To K, Nyneve and anyone else - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Hi guys...you had me very intrigued about the "contact" discussion and some questions occurred to me...k - I have indeed been in e-mail contact with a few MB'ers, both male and female...I have even met one in person. I had asked Sheryl(and Lori-lostva) to try to start communication with my W because W had no "neutral" parties to talk to. She only talked to OM, her mother and sister..OM and mother actively trying to get her to leave...I understand your point about the dangers of private e-mail conversations, but that is just one step of many that would have to be taken to have an actual "hook-up". If one extrapolates a relationship resulting from e-mail contact between MB'ers, it isn't much of a stretch to back up to just participation on this board.More simply, if e-mail exchanges can lead to "relationships", then step back one level and you could say that participation on this board can lead to e-mail exchange, which can lead to imappropriate contact.I can't say that I disagree with your rule concerning contact, but I would believe that it isn't absolute. It completely depends on the parties involved. There are relationship dangers associated with the internet, but I would think that porn sites and non-support "chat" rooms are the most risky.I can truly say that being able to e-mail other MB members(including females) has been a pillar of my strength to withstand the shocks of this experience.With Lori, e-mail has progressed to telephone communication which progressed to meeting in person. You would definitely disapprove of the subject matter of some of our conversations, but it has been a boon to me to get the "female" perspective as it has(I think) for her to get a "male" view. Besides, I have met both her H and D as well and like them both very much(and I'm pretty sure they like me). We have bonded into almost a "brother-sister" relationship. Maybe this is the exception, but following your "no-contact" rule, it never would have happened.As far as Sheryl's situation is concerned, I wouldn't proceed as she has, but I'm glad that she has found happiness as a result. Maybe the "process" wasn't the right one, but in the end, she may be where life intended her to be.Sheryl - Maybe people are right and you do need a break, but I believe that you are very valuable here as both an example of what's right to do as well as what's not so right. The people who judge you excessively in the negative(not meaning you, k), either don't know your whole story, or don't care. I sure wouldn't want any of those people on a jury judging me.... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Anyway, that's my spin for what it's worth...--DeWayne--

DeWayne:Here's my issues with Email:1. It can lead to an "inappropriate friendship" with members of the opposite sex.2. It can lead to a somewhat inappropriate level of counselor/patient relationship with someone who just isn't trained to counsel.The first issue can be taken care of via POJA-style arguments. You make all correspondances public with your spouse. You both agree that they're OK. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying that this will always lead to an affair---but it can (and HAS) happened, even here.I'm also not going to argue that you're in an inappropriate relationship with Lori, or that it's not valuable to you. But it's not the ONLY way you could get such support. There are less risky (maybe more expensive: 888-639-1639 [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) ways to do this.The second issue (counselor/patient relationship) is where I tend to draw the line for myself. As an "experienced" MB'er, I've been asked to email off-line (and have, early on). The problem is, that even though I probably am "OK" at playing armchair counselor---I'm not trained for it. I've discussed this with Steve Harley himself, and he suggested NOT doing email stuff for this reason, as well as that staying on the board benefits many more people.So---that's where I'm coming from. I'm not going to tell you "hey, if it works for you, great...", because it sends the wrong message to those who it WON'T work for. Email conversations concerning marital issues with members of the opposite sex is a real danger---and I would "just say no". If you're going to do it, use appropriate precautions.Sounds like a teen-sex pamphlet... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Howdy Hey DeWayne,Of course, can I do anything but agree with you? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I do, of course!!I count you among my **true** friends... platonic hugs and all!! I have made a few here, in this place, despite some very real issues. One person I speak with offline has been quick to tell me, over and over again, that cyber-life is not real-life. I agree with him. But... sometimes the two worlds converge (well duh, for obvious reasons!).DeWayne, I consider it a privilege to know you, and that you felt I was able to help your W. It didn't work, but it was a nice thought, and I was more than happy to lend a helping hand.Big ol' platonic hugs, my friend,Sheryl

I totally agree with K. We all can be vulnerable to an affair. It is better to be safe and keep it on the board, than sorry. I am glad you have not been challenged in that way, DeWayne but as we can see, it can lead to other things.

