Someone Please Help "us" - Marriage Builders® Forums

Hi everyone, I'm new to this board so please excuse the usage or lack thereof of abbreviations.I recently(going on 2 1/2 weeks now) found out my wife of 1 year been together 4 now, was having an affair.To put this bluntly, her and I dicussed adding "more" to our marriage (a girlfriend for her) sounds crazy I know. anyways she had been talking over the net with this girl and after a couple months decided to meet her. which is fine by me. so, she(my wufe) went to NY to meet this girl, ( she told me all this after the fact of course) she slept with this girl, but didn't like it, well, apparently she had also met a guy online who she had benn talking to for about 2 months,then it turned into phone calls,and guess what? he just happens to live in the same city in NY. so she(my wife) decided to meet him as well, Well I guess they hit it off real well, and she came home and said she had fun with her new girlfriend ( I didn't know about him yet) and she said she wanted to go back up and spend more time with "her", so I said sure you can go, BIG mistake on my part. she went back to NY the following week, and ended up sleeping with him twice(so she says) and when she came back, everything was fine for a couple of days, then she startd acting differently, no making love, less affection towards me. And then we had an arguement about something trivial( I don't remember what it was) and she said she was going to stay at a friends house for awhile. I was missing her and was browsing (Snooping?) around on the web and ran across his yahoo profile, and lo and behold there on the screen was a picture of this guy and her. I almost hit the floor, I couldn't beleive it, So I called her up and confronted her about it, and it was then she told me the whole story. Since that day I have been trying to convince her to come back to me, and all she can say is she's confused.To make matters worse, as a surprise The guy called my wifes friend and told her he was coming to visit her in OH where we are, so now My wife is taying at her friend's house and so is this guy, and I feel totally ignored, we talk occasinally now, but I want him gone. she called me last night crying and said she wanted to leave me and our marriage, and we talked for about an hour,and finaaly resolved it (sorta), she said to call her on monday at 7:00pm (his bus leaves at 6:15pm) . and we will talk then. but the strange thing about it was, she didn't want him to know about it, she was whispering and being really secretive about it, any ideas?So that's where I am today. I am hoping someone will have some advice about this.Oh yeah, it all started because (as she said) I am not being emotionally "there" for her, thats why she did it.I realize(lots of time to think now) that I have done her wrong, The reason is : I never knew I was doing it to her, Before I met her, I had lost a previous steady relationship, and since that time I "shut off" my emotions to the world, and when I met my wife She "brought back" my emotions, well I never realized I wasn't giving it my "all" and that my wife was suffering from it, but I guess she was, and in the past 2 1/2 weeks I have had LOTS of "empty" time to reflect on myself, my life, and our relationship, I realive what I have done wrong, and I feel I have changed, I know I love her, and she knows she loves me,but she also says she loves him, he makes her feel "good" and I asked her how,but she says she don't know, he just does. But anyways, I know I want our marriage to work, and I told her that,I also told her we should go to a marriage counselor, and she more or less agreed, but I feel until he is gone, This could go either way him or me. What do I do???any suggestions?Thanks In Advance. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Torizo,
Welcome to MB. You have come to the right place to learn how to save your marriage as many of us here for the same reason. Follow the link below and learn as much as you can and post occationally for question or update. You have done the right thing with the phone and talking to her. You are doing plan A from a distance.One thing to make it clears that there is no justification to have A while M. Nada. It is her choice to do so. You might contribute some but IT IS HER CHOICE TO DO SO. She could go to counseling or to ask for help if she is not satisfy with her M and probably even divorce you first rather than choose an act of betrayal.A will die sonner or later, you need to hang in there tough and fix her issue(s) about you on the marriage. Learn about EN (emotional need) it will explain "how" he makes her feel good.

Thank you red for the advice, I have been reading everthing on the boards and on the website. still going to be uncertain of anything until we talk on monday @ 7pm.God I miss her.

Small Update, Me and my wife met last night for dinner, and we talked and talked, she has agreed to seeing a marriage counselor, and wants to work our marriage out, but is still unsure of how she feels. She says she still loves OM but has agreed to tell him today that she can have no further contact with him, so we will see how that goes.She is still staying with her friend, but is thinking of coming back home, maybe friday. I hope so, but if not then that is ok, after all, I don't want to rush or push her.Any advice at this point would be helpful.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Any advice at this point would be helpful.<hr></blockquote>Torizo, we give opinion, 2¢, and supports, for advice you get it from your MC. It seems that you are doing very good. Just hang in there and keep on working on your plan A and do change "old you". Make it safe for her to come home ... just try to rebuild from whatever is left. It seems she needs that assurance. Be patience.

Well, Looks like this is my last post in this catagory. Me and the wife talked today, and she said she had made a decision, she has decided to leave for good. (crushing my entire world) Then she says her and her friend (female) she is staying with are going with her friends mom to pick up her moms sister in West Virginia and wouldn't be back til' tomorrow, I told her I was going to drop all her stuff off to her either today or tomorrow. I get to her friends house and go on in (like I always do, they never lock their door) and low and behold my wife is at the computer, and stnding next to her is the "other man" (the one she had the affair with). [Later to be explained by my now Ex wife as "I didn't know he was coming up here] (Yeah whatF#@*ingever) So I unloaded all her stuff, told her if she wants it over to file the papers, and she said she would. she had some other things to say but I left and did not let her finish, ( I know thats bad, but at this point I dont think it matters any more)And her reason for leaving : She wasn't happy with me anymore. I have tried my hardest to show her happines, But it still wasn't good enough.Now I'm all alone... Just me and the cat...And to make matters worse I also was laid off this week. All this right before christmas.Any comments?Merry Christmas to you all, may your christmas be better than mine.

What can I say, except I know the pain you are feeling and what you are going through is terrible. However, I know it sounds like all is lost, but try to take things slow right now and get yourself together. Get a support system in place - family, friends, someone hwho you can talk to. You'll be sad, angry, frustrated etc.
but let the feelings flow. It sounds like everything happened so fast that neither you or your WW has had time to even realize what just happened. Things are often said in anger and she doesn't even really know this guy - he could use her for whatever and then dump her next week.Give yourself some time, be nice to her if she calls, and then figure out what you want. There is still a chance for things to turn around. She still has to file for a divorce - and talk is cheap. If you want to give the marriage a second chance, I'd fill out teh EN and LB questionaire - for both of you and work on a Plan A until something definitive happens. It can't hurt and then you'll at least be able to look back adn say that you did all you could - plus you'll be a much better stronger person for doing the Plan A. With time you'll feel better(easy to say I know), but start posting on the GQII board or Plan A/Plan B board and see that ther eare alot of people who have been there and done that and can help get you through this tough time. Stay strong. K

Thanks. We have been essentially plan Aing from the day she decide to move in with a friend, We have also done all the questionaires and I have been reading the book "his needs her needs" A WONDERFUL book I might add.I have a few people to talk to, but most of all you all here on the MBs, You have been nothing short of the best and I thank you.I have tried to be as nice as possible to her and try to meet her needs, though it seems to have little effect. I only hope she realizes hwhat she is giving up.And if she don't, I hope her new life is a happy one. I hate to say this, I love her with all my heart and soul, I love her more than anyone I've ever been with, But I'm not going to "Wait" forever. I am going to move forward with my life and try to make the best of it. With or (I hope not) without her.God Bless.

Torizo,
Until you Dv is finalized, nothing is concrete. You just LB'ed, all she remembered is your last action. Wait it out, both of you acting up in anger. As you see, she is in and out of the fog. This time is in the fog. Do you know why from the night before she said to w/ MC and the next is not ?. What is your take in this ?. Just curious.

I have no clue, It sometimes just does not make sense to me.I feel helpless at this point, it is frustrating to not be able to do anything.I can only hope in time she calls me and wants to talk.

Torizo,
After you are LB, you should be the man who appologize or try to mend the water, don't wait if you can but no LB. I was LB big time last weekend, I told her what I think about her behavior and the impact. It is the fact but it is big LB. I appologize later and told her, using fogese language, I was LB'ed b/c I love her and my family too much. She just sneered and angry for a few days but later on she allows me to have kiss her in the cheek again & even lips. I am back in business. IMVHO, you should contact her and tell her how sorry you are. You are in danger of pushing her too far, use my fogese lingo. we scare because we care ... what a fogese word, a hint from Disney & pixar.You see we are impatience b/c we loved so much the WS, we just have to focus our love to diff. actions. Rather than tyring to 'fix' her or the relation, you avoid LB !!!!. It is hard but this is part of plan A. You spill a drop of major LB, you have to start over at whatever point she allows you to, sometime wiped out all of your effort. If you do make it as a habit you will definitly be an stbx.Try to focus on the end goals of plan A and treat her like an insane person that you care so much about her. So anything that she will say or will do is forgiven up front. My 9 y/o D had to tell me this [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] , she said that "Mommy is insane", it knocked my head like w/ 2x4. Her defense mechanism could see it through.When you start expecting something, try to expect the worst of her behavior. This way if she behaves diff. is bonus to you. As you read my bit and pieces on other thread, I am in OR on skiing trip, my WW didn't want to go. When my 2 D left town earlier w/ their freinds. I expect my WW to disappear and avoid seeing me leaving town for my skiing trip w/ my 2 D but to my surprise she stayed over night w/ me (she had not done that alone) and gave me kiss to send me away in the morning when I have to go. I expect that she has a plan w/ OM, even going to winter place since she is trying to find out the wherehouse where I got my $10 skii jacket, I know is not for this trip, she is not coming, I am ready. I am proud that I am not LB ... when I left I saw a slight guilt in her eyes, probably I was reading it too much, but again I just wish her merry christmas and gave her her present ( I got lips kiss [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ). (I stay here through 'till end of next week) You see, IT IS HER CHOICE TO STAY and w/o LB she will have to face her time with OM as her choice and she doesn't have any excuse for it. Let them stare at A point blank and take the fog (excuse/justification) out of it. If she is decent W and M material, she will have to do selfreflection of her choice.IMHVO, do call her or contact her asap.

Thanks Redhat, We just got off the phone (she called me), and she wanted to make sure I'm alright, (and not doing anything kooky) I told her as well as can be expected. I asked her if she really wants it to be over and she said yes, but there was a hesitation in her, like she doesn't know for sure. and before she hung up I told her I was truly sorry for my actions yesterday, and I should have stayed to listen to her, I told her how it has been an honor to be with her these four years and that there is no one else like her, and that I will lover her no matter what happens. she started crying (I could hear it in her voice) and she said she would call me again at a later time, then we said a very solemn and quiet goodbye.I hope I didn't do anything wrong by saying those things, and I can only hope there is still some shred of hope for us.Maybe for now I am still in this post and hopefully will not be moved to the D post.Only time will tell.....

Torizo,You are doing good, it is fine to say what your feeling too but no judgment, no expectation, no anger but straight facts, fact about how much you love her. The fact that she called she is at least worry about you and care about you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] treasure this when you are down side of 'coaster. Hang in there, plan A hard, I even sometime have to "plan" what to say w/ what if plan. Let her be amused w/ "new you" , w/ deep patience.Good luck, I am glad it lifted a bit. keep at plan A'ng. My WW yet has to do that (filed) after screaming 3 months ago [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]

Thank you all for the support, I guess now its all a game of waiting, because it is on her terms now, she decides if and when she wants to talk, and she decides if she wants to work it out or end it all. I have made clear to her I want to work it out, and I want to go on. As well as MC.
I have forgiven her for the A but she says she can not forgive herself for the A. I want so desperately to help her, but she needs time to figure it out for herself.And she is the only person who can do that.So now the waiting begins.....

Me and my wife just talked,(I called her), To see if she has checked her email (I sent her some scanned notes she wrote to me when we first got together) (Found them while going through some boxes), anyways she said yes that she got them and told me I only sent them to make her feel guilty,(which I did not, I was hoping to "jumpstart" some memories), and I told her it wasn't to make her feel guilty, and then told her I just wanted her to think about this and if it might really be a mistake, I heard OM say something and she said she had to go, and she would find time to sit down and "talk" to me later. I told her how much I loved her, and she kinda half-whispered I love you back.What do you make of that?It's like she is torn between two worlds, one she wants him happy and one she wants me happy.I just don't understand it, she says she wants to be "free" yet still tells me she loves me, yet doesn't want him to hear it.A little strange if you ask me.[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Talked to W again on phone, we talked some small talk and I asked her for another chance, she still says we'll talk later, It's driving me insane, I want to know one way or the other. I know I want her back, but I'm staring to feel That she REALLY does not want to work this out. So she said she was eating dinner, and would call me back.About an hour later I called her (just finished reading his needs, her needs. EXCELLENT book) and wanted to know if I got her the book would she read it, Well... OM answered the phone, and I asked if Christi(my wife) was there, he said she was sleeping, I know its BullS*!^, for 2 reasons 1)she was just eating and wouldn't be in bed yet and 2) he asked whomever was around if she was there, and it seemed obvious to me that she told him to say it. So I told him what the F^$# ever and hung up.I'm now to the point of I am having doubts about going on with trying to work this marriage out, and have even gone to the point of looking up the ohio Divorce laws and procedures.I don't want to, but it seems that, that is what she wants, and even if it is at the cost of my happiness, I want to make her happy. If it is truly a D she wants, But I have to really sit and talk with her, without the distraction of OM. But he is here until at least new years.What is a confused person to do?Just sit and wait it out or (Shudder to think of) go ahead and end it?I just don't know anymore.Help please?

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

I feel like I'm talking to myself. LOL [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] anyways talked to wife again and convinced her to read the book his needs her needs and then tell me what she thinks. (She is unsure of if she wants to go on with M but leans more towards she don't want M to go on). I confessed my undying eternal love for her, and she says she loves me but she loves OM too, I sked her if there was enough love for me, to fight for our marriage, and her reply is "that's what I'm trying to figure out". I told her I love her and how much she means to me,(just short of breaking down into tears), I told her I truly cherish her and that I have never wanted more than to make her happy, she has my heart in her hands, and I only hope the book will have the same effect on her as it has had on me,(A wake up call). She is my goddess, and the only thing is this world I truly care about, (ok well maybe you all here on the MBs too. wink wink) and I HAVE to make this better otherwise I will feel I have failed, Not only her but myself as well, If I lose her, I feel I will have failed as a husband and a friend.Any Imput at this point would be helpful...
I pick up her copy of the book tomorrow morning, I hope it is as much a revelation to her as it was to me.She is still unsure about MC at this point, I told her to let me know by monday, as the appt. is on wed @ 2:00pm.And I either need to cancel or confirm.

Torizo,
I do not know what you are trying to accomplish. Reread all the prior post and they gave you their opinions LEARN ABOUT PLAN A. In the rate you are going I don't know what might happen. Keep posting it will a notable notes about not what to do in plan A. Good luck on your M.

I am trying to accomplish getting my wife back, but it seems I'm a little off track.I'm confused and hurt at this point, and it sometimes makes no sense.

Torizo,Just think of it you are in the tunnel, you have to focus the end of it. If you wonder like this you are focusing on a fright train's light that will run you over if you do not avoid it. That train is your LB. DO NOT PUSH HER. Get busy on other aspect of your life and not letting any time idle. Get MC that practice MB and also get a support from others too. Someone ( no female )that could be there in a moment notice.

Good advice, I just dropped off her copy of his needs, her needs. and picked up a book for myself, how one of you can bring the two of you together.She'll call me later,and I'm going to tell/ask her to read the book and I will not say another word about our problems or getting back together until she finishes the book, then we will talk about it. In the meantime, after he goes back no NY if she would like to go on a couple "dates" we could do that, and essentially "start over", and make the wrongs between us right.I only hope I'm doing the "right" thing. I'm not trying to "push" her, But perhaps I'm trying too hard?

A quick question : Hypothetically speaking, if she is "willing" (which she seems to be anyways) to read the book, might she still have feelings whether conscious or un-conscious of trying to salvage our M? (because I know the book was an awakening for me).

Almost time to give up I'm afraid...We just got off the phone me and W. Come to find out OM is now "officially" living here and has even proceded to apply for a job near to W friends house where W & OM are staying.She (W) is now almost adamant about leaving me, I "bargained" with her to Read Chapter 13 first then start the book at the beginning, and call me tomorrow with her feelings about it and "us".But now, with him here and her reluctance to stop being with him, It all seems lost.She told me on the phone that she loves him and hasn't loved me for awhile, she don't know when it happened or what changed it, she just don't love me.I have now come to the darkest day in my life...Tomorrow will decide it all. M or D. I unfortunately feel I have done what I could, and only fate can decide it now.Damn, This is all some bad nightmare from which I can't wake up.I will update tomorrow sometime with (Probably my last post).Thank you all for your support, I ask only that you pray for me in my time of need.Time Is Endless...Until You Run Out...

Torizo,
Bookmark your posts and look it up years from now, see what you are missing. You have not heard a squat on what we try to tell you. Good luck.

It's Over...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
It's Over...<hr></blockquote>It is never over ... she was part of yourlife, she might still be in the future. The pain will be there for a while regardless. I pray for you and for your WW and hope that OM is not ready to take her.She choose A, you have no control of it but calling it quit is within your control. My question is what make you arrived to this decision ?. Let it out and don't tune it down. I try to see your point fo view ... you know you are trying too hard. You still love her and focusing on the wrong path.

I'm sorry if I'm trying too hard, and see that, but now its too late, Within a month we wil be going for a seperation agreement and then dissolution of marriage to follow. It is what she wants, and I want her to be happy, and she wants a D.We have agreed, that we both are a BIG part of each others lives, and have agreed to remain friends, even after D.Who knows what the future holds... She or he may discover it to be a mistake, or they may stay together forever. Either way... I stand by her decisions.And I told her, if this is what she wants then she can have it, but I can't put my life on hold for her, I must continue on.
and if the fates decide may we cross paths again, and she understands that.We talked about all this today, and she said she feels bad for all this, but she can't ignore what her heart says for OM. She also said she'd call me tomorrow,because she feels bad for me being alone on christmas.What other choice now do I have But D? She wants it(D), I don't, I beleive we CAN fix our M, But she don't think so.What to do...

Torizo,
Don't feel sorry about your action, you just love her too much and panic. Again it never too late !!!. You got suck right into her fog now. She still have some feeling to you but she is afraid of you too. You make the environment not safe for her to come back.Now, answer me - If WW & you could build fulfilling M better than in the past would you do it ?. Working on it ?. If you do look at MB, read HNHN, SAA also browse though notable posts. I were you I will call MB conseling and make appointment ASAP. I don't think you are do it yourself type.There is nothing new on "wanting a Dv", it is an easy way out for her and also probably for you too. Focus on plan A - list all of her issue(s) on the relation. Read up on LB and avoid it.And I told her, if this is what she wants then she can have it, but I can't put my life on hold for her, I must continue on.
and if the fates decide may we cross paths again, and she understands that.
It is easier for you to work on plan A, you let it go.We talked about all this today, and she said she feels bad for all this, but she can't ignore what her heart says for OM. She also said she'd call me tomorrow,because she feels bad for me being alone on christmas.
She is in the deep fog "I am feeling bad hurting you and I will continue on ?". There is nothing new theme in here. You have to focus on plan A.What other choice now do I have But D?
Plenty, plan A'ng - those alone will get you busy. Dv will take time anyway and she still have to file.She wants it(D), I don't, I beleive we CAN fix our M, But she don't think so.
My WW wants it and I don't, I beleive we CAN fix my M, But she don't think so ... familiar ? that is my story too. I plan A'ng my butt out, she stops saying Dv and once a while I saw confusion in her eyes. I am patience. A will die, show her your love ... let her know you don't want sparation and no demand ask, you just want to work on yourself, fixing yourself so that for your next relation you won't make mistake again. Ask her help to spot what is wrong with relation ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Get her help to plan A'ng herself !!!. Look at the posting around you, learn, learn, learn and focus.

Red you are a good person, And I'm sorry I'm so "unfocused" and stubborn.I know what I want, and I want her to want the same. Unfortunately in my mind , There's nothing I can really do, until A dies.I tell her I love her, and how much she means to me, and she tells me "she honestly believes I do love her like I say". But she also says "but for her things have changed, she thinks she has fallen for him the way she fell for me" I want to show her I have "learned" from my mistakes, I want to prove to her I have in fact changed. But our only contact now is the phone once in awhile and email. I would like to go on a "date" with her, but she says she can't now, not with OM here, and unfortunately OM is now Moving here from NY, She hasn't said so, but I think they are planning to get a place together. I "feel" it.My hopes are this/these : A will die in one of two ways : 1) She will realize what she had with me, and want to come back. or 20 OM wont be able to deal with her mood swings and assorted problems and get rid of her.The question is will she be willing to fix M then Or will it still head for D?I DO NOT want a D, that is actually the last thing I want, After her Xmas phone call, I think we will have very little contact, if any and maybe she will then realize what she is doing.we shall see...Just in case I don't get back on til' tomorrow, Try and have a good christmas.
And Thank you for "putting up" with me.

Some things just got to be said. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
Red you are a good person, And I'm sorry I'm so "unfocused" and stubborn. <hr></blockquote>Been there. I am as stubborn and unfocused as they come. Ask RedHat. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I know what I want, and I want her to want the same. Unfortunately in my mind , There's nothing I can really do, until A dies.<hr></blockquote>You can't fix her. I tried for a while to fix my WW. It doesn't work. It's kind of like teaching pigs to sing. It wastes your time and anoy's the pig (RedHats going to love that [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I want to show her I have "learned" from my mistakes, I want to prove to her I have in fact changed.<hr></blockquote>She will see this. It may take time. Paitence is all you have now. You will need to make contact with her now and again. She will see these changes then. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
The question is will she be willing to fix M then Or will it still head for D?<hr></blockquote>Unless you show her that she has a safe place to "come home to" she will not come home. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I DO NOT want a D, that is actually the last thing I want, After her Xmas phone call, I think we will have very little contact, if any and maybe she will then realize what she is doing.we shall see...<hr></blockquote>No, she won't. She may find out that she was happier with you or that she is just unhappy with him. The likelyhood of the "What was I thinking?" realization is slim and may take years if ever. That's not the point. The point is to get past this to a place where you and her can work togeather.You have to step back and work on you. Work plan A it makes you a better H for whoever you end up with (hopefully her). I hate saying this because it was the most difficult lesson to learn. Time is a great healer. Time can repair things that we can'tTrying to force a resolution will only work against you.(I know this from experiance) Making yourself more apealing to her will bring you closer, and give you somthing to work on/do in the mean time.My prayers go with you.Thanks
Rev[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]

ok lemme see if I get this, To get her back I have to stop trying to change her, I can only change me. How do I "show her" home is a "safe place"? (I think I missed this point somewhere)

How do I "show her" home is a "safe place"? (I think I missed this point somewhere)[/QB][/QUOTE]Don't do or say anything that LB's. (love busts)
When you lb, it will cause her to repel from you. It is her inner defence system that tells her to stay away from you because when she is near you it hurts. When she is with him it feels good. You have to make her feel safe with kind words and actions so that she will be attracted to you the way you where when you first met. This may take time so you will have to practice patience like you never have before. Work on yourself, focus on yourself, take a good look at yourself and forget about them for now. Don't keep calling her, wait for her to call you and when she does, don't talk about OM, the A or any of the such. Tell her what you have learned about yourself and how you are learning the importance of meeting her needs. Tell her that you miss her and hope to see her soon and leave it at that. If she says somthing that hurts, take it with a grain of salt and let it bounce off of you as bad as it may hurt. Let the conversation end with a good note for her to think about, not an angry note for her to make her run to OM.
There is hope, don't throw in the towel so soon.SH

Torizo,
Check out rev journal too ... I have to chase him down more than to you ... I am Californian, minding too much other people bussiness, couldn't you tell [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Again look around this forum, there are many past your path, worst path than yours and still recover. Listen to stilhurts, check up people profiles, you will see that you are throwing the towel too early.

Thanks SH, She is the one who initiates most calls, though now it's going to be all calls. I try to say how much I love her, and how much she means to me. I have even done some searching in my soul and have realized it has been an honor to be with her, and I tell her that every chance I get. I don't know if its absolutely the "right" thing to do, but At least I get an emotional response then. When I talked to her earlier, she answered the phone crying, I asked her what was wrong? and she said she was thinking of me and how it must feel to be alone for the holiday, and how if it was her she couldn't deal with it the way I am, I simply told her, yes it hurts to not have you here, but it's the love I have for you that keeps me going. and she kinda sobbed at that but didn't say anything.
We now rarely talk about A and OM anymore, her talk seems to be focused on D, which we talked about as well, neither of us has the $$$ for it right now, and she told me there is no real hurry.Women are sooo confusing sometimes.I know what I haven't done for her, and I've told her that, and it doesn't seem to affect her any.I just wish she would meet me somewher, so we can talk face to face or maybe spend some time together. but I know it won't happen, she's too involved in OM.So I guess now I work on me, and kind of put her "on the back burner" so to speak, until she calls me, then I can tell her how much she means to me, and how much I care, and how I want her to be "happy".oh, and no LB.Thank you all for the support.

Torizo,
I don't Christmas present from my WW but you just gave me one. Learn from rev, his W is similar to yours ... need a lot of carefull handeling. This is the day of your enlightment as rev called his.
About W, "She love you but not in love with you", a fogese talk, what you do is make her in love again with you and MB will equip you with it. You know that you are way ahead than me & rev on your relation ?. Go for it, she still have a deep feeling for you. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

the thing is, how do I make her "in love" with me again. Things have changed alot in four years, But I think I'm rediscovering it now, I only wish I had some time "with" her, together, But I suppose that will come in time, Now I can only tell her what she means to me and how much I love her, I suppose enough of that and not focusing on A, OM, or D right now, and I may just be able to "reach" her.Wait a minute, is this what you would call enlightenment? where you realize your "mission"?I can't say it enough, you all are wonderful people. Without you, I don't know where I'd be now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Torizo,Wait a minute, is this what you would call enlightenment? where you realize your "mission"?enlightenment is rev's term, not mine [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I can't take credit for it. I am a lost soul and my LORD has to smack me in the head to bring me back and HE has something for me, a ministry to help trouble M, I will volunteer in my church once I sort my M out & going through MB training. I do not think I will be very effective if I have not walk through it, no one will understood the pain that BS endured. I compelled by your posting and my presistant payoff. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Now you are ready to work on your M and when you are ready I hope you return the favor to help others (as part of your healing). God Bless you and Merry Christmas.

I truly am ready to work on my M but now she has to want the same. Until then, Here I stay on the MB, for advice, and perhaps to give advice.Good luck to all, have a merry christmas, and god bless.

we just got off the phone, we said merry christmas to each other, (she was very sad)and told each other to say merry christmas to our respective families. I asked her how she was, and spent the next 5 minutes telling her how much she means to me, how much I love her, and that my heart and home are always open to her, as well as if she ever needs someone to talk to, I'm always here for her. I could hear the sadness in her voice as she spoke, I told her I love her very much and her reply is always "I don't doubt that and I never have."and she said she had to go, I told her I love her again, and we said our goodbyes...I miss her...But, I must go on...I have to keep positive, and keep telling her How much she means to me, whenever I can.Merry Christmas Everyone,and God Bless.

Torizo,
I know it's not fun being where you are, but there is good in this. Take a look: <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
We now rarely talk about A and OM anymore, her talk seems to be focused on D, which we talked about as well, neither of us has the $$$ for it right now, and she told me there is no real hurry.Women are sooo confusing sometimes.<hr></blockquote>Yes, they are. Take a close look above that though. There is no real hurry to get D. This is a change. It also give you the time you need. You may not get much "face to face" time, but it is the time that heals. It is also time for you to work on you so that when you get "face to face" time you are prepared for it and make it as productive as possible. (or at least you won't screw it up and make things worse than thy are [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I know what I haven't done for her, and I've told her that, and it doesn't seem to affect her any.<hr></blockquote>Sory kiddo. Like I said before, she's not going to let you see that your making any headway. Trust in the RedHat, the RedHat is good. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] She is seeing what you are doing. If she didn't see, you would still be on the fast track to D. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I just wish she would meet me somewher, so we can talk face to face or maybe spend some time together. but I know it won't happen, she's too involved in OM.<hr></blockquote>That's true for now. Funny how perceptive we can be to the negative in life, but we miss the positive. Let's take a minute to reflect on the fact that we aren't moving as quickly twards D as we once were. Sometimes progress is hard to see, and sometimes we have to look at life a little backwards to see it. I think we would both agree that heading for a train wreck isn't good, but its better than quickley heading for a train wreck. If your not headed there quickley, you can still change the outcome. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
So I guess now I work on me, and kind of put her "on the back burner" so to speak, until she calls me, then I can tell her how much she means to me, and how much I care, and how I want her to be "happy".oh, and no LB.Thank you all for the support.<hr></blockquote>
This is the tough part, my friend, but you are well on your way to winning the big prize with this one.Off topic note:I never realy realized what it took to make my M work, untill the day my W moved out. Even then, I knew I wasn't doing the right thing, but I didn't know what the right thing was. Then I found this website. I read everything I could here untill I could get a couple of the books. I began to understand how to make my M and my life better than it had been in the past. Finding this site, understanding the implications of what I read and putting the theories into practice so that my M and my life could be better than it was before is what I call "Enlightnenment".You have found this site. You have understood the change that can be made to improve yourself and your M. You are makeing an effort to follow the path set before you to make a better life and M for yourself. I think you qualify for the title and so does RedHat. This does not say that you or any of us are perfect. Only that we try our best to improve ourselvs and our M's.Sory man, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Feel free to hijack mine somtime.My thoughts, hopes, and prayers go with you.Thanks
Rev

Merry Christmas,
You are doing good! What realy helped me when I was in your shoes was telling her what I was learning about myself while we were apart. As you read and learn from this web site and form books share what you have learned about yourself with her. This will spark intrest that will draw her attention towards you. You must present yourself as a strong and loyal husband one that she can still come to for saftey and comfort and have a tone in your voice that tells her you are genuine. Do not have a desprate tone of voice. Don't try to smother her with "I love you, I love you, I love you...." She knows that you love her, show her that you have been enlightend and yes its good to let her know that she is welcome to come home. Good luck.SH

Very Good Point(s) in all of this, I suppose life is a little backwards sometimes and I need to look at it that way.I also learned, that it takes someone else to point out the "good" things of a "bad" situation.Not to get "off subject", when she filled out ENQ, her first 3 ENs on the list are : affection(which all of this has made me see I wasn't giving it to her), Recreation(Same as above, But We didn't do enough of the things she likes), and admiration(which I have told her repeatedly since this happened how much of an honor it's been being with her, though I'm not sure if that falls under admiration or affection [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] )It's hard to give affection(other than telling her how much she means and how much I love her, and want to work on this) over the phone and its really hard to have recreation over the phone [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .But hey, I'm trying, and trying not to say or do any LBs. But I think I've learned to "bite my tongue" when I need to.Time is all thats left... time to think...and time to heal...But if I had a delorean that ran on plutonium..... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Merry Christmas...

