After the ride, my thoughts on the life and times of infidelity

Marriage Builders

During my ride on this roller coaster ride that we call infidelity, I have grown and my ideas have changed quite a bit on the subject. I still believe that marriage & family is a very important thing and one that should not be discarded lightly. I feel that a marriage should be saved if possible. But there are some differences between how I felt then and how I feel now about the situation. Before... I couldn't imagine and didn't want to try to imagine my life without my H in it. He was such a big part of my life that it was like half of my being was gone. I knew where it was, I could see it but it was just out of reach. I thought that if I did this and if I did that, that eventually he would come around and come back to our life together. And he did but I nearly destroyed myself in the process. Or should I say that I nearly let him destroy me. Which ever, when I look back on it now and think about how I was and how many nights I tortured myself and allowed him to torture me as well, I get very angry at myself for not being stronger and more independent. If this would happen to me again, if he would to have another affair I know without a shadow of a doubt that our marriage would be over because I would not stand for it again. NEVER!!!!With all due respect to the Harley's, because I do believe that they do great work and help many couple stay together which should be the way it works. I can't help but beleive that some of the ideas and principals behind their methods are misconstrued or even wrong, depending on how these philosophies are perceieved.For example... The plan A: I feel should be a short period of time. But some of us {me included} held on and held on waiting for our undying efforts to make a difference. To change their minds. To touch their hearts, to bring them back. The only thing that it did for me was to allow my H to continue his affair and know that he still had a place to come home to when he was done playing his little boyish games. He never felt that he was in any danger of loosing his family because there I was re-assuring him that I loved him and wanted our marriage. He knew that he didn't need to be in any kind of a hurry because I was there waiting for him the entire time.Whenever he would feel me slipping away or notice that I hadn't contacted him in a few days he would get in touch merely to feel the waters. I would take it as a sign that he was missing me or possibly interested and again re-assure him that I still loved him and wanted him back. Once he again realized that I hadn't gone anywhere and was still waiting on him, he knew that it was safe to play a little longer. There was still time on the clock, hell he saw that he hadn't even reached 1/2 time yet let alone the 2-minute warning of the fourth quarter. So the game continued. But there did come a time when we did get down to the 2-minute warning. I had had enough and I was tired of playing this game of his. Basically what happened is that there was an occurance that was the last straw for me. He doubted this and tried to feel out the situation again seeing if we could go into overtime I guess, but like I said I had enough and he saw that I wasn't willing to go into overtime and that is when he no longer felt safe playing the game and decided no to play anymore either and came home. I truly believe that if I had re-assued him that day that I still loved him and was waiting on him that the roller coaster ride of infidelity would have continued.Having rambled that... I just think that plan A is good for a short period of time but to go on and on and on with it, is only prolonging the affair. Because they are not in fear of loosing anything because they know that it is still there for them whenever. Thus prolonging the agony for us the BS. That is wrong!!! That isn't love that is selfishness.When I stopped playing the game and took the first steps to ending the game with a D as he had stated he wanted... suddenly he didn't want it anymore. He didn't know what to do because he didn't have any control anymore. You see, all this time he was calling the shots and he had the control over all of our lives. In many ways I was his puppet and he was the puppeteer, but when I cut the strings he got scared that he was going to loose his family and made some changes and put some effort into saving his family and his marriage. But up until that point, I was putting forth all the effort into saving the marriage and the family, so much that he didn't need to do anything because I was holding everything together just fine all by myself.Did he love me, yes I think he still loved me but he sure didn't show it! Did I prolong my own agony by Plan A'ing so long, I sure think I did. Did I do right or wrong? I think I did both. I did right by plan A'ing I just did it to long and that is where I believe that I went wrong.Could this be true for everyone? I don't know, only you can be the judge of that. But I will tell you this, it is definately a leap of blind faith. But I also think that if you plan A to long, you tend to loose their respect and come off as being needy and desperate. {As a matter of fact my H told me that many times} and he did not find me at all attractive like that either.I have given enough in my life and of my life. I refuse to be treated or taken for granted like that ever again. Life is to short and there are to many other men out there looking for a good woman. I will never again be treated so poorly even if that means being alone. For me.... Looking back and can see where I caused alot of my own pain and suffering by in essence allowing and condoning his actions and his affair by always being there waiting for him to come home. Genie

Hi Genie.......Are you OKAY? You sound bitter? Did I mis-read you? Do you feel bitter?I was not on the net when I found out about H's affair 1995.....years later......when I read the Harley philosophy.... I wondered about plan A too..... At the time of discovery, I was all alone, and without advice.... but looking back.... I threw myself directly into plan B. I did this by instinct. I told him "Choose now, I'm not going to wait around".... he believed me too! LOL! He chose me.This worked for me. I feel waiting around for someone to "choose" is humiliating.Hope you're OKAY.Take care.

