AGRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Please tell me if I'm kissing her butt too much. Steve says I have to avoid making her mad and be the doormat instead, but some times I want to scream!!!!!!!She moved into a bigger apartment last weekend so our son can have his "own" room. She calls on the phone tonight (Tuesday):Her: I need to ask you something. Please don't get mad.Me: OK, what?Her: You know that one old clothes chest in the au pair's room that we got from <her relative>?Me: Yea, I think so.Her: Can I have that for <son> over here (her apartment)? He needs a clothes chest.What I want to say: He has a very nice clothes chest here. He doesn't need one any where else. What I really say: Yea, I guess.Her: I mean, I bought him a bed and I'm not asking you to help pay for that - he really needs a clothes chest and I can't afford to buy one.What I want to say: Damn right I'm not going to help pay for another bed! He has a very nice bed already over here. Why did you buy another one? Can't you see how wasteful you're being? What I really say: OK, I'll see if the au pair has enough room for all her stuff in the other chest.Her: What do you mean?? <Son> comes before the au pair!!What I want to say: I know he comes first! DON"T YOU??? If you knew that, why did you have an affair with that arrogant slime ball and put yourself first ahead of the rest of the world and leave your son?? What I really say: Well, if she's using it, we'll have to find an alternative for her.Her: What's your problem? I don't think I'm being unreasonable!What I want to say: You no longer have any concept of reasonableness, you selfish infidel! What I really say: Maybe I can unload the old chest in my closet and get rid of some things I don't use anymore.Her: Good idea! Thank you.Now I ask you, am I being too nice? I'm not asking if I should say the things that I think of first, but how much is too much?WAT[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited March 20, 2001).]

I know mine is not the popular opinion around here. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I also realize the circumstances in your situation go far beyond what most people's do. But Dave, I have to say I honestly think your W already knows exactly how good of a man you are and that she knows you are a safe and non threatening place for her and she uses that knowledge to nothing but HER advantage. I know Steve has told you to keep up with Plan A. I am certainly no expert, I only know what worked for me.I think your wife will continue to take advantage of you until YOU put a stop to it. I don't have good feelings about her coming around(for whatever that's worth) because here she has gone and gotten a bigger place to make herself and her son more comfortable with her current arrangement. I just don't know how you do it and how you have done it for so long.You are a much stronger soul than I. Everytime I read about what this woman has done next I just want to send her a Plan B letter myself! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Just wanted to let you know that even though I don't post to you much,there's another person rooting for you!

Dave,You are being too nice.

Dave,My opinion will not be very welcome, and we know there are two schools of thought going here. Some think BS like us should make a move towards Plan B. Some think we shouldn't. Steve thinks we shouldn't. That was his message to me last time. Not much has changed, although I think I'm getting more disgusted and risk losing what little love I have left for my wife. Anyway, enough about me.I don't think the chest thing is a big issue. I know it is frustrating to have her request anything, especially when you have a perfectly nice place all set up for him. However, given that your wife is currently maintaining the "separation" state, she wants to set up her own place. I don't think you can stop her from doing that. It is a tough situation. But refusing to give in on some small issues like this wouldn't do you any good, in my opinion.I'll have to use my own situation as an example. My wife left, and before I found MB, she said it is over, so we bought another house for her. I've explained that one before. Good investment if she comes back, so no big deal. Good location for the kids if she doesn't come back. It does seem drastic. Anyway, I stay in our rather large, new house. Not equivalent living accommodations, and if this were to go in front of a judge in my area, I'd likely have to sell the house to even things out. I can barely afford to pay for this place, pay her, and cover all the bills and debts. But I'm struggling to do it for as long as I can for three reasons. Kids stability, I like the place, AND just in case she wants to reconcile. Why give up something we picked out as the perfect place, perfect lot, in a great area? My wife has spend alot of money outfitting her place. Took some stuff from here, but mostly got her own. A huge sum of money. It seems nuts. However, what if I hadn't found MB. Then I'd have thought there was .01% chance of reconciliation, and this wouldn't seem all so crazy. Armed with the knowledge of what affairs are, how they happen, how often they don't work, and how scrambled their brains are during the A, we know that there are better odds of them returning. So it makes the spending of money on another place seem crazy. But they are operating according to their fantasy mind, planning on living separately. We are operating a bit differently. Someone not in tune with affairs and MB might just throw in the towel and sell the house, split everything, start over in two houses. I'm not doing that now, my wife isn't forcing it yet, and it doesn't seem that you are doing that, although I don't know if you effectively split things.So, I'm rambling alot, but regardless of Plan A or Plan B, as long as they are in this fantasy world, and wanting to be separate, some things like this are going to occur. If you don't give in to something like the chest, you'll probably get the "you are in denial" speech, or "we are separated, isn't that crystal clear to you now" stuff.Now I'm a bad one to comment, because I let my wife get away with too much in the interest of not LBing, and she does some crazy things. It is a gamble that I take based on knowing my wife and how she operates. As you know, Plan B is on deck for me, but I'm also in a bit of a confused state right now as to what I want. I want my marriage, but have hard time envisioning us being a couple again. However, a bit of remorse and a desire to make it work from her could probably change that. Nevertheless, there are alot of hurdles to overcome, but for the sake of my kids, I want to try.I'm not sure if I've made any valid point here, but in a nutshell, you either accept that she "thinks" she wants to move on, or don't accept it and tell her to figure things out for herself (regarding the chest) and get her annoyed. Unfortunately, the annoyed option won't do you any good. Plan B would be better than annoying her in my opinion.But then......what the heck do I know about any of this stuff....look at the mess I am in and nothing is changing!!!! If you getting mad or angry was a problem in your marriage before, then you are not doing it now, and she must see it. She was even thinking that you would be mad at the chest, and you weren't. Isn't there something good in that?Take care.