Torizo,
I've been watching your posts today. Please tell me your not sitting in front of your computer staring at the forum gateway waiting for the next reply like I am. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
It's hard to give affection(other than telling her how much she means and how much I love her, and want to work on this)<hr></blockquote>How is she on cards and gifts? My W is big on that kind of thing. I leave small stuffed animals, chocolate, or cards in her car to find or other places that will supprize her. I don't go overboard in size, but I do this a 2+ times a week. I always get a call of apreciation. I like the apreciation, but it's not the point. The point is to show her I care. If she calls, I get time to talk to her and show the new me.Let me know what you think.Thanks
Rev[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]

Hi Torizo,You have been getting good support. You have shown amazing strength during this time. Continue to post your thoughts and feelings here. Rev is doing good himself and has given you many points to help you. Funny how much we can glean from situations similar to our own. Redhat, Stillhers and others are also making good points. So for what it is worth, here are mine. While you are trying your best to show her your best, make sure you take care of yourself. What your W did was highly disrespectful of your and your marriage. She is very confused right now as you have seen. You have a choice to ride this rollercoaser and hang on every word, thought and deed she does or work on yourself and pay attention to her consistent actions. Let her know you love her but that you do not condone her disrespect. How do you do that? Read up on plan A and B under the basic concepts section. I think you said you read his needs/her needs? Good if not read it. Then take a look at the book, 'Love must be tough. It is by Dr James Dobson. He gets referenced here a lot because when the WS is out there having their fling, the emotional pain on the BS is incredible. You will look back and wonder how you survived. But survive you will. The point between now and then is cruicial to your survival. Learn from those who have travel thed this road before you. Sometimes they will say things that may sound illogical but remember that is the kind of person our spouses have become and soe of the methods used are very illogical but work with the WS. Listen to all and then pick out the ones that best suit your situation. Don't follow what everyone says to the T because your situation will have it's variances. I say, pick out the good and discard the bad. Another thing is that anxiety attacks even with the guys is common. Beaware and prepared. A visit to your counselor and doctor may be wise. Let them know what you are facing and they can help. Remember these are aides not permanent fixes. Only the 2 of you can do that and even if you are doing all you can, unless she is willing to work on the M, it will not happen. However in the interim you can work on becoming a better person and in time she will see that. My H went from blaming me for his A to absolving me in front of the OW. This angered the OW and she is still trying to figure out where she went wrong (just 3 days ago). Hey, I'm not going to tell her that she LB'd big time and many times at that. I am not going to give her any ammonition to use against me. She is very good at that and your OP maybe also. You are dealing with 2 types of OPs and that is hard. But T, you can do it. Ok? We are here to help. I will send both you and rev a thread that helped me it is from a dad on the divorce site here at mb. I think you will like it. I will try to send it by the end of the day. Take care,
L.

Rev, Unfortunately, I am. I just went to dinner at my dad's and now I'm back to stare at the Boards... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

You all have VERY good Points, The only problem with the gifts rev, is she lives 50 miles from me now, thats 100 miles round trip, and unfortunately the snow has begun falling here in ohio, but I will try to make it a habit to drop off a gift once a week at least.also, as for plan A, I sent my W this letter on 12/14/01, when this all started(or at least me being here @ MB.Hi honey, I wanted to write to you a letter of how I feel in the hopes that I could express my total feelings. I know we have had our good times and with those, our bad times. I have had feelings that we got lost along the way, somewhere between work and normal everyday life. I think somewhere, somehow we, or I, forgot what it was all for, what we meant to each other. I think the routine of life got in the way of the love I feel for you. I am very sad that it took the knowledge of your affair to make me realize how much I love you. I am very sorry that it happened and I would do anything to have you do it over again but we know what has happened is real and nothing can change it, and it will always be with us. I do feel we can use this to better our marriage and make it so much better. I am sorry I have neglected you and I haven't been there for you when you needed me, this I can change though, I promise I will make every attempt to be there for you when you need me. I feel that I am partly at blame because I wasn't always there for you, and I am sorry. I know that you have felt as much pain as I, and I don't know that I could make it through this by myself, but with you by my side I will try my very best to help you through this, I only ask that you be patient with me: forgiveness will come with time. When I first learned of the infidelity I wanted nothing to do with you, and I had hate running through my body. I realize now that I never hated you, I was very angry, confused, and in total shock, the truth is I love you and you hurt me a lot. Now, I know that I can get past this I can move on and eventually I will forgive you because I love you. I really hope that you can forgive yourself and stay by my side to help me forgive you. One year ago I married you. I loved you more than you can imagine. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with you and make a family. It was the happiest day of my life , even though I was so nervous , I knew it was what I wanted. When I stood in that church in front of God, I gave you all of me, I gave you all of my love and all of my heart. I knew we could go from that church and become the best husband and wife ever, and in time the best family. I knew that nothing could stop the love I had for you, and with that nothing could stop us. Now I feel that same love again, Somewhere along the long road that has led us to this point that love faded, but never left. I knew I loved you, but forgot how much I really love you, now I remember. I just was to busy with work and life to see It. As painful as this has been, It has made me see how much I love you, I never lost the love, it was always there. When I stood in that church and gave you my heart I knew that over the years you might not take care of it or you might hurt it. Now I know you have broken it, but I don't want to take it back, I want you to keep it. I just want you to help me to put all the pieces back together. I want you to hold it close and take very good care of it because as you know it is very delicate and easily broken. And if you do this for me I will continue to give you all my love. 
Sincerely
Your loving husband
P.S. You will always be the love of my life.I found the letter in the forums, and I wish I could give credit to the person who wrote it, but I forgot their name. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (I of course changed a few things)and since then it has been a real rollercoaster of emotions and events. her saying she wants D, Me taking her all her stuff, her even telling me what she wants when we do D. I nor her have the $$$ for D, and besides that, she HAS to wait at least 6 months(5 now) before she can even file, Ohio law says you must live in the county you file for a min. of 6 months. and when she left she changed counties.
(Bet she didn't think of that) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] So I at least know a "time frame" in which to work at this...now to work on me...

T,I wondered where you went. I took a break myself. Folded some clothes then took some time for me. Put on the headset, some Natalie Merchant, and went to town on my drums.Feeling a bit better now.Orchid is right, take what you need and leave the rest here. No one here can live through this for you nor can any of us make decisions for you. This is your life. You have to look at yourself in the mirror. I'm not just talking about integrity here. Integrity is a factor, but you can't get through this tired and worn out. We can't function at the top of our game unless we care for ourselves. I have to hit somthing once in a while to maintain my sanity. If you don't play drums this probably isn't a good outlet for you, but I think you get my point. Eat nutritiously, get the rest you need, vent when you need, excercise if you must [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , but take good care of yourself.Always remember to care for yourself first. You may get a chance to care for W later, and you want to be in good shape to do that.Thanks
Rev

Right now Taking care of me means finding a job, got laid off last tuesday(1 week before christmas, how nice of them)and thats my current thing, I told my W that after I get a new job, I'm probably moving somewhere less expensive rent-wise, and I'll contact her with the new address and phone #. she said ok, and that she would always be there, and I could email her @ any time I wanted.sometimes it almost feels like plan B, but we still have contact.At this moment I'm trying, not so much so push her to save M as I am to still be "friends", But I can hear it in her voice when we talk, she is so sad, and sounds like she could just break down at any moment and cry,(which she usually does when I tell her how I cherish her and every moment spent together or talking). but she always tries to hide it. And yet at the same time, she seems adamant about being with OM and thats what she wants.(though I don't know if she "feels" that way thas what she "tells" me.but as I said, I know I have to work on me, I even have a "plan" though I don't know yet how it's going to work out.Get a new job(preferably more $$$ than last job), If job 1 doesn't pay more than possibly a part-time job too, less bills, and maybe get some "extra" $$$ saved up, possibly go to local gym(Wifes cooking put on a few extra pounds [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , contiue reading books, and visiting MB, and essentially make a whole new me. I think I and I hope she will like the me I "can" become.Only time will tell...

Torizo,
What a small cyber world ... I am an alumni of CWRU'85 (CIT). I am watching lifetime and he just told her about his new girl freind. EN at play ... now they got married ... argh ! Anyway, I am flipping between this board and TV. sorry.

Wow A Fellow Ohio Person, Ya know you shouldn't watch the lifetime channel,nothing but bad things to watch at our emotinal state. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Oh what to do ???

I used to lived at Lakewood, OH. while I am at school. Now I live at SF, CA. I saw you had posted your profile, that is good. If you have time go through notable posts. It is a collection of MB veteran's wisdom. I visit and reread some posts once in a while, it help me a lot.

Currently in Lakewood Oh, Born and raised here, W is from AZ, We met when she moved up here with family, and family moved back to AZ, she stayed here because we met, and had decide to form a R, and move in together. Wow, seems so long ago nw, even though it was only four years ago.If only the clock could be turned back.... If only I had paid more attention to her...But, we can't change the past, or even the present, we can only alter the future...

WOW !!!, I use to lived in the apt. next to the mortuary across the police station. God has a way to show us that HE is in control.Here is one of my favorite, a reply on Who is this person I married? by harddaynight, a plea from a WS. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Can you say FOG,FOG,FOG,FOG....I have something that I will share that may make you see things more clearly. I preached that I would never cheat on my husband, I was the perfect wife(far from it I know now). After twenty plus years I met a man. I told him no, no, no, he persisted. I ended up moving out of my husbands house. For the first time in my life I lived alone. I was seeing this man talking only(not cheating in my mind). After a month or so of my Husband calling me every name in the book, wishing death on me etc. I willingly fell into the OM arms. We are now married, my ex filed for divorce shortly after I moved out. I know he spoke out of anger, fear, hurt. Well three years into the relationship with my current H I find that it was all built on lies. He needed a strong woman to stand by him to face what he is facing now. My whole relationship with him was built on lies. I am still married to him, but with hindsight I now recognize the fog I was in. So in my opinion it is never too late as my ex could have won me over many times before I actually married this H. He just didn't know how close he was to doing it and gave up. I am now closer to my ex then ever before because I walk in his shoes now and know the heartache and pain of being married to someone like me. I will tell everyone on here if you want your spouse regardless of the hurt and pain they have caused you fight for them. Even when the battle seems lost it might not be. I am fighting for this marriage because my ex did not fight for ours. I refuse to keep hopping from one marriage to another and I think that we are worth the effort. At least I pray we are. Just my two cents worth. Jenni<hr></blockquote>I have to wait until I compose my self everytime I read this. I do not want to be her exH.

I live near steve barry buick on detroit. Not that far away.wow, thats something, I wonder if my W feels that way, or if she will feel that way.I only wish I knew, but thats life, we can't look ahead in time, we can only take it day by day.My W is lost in the fog, she is confused. I only hope she begins to "see" what is going on.

I think it is a bad thing to "think about things" sometimes. I was thinking about all of our phone calls since this all started and was wondering to myself : if she "seems" to have "doubts" about what she is doing, then why stay so adamant about not working it out, and D?or am I just perceiving it wrong and she really "Does" want to leave and be done with M, and I'm holding on to "false hopes"?Just a thought that crossed through my mind.BTW, tomorrow she is changing all the bills from her name to my name tomorrow, I live here, and I pay the bills. Which is another thing, she says she is "unhappy" with me, yet she hasn't had to work much during our time together, a year out of the four we've been together. and now, if OM don't make enough $$$ she'll have to go to work, I just thought of that, I wonder if she has.I mean obviously that is not one of her "unmet" ENs, but it was another thought of mine.Hmmm...It's nice to have somewhere to vent and get advice. Thanks for your support.

T, does this really make sense? You are out of a job and she is changing the bills to your name? See the fog and the babble? Ok now, work with what you know. She is out there with a distored sense trying to make decisions. You want her to make decisions for you right now? Yet whatever you tell her will go in one ear and out the other. At least for now. So listen but don't react to what she says for now. K?L.

I'll keep that in mind orchid, As for the bills, even though they are in her name, I am the one paying them, even before the job thing. and now she claims she wants a D and wants out of my lie and our M, I can only protect myself, and prepare for the worst, the last thing I need is her to irrationally decide to shut off a utility, I live here, and I use the utilities, as well as pay for them. and the less ties with her right now the better. I am taking care of "me" first and foremost. and our M right now is kind of in limbo, until something happens between her and OM, or she comes out of the "fog", or she just plainly realizes what she is doing is all a mistake, and realizes "Home" is a "safe place" and wants to work it out. I have some things of hers still here, and a couple things she would like if we do D. So, I am going to drop them off to her this weekend, then our only contact will be when she calls me, which is unlikely to happen, until she "misses" me.It could be a day after I drop off her stuff, it could be a month. and as sad as it is, I am starting to "feel" she might actually believe that she is happy with OM and wants D.Only time can answer that though.

T,Just a note:I had to go fight with my parents for a while and felt bad about leaving you hangin'.Now that I look at this I missed half your life. Glad you didn't get left alone. Keep up the good work.Thanks
Rev

You are all so great, I wish it were possible to meet you all face to face ang give you all a big hug for the support, and the help and guidance in my times of need, But alas, that is not possible.so...{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS To All}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}But now comes one of the greater challenges I face, The uncertainty, and the waiting.I know I don't want to lose her, and I'm willing to do anything. But it kills me to think of her giving her love to someone else, and I think it kills me mor to not have her in my arms to hold.Oh how I wish I would hav found this site a year and a half ago, and how I wish I would have payed more attention to her and really "listened" to her, maybe this all could have been avoided.and now, I may lose it all, My M and my Beautiful Wife.But, I still have you all, and I have me to work on, I must become a "better" person, if not for her, than for myself and my future, whatever it may hold.Talk about extremes, negative to positive, but I guess thats what its all about. out with the bad in with the good.Thank you for letting me "vent".God Bless.

Just a note for those following my post. I re-read the ohio law on D and its not 6 months, its only 90 das residency in the county you file in. That means I only have 1 1/2 Months Approximately, to work this out before she can file.Just thought I should Update that.Not that it changes anything really, just means less time to work on M. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

wow, now I'm talking to myself. lol [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Anyways small update : I talked to my W on phone, we discussed the "bills" thing, and we also discussed me dropping the last of the stuff that is hers off, and asked her if we could meet for lunch or something on saturday, she said I guess, but we'll discuss that later. (A little hint of love for me left in her?)I told her how I was feeling (no LBs), and how I have missed her, how much I love her, and some things I am learning about myself. I als aked if she was still reading HNHN, she said no and I asked her to please keep reading it, not for me but for her, I told her it can teach her things about herself, and she said she would read it.I told her I loved her, and we said our goodbyes, and she'll call me tomorrow about our "bills".Any advice for phone calls, or am I doing ok on that?

Torizo,
I used to live by myself too, pre-internet ... I only talked to my pet [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] . You will be surprise there are many lukers reading your posts. You are doing good, except pushing her to read HNHN !. Do you say that both of you could not file anyway since it cost $$$ ?. If it is not ... think .. think ... how could you ask her to stop the separation. If it is then let it go and do not discuss it. It is a mental barrier for WS, once the barrier is gone it makes it harder. Most of WS ask for quick D with the tought of lessen the guilt within them.

T,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Any advice for phone calls, or am I doing ok on that? <hr></blockquote>I think RedHat has you peged on this one.Just a thought and Mabey I'm reading this stuff wrong, but it seems that you two spend more time on the phone that my W and I. Here is an idea. MB MC is done over the phone. That tells me that lots can be accomplished over the phone. Could phone time work as undivided attention? I know that Finances are tight right now, but somewhere around 15 hours a week on the phone may be an answer. I'm just making stuff up right now, so tell me I'm barking up the wrong tree if you want. I just thought I'd toss that into the mix.Thanks
Rev

The only problem with the phone is, she is the one to call me most of the time, and when we do talk, our longest phone conversation is 10 minutes, and it always seems like she has "better" things to do with her life than talk to me.So based on that, I really doubt I can get anywhere close to 15 hours a week.And the other problem with it is, the more time passes the more she claims to love OM, and the more "set" on D she becomes.as for the actual filing, I WILL NOT file, I absolutely refuse, based on I love her and I WANT to work our M out, and she can't afford it, based on she has no job, OM has no job currently, and her friend she is staying with can't afford to give her the $$$ right now, as well as she still has to wait 60 days or so. I don't think there is a way to change her mind though, and I don't think there is a way to stop the seperation.We've been apart for more than a month now, except the phone calls, and the more time goes on, the less she "wants" to work on anything except D, It is her one-track mind, shes set on ending M.I just wish, at some point, for her to really look at the situation and think about the "Big picture" here, not just what is in front of her at the immediate time.[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ][ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

T,Sory about the phone thing, thought it was worth a shot. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I just wish, at some point, for her to really look at the situation and think about the "Big picture" here, not just what is in front of her at the immediate time.<hr></blockquote>It may take time, and you may have to plan b her, but this will happen.Remember from your reading, we can't compete with the fantasy world that the WS and OP create, but in time reality must set in. It's that time thing again. I HATE that, but it's true.Things to think about:Does she know about the time issues in your state? If not let her keep thinking it is 6 months.If neither of you have the $ for D then It will take even more time.Even if you have to D, DON'T make it ugly. If reality sets in after D she needs a safe place to come home to.Remember, you have a an advantage long term. You know what her EN's are. Think he does? Think he's even thinking about this? I won't promis she'll be back, but I will promis that reality will set in eventualy. No one can keep that kind of fantasy going forever.Off on somthing else:
Have you seen this: Divorce Busters. I saw it in another post just the other day.Thanks
Rev

I wanted to avoid plan B, but it looks like it may come to that in the next week or two. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Yeah, I know, We can't compete with fantasy, thats why she likes being with him so muc, it's the fantasy.I don't think she knows about the time restrictions, as for mony a month or two down the road she may have it, one way or another.As for D, I don't intend for it to be ugly, I'll go through it, but I will not be the one to initiate the filing of the papers, she will be the one to file, I'll be nice about it and sign everything, but I absolutely refuse to file. That way, if god forbid, we don't ever get back together, at least I know in my heart and mind, I tried to fix our M to the bitter end. I guess it's a piece of mind thing.ENs, Unless he reads the book, he'll never know, it took this before I realized what she needed. I have told her, now and even after this is "over", if she ever needs someone to talk to, I'll always be here for her, my home and my heart are always open to her. and she seemed puzzled, that after this, how could I do that, and I told her, because my love is that strong for you.and thats another thing, evertime I tell her how much she means to me or how much I love her, i can tell from her voice that she is crying, or at least tears are coming, why if she thinks she is doing what makes her "happy", is she crying at what I say? (Reality?) and she tells me, "I never wanted to hurt you, not like this". ok then end it with OM and come and work on M. (But I won't say that to her [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) That would be LB.Time... Time is all thats left... the uncertainty of time...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I wanted to avoid plan B, but it looks like it may come to that in the next week or two. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
<hr></blockquote>
What is the hurry ?. You just plan A'ng your wife .. don't expect any result kiddo !.. I am yet still waiting for my W to cry about A. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Yeah, I know, We can't compete with fantasy, thats why she likes being with him so muc, it's the fantasy.<hr></blockquote>
You are right about this however you let them live in it ... they will find out that It is just a fantasy. You stay away from it and let them see it them self.

So plan A is the best choice now?, and I guess I have not much else to say right now, She will be calling me later, when she calls the utilities to change them from her name to mine. Phone,Elec,Gas,and cable, which is just as important as internet right now [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] . Daily life 101 : Get up, shower, hunt for job, come home, play with cat, watch cable, play on computer,sleep. Do it all over the next day.oh, and wonder about how wife is, and the curiosity of if somewhere in the "fog"or"blackhole" in her life/mind , Does she still love me and care for me At all?I just wish I knew....It hurts not knowing....I know, I know, back to the time issue... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

And the worst thing about all this,(ok probably not the worst), Whaen we got a place together, I moved out of my parents house to be with her, I never wanted to live on my own, I never had a "need" to, and looking back (hidsight sucks sometimes) about the time when she "met" him on-line she started saying things about being "on her own" because she has never been "on her own". she went from high scholl, to marriage (common law) to an abusive husband, (both mentally and physically) to moving up here(he went to prison), to being with me, and to this day she carries things from her past, I wonder if it plays into this???Oh well...Time....Time is the answer...I hopeI heard this on another post : The Grass Is Greener On The Other Side, Because There Is More Bull$#!* Over There.[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Update time again, I Called W and asked her if she had contacted Utilities places, she said no but she is going to when we get off the phone, We talked for some time and I asked her to come home or at least come to MC with me, she said sadly she can't because she is living with OM, I continued telling her how much I love her and how much I want to still work this out, she asked how can I want to work it out after what has happened, And I told her my love for her goes deeper than anything she can do that is bad. She didn't say anything to that, I also asked her about just dropping her stuff off and leaving or if we could go out somewhere, and she said I'll let you know. oh, and I guess in the next week her and OM and her friend are going to NY tho get his stuff and bring it back, so I guess this is it for them, now for him to get a job, and for them to get a place, and hopefully they will find "real-life" isn't what they think it is. Also I told her today that she is going to have to file the papers if she really wants D, I'm not going to do it, and she said thats fine. (Guess the train is still on it's same ol' track).I told Her I love her(like I always do) and she said she'd call me back after she gets done with utilities, to tell me what they said.If only there were a way for her to experience what D and "real-life" feel like now, or at least a taste of it, That would make me happy. I think...Depending on this weekend (or whenever I drop off her stuff) We may have more, we may have less contact, More if she decides to go somewhere with me, and less if she just has me drop off her stuff.To quote Mel Brooks/Yogurt in the movie spaceballs : Oh what a world,what a world,what a world...
Time...

Ok, Got off the phone again with W, She called all the companies, all but 2 are switched over to my name, Phone(past due, wont switch until paid), and Elec. Same thing), any ways Good news along with this, Let me re-phrase that GOOD news, she has decided to see me on saturday, and she said we'll talk about all this (situation and whatnot I'm guessing) So if there was a chance to pull in some Love Deposits, here it is.help, what should I/shouldn't I do, gotta make up some serious Deposits to keep on this track.Thats the latest info..... Time.....

Three cheers to you my friend,
You are doing a good job and it sounds like you know how to handle yourself when you meet her sat. The one thing I can think of is to listen carfuly to what she says. Its always a good thing to repeat what she says in so many words and in a kind way. This lets her know that you are hearing what she says and you are validating her feelings. Somthing I had to learn to do especialy when we were having an argument or diagreement.
No love busting!!!!SH

Thanks, SH , Yeah REALLY listening, is not one of my better qualities, but I'll try to do it, alot is "riding" on it. No LBs.

T,Congrats man. This is only a small step twards a long journey, but you got to start somehow. You know what you have to do. If you have to reherse before you go do it. We are all behind you on this. Remember, you don't have to be perfect, just keep a head about you. Your the one with the ENQ, and your the one she fell in love with before. That is an advantage.You can't win the war on saturday. This is only a small battle. Remember that! If you try to win the war you'll end up pushing her away.I think you are ready for this. Remember what you have learned and you'll do fine.My prayers go with you.Thanks
Rev

Hiya T,Checkin' in and see that you are moving along. Yep all that back and forth babble stuff is hard to swallow but you appear to be in a better spot. Despite the odds against you, you are able to keep a clear head!!! I am proud of you. Your W is still very much in the fog. Babbling a bit also. Plan A keeps them confused. I mean why would you want them back after they did so many bad things and still may do more? The fogheads just don't get it. So we keep plan Aing as long as we can then go to plan B to keep our santity. It is a long road ahead but you keep building your strength. You have progressed farther than you think. That is why others here have commended you on your progress. Take the pat on the back but don't get a swell head (only joking [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ). Take Care,
L.

Thank you all, I just want to show her change is possible, and home is a "safe-place". Should I meet her with flowers(she loves roses) or something? I don't know what exactly we are going to do, or where we are going, but either way we are going to talk about "things"(as she put it, good or bad I don't know yet),I hope good...She is my world, and I don't want to screw it up...God Bless.[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

My prayer for you & W. God Bless you.

Thank you.I will update on situation either saturday evening, or sunday morning.God Bless.

Found a really Nice card at the store,The front says : I've never been so inspired by love, so lost in the feeling that I could stay there forever...
Inside : It's as if you and I were lovers in another time and place and all of our lives have been but preparation for this reunion. it's as if no two have ever loved the way we do, as if your lips were made for mine and my hands were meant to touch only you.With all of my breath and body, mind and soul - I'm so in love with you.Don't that just make you smile?What do you think, that card and a dozen roses, that ought to make a couple love deposits, no?

Hey T,That sounds really great!!! But.... When someone is in the fog it might not go over to well. I wish my former WS was here right now (shopping) because she could answer this question much better. I remember when she was still in the fog and I would give her roses and gifts only to find out later that that was not what she needed. Much later when the fog lifted I asked her what she did need at the time and guess what she said? She didn't know.
So you see, it might work well for you.... then again it might not. Its hard to say. The card sounds good, but mabey a single red rose might go over better, she might not feel over wellmed as much or the guilt as much. I'm sure she feels rotton for what she has done to you and the marriage. She cannot and will not accept your forgiveness in all this until she can forgive herself and that my friend is what will be the hardest thing for her to do.
The most important thing is to hear what she is saying, listen closely. You can still say all that you need to say but when she responds to what you say, let her talk and listen. Repeat what she says in a question. "So you are saying this, that, and the other?? I see what you are saying!!"....... In doing this you are validating her and she will respond in a posative way.
Keep studying and learning this is the best thing you can do right now because she will see this new light in you that will make you attractive. Oh and by the way it won't hurt to get a hair cut and be looking real good too... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Good luck, SH

All, very good suggestions, you are right, maybe a single red rose IS better. Hair cut, maybe, but I think she rather like to see me without a hat on for a change(addicted to the hat).I saw that card, and thought about us and how it used to be, it pretty much says what I feel now.The listening and somewhat repeating thing will be hard to remember, but I think I'm ready.anything I should be trying to accomplish at this "stage" other than showing the changes to her, and telling/showing home is "safe"? or are those big enough goals for now?God bless.[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Sometimes our best intentions get twisted in that fog and we come up with mud on our faces. Does that mean we stop? No just need to get better direction so that we don't trip in that A hole (hm....) again.This means that a dozen roses in normal situations would be greatly appreciated but the WS could interpret that to mean
1. you really want them to feel guilty.
2. are you trying to make the OM look bad
3. why do you keep doing this to me
4. I don't like roses
5. you remind me of my mother
6. I just want to be friends
7. you are confusing me............the list goes on. Now does any of those 7 items make sense? Nope. Not suppose to so don't even try. You'll just get a headache. Hey I am getting good at this illogic fogese logic stuff. Just act confused and twisted and wa la...... you can speak fogese. Understanding it takes a different degree of stupidity.... So do something little, when she complains (like above), just say well I thought of doing more but held back. Don't explain why, just let them think about it. JMHO,
L.

hold on, now I think I'm falling in the "forese" hole. To make "sense" of the "fog" and W, I hve to be confused and bass-ackwards? It all makes perfect sense now!!! To handle a "normal" situation requires logic, while handling an A or "fog" situation requires Illogic...Now It makes sense or in this case doesn't. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Kind of brings a song to mind, Supertramp"the Illogical Song" lol

T,Just a note on the Fogese.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
To handle a "normal" situation requires logic, while handling an A or "fog" situation requires Illogic...<hr></blockquote>Look through my thread and you'll find this: <blockquote>quote:<hr>I think I learned a little fogese. We talked about living arangements. She said she wasn't ready to move back in. I said "Ok, don't move back in, just start spending the night". She's thinking about this.<hr></blockquote>I swear to you I had this conversattion. I thought you could appreciate it.RedHat tells us to keep them confused. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks
Rev[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]

Thats really F@#$&d up, but hey, If it works,then who's to argue with it, right?I talked to an old friend of mine tonight, we caught up on our lives,(we haven't had contact in about a year now) she said she wishes me good luck on saturday, and If I need someone to talk to, she be there to talk to.(I know what you all are thinking, we have no emotional, or sexual feeling towards one another, so she is "safe" to talk to, I'm not that vulnerable, and besides, I love my W too much to betray her like she has betrayed me [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )anyways, it's late, time to get some sleep.God bless...

Torizo "...and If I need someone to talk to, she be there to talk to.(I know what you all are thinking, we have no emotional, or sexual feeling towards one another, so she is "safe" to talk to, I'm not that vulnerable, and besides, I love my W too much to betray her like she has betrayed me )"Anguished smile here on my part...I heard a great quote once:
The devil doesn't attack us where we are weak.
He attacks us where we think we are strongest.I believed the same as you, until it happened to me.This is direct from the MB seminar:
"My position on the kind of behavior you are talking about is that we are all vulnerable, and so we cannot put ourselves into the situations that your wife put herself in. She is especially vulnerable because she thinks that her will power can get the job done. I would encourage her to consider herself more vulnerable than she thinks she is so that she never finds herself in compromising situations again."In the above, 'she' could be you?JMO-ICBW (dennis miller's sign-off)[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Vanilla'd ]

ok, but I know myself, I have been put in far worse situations before (women hitting on me and such, I just give the "cold shoulder" and walk away), My Love for my wife, is stronger than any other "need" I have, No other woman could "replace" that, at least not at this point.If it comes to a point, that I realize our(Me and W) situation is truly "hopeless",and we do D, then and only then will I open myself to other women "Emotionally", and as for physically, It is not one of my most important needs at this time...I love my W,and unlike her, I'd never do anything like she has done.To quote a friend of mie telling my W about me when we first started dating : "He(me) is as faithful as an old hound dog".I have never cheated on anyone I have been with, and don't have intent to start now.God Bless.

