Hi to all,<P>I'm the BS, about 2 months past d-day. THis are progressing "Interestingly" but overall, better than I ever expected. (I expected murder, divorce, mayhem...)<P>My wife and I've talked occasionally about a vasectomy for me. I don't fancy condoms etc. Makes things a bit difficult for me. We have 2 kids now, and at this point (44 yrs old) I am determined not to have any new young'uns.<P>I've been thinking about having it done more lately. I'm thinking of bringing the subject up with my wife at the therapist's office this week, or maybe now now, not yet. One common thing I've read is not to decide to have it done under stress. However, as you will certainly expect, stress is what I'm swimming in right now.<P>Any suggestions? Any experiences? Any jokes?<P>Thanks in advance to all.<BR><P>------------------<BR>*************************<BR>Thronx - one of the statistics....<BR>*************************

Well, the only issue is, do YOU ever want to have any more kids?<P>If the answer is "no," then I'd say go for it. The procedure is quick and relatively painless. However, make ABSOLUTELY SURE you don't want any more kiddies! Think about it this way: If, heaven forbid, you and your W were to divorce, and you met someone new who wanted kiddies...?<P>That's what I may have to deal with soon...6 months after my "horses were corralled" my W announced she wanted a divorce!

My W's A was about 14 months after the big V. I had mine done really young because we had two healthy happy children and that was all th WE wanted. When WE may have been obsolete, it was one of the first things I thought about. Make sure you guys are committed to your M before you make an appointment.

thronx....<P>You can rid yourself of all the stress in the world...but when you lay back on that bed with your legs up in the stirrups and that doctor takes a blade to your privates, you will experience a new level of stress that will blow the "stress-gauge" off the wall! <P>But...all in all....I'm glad I got it done. It really wasn't that bad...and makes all the difference in the world...but I will warn you that within the 12 hours after having it done, you will worry that you will never 'get it up' again! <P>Go for it....it really is wonderful. You'll kick yourself for not having it done earlier.<p>[This message has been edited by lighthouse (edited October 31, 2000).]

Just a few thoughts on vasectomy...<BR>I do believe it is one of the greatest methods of birth control, but not wthout a few drawbacks. <BR>There are men that experience chronic pain and inflammation post vasectomy. Also, ranulomas can develop at the site where the vas is separated causing small bumps to develop in the scrotum-usually these do not cuase problems, but sometimes a revision needs to be done to remove the granuloma and surrounding tissue.<BR>Just wanted you to know there is a certain amt of risk involved in any procedure, and while rare, things happen.<BR>From the psych side....my h feels that having a vasectomy made it easier for him to screw around. worries abt unwanted pregnancies from the OWs. <P>

Thanks to all.<P>cjack - I, personally, don't want any more. At all. Nada. I have 2 great kids now, and I don't want to be doing diapers when I should be thinking about other stuff. The thing about the timing for you, that sort of thing seems to happen a bit too much recently. (Cat sickens and dies as does "old" marriage, a wart on my ring finger begins to disappear after d-day...)<P>HadBetterDays - if my marriage ever failed, I don't think I'd be up for someone who wanted kids.<P>lighthouse - yeah, I read a short piece in a New York Times Magazine a while back about this guy's own experience. Seemed ok except when he described the anaesthetic injection. Aaarrgg! <P>cl - thank you for the POV. Even though I am the BS, that's an interesting point. I can reverse it as well - I was thinking about my relief about not having to use b'control, but then again, what may my wife think about it? What meaning will it have for her? A lovebuster? Interesting. Anyway, no hurry. When it's right I'll raise the issue. (You bet in the therapist's office...)<P>Best to you all,<P><BR>------------------<BR>*************************<BR>Thronx - one of the statistics....<BR>*************************<p>[This message has been edited by Thronx (edited November 01, 2000).]

This may be a good idea, but not a good time. There is no reason to rush this decision. It is one of those "once it's done, it can't be undone" kind of things. So, no I wouldn't even dare bring it up now. Too tender a subject. Could seem like rejection even if it is something you've been thinking of for years.

