I updated my situation a few days ago ("End of the Rollercoaster Ride"), but here's some new info, along with a question.<P>I've decided I don't want to be married to my W anymore. She's moving ahead with the divorce papers, and I'm okay with that. She let me down one last time this past week, by seeing the OM after she agreed to "no contact." She's given up on the marriage, and now so have I. No more funds in the Love Bank...account closed!<P>Last night, I went out with my divorced guy friends...kind of a "He-Man Woman-Haters Club" thing. I've been out with them a lot in the past few months, and had plenty of opportunities to stray from my vows. I always held back in the past. Partly because I promised myself I wouldn't betray my marriage vows, and partly because I thought there was still a chance to save my relationship with W. Well, last night things changed.<P>I met someone that caught my eye last night, and I didn't hold back! <P>She's the same age, divorced, hasn't been out on the "scene" for awhile, and is a dead ringer for Cheri Oteri from "Saturday Night Live." We danced most of the night, talked a lot, and yes, I kissed her...often! We didn't do anything else, but I got her phone number and told her I'd call her.<P>Now, I know that I'm on the rebound like its nobody's business. I know she's just the first thing that came along (who also thinks I'm sexy), and I know that it will probably just last maybe a few dates and that's it. She knows my situation, and I think she wants the same thing I do: someone to go out and have fun with. I'm inclined to call and ask her out.<P>So, am I cheating? My divorce will be final sometime in January. I don't love my wife anymore, and I'm so sick of going to movies alone, or sitting at home on Saturday night, watching tv...why not start the rest of my life now? <P>Any thoughts would be appreciated!<P>p.s. Update on OM. STBX called this morning to get some financial info for our papers. She mentioned that she needed me to watch D in a couple of weeks, as she was going to Vegas to see her friend. I said "you mean OM?" She said no, her friend (the female friend who helped her find OM in the first place). Then she said something strange: "I don't know if you care, but that thing (with OM) looks like its pretty much over. I don't know what his deal is, but we're done." Hey, wasn't this guy your "soul-mate" just a few months ago???

oh well i'm going to say something that many may not agree with but no i don't consider it cheating<BR>the only down-side is bringing someone into a relationship with you if there's a lot of baggage to deal with - i don't think it comes down to 'do i wait for January' but 'am i ready to casually date?'<BR>just make sure you don't involve someone else in the mess

cjack - cheating? IMHO, technically , yes; morally, NO!<P>Go have some fun.<P>WAT

Hey CJack!<P>I don't have any good advice to give you because as you may know ... I'm in the same boat ... seeing an OP.<P>I can share my feelings of what I've experienced tho ... when I'm with him my mind is only in the moment and I'm soooo damn happy ... I feel better than human ... I feel so sexy and desired I could explode ... but once he's left and I'm alone I have twinges of guilt ... maybe it's my strict Catholic up bringing .... knowing that I'm not yet divorced and I still have a degree of love left for my H. <P>I've gotten a lot of good advice regarding dating while still married from friends here at MB ... and I know everyone's story is different, but I do believe that you and I and any others in our situation have to at least acknowledge what the experts (MB Books, Counselors, Pastors etc.) tell us ... and that is we are not yet emotionally whole and haven't healed our wounds from what we've gone thru, and theses wounds may very well cause a new relationship to faulter.<P>CJack, you know I would love to see you be happy and spend time with someone who cherishes you and see's how special you are ... I'm just trying to say that preparing yourself for some unexpected emotional rollercoasting in this new relationship should be expected. You see ... I have two rollercoasters now, one with H and one with OM. And at times my rollercoasterc events with my H sets off the rollercoaster with my OM. Jeeeez!<P>Good luck, have fun, and God Bless.<P>Love,<BR>Jo

Thanks to all for the words of support. Especially Jo...it's nice to know I'm not alone in my situation.<P>Let me point out one thing, though. I have no intention whatsoever of having a "relationship" with this woman or any other for a long time. My heart has been completely broken, and I won't even give a piece of it to anyone until I've put it back together and polished it up a bit. This whole experience has left me rather bitter and cynical. I just want to date, have fun, and not worry about committment, relationships, or deep emotions for awhile.<P>I've stepped of the rollercoaster, and it made me sick to my stomach. I think I'll just ride on the teacups for awhile!<p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited November 30, 2000).]

cjack:<P>Yes, I'd say you were "cheating". Technically and morally. Your cheating hasn't really led to anything serious yet, but it has the potential. So just as I'd warn someone who's starting down the road to an affair, I'd tell you not to pursue this woman.<P>As Jo points out, you're really not "ready" for dating yet. No matter how great it feels, rebound relationships often fail miserably and lengthen the time it takes to recover properly from a divorce. Although you're not planning on making this a serious relationship, you are WAY TOO emotionally vulnerable and needy; you have a high potential to do exactly that---no matter how intellectually strong you may be. You're playing with fire here: if I starved my 10 year old for a few days and then put him in a room full of cookies---do you think they'd get eaten, even if he "knew better"? What if I told him that he could nibble on one, but that was it?<P>You get the point.<P>I'd suggest that for now you try to keep your dating confined to groups, and not even suggest that you try solo dating for at least 6 months AFTER your divorce is final. Otherwise, you're liable to end up in another "bad" situation that's partly of your making.

Ok...as the only person on these boards (and I do feel a bit superior about that...LOL) that has actually SEEN Jack, let me tell you, he is adorable!<P>Maybe I should hold back a bit on my personal feelings here, but as you guys may know that I'm a bit raw right now. <P>---------------GO FOR IT-------------!!!!!!!<P>Just watch your hearts. Don't hurt and don't be hurt. You and your significant otheres may be on the same page at the beginning of a relationship, but, as we know all too well here, people change. Don't promise anything you can't give...i.e. your hearts.<P>Jack, you have been hurt deeply, but you are a solid kinda guy. Make sure that she knows exactly where you are in your life. Women (and I mean no disrespect) tend to say and do whatever they need to, in order to get a guy interested. Yep, all of a sudden, deer hunting will be the most amazing thing in the world.<P>Please go slow...there are a lot of vulnerable women out there.<P>allison

Well, I suppose until the Divorce is final you are cheating. It may be safer to wait until the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed before you engaged in anything - just to be safe! On the other hand, you sound like you've been through it all and have tried your hardest, so I can't blame you! Don't get hurt!

