What do they want? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

I'm looking at my H's behaviour and trying to figure out just what it is he wants in a woman.My H chose me because I am not a drinker or partier. He respects that and feel secure with me. But the OW are partiers because he needs someone to party with. (I socialize, but selectively- not with people who wake up naked in places they don't remember how they got there or with people who black out.) He chose me because he can trust me with his money. He wouldn't let any of the OW near his money. He chose me because he knows I am faithful. Obviously the OW are not good candidates for that.He chose me because I am educated. None of the OW are educated women, but he isn't either. I think it makes him feel like he has more of a connection with them or that he is smart in comparison?He chose me because I am strong and capable and can handle any financial or emotional crisis. He dropped two OW because they became demanding and couldn't deal with stress.He chose me because I give him freedom to pursue what makes him happy. His OW are clingy and end up getting left for that.He chose me because I am efficient and take care of everything. These OW can't take care of anything, but sex. I think it makes him feel powerful to be the one in control, yet he wants to be taken care of at the same time.He said he wants children, but children with ME. He knows how much I value the family relationship, yet one OW had his kid out of wedlock and he despises her for that. One OW tried to get pregnant (a fact he missed or overlooked) and failed. The other OW is MARRIED and has abandoned her H and child. None of these women are good candidates for a long lasting family life.So, what is it he is looking for? He seems to want everything that I am not, yet dumps it when he has it. The very things he loved in me are the very things he seems to reject in me. So, is he just trying to get away from everything that reminds him of me? Is he just out trying to have some fun to balance out all this stability? Is he just concentrating on feeling good and not seeing the bad stuff in his OW as "bad stuff?"My guess is that your spouses OP chose people that are not like you too- is that correct? Anybody got any answers or feelings about what it is they are looking for? It baffles me.

Imagine - you're H and mine sound a lot alike. I've decided that mine just doesn't know what he wants! So he's trying out his options. Mine's realizing, though, that the "grass is not always greener". childless

Your H sounds very, very confused and immature.My H chose me for the many of the same reasons yours chose you. After 18 years of marriage, and a very stressful last two years, our relationship was a bit frayed, and he "fell in-love" with a co-worker. He loved her because she was caring, mature, responsible, intelligent...the same kind of reasons he had fallen for me initially. Luckily,they did not allow the affair to become physical, and we are rebuilding & doing well now.Good luck.Kathi

Popeye,I think you're right. My H's OW (both times) are nothing like me. I'm talking from careers, values, morals, standards, spirituality and even looks (although thats trivial in my book).OW is a career welfair mother. I've worked at a job my entire worklife.OW goes to bars every night (aka bar fly) and drinks like a fish. I haven't been in a bar for years now and don't really drink.OW is not domestic in any way. I love to cook and take good care of H.OW is aggresive, jealous, possessive and pushy. I allow my husband space and his freedom and have never been possessive or jealous. What's the point.OW has fake tits. I have real ones. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

OW has sex with H's friends if he won't be there for her. I am faithful no matter what.OW is high strung and unstable. I am low key but bubbly and always there for him.OW says bad things about me. I stay on nuetral ground and restrain myself from disrepsecting her to him.OW is needy and not self sufficient. I am strong and can take care of myself and him w/no prob.So what do they want you ask??? Maybe what they can't have until they get it and then, of course, don't want it. Ultimately I think they want the attention that a crisis or affair brings. They are the focal point of everyone's interest and receive nassive attention, whether it be negative or not. Attention is attention when you're in this "fog".Your thoughts?Best, -Jo OW

By the by ... in my last post there was an "OW" showing aft my name. It was a typo. I am not an OW by any means.-Jo

