Marriage Builders
Posted By: chazbutler Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 05:00 AM
I am not in any shape tonight to jump in on SNL WS post, I promise i will tommorow!<P>but a question I Was asked by my wife no less along with many more alone the way is, If things were that bad, why not leave before you had an Affair?<P>the question seems almost rediculous to me now, because you see its the same reason i had the A.<P>I WAS TOO WEAK A MAN<P>Too weak to stand up for myself in my own marriage<BR>Too weak to scream loudly enough that i was dying inside<BR>too weak to stand in integity with my commitments<BR>too weak to realize that those conversations with women were me seeking to meet an unmet need.<BR>too weak to realize that the woman i befriended and who befriended me was becoming more than a friend.<P>too weak to recognize when weak became immorale [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>too weak to leave, <P>no base of power or strength to confront or face my wife.<P>you see as i had weakness my wife had strength,<P>she had control and power, the ability to say it was so. thats how it is and you will like it.<P>I was dead inside.<P>then at a time when i was my lowest, someone offered me love and support and strength, friendship, all the things my wife was supposed to offer me, and i was too weak emotionally and spiritually to resist. and when i fed on this milk, i felt what being alive was like, and i fed on that energy that life giving force until i got strong, yea i got strong again and when i was strong enough, my mind and spirit awoke, and i knew how wrong what i had done was.<P>it was in that moment in that strength i knew it had to end. and i set about changing my life. <P>i was still to weak to just walk up to my wife and talk about life, hell i couldnt take money out to have a cup of coffee without getting scolded like an 8 yr old, and weve cleared 6 figures for 6-7 yrs. <P>so to answer the question at least for me, why not leave?<P>I was to weak a man, to weak emotionally, to weak spiritually, and quite frankly to weak physically, weak because i was dead inside.<P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz<p>[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited August 23, 2001).]
Posted By: Twyla Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 05:19 AM
Hi Chaz,<BR>You know, I've re-read your post a couple of times, and it's funny, because I had many of those same issues before I found out about SO's A. And there isn't much doubt in my mind, that given more time, less exhaustion, and someone fairly interesting around, I would probably had an A too. I wasn't very happy at all. The thing is, I don't know if it's necessarly weakness as much as it was just total ignorance of how to reach out to a partner that tips the scale for an affair. I seriously think that if his A hadn't happened, I wouldn't have gotten the "kick-start" to do something to save my relationship and learn how to be a partner.<P>Just a musing I have.<BR>T<P>
Posted By: *Cali* Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 05:31 AM
I don't know if your wife has said it Chaz...<P>But, I've said it to my H...I am soooo sorry...<P>I said the words to him...I recognized right away what had led to the condition of our marriage...but I didn't know "why."<P>I have since read "The Mastery of Love" which is teaching me the why...<P>Please know that just as you 'fell' into the A...your wife 'fell' into her pattern...it wasn't planned either...it was a human reaction to the way we are trained and domesticated...<P>I hope that she is reading books and is making the effort for you...I am trying for my H...he just doesn't trust it...nor do I think he is as far along as you in his 'quest' for finding himself...he still has a certain amount of denial...<P>On the other hand, so do I...I still feel a certain amount of 'justification' as he let me be the responsible one and chaffed when I wanted him to be responsible...but now is angry because I had all the control...It wasn't ever something that I consciously wanted...I was just used to doing...getting things done...he was attracted to that...just like I was attracted to his 'free-spirit.'<P>About five years ago...I could have been the one in the A...I kept threatening to leave...he kept saying we stay and work it out...that is what marriage is about...but I was super unhappy...He did not(and to a certain extent, still does not) take financial responsibility, he did not take responsibility for household stuff...not even the lawn stuff...I had to ASK him to do everything...Yeah, I was his 'mom.' AND I HATED IT! But, I got to a certain point, read some stuff and 'MADE' myself understand that what I was frustrated with were the same things that attracted me to him in the first place...so I shook my desire to leave off and I withdrew...<P>Why no A? Because I had such a low self-esteem about my own attractiveness that I WOULD HAVE NEVER felt that anyone would want a 30 something, plump, had three caesareans body...I FELT STUCK!<P>So, when I found out about my H's A...I felt betrayal like I had never felt before...this man...the ONLY man I had ever been with...did what he promised OVER AND OVER AND OVER, every year of our marriage, that HE COULD NEVER DO...<P>why did he say he did it? because I didn't listen to him...I didn't agree with his opinions...I had all the control...he didn't want to be around me anymore...he never wanted to be married in the first place...he never wanted children...he was dead inside...I didn't admire him...I didn't respect him...<P>GUESS WHAT? I could have said the same things about him...He didn't listen to me...He didn't respect my opinions...He passively/aggressively 'had control'...I escaped to my room to read romances at night...I was tired of handling all the children stuff on my own...I wondered why I had married...I didn't feel admired as a wife...as a mother...I felt used...taken for granted...dead inside...<P>My H escaped into an A...I escaped into myself and books...IMPASSE...<P>I think there is a point in here somewhere...that each of us has a certain amount of weakness...that no one person bears the responsibility for the condition of the marriage or relationship...<P>Unfortunately you can't take this stuff we learn and distill it into a liquid and put it into an IV into the veins of those that need it...<P>Everyone has to come to their growth process in their own way and in their own time...there's the rub...<P><BR>Peace,<BR>Cali<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 05:35 AM
twyla, your keeping long hours it seems,<P>I really wish it was something other than being completely beaten into the ground.<P>my wife is an increadibly strong woman, too strong for a woman. she began almost from the moment we met to challenge me on all kind of things, she would challenge me on how to care for my car, if i was lifting heavy enough, things she couldnt even comprehend, and i responded with strength and resolve, then as time went along it became clear to me that my wife wanted control, she like being in charge, so in my ignorance i began to allow her to be right no matter what, no matter the challenge it goes her way, and with each challenge she got stronger. and i gave a little more of myself away.<P>fast forward 10 years she is still challenging me, how i drive, what underware i should wear, how i breath air, i am a shell of a man, unable to even speak loudly enough for the girl at taco bell to hear me. <P>she had my balls, there was no man left, she ruled supreme, my relative had stopped visiting beause they said it was painful for them to see how she treated me, and in my ingnorance i still just thought i was doing what she wanted me to do. still promoting the giving up of myself to please her.<P>we had sex less than 3 times a year, even went 2 years with no sex at all. there was no affection, that might lead to sex you see. i had no control of our finances, like ive said, i really wanst allowed to buy a cup of coffee in the morning. <P>i was powerless, dead inside. i had no will no ability to make decision no base from which to have influence on my wife. she had all of me.<P>
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 05:56 AM
cali, twyla, cont.<P>I was the incovienence that came with the paycheck, she didnt want to be married to me, she wanted the money the house and the security that came from that. I didnt matter. or so i thought.<P>on d-day i had for the first time in probably our entire marriage the freedom to speak freely, what could i possibly say then that could be worse than what i had done? <P>and i let i fly i had been doing plan A for the last 6 months with my wife, trying desperatly to see if there was a marriage to even try and save, i was still very convinced that there wasnt, that she would sieze this moment to simply dismiss me.<P>she didnt, and i was shocked, how could someone be so cruel to a human being and love them? i asked her, she asked me. well... no good answers.<P>ive come to believe that we both actually had the most honorable intentions in our marriage, i trying to do no wrong and give her what she wanted, and her in her way challenging me to be a man over and over again. you see i am at least for now choosing to believe that when she was challenging me, she was actually not looking to take my strengh, she wanted desperately for me to stand up and be a man, and i simply gave in. me thinking thats what she wanted her not knowing how to end the cycle.<P>challenge after challenge, she worked hard at it, enough for me to have grown to hate her for it. had i only seen that they were each in of themselves and opportunity for me to gain strength not lose it. a chance for her to respect my manhood, my decisions. my strength.<BR> <BR>how could we have gone so wrong with such good intentions.<P>i dont know i just dont have those answers. <P>the difficulty now is how after being so subservient for so long do i change the image that is etched into her mind of me as weak and Pathetic (a word she used often with stinging effectiveness).<P>how do i possibly appear as strong and masculine to her now?<P>how do i find a way to generate desire for me as a man, husband and lover.<P>all that and an immore act by a weak man...<P>i am frustrated by the progress, i am the only one in counseling, the only one studying, and the only one here practicing my plan a applying the hnhn concepts.<P>and i feel very alone, still very very little affection and SF sigh, well there wont be another issue of weakness in my life, the question is, will there be a marriage.<P>she has to step to the plate eventually, as she isnt makeing deposits, and her account is begining to run low.