I don't agree that there is some special or significant timeline to 'wait' to date - each person has to make their own choices. <P>My counselor told me to wait a year after my divorce was final - that would be 2 1/2 - 3 years AFTER discovery....I am almost 40 and have no intention of putting my life on hold for that long - I still would like to have children. My husband dropped the ball and made his choices - why should I punish myself.<P>As I saw it - my marriage died the day of discovery - it was just the last straw in a series of problems over an 18 year relationship. It has been one year since D-day - after 10 months of counseling - we have both decided it is over. <P>I just happen to meet someone, by chance, (although - I don't really believe in chance - I believe God brings people into our lives for a purpose) We are both cautious, but I feel like Jo - he is special, and I feel special when I am with him, and we just clicked.... <P>Should I allow this special person to pass by because a counselor suggest an arbitrary timeline for hurt, grief and recovery? I one of those people who doesn't let the grass grow underneath me and I know when to move forward. <P>I know cjack says it is just a few date thing - and as long as he is honest with this other person - doesn't lead her on thinking more is possible - I see no harm in a few dates if he thinks he is ready - it is ultimately his choice and decision. <P>cjack - you know you best - follow your heart and your conscious.<P>just my opinion. J

Thanks for more timely replies! I called and left her a message, so I think I'm leaning towards seeing her. We'll see what I say when she calls back...<P>K: Yes, I think I'm cheating, if I view my vows in their strictest sense. Yet I feel as if I'm playing a game where the deck is stacked against me, and I've already lost, so what's wrong with playing the ace I have up my sleeve? I know that's not the right attitude to take, but even I have grown tired of my own admittedly strict interpretation of marriage vows. As for my emotional strength; my heart is pretty well hardened at this point. I've always let my intellect lead my emotions, except in the case of my STBX. I followed my heart with her, and I'm not likely to make that mistake anytime soon. My therapist was amazed by my ability to look at my situation objectively. That is what I'm doing here. It's like I'm watching myself. There's a coldness that was never there before. Everytime I would go on a date in the past, or pick up someone at the bar, there would be an excitement; an elation; the thrill of a new thing. There was nothing last night, except for a kind of cold satisfaction that I still "had it" when it comes to the singles scene.<P>You're "cookie" analogy is an interesting one, though. I'll remind you that I've been out with the guys quite a lot in these months since the A started. I've had plenty of "cookies" offered to me. This time, I took a bite...just one bite.<P>Allison: How are you? Can't wait until January, even if I'll be the only guy in a room of tearful women! <P>She knows where I am in my life, and I will make that even more clear, if the opportunity to see her again arises. I suspect (from talking to her sister earlier today), that she's about in the same place emotionally that I am: just coming out of the dark...looking around to see what's going on. As to the "importance of deer hunting," the only thing that worries me is that she's a big fan of the radio station. So maybe she's really just attracted to the guy on the radio, and not the real me.<P>Alberta: Thanks for warning me about something I hadn't considered too much! What will STBX do when she finds out she's not the only one dating other people??? She's always been a jealous one, I just wonder if she realizes she's given up her right to be jealous!

May I add a question to Jacks question???<P>To those of you who are dating (do we need a new board here?) is your strongest urge to call or see this new person when you're feeling particularly hurt? I too, want to do things for the right reasons...I don't want to drag an innocent bystander into my mess of a life...but I do have sort of an offer. <P>It feels almost like vengence to me (sound familiar Jack?) to get involved...or even to consider it. Will we really be "showing them?" (our ws) or will be be purposely hurting another person because we are so damaged?<P>I think too much.<P>allison

Let me be the first to respond!<P>I don't see this as any sort of revenge or hiding place when I've been hurt. I would never have even considered dating, but finally, the reality of my divorce set in. There is really no other outcome at this time. I'm going to be divorced, and that's it...end of story. I know I've said that before, but this time its ME who wants out.<P>So in a way, my priorities have changed. Until this last straw (STBX bringing the OM to meet her mom, and breaking the No Contact rule), my first priority was saving my marriage. Now that I see the flat line on the monitor, I realize it's time to clean up the operating room and get ready for the next patient.<P>I haven't heard the latest from you, Allison, but I'd advise against taking that offer until you're 100 percent certain of YOUR feelings. Do you still love your H...even a little bit? Then don't.<P>I came to the realization that I just don't love my STBX anymore. So its time to move on.<P>By the way, I talked to the new woman on the phone for a while today. Turns out we do have a few things in common. Born only a month apart, married just over 3 years, both marriages ended due to infidelity, she likes bowling...

Allison, <P>I weighed that alot...I did not want to do that or be involved in a vengeful thing - I am a very spiritual person and have look for guidance throught every decision I have made. <BR>though I was tempted at first to have a revenge affair - I resisted - this relationship is not that at all - I am certain.<P>J

Ok, I'm still thinking too much here...<P>Didn't you want to walk away being the one that was above turning to another person. This is one thing that stops me. Please understand that I don't think there is anything wrong with the decisions you guys are making, I think you're very brave, but sometimes for me...I'd like to be able to say that I did it! I didn't need another person to make me feel better...I suppose in a sick kind of way I want to feel like the "good one"..yuck.<P>Man, this moving on thing is almost as confusing as the affair thing. I have not even looked (really!) at another man for years. I was so very attracted to my H that the whole idea is so foreign to me. <P>I guess that I'm not to the point that I can say I don't love my H. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference...remember that quote? And I certainly do not feel indifferent yet. Hate...sometimes.<P>Jack, I think she sounds wonderful...I think you two should go rent goofy shoes and bowl till your hearts content. I think she may think it's pretty great that you're a DJ, and it is...so that's a good thing.<P>Jeez I hope Dr. Harley and NSR don't read this, they'll kick me out of here for good.<P>allison

cjack,<BR> I'm with K it IS Technically and morally cheating!! In the LONG run this will hurt YOU... WAIT, hear me out with an OPEN mind....<BR> You can't hold your W to certain "Moral" standards and not yourself. Either you walk the walk and talk the talk or you don't.<P> I've been divorced for only 4 months and I'll tell ya, I was DAM proud that when I walked out of the courtroom, I walked out having NEVER been with another woman other than my W in 15 years!! Still haven't. I also glad I didn't set that example for my children. I may have broken MOST of the other vows through stupidity (Love, HONOR and CHERISH) but I did forsake ALL others. Even when W was living with OM. I was LONELY, HURT and needed SOOOO bad to have someone WANT me!! BUT, I KNEW in the LONG run I would have been disappointed in myself.<P><BR> Don't you see? This is the SAME thing your W was probably feeling that made this affair possible!!! I'm not saying it was your fault or that you/we DESERVED it in ANYWAY. But, hey that's why EVERYONE cheats!! <P><BR> Don't be like everyone else and stand strong on your values. The fact that you're here at ALL tells me you're SPECIAL. Don't listen to the people who tell you to give them up. ESPECIALLY your divorced friends (or STBD) here at MB or in a bar of ALL places (who's thinks totally clear half in the wrapper anyway?) . Misery loves company. Just because they couldn't pull their marriages out of the "fire" doesn't mean YOU can't!! I bet NONE of them even HEARD of MB and haven't put forth half the effort you have. You'll feel better about yourself in the end.<BR> Also, you seem like a very intelligent guy. How did you miss that OBVIOUS fishing expedition your W went on telling you it was over with OM? I think you missed her "Reaching" out to see if there was anything there with YOU. WHY ELSE WOULD SHE TELL YOU of all people?????? <BR> You said " I don't love my Wife anymore"<BR> I think you're kidding yourself on that one. And, either you do or you never did. Isn't THAT what we try and convince our WS?<BR> Don't be fooled and get in a fog like your W did. This may be the time you've been praying for and you'll be at the movies with the OW!!<BR> Like they say, "Don't give up on God fifteen minutes before the MIRACLE happens!!!<BR> GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjack:<BR><B>Yes, I think I'm cheating, if I view my vows in their strictest sense. Yet I feel as if I'm playing a game where the deck is stacked against me, and I've already lost, so what's wrong with playing the ace I have up my sleeve? I know that's not the right attitude to take, but even I have grown tired of my own admittedly strict interpretation of marriage vows. As for my emotional strength; my heart is pretty well hardened at this point.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A few months ago you were looking for an explanation for why someone (your wife, specifically) would cheat. I think you've summed it up pretty well yourself.<P>The shoe looks different on the other foot, doesn't it?<P>