WAT, I agree with Rick here. For one thing to deny her will be a lovebuster and two, she may end up spending money to buy one. So if she does end up moving back home, you won't have an extra chest on your hands.Remember in Plan B, Harley even recommends you help them move out so they remember how kind you are. I did that for my x, even though it about killed me. The other option was to have om come and get it.Hang in!

I think you did a great job. You seem to be dealing with someone who is kind of a wandering lost soul. Can't really be rational with a person like that at this point. I don't think you were hostile or too nice.I kind of thought you acted like a distant friend.Of course, like you, I would prefer to say the "what I'd like to say"...but it never gets you anywhere!!!!!!!

My two cents (that is all it is worth)Plan A is great for awhile but if it goes on for tooooooo looooonnnngggg it makes the BS also live in a fog instead of facing reality.........the truth sucks..... but what do I know-I can't even my own H around....my best advice:Pray and ask God what you should do.....[This message has been edited by Trs (edited March 20, 2001).]

My vote is that you are not being too nice, but just right. You guys are separated, and it is perfectly reasonable for her to want to make her place a bit like "home". In fact, I think it's good for her to try to do so, because then when all is said and done, she'll realize that something is still missing despite all the furniture, etc. - her family. That, IMO, is when you you want her to see you in the best light.Perhaps I'm fogged in too, so maybe I'm wrong, but I do know that when my W moved out two weeks ago, I went out of my way to be civil and cooperative (though far from helpful). I figure it this way: if I were a pain in the butt, kept harassing her and criticizing her, etc, then when she ends up unhappy in her new place, she'd say it's all because of me. OTOH, if I'm nice, civil, and cooperative, and then she is unhappy with her life (which she already seems to be) she will have no way to blame me, and will hopefully for the first time understand that there must be a reason that her "unhappiness" travels with her wherever she goes... Hmmmm.Anyway, just my thoughts. But like Rick said, what do I know, I too seem to still be headed in the wrong direction...Good luck.AGG

I don't have an au pere, but I know that you can pick up a nice new composit chest of drawers for under $100 at Target. It looks nice, but might be better than the one you would have to part with that you have probably had since college days yourself. Don't put yourself out, make helpful suggestions and let her do it. Do not give advice, just information. Do not give in to what you are not comfortable with, just leave her problem to her. It was her decision, and she must live with a few limitations for usefullness sake.Her rights are severely restricted, as my H's are now that he does not live here. He cannot even just come by with out calling first, and I must be here. Any way good luck.

Dave,I still think you are too nice but what about asking her if there is anything else in the house that she might want. I know hard but it might make major depoists in that old love bank.When I did this with my H, when he had an apt. he never took anything beyond a few towels, dishes, etc. the OW loaned him stuff. Think he always felt too guilty. Now when I wasn't coming here, all our stuff was packed up, he told me things he wanted, well actually he go back & forth between wanting me to have everything, to wanting to fight over who gets what. Remember FOG. They don't have a clue what they want.Glad you are going to a grief counselor. Good luck getting your wife there. I don't know how you have done all that you have. You have my respect & admiration. YOur son is lucky to have you.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]

WAT-I think you should keep doing just what you are doing, especially since Steve tells you too. I think it's wonderful how you can move past your own pain about your W's A and see the real things she's struggling with right now. If you don't try to help see her thru this (her grief, not the A), who will?Although I am sorry that you have to deal with this A along with your own grief. You are a very strong man. I only hope that your W sees this soon. God is working in her.