I agree with you both, this waiting for him to choose is destroying every ounce of self esteem and dignity I have left. Each and every day I wonder if I should just severe all contact with him and see what happens. Been over a year at this and I do believe I am reaching the last thread of the rope. He knows that he can play with my feelings and does whenever it suits him. Our son (3 yrs. old) gets very confused and angry at him, since he never knows when he'll be here, for how long or when the next time will be. I admire you both and am so happy that it has worked out for the both of you. Best to you in the future. By the way Genie29, you don't sound bitter at all to me.

Yesterday, No I am not bitter, I am sorry if I came across like that. We are together and doing well {knock wood}...lol. I guess I tend to get a little mad at myself sometimes for putting up with so much when I do truly feel like some of it could have been avoided. When I read different posts from people I can relate in such a way that it is almost like I am reading what I wrote back then all over again. I guess it is just the hindsight vs. foresight thing. And I guess I am also kinda hoping that since these A's seem to be so familiar in many ways for some that maybe some of my hindsight can be someone else's forsight. I remember all to well what it was like and I hate the thoughts of anyone feeling the same.Perhaps, I shouldn't have made this thread, I don't know but I didn't mean to sound bitter at all. I am not bitter because I feel like I learned alot from the experience. I feel like I am a much stronger and independent woman now than I ever have been before and I like that. I guess for me now... my life is my own. I live for myself instead of living for my H. I choose to share my life with him and he chose to share his with me. I am definately a different person for having gone through all of this and I think I am a better one too. My H and my family mean alot to me don't get me wrong but unlike before... I mean something to myself too.Genie

Too hurt for words... I am so sorry for the frustration, confusion and hurt that you are feeling. I can relate all to well, believe me. Although I can't tell you what decisions to make for yourself and your family.... I would suggest that you concentrate on you more and less on your H. If and when he wants more.... you will need to have yourself together and not worn down by the mind games that some of these men play. Good Luck to you, Genie

Genie, thank you so much for posting this.I didn't see any bitterness in it at all, just truth. I think that it took awhile for me to realize that NOT accepting my husband's affair (in my face) was not wrong, but RIGHT. This didn't mean I loved him less, but that I was not going to condone his actions any longer, I was taking a stand for myself. Not with anger, but with love (for myself as well as him). Plan A, like you said, is meant for a certain time period. IMO, I think this is if you've had some serious problems in the past (not showing respect for your spouse, needing to learn better marriage communication skills, etc.). A short Plan A that shows your spouse that you love them, yet will not tolerate being treated like that, is the best bet, IMO (and speaking from what my H's actions have shown).I can only say that your sentiments mirror mine exactly. I think so many times that anger and bitterness can really seep into a marriage from an affair, and Harley's methods make sure that we understand that there are two parties to work on what's happened here. And if TWO PARTIES are willing to do the work, that is fine. But if one of those parties, the betrayer is not willing, then what to do? My husband only came around when I expressed to him my unwillingness to stay with him because of his affair. I know that some have said here that only the weak will leave a marriage when continuously bombarded with an affair, but it's pretty tough to have to stand firm after loving someone for so long and realizing that you cannot be with someone who has violated your trust and love to such a degree. Honestly, I could never go through that again with my H. And like you, I won't and he knows it. But at the same time, he also knows I love him. It's not a threat it's just something I cannot deal with again.A giving, loving marriage is what we're striving for (and it sounds as if you have a very healthy concept of this!), and we will make it. There are potholes along the way, but we can overcome them. [This message has been edited by Kayleigh (edited October 21, 2000).]

Hi Genie,Your language certainly sounds different than when around 10 months you lectured me in a post that Jim (NSR) has posted permanent for its profundity and meaning.Although I (smartly or stupidly) never followed Harley's rules from A to Z, I must say that what he teaches is, with other words, the same that many philosophies have thought throughout thousands of years: to truly love and understand; to forgive and forget; to know that "to every thing there is a season"; etc.We forget though, that there is not a single philosophy that teaches to put ourselves under or behind any other human being) i.e.: the Second Commandment instructs to love "Thy Fellow Being", but it also instructs to love oneself.I guess it has something to do with each person's resistance to mental pain as if it was physical pain. Years ago I accompanied an employee with alcohol problems to his first three or four meetings at AA. I'll never forget something that I heard there (I think that I even posted once about it): a man was wondering why some people -like my employee- were in the meeting since they had NOT YET "touched bottom" like himself, meaning what business had in AA people who weren't homeless, had a job and a family and apparently STILL had everything else in life. An old Mayan man got up and said something like "people are like 'cenotes' (sinkholes), some can hold more water than others but it is up to each person to decide when he's had enough".So it's up to each and everyone of us to decide how long we'll use Plans "A" or "B" or no plan at all —even Hurley mentions that 6 months is an average figure for Plan "A"—. I would go further to say that WE alone decide if we want to try to rekindle the old relationship (I'm against this), to try to start a total new relationship with the same person (I'm pro this one) or to move on (which is what I finally did).There is an interesting short story worth to read, you'll find a summary here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/001157.html" TARGET=_blank>WHO MOVE MY CHEESE?</A> Good luck, Genie. I still thank you for that post that made a terrible night become bright.Alex------------------ Live fully and always learn