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold y'er horses! I understand your feelings. I can empathize with your realization that this is probably a rebound thing and you are going into it with your eyes open, but I don't think any of that is reason to go buck wild. If your divorce is going to be final in a few weeks, why not wait until then? A whole lot can change in that time, and if it doesn't, well you will have your integrity and the woman you met will still be just as single and just as cute, but you will likely be more levelheaded about calling her.<P>Although you said your account is closed, there seems to be some room for more deposits because you mentioned that the W said the affair was over. If this was something that did not matter to you, would you have mentioned it at all?<P>Anyway, there aren't many people here who are kicking themselves because they waited too long to pursue someone. There are lots here to are kicking themselves because they didn't wait at all. I'd err in the direction of being conservative.<P>And won't those holidays get sticky when there is a new person around? What do you do with that? Yuck. It's already complicated and yucky. Is a temporary fling worth that? It seems to me to be more mess than it is worth- and she has baggage too? Yuck again.<P>And it is cheating, you know. No matter how you justify it, it's still cheating.<p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited December 01, 2000).]

Cjack,<BR> I would just like to add my two cents here.I am with Frank all the way with this one!!<BR> Seems like she is reaching out you." I dont know if you care, but it is all over with OM".Now is your time to concentrate on wife,not OW.<BR> Love and Prayers,Beth

Allison,<BR>You said: <<To those of you who are dating (do we need a new board here?)>><P>I'm gonna be harsh. UGH! PHEW! SPIT SPIT GACK HURL<P>I've been there, done that as a BS getting into an outside relationship, regret it more than I can tell you, now that H & I are reconciled!!!!!!! We now both have WS & BS issues and half the time my brain is like a 4 person ping pong tournament as I love my H, remember the OM, hate H's OW.<P>In my JSHO any married spouse dating someone else is certainly a topic for discussion on this board, that's what this whole infidelity forum is about, but seeking out OP is not compatible with MARRIAGE BUILDERS and I *shudder* to think what a forum devoted to the topic would be like. <P>Of course, last year, I would have been all..."oh, my needs have gone unmet for 2 years and I DESERVE this OM. Look what my H has done to me." But it really screwed up what I had worked so hard for with Plan A...just at the point that my H finally "got it" and wanted me, our marriage and family.<P>You know, hindsight is so wonderful. You daters, just try to imagine what you would feel like, falling for this new person...and your spouse wants you back... I didn't think I loved my spouse. I thought my lovebank was an empty abyss. I love him as much today as I did when I began Plan A--over 2 1/2 long years ago, and expect it is getting better as we work through all the crap we've put each other through.<P>I'm not usually so crabby on this subject, but I just heard from the OM & then took the step of honesty to tell my H. NO FUN!!!!!!!!!!<P>Y'think my story is a fluke? I don't.

And I'll second what Lor says! <P>I've seen a lot of the following type of argument:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You've hung in so long as the faithful spouse---and you've done such a good job. The divorce isn't final yet, but you REALLY deserve YOUR OWN HAPPINESS... so go for it. Only YOU know what's best for YOU.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I cringe when I see this crap. It's meant to be "supportive", but the only thing it supports is a bad decision. The reasons:<P>1. It's not over until it's over. Divorce is final. But then...<P>2. It may not even be over then. Most affairs die within 2 years after being "outed". If you're faithful to your marriage, you should be trying to keep that 2 year time frame in mind, and protect YOUR love for YOUR spouse (ex or not) by whatever means necessary (Plan A, Plan B).<P>3. You need to heal from the loss of your spouse. You need to let that love for your ex-spouse really and truly die, so that when you start a new relationship with someone else---if your spouse comes back, you can honestly deal with the situation with no remorse or reservations.<P>And for everyone who thinks "they know better" than these counselors who set arbitrary time lines---you don't. The situation Lor describes, and ones similar to it, happen ALL THE TIME. These guidelines are in place to help emotionally vulnerable people make the right decisions on the way to future "happy and healthy" relationships. Give yourself time to heal!

Like some have said - everyone comes from a different situation, each person is different.<P>My marriage has been hurting for about ten years - actually more now - I have absolutely no desire to regain my marriage as it was - my husband has said flat out - he will never change and that my hopes and dreams are not what he wants - so I have decided to move forward with my life - each case is different.<P>I have good memories, but really not very many from the 10 years. <P>J

That's awfully harse K when you don't know every situation. <P>I don't wish to debate with you, but my marriage was very emotionally abusive - according to your comments - I should stay just because he MIGHT some day want reconcilliation or I might change my mind and fall in love with him again? I am mature enough to know my own mind and heart - thank you - and I am done - I have no desire to return to such an emotionally draining and painful existance. The love for my spouse died a long time ago - this last episode was simply the last straw. You ask if we did reconcile, by some miracle, could I live with what I am doing - and the answer is yes. The only thing we do have between us right now is the marriage certificate. We are still friends - I don't hate him, I just don't want to be married to him any more.<P>My husband is the WS - he does not want to improve his habits, honor our vows, he believes he has a right to a private life and his girlfriends and has said as much in counseling, and I have known this about him for years - believes friends can sleep together and it's perfectly normal and ok. Even our counselors - and we use a very excellent team - have told me - he will not change - he has no remorse, no understanding of what he has done or is doing to me/us and he has no desire to work out a healthy,commited union. They have actually almost reached the end of their rope with him as he is so 'dead' emotionally. He does not comprehend what committement is or understand that lies and secrets are bad for a marriage - he thinks they are a good thing. But - being who they are - they persevere in hopes he will 'wake up' at some point. <P>My H is very controlling and I will never allow him that control over my life again. Reconcilliation is not an option for us as I have changed and he wants me the way I was - where he can control me - never again.<P>You really shouldn't generalize so much and lump everyone into the same situation. Each marraige has it's own dynamics - some succeed and some don't. You can't force someone to love you because you want it....and abuse is abuse and unhealthy no matter how it is inflicted - so please don't generalize and presume those that don't agree with you are ignorant, nieve, or incompetant.<P>Sorry if I was harsh in any way - I follow your posts, but if people post something other then 'save the marriage at all costs' oriented - you tend to be judgemental.<P>J<P>I congradulate those who has found there way back, if that is what they truly want, but i have no desire to return to my situation - it was unhealthy.