Posted By: *Cali* Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 06:16 AM
I sit here thinking Thank God that I NEVER actually said to my H that he was weak or pathetic...God, that anyone should ever say those words to someone...I am so sorry...<P>But, it is false pride...because I alluded to it...I told my friends and co-workers of my frustrations...I let everyone know how unhappy I was when he DIDN'T DO SOMETHING...<P>I might never have said the actual words...but what I said and how I said it left no doubt what I felt...and like your wife it was a desperate attempt to get him to 'step up to the plate...'<P>Instead of just enjoying each other's gifts...enjoying each other's company...loving each other...<P>You walk down that aisle and boom...expectations set in...and my H is wired to believe that he can NEVER meet anyone's expectations...that he is doomed to fail...so he does...<P>I am wired to take charge...take over...take care...SURVIVE...so I do...<P>The key is radical honesty...when I have been COMPLETELY honest with my H...and he has been COMPLETELY honest with me...when he has REVEALED to me and I to him...there is such a POWERFUL connection...<P>I used to think that I was completely ME with him and HE with me...but that is not true...both of us held back an essential part of ourselves...a teeny-tiny piece that holds the key to our relationship...because we were afraid of being hurt...<P>But the end result is that we hurt ourselves by holding back...keeping our fears and anxieties from each other...NOT being COMPETELY ourselves...NOT saying EVERYTHING necessary...<P>Well, they say that hindsight is 20/20...<P>Peace,<BR>Cali
Posted By: lupolady Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 09:31 AM
<B>I sit here thinking Thank God that I NEVER actually said to my H that he was weak or pathetic...God, that anyone should ever say those words to someone...I am so sorry...<P>I might never have said the actual words...but what I said and how I said it left no doubt what I felt...and like your wife it was a desperate attempt to get him to 'step up to the plate...'</B><P>Yes, I treated my H this same way. Lord, Chaz, I'm so sorry to hear about how you were treated. As I began reading your thread, I thought I had treated my H the exact same way you were describing. BUT, I never used those words, I never said "pathetic, weak, " etc. I guess he must have THOUGHT them, tho. I was convinced it was MY strength that he needed, that he leaned on. Apparently, I was TOO strong. As you said, I "had his balls," and he didn't have any. I wouldn't let him. <P><B>Instead of just enjoying each other's gifts...enjoying each other's company...loving each other...<BR>I am wired to take charge...take over...take care...SURVIVE<BR></B><P>Cali, EXACTLY!! I'm right where you are. With a H who believes, truly believes who he is is a man who CANNOT do good, who cannot succeed, or be happy. He's NOT ALLOWED to, his family always put him down. I wasn't as bad as they, but who did he run to? HIS FAMILY! And now brings OW around to them. Yuck.<P>I guess I wanted to ask a question this morning: Chaz, if it was this bad in your M, WHY did you come back to try to "fix" it? Not desparaging you at all, just wondering, if you felt this weak, and A gave you strength, but you saw that your M was where the feelings of weakness came from, what would make you go back to that? Were there promises made from your W that things would be different? Did you just feel that YOU could make the difference? It doesn't sound like she has done anything to help you... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>I will pray she wakes up and begins to treat you with the respect you deserve. WE ALL here appreciate you, and your strengths, and your wisdom gained at so high a price.<P>Thank you.<BR>Lupo<BR>
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B><BR>but a question I Was asked by my wife no less along with many more alone the way is, If things were that bad, why not leave before you had an Affair?<P>the question seems almost rediculous to me now, because you see its the same reason i had the A.<P>I WAS TOO WEAK A MAN<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>sheesh, this is a refreshing change around here! A real man who doesn't speak in forked tongue! No convoluted, tortured Clintonesque excuses, no attempts to indict everyone else [well, everyone "could" do it if the circumstances were right, therefore, everyone is as guilty as me] Just..........simple HONESTY! <P>Thanks for giving us the REAL story from the other side, chaz, I really admire and respect your strength and honesty and your ability to step up to the plate. It's very helpful to me to hear the true story from the other side.
Posted By: Orchid Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 01:38 PM
Hi Chaz,<P>You know I always find your posts thought provoking. I guess A's can start with all sorts of personalities. <P>Yet what I am respecting in you is the ability to see your true self and even more be able to discuss it. Are you a weak man? No, you are a man, yes a man who has been confused by his wife. Oh, I am not defending either of you at this point. <P>You see, I am similar to your wife. Now before all of you throw me in the corner and turn on those torches, please hear me out. I am married to a nice and good man who is as you say weak. His self esteem is very low and he has internal issues to deal with that happened way before we even met. He openly talked about this when we first were married, he said he wanted a wife that could truly be his helper, mate and companion. Somewhere along the way, prioriites got mixed up. There was so much to help, I concentrated on what I thought was the most important priority, helping him and neglected being his companion. The mate piece is legal for the most part and so now even that is in question. The point is that I too tried very hard to build my H's self-esteem. Used all the normal methods employed by many over the years. But my nice man is also a stubborn man. Instead of us working together, he found it safer for himself to fight with me. I did not know how to deal with this and kept trying to help. This lead to a vicious cycle that has led up to our time now. Except now, I am learning to be aware of this. <P>So I too have been accused of being too controlling. Yet that is the last thing I want to do. I want to be the helper that gives my H the strength and support he needs to survive and make a good name for himself. Yes, I want to be his companion. I regret the choice he made to seek companionship elsewhere. It angers me right now and I feel that I at this time can no longer be that companion or helper. <P>Is that how your wife is feeling? Is she withdrawing into herself to now protect herself from you? Because that is how I feel. <P>There needs to be an understanding on both sides. Chaz, you have made great strides to improve your marriage but all your good efforts will not be as valuable unless both of you have the same values. <P>Here is a women's point of view, if I may. ... take your wife by the hand, hold both her hands in yours and gently tell her how much you appreciate her need to want everything to be perfect but since you both are not perfect, it just creates an endless cycle of unfulfilled obligations and dampens the love between the both of you. Tell her you want her you need to have the both of you love each other for your personal strengths and weaknesses together and be there for each other. Be each others, helper, mate and companion. Then all the little incidentals in life will take their normal place. If the towel is not hung up just so, it will be ok, if the clothes don't always make it into the hamper, its ok. Now mind you this does not give you carte blanche on being messy or irritiating, neither does it give her perfectionist squatters rights either. So see if she will compromise. <P>Let her read this post, I will be sharing this one with my H, why? Because I do love him. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>
Posted By: Faith1 Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 02:21 PM
wow, what a thread.... I just want to say this hits a little close to home for me too.... thanks for starting it, chaz. I always learn so much from hearing your thoughts.<P>I'll be back later after I read and think. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]
Posted By: she Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 02:28 PM
chaz, I am sorry! I can only say that your W probably never meant to hurt you. I know it may sound lame but this is complex things we're dealing with here.<P>I can relate to what you all been saying here... <P>Cali, <P><B>"Instead of just enjoying each other's gifts...enjoying each other's company...loving each other...<BR>I am wired to take charge...take over...take care...SURVIVE"</B><P><BR>This is me. I am so in control, always, but now... <P>I learned from this.<P>-she-<P>
Posted By: Myownme Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 02:54 PM
