What do you think???--Using Spiritual Principles to Solve Real Problems

Marriage Builders

This is from Susan Page's new book: "If We're So In Love, Why Aren't We Happy." I read it to H this morning.Old Model vs. Spiritual Partnership 1. In the old model you make progress by talking things through together. In the Spiritual Partnership you make progress by choosing spiritual actions--by yourself .2. In the old model your goal is to solve your problems. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is to outgrow problems by achieving a new level of consciousness. 3. In the old model the goal is to improve the relationship, to move from dysfunctional to functional to thriving. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is for each partner to grow spiritually. 4. In the old model you strive to fulfill the old rules: equality and fairness. In SP you strive by yourself to acheive a balance between your own needs and those of your partner. 5. In the old model you solve problems by encouraging yur partner to change. In SP you encourage yourself to change. 6. In the old model you focus on the differences between you. You ask, "How can we fix what's wrong." In SP you look for commonality, oneness, unity. You ask, "How are we both part of the human experience? How are we the same?"7. In the old model you rely on the mind. You figure things out, come up with strategies, make decisions, stay in control; you create a lot of noise in your head. In SP you quiet the mind. You rely on inner wisdom from your body. You stop trying to figure things out and change them, and instead you pay attention to what is.8. In the old model your continuing search for improvement keeps you in a state of discontent; you believe you can do better. In SP the state of discontent is the problem. You begin with acceptance. 9. In the old model change is slow and incremental. Old habits die hard. Progress is gradual. In SP an inner shift may create "miraculous" change in one moment. You experience quantum leaps. "I was blind, but now I see." 10. In the old model there are limits on how happy two people can be together over many years. In SP the joy of connection is unlimited. 11. In the old model relationships are hard work. In SP spiritual growth is hard work; relationships are a pleasure. 12. In the old model you believe that you have to be married to the right person. In SP you know that more important than having the right partner is being the right partner. 13. In the old model, if you want more from your partner, you must learn to ask for what you want. In SP, if you want more, give more. 14. In the old model it is impossible to work on the relationship or make any progress unless both partners are willing to talk. In SP one partner on a spiritual journey can create significant changes in a relationship, by choose unilateral spiritual actions, by offering spiritual leadership, often without saying a word. 15. In the old model you approach problems by asking, "Who's right and who's wrong?" "Who needs to change?" In SP being right doesn't matter. You approach problems by asking, "No matter who is right, what can I do to make a difference?" I want to gather your thoughts on these things... then I will post the 5 Principles/Sacred Acts... and gather further info... So what do you think???Cali[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Cali:
Old Model vs. Spiritual Partnership <hr></blockquote>
Cali,
I am having a little problem with some of this stuff.Some of it sounds good enough, BUT - some of it almost sounds like, hmmm, "mysticism" - kinda "new age-y"? Know what I mean?Example:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr>
In the old model your goal is to solve your problems. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is to outgrow problems by achieving a new level of consciousness. <hr></blockquote>
"New level of consciousness???"
Doesn't sound like "trust in God" to me!! More like - "Let yourself go.....and the powers of the universe will heal you........" <blockquote>quote:<hr>In the old model you rely on the mind.... In SP you quiet the mind. You rely on inner wisdom from your body. You stop trying to figure things out and change them, and instead you pay attention to what is.<hr></blockquote>
Hmmmmm.....here it is again......"inner wisdom from your body...."pay attention to what is...."Sorry, I read through this and a lot of it sounds really GOOD, but these couple of things struck me wrong.......I know I probably shouldn't be throwing out the baby with the bath water.....It sounds like it's got a lot of sage wisdom in it. I don't know Susan Page....I don't know where she is on the whole "trust in God" first and foremost, for instance. Maybe you can enlighten me?FWIW, that's what my first thoughts were about these quotes.Sorry to be such a "downer" on this thread. Please feel free to IGNORE me, if you want! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] God Bless,

Lupo... I got this book because the review said she was a Protestant minister.which is true... for the most part... as I have kept reading the book, she has explored 'other' religions and writes of them...... she doesn't advocate any particular religion... but says that these principles and sacred acts of loving can fit within all religions...While writing the book, she examined the 'commonalities' among religions with regards to relationships and marriages......so, in the end, I believe it was written this way in order to encompass as many people as possible... not necessarily as new agey or mysticism... She uses "Spiritual" Partnership so as to not offend anyone... and because it defines what she believes is the next step in marriages...Don't dismiss 'cause of the new age thing... remember this is just a portion of the book... out of context is everything...It is mostly about treating one's spouse w/ goodwill and kindness PLUS taking care of yourself... I didn't agree w/ ALL of it... but I like the SPIRIT of what she's saying...Simply put it in the CONTEXT of YOUR beliefs and religion.Cali[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]

