Marriage Builders
Posted By: Jill An update... - 03/16/00 06:14 AM
Hi, Everyone.<P>I'm still here. I'm sorry I haven't given an update sooner...I've been busy getting counseling from MB and counseling from my pastor on this whole situation...I wanted to have my facts and thoughts sorted before I posted about my situation! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Here's an update:<P>My husband came home from his trip this past weekend. I missed him like crazy! And, much to my surprise, he missed me too!<P>As most of you know, I have had a few counseling sessions with Steve Harley. In our last session, Steve advised me to confide in someone that I know and trust before telling my husband about the affair. After much deliberation on who I would choose to involve in this scandalous event, I chose my pastor. He and his wife are young (in their late 30's) and are very close friends with me and my husband. I made an appointment with my pastor (confidential and at his office, of course). I told my pastor EVERYTHING. He wept. I wept. And, do you know what he said??? He advised me NOT to tell my husband. He said that he would advise me to tell if I were still involved or still wanted to be involved with the other man, but that's not the case. This pastor knows me, my husband and both of our families. He said that in my situation, it is best NOT to tell my husband about something that happened a year ago. He said that it's not right to devastate everyone around me over something that is over and done with. He said that I've obviously punished myself. He said that the most important thing is for me to ask God's forgiveness (if I haven't already) and tell Him that I'm a liar and a cheat (God already knows that). Then, my pastor said to repent of those sins (lying and cheating) and to be honest from here on out. Yes, I asked God to forgive me for being a liar and a cheat. Yes, I believe that He forgives me. God sees my heart and He knows how sorry I am.<P>So, for now, I am not telling my husband. I feel like I need to follow my pastor's advice because he KNOWS so much more about me than Steve Harley can know from just a few counseling sessions over the phone. My pastor knows so much more about me than any of you can know...you guys only know the parts of me that I am able to share here. My pastor has seen me at my best and he has seen me at my worst...I trust his judgement. I trust that he would never deliberately tell me to do something that would be harmful to me or to my husband in the long run. <P>I know that some of you will be disappointed with my decision not to reveal my affair at this time. But, I'm not here to "please" people...you all know that. I'm here to help others and to be helped by others. I'm not perfect -- I don't deserve a gold star OR a cookie. You won't always agree with what I say or decide. I'm not some shining example of how a wayward spouse should feel or behave. I'm struggling just like everyone else here is struggling.<P>Yes, I will always be sorry for what I did to God, myself and my husband. When I had an affair, I broke my own heart and started giving away the pieces. Just within the past few weeks, I have allowed God to begin to heal my heart. I've allowed Him to put all of the pieces back together again...and that feels GOOD.<P>I do appreciate the support and kindness that I've found here. I still have a LONG way to go...my marriage still has a LONG way to go...I hope that you guys won't abandon me now...<P>I wish you peace and joy.<P>I'm going to go and snuggle with my husband now.<P>Love and peace to all...<P>Jill<BR>
Posted By: Keosha Re: An update... - 03/16/00 06:20 AM
Jill<P>We're not here to judge you on your decisions, we're here to support you on your journey.<P>Whatever you decide is what I'll support you with.<P>Happy snuggleing [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Keo
Posted By: SamH Re: An update... - 03/16/00 06:38 AM
OK Jill,<P>I've read every one of your posts with great anticipation. Waiting for the time when you tell your husband.<P>But here's the key, I haven't been waiting for you to tell him for him, I've been waiting for you to tell him for YOU!!!<P>Flat out, I think you Pastor is very much wrong here. He's right in that your husband does not ever need to know what happened. But he threatens to distroy the marriage by not recognizing that it's not your husband that is at issue, it's you. I really believe that Pastors should be required to have Psychology degrees. Jill, you need to tell your husband. This will free you from the guilt, allow you to experience his pain and help him through it, allow you to be free and him to grow to trust you totally. It's sooooooooo important.<P>I won't say more.<P>SamH
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 06:44 AM
Jill, As you know, most people here won't "judge" you. Your Pastor is telling you what he believes is right from his perspective. That is okay. Steve Harley is telling you from years of experience (8 of his own I believe, plus 35+ from his father & whatever experience his sister has). Honesty, honesty, honesty! This is the most essential ingredient to a relationship.<P>If you have honesty, all else <I>should</I> fall into line. Before you jump, let me say I am not telling you to open up to your H yet. I feel this is something you should pray about & something you should do eventually. You will be eaten up by this over the years & your H will be “fat, dumb & happy” so to speak.<P>I believe the most hurtful action my Wife has taken was to lie (by omission) of her first “experience“ outside the marriage. 18 years ago. This has probably eaten her up inside so much inside that what she is doing now is a cakewalk.<P>If you can’t trust your spouse with <B>EVERYTHING/ANYTHING</B> then you/they don’t deserve the other.<P>Take your time about all of this. Very likely the most difficult decision you have had to live with. I pray for nothing but the best for you & your H.<P>p.s. Sorry if this rambles on...<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>
Posted By: WilliamJ Re: An update... - 03/16/00 12:19 PM
Jill,<P>I'm in agreement with Chris and Sam.<BR>Every book I have read on this subject (about 15) says that we must tell our spouces of our infidelity eventually. Like Sami I was waiting for you to tell him for you. I promise that this burden will destroy you from the inside out. No matter what you do it will always be in the back of your mind eating at you, and that wall will hold back the true intimacy we all desire. Maybe now isn't the time but I think sometime in the near future you will get to a point that the pain of not telling will get to be greater than the fear of telling. Keep praying and maybe get another learned opinion.<P>No matter what you decide I for one will be here to help you walk through this.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>
Posted By: MENTAL Re: An update... - 03/16/00 12:59 PM
Jill,<BR>I have never been the betrayer....so I don't know what I would do in your position.<P>I can only tell you from my point of view. I was devestated to find out. I found out on my own....purely by accident. My stbx never thought I would find out. You see...how could I. The OW and I didn't have the same friends....frequent the same places....or have any of the same interests. But I did find out.....and your H could too. Simply by accident or by someone who knew about this.<P>Do you want him to find out from you.....or possibly from someone else down the road? It could happen.<P>But Jill, your right...you have to live by what you yourself tells you to do. You do not live your life for me....other posters...or anyone else....you live your life for God.<P>Whatever you decide...we are here for you.<P>Nancy
Posted By: 2sad4words Re: An update... - 03/16/00 01:01 PM
Jill,<P>I am so relieved that you are still with us.<P>I am inclined to agree with the others that you should tell him eventually. The idea that the marriage can only be saved through conscious deception doesn't set well with me. In a way, it is presumptuous and condescending to keep the truth from him to avoid hurting his feelings. Since your affair ended long ago and you have repented and recommitted yourself to your husband, the only one who will be devastated will be him. But the only alternative to that is to continue to deceive him. That doesn't even make sense - "deceive him for his sake"? I admire your intentions, but I disagree with you and your pastor on this point. (As you say, I don't know you, your husband, or your situation except for what you have posted, so take my viewpoint with a grain of salt).<P>Of course <B>timing</B> is everything and perhaps strengthening your marriage first will minimize the blow. If he is confident of your love and commitment to the marriage when you tell him it won't seem both shocking AND hopeless-just shocking. I know that would have helped me. But I am still concerned about two things:<P>1. The longer you put off telling him, the more upsetting it will be that you kept it from him. And now your pastor knows something that he doesn't. If that comes up later he may feel very alienated. <P>2. The guilt will still be eating at you. When he looks you in the eyes you will always know you are hiding something from him. Speaking for myself, it would be like Poe's Telltale Heart - carrying the guilt around would be a very heavy burden. The longer you carry it the riskier it will seem to reveal it. This can't be good for your emotional health.<P>I'm sorry to add to the whirlwind of conflicting ideas you are confronting. But please understand this: Even if you never do tell him, I still think you are a shining star for your determination to revive your marriage. As you have seen on many posts, fleeing the addiction takes extraordinary grit.<P>Stay with us Jill, and God bless you.