I agree that it does seem like when a man finds an OW it is usually a woman of lower intelligence, looks and morals....but that's the type of woman who gets involved with a married man. I think it goes back to emotional needs... if a man needs more sex...then he will find a woman who is highly sexual...usually she won't be particularily chaste or faithful, but he won't care (at first). If he wants his ego stroked, he will find a needy woman, who will tell him everything he wants to hear to get him to stay with her and away from his wife.If he wants to party, then he will find a woman who will drink with him, usually in a bar in the company of other men.I don't think you will find many men looking for intellectural stimulation or companionship in an affair,...although finding a woman who shares your business interests or leisure-time activities can be stimulating for some men.My particular H found what he was looking for in a stupid,ugly,drunken, sexually liberated OW with lots of problems he can help her with so that he doesn't have to deal with his own problems and short comings. Just my opinion of course. Buffy

Hey Buffy ... don't hold back. Tell us what you really think of your H's OW.I too want to slam the OW, she's been so horrible to me. She can't just have sex w/my H, oh no, she's got to call me and harrass me. Send me hatemail and leave me filthy msgs on my ans machine. She is so aggressive, I didn't know what to think.She was referring to my H as "My Man this" and "My Man that". Thought I was listening to the Jerry Springer Show. Didn't know what to say, because it would be like talking to someone from another planet. Real "street" thie one. Like I sd before, she's been rode too hard and put away wet. Sorry.-Jo

I understand your hostility towards the OW in your lives. My wife had an affair with a married neighbor so that makes her an OW too.The OM was my friend for several years and I knew him well (at least, I thought I did). He is caring, sensitive and not afraid to show his pain. He is very generous and always willing to lend a helping hand. He likes to enjoy life and likes sharing it with those around him. These are some of the reasons we became friends. Of course, he does have a distorted view of loyalty and morality. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

My wife is attractive, intelligent, loving and caring amongst many other attributes. These are some of why I fell in love with her.So, like Kathi said, I think sometimes they choose people who display the characteristics we displayed earlier in our marriages.While the affair itself is a horrible act, that does not, in itself, make the parties horrible people. If that we're true, none of us would be on this site.

Sorry that was nasty[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited May 29, 2000).]

Gonnatry:You are right that we have let our personal experiences with our H's OW over influence our judgments regarding the general characteristics of OWs. Perhaps a bigger sampling of opinions would give us a better idea of what the majority of OW are like. Since we don't have that then we perhaps can't give anything other then our personal experiences and they can be taken as such. Buffy

Buffy and others. I'm in the minority here but I am a betrayed wife also so here's my opinion. The OW in our case is intelligent, funny, beautiful and sweet--no Jerry Springer show here! A very tough act for me to follow (like trying to beat out Grace Kelley) but for some reason my H and I are doing relatively well. OW was able to meet the top 6 of my H's EN's extremely well when after 13 yrs. of marriage and a very demanding career, I admit I was only haphazardly meeting--no excuse, right, but NOW we know how affairs begin! I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT OUR H'S WERE/ARE AFTER! What are your H's top 6 EN's? Were you meeting them? Are you trying to now? You got your POJA going? Sorry for your pain, friends. Sometimes I wish I could hate her--I think I turned the blame all on my H since he's the one who said the vows to me, not her, and she never said or did anything untoward against me (besides the A). I know my scenario is rare here. That's why I felt I had to respond, so now you got your variety of opinions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Leilana: The OW in our case is intelligent, funny, beautiful and sweet...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you are far too generous in your appraisal of this woman. She may be funny and beautiful, but she's also STUPID, selfish, and of low moral character if she got involved with a married man. Okay, so you weren't meeting your H's needs. What about his responsibility to meet yours? What about his responsibility to meet his own? We are all ultimately responsible for ourselves. If we find someone to complete us, we are lucky, but our happiness is our own responsibility.The fact that the OW was so capable at meeting your H's needs points more to her evil, in my opinion. She exploited his vulnerabilities and used them to her advantage to tear your relationship apart- and that is to be applauded and admired? No, use that as leverage so that it doesn't happen to you again. Your H's OW was not a day at the beach. She was a whore just like the rest of our OWs. It's nice that you can see your side in this and blame the H instead of this woman, but in my opinion, you are far too kind to her and far too hard on yourself. Having said that, I must acknowledge that your point of view (focusing on what was missing) is great for healing purposes and letting go.

