Have been married to H since we were both 19. Just feeling down, I thought by now our life and marriage would be solid and safe. How naive can a person be? Have been together 36 years. I'm just so sad that the infidelity thing has popped up again, that we still have not learned to be happily married. So many mistakes. I couldnt stop loving him now if I tried. Too much history, memories, emotional ties.

If we divorce it will be the saddest time of my life. My reason for this post? Just a statement of where I am at emotionally.

To people who are younger and less experienced, learn to take good care of your marriages from the start. They are so fragile.

Replaced

I know just how you feel. I was divorced after 29 yrs of marriage for the OW. I have been divorced 5 yrs now and not a day goes by that I don't think of ex. My divorce day was the saddest of my life. Time does heal pain, but there are always triggers, children or grandchildren that remind you of what has been lost and that you aren't one big happy family anymore. I try my best to keep busy and move on, but it is difficult. I envy the ones who can put their marriages back together.

I'd love to say I'm crashing your thread,,that I am far to young to enter, but unfortunately being the "fossil" I am,,I do qualify. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I never thought I'd have reason to be on a forum like this either. I thought by now we'd be kicked back, so secure with one another, enjoying the fruits of our efforts during our many years together. And, although we are in recovery for over 4 years now and, once again, back on the road to growing older together, it's been a tough ride. One I never anticipated.

And, like you, I wish I knew then, what I know now. How differently I would have done some things. And how much more I would have appreciated others.

Replaced, we know there's nothing we can do about the past. All we can do is confront it, learn from it and make plans and goals to make our future better.

((((( Replaced )))))

Just sounded like you could use a hug. As another "fossil", infidelity after so much time together does hit you hard.

How are things with you and your husband? Come on over to the Recovery forum and post up an update. There are some great folks over there who are more than willing to lend a supportive hand.

db,

"I envy the ones who can put their marriges back together"

So do I because we are not there yet! Hoping against hope that it will happen. I'm so sorry you ended up D'd. I know I would survive, but D is not my first choice of course.

Nerly,

"we know there's nothing we can do about the past"

I agree 100% that confronting, learning, making plans and goals for future are the way to go. I'm starting to understand that we will NEVER stop learning(hopefully) and will always need to adjust ourselves to unexpected situations in our lives. What a RIDE!!!

Forever,

Thanks for the hug, and I am planning to move to recovery board soon. I've been so full of questions, this has felt like the right place to be for the most part. See you soon!

Replaced

Replaced,

I feel for you...I, too, have been deeply hurt and still wonder how can I be so naive, stupid not to see anything? We had ups and downs during our 30-year marriage and I only knew of a one-night A about 3 years after our M until last Aug when I saw some IMs that he had saved. Confronting him with the truth was not easy because he vehemently denied everything following OW's advice. It hurt even more to discover that those two instances were not the only ones, there were several others during the 30 years and the first one was not a one-nighter but an off-and-on A with a ex co-worker who has been coming to our house as a friend over the years. We are still in counseling and recovery is going well. However, I will never be the same naive, trusting person that I was. It changed the way I look at other women also...I find myself not trusting some women and I don't like that feeling. Betrayal is so hurtful and it's doublefold when you've been together so long and think you know each other well to find out that you really did not at all. I hope you and your H are able to save your M. You will have to be strong. God bless.

My M was not as long as the rest of yours, but 20 years still seems like a very big chunk of my life to get over. D is inevitable in our case. WH is and has been living with OW who is almost 30 years younger than me. H is hateful to me and blames me for all his losses, denying the truth that they are really due to his return to drugs and alcohol after several years of sobriety (I now doubt it was 10 yrs from what people have been telling me and I've also heard that there have been at least a few OWs). The betrayal and the lies are the hardest part to accept because I too saw us getting old together and finally having time for ourselves about now...

I just wish that MB and other info so readily available today had been given to me when I was a very young lady. It sure would have made a difference in my life.

The MB books (not SSA) would make a wonderful wedding present for any young couples.

Decue,

"it's doublefold when you've been together so long"

Abolutely, I thought I was safe, then came D day with the emails and phone records and on and on.....the bubble is burst....I am strong, hoping he is too.

"I find myself not trusting some women"

Unfortunately at present, I trust none of them!

LetSTry,

20 years IS a big chunk of your life. Do you go to Alanon? Can you detach? I feel for you.

Zorweb,

Funny thing, I would never have taken the time to read Harley at age 19(when we got married). You know how KIDS are. Hard lessons.