Posted By: NSR Re: An update... - 03/16/00 01:12 PM
Jill,<P>In your own time...<BR>God will tell when the right time is...<BR>I (and the rest of us here) have no right to judge... and you'll find we won't!<P>Now...<BR>Start the recovery...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>...<P>And yes... in time... "honesty" will be all important!<P>Prayers and love... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Jim
Posted By: Kenneth Re: An update... - 03/16/00 01:59 PM
Jill,<P>I cannot pass judgment of your decision. I have never been in your position, nor in your huisbands position. My wife had an emotional affair last year, which I discovered when I saw them together and read a letter she wrote to him. I was devastated, and would far rather have preferred her telling me than the way I found out.<P>You have to do what you feel is best. No telling is best for you, for now. You may change your mind in the future, or you may find peace. Only you will know.<P>Good luck,<BR>Kenneth
Posted By: beth28 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 02:03 PM
What was the rational for talking to a trusted friend first?<P>That could say alot.
Posted By: NeverAgain Re: An update... - 03/16/00 02:52 PM
wrong forum<p>[This message has been edited by NeverAgain (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: trying2_4give Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:04 PM
Jill, try not to feel like everyone here is ganging up on you, I for one, understand your apprehension. One person is saying TELL ALL but the person that knows you best is saying DON'T TELL all. It's as if you are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't. Work on better understanding yourself and why you reached out to another man. Then work on your marriage and make it stronger than it ever was. Maybe marriage counseling, asking your H what his needs are and if there are any that you have failed to meet. And in time you will discover what is best for you. Yes, it is true that their is always a chance H could find out, and that is something that will always be in the back of your mind. But you can't deal with every emotion right now, just take it one step at a time and then you will find your way to the truth.
Posted By: Bystander Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:17 PM
<BR>I've taken to calling this the Paradox of the Betrayer. If you genuinely work on repairing your marriage, your love for your husband will blossom. But as that love grows, the guilt from *not* revealing the affair grows as well. As someone else mentioned, how can you look a man that you love in the eyes, knowing the full time that you're living a lie?<P>Of course, one way to deal with this aversive situation is to simply avoid, to some degree, becoming too intimate with the betrayed. That way, you don't have to face the guilt quite as much. But an intimate marriage is what Jill wants, hence the paradox. Jill wants to know, deep in her heart, that her husband wants her. She'll never know that until she confesses. She'll only know that he wants who he *thinks* she is, and the uncertainty of his desire will eat away at her like a cancer.<P>IMO, Jill will have to eventually confess, or she'll never really have the marriage *she* wants. Timing is an issue, and I recognize that. But I'm with Chris and Jim on this, a marriage based on anything less than total honesty isn't a marriage, and it isn't the sort of marriage that Jill wants.<P>Bystander
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:18 PM
Jill,<BR>You know how I feel about this. The goal is marital preservation. Harley says always tell, but he also says almost no marriages without children survive an affair. So when people "automatically" say confession is the best, it seems a little like russian roulette. There are 5 bullets in the gun, and you are expected to take the chance that you will luck out and get the empty chamber. Or that somehow, if you don't play that game, that your life will be forever tainted. Like so many things, it is all a frame of mind. If you can find a way to reconcile your self-esteem and find forgiveness, AND make sure this never happens again, well I don't see the point in spilling your guts. Everyone here are obviously people who don't divorce over infidelity (otherwise they wouldn't be here). Saying that it is better to have no marriage than one where you keep a secret is also B*LL****. virtually none of these people have gone through what you've been through and are now divorced. They have the luxury of "total" honesty because they still have a marriage. <P>I'm glad your pastor is a little more down to earth. Total honesty is a nice thing to have in an ideal world and an ideal marriage and it is just a little hypocritical coming from people who haven't lost their marriage trying to come clean in some selfish attempt to make themselves feel better. <P>bystander,<BR>no one is ever sure from one day to the next that their spouse really loves who they "are". Everyone has a mental image of who there significant other is. The paradox, as you say, only exists as long as Jill considers herself a betrayer. Once she has forgiven herself, she will not see herself as a betrayer, and she will be able to see her reactions in a more realistic framework. The desire for confession comes from a warped idea that somehow she should be punished. This comes from herself now, because she feels guilty, and especially from other "betrayed". She has suffered enough. Maybe she will confess. Maybe she won't, but I certainly hope she doesn't confess because she thinks she's not "good enough" for her H. She can be intimate with her husband in the knowledge that she is not the same person as the one who cheated. She will feel comfortable being intimate with her H after she has forgiven herself. Her H's forgiveness has no bearing on how she feels about herself. Regardless of his reaction, she will have to forgive herself. all this makes me so sick. Like the lynch mob outside the prison just dying to see someone hang. I really have a hard time believeing anyone wants to see her confess for HER knowing what the possible, and most likely, outcome will be. Get off it!<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: Johnnie Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:20 PM
Jill:<P>Pray about it, and God will provide you with the anwser you are seeking.<P>Hang in there,<P>Johnnie<BR>
Posted By: kam6318 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:26 PM
Hey Jill:<BR> Just to be different, I won't offer any opinion...I think you'll end up thinking it thru carefully (you just seem to be that kind of person) and make whatever decision is best for you. But, I'm glad to hear from you, that you are OK. It's good to hear that you and H both missed each other!!!<BR> Keeping you in my prayers--<BR>Kathi
Posted By: Bystander Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:37 PM
<BR>TS,<P>I disagree that the desire to see Jill confess comes from some hope that she'll be punished. And I *really* disagree that Jill can rectify the knowledge that she betrayed her husband by simply telling herself, "That was a different person who did that, and I'm different now." Our past, for better or worse, is part of who we are. And all the mental machinations in the world can't change that.<P>Its true that our spouses only know who we are to the extent that we reveal details about ourselves. The strength to self-validate, to reveal the bad things about ourselves, suggests a higher plane of psychological growth. And self-validating like that actually increases intimacy. See _Passionate Marriage_ for a discussion of this phenomenon.<P>Bystander<BR>
Posted By: Live&Learn Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:45 PM
Jill,<BR>I've been reading the forum for several months now and wanted to let you know I was in your position at one time as well. I agonized over telling my husband about my affair because I honestly didn't know if he would leave me, I justified that now that I was willing to give 100% to my marriage, why tell? Wouldn't that just be relieving my own guilt and putting a horrible amount of pain on my husband, unnecessary pain when I was already falling back in love with him and committed to the marriage? <P>Over the course of two years of recovery without my husband's knowledge of the affair, I became increasingly depressed and sick about what I'd done. My husband also grew distant because of the way I acted. It was like a cancer that was eating away at me (maybe a little melodramatic sounding, but that's the way it was) and I decided I had to tell him, not to relieve myself of the guilt, but because I realized that marriage is not a place for that type of secret. I had to tell him if we were ever going to even <B> start </B> recovery. I planned for it carefully, had the kids being watched by my parents and dinner and even had a letter I gave to him that explained all of my feelings during the past 6 months (when I decided I was going to confess, I wrote down a weekly diary so he could see where I was at). His reaction was shock and grief when I told him, but he also said he was relieved because he thought he was crazy for a long time, that he had known something was going on and I would never confirm it before. We started recovery then, and it hasn't been easy at all (!) but it's been worth it, and I can't tell you what starting over with a clean slate feels like, no secrets can really bring intimacy within a marriage that wasn't there before. <P>I'm in no way trying to say telling is the only way to go right now for your particular situation, just what it was like for me and how it really can eat you up inside (like another poster said here) if you don't bring things out into the open. Also, you have to listen to yourself and what that little "inner voice" is telling you. God bless.