CJack,<P>When I started to see this OM I too was certain I did NOT want to get involved ... I wanted only recreational companionship - fun ... I felt I had been in a cave and hybernating for 1.5 yrs and just wanted to get out and join the world again ... I only wanted a friend ... a male friend.<P>Well, things started out that way ... we spent lots of time getting to know each other ... emails and talking every day for months ... then at a certain point we started to become intimate ... it was like a run away train ... once we were intimate our feelings (at least mine) were totally out of control ... I was smitten ... I was so into him and knowing him, that's all I could think about ... aftr 20 years with the same person, getting to know someone else is so facinating ... the more I knew the more I cared. And then there is the way he treats me, being complimented and paid attention to and have someone listen to every word I said, simply overwhelming. My Love Bank had major deposits and I thought I had closed the acct.<P>Do you get my picture, CJack? I just want you to see how easy it is to get involved, even tho we (you and I) have made up our minds not to. I see why they say we shouldn't, our intentions are good but we under estimate how needy and vunerable we are. Just be aware, okay Hon?<P>Love,<BR>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PLEASE HELP:<BR><B>cjack,<BR> <BR> Don't be like everyone else and stand strong on your values. The fact that you're here at ALL tells me you're SPECIAL. Don't listen to the people who tell you to give them up. ESPECIALLY your divorced friends (or STBD) here at MB or in a bar of ALL places (who's thinks totally clear half in the wrapper anyway?) . Misery loves company. Just because they couldn't pull their marriages out of the "fire" doesn't mean YOU can't!! I bet NONE of them even HEARD of MB and haven't put forth half the effort you have. You'll feel better about yourself in the end.<BR> Also, you seem like a very intelligent guy. How did you miss that OBVIOUS fishing expedition your W went on telling you it was over with OM? I think you missed her "Reaching" out to see if there was anything there with YOU. WHY ELSE WOULD SHE TELL YOU of all people?????? <BR> You said " I don't love my Wife anymore"<BR> I think you're kidding yourself on that one. And, either you do or you never did. Isn't THAT what we try and convince our WS?<BR> FRANK</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you've certainly given me a few things to think about! Thanks Frank (and the others who agreed with Frank) for the thoughts. Now I'm more confused!<P>Really, though, I HAVE given up on the marriage. I feel kind of ashamed to say that, since there are people here who have dealt with far worse than I have, but everybody has their breaking point, and I've reached mine. There's a line from a Patty Loveless song that sums it up:<P>"He said you don't even know who I am,<BR>You left me a long time ago,<BR>You don't even know who I am...<BR>So what do you care if I go..."<P>I've ignored those people who told me to give up. I've shrugged off the people who told me she was lying to me. I didn't listen to the people who said she was using me. I fought, and fought, and fought, and for what? She has let me down at every chance I've given her. <P>The divorce will most certainly happen. She filed the request for the hearing today. That's okay with me. Even the Harleys will tell you some marriages can't be saved. I have fought off that notion will all my might. I'd tell myself "no, not me...I'm an MBer! I'll get her back one way or another! She'll never divorce me because I just love her too much!" I just feel like I've been in denial for the past year. And I feel like I've let everyone here down by giving up...doubly so by looking at another woman!<P>But even if my STBX has given up the OM (and I don't think she has), even if she comes crawling back...will I take her back, knowing that I will go through this all over again? No. That is for sure. <P>Thanks again for the advice. I don't know what I'll do about OW (seems funny saying that...I've only known her for a few days), but I'll keep you all posted.

genesforme:<P>I'm not for "saving the marriage at all costs". But if you want to save your marriage, then I'll always advise you to do things that don't compromise your efforts, like dating.<P>If you are truly FINISHED with your marriage, hold no love for your spouse, and there's no chance that you want to return to the marriage---I don't have a problem with dating, per se. But that's after you have emotionally recovered from the aftereffects of your marriage breaking up. That (typically) takes up to two years. <P>So, your counselor's advice of waiting a year or so to date is wise. It's based on observation and collection of a lot of data. Every "atom" on the planet is unique, but I can synthesis water from oxygen and hydrogen with regular frequency. People are unique as well, but they follow very predictible patterns when their marriage breaks up. Some of these patterns and behaviors lead to success down the road. Quickly getting into emotionally-involved relationships within a 2 year timeframe (post divorce/sepration) does not lead to success, and most of these failed relationships cause additional emotional trauma.<P>I use "generalizations", genesforme, because they are more helpful for someone trying to internally sort out these issues then then relying on their instincts. The generalizations come from a compendium of similar situations---you, me, cjack, Jo, Lor... Your situation, for example, might work out for you. But I would advise you NOT TO DO IT---not because I think you're ignorant, nieve, or incompetant; but because the odds of it working are pretty strongly against it. And the cost of it not working out is pretty high (emotionally). And the cost of you waiting (or cjack), is actually not that high (even though you may want to have children with a new husband---and I remember having the same concerns when I was dealing with my wife's affair).<P>I'm sorry that I come off sounding like a crotchety old know-it-all at times: it's not meant to be personal. But it's my opinion based on psychological findings and studies, that there's an appropriate cooling-off period after a long-term relationship has ended. And that's it's pretty universal, regardless of individual circumstances.

cjack:<P>If you've truly given up your marriage, then you only need to wait for a year or so...<P>Cheer up!<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>1. It's not over until it's over. Divorce is final. But then...<P>2. It may not even be over then. Most affairs die within 2 years after being "outed". If you're faithful to your marriage, you should be trying to keep that 2 year time frame in mind, and protect YOUR love for YOUR spouse (ex or not) by whatever means necessary (Plan A, Plan B).<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So what you're saying seems to be that I should remain "faithful to my marriage" for the next two years, whether I'm actually married or not?!<P>When is the point when I can move on, then? Seems like I'm looking at around July of 2002. What do I do during that time...join a monastery? I'm sorry if I'm coming off as angry but I am. I've devoted everything to this marriage, and it's all been repaid with lies and pain. So rather than move on with my own life, I should sit at home, pining away for a wife that I don't even like anymore?<P>I'm sorry to vent, but most of you seem to be saying "never, ever give up your marriage." Some of you seem to think this is already a full blown affair, but its only a few kisses at the a bar and the possiblity of a future date. I don't mean to rationalize, but comparing what I've done to what she's done is like saying standing on a beach is swimming in the ocean.<P>I'm just really frustrated at this point. The message I'm getting is: "Deny yourself any kind of emotional feelings for anyone else for 2 years because there is actually a snowball's chance in he** that your W still loves you even a little and might, might maybe want to get back together with you."<P>I don't know if I can do that.<P>p.s. I just read the responses you wrote while I was compiling the above message. Thank you for being patient with me. I appreciate the support, I really do. And I don't want a relationship with ANYONE right now. I'm just a little weak, very human, and even a little impatient!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited December 01, 2000).]