Sounds like you are the office and she is a vacation.Get it?The office is very necessary but the fun part is the vacation.Give him what she is giving him and then she will have no advantage over you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by popeye: I'm looking at my H's behaviour and trying to figure out just what it is he wants in a woman.1)...he needs someone to party with. (I socialize, but selectively... 2)...it makes him feel like he has more of a connection with them or that he is smart in comparison?... 3)...These OW can't take care of anything, but sex. I think it makes him feel powerful to be the one in control, yet he wants to be taken care of at the same time. ...So, what is it he is looking for? He seems to want everything that I am not, yet dumps it when he has it. Anybody got any answers or feelings about what it is they are looking for? It baffles me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Seems like you have just filled out the emotional needs questionnaire for your H. He seems to be mostly after what you stand for (if your analysis is correct), but could it be that you have become too predictable/"dull" for him and that he needs more variation in his life?Maybe you should look into the SBT methods described in "Divorce Busting" written by Michele Weiner-Davis? Methods like "DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT" and "DO A 180" could be worth a try. <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com" TARGET=_blank>DB-site</A>scandinavian

Buffy, You are right. We all speak from our own personal viewpoints, or should I say painpoints. Given the hurt we feel and anger towards our WS, the OM/OW and even ourselves, it's hard to see ANY redeeming qualities in the OW/OM. However, our WS clearly see something we don't.While I said having an affair does not make you a horrible person, what you (the OM/OW)do that follows discovery may. Harrasment, sabotage, or other actions taken against the betrayed spouse by the OM/OW are clearly acts of desperation to preserve the relationship. I have not had this happen to me so I can not relate to the additional pain Josey must be going through. (Sorry Josey) [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Several months ago, I was also filled with rage, grief, and frustration over my wife's affair. I hated the OM for his betrayal of me, and found myslef quite confused over my feelings for my wife. Did I want to stay married because I loved her or because I loved being married? Not sure! Did I want to call her a b!t@h and kick her butt out? Thought did cross my mind! Did I want to go over and punch out OM? You bet! (but didn't).What has worked for me has been a renewed faith in God and the miracles (small at times) He can perform. One miracle He has performed is taking my hate and much of my pain away. I have been separated from my wife for nearly a month now and I am doing surprisingly well. Now, my wife no longer sees this pathetic, needy, angry, broken down, shell of a man. I am becoming more and more of what I was many years ago, and even better. As a result, she has been warming up quite a bit lately and I feel that our chance for recovery is growing. This is in spite of the fact that the OM lives right across the street.Hopefully, one day He will ease all of your pain and you won't look at things so scornfully. Once you rid yourself of the anger, you can focus your energy on the important stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cuckold: Sounds like you are the office and she is a vacation....Get it?...The office is very necessary but the fun part is the vacation... Give him what she is giving him and then she will have no advantage over you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem with a vacation is that there are mosquitos, missed connections, sun burns, and snotty concierges, but if the liquor is flowing enough and the laughs are plenty, you might overlook that stuff.You also must come home from your vacation and deal with the work you left behind. Vacation is not real life.Dealing with sick children, infirm parents, grocery shopping, paying bills, cleaning up after company over a long weekend, candle light dinners, Christmas, soccer practice, and sitting in the jaccuzi with a glass of wine after a hard day is real life. Being able to trust that the basic necessities in life are provided by someone else if you should need a break from life is the glue that keeps a family together. You make it sound like I should apologize for being that. To imply that I should become a beer swilling, lap dancing, clingy, untrustworthy, insecure woman who chases married men is insulting. I don't want to provide the "fun" that she does, thank you very much. That level of self indulgence comes at too high a cost.To say that he needs what I am not misses the point that he dumped what he thought he wanted...