Well Guys, I Just talked to my wife about tomorrow, Unfortunately, I regret to say there is no tommorrow, she told me on the phone her mid is mad up and thats how it is.Regretfully as well, We are now moving to plan B, No contact unless it's through Email. I am going down to where she is staying to drop off the last of her stuff, as well as the formal Plan B letter.From this point on I don't think there is anything I can do to "fix" this, she is the only one who can affect the outcome now.She also told me on the phone, that she hasn't been wearing he wedding ring, she says she just feels weird. (whatf#@*ingever)I also re-affirmed the idea that she is going to be the one who files D as I will not, sign it yes, but not initally file it.I only hope she realizes the impact of this, before it's too late.Now heartbroken and alone, I take her stuff to her, and wish her all the happiness that I could not give her.
God bless those who have been here for me, and those that will come. Thank you.[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

In The continuing struggle to update you: Now it is in her court, she makes the dececision to work it out, she makes the dececision to contact me.I dropped of her stuff, we talked about a couple things, including how and what she needs to file papers, you know what she said, this floors me "there's really no hurry you know". then what the F*^$ are you doing this for?sorry about that, I handed her the letter, she said she would definately read HNHN now,(She hasn't been), I told her I guess this is goodbye for now, tears started to come down her cheeks, I kissed her on the forehead, and said goodbye.Went out with a friend(Needed someone to talk to) and came home.Moving on with life now, whatever happens, happens. I know I have done all I could do, and that makes me feel good about myself.God Bless. and thank you once again for being here.[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

T,Sory to hear this.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
Now it is in her court, she makes the dececision to work it out, she makes the dececision to contact me.<hr></blockquote>Hate to reminde you of this, but it always was. <blockquote>quote:<hr>you know what she said, this floors me "there's really no hurry you know".<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr>I told her I guess this is goodbye for now, tears started to come down her cheeks, I kissed her on the forehead, and said goodbye.<hr></blockquote>Can you say FOG? I still say these are signs of her confusion about you and him (a good thing) and the fact that she still cares about you (a good thing) and isn't sure she's doing the right thing (a good thing). I know that I may be the most wrong individule on the planet, but I still see hope. If the reality that sets in is as divergent from her EN's as you say it is, this will die. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Went out with a friend(Needed someone to talk to) and came home.<hr></blockquote>You know you, I don't. I only know me. That said, I think the joury's still out on this one. I'd think twice. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Moving on with life now, whatever happens, happens. I know I have done all I could do, and that makes me feel good about myself.<hr></blockquote>Thats the point of the program.Got to run, I'll catch up later.Thanks
Rev

T,You saw tears. Remember that. Not to get your hopes up but don't want you to discount what you saw. Fog does strange things to the strange. Plan B may have a stronger impact than anything else you have done. Move forward. As much as possible keep busy. Help yourself, help others, have projects, hobbies, etc. Continue to find ways to better yourself but also find time to find some enjoyment also. It will be hard and the easier way is to wallow in pity. Post here when you feel frustrated or whenever. I have been strenghtened by posting to others. Not sure all my words help others but me typing and knowing what to say to others helps put it deeper in my mind. So it is a 2 fold benefit. If you do get sad or depressed, know this is normal. Par for the course. Make sure you are aware and get the help/assistance you need. Work towards being strong for one day she may need you and ask for your help. Help comes in various stages, sometimes helping means stepping back other times it means reaching out. Learn to read the signs well. Don't brow beat yourself. Share with us your insight. You sound like a man who wants to keep is mind clear and focused. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind. Take Care.....you are doing good. L.

Thank you all, I will continue working on me, an becoming a better person. I will still be here on MB, and putting in my $0.02 whenever I can, as well as posting if I need support or if there is something to update.You have all been wonderful, but now the true test of love is at hand.and time has the final word...God Bless.

Torizo,
Hey, while I am catching my breath, could you help out ?. There are many of them need help. - thanks -Check this linkI am just back from skiing and I crashed my car ... my life flashed before my eyes. Everyone is fine.[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]

Sorry about the car, good to hear everyone is ok.not much here though, had an interview this morning, I think it went well, I'll find out on monday or wednesday.Nothing new with W since Plan B letter yesterday. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Redhat,What!?!? you crashed the car? I thought you were already on your way home!!! Are you guys able to drive back? By the way, I looked at the thread but it is incomplete. Can you repost it?Thanks,
LT, sorry for stealing your thread. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Its ok O, No problem.Nothing new to post here anyways. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Feeling in an OK mood right now, Ya know, it does help to help others, I feel good about reading other posts and lending my $0.02, (If it relates to my situation, or I can lend some advice). [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Unfortunately, there are thos that I have no clue what to say, and must remain silent. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] No new updates on W.Redhat, how's the car, and more importantly you and any family with you? I hope everything is ok.God Bless.

Torizo,
I am glad you still hangin out here. My car is probably totalled, my family is fine but I am more down about my WW upset about the car and not even wishing me happy birthday.I am still think you are too early to move on plan B, however you are the one who knows better. Hang in there.

My "motivation" to go to plan B is : A)she won't go anywhere with me(She's afraid OM won't like it) B)we have been talking less and less every day. C)I "feel" that there was nothing left I could do in plan A.I might be wrong, but it "feels" right for what is happening between us.Let me know what you think.God Bless.and, sorry about the car [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , & Happy Birthday. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Torizo,
Thanks, I have yet receive happy birthday from her. She keeps withdrawing LB$ ... I need to check in next week w/ SH to watch out so that I won't snap.A) Physical is not as important as emotional. I rather have my WW away but "talk" to me than she spend a few hours a week here at home and "roommate" arrangement.
B) The more you push it the more it is going to be difficult. Specially everytime you talk to her, she felt guilty and you play on it. She will tried to reduced her pain. You talk more to your W than me or rev to our WW combined probably.
C) A lot. Learn how to talk and how to listen. Talk about your/her day, hers/your intimate feeling aside from relations, or even talk about nothing (something that you talk for hours but forget as soon as you hang up). If OM is ready to take her and/or she is willing to take less, your M will be over. Plan A usually as short as 6 weeks as long as 2 years and in average is 6 months.

But she never "wants" to talk, I ask her about things, and she seems "distant", like she could care less if I'm talking to her or not. I have tried to tell her things I feel, No LB, and she just doesn't care. I ask her about things, and somewhere during our conversations, always comes from her, it's over. It's really frustrating.I love her deeply and do care about her, but she won't let me know how "she" feels inside, I know...fog. but still, it would be nice to know something.so, I think the biggest problem, is we no longer talk, and when we do it seems I am talking to a tree or a brick wall.and her comment when I asked her to spend an evening with me, and she said I don't think OM wold like that too much, (F*&# him, I should be the one that matters most, not OM) that really steams me. so I'm really starting to feel, if A doesn't die soon, all may be lost and she won't come back, at least not in the forseeable future...What should I do Guys(and Girls)...?

Torizo,
I need to take a break too from time to time, but that doesn't mean I have to go to plan B. You could pull back w/o plan B ... actually in plan A that is all about, work on yourself regardless of her action. Call or no call.
DUTY CALL, I have to bring my 2 D to their activities ... see you later[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]

Hi T,For right now (been saying this for a while) but for right now, step back. Your W is not ready to talk because she is not ready to face the consequences. U on the other hand are in the fixer mode. You want to fix it, put is behind you and move on. Right? I totally understand. Me too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But the old saying about 'you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink'!??! Applies here!!! This will take time. More time than has already past. I wondered how I would make it through the 1st month. With my anxiety attacks, OW claiming to throw me in jail, OW claiming to be prego, OW accusing me of making her lose the baby (I have never even met the OW - oh yea it was my 1 phone call where all I said is: May I speak to S____ and she said "FU"...), WS moving out, WS telling our son that he could not be his father anymore, etc.) All that in the 1st month. Wow.... looking back over the past 13 months, a lot has happened. But I am here. A lot of it goes to being at MB, prayer, going to my meeting, friends, family, some counseling sessions and my love for my H and family. Oh yea, and I am a stubborn ol coot! LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] You will also. I will send you the revised plan A and B threads later. It might do you good. Have you looked at the book "love must be tough" by Dr Dobson? Might give you a different insight. Good book. Take Care,
L.

and at this point I have "stepped back". Hence the plan B,It states to contact me when She wants to start working on M. So I am working on my life now, otherwise there will be "nothing" to come back to.I can't find that book, but I'm looking, I also picked up SAA today, going to read it.I feel "lost" at this point and maybe anxious too.i am thankful to have all of you to help me through this.God Bless.

Fairly common feelings (lost and anxious). I share this thread a lot about 5 stages of grieving. Forgive me if I already sent it to you but I looked back a few posts and didn't see it. Been working too hard and the mind is starting to go...... Here it is: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html Let me know what you think. It is when I start to feel that way is when this thread is recalled. It has helped me many a time come out of the slumps. Take Care,
L.

that does clear things up abit, and is, well uplifting.I was depressed the first week or so after she left, but now the depression is gone(doing lots of stuff to keep"happy"). But now it's a new feeling, or at least new to me, I think it's the uncertainty of it all, before this happened our life had "direction" and but now it's like tring to go five different ways at once, and not knowing which way is the "right" way.I know this, I love her, and I don't want to lose her, and even after this A, I am still willing to fight for our M. But...the questions remain, does she still love me? is a "part" of her really willing to work on our M? and perhaps the biggest question, wil she come back?(which I don't think can be answerd one way or the other).It is that uncertainty that is "messing" with my mind. I try not to think about it much, but it is all there in the back of my mind.I can't give up, but I'm statrting to feel "worn out", I just wish it were all "said and done" so we could either try to fix our M, or (God forbid)go our seperate ways(Which I feel is what she wants, but at the same time she is uncertain.
[See below.] <blockquote>quote:<hr> I dropped of her stuff, we talked about a couple things, including how and what she needs to file papers, you know what she said, this floors me "there's really no hurry you know". then what the F*^$ are you doing this for? <hr></blockquote>and I know at this point she don't know what she wants because of the fog.I went to plan B in hopes to "give her a taste" of what it IS like without me, in hopes it will make her "see" a little.( I don't know what the outcome will be)and as for calling her, she just never seems "interested" in me if I call, as OM is always "right up her @$$" whenever we talk.I just don't know what to do, other than continue to improve myself and my life. and hopefully she'll come back. (I just hope I am not pushing her away)What are your thoughts?

That's what we call 'fence sitting'. You on one side and why in the world a total stranger has an equal portion on the other side of the fence is beyond me but there they are. STanding there as if they have been there the whole time!!! Go figure. No don't go figure, you will just get a headache. See, you can not figure out illogic. So don't go there. As crazy as all this seems and the methodology suggested here you'd think we would all be committed to the looney house by now. But we are not. Some of us have decided to take up a 2nd language. fogese. It is amazing how quickly the WS learns this language. They use the same phrases and think they are unique. They walk around waffling and fence sitting instead of walking on the sidewalk and sitting on chairs like normal people. Think about this. If you saw a person 'waffling' down the street, taking up both sides of the sidewalk, stepping into other people's lawns without a care in the world and then see them sitting on the fence eating their dinner, sleeping on the fence post every night. What would you think of that person? Hm...... well in a mental sense that is what our spouses are doing and others are viewing them as such. It is not as much of a secret as they would like to think. I mean come on.... our kids can pick up on it at a very young age. Did I tell you about the 3 year old whose dad is the WS telling his mom that dad has become just like one of those aliens in the movie MIB? 3 years old......think its a secret to anyone else? Yet that man thinks no one really knows and has kicked his wife and son out of their home rendering them homeless. This man of the community thinks no one knows. Right. See the fog? Now we (bs and friends) try very hard to prevent our individual WS' from looking that stupid but some them just gotta try. Just think (again), if your child hung around someone who was teaching them bad habits (how to talk back to their parents, lie, cheat, steal, etc.) and you found out, would you allow your child to associate with such a person? Nope. So why do our spouses get to get away with it?I'll let you ponder that for a while.... I have to get back to work, that crazy report finally finished printing.... LOL!! he he he [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] L.

OUCH....my brain hurts, You are right though, maybe we should be committed.lol [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It is all bass-ackwards. how does on's brain get so "screwed up"? I mean to let the "fog" and confusion set in?The really sad part in all of this is, I can't even rationalize what she is doing, I have been place in the same situation at some point, and to me it was wrong, and therefore would betray trust and love I have for my other half, and so, I would end the action(s) even before it could start.I can't fathom in a milllion years,how anyone can justify an A in their mind, fog or no fog, it's morally wrong. The more I think of it the less sense it makes.even in terms of "putting myself in their shoes" , so to speak, I still can't make sense of it. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Just think (again), if your child hung around someone who was teaching them bad habits (how to talk back to their parents, lie, cheat, steal, etc.) and you found out, would you allow your child to associate with such a person? Nope. So why do our spouses get to get away with it?
<hr></blockquote>To that I can only say(not being a parent myself), I would forbid them to go near the bad influence, and if they still did it I would punish them. and our spouses(This is my POV)we love, and because they are "adults" we have no right to punish them, yet how can we not? otherwise we would be doormats(Plan A) all the time. There HAS to be a happy medium between "doormat" and "slave-driver", but when the spouse is in the "fog" they can't see anything past their own noses and their own "selfish" desires.I want my W to see I have changed, but it's alittle hard over the phone when W is so "commited" to OM and really has no desire to talk to me, at least not in the sense of how we used to talk, full of love, now she seems so "cold" towards me, as if to say "why do you even waste your time talking to me?".So the question is : Now what? I know, I know Time is the ANSWER. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

To clarify my choice to go to Plan B, see pg.46 of SAA. With seperation comes reality.That is my hopes in going to plan B, and having "no contact".I also understand it could push her away, it can't be any worse than anything else that has happened.I can only HOPE she will "see" through the "fog" and want to start working on M, but I am(unfortunately) also prepared to move forward with my life, even (sob. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ) if it HAS to be without her.

Small update : My W just called, said she wanted to "check up" on me(Said she had some nightmare about finding me dead in our apartment.) and she also said she misses me. I asked her if everything is ok, and she sobbed(Like she was crying) and said no, everything is fine. I told her I do love her, and she replied with " I know you do, I have never doubted that at all, but I cant change these feelings (for OM) I have".She asked If I'll be home later, and wanted to know if she could call me, I told her if she would like she could. I told her I love her, and we said goodbye.Would this be violating Plan B? or should I go to Plan A agin?This is soo confusing. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Yes. See little contact is all they need to get them going. Going where? Well no where really but it keeps them going there none the less. Was that a mistype when you asked if everything was ok and she said No, everything is ok? Because that is how they talk. You may not be ready for plan B yet. L.

No mis-type there, that is what she said, and how she said it.Should I take this as a "good" sign? or is it just a moment in time where the fog starts clearing and then comes back? <blockquote>quote:<hr> You may not be ready for plan B yet. <hr></blockquote>So I should Plan A, even though I gave her the plan B letter?She says she wants to be apart, yet when we are apart, she wants to know how I am, How, backwards is that?Someone needs to write : Fogese for dummies, the resource guide for those who want to learn about the Fog.I'll be around tonight, not much else to do, write at MB, and wait for the phone to ring.

Ok, there you have it babble babble babble. Do you understand this yet? Nope, because you are not meant to. Do you get your hopes up? No, you just step back and watch the babble until it runs out. If it runs out of steam before you do then she can come back. If you run out of steam first, her chances are much slimmer or she will have to convince you major big time to reconsider. So get T out of the that chair and go see a movie or rent one. I just bought Jurassic Park III and will be watching it tonight. Our son is a big dino fan!!! He used to want to be a paleontologist when he was 3 years old but now he wants to be pokemon trainer (sigh)..... I heard from Faith1 that OceansEleven is good. How about that or Spy Games? Maybe Lord of the Rings? RH is suppose to have gone to see that
one. Haven't heard his review yet. I am still stuck here at work...YUCK! Have a good one. K? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Hey, someone calling my name ... I am at Metreon waiting for my 3:50 show, thanks to Sony I have access to MB ... how addictive. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Torizo, you are not ready for plan B yet and that was said by Orchid, me & rev probably. When WS is a W, it takes longer to get them back, don't dream to get her back next week or so. You have to work it slow. I will be back later to put out the review of Lord of the ring [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

T,Sory man I've been chasing my backside trying to keep up with all the threads I got myself into. I'm going to try to cut back. I'm not even going to try at this point to give you any profound advice. You have put up about 4 pages I have to go back and read. I just wanted to say that RedHat and Orchid have you on the right path. I cought the last four posts before I put this up. I also have to say that as much as I appreciate him, RedHat needs a distraction. You think Sony will let him visit MB while he watches the movie too?Thanks
Rev

Well then, in light of this all, I am going to see what is on pay per view, if nothing interesting, Blockbuster is up the street.lol.I think I will take your advice, and it's back to plan A, um, my personal time limit for this will be, hmmm...... let's say valentine's day, then if the situation don't improve, or takes a turn for the worse, I'll go to plan B. Sound fair? I think it is. I only hope W calls tonight to say something "positive". <blockquote>quote:<hr>If it runs out of steam before you do then she can come back. If you run out of steam first, her chances are much slimmer or she will have to convince you major big time to reconsider.
<hr></blockquote>Orchid, so you know, I have an amazing resolve and ability to "deal" with situations, I may get confused at times, but I assure you, she WILL run out of "steam" before me. I CAN guarantee that. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Redhat, I heard the movie is great, me and W were supossed to see it, we never did, maybe I will sometime. <blockquote>quote:<hr> You think Sony will let him visit MB while he watches the movie too? <hr></blockquote>
Rev, yet another book idea, You know you are addicted to MB when...lolOne more thing on Plan A/B, SAA, says plan A is to convince WS to leave OM,and A. but what if WS, say they want OM instead of BS? Then is it still plan A, Or do you in fact go to plan B? considering where my WS is should I stay in plan A?God Bless.[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
You should see LordOfTheRing. Many people can not take the temptation of the Ring (A). The Journey is to destroy the Ring (A). There is a lot of fogese talk too, waffling in and out. And the best part of it you have to wait to see how the journey end (the death of A). A cliff hanger 'till next year. <blockquote>quote:<hr>One more thing on Plan A/B, SAA, says plan A is to convince WS to leave OM,and A. but what if WS, say they want OM instead of BS? Then is it still plan A, Or do you in fact go to plan B? considering where my WS is should I stay in plan A?<hr></blockquote>
You have to be in plan A for now, period. For you to move on plan B, your WW has to acknowledge your changes and has no issues your M no more. Even then you might want to wait until those changes become a habit. Plan B is the last resort and point of no return. Use it wisely.

Got it, back to plan A. I will probably go see LOTR this week sometime.Small update : W never did call me back last night [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] . I wonder why she said she would, and then doesn't? maybe I'll hear from her today, considering it's new year's eve and all, but...I won't hold my breath. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Do you know, this post is 92pgs. in microsoft word? just thought I'd share that insight with you. lolI just printed this out, so I can read it away from the computer.Hoping to hear from company I interviewd with on saturday, they said either monday or wednesday, they'd call.(I hope I get this job.)W still hasn't called [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , but hey, she has mor "important" things in her life to worry about than me. (yes, it's a sarcastic comment, that's why I write it here, and not tell her, that would be LB big time.)God Bless, and thank you once again(I know I can never say that enough) for helping with this, I only hope I can help someone like you have helped me. I do appreciate everything you all have done. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Morin' T,Gratuitous (sp???) remarks always appreciated. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I wish you well on the outcome of your interview. Boy if we could put our character references on applications the employers out there would see how strong most of us that post here are. That is what I look for in a candidate - endurance. Of course there are many other aspects to consider but endurance is an important quality. Definite must for a marriage. T, your road to recovery (be it marital &/or personal) will strengthen you so that you will be able to help others. That has helped my personal recovery. Check out Rev, Indy, Husband2You, WAT, Stillhers and many others. These are just some of the guys out there who have helped many. The girls are even more - Zorweb, Cali, Bramble Rose, Cheryl, Lor, LostVA, Perservering, buffy, sing, resilient and many many more. So join our helpers club and you will be rewarded in a small way. The saying 'there is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving' is true. Take Care,
L. Take care,

Good morning to you O, how are you today? I suppose you are right. Tis' better to have helped out than to just be a spectator. I have seen some of their posts, thaey are every bit as wonderful as you guys(and girls [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] are to me.Still no Call from W, I think she wants to mess with my mind.A quick question, in plan B acording to SAA it says: "After the letter is received, the betrayed spouse should avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has ended and the extraordinary measures to guarantee total separation from the lover are accepted by the wayward spouse." What if the WS is unwilling to leave OP?Does this almost guarentee D, or does it mean it will take longer for A to die a "natural" death?Just Curious.I hope your day is going well. Talk to you later. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img][ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

I was reading another post and it stirred up some thoughts, IF that is a big if at this point, IF my W ever ends her A, and ther is some (maybe very small by then) small chance to work it all out Whether Pre or Post D, What would be some good conditions to go by for her to return to our M or if D happens return to my life(maybe some potential, maybe not)? I have a couple Ideas, In fact the whole agreement at the back of SAA, sounds like a good start, but other ideas are welcomed.Even though the outlook is bleak right now, only time can tell where it will all end. (And unfortunately, Time is a Deaf & Mute Mime. lol [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )

Hi T,
Plan B causes action. Either way to recovery or D. You need to be aware of that action and now you can handle either outcome. If you can not then you need to stay in plan A. Cutting off contact is protecting the BS from further hurt. That applies in cases where the conduct of the WS is hurting the BS in word or deed. Cutting off contact also shows the WS that the BS no longer wishes to take any 'bs' from the WS. In a sense it let's them see what life is like without the BS. Pre-divorce syndrome? Is it a big step to take? Yes. Once taken the BS should not waffle. The WS needs to show positive action before the BS jumps to a change. This is the hard part. Taking the WS at their word often leaves the BS vulnerable to further hurt and false starts. On the other hand a stern plan B can also push the WS the other way. In most cases it anything would have done that anyway. So the fear of plan B is mostly in the mind of the BS. Actual execution of it is not as scary as perceived. Experiences do vary so caution is always advised. Some plan B plans do end in D. Relief to the BS if often received in plan B even with the D. A closure of sorts. L.

O, I understand the risks associated with plan B, and yes it very well could lead to D, I want to work on M, but there is/was/is almost no chance to do or say anything to prove to W that change has occured / is occurring. She no longer calls me except yesterday, she has made it clear to me that OM has priority in her life, such as back on pg. 7 or 8 (I don't remember) I say how about spending an evening with me and her response was "I don't thing OM would like it too much". That is why this is so hard. Plan A = Doormat, self improvement, try to look "good" for WS, Plan B = Taste of "reality" Possibility for WS to stay or go permanently.I have no reason to belive (From what little communication I have with W) that she has any intent to come back, I almost feel she wants it to end.I know I am willing to do ANYTHING to get her back, But I have also come to accept the other reality, Life without her. I just don't know what to do at this point, and if I am back to plan A, how do I explain it to her (free contact again ect.)As well as our phone conversations are now starting to sound the same(the more I think about it)
Hi how are you?, ok, You? As well as can be expected. Whats new? nothing really. you? Got a couple interviews and whatever day. oh thats good to hear. and from ther it goes to me telling her how much I miss her, and love her and how "home" is always open to her ect ect. Then she always says "I know you love me I never have doubted that" and she says "my mind is made up I'm with OM now" I could change to any subject in the world and it all ends up in the same place. I tell her I love her, and all I get in return is "i Know you do".And we hang up, I always have a feeling of emtiness after talking to her, the W that I married just doesn't "feel" "there" anymore, The aliens have abducted her. she is definately a victim of the "fog".So what can I do to make/help her "see"? how do I get her to a point of giving "him" up?I fam stasrting to feel as the days/weeks go by I am part of a losing battle, yet I still hold on to a glimmering ray of hope, that all is not lost.It is the love I have for her, and even through this, is has not been tarnished. But as for her love towards me, it feels like it has been replaced, and I feel the only reason she called yesterday is for her own piece of mind, to know I am alive.I don't know what to do, and any and all suggestions are welcome. I need "direction" now.and I am thankful for all of you, without you and MB in general, I don't know where I'd be...[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]

I mailed this to my W, I couldn't get a hold of her by phone, I don't think I LBd anywhere in it, But If I did, there's nothing I can do now.
I called where you are at a moment ago, no one answered. you all are probably out drinking and having fun. I hope you are. anyways, the reason I called was to wish you a Happy new year.Also, I wanted you to know that "home" is always open to you, and whatever your decisions are I will support you through them. I just want you to know, I love you Christi, and I always will love you, You mean the world to me. and I feel you should know that.It seems so long ago, when we first met, and I have been thinking alot lately, as well as trying to improve the quality of life for myself right now, I hope only that you will talk to me, I do care how you feel, and what you are thinking.Just know, it has been an absolute honor to be with you these four years, and know that I'm here if you need someone to talk to, ok?I love you with all my heart and soul Christi.
Have a good new year...What do you think? Pathetic I know, but its how I feel, and all I can say without mentioning A, or OM. Happy New Year To all...May we all find "peace" this year...

Well, happy new year oficially in EST. No call from W, Hurt and sad. Going to sleep now. Talk to you tomorrow / Later today.

Dear T,I see and hear the love you have for your W. However, that does not mean you will become a doormat. Keep the respect for yourself. In a crazy foglike way, the more you lower yourself to their level the more they despise you. So treat yourself with respect. Require her to do that also. This will show her that you will not lower your standards, you will then become more attractive to her. Whether she will come back based on that, time will tell but she will definitely see you as more attractive. Think about it would you want a woman who constantly throws herself in front of you? Begs and pleads for your attention? Grovels at your feet? Initially it may be flattering, after a while it becomes annoying. To the WS we are annoying. Until we pull ourselves together and respect our own self-worth. Please let me know what you think about this.L.

Torizo,
You need to get busy !. You have too much idle time to wonder around about your WW. Letter is good but don't expect anything out of it. The hardest part for BS is wait ... waiting for A to die. Some A never die and you have to yank them with plan B. In any case, average A dies in 6 months after expose in day light. Do you think you could make it in 6 months ?.

O, I see your point, I am trying to respect myself, and I do. It's just hard sometimes, to keep going, and the hardest part is the waiting... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Think about it would you want a woman who constantly throws herself in front of you? Begs and pleads for your attention? Grovels at your feet? Initially it may be flattering, after a while it becomes annoying. To the WS we are annoying. Until we pull ourselves together and respect our own self-worth. <hr></blockquote>So I should Not ignore her, but not plead with her? so should I just not say anything about "home"? I would assume that she knows everthing I have to say to her, and in some backwards reality, there really nothing I can say at this point except to tell her I love her.
rh, <blockquote>quote:<hr>You need to get busy !. You have too much idle time to wonder around about your WW. <hr></blockquote>You are right, but I have been trying like crazy this week to find a job, and been busy cleaning, but there is no enough things for me to do to fill all my idle time, that is why I live on here for right now.
<blockquote>quote:<hr> In any case, average A dies in 6 months after expose in day light. Do you think you could make it in 6 months ?. <hr></blockquote>Do I get a choice? I know I want to still be with her, if she will give me the chance... We have ALOT of talking to do, and ALOT of actions must be done before she comes back, I am not willing to just tak her back, she must change, and be willing to make the changes. Then we can discuss the changes.Waiting is definately the hardest part, for me at least, in all of this.
I just feel, like she is never going to give him up... Thank you for being here...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:

Do I get a choice? I know I want to still be with her, if she will give me the chance... We have ALOT of talking to do, and ALOT of actions must be done before she comes back, I am not willing to just tak her back, she must change, and be willing to make the changes. Then we can discuss the changes.<hr></blockquote>
You make me smile, no you don't have a choice if you want your M and even could run as long as 2 yr. For recovery learn about 4 rules, those are 4 gifts of love. As long as she is willing to work on it, you should have her back. However I agree w/ you never take WS back with out commitment unless you want a problem. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I just feel, like she is never going to give him up... <hr></blockquote>
Did you see LordOfTheRing yet ?. You see that selfishness will consumed the ring bearer. It is very powerfull evil lure, when they are at it you better stay away from it. Let them have the will to take it off.Hey, how about joging at lake front ?. There is a nice trail out there. Or how about ice fishing on the lake ?.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Or how about ice fishing on the lake ?. <hr></blockquote>It hasn't even started to freeze yet, still too warm in the lake. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I guess my problem is I'm impatient, I just want it to be over, Work on M or D, Just so there is some certainty.I had read the whole Maritial Recovery Agreement, in the back of SAA, even typed it all out in the computer, and it seems like a good first step. But if she is unwilling to end the A by her choice, or unwilling to work on M, then the MRA has no value. That is the uncertainty I wish wasn't there, I wish I could ask her, but the answer would be clouded by fog, and therefore wouldn't be valid.She says she wants D, but ther is no hurry according to her, I still don't get that, she is totally contradicting herself in that statement, I just wish I knew her true intentions...But now that we have almost no communication, I am no longer meeting any ENs, therefore, either OM meets them, or reality sets in, or worst possible case, she leaves me for him and then when D is final, she'll "wake up" and by then it could be too late for her.I am alot like you, I'll hang in there, but I wont wait forever. Life will go on with or without her. I know is mean to say, but its the truth. I do love her, and I always will, but I can't wait forever...Everyday that passes without her, it seems to get easier to deal with, But I'm afraid, I may be losing some love for her, because of what she has done, and is continuing to do. The love I have wont disappear completely, but it is slowly ebbing out.It saddens me to think about this, it saddens me more that she just ignores me like I'm not here.You all have shown me, how hard it is, and what to do, you have been here for me when I needed it the most. and for that I'm eternally greatful.
In the long run I know if nothing else, I will be a better person for this that I am doing, Even though I may lose the one I truly love in the process...Thank You All...God Bless.