The more I read here, the more I begin to understand myself and it's REALLY scary! Yesterday I posted about how I thought that in my marriage, my H had been looking for a mother figure, as his mother was AWFUL to her kids. I also posted that my H has figured out recently that he is his father all over again. When I began reading this post, it occurred to me that the mothering in our marriage has possibly come from my need to CONTROL everything. You see, when I was growing up, I saw how my own mother had NO CONTROL in our house. She was very weak and deferred ALWAYS to my father for any decisions. I was constantly telling my H over the years what was best for him. I paid all the bills, to the point that when my H moved out, he confided in me that he would check his bills every night to remember when they had to be paid. I can't believe what I've done to him over the years. And then, after all of that, I expected him to admire me, to honor me, to want to be affectionate with me. When my H left, he said it was because my anger had gotten out of control. I claimed to have gotten so angry because my H never honored, respected, or appreciated me. Well which kid appreciates his mom telling him what to do and how to do it all the time? My anger actually turned to verbal abuse of my H and my kids. When he left, I took a good look at that, and have been in counseling to change that about me. I think I'm making great progress (in that area). My point is that reading what others have felt/gone through in their marriages, I am finding out so many more ugly things about what I did to my H during our marriage. I guess I should say thanks, but it's really scary finding out that I have so much further to go! I really with my H would take enough of an interest in our marriage to come here and read...
Posted By: mon Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 02:55 PM
Chaz,<P>I am the BS. One of my biggest guestions is why he did not have enough respect for me to leave. He told how wonderful she was and that she made him feel so alive. He told me two days after dday he did not love me and thought he never did. I have asked him and have not got straight answer. I feel like such a fool some times. He found his soulmate. He found true love. Is he just using me? If he found love that great why stay with me? The funny thing is she was cheating on him and her husband but that is beside the point. I just do not understand. He did not understand that i was dying inside also. Maybe you can inlighten me on this situation. I see how they are soulmates. Both them are lying, cheating, back stabbing a**wholes. Yes, I did call him patheic. I did not mean it in a bad way. I cried when or baby was born. The thought having a baby and him not in love with me is was so inbearable. <P>
Posted By: Faith1 Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 03:08 PM
chaz,<BR>I am also considering showing this to my H. I'm not sure though. Every effort I make right now appears like more attempts at "controlling" to him.<P>Have you told her what you've told us here (everything) on this thread? Can you show this to her? I know you've told her how you feel, much like my H has probably "told" me on d-day and ever since... but you obviously have a desire to make your marriage work. you have a desire to give your wife another chance... but your marriage won't work unless she makes some changes. You can't carry it. And you can't live like that.<P>I would give ANYTHING for my H to give me another chance. I'm here learning and growing. I have always read and learned about relationship and marriage principles. If I hadn't, we wouldn't have lasted 7 years, and I would be more like your wife. But because of the efforts I made, I don't think I was a terrible wife. I never knew the seriousness of how he felt. I know now. And I want to chance to be the wife he needs and wants.<P>Our relationship was very much like Cali desribes. But I thought it worked for both of us. He was irresponsible and childish - but that is what attracted me to him - and vice versa - my responsibility and logic.... I thought it worked. He seemed happy. We talked about it lots of times, and we thought we completed each other. He provided all the romance and fun... I took care of the details and business. Now, a taste of something different for him, and he things everything was wrong.<P>Show your w you need her. You appreciate all she's done for you. She's done a lot for you over the years, right? Appreciate those things. My H says HE did all the work - there's plenty that I gave - I wish he would appreciate me for that. I'm trying to show him I appreciate him and his giving. (I thought I did this anyway - but I'm learning how to do it better [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] ) Show her this thread and explain your desires and concerns. <P>You asked how to appear strong and masculine, and generate desire.... I wonder if appreciating her for her strength and logic will help. Also, I admire and respect my H the most when he stands up for what he believes in - God, country, family, morals. And when he builds me up and tells me my good qualities. When he is responsble and follows through with what he says he's going to do - small or big. <P>"Did you drop off that bill today? No." I lose respect and desire for him.<P>"I took care of those bills today." ooohhhhh,,,,, admiration and desire flows throughout my body and soul... <P>Just a couple of thoughts.... this is some serious stuff here, and I sure don't have the answers... I wish I did.
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lupolady:<BR><B>I guess I wanted to ask a question this morning: Chaz, if it was this bad in your M, WHY did you come back to try to "fix" it?</B><P>Because it was the Right thing to do. and, i have 2 wonderful children. no matter what happened to the marriage, i was going to be a bigger and better part of thier lives.<P><B>Not desparaging you at all, just wondering, if you felt this weak, and A gave you strength, but you saw that your M was where the feelings of weakness came from, what would make you go back to that? </B><P>dispite my poor decisions i do have character, and when i was strong enough, i did see the wrong in what i was doing. and i felt compelled to do it right.<P><B>Were there promises made from your W that things would be different?</B><P>that she didnt immediatly seek to divorce me was a kind of acknowledgement of her sense of responsibility. <P>and there was a brief time after d-day where i was in a position to basically speak my truth, and be stong, you see there was no risk, i had already done the worst thing i could have ever done. and in that time she came to understand the damage caused by the behaivior, she didnt promise to change it, that was up to me. <P><B>Did you just feel that YOU could make the difference? It doesn't sound like she has done anything to help you... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]</B><P>it has been a very difficult year, i almost left her on xmas eve, her inaction and unwillingness to "Try" up to that point had pushed me to the very brink of calling the marriage over.<P>while she has not initiated any changes, she has been while combative at times working with the changes i have been making. <P>you see as i gain power and control in our relationship, it required that she relinquish it. for it to go from 100% her in control, to even a 50-50 split is a huge movement in terms of being in control. she used language like "how come i am the one who has to give up control?" the answer was obvious but uncomfortable, because she was the only one who had it. <P>so while it is not accurate to say that she has done nothing, it is still pretty accurate to say that she doesnt seek to meet my needs with any commitment or purpose.<P><B>I will pray she wakes up and begins to treat you with the respect you deserve. WE ALL here appreciate you, and your strengths, and your wisdom gained at so high a price.</B><P>thank you.<P><B>Thank you.<BR>Lupo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR><B>You know I always find your posts thought provoking. I guess A's can start with all sorts of personalities. </B><P>Now theres a point many WS's try to make and get completely slammed for. thanks for the acknowledgement.<P><B>Yet what I am respecting in you is the ability to see your true self and even more be able to discuss it. Are you a weak man? No, you are a man, yes a man who has been confused by his wife. Oh, I am not defending either of you at this point.</B><P>I dont think its a matter of defending either of us, its all about how to break the cycle, i choose to believe that her intention all along were good, if i believed that she intentionally capitalized on the situation id have left long ago. <P>my biggest concern is that i know that it is unhealthy for me emotionally to be alone, to feel unloved, and i am married to a woman who didnt have a man worth admiring for a very long time, is it possible to having seen me in such a subservient way for so long to restore desire for me as her lover and spouse.<P><B>Instead of us working together, he found it safer for himself to fight with me. I did not know how to deal with this and kept trying to help. This lead to a vicious cycle that has led up to our time now. Except now, I am learning to be aware of this.</B><P>I can only imagine how difficult it is to not be in control when a. you need to be, and b. you have to give it up to someone who is inexperianced at having it. <P>believe me i appreciate how difficult that has to be, but i can assure you unless you allow it, it simply wont happen.<P><B>I regret the choice he made to seek companionship elsewhere. It angers me right now and I feel that I at this time can no longer be that companion or helper.</B><P>I am very sorry that is how you feel, I understand why you feel that way, and i wouldnt blame my wife for having those feeling. It would bring me great sorrow as i am very much in love with her, and am now in a much better postition to be a good husband then ever before.<P><B>Is that how your wife is feeling? Is she withdrawing into herself to now protect herself from you? Because that is how I feel. </B><P>I cant honestly answer your question, discussion about our relationship to her is a big LB. I speculate that she is being thrust into a shared control environment whether she likes it or not, and that she is trying very hard to re-invent herself so as to not lose who she is. because its no longer possible to be who she was. <P>it remains to be seen if as she goes through this transition whether she can find it a part of her to be a loving and caring wife, she is so solitare and distant, only brief glimpses of the softness and feminine woman i thought i had married.