My H got involved with a woman who is about 8 years older than he, already on her 2nd marriage, with two kids from her first mariage. I know that he enjoys going out with her.. that she enjoys happy hours and hanging out in bars. With her he has learned to roller blade and do other fun things that I am not too coordinated at doing.We met in college, at that time, I enjoyed hanging out and drinking with friends.. but than I grew up and had a career (still enjoyed myself occasionally - but always preferred the smaller intimate group of friends as opposed to the crowded happy hour scene).. than after 7 years of marriage, paying off debts, we had kids.. blammo that is when he has affair. Now I know that men are especially vulnerable to affairs when they are about to become fathers.. as the stats show that. So why doesn't that register with him? he has convinced himself that he loves this other woman. She is his true love because otherwise how could he be so sleezy asto have an affair when his wife is pregnant.. that is his reasoning.... So the bottom line is that she is like I was.. (also she is skinnier than I and I know that he thinks she has great legs). I grew up.. he and OW have apprently regressed.. and I am left being the only responsible adult in the room!!!

Popeye,Your list of virtues that your attracted your husband could have been written by me. I read your other post and know its almost over and Im sorry. I also seem to be headed that way, it just too difficult and emotionally draining, especially since my husband has never been willing to work at any of our problems in the past and is showing that same pattern now.I am reading a book about anger by les carter. My verbal displays of anger have damaged our marriage in a huge way. My H's anger has been much more subtle and just as deadly. H is passive aggressive, wont say much but holds all of it in, a pessimist ("she will never change" talking about me), a procratinator (Ill show her shes not important), etc...any way. The p/a man is often attracted to a strong woman but eventually resents her for different reasons...Just a thought, maybe your H is p/a too.Another thought, my H has told me I dont "need" or "want" him. My strong personality, that attracted him to me, makes him feel insecure and unwanted...I dont know if your H has thought this too but just another thought.Take care Kris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sad In St Louis: Another thought, my H has told me I dont "need" or "want" him. My strong personality, that attracted him to me, makes him feel insecure and unwanted...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Aye, and that's the paradox, isn't it? It seems it is often the things that attract can also repel. My H is also passive aggressive and a conflict avoider. He is a very strong, manly man who needs to run with the boys, needs his independence, and exert his testosterone. He does what he does well, but he can't manage money, wash a dish, or schedule regular maintenance on cars or household things. Only a together woman with a great deal of security and independence can tolerate such a man, but that same independence makes him feel unneeded. Combine that with his inability to articulate his needs and feelings and there is a recipe for disaster. I have spoken to one of the OW and she definitely was SOOO impressed with his physique and manly exploits. She thinks he is just the hunkiest guy, but she doesn't have the intellect to relate to his monetary plans, can't relate to his spirituality, and can't tolerate his need for space. Their connection was very superficial. She coo'ed all over his "heroic" deeds, but do you think they've ever spoken of God or the afterlife? (ha!)My H has intellectual needs too, and you can't have a conversation in a vaccuum! I understand the concept of meeting each other's emotional needs and how that feeds the "in love" feeling, but it seems to put the blame and the responsibility for fixing the marriage on the betrayed. I have a problem with that. Yes, that is a way of making the relationship more healthy and it shares the responsibility for the success or failure of the relationship, but it also gives the betrayer a way out. As I see it, there is no getting around the fact that we are all responsible for meeting our own needs. The only way to happiness is through ourselves. There are too many people with histories of homelessness, abuse, addiction, financial difficulties, lack of education, lack of opportunity, and handicaps out there who are happy and productive people to convince me that outside forces or another person is responsible for how we feel or how we act. If people in those types of situations can find the rainbow after the storm, everyone else can too. Saying, "My needs weren't met" sounds like such an immature cop out! Sure it influences our feelings and our behaviour, but to what extent? Where is the personal responsibility?It's all so pathetic and so preventable. The answer isn't in who WE are or who the OWs are. It lies within. My H can LEARN to be a better communicator. He can learn to appreciate the joys in life and minimize the sadness so that he can be happy. He can learn to confront conflict in non-threatening ways, but he won't. And that is the saddest part of it all.It really doesn't matter what side of the infidelity equation you are on, if you take responsibility for what you've done and make a better you from it, you've succeeded! As long as blame is still being tossed around and someone is passing responsibility for their happiness to someone else, there are bound to be unfulfilled people out there.My H has lived a pretty selfish life. Everything we've done has been in pursuit of his desires. The vacations we've taken are to places he wants to go. The ventures we've embarked on have been his calls. He had all that power and he never used it to create the dream marriage he wanted. I simply adored him. I would have gone to the edges of the earth for him had I only known he wanted me to. I see this over and over in so many of our posts. How do they miss this?I think it's about the whole "how to be happy with what you have" concept. He was always looking over the fence to see what he was missing, so he could never enjoy what we had. That was nice when it was a motivating factor to help him achieve his dreams, but not nice when it lead him away from his marriage. The grass isn't always greener.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My H has lived a pretty selfish life. Everything we've done has been in pursuit of his desires.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This says an awful lot about why he can't stay faithful, don't you think? Sounds like a basic flaw in his thinking...everything is about what he wants at the moment...[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited May 30, 2000).]