Torizo,
How about "dare jumping" on the lake ?. Make sure you have your car heater on full blast before you leap in. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, Torizo, no one should go through this but yet here we are. There is a limit and there is a time to move on. Let her go for now. Do not get bother or second guessing on what she does. Also in plan A is not about fullfilling WW's EN. So don't get edgy about meeting her EN's.If she wakes up too late it is her loss and it is her choice not yours. You probably by then already have someone else and for sure you will protect it with MB.Everyday that passes without her, it seems to get easier to deal with, But I'm afraid, I may be losing some love for her, because of what she has done, and is continuing to do. The love I have wont disappear completely, but it is slowly ebbing out.
Actually it is acceptance. About love, in MB term could be rebuild completely. If you do 4 rules and meet someone EN's completely you could make them fall in love w/ you. Look at the past generation where they have match marriage, what do they say about love ?. It grows w/ time. Exactly !!!. Even your "in love" feeling is gone, with MB you could rebuilt it. What MB can not do is when you start turn love to hate, that is the time you should go to plan B. Plan A is actually move the focus on you so that you do not dwell on WS.In the long run I know if nothing else, I will be a better person for this that I am doing, Even though I may lose the one I truly love in the process...
You find your happiness when the time come, w/ or w/o W. Arm with MB knowledge, you could be an irresistable mate [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

<blockquote>quote:<hr> You find your happiness when the time come, w/ or w/o W. Arm with MB knowledge, you could be an irresistable mate <hr></blockquote>Thanks, You know how to change my perspective on things. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I know where I want to go in life, and how to get there, it will just be a shame if it is not her by my side.But that is life, unpredictable. <blockquote>quote:<hr>It grows w/ time. Exactly !!!. Even your "in love" feeling is gone, with MB you could rebuilt it. <hr></blockquote>But is the oppistie also true? In her case "out of sight out of mind"? I mean if love grows with time, does love fade with time?I have read the four rules,Honesty,Time,Care,and Protection. But at the current point, they are just thoughts at the back of my mind, I only hope I get the "chance" to use them to save our M.Anyways, I am going to go see LOTR at 2:45pm My time, I'll post my thoughts when I get home.I wish it were all over, and life could go back to somewhat normal...

Torizo,
You are very good and critical, yes "out of sight out of mind", however "in love" as you know it is not only time but also EN(s) and commitment. Your W love is hanging on the memory in the past and hope she could see your changes. That is why you need to have open communication and we try to stop you from plan B'ng !!!. Send her a card, nice card and wrote poem to her, once a week.Hope you don't weep at LoTR [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... I did [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

WHAT AN AMAZING MOVIE!!!!!! That is the best fil I' have seen in a LONG time. Wow, The effects were awesome, the plot was wonderful, absolutely amazing...Yeah a couple scenes pulled the ol heartstrings, and along came the tears... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] It does relat to A though, The ring does represent A, somewhat anyways... A power beyond human comprehension(the "rush" of emotions associated with A).But one thing really sticks with me, it is something Gandalf said, and I cant remember the whole line"(something)...It's what we do with the time given to us. It really sticks with me. I think it holds true though, at least for me.Back to reality, Should I tell her, "I've changed my mind" or just do it?... Should I call her, Or is it recommended to go by mail,email ect.?I recommend the Lord of The Rings to everyone, EXCELLENT movie.It felt weird to go see it alone, first movie I've been to in four years alone...

Torizo,Wait a bit then call her tommorow. Plan up what are going to see ... hey LoTR is a good topic to talk to her. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I have to run to bring 2 D to their activity ... WW is still MIA.

thats the thing, what should I say? Other than the same stuff I have been saying this whole time?"Theres only so many times you can Say I love/miss/are thinking of you, and there's only one way to say Home is always open to you". And it always ends the same, I know you love me, I never have doubted that, I miss you too, But I'm with OM now. She ALWAYS says the same things.I think somewhere in the land of fog she honestly has told herself she wants to be with him and not me, I don't honestly know what she is thinking, but that is the way it feels...I don't think she has seen LotR Yet...I hope WW becomes un-MIA.I'll be on later, as if I have anything else to do. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I just talked to W on the phone, I told her happy new year, and she said you too. I told her about LotR, and explained its plot,(no spoilers though), she asked Who did I go with?, I told her myself(Which Is true), she said wow, you went out to see a movie, how come you never take me but you will go yourself? (understand the last movie we saw together was Star wars Ep.1) I know I know, I neglected to take her to enough movies. Anyways, She asked how come you went by yourself(Duh...gee I wonder) I told her because I had no one to go with, and out of the blue, I asked her if she would like to go see LotR with me, her response: I'll have to see,(What are we afraid OM won't let you??? Hahaha, thats a good one) I'll have to see, that's rich, (What, warden won't let you out?) (you made your bed now sleep in it) I know it's mean, but it's how I feel.after that she said she had to "go",(Some 'bs' line, when I know damn well OM is "right" there) The whole conversation up to this point has felt "cold" towards me...I tell he ok, and that If she needs someone to talk to, I'm always here(Reaffirmation of something she knows), she said I know, I told her I love her, Response was different this time, she said I know. (that's it I know?) Then I told Her I miss her(Here it is: she said I miss you too,Haha Jackpot, Reality is starting to slowly creep in, I think...) She actually sounded like she meant it. So I told her I love her once more and we said Goodbye.Somewhere in all of this, I asked if she was still reading HNHN, she said she had finished Chap. 1,(Thats some progress). Oh and the other "warm" moment in this conversation was when she said Wow you actually went to a movie? She seemed, shocked and I think somewhat delighted(I may be reading too much into it though).The "spark" is there, If only I can bring it forward, and kindle it into a flame...[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Hi Toziro,Thanks so much for your post to the other day. I really was in a very low spot. I really admire your dedication. It gets so hard and difficult sometimes. I am living with my H and I feel like I am going to die sometimes of the pain. Yet you can remain optimistic. I really hope that your "spark" ignites for you. Thanks again for the encouragement.Perdu

Thanks P, I'm always glad to help if I can.I try to have a "positive" outlook on this all, even though it feels like the odds are against me.I think I would be nowhere near wher I am today without all of you to get me through this.I am eternally grateful for all of you.Hmm...I wonder where Redhat, and Orchid are? Haven't seem them today...[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Hey, T, I am around... this is first day of work for me and also I just LB'ed my WW that showed up this morning as I pull out to drop my kid to school and ask me if I want her to take the kids. No explaination why she did not call, she just want the kids now !!!.Anyway, you did good. Hang in there, get busy to send those resumes and let her know that you are changing indirectly w/ actions. I will catch you up later.

Hey RH, Good to hear W is still around, But no explanation of "why" or "where" ? Seems kind of odd. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Yeah, my poor printer is going to explode, I have printed soo many resumes' [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] The contact thing is essentially up to her though, my reason for that is : whenever I call it always feels like "why are YOU calling?" but, thats my opinion, whether she knows shes doing it on purpose or not, now thats a different story.I will still send email, though she rarely checks it, and have decided to start mailing a card, letter, poem, thoughts, Ect. once a week.I can only hope she likes what I send. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Just got off of phone with W, (I called her to see how she is doing), We talked about her life and if I had found a job yet. I told her I had a couple interviews and such, and she said that was good. I told her I missed her, and she whispered it back.(this is a good sign?) I told her "home" was always open to her, and she asked Is it? I said of course it is. Then somehow we started talking about if she was happy there, she said "I don't know", So I asked if "she wanted to come home", and she said "I don't know how"(what do you make of that?). So I offered to help her, she said "she couldn't talk about it right now, and she talk to me friday Morning about it" ( it was obvious OM was somewhere nearby, by her reluctance to talk) (Friday Morning OM has interview). I told her how much I love her, and she said "I know you do", Then I asked(probably shouldn't have) "if she still had love for me", and she said "of course I do"(sincerely). she was somewhat urgent to get off the phone, so I told her "I love her and would talk to her on friday morning", we then said goodbye.This is the first complete conversation that didn't seem "cold" towards me.(I think being apart is starting to take it's toll).So can anyone make some sense of this? is this the fog lifting, and "real-life" setting in? or what? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] The fog is confusing at times... Is this the "chance" I have been waiting for? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I looked back across my entire post, I REALLY need to slow down when typing, Sooooooo many errors. lol[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Hi T,You sound better. Lots of positive stuff in your last post. You seem like you have deposited some LB points. I don't really like to put it that way but I am sure you know what I mean. Keep learning and growing. Sometimes we (bs) only feel like we spend our time waiting and wondering and it is true. It does pay off in the end whatever that may be. Why? Because it helps us learn about ourselves. That is why it is important to keep busy during those waiting times. I will check back later. Take Care,
L.

Hey O, Yeah it's looking a little better right now, but she is prone to change her mind, Ya know those fog people [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . As it has been from the start, Only time will tell.We'll se if she calls me Friday or not, that is the real test here.I think the A is starting to die, I of course can't be sure, but all is not well in fantasy land.I'll talk to you later. Friday is the next expected update, but we'll see, I will probably have something to say before that. lol [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Torizo,WW gave explanations that is so lame that even my 9 y/o rolled her eyes. I don't even go there. After my LB this morning, she cooked dinner but we ate out side. She has left for class tonight (OM is in the class too) and I won't see her at all ... her regular schedule. SH told me to dig my trenches and stayed there for the long haul.Even if your W like your cards, poem ... she will not tell you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , Venusian's thing.Hey, how about Vanilla Sky ?. I am planning to go by myself this weekend. I did that several week ago w/ spy game, it was good but don't weep for true love. R movies, my 2 D can't go.

RH, sorry to hear about W, I wish I had something profound to say, all I can say is, hang in there. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Even if your W like your cards, poem ... she will not tell you , Venusian's thing. <hr></blockquote>You are right, But it does affect her emotionally, even if she don't say a word. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Yeah Vanilla Sky looks ok, My W would like that one, I want to see LotR again. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Job interview today @ 2:30pm, Got my fingers crossed for this one, ALOT more $$$ than my last job.I hope I get it...Take care of yourselves, God Bless...P.S. Interview went well (I think), I have to call them back on monday with my decision, Lotsa money with this one. (Essentially the company is an agency to place people in professional jobs, instad of a company doing their own hiring, they contract out the company I applied to, to do the hiring for them) it is essentially a sales position. Downside : 11 Hour days, 1/2 day on saturday, I am somewhat reluctant to take it because I feel it would put a strain on the already stressed M. That is my only negative about this. Let me know what you think...[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Just Got off phone with W, Talked about interview and things, I told her about the hours and asked her "if she decides to come home would she have any problem with the long hours?" and she said no.I asked about what time she was going to call in the morning, she said about 10:00-10:30. I said ok, and she said she had to go(Making dinner, One of her responsibilities for living there, so she says...)So I told her I love her and I miss her, and we said goodbye.Not a "cold" conversation , But it wasn't exactly "warm" either, Kind of in between.I don't know what is going to happen tomorrow(if she even calls) I hope she is considering coming home, but in her last call she said she didn't know "how"? What does she mean by that? don't know how to leave him? or how she is going to "make it up to me"? I didn't ask, but now I'm curious.Any Ideas???

Torizo,
WW usually realizes that the grass is not that green after all but still mowing on it. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] If I were you I would not ask her just to come home yet. Let her be to find out "the taste of the grass". A will die sooner or later. When it does you ask her also to work on M as a condition, including no contact letter. If you take her now in the middle of the fog you will have half of a woman (picking Orchid term). You will have an issue of making her a complete woman for you later. Unless you are sure you could handle it.I don't know what is going to happen tomorrow(if she even calls) I hope she is considering coming home, but in her last call she said she didn't know "how"? What does she mean by that? don't know how to leave him? or how she is going to "make it up to me"? I didn't ask, but now I'm curious. Any Ideas???
She is a bit confused, that is good, your plan A is taking effect. Let her know the home door is always open but with one condition to work on M as MB prescribe, including no contact letter. Otherwise keep plan A'ng her and wait until the A dies. There is no retribution to us (BS) my freind, only a chance to work on fulfilling M.[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>When it does you ask her also to work on M as a condition, including no contact letter. <hr></blockquote>
Definate Conditions, as well as MB Maritial Recovery Agreement. <blockquote>quote:<hr> If you take her now in the middle of the fog you will have half of a woman (picking Orchid term). You will have an issue of making her a complete woman for you later. Unless you are sure you could handle it. <hr></blockquote>Even if I asked her to come home now, I think ther is still some time spent away from home, after all OM has to get his @$$ back to NY where he belongs. And I know she won't just "leave" him at her friends house.As for the half a woman, It can't be much harder than waiting while you know in the back of your mind she is having a "good" time with what she is doing.It is probably hard though. And besides, I can't even be sure she wants to "really" come home at this point.I've handled it up til' now, and have no plans of giving up. I think I could do it, with all of your guys(and girls)help. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Let her know the home door is always open but with one condition to work on M as MB prescribe, including no contact letter. <hr></blockquote>I think she know about the door being open, but I will still reaffirm that idea. I'll tell her about the "conditions" today, if it comes down to she wants to come home. <blockquote>quote:<hr> There is no retribution to us (BS) my freind, only a chance to work on fulfilling M. <hr></blockquote>Ain't it the truth...So, we will see what happens, I'll post after we talk.(If she calls).

Just got off the phone with W, She told me she has been thinking alot lately about things, and she said she is willing to come home and commit to our M. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] So I told her the conditions of coming home and she said they were ok with her. She has told me she thinks it could potentiall work with OM, but she lays in bed at night thinking of me, and if what she has done is a mistake, so she has decided to give our M another chance.Unfortunately(isn't there always a downside to the better moments?) she doesn't know what to do with OM, his friends in NY have his stuff, and he has no more Apt. in NY. I asked/told her some suggestions, either he can move in with a friend in NY(Preferred) or he can get himself an Apt. here(Not preffered).She said she will talk with him, she told him last night that she was thinking of coming home, He told her he loves her, and that he was afraid this would happen.She also said, the reason she hasn't told me this sooner is he is ALWAYS right there with her, if she takes the phone to another room, he follows her, always afraid it is me she is talking to.(Can we say possesive?)She said she would call me next chance she gets, and we would talk some more.Oh and the highlight to our conversation: She said she loves me,(Yes she really said it) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] She said she has never stopped loving me, and that she misses me as well. I told her how much I love her and miss her, and reaffirmed the fact that "home" is always open to her. We said our I love yous and said goodbye...BTW She says she hopes to come home by the end of next week.Things are starting to look up finally, and I have all of you to thank. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You would be proud of me, No LBs, no anger, no judgement, I just listened and responded,(Thinking out my words before I said them).
Thank You All for being here for me, and thank you Harleys for the wonderful books,and an amazing website.I am eternally Grateful...No, don't even think for a minute I'm leaving, I'll still need help with things, and besides, I feel I should return some of the wisdom bestowed upon me, and therefore I will remain here trying to help others the best I can.[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
I am glad that W's OM LB'ed ... heh heh heh, try to hand cuff her (posessive). You could only hand couff your W w/ love & care [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Yes, I would think of you differently if you don't do some posting to help others [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . There so many of them (BS/WS) and so little of us who could spend time. Recovery update will be nice too. Jumping ahead ... let your W to post to help WS around here ... there even fewer of them.Good luck on your job search too.

Thanks Rh, At this point, It still(has it ever changed) is about waiting, but at least it is a good waiting now. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I couldn't not post to help others, You all have shown me support, now to return that. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I am glad that W's OM LB'ed ... heh heh heh, try to hand cuff her (posessive). You could only hand couff your W w/ love & care . <hr></blockquote>I guess love IS the key to everthing after all...After a while, when we get things "normal" I will probably show her my postings and encourage her to post as well.But that is in the future.BTW - The job that I interveiwed for the hours are 8:45am-7:45pm M-T, 8:45am-4:00pm F, & 8:45am 12:00pm On Sat. My drawback to that is: Should I leave my wife alone that much? I mean it will be hard to get that 15hrs of undivided attention in. Or should I consider a job with less hours? I have til' monday to let them know, and I don't know what to do.

Hi Torizo,I am so happy for you! You have really been working hard to save your marriage. W is lucky to have you. I think letting her read your posts later will help her to see how devoted you have been. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] keep us informed. I will always value your input! About the job is there any possibility of negotiating hours??
PerduPerdu

Hey, P how's things with you?Yeah it's been hard, But the work is starting to pay off finally.BTW did you know my post is 115pgs. in MS word? Thats amazing. <blockquote>quote:<hr> About the job is there any possibility of negotiating hours??
<hr></blockquote>Thats what I want, but there is no room for negotiation, the hours are as they have them. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
And I don't feel it is a "good" thing to be awy fro home that much, not in our current state of affairs, No pun intended. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] What is a person to do?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
BTW - The job that I interveiwed for the hours are 8:45am-7:45pm M-T, 8:45am-4:00pm F, & 8:45am 12:00pm On Sat. My drawback to that is: Should I leave my wife alone that much? I mean it will be hard to get that 15hrs of undivided attention in. Or should I consider a job with less hours? I have til' monday to let them know, and I don't know what to do.<hr></blockquote>First thing first ..., did you get accepted ?. you have to survive and eat. W/ some extra $$$ you could afford going out w/ her more often like a date to se LoTR. 15 hours could be done w/ your hours and you have no kid. You could talk with W before accepting the job and put together a POJA to find 15 hours MINIMUM ! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

<blockquote>quote:<hr> First thing first ..., did you get accepted ?. <hr></blockquote> If I decide to take it, I have til monday to make MY decision.I suppose the 15hrs Could be met, But my hangup is: Now just beginning to "recover" our M, if I am away all the time, how can I be certain A)W isn't having contact with OM? B)with out me there more often, I may fail to meet ENs and then we could be right back where we started.This job is not the ONLY job I have a choice on, but it does pay the most, however he can survive on a lot less than this job pays.I think I'm just scared of her contacting OM because I'm not there for companionship.

Torizo,
Good work ... talk w/ W and start learning on two way communication. And also delay when you start the new job so that you could have time away together with her.There is a will there is a way. You will never be sure but you could limit the possibilties. That is why you start the recovery w/ 4 rules and POJA.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
This job is not the ONLY job I have a choice on, but it does pay the most, however he can survive on a lot less than this job pays.I think I'm just scared of her contacting OM because I'm not there for companionship.<hr></blockquote>
Talk to her and see what she has to say, decision is hers too. When does she come home ?.

Yeah I have to still talk to her about all of the job, and my concerrns as well.She is talking about coming home the end of next week, OM needs somewhere to go first.OMs friends in NY have all his stuff, He no longer has apt in NY, and he can't stay @ Friends house of W, So he either goes back to NY and lives with a friend, or he gets apt here.So, you see my concerns about no contact, it could be a temptation to her, and that does not leave "us" in a good situation.We will see what she says about job, and I'll decide based on that, I think.

Hi T,It's not just the quantity, it's the quality. Remember that. So if you are busy, working to provide for your family and you don't make the 15 hour mark. You will not be fired for being a bad H or father, if you make the time you do spend quality time. I mean some people think bonding time is sitting on a couch with the other one in the chair not speaking all night and watching TV. Not quality time. So think of ways to make it memorable. That can cause anticipation for the next 'quality moment'! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] L.

All very good advice. So I guess, Provided she don't mind I'm going to take this job.It's a time for new beginnings so to speak, new job, new career field for me, new marriage, and a new me.Wow, talk about introspection...Thank you all.

Ya know, I'll never look at two words the same ever again, Waffling, and fog. They will never have a "normal" meaning. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Anyways...I talked to W about the job and if she had any problems with the hours and such, She said I should take the job(For the $$$) and the hours wouldn't bother her that much, if at all.So ther is one "problem" out of the way. We also talked about us, Now comes the part I hate, She is waffling now, Earlier in the morning phone call, she sounded like she had made up her mind TO come home, She misses me, she loves me, she wants to make this work. Now, she says she hasn't made up her mind TO come home, she says she is THINKING of coming home.(WTF is that about?) and she hasn't told OM her "true" intentions.Why oh why, does this have to be a "chore" would you just make up your mind already? In two weeks and one day she will have been gone two full months, She has had plenty of time to think about this, now figure out what you want already. Geez... [Sorry for Venting like that, It just Pi$$3s me off] How one can be so undecided in such a short time.So, now it's back to square 1 1/2, For her to "decide" what she wants.I'm about ready to take a drive, and smack some sense into OM. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] But, alas I am more man than that, and thus I have refrained from causing him bodily harm, so far.....So, Now What???[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Now what?!?!? You have done your part for now. Find a good movie. Go the gym. Post to someone here who needs help. Bug Red Hat. Clean the house (oops that's my choice of torture tonight - he he he). Rearrange your furniture (that might be an LB or a refreshing change. Get some rest. Maybe others will have other ideas!!L.

You do make me smile, I have done all of that except bug Redhat. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] If I only had some phone numbers.... Just Kidding. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Anyways, I told W I would send her som info from SAA, and she said that it was ok. I sent her all four rules, Time, honesty, protection, and care. as well as maritial recovery agreement, how to end an A the right way,Managing resentment and restoring trust. You get the idea. I got bored one evening last week and typed all these things out in MS word. (It helps to essentially memorize them all), guess they had other plusses too. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] So now it's back to waiting once again... Maybe I'll get my lazy @$$ up tomorrow and go see LotR again.Good luck with house tonight O, I did mine in the first two weeks after W left, I must say, I got rid of alot of "garbage" I just did not need. and with all of her stuff gone, there's even less to worry about around here.But, I do miss her, and wish to God that she would make up her mind, The "waiting game" is driving me crazy.But, Gotta hang in there.

Torizo,
I am sneezing ... someone calling my name. I am not that easy being bugged, I am the nosy one ... CA style. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . While you are waiting you could get my update & evnting [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (hijack your thread). This morning I have my conseling w/ SH. I already knew what he is going to say about the whole skiing trip & LB'ed situation. You are doing fine and hang in there, your plan A is taking effect. I don't even see a shread of light ... my tunnel is still dark, and is getting pitch dark !. SH agreed for me to get an attorney to check on child custody but only as info and not to tell WW about it, even if I could file separation and get temporary custody, a step to physical custody. He is a purist on MB ... Thy shall not use anything to interfere w/ A. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] No disrepect but I don't think he taste the 'coaster ride as a BS ... I don't even bring up the missing person report, I knew the answer. So here I am trying to do plan A'ng my gut out.My WW didn't join my 2 D "pick a restaurant night" again ... going to get her "medicine", she said. I notice she is wearing pearl earring (her Christmas present from me). I didn't even get a card or greeting and she is wearing it to go out w/ OM ?. I don't know where I got the stomach to kiss her on the cheek and walked away w/o LB. I know I won't see her 'till probably Sunday noon (lower expectation work well with my no LB trick). I told SH that WW always turns the dial pain one more stripe up when I could handle it. He still told me to improve my plan A !!!!, improve the changes I have made one knot higher every time. Arrrgh, even half of me make BE prowling !!!. I think I am too honest w/ SH, I should give him indications that I am running of breath. He might allow me to go to plan B in a hurry. Probably also my mistake of telling SH that WW is coached by OM (2x Dv) to destroy my M, SH won't take any chances.
Enough venting. T, now you know where I learn to look thing from a strange angle. - Nope, I am not a doormat, I am letting her go completely. -Now after a few grande margaritas at fresh mex-Chevy's, I feel lighten up a bit. I am ready to watch the SCORE that I just picked up from Blockbuster. Of course after lurking some other posts.[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

I guess after that all said and done, it does take a "strange" viewpoint.All I can say is hang in there.Because thats all I can do at the moment, Here I thought W WAS ready to come home, now she says she is THINKING of coming home.The fog is creeping back in...
I am starting to feel now, that she really isn't coming home, and the longer she is away, the less it matters. I still love her, but it is not as intense of a feeling as it was just Two short months ago. I feel as if I have already lost her, and nothing I can do now will bring her back. Is this a "normal" feeling? am I perceiving this the "right" way?I just don't know anymore... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img][ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

The roller coaster rides in your part of the woods!!! Feels yucky?!?? I am sorry for this turn of events. But your being aware or warned helps reduce the impact. Instead of being in shock/anxiety then anger/frustration, etc. you may be able to jump farther down the road and handle the stress a bit better. It doesn't make it go away just handle it better. IMHO, you are doing good. You have support and able to keep a fairly level head so far. That is GOOD!!! What lies ahead is anyone's guess. The roller coaster is in the fog so we can't always see where it is headed. Makes the ride more scary and we don't even have access to the controls!! I hope she rethinks or even thinks period! When her gray cells start working your chances of recovery for your M may improve. At least you know you are becoming a better person. Let that be your source of encouragment for now. DON'T FORGET!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Take Care,
L.

Yes, hang on. It is a downward 'coaster. You just have to ride it, no choice. WW will comes around again when they are out of it a bit. Now, go see Vanilla Sky and tell me about it [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

I don't know about vanilla sky, But I did go see LotR again. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I may be doing good, and I may be hanging on for now, but I just can't do this anymore, I feel like...for her this is all "fun and games", but for me it is torture. I can't stand to be caught up in this "game" anymore. I want to tell her to mak up her damn mind already, either come home or get rid of me, I feel I'm being led around on a string, and I just can't do it...I have to have some "direction" in life, not this "Limbo" I'm in. I feel, I can no longer "better" my chances of her coming home. I have made me a better person through all of this, but she gets me and him, it's "playtime" for her right now, and I want it to be over. she knows damn well when she gets done "playing" that I'll be right there to take her back,(not without conditions of course).I sooooo want her to feel pain like I have felt, Though I know in my heart that I'm not that cruel. I sooooo want to go where they are and beat the F@#$ out of OM for coming in between our M. But I don't think it would do any good.I'm tired of feeling helpless, and I hate this other feeling too. It's like the love for her is no longer slowly draining out of the LB$, now, anytime I think of them together it falls out in chunks, If I were to give it amounts, it used to be 3-4 LB$ here and there now its like 30-40 LB$ when I think of them, and how in her mind this "game" she is playing.I know it shouldn't bother me, but it is starting to, She has been gone from our "home" for 1 1/2 months so far... and there is very little to believe in, or to hope for.I'm sorry if I vent, but there is no one else to talk to who understands. Monday I'm probably going to take this job, just for the sheer spite of it. The salary from the new position after 1 year is 3 times what I made at my last job, I feel the need to take it, just so in the meantime of her "game" I can live somewhat happily. while she can suffer with him. When we were together, I was her Financial Support, if she needed something, anything at all, I got it for her, even at the cost of my happiness, I never MADE her get a job, and since we moved where we are, she has worked a total of 1 month, out of 8 we have been here. Now, she is "trying" to make a life with someone who, don't even have a job right now, let alone buy her everything. I know I know, Money isn't everything, you are right, but she IS giving that up. I want to be ther for her, I want to work on our M, But I can't hold on forever, and personally, when he is around her, she seems to care about HIS needs and respects HIM more than me, and I have spent 4 years with her, That F&*^ing P!$$3s me off even more.I want to tell her these things but I can't because it would be LB big time.I don't know what to do, and I don't know how to express these concerns in a non-LB way...Guess I'm F*&^ed until SHE decides what to do. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Well, I don't think that addressing those issues have to be an LB. You know what I found??? The more I did for my H the less he appreciate us. I was enabling him, I was his crutch and in his selfish mode he was going to take advantage of me all the way. He even said so but didn't understand why he was doing it. He was confused and mad at himself but said he also couldn't help it. Crazy?? Dumb???? Fog????? Yes, yes yes. So I started giving him more responsibility and that is where we are now. He is doing more feeling more a part of the family and appears to be headed in the right direction. For the first time he told me that he appreciated how much I have been working to keep the family afloat. I had thanked him for helping me with a problem and he replied that he did not do as much as I had. While this was true, the teamwork made it possible for both of us to accomplish this task and I mentioned that to him. He seemed to like that thought. Slo and steady...... Take Care,
L.

My isuue is, I want her home, and she doesn't know what to do, I want her home, I told her what I have learned about myself, MB and all of you, But she is also worried about how OM feels. Ya know, I should be "more" important in her life, F#$% OM, he knew what he was getting into by meeting a married woman, he knew that it had to end some time, so don't hand me some bs line about his feelings. He knew and so did you, those are the consequences of an A. Period.I want to make that a point to her. She does not realize the pain and suffering of me, I at least have some grasp on the pain I have caused her, and I of course can't be positive, but I'm sure it has paled in comparison to the pain of the A.I am just worn out from this "game" they play. I want her to make up her F#$%ing mind, she has had six weeks now to Love him, sc#$w him. whatever she has wanted to do, all the time, I sit here, trying to get a better job, hold our bills together, and make a place for "our" future, what gratitude have I got? none, not a damn thing, I'm tired of being "on the side" to OM, it is time she realized it is NOT a "game" anymore. I have tolerated it long enough already. Now it is time, him or me, chose one. That is how I feel.I am very quickly approaching the end of my rope. I can not, no will not hold on forever.Is there any "last resort" without LB? or do I really have "no choice" here? I want her back, but I can't remain in limbo...Update : Talked To W, said she loves me and doesn't know what to do with her situation, She says she feels stuck, she knows it is her fault, and doesn't know what to do...Then she tells me she will call me tomorrow after church. (This floors me, I have been asked once or twice in the past two years to go to church, I have said no, but it was because I was blind to her needs. I know its no excuse, but that is my only defense. Since the beginning of this A, I have become somewhat religious, praying ect. but now she is going to church with OM, and it hurts me to think of this.) also, how ironic, one cheating spouse and the other a low life scum sucking man who couldn't even find his own woman and has to "take" someone elses. and they are in church, together at that. I think God hates me, he is "letting" this happen. (I get the picture big guy, I screwed up and wasn't there for my wife, I realize that, what more do you want from me? Priesthood?) anyways, so this hurts and just adds to the pain I already feel.So I guess W and me are going to talk tomorrow(if she truly calls).I am so tired, I am mentally worn out at this point. I can't remember a time in my life that I felt like this.My mind aches....[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Wait..... how God views people and what people think how God views them are 2 very different things. The Bible says God hates a divorcing and that adultery is a sin. So showing up in church does not absolve the sin. K?You do what you know is right. You are not a saint but your current lifestyle does not promote adultery either. So if they go to church or not is not something you need to think that God approves of. They are just going to church. Individually they need to make their amends with God. When the elders spoke with us, they said that adultery is the one sin that God allows the BS to forgive. So it is not just up to God, it is also up to you. That was not their opinion, it is backed up by scripture. L.