My view on this subject is. we are all going through a very vunerible time in our lives. Most of us are very lonely especially for the member of the opposite sex. Contact other than just posting on the board could be dangerous to the REAL recovery process. Hell i know how dangerous that can be..almost everyone of in here can trace our mate infidelity to lonelyness. Our spouse felt that something was missing, so they started "friendships" with someone of the opposite sex.. which led to more than "friendship". I can work for the BS too..just be carefull. ------------------ Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

k - Hey, I know you're busy today, so I'm not expecting a long conversation or even another response for a while, but I just wanted you to know that I do understand your position. It had just occurred to me that, in that vein, participation on this board could lead to e-mail and so on.... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"hey, if it works for you, great..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would expect nothing less or more from you my friend!!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Sheryl - I am truly honored that you consider me a **true** friend and the feelings and sentiments are returned!! You have been one of a very few that kept me sane when insanity surrounded me.Platonic hugs right back at 'ya...Raskal - Thanks for responding...I'm still looking for thoughts about extending contact back to board participation. Logically, it makes sense, right???Hi, bioman - Sure that type of contact could be bad, but why is e-mail special?? What if, as a man, you happened to be in the produce section at the grocery store and you notice an attractive, but sad looking woman staring longingly at the cucumbers?? Wouldn't that situation be even more dangerous than an e-mail??--DeWayne--

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heartpain: woman staring longingly at the cucumbers?? --DeWayne--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Damn that is so funny...thanks i needed that LOL [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

Well, I understand K's position, and it certainly is a safe one. However, I have emailed members of both sexes.Not only that, but I'm currently doing something which may put me in a position to be in frequent contact with young, attractive women, many of whom may be well-suited to meet some of my ENs. What am I doing? Looking for a job! My W had her A with an OM from work, and my impression is that that's where most of them start.Yes, there are dangers with email--I've agreed to curtail the communication with one person because we agreed it was not best for two people with high need for conversation to get too much of that need met thru someone other than our spouse. But I'm not highly peer group dependent, and don't easily fall into close friendships. I know that cyber isn't the same as in person, and I think that for me there are lots more urgent dangers than email.Really it comes down to one's ability to maintain appropriate boundaries, and to keep open with one's spouse. I certainly agree that caution is in order, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that one rule fits all.Steve

Steve - Very considered opinion, thanks...My W is aware of my contact with Lori and others. I don't always discuss the details, however...maybe not POJA, but in my situation it is best. She has also taken some interest in Lori and Sheryl's stories and situations.I think that when vulnerable, *any* type of one-on-one contact is dangerous, e-mail or otherwise. It really does depend on the strength of character of the person(people) involved. As a "general" guideline, I would agree with k....--DeWayne--