Thanks and cheers, Popeye.<P>------------------<BR>*************************<BR>Thronx - one of the statistics....<BR>*************************

Hey...BEST THING I EVER DID!!! Everything still works, NOTHING changes except you just shoot blanks...I had mine done 15 years ago...no problems...no regrets. Just make sure it is the right time to do it for the BOTH of you.<P>Had some complications when I had it done...but that was my fault. If you do it LISTEN to the Dr. on what to do and NOT to do<p>[This message has been edited by dumone (edited November 01, 2000).]

Thronx,<BR>I had my v about 2 months after the divorce. I too am 44 and decided I did not to raise anymore kids as I have 2 already.<P>Post divorce I have dated 2 women, one was 31 and never had children. The subject never came up whether she wanted children or not. The second woman was 41 and has 2 children. The subject did come up that she did not wnat anymore. So I would have been prepared if things had worked out.<P>I may have to follow up on what CL said though as I seem to have some small lumps. They are are in located in the area where my leg joins my body and occaisonally tight clothes cause pressure there. This is really where I had the pain after the procedure. I switched from briefs to boxers and that helped a lot.

<BR>Vasectomies are known to cause chronic prostatitis. I haven't had a vasectomy, but I have chronic prostatitis. It is NOT a fun disease. <P>Bystander

Ok...<P>I will be the voice that cries out in the wilderness...<P><B>Don't do it!!!</B><P>You can call me hypocrital since I had it done to me about 6 years...<BR>...and this was the worst thing I have ever done...<BR>...I do blame the vasectomy as part of the demise of my marriage... and for my weakness, in giving into my W's request of me to do so.<P>I understand everyone's rationale...<BR>I understand also... for me... it was wrong!<P>It devalued med...<BR>It turned me into a "sex object"... (it's OK to laugh guys)...<BR>A toy to be used whenever... (no fear of pregnancy)...<BR>Less of a person/husband...<BR>...more of a "thing".<P>It removed who I was...<BR>The real me...<BR>...and... NO... this is not a "machismo thing"...<BR>...my security in my masculinity has never been in question...<BR>...until I got the vasectomy!<P>Who I was, was a whole man...<BR>...uncorrupted... as when I married my W.<P>Afterwords...<BR>...did my sex life increase... yep...<BR>...did my fulfillment increase... nope...<P>If anything, it made my W's appetite for the more <I>bizzare</I> increased... to the the point of moving to those Internet "talks" with the OM...<BR>..."talks"... about the OM's "freedom flannel"... and my W's "silk desires".<BR>...to the sites on domination... S&M... lesbian stories... <P>My W no longer thought of sexual intimacy as a gift to each other...<BR>...a precious gift...<BR>...it turned the act into one of pure selfishness.<P>And for me... that's what the sterilization... was all about!...<BR>Selfishness of "using the other spouse".<P>This is my perspective.<BR>Many... most... maybe all others disagree...<P>I only thank you for an opportunity to let me write about this subject...<BR>...which for me had been a clear disaster for my marriage.<P> <P>Jim

Thronx,<P>I guess it comes down to what you want out of life. I would talk to your wife about it. I know Tony's parents are raising accident kids and though I am sure they love them I am also sure they wish they never had them.<P>For me, I wish Tony would get one. I have no desire for children and the vasectomy is easier to get than to have my tubes tied. <P>Invesitage every aspect of it and then decide between the two of you. Explaine to your wife why you want it and both of you really talk about it.

I had suggested that my H have a vasectomy, but he was reluctant for a long time - then he suddenly visited a doctor to schedule one without mentioning it in advance. A year later his affair started. Was there a connection - I don't know. His OW is in her late 40's, so pregnancy probably wouldn't have been too likely anyway. I think it did affect his self-esteem. In any case, he just added it to the things he resented me for but never bothered to mention, along with my not having gone back to work yet by the time our sixth child was a toddler.