If it's a piece of furniture that's been in her family, just give it to her.

I think you are doing a tremendously well Plan A. But, for how long? She does seem comfortable in her situation as of right now. Are the two of you going to counseling? If there are no signs of reconciling, or joint counseling, I would start thinking of a Plan B. For the simple reason is when I read what she said, it sounds to me like she really knows how to push your buttons. Like she is more talking things out with a friend, and you need to be credited as her husband. She is deeply in a fog and you are helping her stay there. Tough up a bit and work on a different strategy.Good luck!

Thanks all for the good responses. To answer a few questions:How long can I do this? I know that I should consider Plan B and I have. Currently, I fill no ENs other than being a father to our son, and that would continue under Plan B, so what's the point of switching.I know I'm enabling her to a great extent. She has never admitted the affair and any discussion I attempt to start about us immediately comes to a screaming halt.She did talk to Steve on one occasion in November and he's asked me to ask her again, so currently I'm trying real hard to soften her up so she might agree. Other than that, she refuses counseling because she is not in an affair, get it? She left because I "abused" her (see "Unfaithful Spouse Internet Dictionary", "I haven't loved you for a long time", submitted by Terri). There is no talk of reconciliation, other than she says it's "not likely."ILoveaCop - You may be correct that I'm letting her stay in the fog. I don't know what to do to toughen up a bit other to give her an ultimatum, which I know some advocate. I do plan to be more assertive with scheduling our son's time with her - trying to firmly establish that last minute changes are not acceptable.sing - I did ask her this morning if there was anything else she needed and she seemed surprised that I asked, but requested nothing - just said thanks for asking.Our special circumstance, for those of you who may not know, is that we lost a son in Aug. 1999 and my wife has never really let her grief come out. Her affair was a way to run from the pain. I'm working now with a grief counselor to see what can be done to engage her in counseling for this problem, which I hope will result in fixing the total package.Thanks again, and please offer any more suggestions.Dave

OK. I probably also have a not very popular response to this issue. I look at it as that it will be an inconvenience for you to give her the chest. Moving your stuff around, the au pair's stuff around, etc. If it were setting empty, that would be another story. Then by all means let her use it, but it's currently being used.I think that you do have to draw the line somewhere on letting her get by with too much. If there is a way that you can in a non judgmental way (because I probably couldn't do it non judgmentally) somehow make her realize that she made this choice, and she is going to have to live with the consequences. If that means that she can't afford a chest until next month, then that's what has to happen at this time. I agree with the others that she probably has become a little too comfortable in this situation because it hasn't been very difficult. I also agree that the issue probably isn't really with the chest, it's probably somewhat of a control issue as well. She expects that you will let her have it simply because she asked.It just seems like you've been dealing with this for a long time already and until there are consequences for her actions, your W may not be close to coming out of her deep, thick fog.Just my thoughts....