I agree, sounds New-agey to me too...I was reading some of them and was like..well
that sounds right..but read another and was like
hmmmm..nope don't agree w/ that...But that is how the devil gets in..adds lies to the truth..says just enough truth..to get you to think..and then adds the deception..which is why they are called "false teachers" they teach some truth..but mixed with lies..which makes it all wrong..

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:
I agree, sounds New-agey to me too...I was reading some of them and was like..well
that sounds right..but read another and was like
hmmmm..nope don't agree w/ that...But that is how the devil gets in..adds lies to the truth..says just enough truth..to get you to think..and then adds the deception..which is why they are called "false teachers" they teach some truth..but mixed with lies..which makes it all wrong..<hr></blockquote>Please remember that this was just a portion... a very small bit of the book... sometimes a few words in a small portion can take on a bigger meaning than was meant too...I'm sure if I had the time, I could find a scripture to back up each of the above as a way God would have us treat our spouses...Cali

This is the stupidest thign i have ever heard. i'll go through each of these point by point to show you their faults.1. In the old model you make progress by talking things through together. In the Spiritual Partnership you make progress by choosing spiritual actions--by yourself.oh yeah, we all know how wonderful closing the lines of communication can be for a relationship! why don't you try this one out for me, i'm curious to know exactly how long it takes for your relationship to crumble!
relatioships are about communications. if you make decisions for yourself you are hurting the relationship to no end.2. In the old model your goal is to solve your problems. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is to outgrow problems by achieving a new level of consciousness.so lets just let every problem go unresolved. it doesn't matter because we are reaching a new level of consciousness! (hint: this now level of consciousness is called "lonelyness". as in the feeling you get after a relationship fails)
you MUST actually RESOLVE problems in a relationship, not let things go. if you let them go you can look forward to an empty bed3. In the old model the goal is to improve the relationship, to move from dysfunctional to functional to thriving. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is for each partner to grow spiritually.OH!!! EVEN BETTER!!! LETS NOT TRY TO MAKE THE RELATIONSHIP WORK AT ALL!!!! who the **** is writing this ****? lets close off all recorses to make a relationship work, and insted get togother so that we can grow apart!
does anyone else think this is the stupidest thing you have ever read?4. In the old model you strive to fulfill the old rules: equality and fairness. In SP you strive by yourself to acheive a balance between your own needs and those of your partner. once again, lets get togother so that we can make ourselves feel better! your partner doesn't matter!
another great idiology that will break a relationship!5. In the old model you solve problems by encouraging yur partner to change. In SP you encourage yourself to change. yes, you encurage yourself to change through closing yourself off to your partner. this doens't make sence at all. 6. In the old model you focus on the differences between you. You ask, "How can we fix what's wrong." In SP you look for commonality, oneness, unity. You ask, "How are we both part of the human experience? How are we the same?"more of the same. all i hear from this is "lets let our problems go unsolved. don't worry, they won't come back to bite us in the [censored]"7. In the old model you rely on the mind. You figure things out, come up with strategies, make decisions, stay in control; you create a lot of noise in your head. In SP you quiet the mind. You rely on inner wisdom from your body. You stop trying to figure things out and change them, and instead you pay attention to what is.Jesus christ!!! does ANYONE think that this really works?!?!?! why does SP keep telling you to abandon your probles without solving them? that is a surefire way to end up alone people!!!8. In the old model your continuing search for improvement keeps you in a state of discontent; you believe you can do better. In SP the state of discontent is the problem. You begin with acceptance. is it just me, or did that just tell us that improvment is a bad thing? i could EASILY write a 400 page essay on how ignorant this statement is, but i'll try to sum it up. to being with acceptance is to either 1) find perfection (which is impossible) or 2) just abandon your problems and assume they will go away. this is just plain dumb
9. In the old model change is slow and incremental. Old habits die hard. Progress is gradual. In SP an inner shift may create "miraculous" change in one moment. You experience quantum leaps. "I was blind, but now I see." it's easy to belive that change comes quickly when you really aren't changing anything. it's tantamount to saying "change is slow, but ignoring it happens right now!! it's a miracle!!!" we can easly change "I was bling, but now i see." to "I was blind, so i gave up and gouged my eyes out"10. In the old model there are limits on how happy two people can be together over many years. In SP the joy of connection is unlimited.HOW?!?!?!?!?!
this states that limiting communication, ignoring problems and letting everything go is equal to a good relationship, but anyone in their right mind knows that is just plain stupid! 11. In the old model relationships are hard work. In SP spiritual growth is hard work; relationships are a pleasure. your damed right growth is hard!! in SP there is no communication and everything goes ignored! and those unresolved problems and no communications means that the relationship is going to be sullen and boring; definatly not happy!12. In the old model you believe that you have to be married to the right person. In SP you know that more important than having the right partner is being the right partner. yep. never talking and ignoring everything makes you a GREAT life partner! "aww, your the best honey! opps, sorry! i forgot! ~silence~"13. In the old model, if you want more from your partner, you must learn to ask for what you want. In SP, if you want more, give more. give MORE?!?!?! HOW IS THIS EQUALLING GIVING MORE? it's taking everything away!!!14. In the old model it is impossible to work on the relationship or make any progress unless both partners are willing to talk. In SP one partner on a spiritual journey can create significant changes in a relationship, by choose unilateral spiritual actions, by offering spiritual leadership, often without saying a word. i'm not going to even start on this one... i don't have enough time to type (i would need hours). suffice it to say that the above does not lead to changed, it leads to everything staying the same. you NEED communication!15. In the old model you approach problems by asking, "Who's right and who's wrong?" "Who needs to change?" In SP being right doesn't matter. You approach problems by asking, "No matter who is right, what can I do to make a difference?" according to point one all decisions must be made on your own. there is no asking! this contradicts itself!i hope now that you can see that these 15 points do not make any sence. the title of this thread is "Using Spiritual Principles to Solve Real Problems" and nothing at all is solved using SP.[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Akujin ]