<P><B>There needs to be an understanding on both sides. Chaz, you have made great strides to improve your marriage but all your good efforts will not be as valuable unless both of you have the same values. </B><P>i am willing to (and have) expend tremendous amounts of energy to make this work, i do however have to protect my mental health, the contiuous rejection and feelings of being alone will eventually take their toll, and when i feel myself sinking uncontrollably i will likely seek a radical change in my life.<P><B>Here is a women's point of view, if I may. ... take your wife by the hand, hold both her hands in yours and gently tell her how much you appreciate her need to want everything to be perfect but since you both are not perfect, it just creates an endless cycle of unfulfilled obligations and dampens the love between the both of you. Tell her you want her you need to have the both of you love each other for your personal strengths and weaknesses together and be there for each other. Be each others, helper, mate and companion. Then all the little incidentals in life will take their normal place. If the towel is not hung up just so, it will be ok, if the clothes don't always make it into the hamper, its ok. Now mind you this does not give you carte blanche on being messy or irritiating, neither does it give her perfectionist squatters rights either. So see if she will compromise. </B><P>i have this message looped on a tape recorder and play it at night so it is delivered subliminally each night. <P>seriosuly this is the message, I am trying so very hard to compassionatly deliver, its been a very difficult road with little reward on the marriage front. it has been susbstantially benificial personally however.<P><B>Let her read this post, I will be sharing this one with my H, why? Because I do love him. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.</B><P>I hope he finds your willingness to evaluate your end in all of this as valuable as i would. <P>thanks for your comments L.<P>chaz<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by she:<BR><B>chaz, I am sorry! I can only say that your W probably never meant to hurt you. </B><P>I am choosing to believe that too.<P><B>This is me. I am so in control, always, but now... <P>I learned from this.</B><P>that is comforting, its a difficult thing to recount, and makes me question whether thing will ever be good between us.<P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Myownme:<BR><B>The more I read here, the more I begin to understand myself and it's REALLY scary!</B><P>Welcome to the club! <P><B>Yesterday I posted about how I thought that in my marriage, my H had been looking for a mother figure, I can't believe what I've done to him over the years. And then, after all of that, I expected him to admire me, to honor me, to want to be affectionate with me.</B><P>too, for? thats where i have to choose to forgive and assume that her actions were not intentional, that she was doing what she believed was neccessary or required, as distructive as it was for me, i believe, i have to believe it was not intentionally distructive but out of love.<P><B>When he left, I took a good look at that, and have been in counseling to change that about me. I think I'm making great progress (in that area). My point is that reading what others have felt/gone through in their marriages, I am finding out so many more ugly things about what I did to my H during our marriage. I guess I should say thanks, but it's really scary finding out that I have so much further to go!</B><P>i am sorry it took him leaving to come to that realization.<P><B>I really with my H would take enough of an interest in our marriage to come here and read...</B><P>you your H me my W, what to do?<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mon:<BR><B>Chaz,<P>I am the BS. One of my biggest guestions is why he did not have enough respect for me to leave.</B><P>thats actually an obvious answer,<P>he had no respect for himself. without that he has no basis for respect for you. <P>did you respect him? did you show him in your everyday life what it looked like to have respect for another? <P>i ask because in my life that simply didnt exist. you may have, yet you asked that question in this thread so i wonder.<P><B>He told how wonderful she was and that she made him feel so alive. He told me two days after dday he did not love me and thought he never did.</B><P>this is typical from what i have seen, if you buy what harley say's, you must understand that your love bank account with him is deep in the red. and now it sounds as if his with you is falling into the same category.<P><B> I have asked him and have not got straight answer. I feel like such a fool some times. He found his soulmate. He found true love.</B><P>again? you were that too right? what changed, how did life change after the wedding?<P><B>Is he just using me? </B><P>its more likely he is clinging desperately to the hope that you want to be his soulmate and are willing to do what it takes for that to be. <P><B>If he found love that great why stay with me?</B> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>because he wants you to be his love? your better!<P><B>The funny thing is she was cheating on him and her husband but that is beside the point. I just do not understand.</B><P>LB ALERT!!! keep that to yourself!!!<P><B>He did not understand that i was dying inside also.</B><P>Why not? didnt you tell him? its never as easy as people want to make it out is it?<P><B>Maybe you can inlighten me on this situation. I see how they are soulmates. Both them are lying, cheating, back stabbing a**wholes.</B><P>uhhh. well ok, i see that so why do you want him?<P><B> Yes, I did call him patheic. I did not mean it in a bad way.</B><P>please oh please tell me how to use such a awful word in a sentance that puts a positive spin on it. give me an example... your kidding right? <P><B>I cried when or baby was born. The thought having a baby and him not in love with me is was so inbearable.</B><P>I can only imagine how awful that is. I have tremendous sympathy for you, i dont exactly know what your choosing to do, work on the marriage? or not. your message here just seems like an expression of pain and anger. no real direction. whats the plan?<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Posted By: mon Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 08:31 PM
Chaz,<P>Thank you very much. I always had great respect for him. Even when he did stupid things, I always tried to incourange him. I never tried to controll him. Maybe, I was not controlling enough. I should have put my foot down when he started hanging with guy and was doing some real heavy drinking. I called him patheic because I was so tired of the situation. Apparently, they both would whine to each other about their spouses and other things. They both sounded patheic to me. I so sick and tired. So, I told to pack his **** and get. I told him to go live with that women so they could share their patheic lives together. That is how I saw their relationship. I do not know why maybe it the things he said. I know one thing that I was so hurt and had enough. I just could not deal with it any more. I do not if he knows about her and this other man. I think if he knew that I knew about this. He would say. You called her husband to tell him about us but you could not tell me. <P>Thank you<BR>
Posted By: schizzo Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 08:46 PM
chaz,<P>If you are truly listening, I have found some answers for myself that could help you too.<P>Imagine if the shoe were on the foot. After you have given all of you as you put it (very well), you found that your spouse had been cheating on you for almost two years, living a double life. After you gave all of yourself to her and the kids! And told you the main reason was that you were too weak, no fun, she was not in-love with you.<P>This was where I was when I started posting here in Nov. '99. I couldn't believe his cruelty: I had given and given and he had been living a lie.<P>I discovered that in always giving him what he wanted, I WAS NOT MEETING HIS REAL NEEDS. I learned that I had done my part in creating the vaccuum in our marriage.<P>I learned a big lesson from Dr. Phil McGraw - a real hard one to swallow and I'll pass it on to you. One of his "laws" is that we teach others how to treat us! I taught my h to treat me this way. I had betrayed myself far more than he had.<P>Think about it. It has made a world of difference to me. Today we work on POJA and I have learned and I mean it has to be LEARNED to stand up for myself.<P>I remember you posting before about childhood abuse. We were TRAINED by this to please others at all costs. We must retrain ourselves.<P>I've worked on this first for myself, secondly for my marriage. When it came right down to it, no one could help me to stand up for myself, I had to do it. I had to give myself the love and respect I needed first!