Dear Genie,It is interesting to read these posts and wonder if you wrote them yourself, isn't it?I too, have read many posts and was amazed with the similarities. Your's in particular caught my attention. I feel somewhat bitter and my H has been home since Feb. of this year, and we struggle still.I was weak and needy, did and said many things to H that I now wish I hadn't. He was wiping his feet and b--- on me Big time, until I finally had the guts to say NO MORE!! You will treat me with dignity and respect, even if you don't THINK you love me. I deserve that much!I often wonder if his affair would have died a natural death and in reality, did it? I sometimes think he came home too early, and if I had left him alone, and not been so persistent in his making a choice, would he have chosen her in the end instead of me?I get bitter sometimes with myself for not knowing for sure, me or her? Is he here out of comittment to the children? Do you think these questions can create animostiy between us, even if only one of us is doing the questioning? Am I making any sense here?For instance: ( about a year ago) She told me she did'nt want any part of our triangle any longer, he was listening on the other phone. He went off his rocker, that night... he got drunk, drove 70 miles to her house, 105 mph, to beg her not to let him go, b/c he worshipped the ground she walked on...She refused to see him, he came back home late, devastated. Would he do this for me? Has he ever worshipped the ground I walk on? I don't think so!!!I sincerely believe, if I had taken the course of action H thought I would take when I discovered them, which would have been D, he would be with her today. But, instead I fought for my marriage and my H. Now I ask, did I do the right thing? Did I screw up a sincere love affair that was supposed to be? Was I in the way? Should I have let him go, hoping he would find his way back to me someday?Does any one else struggle with these questions? This is probably not even in the same ballpark with this topic.Cathy

Hi Genie, I don't think you sound bitter, but STRONG.....as to Plan A ,one of the posters, (I can't remember who) was told by Jenn Harley that Plan A should be short....3weeks or so!!!!......in the book it says usually no more than 6mos..... I agree that Plan Aing too long drains one of self respect and esteem....by the 5th month I was a shell of a person and felt much better in Plan B...in fact , like you, will NEVER go through this again ever....LU

Thank you for informing me you are not bitter... but rather empowered!If anyone is miserable in plan A..... say, after 3 weeks..... what would your advice be?------------------ ~*~*Yesterday~*~* all my problems seemed so far away~*

Thank you for all of your replies to my thread here. In stead of trying to address you all individually I am going to try and do it all at once. As far as the question as to how long to Plan A... that is one that must be made on an individual basis according to the circumstances. Three weeks I tend to think is rather short depending on how you look at it. Let me just say this.... At that point there are still alot of raw emotions that you are still trying to deal with. I don't think that I would Plan B but distance myself in a way that I could basically plan A myself to get myself together somewhat. Yesterday, I am not sure whether you are still living with your S orjust what the circumstances are at the moment but I guess the best advice I could offer you is to put yourself first for awhile. Think about what you need to become stronger in your mind. Although I would not go to Plan B just yet, I wouldn't kiss his tail and try to turn myself inside out for him either. Be respectful and kind, but most importantly be respectful and kind to yourself and expect a degree of the same in return from your H. Take a step back and regroup yourself. Catplay, I went through exactly the same thing as it seems you are. There were many time that I questioned the way things turned out and what my H's true feelings were and if I had done the right thing in the end by reconciling. Wondered if he was happier with the OW than with me. Wondered if it b/c of the children or b/c of me. Doubted the reassurance that he offered with scepticism. I think this is somewhat of a safety mechanism that is hard to turn off. But this is what I finally decided. The fact was he was with me and our family and more than anything in this world I did want it to work our for many reasons. And the best way to help ensure that was that I had to turn off these thoughts and stop all of this second guessing the issues that at the moment were not the most important thing. If you want your marriage to suceed you must concentrate on that and know that second guessing and wondering all of those what if's isn't healthy for you or the recovery of your marriage. As hard as I know it is, you must try to cut them off and strive to put your mind somewhere else whenever they hit. The will not be at all productive only counterproductive and you must be positive during this period. Concentrate on today and tomorrow. Make today and tomorrow the best that you can for both you and your H and you will be just fine. Yesterday doesn't matter right now... your can't change any of that and trying and analysing it will only help destroy the present.Love and prayers to all Genie

