Facing The Toughest Decisiono of My Life - Help!

Marriage Builders

Hi all,I've been a long time poster on the EN forum, but I'm new here, so here's the really quick background.Married 11 years, 2 kids (3 and 5). Two months ago W gives me the "no longer in love with you" talk, we become "separated" in the same house. I've done the best Plan A I could, with good results. Even W admits that things are now calmer, she is no longer angry, but is still not optimistic about falling back in love. We are talking more and more about our feelings, about future plans, etc, but still things were tense.I found many signs of a possible affair, but she always denied it. OK, today I got the proof I needed (but didn't want to face...). I overheard a phone call between my W and the OM. Everything became clear as daylight. They're hot and heavy, have been at it for a while, and have many "dates" set up for the future. I almost threw up hearing this, but I got over the worst of it. At least now I know!My first thought was to sit down and confront the W. I've since decided to back off, take a deep breath, and think about things (and to consult you!). Let's face it, they're already hot and heavy, so time is not of the essence [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.OK, here are the options as I see them:1. Play stupid/ignorant. I guess if I can convince myself that this is just a fling, I can decide to not rock the boat (I have been seeing results from my Plan A!), and to just see what happens. Sure takes a lot of pride-swallowing to do that, but if this dies out in a couple of months, I can probably do it. Has anyone done this? How long do flings last?2. Simply tell her "I know" and leave it at that. Here's what I'm nervous about: I don't know what the consequences will be if I do that! It can range from her breaking down and saying she'll end it (unlikely), to her saying that "yes, it's real, so let's get a divorce", to her denying it. To be frank, I don't know what some of the consequences might be. What if she goes unstable and sneaks out with the kids at night (unlikely, I know, but still). What if she goes crazy and does something insane (suicide, "accidents" for me, I don't know).3. Tell her "I know" and tell her to leave the house or offer that I leave. Biggest issue is kids. We both want to have custody of them, if it came to that.I still want to fix my marriage!! I think this is a fling that will die, I really do! Can I do anything to "help" it die? I'm thinking of anonymous notes to the OM's W, other approaches (any ideas?).Please, I need all the help I can get. I don't want to do anything that will be rash and will cause more problems than I already have. Like I said, it's already been hot and heavy for a while, so there's not much that I see being time-critical.But I also want to do the right thing, without hurting myself or my kids, and without being vindictive. HELP!Leon

Hello Leon,my suggestion is in the books, find the books about affairs, and read up. My favorite is "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman. excellent analysis. His suggestion, is to go about your business, and it will die. However, that does not solve the problem of why is it happening. Harley 's work does does that.I think you should be in the just found out section, not GQ, but post in both. I think you need to take some deep breaths, and not freak out. It happens to lots of people, but it does cause anfer, fear, and instant mess.The other thing that i remember reading here was to find out everything you can about the other man, so the more information you have, the better. then, i cant' remember if you called the harleys, but do so again with as much information as you have.if the other person is married, there is not alot of life to it. If the op is single, then that is more difficult.that's as far as i can go. We all have to make the best decision, but not a haste decision.good luck, i know it sucks, but you have a much better chance with all the information that alot who find this site after D.thl [This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 28, 2000).]

Hi, Leon, I'm still checking up on you.I'm sorry, I strongly suspected for a long time and I am so sorry...I know how hard you've been working.But....you've learned so much. Now, on to affairs. Harley's theory is that they last (on average) 6 months to 2 years AFTER discovery. Pittman does advise letting it die a natural death, but some of our posters have discovered that, BECAUSE of the secrecy, affairs never discovered (meaning your spouse knows) can go on for YEARS. Needs met at home, needs met w/ OP...got it all, plus the "danger and excitement" of the secret. Many times, once that secrecy is lifted, the affair is not so special anymore. That's a tough call. Robert's affair with PT went on for about six months after he left, 8 after discovery.You're right, if you just tell her you know, she may just say, "OK, I'm gone, I love him more than life itself, we haven't been working for a long time, let's divorce." Robert did. Actually....he said that FIRST, THEN told me about PT.This is an individual decision. I'm not the type to be able to hold that sort of news inside, so had I discovered this on my own, I'd have simply told him I knew. When HE told me of his love, I told him that I knew we could get past it, I loved him and let it be. It didn't stop him from leaving, but you'd be surprised how quickly his feelings for her changed once the secret was out in the open. Now, he didn't come back when he knew it was over with them, and he didn't LEAVE her right away ("made his bed, now lie in it" sorta thing), but having this thing out in the open took away much of the excitement, let his eyes open a bit more and he found they didn't share as much as he had believed.Get lots of help...counsel with Steve if possible (Hey, I hear that Mike is paying!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). You don't have to make the decision this moment. Weigh it carefully.Hang in there, take care of yourself. The shock (even though you suspected) WILL eventually wear off and you'll go through emotions you never knew you were capable of. Come here and vent to us. This, too, will pass.We're here with you.Love and prayers,Lori

Hey Leon,Don't give up on us. Your posts have given me so much hope that people can change. I've watched you grow on the board in many ways - all positive.I think Lori is right. The secrecy makes something so exciting that it gives the affair life of its own. With you knowing (and still being supporting and loving in spite of knowing) she is going to have to make choices. They may not be the choices that you want to see, but at least things will start to move out of the hole that you're in now. Don't give in to your anger or depression - you may want to consider the Harley's advice to start on meds for depression.I feel that you should tell her that you know. You've grown so much - you can do this with no LBs.(((((((hugs)))))))H

It *will* probably die a death all on its own, especially with you Plan A-ing, but there are people on this board who have lived with mistresses (or misters?) for decades! You have to set a time limit in your mind as to how long you want to live with this. If life is good there, and life is good at home, she has her cake and is eating it too, so she may not feel that a choice is needed. Having no confrontation may mean prolonging this.How long does it last? That's different for different people. My H moved in with his honey and 2 other people in January. They dumped their other roommates and have been living solo for 3 months. It seems that the first month was good, as he was never around and didn't have two words for me then, but he's been coming around more and more since then, is calling me more, and spending more time here. Didn't take long for reality to set in. This doesn't always happen though, so putting them together with no interference is a risk.Eventually, you are going to have to face this. I don't believe you can have a real reconciliation until you do. Whether it is before or after the affair terminates, I think you need to start planning for this day. Maybe a counselor can help you decide how to approach this and proceed?I don't think you need to think about anyone leaving just yet. That is a big decision- one I made too soon. It's something that is really hard to come back from. I'd leave that as your last resort.

Welcome Leon...I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It is geared to the infidelity issue and has a lot of quick links to many of the most important MB sites... Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A>It's a good summary site!About your post...Great advice as always... ...from many who know!Do plan to bring the affair out into the open... ...marital honesty suggests nothing less.Do plan and stronger and more intense Plan A... ...check out <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>... and make sure you give it a lot more time before you consider Plan B! Plan A is the best chance to have the affair die... it may not be the quickest... but it is the surest!Don't move out... Don't move out... Don't move out... Don't move out... Don't move out... ...and if you missed this one... Don't move out!!! She'll never see ny negative consequenses if you move out right away!... ...she'll just have her cake and eat it too!The idea if counseling is a good one... Ideally for both of you... I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hurting Badly: OK, today I got the proof I needed (but didn't want to face<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>oh jeez.....Leon, this was like a knife in my gut. I'm so sorry.<sigh> Well, I guess we both sort of suspected this, huh? Well, now you have something to really talk to Steve about. As NSR says below, I think you should be operating on a plan toward letting her know that you know. I assume that is what Steve will say. You can't go on living a lie, and your chances for the result you want (a reconciliation) will probably be improved and hastened by getting this out in the daylight. I'm so sorry, Leon. Get some help from Steve, because it will probably get worse before it gets better. You're in my thoughts,Mike