Jim...Jim...Jim...<P>Wow....what a story! I am not going to 'doubt' you here...andjust take this as a bit of "tongue and cheek"...but you almost sound like Al Gore ...blaming all of America's problems on the Republicans because they didn't act sooner to fix the hole in the ozone. <P>I mean...that really is stretching things a bit. Nothing personal, friend....but that is quite a load to put out here for someone wanting to get a simple procedure done. <P>

{lighthouse},<P>I'm not Al Gore... (or Al Gore-<I>like</I>)....<BR>...blame is on no one else but <B>me</B>!<P>...I suppose you feel... an abortion is another "simple procedure"...<P>The <B><I>load</I></B> is how you carry the consequences of your actions...<BR>...had I understood the consequences of <B>all</B> the actions in my marriage better...<BR>...my divorce could have been avoided.<P>Would I recommend this "simple procedure" to anyone (man or woman)... NO!<P>And yes... I honestly believe that you move from being a giver/taker to a user... by asking this of your spouse.<P> <P>Jim

Jiiiiimmmmmm......Pa-leeeeaaaassseeeeeee...<P>Hey...I have nothing against you...you seem like a nice guy...but now....you are suggesting that we put a vasectomy and abortion in the same category? My goodness...that is so absurd, that I won't even be offended by that. But I am just dumbfounded by your line of thinking here.<P>I know you are so helpful to people here...kind and considerate...and cheerful even in the midst of your own personal pain. And I am so sorry for all that you have gone through. But please...don't imply that because I and my wife chose to permantnly avoid pregnancy by me getting a vasectomy, that we would have as easily chosen abortion as well. We have three beautiful children. The oldest is in college. All three of them are actively serving the Lord and active in church.<P>They have been taught our values and abhor the thought of abortion. My wife and I would never in a million years consider it or even suggest it to anyone else. <P>So again...I am puzzled over your flippant remark that would lump the two together (vasectomy and abortion)<P>Since I have read many of your post,I will just assume that I am not understanding your line of thinking. I started out with just a bit of 'tongue and cheek' with you. But I must be missing something somewhere.<P>Blessings to you my friend. You have the gift of encouragement here. Please don't let me interfere with that.<P> Lighthouse...(and an infertile one at that)

wow. I'm with lighthouse, Jim!<P>The remark "And yes... I honestly believe that you move from being a giver/taker to a user... by asking this of your spouse" is particularly offensive to me as a woman. My response is this: Asking your wife to continue to be a baby factory is pretty "taker" sounding also.<P>There have been many cases of a man ruining his marriage by getting a vasectomy done against the will of his wife when she would like to have more kids - but this would have to be the first time I've heard of your angle.<P>Sorry, but it just doesn't sound quite ... "right" to me.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Yes...<P>Society says it's OK...<BR>...so it must be "right".... right????<P>The one post says...<BR>..."any jokes"... ...right???<P>Obviously, these are <B>my</B> beliefs...<BR>...and I don't to impose them on anyone, other than through explaining my experiences.<P>I don't find them at all at odds with the basic principles of respecting <B><I>all</I></B> life.<P>As I said today's society, isn't about respecting life...<BR>...abortion<BR>...RU486<BR>...physician assisted suicide<BR>...euthanasia<BR>...<B>just do whatever to take the struggle out of life</B>!<P>...let's only have one child... ...or none...<BR>......everyone says the world is being over populated!<BR>......it will be financially easier<BR>......we can spread more love on just one child<BR>......we live life a bit easier with just one child<BR>......being a TINC is what you want you should be<P>I went to Hungary this summer for a vacation with my kids...<BR>...the birth rate is negative... (direction for all <I>civilized</I> countries)<BR>...and the population is dropping like a rock<BR>...in the next 100 years... the population could drop 40% or more.<BR>...and yes... materialism is a major cause.<P>--------------------------------------------<P>I believe that when I got married...<BR>...part of the reason was... to have children...<BR>...to be co-creators (no not a power trip... ...but a humble participant in a special gift) with God.<P>"Baby factory"...<BR>...I don't think so...<BR>...I'm not talking about keeping my W "barefoot and pregnant" the rest of her life...<BR>...a true gift has no "imprisonment" behind it.<P>I believe that my gift of virginity to my W actually meant something...<BR>...it didn't<BR>...just bearly a "sweet thing" as she wrote about it to her "Internet friends".<BR>It wasn't a gift at all.<BR>Knowing there was no chance I had any STDs meant nothing to her...<BR>...that I was to be her's alone... likewise meant nothing.<P>To me...<BR>the intimacy of marriage...<BR>the gift to each other...<BR>...means much more than a comfortable lifestyle... simply because 2 can live at the cost of 1.6<P>Being unselfish is more than just buying Christmas/Birthday gifts for the spouse...<BR>Going on vacations without the kids...<BR>A "date-night"...<P>It means turning self-ish wants aside...<BR>...for the other.<P>--------------------------------------------<P>I know most will find these ideas anachronistic...<BR>...ideas of a bygone era... <P>Will I ever find another woman who agrees with my ideas/beliefs?...<BR>...it may be a sad fact of today's societal influences...<BR>...I may not.<P>And so I dedicate my life to my kids, my family and my church...<BR>...and oh yeah... to be around here a while longer too. <P> <P>Jim