Steve:I hear what you're saying. It's absolutely about having appropriate boundaries. Most people who have affairs would have said the exact thing---before the affair. But if you follow the rule---there's no problem. And how much do you "miss out" on?Hey, it's very possible to have close friendships with members of the opposite sex that never turn into affairs (I've done that). It's also possible to put a couple bullets into a revolver, "spin the wheel", put the gun to your head and pull the trigger---and LIVE!!It comes down to a "cost/benefit" analysis on the behavior and it's risks. I've done that for myself---and you know what the position is. It is safe!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by K: It's also possible to put a couple bullets into a revolver, "spin the wheel", put the gun to your head and pull the trigger---and LIVE!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, that's certainly a visual that works. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hi Sheryl(don't want to get into any trouble..lol)Hey there DeWayne!!!it's almost the end of the month...are you and Susan traveling?....are you daring to brave the white north?we could maybe entice Sheryl over here too...(she's only 9 hours away!!!!!) As for the subject matter, Deut has open access to my e-mails, and vice versa....if either one of us sees that a 'situation' may be arising that is innappropriate, then we advise each other, and tell the person, that a line has been crossed, or that the subject matter is such that we are not comfortable...for example, an old high school buddy found me, and started an e-mail 'catch-up session'.....all was fine, then he slowly started talking about his marriage and his troubles...I directed him here and explained that I was not a councellor...perhaps he had male friends he could talk to, or better yet, perhaps he could talk to his wife...really talk to her...he said he wanted and really needed a 'female perspective'...I did feel badly because he really needed help....he stopped e-mailing me.......so be it.We could spend much time on the dynamics of all this, opinions for both sides of the proverbial coin, etc....heck..I e-mail Sheryl all the time....(poor Sheryl)and certain other husband and wife 'teams'....and there are many here I would give my eyeteeth to meet....but then again, I am busy rebuilding a marriage and the shattered being of myself....I love my H, my family and my friends.....never say never, but I find myself still too fractured to even remotely 'lean' on a member of the opposite sex for support and encouragment....unless it is here, in this public forum.....for all to see.and Sheryl.....DO NOT get me started on the whole cyber-life is not real life argument......you know that I wholoeheartedly feel that that particular l8ine is bull-caca...this cyber-life is wholey ingrained into my so-called real life...many of you here are the only people I talk to about Deut's affair, and some of you here are counted as my friends...real or cyber...much here has more of an impact in my life than what occurs on the other side of this screen....real life friends told me to leave..dump the 'loser'...take him for everything, and get on with my life......If this weren't 'real'...why the heck do I have insomnia, worrying about some of you.....my gosh..during the whole Arik and Nicole thing, I couldn't sleep for days!!....Lori and Robert had me biting my nails to the quick......DeWayne and Susan had me crying....Sheryl had me on my chair cheering for her strength and passion in life...K, you have touched me with your love for your son........I could go on and on and on.....we touch each other's lives here....you CANNOT deny it... for those that truly believe this is just cyber-life.... here's a quarter......call someone that cares...you all here are more real to me than those that discourage me every day in real life......Sheryl....what was that recent thread you started ..?...oh....the thank you to lostva, myself and ^*&*@$....that;s the one.....go to that and re-read my first post to you on that thread.......I wrote it out better there..... so, DeWayne, are you coming to Montreal?!?!?!....huh...huh...I'm 5 minutes from Dorval [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Dylan Dylan

[b]"Wouldn't that situation be even more dangerous than an e-mail?? "DeWayne,Ive made my assurtions about how i feel about opposite sex relationship about a 100 times here and in a nutshell, I dont approve of opposite sex relationships simply because I have heard too many times the story about how we were friends and we could talk about anything and she/he was willing to listen when no one else would and they understood me. then the next thing you know "it just happened" I have similar hang ups about inappropriate same sex relationships. and ill own that this all may be just my crap here, how many time have you experiance the "Nail Lady" that woman who is your wifes or friends wife who is filling their head with nonsense. relationships that are founded on the cornestone of troubles in marriage are hazardous all the way around. its one thing to seek perspective, its another to have a relationship based on the kinship of common problems in your marriage. to me that puts you to emotionally close from the start.its like saying i drive on the wrong side of the street because ive done it before and i actually got to where i was going faster that time. just because you havent run head long into a car yet doesnt mean it wont happen, but it does at least to me seem to be an undo risk. ------------------ in loving service chazforgot to comment on the quote above [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

i vote no, the real danger for me is establishing a friendship an emotional connection that i cant diferentiate from love. sex might take me away from my wife for a moment, an emotional connection takes me away completely.[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited May 24, 2001).]