Replaced

Replaced,

You are right that most 19 year olds would not take the time to read the books. I think I would have only because I tend to read everything I get my hands on. But implementing it is a different story. But the thing is that at least I would have known what to expect. Feel so stupid when I look back to realize that I had no idea of what to expect in a marriage or how to handle the hard times. The good times are easy, it’s that hard times that bite ya.

We have three children at home d-12, s-13, s-14. Since shortly after d-day (3/2001) we have been teaching them the MB concepts. We now run our family according to the MB rules and concepts: care, protection, honesty and time. We discuss them often with the children during everyday life.

For example they know the term ‘radical honesty’. We now expect everyone in the household to live by that. There are obviously some things that parents do not share with children. But within reason our entire family lives by that rule.

As for the ‘rule of time’. Since it takes 15 hours a week of one-on-one time to maintain a healthy marriage, we have decided that it takes 7 hours a week of child-parent time to have a healthy relationship with our children. This number, and the reasons for it, and the differences between husband/wife and child/parent time was discussed with the children. Also the reasons for it and the reasons why it’s one number for the parents and one for the children. Originally our children thought that parents needed to spend every waking hour away from work with them… they felt cheated otherwise. They resented the time my husband and I spent together. Now they understand.

And they know all about care and protection. They discuss emotional needs and love busters when an issue comes up. It’s really helped our family. Especially in light of all the problems we’ve had in the last two years. I don’t know what we would have done without MB to give our lives a foundation. I just don’t think we’d have made it this far.

Anyway, I think you get the idea. We wish we’d been taught a lot more about relationships as children. So we are trying to do it with ours.

Zorweb,

I, too, wished I knew about MB. Although I was 22 when we married, I was very naive and sheltered. My older son, who's only been married for 2 years is having relationship problems and I have given him His Needs Her Needs and asked him to read it and ask his W to read it too. They have a 7-mos old baby and are under stress. I hope they read it. He told me that they always work things out but I feel that he usually compromises and am worried that eventually something is going to happen.

Replaced,

How are you doing? Are you going to MC? My WH offered to go to MC right from the beginning and it has really helped us. It seems that he had a hard time understanding what I was trying to communicate to him but with the Counselor's help he was able to understand.

Zorweb,

Love the way you have incorporated MB principles into a way of life for the whole family. I've thought a lot about this myself. A lot of it was already "in my head" as the way things ought to be in a healthy family and marriage to begin with. For some reason our family has had a hard time staying on track consistently over the years. Now I see the importance of focusing harder on marriage and family. I think being married so YOUNG and inexperienced was a lot of the problem. So naive, bumbling along, trying, succeeding, failing. I dont think it is ever to late, even if a marriage dissolves, to make the best of the rest of our life.

Decue,

No MC yet. I really think H would agree, but since D-day in Jan 2001, H and I have been apart 11 of those months. He is gone out of state trying to resolve a financial situation, I am home taking care of sick family members. It has been hard, we dont do well over phone. It is impossible to resolve problems and issues in our marriage long distance. I refuse to give up without first having the chance to be together in the same house again, which may be happening soon. This is so hard!

Replaced

I am 54 and WS is 56 and OW is 27....after 33 years of M, I have decided that I have had enough. WS refuses to make any changes and still does not know if he wants to be married or not. Feels caught in the middle. Will not leave or work on anything sooooooo......

To decide that I have had enough was the hardest thing I ever did but now that I am facing the reality of my H's unwillingness to work on us, I can now move on. My lawyer said that there is an epidemic going on with older marriages and affairs. More than she has ever seen before so our society is changing drastically. There is so many enabling situations that keep some people in their muck and mire. It is so sad to throw away so many good things with the bad but facing the reality for me has freed me to move on and live life the best I can.

TW

tossedwave,

If need be I will do exactly what you are doing. I wont have a clue if that is necessary until he and I are in the same house again so I can get a better feel for what the future holds. I'm surprised at what your lawyer said! Could it be that more women refuse to "put up with", or some kind of "mens lib" movement? Or a rash of MLC triggered by the state of world affairs(LOL no pun intended)?

Best wishes
Replaced

I have been avoiding this thread ! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was born in 1949 .... the babyboomers heyday!

I did not marry at an early age. I was 31 when we married, H was 30. First M for both. I had sewn all my wild oats and was ready to settle down ... and so was H.