cjack:<P>The "two-year" rule that I quoted is the guideline for how long affairs can typically survive. So if you discovered your wife's affair 18 months ago, and you're now going into divorce, I would have recommended that you take extraordinary precautions to protect whatever remaining love you have for your spouse for an additional half year. Of course, you profess to have no love left. I can't remember your timeline or the details of your story (sorry), but this is a common occurance when you stay in Plan A "too long" in a situation in which you're dealing constantly with the affair.<P>The other two year rule is the one in regards to reestablishing another serious relationship after ending a marriage. So, while I wouldn't urge you to join a monastery for two years, I would encourage you to have no "solo" opposite sex dates for 12 months after your divorce. Go out with your women-bashing guy friends. Go out in groups. But don't form any attachments. And then after that, I'd suggest that you not run out and attempt to marry the first woman who shows up for the third date with you---you should take it slow, and use what you've learned here to be selective AS WELL AS to demonstrate your considerable husbanding skills.<P>

So where do you draw that line? Obviously the entire **week** that my H and I "separated", me jumping in with Navy Man and him jumping in with the "pre-facelift Roseanne Wannabe" were too soon. Resilient and Lor are/were in the same boat of a WS "moving on", they were tired of their needs not being met and so they turned to an OP, but they both still had feelings for their H's, albeit numb ones. Seeing someone else in that situation could be debated on this board for months. <P>But when your divorce is final in a matter of weeks, the WS is with someone else, there aren't feelings left, what is the problem? I love a good, healthy debate, and I'd really like to hear where the line is supposed to be drawn. I'm sorry, but this is like thumbing your nose at somebody because they had sex before they were married. I wouldn't try to rebound into another serious relationship, and I would be up-front about where you're at in your life with this person, but what's wrong with going out with somebody else? Is he not supposed to attend the get-together at Allison's because he's a GUY and there are going to be WOMEN there? Should we have a Men's Only and Women's Only Forum? WHERE IS THE LINE DRAWN?<P>I'm not trying to disrespect anybody's opinion, I'm just trying to understand the philosophy.

I give up......cjack - only you know you and your life, goals, and plans.....do as you feel is best for you. <P>I am a scientist that deals with statistics everyday. Statistics are just that - assumptions based on a large volume of information where some large number of circumstances fall into an average - it doesn't mean that that average is 'normal' just a common occurance. Life is life and is quite dynamic - and random and unique. My experiences have rarely been within the average - just the way my life is.<P>I have no plans to run down the isle - in fact - I probably won't marry again - I have grieved - and grieved and grieved..... I am done now - it took a year - my pain is gone, I accept the situation for what it is - I am not fooling myself or holding onto false hope (something I did for the last 15 years or so), I am no longer numb, I am happy - even without this new person in my life - I was at that point several months ago - before we decided to date, I wanted to give my husband and my marriage every last shot - I did. It has come to conclusion. I really am ok with it - it is sad at times, but I'm ok. I wish him the best and really hope he finds the right person - he will - and I will be happy for them. Everyone should have someone. I was not his someone. - He feels the same way - by the way - he says that he is not surprised there are other people - other then the ones we choose - that will meet our needs better. And yes - he knows about him. You see - I am open and honest and that is what I need most from my significant other - which he can't/won't give.<P>I have been on this board about 10 months now but not posted much lately because I know I am a MB drop out/flunky/one of those failures that occur on the left side of the bell curve...lol - whatever, but I am truly happy for the first time in many years. I come here because I enjoy reading about the progresses of the people I have come to know and hope everyone else manages the right side of the curve - success. I am happy for those that succeed and sad for those who are on my side of the average, but life trucks on and people survive.<P>The best information I have taken with me from this site though is what an EN is - always knew I had them, just didn't know how to summarize it - the information here is wonderful for those starting new relationships also - I hope I make better choices and decisions in the future because of what I have learned - it has been invaluable. I appreciate your position and information K - My situation just doesn't fit the model for success. <P>ok - rambling....sorry.....<P>J

cjack, just want to try to clarify something.<P>Notice, I said try, not sure I can. If you wait (whatever the time period), it is not for your w but for you! You are hurting and want "someone" to soothe you, much like our WS wanted. I too felt like any "cheating" I could do was a drop in the bucket. Now, I'm glad I focused on becoming stronger.<P>In my case, our marriage is doing great, so I'm doubly glad I don't have to deal with any WS issues like Lor said. But regardless, I kept my integrity and protected my inner core.<P>We are hurting and "needy" and likely to hurt and be hurt. I think it would be less dangerous to turn to drugs or alcohol, though I wouldn't recommend it.<P>It does come down to the same issues our Ws faced poorly. You want relief now, but you also want to lay the ground work for a great long-term relationship whether with your w or someone else. Do you think those goals are compatible right now?

Quickly now, cause I have some work to do...<P>genesforme: What kind of science? Though I'm a lay person, I've always been fascinated by science. Amateur astronomer in high school, read lots of popular science books (Sagan, Hawking, etc.). Just curious!<P>Schizzo: I think what I've done with this situation is to finally focus on myself. For all these months, I've been focused on my WS, and how to win her back. I lost track of my own needs during this time. As I indicated in my initial post, I had turned down several opportunities to stray from my path. This time, I conciously gave in to temptation. Not to get back at W, but for my own self. I had been feeling pretty down, and this reminded me that I'm not a bad-looking guy, that I can still attract the opposite sex, and that I'll have a good chance if and when I have to start dating again. <P>I'm also trying not to over-think this whole thing. I mean, all I've got so far is a phone number and a vague agreement to go out "sometime" with this woman. Not exactly a hot and steamy affair just yet!<P>As far as laying the groundwork for a relationship...not a chance. For the near future (the next year or so), I'll follow the lead of the divorced friend who took me to the bar. He's been burned badly in both his marriages, so he doesn't get attached to anyone, period. As soon as they mention the word "relationship," or "committment," he heads for the door. He just dates...that's it.<BR>

cjack - <P>I am an animal biologist/behaviourist - specialized in genetics - particularly reproduction and inheritance genetics. I am currently working - in addition to my other work - with an oversees University studying genetic deviation in isolated herds of equines from national populations of the same species -....eeeks - that is a mouth full. It's a conservation and preservation group - they are trying to identify rare/endangered species.<P>I love my work.....thanks for asking...

cjack,<P>Aaargh, I hate when I write something and I'm not clear. I think it may be partly a male/female thing.<P>When I mentioned laying the groundwork, I didn't mean starting a new relationship at all.<P>I meant healing from the hurt, learning to be on our own, focusing on other things...<P>I guess you still believe you can handle casual dating. I know guys can better than many of us gals. But I think having casual partners cheapens relationships, making it more difficult to make the transition later to deep intimacy. IMHO.

