Is it possible to go through the painful experience of withdrawl without your spouse knowing or without her help?<P>I KNOW that it would be ideal if the spouse was there to support and help...but part of the problem of me needing to go through this place was due to the lack of support in the first place. <P>Not looking for sermons...just some advice or success stories of those who may have done it.<P>Thanks...

It is possible to go through withdrawl alone. <P>After D day I promised my husband I would give it a shot at rebuilding our marriage. <P>We were not communicators, so what looked to him as if I were not willing to work on our marriage was actually me withdrawing from the OM. There were days I just wanted to be alone.<P>However, after my withdrawl was almost over I did start to "come around" and he saw progress. Took about 6 - 8 weeks though.<P><BR>The key to ending the affair is ...It has to be something YOU WANT to do.<P>You can do it alone but if you start to weaken, look for support. If you can't get it from your spouse, come here!<BR>

NoMas:<P>I went through the withdrawal phase alone. Well, alone HUMANLY speaking...I know that God was with me and giving me the strength I needed.<P>My emotional affair took place in the latter part of 1998 and my physical affair took place in the early part of 1999. My withdrawal phase is a little different than some of the others that you might have read about here. I was lucky in that my eyes were opened VERY quickly. Within a fairly short length of time, I saw the OM for what he really was...SCUM. Knowing that he was scum helped, but I still went through a difficult time.<P>As you know, I still haven't revealed my affair to my husband (I don't need a sermon, either) .<P>After the weekend of my physical affair, I made a few weak attempts at ending the affair. As I've said before, I was so attracted/addicted to the OM that I almost met him out of town a second time (boy, I'm glad I didn't give in to THAT one!). I ended the affair via e-mail. At first, the withdrawal period was horrible. I thought about the OM constantly. The first few weeks with no contact were really miserable (that's an understatement). Within a few weeks of NO CONTACT, my thoughts REALLY became clearer than ever before. I began to realize that not only was the OM SCUM, but I never needed him to begin with. I needed and loved my husband.<P>I didn't seek counseling until AFTER I had already suffered through withdrawal alone (by my own choice...I don't expect sympathy, here).<P>I HIGHLY suggest having a good counselor BEFORE you go into the whole withdrawal thing. If your spouse isn't supportive, you'll need someone who is. By that statement, I mean a friend of the same gender or a qualified counselor. Yes, hindsight is 20/20. I was so overwhelmed with guilt and loneliness during my withdrawal phase that I contemplated suicide, leaving the country, etc. For me, the withdrawal phase was a time of irrational thinking in it's most INTENSE form. Only, I had to muster the strength to behave rationally. In other words, I wanted desperately to hop on a plane to meet the OM again, but, I didn't.<P>The NO CONTACT rule is very important (understatement). If you break the rule and have contact, you will just be making things more difficult for you, your spouse, the other person, family, etc.<P>Anyway, I hope this helps. I sure wish that I had known about the MB Forums while I was going through withdrawal.<P>Let me know how you're doing...<P>Best wishes,<P>Jill

Jill...<P><BR>***sigh****<P>Thank you for the encouragement. I hear what you are saying. I just feel so tired and don't know that I have the desire or energy right now, to work on the marriage. It does seem so impossible from where I stand. <P>One thing I know without a doubt, and I am sure "outsiders" will think I am just in a fog, but I know, without a shadow of doubt, that I will ever look at this other person as "scum". I realize that "sin" certainly can be scum....and a "sinner" can wallow in scum...but I also know that God hates the sin and loves the sinner. I just happen to be in love with the sinner who is involved with the sin with me.<BR>(Does that make sense? )<P>God help us both.

I haven't done it yet, but I am in the process....I am also going through the pain of withdrawl without help of my spouse. He doesn't know about my affair. <P>This is EXTREMELY difficult and the only place I can even vent is here... I have no one who I can discuss this with other than those here who have or are going through it also... <P>I think (HOPE, PRAY) that it is possible to get through it alone... but I know it would be easier with more support... It is probably the hardest thing I have ever had to do... by myself.... <P>It is difficult to explain the red eyes and sniffles (on those occasional bad days that I go through) as "recently aquired allergies" to my H... (Unfortunately, the fighting off withdrawls is not limited to only the times I am alone.)<P>Dare I say that I am one who can understand your feelings? Guess I just did, now didn't I? (Referring to your other post "pain is pain") After a year and a half long affair... I was where you are now...It was VERY difficult to let it go... and I'm still trying to get through it... alone... and it is not an easy thing to fight when you have no one to talk with about it...<P>I wish you luck... hang in there and prayers to you... I will be watching this post for success stories too! Maybe I can pull some more strength from them... <P>

I am still in the throes of a terrible withdrawl and I am doing it alone. It has been about 11 weeks and some days the pain is as bad as the first day. On top of that, I am going through a divorce and trying to work and take care of two boys. I keep waiting to wake up and not feel this overwhelming sadness. I try to tell myself that the OM lied to me, that he only used me, but it doesn't work; the pain is still my companion. I pray that someday I'll feel normal again.<P>LS<BR>

