Marriage Builders
Our concelor told us that in most relatioonships that suffer from affiars one of the parties us usually passive agressive.<P>she contends that the passive spouse is usually the wayward spouse because they have failed to make thier wants and needs known. Eventually they become frustrated and have an affiar.<P>I was wondering....<P>How many of our wayward spouses fit this passive agressive mold? Mine certainly does.<P>Love your feedback.<P>Acacia
Wow, this subject is near and dear to my heart. Yes, passive aggressive behavior is a definate problem with the WS. The affair is both passive and aggressive.<P>You should buy the book "How to live with the Passive Aggressive Man". Very interesting. You can even search for the book by the title and it will give you a long synopsis of what is in the book.<P>We exacerbate the problem by being the Victim, the Rescuer or the Manager!!!! <P>Not tons of ideas of what to do....because a lot of work has to be done by the PA person, but it does give some ideas for setting communicaiton boundaries.
My initial reaction to being passive aggresive as a WS was NOT ME!! I always thought it was the other way around as I am always up to verbalizing my wants and needs!<P>Yet, as I thought about it, I realized that there were a lot of things I guess I didn't say due to fear...I guess you can add me to the list!
Posted By: LAD Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 12:52 PM
H certainly a passive agressive personality, I may be that, as well. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] L
Posted By: SKM Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 01:08 PM
As a WS, I think you can put me on the passive list. . .but at the time, I really thought I was verbalizing my needs, but maybe my H wasn't taking them seriously. . .I don't know. . .I definitely kept some things to myself. . .
Posted By: smidgen Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 01:40 PM
I can go along with that. On the other hand, there wasn't much point expressing my wants/needs after H told me that wasn't what he got married for and he wasn't going to do it.
Posted By: fairydust Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 04:48 PM
My H was/is totally passive aggressive (and major conflict avoider) although he has improved a lot since this whole mess! When he informed me, basically out of the blue, that he was leaving me (although of course there was no OW lol) I wanted reasons. Naturally he couldn't come up with any really good ones but he said that I always "got my way" in our relationship. How did this manifest itself. Example: <BR> Me: Would you rather see movie A or B?<BR> Him: I'd rather see A but I don't really care<BR> Me: I'd really like to see B, is that ok with you?<BR> Him: Sure<BR>I swear to God this was the kind of stuff he was talking about! And in his mental state at the time of the affair he seemed to feel that I deserved to be punished for always getting my way. I thought he really didn't care. He was also always doing other people's work at his job. He is an exec and if a secretary complained she was "too busy" he would just do everything himself even though it was her job. He would help other people with accounts which he was promised credit for (which involves $$), the other person never gave him the credit and he never said a word. Of course all of this stuff outraged him, but he just bottled it up. He has now learned to be better about making his feelings known, which in turn helps our communication. Of course I realize that he will always have these tendencies and so often if he says "Movie A" and I really don't care (but would slightly prefer movie B) then movie A is fine with me.
Posted By: Nellie1 Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 08:08 PM
Absolutely. One of our kids said the other day, "I wish Daddy would just say what he really wants."<P>My H would go along not offering any input on decisions, or if you asked him to do something he didn't want to, he would say he would and then never get around to it, or he would do something and then feel resentful but never mention it...<P>Now he has just transferred the decision-making role to the OW. <P>If you let someone else make all the decisions, then nothing is your fault..
Posted By: Dynamo Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 08:44 PM
I think my WS is passive too. When we got into looking at the reasons for the A, I was shocked to find I had a W that was afraid to express her feelings. Something I never would want. I guess that makes me agressive.<P>I don't want it that way at all. I want a marriage of equality...