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>chaz,<P>If you are truly listening, I have found some answers for myself that could help you too.<P>Imagine if the shoe were on the foot. After you have given all of you as you put it (very well), you found that your spouse had been cheating on you for almost two years, living a double life. After you gave all of yourself to her and the kids! And told you the main reason was that you were too weak, no fun, she was not in-love with you.</B><P>imagine if who she was cheating with were your kids, thats how it felt, that i had given so completly and she had no feelings of desire or admiration an the reasons were the same!<P>I hear what your saying.<P><B>This was where I was when I started posting here in Nov. '99. I couldn't believe his cruelty: I had given and given and he had been living a lie.<P>I discovered that in always giving him what he wanted, I WAS NOT MEETING HIS REAL NEEDS. I learned that I had done my part in creating the vaccuum in our marriage.</B><P>same here, she wanted me to stand my ground be a man! sigh. <BR>i did it all wrong the entire time [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] funny she never mentioned it.<P><B>I learned a big lesson from Dr. Phil McGraw - a real hard one to swallow and I'll pass it on to you. One of his "laws" is that we teach others how to treat us! I taught my h to treat me this way. I had betrayed myself far more than he had.</B><P>its one thing to have mistreated yourself, it is quite another for someone to capitalize on that and abuse. where is the line? yea the needs may not have been met, but when your in control, you have power, and can satisfy oneself in many ways, when your not, what are your options?<P><B>Think about it. It has made a world of difference to me. Today we work on POJA and I have learned and I mean it has to be LEARNED to stand up for myself.</B><P>standing up for oneself is it, that is the piece that was missing, its the piece i am learning, it is supposedly the piece she has desired me to have. so in having it i am trying ever so hard to be patient and allow her to be loving and giving, attentive all the things i desire her to be, it remains to be seen whether she shall be.<P><B>I remember you posting before about childhood abuse. We were TRAINED by this to please others at all costs. We must retrain ourselves.<P>I've worked on this first for myself, secondly for my marriage. When it came right down to it, no one could help me to stand up for myself, I had to do it. I had to give myself the love and respect I needed first!</B><P>YES!! <P>now the questions are:<P>What does it mean to be married?<BR>What are reasonable expectations? <BR>Should i have to live my life being contstantly rejected, and feeling alone?<P>i guess that not what i envisioned marriage to be.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B><BR>One of his "laws" is that we teach others how to treat us! I taught my h to treat me this way. I had betrayed myself far more than he had.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Two questions:<P>If we "teach others" how to treat us, it would stand to reason that if we teach them to be good to us, they would be, right? We all know that this doesn't always happen, so how does one account for that?<P>If we "teach others" how to treat us, is that not manipulation in it's highest form?<P>Just a curious seeker tonight...<BR>
Posted By: Shazam Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 09:58 PM
Hey Chaz,<P>Your posts speaks volumes to my heart. My H and I also got into this cycle that you describe right before his affair. I think for many women in crisis we speak louder, take control, beg for action, and demand attention. I thought just before the affair if I could convey how hurt, angry and upset I was about being alone, he would willingly step up to the plate to help our marriage. But he didn't. He was far to weak at that point and our home was not a place of peace. <P>Peace and friendship was what the OW was offering. But I truly didn't know how to be a friend when chaos was running amuck in my home. Any energy and lightheartedness was depleted by the time he arrived at home. I was so depleated by the time the affair began, all I could say was that I loved him truly but I could not continue to live my life w/him in this manner. I said I didn't want a divorce but I saw few options for my happiness if this was the type of life he wanted to live. He claimed he didn't want to live his life like this, only a few more weeks of continuos work he said. But I had heard that phrase repeatedly throughout our marriage. See he was always strong and available for anyone but me.<P>So I screamed far too loud for him to ever hear my pain. So he sought to help a coworker who's marriage was going down the drain. He felt strong for her. He was able to help her pain. He believed she was a strong, independent woman who could live her life w/strength. Then what was she doing w/my husband and not fighting for her own marriage? Being weak. So while they were weak they gained strength from each other. <P>What have I learned? To stop trying to get my husband's attention. I am willing to meet each and every need he has. He just has to be available. We finally have reached a place of equilibrium. That's what I call it. Where we both are seeking each other. The scales are balanced. I have learned to strengthen myself by retreating much more than I used to. I was always way too available. He could have me at anytime. Now, I live my own life, and if he wants interaction w/me, he'd better come and get it. Not to sound like were both selfish. But before the A, I felt I had to be available for him 24/7 or we'd never catch a moment together. I've learned to give him that responsiblity. And it works.<P>Right now your wife is in a period of withdrawl. She feels beaten into the corner. She doesn't trust you to reach this place of equilibrium in your relationship. She doesn't know you can be strong, and she doesn't have any strength to give. By your actions you have told her you despise her strength. Just be consistent. So many of the posts on this thread offer valid advice. Let her see you can be trusted as a strong, capable man. The last thing she wants is to come out of withdrawl and for your strength to vaporize.<P>My prayers are with you. I get a sense from your posts that you are fighting so hard. You are to be commended for that. Don't give up fighting. Only you know Chaz how long you can continue. At least give the fight two years. <P>Take care,<P>Shaz
Posted By: Twyla Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 10:25 PM
Hi Chaz,<BR>I always look like I'm on at a weird time because of the time change..Hawaiian time is like no other!<BR>This is a pretty good thread, and is actually mirroring SnL's current thread.<P>Nyneve, you're points about teaching are good, but like everything else...just cause someone's taught, doesn't mean they're gonna do.<BR>And, there is a difference between teaching and revealing information...stands to reason that any manipulation would come in the form of promises or threats after info is given.<BR>T<BR>
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 10:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shazam:<BR><B> I felt I had to be available for him 24/7 or we'd never catch a moment together. </B><P>OMG, this has been one of the more recent revelations in my life, i was choosing to not do anything for myself in order to be availible at any moment so that i could get some kind of attention. well that dosnt work for her, and obviously wasnt working for me. NEXT PLAN!<P><B>Right now your wife is in a period of withdrawl. She feels beaten into the corner. She doesn't trust you to reach this place of equilibrium in your relationship. She doesn't know you can be strong, and she doesn't have any strength to give. By your actions you have told her you despise her strength. Just be consistent. So many of the posts on this thread offer valid advice. Let her see you can be trusted as a strong, capable man. The last thing she wants is to come out of withdrawl and for your strength to vaporize.</B><P>With every ounce of my being!<P><B>My prayers are with you. I get a sense from your posts that you are fighting so hard. You are to be commended for that. Don't give up fighting. Only you know Chaz how long you can continue. At least give the fight two years. </B><P>feels as though the fight has already been going for 12, only ive been not getting the complete tar knocked out of me for the last one. well see how long i can sustain this come back! i hope for a long time. she does play an important role though.<P>thank you for your thoughts shaz<P><BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Posted By: KalGrl Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 10:38 PM
RE: Dr. Phil and you teach people how to treat you what that means is when you put up with abusive/bad behavour you are sending the message that it's okay for them to treat you that way and that you shouldn't be surprised when they continue to do so. The example in the book he uses is a woman who continually goes back to man who has abused her physically. She must take some responsibility for her continued abuse because she makes the choice to return to him.
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 10:41 PM
Okay Kalgirl, help me understand...<P>If the woman "taught" him to abuse her... is it reasonable to say that had she not "taught" him in the first place, he would not have done it???
Posted By: KalGrl Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 10:56 PM
LOL Buy the book! "Life Strategies". I don't have the book with me so I am doing this from memory. There is a whole chapter on this subject with much better explanation them I am giving.<P>But to answer your questionNo I don't think she could have taught him not to do it but she could have taught him that she would not put up with it. For me it's just a different take on the idea that you can't control or change someone you can only change/control your reaction to them. Setting boundaries is another way of looking at it.
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 10:59 PM
Actually Kalgirl, I have the workbook, but never bought the book. Can you believe that? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] It gives assignments based on chapters, so when it says, read ch. 5 and then answer, I can't. Guess I need to buy the darned thing, eh?<P>Thanks for your reply.