Leon,As you know I am no expert, but I feel compelled to put my $0.02 into the pot. First, I would definitely recommend talking with the Pros, get a counselor or call the Harley's. But here is my very amateur point of view.Your feeling that if forced your W will make a decision. Yes, she will. However, she will ulitmately make a decision if you don't let her know you know. What possible decisions could she make? It has been suggested that she has her cake and eat it too. You are doing a great deal of the child care leaving her time for work and "play". She might decide this is good and do it for years, are you ready for that?She might decide she really has love of her life and leave you with out your mentioning the affair. The fact that you didn't find out could even be considered as evidence of your lack of care for her. I know stupid logic, but you know stupid logic is the hallmark of affairs.She might decide to take the safe choice for her children and just stay married to you, But since you don't know about the affair she will be careful about changing her behavior very much. Don't want to tip you off that something has changed.I think you know where I am going. You cannot fix something if one or both of you don't admit that there is something to fix. I believe that if you tell her you know, you will get the usual denials, then the accusations that you were spying, then the rest of the garbage, but she and so will OM know that their secret is out. Other people are likely to find out about it. That she will know that her behavior and self-image are subject to reevaluation.It seems to me that at that point Plan A, will show your love for her like it cannot really now. You know of the affair and you love her enough to rebuild the marriage. She will have to finally face losing you. I know she may have thought about life with OM, but the reality of losing you hasn't been faced. She also faces the possibility of losing her children to you in a custody battle, since you do as much or more of the child rearing.These realities, will make her reevaluate the affair. It doesn't guarentee the decision she will make but it sure shines a bright light in some dark corners. Finally, you don't know what kind of intestinal fortitude the OM has. He may not be willing to risk everything.Leon, there are many variables, but if you want your W to be honest with you, be honest with her. You now know what is happening: tell her.I am so sorry it has come to this, but at least now you know you aren't fighting ghosts. Hang in there and keep thinking. Only you can make the decision.God Bless,JL

Leon, Hey sorry buddy. Wish I knew what to say. I hope things work out for you. tess

Hi all,Thanks so much for the responses and for the support. Hey, Lori, I came close to the "infidelity diet" last night, but I managed to hold it in [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Anyway, after spending a sleepless night, I decided to stay home today and to think, read, and consult with you guys. Well, as my W was getting ready for work, she asked me what was wrong. At that point I still haven't read your responses, so I wasn't sure what to do. She asked me again what was wrong. I decided I can't go on with this gnawing at me for the next few days, so I calmly and firmly said to her: "I know about you and OM" (how's that, Lori?). At first she seemed frazzled, started asking what I know, how I know, etc. But after having the irrefutable proof that I had, I was able to just ignore these detail questions, and I repeated to her that I know what's going on, and that "how" and "what" is not relevant. I think I made her face reality that she was having an affair. I think until this point she was truly in denial to herself (yeah, I know, your mind can play great tricks on you, if you let it).After letting the new reality settle in, she said that today she will tell the OM that I know about the A. She said that the affair has been going on and off for about 4 months. She said she actually broke it off once, but she got depressed and the A restarted. I made a mental note that when she broke it off that time, I was not doing a Plan A, we were still bickering and fighting, so there was no surprise that she ran back to him.I emphasized to her that all of my recent changes, positive attitude, belief in our marriage and in her (the whole Plan A package) is still valid. I said I knew about the A for a few weeks already, and I still want to restore our marriage. I said I can forgive her for the A. She said she still doesn't know what she wants (i.e. work on marriage or get divorce). I told her that as long as the A is going on, she will not be able to focus properly on the marriage. I said that while she is a big girl and can do what she wants, what I think she needs to do is break off the affair and start working on the marriage, with whatever therapists, retreats, priests, etc, she wants.Bottom line was she said she needs to think about it, and went to work. I gave her a hug and told her that I'm here to support her and that I believe in her.As you guys said, once the truth is out, part of the magic is gone for the A. She now knows that whenever she stays late at work, goes on an overnight trip, or gets a page at midnight, I'll be aware of what is or at least might be going on. I think the next few hours/days are going to be interesting. I think she can no longer live in denial, she will have to look at herself (as a human being) in the mirror, and I don't think she'll like what she sees. I think there will be some kind of a delayed reaction from her. It may range from "I want a divorce" to "I'll break the A off" to attempts at suicide. I'm mentally prepared for all of these. If nothing else, the time I spent on these forums has prepared me for any eventuality. Unfortunately for her, she hasn't done this kind of preparation on her part. We'll see what happens.One parting question: assuming that nothing major happens in the next few days, and I get the impression that the A is continuing, what should I do? I think living in the same house with her and doing a Plan A while she is continuing the affair is too degrading for me and my dignity. Is that when I do a Plan B (i.e. I move out), or should I keep insisting that she either break it off or leave the house? Also, I do know who the guy is, that he is married with two kids, and of course according to my W he too is having marital difficulties (poor fellow, right?). I don't think I'm at the point of contacting his W, but what about sending him an e-mail where I firmly and politely tell him that I know what is going on, and that on gentleman-to-gentleman basis I would like to request that he break off the relationship with my W so that we can try to rebuild our marriage. Does that have any chance of a positive outcome?Thanks again for all your support. Please let me know what you think and how I should proceed.Leon

HB,I think you stay in Plan A for awhile longer. At least a few more weeks, is my guess. You see she will have to start adjusting, this will be occasioned by a lot of flopping around by her. If she sees that you can Plan A through this, then she will see that she hasn't damaged the marriage beyond repair.As for Plan B, that may come but make sure she gets the message first. You love her, and you are willing to rebuild the marriage. You will, if all that I have read on this board holds true, get a lot of anger to cover the guilt. Then the guilt will drive her down, and then she will feel hope, then OM will enter the picture if he ever left.Yes, it will be a rollercoaster, but if you are kind of ready and realize that some of this seems almost as scripted as the famous, "I love you but not in-love" with you stuff that all seem to get, you can stay apart from it. It is really a script and it repeats itself, that is why Harley's stuff works. The commonality is really amazing. You did the right thing by being honest with her, I truely believe. Hang on HB, come post and vent.God Bless,JL

{{{Leon}}}...You have 2 beautiful kids... ...never leave them!They will respect the parent who stayed... ...especially in that they are young!... ...and more importantly... will respect you as the parent that "did the right thing"!If your W leaves... ...there is nothing you can do about it! ...it is part of the "consequences" she will have to live with!You've learned a lot here!!! Now comes the hard part... apply it! We are here to help you!!!As far as the OM... ..."Don't contact him"!!!He is NO gentleman... Any man/woman who interjects themselves into another marriage... is wrong... ...not bad ...not evil ...just wrong!Prayers my friend! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

Hey Leon,I feel for you, buddy. I'm not getting any work done today catching up on your messages here.[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly: She said she actually broke it off once, but she got depressed and the A restarted.Hey, that is a ray of sunshine. Did she expand on why she broke it off? Bottom line was she said she needs to think about it, and went to work.Well, at least you ruined the OM's day [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

They work together, right?I gave her a hug and told her that I'm here to support her and that I believe in her.I think my hug might have morphed into a strangle hold. I give you all the credit in the world for the way you handled this, Leon.I think the next few hours/days are going to be interesting.<Mike gets on knees> Have you talked with Steve Harley? You are flying blindfolded through a life altering sequence here. This is like doing brain surgery on yourself. Get on the phone with him!!I think there will be some kind of a delayed reaction from her. It may range from "I want a divorce" to "I'll break the A off" to attempts at suicide.Well, strictly from reading here, I predict that it will be more vacillating. She is caught in the middle and not being forced to jump either way by you. She may come back with a strong decision one way or the other tonite, but that is just first emotions speaking -- guilt, shame, whatever. I would say that the odds are that she will stay in limbo for awhile until the actions of you or the OM change things. Maybe he'll sway her hand by breaking it off, or offering to move in with her.If nothing else, the time I spent on these forums has prepared me for any eventuality.No, it hasn't, and that is a very dangerous assumption, Leon. I thought the same thing and Harley pointed out that I was way, way off track. You can't treat yourself...you need a professional. Have Harley guide your through this.I think living in the same house with her and doing a Plan A while she is continuing the affair is too degrading for me and my dignity. Is that when I do a Plan B (i.e. I move out), or should I keep insisting that she either break it off or leave the house?These are very valid questions, and I would have the same problems. Plan B is to save your love. Knowing the truth, your lovebank may start hemorra....hemmar... haemmor...bleeding like a mother. That is when Plan B is indicated.Don't do or threaten anything along that line until you talk to Harley. It is a significant move with profound implications, not the least of them legal in nature. Keep in mind that being physically separated may tend to remove some of the guilt she is feeling at the A.Also, I do know who the guy is, that he is married with two kids, and of course according to my W he too is having marital difficulties.Gee, I wonder if his wife knows they are having marital problems yet? The sleeze.I don't think I'm at the point of contacting his W, but what about sending him an e-mail where I firmly and politely tell him that I know what is going on, and that on gentleman-to-gentleman basis I would like to request that he break off the relationship with my W so that we can try to rebuild our marriage. Does that have any chance of a positive outcome?Well, Harley caustions somewhere in an article thatr the problem wit that is, even if successful, the WS will then hate your guts forever for ruining her fantasy affair. Sometimes it may be better for the thing to die of its own weight, if rebuilding your love is your desire.It would be important to learn what the OM's situation is with his marriage. If he is BSing your W on his marriage, and has no intentions of divorcing his W, that will come clear immediately, as there will be an effort by the two of them to shut you up and not contact the OM's W. If you get that signal, then you know you have some leverage there. The temptation at that point would be to say to the guy "If I ever hear of you coming within 500 feet of my W or calling or emailing or contacting her in any way, your W will immediately get incontrovertible proof of your actions within the hour."But this is a subtle and dangerous game....affecting a lot of lives, and some of them children. See what Harley says. And Leon....I'm sorry to say this, but I think it is important...talk to an attorney immediately. The things you say and do at this point may effect your financial situation or your child custody situation in the years ahead if things go poorly. This may be painful to think about, but you being in a strong position vis-a-vis divorce and custody may be a factor in your W deciding to work on your marriage.Mike