NoMas:<P>Sorry to hear of your pain, but know that it will get better (slowly, but surely).<P>Withdrawl is part of a process, and it has helped me to think of it as being part of a bigger picture (like standing too close to a painting - you know that the picture (recovery) is there, but you can't see it because you are so focused on the point right in front of your nose). As you start to take steps (little, tiny baby steps in my case) back, the picture takes on more recognizable shape. That's my way of looking at it, anyway. I'm starting to recognize a little bit more of the picture, but it really is a day by day activity (in the beginning, it was minute by minute, hour by hour: Please let me get through the next 15 mintues without thinking of her, please let me get through the next hour without thnking of her).<P>As to whether it can be done alone, I think that the answer is "yes," but it certainly is much more difficult. My wife has been very understanding and very open with me about it: "Lee, I know that you're hurting, and I know that you are grieving, but you cannot come to me with these feelings. I can't be objective enough to offer you anything." Instead, I come here to vent (quite a few posts in "In Recovery"), I speak to our counsellor, I call on a friend (not so much to ask for help, but just to say "I'm having a bad time and I need to tell someone.") I also write in a journal (or just on a scrape of paper if that's all I have at hand). Take whatever steps you can to express how you feel - don't keep it in your heart or it will eat at you.<P>Something that I recognized early on that has helped me is the knowledge that I am NEVER going to be able to completely wipe my feelings for the OW from my being. The "other person" in the affair gave you something, they filled a need in your life and were a part of your life. You can't expect to completely erase that, and as much as I wish it were the case, you can't just flip a switch in your mind and turn off your feelings. Thinking that you can is only setting yourself up for a disappointment when the memories come flooding back (and believe me, they will. Sometimes at the most unlikely time.) The memories and hurt do fade. Accept the affair as part of your life and learn what it has to teach you. There is a lesson there, you just have to be open to it. <P>My best wishes to you. It does get easier, but it also takes time, patience, and perspective.<P>Lee

One more thought.<P>Don't be afraid to cry. Don't think, "I'm supposed to be working on my marriage, how can I cry over this person?" You cry because it expresses what you're feeling (even if you do have to chalk it up to "allergies.")<P>Tears cried on the inside<BR>Stay, and stay, and stay.<P>Tears cried on the outside<BR>Dry, and fade away.<P>Good luck.<P>Lee<P>

This might sound off the wall, but it's good that we can all talk about our symptoms and finds solace in each other. In regards to withdrawal pains and dealing with it alone, maybe we can brainstorm solutions on how to handle them during those periods. What suggestions, ideas or experiences do we each have that might help another? For example: I do think about the OM alot and it is hard not to think about him especially when I am alone. So I force myself to do something productive like gardening, reading, exercise or watch a movie that does not deal with love issues. Yes, it can be hard because you don't have the energy to do much of anything. Similar to depression symptoms. In fact you are going through depression. Also, each OP is different. Some were a blessing during a stressful time in our lives while others were not. I have looked at my OM closely (he was a blessing)and tried to picture our personalities together. I ended up with more pros than cons unfortunately, but kept telling myself that we are not together for a reason. I have to learn to accept the things I cannot change. He has a family who needs him as much as my family needs me. So I keep searching for ways to move on. I have even asked that question here. I don't regret ever meeting my OM, but I need to move on as with the rest of us. So let's brainstorm. My love and prayers to you all.

Do all betrayers feel withdrawl??? Just curious.<BR>Kris

To Kris...Most likely the betrayers here are feeling it or we wouldn't be here. I am sure there are some who don't...I don't believe the OP I was involved in felt anything. Of course, I don't know that for a fact, but in 11 weeks I have never heard one word. <P>

sobeit, I don't think it is off the wall at all. I think that we need to support each other through our moments when we feel weakness. <P>When I get those "I miss him, I want to talk with him" feelings, I do what you do and focus on doing something else. It is difficult to get them out of your mind at times, but I find if I start running down the list of things that he did that hurt me or angered me, the desire to talk with him goes away much easier...<P>This is an especially hard time for me (OM and I were together a lot this time last year) and my H and I are under a lot of financial stress and H is being critical and blaming me for everything again... this is what started things last time... I feel the depression creeping into my life again... So, I find myself here, reading and posting more often lately.<P>We need to help each other through these times... it is critical to have the support... at least for me it is...<P>I'm praying for all of us...<P>

There is a scene in the old movie "Poseidon Adventure" (sp?) where the folks that were trapped in the overturned ship had to swim quite a stretch under water through some unknown corridors.<P>This withdrawl is much like that...you take a deep breath, go under, then begin your trek through the dark unknown. You don't know how long this will last...where you are going...and as you begin to fight for air, you panic and because you don't know where the next air pocket might be, you hastily go back to where you "knew you could breath" which is with the other person..and you breath deeply when getting back there...strengthening the bond of dependency that exist between the two of you.<P>Surely...it would have been better to never get in this place...but many are. I really would like to see more on this issue addressed here...as there are many that need it.