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>Actually Kalgirl, I have the workbook, but never bought the book. Can you believe that? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] It gives assignments based on chapters, so when it says, read ch. 5 and then answer, I can't. Guess I need to buy the darned thing, eh?<P>Thanks for your reply.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>hey N, look around under that rock, i think i left my copy of the book there [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <BR><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/23/01 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chazbutler:<BR><B> <BR>hey N, look around under that rock, i think i left my copy of the book there [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Pretty dark under here... but, w-what the... hey! I found my glasses!!! <P>I really do need to buy that book. The more I hear about it, the more I think I need it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>
Posted By: painforever Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 02:26 AM
Hi Chaz, <P>I left before the affair started, I left because it was getting so bad, I couldn’t take in anymore. Yeah, I felt dead inside. For a few years prior to my separation, I felt that my function in the marriage was as a provider and caretaker of the family. I would consider my W strong and she needed to be in control all the time. There were no intimacy between us, and if there was it would seem forced. The state of our marriage pushed me to leave, I went thousands of miles away on a job promotion and transfer, which I intentionally applied for. <P>What I should have done, instead of running away, was to confront my W. But you know what, I was weak too. And i was a coward. Thats my mistake. Quoting you “Too weak to stand up for myself in my own marriage, Too weak to scream loudly enough that i was dying inside”. Too weak to admit failure, defeat and rejection. I thought she didn’t love me either. I too felt that W thought of me as the inconvenience that came with the pay check! Real heart to heart communication never existed in my marriage. Only now, since Dday have we started to communicate. But for my marriage it’s a little too late.<P>Good luck to you!
Posted By: BINthereDUNthat Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 04:46 AM
Gosh Chaz,<BR>Your post broke mine and my husband's hearts when we read it together tonight. Consider yourself prayed for & hugged.<P>What came to my mind tho as I thought about your situation was that you have to stop seeing yourself as weak and dead inside where your marriage is concerned. A man is only going to perform to the extent that he sees himself within. Get a better faith picture of yourself, in other words--does that make sense??<P>See yourself as God sees you. God sees you as valuable and precious and He laid down His life for you when you were thoughtless and immoral (for me too, & for everybody)... So that means we are worth something to God--not because of what we do, but because of what HE did for us already.<P>God created man to have dominion. The problem is when men abdicate their responsibilities (to spiritually lead and guide their families), women seek independence. You said that you basically laid down and let your wife take over, and to the point where you had no voice, no control, no coffee in the morning???????? UGH! (then again, coffee is not .65 anymore--it's up to like, 4 bucks!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] ) kidding!<P>You gotta get your authority back because it is your God-given position--not because you are better than the woman God gave you, but because God has an order of things. Respect and authority comes from the way a man carries himself, not by him announcing all his great leadership qualities. How you carry yourself is based on how you talk to and see yourself. You've got to pick yourself up before you can carry yourself in such a way. If you can't do it, let God do it because He is our glory and the lifter of our heads...<P>Think about when Eve persuaded Adam to sin... God called Adam and held HIM accountable. That's when the blame game first started, but that is beside the point. YOU are more than what you think but you have to start seeing it. Whatever was in that rib that God removed from Adam when He created Eve, gave women the ability to adapt to men. We are great adapters and responders. If you (men) desire a more tender response from us, then give us something tender to respond to!! <P>The fact that you have taken steps to rebuild your marriage, by studying and reading and researching and counseling is FANTASTIC! We have to change in order to grow. We must. There is no getting around it. Either we change or we stifle ourselves and our relationships. As long as we are here on this earth, we have lessons to learn about life, about ourselves... Good thing that God gives us opportunities to keep taking the tests until we pass all of them.<P>Keep the faith and we want you to know that we prayed for you after reading your story. Our heartfelt good wishes are with you and your family for God to hold it together when you feel as if you're falling apart. Hang on! Don't give up on yourself! <3<3<3
Posted By: she Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 08:25 AM
chaz, this seems to be a thread that has brought out a lot of questions and thoughts. Thank you for giving me this insight.<P>I thought about the control thing again and came to a different conclusion this time. We have discussed what were the problems in our case before A and the answer I get is "our conflicts". My P is a conflict avoider and I am more of "shout and get it over with", but the thing is in our case no one did "win" or take control - THAT was the problem. We just shuffled everything under the carpet and didn't deal with the issues. The issues were the most common ones: finances, sex and household things. Classic and you can read about in every book! BUT still I know I want to be in control, I am used to this from childhood where a lot of responsibility where put on me early. I have this subconscious idea that the world will fall apart if I don't take control. But in our case no-one gave in, we stood head to head and wouldn't give in an inch... This is sometimes referred to as the "marriage dance"... I sure prefer to dance something totally different. <P>Since I am not even capable of setting my own diagnosis right I might very well be disqualified from giving advice but I will anyway... Take it or don't. <P>First of all, read the book Getting the love you want, Harville Hendrix.<P>Secondly, ask your friends, co-workers, or relatives what they really think of you. What type of person are you? Then ask yourself what are my strengths and weaknesses. What can I improve and what can I emphasize? I am so sure you will come up with very many positive traits and once you sort of see the weaknesses from a perspective you might decide you want to work on them, or accept yourself the way you are. <P>Good luck!<BR>-she-<BR>
Posted By: schizzo Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/24/01 09:04 PM
chaz,<P>Sorry I didn't make it back sooner.<P>Sounds like you are getting it. Making myself available 24/7 was part of it. I was giving him the message that my time was not valuable. He would not need to make an effort to spend time with me; I would always be ready to take the scraps that fell from his table...He would even get on his cell phone during the very rare date we would go on.<P>I had to retrain him. I would take my phone too and have a plan B should he decide to be rude to me. Go in separate cares if necessary. I got my point across!<P>Nyneve, I wasn't specifically talking about abusers; my h has never abused me. But if you want to take the point there - they are often the biggest cowards around. If you won't put up with it, they'll find someone else to pick on.<P>In my life, I'm talking more about everyday rudeness and the lovebuster he used to be so good at - disrespectful judgments. These days I EXPECT to be respected. Since I no longer live in fear of "the look" of disapproval, I also handle having my mistakes pointed out to me a lot better. I don't get defensive.<P>All the way around, things are sooo different at home. Case in point, this morning I burned his toast (mine too). He came in and laughed - you burned the toast? And hugged me from behind. The house has also been a mess since we just came back and the kids are home - and he was ok with it last night. He used to become very distant.<P>We teach others how to treat us subtly in all our encounters. If we say with our body language that we are not worth much respect, we usually won't get it.<P>I don't think it's manipulation at all.
Posted By: schizzo Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/25/01 01:48 PM
up in case chaz and nyneve didn't see my reply...
Posted By: Quiet_Goodbye Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/25/01 02:20 PM
Thanks for pulling this up, schizzo... yes, I had missed it.<P>I can't do a lengthy reply this morning (gonna be gone all weekend) but just stopped by for a quickie check-in. <P>I would love to discuss this with you further, however. I have been having a huge issue with abuse/boundaries/stepping away/loving -- and I wonder if that all goes together in a way you can understand, because my head gets all jumbled up with emotions (too often, I'm afraid).<P>Just last night I had a "David-moment" where I ended up in tears, he feels superior, I feel like crap -- AND WE'RE DIVORCED and it was OVER THE PHONE... see what he does to me still??? Drives me batty!!<P>Yeah, maybe I'd better crawl under that rock Chaz suggested and pick that book up. <P>I have the Life Strategies workbook, and even without the text it's excellent. Heck, I have every self help book imaginable... yet, I struggle with this issue.<P>I'll be back (in my best Arnold voice)<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>
Posted By: ohmy_marie Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/26/01 05:20 AM