Akujin... don't hold back... tell me how you really feel.Cali

Okay... I guess you can tell I really liked this book... I have some issues with it... but when you take out the essence it is basically about what BrambleRose says on Lora's post in Recovery... become Aware... learn to Accept and take Action...1. In the old model you make progress by talking things through together. In the Spiritual Partnership you make progress by choosing spiritual actions--by yourself. Sometimes you can talk until your blue in the face... this just says to STOP and take a look at things from a different viewpoint. YOU DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT INSTEAD OF ARGUING. 2. In the old model your goal is to solve your problems. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is to outgrow problems by achieving a new level of consciousness. by accepting my partner's whatever, we argue less... __________ IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR RELATIONSHIP. 3. In the old model the goal is to improve the relationship, to move from dysfunctional to functional to thriving. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is for each partner to grow spiritually. Take care of yourself and act in good will and lovingly towards your spouse4. In the old model you strive to fulfill the old rules: equality and fairness. In SP you strive by yourself to acheive a balance between your own needs and those of your partner. You can be right or you can have your relationship... you can't always have both... My need to be right is NOT more important than my relationship. 5. In the old model you solve problems by encouraging your partner to change. In SP you encourage yourself to change.I can only change me and control my half of the relationship. 6. In the old model you focus on the differences between you. You ask, "How can we fix what's wrong." In SP you look for commonality, oneness, unity. You ask, "How are we both part of the human experience? How are we the same?" [I can only change me and control my half of the relationship. Also POJA... [/b]7. In the old model you rely on the mind. You figure things out, come up with strategies, make decisions, stay in control; you create a lot of noise in your head. In SP you quiet the mind. You rely on inner wisdom from your body. You stop trying to figure things out and change them, and instead you pay attention to what is. ACT only after Awareness and Acceptance... God's Will not mine.8. In the old model your continuing search for improvement keeps you in a state of discontent; you believe you can do better. In SP the state of discontent is the problem. You begin with acceptance. Accept the things I cannot change... 9. In the old model change is slow and incremental. Old habits die hard. Progress is gradual. In SP an inner shift may create "miraculous" change in one moment. You experience quantum leaps. "I was blind, but now I see." Okay... this one speaks to me 'cause I'd like change to be lightening bolt fast... sometimes it is... and sometimes it comes in baby steps... 10. In the old model there are limits on how happy two people can be together over many years. In SP the joy of connection is unlimited. I'll have to admit... unlimited joy is attractive. 11. In the old model relationships are hard work. In SP spiritual growth is hard work; relationships are a pleasure. I'd rather work hard on my spiritual self and physical and enjoy my relationship... 12. In the old model you believe that you have to be married to the right person. In SP you know that more important than having the right partner is being the right partner. YES!!!13. In the old model, if you want more from your partner, you must learn to ask for what you want. In SP, if you want more, give more. and she does talk about what and how to ask for... the deal breaker stuff ... plus 'standing up' for yourself... (she doesn't me just sitting back and taking whatever scraps you get.)14. In the old model it is impossible to work on the relationship or make any progress unless both partners are willing to talk. In SP one partner on a spiritual journey can create significant changes in a relationship, by choose unilateral spiritual actions, by offering spiritual leadership, often without saying a word. Those of us at MB have seen evidence of progress w/out talking to spouse... some of us have been separated and in no contact when HUGE changes have been able to take place...15. In the old model you approach problems by asking, "Who's right and who's wrong?" "Who needs to change?" In SP being right doesn't matter. You approach problems by asking, "No matter who is right, what can I do to make a difference?" You can be right. You can be married. You can't always be both... My need to be right is NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY RELATIONSHIP. I will admit... as I read I'm trying to reconcile it w/ MB...Cali

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Cali:
Akujin... don't hold back... tell me how you really feel.Cali<hr></blockquote>Uh, geez, Cali, I'm kinda SORRY I said what I said!! I feel like everyone jumped on MY bandwagon! Personally, I would have to see the WHOLE book, cause my "first impressions" from what you have quoted here isn't "doing it" for me, but I trust YOUR judgment of all things spiritual to know you wouldn't get involved wiht anything all new-age-y. I know you know and love the Lord, and only want to follow Him and His Truth.Thanks for letting it "all hang out," Akujin!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I guess I'm more leaning the way YOU are about what all these concepts are telling us.ThornedRose, I guess you are on the same wave-length I am with this stuff.....sounds TOO ½ & ½ to me....I like my truths to more rock-solid so I don't misinterpret them along the way!God Bless,

Well, this is really not answering your question, but I thought I would share what popped into my head. It sort of took me down another train of thought, which sorta fits in... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Your subject caught my attention cuz I caught something on TV (PBS actually [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) this weekend... a series of talks by ummm...phooey... whatshis name... ughhh... I'll have to go look it up.. Dr. Wayne Dyer... anyway... about "Spiritual solutions for every problem"... or something like that. So I thought that's what this post was about. I was a little disappointed to find that it wasn't. And actually when I looked at it, I didn't have the patience to read [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . I guess my first impression was a little like Lupo's. I know I know... I always try to listen and learn with an open mind - I figure I can learn something from almost anything. Sorry, Cali!!! Your posts are always inspiring and thought-provoking. I appreciate them very much!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You have led me to many new thoughts, ideas, and books [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] !!!Anyway, this talk I caught a piece of was based on the Prayer of St. Francis, which I LOVE. I have it printed and stuck right here on my monitor. This is what I think of when I think of "solving every-day problems spiritually".* * * * * *
The Prayer of St. Francis of AssisiLord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
...where there is injury, thy pardon, Lord;
...where there is doubt, let there be faith;
...where there is despair, let me bring hope;
...where there is darkness, let there be light;
...where there is sadness, let there be joy;O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
...to be consoled as to console;
...to be understood as to understand;
...to be loved as to love.For it is in giving that we receive;
...it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
...and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
* * * * * *[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Hey Cali ~ I absolutely hate the writing style. But to answer your question, yes, the answer to most of our REAL problems is a spiritual one.For me, its working the 12 steps - a spiritual answer that has answered my most difficult real life problemsWhen I stop trying to control and force solutions, when I simply step back, accept reality and focus on my own spiritual development, things do resolve themselves.When I stopped trying to fix my marriage and my relationship, and put the focus on me, answers and miracles started occuring.I no longer need to chase my H down for relationship talks - by dropping that behavior on my part, I now have far more honesty and openness on a daily basis than I did when I insisted that we "work" at it and talk about it and all that other exhausting stuff.Let go and Let God.

yeah, new agey here too, and not very useful. As you know I lean more to pragmatic psychology, and reality checks, not wishful thinking, or rein-venting oneself...the stuff that (she said) made sense is the same stuff we already know from practical psychology....like you can only change yourself, and so forth.....nor did I see anything there about leaveing a relationship, so we are back to the bias that ya gotta make it work with a one particular person, whether the "couple" makes any sense or not....I personally have concluded that any life strategy that is biased to only one outcome is simply coercion. All of this stuff that implies divorce is not a legitimate, healthy, solution/boundary, in the list of choices is flawed IMO...this stuff tries to make people feel bad about themselves by directing them to a specific outcome (restored marriage), and if they cannot get there is just cause they are not trying hard enough, ergo, they are defective....not spiritual enough, too selfish, have personal "issues" needing repair, etc. etc..... what about you just don't want to be in an intimate relationship with this person? Where is personal choice in who you live your life with? Where is the means to change your mind re who you married (and usually in woeful ignorance of who you are, and who they are). You entered it freely, but somehow you are messed up if you leave it freely? Well, anyways, you know my position, marriage is not important, people are, and they have to fit in a safe, nurturing, joyous way or why be married, just be friends instead and not have the stress of intimacy. Hope I didn't rain on this parade, it seemed you were asking for all opinions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:

...things do resolve themselves.When I stopped trying to fix my marriage and my relationship, and put the focus on me, answers and miracles started occuring...<hr></blockquote>in what world do you live? can't you see that problems never resolve themselves, we insted choose to ignore them and pretend they are better?there is a differance between resolution and abstanation. learn it well and perhaps those problems will actually be fixed, refuse to belive this and all that you ignore will come back to haunt you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by lupolady:

. . . Thanks for letting it "all hang out," Akujin!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I guess I'm more leaning the way YOU are about what all these concepts are telling us. . .
<hr></blockquote>It's nice to know that my words did not fall upon deaf ears. when you are looking at a relationship problem which do YOU think is more effective: talking about it, or ignoring it?to say that communication is the solution is to abandon all that SP tells us. To say the oppisite, that no communication is the key, you are completly upholding SP.it's your choice

Akujin...FOR THE RECORD... NO WHERE IN THE BOOK DOES IT SAY 'NEVER TALK' OR 'STUFF YOUR FEELINGS, CAUSE YOU DON'T MATTER.'Maybe it is a little new agey... but frankly if MORE PEOPLE KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND ENGAGED THEIR BRAINS... perhaps they'd do fewer LOVEBUSTERS.Your high-horse, sanctimonious tone really irritates me.

I see your point on the last post to Akujin, Cali, cuz all I was thinking while reading it was "yeah, but we still live in the real world." But I can see the challenge to be more spiritual minded, and that is very valuable. Plus, I never did notice her say that you cannot incorporate the "old model" into the SP.Signed, Flori (just kidding, I'm from FL)Hoping

Well, and yeah...doesn't Stormie Omartian in the "Power of the Praying Wife" talk about praying for your husband's wife before expecting any real change in your husband? I think I got it now. (Haven't you talked about that book before? I bought it cuz a friend had read it and then I saw you or another MBer was using it. I really enjoy it.)

Cali,Just wanted to show a little support here. I'm not much of a religous person but I "finally" have a little bit of spirituality. What you posted falls in line with the 12 step program that Bramble Rose talks about. I'm reluctant to say I'm an alcoholic because so many people judge. Oh-well, not my problem.There is power in spirituality though. I think many of us resist that course because it requires faith. A lot of us are disappointed because our prayers aren't answered how we want them to be. They're being answered, we need to quit asking and start listening and giving thanks. In my own experience all it took was a single moment to say to myself, "This is bigger than me. Somebody else is going to have to handle this for me and I'm going to get on with my life." That was the moment I admitted there was a power bigger than me. I don't have to believe in a certain religion and I don't even have to believe in "God". One thing that I've learned is that I have my own view and belief of "God". He knows what he's (she?) doing and whatever he sends my way (good or bad) is a gift. So, people can call it what they want and say I'm just avoiding the real problems. Maybe I am in the world's eyes but I know the results of "surrendering".1.) I haven't had a drink in over 2 months and I know I won't drink today. Tomorrow may be a different story but I don't worry about that.
2. I am no longer dependent on my WS. I am getting on with my life. By dependency on my WS, I mean providing for her emotional needs, which oddly enough, is one of my co-dependent and enabling problems.
3. I'm happier and more productive than I've been in years. All because I chose to acknowledge there is somebody or something bigger than I.
4. If I should ever be presented with a situation I can't handle again I know what to do.
who