Posted By: trying2_4give Re: An update... - 03/16/00 03:49 PM
Gee, i actually can relate and UNDERSTAND what Bystander is saying without using the dictionary!!! YES, bystander you are starting to win me over, and we both now that what I THINK is the only thing that matters!!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] just kidding<BR>Let's not start another heated debate on Jill's thread. Yes, i do believe it will always be in the back of her mind what she has done, and the guilt will be there, but we all have to give her, HER TIME, in how she choses to handle it. And I do believe she has to let her H know every piece of her being, including the bad, but if she doesn't feel ready yet, then let's just hold her hand, and listen until that time.
Posted By: beth28 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 04:47 PM
I hope Jill answer's my question because I think it's an important one. Maybe she doesn't know the answer. My guess from reading Harley's stuff is that she was to tell a trusted friend to have a means of support when she finally did tell her husband and to give it a try out with a somewhat less emotionally involved person. (not to have them give her advice because they know her better.) I'm for total honesty, but then I don't always practice what I preach. (There are things my husband doesn't know about me) It's hard to be the pot calling the kettle black. My secrets are relatively minor in the emotional impact realm though and have nothing to do with my husband and more to do with me.<P>Jill- some other things to think about...<P>How high does your husband rate honesty and openness? If it's one of his top needs then keeping this from him for any length of time is just going to increase the impact if he finds out.<P>How much do you trust your husband? If you think he is going to leave you over this than that is a trust issue for you to work on. Don't let the no children-no chance info scare you. We don't have children, we're making it ok. Maybe it is a matter of working on your marriage until you're sure you've deposited enough love units in his bank for him to stand the withdrawal.<P>Is a marriage lacking in total honesty and openness worth keeping? How would you feel if the roles were reversed?<P>Any decision you make comes with risks. You can't avoid them either way. That is the consequence of your decision to have an affair.<P>Anyway, the pots got her own delimma's on openness and honesty to work out.
Posted By: Distrusting Re: An update... - 03/16/00 05:17 PM
Hi Jill,<P>I'm so sorry that you're stuck in this place. It must be very difficult not truly knowing what to do. Not telling would definitely be the easiest route to take, considering the chance of some hefty consequences. But, I worry about your emotional well-being and the well-being of your marriage as a whole. As someone mentioned, that guilt might just become an enormous wedge between the two of you, which might drive you further apart. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen in your case, though. And I'm sure you've heard all of this before, so I won't preach. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>What I'd like to ask you, is if you plan on speaking to Dr. Harley again? I know your pastor gave you advice contrary to what Dr. Harley believes, but I wonder if you're not just sticking with the pastoral advice because it might have been what you wanted to hear. I, too, agree that pastors and the like should have some psychology training before they give such a definitive answer as to what you should do with your marriage. Of course I know better than to delve any further than that into religion on this board. So, I'll leave it at my recommendation of speaking to Dr. Harley. He's a strong Christian and may be able to speak objectively about what your Pastor said, after all, Dr. Harley is a Christian first. Just don't give up because one person told you the answer you "may" have wanted to hear. <P>If you're still not comfortable with your decision, then get more opinions, as in reading books, more forums, etc. Just don't stick with this one because it's the safest route. Please! <P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller<BR>
Posted By: NeverAgain Re: An update... - 03/17/00 06:10 AM
Sorry operator error today!!!!!!11<p>[This message has been edited by NeverAgain (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: Aslan_the_Lion Re: An update... - 03/17/00 06:26 AM
Jill,<P>Well it really sounds like you have given this a lot of thought. You definitely are in a hard place. You have Steve, who really knows marriages but doesn't know you really well saying you should tell, and you have your pastor, who doesn't have as much training as Steve, but knows you and your husband really well. <P>I don't think there is any harm in waiting to tell your husband, since after you have told him you can't un-tell him. But I have thought of something, why not combine the advantages of both people? I mean why not have your pastor be on the phone with you the next time you talk to Steve? That way Steve can listen to your Pastor's experience with your husband, and your Pastor can listen to Steve's take on this problem. Steve has been talking with you about this particular problem more than your pastor. Maybe Steve can take the additional background facts he learns from your pastor and apply his knowledge to them, and your pastor can apply what additional facts he knows to some of Steve's ideas. Then all three of you can come to a better conclusion. <P>My personal opinion is that if you do tell your husband, you probably need to have someone with you, either the pastor, his wife, or both; maybe even have Steve on the phone also.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John
Posted By: Keosha Re: An update... - 03/17/00 06:52 AM
I can't believe the way I feel after reading some of the posts above. <P>I think the purpose of this forum is for us to give each other support and share our experiences.<P>It seems like it's becoming a "do as I say" forum. <P>It's not our place to TELL Jill what to do.<P>It's not our place to tell her she's wrong, or making a mistake, or she'll be sorry for the choice she made.<P>Jill,<P>you do what you need to do. Don't let anyone bully you into doing anything that you aren't ready to do. maybe you'll confess someday and maybe you won't. <P>It's not their marriage that is at risk here, it's yours, so do what you believe is right for your marriage.<P>We all make good and bad choices throughout our lives. You have to live with your choice, so make sure it's really YOUR choice not a reaction to someone else's choice.<P>Keo<BR>
Posted By: Wexwill Re: An update... - 03/16/00 07:00 PM
Jill - I agree with your pastor. I think I may have advised the same thing, when you first posted about your dilemma. I think it's absolutely the right decision.<P>If your H had voiced strong suspicions at the time that you were having an affair, and was still bothered by it, that would be a different matter. But apparently, he never suspected anything? So such a revelation now would devastate him.<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think the purpose of this forum is for us to give each other support and share our experiences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're absolutely correct. But one of the things we should be doing on this particular web site is reinforcing the "Harley method of Marriage Building." We are not telling her to do it right now. She <I>should</I> do it sometime, in an appropriate place and in the appropriate way. This is something she has thought about since it happened. Why? 'cause she feels the need to be honest. A dilemma for sure. But a decision needs to be made.<P><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>