Hi Genie,I find your post to be reflective, honest, and completely realistic. Like you, I have a great respect and admiration for the Harleys and their principles. But I also know there is not a "one-size-fits-all" plan for dealing with infidelity.Here is what plan A did for me. After the initial shock wore off and I read the books and found this site, I decided to give plan A a try. It made my husband angry for me to be nice to him. Some of that was guilt, but some of it was it did make me appear weak and unwilling to be strong and stand up for myself. On our anniversary, I began to really try to do a "good" plan A, after about two months of uncertainty about the future of our marriage. I plan A'd well, not perfectly, but very well considering my nature. Now I know that about three months of plan A was enough to convince him that what he did wasn't really so bad, so he decided to pick up where he had left off. So the recontact started and continued for about five months until I rediscovered the affair.Now I am doing plan P (as in peppermint), and he realizes that this is his absolute last chance to have any kind of relationship with me. I'm not sure how good those chances are, but I have agreed to commit myself to our marriage for the next seven months, and at that time we will reevaluate our progress and our future.My point is that I absolutely agree that plan A does SOMETIMES become plan doormat if it goes on too long without real progress being made. I don't think there is one time limit that is right for everyone, but I know that I made it far too easy for firestorm to step over me to reach the other woman. NEVER AGAIN.Thanks for this post. It comes at a time when I really need the encouragement.Peppermint

I plan Aed in my both my marriages. I didn't read the Harleys then but I read a lot and because I know of many good Christian couples who treat each other by fulfilling needs, I based my marriage on that. I believe that a lot has to do with the person you are married to.I was first married to an abused orphan who then abused me and was wayward to boot. He just walked all over me and kept manipulating my kindness. When the straw broke the camel's back, he still thought he had a chance until I left the house for good. He wrote to me that he was 'selfish and cruel and bitter and greedy and that he took my kindness and goodness for granted, etc..".This second marriage was almost like a dream and we fulfilled each other's needs except that he got drunk and commited adultery, yada yada yada. I told my WS that had I been a very fierce wife who would bobbit if he ever went astray he would even jump out of bed in his drunkeness but a good and wonderful and kind wife equals peace and comfort and forgiveness and non revenge!So for Plan Aers, now I really believe that for some wayward spouses, they will only snigger at their good fortune because the only 'punishment' they have is that suddenly the betrayed spouses are falling over themselves to be even nicer so that the WS will be enticed to stay. I can imagine how their egos got boosted again and they can fall into a habit - have an affair and the spouse will Plan A them.So, Peppermint is right - no one size fits all. I Plan B WS straightaway but he wouldn't go. He went down on his knees, did all the housework for the first time in his life, cooked for the first time in his life, and wept at my feet for the first time in his life.... He never even got down on his knees to propose, but ask him to get lost and he kneels down. So, it really depends on the state of the relationship and spouse. If you were Plan A in marriage pre-adultery, Plan B when A is exposed; if you were in a bad marriage pre-A, then plan A when adultery is exposed.?

HOW ARE YOU PEPPERMINT? WHAT IS THE MATTER? I SAW YOU BROUGHT UP TWO OLD THREADS. May God help you and Firestorm, and give you the strength, unity and courage and stamina.weep

I did Plan A too long--18 months, then kind of just existed for a couple months, then went to the "I'm divorcing him" plan.Okay, at that point, my H gathered himself together and began to Plan A me. If he had only done it for 3 weeks, we wouldn't be together. And, as I've posted, by that time I was involved with an OM. 3 weeks would have been nothing. But also consider, my H was not starting as a "betrayed" he was starting Plan A as someone who had continually hurt & betrayed me for almost 2 years. It took time & his consistant effort for me to believe his Plan A changes, it took time for me to consider trusting him, it took time for me to shakily try again.And, quite honestly, I was awful to him during parts of his Plan A. His Plan A gave me hope that we could have a marriage--a hope that had completely died. And my previous Plan A had given me the time to know who I was, what I optimally wanted--my family and marriage together--and that I would love unconditionally to enable that possibility. The memories & knowledge I gleaned during Plan A were also what I drew on to come back to the marriage. Other successful marriage programs also use the Plan A type concept: The MIDLIFE CRISIS trilogy by Conway LOVE LIFE by Wheat DIVORCE BUSTING by Weiner-Davis TORN ASUNDER by Carder AFTER THE AFFAIR by Springs HOW TO GET YOUR LOVER BACK by Harris MENDING BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS (forgot author) LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by Dobson (although this goes quickly to a Plan B type thing)I know I used aspects of all of these--and more. If you don't understand Plan A, or it doesn't feel right, there are other options, but most of them allow for a time of months, even years for the reconciliation to truly begin. It is a rare WS that has immediate no contact upon discovery, but the majority of WS want to try to reconcile at some point. Plan A & B allows the Betrayed to still be willing to reconcile as well.And, even though I think I did Plan A too long, if I had gone into divorce mode earlier, we'd probably be divorced, because there were many points at which a divorce was exactly what my H wanted, he just didn't want to initiate the proceedings--he thought that was my right as the betrayed (or something like that, it varied).I don't have any regrets for my long Plan A. Second guessing is inevitable, but I did what I did, and now we're together, even though we were on the edge of disaster for a long time and it concievably could have gone either way.------------------ Lor "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." (Proverbs 15:1).