Leon, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...I calmly and firmly said to her: "I know about you and OM"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds just right. Personally, my D-day confrontations were much more spirited and much less productive. IMHO, you refrained from LBing and in all likelyhood made some major LB deposits by not being critical, demanding she stop immediately, etc. High-fives are in order. She'll see you as a calm, stable refuge and exactly the "safe place" she will need when she falls off the fantasy. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She now knows that whenever she stays late at work, goes on an overnight trip, or gets a page at midnight, I'll be aware of what is or at least might be going on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep, this'll get to her sooner or later. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think the next few hours/days are going to be interesting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd like to nominate this quote as a candidate for Understatement of the Year. Keep your hands and feet inside the ride at all times. Don't stand up until the car has come to a complete stop at the end. Hang on. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> One parting question: assuming that nothing major happens in the next few days, and I get the impression that the A is continuing, what should I do? I think living in the same house with her and doing a Plan A while she is continuing the affair is too degrading for me and my dignity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I felt this way too, until I managed to take the viewpoint that my dignity has nothing to do with my W's lifestyle choices and everything to do with my choices when faced with challenges. If anything, I feel that my dignity is enhanced by continuing to live in the same house and maintaining plan A in the face of adversity. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is that when I do a Plan B (i.e. I move out), or should I keep insisting that she either break it off or leave the house? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My stance in my particular situation is that I want a successful, happy marriage, and moving out moves me farther away from that goal, not closer. If there comes a time that I no longer want to be married, then moving out is an option. Of course, I also allow my W the same choice, and every single day I wake up and find her still at home, I say a prayer of thanks. Your mileage may vary. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't think I'm at the point of contacting his W, but what about sending him an e-mail where I firmly and politely tell him that I know what is going on, and that on gentleman-to-gentleman basis I would like to request that he break off the relationship with my W so that we can try to rebuild our marriage. Does that have any chance of a positive outcome? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd guess that the odds of this working in your favor would be roughly the same as your winning the lottery while being struck by lightening. Some people have that kind of luck, but I don't and it's not something I'd suggest to anybody. The risk/reward ratio is ugly - too much downside, not enough upside.In my situation, I thought long and hard about letting the OM's W know what was going on. Ultimately, I realized two things: The first was that "telling on" the OM would be an LB to my W and it would only put more distance between us. The second was that OM would actually suffer more, long term, if I didn't say anything to his W. He had an affair and has to live with what he's done. Either he finds enough backbone to tell his W himself and face the consequences, or he suffers - and faces those consequences. The beauty of it is that I get to sit back and enjoy it without even lifting a finger.So my bottom-line answer to your question would be "No, don't tell anybody. It's much more likely to hurt than help."I really feel for you. I've been right where you are and it hurts. You mentioned the special "diet" and wow, can I relate. I've spent many a night in the bathroom. It's rough right now and yes, it might well get worse before it gets better. The good news is that you're handling this just right. Keep it up.Slightly Sane[This message has been edited by o2bsane (edited August 28, 2000).][This message has been edited by o2bsane (edited August 28, 2000).]

Leon,Mike and I seem to have a lot in common today with our thoughts!!I can't seem to get my mind off of you today, please know that you are in a lot of people's thoughts and prayers...you are defintely not alone!!I can't begin to tell you enough how much Dr. Harley has helped me with my situation and I KNOW HE CAN HELP YOU, if you just pick up the phone and schedule that appt. I know there has to be a million thoughts running through your head and you don't know which ones to act on....Steve will help you map out the best plan possible and act on it, now is not the time for you to waste your energy on thoughts that are not worth pursuing...SO CALL STEVE!!!!!!!Lastly, I agree wholeheartedly with Mike about seeing an attorney--you need to do this for yourself and your children, please don't put it off!!!Take care of yourself Leon, and please know that we all care about you!!

Hi Leon:Here's a belated welcome to the infidelity forum. I'm getting into this discussion a little late but I think you have handled things very well up to this point.Unfortunately what you do now will be strongly based on what your wife decides to do. If she decides to stay and work on the marriage (which is the best scenerio possible) then you can continue to Plan A on through recovery. But if she decides she wants to continue with OM then your choices become more limited.If she decides to continue with OM and moves out then you can continue with Plan A until the new wears off the relationship and it self-distructs by itself (which it usually does once it's out in the open) or until you can no longer continue with Plan A and need to to Plan B.The worst scenerio possible is for her to choose to continue with OM and live at home with you for whatever reason she chooses this. This can be an unbearable situation to the BS as the WS considers that everything is out in the open and although they give a half-hearted effort to conceal what they are doing with lies and half-truths, they still inflict a lot of pain on the BS. Plan A is hard but this is harder.I know Harley says don't move out, but sometimes its either them or you to protect your sanity. You've been so strong up to now, perhaps you could continue in this situation, but I couldn't do it.I see a lot of signs that your Plan A has weakened your wife's resolve and made her questions whether she wants to continue with OM. The cat is out of the bag now and she must decide. This time comes for everyone and it really is for the good. Things cannot continue as they were, so they have to change...perhaps for the good or maybe for the worse. Perhaps you have already laid a good enough foundation in Plan A to win you wife over to trying again with your marriage.If the affair is as hot and heavy as you described, expect that it is going to continue...you have to decide how you want to handle that in the future. I wish you luck and continued success in Plan A....I think you'll need it.Buffy

What a beautiful job you did with the confrontation. Now...if you can just prevent yourself from trying to educate or lecturing her, bringing her "conscious" to light (ie- making her feel more guilty), you'll be a candidate for the MB hall of FAME! As the days go on, it won't be easy.You know, I e-mailed a bit with a woman once who actually only e-mailed me to criticize my viewpoint. That's cool, everyone's got their own thing to do. But, she was stuck after her husband's affair in the bitterness cycle. Bless her heart...she seemed so very nice and she was hurting so badly. Anyway, one of the questions she asked was "what kind of example are you setting for your daughter, living with him for a while DURING the affair and then taking him back AFTERWARD without making him accountable." That's a lot like your question of dignity, don't ya think? Fact of the matter is, you got a great answer above. My dignity has not suffered. I am EXTREMELY proud of myself for doing what I had to do to protect what I knew was right when it was the hardest thing in the world to do. My daughter is proud of me and is beginning to truly understand love and committment, standing up for what you believe in. My husband is proud of me for what he calls my "amazing strength". Not weakness, mind you, not lack of dignity, but strength.I know it's hard. I remained in Plan A before and during our separation. I couldn't afford Steve at the time, but a number of our member did as Mike did, posted their sessions and more than once he recommended Plan A during separation and during contact with OP.Look, you've made some terrific progress. She is gonna waffle. She will be angry one minute, crying the next, honest to a fault, lying through her teeth, vowing (and MEANING it) to stay away from OM and calling him ten minutes later. This is to be expected. You'll hear ugly words perhaps, loss of hope, Honey, I couldn't even BEGIN to tell you what's gonna happen on this ride...I never would have believed it.One of the posts that stuck with me the most was from Suse, a wonderful member of the MB family, a former wayward herself. Recovering nicely for a long long time. We were trying to explain to a member how our spouses were suffering as we were. One sentence that stuck in my head (sorry, can't get to GQ1 to quote it) in Suse's response was how important OUR stability, our staying the course, our steadfastness was during this time for the wayward. Darn it, I wish I could find it! Our spouses NEED us to be strong, to be stable, to stay the course and they're muddling through emotions we can't begin to understand. A good solid Plan A (and I hear you're getting pretty good at it! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) is the BEST way to be strong.Look, you'll discover as the days go on and the shock (even though you were preparing yourself) you will become your own worst enemy. Your emotions will backlash, her behavior will become more and more difficult to take, and you will become less and less able to handle it. Don't give up. This, too, will pass. Just try to hold on to all you believe in, all you have learned.Hang in there, ok?Love and prayers,Lori[This message has been edited by lostva (edited August 28, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lostva: Our spouses NEED us to be strong, to be stable, to stay the course and they're muddling through emotions we can't begin to understand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The kids need that too.Great post, Lori.