Posted By: yes_dup18 Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 08:52 PM
OK, donning flame-proof garb here, but my first impression on reading this, is that it seems there is more of a connection between passive-aggressive behavior and betrayal for men than for women. I was initially the betrayer, six+ yrs into my marriage, and I think my H DuncanMac would probably agree that at that time, *he* was passive-aggressive. In his family, men did NOT show strong emotions, plus his father was always totally clueless about expressing or understanding needs anyway. <P>I think a lot of men are brought up without much of an education in understanding the emotions and needs of both *themselves* and others, or how to express them. A lot seem to "stuff it" and seethe. Now guys, I'm *not* saying all guys are doofuses; just the inheritors of centuries of social conditioning. When DMac & I first went to counseling (at my behest, I was headlong into my affair and miserable), he really had some "lightbulb in the head" moments. He turned out to be very 'educable'! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>I certainly had my passive-aggressive periods too, during the "dark years"... there was a lot of anger on both our parts... but overall was better at expressing myself early in the marriage than Dunc was (although not neccessarily expressing myself *skillfully*, w/o LBs!). It does seem that a lot of the women BSs describe their wayward H's as p/a.<P>Does this make sense to anyone, or am I way out in left field? (Do I need a fire-extinguisher now? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] )
I have heard this term of Passive/aggressive (p/a) on another thgread. honestly, I can somewhat piece it together what it is, but I would like someone out there to give me a definition and the common tendencies associated with p/a behavior.<P>I have the need to put my H in a catagory. He can't just be an A**hole! He never expressed any needs to me, nor did he ever stand up for himself, and he always gave over to me the things he did not want to deal with(emotionally and stressfully.)<P>Even now being the WS, he cannot make up his mind to come off that illusive fence! <P>Maybe he is p/a, or maybe codependent, like me, or just plain obsessive. But he really doesn't show or discuss emotions. When things were going wrong, I tried to get him to talk, and all I got was silence and this far-off look. For years I did that, becoming more and more vicious with the discussions, trying to provoke some affection or anger--nothing. It was like he was running away from me and his family and the stress of being the head of the family. <P>But HE is the one that dumped his values, and had an A.
Posted By: Rick37 Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/21/00 11:10 PM
I'd like to hear the exact definition too. I know that my wife says now "I tried, I tried", but during this so called trying phase, she always told me she was happily married, so maybe I'm dense but I took that to mean that those little things (so I thought) that she would sometimes mention in passing, obviously weren't that important. She says now that she was only telling me what I wanted to hear. But I was also a conflict avoider, and would not speak up when I should have. Hence she has OM and I'm trying to save our marriage.<P>Does that fit into Passive Aggressive? I don't know.
So you want a definition? Let's start with the history. The term was first coined in WWII by an Army psychiatrist who had been trained to deal with strong negative reactions. Some recruits dealt with rigorous institutionalized structure well, and others perished and protested. Very often it was through resistance, ingoring orders, withdrawing or wanting to flee. This behavior was labeled "passive-aggressive" and was described as an immaturity reaction.<P>The passive-aggressive person misconstues personal relationships as being struggles for power, and sees himself as powerless.<P>The key in dealing with PA is to correct this misconception and help him/her feel more empowered.<P>You are always receiving mixed messages because they want you to guess what they want almost as much as they want to fool you are string you along.<P>"I can't live without you" they may say as they walk out of the room.<P>Or when alone "why are you always around" which means "i'm terrified that you will leave me"<P>Avove all, the PA is riddled with conflict, contradictions and convoluted layers of truthes which guide him and to which he clings. But when you look close you will see an angry person who is afraid of anger and hides behind a screen of congeniality. . Acamouflage of self protection. <P>Profile: fear of dependency, fear of intimacy,fear of competition, obstructionism, fostering chaos, feeling victimized, making excuses or lying, procrastination, chronic lateness and forgetfullness, ambiguity, sulking!!!!!<P>What do you think so far?<P>Those of us involved with a PA person, may actually perpetuate the problem... or even gravitate to this type of person, via the victim role, the manager role or the rescuer role.<P>This is all from the book "living with the passive aggressive man" by Scott Wetzler, Ph. D. Good book.<P>I particularly liked the chapter on "who falls for the pa man"<P>Much of the suggestions are regarding setting your boundaries in communication. Using lots of "feeling statements" (less threatening), and helping the person empower themselves!!!!!<P>Does this help?