Oops, meant to add another thought on respect.Plan A is not being a doormat, but it is difficult to find that line between dormatville and being a strong person who stands for their marriage no matter what the actions of their spouse.My H tells me that he was amazed at how I stayed loving toward him. He didn't lose respect...however that might just be semantics, because he certainly didn't treat me well. But given my "good" actions & attitude, he felt guiltier betraying, lying and doing the rest of his bad behavior.I do not think Plan A is weak behavior. You choose your course and stick with it, no matter how you feel moment by moment. You are a married person, and you decide your actions with no waffling no matter your spouse's actions. That's strength, not weakness. I've had many people tell me that they couldn't do what I did, as regards to Plan A. Sure, Guard's OW thinks I'm a fool, but her opinion is less than nothing to me. After all of this, with Guard's co-workers knowing, and it being common gossip in church & in our neighborhood, there are very few people that I care what they think.The correct response as far I am concerned with us back together is not "How could she/he take the other back" but "Wow, if they can make it through what they did, there is hope for most of us."Sorry, got off tangent, but I'll leave that statement anyway. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Well, I'm up there with Lor in terms of Plan A duration. I did nearly two years worth. I've filed for divorce and WANT IT, yet I'm really still Plan Aing, even after having let go of the marriage. It's a part of life now, part of the way I treat people respectfully.I want to stress a distinction though. Plan A, the variety that includes no lovebusters, is not being a doormat and does not erode self-respect. It can be done with boundaries, with limited contact/pursuit, and with honest yet respectful communication of feelings. I will say, however, that the attempted needs-meeting variety, conducted DURING a known, active affair, with a spouse that has no intention or commitment to end the affair, becomes humiliating and damaging to self respect. I am sure of it because I experienced it. When you send them gifts and love-letters, when you cook them great dinners, when you plan extravagant family outings and vacations, and when you make a great house for them to come home to after ******* the other person, and offer them sexual favors, it feels horrible. I feel strongly at this point that betrayeds should NOT do this needs-meeting behavior during an active affair.Just my two cents. Neither Plan A nor Plan B worked for me. I'm pretty clear that nothing would have worked.

I agree that Plan A does not equate to being a doormat. I think Plan B is well nigh impossible when you have children, as well as being absolutely horrible for the children. What is wrong is to pretend you no longer love your spouse when you do - pretending you do not care when you do is dishonest. As Distressed mentioned, it largely just a hypothetical matter. Nothing "works" when the WS is emotionally shut down.

Hey Coach!! LOLI connot say how much your wise council helped me! Even though the ending wasn't what I had planned. I did come out the a winner in all this, as I am a much better person because of my W's affair. I found Bill! And you know what? I like who I found!This post shares the same sentiments as that post you made last december. I remember it well. In fact it changed my life. I owe you a debt of grattitude I can never reay! I sincerly thank you.Anyone else reading this pay attention. This smacks of the cold reality known as Infidelity!Love Ya,Bill

Just to clear up on misconception that I think has been made I don't think that you should ever deny the way you feel. Meaning I don't think you should pretend not to care about your S if you in fact do. But caring about them should not hamper your from caring about yourself either. I never told my H that I didn't love him... I never told my H that I didn't want him, I just told him that I wouldn't put up with it anymore. That I could no longer be there for him in anyway when he so obviously didn't intend on being there for me. That wasn't pretending, that wasn't revenge... that was self-preservation.On another note... one of you I can't remember which right now {sorry} mentioned that your H wanted you to do the filing as he felt like it was something that the BS should do. My H felt very simuliar. I think alot of that has to do with guilt and alot of it has to do with their idea of due punishment. But when I told my H that if he wanted a D that he would have to be the one to file for it because I was not going to make it easy for him by taking the legal steps to end our marriage so that he could say that I D'd him. But if he wanted a D as he said that he did then he would have to do the D'ing. That isn't to say that I didn't take steps to protect myself and our children financially because I did through separation, visitation, child support and alimony orders. I think this also gave him a better look at what reality was going to be with a D. I could also tell that he wasn't so sure that he actually wanted a D. And forcing him to make that move was something that he realized that he just could not do and didn't really want to do. In my case, my H was feeling so guilty that he didnt' think that he deserved "us" anymore and that in some ways "we" would be better off without him. In a strange way it was an act of love as he was trying to protect the children and myself from his own distructive behavior. He actually didn't trust himself not to hurt us again at that time. Genie