I don't have any great advice, but wanted to offer you my support. I was really impressed with the unconditional way you handled the situation with your wife.I also found the responses to be enlightening for all of us.I wanted to second or third those who suggested seeking counsel via phone with Steve Harley.I finally found this site, thanks to my lawyer, but after my H moved out...and I hadn't a clue what was going on...just very " different" behavior.Steve Harley is great at getting you to understand what is going on, based on YOUR situation, and helping you formulate a plan.You sound so strong. I wish I had been. My emotions took hold of me one night and BAM!But I still called Steve and had another session and got back on track!!!!Good luck!!!!!

OMG guys, how do I ever thank you for the support, encouragement, understanding, and love that I'm getting from you? (all right Mike, back off a little [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). Seriously, if it wasn't for you folks, I would feel so lost and alone these days!I can't answer your responses individually, but here are some general thoughts. I didn't get to talk to Harley today, I will try later this week. (Promise, Promise!) I did see an attorney today! Bottom line: I have a decent shot at custody (if it came to that); I should not move out (shows abandonment); I should not contact OM in any way. Lawyer said I should tell my W that I insist she get therapy to get over the withdrawal from OM assuming she breaks it off.W called an hour ago; said she's done working and is getting ready for dinner with the OM, where she'll tell him the news (that I know what's up). She sounded like sh_t on the phone; depressed, quiet, guilty. I just smiled to myself. I figured it's about time she got the taste of what I've been living for the last few months.Lori, I will try to follow your advice and not show her my anger and bitterness that are growing by the hour! The more I think about this, the angrier I get! To think, I was sitting here apologizing to her how I ignored her needs in the past few years, how I learned from my mistakes, etc, while she was enjoying herself with the OM while completely withholding all affection and sex from me. She even denied me the "sympathy f__k" that I asked her for once, per Mike's advice. Sheesh! ANyway, I'll keep my anger to myself, and will prepare for her to actually be angry at me for "pushing her" into the A (sounds comical, but I wouldn't put it past her at this point).Anyway, we'll see what she says when she gets home tonight. I'm feeling pretty good about myself right now. I know that my conscience is clear; I think her guilt will hit her like a pile of bricks one of these days. I will be supportive of her when that happens.You'll never believe how much being on this forum has helped me maintain my sanity throughout this ordeal, and to be prepared. If it wasn't for you guys telling me weeks ago that there were all signs of an affair, I probably would have tossed my cookies and LB'd when I found out. Instead, I must say that I handled it with dignity and calm that I never knew I would be capable of. My W is the one turning into a pathetic wimp at this point, but I will show her nothing but love and support at this point (even though I'm enjoying her patheticism).I'll keep you updated after tonight's events.Thanks again for the support; I don't know what I'd do without you guys!Leon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly: OMG guys, how do I ever thank you for the support, encouragement, understanding, and love that I'm getting from you?all right! <Mike puts on the soft music> C'mhere, Leon babbbeee...all right Mike, back off a little [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

).<needle zings> Errr...hey, I knew you were kidding.Bottom line: I have a decent shot at custody (if it came to that);Interesting. Did he specify why? Is it like a stay at home thing? I thought the moms were prohibitive favorites. I should not contact OM in any way.Did he say why there? Just that it could be made to look threatening and hurt your child custody argument?Lawyer said I should tell my W that I insist she get therapy to get over the withdrawal from OM assuming she breaks it off.I'm curious...was this legal advice? Or was he just trying to help the situation ( with the obvious)She sounded like sh_t on the phone; depressed, quiet, guilty.GOOD! sorry...I couldn't help myself..She even denied me the "sympathy f__k" that I asked her for once, per Mike's advice.I wonder why people never recall the GOOD advice I give? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I'm praying for you. The reaction will be interesting. I guess what you would like to hear from her is "It's over, and he is totally freaked that his W might hear about this, so PLEASE don't do anything rash"Hang in there, buddy. You are playing this like a champ.One other thought (I'm adding this in the AM in a more somber mood). Whatever she said last night or this morning... whatever "decision" she have come to or may come to in the next few hectic days....the validity of that in predicting the future is close to zero when weighed against the actions in your control: i.e.: your behavior. In other words, she may say she'll stay with you and break off the relationship, but if you don't executue a strong Plan A over the months ahead to get her back into the marriage, than her statement this week will mean nothing, and she will drift back to this OM or find another. By the same token, if she says or has said that she wants a divorce and is leaving forever to be with the OM, your reaction will have more to do with making that an actual reality 6 months out than her statement during this time of turmoil will.Make sense? I know it is wordy. Take away message: stay cool, surprise her with your strength and love. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 29, 2000).]

Sorry to her this Leon. But you have stood tall and taken it with grace and dignity.I too went to see a lawyer today and put down a retainer. This laywer is soooo tough, when the ohter attorney's find out that she is on your side they will more than likely refuse to take the other spouses case. Hot damn, I'm feeling good. I've got the best attorney on the entire island.Hang in there, you have been nothing but an example of pure love an patience.[This message has been edited by SadnLonely (edited August 29, 2000).]

Just checking in on you, Leon. Glad you have an appointment with Steve and good advice from a lawyer.It's gonna get harder as you on these next few weeks. She will say things that you won't come CLOSE to understanding. She DOES feel guilt and disappointment in herself. Try to resist the temptation to make that worse so that she can "get a taste of it". She can't feel as you do, can only try to understand the suffering, just as YOU can't feel the pain that she's going/been through as well.This affair was not your fault. It was a bad decision that she made and made on her own to cope with something that should have/could have been handled another way. It is her responsibility. It won't help to hear this now, I'm likely to get blasted, but the fact of the matter is, I would bet money that she never intended it, didn't go looking for it, never would have believed she was capable of it and has been and will continue to be in absolute shock that it happened. And feeling pain and guilt that we can only imagine. THAT'S why our spouses believe (temporarily) that these things must be "meant to be". Otherwise, why would they EVER go against everything they ever believed in?Leon, when Robert left me that day, do you know what he took with him? One pair of shorts, 2 shirts and a pistol (with ammo) that my father had left him. He couldn't pull himself from PT at that point, but he was so very disappointed...in himself...that he seriously considered ending his life rather than go one more day with what was going on. I notified his family and had his brother ask for the gun. I found out later he had pulled it out several times to use it and didn't. Though his behavior with me was deplorable, the things he said more cruel than I thought he was capable of, I found out from others that he spent much time pretty much falling apart, violently condemning himself, refusing to eat, etc. No, my friend, your discovering the truth is not the first suffering your wife has done over this, nor will it be the last. Please understand that. She caused this pain, for both of you, but don't discount what she has been going through either.You know, even though our spouses made this horrible decision, it does NOT absolve us from our responsibility. We did not "deserve" this, I would never say that. However, through ignorance or selfishness, we DID contribute to the state of our marriages. Your apologies and your effort at personal growth are still valid and necessary. Did we push them there? No, absolutely not. Things should have been handled another way. They should have come to us. They should have TOLD us. But did we make that possible? Did they tell us in a million different ways and we just weren't paying attention? Did WE ignore these signals for so long that good people who really care for us (and most do, you know) slipped into patterns of behavior that are generally contrary to their nature? How much were our spouses ALREADY hurting and for how long before they let something like this happen?I'm not saying these things to absolve her of the responsibility of this decision. It was wrong, it was cruel and it is her responsibility, just as Robert's decisions were his own. I guess, for me anyway, understanding, trying to realize that things MUST have been horrible for someone that I've known all these years to be honest, loyal, faithful...an absolutely wonderful human being, to have slipped in this way.....was the key to controlling my anger. I was hurt. I did not deserve to be hurt like that. But understanding helped with the anger, kept my focus and made healing easier. Not BLAMING myself, that's wrong, just accepting my share of the responsibility of the state my marriage was in...realizing that he had been hurting more than I could imagine, perhaps for a long, long time, before anything like this could have happened. That he must have been at the "end of his rope" as many of us have been in order for his thinking to short-circuit as it did.Take care of yourself now. The rawness will ease with time and effort and you will think more clearly. (You're not doing badly now in the thinking department, but, trust me, you'll get clearer.) We're here for you.Love and prayers,Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lostva: I'm not saying these things to absolve her of the responsibility of this decision. It was wrong, it was cruel and it is her responsibility, just as Robert's decisions were his own. I guess, for me anyway, understanding, trying to realize that things MUST have been horrible for someone that I've known all these years to be honest, loyal, faithful...an absolutely wonderful human being, to have slipped in this way.....was the key to controlling my anger. I was hurt. I did not deserve to be hurt like that. But understanding helped with the anger, kept my focus and made healing easier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lori - I am amazed at your post. You have so much strength!! Your words, as always, give me hope. I am the WS, and I am trying to work my way out of this fog... and reading what you wrote gives me hope. My H has been incredible through all of this.We worked up the details for a legal separation last night, but neither one of us will admit to wanting a divorce. I think we are both looking at this as a beginning of the end - not an end to us, but an end to the trauma we have been through since January. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It means more than you know... and gives me hope. {{{{{}}}}}lost_in_love