NoMas, that is an EXCELLENT analogy! Very well put!

Amen!

Sobeit:<P>Your reply sums up my experience so well. It sounds as if we had and have very similar experiences and feelings. I posted a thread in "Recovery" about the feelings I retain about the OW and got pretty well roasted for it. It can certainly be a lonely feeling, but its comforting to know that others have experienced (and are experiecing) some of the same. <P>I've taken the tack that ths is part of a life change for me. I'm not the same person I was before my affair, and I'm not trying to stop the changes that are taking place. Instead, I'm participating in my life for the first time in a long, long time. I'm not reacting, I'm acting. As Og Mandino (a pop psychologist character on The Simpsons) said, "Its time to stop being Human Beings, and start being Humans Doing." I probably could have picked a better way to kick start my life than by having an affair, but I didn't. Thems just the plain ol' facts. Now, on with my life.<P>Best wishes to all you others who are this journey.<P>Lee<BR>

Dear friends(no mas, lacee, lonelysoul,plnnr, jill, truthseeker and everyone else I missed: Too bad I can't load you up in my truck like I use to do with my kids when I wasn't feeling well. We could sing along with the rock and roll tunes, go for a hamburger and fries and then go listen to a free concert in the park and just dance releasing all that energy, pain, anger until we drop. Plus the park I use to take the kids had a large water fountain where all the kids and adults would run under and get completely soaked. I would envision the water as rinsing all my pain away. Hey do you know the words to "Radar Love"? My kids do. My love and prayers to you all!

NoMas,<P>That is an excellent analogy.<P>I don't mean for this to sound bitter and cruel, but I can't think of any other way to ask it, so please accept my apologies in advance...<P>Do you betrayers who are pining away for your OP give your spouse credit for putting up with your divided emotional attention on top of your initial betrayal? In a very real way you continue to be unfaithful by pining away. (I'm so sorry for how this sounds ) Your posts are dripping with the pain you are feeling - how do you think your spouses must feel?<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

Hi.<P>I want to clarify something about my withdrawal phase...<P>In my case, my withdrawal phase wasn't necessarily a time of "pining away" for the OM. I think I was "pining away" for the FANTASY realm that really didn't exist. I was "pining away" to go back in time and relive the day that I made the decision to meet the OM (if I could make that choice again, I'd choose NOT to meet the OM). I was "pining away" wanting my marriage to be healed. I was broken and wondered how I could be so incredibly STUPID. I was miserable during withdrawal, but I wasn't necessarily miserable because of missing/wanting/needing the OM. I was missing/wanting/needing the fantasy realm that the OM represented. I was missing/wanting/needing my husband, but my husband didn't know how to reach me, and I didn't know how to reach him (some days, we still don't). Does that make sense? Probably not. <P> <P>Jill

2sad,<P>re: "pining away"<P>Yes, I have thought about how my H feels. I have thought about the pain I feel about not being able to see the OM, wondering how he could pull himself away from me like that. And then I thought, my God, that's how my H feels about me!<P>I feel bad that I have caused my H pain, but at the same time, I can't deny myself the 'grieving process' as my counselor put it. Losing my relationship with the OM (it was an EA) is like a mini-death. I am in mourning for something that I had that was precious to me and now is gone. Once I am done with my own grieving process, I can turn my attention to my H and help him heal. I'm not there yet. I barely have the strength to get through my own pain, I simply don't have the strength to help him through his. Not yet. <P>And I still have very serious doubts about my feelings for him and my marriage in general. It's too early in the process to tell if that's reality or just my pain talking but right now I don't feel any love for my H. I don't feel any hostility towards him either. I can't think of anything he could do to change the way I feel. I hear other betrayers here saying that they know they love their spouses but the power of the addiction is too strong. My problem is that I know no such thing. It's possible that I love him and I'm not seeing it through the fog, but I can't remember ever feeling more than just a faint glimmer of warmth for him. I have promised myself and him that I will not make a decsion to leave the marriage for at least a year in order to give myself the time to get through this and see things clearly. (And also to not upset my son's senior year of high school) Sometimes, I think it's going to be a very long year...<P>

Jill,<P>As I've said before, you are a rare jewel. <P>I will be very suprised if others feel the same way. Let's see....<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

2sad4words...<P>Well...the question at the beginging had to do with going it alone. So...when the down cycles come strong...I just pass if off as being depressed about just other things in general...Just can't bear the thought of my wife knowing grieving like that for someone else...yet...seems like she needs to know the depth of need and pain in my life.<P>A tough place and choice to make, no doubt.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 09, 2000).]