wow

Ok...Jim...<P>I hear where you are coming from. I know there are many people who take a strong stand against any kind of 'birth control'. <P>So can I assume that you are against ALL types of birth control? Including the rythym (can't even spell that one ) method?<P>If you are going to use the argument that sex between married couples was strictly for the sole purpose of procreation, then I'll give you that. No attempt to interfere with nature should be tolerated. But don't stop there...if God intended for hair to grow on your face, then to shave it would be interfereing with God's design. Or even cutting your hair for that matter.<P>And I'm sure you would not tolerate any type of medicine for your kids when they get sick or take cold...seing how God/or nature must have intended for them to have the sickness. And I don't read in the bible where it says 'if there is any sick among you, reach for some asprin or advil"....it reads: "call for the elders of the church and have prayer".<P>I mean, Jim...come on...where do you draw that line?<P>I can certainly respect your own PERSONAL conviction...that for you and your wife, birth control is out of the question. I know a number of people who take that stand. But you can't support that with scripture.<P>But I am still waiting for your clarification on assuming that I put a vasectomy and an abortion in the same category. You owe me that one!<P>Keep smiling...nothing like 'healthy discussion' to make the day go by faster!

lighthouse,<P>*just as a side note* <P>Thank you for expressing the terror in the 'stirups' you mentioned in your first post.<P>As a woman, it is nice to know that a man can see the trauma involved there, as we deal with it quite often. <P>sorry, back to the discussion...<P>-dawnn<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Dawnn (edited November 02, 2000).]