Posted By: Keosha Re: An update... - 03/16/00 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B> one of the things we should be doing on this particular web site is reinforcing the "Harley method of Marriage Building." </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I believe in the Harley method. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.<P>But I also believe that no one method fits every circumstance. (If your teaching someone to drive a car you have to use different approaches if the car is automatic or standard transmission.)<P>It seems to me that we act like everyone drives a automatic... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] there has to be some small adjustments made for different types of vehicles (marriages)<P>Harley is good at what he does, but he's not a God to be worshiped and unquestionally obeyed.<P>Someone posted that a high percentage of childless marriages don't survive his methods. <P>Jill has the right to decide if she wants to join that percentage or not.<P>We don't have the right to tell her that she MUST join that percentage.<P>I, for one, don't want to be guilty of distroying a marriage by bullying someone into doing something they feel is wrong at this time.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>But a decision needs to be made.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems to me that a decision was made. <P>The problem here is that most of us don't approve of the decision that Jill and her pastor made.<BR>
Posted By: schizzo Re: An update... - 03/16/00 08:05 PM
Jill,<P>Don't worry about what we will think, it is a far-reaching decision, YOUR decision.<P>You have to decide, apart from all the advice.<P>I will not offer you any, but I will tell my story if you like.<P>I am speaking as a betrayed wife. My h decided to tell. Interestingly, we are also very close to our pastor and wife, and he also advised him not to tell.<P>He decided to tell. I was devastated. Many times I wished he had not. But for me it has been an important wake-up call. Our marriage is so different now. We are really making it. Read my update?<P>Eventually he will have to know if you are going to build a wonderful marriage based on total honesty.<P>I am a reluctant convert to the entire Harley approach. But I can't advise you. There are some people, especially men, that will not forgive. Someone mentioned no kids, is that true? The kids were a major factor in my resolve to get past this during the worst times.<P>Sorry, I can't remember, was this a long affair? It also makes a difference how bad the news is. H hit me with his story - two affairs, each lasting 4 to 6 months, ranging over 18 months. For one and a half years my life was a complete lie!<P>You have to decide for yourself. Largely what got me into this mess was always trying to live by what others said.<P>
Posted By: 2sad4words Re: An update... - 03/16/00 08:10 PM
Keosha,<P>We aren't <B>telling</B> Jill what to do. We are sharing our own perspectives. She is a big girl and is capable of accepting our viewpoints for what they are, evaluating the merits, and deciding for herself. <P>Jill's posts show her to be thoughtful and introspective. I don't think she will be pressured by us to do anything she hasn't thought through herself. I sure hope not!<P>I know I personally have benefitted greatly from the diversity of viewpoints found here, those I agree with, those I don't, and especially those that had not occurred to me.
Posted By: Bystander Re: An update... - 03/16/00 08:28 PM
<BR>Keo,<P>I'm with 2sad4words here. We aren't telling Jill to do anything. She can decide what to do for herself. However, I personally believe that the kind of marriage she wants is virtually unattainable until she confesses.<P>Here's the acid test. Let Jill look into her husband's eyes the next time she and her husband make love. Not as a boudoir trick, mind you, but *really* try and look him in the eyes; The depth of the emotional connection she'll experience will bring the Paradox of the Betrayer to the forefront of her mind. And I'll bet she averts her gaze. After all, how can a good person lie to someone they *truly* love? How can they maintain a profound emotional connection like that? I don't think they can.<P>Bystander
Posted By: beth28 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 08:48 PM
Wow! <P>There's a couple of things I believe in firmly and they pervade almost every decision I make.<P>1) The power of the human psyche to overcome any obstacle is immense. All it takes is desire, commitment, and a bit of elbow grease.<P>2) We all have inside of us the capacity for great harm and great love. I tend to favor the love part a bit more which of course sets me up for the occasional fall, but I'm strong enough to take it.<P>I really worry about the no child-less of a chance statistic. It's a statistic, it's not a certainty. We make the difference in what happens to us, not statistics. Men are less willing to work on a marriage after news of infidelity than woman, but does that mean Jill's husband would? I don't know. Jill you know your husband. You know you. Whatever decision you make or don't make is going to come with it's own set of consequences. Please, Please don't back away from a decision out of fear. You've really got to make a decision based upon a full picture of the pros and cons as they relate to your situation.<P>Boy, I really feel for you on this one. It would be easier if you had a crystal ball and could see both of the bends in the road on each choice.
Posted By: wesse Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:09 PM
To Bystander and other sharks urging Jill to tell, don't give up your day jobs!!!<P>She has taken Dr. Harley's advice which I do not believe she misunderstood. Back off! Her situation may be different from yours.<P>To Bystander and the "look deep into the eyes etc.", it sounds like she does have a good marriage. Don't try to tell her that it is impossible for her to have a good marriage without telling all. Perhaps you should broaden your base of relationship research. Even Dr. Harley leaves room for another approach in her situation. Who are you guys to continue in your dogmatic tell all advice.<P>Some of you sound like people standing in the street looking up at the guy on the ledge yelling, "Jump!"<P>This reply will no doubt offend some of you here, but I post anyway because the stakes for Jill and her H are very high. Give her pastor some credit. Also, give Jill credit and be supportive of her in her decision.<P><p>[This message has been edited by wesse (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: Bystander Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:17 PM
<BR>Wesse,<P>I'll let the shark crack pass, thanks.<P>I *never* urged Jill to confess. I simply said that in my estimation, she's never going to have the marriage that she wants until she confesses. See BrokenButNotCrushed's recent post about his wife confessing: After reading Jill's posts, I see the same need in Jill to confess, that's all.<P>Bystander<BR>--<BR>Who is starting to feel unwelcomed in this thread.