Jill...you are lucky that that you still had a marriage to work on. It is good that you were able to redirect your love to someone who loved you. I wish what I have been going through had some end insight. My H hurt me before the affair and afterward. The OM hurt me. I feel used, rejected, and incredibly stupid for trusting either of the two. Imagine going through withdrawl and divorce at the same time. Some days the pain of one balances the pain of the other. Anyway, I know there is supposedly an analogy with withdrawl and addiction. I quess. But it feels like a break-up to me, addiction or not. It hurts as much, if not worse as it did when I was 16 and breaking up with a boyfriend. It's probably worse now because married people shouldn't be breaking up with anyone. I have a double whammy on this one. Truly, I am glad you and your H are working on things. Prayers for all of us out there still struggling with this unfortunate condition.<P>

Sobeit, I'm ready to go anytime! <P>2sad4words, I don't think of it as pining away... because I don't want the OM back... it is not an all the time thing with me... but now and then it gets the best of me... (it mostly makes me sick with guilt and if only's) I think it was the feeling the filled the void that is missed the most which is why I am trying to get that back into my marriage. It took a lot of hard work for me to get this far... and I am not going back there! <P>I think that we each just need to know that there is someone else out there that understands what we are going through... And they are here... and it helps to have the outlet..<P>I think that is why most of us are here... to get it off our chests and release it in a positive manner instead of turning on our spouse or to an OP and destroying what we have been trying to accomplish... it's part of getting over the affair and the chaos it has created in our lives...<P>Yes.. I know the spouse suffers miserably... and they deserve tons of credit... It is extremely painful for everyone involved... <P>Even though my H doesn't know about the affair, he has been effected by the changes in me... and I will spend the rest of my life making it up to him... by making our marriage better and stronger and showing him my love... even when he is having a bad day and takes it out on me... <P>

RE: Pining away.<P>Part of the incredible pain for me during this phase has been knowing that I've hurt not only my wife, but the OW as well. The feelings I have for her are not romantic, but the sympanty one human feels for another ("I'm sorry I've hurt you and your family"). When I said this in the "Recovery" post I was roundly criticized (someone even suggested that I should "hate" her), and that was troubling to me. <P>My wife understands these feelings. She knows that while I may have no romantic feelings for the OW, I do have other feelings (remorse, sympathy, empathy) and memories that will always be with me. Our goal, and our plan, is to create new memories for ourselves and to let the others gradually fade. <P>Thanks for sharing your thoughts.<P>Lee

Dear Tosad: I am only speaking for myself here, but I did not get to this point in my life by myself. For years I have tried to work with my spouse. For years I have done everything from going to counseling to planning, paying for and forcing my spouse to go on a honeymoon 19 years after we were married. I tried to communicate with him with every medium I could think of including talking calmly, crying, screaming, throwing things and then finally just accepting his behavior and going my own way. He says that he learned to love me deeply right before we had our breakdown a few years ago. Marriage is alot of work, but effort should be put forth by both parties and that is not always the case. I will admit that I gave up, but after working at it for over 20 years I couldn't take anymore. I had a series of OM(s) in my life and no I am not proud of it, but I am human and needed the affection my spouse was not giving. My spouse was giving all his friendship to other women instead of me. I heard about how sexy other women looked that he had seen out on the road. How some chick had big boobs and a thin waist. I had voiced my anger at his insensitivity and of course it goes on. When we make love, he says he can't talk to me because then he can't concentrate. I felt like I was being used. He doesn't say too much anymore about the other chicks and he still doesn't give alot of compliments(maybe one a year if I am lucky) Yet, I am the one trying to make this marriage work. I am the one who still loves him after all the weight comments, his women friends that I have now just accepted, all his remarks regarding my compentency and so on. When we went through our breakdown, he told me how much he loved me and wanted me to stay with him. I hurt so much because I did love him, but why did he wait until after I became unstable to tell me this? By that time I was in love with the OM as well. I said alot of hurtful things to my spouse because I was so angry and hurt at the same time. I wanted to be loved, held, appreciated, needed beyond the sex part, a friend. He thought he was doing his duty by working and buying his family all the things they needed. I guess we missed the connection somewhere of how to work with each other. My latest OM filled that void even if only for awhile and no I don't regret it. I regretted the others, but not this one. I know it was not right and I wish I could have done things differently, but it didn't happen that way. All I can do now is try and move on with my life and figure out ways to save my marriage even though my spouse is not always a willing participant. There are folks out there that will say "you should have done this or that", however, it's beyond that point now. I am grieving over my loss of a true good friend. A person who encouraged me to hold my head up, to fight my eating disorder, to trust myself. He accepted me as I am and loved me as I am. I had a hard time letting him go knowing that our relationship wasn't right at this time. I am working with my spouse trying to encourage communication no matter what form and praying to God that our marriage will heal and I will heal from the OM and concentrate my efforts on my spouse. Not everyone was out to hurt their spouse or SO intentionally. Things happen for reasons that alot of times we cannot understand or maybe in some cases refuse to understand. I will not condemn either party because both experience the pain. I offer my prayers to both betrayed and betrayer in hopes that they will be able to get their lives back together or be able to move on and be happy again.