HI genie, It is hard to find the balanc during plan a, and often we find it later. But we DO find it, and that is what matters. Plan a is not being the doormat, but sometimes it sure feels that way! I do plan a, but with a strong outline of boundaries. THose boundaries include where I will bend and where I am standing real firm. Some of this self-protection is not always good either. I find myself not able to truly let my guard down and love completely like I used to. I miss that a lot in this relationship. But I do not want to give it up either becuase then the door is wide open for pain if another affiar occurs. Delicate balance? Yep!

Genie, I couldn't agree with this post more. Next week we're coming up on our 1 year d-day anniversary. We're in worse shape now than we were then. I too think I plan A'd too long, too much, and he uses/used to his advantage. Now Plan A regarding our relationship has ended. I've had enough. Plan A is still in place regarding my daughter as well as others in my life. I have a gone to Plan B which I did do briefly in the spring when he returned to ow. This is a modified Plan B. Tomorrow I start a new job, am signing divorce papers, and for the first time in a very long time, am excited to see what the Lord has in store for my future. Our pastor tells the story about a man who was visited by the police telling him to leave his home because a flood was coming. The man said, "I'm waiting on the Lord." Later the rescue squad came by in a boat and said, "Get aboard! The flood will get much worse!" and the man replied, "I'm waiting on the Lord!" Still later, a helicopter came by to get the man and his family off the roof of his home as the water had covered their home and the man said, "No thanks. I'm waiting on the Lord." When the man got to heaven he said to the Lord, "Where were you? I was waiting on You." and the Lord replied, "I was there-I sent the police, the rescue squad and the helicopter." Well, the helicopter is here and I'm getting on board.My H still believes that this too will pass. He's gone from asking me last Tuesday night, "Who's more important me or you?" I thought it was a joke so I said, "You." and he said, "Right." That did it for me. Something snapped. So since then his games have started. Game 1-act mad and she'll get scared I'll leave. Game 2-act like nothing happened and she'll get over it. Game 3-go back to game 1 and take off wedding band. Game 4-ask me to take him to live at parent's home (home almost empty and for sale). Game 5-threaten suicide. Last week my attorney told me if he threatens suicide again to hand him the gun and tell him to go for it. When I told my H this he went wild. Game 5 had died to quick death. Game 4 died about a month ago when I said, "Ask daughter if she wants to ride along."I believe my H would love to have ow back and still be here. She sent me a letter telling of the A and I know they both regret it. He's a cake man. He wants his family and her too. Ain't gonna happen. The problem is he now knows she's a joke and he's a joke for running with her. He's lost his "super salesman" status at work because of his behavior, he's lost his daughter, he's lost his reputation, he's lost his wife, his dirty little secrets are known in our church, and his little games don't work anymore. I think Plan A facilitated his activities. Don't get me wrong, I believe Plan A is Biblically based and healthy but to blindly apply it to all situations and recommend to people who are in emotional turmoil is dangerous.

Very interesting thread indeed...Life is trial and error.Hopefully, we all learn from our mistakes. Most of us probably would do things differently if we were faced with this *disaster* a second time.I have a *game plan* prepared for such a *disaster*...Moreover, each of us probably read PLAN A and PLAN B and come away with slightly different opinions regarding what is appropriate/inappropriate. Personally, although I'm not *perfect*, I felt as though I provided a good life, home, safe environment for my H. I was willing/have always been *open* to meeting his needs--open to change. However, because I was *certain* that H was aware of what I was capable of providing, I WAS VERY MUCH AGAINST PLAN Aing WHILE HE CONTINUED SLEEPING WITH OW.I would work 4 jobs, rent out the spare bedroom, ride my bike to work, and eat nothing but bread for a solid year--if need be--BEFORE I'D EVER PLAN A MY H while he was still involved with OW, AND STILL LIVING IN OUR HOME. But that's me. That's based on my personal history with my H.Count me in as one of the BSs that immediatly threw myself into PLAN B as well. Told H he was a free man...a BIG BOY...he could call the shots... but there was no possibility/chance that he could *keep us both*. Ultimatum???? Perhaps. But I saw it this way: H needed to make a grown up decision. I'm not sorry I did what I did. I was READY to go it alone. I WAS NOT AFRAID of losing him.I also never HID my feelings from my H. I laid everything out on the table. Now, I'm not saying I necessarily lovebusted--I'm saying that I shared my pain, my disappointment, my disillusionment with him. I questioned. I asked. And, in return, I expected honest answers.Every BS deserves to have their questions answered honestly. We need to *understand* what we're *fighting*. We need to examine what course of action we want to take...so we can make an informed decision.Aside from the occasional hateful words that I spewed in anger--I am not sorry for any of my actions--I would choose to react in the same fashion/manor in which I acted.My H's reaction to me??? First, anger. How dare I!!!! Months later he admitted that he was glad I stood up for myself--admitted that he *deserved* a good @$$ chewing--admitted that he took advantage of me... of my *person*--my trust, my belief in him, my unwaivering faith--IN HIM/IN US. But again, this is only MY STORY. MY COURSE OF ACTION WAS WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR ME.Possibly the only thing I would change, would be the amount of time I took before I started to *live* again--I wasted so much precious time moping...feeling sorry for myself. I'll never get that time back.My *words of wisdom* to BSs, simply this: BE TRUE TO YOURSELF.And, when you decide what that *truth* entails--act accordingly. DO THE RIGHT THING.Peace, ~MarieP.S. Forgot to add that once we had both made up our minds--that WE BOTH wanted our marriage--WE BEGAN MEETING EACH OTHER'S NEEDS (both PLAN A'd each other [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). We both extended an out-stretched hand--we gave each other *clean slates*...we started anew. And, most importantly, we continue to shape ourselves/our marriage into a better US.------------------ "If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited October 23, 2000).]