For me ... our M has to be respectful in order for me to remain ... the love issue is not my major divining rod. I had a long-term relationship before my M ... and the love was always intense ... but, he was BAD for me in so many ways .... we can love someone, and still have a miserable existence/relationship being with them.

I cannot stay M'd unless I respect my H as a *MAN* ... with a capitol *M* .... I don't want a little lost boy for a H .... I just don't.

Thankfully (for HIM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) ... Mr. Pepper became a *MAN* that I respect during our recovery .... I would not have stayed otherwise. I do not think it is mandatory to even try to recover after adultery ... it is a choice, but I can always respect any BS who decides , "Ya know what ... THIS <adultery> is where I get off the bus."

One woman's opinion.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Replaced,

I think there is a few reasons why long-term M's are ending today. #1 There are no moral boundaries today.....Women are so free to give away their "affections" expecting nothing in return. Some people find the no-strings-attached deals exhilarating and the non-committal guy loves this deal. #2 There are more single women today than men that are looking desperately for a partner. #3 There is are so few good marriages and good examples to show younger people today how to commit to one person for life. Men have it made today....(LOL) NOT!!!!!

I never thought I would ever be in this position. I always believed that I should stand by my man through thick and thin but I now know that there is limit to standing by your man. I guess that is why Jesus said that one can divorce because of infidelity. I am amazed at how emotionally destroying adultery is to so many. It is a devasting curse in our society today.

Hope you get a chance to rebuild but remember above all else that if your H does nothing to rebuild, YOU WILL NEVER GET ANYWHERE but crazier trying to beat a dead horse. I believe my H could stay in this limboland indefinitely that is why someone has to say "ENOUGH" I am getting off the roller coaster.

TW

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Pepper,

I was born in 1949 and so was H! Great year!!!

"I dont want a little lost boy for a H". Me either. For some reason I have "matured" and in many ways H has not. His own Dad said "H just needs to grow up", thats when it became clear to me what the biggest problem is. And I need to GROW UP and say "knock it off or I WILL be getting off the bus".

I married a boy, H married a girl, I am now a woman, H is half boy, half man. His infidelities are "little boy" stuff. He admitted "I knew exactly what I was doing and I enjoyed it". What a brat! Basically an admission that he was a real jerk and he knew it.

I've seen signs of his growing up recently, will see if that is real before long. Waiting for the rest of the MAN.

Replaced

Tossedwave,

"if your H does nothing to rebuild".

Precisely what I am waiting to see.....it will be my job to set limits, ask for what I need, decide how long to wait, AND find out what HE needs from me.

Replaced

Hanora,

By the time I get to this "wisdom" bit I'll be senile".
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
No kidding!!! For me the "wisdom" thing has been slow coming. Most of it was from the wake up call from H's most recent A. I "wised up" and "saw the forest instead of just the trees", "smelled the coffee", all kinds of upleasant revelations about H, myself, our marriage, REALITIES.

I think we should all write a BOOK!!!

Replaced

(((REPLACED)))

I was humbled once I realized my H could only continue to play the lost little boy if I continued played the parent to his child.

THEN ... I had to let go of being the controling parent ... easier said than done I had become comfortable controling and correcting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .... My H was an alcoholic .... the really funny, charming, fun-loving , artsy & talented kind of alcoholic .... then the flip side .... the really irresponsible, immature, self-loathing kind of alcoholic.

Women who marry little boys are usually women who like to take charge .... otherwise, we would have selected a take charge kind of man.

THIS was my moment of truth .... and I let go. (well, truthfully, it was a gradual letting go ... as changing one's self normally is) NOW, when my take *charge woman* raises her head ... my H will challenge her ! This was like being in a whole new marriage. Adjusting to this was harder than you might think. I am a nurse who works independently ... and I make major decisions every day ... and suddenly, I was in a partnership making decisions.

My H's task was (as he now puts it) ... "I found my voice" .... speaking up and challenging me (not the same as LBing ... but at first it felt like LBing because I was not used to dealing with his *MAN* voice.

Now ... after years of practice .... I do not emasculate his power .... I find it to be a real ~turn on~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One woman's thoughts~~~~

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS....

A mid-50's man-boy will look like a *MAN* to a mid-20's woman .... and that is very likely the center of the attraction ... "She makes me feel like a MAN!" The 50-year-old man is not in a childish position with a 20-year-old woman.

Can he be a *MAN* with his 50-year-old wife???

Will the wife let him???