I am also going through withdrawal alone. My H doesn't know about my affair and I have chosen not to tell for reasons that are best for my situation right now.<P>I agree with Lacee, it's not that I am pining away for OM. And I definately do not want him back especially because he hurt me in a really humiliating way. I feel so stupid for not only letting him do that to me but it's the constant regret of what I did.<P>I will admit that he did fill some void that I wasn't getting from my H. I wish so bad that I would have turned to him instead of the arms of another man.<P>At first is was like I was a school girl in lust and I just missed that feeling of butterflies and excitement. He made me feel like a woman again who was wanted and desired,something my H hadn't given me in years.<P>I think my withdrawal is that I think of how much OM affected my life and sometimes I tend to think about those pleasent memories and I think that is what I miss.But then I just start thinking about what a jerk he really was and why the heck would I want someone like that. For me the fog is slowly lifting and I know oneday it will all be clear to me.<P>By the way the picture analogy was excellent-I can't remember who posted it on this topic, but it was a great way to look at the recovery from affairs.<P>Reina

Is it me (it prob is - I am male) or is this whole pining thing just as selfish as the affairs? I hear alot of crying about how the OM or OW hurt you by leaving and/or how you miss him or her so much. It just doesn't sit right with me. Shouldn't you be crying for the one that you betrayed? I am sure that you feel hurt and it helps if you call it an 'addiction' but come on. I am not trying to stir the pot so don't just wail on me please but I am having a difficult time with understanding that yall are going 'day by day just trying to survive without OM or OW' What is your spouse doing the entire time he or she can see your selfish pain? Again, please help me understand don't just flame me.

Newbie....let me help you understand.<P>For one reason or other...we were just kind of "floating" along in life...some serious needs going unmet. Then...not that we were really looking for it....we "stumbled" across someone who for one reason or other...lit such a spark inside of us that produced a "feeling" that we had not had in some time. We are not just talking about "goosebumps" here...but a highly powerful and addictive euphoria that really has no comparison.<P>You defy common sense and logic and even moral convictions because of a vacum that is created and you just yield to this "place". <P>The longer you stay there...the greater and more intense the feeling becomes. You don't think about what you may be doing to other innocent people. Oh, you might....but the pull is quiet strong.<P>I am not making excuses or looking for sympathy, just tyring to answer your question. Once you become involved and depenedent on this euphoric sensation...you are convinced you will never find anything better anyplace else...or ever again...including your own marriage. <P>Someone shared with me that when the force of emotion and the power of logic meet head on, emotion will win everytime, unless there is a plan to follow. The key thing I am discovering, is the "desire" or "want to" to leave what is "impossible" to find anywhere else...and take the high road back to doing the right thing. There has to be some motivation to spark this want to. <P>I am intrigued with the number of post I read where once "out of that place" of addiction, how many seem to "turn" on the OM/OW and blast them. I wonder if they become a target of their own guilt and shame.<P>The person I have been involved with...is a remarkable woman...one I could marry in a heart beat...who does share a common weakness that I seem to have. So I guess that is why I overlook it. Sure...an outsider would ask: "Why do you love someone who would betray her own husband?" Well...I am in the same boat. As I mentioned earlier in another post, I believe,...I will never see this woman as "scum" or a "jerk" as some chose to refer to them. Our "sin" maybe scum, but even God loves the sinner, while hating the sin. I ended up "falling in love with a sinner" who fell into the same sin as I.<P>Obviously, there is some strong forces/vibes/ working here...that would cause good, but weak people to do the unimaginalble. It is that same force that keeps the "bonded" until a clean break can be made.<P>Some ask, "What about the spouse" who is left behind? Good question. But it seems obvious for multiple reason, that person wasn't "lighting" fires like this other person started doing...often unintentionally.<P>I think Harley's book: "His Needs/Her Needs" really addresses some key truths. If only husbands and wives were making regular deposits in their spouses love bank, these things would not have happened.<P>I'll leave you with this thought....I never would have guessed I could have ended up in this place. I did not have the attitude that I would "never be here". I just didn't think it would happen to me. It did. I was weak...and fell...and remain weak...and seem even more powerless to "Get out".<P>And...bring on the "guns" readers...I'll open myself for the bullets...but his can happen to ANYONE!(confession time) I've been married for 19 years. Never had a problem with this. I have seen the devestation of this stuff on countless families...as I have been a pastor for 11 years. I am not proud of this place. But I am human...I have sinned...and I will accept the consequences of my actions. <P>But I will always look at a fallen sinner in new eyes. I use to wonder "how can people make such poor choices?"<P>Now I know.

thenewbie...it isn't that hard to understand. For whatever reason two people connect and fall in love or lust or whatever. I think women have a harder time because of the emotional/romance stuff. I'm not 100% on this, but for me it had an impact. Being married doesn't mean you stop being human and don't hurt. It's a break-up and it hurts for whatever reason; add in the guilt and pain and remorse and you have withdrawl.<BR>

<P>Maybe there really is no explanation why<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited May 09, 2000).]

x<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited May 09, 2000).]

thenewbie<P>to answer your question<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Shouldn't you be crying for the one that you betrayed? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, in time. Some folks here are. But for now, I can't see his pain until I am no longer blinded by my own.