Thanks for all of the great replies. This is truly insightful for me. I have attached the official deffinition of PA below. In general however, PA people tend not to want to face thier problems and fears directly. They do so instead in an indirect way. They have trouble expressing what they want.<P>For instance consider this turn of events.<BR> You both decide to go to movie A. <BR> The PA person tells you he wants to go to <BR> movie A even though he does not. <BR> The PA person procastinates so that you <BR> both miss the movie.<P>This is how PA people address problems and they very often are not even aware that they are doing it. They will not confront issues directly but will find a passive agressive way of dealing with things that allows them to escape direct confrontation with the person of issue that is bothering them.<P>When enough resentment build up toward thier spouse due to unmet needs and wants, they seek a new relationship rather than directly confronting the issues that need to be discussed with thier spouse.<P>Here is the book definition.<P><BR>Ask the Expert - Passive-Aggressive Behavior <BR>Q. What is passive-aggressive behavior and how do you treat it? Is it actually a personality disorder? <BR>A. The term passive-aggressive, when used to describe a defense mechanism, refers to indirect resistance to authority, responsibility and obligations. Associated symptoms include complaining, irritability when faced with demands, and general discontent. Anger is usually expressed indirectly via resistance, delays, losing things, procrastination and sabotaging one's own efforts or those of others. In theory, the individual does not intentionally set out to irritate others or to oppose authority, in the manner, say, of a rebellious teenager. Rather, the P-A individual unconsciously acts out his or her anger in the manner described. <P>In past manuals of psychiatric disorders, such as DSM-III, passive-aggressive personality disorder was an official diagnosis. In DSM-IV, it was downgraded to a condition requiring further study, probably because the P-A patterns of behavior can be seen in so many other disorders, such as borderline and dependent personality disorders. The treatment of any of the personality disorders is quite difficult, since there is usually little motivation on the patient's part. For details, I would refer you to Treating Personality Disorders, edited by David Adler, New Directions for Mental Health, 1990. <P>webmaster@mhsource.com<BR>
Posted By: Lapeine Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/22/00 02:46 AM
H the WS is definitely passive aggressive. I don't know. A could be his way of lashing out.
Fairydust- We must be married to the same man. We had the very same movie discussion. It seems so simple to me to just say no lets see something else. But for my H, this is a big issue. I will look for the book you noted. It can't hurt. <P>Suse - I think you have a point about men not being socialized in the same way as woman. It is actually something I have often pondered.<P>Too Trusting - Thanks for the history and the great description you posted<P>Burned and Ricky 3 - Looks like you have a few definitions of PA here! It is a difficut concept - at least for me since I generally say what I mean.<P>Star, Lad, Nellie SKM, smidgen, Dynamo - It seems there is something to my councelors theory since we all share this issue.<P>I would like to encourage others to post too if they feel this fits them as well.<P>Acacai
Yes, my H, the WS, definately has PA traits as well. We have had the same discussion about where to go to dinner! He is a conflict avoider, too. My counselor basically said that he was not getting his needs met, but was not telling me what they were, and this OW started meeting his needs and therefore the A started. Pretty cookie cutter PA, huh!<P>Does he want me to guess what he wants---all the time and it makes me nearly crazy! Just tell me what you want, and I'll do it, but please don't make me try to figure it out. Kind of like the flowers I got this week with the following message (posted about it in another thread)<P>"A successful marraige requires falling in love many times. Always with the same person." Does this mean that he IS falling in love with me again, WANTS to fall in love with me again, or just KNOWS that is what has to happen in order for our marriage to work? I don't know.... However, I'm taking it as a very good step in the right direction and not trying to interpret it!<P>Best of luck to all that have this type of S, it's not easy to deal with!