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper,

I am the great enabler, take care of everybody, I have made it very easy for H to stay a boy in a lot of ways. In actuality HE had the greater voice and I just went along with what he wanted. In other words I spoiled him like a child.

Now that I have found MY voice, it doesnt set well with him. Change will be slow.

It is funny, I am a nurse too, havent worked as one for years, have been in business with H and helping care for sick family members.

I've told H for awhile now, I need a partner to stand by ME, instead of me struggling alone and being expected to also stand by HIM. Just need some logical balance and common sense. Life is not just about what HE WANTS, it is also about what WE BOTH NEED.

I think the way H will grow up is when I start consistently ASKING for what I need instead of suffering like a martyr.

I've really messed up, havent I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Replaced

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Replaced ]</small>

"I've really messed up, haven't I?"

Listen, we're all doing the best we can at any given moment. You haven't messed up any more than the next person you meet or speak to.

Be kind to yourself.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thankyou Pepper, I needed that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Replaced <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pepper,

What insight you have just given me about the 20 yr old falling in love with the 50 yr old "man".

Replaced---I have been soooooo codependent and yes, my H and I have admitted that our relationship has been like parent and child so I have screwed up too. But I wholeheartedly admitted it to my H and apologized and was willing to work through and change. He admits that he does not want to change and does not want to answer to anyone anymore. He says, He can be a great friend but he is not husband material. My H is also an alcoholic (Pepper, is your H still actively drinking?) My H laments about what he has done but will do nothing to change where we are at and still admits he can't turn off his feelings for OW. I cannot do this anymore so he may have to grow up quick or find another mother.

TW

P.S. H still tries to pull me into mother mode but I have quit being his mother and I tell him he has to make his own decisions and figure out his own feelings. He asked me for the thousandth time....what can I do to turn things around. I said, "You have to look inside "H" and ask "H" what do I need to make my life better and healthier?"

Mr. Pepper has been " working the program" (AA) for 6 1/2 years. We would have been divorced otherwise. Just stopping drinking was not enough ... he had to change his thinking ... therefore AA meetings, and AA leadership.

He's doing great. He loves life as a sober *MAN*. he tells me everyday.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TW,

Has your H had any therapy, IC, MC? What about the possibility of depressive disorder, Meds?

My H is not alcoholic but is ADD, and has depression and is on one med. Counseling needed but has not happened as yet. Just a thought. Everyone is different. Many ways to help resolve these situations.

Replaced

Replaced, Counseling was one of the boundaries I sent when he decided to come back (without my total agreement). I spent a couple of months waiting for him to make a decision about counseling and he came to the conclusion that he WILL not talk to a stranger about his problems. He also talked with a sober alcoholic friend who said he would go to AA with him but H said he is not able to do that at this time. He will do nothing to change anything and still deals with all problems by self medicating and escaping. He also admits that he feels caught in the middle cause he can't turn off feelings for OW. We had a struggling M for years cause the drinking caused a huge wall between us and the A has tipped the scales for me. I have spent the last 1 1/2 willing to work on us but he refuses all types of rebuilding. He admitted that he does not think he should be M so I can do nothing else.
So my only recourse is to make a new life of my own at this point and I must say I feel I will be able to do that now.
TW

Tossedwave,
I admire your strength, and your ability to make that decision to make a new life for yourself. It sounds as if you have done all you can do. Best wishes for your new future.

Relaced

Being one of the "fossils" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , I had to jump in. It's hard being older, having a 30+ year marriage, and being HERE. My H and I are both 52 and have had, in many ways a good marriage, but in others, one that where there was not honesty or openness or good communication. D-day #1 was almost 20 years ago and, although life was never the same, I felt that we had made a reasonable recovery. But in May of this year I discovered that the EA had continued (in the form of yearly correspondence) until last year.

So almost 20 years later, there we were writing a "no contact" letter to the OW who should have been out of our lives years ago. I have felt so angry that we have to deal with all this again. My trust was shattered again and the reality that he lied to me for so many years has been so hard to swallow.

Most of the time, I feel that we are making a good recovery...but it is a real roller coaster and, in my darkest moments, I question why I am still here...still trying (and still crying) after all these years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't think that either of us has considered anything else but staying together. My H has really been trying to be honest and open and demonstrate that I can trust him again. He seems so committed to our relationship. But the changes we are trying to make are so hard, not just for him, but for me too. I am determined that we won't slip back into our old ways of doing things (lots of conflict avoidence) and hope that we can continue to navigate our way though this.