Truthseeker: I can so relate to what you have said. It is so hard to move on period when you are dying inside. Sometimes I feel like I've been hit by a stun gun. There are days I just don't know what the heck happened or what I'm doing or how I got here. I don't ever remember feeling about my H the way I felt about the OM. Please, don't blast me on this, it is hard enough. I wish so bad I did, but I didn't. I think that revelation made me look at what I was missing and long for something that I knew was never possible, at least not in my own marriage.

Newbie:<P>My wife, a recovering alcoholic, and I talked about this quite a bit. She kept telling me, "...but my addiction (to alcohol) was a physical addiction." I asked her, "Don't you remember the butterflies in your stomach when we first dated and I called. Don't you remember the incredible feeling of joy when we saw each other after a long abscence. That feeling of being swept off your feet? All of those are physical sensations caused by endorphins in your brain." I used to tell my affair partner "I get high off you." It was that strong a feeling. You see them and its like getting a fix for an addict. That person fills a void in your life that you know you should be working on with your spouse, but for whatever reason, you don't. All rationality is out the window (my affair partner used to ask me all the time, "What head are you thinking with? You know God gave men two heads, but only enough blood supply to operate one at a time?"). <P>That's the nearest I can explain it. <P>Lee

plnr & lonelysoul.<P>I have learned sooo much here and thru recovery books on this subject. My W had a very strong EA, w/ some kissing,hugs,and very intimate talk. PA was about 2-3 weeks my est.<BR>I caught it in time! <BR>anyway....<BR>To much advice on the contray'from friends,<BR>pastor etc...we have had some continual contact w/ the OM. See...our sons are on same sports team. We just started a new season and they are again on same team. <BR>matter fact in about 2 hrs we have a parents mtg and the OM will be there. OM & I have talked frequently, he has not pursued at all since discovery date 9/8/99. Had apologized and stated will do whatever. His W does not know. <BR>Question, and comments, <BR> Am I nuts ? I've heard here of folks moving away to avoid the OM/OW . We have had some bumps, I have totally filled my W's love tank , and she states she does not have feelings for OM. But...sometimes after contact she is all what I describe as " giddy" for awhile...<BR>super happy, and lovey dovey w/ me. She used to do that in early stages of recovery when she knew she had done something wrong...talked to OM etc... <BR>Thoughts on CONTACT v. No CONTACT ?? <P><P>------------------<BR>jnvc

JNVC...You are much stronger than I would be. I can't speak for your wife, but I don't imagine seeing the OM is good. If she was having a love affair with him, seeing him must be incomfortable. Living in the same town and having children on the sports team has got to be tense for all concerned. My H's old girlfriend's kids and our children were on the same team for a few years and that was even a little awkward. Fortunatly for me, the OM lives about 300 miles and I am not forced to deal with that. I don't think I could right now; I'm still wrestling with the talons of withdrawl. Where are you in terms of recovery? Is your wife always giddy and happy or just after she has seen the OM? I don't think you have to do something as drastic as move, but I certainly would avoid the OM as much as possible. If she is not completely over him, every time she sees him, she's thinking about him and what happened. I'm not saying not to trust your wife; I bet she is sincere with you;however, being around him has got to be like having someone wave a box of chocolates under your nose when you are on a diet.<P>LS<P>

JNVC:<P>RE: Contact vs. No Contact<P>You might want to check out my thread "Spoke with Affair Partner" in the "Recovery" board. We haven't had any contact since then, but I had to, for my own sense of closure, contact her and talk to her about why I was ending our relationship. How very un-Harley! I got roasted quite a bit for it.<P>The entire point of the discussion, if I can distill it down, is that there are as many ways to recover from an affair as there are reasons for them starting. As much as many here would like to believe it, there is no "handbook" for how do this. I take little bits and pieces of information whereever I find them (here, our counsellor, conversations with my wife)and apply them to my situation. If they help, great. If they don't, I don't continue with them. <P>Affairs, and all matters of the heart for that matter, are deeply, intensely personal episodes. Individuals act and react differently - there is no "right" or "wrong" answer to lots of these questions. The best we can hope for is that someone here (or in our own circle of family and friends) can give an encouraging word, a timely question ("Have your really thought about that? Do you think that's such a good idea? Why?"), or an shoulder to cry on when needed. <P>My suggestion: The next time you are coming home from a ballgame and your wife seems extra giddy or in a extra good moood, simply ask her why. "Honey, you seem in a really good mood, can you tell me why so I can share it with you?" No judgemental statements, no pressure, no mention of the OM. You should also be prepared for her answer. What are you going to feel if she says, "I feel giddy after I see X." One of the things I've come to realize through this affair is that you can't be afraid to ask the question, and you can't be afraid of knowing the answer. Knowledge, in and of itself, is neither good nor bad. What we choose to do with the knowledge we gain is the important part of the equation.<P>A bit of a ramble, but that's OK. <P>Lee