Popeye - Were you married to my ex-H's twin?!? Your post hit a nerve - it's like I could have written the words myself - I have even said some of the same things to other people in trying to explain his behavior!! I, too, adored my H, did everything I could to show my love for him, and he did nothing but reject me. What is it with these dysfunctional people, anyway? We had everything, but he wanted only what he could not have, and threw our marriage away to be with a twice divorced piece of trailer-park trash. Go figure!!

If I could articulate as well as you, I could be writing about my own H and how he was in our relationship. I also have heard from others that OW oozes over my H muscles and physique. (he quit working out once we married but started again when he left me for her). My H also always, in everything, would look for the greener grass. Getting him to decided on most anything was near impossible. Even something as simple as choosing a roofer. I still do not have a new roof on our home and the buckets have been full for 3 years...soon...I will be able to take care of it without his blessing without being told how ignorant I am to do something necessary without his okaying it.One area of difference I see between your H & mine, the main area I went wrong, I never adored my H and he knew that. I finally began to see that since Ive had to look at myself and see my contributions. I never realized it until his affair was exposed. From what Im learning though, it may not have made any difference. I guess as long as a person is unwilling to make changes within his/herself, they will never find happiness with anyone. Time will tell.I totally agree with what you said.It really doesn't matter what side of the infidelity equation you are on, if you take responsibility for what you've done and make a better you from it, you've succeeded!ThanksTake care, Kris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by popeye: I think you are far too generous in your appraisal of this woman. She may be funny and beautiful, but she's also STUPID, selfish, and of low moral character if she got involved with a married man. Response: That would mean I fell in love with a stupid, selfish man of low moral character as well, wouldn't it? O.K.--I can already hear your answer! But we are HUMAN. You've never been stupid or selfish or had a moral/ethical lapse in your life? I have!(Quote):Okay, so you weren't meeting your H's needs. What about his responsibility to meet yours? What about his responsibility to meet his own? We are all ultimately responsible for ourselves. If we find someone to complete us, we are lucky, but our happiness is our own responsibility.Response: That's exactly what I said--and thanks to Dr. Harley we have the tools to do this now. I could make myself happy selfishly or I could do it with my partner in mind like I would expect him to do likewise.(Quote): The fact that the OW was so capable at meeting your H's needs points more to her evil, in my opinion. She exploited his vulnerabilities and used them to her advantage to tear your relationship apart- and that is to be applauded and admired? No, use that as leverage so that it doesn't happen to you again. Response: Not evil, Popeye, human. Vulnerable, faulty in judgment, hurting, depressed, alone and desperate. She's not your OW. My H reached out to her the exact same way we both always reach out to people. She met EN's naturally. No calculated moves. Applaud? No. Understand, hell yeah. And you better believe this was a lesson we all won't forget.(Quote): Your H's OW was not a day at the beach. She was a whore just like the rest of our OWs. It's nice that you can see your side in this and blame the H instead of this woman, but in my opinion, you are far too kind to her and far too hard on yourself. Response: Whore? Not this OW. Sorry but it just does not apply here. This is my story, not yours, remember. Me and OW are really nice people--alot alike. She was just in a weak state and really thought she found her soulmate. I've had occasions when I was weak and miserable in my marriage (EN's were ignored--comparing my H to what was around me at the time) and could have easily found myself in her shoes. (Quote): Having said that, I must acknowledge that your point of view (focusing on what was missing) is great for healing purposes and letting go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It hurts so bad sometimes, Popeye. But if we don't elevate our