I'm sorry O, I was venting and got "caught up" in the typing. I did not mean it that way.what I meant is I feel that I have done something wrong in God's eyes. I know he hates divorce and adultery is a sin. so why does it happen?I am willing to forgive my W for what has been done, but it makes me mad that she is going to church with OM, when it SHOULD be me next to her.(Not that it looks bad, considering she isn't wearing her ring)I'm just upset, it seems like she so likes the life she chooses to keep living, with only short breaks in it called reality. I'm losing love for her rapidly now, and I feel there is no way to stop it, her A NEEDS to come to an end soon, or I fear I will have no will to care about it anymore.Though her Love Bank account isn't in the Red yet, it will be soon, if she doesn't stop the A, I want to tell her, or have someone tell her. I just don't know how, and have no one to do it for me.The clock is ticking, and time is running out...[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,HE gave us choice, even Lucifer & Angels have choice. WW choose to have A and we choose to fight the A. With your WW, it shows how deep of a fog she is in right now. Having adulterous life and going to HIS HOUSE ???.Actually your WW is not having good time at all time. There are times when WS wonders too, remember you can not get high all the time and sooner or later the addiction needs higher dose !!!!. They are confused. When with OM they are happy but w/ your plan A'ng, WW get confused and start wondering. W/ no LB, you make your WW stares at A point blank. Waffling is common as a side effect.Do not LB'ed tommorow talking to W, do not even mention about Relation at all. Talk about going to see Vanilla Sky or LoTHR !!!. Listen Torizo, you have come this close don't blew it up. OM & WW don't hold job ... how long they could stand it ? and living on WW's freind's place ... how long do you think before the hosts LB'ed ?. When I read your first few posts she want to Dv you !!! and not talking to you. Now she is waffeling meaning that she is confused. She is talking w/ you and considering to go out. You are about to have better $$$ and resolving your finance. Wait a bit longer and make sure you plan up for plan B. At least will get you busy for a while.Stand firm on no contact & working on M as a condition otherwise either keep plan A'ng or move on to plan B.

[Though her Love Bank account isn't in the Red yet, it will be soon, if she doesn't stop the A, I want to tell her, or have someone tell her. I just don't know how, and have no one to do it for me.]T,
Hang in there man you've come a long way don't give up now.
I would like to respond to your quote above.Did you ever consider to ask God to tell her?
You have been a righteous man throughout this whole thing and the Bible does say "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:16You say that church and religion was one of your wifes needs?Pray for a complete healing of your marriage if you havn't allready and when she calls you tell her what you have said here about getting closer to God, tell her that you have been praying alot lately and while you have her on the phone, ask her, no tell her that you want to pray with her right now. If she gives you the chance good, go with it and emediatly begin to pray out loud first giveing thanks for protecting her and keeping her safe, ask God again to heal your marriage and make it possible for love and happieness to return to your relationship in Jesus name amen. Thats it, it doesn't have to be long and complicated, this is how God wants us to pray.
She may not like it at first because she might feel convicted but remember, "the prayer of a righteous man is POWERFUL and EFFECTIVE"
God Bless, I'll pray for you too.SH

Thank you all, I will talk to her today, no LBs, and the prayer idea is good. I am hanging on, and I will perservere through this.Yesterday was just a bad day, I needed to vent, and I did. I feel in a more "calm & peaceful" mood today.I am ready to give it my all, with all of my resolve and all of my will, and with God's grace, May He make our lives "good" again, and may we find happiness in each other and in Him. Our lord Jesus Christ, Amen.I want to thank you all for being here, and helping me through my troubled times.
I want to return the favor somehow, and either way my M goes, I will still be here at MB, to pass on the wisdom that has been given to me.Wish me luck...and pray...

Torizo,I am so sorry. I was thinking of you this weekend and hopin all was going well with you. Don't give up. You have come a long way. W is thinking about things. I also have the feeling she will begin to start thinking about OM w/o a job. I am sure it is fun for now. He can give attentions 24/7. But in the long run... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Hang in there Torizo. I am not one to really be able to give adice but your situation does not sound hopeless. I understand your frustration at how much can one person take and for how long. Only you know that answer.Perdu

Thanks P, I'm trying to hang on,trying I say... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I hope she has some "good" news today on the phone.

And so the fog thickens...I just called W, she said she was on her way out the door. So i asked her "where she was going to?", she said "12:30 mass". (Sounds fishy) So I asked her why she didn't call me at 11:00. Her response, (You'll like this) "I thought I said I would call you at 1:00?" my response to that "no you said you would call me at 11:00 after you got back from church". her response to that "no I'm pretty sure I said I would call you at 1:00" So I left it at that.Ok, if she is going to mass @ 12:30 she couldn't possibly say she is going to call me at 1:00, and not be lying.So I asked her "when are you going to call me back?" she said "3:00-4:00. (Wow thats some long mass). So I told her I love her,and I miss her, and that I will talk to her later.It pi$$3$ me off to know she is lying to me, and I have a good mind to tell her to stay with OM if he makes you so F#$%ing happpy. But I love her too much still to do that, and besides, I want her to do D papers, that way when she "wakes up" and realizes it's a mistake,(Or A dies) and she should have stayed with me, or at least given me the chance to try to make M better, she can deal with the hurt it will cause.I know it is an act of revenge, and I never have wanted to cause her any kind of pain, I think it is the worst pain I can inflict on her, short of my own A, (Which I would never do).I at least still wear my ring, and am totally commited to our M vows (At least one of us is [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )I have prayed to God for help, and the will to understand this, I have prayed for her to have a clear mind and heart in order to "see", I have poured my heart out to God. Yet this still continues. Why God, why must this continue? I understand what I have done wrong, I am comitted to M, please help her now, help my wife to understand...In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.I'm losing hope, and love...and I fear M will follow...

Torizo,Here is my old link if it will help you. T why don't you go out from the house, go to Rock 'N Roll Hall of Fame or something. Did you go to church to day ? I need someone to tell me about Vanilla Sky.Hey, hope the ring that you are wearing is not "the Master Ring - The One Ring that rule them all". [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...About your WW, when you call, put a lower expectation. You know they are under the spell of A, they will cheat, lie, deceive and do thing that is not themself. Go out from the house, do something that you could talk about to WW. I have not see the Flat yet, just when they clean up the area I was graduated from CaseW. You are the clear headed one, hold on and put a time line (don't tell WW). Don't call her for now and let her call you.

After I find out about the job tomorrow, I'll decide when to go see it. either tuesday or next sunday. I haven't decided yet. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Hey, hope the ring that you are wearing is not "the Master Ring - The One Ring that rule them all". <hr></blockquote>Nope, not that ring my friend. I wear a ring that is supposed to symbolize love, trust, and hope. It does symbolize that for me, and also the goal I am looking to attain : A better M, and the whole reason, I am doing all this. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Se has yet to call back, and I am sitting here watching tv, and the snow falling outside. I'm going to cook something for dinner in a bit, and hopefully W will have something good to say. but I won't get my hopes up.

W called me, just now. She said it's over, she doesn't want to work our M out, She is in love with OM, and she has a new life now.(Those were her exact words)She said as soon as she gets money she is going to file(could take six months, as she nor OM have jobs and have no money)At this point I am ready to file myself, whatever love was left in the LoveBank is gone, The bank is broke. There is only an empty space left in my heart, and in time, it will mend.Thank you all... for trying to help me through this...and for being there for me...I am eternally indebted to you all...But it was to no avail, in saving this M. at least, I am a better person, but it is small consolation to this loss...I can't believe it... after all this time trying...It's over.[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
Sorry to hear this but how the conversation started ?. do you push her ? <blockquote>quote:<hr>At this point I am ready to file myself, whatever love was left in the LoveBank is gone, The bank is broke. There is only an empty space left in my heart, and in time, it will mend.
<hr></blockquote>
Do not file it yourself, let her do it.How do you parted ?. detail please. And consider plan B so that your effort on plan A is not wasted.

Dear T,I can see you are really hurting now. In this time of your pain, I would like to ask you to do me a favor..... please step back and note that even her current babbling (love om stuff) is another swing in the pendelum. You are well within your right to stop the M now. But I ask you to let it settle and note if it will swing again the other way. If you can, it may be worth the wait. If you can not, no one is going to blame you. For you have done your best in this horrible waiting game. Please don't stop posting here. We are concerned about you. Take Care,
L.

T,Man I got to tell you, I'm in the same boat. I havn't been posting lately b/c it has been the same old crap. W said she would stay with me the other night. I thought "finaly, she has made a sollid commitment, none of that mabey crap." Then, when she showed up she didn't know what she wanted, and to top it off, in order to decide what she wanted, she headed right back to OM's house.I think you and I are both well within our rights to file for D. I think Orchid would agree that no one would foult either of us for doing that. Remember this though: If we file today, it is probably the LB of all time. There is realy no turning back after that. I like to keep my options open. As long as I don't file I have specific options. If I file, those options dissapear. Others come about, but not the ones I have now.You have worked very hard and have made great progress. Don't let a setback destroy all you have done. Do what you feel is best for you, but remember the future, and all the options it has, depends on how you handle yourself right now.Thanks,
Rev[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: rev ]

Hi all, sorry I posted this late, I have spent the past, 4 hours on the phone with an old friend, talking about what happened, and catching up on life.Redhat,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Sorry to hear this but how the conversation started ?. do you push her ?<hr></blockquote>She just called me up, and basically said "It's over, I do not want to try and work on M any longer, I am with James now, And I am happy. I do not believe you can change in six weeks, let alone change at all, I just can't do this anymore.And She said Goodbye, and hung up.I did not push her into the decision, she has made it herself... <blockquote>quote:<hr>And consider plan B so that your effort on plan A is not wasted. <hr></blockquote>There is no more to do, I will plan B now, because I have NO intent of contacting her. there is VERY little love in the Lovebank, I think I realized that today.But is there a point to Plan B now? She essentially wants out of M now.Orchid,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> I would like to ask you to do me a favor..... please step back and note that even her current babbling (love om stuff) is another swing in the pendelum <hr></blockquote>I only hope you are right... <blockquote>quote:<hr> You are well within your right to stop the M now. But I ask you to let it settle and note if it will swing again the other way. If you can, it may be worth the wait. If you can not, no one is going to blame you. For you have done your best in this horrible waiting game. <hr></blockquote>I, even after all of this am still going to hang on...Until the papers are final(Though I doubt she will change her mind any), there is still a ray of hope. But I will no longer contact her, she will have to contact me.
Rev,
<blockquote>quote:<hr>I like to keep my options open. As long as I don't file I have specific options. If I file, those options dissapear. Others come about, but not the ones I have now.
<hr></blockquote>That is very true, I fully agree with that. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Don't let a setback destroy all you have done.
Do what you feel is best for you, but remember the future, and all the options it has, depends on how you handle yourself right now <hr></blockquote>At the very least, I know I have changed for the better. If it can't "save" this marriage, at least it will help me to "Better care for" whoever I am with in the future.Thank you all, I will continue to update anything else(as little as there is) about W and Situation. I will not leave MB, I have work to do here, helping others to hopefully avoid this.All of you mean alot to me, And I am thankful for you. May God bless each one of your lives, as he has blessed mine to find you.Amen.BTW : I talked to MIL last night, she has told W to send back the ring(Which is MIL's) and W has yet to send it back. (lack of $$$, I don't know)But as soon as she does send them back, then I at least know W is serious about D.Goodnight all, I will be back tomorrow. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Job Update : Talked to company, They have a few more interviews, and the will definately let me know on thursday. Oh, I hope I get it.Wish Me Luck. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
Driven by my curious nature, one of this day will kill me [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .... what W meant by "change" in her statement I do not believe you can change in six weeks, let alone change at all. What didn't she see ?. You end plan A when WS acknowledge your changes but still waffle w/ starting plan B. Don't get me wrong in here, you also end plan A if your LB$ is in the red zone. Just wanted to know so that "the change" is the one that you should carry on w/o her so that for the next relation you are completely irresistable. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Yes, there is a point to plan B. You put your bet on your past memory with her and slight taste of the future while you are plan A'ng. It is the last resort. Also, you never know, 6 months is a long time, 6x30x24x60x60 seconds [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . A might die. Just curious, how do you think she & OM lived w/o job ?. The very selfishness that lead to A will kill A ... w/ time. <blockquote>quote:<hr>BTW : I talked to MIL last night, she has told W to send back the ring(Which is MIL's) and W has yet to send it back. (lack of $$$, I don't know)But as soon as she does send them back, then I at least know W is serious about D.<hr></blockquote>
Don't read anything into it. When the fog is in, you better beleive what they are capable of doing. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Job Update : Talked to company, They have a few more interviews, and the will definately let me know on thursday. Oh, I hope I get it.Wish Me Luck.<hr></blockquote>
At least the new job will get you out of the house [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

T, How are you doing tonight?L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> what W meant by "change" in her statement I do not believe you can change in six weeks, let alone change at all. What didn't she see ?. <hr></blockquote>From what I can make of it, apparently she cant see how I have changed in these six weeks(Kind of hard to show the full potential of changes when I am not around her) an I guess she doesn't think I am capable of change. I have been nothing but sweet towards her, caring, listening intently to what she says, and no LBs, So I don't understand it myself. (I think she wants a "reason" to end our M, and this is her excuse to do so.)I will still continue to make me a better person, even if the changes can't save this M, They can be appreciated in the next relationship...Hopefully. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Just curious, how do you think she & OM lived w/o job ?. The very selfishness that lead to A will kill A ... w/ time.
<hr></blockquote>I guess her friend is supporting them, My W does housework, babysits, and cooks in exchange for living there, and her friend buys whatever W and OM need to live. (It must be nice to have friends like that, If I can't pay for what I need, I have no one to help me out.I only hope A dies, before D is final. and even then there is no guarantee to W coming back,I think she honestly does not want to work on M, and this is her "easy" out. (I am of course basing this on our last conversation)I don't know what to think of this situation any more. I hope she is "happy" with the decisions she is making right now. <blockquote>quote:<hr> How are you doing tonight? <hr></blockquote>Hey O, I'm doing better today than yesterday.
I was invited over to a friends house(just to get out of my house) and me her and her husband sat around and bs'd for awhile, and watched TV, It was a change to be out of here, and it felt good to "get away" for awhile. But, here I am again, with my new friends, and if I might personally say, what seems like family. I cannot thank you all enough. BTW - I sen Plan B letter to W today, both Email(she rarely checks it) and Snail mail. I wonder if it will get any reaction from her?Have a good evening, and God bless.

Torizo,I read this after I wrote it and thought it may work for you, and it may not. Mabey someone else can gain from it. Remember, we take what we need from this board and leave the rest. Feel free to leave all of this if you want. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] T,I'm feeling a bit left out here, and I can't keep up with this thread to save my back side.This ring thing, got me to thinking. I don't know squat about this ring, and I'm not going back to find out. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] What did catch my eye, is that MIL wants it back after finding out about A. It seems to me that now her family is involved, and not very happy about it. This goes back to the "6 mo. after exposure" issue.I know I have that way of saying things a bit backwards, and mabey a bit course or offensive, but most people can figure out what I'm trying to get accross. I'm going to do it again, so bear with me.1. No jobs.
I don't think that life is going to get any easier for this R in the future. Love is important, but the human animal will forgo love and sex for shelter. They have also been known to eat loved ones under extream situations. My point here is how long can this situation continue before it destroys itself.2. Family division.
My mom and dad have always been there for me. Unless I was doing something that they dissaproved of. If MIL is not happy about this, I imagine FIL is as unhappy. Unhappy parents don't loan money as easily as happy ones, and without jobs, repayment is difficult. This only adds to the no job issue. add that to this thought: My parrents are also realy good at letting me know when they don't approve of what I'm doing, and making me feel real bad about it. (I wish my MIL would be as convincing as my parents)Too me, the deck is stacked against the A. I wouldn't want to be in that situation for long. I also know that sometimes it takes a while to figure out how bad things are, and sometimes things need to get prety bad before a person evaluates the situation. Every night around the world there are rooms full of people who know how bad life needs to be, and how long it needs to be that bad to make a person change behavior. Their called AA meetings. These same rooms and people are proof that when life gets bad enough, people change their environment. She will change her world eventualy. She will have a choice to start a compleatly new life, return to a life she knows she doesn't like, or start a new life with someone she has learned can meet her needs. Like it or not, she's not going back to the life she left. She may start a new life, but I would think it would be easier to return to a life where she already knows her needs will be met and she will be happy again.Just somthing to think about.Thanks,
Rev

Rev,
<blockquote>quote:<hr>1. No jobs.
I don't think that life is going to get any easier for this R in the future. Love is important, but the human animal will forgo love and sex for shelter. They have also been known to eat loved ones under extream situations. My point here is how long can this situation continue before it destroys itself. <hr></blockquote>I laughed at this one, Eat loved ones, I don't know why it just sounded funny in my brain.OM is supposed to find out today about a job, I of course don't know if he got it, as I am not calling W anymore. She can call me from now on.As for the "ring" the ring she has for wedding ring is her mother's, and her mom (My MIL) would like to have it back if W is serious about this. She(MIL) is going to try to contact W tommorrow. As for FIL, he could care less about W, MIL & FIL are divorced. <blockquote>quote:<hr> She will change her world eventualy. She will have a choice to start a compleatly new life, return to a life she knows she doesn't like, or start a new life with someone she has learned can meet her needs. Like it or not, she's not going back to the life she left. She may start a new life, but I would think it would be easier to return to a life where she already knows her needs will be met and she will be happy again.
<hr></blockquote>I don't want our life to be as it was, I want to make our marriage based on MB principals. She has said, I didn't meet her needs, I know what they are and want to meet them. But, she won't give me the chance. She says she is happy with OM, because he meets her emotional needs, and that is what her decision to End M is based upon, He meets her needs, and I didn't, she can't see beyond him.(Ironically, the way she is acting with hime, in love, happy, can't get enough of hime, is EXACTALLY how our relationship started out, I mean absolutely, 100% the same) and that has me worried, because I know how "devoted" to me she was, and that is why I fear this is it for "us".I may have read what you said wrong Rev, but are you saying it is easier for her to stay in the life she has with OM, or it is easier to come back to me, so long as I meet her needs? I am a little confused... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

T,Didn't mean to confuse you. 2 out of 3 aint bad. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I don't want our life to be as it was, I want to make our marriage based on MB principals.<hr></blockquote>That is exactly what I was looking for. <blockquote>quote:<hr>she can't see beyond him.(Ironically, the way she is acting with hime, in love, happy, can't get enough of hime, is EXACTALLY how our relationship started out, I mean absolutely, 100% the same) and that has me worried, because I know how "devoted" to me she was, and that is why I fear this is it for "us".<hr></blockquote>This isn't so bad. Don't take this wrong. You wouldn't be here if your M hadn't fallen apart. Why did it fall apart? ENs. Again, what does he know about EN's, especialy hers, and at this point, why should he care? You still have the advantage my friend. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I may have read what you said wrong Rev, but are you saying it is easier for her to stay in the life she has with OM, or it is easier to come back to me, so long as I meet her needs? I am a little confused...<hr></blockquote>All I meant was, if the life she has with OM falls apart,(looks like it will) she will have to go somewhere. Her choices are 1. a new and diffrent life.(Scary) 2. The old you.(I don't think so) 3. The new you. (familiar, but better) What would would you do? And the more familiar and better it is, the better it is for you.Keep smiling.Thanks
Rev[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: rev ]

T,Rev has been too long living in the farm his word make me smile too [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] "They have also been known to eat loved ones under extream situations". Yes, A won't last for that very reason.WS will say anything to push you back. Just wait until she file. Good thing that you are in a very good spirit entering this plan B. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I don't want our life to be as it was, I want to make our marriage based on MB principals. She has said, I didn't meet her needs, I know what they are and want to meet them. But, she won't give me the chance. She says she is happy with OM, because he meets her emotional needs, and that is what her decision to End M is based upon, He meets her needs, and I didn't, she can't see beyond him.(Ironically, the way she is acting with hime, in love, happy, can't get enough of hime, is EXACTALLY how our relationship started out, I mean absolutely, 100% the same) and that has me worried, because I know how "devoted" to me she was, and that is why I fear this is it for "us".<hr></blockquote>
Every one in love will do the same thing, no exceptions. But A will burn out when reality hits. You have to make sure that you keep your focus.Check my new link on my sig ... A WS letter to WS but it helps BS too.

Hey guys,I just want you to know that, as "jacked up" (more Nebraska slang) as our situations are, it's good to know that we all can still laugh.Thanks,
Rev[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: rev ]

rev,
What is your situation ? any update ?

'eat loved ones'.....YUCK..... cannablism!! Oh yea, that's right in the fog we taste like chicken?!?!?!? LOL!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Vensuian antennas going up here!!! Your W likes being a maid and baby sitter?!?!?!? How fulfilling? I'm sorry but if a man met my need but I had to be someone elses' maid and baby sitter to get that done, I'd run out soo fast, I'd be out in a blink! Somethings' missin here. Like a viable A that will last for a lifetime. T, it is only a matter of time. Even maids need to get paid. So when you D and she has to show income, who is going to pay her taxes? How will she get medical/dental and auto insurance? Is this friend willing to pay the employer taxes for her? Household workers are suppose to be taxed. Hm...... federal case in the making here???? Maybe the fogese educational center has an answer for these low level logical questions. Hm..... I am not sure what emotional need the IRS is willing to allow on the 1040 as a writeoff to not paying taxes. That's just a piece of reality. Sounds more like the friend is meeting a need vs the OM. JMHO,
L.

Rev,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> All I meant was, if the life she has with OM falls apart,(looks like it will) she will have to go somewhere. Her choices are 1. a new and diffrent life.(Scary) 2. The old you.(I don't think so) 3. The new you. (familiar, but better) What would would you do? And the more familiar and better it is, the better it is for you. <hr></blockquote>Personally, I'd go with familiar, but better. But my W is so stubborn and adamant about D at this point I honestly think if A dies, she would just stay at friend's house and be a live-in nanny. (But that is my opinion.)Redhat,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Every one in love will do the same thing, no exceptions. But A will burn out when reality hits. You have to make sure that you keep your focus. <hr></blockquote>Six weeks so far, and no reality in sight. Focusing on my life at this point, and have come to accept the fact, I may end up without her.Orchid,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Oh yea, that's right in the fog we taste like chicken?!?!?!? LOL!! <hr></blockquote>Mmmmmm, Chicken........ [Homer Simpson] <blockquote>quote:<hr> Your W likes being a maid and baby sitter?!?!?!? How fulfilling?
<hr></blockquote>Apparently she must like doing it, she cooked and cleaned around here, but she would let things slide for a week and then only after I said something would she do it. So, what she is doing now must be so much better, because now she does it on a full time basis. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I'm sorry but if a man met my need but I had to be someone elses' maid and baby sitter to get that done, I'd run out soo fast, I'd be out in a blink! <hr></blockquote>You and me both, I never made her do anything around here, I would ask her to do things, but if she didn't do them, no big deal, I would do them myself. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I am not sure what emotional need the IRS is willing to allow on the 1040 as a writeoff to not paying taxes. <hr></blockquote>We have to ask Dr. Harley, I don't think there is an EN writeoff on the tax forms. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> Sounds more like the friend is meeting a need vs the OM. <hr></blockquote>Could be, I never thought of it like that.No new news I'm afraid... In my opinion, I think W will end M even if she's not happy with OM, based on :
1) She feels guilty, because OM moved here from NY to be with her, if she/they break up, he will have nowhere to go, and she feels bad for that. 2) I think she is just looking for an excuse to leave me, because she thinks I can't change, even though I have, and other people around me have noticed.I could be wrong, and we all know I'm no expert at this, but it's how I feel, and what I think.
Imput on this? Am I thinking correctly?, or do I just see the downside to this?

T, and all, <blockquote>quote:<hr>In my opinion, I think W will end M even if she's not happy with OM, based on :
1) She feels guilty, because OM moved here from NY to be with her, if she/they break up, he will have nowhere to go, and she feels bad for that.<hr></blockquote>Nobody can live forever on guilt alone. <blockquote>quote:<hr>2) I think she is just looking for an excuse to leave me, because she thinks I can't change, even though I have, and other people around me have noticed.<hr></blockquote>This is possible, but in time she will begin to see that the changes are permanent. My C told my W once that no one can change over night. I'm still trying to correct the damage that those words comming from my C's mouth caused. Only time and continued change and growth can fix this.I got to thinking last night, that mabey I needed to defend myself a tiny bit on the whole "eat their loved ones" thing. Check out this link:MASLOW'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS Would you believe I was a psychology major for a year? What I meant was that the need for food and shelter will soon out weigh the need for love in your W's A.Once again I manged to get my point accross in a bit of a backwards manner. I'm glad you all understood.Thanks
Rev

Rev,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> What I meant was that the need for food and shelter will soon out weigh the need for love in your W's A.
<hr></blockquote>Right now W and OM are living "on the house" W cooks, cleans and babysits for "room and board", Her friend is willingly giving the A "room to survive", Only if, and when W and OM get their "own place" can the affair die. I think while they are living "carefree" the A will continue.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:

In my opinion, I think W will end M even if she's not happy with OM, based on :
1) She feels guilty, because OM moved here from NY to be with her, if she/they break up, he will have nowhere to go, and she feels bad for that. 2) I think she is just looking for an excuse to leave me, because she thinks I can't change, even though I have, and other people around me have noticed.I could be wrong, and we all know I'm no expert at this, but it's how I feel, and what I think.
Imput on this? Am I thinking correctly?, or do I just see the downside to this?<hr></blockquote>
Just stay w/ your changes they are good changes and even looking more to improve it. I don't think W will end M if A dies unless ... you are preceived not ready by her. That is why plan B is the last resort. Only you are absolutly sure that your changes had been accepted and W still waffle. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Right now W and OM are living "on the house" W cooks, cleans and babysits for "room and board", Her friend is willingly giving the A "room to survive", Only if, and when W and OM get their "own place" can the affair die. I think while they are living "carefree" the A will continue<hr></blockquote>
Do you ever talk to her freind ? She might not be able to write off their support for A [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .Promise me if you get the job on Thursday, go and see Vanilla Ice or go to Hall of Fame. Get out of the house !!!. Too bad Browns's season ends early, no more dog pounds.

Redhat,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Just stay w/ your changes they are good changes and even looking more to improve it. I don't think W will end M if A dies unless ... you are preceived not ready by her. That is why plan B is the last resort. Only you are absolutly sure that your changes had been accepted and W still waffle. <hr></blockquote>I am going to continue to improve myself, I will not be the old me any longer, I can't go back to the "old me". But now, I think I F#$@ed myself, If plan B is after W accepts changes, (Which she hasn't) and I already gave her plan B letter, then I have pretty much dug the grave for my M, Right? I mean...there is no way to "reverse" plan B, so... What do I do? or is it too late?Is there still a chance to save this? or is it over by my hands?All I wanted was a happy marriage, thats all I ever wanted...now...it feels like the dream is gone... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] She can't see the changes, because she to "into" OM, and D is somewhere in her mind. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Do you ever talk to her freind ? <hr></blockquote>Yes, but she is trying to stay out of this, and won't say a thing to me about what they do, or even her opinion to this. She just tells me "it is not my(her) place to say anything". But she is "loyal" to my W, and therefor Won't say a word about any of this.I was thinking about things W has said to me throughout our R/M and I remember her saying once "no matter how hard you try to get rid of me, You are stuck with me forever"... Seems forever isn't as long as it should be...[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
There are many BS send plan B letter but retracted later. What you want to do is cool it for now, get the job and have some fun out side the house. She is bound to contact you for something and by then you decide if you want to keep the contact and keep plan A'ng or stick onto plan B.Meanwhile ... keep looking nice, concentrate on your job, you could plan A'ng her from far, as long the news of your changes comes to your WW, it is working. Having "fun" minus your WW but don't get carry away w/ new R.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> She is bound to contact you for something and by then you decide if you want to keep the contact and keep plan A'ng or stick onto plan B. <hr></blockquote>The only reason she would contact me now is : She changed her mind (Very unlikely), She has filed papers(Unlikely @ this point), Or to make sure I'm still living(A week or so, maybe two).I want to keep contact with her, but it seems like she has "better" things to do than talk to me. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Meanwhile ... keep looking nice, concentrate on your job, you could plan A'ng her from far, as long the news of your changes comes to your WW, it is working. <hr></blockquote>50 miles away and no mutual "friends" that see or talk to me. Kind of hard for her to notice changes. Isn't it? <blockquote>quote:<hr> Having "fun" minus your WW but don't get carry away w/ new R.
<hr></blockquote>Can you clarify this for me? When "fun" and R are in the same sentence, that could mean ALOT of things.(From my viewpoint)(Assuming R = Relationship)Current feeling: [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and blue, thinking about it could really be over, and I have tried so hard, but she can't see it...I ask myself why not? and there is no answer.

Torizo,
Yes, R as in relationship. Watch out for those. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Current feeling: [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and blue, thinking about it could really be over, and I have tried so hard, but she can't see it...I ask myself why not? and there is no answer.<hr></blockquote>
There is an answer to that ... in the fog. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] . Take it a an early spring break on your M ... now, you have to go out from the house. Cavalier is still in there ?.