Posted By: Jill Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:28 PM
Hi.<P>I expected to have lots of different opinions and advice on this one. <P>Some of you seemed to dismiss my pastor's advice because you were of the opinion that he didn't have the appropriate counseling credentials. My pastor was a marriage and family counselor before he was "called to preach". So, he DOES have counseling experience outside of being a pastor. <P>I've also been asked what I would want if the roles were reversed and my husband became the betrayer and I became the betrayed. I would NOT want to know that my husband cheated on me...I wouldn't want everything to be destroyed over a six month "fling". My husband has told me before that he NEVER wanted to know if I cheated on him. I take his words at face value. I wouldn't want to know. He doesn't want to know.<P>Yes, I wish I had a crystal ball.<P>Yes, there have been times that I feel like the "Harley Lynch Mob" is coming for me... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Gee...I'm was a wayward spouse and now I'm a wayward Harley follower...go figure. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Having an affair was like jumping off of a cliff and dying. In my view right now, confessing would be like coming back from the dead and jumping off of the cliff AGAIN. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>So, sue me. I'm not willing to destroy everyone and everything around me for the sake of TOTAL honesty. I've already destroyed myself in lots of ways...I won't put others through the same pain that I've experienced. I can't do that today...not yet...maybe not ever.<P>Thanks to everyone who responded. I really do appreciate all of the input. <P>Since the "lynch mob" appears to be coming for me, maybe I'll have to go elsewhere.<P>Keosha, thanks for "going to bat" for me...I really appreciate you. Thank you for somehow representing my thoughts and feelings so well...<P>WHERE IS [censored]???<P>Jill<P>
Posted By: trying2_4give Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:35 PM
I really don't consider us the lynch mob, well not all of us anyway. But just like anyplace else everyone is different and feels differently on different situations. Don't take it personally. Hell, look at Bystander and I, I thought I was going to have to hunt him down and B&TCH SLAP him the other day, BUT i realized that we all have different thoughts and opinions and I let him continue to walk the same earth as me!! Aren't I JUST THE GREATEST!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: TruthSeeker Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:43 PM
I agree with Keosha and Wesse. Allow Jill her decision. God forbid we disobey the "Word of Harley"!. Is following Harley's advice closer to doing what God would want than her own pastor's advice?<P>Let's offer her support in doing whatever rebuilding she needs/wants to do with her marriage and come down off our high horses in doing so.<P>Sheesh! Have a little tolerance, already!<P>Jill,<P>For what it's worth, I support you. (And I'm a recent total honesty convert!)
Posted By: Bystander Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:55 PM
<BR>trying2_4give,<P>To know me is to love me - okay, in my case, that's revised to: To know me is to tolerate me! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><BR>Jill,<P>If you've followed my posts elsewhere, you need to know that I run everything in my life at full throttle - including my posting style. While I genuinely believe what I've written in this thread, I'm also sure that right now isn't the time for you to tell your husband. Good luck and don't count me in the Harley Lynch Mob! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Bystander
Posted By: beth28 Re: An update... - 03/16/00 09:56 PM
Hey Jill,<P>What's your next step?<P>You've decided for now not to tell. What are you going to do to insure this doesn't happen again? <P>Hey no lynching from me. I have a different opinion on honesty, but then I value honesty way up on the richter scale. Incidentally, my husband and I had a discussion about affairs sometime before I found out. (although I really don't remember the exact time frame) I told him I wanted to know. I also told him I thought I could forgive one.<BR>Obviously your circumstance is different.<P>One thing you can do that is very proactive is if you feel your needs aren't being met, and you want to look elsewhere again you can<BR>come back here and post. We'll be glad to straighten you out. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] lol.<P>Hang in there Jill. To everything there is a season right?
Posted By: Mitzi Re: An update... - 03/16/00 10:06 PM
Jill,<P>Now that I've read all of the replies you've gotten, I feel like I need to give you my thoughts on it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>I support you! No questions asked. Yes, honesty is good in a relationship but if I were in your position, I probably wouldn't tell either. Also, after all the pain I went thru in finding out my H was cheating, I wish I'd never found out. I wish I had thought we were to separate because of other problems we've had. I could have dealt with that a little easier. <P>You are welcome to be here. You are an adult and are entitled to make your own decisions!<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi<P>
Posted By: Kenneth Re: An update... - 03/16/00 10:08 PM
Jill,<P>I would miss your posts if you stopped coming here. Some of us agree with your decision, some disagree, and some like myself don't pass any judgment. Your life is yours to live and everyone here respects that. <P>The fact that your pastor knows you so well is a powerful argument that his advice is good. So live with your decision not to tell for a while, if it works, great. If it doesn't, you'll know.<P>Please keep in touch. Your experience will be of great help to us here as we struggle to understand our issues.<P>Cheers,<BR>Kenneth
Posted By: schizzo Re: An update... - 03/16/00 10:22 PM
No lynching here! I support whatever you decide. I was merely reflecting on the good, the bad, and the ugly of my h's deciding to confess to me.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/16/00 11:01 PM
Bystander,<BR>That is nice, but all that supposes you have a marriage to validate in the first place. <P>Self-validating is one thing. Being a glutton for punishment is another.
Posted By: bonnet Re: An update... - 03/16/00 11:18 PM
WOW <P>what a lot of good advice, "bad" advice, indifferent advice, support, love and friendship. <P>Isn't that what we are all here for.?<P>To The Student - a bit harsh don't you think.<BR>We all have our own opinions, morals, thoughts and feelings. All we are doing is sharing them, whatever 'they' may be....<BR>I feel you should back off a little.<BR>One thing my mother used to say to me comes to mind every time I read something you have posted<P>"IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT ANYTHING NICE TO SAY, DON'T SAY IT AT ALL...."<P>I'm not saying 'don't' disagree, but there are ways to say things. You don't seem to have the 'way'.<P>anyway, Jill,<P>no advice from me. My thoughts are that one day you will tell your H. When you are ready, and when the time is right. Could be next month, next year, next decade!!! I just feel that in your heart, you will have a need to tell him. You seem so caring, so compassionate and you hate what you have done. Am I right.? Well, you will know what to do, when it is time to do it...<P>That's all, except, please don't go. (I think we're going to have to pay KC & the Sunshine Band commission money with that one!!!)<P>You have a lot to offer here, and I think a lot to share.<P>I'm thinking of you,<P>Jo
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/16/00 11:21 PM
I just finished reading all of the replies. Just for the record, if my ex-H had an affair, I would have wanted to know because I would want to work on the marriage. I'm a problem solver at heart. I would not have divorced him over it. There were lots of things my H didn't want to know about me. We never had a relationship based on "total" honesty. All that said, I'd still take what I had (marriage to him without total honesty) over what I have now, which is total celibacy for life. <P>Wesse,<BR>I didn't like the guilt trip being handed her either. <P>Jill,<BR>you WILL be able to look your into your H's eyes with total love,knowing that you've made the best decision for you and your marriage!<P>bonnet,<BR>I'm sorry if I offended you. I know that everyone here is just trying to help. Here's one of my favorite sayings<P>"Now all of these voices, and all of these noises. With all their illusions of choices, they come to my door with one dozen roses. The imitation of good faith is how you stumble upon hate." <P>I happen to believe that betrayed who suggest confession have the illusion of good faith, which only barely conceals their hatred of betrayers who won't subject themselves to the hangman's noose (i.e confession). God forbid, she keep this secret and be OK with it, cause then she'd be "getting away with it", according to some. I know better. She hasn't gotten away with it, and telling her H won't teach her anything she doesn't already know. You are right, I don't have alot of tact. I'm only one lone voice in this crowd, and I guess I feel like I have to shout to be heard through the din.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: Just Learning Re: An update... - 03/17/00 12:16 AM