LIL,Please read many of Lori's other posts. She is a remarkable woman and she is only just getting warmed up on this thread.HB,Listen to what Lori has said, I doubt seriously if it could be said better. Just remember you are just at the beginning. So keep the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grind stone (and try to work in that position. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Seriously, you are going to be tested like you never have in the coming weeks and months. You have done great so far, but there is a marriage to rebuild if your W decides on it. And you will be the key player in rebuilding the marriage as you were in the state of the marriage before the A.Hang in there HB. You have done great so far, but the mid term and the final exam are still to come.God Bless,JL

Leon,Although I'm sorry for your situation, you did great! sorry for my suggestions to wait, that was not good, but you handled it remarkedly well, and the worse is yet to come. This marks the beginning of a very big growth period for yourself and your wife.The next step is the book SAA, Surviving an affair, to go along with any counseling. I read the books, they are cheaper than talking at $95 per hour, and you can reread them as many times as you want.However, one question I learned through my experience, is that I was not communicative as to my needs, and your W probably needs to learn how to increase communications with you. And that will be the area that will be the hardest, and you will need to practice making the house "Safe" for her to vent any feelings, good and bad to get over the withdrawal.keep the faith, post here, and you have our support.thl[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 29, 2000).]

Hi Leon,I noticed that you recently replied to someone's post on the EN Forum, so I know you are out there.....if you want to talk about it, I was wondering what happened when your wife got home from her dinner with the OM last night? If you don't want to say anything I certainly understand!! Please know you are in a lot of people's thoughts and prayers!!!!

Hi all,Update time: W came home last night about 10:00 PM (i.e. 2.5 hr "dinner" with the OM). I was cheerful, but she looked like crap. We made some small talk, then a meaningful pause. She finally said: "Well, I told him". I said "I think you did the right thing", and asked if she wanted to talk about it. She said "No, unless you want to", I said "No". She then said "goodnight", went into her bathroom, and started bawling. I went to my room, closed the door, felt sad for a microsecond, then smiled. Sorry, Lori, but it felt good to know that she is finally feeling at least a fraction of the pain that I've been dealing with. I know it's not something I will share with her, but unlike the previous night, I slept like a baby last night. I doubt that the W had such a restful sleep. This morning I peaked into her room. Guess what? That fricking pager that she's been sleeping with for the last month was not there! It was downstairs in her purse, where it belonged. I don't know what they talked about over dinner last night, or what they decided to do, but at least they both know the free ride is over, and the pager being gone is a good sign, in my book.This morning we drove in together (as usual). We chatted briefly about miscellaneous stuff. Then she started getting glassy eyed, we drove the next ten minutes in total silence, and close to her work she was outright breaking down. I didn't know what to say, so I said "I know you are hurting, and I'm sorry for your pain. If it's any consolation, I'm hurting too". I think the last part was stupid, but oh well. She said she probably needs to take a day off, but can't do that today. I said that I think she should consider talking to someone about her feelings and try to get some emotional help; I added that I'm probably not the right person for that right now. (Was that the right position to take? In general, I'd love to be able to have deep conversations with her again, but I think she needs to get some things cleared up in her mind first, right?). Anyway, she said she might see a pastor from our nanny's church. I thought that was a positive sign, even though she didn't promise that she'll do that.In general, I think the tears I'm seeing now are more of depression and disappointment at being caught than they are tears of regret or guilt. Maybe a little of each, but I can't tell. I will just continue my Plan A as if nothing has changed (which in reality is true, since I already suspected for a long time). I think the fact that the cat is out of the bag is going to change things for the two love-birds, so I'll just wait and see what develops on that front. Like I said, the pager being "out of the picture" tells me that perhaps their honeymoon is over. Time will tell.We are going to a co-worker's engagement party after work today. I was wondering if maybe she would opt to back out, with the recent revelations, but she still wants to go. I think that's good, it will give me a better chance to Plan A with her. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: [QUOTE] Bottom line: I have a decent shot at custody (if it came to that);Interesting. Did he specify why? Is it like a stay at home thing? I thought the moms were prohibitive favorites. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Primarily due to the fact that I get home by 4:30, while she's never home before 6:30, and sometimes out till 9-10 (even w/o the OM in the picture). This is by no means guaranteed, and when he started bringing up the possibilities of psychological analyses, seeing which parent the kids run to in time of need, etc, my heart really sank. I don't know if I can put my kids through this. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I should not contact OM in any way.Did he say why there? Just that it could be made to look threatening and hurt your child custody argument?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, could be considered harassment, etc. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lawyer said I should tell my W that I insist she get therapy to get over the withdrawal from OM assuming she breaks it off.I'm curious...was this legal advice? Or was he just trying to help the situation ( with the obvious)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The latter. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She sounded like sh_t on the phone; depressed, quiet, guilty.GOOD! sorry...I couldn't help myself..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, I agree with that too. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to show this side of me to my W, but I get a lot of strength these days from knowing she may be seeing how the shoe fits. I think this is different from being vengeful, I think I just feel somehow vindicated by this. I hope these feelings go away before I empty out my Love Bank, though. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lostva: It's gonna get harder as you on these next few weeks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Darn, why do you guys all keep telling me this?? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I'm buttoning down the hatches, preparing for come what may. But for crying out loud, when does it start getting easier/better?? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Try to resist the temptation to make that worse so that she can "get a taste of it". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I will resist showing her these feelings, but I can't help feeling these feelings. When do they go away? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm likely to get blasted, but the fact of the matter is, I would bet money that she never intended it, didn't go looking for it, never would have believed she was capable of it and has been and will continue to be in absolute shock that it happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lori, I agree with you 100 percent. I will take it one step further and claim that she did not even think that what was she was doing was having an affair! I'm not joking here, guys. It is clear as daylight to me that she had rationalized in her head that she was just trying to see what she wants to do about the marriage, and she did feel that she was suffocating in too much pain in our last couple of years of marriage, so she wanted to look at her options. When I informed her yesterday that I knew about her and the OM, it took her several minutes to get used to my calling it an affair. In fact, only after I explicitly told her that she was having an affair did she stop trying to call anything else, and even then it took her a long time to get used to the "A" word. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She caused this pain, for both of you, but don't discount what she has been going through either.You know, even though our spouses made this horrible decision, it does NOT absolve us from our responsibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lori, this is precisely why I keep telling myself (and her) that I am still eager to rebuild our marriage. I know she was in an awful amount of pain beore this A started. I now know where this pain came from (all the MB and Needs stuff), and even though I know I always meant welll, I know she felt unloved/ignored for many years. That will never happen again, with the learning and growing I've done recently. I don't want to go on a "pain-comparing" exercise. For my scientifically minded friends, I express the situation as follows: my W was in some pain for a long period of time, and I was in intense pain for a short period of time, but the area under the curve might be equal or even larger for her! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Take care of yourself now. The rawness will ease with time and effort and you will think more clearly. (You're not doing badly now in the thinking department, but, trust me, you'll get clearer.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lori, a question for you. Even though I'm still Plan A'ing, should I now try to back off a little more, to give her space and time to figure things out? Or should I still try to be engaging (in a happy way), suggest dates/other activities? What do you think she needs most at this time, company/support or solitude? I suspect it's the solitude she needs, but I'm afraid if I back off too much, she'll feel like I'm not there to support her. Thoughts? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Just Learning: You have done great so far, but the mid term and the final exam are still to come.God Bless,JL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>JL, I feel like we (my W and I, not you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) are at the point of our lives where we look in the mirror and see what we're made of (gosh, I'm just full of mixed metaphors and dangling prepositions today, ain't I? <watch it, Mike!> )Anyway, I feel like in the last two months I have made some major assessments about who I am, what my relationships mean to me, etc. And I haven't even read "Life Strategies" yet! I feel like I got through this experience with my head held high. I think my W is just entering this period, where she needs to examine herself as a human being, a W, a mother, a carrer person, and whatever else. No one knows what she'll find out about herself, but I believe she will find the will power to find the "good" person inside of her and to do the "right" thing. I just don't know who this "good" person will be, and what is the "right" thing that person will decide to do! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wifeofcop: I was wondering what happened when your wife got home from her dinner with the OM last night? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now you know! No convenient "accidents" for me, so I'm thankful for that, at least!Leon [This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 29, 2000).]