While I don't quite agree with NSR's equating a vasectomy and an abortion, I do think I see where he's coming from, and I do agree that a vasectomy is more than just a "simple procedure."<P>I think he's saying that in order to respect "life", and to respect the place of sex in the creation of life, you must always make a choice in favor of life, or at least the possibility of life, when that choice is presented to you. So that means you must choose not to have an abortion, don't approve of euthanasia, AND that you shouldn't get a vasectomy, which would completely divorce sex from its possibility to create life.<P>I'd have to assume that if one followed this position strictly, you'd be against any method that would tend to divorce sex from its creative possibilities -- including condoms (which I'm surprised more guys here havn't mentioned -- why are you all so eager to go in and get things snipped when a handy piece of latex'll do the job?), rhythm method, etc. Essentially, your ATTITUDE has to be one of openness to the possibility of life.<P>I'm not sure, NSR, how you think that this doesn't mean you'd turn your wife into a baby factory, or how you square your statement that you don't want to keep your wife "barefoot and pregnant" her whole life with your refusal to accept control over your reproductive processes. Simple biology, I would think; the function of sex is to produce children, and if you have it often enough with zero precautions or forethought, you're going to keep having children until your wife reaches menopause.<P>Obviously, NSR's position derives from his faith, and his comments about vasectomies stir both from his general pro-life views and from his own belief that his wife's A stems from their decision to undergo the procedure. And maybe it does, I don't really know.<P>But just because his statements stemmed from his personal religious beliefs and/or experiences doesn't mean they can be discounted. I'm not a religious man at all, neither my W nor I really want kids, and we use the foam/condom method (as effective as the pill, guys, you should give it a go). But I'd hesitate before describing a vasectomy as a "simple procedure" that you should get as easily as you would remove a mole. Producing children with your makeup, whether you're religious or not, is something very special that only you can do. It IS a gift, in some sense, and you should approach the decision to permanently cast the gift aside with caution, deliberation, and respect.<P>As for your general question, Thronx, I'd wait on the vasectomy thing. You're two months past d-day. If you've learned anything reading these boards, you know that life has a way of progressing, as you put it, "interestingly" and in not always forseen ways after an A. One of you clearly wasn't fully committed to the marriage a short time ago, and that kind of thing doesn't heal overnight. You don't want to wake up having altered yourself on the basis of certain assumptions that turn out not to be true.<P>Condom-free sex, though, is a powerful lure . . . lol. God, I miss it sometimes.<P>Take care.

{lighthouse},<P>Nope... you can't assume I'm against <B>ALL</B> "forms" of <I>family planning</I>!<P>Check out <A HREF="http://www.cin.org/nfp.html" TARGET=_blank>Natural Family Planning</A>... and the related links...<BR>...and yes my W is Catholic too...<BR>...or so she claims(claimed).<P>and yes... ...it reads: "call for the elders of the church and have prayer".<P>The above and following mentioned site are just <I>where it's at</I>! <P>If you're into the real essence of my arguments... check out... <A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html" TARGET=_blank>HUMANAE VITAE</A><P>--------------------------------------------<P><B>No</B> sex was NOT "...strictly for the sole purpose of procreation..."<BR>I hoped my statements didn't lead you to believe that...<P>...<B>one</B> of the purposes of <I>marriage</I> is for procreation... but the marital act itself is to be a wholely selfless gift to your spouse...<BR>...open to procreation... yes...<BR>...but <B>very</B> importantly... a gift!<P>Your arguments of hair/medicine aren't in the same realm as are issues of artificial contraception or abortion...<BR>...no need to comment.<P>Scripture is just one source...<BR>If you know me... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura, although I don't exclude it, by any means! See my post... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000288.html" TARGET=_blank>MB Concepts in Christian Scripture</A>.<P>Do check out <A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html" TARGET=_blank>HUMANAE VITAE</A> for the link between a vasectomy and an abortion...<BR>...I wish my W and I had read it earlier.<P> <P>Jim

Thronx,<P>I had the procedure done after my second child. No complications, just a little tender for 3 or 4 days. The urologist I used was a pioneer in developing a reversible vasectomy procedure. According to his literature this type of vasectomy can be reversed up to 10 years later with a high probability of success. If you do decide to go forward with the procedure you might look into this possibility.<P>Humorous stories…. Absolutely. My Urologist name is Dr. Alden Cockburn. With a name like that you've gotta be good. He is from somewhere in the Caribbean and speaks with a Bahamian accent. This guy has been on Letterman, Carson, and Leno to name a few and really has a ball (so to speak) with his strange fame. Every year for Fathers Day he hooks up with a local radio station to give away a free vasectomy to whoever can convince him that they need it the most. Normally the winners claim to be the fathers of 8 or more illegitimate children. <P>He even made the procedure entertaining. Once the IV was in and the Valium was flowing, he put me in the stirrups and started telling really stupid jokes. After a while when I didn’t respond to his jokes he positioned a mirror so I could see what was going on and asked me "what do you see in this hand?". I replied "a scalpel" Then he said do you see what I'm holding in this hand (me). I said "yep" He then asked, "Am I the funniest urologist that I'd ever met?". Once again "yep" He then blurted out "Then laugh at my jokes, makes me nervous when folks don't and my hands start shaking" Whole thing made the experience as pleasant as it could be. Think I'm kidding, here's a link to the local news where they quoted him <A HREF="http://www.wfla.com/indepth/11.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.wfla.com/indepth/11.htm</A> under section "Pill #1: Saw Palmetto" <P>Hey Lighthouse & NSR. Normally I look forward to reading the wisdom and the understanding in your posts but the jousting your doing for purely personal views is real out of character. Is it OK to agree to disagree and give the thread back to Thronx? <BR>