Hi Dylan <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and Sheryl.....DO NOT get me started on the whole cyber-life is not real life argument......you know that I wholoeheartedly feel that that particular l8ine is bull-caca...this cyber-life is wholey ingrained into my so-called real life...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...oops... yes, of course you are right!... and I take it all back about believing my friend who told me that... where else can I get GREAT BIG CYBER HUGS??...and feel such love and non-judgement...and yes, sometimes judgement, but the good kind from people who care (like K, Bystander, JL, Kam)...NOPLACE else... no PLACE. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sheryl....what was that recent thread you started ..?...oh....the thank you to lostva, myself and ^*&*@$....that;s the one.....go to that and re-read my first post to you on that thread.......I wrote it out better there.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know, my dear, sweet, loving, full-of-life FRIEND, how very much you care for me...It is reciprocated 100 times over.Love,Sheryl [This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 24, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by chazbutler: I have similar hang ups about inappropriate same sex relationships. and ill own that this all may be just my crap here, how many time have you experiance the "Nail Lady" that woman who is your wifes or friends wife who is filling their head with nonsense. relationships that are founded on the cornestone of troubles in marriage are hazardous all the way around. its one thing to seek perspective, its another to have a relationship based on the kinship of common problems in your marriage. to me that puts you to emotionally close from the start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> chaz, Well said! My W had a friend who was a very bad influence on her at the time of her A, and the friend happened to have marital problems also.posted by K: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It comes down to a "cost/benefit" analysis on the behavior and it's risks. I've done that for myself---and you know what the position is. It is safe! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> K, I certainly agree about the cost-benefit analysis, and it's the weakest aspect of my job example. It's much more important to me than emailing. OTOH I may get up in a little while, drive to a convenience store, and buy some diet coke. The benefit is a brief break and a small amount of pleasure. The cost may be my life, if a truck swerves across the center line at just the wrong time. If I decide to never drive unless absolutely necessary I'm certainly safer. However, I regard the probability of disaster as sufficiently low that I'm willing to chance it. Now, if I were to get drunk and drive very fast the probability of disaster rises greatly.Email is perhaps similar in that we may assess the probabilities of disaster differently. OTOH, if I do a lot of personal sharing with someone of the opposite sex, or rely on them too much for advice, it may be analagous to drinking before I make my trip to the store. It's asking for trouble.Really, I'm more concerned with the general principle that any time I let someone else meet a significant amount of ENs relative to what my spouse is meeting it is not good for my marriage.OTOH I can't really disagree with either the cost-benefit analysis that you've done for yourself, or that there are those who would have been much better off had they chosen your rule for themselves. I believe that you've said this is a POJA decision with your W, and I think that's the bottom line.POJA, honesty, and seeking to have ENs met in the marriage rather than elsewhere is what is needed.Steve

I just stopped in to say "Hi"! (and 'cause I've always been nosey, but, hey, what the heck!)I agree with everyone. When PT was lurking, I established e-mail contact with a number of MB folks, male and female. A few I still do from time to time. Several, we met in person once Robert came home. That WAS one of the rules - for me anyway. No face to face unless we were back together or divorced. Robert and I talked about this at length at the beginning and since. As did DeWayne and I when he was coming home. If there was any indication whatsoever that the friendship made him uncomfortable, it was over forever. No explanation needed. MB and my friends here saved my life and I chose to bring my husband into the fellowship. He didn't think it was a big deal. However, I did. I know how he and PT got started and there have to be boundaries - personal internal ones. I share all conversations with him (yup, even the strange and unbelievable ones). I even tell him if I was fussing about him. My password is stored on the computer, as is his, AND Kristin's and all emails and other activity are there for the world to see. He thinks DeWayne's the greatest and is planning a trip out to see him and Susan as well (Oh, did I mention that, dear brother?). But, like I said, I do see how it can be dangerous. After all, he and PT were just friends, right? Until I lost my job, I somehow managed to acquire jobs for the last 15 years that put me working EXCLUSIVELY with males (although the last 6 months of the last ones, there was one other woman.) That could be dangerous. Face it, all of us are human and most people are at least attracted to someone else a ton of times in their lives. It's what we DO, what we THINK that matters. How we choose to live our lives. You can call them boundaries, life decisions, moral guidelines, whatever you want. It all comes down to your relationship with yourself and drawing that line that you forbid yourself to cross. Face it, everyone knows where something's going long before it gets there. Even Robert admits that. Every teenaged girl who ever dated a boy can tell you that stuff doesn't just happen. Warning bells go off, conscience kicks in - we choose to ignore it. A Long LONG time before there's any trouble.My rule....I don't share anything that I don't share with my husband. I don't take any time that I can be with him to chat with anyone else, on the phone, by email, IM, or on this board. Friendships with those of the opposite sex are possible, but they do require complete honesty and extreme precautions, I think. and they cannot under any circumstances exclude your spouse.Ok, going now...you guys have a good day. Oh, Dylan, I need to talk to you.Love,Lori