Hi! Jill,<P>Well I guess I'd better join in here. First, and this is an order [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com], don't leave. You will provide more help to people here than we will be able to provide you. <P>Are you happy with your decision? If the answer is yes, then go with it full tilt. Has your H been surprised by your apparent change in attitude?<P>If so look him in the eye, and tell you been wrestling with yourself, got some issues settled, and you are deeply in love with him and want to improve this marriage. I'll bet that won't disappoint him.<P>It seems to me that you have been "sensitized" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] to the possible pitfalls of your choice so you can avoid them, because you can confide in your pastor. He should be able to help you through any personal rough spots.<P>So my advice, you've made the decision you were agonizing over, make it work and have a wonderful life. But come visit regularly.<P>God Bless You and Your H,<P>JL
Posted By: 2sad4words Re: An update... - 03/17/00 12:38 AM
All,<P>The "lynching" comments are offensive. I don't recall any comments that were so dogmatic that they merit being labeled this way. <B>Lighten up!</B>. This is a discussion forum - a platform for exchanging ideas. Hashing out these sometimes contradictory positions is, IMHO, very healthy and enlightening.<P><B>As for me, my comments came from my heart, not from a book.</B><P>Jill,<P>You still have my <B>full</B> moral support, prayers and best wishes for your marriage. I hope my enthusiasm for your initial decision to tell your H didn't put unwanted pressure on you. I wasn't recommending a course for you, merely sharing my feelings and point of view to assist you in making your own decision I hope that was the spirit in which they were taken.<P>Please don't let the firestorm drive you away. Share your ongoing recovery process with us so we can benefit from your experience and thoughtful comments. Allow us to be your sounding board and part of your support system. We're a little cranky sometimes, but overall not too bad. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<p>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/17/00 01:58 AM
2sad4words and anyone else,<BR>Sorry if I offended you. I'm pretty sure the lynching analogy started with me. I don't want to discount that your concern was genuine and that your advice was given from the heart. Jill picked up on my analogy too. <P>The reason why I get so fired up is because I believe Jill has already paid the price for what she did. She has learned the lesson for Christ's sake and now just wants to get on with her life. <P>Here is a quote from "Forgive and Forget":<BR>What happens when you finally do forgive yourself? What you are in your present scene is not tied down to what you did in an earlier scene...You release yourself today from yesterday's scenario. You walk into tomorrow, guilt gone.<BR>Again, the word that fits the case best is "irrelevance". Look back into your past, admit the ugly facts, and declare that they are irrelevant to your present. Irrelevant and immaterial! Your very own past has no bearing on your case. Or how you feel about it. <BR>Such release does not come easy. The part of yourself who did the wrong walks with you wherever you go. A corner of your memory winks at you and says, "Nice try old chap, but we both know the scoundrel you really are, don't we?" It takes a miracle of love to get rid of the unforgiving inquisitor lurking in the shadows of your heart.<P>My words now....The miracle of love comes from yourself and your God, not anyone else.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]
Posted By: wesse Re: An update... - 03/17/00 03:10 AM
I think it's really cool how we all have expressed opinions on this issue from a to z with a bit of vinegar thrown in to accent our passion and zeal! <P>Yet after all this discussion all seem to respect the good faith effort Jill has put forth in reaching her decision. We hae managed to vigorously express our opinions and still come together in support.<BR>Everybody does seem to come together after good debate to support Jill in her decision whether or not it is the decision each of us might've made. <P>It just goes to show how remarkable all the posters on this board really are! If only all our spouses will come to fully appreciate the new and improved us!
Posted By: terri Re: An update... - 03/17/00 05:59 AM
All I have to say is this:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000937.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000937.html</A> <P>Less than 4 weeks ago.<P>And I take issue with and umbrage to the intimation that the vast majority of people who have been betrayed are sitting here waiting for a betrayer to be punished. Not all of us are D99. And in fact, that is the ONLY person I know who has been so venomous toward any betrayer who is trying to stay in a marriage.<P>I also take issue with the statement that the majority of marriages with infidelity in which no children are involved fail. I don't see that statistic cited ANYWHERE in Harley literature or in any of the other books I've read. It is MORE DIFFICULT for marriages with no children to survive any marital crisis, yes, but "most don't survive"?<P>I would bet money (if I had any) that Jill's husband already suspects that she is harboring some terrible secret - may even have a good idea what. Betrayed are not stupid - we just WANT to believe that our spouses wouldn't hurt us like that.<P>That said, Jill's decision IS Jill's decision. It is her life and marriage. I disagree, but that's just my opinion.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>
Posted By: Getting_Better Re: An update... - 03/17/00 06:47 AM
Jill<P> My wife betrayed me and told me when it was starting. I believe she should have done that. If my wife was in your position I could live without ever knowing about it. I am now on antidepressents and even today out of the clear blue sky I had visions of the two of them. I believe for YEARS I am going to have to deal with these waves of sadness. SO IT IS MY OPINION THAT YOUR HUSBAND CAN LIVE WITHOUT KNOWING BUT CAN YOU????? <P> I think you're doing the right thing. If you can do this and not let it eat you from the inside out I think what you will find is that you will have periods of sadness just being on the other side. I'm getting better, the visions are fewer and fewer they have less and less of an impact so just as I believe I'll get over it I think you will to. PLEASE, DO NOT GO THOUGH THIS ALONE, TALK TO YOUR PASTOR, BRING YOUR PROBLEMS HERE. I have found that talking about then here helps to clear my head. <P> REMEMBER ONE THING -- YOU WANT A HAPPY MARRIAGE AND SO DOES YOUR HUSBAND. YOU BOTH WANT TO BE DEEPLY CONNECTED AND IN LOVE AGAIN. STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP ABOUT THE PASS, LEARN FROM IT AND MOVE ON, just promise me that as you find the tricks to putting this behind you you'll let know for my wife.<P>Good Luck and I'll pray for you<P>Joe<BR>
Posted By: BrokenButNotCrushed Re: An update... - 03/17/00 07:09 AM
Dear Jill,<P>Please don't leave this site! It is vital that people on both sides of the tragedy of adultery feel welcome here.<P>I read your original post with interest, but since NSR replied with exactly the same advice that I would have given, I chose not to post. But, upon seeing where this has gone, I'd like to offer my thoughts to you.<P>My wife sought the advice of two Christian counselors, one during the affair, the other afterwards. Both knew me well. Both advised her to never tell me.<P>I believe their advice, at the time they gave it, was correct. <P>Two months ago, more than three years after the affair ended, she told me. She did the right thing, and despite the inexpressable pain and grief this has caused me, I am glad that she did.<P>How can both be true?<P>Read my post: "A story of hope..."<P>If my wife had told me years ago, I honestly believe I would have divorced her. At that time, our relationship had been devastated by the changes caused by the deceptions of the affair. We had discussed separation, and that was without my knowing anything!<P>During these last three years, my wife has allowed God to reshape her into a different person. I love and respect the woman she is today. I was willing to fight through the pain to save my marriage to her. I wouldn't have felt that way before.<P>In God's perfect time, she told me. She truly thought she never would, but God clearly showed her: TELL HIM NOW! He rewarded her obedience with a marriage that is much better than it could have been if she kept her secret to the grave.<P>Will God tell you to confess? I don't know. Clearly, He has not done so yet. So my advice is this: dedicate yourself toward becoming the best helpmate you can be. Put him first, as you should have done earlier. Become the woman God wants you to be, learning fully from the sins of the past.<P>You'll never realize the potential for your marriage if you never tell him. But if you tell him at the wrong time, you could lose your husband. Only God knows when the right time is. Trust Him, and do your part.<P>BrokenButNotCrushed
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/17/00 01:20 PM
Brokenbutnotcrushed,<P>Thank you for a balanced, insightful post. You have successfully shown how your wife wanted your marriage and made her decision based on that. I admire the fact that you were able to come to the conclusion that she is not a "liar" or wanting to live a lie, as so many seem to imply when a betrayer makes a decision not to confess. A decision not to tell is not the path of least resistence for the truly remorseful.