minds above all this hate, we won't heal. We're only here for a short while--we don't know when we're going to leave this world and be judged ourselves. I'm not going to leave it with hate in my heart. Don't know how our stories will end but knock the behaviour if you must, not the people. It's more important to work positively. Being stuck in this black hole isn't going to move your forward. The black hole may help you feel vindicated but it ain't gonna love you back. Good luck to all of you and God Bless.LeilanaP.S. Did we ALL marry the same man?!! This message has been edited by Leilana (edited May 30, 2000).][This message has been edited by Leilana (edited May 30, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As I see it, there is no getting around the fact that we are all responsible for meeting our own needs. The only way to happiness is through ourselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If this is true, then why get married ever? I'm not trying to be flippant. What attracts us to that special someone? They meet (at least some of) our emotional needs. It's precisely because they do that, that we grow to love and eventually marry.But after marriage the deal changes? "Sorry honey. But your happiness is your own responsibilty now. Don't look to me to provide those needs of yours. That was just for courtship."Is it a reasonable expectation that one's spouse will continue to try and meet your needs after marriage--the same need-meeting that drew you to him/her in the first place?Maybe Paul was right. Celibacy is best. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 30, 2000).]

Popeye,You said, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It really doesn't matter what side of the infidelity equation you are on, if you take responsibility for what you've done and make a better you from it, you've succeeded! As long as blame is still being tossed around and someone is passing responsibility for their happiness to someone else, there are bound to be unfulfilled people out there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Have you done this? It would seem from your statements and anger that you haven't finished the process.I realize you are blowing off steam and you have every right to do so. However, the genius of Harley's approach is to realize that the people that keep themselves happy and meet their own needs are very rare people. Most people marry to have parts of themselves fullfilled by another. The reality of the needs is that it provides a mechanism to address a failing marriage, not an excuse for an affair or simply a failing marriage.The reality is in some cases just as Leilana stated. She neglected the marriage and someone else came along that her H, attached to emotionally. However, it sounds as if Leilana's recognition of this has begun to sway things back into her favor.So why am I posting to you? I guess to say it really doesn't profit you, you waste your time blaming everything on your H or soon to be exH. You had a role in the state of the marriage. He messed up big time with the affair, but the state of the marriage was both of your creation. Learn from this so that your next relationship will be a much more successful one. I love the quote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>" the best revenge is a life well lived".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Seek your revenge by living well and happy.To do that you need to learn from this and your chances of revenge will increase greatly. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As for what your H wanted from woman, the answer is very simple. It depends if you are talking about a spouse or a playmate. I doubt your H will marry any of the OW, but he seems to have some fun with them. If he does remarry he will very likely seek a woman somewhat like you. If he marries a playmate, it won't last long.Finally, all of this may very well not be about you, but the state of the marriage and how he feels about himself. He may have needed some sort of validation and sought it in convenient places. I don't know I haven't talked with your H. But rest assured he is/was looking for something to ease some pain in his life.So Popeye, please learn from this but let go of the anger, it is only going to hurt you. Someone on this board has a wonderful saying at the end of his messages "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die". It is true of anger as well.God Bless,JL