Lori

Just hi, and a hug... it super to see you!!(((((Lori)))))You like my cool new name???Love, Sheryl

i LOVE your cool new name. I printed the post on how to pronounce it, but, well, you know me! I lost it!Are you feeling better? I don't get around here every day - the weather's beautiful and I'm outside all the time. Oops - gotta run. Going out with Robert tonight. Talk to you soon.Love you!Lori

Yes, slowly but surely, I am feeling better...Off to see my kids tomorrow and I'm so excited... plus, I have found another message board - totally not marriage or infidelity related to post on when I come back... time to s-l-o-w-l-y (or with a sharp knife, can't decide! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) move away from here.Big, big hugs!!!!!Love you tonnes (that's tons, kinda, in metric, which I've had to learn around these parts)!!

ahhhhh, the dreaded double post!!!!! Egad [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Have a great time with Robert, Lori......and I came back and saw you, K, and your silly "give her a..." I really am a poor student, like that's news to you, and I was all worried I was wrong about the tonnes thingy. Oh well!!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 24, 2001).]

Give her a centimeter, and she'll take a kilometer...

Well, at least once I have to use the secret name... I mean ...I know nobody else knows this, so I think it's time they did... and I may never come back, so here goes:K stands for Kooky. He told me that on another post... the mystery is solved!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

So, Kooky, thanks for sorting all this out with me... you are truly, TRULY appreciated.

Hi MB Friends!Hey Dylan, ^*&*@$...... Now who could THAT be? I agree with your thoughts about cyber-friends. After all, I have shared things with people here that I have not shared with anyone else I know (except for firestorm, of course). I have also lost sleep, let work pile up and go undone, and missed appointments because of concern about my friends on this site. You are all very real to me, and I pray for you all every night and think of you all each day. When you aren't here for a while, I miss you and worry about you. Just the thoughts of Sheryl leaving again makes me sad!I think we all have a very special bond because of the shared experience of infidelity, no matter whether we are the betrayer or the betrayed. Having both sides represented here has been very beneficial. I know that getting to know SKM and Sheryl has made me think about the OW in my marriage in a different way that has helped me to move past that part of it. And getting to know Dylan, Nicole, kam, wassi, Lori, Lor, K, HGB and many others has made me realize that the choice to recover instead of run is a valid decision and an attainable goal for us.How can people that truly helped save me, my sanity, and my marriage and family NOT be real to me? And more special than most of you could probably ever believe!Love,Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Heartpain:Raskal - Thanks for responding...I'm still looking for thoughts about extending contact back to board participation. Logically, it makes sense, right??? --DeWayne<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>DeWayne,Well, I feel that as long as you keep it on the board, things would not likely get out of hand. Certainly if I never posted, there would not be opportunity, as you say....but I feel that once you take it to email you run a greater risk of inappropriate behavior.Just like if you were in a group of friends to lunch, male and female. Unless a man and woman from that group walks away and starts talking privately, I think it is a safe situtation for one to be in. Does that make sense?So, if I was whinning away about my relationship with my husband on this board and a man starts doing the same about his wife in my thread....I think that with so many other people helping that nothing would start, unless you took it to the next level of emailing each other. But yes, I do see your point about it starting here, on this board. As for relationship dangers usually happen on the internet in non-support chat and porn sites, I would have to disagree. My EA was via email that with a man I met over the internet. (Not from this site)Anyhoo, I hope this clarifies my position. Great thread, btw! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Raskal (edited May 24, 2001).]

Hey Heartpain!!!!How are ya? Just skimmed through the thread before signing off and had to make sure to say a big ole' HI to ya!!! Miss ya!!!And "Hi's and Hugs" to K, Lori, Dylan, etc......and Nyneve? (did I spell that right? - Geez...NB - I can't keep up with you girl!!!!)Love to all,Sheba