Plan B doesn't have to be, or even resemble an ultimatum. We all know our WS's act like wild,rebelious,irresponsible teenagers,so Plan B in the form of an ultimatum, is likely to get you no where fast and might even intensify the undesirable behavior. Plan B can be a simple statement that you can't take it anymore and have to protect yourself from the pain.You asked what is the difference between Plan B and what you are doing now, since a formal Plan B wouldn't really change the details of anything? The difference is, and I believe this is a very important difference, is that....it is INITIATED by you, and puts you in control of your life and gives WS absolutely no control over the quality of your life. You are done with them,period,until they decide to talk about reconciling or divorce. Everything is formalized,and although WS has a say in arrangements with the kids the initial agreements that get worked out are adhered to. IMHO I think that there is a big difference between a WS initiated separation and a BS initiated separation. When WS initiates a separation it's all about them,their freedom and self indulgence.They become comfortable quickly because this is something they wanted. I think the longer they stay there, in a place of their own doing,the harder it becomes for them to admit they made a mistake and come back. Now when BS initiates a separation, or formalizes a WS separation with a Plan B letter(which is a statement of their own,giving BS back the control of their own life)I think it hits WS in a different place. All of a sudden BS is saying this is about what I will and will not allow as part of my existence.Boundaries set. Any attempt at manipulation by the WS is now nixed,they can't just come and go and peek in to see if the waters are still inviting,they don't know if they are, and I think that is what gets them thinking and wondering and hopefully evaluating what they will lose.Plan B throws uncertainty into the life of the WS.Uncertainty forces us to think. Best of all it can be done respectfully and lovingly and w/o being a LB.Continuing with everything on their own terms,especially when done for a prolonged period,only serves to make them comfortable and bolder about manipulating things to make their new life what they want it to be,especially if BS gives in to their every whim.(I'm NOT saying you give in to every whim Dave)I think with prologed Plan A,(especially when they make no attempts at reconciling,they are not even fence sitting) WS becomes so self absorbed that they stop seeing BS as a human being who has a basic right to be respected and protect themselves from the incredible pain all of this brings about.I know Dave, that your wife has suffered a tremendous loss,but so have you.I so hope that she will engage in this grief counseling with you. However, their is no way to force another person to deal with their grief or anything else for that matter.You can limit the pain for yourself though.Changing the mix and letting her know you won't assist her in further deteriorating your marriage by accepting this separation on her terms, and, that it's time for your life to be about you, might just provide some motivation for her to think about what she's doing instead of being so stubborn and selfish. Honestly, I wish you and your family the very best!

mthrrhbard - thank you very much for your wisdom. It struck a chord with me. I hadn't thought of plan B so much as what it stands for symbolically. I was hung up on its practicalities and its logistics. I will give it very serious thought and discuss it again with Steve. You got to me. Thank you for your time and caring.Dave

Dave,"He set for me the standard for honesty, bravery, and outlook on life. I have a completely different perspective on life and when I grow up, I want to be just like him."This was your quote from your son, in another post. That statement alone has profound meaning, and is very moving. I just wanted you to know that....

Thanks, Rick. I wish I could communicate completely how he affected my life.Dave

Thanks for reiterating that statement, Rick. It really touched me, too. It is clear that your son had a very profound impact on your life, Dave, and it shows how very strong you are. I admire you deeply for how you have and are handling everything that you have gone through. Take Care!

The chest came from her family. Giving HER chest to her is not being nice. Not giving it to her would be being a jerk. In most states, your w is probably entitled to half of everything you have. If you don't give her even HER chest, you will probably just confirm her opinion that you are "abusive." (I believe you said she felt that you were abusive - I don't know if she meant emotionally or physically.)When my h moved out into a small apartment, he felt too guilty to take anything except a few small things from his family. I INSISTED that he take enough to comfortably furnish his apartment. I even helped him move it in and set it up. It looked really nice. He'd planned to purchase enough things for a rather Spartan bachelor pad. I seemed generous and caring to him. I was really being somewhat manipulative because I didn't want him too vested in his new place. Also, he was incredibly impressed at what a nice person I was. 4 days later he was home. We are 2+ years into recovery. He has never been happier.[This message has been edited by wesse (edited March 22, 2001).]

Dave, Just for the record, I agree that you should give her the chest. I don't think I ever said otherwise. I just think that for her, this is about a lot more than the chest.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This was not about the chest, per se. That was just the most recent example. The majority of her belongings are still in "our" house. This was about the behavior of a spouse who left her family, but still wants to have some controls and the frustration that brings to the spouse that was left.Dave

Hi Dave,I am very late in responding here but I do think that by not lovebusting you did the right thing. You are adhereing to Plan A, which is what you want to do at this time. When and IF you move to plan B, you wont have to worry about having those conversations and being "nice". Everytime I read about what is going on between you, I feel hurt for you. I am praying for your family.The words your son wrote about you are beautiful. Everyone should be as blessed to have a father that can be described like that. I have a father like that and I understand the gravity of his feelings. I know that I would not still be here ( in this marriage) if it weren't for the lessons I learned from my father. I hope things start getting better for you real soon.cleo

Thanks cleo - actually, those were my words describing my son at his memorial service. I hope he felt the same for me.Dave

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I am sure he felt that way about you as I am sure your surviving son feels the same. You are the one sure thing in his life.

Dave, {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{DAVE}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Do you ever talk to her about the death of your son? My 1st H died and it was alllll I talked about for months. Same thing as A, people assume your all better in just a few months, and if your not, well then your just crazy. Don't you just love those attitudes?------------------ Deb