Genie, My H did the same thing you did. I had an EA and my H told me that he would agree to a D if it was what I wanted, but since it wasn't what HE wanted, he wasn't budging. I think at the time I wanted him to move out and leave me because of the guilt. Just as your H said, I felt I didn't deserve the love that he had for me since I had none to give back. I couldn't trust myself to not keep hurting him. I knew where my heart was and it wasn't in the marriage.Like your H, when forced to make the break myself, I couldn't do it. I was torn. I was't sure what I wnated anymore, who I was, my whole being was turned inside out. I went into counseling to sort it all out determined not to make any decisions until I was sure. My H decided to stay true to his feelings and stayed with me. I think if it was a PA, though, he probably wouldn't have stayed (he said so). And if the OM hadn't gotten scared and run away from the situation, he probably wouldn't have stayed too long.It's been since March now since I've seen the OM and things are better in my marriage but I still have thoughts of the OM. I'm still not 100% in my marriage. I don't know when (or if) that day will come, but we're both still hanging in there sorting it all out.

GenieI related to you posting, and am so greatful for your honesty. My H was very kind, compasionate, and so caring. But I rather think H is going through a mid life crises. The ow live in Germany, figure that one out. He has seen her three times, and as I write this is on his way back..I tried Plan A and the more I tried, the more I became his doormat. I had no dignity back..Yesterday, I got on my knees and surrendered everything to God..I am no longer in control, and I have put up boundaries. I am going into Plan B, with blind faith. But God is now in control, and my trust and faith are in Him. I am steping out of the way, so God can intervene and do His work. I am getting my dignity back, and I will tell him if he wants a divorce, which H has threatened all along, I will give it to him with a smile. Let's all watch and see if internet affairs really work

I think Marie stated my position the best, although no one knows what they would do until they are actually put to the test.When I discovered, I didn't know about any of this stuff, but I basically gave him his options:1. Leave 2. Stay for kids 3. Stay and make marriage better than before.I then said I would not participate in #2, nor would I tolerate any ongoing affair or any other affair anytime in my lifetime.I told him if he stayed, I'd be nice, work on forgiving him and not throw it in his face forever. I told him I thought our marriage could become even stronger.Like Marie, I was a good wife, was always open to change and we got along well.So I kind of tough loved him up front and when he stayed, Plan A'd.I think Plan A works best or is necessary if your demeanor or the needs you are trying to meet in Plan A is markedly different than before the affair. Mine was about the same, but tweaked. Of course if you only Plan A until the spouse recommits and then go back to old patterns of behavior, then it is futile anyway. So if Plan A is not your personality and you don't want to make it your personality, it is not going to work long term.Also plan A works better if you have a big stick. In other words if your spouse knows you have bounderies, and you are willing to make them stick, then Plan A does not go on and on indefinetly...gotta to...this is interesting!