Lee...I think bringing the affair to closure was the right thing to do. To me it shows that you are kind, that you are a grown up, and a decent human being. I am positive that this helped the OW through the healing process as well.<P>I wish so much that the man I was involved with had done it. This man gave every indication that I was the love of his life and would be there to support me through thick and thin. Words are cheap. When my H found out about the EA, he would call several times a day to make sure I was okay, to lend his support, to ask about the kids...I know, what on earth was I thinking? When my H called the OM's wife...he vanished. He left me an email saying he was sorry and couldn't communicate with me anymore. That was three months ago. Closure? I don't think so. I realize you deserve what you get when you play dangerous games, but I know I would have respected his wishes to work on his marriage if that is what he had intended to do. Why not treat me with the same respect I did him and end it...not run away. I realize now that he wasn't at all what I thought. I may have bee the OW, but I am still a human being who deserved at least a goodbye. So, maybe for personal reasons, I think what you did spoke volumes about what a fine person you are. You made a mistake, yet you rectified that and made it as painless as possible to all concerned. You handled the situationn like a gentleman and not a jerk.<P>[

Lonelysoul:<P>Thank you for your kind words. In all honesty, I could only bring myself to call the OW and end it the way I did after first sending her two e-mails (the first a very short, terse "Its over" type, then a longer, more detailed one). I realize that what I was doing was working my way up to doing it the "honorable" way. The thing that held me back and made be miserable until I did it the way I knew I should? Harley's recommendation about sending a letter and being as cold and impersonal as possible. Sorry, but that isn't how I operate and I couldn't live with myself. The OW also called me and left a voice mail message, "I respect your decision to end our relationship, but doing it by email is small and petty. If you ever felt any true feelings for me you'd at least have the common decency to speak with me ane tell me." Pretty strong stuff, and I deserved every bit of it. <P>My point in all of this (and yes, there is a point in all of this) is that these matters are individual. Our stories all have certain themes to them, all of them have common elements; however, we're all different and we all have to approach our lives differently. What worked for me may not work for the next person, and I can't endorse any single approach. Do what you know is right for you, and you can't go wrong. It may be painful, people may get hurt, but you'll have been true to yourself.<P>Lee

Once again...I think you did the decent thing. Maybe I should have written an email like your friend, but I don't think it would have made a difference. He has never contacted me, but I have fallen off the wagon a few times. In one of the emails I took the same approach in if you ever cared, you would be up front...no response. I fell off the wagon twice, twice was ignored...and felt worse for it, so that is that. <P>Anyway....you are right, every situation has a different set of dynamics....what will work for some, won't for others; however unless you are involved with a stalker, there is no harm in being kind and considerate to all injured parties.<P>

So tell me....can the pain of withdrawl become so intense...that you buy into the "lie" that nothing could be worse than this...so you follow your heart and go against all the wise counsel and truth and logic that you have ignored for so long...to satisfy the intense longing and desire within that you feel you can't live without?

NO MAS,<P>Regarding your question: "can the pain of withdrawl become so intense...that you buy into the "lie" that nothing could be worse than this...so you follow your heart and go against all the wise counsel and truth and logic that you have ignored for so long...to satisfy the intense longing and desire within that you feel you can't live without?<BR>"<P>The answer is Yes.<P>But it's still wrong, and it will come back to bite you in the butt, I guearantee it. I think you already know this, don't you? I know. I'm there too.