Not even close to looking for / or wanting anything to do with a relationship, I only want my W back. I don't even think I could put myself in a position where there is a potential of meeting someone.(hence, going to movies.)Tomorrow, I will go and see vanilla sky, I'll tell you what I think about it. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Take it a an early spring break on your M ... now, you have to go out from the house. Cavalier is still in there ?. <hr></blockquote> Not a big sports fan I'm afraid. I like movies, pool sometimes, going out to eat, and the outdoors, hiking, camping ect. (Ironically my W has the exact interests and a couple others) yet she says we are "incompatable", I don't see how. (Basing this on she and I filled out RC Questionairre, and we like the same things.)Maybe I'm trying too hard??? Should I just live life like W is not there essentially? Hmmm.....[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Hi T,For now probably that would be best. Live your life as if she is not there because she is not. It reduces some of that pain. See anticipation can be painful. However if you plan for the worst then you are already ready for something better. Does this vensuain logic make sense? When I finally resolved to stop thinking too much about what OW and H were up to, I started to feel better. What helped me get there? Posting and reading here, working, being with my son, dealing with reality (bills, cleaning, etc.), checking out about divorce, separation, etc. Even started a home business but it got shot down at work (conflict of interest thingy, still a good idea though) hm..... oh well. Kept a journal and woke up to reality when I saw all that I was going through. Oh yea, can't forget about those George Clooney and Tom Cruise dreams!!! You guys might not understand that but in those dreams (nothing rated happened - LOL!! ) I learned that I could interact well with others and had the qualities to develop a good relationship if I wanted. It gave me some inner confidence that I was sorely lacking. Kinda like RH's BE experience but not as 'dangerous. After all it was just a dream.....The point to this ramble is to keep busy. That maid stuff will get old. Besides if the OM is not working, who is he pleasing that would pay his way? I mean if the 'friend' that is paying the WS for stuff must have a lot to hand out?!?!? I have a hard time getting my 1 kid what he wants much less a grown woman and a bum OM. JMHO,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Does this vensuain logic make sense? <hr></blockquote>Clear as mud. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> I mean if the 'friend' that is paying the WS for stuff must have a lot to hand out?!?!? <hr></blockquote>Which I don't understand myself, how they are living there and no $$$ problems. In the house where W and OM are staying, There is : Her friend F/30someting Friends BF/30Something 3 kids ages 2-12 My W and OM all in a 3 bedroom 1/2 house. So, unless W has been lying(which is a possibility)about OM having a job, I don't see how it's possible. But then again who am I to judge...I wonder if OM got his job @ the truck stop? He was supposed to find out on monday. After OM and W get $$$ saved, she said she wants to get a place with him, She told me this awhile ago. It must be nice that people can be so heartless, and so self-centered that they can just "leave" whomever they are with, married or otherwise, and just go off with, and do whatever with, whoever they choose. I could never in a million years do to anybody, what my W has done to me. I guess I was brought up better than that, I respect the person I'm with enough to try to fix things, where now I see the respect is not mutual.How do you trust someone, after this? I mean, if W came home, there would definately be a trust issue for a LONG time. And the more I think of the things she has said since this started, the less I believe we will ever work this out.I have accepted that she is never going to leave him, and have accepted that our M is over. It does not mean that I will stop fighting for it, But it does mean, a bit of peace for me. I can (regardless of what happens now) look back in 10 years and see I have tried my hardest to save something I believed in, even though it was a one sided belief.I think I have coined a "new" term, This is my day of acceptance.Thank you all, for getting me to this point, Life continues on...[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
The more I read it the more I think you should kick back and watch them eat each other.3 bedroom 1/2 bath for 4 adults and 3 kids (2-12) (two families) kind of crowded isn't it ?. How many month now ... hmmm 11/01 - 1/02 ... they are still in honeymoon, just about 6 weeks. I wonder what kind of freind let their soon to be teenage to see all of this ?. Where is sing when we need her, my Fairie LB.Truck stop job ?, I assume you are in data processing ... $$ will still be an issues even he got the job.Hey, A is like that ring, THE ONE RING THAT RULE THEM ALL [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Once you put it on, it will consume you all out. No one could help them out but them self to take the ring off. Yes, it is selfishness and let them consume their A too.How do you trust someone, after this? I mean, if W came home, there would definately be a trust issue for a LONG time. And the more I think of the things she has said since this started, the less I believe we will ever work this out.
Staying in love is intentional. When A dies and 4 rules are abide the feeling will be back. Yes, there is be a lot of work on the recovery but you do it together ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I am still waiting for Vanilla Sky's review [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I wonder what kind of freind let their soon to be teenage to see all of this ?. <hr></blockquote>Her friends kids, do whatever they want, (IMHO) They were raised poorly. and now they all (kids are learning from bad parental examples) sit around and get high, W used to do it occasionally for stomach problems (Doctors haven't been able to pinpoint problem) and I have no issue with it ( I do not get high, nor do I even smoke) But now I'm sure it's all they do, get high for fun(Adding to the fog "literally" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) <blockquote>quote:<hr> Truck stop job ?, I assume you are in data processing ... $$ will still be an issues even he got the job. <hr></blockquote>Yeah The truck stop pays 7.50-8.50 Hr. You can not make a living on that, I know for a fact, Unless she goes and gets a job, then they could. But that means W WOULD have to work, which she didn't have to around here.As for me, Last job was ATM Technician, And I have previous jobs in : Computers, sales, management, warehouse, auditing, & food processing. So My skills allow me to have a few positions readily available. The job I find out about on Thursday is Sales/Recruiting, I hope I get it for the $$$, but if not, there are other jobs I can take, less $$$ though.Money has never been an issue, When we met I was cashier @ a gas station, she was too, then over the course of the 3 years I was there I became Asst. manager, and ever since I have been looking for jobs that pay more and more, At the last job, I made enough that she could stay at home(Which is one of the factors contributing to A), and I look back and see, W has no "real" goals in life. I know where I want to go, I want a house(Nothing fancy), I like the car I have, maybe go back to school at some point and get a B.A. in computer science, have a family, and enjoy life. W said she liked those goals as well, but never did anything to try to achieve them. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Hey, A is like that ring, THE ONE RING THAT RULE THEM ALL . Once you put it on, it will consume you all out. No one could help them out but them self to take the ring off. Yes, it is selfishness and let them consume their A too.<hr></blockquote>Actually, the ring's power will start to consume you even if you don't put it on, Look at poor Gollum in LotR, it consumed him, and as far as I know gollum has never put it on. The ring has it's own will, it chooses someone, and forever changes them. Like for example Bilbo, later in the movie Frodo just show Bilbo the ring and instantly he Wants it.The ring indeed has many many similarities to A. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Staying in love is intentional. When A dies and 4 rules are abide the feeling will be back. Yes, there is be a lot of work on the recovery but you do it together ... <hr></blockquote>But it only works if BOTH parties are involved, and I can't see her involved. It makes me wonder if our R/M was a mistake. My fear is : (based on her history coming from an abusive relationship) I was the first "nice" guy to show her attention and love, and that is why we got together. What if it is exactly that reason she stayed with me? and now she has had her "fill" and is "moving on". That is my worst fear through all this. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I am still waiting for Vanilla Sky's review <hr></blockquote>Going @ 4:00pm my time(1:00pm Yours) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Not to get away from the Vanilla Sky review, but a thought/memory crossed my mind today, I was just sitting her letting my mind wander, and I thought of when me and my W first got married, we came home and about 2-3 months after we were married she accidentally knocked over one of our "wedding night" wine glasses, she was so overcome with sadness when it broke, You know the sentimental value, she literally fell into my arms and started crying about it, it took 20-30 minutes to stop her from crying. Well, It brought a tear to my eye today. God, I miss my wife at that time, so caring, so loving, I'm sorry I didn't listen to you...I'm sorry I wasn't "there" for you emotionally...I just want another chance...and you won't let me have it...I'm sorry guys, I get moments like that all the time, I have decided this to be my journal, as I have told everything already, my innermost thoughts and feelings. It's all here.Redhat,
My Vanilla Sky review :To sum it up : A Fantasy Gone Wrong...A bit strange, You have to REALLY pay attention to it all for it to make sense. It's kind of like the fog, strange, and full of surprises.The movie, describes/acts out, the basis for an A perfectly. Fantasy vs. Reality.Personally, I won't be standing in line to see it again. But I would recommend going to see it for yourself, as we all have different views about things.
BTW-Bought LoveBusters today, @ a used bookstore near me, only $5.98 not a bad deal. I am working on me more and more each day. No contact with W since Sunday, Not really expecting her to call anytime soon, and if she does, I don't even know what to say to her.Today's Mood : Peaceful.

Torizo,Thanks for the review, I will see it tommorow night and let my WW baby sit 2 D. I used to see 4-5 movies in the row when I was young. I will let you know what I think of it.
<blockquote>quote:<hr> .. on me more and more each day. No contact with W since Sunday, Not really expecting her to call anytime soon, and if she does, I don't even know what to say to her.<hr></blockquote>
You better think about it. Plan A or plan B !!!. Plan B will let her leave message and don't even pick up the phone. Unless is about financial or legal issues, never answer back.

Vanilla Sky? Sounds like a hard movie to see. I watched 'presumed innocent' a few nights ago. Ooohhh.... all Ws' should watch that one!!!! Redhat... you want to go see that movie? Too much stuff related to psyco vensuians!!! How about Spy Games? Sounds more fun! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] T,
Let me know what you think about that book. Take Care,
L.

Redhat,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> You better think about it. Plan A or plan B !!!. Plan B will let her leave message and don't even pick up the phone. Unless is about financial or legal issues, never answer back. <hr></blockquote>We have no financial issues, and no legal issues as of yet, as she can't file until Feb. 19th @ the earliest. So, We have nothing to talk about, unless it's her coming home, because her and OM "broke up". So, I guess she can talk to voice mail.Orchid,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> Let me know what you think about that book. <hr></blockquote>I'll be reading it today, I should finish it by tonight.
Nothing new to report at this time,how about you all?

Orchid,
I watched already Spy Game, like it and cry at the end of the movie ... [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] it is hard when you are in an emotional flux. I think I will like Vanilla Sky too.Torizo,
Nothing new about WW. She dropped by yesterday noon, droppped the laundry, needed to use computer to print out some material for the class and run out of paper (she printed two set and you know who the other set is for). I saw she is wearing the pearl w/ a dotted diamond earing ring that I gave her for Christmas but she is wearing a "Miriam" pendant. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] OM ! ,I never bought her one and she never tell me she bought one. Mowing both grass I presume. I have truhart's morning to all post on the bar, don't know if she read it. I gave her a kiss on the lip and thanked her for the laundry (I do it anyway w/o her but this is plan A) and left to get & fix my other car's side mirror. She agrees to take care of the kid on Feb 1-3, I will be in the men's Church retreat. I told her that I will change my telecomute day from Mon&Wed to Mon&Thru. My reasoning is that I do not want to count on her to help me on either Thursday. (it is not LB'ed, I just stated the fact and also it is FYI)
I call BIL on Monday. He is coming here possibly w/ FIL to visit on Feb. Both of them told me that if we Dv, she will be suffering. They are actually affraid that I am Dv her but they understand it. I told them they are always welcome but I do not expect help and I do not interfere w/ their family bussines.
I talk to attorney. When I explain the situation, he was dazzled by it and let him know if I get tired of WW's act and want to file Dv. I got the info I want. If I want sole child custody it will be a bloody war. I have some ground to stand on but I have to be mean. Her disapearing act, subpena OM & get my 2 D too (she tried to stop my D to call me on several occations, she missed some crucial dental & eyes appointment for my 2 D), BIL & FIL willing to testify on my behalf to get sole custody, they are absolutly against my WW to have them. Filing police report (see my post on WW's AWOL), is useless unless I am ready to go to war, her acts is just trying to push my hot botton. I have enough people to back up my words, specially my 2 D itself !!!!.I am really hanging in here. I have to replace one windows and looking at the leak on the roof (handyman), adding more activity for my 2 D (awana & cheerleader - single dad), and bringing the bacon home for her A ... she cominggles the groceries $$ with her pocket money for staying out there. When I am ready with plan B, I will really rock her up. I will plan C if this M is over. I want somebody that I love by my side on my 40' birthday this year, w/ or w/o her, and burried this memory.

Wow, I'm sorry for the pain, but it looks like you are dealing with it well. I'm glad that if it comes to it, you can get custody of children.Not much here, Still putting all efforts into finding a job, I called that company today, and Person, said the person I need to talk to is out with a client, and would call me back, that was four hours ago. I'll call him back in the morning if I don't hear from him today. Still hoping I get this one.other than that, Four days now, since talking to W, Guess she don't care what happens on planet earth.(Space aliens in the fog reference) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Oh well, it's her loss. I finished Lovebusters today, It was a bit "eye opening", The only LB I am guilty of(when we were together) was angry outbursts, but now I have learned HOW to control them. No way to show W though. Just like no way to meet wife's ENs. Hoping OM doesn't either.I have accepted the fact, that she more than likely will not be returning home, It hurts, but I have realized it's the truth, and have accepted it. However, if she does want to return home which I seriousely doubt at this point, then we will discuss it at that time. I am no longer worried about it or her right now. If I don't get my life "on track" then there is no reason to worry about hers.Curiosity Compels me to ask: what is Plan C?Mood : [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Plan C ... run and never look back. Plan B and w/o any contact forever ...I saw Vannilla Sky ... boy there are so much fogese talk !!!. I don't like it that much, too painfull to watch. I should go to action movies instead. I will try to quote some of their words.Any other movies you plan to watch ?. I want to rent Committed, someone on GQII recommend it ... I know I should stay away from it but I am curious.

Plan C. Run and never look back. Now that is a plan. lolAs for movies, Committed looks good, and I want to see Brotherhood of the wolf, looks really interesting.Job update: Talked to that company today, still interviewing, they will call me back next week(In short, I probably don't have it, Damn...).W update: 5 Days, no contact from her. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Guess the fog has her good.Bought a new book, How to write a love letter that works, was reading chapter titles, and it sounded interesting. one is titled : Let's try again, Debating on sending W a letter. Conflicting opinion in my mind,(Chance to help situation, but conflicts with MB principles).The letter I'm considering sending to her:Dearest Christi, I thought of calling. Got as far as picking up the phone and dialing the number. It rang once, but I got scared and hung up. Anyway, it was me.
I wasn’t really sure what to say. The breakup came so fast that, even though I’ve had a lot of time to think about it, I’m not really sure what happened. We’ve had other arguments before and gotten over them. But not this time. One moment together, the next apart. Nothing. All over.
Yet when I look back on the time we spent together, things seemed so perfect. We were so happy. Remember how people used to see us walk down the street holding hands and would smile at us? Our happiness made them happy. I don’t understand how so much love could evaporate; how two people who were always telling each other how much they cared suddenly stopped caring.
I don’t think we have stopped. I know I haven’t. I miss you almost every moment, and when I don’t miss you it’s because I pretend you’re with me and I talk to you. That’s true. You know, every night when I get into bed I tell you about my whole day-just the way I used to when we’d call each other late at night.
Of course, now you’re not there to advise and guide me. And I can’t comfort you the way I used to when things went wrong. And going to sleep isn’t as tough as getting up. I used to bounce out of bed, looking forward to each day. I knew that sometime during the day we’d talk or see each other and, no matter what kind of day it had been, it would wind up a great day-a beautiful day. Now it seems to rain all the time. The whole climate of my life has changed.
I keep asking myself when the clouds started to roll in. When did the chilly winds begin to blow?
For my part, it must have been when I started taking us for granted. I figured you’d just always be there. I stopped working at “us”.
I have paid a severe price for my indifference. Loneliness is a disease and I am sick without you. Nor do I confuse lonely with being alone. There have been so many times since we parted when I have been surrounded by others and still felt lonely because you weren’t there.
Losing you was like experiencing a death, and experiences like that change oneself. Words like “communication” and “commitment” words that were important to you are now equally important to me.
I want you to know that all the dreams we had I still dream. All the plans we made, I still want to make come true. Those dreams, those plans-they belong to us and no one else in the entire world. They were part of who we were and who I want us to be once more.
I’d like us to try again, not just to recapture what we had; rather, to build upon it.
I still believe in you. I still believe in us.
In a few days, I am going to try to gather enough courage to call again. This time I’ll let the phone ring until you answer it, because this time I know what I’ll say when you do:
I still love you. Sincerely,What do you all think, Should I send it, Or not?
I ask because my heart says send it, however my brain lies with the MB principles.Did laundry today, shopping, lots of running around, still job hunting. Going to a friends house later, just to get out. Really, it's pretty uneventful. How about your day?[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
I try to hold your horses (rev's terminology from the farm) but you go ahead and send plan B letter. Now you are waffling yourself. Let it go for now ! And go to see the Brotherhoods of wolf. Let it be there for few more days, hang in there. Write your love letter evryday if you have to but don't send it yet.

Well, You can comment on the letter if you want, but it is NEVER going to be sent to her. I was on the web this afternoon, and came across OMs new web page, as well as his yahoo page. I know OM and my W are in a EA/PA, but this hurts now, on a really deep level.Here are the links, tell me what you have to say about this :The first one, Christie is about my W.First one OM, and my W. Second one OM.The Yahoo profile of OM.Based on these pics, should I file? I want to now, especially after seeing these. I feel there is nothing left to save. Please help...[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,Don't do web shopping if you can't handel it, I do window shopping once in a while and it get me too. You are in plan B, you are supposed not to have no contact at all !!!, no chance of EN(s) or LB(s). As my youngest D says, "you know where she goes, dady. Why do you want to pass by ?. When she is not with us it means she is over there". My little angel tried to protect me.Let her file !. Let her at least pay for it. You could use the money to go out.About OM, boy ... I don't think it is a M material and also how many womens he had before W and one of them still talking to him .... What an LB'ed. One more minuses on their A. Just hanging there and no contact also for you ... even cyber contact !!!.Every time you want to pick up the phone or making contact just think of this moment when you saw their picture ... it will stop you.You see T. When you want to love someone, you think of the good memory of w/ her over and counting your blessing. When you want to hate someone, you do the opposite and counting the missdeeds. With time it will imprinted.About your letter, I am waiting for Orchid to evaluate it ... she is a Venusian [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .Cheers up ... weekend is coming.[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ][ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

Thank you RH, It's just that, it hurts to think of her having fun, without me. We made a promise in our vows, to be together through good and bad, but as soon as "the bad" happened, she left, and found comfort in somone else's arms. I am a man of honor and integrity, and it hurts to know a human can be this heartless and cruel to another human. How has our species survived this long?
<blockquote>quote:<hr> You are in plan B, you are supposed not to have no contact at all !!!, no chance of EN(s) or LB(s). <hr></blockquote>and thus, there is no contact, and after those pics, I have no desire to make contact. It pushes me harder to attain MY goals, get MY life together. and enjoy MY life without her (as hard as that is). <blockquote>quote:<hr> As my youngest D says, "you know where she goes, dady. Why do you want to pass by ?. When she is not with us it means she is over there". My little angel tried to protect me. <hr></blockquote>I never looked at it that way... <blockquote>quote:<hr> Let her file !. Let her at least pay for it. You could use the money to go out. <hr></blockquote>Fine, she can file, she can pay for it too, but how? She has no job, and I'm sure it's not on their "Priority" list right now, not until he decides he wants M from her. I see it happening. So in that light, D could be a LONG way off. <blockquote>quote:<hr> About OM, boy ... I don't think it is a M material and also how many womens he was before and one of them still talking to him .... <hr></blockquote>and besides that, why would anyone want to build a new relationship with someone who "broke up" a marriage? (Granted we had our problems before this, but he is "the straw that broke the camel's back") <blockquote>quote:<hr> You see T. When you want to love someone, you think of the good memory of w/ her over and counting your blessing. When you want to hate someone, you do the opposite and counting the missdeeds. With time it will imprinted.<hr></blockquote>So, just stay focused on before A is what you are saying? (Hard for me to do,because the wound of A still hasn't healed, but it's getting better) I still can't get it out of my head that for the past two years SHE was worried that I would be the one to have an A, that it would be ME to "break up" our M. I now see, THAT was a warning sign, and I was to Ignorant to see it. (Someone hit me with a 2x4) <blockquote>quote:<hr> Cheers up ... weekend is coming.<hr></blockquote>A break from the job hunt, maybe I'll go meet someone nice this weekend.lol. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Just kidding, I can't say I'm not totally vulnerable right now, and that is why I stay away from places like bars and clubs, I don't want to "cheat" on my W, even though there is no reason not to at this point. (However, I have more pride than that, and I am loyal to W until those papers are final) I have tried to be the "best man" I can be, even through all of this.( oh if only my mother were alive, she would be proud of me.)That is where the situation lies currently. <blockquote>quote:<hr> About your letter, I am waiting for Orchid to evaluate it ... she is a Venusian . <hr></blockquote>I think she'll like it, but now I can't send it for 2 reasons. Plan B, and no desire to send it now.The LB$ is "in the red", and I am no longer "sure" about taking her back. Before I was positive I would take her back, but as time drags on, I'm less and less Positive. I have accepted life w/o Her. And am unsure what I would do if she said she wanted to come home now.No matter, I'm going to try to have a "good" weekend. Maybe a walk in the park on Saturday, hmmm..... (Weather permitting)[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
<blockquote>quote:<hr>I am a man of honor and integrity, and it hurts to know a human can be this heartless and cruel to another human. How has our species survived this long?<hr></blockquote>
You are a good man, you will find your fullfilling M w/ or w/o WW !. Also our species starts like that, eats our own then we become civilized. We are social animals. <blockquote>quote:<hr>The LB$ is "in the red", and I am no longer "sure" about taking her back. Before I was positive I would take her back, but as time drags on, I'm less and less Positive. I have accepted life w/o Her. And am unsure what I would do if she said she wanted to come home now.<hr></blockquote>
This is exactly what plan B is about, prepared you to move on if all else fails. <blockquote>quote:<hr>No matter, I'm going to try to have a "good" weekend. Maybe a walk in the park on Saturday, hmmm..... (Weather permitting)<hr></blockquote>
Have you been in the Rock'n roll hall of fame ?. One of this day I will visit Cleveland again, probably on alumni days. But I might not if I am on plan C ... to much memories, strolling around the park at the end of the highway going to Lakewood.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> You are a good man, you will find your fullfilling M w/ or w/o WW !. <hr></blockquote>You are a truly kind person Rh, I only wish W would see in me what you all have. <blockquote>quote:<hr> This is exactly what plan B is about, prepared you to move on if all else fails. <hr></blockquote>So then as far as Plan B, I did it "right"? <blockquote>quote:<hr> Have you been in the Rock'n roll hall of fame ?. <hr></blockquote>Ya know, as long as it's been here, I have yet to go to it. (Been to the science center about 4 times though. IMAX movies ROCK. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) <blockquote>quote:<hr> One of this day I will visit Cleveland again, probably on alumni days. <hr></blockquote>If you do, let me know, I'd like to meet you and put a face with the typing.lol. <blockquote>quote:<hr> strolling around the park at the end of the highway going to Lakewood. <hr></blockquote>Been there, and let's not forget Edgewater Park.I have my memories too, some still are haunting even now. Like when we first moved to where we are, She was so thrilled to get this place, we spen the first 2 weeks painting and cleaning, we had fun, even though it was HOT those 2 weeks. I must have lost 10 pounds from sweating.But now, the walls are empty, all of our wedding photos she has, I miss her, her touch, smell, her voice, and our embraces. There are no items left that are of "us", she has it all. And thats another thing, when I took all of "our" stuff to her, I told her here is everthing, you can keep whatever you want, or you can throw it away. She was shocked, she said, of course I'll keep it, you were a part of my life for four years.Now the question, She wants to be with OM, she doesn't want me in her life, and yet she holds on to everything that is "us" Picture, cards ect. If she wants to start a "new" life with OM then why hold on to the "past"? I mean, why hold on to it, when there is no "reason" to?That perplexes me. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Give your absolute best such that you could look back 10 years from now w/ no regret.
<hr></blockquote>I know I have given it my best, and if the papers were served tomorrow, There would be no regrets.

Torizo,
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
Now the question, She wants to be with OM, she doesn't want me in her life, and yet she holds on to everything that is "us" Picture, cards ect. If she wants to start a "new" life with OM then why hold on to the "past"? I mean, why hold on to it, when there is no "reason" to?<hr></blockquote>
She might underestimated you and think that she has you wrap under her finger. She is probably a Venusian lady.Now go to R&R hall of fame .... thank for the name, yes, Edgewater Park during fall time, the air, the leaves ... argh, I used to bring her there to practice her flute, I just watch her practice and admire her beauty.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> She might underestimated you and think that she has you wrap under her finger. She is probably a Venusian lady. <hr></blockquote>Maybe, Do you,(in your opinion) Think she will come back(based on these now 16 pages of posts)? <blockquote>quote:<hr> thank for the name, yes, Edgewater Park during fall time, the air, the leaves ... argh, I used to bring her there to practice her flute, I just watch her practice and admire her beauty. <hr></blockquote>Wow, I used to do the same, but no flute involved. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Now go to R&R hall of fame .... <hr></blockquote>Either saturday night or sunday.

Too early to tell, the jury still out there. But by the fact of $$$, living in freind house and OM still in contact w/ his ex, let it burned a few more candlelight. How her families taking all of this ? do they know ? do they care ?.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Too early to tell, the jury still out there. But by the fact of $$$, living in freind house and OM still in contact w/ his ex, let it burned a few more candlelight. <hr></blockquote>Hmmm... I would like to know, But back to the issue of time. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> How her families taking all of this ? do they know ? do they care ?.<hr></blockquote>Her family doesn't understand why she is doing this, they've even said, I'm the best thing that has happened to her. They think it's a mistake on her part, and she has got to learn her "lesson", even though she probably won't. Her mom wants her ring back if W is serious, still have yet to hear about that though. I don't know if Mil got ahold of W or not. I'll call Mil tomorrow and find out.Ah, memories..... only a short year ago, we were married, Oct. 28 2000. seems so long ago now.Oh well, on my way out to a friend's house. I'll be back sometime later.

W Update: Ok, talked to MIL, She said she talked to W yesterday, about the ring, and W said she doesn't have the money to send ring back to MIL. And MIL, asked what if you two get back together, and W said well, we can just buy a band or something down the road. MIL also asked W what she is doing, and W said I don't know what to do, I'm confused. (Which is better than I know I don't want M, isn't it?) So, let's recap,
13 days ago W said, I want to come home but dont know what to do with OM.
05 days ago W said, I don't want to lead you on, I don't want M anymore.(But W cant afford to file papers)
01 Day ago, W told MIL she was confused, and didn't know what to do.Waffling? yes.
Fog? Definately
Alien Abduction Victim? Absolutely.Logic? None that can be seen.So what does this tell you all? Comments appreciated. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi T,Me and my 2 cents here!! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
So, let's recap,
13 days ago W said, I want to come home but dont know what to do with OM.
<hr></blockquote>Logical response: Go to the garbage and dump OM! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:

05 days ago W said, I don't want to lead you on, I don't want M anymore.(But W cant afford to file papers)<hr></blockquote>Logical response: Then don't! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:

01 Day ago, W told MIL she was confused, and didn't know what to do. <hr></blockquote>Logical response: Then let T, help you. Nothing worse than someone doing something major and not know what they are doing. Would you have a surgeon operate on you if he said that? How about a dentist or lawyer? Hm.....
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:

Waffling? yes.
Fog? Definately
Alien Abduction Victim? Absolutely.Logic? None that can be seen.So what does this tell you all? Comments appreciated. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>Well you are certainly right on your assessment. Now you have to make sure you are not caught up in that mode. React with clarity and thought. L.

Well O, now that I know she's confused, it leaves some room to work with. But, I'm in ME mode, I need to get me in shape, eg.job, $$$, so forth, Then I can worry about her. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Logical response: Then let T, help you. Nothing worse than someone doing something major and not know what they are doing. Would you have a surgeon operate on you if he said that? How about a dentist or lawyer? Hm..... <hr></blockquote>I would LOVE to help her, but she either doesn't "want" help, or still thinks I haven't changed.Doctor, why are you preparing a chainsaw, I thought this procedure is "routine"? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It feels hopeless at this point, though the logical half of me says it's not totally hopeless. there is still a very tiny ray of hope, that hope is: shes a very emotional pperson, and I can only hope her mind wanders like mine does, she thinks of a "special" moment between us, and who know, maybe she'll even call. Though I know not what I would say...The fog is closing in on her, and that same fog may be hope. for as long as there is fog, rational thought can't be used, and it buys me time, time to make me "better".I was going through Tax stuff(Got my w2s) considering, after getting "return" asking W if she really wants D, Also considering Paying for D with "return".(No, I don't mind paying, but I will not be the one to file, she can meet me and I'll go with her to start the D process) At least that way I KNOW $$$ went for something "useful" as opposed to just giving W $$$ and her "blowing it" on something stupid. I know I shouldn't pay, but if it what she wants, and it makes her "happy", then I support that decision. I have learned to be the source of my own happiness now, and meet my own needs, No one can take that away from me. And apparently her needs are being met by OM just "fine", as she hasn't called me, and is therefore NOT concerned with me one bit.Thoughts on all of this?First Contact from W in 7 days : myfuzzykity (Sun 01/13/02 01:22:06 PM): i just wanted to say hello...and see how you are doing....[Sent Via Yahoo messenger.] Should I reply? Or is that violating Plan B?[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

The weekends are lonely on the boards...

The weekends are also the hardest for many BS ... I packed my days with activities of my 2 D. Now I have to go to sunday night church, catch you later tonight.

Have fun, When you get back, please read my latest news above. I could use some advice, Thanks.Catch you later.Job Update: Tomorrow I go and put in app for Corrections Officer, and later this week a Police Office in a neighboring city. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'll take either job right now, both good hours and $$$.I'll post results of either when I find out.[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

About Tax return ... 50% is yours and keep it for going out or to extend your financial means while looking for job.This is what I mean with decision. You know if you are in plan B, no contact !!!!, unless you want to eat your crow and contacting her, going back to plan A. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . IMHO, you are too soon to go to plan B.Two comment on the contact ... first, how do you know it is her not OM since it was sent via yahoo messager. second, if you want "the contact", do not do it via messager for "the first" contact, wait a bt longer for her to call you. Be ready what to ask and talk about, no LB.Warning, do not read anything into this, she might be venusian. I have you in my palm and I make sure that no one is going to take it from me, just in case I need you. Go and read INDY_357's post in GQII, IMHO, WW is a real venusian.[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>About Tax return ... 50% is yours and keep it for going out or to extend your financial means while looking for job. <hr></blockquote>And the sad part is I made 9/10 of the income. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Two comment on the contact ... first, how do you know it is her not OM since it was sent via yahoo messager. second, if you want "the contact", do not do it via messager for "the first" contact, wait a bt longer for her to call you. Be ready what to ask and talk about, no LB.
<hr></blockquote>First, there is no way to know...I was going to wait for her to call, IM is so "unemotional". Besides, she knows she can call me if she wants. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Warning, do not read anything into this, she might be venusian. I have you in my palm and I make sure that no one is going to take it from me, just in case I need you. Go and read INDY_357's post in GQII, IMHO, WW is a real venusian.<hr></blockquote>That is a fear of mine as well, and a major contributing factor to me not calling her, as well as plan B. I want to show to her, I DO NOT NEED her to go on with life. (If she comes back, all that much better, but it is not a NEED.)I only want to find out what she REALLY wants, but am unable to do that while she is in the fog.Wish me luck on jobs, and I'll see everyone later. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
I only want to find out what she REALLY wants, but am unable to do that while she is in the fog.Wish me luck on jobs, and I'll see everyone later. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>You will never know, WS itself doesn't know otherwise they go through Dv straight out. With no lawyer involve then it is do able, only the cost of filing.Give us update on your job interview. I am praying for you right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> You will never know, WS itself doesn't know otherwise they go through Dv straight out. With no lawyer involve then it is do able, only the cost of filing. <hr></blockquote>Sometimes your writing is a little cryptic [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Can you explain?From what I "get", If WS knew what they wanted, Dv would happen Immediately? But she has the restriction of 90 days due to leaving county. less than 5 weeks remain before she CAN file. The real question is, will she if She has the $$$? (E.g. Tax return $$$)C.O. Job = Picked up App. P.O. Job = Going to on Wed. to fill out App. Tomorrow, security job at local marina = Fill out app.Thank you for your prayers, I need them right now.

Torizo,
Yes, if WS is not "confused" they will do it. At least the process of either filing separation or Dv. In your case is a bit tough, we will never know until 5 more weeks and the $ is not relevant, the cost is only filing since she assumed that you are not contesting her (no need for lawyer).Hang in there, she will call you. Not even one week after plan B letter (01/07-01/13), she tried contacting you already.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Yes, if WS is not "confused" they will do it. <hr></blockquote>The Question is, is she confused, or is it guilt getting in the way? <blockquote>quote:<hr> At least the process of either filing separation or Dv. <hr></blockquote> If she files it will be Dv, I don't think she would just stop at Sep. <blockquote>quote:<hr> we will never know until 5 more weeks and the $ is not relevant, the cost is only filing since she assumed that you are not contesting her (no need for lawyer). <hr></blockquote>5 more long weeks... Filing in her county is $158.00 (She doesn't have it.) No lawyer, I will not contest it, if it's what she wants, and it makes her "happy", the I'll do it. (I promised to make her happy, from the first day we met, whatever it takes, and I still hold myself to that promise, even though the outcome looks bleak). <blockquote>quote:<hr> Hang in there, she will call you. Not even one week after plan B letter (01/07-01/13), she tried contacting you already.<hr></blockquote>Eventually I know she will,(She is extremely emotional)which is good (Helps me) and bad (Helps A) and I think it's the reason she's "confused". She got her self stuck in a catch 22 situation, Love me Love him, Don't want to hurt H don't want to hurt OM. It is a vicious circle. and she is the only one who can stop it. (And that brings us right back to the beginning with her being "confused") [That is OUR current problem now]I KNOW I want to work on our M, But she doesn't KNOW what she wants, so I have been forced to do things for myself, and kind of put fixing M on the "back burner", but in doing that I also fear W and OM wil become "closer" instead of her being "pushed" towards me. And unfortunately, there is no way to guarantee her return. I wish there was something I could say or do to let/make her "see" the "changes" in me.Ok, now I'm rambling. I'm sorry.If (big if right now) she calls, what should I say?[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Redhat, Orchid, all of you, Thank you so much. Thank you for the support.My W called, Asked how I was, asked about jobs ect. and we talked for a few. She asked about our bankruptcy, and what were going to do with it. I plainly and clamly explained to her if We DV she could no longer be on it, and she would have to file her own Bankruptcy, she said " she didn't want that" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] and It took a minute for that to register in my brain, so I also explained to her I would pay for Dv but I would not file, nor would I try and stop her from filing. (and then it hit me) I asked if she was happy there (Obvious OM was nearby) and she said "NO". (I'm sorry she's not happy) [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] She said she would call again in a few days. I told her I love her, and we said goodbye.And if that's not enough... My day gets stranger and stranger. I was reading a poste earlier, from whothehellisshe in GqII, and a reply I sent to Who was : <blockquote>quote:<hr> That is truly inspiring. It brought a tear to my eye reading it. Maybe that is what I need to do in my situation. My only problem, up til my Ws affair, I have not been to church in many years, I have never prayed, though I do believe in a higher power than myself. Now, I pray on a almost daily basis. It just seems like the prayers go unanswered, (Maybe I need to be smacked in the head with a 2x4 or something) I just can't see it.Your post, along with the great amounts of help here @ MBs, keeps me going and praying.Thank you and God Bless.<hr></blockquote>And then I was surfing the web and ran across a online "Church" if you will, and they take "prayer Requests". So I wrote : <blockquote>quote:<hr>Please help me pray for my wife. She has been living with her lover now for 7 long weeks, I pray to God, that he may show her the sin she is committing, and for help in returning her to our state of marriage. I do want to work on it, and believe it can be saved. But not while she is living with her lover, she needs to be in our home so we CAN work it out.

in 5 weeks, she will be able to file for Divorce, (She moved out of county and has to wait) though she is not sure if that is what she wants.

I only want to honor our wedding vows, and it says for better or for worse, he have had better, and there is still worse than this. I love her and I cherish her, I want our marriage to work, but I need her with me and willing to work on it.

And only by the grace of God is that possible.

Thank you for listening, and thank you for your time.

God Bless...<hr></blockquote>My Reply from the Rev. was : <blockquote>quote:<hr> My prayers are with your wife and you. May the Lord touch her heart and show her the mistake that she is making and bring her back into this marriage that the Lord has put together and bring it together centered on Him. May He give you strength and guidience during this time and God bless you both!

All in Jesus name,
Crystle <hr></blockquote>And at the time, I finished replying to the reply, the phone rang and it was my W.There is a God, and I got my 2x4 in the head. I have seen the light, and with time anything is possible.(Time and God) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (though looking back at my post, A month ago I would have never thought it)You all are wonderful people, I thank you from my very soul.Any Comments on this? (I don't know what else to say...)P.s. I asked W to do me a favor, and take a look at MB, specifically the Boards, She said to send her a link. I don't know if she'll read, but she might.(I hope) [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Back to plan A. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img][ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:

If (big if right now) she calls, what should I say?
<hr></blockquote>
Hey, decide if you want to be in plan A or sick to plan B. Plan A'ng will be just follow the converstation and do not clingy, just normal. Plan B will not allow you to pick up the phone, let VM picks it up.

The login thing is driving me CRAZY!!!!!Anyways Redhat, I guess its back to plan A. On account of I spoke to W today.BTW - Did you read the really long post above? Just curious what you think.This time I'm gonna plan A my @$$ off. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm going to get it "right" yet.lol.
(I gave up on plan A too early, I should have more faith in myself and W, then to just "give up")Right???[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
BTW - Did you read the really long post above? Just curious what you think.I read it an I will reply later tonight, I have to go to skating rink for my 2 D practice.I am gald that you decide to plan A'ng. Give it time and buckle up for the 'coaster ride and this time let her pull the break. ok ?. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Catch you later.

Seatbelt - check
Holding on - check
Praying to God - checkOk let's go...Have fun with 2ds, See ya later.Grasping Plan A Firmly now. Holding on tight.

Hi T,You have been busy, I see. Now you have to be MB smart. Ok? 1. Don't enable.....the I'll pay for the D thing?
Bad Bad Bad. Stop volunteering your hard
earned money. 2. Now you know she is not real happy. Ok, work
with that. Show her that you can let her be
happy with you (not make her happy). Remember
the WS is a bit sensitive right now.

Waffle time happens at this stage quite
easily. Don't get your hopes up too high. Take
it slow. 3. Keep working on you and your options. Let her
come to you. Don't show your over
anxiousness. For some insane reason, the WS
don't appreciate it. You have been given your assignment..... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Take Care,
L.

Hiya O, <blockquote>quote:<hr> Now you have to be MB smart. Ok?
<hr></blockquote>Thats why I'm here and have bought countless books isn't it? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> Don't enable.....the I'll pay for the D thing?
Bad Bad Bad. Stop volunteering your hard
earned money.
<hr></blockquote>I'll stop offering, only reason I was offering now, Tax return time. Not hard earned $$$, money back from Gov. lol. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Now you know she is not real happy. Ok, work
with that. Show her that you can let her be
happy with you (not make her happy). Remember
the WS is a bit sensitive right now. <hr></blockquote>How can I show her that? over the phone is kind of hard. But I will try. I do know to follow MB Teachings, no LBs. Any other advice? (so I'm not "pushing" her. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Waffle time happens at this stage quite
easily. Don't get your hopes up too high. Take
it slow. <hr></blockquote>No hopes at this time, still to soon. Just "better" news right now, at least she acknowledges I'm alive now. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] and she IS speaking to me, as well as telling me how she feels. (Very big steps on her part). One day at a time. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Keep working on you and your options. Let her
come to you. Don't show your over
anxiousness. For some insane reason, the WS
don't appreciate it. <hr></blockquote>Still about me... Need a job right this moment, Thats the first priority. She will have to come to me, as I will not call her, nor will I drive down to where she is unless she asks.I just don't want to "push" her, Casual conversation when she calls.(Not very long calls, OM is still "up her @$$ when she gets on phone with me). Afraid of losing her? Over protective? Jealous? I don't know. All I know is she said she wasn't happy there, and don't know what to do. <blockquote>quote:<hr> You have been given your assignment..... <hr></blockquote>I feel like James Bond now. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I am back ... I read your long post and we are probably post at the same time ... I did not see your posting when I set up my reply. Another timely moment ?. I do not know but God has a very strange way. Take it one day at the time. Time is on your side actually. OM is afraid of loosing WS, another LB isn't it. You just sit back and see them scrambling. Get busy w/ your job search, take a break from her. Hope there is a news from your interview.
BTW, is one of your wife EN's financial ?, just curious since it might be a pluses to get a steady job and better income. I wonder how she is getting by w/o job and for how long.

Hi Redhat, <blockquote>quote:<hr> I do not know but God has a very strange way. <hr></blockquote>Strange as it may be, it all works out in the end, even if we don't see "the big picture" right away. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Take it one day at the time. <hr></blockquote>That is all anyone can do. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Time is on your side actually. OM is afraid of loosing WS, another LB isn't it. You just sit back and see them scrambling. <hr></blockquote>Definate LB. <blockquote>quote:<hr> BTW, is one of your wife EN's financial ?, just curious since it might be a pluses to get a steady job and better income. <hr></blockquote>According to her ENQ, Financial was I think 5 or 6 on the list. Regardless, I am trying to make more $$$ than last job, even if it's not one of her ENs. (Although I can't see how it wouldn't be an EN of hers, in the past year she worked 4 months, as I made enough to pay our bills so she didn't have to work much. If nothing else, a good paying job meets my EN of Financial. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> I wonder how she is getting by w/o job and for how long. <hr></blockquote>Only she can answer that. ( I can only say, she is "getting by" on minimal $$$ right now.) From what I can assume.But this is definately a positive thing, at least she told me how she feels, which is more than she has said in the past.One day at a time. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

No new info on W, Currently drafting an Idea for "conditions" to W coming home(if indeed she intends to). Basing it on MB Maritial agreement and four rules, anything else I can "throw in" ?Job Update: Interview today @ 3:00pm Hope it goes well.wish me luck. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] How is everyone else doing?

Torizo,
My 2D start resenting my WW, WW LB'ed big time. I am just collecting info. and not interfering. I need it for child custody battle down the road. FIL&BIL start to worry that I will "give up", they will come on mid Feb. I put the property on sale, I am tired being handyman and later 50% of it goes to WW that she will blow it off w/ OM. I will move out of town, cross the bay or further south, w/ or w/o my WW. I have a time frame in mind that I would like to resolve this and end this pain before end of the year. It is not my loss, it is my 2 D and WW's.Good luck on your job interview, I pray for you so that at least you will solve one important issue out of the way.Catch you later.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> My 2D start resenting my WW, WW LB'ed big time. I am just collecting info. and not interfering. I need it for child custody battle down the road. <hr></blockquote>Sorry to hear this. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> put the property on sale, I am tired being handyman and later 50% of it goes to WW that she will blow it off w/ OM. <hr></blockquote>I hope you at least get a good price,I know how it is to sell things, and move on. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I will move out of town, cross the bay or further south, w/ or w/o my WW. <hr></blockquote>I don't really know what to say, except may God be with you and help you through this. <blockquote>quote:<hr> It is not my loss, it is my 2 D and WW's. <hr></blockquote>True, it will be Ws loss, I am sad that it also hurts your 2 D, as it is such a shame that they have to go through this. But at least they have a good Father. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> Good luck on your job interview, I pray for you so that at least you will solve one important issue out of the way. <hr></blockquote>I went to interview, essentiall the position is Asst. Mgr. of a cleaning company. I will find out by Tuesday at the latest if I have it or not.I REALLY hope I get it.I am sorry that you and 2 D have to endure the pain that has been "thrown" upon you, You are a good man, and deserve better. Someone once said, "it will get better in time", I do believe that. I wish you luck in whatever happens with you. God bless.

W update: I talked to W today(just got off phone with her) I asked her how she was ect. ect. She said ok, she was doing dishes. and she started crying, I asked her if she was ok, she said she missed me (in a whisper). I told her I miss her too. I told her about my recent interview, and asked her what was "new"? Apparently they moved OM's "stuff" here from NY last week. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] and I asked W if OM found a job yet, she said no, he's out looking right now. and she said she has been thinking of coming home for two weeks now, but she doesn't know what to do about OM. I told her either he can stay at your friends house, or he can get a U-haul and go back to NY, I don't care which personally. Anyways, W told me she still loves me, and has never stopped loving me, she just got "lost" and cant find her "way" back home, which brings me to my next point, Her friend (the one who's house W and OM are at) thinks my W just feels "guilty" and thats why she wants to come home, in her words, "he(me) didn't make you(W) happy when you were there, what makes you think he(me) will make you happy now?" W said she thinks she would be happy just to be home again. and then OM came home, (controlling? jealous?) and W had to go, I told her I love her, and she said I know, me too(whispered). she said she would try to call me back later.So in short, she knows she loves me, she knows she wants to come home, she knows she wants to make M work, but she feels "trapped" by OM. (My POV anyways) Thoughts?At least I know I'm still loved.....I'm half tempted to just go and pick up W and smack OM with a 2x4, and say "she's coming with me". (A fantasy I know, But just to see the look on his face).What do you all make of this?[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

*[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I think she is with some wacko people who are also in the fog. Or maybe see her as a good thing they don't want to lose. I mean really clean up lady for free? So as long as they can keep her there for cheap why not take pock shots at your character? More fogese. <hr></blockquote> The fog, oh the fog.... Thats right, cheap help (must keep her here in the mothership as long as possible, even if she is not happy). <blockquote>quote:<hr> Maybe those friends can have the OM do your W's work. Maybe they will keep him as their live in maid and he won't have to find a job. Then your W won't feel guilty and she can come home. <hr></blockquote>LOL, Thats great and all, But I want OM to go back from whence he came. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> Ahhhh but it is not as simple as all that ya know!. <hr></blockquote>It is NEVER simple, at least not on this side of the fence. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] 
It does make me sad to think, W is unhappy, (even after the pain she caused me. It all makes sense now. sort of.) It is a test, and I will pass this test. Through God's help, and sheer human resolve, I will make it. I have gone too far(in my mind) to give up now. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ok, so now what? (yes I'm impatient [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

T,It sounds like the fog is lifting and she does want to come home. If I where you, and my wife said to me that she missed me and wanted to come home, I would tell her "I'll be right over!" If she says no, she can't... I would tell her that all she has to do is watch for your car, and jump in when you drive up, don't worry about the OM, her belongings, none of that matters, what matters is that she is home safe with you.
This will show her that you are her knight in shining armor ready and willing to rescue her.
It couldn't hurt, you arn't LB'ing and you never know, she might just be waiting for you to do this. Don't be afraid, she belongs with you.(just my honest opinion)SH

SH, not a half bad idea. I just called her, shes talking to friend of OM in NY, she said she'd call me back (her voice was urgent) Didn't want to LB so I said ok.[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: stillhurts ]

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

BTW-W decided to go with me tomorrow morning to get taxes done @ 10:00am Only source of $$$ right this moment(I need cash too for bills and such), And I mentioned something to her about, "besides, it gives you a chance to spend a day with me," and she said exactly,(Yes !!!! she did NOT object, she WANTS to spend time with me. First time we are going to spend time together since Dec. 8) This is good??? or am I reading this the wrong way???[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: stillhurts ]

SH, <blockquote>quote:<hr> When you are together look deep into her eyes and speak softly to her encouraging her and reassureing her that it is safe to come home now and that is where she belongs. <hr></blockquote>I have been trying to reassure her of that, it is only now beginning to work.I can only try and make our day "good" tomorrow, and no LBs. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Hopefully her LB$ is open to me an I can put a couple deposits in.(That would be great)Should I take some MB things for her to read, POJA, four rules, ect. or should I hold off til she comes home?[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

T, You know what? It is so obvious that you have done your homework on MB's that you are going to do just fine tomarrow. You are not going to lb, you are going to make lb$ every chance you get. You are going to make OM look like a shmuck. Stand tall, be yourself and of course, be lookin real good. Keep talkin to God. Ask Him for all the help that you are going to need. Now is not the time to give her MB literature, she is still a baby, just feed her milk, if you give her meat now she will choke on it, there is plenty of time for that. You my friend are going to do just fine! Prayers for you..SH

SH,Thank you for the encouragement. I just want our day together to be good and let her see the changes in me.I will update sometime later on how our day went.
Until then, Wish me luck, and God bless.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Hi.......I just found out a month ago husband had a affair........We've been married for over 33 years....and were seperated because I needed more attention and affection from him.....So finding this out was even more hurtful if possible........Having a hard time dealing with.....He is back home.....but I cant get the images out of my mind of him and her .......Makes me sick to my stomach... One minute..crying.....then angry ..then dont want him out of my sight....Want him to hold me continually.....Feel like Im losing my mind.........It hurts so badly....Really need help here....Trying really hard to forget .....but thoughts wont stop coming......Need someone that's been here to say what helped them through.......Thank you.......Linda

Hi linda,First I'd like to say welcome to MB, You have come to the right place, there are lots of people here who have come from both sides of the "fence". They are all good people, and are here to help. First I suggest, starting up a post under the just found out catagory, and explain your situation to everyone. Then I might suggest reading the books His need, Her needs and Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley, they will help you out, If you have read them, then read, post, read, vent, and read some more.I do understand how you feel right now though, I have been there, and it is hard, but you will make it through this. I would suggest what I have mentioned above. as well as post your situation, the more "veteran Members can help out more than I can.I'm sorry I could not be of more help.Good luck and God Bless.

Linda S, I am going to answer you post with this link hang in there.Torizo, I will check you up later. I will have to go home from work.[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

Redhat,
NP [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Torizo,
Close that smile for a while ... that water melon smile .... I have to go to bring my 2 D to dinner minus WW. I just lurk to see Linda S. I will be back tonite, warming up my keyboard.

Redhat, I'm sorry W is not with you @ dinner, I do however hope 2D enjoy it with you.My heart and prayers go out to you all.

Thanks Torizo,My emergency is dealing w/ my WW about the offer on the apt, she is confused like a deer. I could just imagine OM druming her all night and this morning I throw a curve ball on her. She needs time to think about declining the offer ... I let her and no pressure. I know she wasn't expecting my proposal on the table. Then an hour later, I got email from my FIL, it broke my heart and I have to close my office door and grep my tissue box. My BIL type/translate it for my FIL and I could picture them also weeping since the letter wasn't in conherent at all. Just if these keyboard could talk to my WW !!! They don't deserve the treatment. My FIL's sos. sec. check was send to my WW join account w/ FIL and she didn't wire it to him for months. Last Nov, my FIL change the direct deposit back to his bank. And now she plan B him !!!, no contact, no nothing. I could not function for couple hours, how deep of a fog she is in. Is her A is better than blood ?. I regreted I don't have ADD handy. I am fine now and I keep this in the journal that I will open up when I am in plan B. When you want to love someone, think a happy thought about them, when you want to hate someone, count the pain that they cause you. I will do a very short plan B and never look back. Enough my venting ... your post & nikko brought my smile back.Wow, s. rape & harboring Minor and her freinds have them in the house w/ little girls ?. I agree w/ you about freinds.Pregnant? - she could take a kit test to check. STD ? she should go to clinic to check. Use safe sex before the test result comes out.Hang in there for a few more days and you are still in 'coaster until the cow come home. (animal thing from rev's farm) I am glad that OM LB'ed and W see the love in you. Print out the questionairs and work from there ... but take it easy for few days, play catch up first. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img][ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

Redhat, <blockquote>quote:<hr> And now she plan B him !!!, no contact, no nothing. I could not function for couple hours, how deep of a fog she is in. Is her A is better than blood ?. <hr></blockquote>I don't know what to say, How can a person do that? I could never totally ignore my family, and neither could my W. That is such a shame. I want you to know, I feel for you, and you are always in my thoughts and prayers.Keep your chin up, better days will come soon. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Pregnant? - she could take a kit test to check. STD ? she should go to clinic to check. Use safe sex before the test result comes out.<hr></blockquote>It will happen that way. Test and more tests. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Hang in there for a few more days and you are still in 'coaster until the cow come home. (animal thing from rev's farm) I am glad that OM LB'ed and W see the love in you. Print out the questionairs and work from there ... but take it easy for few days, play catch up first. <hr></blockquote>Hopefully, this coaster will end soon. You talk with rev too much. lol. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I recently went to the bookstore and bought 5 steps to romantic love : a workbook for readers of HNHN and LB. It has alot more in it than just the questionnaires, well, having some "spare" time at home, I copied and printed out the entire book in Ms Word. First week or two, will be catching up time, talking discussing, reassuring, then we will slowly introduce the MB concepts. That is my current plan. Once we get some $$$ around here, I am going to ask W if she would like to do C with the Harleys, we'll see what she says.Forgot to add one thing yesterday, OM wont let W read HNHN, she said she's tried to read it, and every time he takes it away from her. WTF is that about? (Scacerd she might "learn" what she needs? Bad news buddy, she has figured it out on her own.)[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
.... Once we get some $$$ around here, I am going to ask W if she would like to do C with the Harleys, we'll see what she says.<hr></blockquote>
Actually you could do MB by yourself, it is no brainer and try it for a few weeks and see if you are stuck somewhere before spending $$. Save your $$ for MB seminars, do it as part of getaway weekend in Florida or somewhere nice [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Actually you could do MB by yourself, it is no brainer and try it for a few weeks and see if you are stuck somewhere before spending $$. <hr></blockquote>We are going to try on our own, but W doesn't think we can, so if we run into things we can't handle or can't deal with, then I'll call the Harleys. (guess I should have specified that) <blockquote>quote:<hr> Save your $$ for MB seminars, do it as part of getaway weekend in Florida or somewhere nice . <hr></blockquote>It would be great to go to one, W and I would definately enjoy, going to Fl, or somewhere. Just to get awy from all of OH, just for a weekend.BTW - In less than 24 Hours OM is going back to NY for good. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I can't wait for him to leave, now maybe W and I can work on this M. My goals: To satisfy all of W needs based on MB logic. To Live our M by the MB way. To make our M more "Godly" (Going to church, living M His way, ect.) and To ultimately make our M 100% better than it was before A.I think those are attainable goals.W mentioned to me, she wants us to go back to how we were in the beginning of our relationship, (dating, me paying total attention to her, essentially worshipping her like I used to.) she says she was happy then ,and wants to be happy like that again. I think using MB logic, I can meet her needs, and make her as happy, if not happier than she was. What do you think? Worthy goals? It is DEFINATELY worth it to me to try my best.

T,....worthy goals would be both of you treating the other right. Not one sided. You should not be worshipping her. You and her should work together and compliment her. She is not your queen and you her slave. To attain lasting happiness means to put the others interests ahead of our own. Providing those interests are for the well fare of your family. That would prevent selfish acts. I hope this works out for the both of you. I am glad the OM will be gone soon, he sounds like nothing but trouble. Take care,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> worthy goals would be both of you treating the other right. Not one sided. You should not be worshipping her. You and her should work together and compliment her. She is not your queen and you her slave. To attain lasting happiness means to put the others interests ahead of our own. Providing those interests are for the well fare of your family. That would prevent selfish acts.
<hr></blockquote>I can only comment on my goals at this point, We still have much to discuss, and therefore I cannot "assume" any goal of her.I do worship her like a queen, but I am not a slave to her, I think of us as equals 50/50 in this M, But I love her to the point of worshipping her.(not literally of course) Just, I like to but her things now and then, and I try to put her feeling ahead of mine, but now I see, it has to be 50/50 (Eg POJA).She still wants a "family" and I do as well, but that will come in time, I want to be the "best" husband and someday the "best" father I can be.I think our big problem is when we first got together, I spoiled her, I mean I bought her anything and everything I could, and she still carries that somewhat to this day. (She said OM even commented on it)and sometimes it is a problem, but she understands that if we have no extra $$$ we have no extra $$$. <blockquote>quote:<hr> hope this works out for the both of you. I am glad the OM will be gone soon, he sounds like nothing but trouble. <hr></blockquote>I hope so too O, I hope so too... Only time will tell. and hopefully in a week or two, she might start posting, I think it would be a great help to her.(As long as she doesn't read my post. lol.)I am counting the hours til' he leaves.God bless.P.s. - If everthing else isn't bad enough, OM aske W to marry him. Can you F*&%ing believe that? (W of course told him no.) Is he insane?[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
I ditto Orchid ... equal half not a better half. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I completely understand. 50/50, Equals.

Well, just got off the phone with W, OM is on a bus back to NY. I called her to offer comfort to her, as I knew she would be hurting and crying. She loves him but is not "in love" with him, and I know it hurts her terribly to let him go. W told me she wanted to get on the bus and go with him, but she didn't because of me. She has yet to tell him it's over, and will tell him tomorrow when he phones.(she can't tell him to his face, just like she couldn't tell me to my face about A). I only hopes she WILL tell him, she has promised me to tell him no contact ever, and I think she understands why.As much as it pains me to hear about it, I told W to talk to me about how she feels.(Because it hurts worse to know she is hurting than it is to hear about OM).She is being totally open and honest with me now, and I respect that. She said to give her a day or two to stop crying and then we can begin to work on M. I agreed.Quick question, how long does withdrawl usually last?I remember reading in either HNHN or SAA that recovery can only take place after withdrawl is over.So she said to give her a few hours alone and that she would call me back(around 10:00-11:00). and if I wanted I could come and visit her for a few hours.(I don't mind offering her some comfort), So I told her I would very much like that, and she said OK.I told her how much I love her, and she told me too.So ,now begins the next rollercoaster.I'm ready for it. (I think...)P.s. W is going to be on MB now, Hope she reads this. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Hi Love.[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Torizo,
Withdrawal will take some time depends on the individual and how A ends. If she could remember all the bad thing that OM has and count the good thing w/ you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , it will help a lot.She is lucky to have you and you feel lucky to have her, now it is up to her.Yes, in order to be in recovery, A has to die, no contact, pass withdrawal. This is the end of the 'coaster ride. The new beginning is walking the narrow path of recovery. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

<blockquote>quote:<hr> She is lucky to have you and you feel lucky to have her, now it is up to her. <hr></blockquote>I know how lucky I am, I count my blessing every night, to have met someone so wonderful. I love her with all my heart and soul.And I know I want to be with her always. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Yes, in order to be in recovery, A has to die, no contact, pass withdrawal. This is the end of the 'coaster ride. <hr></blockquote>Time... <blockquote>quote:<hr> The new beginning is walking the narrow path of recovery. <hr></blockquote>And hopefully the way to a far better M than the one we left behind.
BTW - W now reading Boards, she is lurking somewhere...I think there is alot of information that will help her, as it has helped me.

Torizo,I have no doubt that the two of you will be able to have fullfilling M. All you have to do is follow the 4 gifts of love.Mrs Torizo,
Welcome to MB. Here is a good link to read. Then read this link before you call you H. Hope you could build a much fullfilling M w/ your love one.God Bless both of you.

T,I gotta hand it to you, your paitiance and prayers payed off. I suggest that you read HNHN together with her form begining to end. We did this and it really helped. As far as her comming to MB, I have to warn you about somthing. I too encuraged my WS to come here and at first she liked it and did get alot of help espesialy from JustLearning (that guy is awsome!) But in no time at all, she came here to vent as she was going through withdrawls and she got FLAMED big time, this hurt her bad, she has never been back since.. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] It seems that alot of us BS don't have much simpathy for WS that are still in the fog, she now thinks that this is only a place for BS's. So you might tell her up front that she will have to weed out some of the posts that don't help her and look for the good ones. I always take note on the number of posts a member has to get an idea as to there experiance. When you see posts in the thousands, those are definatly the big guns worth listening to.
Keep up the good work....SH

Very true SH, I will warn her.Also if you,read this SH, I need to ask you something, but not on the boards, can you email me, So I can mail you?Thanks in advance.Torizo@hotmail.com

My W has posted under EN, her name is lostwife. The post title is : Lost and confused, God please help me.Thank you all for supporting me through this all. I'm eternally in your debt. But now My hardest part is over, and hers is just beginning, I know you all will show her the same amazing support you have shown me.And I would like to thank you in advance.
Justin.[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

Just got back from dinner with my W. We had a good time, she was very tired though, she only got 2-3 hours of sleep.We talked, and talked, about us, fears, ect.Then it was time for her to go home, she wanted to sleep, so I took her home.She thanked me for taking her to dinner, and she said she had a wonderful time, in fact it went better than she expected.(she expected we'd fight about someting)Then we said our goodbyes, and just befor she closed the car door, A wave of utter sadness came over me, I tried not to show it, but she saw it, she said don't give me that depressed face. I explained to her, how much it hurts to just leave her there, and how much I hate to be apart from her.She asked me to be patient and wait a little longer, and she'd be home soon. (Her exact words were, You have waited two months, can you just give me a week or so more? I of course said I would, we said our I love you's, and she said we could get together tomorrow if I'd like. and we said goodbye. (I watched her walk in the door, and said to myself, I am truly the luckiest man on earth to have a W like her).She still has yet to tell OM,(She was sleeping when he called today) she said she WILL cal him, but doesn't know how to tell him,(I suggested some things from SAA)but of course it is her decision what to say.(She knows no contact ever). I just hope she has the strength in her to tell him, and not just "beat around the bush" about it...Until she tells him, we can't move forward.But I did enjoy our time spent together(I cherish every second spent with her), and we did have a good day, no LB, a couple minor disagreements, but no LB. I am trying to apply MB concepts to everything we do together. Today went well.Possibility of seeing LotR tomorrow(3x for me)if W feels like it.[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]

T,Good for you!! All I can say is....
"time and patience." This is JustLearnings most common phrase and it took some time for me to see how true that statment really is.
I trully belive your prayers are being answerd. The Bible says "the prayer of a rightous man is powerful and effective." And you my friend are truly becoming a rightous man and your wife will and is seeing that in you.
Keep your head high and continue to pray.God Bless,SH

Thank you SH, I have been blessed, to have this awakening to what I have neglected to do for my W, Though it is the worst hurt in my life, it is also a great gift from God, I say that because I realize what I have to do because of it.I want my M to work, and I want to be closer to God, than I have been in the past.Through som extraordinary circumstances, I truly believe in Him.I have the desire in me to be the best husband and friend to my wife I can be, and with God's grace, I will be.I think it all going to be all right...I hope.

Torizo,Check Guido post ... another cow comes home, not to disrespect but borrowing rev's animal thing. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Todays Update: Well, W did it, she called OM to tell him it's over. She is not handling it so well(Worse than I expected, even for her).We went to dinner again, (No LotR tonight) and then we went to the new planetarium in cleveland(but it was closed) so we rented a movie from blockbuster, and came "home" and laid on the couch and watched it.After the movie it was time for W to go "home". So I dropped her off and came "home".I called W when I got "home"(She wanted me to). and we talked for a while. OM was calling her "home" the entire time we were talking. BTW - Now he calls my "home" in hopes W is here. I personally have nothing I would like to say to him, and there's nothing I want to hear from him. He needs to get the hint: No contact, means no contact.(On top of that, I answered when he called, and he hung up on me, F*&#er. If you have something to say, then be a man and say it, don't just hang up.)I asked W if she was "uncomfortable" when we were watching a movie, and she said a little, She said because she has thoughts of OM in her head, and she's next to me.She doesn't know how to forgive herself. and I believe that is a factor in our "progress".W also posed the question, What if She "breaks down" and calls or talks to OM? So I explained If she does, it will "reset" her clock for withdrawl, and she will have to start all over.And oif that happens, I fear it will hurt "us" more. I also explained if they see each other again, Then our M is finished. I will not hold on and fight, If I'm the only one fighting...I have held on this long, and trusted this much, and for them to see each other again would push it too far.Yes I "put up" with A, Yes I "put up" with dishonesty, But it cant ever happen again, at least not if she hopes I will trust her again.I gave her some MB stuff today, and asked her to read them.(POJA, 4 Rules, Maritial Recovery Agreement, Ect.) I hope she reads them.Tomorrow, We are supposed to go out again... We'll see how she feels.
RH,I checked out Guido's post, thats great news. I am truly happy for them. (now if only my W comes home) I know she will in time, and I'm trying not to push it.But it's hard not to... You of course understand.I think in light of everything, We had a good day, and no LB. Trying to meet her ENs based on her ENQ almost 2 months ago. We need to fill out new ones.

Torizo,Good work Torizo, a true MB'er. Set the boundry, it is not an LB, it is fact and it is not a threat since the control is on her hand, not yours. Also there is no new reason to but her character if she repeats.Take it easy and take it one day at a time. One question, when she will be back home ?. Withdrawal should be done w/ love one not the reverse.

She is still unsure of when she is coming home, we are trying for friday, but I don't know if she will be home then. I hope it is friday, but only she can say when.I want her home and in my arms, I want to help her with what she is struggling through, I think it would help her. But she does not think the same as I do. She is still unsure of alot of things.Day by day, we get better...yet there is still much ahead of us.

Hang in there T, keep praying. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]

To everyone on this thread who is posting on Lost Wife's thread in EN, hi
I have a fear that we may take things that Torizo has discussed her and apply them too literally over there. ex discussing OM's PO.
On her thread, if we are going to be able to help her, we need to show empathy with her.
Torizo is doing a great job of no lb'ing. Don't let us do it for him by association.[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: olderandwiser ][ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]

Sorry I haven't been around,W has been here, and we have been going out to places during the day, and just spending time together any other time.Update : Where do I begin? This week we have been together every day so far. Monday : Dinner & blockbuster, Tuesday Dinner, Wednesday she stayed the night (her friends were off work) First SF. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Thursday she stayed the night again SF Again. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (OM called at 2:30am asking for W, I told him she was sleeping, he said to wake her up, and I told hime no, please don't call agin, he kept calling, and after 5 repeat calls or so, I unplugged the phone.) Today (Friday) W is having a hard time dealing with missing him, I don't know if she is staying tonight or not. (She doesn't know.)More updates to come.How is everyone else doing?

Torizo,Orchid & I were wondering a bit but I told her that you will post if thing going south and since you have not ... I figure you were with W and playing catch up [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Guido is also the same thing. Don't feel sorry, as long as you let us know that you & W are ok. We are happy for you.We are trying to help rev and squirt now.Change your phone# to unlisted, get caller ID, block his number too. Take it easy and walk down that edgewater park would you ?. I miss that park. Hey, how is your job search ?. Except that you really low on cash I think both of you need the time together. Don't spend too much on MB & update us once in a while.God Bless you & your W.

We are doing ok. Job search is still on, not too bad on cash though, Unemployment check came, first three weeks. so we are ok on cash, interview on monday, at a cable tv installation company.Update : Yesterday, we went to dinner and saw LotR, she liked it, and she spent the night again (no SF [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] )W decided this morning to stay here permanently, no more staying at friend's house.
She is on her way now to pick up clothes and tell her friend.(Talk about trust, she has car and is by herself. She said she neede some "alone" time, So I will trust her) and we are going to pick up the rest of her stuff next week.She is having a hard time though, and I'm trying to be here for her. She can't get OM out of her thoughts, and she has this NEED to call OM and hear his voice as well as tell him she's fine and find out how he is. But so far she hasn't contacted him.For which I'm proud of her.We discussed going to the doctors for anti-deps, and I told her if she feels she needs them, we will get them.(Still undecided)I'm hanging on, though sometimes it's hard, I want to make this work, and intend to do so.LB Free for this entire week!!!Advice / Suggestions ?BTW - What is going on with everone else?

Hi T,It sure is good to hear that things are looking up!! You are doing a great job. Its funny how easy it gets to not LB. After awhile it seems to be automatic. I'll be prayin for ya...SH

Torizo,Get the ADD anyway, just incase. She could decide later if she want to take it but be ready. Be patience, there are more peaks and valleys of "missing OM". It will get easier w/ time and ADD will help during the peak. However, get busy ... do thing together and don't idle at home. Go to Rock 'N Roll Hall of fame, go to Museum at University Cicle, go and spend time together.Nothing much on my M, still in limbo. I will have to talk to SH next Thursday, lots of questions about MB. I am reading olgjmj's post ... wow !!! Talking about fog and she is still in it and posting @gloryb. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] .

Still hanging on...W received two cards from OM yeserday @ friend's house. I think it helped her, at least she knows OM is OK, He is staying with his mom right now, so he has someone to talk to, and someone to help him through this.We are doing ok, she still misses him, but she is better today than the last.We are spending the day @ home, and later going grocery shopping.W is starting to "let me in" more and more, and I feel our intamacy is beginning to be rebuilt.There is a small trust issue, and I'm surprised at how much I do trust her, But I believe she is telling the truth when I ask her things.I do not know if her LB$ is open, but I think it's becoming open, she is starting to smile, and I think she is shocked by the amount of affection I'm trying to show her.Our journey is just beginning, but it is starting out in the right direction. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Dear T and Mrs T, I don't want to say LW anymore, hope that's ok. I like Mrs. T better!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] You make my heart happy today. I am glad to see progress. Don't take large leaps just small steps. Remember slo and steady!!! One of the things about a marriage which shows it is more than just a piece of paper is the relationship or bond that does exist. Many lose sight of that bond and only see it surface in difficult times. You have both seen that happen in your lives and many others (MB is a real eye opener in that regard). Can the bond be broken? Yes it can but it is not as easy as just having an A. I hope you both find that out soon. Whether you have children or not the marriage bond is there and real. In fact the Bible says that when God is in a marriage it is like a 3 fold cord, one that is not easily broken. Lots of sound counsel/advice in the Bible. Wish more of us would take it to heart. Hope you both have a nice weekend. Hugz to you both. L.

Hi everyone, I'm sorry I haven't been on in awhile, just keeping busy with W.We are doing OK, W still goes through missing OM, but It seems like it's getting easier for her. No contact that I know of,(W is being totally honest with me) Very few LB, and now rapidly depositing LB$. I asked her if I am meeting all of her needs, and she said yes, there is nothing she would change.(Though she fears in 6-12 months, we will be back to how we were before A) I don't think so. and she is meeting 90% of my needs. Update on job : Classroom training for cable installation starting monday, week after Cable tv tech.How is everone else doing?Thank you to all who have helped us to this point, I am eternally grateful to you.

Torizo,Honestly, I was actually worry everytime I saw this thread get updated ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . I would say ... T could be in trouble. Now I am gald to see both of you starting nicely in withdrawal. Once OM is distance memory, your recovery will be in high gear.I didn't see your post about accepting the job. Did you get hire ? ...In general, I do not know how I could keep going but I am fine (denial, acceptance, settleing ??). Next 2 weeks will be a slow weeks for me in MB, I do not want my WW know that I am still posting in MB. She says she will be home more, we are stuck with one car. Either way I am ready, she is in control and wonder how OM will LB'ed.Hang in there T, your M will only get better. Hang out w/ your mrs. T (24x7), we will be fine, there are a lot of support in here.

About the job, Telecom. Company called this morning (Had interview on monday) Asked me if I was still interested in the job, I told them yes, and they said for me to go to classroom training on monday(2/4/02) So, It looks like I have the job(subcontractor for Adelphia communications, installing Cable TV in customers houses, as well as cable modems.)Not the highest pay, but it will do for now.As for me and Mrs., we are doing ok, still a little bumpy, but ok. No fights, very few LB(if any) and we are meeting each others needs.

Yeah Mr and Mrs T!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks for giving a positive report. I am smiling now. This is a vast improvement from earlier today (Qtr end deadlines......I now know why they are called 'dead' lines - LOL!! ) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Take Care,
L.

T,Sure is good to hear that things are looking up!!
I think its true, "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:16Ooops [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I didn't mean to use the J word. Sorry. The book of "Matthew" was a sore spot for me. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But I got over it... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] SH

Hi all. Some bad news......Things were going great, no LBs no arguements, meeting each others ENs. And then.....Well, to make a long story short, I installed software to "keep track" of all activity on the computer(Trust issue, LB I know) And today I found out OM and W talked today(Gee, imagine that, our first day apart, because I go to work and they talk. Ironic isn't it?) and she writes him saying how she misses him and loves him, as well as wants to be there to see him, yada yada yada. So I confront W about it (BTW - She is at friend's house spending the night, she decided before I even found out) and she says she couldn't stop talking to him(Via IM) and she was caught in "a moment of weakness". So I plainly told her, I know I have done all I could to save our marriage, (Including meeting ALL her needs), and if she wants to truly save our M, she will not contact him, And if she does our M WILL be over, I will NOT stand for this. She said she would write OM a "no-contact" email tomorrow (This is the 2nd one) when she gets home (With me reading it first).Am I "Right" or "wrong" in thinking the way I do?What do you all think?

T, It's been awhile my friend. I thought that no news was good news. It sounds like you have been doing good. Don't let this bump in the road completly derail all your progress. I think its good that she understands what she did was a mistake. It also sounds like she knows that she is doing the right thing by rewriting the no contact letter. I think you should tell her that you understand how she feels and this is not easy for her. She is still going through withdrawls, be patiant with her. Continue to show her love and make her feel good when she is home with you. You are still in plan A. Hang tight.SH

Torizo,
You do the right thing. If W doesn't do it then you have to go to plan B, otherwise you are in plan A. There is a diferent between being a doormat and doing plan A. Boundry that agreed upon should not be crossed. You were a doormat before since there is no agreement between you two. This time is different, it is a boundry that you two set. Sorry to hear this but as long as she is willing to work on her weakness it should be fine. Get the med. for her to help her out. Her withdrawal clock is back to zero.
Get her to post to her thread ... there are many WS will be able to help her out.Hang in there T.

T,I remember when we were in the begining stages of recovery, her w/drawl took some time. Also she to slipped a couple of times in the begining, this is why I said to be patiant with her. This is not at all easy for her as I am sure you know. As time went on it did get to the point were she could honestly say that she was over him. It also became more and more evident that what she was saying was true.
Deep down I think your wife knows that she is doing the right thing by staying with you. I also think that you can have a heart to heart talk with her and ask her to be radically honest with you from now on. Telling her that you would want to know if she is having these feelings like she is going to slip and make contact with him. Also ask her to tell you right away if he trys or does make contact with her. Talk about the what if's. Thats what we did and it helped us. Every once in a while I would bring the subject up and I would ask her if she is still holding her promise. I could hear it in her voice and see it in her eyes that she was being honest and sencere with me. JMHOSH

Small steps T. Remember that. The OM was and still is a strong draw. She has to see what the rest of us are already seeing. OM without the fog. Regression is to be expected in recovery. You do need to show that respect is a requirement. If she needs to have contact with OM, respect for you would be with you present. I gave H that option. He took me up on it at first and now from what I know there is no contact. Those first few contacts really hurt. My recovery supposedly started last April but really didn't start until Sept. Arrrghhh... never thought I'd start recovery, in fact I don't claim to have it ......yet. Tell her what is important. 1 at a time. Respect is a good one to start with. JMHO.
L.

T,I am fairly new around here and I just wanted to let you know that I was inspired by the progress made throughout this discussion topic. I see similarities with my situation and the advice given by everyone has helped me as well. IMHO, I think that there will probably be roadbumps, but don't give up. I can see that much progress has been made in your situation and I am still encouraged by your story. Hang in there, I'm praying for you!!

T,
No news is good news!!!!
If you happen to pop in I would like to offer you a word of encouragement. I am so happy now in my new relationship with my wife. Its funny how God works. I look back now at what happend to us and I take a good look at who I am now compared to the man I used to be and I can't believe that I was so blind. I can't imagine returning to the old me. I am such a better person now and loving it. I know that you too will forever be a better person, a man that God had in mind in the first place.
Take good care of your dear wife now, love her and cherish her like Christ loves and charishes his church. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] SH

Hello Everyone!!! It's been awhile since my last posting. Me and my W are doing GREAT!!!She still thinks of OM, but not nearly as much as she used to. The quality of our M has improved dramatically since last posting.New job is going good.(Cable TV Technician)How is everyone else doing?P.S. Thank you all for your support. I am eternally grateful (and then some) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Torizo,Good to hear from you and don't worry about us, go back to your honeymoon [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Happy to hear you get the job, glad to see good thing happens to good people. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .

Greetings All. How is everyone doing? Me? Not so good...Minor Update: Just found out that W is STILL talking to OM, Online Via IM. She says she can't talk to him on the phone (hurts too much), but when she is talking online it is not as hard (or something). So... Now we are trying to see eye to eye, and she has once again said she wil stay off the PC and not speak to him anymore (third time of hearing that...)Any advice??????

Torizo,Give her time and help her to protect her weakness. Do POJA to stay off PC ... you have come a long way, do not throw it away. How do you spend time w/ W ?, >15H/week ?, does she fillin your ENs ? what is her words on your effort to fillin her ENs ?, any LB check up on both ends ? (beside the big one on crossing no contact the 3rd time) ... recovery take time.

Torizo, Please try to remember that he is an addiction. I know, I had my own. Like any addiction it is very hard to quit cold turkey. If she's trying then that is what is important right now. Good luck and God Bless.

Hiya T,Sorry to hear of the temporary setback. But we did talk about these things happening remember!??!!? Now what are you going to do? Or what are you able to do? Hm......... ponder that and let us know. The real answer is _ _ _ _ _ _ _. You can buy up to 2 vowels. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Update: We have POJA'd for her to stay off PC (She offered first), We spend 20+ Hrs. Undivided Attention Weekly, W is filling EN's for me (Except SF, But she has never been a really Sexual person), W says (in her words) that I'm meeting all of her EN's except for her need to talk to OM (which isn't a(n) EN in my eyes).NO LB's (that I can think of).So now I am going to continue to take it day by day, and continue to meet her EN's.Today she Talked to OM on phone, and told him again No Contact. (After I explained to her how she was leading him on)(male mind thing) You all understand... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr> The real answer is _ _ _ _ _ _ _. You can buy up to 2 vowels. <hr></blockquote>It's been awhile Orchid, I think I'm getting rusty at the venusian logic thing... But...I'd like to buy an A and an E...

Torizo,Glad you are doing good. You are not the only one could not guess Orchid's ... [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] . Do you ever find out what your W and OM talk about ?. Is it about nothing ... points to conversations en ... or affections ?. Nothing to worry but just to see if you miss anything.

T,U are doing good. Keep up the good work. Meeting most of her needs? She may not realize what they all are yet anyway. No panic, it'll come. Now as for that word...... A & E....Nope both wrong. BOING!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I will have to think of what you owe me. Hm.....U owe us a 'smile'. Tell your W she has to be the one to make U smile and we need confirmation of that. Don't play too hard to get..... he he he. Com' on RH, U can do better than that. Read the sentence again. L.

W says she would like to keep him as a friend, though she now understands why she cannot. As for their conversations, they just talk and BS mostly, and OM tries to tell her how he misses her, and loves her, and wishes they could be together. But W tells me that she truly wants to be here with me, but has a need to talk to him as a friend.(She says he is easier to talk to than me) but she has agreed to open up to me more (Back to that time issue [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ).So that is what is happening...O, Can I buy an O & I ?

Keep us posted Torizo!!!
You give me hope. Please let us know how things are going! Also i am still trying to find out Orchid's secret answer.
Forgiver

Ok T, You got your vowels, now what is the word?Ques: What should you do? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] _ O _ _ I _ _ ! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

L. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Heh .. heh ... that word is hard for me and I even told SH that I will have a problem down the road b/c of WS attitude.

Ooh I got it! I got it!
Thanks Orchid!!
Forgiver

Can I get another clue O?Update: W and me are doing "fine". No contact between her and OM (As far as I know) since last time. Still spending 20+ hours a week together. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] We are doing good now.Job is going well, not the greatest pay, but enough to get by. W is currently looking for a job too.Anything new with all of you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Orchid:
Ok T, You got your vowels, now what is the word?Ques: What should you do? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] _ O _ _ I _ _ ! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

L. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>T, Glad to hear good news!!! Please say Hi to your W for us. Now, try it again.......you want a hint? It is all or _ O_ _ I _ _ ! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] 
L.[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

T and Orchid, Glad to hear things are going well. you give me hope. Two words can fit in that blank. Be careful.
Forviver

T, gald to see your post ... I sit. is not good but I am fine ... I know I would not given pain beyond my treshold. I won't bother you for now ... just enjoy your honeymoon [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . I will probably need those word badly and I don't know if I even can. -RH-

O, It's NOTHING. Right?Redhat, I'm sorry things are not "well" with you, I wish I could offer some advice, but all I can come up with is: "Hang in there, it will get better soon".I want to thank you all, for still being here, and I wish you all the best, I will check in from time to time.God Bless.

Ok T, you got it but 14 days!??!?! Hm......wonder what kind of prize can I give for that?!!! Oh well if you are happy, you already have your prize..... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] For a long time, we had to just do nothing.....now you are busy doing something. Have fun!Take care,
L.

Hello All, It's been awhile since I last posted... Just thought I'd pop in for an update.Well thing are still going good between me and my wife. We still argue here and there, but we have worked through much of the past, and look happily towards the future.So, how is everyone else? Redhat, Orchid, stillhurts, and the others.

Torizo,It is good to hear from you. You and your W together? Good! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] U both make this ol' lady very happy. Now about the fighting piece..... hm.... let's see. ok fight and look in the mirror so you can see what the other person is seeing in you. K? Very awkward and meant to be uncomfortable but funny. Maybe you will be laughing sooo hard when you see what you look like mad, you will forget what you are fighting about!!! Ok, so I didn't get my psycology degree, but it might be a new technique? I have used it on myself and other family members. It works!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] As for us, we are doing ok. PBR called tonight out of the blue?!?!?! Not sure. Sure did make the H mad. He forgot some of his stuff to take on his trip. Nothing major just necessities. He said it was because of those 2 stupid calls and kept telling me that he has not spoken to her in a long time. Well that could be 2 minutes or 2 months. U never know in the fog. It seems like she had not talked to him in a while because she kept asking if she could talk to him. Oh well. More babble. I just gave him that 'look' (not of love but of disappointment). He felt it to the bone!!!! Kinda chilling actually. Think I'll try out for the BS part when they turn JD's book into a movie. LOL!!! : [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] take care,
L.

T .... Glad to hear from you. This is great !. stick w/ 4 gifts of love you two will be fine [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .I am here surviving. My WW wants OM soo bad that she bribed him w/ sex and lured him w/ money. She will have $ this week to burn. I want nothing to do with it. I came to accept that my best wasn't good enough for her and I did gave my very best (SH counseled me all the way). I dusted all my pain and whatever love I had left for her and started to move toward the future. I am busy w/ my 2D, Regional competition is 10 days away and National competition is 35 days away. Our property is sold and I have to look for a property to avoid cap-gain tax in 45 days & close in 180 days. I will have my sabatical by then, 6 weeks wondering around w/ my 2 D [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Hey, I post my pic & my 2 D ... check faith1 thread on MB-photo album.-RH-

T,
Good to you hear from you my friend!!! I think of you often. Glad to hear that things are still looking up for you!! Rememeber that in so many ways, we have to give to receive. Many times I forget to do little things that mean so much to my wife. Alot of little things often out weigh the big ones. Keep up the good work, it only gets better with time, patience and a giving heart.God Bless,
Stillhurts

Hello All, Just an update. Me and W are still together, we argue once in a while, but we are hanging on to one another. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Money is a little tight right now, (Company is doing cutbacks in hours and $$$) But other than that, we are doing good.

How about you all?

Mr & Mrs. T,

How nice to hear from you!!!! Well I can't speak for the entire board but as you can see there are many new names and stories here. Very painful. But some of us older ones are still here.

My personal status is that we are in recovery. Now other major family issues have arose (in-laws and such). We are working on all issues together. Not great yet but much improved than this time last year.

take care,
L.

Hi T ....

I use your post several times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ... to help other newbie. I am glad you are doing fine in recovery.

Here I moved to my new house .. w/o WW. She moved to hers ... w/ OM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I am ready to give my best to someone who will cherish & care about it. My M at the point of no return. I called my lawyer last week to get my status change !. I just learn that in CA ... after 6 months plus 1 day from the date she served me ... I could change my status regardless of the financial or coustody battle. I know you will be surprise why I did this ... my WW behavior is not only her head is in the fog but her heart is also. She brought my 2 D to OM's family & also bring OM to stay overnight around my 2 D. WH@T!@#$%^ !. I am not Dv neither OM at that point. I am glad she is plan B'ng me. Anyway, I am ok ... actually it helps me to move on & firm up my decision to plan C ... forever.

-RH-

Hi All, How is everyone?

Just thought I'd update. (Sad Update)

Today, W decided that she is not happy being with me, we discussed things and she decided it was best if we end our M. So that is that. Thank you all for your support, and much needed help through her A and our Recovery, but in the end it still came to be the same conclusion, M is over.

I guess I have failed, I tried so hard to make her happy, I tried my hardest, but still I am unable to save our M.

I will check back here in a week or so.

Goodbye Friends.

Dear Torizo,

I am sorry your W is coming to this conclusion. It does sort of bring back the d/d pain again doesn't it?!?!?

Torizo, you did not fail. You did not fail. What failed was your W's commitment to the M. The reflection is not on you, it is on her. She will have to take herself to the next level and determine whether she wants to be with herself as she has allowed herself to be. You have the option to be there or not.

For now, you will shed a few tears and know that our thoughts of care and personal recovery are with you. The loss T, will not be yours but hers.

WE will be here for you. Let us know how you are doing, ok?!??!

Hugz,
L.

Continuation of update...

W is living at F friend's house, She has all of her possessions there too, upon our [Last?] goodbye, she told me "There is no hurry to file for D" and I told her if she is sure of it that she should file. She says"She needs some time to herself to figure out what she wants out of life, and where she wants it to go" Does this make sense to anyone? Should not someone who is 28 more or less "know" what they want and need? I could be wrong though. any imput is welcome.

It has been more than 24 hours since we last spoke, and she said yesterday she would call me in a couple days to "Check" on me.

What should I do??? I know she is the one for me, and I know I only want her in my life...That is why this is so hard on me. I mean we have spent the last 5 1/2 years together 1 1/2 of that married.

Suggestions? Comments? all are welcome.

T,

Have you done 4 rules of recovery best you can ?. If the answer is yes then it is up to you to end your misery. IMVHO, she has unstable life she might have to "figure" out and "sort" out her problem. It has nothing to do with you.

I suggest you to snoop ... make sure OM is not back in the picture or worst there is OM#2. If there is betrayal after what you had done ... I would not take it and filed. Meanwhile do nothing ... there is no plan A or plan B. Wait for the truth comes out. Time will tell .

Get anti depressant asap, you need it. Try to be around people that loves you and get your support system going. If you need me to call you let me know.

-RH-

Thank you all for your support.

I talked to W today, she says she doesn't want to come home, ever... she says she feels, uptight, *****y, and annoyed for no apparent reason when she is around me, and she said she does not like herself when she is around me. (Is this some form of Fogese?) [Just checking]

so, I plainly told her, if she truly wants it this way, then so be it. I love her, and I really hate to lose 5+ years of time, and memories with her, but, I have no other choice... I guess it really is over , and I must move on...

I'll update if anything changes, good or bad. Until then... Thank you all for support through this, and God bless you all.

Hello All, How is everyone?

Latest Update...

I talked to W on 11/15/02 over dinner, and she now realizes it's over...She is with OM again, and contemplating going to NY (OM mom got W a place) but (here's the kicker) she (W) isn't sure if it is the "Right" thing to do at this time. She says she still loves me, but she is or has convinced herself that there is "nothing" we can do to save our M, I think that we "could" but I am forced to go with her Ideas. I am currently living with a long time friend (11 1/2 years) her H and their 3 kids. I was offerd a place during "hard times" and I am currently tring to save $$$ for a new place.

I know W still loves me, and I love her...Is there any chance of "bringing W around"? or is it truly over?

Opinions, suggestions, and comments welcome...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know W still loves me, and I love her...Is there any chance of "bringing W around"? or is it truly over?<hr /></blockquote>Not while she is in contact with OM.

As far as it being over, it depends on if and when the divorce gets finalized and she and OM marry.

I don't know about plan B considering that your love bank seems far from being in the red. So I guess if you are not ready to move on with your life, that you continue with plan A.

For what it's worth, now that she is living with OM, she's going to have to deal with the everyday reality of seeing him during his best and not so best times. Another thing is that in OM's mind he's finished with the conquest of your WW and like many, he'll start to rest on his laurels and he'll start to take off his mask of mr. wonderful and show his true colors to her. This could turn out to be a blessing in disguise but you are going to have to be very patient and learn to detach emotionally (separate her in your mind from her actions) from the situation.

When I was a kid, I used to be a candy junkie until a wise old aunt of mine gave me what I wanted, day in and day out, until I got so sick of sweets that just the sight of them caused me to have nauseous feelings. Even now, I can not consume the amount of sweets that I was able to prior to my aunt's candy overload. Your WW may also have to go thru her OM candy overload so that any feelings of love for him will be replaced with feelings of dread.

Hi T,

Looks like mixed signals are arising out of thin air???? Hm..... don't change your direction though. Otherwise she might think that you will settle for less.

The OM or no OM is her decision. If she really wants you, she should be willing to put forth the effort. U R worth it!

take care,
L.

T,

Focus on yourself and let her go like last time ... o'k ?. Get busy with finding $$$ for your place, get training and be agressive/reponsive in your work place. Again don't call unless she calls, don't plead but don't say anything that you are not planning to see it through ... hold your LB. This time around if she comes around again, you should hold the bar a bit higher and let her shows it to you. What are her complaints about you ? could you give us the detail ?.

-rh-

hi torizo--

I just starting coming to this site a few days ago and over these past few days wound up reading all 24 pages of whats been going on with you for the past year. I just wanted to tell you that I'm sorry your situation is the way it is now. It looks to me like you have done everything you should have and you should be proud of yourself for giving it your best so far. I myself am just starting out on the roller coaster and plan Aing for all I'm worth. I hope everything works out for you--good luck and take care.

hello all, thank you for your support (as always).

I would LIKE to "fix" things with W, but have realized that it is in fact over. I am perfectly ready to "move on" with my life, even though I still love her. She is "pushing" for D, and that is fine, I told her they will be filed by the end of the year. She also tells me, that she is unsure of her decision, but she has to find out if there is "something else" for her in this world. I accept this totally, and that is why I am moving forward. and who knows what the future holds???

Thank you all once again...

Well all, just a quick update... W is now in NY w/OM. The D papers will be sent out to her this month. It is "over" for "us". but on the positive note... we will still be friends, and talk once in awhile.

Thank you all for your support over the past year, if not for all of you, I don't know where I would be today. I can at least say I tried, and now can close this chapter of my life, and move on to another.

I wish everyone the best of luck, and will be around periodically to check on you all. Thank you again...

If you would like to contact me further:

Email: Torizo@hotmail.com or Darktorizo@yahoo.com
IM: same as above via MSN/Windows messenger or via Yahoo messenger.

God Bless you all.

Long Time no see to all you wonderful people (You know who you are <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) I thought I would let everyone know how I am doing.

Update: ExW is living in NY still (She is unhappy and calls me every once in awhile)

New Spouse (GF) and I have been together for 2 years now. (She is an old "friend" of mine), we grew up together, and have known each other for nearly 13 years now. She has 3 kids from previous marriage. And things are going great.

Well that is my update. Hope to see you all soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ February 06, 2005, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Torizo ]