I don't think those comments were a matter of anyone jumping on Lupolady's bandwagon. I think it's more a matter of "great minds thinking alike," quite independently. Before I'd read any comments at all, the very first word that sprang to my mind was "Newage" (rhymes with "sewage"). [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] That doesn't mean I'm wholly negative about it by any means. Here are my remarks on each item:1. In the old model you make progress by talking things through together. In the Spiritual Partnership you make progress by choosing spiritual actions--by yourself.Unilateral action can be an effective alternative to talking in many situations, though not all. I don't know what makes it "spiritual" though, other than dressing it up that way makes it sound better to some people.2. In the old model your goal is to solve your problems. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is to outgrow problems by achieving a new level of consciousness.Unless somebody can explain this, it smells like snake oil to me.3. In the old model the goal is to improve the relationship, to move from dysfunctional to functional to thriving. In Spiritual Partnership the goal is for each partner to grow spiritually.But the goal is to improve the relationship; let's not lose sight of that. If this so-called "spiritual growth" relieves tension due to leaning too heavily on a partner for something they can't give, all well and good. If it leads to growing apart and a weakening of the bonds between the partners, that might be fatal.4. In the old model you strive to fulfill the old rules: equality and fairness. In SP you strive by yourself to achieve a balance between your own needs and those of your partner.How do you make sure you're fulfilling enough of your partner's needs?5. In the old model you solve problems by encouraging your partner to change. In SP you encourage yourself to change.There's often value in doing that.6. In the old model you focus on the differences between you. You ask, "How can we fix what's wrong." In SP you look for commonality, oneness, unity. You ask, "How are we both part of the human experience? How are we the same?"The "human experience" part seems vague and wishy-washy, if not actually tending to divert energy away from the relationship into the outside world. Overall though, focusing on what the partners share, what brings them together, sounds positive.7. In the old model you rely on the mind. You figure things out, come up with strategies, make decisions, stay in control; you create a lot of noise in your head. In SP you quiet the mind. You rely on inner wisdom from your body. You stop trying to figure things out and change them, and instead you pay attention to what is.This is the one that curves my spine, sets my teeth on edge, and sends me screaming up the wall. I'm tired of hearing such misleading mumbo-jumbo. That the people who talk this way need a lesson in anatomy is only the beginning. Wisdom does not reside in the body, but in the mind. While it's beneficial to change nonproductive thinking patterns, the notion that thinking itself is just so much "noise in your head" is downright insulting. As for the body, it often sends us signals that need taking into account as useful data, but that's all. "Relying on" the body really amounts to ignoring the higher thought processes that set us above mere animals, and reducing ourselves to slaves of the primitive reptilian brain stem. If we feel our fist clenching, we're angry; should we hit someone? If we've got a throb between our legs, we're horny; should we screw the first person who looks attractive? If we've got butterflies in our stomach, we're nervous; should we run away? "If it feels good, do it?" Sorry, "wisdom" and "spirituality" both should be about MIND OVER matter.8. In the old model your continuing search for improvement keeps you in a state of discontent; you believe you can do better. In SP the state of discontent is the problem. You begin with acceptance.Who said the "old model" keeps you discontented? What "old model" is she talking about anyway?9. In the old model change is slow and incremental. Old habits die hard. Progress is gradual. In SP an inner shift may create "miraculous" change in one moment. You experience quantum leaps. "I was blind, but now I see."This smells like more snake oil. It needs proving.10. In the old model there are limits on how happy two people can be together over many years. In SP the joy of connection is unlimited.Who said there are limits on happiness in this "old model"?11. In the old model relationships are hard work. In SP spiritual growth is hard work; relationships are a pleasure.And who said relationships have to be hard work?12. In the old model you believe that you have to be married to the right person. In SP you know that more important than having the right partner is being the right partner.There's something to be said for that.13. In the old model, if you want more from your partner, you must learn to ask for what you want. In SP, if you want more, give more.And get random paybacks?14. In the old model it is impossible to work on the relationship or make any progress unless both partners are willing to talk. In SP one partner on a spiritual journey can create significant changes in a relationship, by choose unilateral spiritual actions, by offering spiritual leadership, often without saying a word.Same comment as #1.15. In the old model you approach problems by asking, "Who's right and who's wrong?" "Who needs to change?" In SP being right doesn't matter. You approach problems by asking, "No matter who is right, what can I do to make a difference?"Ah, but who's right can matter, if being wrong means wrecking the whole family, financially, emotionally, or otherwise.Overall I think I had exactly the same reaction as Lupo. The items that bugged me more than any were #2 and especially #7. We may say much of this is due to the mode of expression, and maybe some of the items just need clarifying. But if that's all they need, then the writer only has herself to blame for being far too vague in the first place. We're fully justified in asking why people don't say what they mean.

Okay...I am 'clueless' about "New Age." That being said, I realize that I am drawn to some of it... some of it reeks. I don't get into crystals... etc.I realized on Friday, when I was in Barnes & Noble, that another book I like, "The Four Agreements" was placed in their "New Age" section... oh, it is in other sections, too... but this is the first time I have seen it in a section titled "New Age."So, I don't know if it means anything... but I don't know very much about what makes something 'new age.' oh, and the following are the 'actions' she suggests you take to accomplish a spiritual relationship: <blockquote>quote:<hr>Communication and negotiation don't solve conflicts in love relationships, Page asserts. Rather, make an inner shift yourself--independent of your partner--and learn to "love openly and freely." Her process involves "the Five Sacred Acts of Love":
Practice Restraint: refrain from negative, critical, and demanding comments.Act As If: act loving, even if you don't feel like it.Act on Your Own: take care of your own needs.Practice Acceptance: stop trying to change your partner.Cultivate Compassion: understand that your partner's attitudes and behavior are the way they are for good reasons.
<hr></blockquote>And, I agree, some of these things could lead to withdrawal and disconnection... I guess in all things it is your perspective, your intention and what you do w/ what you know.Cali[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Practice Restraint: refrain from negative, critical, and demanding comments.
<hr></blockquote>Isn't this Harley-esque? Those sound like LB's to me. (I know cuz I'm so good at them.) <blockquote>quote:<hr>Act As If: act loving, even if you don't feel like it.
<hr></blockquote>Now, I've heard, "Smile when you don't feel like it and you will start to feel better." Is this the same thing, or is it saying, "Be a pretender?" I think if misinterpreted, it could get someone's taker taking over.

Thanks for posting that, Cali. It sounds a lot better. I can actually understand what Page is saying now! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] My comments:Communication and negotiation don't solve conflicts in love relationships, Page asserts.This is the kind of all-or-nothing statement it's better to avoid. Communication and negotiation do solve conflicts in love relationships. It's simply that they won't solve them all, and when they don't work, some other approach can be more effective. I'll certainly go that far with her. It's also fair to say that most couples have a few issues they never do resolve, but if the relationship is generally good they can step around those issues and not let them wreck the partnership.Rather, make an inner shift yourself--independent of your partner--and learn to "love openly and freely." Her process involves "the Five Sacred Acts of Love":Practice Restraint: refrain from negative, critical, and demanding comments.This is pure Harley, as H4F pointed out. And it's a conscious choice of the mind. If people followed what their "body" or their "feelings" made them want to do all the time, they'd be LBing like crazy.Act As If: act loving, even if you don't feel like it.This is similar. I forget whether Harley says anything about it, but I'm sure Michele does. It's not so much a matter of smiling making oneself feel better; it's more about the interactive effect. When two people "act as if" they like one another, that tends to make them like one another in reality. This is also a good example of where all this "body" stuff seems misleading. If we find a frown on our face, is our body imparting "inner wisdom" to us? No, it's only telling us we're unhappy! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] If we use the mind's wisdom to control the body and try sticking a smile on our face instead, maybe something good will happen. Or if we're all defensive, folding our arms and shutting someone out, we can use the mind to relax the body, unfold our arms and see if that doesn't make us feel more open and receptive.Act on Your Own: take care of your own needs.That's sound advice, when acting helpless and expecting a partner to take care of those needs only causes resentment when they don't.Practice Acceptance: stop trying to change your partner.That can be useful advice too, even if "choose your battles wisely" may be a more general strategy. For partners with addictions and the like it's essential advice, naturally.Cultivate Compassion: understand that your partner's attitudes and behavior are the way they are for good reasons.I think this is an excellent point. Again, to me this is a function of the mind: to understand why somebody behaves a particular way, and to find alternative and more positive interpretations of what they're doing. "Not thinking" on the other hand is what leaves people to make negative assumptions and react to a partner's behavior in knee-jerk fashion.With all the spiritual abracadabra stripped away, Page's advice makes a lot clearer sense. When there are spirits lurking around, who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters! Take care! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Eddystone ]