Posted By: schizzo Re: An update... - 03/17/00 01:25 PM
BBNC,<P>Are there really no regrets that she waited 3 years to tell you? Maybe you sell yourself short when you say that, that you are now dedicated to the marriage only because of the changes she accomplished on her own.<P>I say this because I always believed and said that if he ever had an affair, that would be the end, period. But it wasn't. When I was faced with the horrible truth, I fought for my marriage. And he hadn't changed, we had talked of separation, he was in love with OW.<P>I thought there was just a little regret in your story that you have 6 years to look back on and try to reconstruct. I sometimes wondered if he should have told me, but I am now sooooo glad, our marriage is stronger than ever.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy
Posted By: K Re: An update... - 03/17/00 02:29 PM
Jill:<P>As an old timer, I would encourage you to continue counseling with Steve Harley, and work on learning the MB skill set. And I would encourage you to be honest---one of the hallmarks of the Harley methodology is his AMAZING success rates, and while most of his methods are complete common sense (don't hurt your spouse, meet their needs), the area where he differs is in the area of honesty. While your pastor has done marriage counseling, you might ask him hard questions such as "how effective was he?"<P>My guess is that he's giving you this advice because he's found it nearly impossible to manage saving marriages hit by infidelity. Because he lacks the skills to do so. His advice is common-place, and these "common-place" methods also have some severe drawbacks.<P>If you're capable of compartmentalizing this completely, of "rebuilding" your marriage with (or without) your husband's help, and there's no chance of this affair ever being revealed---then there's a chance of success.<P>But what's more likely to happen is that the reason you had an affair will reoccur in the next 5-10 years. And you'll remember the pain of the last one, for a while---but then get frustrated with the marriage once again. And set yourself up for a repeat of the behavior. And because your husband doesn't know (unless you're BOTH doing counseling), he's without the means to help the marriage. He's lacking critical information.<P>This scenario happens all the time. Repeat of past behavior. You're swearing that it won't to YOU---but the pain is still fresh. You will have to work very dilligently to ensure that it doesn't happen again, and if your husband's not working with you in this effort to rebuild your marriage, it can get very lonely. And hard. Possible---yes. But it's much better if you're working together, knowing the pitfalls of what will happen if you fail, and experiencing the joys together when you succeed.<P>To everyone here whining about "support" and "lynching"---I really think you need to reexamine what this board is about. It is primarily a Marriagebuilders board. General "support" in the way of "do what you feel, honey" is not something that's particularly useful. You can find people to support you having an affair, for example. I don't see people "supporting" D99 in his anger here---I don't see people supporting OP's and betrayers continuing their affairs here. You shouldn't expect everyone to pat you on the back and say "you're making the right decision for YOU..." if this goes against the principles you believe in.<P>Jill, I would encourage you to continue talking to Steve (again). He may assess that you indeed are capable of burying the past and learing the skills necessary to make your marriage thrive---and he may advise you not to tell. I doubt it---but he's the professional with the track record of success. I'd listen to him.
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/17/00 02:42 PM
Ask Harley what his success rate is with female betrayers who don't have children. He says that men leave women over infidelity more often than the other way around. He also says that divorces occur much more frequently among those who don't have children. <P>His overall success rate may be good, but I'm guessing that part of it is because he is already dealing with people who are committed to trying to save the marriage, and he provides them with some effective tools. That is wonderful! More power to him! Your situation is different, however.<P>I mean, you have to be determined and educated enough to even be on the internet looking for advice, right? The horse has come to the water, so to speak, and he manages to get them to drink. Big deal! I just don't think that his success is all that miraculous. I know that people point out the examples of childless couples who have succeeded here, and it does happen. It is just rare. It is rare for them to be here in the first place, and more rare for their marriages to survive.<P>The reason why Harley won't recommend you keep silent is because he believes that a marriage without "total" honesty is not a marriage worth having. That is easy to say coming from someone who is still married and who hasn't had to face the dating scene in 30 years or so (how long has he been married?). So, I disagree with him there too. Only you can decide what kind of marriage you want. I'd take a marriage without total honesty over the way things are for me now. It is like rich people, or those with good jobs at least saying "money isn't everything". Sure, money ain't everything if you HAVE it. If you don't have money, and go to bed hungry everynight and can barely afford a roof over your head, money is a whole h*ll of alot. <P>Should you end up divorced, these same people will say "you did the right thing", "it is for the best", blah, blah. But all the comforting words in the world won't bring your H back, or keep you warm at night, or a hug when you are sad. I think you've suffered enough, Jill. I don't think you are living a lie, either. You are determined on improving your marriage. Yes, you will have to be diligent to make sure you don't cheat again, but everyone must do that. You know as well as I that your H can't control you, so it is not really a valid argument that your H can help "keep" you from cheating. Only you can do that.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 17, 2000).]
Posted By: K Re: An update... - 03/17/00 02:53 PM
Student:<P>For someone working on her Ph.D. in engineering, that 2nd paragraph of yours is complete BS, and I'm pretty sure that you know it. Harley actually works with a considerable number of marriages in which the situation is a disaster (affairs), and only one is in counseling.<P>These methods worked in my case. But not because I was "educated" or that my marriage was better off because I knew how to use the net. They work because the methodology is better than traditional marriage counseling. Period. It's not a skewed population of people using these methods.<P>You are right, that having children will help save a marriage, in statistical terms. But his success rate amoung childless couples is still much above the "norm".<P>And your marriage didn't fail because of honesty, or his methods. It failed mainly due to your selfish, naracisstic, immature husband. Your having an affair didn't help, but (IMO) you could have NEVER had a good marriage to your husband, without his willingness to grow. And you wouldn't have survived 10 more years of your current marriage waiting for him to get a clue.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited March 17, 2000).]