Ok, I won't spit this time. I'm always starting over with better behavior.<P>ANd Genesforme, even though it appears like my marriage is going to survive, I've been all over that bell curve myself, not exactly a shining example of MB principles.<P>Cjack, your plan, other than not being currently divorced is ok, I just wonder if you don't underestimate how potent it is when someone--a new person!-- is finally nice to you. <P>Problems I see in this discussion of not-divorced betrayed dating is:<BR>1) We all like to think what we do, or have done is the right thing and we like to justify it. <P>2) Some of us have been on sides, both WS, BS, BS turned WS, WS, turned BS (I've been all of them) and the learning curve was nasty enough that we'd like no one to follow in our shoes and I personally would share any meagre learnings/insights I have had.<P>3) Dating feels better than mourning. There's the fantasy of someone new, there's a self-esteem boost, and someone seeming to care about you feels miraculous. But, as any psych or counselor will tell you, grief must be processed to heal. It takes time. Interrupting the process postpones or hinders healing. You take your marital baggage into the new relationship. The OM asked me exactly how long I planned to be a martyr...that tells me I wasn't giving out healthy vibes, even though that relationship was fun & he was in general very positive & upbeat about himself, me & what might lie ahead for us. You can be hurt more than you already are. And, quite honestly, although I was sorry that my H was hurt by my relationship with the OM, I didn't feel much regret for it until the last couple months...once I really didn't contact the OM any more and the withdrawal let up.<P>4) The other factors besides infidelity: the marriage has been miserable for both and all love lost, alcoholism, drugs, gambling, abuse, and multiple, on-going infidelty. Yeah, get out of the marriage if that is your choice.<P>5) A long Plan A is miserable. That's probably why Harley suggests 6 months. I stayed in it too long, through too many separations--I believe I'm one of the poster girls for doing so and not going to Plan B, but instead going for the divorce & careening into another relationship to strengthen my decision.<P>6) Working alone to save your marriage makes you vulnerable...and there are people, male & female who like to be white knights...and there are some who are predators...and they don't wear signs...and with your gut instincts riled by a WS you won't necessarily be able to tell. Just like a BS thinks badly of an OP for dating MP, you have to consider why your OP has chosen a person who is not legally available for a permanent relationship. Don't pull the blinders on. One of the insightful people here (remember this, Terri?), when I talked about how wonderful the OM was, asked, if he's so great why isn't he already in a relationship...gee, because I was "the one" he was waiting for. Saying something like that out loud...er...onscreen ought to catch your attention that maybe there's a couple wild cards in the game.<P>WHERE TO DRAW THE LINE:<BR>There are a thousand considerations, but like the others have said:<P>1) Not every marriage can be saved, but if you have any feelings for still wanting to save it, don't date. <BR>2) If you're sure you are done (like I was) or have found someone you want to be with, start the divorce proceedings. You don't lose anything by waiting for the divorce to be final. If the OP won't wait (and mine didn't, but he said he would), it's likely the relationship wasn't destined for success.<BR>3) If your spouse is divorcing you, again, why not wait to have anything more than friendship until the divorce is final? Give yourself that time to heal, and you start life post-divorce as a person of integrity.<BR>4) You're an adult, entitled to make your own decisions, including strokes of genius AND mistakes.

Thought I would put my two cents here for what ever they are worth. There are a couple things I have learned from my wife's affair, my drinking habits and the way our marriage was. <P>1. It is easy to attract someone and have an affair or poor relationship (assuming your divorced).<P>2. It takes a lot of work to have a meaningful realationship.<P>3. The level of satisfaction you will get out a relationship is directly related to how much work your put into the relationship.<P>4. In order to have a good relationship, you need to be a healthy individual first.<P>5. In order to become healthy, you need to work on yourself first.<P>So I guess based on what I know, if you want to one day have a meaningful relationship, hold off on dating woman you have met in bars with your women bashing friends. Work on your self. Wait to see what happens with your divorce. Work on yourself somemore. Be open to the possiblility that your wife and you may still have a meaningful relationship. Don't leave the marriage being angry and blaming your wife, but understand it takes two people to make a marriage work or to allow a marriage to fail. <P>Getting into the a divorce or another relationship with the attitude you have now will likely result in your spending the rest of some more years hanging out with your divorced buddies and going through a series of meaningless relationships, until you come to know what I know. <P>Just some thoughts.<P>Tim

Cjack,<BR>I'll relate my dating experiences. I am divorced, 10 months today. I waited till after I was divorced.<P>My first date was a month or so after the divorce. It was dinner and listening to some music group. She was divorced with 2 small kids. After initial date, I called her a few times to set up second date and she put me off and finally stopped answering my calls. So that was the end of that.<P>The second woman I dated was about 4 months after divorce. She was single with no children, slightly younger than me(14 yrs but whose is counting). We dated a month and then she sent me an email saying she didn't see the relationship going anywhere more than friendship and she wanted more.<P>I never kissed the woman goodnite or even held her hand. So no harm , no foul.<P>The third woman I dated was a blind date fix up. This occured 7 months after the divorce. Well something clicked and we started seeing each other as much as possible. She was divorced with 2 kids. <P>Things got hot and heavy between us and I started having serious thoughts when she lowered the boom and said we should break it off. She said she saw things in mean that she didn't think would work in a long term relationship. She felt that I placed my kids #1, which I do and that her kids would be #3 while she would be #2.<P>I agreed that my kids would be #1 with me just like I expected her kids to be #1 with her and that it would take time for them to be equal. She didn't think it was possible, so we ended the relationship.<P>This knocked me right back to where I was when I realized I was getting divorced. All the same fears, nobody loving me, being alone for the rest of my life, etc, all came racing back. It was painful, I felt this huge void in my life.<P>It has taken almost a month to get back to where I was before meeting her. I can't imagine what would have happened to me if this had occurred right after or before my divorce.<P>So my advice to you is slow down. Don't be a in a rush.<P>Some advice I got was NOT to date for the following reasons: 1) to show up ex-spouse.<BR>2)To help yourself heal. You must do this on your own.<BR>3) that a relationship is required to make you whole.<P><BR>So my advise is to back way off.<P>Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjack:<BR><B>What do I do during that time...join a monastery? I'm sorry if I'm coming off as angry but I am. I've devoted everything to this marriage, and it's all been repaid with lies and pain. So rather than move on with my own life, I should sit at home, pining away for a wife that I don't even like anymore?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What do you do during that time? You work on yourself. Find your balance and fix the things that you are responsible for so that when you are stable and ready, you have something of value to offer someone of value. A fling is just a fling. Do you want to throw away that snowball's chance in h*** or a future you that is wonderful to pursue your immeidate needs?<P>Listen, I am with you on this. I feel cheated too. I feel like I went through all the motions and did all the right things only to be "rewarded" with someone who didn't give a crap and feels not the slightest bit of remorse. There have been potential guys (oh, have there been potential guys!) and I have checked them out, but I know that they are only "Good time Guys". <P>There is nothing wrong with a good time, but at what cost? I really think that you should nurture yourself. When I started looking at the whole thing, I saw the ways that I was co-dependent and started working on breaking those patterns so that I wouldn't have that kind of relationship again. THAT is more important to me than having fun.<P>And yes, I go out with guys, but they aren't kissy types of dates. So, you can have a happy medium.