Dearest Schizzo:<P>I understand exactly what you're saying...CRYSTAL CLEAR.<P>I can relate to every single thing that you've said. Except, in my own situation, I do believe that I was verbally abused in my marriage. WOW! It's hard to admit that...<P>...but I've read so many self-help books, so many inspirational type books, so many marriage books, so many personality-type books-- to realize that my H did have all the characteristics/traits of a "verbal abuser."<P>And, I know I've said this before, BUT FOR ME, HIS AFFAIR WAS THE VERY LAST STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK.<P>I do agree that I allowed my H to treat me like he did. I allowed him to continue with the abuse...because I didn't speak up for myself. Furthermore, I allowed him to make me second to work, sports, the kids, the neighbors, etc. I honestly thought that the more I allowed him to be *free* and do what he wanted to do, the more he'd love me...the more he'd see me as the "perfect" wife.<P>And for a long, long time I was content to be sixth, or seventh, on his list of "important people"...But, BY GOLLY, I was not willing to be second on his [censored] list.<P>I AM WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR! <P>Sometimes, I can see where my H's affair was good for me. IT WOKE ME UP...it brought me back to life. It set a fire under my [censored] that's still burning today...<P>...no one, but no one, will ever take advantage of me again.<P>I have risen from the ashes. I have claimed my LIFE BACK.<P>I am alive for the first time in many, many years...<P>...and I'm not taking any [censored], anymore. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>And, believe it or not, as strange and heartless as my post may have sounded, this has all been sound and good for my marriage.<P>Peace to us all, ~Marie<P>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20
Posted By: schizzo Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/26/01 05:50 AM
Marie,<P>You took the words right out of my mouth. I too thought I was doing the right thing letting him have what he wanted, until I ended up on the bottom of the list.<P>You don't sound cold-hearted. This new attitude has been healthy for me and my marriage as well!
Posted By: lifeismessy Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 08/31/01 01:15 PM
Chaz- I want to thank you for starting this thread. You offer a painfully honest viewpoint of how the WS thinks. It has been quite helpful for me as a BS to read your posts and how your thought process worked. I believe I did create an environment that led up to my H's A-though I truly only understand that now that I am in recovery. I can identify with what you say the problems were in your marriage that led up to your having an A. Please keep posting here! lifeismessy
Posted By: Leilana Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 09/02/01 08:25 AM
Marie and Schizzo,<P>As a fellow former doormat, I'm coming to realize, it's all about "balance".<P>Our spouses may have an extreme need for outside activities, but it's up to us to let them know of our needs as well--our need for our H's to strike a "balance" in their lives between their obligations to their marriage, their family, their responsibilities, their fun.<P>While we can't necessarily <I>control</I> how they go about choosing their itinerary for the day (that would be a bit "mothering" and manipulative), speaking up for our own needs and wishes IS within our control. <P>And Plan A'ing while we are doing so, goes along way to motivating "balance".<P>Were we all conflict avoiders before their A?<P>
Posted By: worthatry Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 09/02/01 11:41 AM
I've been following this thread and I guess I oughta express my thanks and admiration to chaz for spilling his guts.<P>What also prompted me to reply was the reply by painforever - apparently another WS who was walked on by their spouse.<P>Well, I can identify with this very well, but I became the BS. So, the "imbalance" thing works both ways. Not only did I give, give, give to a controlling wife, she ended up having the affair with her best friend's husband and wrecked two families.<P>So what did I do? I continued giving. Is this wrong? Does this mean I'm a weakling? Maybe. OM's wife did the exact opposite and took the attack, attack, attack route.<P>But now I'm strong. My wife is desperately still trying to control me now, but can't. OM's wife is still attacking and hasn't learned anything, apparently, except how to take advantage of divorce laws in our state.<P>So, how are "strength" and "weakness" defined? Was I really a weak doormat, or actually strong and compassionate to resist temptation and become the WS?<P>Thanks to all on this thread for the thoughts.<P>WAT
Posted By: cybil Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 09/02/01 01:28 PM
Wow what a thread chaz! Everytime I read one of your posts it enlightens me. You are by no means a weak man in my book. I see you as incredibly strong for being able to come here and share your experience and feelings with us trying to help others. I'm sorry for the way your wife treated you in the past. Sometimes we don't even realize that we are controlling because it has become a way of life for us. As in my case I had control of everything, the house, the finances, the kids, whatever it was I handled it and my H allowed me to do so. My H is a wonderful man caring, loving, good father, good provider only I was the one that didn't have time to meet his needs emotionally and sexually because I had my priorities wrong. Everything came before him. It was more important for me to vacuum then to spend a half an hour with him before he went to bed. I never thanked him for the things he did for me I only critized him about the things he didn't do. He has admitted to me that he was miserable and we were both unhappy and when I told him to leave that was his way out. I look back now and think everyday if only I would have realized what I was doing to our marriage then. Today I see things much differently. Trying to spend time with my H is my top priority. Even though we are separated I cherish every moment I have with him. I love my H with all my heart and I am trying to show him this but he says he is not use to me treating him like this and sees it only as a plan to get him back home. I have no motive here other than to try and save my marriage. I have not been a perfect wife and it did take the two of us to get to where our marriage is today. I pray every day that my H sees the new me for who I am. A woman who was not perfect in her love for her H, a woman who thought she had to be all to everyone or she would have failed someone. Who I really failed was the most important person in my life my H. I cannot go back and change anything in our past I can only move forward and focus on my future and the future of my marriage. Thank you chaz for being the man that you are and for helping us see things from a different point of view.<BR>cybil
Posted By: Mikkey Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 09/02/01 09:02 PM
JustPlainCali<BR> Your story sounds justlike mine. I withdrew because I couldn't take the bossiness, the lecturing, the fighting. It was easier not to deal with it. I wish he'd have said something sooner. Wake up call "If you don't lose weight within 8 months I'm divorcing you". There was no discussion. I had tried losing weight many times before but because I felt I had no postive feedback in any other area of my life, that my life was worthles.. My kids are the only thing keeping me sane. HELLO---Now I realize I do love him alot, and am not ready to just give him up. I will learn to make my needs known. This has been quite a catalyst. I can't imagine the damage this is going to do to my kids if we do get divorced. I have told WH though that if he cannot start being honest with me there is no point. Yesterday I realized my own biggest fear was one of abandonment. I would never marry anybody else anyway, but would be lost until the end of my life because I feel when we started out that a commitment was a commitment. Once before a counselor asked me when I was going for depression councelling, why if I was so unhappy -even with s*x , why not have an affair...I looked at her in shock and said "do you think I would think it would be worth 2-10 minutes of hot great s*x to ruin the lives of my kids and husband? The price isn't worth it to me. She thought I had great insight at the time. I wish my WH had the same. I have quite surprised myself though (albeit I've had a little help with the xanax) that I havent' screamed to him what a slut she is, da, da, da....I haven't let that anger out and don't see the point of it, except in ventilating to a friend who has been in a similar situation. <BR> I am afraid though, that in the future, every time we have an argument, that he'll threaten to leave. Is that what happens? Will I always feel so unsecure? I never had this insecurity before this revelation and it scares the hell out of me.<BR>Mikkey<P>GUESS WHAT? I could have said the same things about him...He didn't listen to me...He didn't respect my opinions...He passively/aggressively 'had control'...I escaped to my room to read romances at night...I was tired of handling all the children stuff on my own...I wondered why I had married...I didn't feel admired as a wife...as a mother...I felt used...taken for granted...dead inside...<P>My H escaped into an A...I escaped into myself and books...IMPASSE...<P>I think there is a point in here somewhere...that each of us has a certain amount of weakness...that no one person bears the responsibility for the condition of the marriage or relationship...<P>Unfortunately you can't take this stuff we learn and distill it into a liquid and put it into an IV into the veins of those that need it...<P>Everyone has to come to their growth process in their own way and in their own time...there's the rub...<P><BR>Peace,<BR>Cali<P><BR>[/B][/QUOTE]<P>
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 12/30/02 08:03 AM
ladylou you asked why the ws just doesnt leave in another post, this is an old post of mine where i tackled that question. please read it all there was value in it for me, i hope there is for you as well.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 12/30/02 04:04 PM
Thank you Chaz