When I had mine done, there was an attractive nurse(female) and a young female intern along for the ride. I have to admit that was the first time I was ever half naked and with not one but two woman and wasn't aroused. Of course the guy standing there with a blade probably had a lot to do with that!

I had it done years ago after my son was born and I really didn't want any more kids. <BR>It doesn't take that long and I have had no problems to speak of.<P>Good luck

Jim, I hear you. And, I just want to let you know, there are other women out there who believe in the same things you do. I'm not Catholic, and I don't really have a problem with birth control. I honestly can't say that a lot of people who are parents should be parents. Let's take my H for example. He doesn't want children. Yes, I think this is very selfish and I think it is related a lot to materialism. Do I think he would be a great father. Absolutely--provided he obtained some sort of desire to have children. But, if I were to get pregnant now, he would hate me and hate any children we might have. I wouldn't burden a child with that for anything.<P>That all being said. I, too, waited for marriage. It was very special knowing that my H and I did sexual things with each other and only each other. It was truly a gift from my H. I loved not having to worry about STDs. I do believe part of marriage is having children and raising a family. So, you see, there are women out there who believe that. I'm sorry your wife doesn't, but have faith, that your W doesn't represent everyone. I am sure that there are women out there whose H's had vasectomies, that did not move right into feeling that their H's were objects to be used. In fact, I would think that having a vasectomy or tubiligation would be more of a permit for that person to become a BS because they would reduce their chance of getting pregnant. I'm not sure I see how your vasectomy prompted your W's A.

I had a scalpeless vasectomy almost 10 years ago. My wife had back problems and a back surgery and wasn't supossed to have any more kids. It seemed to be the best option. we had 2 kids d & s and felt It safest way.<BR>I was sore for a day after surgery and could have gone back to work. Have been happy with results only 2 tiny "holes" made, very hard to find(wife and I did look for them years later) I would say the most uncomfortable part is the hair growing back.<BR>I don't feel I lost my manhood I did something to protect my wife from the effects another pregnancy would have on her back.

Folks, and NSR: I certainly have no problem with the beliefs of others when it comes to procreation. But that wasn't the issue that either lighthouse or I were commenting on. It was NSR's drawing of a direct connection between his consenting to have a vasectomy with the failure of his marriage. I'm sorry, but I think that is reaching a little bit. If it has anything to do with it, it isn't the vasectomy per se that did it, but the insensitivity of his wife and, perhaps, the resentment that going along with her wishes created in him. Those are relationship dynamics, and would have occurred somewhere along the way regardless of whether or not a vasectomy had entered the picture.<P>People here and elsewhere have regularly beaten me about the head and shoulders with the idea that, while I personally may have contributed to the sad condition of my marriage, ONLY my husband made his selfish choice to have an affair. Same with your wife, NSR - a vasectomy only saw to it that you didn't have any more small children who would need to be destroyed by the insensitivity and selfishness of her decision. Perhaps this was God's way of protecting you and NOT allowing this hurt to be shared by any more defenseless children!<P>That said, I feel I must commend Thronx and the rest of the men who have come forward to talk about vasectomy: It is far less invasive a procedure for a man than for a woman to have her tubes tied, and is less often found to reverse itself (My cousin had a surprise pregnancy after her tubes were tied), but so often in a relationship it seems that it is the woman who must take responsibility for birth control. It also is not a topic that seems easy to discuss, either, so I am very happy to see it being discussed.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>