Oh Leon,I just read all of this thread. My heart goes out for you! You're such a great guy and you've come so far with all of this. Many good thoughts for you over the next few days. Lori [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bangarra: Oh Leon,I just read all of this thread. My heart goes out for you! You're such a great guy and you've come so far with all of this. Many good thoughts for you over the next few days. Lori [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Lori! Thanks for the support. I read your thread on the EN forum, and I am sorry for your situation as well. I hope your H jumps off onto the "right" side of the fence. My goal at this point is to learn all I can to make sure that my "saga" takes me from the GQ II forum towards the Recovery forum, instead of the Divorcing forum. Wish me lucK!!Leon

Leon,Just don't be too cheerful with the W right now. As for her talking, if you can let her talk with you. It will be hard but if she comes to feel that she can say things to you that she knows hurts and you won't blow up, she will feel safe with you. This will help open up the communications. You see she and OM no doubt had many talks about their relations with their spouses. You want those conversations happening with you. So if you can stand it, become her sounding board.You said something in your last long post that struck me as something you want to get across to your wife as soon as practical. That the integral of pain, may be larger for her than you. Why do I say this? On the one hand you want her to feel guilty about what she has done. But it seems that that very guilt can be a hugh impediment to rebuilding the marriage.So it seems to me the more you can reduce the guilt the more likely it will be that she will be able to fall in love with you again. I don't mean be a doormat, but honest discussion will help.Finally, one other thing that has constantly struck me during your postings. Your W has seemed to be somewhat in tune with your feelings. She has inquired when you have been down. This isn't all that common during the affair or the fog. It means to me she knows and has known that what she was doing was wrong and that your feelings do/did count with her. That is why I jumped you a long time ago about being honest with her. It does seem that she has responded positively when you have been honest with her. Keep it up.HB, I may be premature, but I see great hope for you two. I think that you will both come to view this whole thing as a watershed event in your lives. A positive watershed event at that. I know that sounds perverse. Further, your W sounds like a good woman and we know you are a good guy. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Right Mike??? Talk to me Mike.Oh! Well, Mike must be out to lunch. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

HB, you are doing well, keep you eye on the ball and do your best, I think you are married to a good woman. If you agree tell her that.God Bless,JL

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For my scientifically minded friends, I express the situation as follows: my W was in some pain for a long period of time, and I was in intense pain for a short period of time, but the area under the curve might be equal or even larger for her!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I love the way you put this [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

And, you may well be right...I have read all your posts but often don't respond bcs you already have such wise people giving you advice. But, I AM awfully impressed with how well you are doing. Even doing everything "right" it takes time...it is easy to get discouraged that things don't happen faster, or that they seem to go up & down. So, check that seatbelt!I also would second the advice to help her with her feelings if you can...I think being my H's "sounding board" (hhhmm, maybe it was more of a "wailing wall") was a great opportunity to build emotional closeness. Hang in there--Kathi[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited August 29, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Just Learning: Leon, As for her talking, if you can let her talk with you. It will be hard but if she comes to feel that she can say things to you that she knows hurts and you won't blow up, she will feel safe with you. This will help open up the communications. You see she and OM no doubt had many talks about their relations with their spouses. You want those conversations happening with you. So if you can stand it, become her sounding board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, you know we actually had a couple of really deep conversations over the past couple of weeks; what I called DIY therapy. I thought these were really good for us. Of course she claimed in both of them that she was not having an A and knew that jumping into the arms of another man would be the wrong thing to do. Hmmm...Still, I agree that it would be good for me to become her conversationalist again. I just want to make sure the dust settles before I try that again. But like I said to Lori, I also want to make sure that I don't give her so much space that she thinks I'm becoming distant. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You said something in your last long post that struck me as something you want to get across to your wife as soon as practical. That the integral of pain, may be larger for her than you. Why do I say this? On the one hand you want her to feel guilty about what she has done. But it seems that that very guilt can be a hugh impediment to rebuilding the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Glad you liked my "integral" description. I did use this example with my W yesterday, although she might have been too distraught to really hear what I was saying. I did try to tell her that I know she was in a lot of pain, and I never tried to blame her for the A. JL, I agree with you and Lori that my goal should be to let her know that I forgive her and that I want to help her deal with the pain and guilt. I'm trying to give her this message, but without overdoing it or pushing it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> HB, I may be premature, but I see great hope for you two. I think that you will both come to view this whole thing as a watershed event in your lives. A positive watershed event at that. I know that sounds perverse. Further, your W sounds like a good woman and we know you are a good guy. I think you are married to a good woman. If you agree tell her that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I hope you are right about this being a positive watershed event. I truly do, and I personally agree that it has the potential to be that. As far as my W being a good woman: JL, if you only knew... The woman I married was truly a blessing in my life. She is the sweetest, most wonderful, most amazing, and most incredible woman I have ever met. She has given me two wonderful children, and she has been a blessing for me for the past eleven years. I know that no matter what she did, she did it not because she is a selfish and non-caring person, but because she didn't know how else to deal with the pain of her feelings over the past few years. Her biggest "fault" is that she was so much of a giver, that she followed the exact path of the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" book, and didn't complain or ask for anything until she completely burned out. Right about that time I too followed the book's script, woke up, and started trying to give like I never had before.JL, my W is a wonderful woman. I truly hope one day when we rebuild our marriage, we can all get together and I can say a toast to all you guys for being my guiding light through this ordeal. I can only pray for that outcome.Leon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning: I know that sounds perverse. Further, your W sounds like a good woman and we know you are a good guy. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Right Mike??? Talk to me Mike. Oh! Well, Mike must be out to lunch. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Leon is top drawer, pick of the litter, simply the best.And from what I can see through my Webcam surveillance, his wife is pretty hot looking.P.S. JL, I agree with your advice to Leon. Leon, make sure your W never has a hint of a whisper that you are somehow a little gleeful about the current situation. I know you are just venting here, but try to keep the smile off your face....I know I would struggle on that. I think she would really resent that....she needs you to be sympatico, not happy about her pain.Besides, we really haven't found anything out yet...are they going to continue to see each other? What was the OM's reaction? Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Besides, we really haven't found anything out yet...are they going to continue to see each other? What was the OM's reaction? Mike<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Mike, I sure don't know what transpired at their meeting! I doubt they completely called it off, since my W hasn't said that to me. Perhaps they decided to "cool it" and "see how it goes". Perhaps they decided to continue. I told you guys that my W didn't "sleep" with the pager last night. That may be a good sign. Or it may just be a sign that she now knows she can't talk to him from our house anyway, so no sense having the pager nearby.Frankly, I'm not sure I care too much if they cut this off right away or still continue on some inertia. I firmly believe that I changed the rules of the game by letting the cat out of the bag. They both now need to see what they're made of. They each have a spouse and two kids. I doubt they have plans to dump their spouses and marry each other. I think this was more a recreational activity for them.The real test will be what my W says and does around me in the next few weeks. I understand all your warnings about possible conflicting and wildly oscillating emotions, so I'll try to look for the mean rather than at the oscillations. Hopefully some pattern will emerge.Leon

Leon:I just got back from holidays, and was so upset to see what has transpired in your life this last week. But I am also incredibly uplifted to see how you are handling it - it truly gives me pause about the human spirit, and what we can face when we need to. What does not kill us, makes us stronger. Do you ever wonder why we are given these trials in life? It is amazing how these things really make us realize what is important, and help us to learn about others, but most importantly, about ourselves. These trials also show our true nature, and without a doubt, Leon, yours is shining through. Hang in there, your strength and clarity give me so much hope for you and your W.Maggie

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hurting Badly: Frankly, I'm not sure I care too much if they cut this off right away or still continue on some inertia.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well....Harley's teachings would lead you to believe that until they cut it off completely and your W goes through at least a few months of total NO CONTACT, she will not be ready to work on your marriage.As you now know that they work together, and you know how important her career is to her, some of the challenges begin to shape up.Hang in there, buddy. Get on the phone with Steve. There are some wicked spins and turns ahead.Thoughts are with you,Mike