I often wonder if my two-timing wife is passive aggressive or is it just that she is soooooo in love with this guy that she's trashing 12 years of marriage and ruining our 4 y.o. daughter's life for HIM!<P>She insists that it is not HIM and that this has been coming on for years (her changed feelings for me). She never gave me a hint, in fact anything but. She expressed just the opposite with things like "you're stuck with me baby," "I'd be lost without you," "Our hero."<P>By the way, she's 42 and has reunited with a man she had the hots for (and he for her) back in HIGH SCHOOL for God's sake!!!<P>What do you think? Passive agressive or deep denial?
Posted By: gsd Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/22/00 06:36 PM
CAT-<BR>MLC or recapturing youth? Maybe she just feels like she missed out on something.<P>BTW:<BR>Does anyone know of any strategies for relating to the passive agressive male? I read parts of the book of the same title. I understand the concept--it is complicated, though--but I cannot think of ways to stop being the rescuer, manager, or victim. <P>Tootrusting--<BR>Your explanation was wonderful and quite helpful. Especially the part about seeing the relationship as a struggle for power and feeling powerless. That is EXACTLY what my husband sees our relationship as: a struggle for power where he feels like the underdog who has not had his needs met. He changes his mind, doesn't follow through, sabotages projects, says things and then takes them back, makes decisions that I believe are mutually beneficial and then find out that he doesn't want it and only "did it for me." He harbors anger and resentment toward me for expecting him to follow through on things he says. He is yo-yoing me back and forth since he left He left me because: 1) he felt like I made him feel like less than a man 2) he feels like we want different things (don't even know what they are--he can't be clear about it 3) he doesn't like our chemistry. I was unhappy because I want an equal relationship--like Dynamo wants. Open, honest, with solid boundaries and easy communication. He is an artist and says that working through his issues would be detrimental to his creativity. I feel like my patience is running out. I also feel that I have some PA tendencies. I am a pleaser--as is he--and often out of fear of angering him do not express my wishes very well. I sometimes sulk. . . .I want to sulk now. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: rrunrr Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/22/00 07:58 PM
I guess I understand what and why the councelor I went to gave me this label. My W , the one with the A even while denying it, also agrees that she did not communicate well. (She expressed this to a third party.)<BR>Her brothers and mother all have said that there was not alot of expressing needs or emotions in their family as they grew up. Also, their father died when my W was just about to graduate from highschool.)<BR> My youngest BIL mentioned months ago that he realized that he was not expressing his love to his wife and THAT needed to change since she was about to have their first child. He changed because he knew he would have to be able to say "I love you" to his child and thus began showing more toward his wife.<BR>Sorry to ramble...talked to W earlier, I'm trying to be invited for a visit. <P>rrunrr<BR>
Posted By: kam6318 Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/22/00 08:35 PM
I'm not sure about the "aggressive" part (maybe sometimes), but my H definitely qualifies for the passive label.<P>Comes from whole family of conflict avoiders, who are all very passive (til they leave).<P>He has been in counseling for depression, and overcoming this passiveness and being willing to risk showing who he really is and what he really wants is where she is focusing effort. And, I see progress...<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>
Thanks for the definition. yes my h is definitely that way. I love categories, we all seem to fit into one profile or another!<BR>Can the codependant be happy with the P/A? I don't know.<P>I also have had that darn dinner scenario!! We do it all the time... We have company in from out of town, he calls a very expensive rest. and of course, they are filled, so he pouts about where to go now. "Where do you want to go, Where do you want to go?" We go back and forth with it all the time. <P>This last weekend, with his sis visiting, he got so disgusted that for the first time in his life, he simply said he would not go out and we could go where we wanted. The kids were by that time also acting up because of the tension they felt, so they were denied going too. He stayed home and babysat while I took his sis and her H to dinner to meet their cousin and D! I was taking out HIS family! Isn't that a scream!! I had the best time ever. <P>For once he did not go to a rest. and sulk and grump all the way through the meal, while the kids got worse and worse(reacting to his sour mood.) And drink until he got drunk and then put us all at risk on the drive home!!!<P>Now that I know, What do I do with it or him now? I am not supposed to be getting into his personality, or his recovery--he has to see it, and do something about it himself. I cannot do it for him. I do not want to be his psychiatrist(but I'll tell our therapist [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]) She can tell him(if she agrees.) <P>I have to learn, C-Dep is a hard thing to deal with, I am new at it. I cannot fix him, or our marr alone, or blame him for behavior patterns I have no right in trying to change! I need to let him be him, and decide for myself if he is right for me also. Tricky...huh?