Yep, you are cheating. <BR>You are married. That is the one thing that is real clear.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>cjack,<P>I guess you still believe you can handle casual dating. I know guys can better than many of us gals. But I think having casual partners cheapens relationships, making it more difficult to make the transition later to deep intimacy. IMHO.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, after reading some of these posts I'm beginning to have doubts! <P>I don't know if I can do the casual dating thing, but I'd like to give it a try. BTW, my STBX went to court today to request a hearing...looks like we won't even GET a hearing until at least March of next year. Here in AZ, you can do your own divorce, but the lawyers get first dibs on court dates! <P>I'll have to disagree with you about casual dating cheapening relationships, though. I've known a couple of people who seem incapable of casual dating. They are always looking for a "relationship," and they are often disappointed when they don't find that "special" person. My friend I mentioned earlier tells his dates up front that they shouldn't expect anything out of him, except to go out and have a good time. He hasn't gone beyond casual dating in 4 years, and he's one of the most genuinely happy people I know. <P>I don't know when I'll start dating anyone, but I'll be looking for a middle ground when I do!

It is not a given that casual dating is a good thing, even if you are single and even if you are a teenager. There are certainly entire cultures (not to mention the "courtship" movement) that don't support casual dating at all. The Amish, for example, go right from group situations to at least the equivalent of "going steady." There is no "dating" - there is "courtship." I have seen absolutely no evidence that the Amish are more likely to get hurt romantically. And they are sure at a lot lower risk for STD's. <P>

cjack,<P>Yes, you are cheating.<P>Listen to Lor. Listen to K. Listen to the others who are telling you to stop and think about what you are heading into.<P>Honestly, I have trouble believing that your friend who refuses to have any kind of serious relationship is so "genuinely happy." One who never experiences pain can not appreciate pleasure. And there is a great deal to be said for the satisfaction and comfort of a happy and long term relationship.<P>I don't intend to bash anyone here - just MNSHO.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

At the very least, it's playing with fire, I have to admit.<P>Last summer, my husband asked me to come back to him, and while he was angry, abusive, acting so secretively and strangely (duh, he was still in full-blown affair with Miss Kitty, only at that point, he had decided that he couldn't give EITHER of us up) I did. I got out of the army and waited for him to come get me and take my to his over-seas duty station.<P>Not knowing about the affair, only knowing that my husband was cold and hateful towards me, I began a friendship with a man at work. He was a man that I considered dating when my husband left me and I found myself excited about the prospect (after the proposed divorce) but I was even more excited when my husband asked to reconcile. So that was supposed to be the end of that.<P>He was the single father of an adorable little girl. I offered to exchange babysitting with him, as I was alone with my son and needed to get out to the gym more often.<P>Pretty soon, the babysitting turned into dinners at home together, him, me and our kids--in grateful exchange for services. Then we started going out together, movies, bowling, county fairs, swimming--never without the kids--for fun. Soon, it was the norm to either spend all day at his house, or he spend all day at my house. We did everything together--eating, chores, caring for children, fixing cars, playing catch in the backyard--everything that I longed for in my cold, miserable marriage--which I still wanted, by the way.<P>His little girl was like my own child, that's how much I loved her--she and my son looked like twins. It was uncanny. I loved going out in public with my friend and having people fuss over our children. I had to explain, not without a smile, that not only were they not twins, they were not even brother and sister. <P>Of course, I was wearing my wedding ring from my husband. Only people like waitresses and storeclerks would assume that Phil was my husband when they saw us together, not just a tagalong friend. I thought it was fun to play like that.<P>One day I found myself sitting on my couch, tears streaming down my face. I was praying "Please, dear Heavenly Father, I love my husband so much, please help me be strong! Please help me overcome these feelings!" You see, I had fallen madly in love with my friend, and he me, and our children loved each of us as parents. No hanky-panky involved whatsoever. He never touched me. I never touched him (had thought about it, though, admittedly.) We never discussed our relationship, not even to mention that we enjoyed being together even to change the oil in my car or grill hotdogs. Except that he constantly asked me about my husband--what was the real deal with that? To my shame, I had started shading the facts--lying, in other words. It made me sick to admit this to God.<P>It was one of the most difficult things that I ever had to do--walk away from my wonderful friend and his little girl. (I thought about them for a very long time, and if fact, I have even heard from them recently.) But even in light of my failed marriage, after all of this, I am still proud of the fact that I did not succumb to these strong feelings. I can look God in the face and say that I am clean and I did not fail this time.<P>Maybe it's silly to say, and excuse me if I stand on the Christian soapbox that seems to cause such a stir on the D/D board these days, but I think that if it were right and permissable to God, he would have set up the proper circumstances for this relationship to occur--without sin and without fault. Who knows--it still may be? But in the proper time and with authority and permission from Him alone, and not because "I feel" that it is the thing to do.

cjack,<P>It is this simple.According to the law of the<BR>land.<P>Q. What are you the day before your divorce <BR>decree is final?<BR>A. Married<P>Q. What are you the day after your divorce decree is final?<BR>A. Single<P>Q. Am I condemning you for cheating?<BR>A. No, no person can condemn another person.<P>I believe your question was, am I cheating?<BR>Anything else would be a judgement call.<P>gentle

Hi cjack.<P>I gotta post, although you don't know me from a hole in the wall. <P>I am one of the women who left General Questions one year ago to start the Women's Bible study forum. We decided to pray about, rather than ***** about, our marriages <P>(Hi Lor(Lor), Taj).<P>I'm wondering how it is you think you will be able to 'casually date' when you are so touch deprived. I just assume that you are. <P>During my h's 14 month affair he never even looked at me, let alone touch me. I was absolutely TOUCH STARVED. <P>If I had allowed any male, including GODZILLA, to come near me or give me a hug, I would have been in the sack instantly.<P>Keep in mind, please, that I am a 14th generation Mayflower descendant with strict Puritanical values flowing in my skinny waspy veins. I am a 'churchmouse', there every time the doors open.<P>I guess what I am saying is, don't underestimate the power of need. Heal yourself first. <P>Take up hobbies -- rowdy sports, aerobic exercise, vitamins, take a hiking trip, do something challenging that doesn't involve people's emotions. <P>Avoid the bar scene (alcohol is a DEPRESSANT, remember?)--I've been there, done that, and felt really STUPID.<P>...now aren't you glad you asked?<P>lizpearl<P>(who, incidentally, has had her h. back home for 17 months and counting, and he is falling in love! He looks all dewy eyed like when he first met me.)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited December 02, 2000).]