I haven't checked the board this much in months.Ok, good going. Keep venting here, that's what we're here for. I forgot to print the darned post and can't read all your questions, but I'll tell you, you've gotten some great advice from these guys.Now you'll see how much your Plan A is working on you in another way..what to do with her. It's now your job to "read" her, to determine, without a great deal of specific input whether she needs, comfort, space, a night out, whatever. Expect those needs to change on a moment by moment basis! Doesn't make your life easy, but you can do it.Some of the best advice you have received is to allow her to talk to you, to use you as a sounding board (or wailing wall - I love that) no matter WHAT the topic. If she breaks it off (and honestly, it might be better if she didn't right this second), she will go through withdrawal and she will miss the needs he was filling, the way he made her feel inside and confuse that with missing HIM! You may have to hear it and console her. (I know you're hurting and I'm sorry...how can I help? is sufficient. We're not superpeople). You will be the one that catches it when she is frustrated and angry. The one she ignores, the one she runs to. Your job, no matter what she says, encourage her honestly, NO NEGATIVE reactions! That doesn't mean you tell her that something doesn't hurt - that's dishonest. But that you don't react so strongly that it's better for her not to share with you. You are now her friend. Be that friend through the hardest time of BOTH of your lives. You will be tested, she will not trust you, over and over again you will prove yourself until eventually, it becomes real for her.Oh, why did I say it might be better if it doesn't end right this second? One of the things that helped Robert and I recover so relatively easily (or so they tell me! ) is that, by the time he asked to come home, it was OVER for him b/n him and PT. No love was left. He cared still, ok. But the "in love" crap had died. I didn't have to deal with someone wondering if they had passed up on the "love of their life" and sacrificed themselves for our marriage. Know what I mean? That's why I recommended telling her you knew, bringing it out in the open, removing the secrecy, the most important thing they shared. Now, the relationship can begin to die. They may want to hold on to the feelings for a while, it's a big blow to think you almost sacrificed everything for something that was really nothing, but it WILL begin to die. That will, eventually, make your life and recovery easier.How long? Honey, who knows. You'll feel miserable for a while and one day realize that you didn't feel miserable, just terrible, for a few minutes that day. And then a few weeks later you'll realize you only felt miserable for a while each day and you actually enjoyed an hour yesterday. It eases...takes time and work, but it eases. Doesn't go away but doesn't cloud your every moment anymore. We've said it before, buckle up and hang on tight, this ride ain't for wimps!You're doing great. You both will suffer terribly for a while, but, this, too, will pass. Stay strong, stay focused, you can do it.I, too, see a lot of hope for this marriage. Just that fact that YOU recognize that she is a wonderful woman, not scum of the earth for this mistake, is the best sign of all. That has amazing power, trust me. Our hardest and first lesson toward healing is to separate the person from the deed.Hang in there....there is a light at the end of this tunnel, it's just covered by fog right now and the tunnel is too darned long!Love and prayers,Lori

HB,How are you doing today? Just checking.JL

Hi all,Maggie, thanks for checking in on my post and giving me your encouraging words. It does mean a lot to me!Let me respond to Lori first, and then I'll give you all an update. Some interesting stuff transpired, so read on. It's good stuff, I promise! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lostva: I haven't checked the board this much in months.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lori, for what it's worth, I cannot tell you how much you and others have helped me in this crisis. Your encouragement and guidance have essentially provided me with a roadmap for what to expect as things unfolded. You guys prepared me for almost everything that transpired, and I think this helped me handle the events in the proper fashion, without fights, outburts, explosions, etc [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. So my message is, if you can, PLEASE keep up with my story to help me through it! I will be forever in your debt, and who knows, you may actually be able to save a marriage in the process! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It's now your job to "read" her, to determine, without a great deal of specific input whether she needs, comfort, space, a night out, whatever. Expect those needs to change on a moment by moment basis! Doesn't make your life easy, but you can do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is why I need you guys! This is exactly what's been going on, and having your advice in advance is really helping me along! She is really flopping around by the hour, and I'm trying to pay careful attention and make sure that I don't smother her when she needs space, yet am there when she needs support. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Your job, no matter what she says, encourage her honestly, NO NEGATIVE reactions! That doesn't mean you tell her that something doesn't hurt - that's dishonest. But that you don't react so strongly that it's better for her not to share with you. You are now her friend. Be that friend through the hardest time of BOTH of your lives. You will be tested, she will not trust you, over and over again you will prove yourself until eventually, it becomes real for her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to worry, I got my part down pat! I am being her friend, she is testing me, but I am handling it well (so far!). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I, too, see a lot of hope for this marriage. Just that fact that YOU recognize that she is a wonderful woman, not scum of the earth for this mistake, is the best sign of all. That has amazing power, trust me. Our hardest and first lesson toward healing is to separate the person from the deed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks!OK, guys, here's the "interesting" update I promised. As always, this will end in a question to you all [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.We went to a co-worker's enagagement party yesterday after work. The W was friendly, none of the crying that I saw earlier. We had a good time at the party. On the way home, she got a little of her irritable tone back, and then she said something that blew me away. You may remember that when I told her I knew about the affair, in the conversation that followed I told her that I still want to fix our marriage, and I will do anything she wants to try to fix things, such as therapy, Harleys, priests, etc. I also mentioned the Retrouvaiile program. Well on the way home yesterday, she suddenly asked if I still want to do the Retrouvaille retreat weekend?! Granted, she said it in a somewhat irritated tone, but the fact that she brought it up without any prodding from me almost caused me to veer into oncoming traffic!What do you guys make of this development? It seems to me that it's a good sign; it's not like I was pushing her and she agreed; she brought it up herself. Granted, I could argue that she just wants to do this so she can then rationalize to herself that she tried everything and now it's OK to go on with the divorce, but I think that's too pessimistic an outlook. I think it shows that she truly wants to try to get her feelings back. And frankly, if she can't, then we probably shouldn't stay married anyway...OK, so what about it? Any experiences with Retrouvaille that you care to relay to me? Neither of us is religious, but they claimed that doesn't matter. Also, the weekend is not for another two months, which I think is actually good because it will give her time to get over the OM, and to start really thinking about our marriage.So, what do you think?LeonPS, Mike: you're gonna be proud of me! I set up a session with Steve for Friday!!!!!!!!!!!! I told them to charge it to your account, if that's OK?? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 30, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly: OK, so what about it? Any experiences with Retrouvaille that you care to relay to me?Never heard of them. But I am thrilled your W broached the subject! That is great, Leon! Huge development! <high five>She probably said it in a feisty tone because she was scared of/expecting rejection. The guilt talking. I would jump all over that olive branch, brudda. I set up a session with Steve for Friday!!!!!!!!!!!! I told them to charge it to your account, if that's OK?? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hey, if I won the lottery, I'd fund a phone counseling charity for this board.No joke.

Leon,I have no experience with retroville (sp), but people who have posted here, have felt it to be very good. I would think it might help especially after two months. It should give all this time to settle out a bit.Did you say yes to her? Or did you just let it slide for awhile? My guess is that each day and during the day the feelings are going to change. In my terms the data is going to have a hugh scatter to it, but I think the idea is to look at the trend of the data on a weekly basis. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You know what I am talking about.This is all so new that I am sure your W has no idea what to do with it. Has she mentioned at all what her plans are? Is OM in or out for awhile? Is she going to give the marriage a chance?Hopefully, as you two talk and she finishes testing you, you will learn the answers to these questions if you don't know the answer already.How is she acting in general? Down, kind of the same, or just focussed?Keep us posted and God Bless You and Your Family,JL

Here's the scoop on Retrouvaille: <A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.retrouvaille.org/</A> It's hyped a lot on the Divorce Busting forum, so I figure it may have some merit. I did agree to going to this retreat (shoot, I was the one that suggested it originally!), but I also understand that she can change her mind 100 times between now and then. But so what?JL, I understand your point about riding out the oscillations and looking for the trend. What I've seen in the last couple of days is that she is quieter, more subdued (depressed), and more tired. Probably all normal, given how I popped her bubble just two days ago. I'm just trying my best to make sure I catch her when she comes crashing down from her recent cloud. It's kind of hard, there's a lot of cross wind, and I keep running left to right trying to make sure she lands in my arms and not on the rocks [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.As far as what she and the OM decided, I'm not sure now is the right time to ask. She knows I'm dying to know, so I'm sure she'll tell me when (and if) she is comfortable. I suspect they broke it off (at least on a trial basis). Perhaps the "amazing" OM got cold feet when he realized what he may stand to lose, and that his 'lil wifey might kick him out of the house if she is not as understanding as I have been [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. Who knows? All I know is my W ain't sleeping with the pager anymore, so if nothing else, their encounters will be more discreet, and won't keep jabbing me in the heart every time I hear of a "late meeting" or late night "sweetie" talk. That's a big improvement for my sanity.BTW, I developed a new analogy that I want to try out on you and see if you think it's patentable. I figure that after the affair is brought out into the open, any future contacts between them will lose the mystique and the magic that was originally there. Given that they now know that I know about their encounters, any future contact will feel like I am either there in the room with them, or at least right outside the door. I don't know about you, but I think it would be pretty hard to get it on with someone if you knew their spouse was either watching or at least listening in, wouldn't it? (Exhibitionists etc excluded, obviously). That's why I think uncovered affairs tend to die off. What do you guys think of this analogy?Any more Retrouvaille feedback? Any chance it can somehow backfire, rather than just not help?Leon [This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 30, 2000).]