This thread has been very helpful to me on a personal level.

Your self-examination is really an awesome read.

Pepper
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 12/30/02 04:11 PM
Chaz ... my H said this to me awhile back:

"Happy people don't have affairs."

Do you agree?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 12/30/02 04:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Chaz ... my H said this to me awhile back:

"Happy people don't have affairs."

Do you agree?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">not exactly,

more like Happy unhealthy people dont have affairs.

an emotionally mature and healthy person can be unhappy and still make good decisions, its the lack of emotional maturity and health that makes that statement true.

but in that sence it is true. the mission has to be more than to have your needs met so that your happy. while its true that would make me happy and when happy its not likely that I would be suseptible to allowing others to meet those needs, I think it was my lack of internal ability to create happiness that made me utterly dependant on other for it.

its the difference between being unhappy with my marriage, and being unhappy with my life. if I am unhappy with my marriage, i can deal with my wife on an adult level, negotiate and make decisions about what will happen, that may include leaving if its that bad. If I am unhappy with my life, then I see the world and especailly my wife as defeating and possibly as the cause of my sorrow.

so there is truth in what he said, but it is an unhealthy view that makes it true.

and it is exactly why people can ask WHY didnt you just leave, or why didnt you say etc.... because they dont understand the inability. its like asking a child why didnt you just tie your shoes before they fell... its simple... they dont know how...
Posted By: *Cali* Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 12/30/02 08:00 PM
Wow... this thread brought back some memories...

...but it got me to thinking about the other side of the coin...

"Why did it take the affair for the BS to change?"

My H asked me this... and I would have to say that my answer would be similar to the one you have written...

I was too unhappy... too weak... etc.

Hope you had a nice holiday...

Cali
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 12/31/02 07:05 AM
lady lou i bumpped this up for you earlier when i saw your question about why not leave or get divorced. found it on page 2 so up it goes, please read from the front this was very helpful for me thought you might find some compassion here
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 01/07/03 06:34 AM
bumped up during the holiday missed comments from many.
Posted By: Mulan Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 01/06/03 07:46 PM
<<<"Happy people don't have affairs."
Do you agree?>>>

No.
Egocentric people who think they'll never get caught have affairs.
Posted By: chazbutler Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 09/12/03 06:16 AM
I just needed to read this again times are tough feeling very very alone and tired just needed to remind myself of some hard learned lessons

hope all is well on the boards ive not lurked or posted in a long time, maybe I need too...
Posted By: Orchid Re: Why not LEAVE before? - 09/12/03 08:03 AM
Hi CB,

Long time no see!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Please let us know how you are doing.

L.
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