to let her recent setback affect you too much (and who knows what will happen, in the end---she may come swinging back into the "marriage" again).<P>I will share this with you. I went through all of my counseling without this Forum (it didn't exist). I think that in some ways it made it easier for me. I listened and discussed things with Steve, and we worked on my behaviors. I got in trouble when I tried to use a local psychotherapist---that was "too many cooks" for me. I can't really imagine how I'd feel if I was using this board solely for advice---there's an awful lot of "noise" on these boards. Some people can filter it out effectively, while others can't. I'd probably be in the second category.<P>Again, your best bet (IMO) is to make an appointment with Steve (or his sister) and discuss this with him.
My counselor put the equation a slightly wordier way:<P>Women desire access to a man's soul.<BR>Men desire access to a woman's body.<P>I think if I, the betrayed, hadn't given up at about 18 months, we would be a success story. On the other hand, if I hadn't given up, Guard might not have realized what he had thrown away. My main mistake was allowing myself a friendship with a man. Guard specifically told me to find someone. Well, someone found me and met all those needs...<P>Now Guard wants to meet them. And I'm having a terrible time considering trusting him...and also letting go of the OM, even though we've broken contact.<P>But Truthseeker, I do believe Guard loves me, even though he had a long affair, and the temptation of her continues--she emailed him yesterday.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10
TS, it took about 2 weeks after ending contact with the OM before I started realizing I was able to have those "feelings" for my H. As far as our relationship before the affair, it wasn't good, but at that time I thought that's just the way marriages are. We fought quite a lot, I would go out with my friends (had quite a bit of time apart doing our own social activities that didn't involve one another). We really didn't make each other a priority. I also think maturity has a lot to do with it. H and I were very young when we married (not only age-wise, but emotionally), and I really think that we had a LOT of growing up to do. We have learned to make one another a priority, spend most of our recreational time together, make dates. And we don't take one another for granted like before (well, most of the time
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Believe it or not the Catholic church actually devised a solid,helpful program to help marriages in dire straits.<P>But, there is nothing "Catholic" about it. Christian yes! When you attend the program or talk with the guest speakers you will find that they intentionally gear their program to the Christian community. There are no Catholic rules that are asked to be followed or preached about. We asked couples on our own and found out there were about 4 religions present...but we didn't approach everyone.<P>The best thing about the program is that you work on stuff only with your spouse. There is no group sharing! My H was very hesitant to attend if he had to share our stuff...but we were never asked and actually discouraged from voicing our personal stories. The only time we voiced an opinion was at the end when the guest speakers asked those who felt comfortable to share what they thought they had attained from going through the program. Hearing others tell their opinions on that was very refreshing...but there were not any "confessions".<P>I'll tell you that I was initially impressed that past Ret. attendees met us as we got out of our car to help us with our bags...there were a lot of couples who had driven there and then sat in their cars talking... They(past Ret.attendees) understood how tough it was to just get in the car and show up...let alone walk in the door...and it was evident from watching couples faces that it wasn't easy for one or both to attend. But by the end of the program...my H even mentioned there were a lot more smiling faces then expected. The majority of us were surprised with ourselves...that we got through it and ended up on far greener grass than we anticipated!<P>I encourage all to visit the web site and make the initial call.
sad2,<P>Thanks for responding about the Catholic thing. Now my next quesition - how much do they preach about "Staying together because it's God's will" and "Don't let Satan tempt you" and that sort of thing? If it's at all preachy my H will be very turned off and I won't be far behind him.<P>We attend church (Unitarian Universalist/Congregational combo) regularly (since the sh** hit the fan around Christmas time) but we aren't entirely religious. Spiritual, yes - religious, no.
Truthseeker.<BR>They don't shove it down your throat at all.<BR>Allen and I attended in October.<P>It is a wonderful program and you will learn a ton about you, your spouse and how to communicate.<P>Cat
Thanks, Cat. <P>Please don't take this as an insult or anything, but knowing your situation makes me wonder how much it really helps. Are you and Allen still using what you learned there?
Truthseeker... Not at all! I'm sorry, but it made me giggle. I totally understand your thoughts. It was all organized very well, presented in a truely non-threatening format, was done on a personal level (by the various speakers who had failed marriages) and never a word about Satan, etc. It really touched our hearts- <P>The program gives you a concrete,organized, but natural format for you to follow. I was astonished by my husbands enthusiastic approach to this technique. It is not something you learn and discard...it becomes an essential/natural way to communicate. It doesn't even take a lot of time...you actually gain time!<P>The program does offer continued support- they don't just expect you to walk out the door and "get it". Which was great...because all of our problems were not solved in one session. It's a solid process.<P>We both believe our progress would not have happened without Ret. Visiting a counselor 1 hour a week to vent our frustrations wasn't helping us to gain ground. Yeah, we'd make discoveries, but we weren't really doing any constructive brick laying. As they say...you can't build a house unless there is a solid foundation.<P>Most of the men that went through the program expressed relief that there was now a place they could rely on to give consistent examples of healthy marriages. We were at the point that listening to the radio or watching TV was making us mad...the media does nothing lately, but discuss affairs, divorce, or abuse. <P>This is my personal thought: If society could make a decision to reinforce healthy marriages, the divorce rate wouldn't be 50%. We went to school to learn stuff. But, when it comes to being married, people assume that "love will keep you together". Now all of us here know that isn't so. Staying together with the same person for years on end is tough! Every marriage has cycles. Even the examples we have of couples who have been married for 25+ years- don't always show us an example of a healthy relationship. So, that is how I thought about going through this program. <BR>1. Would I rather learn what I need to know to make a marriage work... <BR>2. Settle into a dysfunctional relationship where I'll be miserable for the rest of my life... <BR>3. or be the statistic and take my kids through rough times. <P>(I had been a child of divorce and I lived it)<P>Sorry I got off track a little...
<P>Visit the web site...make the call. What do you have to lose? How can things get any worse? You have everything to gain.
I did check the web site and it turns out I just missed one in my area last weekend. the next one is in September. We're going away camping with another couple the first week of August. (I'm planning on bringing lots of books so I can bury my head in them if things get too tense.) Maybe after that I'll be ready for it! I'll talk it over with my H and see what he thinks.<P>Ditto on the joint counseling. My individiual counsleing has done more to help us than the joint counseling right now. probably because I have some internal stumblinig blocks to get past before I can focus on the marriage.<P>But there are some communication patterns that need to be broken. So I guess it can't hurt, not too much anyway
Certainly not more than the alternative...<P>