I know why I fell for the OM. He was charming, kind, good-looking, and my supervisor. I know why he had an A (he never fell for me) with me. I was 18 years younger than his wife, quiet at work, embarrassed by the bruises my h would leave on me in places I couldn't cover up. The OM thought I would never tell anyone because I had too much to loose because he thought I needed this job and my H would beat me. Scumbag. He thought he could play cassonova without any consequence. That I would be his timid little bunny (I'm small) with no morals (I was a dancer before I got married). Then he'd have both his loving arrogant PTA wife who gives him birthday parties at work and me, his pet whore, the best of both worlds. Only he misjudged me. I didn't need his stupid job and I wasn't afraid my H. And the OM misjudged my H. The OM never imagined my H would come after him. The cowardly OM got what he deserved.

*[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 30, 2000).]

I'm sorry you have such a selfish husband. Why don't you safe yourself a lot of additional unfair treatment leave him?If you stay with him, you'll have to cut the martyr routine to find any happiness. This "look what I've done for you" business isn't going to change anything. It hasn't worked all this time. Find ways to have fun with him or you'll just be a bitter martyr. You can find plenty of attention, sympathy, and empathy in this forum but you deserve better.I would leave the bum.

Leilana, If you've read all or most of what I've posted here, you will know that I've never taken a position of judging or hating. However, I will say that I have called it like I see it and in my book, anybody who messes around with a MM is a whore. (Is that judging? I'd say it's a simple definition). She may have some other redeeming qualities, but she's still a whore. Can people change? Thankfully, yes, but it doesn't change the past behavior.I can assure you I am not in a "black hole" looking for vindication. I'm not even embroiled in this drama anymore. I'm moving on. As for vindication, none is needed. I know my self worth.Doug, I understand that I am different from most people here in that I am not Christian, American, or even Western European. That gives me a different outlook on so many things, so when I say that I believe we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness, I mean exactly that. I never blamed my H for not meeting my needs because I never felt he was responsible for that. Whatever he brought to my life was considered a blessing, not a right simply because we are married. So maybe it is true FOR YOU that you married your wife because of the things she did for you, but that is not true for me.In fact, I feel that only when we honor ourselves, can we truly honor others. This does not mean indulge in every selfish desire that comes to mind. That is not honoring ourselves in a Godlike way. When we are good to ourselves and meet our own needs, we are happier and have much more to give to others. When we depend on others to do what we can do for ourselves, we are disappointed.If your agreement is that you both will meet each other's needs, then no, that shouldn't change, but that was never my deal. I can't give him self esteem. I can do things that make him feel temporary pride, but those kinds of things are intrinsic.Just Learning:If you've read everything I've written, you would know that I am not holding any anger. I am not blaming my H. It is a recongition of the state of things. When you are so embroiled in it, you can't see beyond your own hurt. I am at a place now where I can completely see his frailties and the path he is living now. His wounds are exposed to me because I know this man's heart. How I wish that he could see this and do something to fix it, but he won't. And that is sad.If you've read what I've posted in other places, you would also know that I've acknowledged how I let him down. That is not an issue that is harped on because as each realization occurred, it was addressed. Problems are only problems when they are unsolved.As for the question of what do they want, it was thrown out there for musing. Do I really think he wants a whore for a wife? Of course not. He wasn't looking for a wife. Cuckold, I have left my H. So many of these replies are obviously from people who are responding simply to this and don't know my story. Otherwise you wouldn't be telling me to let go of the anger. Sorry if my insistence seems intense. My in-laws were people who did not listen to me and picked selective topics to focus on that didn't address the entire issue, and this feels like de ja vu.If it seems like I am harping on my virtue it is because I know my value. When someone is stepping on you and degrading your contribution, it's easy to overcompensate or risk losing your self esteem. I have already addressed my healing and resolution of this issue in the Divorcing part of this forum. I am only still here because I thought it best to finish the threads I started and respond to those who have responded to me. I felt it was time to go because I don't need to give my energy to something that I feel is best left behind me, and that is made doubly obvious by the things that are written here today. I don't need to defend this or explain any more. I HAVE taken responsibility for the things I did to contribute to our break up. I have NOT taken responsbility for the things he's done and won't. I have already forgiven him and continue to love him despite the fact that we are not together; however, I recognize that this is not a healthy situation because he is not willing to face himself and change. I have explored all the possibilities of how to put things back together again in a way that can work for both of us. I have given it a very good try. I am walking away with a clear conscience and knowing that this baggage is not following me around. I had to do that for me. I hope you all can do the same. Good-bye