A sincere thanks for all the new replies. Seems the consensus is "stop right where you are, dummy!"<P>I'll admit I'm seriously re-considering dating this woman...though I don't regret what I did (dancing/kissing at the bar). I'd like to think I'm allowed a mistake or two. <P>Now, here's some interesting news: I wrote about the night at the bar in my journal. Talked about how good it made me feel to be wanted by an attractive woman, etc. Lots of things I'd rather not share, actually. Anyway, STBX went to the house today to get x-mas decorations for her tree. She snooped, and read my journal. I had a very long (2 hour) phone conversation with her after that (I was at work). She never once mentioned the possibility of reconciling, but I think in the back of her mind, she still has not totally given up on us. I think she needs to go through with the divorce just to get some closure for herself. I think she still wants to have her cake and eat it too. She indicated she wanted to come over and talk tonight. I asked what, if anything, we needed to talk about. She replied "oh, I don't know. Maybe we just need to talk things out, say whatever else we need to say, and maybe get some closure." Hmmmmm....<P>Hmm.....<P>Hmm....<P>Do I stick my hand on the stove one more time, hoping that I won't get burned once again?

Walk on fire my friend...<BR>...you can make it through anything...<BR>...with what you've gone through so far.<P>I haven't enter much into the beginning of your post...<BR>...most know my views... (yes... very conservative)<BR>...and <B>allison</B>... never would I shut you up... each person is entitled to their own opinion...<BR>...I'll always love the person...<BR>......even if I disagree with the point of view.<P> <P>Jim

Hey Cactus! Good to hear from you.<P>I am glad that someone has caught your eye. if you feel the need to be "technical," just hold off another month. Or if you want to see her but not start a "relationship," just keep it friendly. I do not see the poblem with that.<P>You are now admitting that you feel your marriage is over, and your wife, even with the OM stepping out of her life, has yet to say let's try again. It seems to me that the decision has been made.<P>Go out, have fun. But be doubly sure you keep it for laughs for now. You know that you do not want to get emotionally tangled right now. Plus it is not a healthy time for you with the divorce progressing forward. Just be friendly for now. Make your postion clear, though.<P>And if you are in position for intimacy and that is your decision, then use the protection! Protect yourself, you know the routine...<P>Good luck.. I am glad that you are sounding alive and human again! I am proud of ya.<P>B.<P>Things still the same around here.....<P>PS: Wasn't the light parade great? Bethany is just a few lights down from me--got to see it coming right out of the gate! Took my D, H and S under the weather.

Dear cjack,<P> All I know is that you don't start a relationship until the previous one is dead and burried. Otherwise, you bring all the crap from the previous relationship into the new one, and that is not a way to build a lasting relationship. I know because I've done it.<P><BR> God bless you, <P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

Hi CJack ...<P>Hey ... no matter how good your intentions may be regarding "light" dating, there still is the fact that our needs haven't been met in a very long time (Love Bank deficit) and not only that but our self esteem has been depleted to an all time low. <P>When someone of the opposite sex notices us and likes us we easily feel a Love Bank deposit ... it just happens. <P>I'm not telling you to NOT date and I'm NOT telling you to go forward with dating ... I think you should just be warned. I've done it and believe me when I tell you it was not my intention to feel involved. All I wanted was to feel like I was part of the human race again. It was kind of an experiment to explore if anyone would even consider me a candidate as a a female friend. I had no idea I had this postential to feel connected to someone else, someone of the opposite sex. I was blown away at how easy it was to talk to someone else (as opposed to my H) and feel close to someone this way. Talking about needy! <P>I really feel for you. I know how conflicted you may feel. And you know ... it's all up to you what you want for your life. How you behave and what you can deal with. Just please be good to yourself, there are really good people our there ... people who truly care and mean well. People who can't understand how we (BS) have been mis-treated so terribly and think we are the BEST ... because we are, CJack. We are good people.<P>Love,<BR>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by burnedspouse:<BR><B>Hey Cactus! Good to hear from you.<P>PS: Wasn't the light parade great? Bethany is just a few lights down from me--got to see it coming right out of the gate! Took my D, H and S under the weather. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I was right around the corner! I had to work until 7 on Saturday, and access to our parking garage was actually blocked..my relief almost couldn't make it in time! I missed the parade, though. <P>

Cactus,<P>Well maybe we'll meet at the get together at Allison's at the MB meeting. If not I can rap through the internet waves.<P>Where is your radio building? Near Channel 3 on 7th Ave? But what do they say curiosity is not always a good thing...whatever-- <P>bye!

Dear Cjack,<P>May God bless and enlighten you in your new phase of life whether as married or single. May He bless you with wisdom and discretion and joy and days well lived. May He bless you with love, peace and hope and faith in God above. May your life be full of happy days and fellowship with God. May your parents be delighted at the potential that you are.<P>With God on our side, we cannot lose.<P>Love <BR>weep<p>[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 05, 2000).]

Burnedspouse...we're at 7th street & Missouri in the CSK building. <P>Weep: thanks for the prayers. I really appreciate that.<P>cj

Hey cjack,<P>I think I'll add my 3.5 cents here too (cost of living is higher in Hawaii)....<P>You're cheating if you are still married....in any sense of the word.<P>You're not married when your divorce is final.<P>While I'm not sure where I stand on re-marriage (which would include re-dating), you seem to accept it that once you are divorced you can date. <P>Okay....once you are divorced....date. But not before.<P>As for your marriage....until that divorce is done...anything could happen. Do you put your hand back on the burner? Well, it depends on how "sincerly" hot the burner is...only you can tell if taking a chance on your wife would be worth the try. Alot would depend on how SHE approaches the situation....is she repentent? remorseful? willing to change? willing to work with you? You know all the questions....<BR>I guess for me, even tho my marriage appears totally dead, I would have to give it one more shot....buy who knows how I would feel if faced with that choice....<P>I don't think you need to necessarily hold on to the marriage AFTER the divorce, although I believe that even then, it could be restored. There is a verse in Psalms that says "...blessed is the man who doesn't stnad in the way of sinners..." If she pushes the divorce thru, let her go.<P>And for you, that seems like the time to start dating, etc. when you are ready (even a casual thing).<P>Good luck sorting it all thru...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

What a trip, Cactus! So close--Ever been to Panino's? 7th Ave/Missouri. Love that place.<P>If you want to chat, or whatever here is my email is badg2@juno.com<BR>B