Posted By: TCL Re: An update... - 03/17/00 03:13 PM
Jill,<P>Happy St. Patrick's Day to you.<P> An Irish Proverb<BR> <BR>What shall I do to love? Believe.<BR>What shall I do to believe? Love.<P><BR>This has been an interesting discussion here. I want to tell you that I come down on the side of honesty here. While I don't agree with K on everything, I believe his note on this topic is right on. <P>What troubled me the most about my wife's affair was the dishonesty. I believe you need to tell at some point. If not, it will always be there as a barrier between you and your husband. You need to talk to your husband and counselors about why you had the affair and take measures to ensure that you don't do it again. Otherwise, how can you truly say it won't happen again?<P>There has also been some discussion about Harley or non-Harley principles. Here's another source I recommend.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.dearpeggy.com/quest127.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.dearpeggy.com/quest127.html</A> <P>Peggy is also a believer in honesty and has personal experience as a betrayed spouse. Peggy Vaughn and her husband have written books on Infidelity which I also recommend.<P>I wish you the best.
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/17/00 03:15 PM
K,<BR>I love you to death. You are absolutely one of my favorite people here. There are very few people here whose opinion I respect as much as yours. Honest!<P>I really don't know where Harley gets his numbers from. I do believe you that his success is probably higher than the norm. In general, I think his methods work alot of the time, just not *all* of the time, and people who come here need to know that and benefit from considering all options.<P>Your opinion about my marriage is worth noting. You've been with me here since day one, so you are very, very qualified to make that judgement. When I cheated on my H, I can't say I had put alot of thought into it. However, I did put some thought into confession, and I see now that my assumptions going into it were incorrect. Maybe you are right that my marriage would not have lasted another 10 years. But because I cheated (1), and confessed (2), I will never know, will I?<P>I took a look at my transcripts a couple of weeks ago. The 6 months following my affair, before confession, I had straight A's. After confession, I got mostly B's and my performance was mostly downhill after that. Only recently has it begun to improve, but it hasn't even approached even my post-affair/pre-confession motivation. Hmmm.<P>As bad as the guilt felt at the time, apparently it must not have been tooo unbearable. Knowing what I know now, I'd take my marriage without total honesty and the "deepest" intimacy over what my life is now. When I confessed, I think my expectations of marriage were pretty unrealistic. I know better now.
Posted By: Bystander Re: An update... - 03/17/00 03:30 PM
<BR>TS,<P>We've certainly all heard the claim that betrayed men are more likely to divorce than betrayed women, but is it true? I haven't done an exhaustive literature search, I admit, but nobody seems to cite clinching evidence of this claim. And the same goes for childless couples not surviving infidelity - where's the data?<P>As for your experience after confessing, it was particularly horrible. You can either ascribe the causality to your ex-husband (like K and I do), or you can ascribe it to a poor decision on your part: Specifically, to have sought an honest marriage by confessing. Perhaps its less threatening to you to decide that what happened was *your* fault for confessing, because you can better control your outcomes in the future by deciding that you'd never again confess (and by proxy, advising others in MB to not confess).<P>But the existence of other marriages than yours, marriages in which total honesty reigns, belies the fallacy of this approach. Why devalue honesty, when it makes for the best marriage? Anyhow, I've sensed for some time a tone of despair in your posts, and the whole discussion of your man-less, sex-less future life screams out a desire for companionship (and yes, sex). Your "holding men and women to a high standard of conduct" seems to me, really, to translate into an unattainable standard of conduct, to defend yourself from ever falling in love. I'm very sad for you. I know you're still healing from what happened to you. But hardening yourself will only leave you bitter, and it doesn't have to turn out that way.<P>Bystander
Posted By: CJB80 Re: An update... - 03/17/00 03:32 PM
I had to sleep on this before I added my two cents worth to this obvious controversy. <BR>What I have to say is this: We are responsible before God to obey God's word, not man's word.....no matter who that man is or what his position of authority is. It does not take a degree in marital counseling for a pastor to teach and uphold God's word. All it takes is for that pastor to know God's word and to do what he is called to do--tell the truth and teach what God's word has to say not what he thinks is right or wrong. MB principles work because they uphold God's word--there's nothing here that violates what God has to say about marriage. Unfortunately, I've found far too many pastors and Christian counselors who are teaching practices that do. Maybe they have good intentions, as I'm sure Jill's pastor does....but good intentions do not make a marriage work.<BR>Jill, you need to find out what God wants you to do--not what your pastor wants you to do. And the way to find that out is to ask Him first. Don't make the mistake I did by assuming that your pastor knows what is best in this situation. I also trusted my pastor's better judgement because my pastor (or shall I say--former pastor) and his wife were my husband and I's best friends. His better judgement led to the worst nightmare I've ever experienced in my entire life. I learned from hard experience that God should have the first say and the final say...He knows what is best for both you and your husband.<P>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Psalm 42
Posted By: TheStudent Re: An update... - 03/17/00 04:17 PM
Bystander, <BR>Thanks for your concern. I can understand why you think I am devaluing honesty when I encourage people not to confess. There are very few people I give this council to. The rest I just keep silent. My goal is to let them know they have other options if they want to save their marriage, and that Harley's way isn't the only way.<P>My life is sex-less yes, and is without a "man" in the traditional sense. I do have male friends, some pretty good ones too. And I have good friends and love and companionship. You say that I've built up my arguments to resist falling in love. You are partly correct. "Falling in love" is an illusion, because the feeling of love has nothing to do with actual love. Actual love has nothing to do with sex. The men who are in my life now are here because of who I *am* not because they think I'm going to have sex with them. That is a nice feeling. It is also a nice feeling, because when I meet a man now, I have absolutely no expecations. It is liberating for them too. I can enjoy their company without wondering, does he meet this requirement or that requirement for "partnership". Even when I happen to click with a guy, it still doesn't shake my resolve because I know that if I did have sex with him and it didn't work out, he'd be out of my life. That is just the way I am. I'd rather keep him as a friend. Now, I know there are probably guys out there (and women too) who would rather just have sex for however long than have no sex and be a friend. Well, guys who fall into that category don't stay in my life for long. In the meantime, I'm not being subjected to STD's, or whatever. <P>Yes, I do hold men and women up to a pretty high standard. I would like men to spend at least as much time working on their emotional skills as they would spend on whatever other hobbies they have. I hope women will be self-sufficient before bringing children into the world. Falling in love is a nice thing, but it doesn't feed your children if things don't work out. <P>You are right, it doesn't have to be this way. I have other choices. All I have to do is observe the lives of my friends who date regularly. Now THAT is sad. I'm here for a shoulder to cry on whenever they break up with whomever. And when they meet someone new that they like, I'm genuinely happy for them and wish them the best, but still have to shake my head at the futility of it. I don't understand why they, or you even, believe that the only way to feel loved is in a sexual, romantic relationship with a person of the opposite sex. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 17, 2000).]
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