Leon,I am NOT the person to be giving you advice, just wanted to let you know I've been reading and thinking about you.Learned a lot from your posts and replies. You're hearing from the best. I can see that you have surges of energy it seems. Just get ready for it to drain. Your running on stress and adrenaline right now. Be ready when you hit the bottom. Take vitamins!! Drink juices! (I mean it, it can really physically affect you and really sneak up before you realize what's happening.)Everyone's told you get ready for ups and downs. You asked someone here when will it get better? Well.... For me it got better about a month after he was out of the house. I wasn't happy, of course, but leveling out in my roller coaster. The thing is, Leon - these monotonous days run into each other and it feels like the same routine over and over and I'm treading water and not going anywhere. That's the hardest part for me. I thrive on stress and adrenaline. I can take that. I can't take waiting, waiting, not knowing, waiting and waiting.....But as JL tells me weekly: Patience and Time. I didn't mean this post to depress you. I just wanted you to know that the extremes lessen relatively quicly. Sometimes it's harder to hang on level ground, though.I'm so impressed with your fortitude. I'm glad you and I found this site before we found out about the A's. It definitely has given both of us a competitive edge if you will. We have the tools, we have the support, we have the drive, and we have the strength to do this - and do it right.Hang on Leon! We're essentially all in this together.(((((((((((((((((((Great Big Hug)))))))))))))Cali

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly: I don't know about you, but I think it would be pretty hard to get it on with someone if you knew their spouse was either watching or at least listening in, wouldn't it?Ummmm....okay, this part shouldn't be getting me hot, right? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Naw, just breaking the tension.I'm not sure where the Harley afdvice should go on the Retro whatever.<edited due to recent developments [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I know, don't say it, but my worser self would be TEMPTED. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 31, 2000).]

OK, guys, update time. By now you may know that my W is actually posting on the EN forum (stop by for a visit, please). How's that for developments??!!What led to this was that we had another nice long conversation last night. Some things I learned from it (in random order): She and OM have broken things off cold turkey (no more lunches/dinners alone, etc. Apparently his W would make sure he never saw the kids again, if she found out - there's a lady with principles!); W wants us to be best friends for the rest of our lives, no matter what happens (sounds like a good starting point for recovery); W still has no romantic feelings for me (yeah, well, to know me is not necessarily to love me, I guess); W doesn't want to live in a love-less marriage; W really wants to see if she can make the marriage work (this is where you guys, plus Harley counseling, can really help!). SHe then decided to try out the forums, to see how others in similar situations have dealt with things!I think the real challenge (one I'll pose to Steve tomorrow) is that she is convinced that she understands her emotions and feelings and that she is in control of her emotions. Therefore, I think she is rationalizing that even though she had an affair, and is only two days into the post D-day withrawal, she can still have a clear mind about her feelings (or lack thereof) for me. I can't buy that kind of reasoning. I'm sure two days after a hot affair ends, her mind is all over the place. BUt I also know it's not my job to educate her or try to convince her about this.I hope she will become more involved in this forum, and will learn from this experience. If you guys can help her like you've helped me, I'd greatly appreciate it (that's an understatement!).And Mike, I haven't seen you respond to her yet. I can't wait for your "insight" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.JL, if you could post to her too, I know she'll appreciate your thoughts!Leon[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 31, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hurting Badly: And Mike, I haven't seen you respond to her yet. I can't wait for your "insight" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.Yeah, I spit my coffe all over the monitor, then I ran and hid under the couch, peeking out until it was safe.Then I posted, but it wss probably inarticualte blather.My advice to you, Sparky, is to give her your Harley appointment tomorrow.I think the real challenge (one I'll pose to Steve tomorrow) is that she is convinced that she understands her emotions and feelings and that she is in control of her emotions.Well...a woman's heart is like.....uh....a one stall bathroom. She might think she can fit more than one person in there, but only one is getting anything done. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hi, all,VERY late to this thread, and Leon, I know you don't know me from a hill of beans. Lori mentioned me about 3 pgs ago - Ol'-Timer Suse, Esq., Former Betrayer Extraordinaire. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, wore the t-shirt until it was in shreds, bought *another* t-shirt because I wasn't done yet....Just my .02 - you've gotten wonderful advice so far Leon (and I agree you've been handling it very well). In particular, Lori has done a FABULOUS job with her own situation - listen to her well! And JL has a knack for looking at any situation from various angles and coming up with dead-on analyses (& Mike - must've missed you being over on Just Found Out - I usually find the funny people, and you are a hoot!! Keep adding levity!).I'd like to throw in some food for thought: we all know people get into affairs because they are feeling emotionally estranged from their spouses: unheard, not 'understood', not able to 'be themselves'. And probably not having any fun together any more either. And of course the Magic OP satisfies all these needs to perfection.(BTW, Lori's bet that your W was not looking for an affair & totally shocked to find herself in one rings *very* true...Lori, you sure won't get blasted by me!... there are really 3 'victims' of an affair: the betrayed, the betrayer <ducking incoming flames now>, and the marriage. The betrayer is left with a *heap* o' sh*t to deal with, once the fog starts lifting...)So Leon, the best advice I can add to what you've already gotten is to offer your W exactly what is the biggest draw for her in her affair: *hear* her...*understand* her...*value* her... be a *friend* to her. It ain't about sex - it's about emotional intimacy. As I said on another thread, we've all heard the expression "an inch deep and a mile wide" - well, an affair is an inch wide and a mile deep. YOU hold all the rest of the 'width' (your history, your kids, your *stuff*, your social life & families..). This is a strong suit. OM can never have these things. Let your W know the 'mile deep' can be re-established in your marriage, and the affair *cannot* compete. Do this by simply showing her: By listening to her. By caring how she feels. By giving her a safe refuge (she needs this desperately now - I can tell by how you describe her "looking like sh*t"! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I remember feeling AWFUL and EXHAUSTED and just soooooooo tired... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). So rub her feet. Bring her a cup of tea. Rent a funny movie so you can laugh together. You get my drift? She needs to feel *safe* right now. She needs comfort.My H never found out about my affair (tho his antennae were vibrating, he told me later). I think I wish he had... my A continued on & off for a loooooong time - every time I felt low (or OM did) it would resume. I wish I'd had my H's help and love and support during this time. I think it would have saved literally years of agony.Anyway - I'll look in on your W's post (username?). I'll help if I can - I really have been there! - but I will say she doesn't sound "too far gone". I also think her OM is probably running for the hills in a state of panic right now! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Good luck, Leon! ------------------ ~suse~ Rome wasn't built in a day.

Hi suse!I appreciate your inputs and thoughts. A lot of (positive) stuff transpired in the last 24 hours. One of them that my W is now posting on the EN forum! I would love for you to come by and give her some of your thoughts! <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001692.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001692.html</A> Thanks in advance!Leon[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited August 31, 2000).]

read it! Real firestorm of responses over there! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hang in there, Leon - suse

Hi Leon. Hi everybody.Can you beleive it? I finally registered on this BB. I'm a junior member here but God knows that my situation is not recent (Leon you know my story from the Divorce Busting BB - different username). I finally read ALL of your thread. I was so happy for you to read that your wife wants to go to Retrouvaille. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

This is Great!!I can't see how this could hurt your relationship. I'll be in a better position to give you my opinion on Monday.Are you a mathematician? You seem to use metaphores relating to maths (e.g. the integral one). Now that the A is in the open, is she spending more time w/ your kids? Is she shoing any signs of guilt in that regard? How are the kids doing? Do they know anything? I know they're very young (3 and 5 correct?). Do they ask questions? My D's do not seem to know of anything. I'm glad that's the case.I have not read your wife's thread but will go there soon. Don't know if I'll be able or in a position to offer any advice. How do you feel about her posting on the same BB? Aren't you afraid she is going to search for your threads and read them. From experience, there are things we say on a BB that we would not want our spouse to read. I've been there. Hence my reluctance to post how I feel.You hang in there. I also think there is a lot of positive for your two (or you four I should say, let's not forget our little ones). Manon