Posted By: Lora Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/23/00 01:43 PM
My H seems to fit the profile too, except he openly expresses his anger in certain situations.. like driving. Maybe that is the only time he cam let it out and that is why it is so intense then?<P>We have had that conversation about movies and dinners and vacations. Or pattern is, I ask what do you want to do... He says I dont know "what do you want to do?" I state an idea or say I don't know and he doesnt respond. Then when the time approaches that we really need to make a decision about going we repeat the pattern and this time I do give a suggestion and say is that OK and then I go ahead and make plans for it. <BR>Several times I have not really gotten an answer from him and think we are still undecieded, then I hear him talking to someone eles telling them we are doing this. <P>Then in this whole affair thing he comes up with the "everything for Lora, nothing for H statement". So I guess he did feel that he had no imput. I guess i need to read that book. Can you tellus more about the spouses, tootrusting?<BR>Lora
Posted By: gsd Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/23/00 04:51 PM
My husband left feeling like he was powerless and he did "everything to make me happy." I look at decisions that he is abdicating responsibility for now: moving into our house, getting another dog, marrying me in the first place (which he says was not a wise decision at the time), and various other things. The problem is that those decisions were made at his intitiation. Now he says he felt pressure? Isn't that like changing the rules in the middle of a game? How am I supposed to know what makes him happy when he tells me the opposite?
Posted By: popeye Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/23/00 11:22 PM
For those who are unsure of what passive aggressive means, it refers to someone who is outwardly passive, but behaves in ways that have aggressive motivations. For example, if I am working on a project with a partner who doesn't like my ideas or style or whatever, rather than talk to me about the differences, she may secretly sabotage the project. On the surface, she may appear cooperative and "passive", yet her secret behaviour actually reveals her "aggressive" motivations. It's basically a dysfunctional way of showing your hostility rather than confronting issues head on. <P>My STBX is certainly passive aggressive, at least when it comes to relating with me. He learned it from his family! His whole family relates to the world in this way.<P>But I don't think that it is necessary to have this trait to be a betrayer. I think that being passive aggressive makes it more likely that the person will try to resolve difficulty with infidelity though. I think in my H's case, his affairs were a passive aggressive way of "getting me back" for all my perceived failings. I think it was his way of covering up for the lack of communication on both our parts. I think that because of learning this way of relating, it was all he knew how to do -sadly.<p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited September 23, 2000).]