I'm having a BAD day so forgive me my comments. (I guess this is a bad way to start)<P>It is hearing the remarks of the WS about the feelings for the OP that make me want to tell my H to take a hike and move on. I don't even know if he feels the way that that some of the WS here tell the story.<P>Of course I am angry, of course I am hurt, but I want to tell my H "grow Up". Actually I did tell him that recently as well as I would make it easy for him and divorce him. I told him I would also like to find a companion, a step father for my children. I told him it might take me a little while because I have been home taking care of the house and the kids, and have not had the good fortune of having my "soul mate' work side by side with me for 5 years. <P>I am sorry, but WHAT IS wWRONG with you people. The "thing" missing in you is not what your spouse is not giving you, it is what you are not giving yourself!!!!!!<P>My H's response to what I said was....no I don't want you to get a divorce, I didn't say Op was what I wanted. The problem is in me and not anythting to do with OP or you.!!!!<P><BR>I have counseled with S.Harley a few times. I find him so helpful. He did say to me recently that affairs tend to be about a weakness in an individual at a given time and then NOT protecting yourself at that time of weakness. The marraige may not have been THE problem!! (problems do exist in ETOH, or drug abuse, physical abuse etc.)<P>He also told me that the person who is having the affair cannot distinquish between cold and hot. If they are feeling warm with Op, then they HAVE to tell themselves they were cold with their spouses.!!!!!<P>I'm sorry, but the pining away really incenses me right now. I have certainly had my opportunities to feel good when someone paid attn to me, but chose not to. <P>And believe me I can come up with my own list of complaints. I didn't because I know that people are who they are. You accept them. When they are your spouse, you respect them, you trust them, you believe in them!!! At least I did. What was wrong with me then!!!<P><BR>By the way JILL, I know you are a betrayer, but I hope you don't get too mad at me and my response. I have always read your posts and admired your ability to be introspective. You seem to SEE it for what it is, even if you cannot CONTROL it. That is human!!!!!

NoMas:<P>Hang in there... *sigh*<P>Believe it or not, things will get better. Just please keep in mind how important the NO CONTACT rule is. Don't sabotage yourself, okay?<P>Tootrusting: I appreciate your comment to protect my feelings. But, it wasn't necessary. This is a place for people to say what's on their mind...I can take it (most of the time ).<P>Jill

Hello all,<P>This is my first post, although I've been reading here since mid-January. At times I've wanted to reply to others, but didn't have the time to think my response through. I know feelings here are quite fragile (mine included) and so I am hesitant to just write off the top of my head. As was already addressed here, our experiences share some commonalities, but in the specifics are intensely personal. <P>With that in mind, NoMas, I would like to address your question: "can the pain of withdrawl become so intense...that you buy into the "lie" that nothing could be worse than this...so you follow your heart and go against all the wise counsel and truth and logic that you have ignored for so long...to satisfy the intense longing and desire within that you feel you can't live without?".<P>I cannot answer for you which way you will go, but I can share from my own experience. From what you have shared about your background I imagine you are experiencing quite a spiritual battle within you. I can identify with that. For me it has looked like this: I have/am holding my fist tightly closed with something I do not want to surrender to God. Five or six months ago I had my fist closed so tightly that I didn't even want to think about surrendering. I didn't even want to pray for help to do that. But through this journey of surrender God has never let me go (He remains faithful, even if we are faithless for a season). Every once in a while He put something in my path (a certain CD, a women's retreat...) that kept my heart from becoming completely hardened and making that decision that you fear. Now, ever so slowly my fist is opening and I am able to release to Him what doesn't belong to me and begin to think about resting in what He has provided for me, rather than taking for myself provisions that He didn't intend for me. It has been a process and I can only think that the softening of my heart has been by His grace. As you mentioned once before also, I felt at times completely powerless to do what I knew I ought to (though I really wasn't). The only part I had in it was a heart that still treasured my relationship to God and couldn't get all that way to the place of denying Him. But, getting my heart to a place of surrender has been His work. He is faithful. Keep hanging on to Him and let Him do the work in your heart.<P>I hope this makes sense and I hope I don't get roasted! My feelings are still so fragile. I feel like I am finally able to turn away from where I was, but not able to completely turn all the way back yet. I am standing still, just glad to be at this place of opening my fist and releasing what isn't mine.

I didn't put my signature, which explains the name, so here it is.<P>------------------<BR>Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Hello "sifted"...<P>I really appreciated your words. You really described to the "t" what I believe is the internal struggle I am having...and that is me having to willfuly open a very "clinched fist" and let go..of what was never mine to have in the first place.<P>It is the eternal battle of surrendering our will to God's. I believe the greatest battle Jesus faced was not the one on the cross, but in the garden. In agonizing prayer for 3 hours, he came to the painful place of saying "Not my will be done, but yours".<P>Perhaps the motivating factor that helped Jesus reach that point, was he caught a glimpse of all of broken humanity, including many of us here on these boards, and he saw how much we would need him someday...and it was His love for us that pushed him over that "hump"...to lay his life down in a very painful way...for our good. Now it is our turn to do the same.<P>Toothtrusting...<P>You ask "what is wrong with you WS's?"<P>I can tell you simply...we are hurting. There have been times over the years when one of my children have come home from school and shared a hurt they were experiencing and would tell of an incident at school that hurt them. My first thought would be: "Why...that isn't anything to cry about...get a grip!" <BR> But then...I am always reminded that to them...it is real pain they have...regardless of whether I feel it or not, whether I understand it or not.<P>Pain...is simply that....pain. We come here looking for healing and comfort...a place to bare our sinful souls. We are not saying we are right or wrong ...but sometimes, we are just saying: "This is the way we feel".<P>