It's a sad thing.... all we want is to be with someone that can make us happy...and 'yes' and we make them happy it's certainly and giving of each other to each other. But yet, we hurt each other soooo much. I put a post up here yesterday but I must have done something wrong cause I don't see it anywhere, I'm completely new here. But I am married, will only be married a year in July...we lived together for 2 years before that. Without going into gruesome details :-) We haven't made love since our wedding day...that's just about 11 months ago. He has no interest...the rejections are just too much for me...I DO have an interest...lots of interest. He has even pushed me away when I've started some stuff on him. I don't even try I haven't approached him in months, it's just TOO hurtful. We have discussed it, not much though, it's like a taboo subject. And I don't want to harp on him all the time about it. But he says he just doesn't want to. What to do? I would love a male point of view on this one. We could discuss more at length. There are other issues. Physical attractiveness being one of them. I am slightly overweight, not hideous or anything, and I have been told i"m very pretty...all my life I've heard that. But I look no worse than when he met me... in fact I have worked hard, and am working hard at looking better physically...but it's a Catch-22. It's almost like I'm not good enough or worth the effort until I'm thin. All his previous girlfriends have been thin. I'm babbling now...so hopefully someone will answer this post. I need to talk to someone. Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by popeye: [BMy H has lived a pretty selfish life. Everything we've done has been in pursuit of his desires. The vacations we've taken are to places he wants to go. The ventures we've embarked on have been his calls. He had all that power and he never used it to create the dream marriage he wanted. I simply adored him. I would have gone to the edges of the earth for him had I only known he wanted me to. I see this over and over in so many of our posts. How do they miss this?I think it's about the whole "how to be happy with what you have" concept. He was always looking over the fence to see what he was missing, so he could never enjoy what we had. That was nice when it was a motivating factor to help him achieve his dreams, but not nice when it lead him away from his marriage. The grass isn't always greener.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Popeye, dear, I hope you haven't left. I'm very late on this thread as I've been away.I must say you articulate so well what we too have lived through. My h too has been successful in his career largely because of that part of his personality that has him always looking out over the fence. But it too led him into affairs.I too adored him and let him have what he wanted in everything. I now see it was not healthy for either of us. The concept of POJA has totally changed the dynamics of our relationship. We seek solutions and even vacations we can both be enthusiastic about.And he has learned the hard way the grass is not greener with the OWs. At the same time we are now spending close to 15 hours having fun together. I wasn't making him feel loved and needed. I don't justify his actions, but as you said so well, it has helped tremendously in healing to realize the dynamics that left him vulnerable.I was actually relieved in a way that both OWs were smart, educated, etc...that he didn't go for total dog food. You are right that they are immoral, but he picked two needy women. You were hard on Leilana, I finally came to grips with the OWs not being totally "evil". However, I could never befriend the OW as she did either.------------------ Cindy