Posted By: KristyAnn Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/24/00 01:37 AM
I can hardly believe what I'm reading. I thought my H was a one-of-a-kind. He fits the description of the PA male perfectly. I, too, would like more info about dealing with this kind of personality. I'm going to have to get that book!<P><P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers,<BR>KristyAnn
Read my post, "P/A-a new website"<P>I did not name it well and I am not sure it will attract the readers.<P>(Like anyone here at MB needs another website on phys. A's!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com])<P>: [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]ops::
Posted By: sidney Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/24/00 08:32 PM
Really good thread. Does make me wonder, though, whether the P/A male is not necessarily a personality disorder but rather a result of the male socialization process within our culture.<P>Typically, American (maybe all, I'm not sure) men deal with stress via the fight or flight response. And, for men, 'fight' usually means aggression. Couple that with the fact that most little boys are taught early on that it's not acceptable for them to hit little girls. Or exhibit any type of violence towards females, in general.<P>So, when they get really angry at their wife (or women, for that matter), they flee into P/A behaviour, rather than running the risk of losing control and perpetrating some type of aggression.<P>I'm just basing this on things that my classic P/A H has said and done. He is a master at bottling up his anger. But, I have witnessed a couple of occasions where it has bubbled up to the surface and he has become so enraged that it was frightening to witness. It appeared to me that he was completely out of control. Consequently, I got into the habit of P/Aing as well because I was afraid of provoking this fury inside of him.<P>It seems to me that P/A is very, very common, especially with men. I can't help but wonder if it's because men generally don't seem to have the skills to be able to "fight" without becoming violent. So, they avoid conflict, altogether.<P>Our counselor zeroed in on H's conflict avoidance tendancies (with me) right away. She pointed out to him that in his position of authority within his job he had to deal with conflict all the time. She said, "So how did you do that?" He replied, "I just dealt with it."<P>So, if they can deal with conflict in the outside world, why can't they successfully do it with us???
Posted By: Nellie1 Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/24/00 10:59 PM
sidney,<P>I think it is because they don't care if their co-workers, or the outside world, love them, but they are afraid that if they display anger at their spouse, or vice versa, their spouse will stop loving them. <P>My son (14) has said to me that even though I have told him that I love him all the time, even when I am angry with him, he doesn't really believe it. He actually believes that people stop loving during the time that they are angry. Sometimes I think that believing that love and anger can not co-exist is also more common in males.
Posted By: sidney Re: Affairs and Passive agressive behavior - 09/24/00 11:21 PM
Wow, Nellie, that's really interesting! I never thought of it in that way-- anger and love not coexisting. <P>Often times, I get the feeling that my H doesn't think he's entitled to feel anger towards me. And, now, it's gotten even worse. He feels so guilty for what he's done. And, the fact that I've hung in there makes him feel even worse. The way he talks about me, one would think I'm the next candidate for canonization. He says stuff like, "You've been the perfect wife, you've done nothing wrong, you are the nicest person I've ever met, you deserve much better..." I almost get the feeling that he wishes I would kick his A$$.
I pointed out to my H once that from my point of view, it was easy for the OW to accept and live with certain problems he had because she did not have to bear any of the consequences of his thoughts actions like he and I did. He said he felt that there might be someting to that.<P>For example, when my H got tired of his job, she encouraged him to quit even though he did not have another job lined up. When he called me to say he wanted to quit that day, I encouraged him to think about it first and then if he still felt that he wanted to quit, then he should quit.<P>Well of course I was construed as unsupportive while she built up as the understanding one. But at the end of the day, it would not effect her. <P>She would not be the one to have to deal with the daunting task of collecting her self-esteam and undertake a job search nor of the problems associated with his lost income. In fact she had something to gain. She also disliked the work environment and the manger of the company.<P>Eveyone was encourageing my H to quit and had he, they each would have gotton that "stick it to managemnt" sence of satisfaction without risking anything of thier own - her too. I believe that he was too upset at the time to see this but it was clear as day to me. I just wanted him to do what he wanted and to think about what each choice would mean to him.<P>This very same person who was so"supportive" of my H told her own H that she was mad at him becasue she could not quit becasue he did not make enough money:0 Now there is someone who takes responsibility for herself! <P>From her point of view it is not her H fault that sho could not leave when in fact she could have taken a temporary job in order to allow her to leave. She is an administrator and would have no problem finding an agency to place her but instead she blamed her H for not making enough money. Kind of makes you wonder what she would have said to my H if she were in my shoes the day I got his call from my H about quiting.<P>But... my point is that it was easier for him to talk to her - it let him avoid facing the consequences of his thoughts and actions. If I did not like it or if I disagreed, it was just too much for him to take. If only he would have told me then just how much he wanted to quit. Instead he felt I made him stay because I did not give him the same response she did.<P>Acacai<BR>
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