We haven't been to MC or IC because he is not a big believer in counseling, but we have agreed that if we feel stuck at year's end, that we will reconsider.

After everything, I still love this guy so much. I love being with him, I love being parents and grandparents together, I love sleeping next to him every night. Am I just a fool, or what????

DarkSide~~

I think it's a big mistake not to go to MC. Does he refuse ... or are you not insisting? (I think this is an example of conflict avoidence in and of it's self)

Is the OW married? Does her spouse know about this long term A? Do you know her personally?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Dear Dark----how I hurt with you. I understand totally how you feel. I love my H and love to be with him but unlike your H, mine is not trying just lamenting and remorseful and distance. He is totally overwhelmed and frozen in where he is at.

I can understand why you are struggling so....you both are probably still using the same communicating patterns as before and without a third party helping you out of the old stuff, you may struggle forever. Hope you both come to see the need to get help. If you are both open, it will work wonders. When someone else sees things from a different perspective, the real issues can get addressed. Will pray for the help you need when the timing is right.

TW

tossedwave and Dark,

Most of us on this thread have walked the earth for more than half a century. Many of us have been married to the same person more than half our lives! An amazing feat in itself!

I think of the saying "you cant teach an old dog new tricks" and it scares me. Recently I told a friend of mine a little bit about our marital problems, the dynamics of our relationship, how I "go along with" what H wants to do when I KNOW I should say no. How now I am voicing my opinions more, putting my foot down when necessary, wanting to talk about issues.

The friend said to me, "you have been doing this for over 30 years and you want to change it NOW?!!!

That is when the harsh reality hit. The habits are SOOOO deeply engrained, the behavior patterns so firmly in place. The dynamic so familiar. I have made some major changes in myself. H and I have been apart for 7 months straight, and I have no way of knowing what H is doing in the way of personal change. That will remain a mystery until he comes home. I am just now realizing what a monumental task all of this "rebuilding" really is. It takes 2 very commited people for there to be significant improvement. I just feel discouraged about it all.

This is mostly of vent of honest feelings at the moment. I dont plan on staying in the hopeless and discouraged mode for long. Even if we end up divorced, life will go on. Hope my thoughts dont drag anyone else down tonite.

Replaced

Replaced, we all have feelings we don't like but they are just feelings. I learned in alanon that a feeling is not a fault or shortcoming but it is what we do with our feelings that can be a huge fault......being disrespectful to ourselves or another.....having an affair....killing someone out of hate. We all need to be honest and open with ourselves, God and hopefully a trusted friend and face the feelings we have. I think not facing them leads to wrongdoing.

My saying lately is "you can't beat a dead horse". You are totally right that it takes 2 committed people to rebuild. I have tried for 33 years to "fix" our M and I always feared that if I gave up, our M would end.....and it is. My H is unwilling to work on things but he does not want it to end so I get caught up in the "it ain't that bad" syndrome and find myself feeling guilty that I want more than an occassional night watching TV with my H. We do nothing together and he has always insisted on a separate life. This is so painful to me that I finally had to start taking antidepressants since he came back. Sad thing is that he is the one person I want to spend all my time with so am I crazy??? NO--- but I need to look at how unhealthy things are and get a life for myself...... I am tired of longing for something I will never have and expecting things I may never see. My planning to leave has been the most painful thing I have ever done but the alternative is more painful. I am almost there and I know that there is life after divorce.

There's a vent for ya. I pray that you will know what is best and see the reality of your marital situation in due time.

TW

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Some familiar names here! Yes, I am in the age group. Oh, I do so identify with so many of the feelings expressed here; I tried for four years to "save" our marriage. To this day I am still stunned when it comes to understanding what hit us. I truly believed we were happy together; then OW came along; 22 years younger! Smart, fun to be with - yes, probably made him "feel like a man"; and he probably forgot to tell her about the bad back; ulcers, haemorrhoids etc. etc. We separated three times. I snatched at glimmers of hope; hung on to affection; treasured the (many) good times etc; we contiued to have what, on the surface, was a good and often v.pleasant friendship.

I grew - and "took care" of the relationship; he was "unwilling to do anything" - his most recent statement on this was "what is broken cannot be mended" - more likely he does not want to mend it. I have no doubt he cares for me - may even love me in his own "emotionally damaged" way. But just recently after I discovered OW was still lurking somewhere in the bgrd and he refused to end all contact (has promised to do so so many times I probably would not have believed him anyway!).