Genie,I went through hell the past year and a half. My H first affair was a internet affair. He moved her and some of her kids clear across the country to live near us. anyway I plan A'd him all the way through it. He lived with her for 2 mos and then we reconciled. I lived with her continued problems and phone calls. I lived with H withdrawel ect. All the while being the loving supportive wife. H kept telling me just how happy he was ect until this summer when he met OW2. He now lives with her and her three kids in my house as my three kids and I are now moved out and living in a rented house. My divorce will be final anytime now. I am just waiting for the judges signature. I could not go through this again. I refused! I know my H is going through his MLC but I have three kids to think about and I can't keep putting them through this either. They need stability in their lives. I agree with you in the plan A theory. I think sometimes it does just give them a reason to continue with the affair. In my H case I really think that he thought I would be understanding again and let him carry on his second affair and still welcome him home with open arms. Now that I am divorcing him I think he feels trapped in his new relationship but I can't help that. I still love him and miss him but I can't plan A or B him anymore it's over. We still have a very friendly relationship I think the kids need that but I could never be married to him again. I think he is developing a lifestyle pattern and I just don't see it changing. I think MB is great but it just won't work for everyone.JIll

There are no one size fits all and no guarantees.If you have a spouse who made a big mistake, but is generally of good character, I think they may respond to Plan A more positively.If your spouse jerks you around in the relationship before the affair or has a character flaw or there are problems in your marriage, like drinking, that is a contributing factor in the affair, your chances of a successful Plan A without a repeat affair goes way down, I think.At least from reading here for almost two years, in general, it seems that way to me.

FHL, I also wonder if, the spouse is of good character, but continues on with the mistake, as the BS does Plan A, thus making the WS feel more guilt so that the WS feels they have transgressed so grievously that they cannot come back to the marriage. Many of us have heard "I don't deserve you"--the BS being put up on that pedestal. I, of course, jumped head first off the pedestal, which I had no business being on anyway...Am I arguing against my previous posts on this thread? Gee wouldn't be the first time. I have vantage points from too many views. Even within my own marriage it is not one size MB fits all situations. Earlier I was just trying to share what it feels like to have Plan A done to you when you aren't sure you want the marriage or can make it work. I believe Plan A works very well as a ground floor, but perhaps the WS response & what we choose to do after Plan A, and how quickly one moves to that choice is where our variety comes in?

First, will someone tell me how to put the quotes within your own posts! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

A lot of good stuff in this thread that I'd like to ditto, but, I'll just take a shot at it.Genie, I appreciate the hindsight vs. foresight. I, too, hope that someone can learn from what I have gone through. Also like the game clock analogy.Some of these "nuts" are harder to crack. But more importantly, I agree the plans are not "one size fits all" The affair forces us to deal w/the marriage, the spouse and ourselves in way, perhaps, we had not done before. Some BS are willing and able to help the betrayer through, others cannot or will not. But very good points are made throughout this thread re: self-protection/preservation vs. saving the marriage. Delicate balance, indeed.What is encouraging is that while we come out of it different, we are better as individuals. It even better if the spouse grows along w/us; unfortunately, that is not always the case.I regret some of my behavior during "recovery" But I also know that I did the best that I knew how to do. Now I know more. Like Oprah says, "when you know better, you do better!"God Bless everyone on this journey. Enlightened

Hey All,This is the thread that turned my whole outlook and attitude around. Granted we didn't reconcile but the wisdom and understanding changed my life!Thanks "Coach". <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010399.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010399.html</A>

Hey Genie29,When I spoke with Jennifer (Harley's) she stated that Plan A was not meant to be a long term effort. She said that some spouses can only maintain it for 3 weeks, now when she stated that she did clarify that the Part of Plan A she was referring to was where the BS is being kind and nice to the WS while the WS is openly having the A, she was not referring to the aspect of the BS working on themselves.So, as you, I had Plan A'd for several months (nearly a year) with the A right in my face, during that time I felt emotionally abused and my self esteem was at an all time low, probably in the red BIG TIME. I wish I would have known at that time that Plan Aing wasn't meant for long term, I think I might have cut my effort by 4 mos. It would have saved me massive grief.Love and Prayers Genie ... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jo

Genie,I don't think you sound bitter. I agree with you. I think your words are realistic. I believe Plan A works, but only if done for a reasonable amount of time, followed by Plan B, and if the WS is truly undecided, has strength to do what it takes to restore the marriage, and can be committed to recovery. Not all marriages are worth saving. Infidelity is a horrible wake up call to find out just what kind of person we married, what kind of people we are, and whether the marriage is worth saving. If you pledge love til death, I think you ought to do something to try to keep it together, but not at the expense of losing yourself.

I did plan A for 4 months when I did not know of my h's affair. Meanwhile, he had the time of his life with 2 women trying their best to win his dear little heart. As soon as I found the evidence and confronted them, ow ran like a scalded cat. I just wish I had been more assertive earlier. Perhaps the ea would've ended sooner, but I am sure that my self esteem would not have taken such a trouncing. Inadvertently, I ENABLED my h to emotionally abuse me. He was incapable of withdrawing from the addiction of his fantasy affair with Pretty Woman. His continued rejection of me resulted in my being left with quite a burden of hurt and resentment.I agree with your post, Genie whether or not it is considered resentful.