It sure has taken some time but one night when I was driving home from work - I thought he had gone interstate - I saw the lights on - realised he was at home - my stomach crunched; I turned around and went to a coffee shop - suddenly it was so clear - he would continue this now well established pattern of behaviour if I continued to "nurture" it - hell, what did he have to lose; OW on the side and a warm and comfortable home life - and realisation that I was being "cocntrolled" by his depression (which he acknowledges but refuses to do anything about). As it happens he had stayed home to accompany me to the doctor the next day (I have breast cancer). I can see my "co-dependence" so clearly now - once, I would have been thrilled by this thoughtlessnes. Instead - I soon after asked for some "time out" - he was devastated - and the following week - following a long discussion in which he confirmed that he is "paralysed" where he is - I asked him to leave. It was excruciatingly painful. We both cried - and hugged each other - and said how sad it was - he even asked to stay that night.

But this is what I want to share with you - I am sad; a bit lost - but feel as though a huge burden has lifted from my shoulders. I feel really well; I am positive; I am planning a holiday. I am sleeping well - and I dont spend all day every day (on top of a full time job) - figuring what i can do next - mine must have been the longest Plan A in history - so, it may well be all over - I put a divorce & settlement plan to him. And went to Plan B. And it is the best thing I ever did! I hope it will force him to review and reflect on him/me/OW/us - and whatever the outcome I just know I am going to be OK.

Hugs all round

R

The Grass is not always greener. Affairs can happen at any time. if you have a long term marriage do what ever it take to preserve it.

Rosebrook, I am amazed at how your story sounds like mine. I have tried endlessly (33 yrs) to "save" our M and when the A happened, I went into full-gear-saving mode all the while WS did nothing but waffle and cry, waffle and cry, get depressed, and waffle. I feel exactly the way you feel cause I made the hardest decision of my life......to end the triangle. Someone had to make a decision and I could see that OW and WS were never gonna change anything. I am sad, too and still cry but I do feel such a burden lifted from me. I worked endlessly on myself cause I though changing me was the key to saving us but I cannot change anything else now without WS participation. I am sad but excited about my new life as I look for an apartment. Each time I make a move in the direction of separation, I feel strengthened and lighthearted. When I struggle day after day expecting something from WS, I get heavy hearted and depressed.

WS cannot and will not do anything. He has admitted to not being willing to change anything. He also feels that the damage is too great and unfixable.

How you did that for 4 years is beyond me. You must be exhausted.

The greatest thing-----I have not read one self-help book in a month and a half. Just enjoying myself reading fiction and doing things I enjoy. What a life!!!!!!

TW

Pepper, Tossedwave, Replaced, Hanora, Rosebrook, Tjaa, and other fellow fossils,

First, Hugs to all of you. Thanks for your empathy and kind responses. I take all of your words to heart….

In response to Pepper: I have never met the OW. She is married, but I don’t know if her H knows of the A (she was engaged to her current H, but not married at the time. She married a few years after the A and it is amazing to me that the EA continued throughout her engagement, wedding, and “honeymoon” years). My H has not absolutely refused MC, but neither have I absolutely insisted on it. You’re right…it’s the epitome of conflict avoidance. In my heart I feel that we are over our heads in trying to make it through this by ourselves and that MC would be the best course for us now. We do seem to be making progress and breaking new ground in honesty and openness and respect for each others’ feelings, but there are some very deep hurts (even beyond the A and years of lies) that must be explored and processed. Those who have encouraged MC are right on…and I know it.

Replaced, TW, Hanora, Rosebrook, and others: My heart goes out to you when I read about the long, painful, struggles many of you have endured and the incredible efforts you have made to try to save your M’s. Sometimes I think that making the decision to leave must take courage far beyond that which it takes to stay and fight. But whether you have made the decision to leave, are on the fence, or are in the thick of the battle, I think you are all incredible and I respect you immensely.

For me, for now, the battle goes on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DarkSideoftheMoon:
<strong>...My heart goes out to you when I read about the long, painful, struggles many of you have endured and the incredible efforts you have made to try to save your M’s. Sometimes I think that making the decision to leave must take courage far beyond that which it takes to stay and fight. But whether you have made the decision to leave, are on the fence, or are in the thick of the battle, I think you are all incredible and I respect you immensely...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whew! I couldn't agree more! HUGS & PRAYERS to all!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />